Train Text Classification Model and Save to Mlflow

I) Train Model

import sklearn
from sklearn.feature_extraction.text import TfidfVectorizer
from sklearn.base import BaseEstimator, TransformerMixin
from sklearn.svm import LinearSVC
from bs4 import BeautifulSoup
import re
import numpy as np

from nltk.stem import WordNetLemmatizer
from nltk.corpus import stopwords, wordnet
import nltk
nltk.download('averaged_perceptron_tagger')
nltk.download('wordnet')
nltk.download('stopwords')
nltk.download('omw')

[nltk_data] Downloading package averaged_perceptron_tagger to
[nltk_data]     /Users/christian/nltk_data...
[nltk_data]   Package averaged_perceptron_tagger is already up-to-
[nltk_data]       date!
[nltk_data] Downloading package wordnet to
[nltk_data]     /Users/christian/nltk_data...
[nltk_data]   Package wordnet is already up-to-date!
[nltk_data] Downloading package stopwords to
[nltk_data]     /Users/christian/nltk_data...
[nltk_data]   Unzipping corpora/stopwords.zip.
[nltk_data] Downloading package omw to /Users/christian/nltk_data...
[nltk_data]   Package omw is already up-to-date!

True

from sklearn.datasets import fetch_20newsgroups

# sklearn transformer for pipeline
class peprocessor(BaseEstimator, TransformerMixin):
    
    """text preprocessor"""

    def __init__(self):
        self.lemmatizer = WordNetLemmatizer()
        self.nltk_stopwords = stopwords.words('english')

    def nltk_tag_to_wordnet_tag(self, nltk_tag):
        if nltk_tag.startswith('J'):
            return wordnet.ADJ
        elif nltk_tag.startswith('V'):
            return wordnet.VERB
        elif nltk_tag.startswith('N'):
            return wordnet.NOUN
        elif nltk_tag.startswith('R'):
            return wordnet.ADV
        else:          
            return wordnet.NOUN

    def remove_html_tags(self, text):
        soup = BeautifulSoup(text, "html.parser")
        removed_html_text = soup.get_text()
        return removed_html_text

    def remove_special_chars(self, text):

        pattern = r'[^a-zA-z0-9\s]'
        text = re.sub(pattern, '', text)
        text = re.sub(r'[\x00-\x08\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x1f\x7f-\xff]', '', text)
        return text

    def preprocess_doc(self, text):
        
        print('preprocess doc ', text)

        assert type(text) == str

        text = text.replace(r'\n',' ')

        text = self.remove_html_tags(text)

        text = self.remove_special_chars(text)
        print("after prepro ", text)

        if len(text.split()) < 5:
            return np.nan

        # tokenize the sentence and find the POS tag for each token
        nltk_tagged = nltk.pos_tag(nltk.word_tokenize(text))
        
        # tuple of (token, wordnet_tag)
        wordnet_tagged = map(lambda x: (x[0], self.nltk_tag_to_wordnet_tag(
                    x[1])), nltk_tagged)    
        lemmas = [self.lemmatizer.lemmatize(word, tag) for word, tag in \
                wordnet_tagged if not word in self.nltk_stopwords]
        
        return lemmas

    def transform(self, X, y=None):
        return [self.preprocess_doc(text) for text in X]
    def fit(self, X, y=None):
        return self    

preproc = peprocessor()

Data Prep

newsgroups_train = fetch_20newsgroups(subset='train', categories=['alt.atheism', 'sci.space'],
                                     random_state=42)

X = newsgroups_train.data
y = newsgroups_train.target

X[0]

'From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)\nSubject: Re: Not the Omni!\nNntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu\nOrganization: Okcforum Unix Users Group\nX-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]\nLines: 18\n\nCharley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:\n: \n: >> Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory?\n: \n: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules\n: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed\n: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts\n: >the rules of nature.\n: \n: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.\n\nWhen you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;\ncertainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of\nnature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but\nactually cause it. If that\'s what you mean I\'d like to hear your\nfurther thoughts on the question.\n\nBill\n'

y[0]

0

len(X), len(y)

(1073, 1073)

Feature Engineering

Create tokens in prepro step, hence pass tokens to tfidf vect.

X_prepro = [preproc.preprocess_doc(text) for text in X]

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18

Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
: 
: >> Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory?
: 
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
: 
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.

When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18

Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
 
  Please enlighten me  How is omnipotence contradictory
 
 By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
 of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
 in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
 the rules of nature
 
 Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules

When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question

Bill

preprocess doc  From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29

In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov 
(Ron Baalke) writes:

>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
>                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
>                            April 16, 1993
>
>
>2.  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?

>4.  On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??

BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)

ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
 
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|

after prepro  From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update  041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29

In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov 
Ron Baalke writes

Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16 1993


2  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it

4  On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on 

BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding 

ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
 
 

      JHWITTENCSRUUNL            
Jurriaan Wittenberg  Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
>>of a private Titan pad? 
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development.  If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans.  It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.

Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins. 

Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.  

You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun.  And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO. 

Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment?  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...




    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad 

Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development  If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway

Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans  It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness

Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins 

Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of  reward for   

You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun  And working out the
bugs of assembly  integration in LEO 

Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there




    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28

msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:


>Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?

No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.

>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet?

>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28

msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes


Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person

No I estimate a 99  probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done

Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto	Information  We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom				 The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet

This article is in the public domain

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
	<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>

dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
>   Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
> 
>   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what 
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.

Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities!  I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn!  They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)

> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?

Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
	
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
   Nice attempt Chris    verrry close
 
   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
 He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
 wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what 
 happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
 THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
 been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it    I
 have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
 receive all of the praise being paid to jesus

Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities  I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn  Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do 

 Dave Buckminster Fuller
 How is that one o keeper of the nicknames 

Nanci

If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh


preprocess doc  From: cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Florida State University Geology Dept.
Lines: 4

This discussion is better followed in talk.politics.space
Joseph Cain		cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu   
cain@fsu.bitnet		scri::cain
(904) 644-4014		FAX (904) 644-4214 or -0098

after prepro  From caingeomagglyfsuedu Joe Cain
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Florida State University Geology Dept
Lines 4

This discussion is better followed in talkpoliticsspace
Joseph Cain		caingeomagglyfsuedu   
cainfsubitnet		scricain
904 6444014		FAX 904 6444214 or 0098

preprocess doc  From: bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu (Mark Bradford)
Subject: Astro/Space Frequently Seen Acronyms
Supersedes: <space/acronyms_731394007@GZA.COM>
Organization: LifeForms Unlimited, Cephalopods
Lines: 509
Expires: 19 May 1993 04:00:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: pad-thai.aktis.com
Keywords: long space astro tla acronyms
X-Last-Updated: 1992/12/07

Archive-name: space/acronyms
Edition: 8

Acronym List for sci.astro, sci.space, and sci.space.shuttle:
Edition 8, 1992 Dec 7
Last posted: 1992 Aug 27

This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing
acronyms in the space-related newsgroups.  If I forgot or botched your
favorite acronym, please let me know!  Also, if there's an acronym *not*
on this list that confuses you, drop me a line, and if I can figure
it out, I'll add it to the list.

Note that this is intended to be a reference for *frequently seen*
acronyms, and is most emphatically *not* encyclopedic.  If I incorporated
every acronym I ever saw, I'd soon run out of disk space!  :-)

The list will be posted at regular intervals, every 30 days.  All
comments regarding it are welcome; I'm reachable as bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu.

Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for -- you're on your
own for figuring out what they *mean*!  Note also that the total number of
acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list; special-purpose acronyms that
are essentially always explained as they're introduced are omitted.
Further, some acronyms stand for more than one thing; as of Edition 3 of
the list, these acronyms appear on multiple lines, unless they're simply
different ways of referring to the same thing.

Thanks to everybody who's sent suggestions since the first version of
the list, and especially to Garrett A. Wollman (wollman@griffin.uvm.edu),
who is maintaining an independent list, somewhat more verbose in
character than mine, and to Daniel Fischer (dfi@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de),
who is maintaining a truly HUGE list (535 at last count) of acronyms and
terms, mostly in German (which I read, fortunately).

Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA, who sent me a copy of NASA
Reference Publication 1059 Revised: _Space Transportation System and
Associated Payloads: Glossary, Acronyms, and Abbreviations_, a truly
mammoth tome -- almost 300 pages of TLAs.

Special Bonus!  At the end of this posting, you will find a perl program
written by none other than Larry Wall, whose purpose is to scramble the
acronym list in an entertaining fashion.  Thanks, Larry!

A&A: Astronomy and Astrophysics
AAO: Anglo-Australian Observatory
AAS: American Astronomical Society
AAS: American Astronautical Society
AAVSO: American Association of Variable Star Observers
ACE: Advanced Composition Explorer
ACRV: Assured Crew Return Vehicle (or) Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle
ADFRF: Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility (was DFRF) (NASA)
AGN: Active Galactic Nucleus
AGU: American Geophysical Union
AIAA: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
AIPS: Astronomical Image Processing System
AJ: Astronomical Journal
ALEXIS: Array of Low Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors
ALPO: Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers
ALS: Advanced Launch System
ANSI: American National Standards Institute
AOA: Abort Once Around (Shuttle abort plan)
AOCS: Attitude and Orbit Control System
Ap.J: Astrophysical Journal
APM: Attached Pressurized Module (a.k.a. Columbus)
APU: Auxiliary Power Unit
ARC: Ames Research Center (NASA)
ARTEMIS: Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion
ASA: Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ASI: Agenzia Spaziale Italiano
ASRM: Advanced Solid Rocket Motor
ATDRS: Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
ATLAS: Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science
ATM: Amateur Telescope Maker
ATO: Abort To Orbit (Shuttle abort plan)
AU: Astronomical Unit
AURA: Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy
AW&ST: Aviation Week and Space Technology (a.k.a. AvLeak)
AXAF: Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility
BATSE: Burst And Transient Source Experiment (on CGRO)
BBXRT: Broad-Band X-Ray Telescope (ASTRO package)
BEM: Bug-Eyed Monster
BH: Black Hole
BIMA: Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array
BNSC: British National Space Centre
BTW: By The Way
C&T: Communications & Tracking
CCAFS: Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
CCD: Charge-Coupled Device
CCDS: Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
CD-ROM: Compact Disk Read-Only Memory
CFA: Center For Astrophysics
CFC: ChloroFluoroCarbon
CFF: Columbus Free Flyer
CFHT: Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope
CGRO: (Arthur Holley) Compton Gamma Ray Observatory (was GRO)
CHARA: Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy
CIRRIS: Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle
CIT: Circumstellar Imaging Telescope
CM: Command Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CMCC: Central Mission Control Centre (ESA)
CNES: Centre National d'Etude Spatiales
CNO: Carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen
CNSR: Comet Nucleus Sample Return
COBE: COsmic Background Explorer
COMPTEL: COMPton TELescope (on CGRO)
COSTAR: Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement
CRAF: Comet Rendezvous / Asteroid Flyby
CRRES: Combined Release / Radiation Effects Satellite
CSM: Command and Service Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CSTC: Consolidated Satellite Test Center (USAF)
CTIO: Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory
DCX: Delta Clipper eXperimental
DDCU: DC-to-DC Converter Unit
DFRF: Dryden Flight Research Facility (now ADFRF)
DMSP: Defense Meteorological Satellite Program
DOD: Department Of Defense (sometimes DoD)
DOE: Department Of Energy
DOT: Department Of Transportation
DSCS: Defense Satellite Communications System
DSN: Deep Space Network
DSP: Defense Support Program (USAF/NRO)
EAFB: Edwards Air Force Base
ECS: Environmental Control System
EDO: Extended Duration Orbiter
EGRET: Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope (on CGRO)
EJASA: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ELV: Expendable Launch Vehicle
EMU: Extravehicular Mobility Unit
EOS: Earth Observing System
ERS: Earth Resources Satellite (as in ERS-1)
ESA: European Space Agency
ESO: European Southern Observatory
ET: (Shuttle) External Tank
ETLA: Extended Three Letter Acronym
ETR: Eastern Test Range
EUV: Extreme UltraViolet
EUVE: Extreme UltraViolet Explorer
EVA: ExtraVehicular Activity
FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions
FAST: Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer
FFT: Fast Fourier Transform
FGS: Fine Guidance Sensors (on HST)
FHST: Fixed Head Star Trackers (on HST)
FIR: Far InfraRed
FITS: Flexible Image Transport System
FOC: Faint Object Camera (on HST)
FOS: Faint Object Spectrograph (on HST)
FRR: Flight-Readiness Review
FTP: File Transfer Protocol
FTS: Flight Telerobotic Servicer
FUSE: Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer
FWHM: Full Width at Half Maximum
FYI: For Your Information
GAS: Get-Away Special
GBT: Green Bank Telescope
GCVS: General Catalog of Variable Stars
GEM: Giotto Extended Mission
GEO: Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
GDS: Great Dark Spot
GHRS: Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph (on HST)
GIF: Graphics Interchange Format
GLOMR: Global Low-Orbiting Message Relay
GMC: Giant Molecular Cloud
GMRT: Giant Meter-wave Radio Telescope
GMT: Greenwich Mean Time (also called UT)
GOES: Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite
GOX: Gaseous OXygen
GPC: General Purpose Computer
GPS: Global Positioning System
GRO: Gamma Ray Observatory (now CGRO)
GRS: Gamma Ray Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
GRS: Great Red Spot
GSC: Guide Star Catalog (for HST)
GSFC: Goddard Space Flight Center (NASA)
GTO: Geostationary Transfer Orbit
HAO: High Altitude Observatory
HD: Henry Draper catalog entry
HEAO: High Energy Astronomical Observatory
HeRA: Hermes Robotic Arm
HF: High Frequency
HGA: High Gain Antenna
HLC: Heavy Lift Capability
HLV: Heavy Lift Vehicle
HMC: Halley Multicolor Camera (on Giotto)
HR: Hertzsprung-Russell (diagram)
HRI: High Resolution Imager (on ROSAT)
HSP: High Speed Photometer (on HST)
HST: Hubble Space Telescope
HUT: Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope (ASTRO package)
HV: High Voltage
IAPPP: International Amateur/Professional Photoelectric Photometry
IAU: International Astronomical Union
IAUC: IAU Circular
ICE: International Cometary Explorer
IDA: International Dark-sky Association
IDL: Interactive Data Language
IGM: InterGalactic Medium
IGY: International Geophysical Year
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion
IOTA: Infrared-Optical Telescope Array
IOTA: International Occultation Timing Association
IPS: Inertial Pointing System
IR: InfraRed
IRAF: Image Reduction and Analysis Facility
IRAS: InfraRed Astronomical Satellite
ISAS: Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (Japan)
ISM: InterStellar Medium
ISO: Infrared Space Observatory
ISO: International Standards Organization
ISPM: International Solar Polar Mission (now Ulysses)
ISY: International Space Year
IUE: International Ultraviolet Explorer
IUS: Inertial Upper Stage
JEM: Japanese Experiment Module (for SSF)
JGR: Journal of Geophysical Research
JILA: Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics
JPL: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
JSC: Johnson Space Center (NASA)
KAO: Kuiper Airborne Observatory
KPNO: Kitt Peak National Observatory
KSC: Kennedy Space Center (NASA)
KTB: Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary (from German)
LANL: Los Alamos National Laboratory
LaRC: Langley Research Center (NASA)
LDEF: Long Duration Exposure Facility
LEM: Lunar Excursion Module (a.k.a. LM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LEO: Low Earth Orbit
LeRC: Lewis Research Center (NASA)
LEST: Large Earth-based Solar Telescope
LFSA: List of Frequently Seen Acronyms (!)
LGA: Low Gain Antenna
LGM: Little Green Men
LH: Liquid Hydrogen (also LH2 or LHX)
LLNL: Lawrence-Livermore National Laboratory
LM: Lunar Module (a.k.a. LEM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LMC: Large Magellanic Cloud
LN2: Liquid N2 (Nitrogen)
LOX: Liquid OXygen
LRB: Liquid Rocket Booster
LSR: Local Standard of Rest
LTP: Lunar Transient Phenomenon
MB: Manned Base
MCC: Mission Control Center
MECO: Main Engine CutOff
MMH: MonoMethyl Hydrazine
MMT: Multiple Mirror Telescope
MMU: Manned Maneuvering Unit
MNRAS: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
MOC: Mars Observer Camera (on Mars Observer)
MOL: Manned Orbiting Laboratory
MOLA: Mars Observer Laser Altimeter (on Mars Observer)
MOMV: Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
MOTV: Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle
MPC: Minor Planets Circular
MRSR: Mars Rover and Sample Return
MRSRM: Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission
MSFC: (George C.) Marshall Space Flight Center (NASA)
MTC: Man Tended Capability
NACA: National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (became NASA)
NASA: National Aeronautics and Space Administration
NASDA: NAtional Space Development Agency (Japan)
NASM: National Air and Space Museum
NASP: National AeroSpace Plane
NBS: National Bureau of Standards (now NIST)
NDV: NASP Derived Vehicle
NERVA: Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application
NGC: New General Catalog
NICMOS: Near Infrared Camera / Multi Object Spectrometer (HST upgrade)
NIMS: Near-Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (on Galileo)
NIR: Near InfraRed
NIST: National Institute for Standards and Technology (was NBS)
NLDP: National Launch Development Program
NOAA: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NOAO: National Optical Astronomy Observatories
NRAO: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
NRO: National Reconnaissance Office
NS: Neutron Star
NSA: National Security Agency
NSF: National Science Foundation
NSO: National Solar Observatory
NSSDC: National Space Science Data Center
NTR: Nuclear Thermal Rocket(ry)
NTT: New Technology Telescope
OAO: Orbiting Astronomical Observatory
OCST: Office of Commercial Space Transportation
OMB: Office of Management and Budget
OMS: Orbital Maneuvering System
OPF: Orbiter Processing Facility
ORFEUS: Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer
OSC: Orbital Sciences Corporation
OSCAR: Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio
OSSA: Office of Space Science and Applications
OSSE: Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment (on CGRO)
OTA: Optical Telescope Assembly (on HST)
OTHB: Over The Horizon Backscatter
OTV: Orbital Transfer Vehicle
OV: Orbital Vehicle
PAM: Payload Assist Module
PAM-D: Payload Assist Module, Delta-class
PI: Principal Investigator
PLSS: Portable Life Support System
PM: Pressurized Module
PMC: Permanently Manned Capability
PMIRR: Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer (on Mars Observer)
PMT: PhotoMultiplier Tube
PSF: Point Spread Function
PSR: PulSaR
PV: Photovoltaic
PVO: Pioneer Venus Orbiter
QSO: Quasi-Stellar Object
RCI: Rodent Cage Interface (for SLS mission)
RCS: Reaction Control System
REM: Rat Enclosure Module (for SLS mission)
RF: Radio Frequency
RFI: Radio Frequency Interference
RIACS: Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science
RMS: Remote Manipulator System
RNGC: Revised New General Catalog
ROSAT: ROentgen SATellite
ROUS: Rodents Of Unusual Size (I don't believe they exist)
RSN: Real Soon Now
RTG: Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
RTLS: Return To Launch Site (Shuttle abort plan)
SAA: South Atlantic Anomaly
SAGA: Solar Array Gain Augmentation (for HST)
SAMPEX: Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer
SAO: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
SAR: Search And Rescue
SAR: Synthetic Aperture Radar
SARA: Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur
SAREX: Search and Rescue Exercise
SAREX: Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment
SAS: Space Activity Suit
SAS: Space Adaptation Syndrome
SAT: Synthetic Aperture Telescope
S/C: SpaceCraft
SCA: Shuttle Carrier Aircraft
SCT: Schmidt-Cassegrain Telescope
SDI: Strategic Defense Initiative
SDIO: Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
SEI: Space Exploration Initiative
SEST: Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope
SETI: Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
SID: Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance
SIR: Shuttle Imaging Radar
SIRTF: Space (formerly Shuttle) InfraRed Telescope Facility
SL: SpaceLab
SLAR: Side-Looking Airborne Radar
SLC: Space Launch Complex
SLS: Space(lab) Life Sciences
SMC: Small Magellanic Cloud
SME: Solar Mesosphere Explorer
SMEX: SMall EXplorers
SMM: Solar Maximum Mission
SN: SuperNova (e.g., SN1987A)
SNR: Signal to Noise Ratio
SNR: SuperNova Remnant
SNU: Solar Neutrino Units
SOFIA: Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy
SOHO: SOlar Heliospheric Observatory
SPAN: Space Physics and Analysis Network
SPDM: Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator
SPOT: Systeme Probatoire pour l'Observation de la Terre
SPS: Solar Power Satellite
SRB: Solid Rocket Booster
SRM: Solid Rocket Motor
SSF: Space Station Fred (er, Freedom)
SSI: Solid-State Imager (on Galileo)
SSI: Space Studies Institut
SSME: Space Shuttle Main Engine
SSPF: Space Station Processing Facility
SSRMS: Space Station Remote Manipulator System
SST: Spectroscopic Survey Telescope
SST: SuperSonic Transport
SSTO: Single Stage To Orbit
STIS: Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer (to replace FOC and GHRS)
STS: Shuttle Transport System (or) Space Transportation System
STScI: Space Telescope Science Institute
SWAS: Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
SWF: ShortWave Fading
TAL: Transatlantic Abort Landing (Shuttle abort plan)
TAU: Thousand Astronomical Unit (mission)
TCS: Thermal Control System
TDRS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
TDRSS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System
TES: Thermal Emission Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
TIROS: Television InfraRed Observation Satellite
TLA: Three Letter Acronym
TOMS: Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer
TPS: Thermal Protection System
TSS: Tethered Satellite System
UARS: Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
UBM: Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism
UDMH: Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine
UFO: Unidentified Flying Object
UGC: Uppsala General Catalog
UHF: Ultra High Frequency
UIT: Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (Astro package)
UKST: United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope
USAF: United States Air Force
USMP: United States Microgravity Payload
UT: Universal Time (a.k.a. GMT, UTC, or Zulu Time)
UTC: Coordinated Universal Time (a.k.a. UT)
UV: UltraViolet
UVS: UltraViolet Spectrometer
VAB: Vehicle Assembly Building (formerly Vertical Assembly Building)
VAFB: Vandenberg Air Force Base
VEEGA: Venus-Earth-Earth Gravity Assist (Galileo flight path)
VHF: Very High Frequency
VLA: Very Large Array
VLBA: Very Long Baseline Array
VLBI: Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLF: Very Low Frequency
VLT: Very Large Telescope
VMS: Vertical Motion Simulator
VOIR: Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar (superseded by VRM)
VPF: Vertical Processing Facility
VRM: Venus Radar Mapper (now called Magellan)
WD: White Dwarf
WFPC: Wide Field / Planetary Camera (on HST)
WFPCII: Replacement for WFPC
WIYN: Wisconsin / Indiana / Yale / NOAO telescope
WSMR: White Sands Missile Range
WTR: Western Test Range
WUPPE: Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment (Astro package)
XMM: X-ray Multi Mirror
XUV: eXtreme UltraViolet
YSO: Young Stellar Object


#!/usr/bin/perl
# 'alt', An Acronym Scrambling Program, by Larry Wall

$THRESHOLD = 2;

srand;
while (<>) {
    next unless /^([A-Z]\S+): */;
    $key = $1;
    $acro{$key} = $';
    @words = split(/\W+/,$');
    unshift(@words,$key);
    $off = 0;
    foreach $word (@words) {
        next unless $word =~ /^[A-Z]/;
        *w = $&;
        vec($w{$word}, $off++ % 6, 1) = 1;
    }
}

foreach $letter (A .. Z) {
    *w = $letter;
    @w = keys %w;
    if (@w < $THRESHOLD) {
        @d = `egrep '^$letter' /usr/dict/words`;
        chop @d;
        push(@w, @d);
    }
}

foreach $key (sort keys %acro) {
    $off = 0;
    $acro = $acro{$key};
    $acro =~ s/((([A-Z])[A-Z]*)[a-z]*)/ &pick($3, $2, $1, ++$off) || $& /eg;
    print "$key: $acro";
}

sub pick {
    local($letter, $prefix, $oldword, $off) = @_;
    $i = 0;
    if (length($prefix) > 1 && index($key,$prefix) < 0) {
        if ($prefix eq $oldword) {
            $prefix = '';
        }
        else {
            $prefix = $letter;
        }
    }
    if (length($prefix) > 1) {
        local(*w) = substr($prefix,0,1);
        do {
            $word = $w[rand @w];
        } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ /^$prefix/i || ++$i > 30;
        $word =~ s/^$prefix/$prefix/i;
        $word;
    }
    elsif (length($prefix) == 1) {
        local(*w) = $prefix;
        do {
            $word = $w[rand @w];
        } until $word ne $oldword && vec($w{$word}, $off, 1) || ++$i > 10;
        $word = "\u\L$word" if $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/;
        $word;
    }
    else {
        local(*w) = substr($oldword,0,1);
        do {
            $word = $w[rand @w];
        } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/ == 0 || ++$i > 30;
        $word;
    }
}


-- Mark Bradford (bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu) <> To err is human, to moo bovine.
                  "It's an ill wind that gathers no moss."



after prepro  From bradfrd2ncarucaredu Mark Bradford
Subject AstroSpace Frequently Seen Acronyms
Supersedes 
Organization LifeForms Unlimited Cephalopods
Lines 509
Expires 19 May 1993 040004 GMT
NNTPPostingHost padthaiaktiscom
Keywords long space astro tla acronyms
XLastUpdated 19921207

Archivename spaceacronyms
Edition 8

Acronym List for sciastro scispace and scispaceshuttle
Edition 8 1992 Dec 7
Last posted 1992 Aug 27

This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing
acronyms in the spacerelated newsgroups  If I forgot or botched your
favorite acronym please let me know  Also if theres an acronym not
on this list that confuses you drop me a line and if I can figure
it out Ill add it to the list

Note that this is intended to be a reference for frequently seen
acronyms and is most emphatically not encyclopedic  If I incorporated
every acronym I ever saw Id soon run out of disk space  

The list will be posted at regular intervals every 30 days  All
comments regarding it are welcome Im reachable as bradfrd2ncarucaredu

Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for  youre on your
own for figuring out what they mean  Note also that the total number of
acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list specialpurpose acronyms that
are essentially always explained as theyre introduced are omitted
Further some acronyms stand for more than one thing as of Edition 3 of
the list these acronyms appear on multiple lines unless theyre simply
different ways of referring to the same thing

Thanks to everybody whos sent suggestions since the first version of
the list and especially to Garrett A Wollman wollmangriffinuvmedu
who is maintaining an independent list somewhat more verbose in
character than mine and to Daniel Fischer dfispecklecmpifrbonnmpgde
who is maintaining a truly HUGE list 535 at last count of acronyms and
terms mostly in German which I read fortunately

Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA who sent me a copy of NASA
Reference Publication 1059 Revised _Space Transportation System and
Associated Payloads Glossary Acronyms and Abbreviations_ a truly
mammoth tome  almost 300 pages of TLAs

Special Bonus  At the end of this posting you will find a perl program
written by none other than Larry Wall whose purpose is to scramble the
acronym list in an entertaining fashion  Thanks Larry

AA Astronomy and Astrophysics
AAO AngloAustralian Observatory
AAS American Astronomical Society
AAS American Astronautical Society
AAVSO American Association of Variable Star Observers
ACE Advanced Composition Explorer
ACRV Assured Crew Return Vehicle or Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle
ADFRF AmesDryden Flight Research Facility was DFRF NASA
AGN Active Galactic Nucleus
AGU American Geophysical Union
AIAA American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
AIPS Astronomical Image Processing System
AJ Astronomical Journal
ALEXIS Array of Low Energy Xray Imaging Sensors
ALPO Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers
ALS Advanced Launch System
ANSI American National Standards Institute
AOA Abort Once Around Shuttle abort plan
AOCS Attitude and Orbit Control System
ApJ Astrophysical Journal
APM Attached Pressurized Module aka Columbus
APU Auxiliary Power Unit
ARC Ames Research Center NASA
ARTEMIS Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion
ASA Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ASI Agenzia Spaziale Italiano
ASRM Advanced Solid Rocket Motor
ATDRS Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
ATLAS Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science
ATM Amateur Telescope Maker
ATO Abort To Orbit Shuttle abort plan
AU Astronomical Unit
AURA Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy
AWST Aviation Week and Space Technology aka AvLeak
AXAF Advanced Xray Astrophysics Facility
BATSE Burst And Transient Source Experiment on CGRO
BBXRT BroadBand XRay Telescope ASTRO package
BEM BugEyed Monster
BH Black Hole
BIMA Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array
BNSC British National Space Centre
BTW By The Way
CT Communications  Tracking
CCAFS Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
CCD ChargeCoupled Device
CCDS Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
CDROM Compact Disk ReadOnly Memory
CFA Center For Astrophysics
CFC ChloroFluoroCarbon
CFF Columbus Free Flyer
CFHT CanadaFranceHawaii Telescope
CGRO Arthur Holley Compton Gamma Ray Observatory was GRO
CHARA Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy
CIRRIS Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle
CIT Circumstellar Imaging Telescope
CM Command Module Apollo spacecraft
CMCC Central Mission Control Centre ESA
CNES Centre National dEtude Spatiales
CNO CarbonNitrogenOxygen
CNSR Comet Nucleus Sample Return
COBE COsmic Background Explorer
COMPTEL COMPton TELescope on CGRO
COSTAR Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement
CRAF Comet Rendezvous  Asteroid Flyby
CRRES Combined Release  Radiation Effects Satellite
CSM Command and Service Module Apollo spacecraft
CSTC Consolidated Satellite Test Center USAF
CTIO Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory
DCX Delta Clipper eXperimental
DDCU DCtoDC Converter Unit
DFRF Dryden Flight Research Facility now ADFRF
DMSP Defense Meteorological Satellite Program
DOD Department Of Defense sometimes DoD
DOE Department Of Energy
DOT Department Of Transportation
DSCS Defense Satellite Communications System
DSN Deep Space Network
DSP Defense Support Program USAFNRO
EAFB Edwards Air Force Base
ECS Environmental Control System
EDO Extended Duration Orbiter
EGRET Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope on CGRO
EJASA Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ELV Expendable Launch Vehicle
EMU Extravehicular Mobility Unit
EOS Earth Observing System
ERS Earth Resources Satellite as in ERS1
ESA European Space Agency
ESO European Southern Observatory
ET Shuttle External Tank
ETLA Extended Three Letter Acronym
ETR Eastern Test Range
EUV Extreme UltraViolet
EUVE Extreme UltraViolet Explorer
EVA ExtraVehicular Activity
FAQ Frequently Asked Questions
FAST Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer
FFT Fast Fourier Transform
FGS Fine Guidance Sensors on HST
FHST Fixed Head Star Trackers on HST
FIR Far InfraRed
FITS Flexible Image Transport System
FOC Faint Object Camera on HST
FOS Faint Object Spectrograph on HST
FRR FlightReadiness Review
FTP File Transfer Protocol
FTS Flight Telerobotic Servicer
FUSE Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer
FWHM Full Width at Half Maximum
FYI For Your Information
GAS GetAway Special
GBT Green Bank Telescope
GCVS General Catalog of Variable Stars
GEM Giotto Extended Mission
GEO Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
GDS Great Dark Spot
GHRS Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph on HST
GIF Graphics Interchange Format
GLOMR Global LowOrbiting Message Relay
GMC Giant Molecular Cloud
GMRT Giant Meterwave Radio Telescope
GMT Greenwich Mean Time also called UT
GOES Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite
GOX Gaseous OXygen
GPC General Purpose Computer
GPS Global Positioning System
GRO Gamma Ray Observatory now CGRO
GRS Gamma Ray Spectrometer on Mars Observer
GRS Great Red Spot
GSC Guide Star Catalog for HST
GSFC Goddard Space Flight Center NASA
GTO Geostationary Transfer Orbit
HAO High Altitude Observatory
HD Henry Draper catalog entry
HEAO High Energy Astronomical Observatory
HeRA Hermes Robotic Arm
HF High Frequency
HGA High Gain Antenna
HLC Heavy Lift Capability
HLV Heavy Lift Vehicle
HMC Halley Multicolor Camera on Giotto
HR HertzsprungRussell diagram
HRI High Resolution Imager on ROSAT
HSP High Speed Photometer on HST
HST Hubble Space Telescope
HUT Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope ASTRO package
HV High Voltage
IAPPP International AmateurProfessional Photoelectric Photometry
IAU International Astronomical Union
IAUC IAU Circular
ICE International Cometary Explorer
IDA International Darksky Association
IDL Interactive Data Language
IGM InterGalactic Medium
IGY International Geophysical Year
IMHO In My Humble Opinion
IOTA InfraredOptical Telescope Array
IOTA International Occultation Timing Association
IPS Inertial Pointing System
IR InfraRed
IRAF Image Reduction and Analysis Facility
IRAS InfraRed Astronomical Satellite
ISAS Institute of Space and Astronautical Science Japan
ISM InterStellar Medium
ISO Infrared Space Observatory
ISO International Standards Organization
ISPM International Solar Polar Mission now Ulysses
ISY International Space Year
IUE International Ultraviolet Explorer
IUS Inertial Upper Stage
JEM Japanese Experiment Module for SSF
JGR Journal of Geophysical Research
JILA Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
JSC Johnson Space Center NASA
KAO Kuiper Airborne Observatory
KPNO Kitt Peak National Observatory
KSC Kennedy Space Center NASA
KTB CretaceousTertiary Boundary from German
LANL Los Alamos National Laboratory
LaRC Langley Research Center NASA
LDEF Long Duration Exposure Facility
LEM Lunar Excursion Module aka LM Apollo spacecraft
LEO Low Earth Orbit
LeRC Lewis Research Center NASA
LEST Large Earthbased Solar Telescope
LFSA List of Frequently Seen Acronyms 
LGA Low Gain Antenna
LGM Little Green Men
LH Liquid Hydrogen also LH2 or LHX
LLNL LawrenceLivermore National Laboratory
LM Lunar Module aka LEM Apollo spacecraft
LMC Large Magellanic Cloud
LN2 Liquid N2 Nitrogen
LOX Liquid OXygen
LRB Liquid Rocket Booster
LSR Local Standard of Rest
LTP Lunar Transient Phenomenon
MB Manned Base
MCC Mission Control Center
MECO Main Engine CutOff
MMH MonoMethyl Hydrazine
MMT Multiple Mirror Telescope
MMU Manned Maneuvering Unit
MNRAS Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
MOC Mars Observer Camera on Mars Observer
MOL Manned Orbiting Laboratory
MOLA Mars Observer Laser Altimeter on Mars Observer
MOMV Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
MOTV Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle
MPC Minor Planets Circular
MRSR Mars Rover and Sample Return
MRSRM Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission
MSFC George C Marshall Space Flight Center NASA
MTC Man Tended Capability
NACA National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics became NASA
NASA National Aeronautics and Space Administration
NASDA NAtional Space Development Agency Japan
NASM National Air and Space Museum
NASP National AeroSpace Plane
NBS National Bureau of Standards now NIST
NDV NASP Derived Vehicle
NERVA Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application
NGC New General Catalog
NICMOS Near Infrared Camera  Multi Object Spectrometer HST upgrade
NIMS NearInfrared Mapping Spectrometer on Galileo
NIR Near InfraRed
NIST National Institute for Standards and Technology was NBS
NLDP National Launch Development Program
NOAA National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NOAO National Optical Astronomy Observatories
NRAO National Radio Astronomy Observatory
NRO National Reconnaissance Office
NS Neutron Star
NSA National Security Agency
NSF National Science Foundation
NSO National Solar Observatory
NSSDC National Space Science Data Center
NTR Nuclear Thermal Rocketry
NTT New Technology Telescope
OAO Orbiting Astronomical Observatory
OCST Office of Commercial Space Transportation
OMB Office of Management and Budget
OMS Orbital Maneuvering System
OPF Orbiter Processing Facility
ORFEUS Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer
OSC Orbital Sciences Corporation
OSCAR Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio
OSSA Office of Space Science and Applications
OSSE Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment on CGRO
OTA Optical Telescope Assembly on HST
OTHB Over The Horizon Backscatter
OTV Orbital Transfer Vehicle
OV Orbital Vehicle
PAM Payload Assist Module
PAMD Payload Assist Module Deltaclass
PI Principal Investigator
PLSS Portable Life Support System
PM Pressurized Module
PMC Permanently Manned Capability
PMIRR Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer on Mars Observer
PMT PhotoMultiplier Tube
PSF Point Spread Function
PSR PulSaR
PV Photovoltaic
PVO Pioneer Venus Orbiter
QSO QuasiStellar Object
RCI Rodent Cage Interface for SLS mission
RCS Reaction Control System
REM Rat Enclosure Module for SLS mission
RF Radio Frequency
RFI Radio Frequency Interference
RIACS Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science
RMS Remote Manipulator System
RNGC Revised New General Catalog
ROSAT ROentgen SATellite
ROUS Rodents Of Unusual Size I dont believe they exist
RSN Real Soon Now
RTG Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
RTLS Return To Launch Site Shuttle abort plan
SAA South Atlantic Anomaly
SAGA Solar Array Gain Augmentation for HST
SAMPEX Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer
SAO Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
SAR Search And Rescue
SAR Synthetic Aperture Radar
SARA Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur
SAREX Search and Rescue Exercise
SAREX Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment
SAS Space Activity Suit
SAS Space Adaptation Syndrome
SAT Synthetic Aperture Telescope
SC SpaceCraft
SCA Shuttle Carrier Aircraft
SCT SchmidtCassegrain Telescope
SDI Strategic Defense Initiative
SDIO Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
SEI Space Exploration Initiative
SEST Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope
SETI Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
SID Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance
SIR Shuttle Imaging Radar
SIRTF Space formerly Shuttle InfraRed Telescope Facility
SL SpaceLab
SLAR SideLooking Airborne Radar
SLC Space Launch Complex
SLS Spacelab Life Sciences
SMC Small Magellanic Cloud
SME Solar Mesosphere Explorer
SMEX SMall EXplorers
SMM Solar Maximum Mission
SN SuperNova eg SN1987A
SNR Signal to Noise Ratio
SNR SuperNova Remnant
SNU Solar Neutrino Units
SOFIA Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy
SOHO SOlar Heliospheric Observatory
SPAN Space Physics and Analysis Network
SPDM Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator
SPOT Systeme Probatoire pour lObservation de la Terre
SPS Solar Power Satellite
SRB Solid Rocket Booster
SRM Solid Rocket Motor
SSF Space Station Fred er Freedom
SSI SolidState Imager on Galileo
SSI Space Studies Institut
SSME Space Shuttle Main Engine
SSPF Space Station Processing Facility
SSRMS Space Station Remote Manipulator System
SST Spectroscopic Survey Telescope
SST SuperSonic Transport
SSTO Single Stage To Orbit
STIS Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer to replace FOC and GHRS
STS Shuttle Transport System or Space Transportation System
STScI Space Telescope Science Institute
SWAS Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
SWF ShortWave Fading
TAL Transatlantic Abort Landing Shuttle abort plan
TAU Thousand Astronomical Unit mission
TCS Thermal Control System
TDRS Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
TDRSS Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System
TES Thermal Emission Spectrometer on Mars Observer
TIROS Television InfraRed Observation Satellite
TLA Three Letter Acronym
TOMS Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer
TPS Thermal Protection System
TSS Tethered Satellite System
UARS Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
UBM Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism
UDMH Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine
UFO Unidentified Flying Object
UGC Uppsala General Catalog
UHF Ultra High Frequency
UIT Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope Astro package
UKST United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope
USAF United States Air Force
USMP United States Microgravity Payload
UT Universal Time aka GMT UTC or Zulu Time
UTC Coordinated Universal Time aka UT
UV UltraViolet
UVS UltraViolet Spectrometer
VAB Vehicle Assembly Building formerly Vertical Assembly Building
VAFB Vandenberg Air Force Base
VEEGA VenusEarthEarth Gravity Assist Galileo flight path
VHF Very High Frequency
VLA Very Large Array
VLBA Very Long Baseline Array
VLBI Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLF Very Low Frequency
VLT Very Large Telescope
VMS Vertical Motion Simulator
VOIR Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar superseded by VRM
VPF Vertical Processing Facility
VRM Venus Radar Mapper now called Magellan
WD White Dwarf
WFPC Wide Field  Planetary Camera on HST
WFPCII Replacement for WFPC
WIYN Wisconsin  Indiana  Yale  NOAO telescope
WSMR White Sands Missile Range
WTR Western Test Range
WUPPE Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment Astro package
XMM Xray Multi Mirror
XUV eXtreme UltraViolet
YSO Young Stellar Object


usrbinperl
 alt An Acronym Scrambling Program by Larry Wall

THRESHOLD  2

srand
while  
    next unless ^[AZ]\S 
    key  1
    acrokey  
    words  split\W
    unshiftwordskey
    off  0
    foreach word words 
        next unless word  ^[AZ]
        w  
        vecwword off  6 1  1
    


foreach letter A  Z 
    w  letter
    w  keys w
    if w  THRESHOLD 
        d  `egrep ^letter usrdictwords`
        chop d
        pushw d
    


foreach key sort keys acro 
    off  0
    acro  acrokey
    acro  s[AZ][AZ][az] pick3 2 1 off   eg
    print key acro


sub pick 
    localletter prefix oldword off  _
    i  0
    if lengthprefix  1  indexkeyprefix  0 
        if prefix eq oldword 
            prefix  
        
        else 
            prefix  letter
        
    
    if lengthprefix  1 
        localw  substrprefix01
        do 
            word  w[rand w]
         until word ne oldword  word  ^prefixi  i  30
        word  s^prefixprefixi
        word
    
    elsif lengthprefix  1 
        localw  prefix
        do 
            word  w[rand w]
         until word ne oldword  vecwword off 1  i  10
        word  \u\Lword if word  trazAZ
        word
    
    else 
        localw  substroldword01
        do 
            word  w[rand w]
         until word ne oldword  word  trazAZ  0  i  30
        word
    



 Mark Bradford bradfrd2ncarucaredu  To err is human to moo bovine
                  Its an ill wind that gathers no moss



preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Cannanite genocide in the Bible
Lines: 6
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 6

excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the 
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern 
day Palestinians.
Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!!

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Cannanite genocide in the Bible
Lines 6
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 6

excuse me for my ignorance But I remember reading once that the 
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still existsthey are the modern 
day Palestinians
Anyone out there with more info please post it

Tammy

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Second Law (was: Albert Sabin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20

Joel Hanes (jjh00@diag.amdahl.com) wrote:

: Mr Connor's assertion that "more complex" == later in paleontology
: is simply incorrect.  Many lineages are known in which whole
: structures are lost -- for example, snakes have lost their legs.
: Cave fish have lost their eyes.  Some species have almost completely
: lost their males.  Kiwis are descended from birds with functional
: wings.

Joel,

The statements I made were illustrative of the inescapably
anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process.
There is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other
than teleological, that is my whole point. Even those who have reason
to believe they understand evolution (biologists for instance) tend to
personify nature and I can't help but wonder if it's because of the
limits of the language or the nature of nature.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Second Law was Albert Sabin
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20

Joel Hanes jjh00diagamdahlcom wrote

 Mr Connors assertion that more complex  later in paleontology
 is simply incorrect  Many lineages are known in which whole
 structures are lost  for example snakes have lost their legs
 Cave fish have lost their eyes  Some species have almost completely
 lost their males  Kiwis are descended from birds with functional
 wings

Joel

The statements I made were illustrative of the inescapably
anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process
There is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other
than teleological that is my whole point Even those who have reason
to believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend to
personify nature and I cant help but wonder if its because of the
limits of the language or the nature of nature

Bill

preprocess doc  From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Keith IS a relativist!
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 25

In article <1pigidINNsot@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

> Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
> blame the tiger?

AHA! He admits it! He IS a moral relativist!

Keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'I think there is an absolute
morality' blurb a few weeks ago.

> keith

The Desert Brat
-- 
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia,    ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au      T.S.A.K.C.            \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au      /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions.                       bb  bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack  |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to   | for some."            |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com             |    - Alice In Chains  |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+

after prepro  From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Keith IS a relativist
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 25

In article 1pigidINNsotgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

 Not so  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
 blame the tiger

AHA He admits it He IS a moral relativist

Keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into its cage so to speak youd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your I think there is an absolute
morality blurb a few weeks ago

 keith

The Desert Brat
 
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia    ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau      TSAKC            \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau      \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions                       bb  bb

It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we  Gods name is smack  
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to    for some            
produce it  Jim Perry perrydsinccom                  Alice In Chains  


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Blow up space station, easy way to do it.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.184527.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

This might a real wierd idea or maybe not..

I have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them
that then drys and makes hard walls...

Why not do the same thing for a space station..

Fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such, blow up the baloons,
spin then around (I know a problem in micro gravity) let them dry/cure/harden?
and cut a hole for the docking/attaching ring and bingo a space station..

Of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation
protective covering/heat shield(?) and the material used to make the wals would
have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paint/covering of
the inner wall would have to be human safe.. Maybe a special congrete or maybe
the same material as makes caplets but with some changes (saw where someone
instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture, got a mix that was just as
strong as congret but easier to carry around and such..)

Sorry for any spelling errors, I missed school today.. (grin)..

Why musta  space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be
confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not
earth, why be limited by earth based ideas??

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
going crazy in Nome Alaska, break up is here..

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Blow up space station easy way to do it
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51845271
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

This might a real wierd idea or maybe not

I have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them
that then drys and makes hard walls

Why not do the same thing for a space station

Fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such blow up the baloons
spin then around I know a problem in micro gravity let them drycureharden
and cut a hole for the dockingattaching ring and bingo a space station

Of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation
protective coveringheat shield and the material used to make the wals would
have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paintcovering of
the inner wall would have to be human safe Maybe a special congrete or maybe
the same material as makes caplets but with some changes saw where someone
instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture got a mix that was just as
strong as congret but easier to carry around and such

Sorry for any spelling errors I missed school today grin

Why musta  space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be
confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not
earth why be limited by earth based ideas


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked
going crazy in Nome Alaska break up is here

preprocess doc  Subject: DC-X/Y/1 question
From: kkobayas@husc8.harvard.edu (Ken Kobayashi)
Keywords: DC-X
Nntp-Posting-Host: husc8.harvard.edu
Lines: 17



   I've been following discussions about the Delta Clipper program, and I
have one small question.  As I understand it, the DC-X derived orbital
vehicle (DC-Y & 1) is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways, not
completely nose-first.  So why is the DC-Y look symmetric in every drawing
I've seen?  I would think that an asymmetric design, sort of like 
wingless Orbiter, may work better, since less shielding is required on the
top side.  Can anybody explain?  

- Ken Kobayashi
kkobayas@husc.harvard.edu

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Ken Kobayashi              |   
kkobayas@husc.harvard.edu        |   "There is no final frontier." - IBM ad

after prepro  Subject DCXY1 question
From kkobayashusc8harvardedu Ken Kobayashi
Keywords DCX
NntpPostingHost husc8harvardedu
Lines 17



   Ive been following discussions about the Delta Clipper program and I
have one small question  As I understand it the DCX derived orbital
vehicle DCY  1 is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways not
completely nosefirst  So why is the DCY look symmetric in every drawing
Ive seen  I would think that an asymmetric design sort of like 
wingless Orbiter may work better since less shielding is required on the
top side  Can anybody explain  

 Ken Kobayashi
kkobayashuscharvardedu

 

      Ken Kobayashi                 
kkobayashuscharvardedu           There is no final frontier  IBM ad

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 13

In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
>of a private Titan pad? 

You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
no new launcher development.  If you assume new launcher development, with
lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
build something HLV-sized anyway.

Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans.  It
doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
would have far better cost-effectiveness.

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 13

In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad 

Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development  If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway

Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans  It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Metric vs English
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr6.131900.8407
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 31

In <1993Apr5.195215.16833@pixel.kodak.com> dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones) writes:

>Keith Mancus (mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov) wrote:
>> Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Dunn) writes:
>> > SI neatly separates the concepts of "mass", "force" and "weight"
>> > which have gotten horribly tangled up in the US system.
>> 
>>   This is not a problem with English units.  A pound is defined to
>> be a unit of force, period.  There is a perfectly good unit called
>> the slug, which is the mass of an object weighing 32.2 lbs at sea level.
>> (g = 32.2 ft/sec^2, of course.)
>> 

>American Military English units, perhaps.  Us real English types were once 
>taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force (being that force that
>causes 1 pound to accelerate at 1 ft.s-2).  We had a rare olde tyme doing 
>our exams in those units and metric as well.

American, perhaps, but nothing military about it.  I learned (mostly)
slugs when we talked English units in high school physics and while
the teacher was an ex-Navy fighter jock the book certainly wasn't
produced by the military.

[Poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out
funny; sort of the same reason proponents of SI give for using that.] 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Metric vs English
ArticleID mksol1993Apr61319008407
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 31

In 1993Apr519521516833pixelkodakcom djekcolorssdkodakcom Dave Jones writes

Keith Mancus mancussweetpeajscnasagov wrote
 Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca Bruce Dunn writes
  SI neatly separates the concepts of mass force and weight
  which have gotten horribly tangled up in the US system
 
   This is not a problem with English units  A pound is defined to
 be a unit of force period  There is a perfectly good unit called
 the slug which is the mass of an object weighing 322 lbs at sea level
 g  322 ftsec^2 of course
 

American Military English units perhaps  Us real English types were once 
taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force being that force that
causes 1 pound to accelerate at 1 fts2  We had a rare olde tyme doing 
our exams in those units and metric as well

American perhaps but nothing military about it  I learned mostly
slugs when we talked English units in high school physics and while
the teacher was an exNavy fighter jock the book certainly wasnt
produced by the military

[Poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out
funny sort of the same reason proponents of SI give for using that] 

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
            <C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Lines: 15

In <C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Greg Hennessy writes:
>In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>#The better question  should be.
>#Why not transfer  O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
>#to support these kind of ongoing science missions.
>
>Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
>changing them to a seperate agency help anything?
>
How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Nicholls ...         : Vidi
nicho@vnet.ibm.com or     : Vici
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni

after prepro  From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
            
Lines 15

In  Greg Hennessy writes
In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The better question  should be
Why not transfer  OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions

Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything

How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational
 
Greg Nicholls           Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or      Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk  Veni

preprocess doc  Subject: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Lines: 55

In article <2942949719.2.p00261@psilink.com>, "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>DATE:   Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500
>>FROM:   Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>>
>>
>>> > 3. Can god uncreate itself?
>>> 
>>> No.  For if He did, He would violate His own nature which He cannot do.
>>> It is God's nature to Exist.  He is, after all, the "I AM" which is
>>> a statement of His inherent Existence.  He is existence itself.
>>> Existence cannot "not-exist".
>>
>>Then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent.
>>

What do you mean by omnipotent here?  Do you mean by "omnipotent"
that God should be able to do anything/everything?  This creates
a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless.

To be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and
not "being able to do anything/everything".

Let me illustrate by analogy.
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth.  Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations.  The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit.  The US would be militarily "omnipotent".

But suppose further that the US holds to a doctrine/philosophy of not
interfering in the internal affairs of any nation, such as the current
civil war in the former Yugoslavian states.

Technically (in this scenario) the US would have the power to 
unilaterally go into Yugoslavia and straighten out the mess.  But
effectively the US could not intervene without violating its own policy 
of non-interference.  If the policy of non-interference were held to
strongly enough, then there would never be a question that it would
ever be violated.  Effectively, the US would be limited in what it
could actually do, although it had the power to do "whatever it wanted".
The US would simply "never want to interfere" for such an idea would
be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate
non-interference policy.

God is effectively limited in the same sense.  He is all powerful, but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He, Himself is.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning
omnipotence.

Regards,

Jim B.

after prepro  Subject Omnipotence was Re Speculations
From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Lines 55

In article 29429497192p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes
DATE   Fri 2 Apr 1993 230222 0500
FROM   Nanci Ann Miller 


  3 Can god uncreate itself
 
 No  For if He did He would violate His own nature which He cannot do
 It is Gods nature to Exist  He is after all the I AM which is
 a statement of His inherent Existence  He is existence itself
 Existence cannot notexist

Then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent


What do you mean by omnipotent here  Do you mean by omnipotent
that God should be able to do anythingeverything  This creates
a selfcontradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless

To be descriptive omnipotence must mean being allpowerful and
not being able to do anythingeverything

Let me illustrate by analogy
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth  Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations  The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit  The US would be militarily omnipotent

But suppose further that the US holds to a doctrinephilosophy of not
interfering in the internal affairs of any nation such as the current
civil war in the former Yugoslavian states

Technically in this scenario the US would have the power to 
unilaterally go into Yugoslavia and straighten out the mess  But
effectively the US could not intervene without violating its own policy 
of noninterference  If the policy of noninterference were held to
strongly enough then there would never be a question that it would
ever be violated  Effectively the US would be limited in what it
could actually do although it had the power to do whatever it wanted
The US would simply never want to interfere for such an idea would
be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate
noninterference policy

God is effectively limited in the same sense  He is all powerful but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He Himself is

I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning
omnipotence

Regards

Jim B

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr15.081303.16532@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
|> 
|> Leonard, I'll give you an example of this....
|> 
|> My father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds
|> and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised
|> 60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and 
|> Muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after
|> paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
|> to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this
|> is an example of a Muslim community helping one another, why did they help
|> because of their common identity as Muslims. In turn my father has helped
|> with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay 
|> and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
|> fortunate in the community. 

Sorry.   Wrong.    This is how banks got started in the first place.
Sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone
who eventually goes broke, and then they will realise that they
havn't been managing risk very well.   Then they will ask themselves
what it is that they need to quantify risk, and to persuade borrowers
not to take on greater loans than they can carry.    And since they
don't all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the
money, some of them will specialise in that.

Then they'll reinvent interest, but like good Muslims, they'll call
it something else.

|> 
|> The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight!
|> iThat is the beauty of Islam.

Riiiight.   That's why John Major opened a new government department
a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business.   Because
they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage 
Organization sgi
Lines 37
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr1508130316532CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
 
 Leonard Ill give you an example of this
 
 My father recently bought a business the business price was 150000 pounds
 and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised
 60000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and 
 Muslims he knew 50000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan after
 paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
 to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this
 is an example of a Muslim community helping one another why did they help
 because of their common identity as Muslims In turn my father has helped
 with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay 
 and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
 fortunate in the community 

Sorry   Wrong    This is how banks got started in the first place
Sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone
who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they
havnt been managing risk very well   Then they will ask themselves
what it is that they need to quantify risk and to persuade borrowers
not to take on greater loans than they can carry    And since they
dont all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the
money some of them will specialise in that

Then theyll reinvent interest but like good Muslims theyll call
it something else

 
 The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight
 iThat is the beauty of Islam

Riiiight   Thats why John Major opened a new government department
a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business   Because
they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar

jon

preprocess doc  From: u1452@penelope.sdsc.edu (Jeff Bytof - SIO)
Subject: End of the Space Age?
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center @ UCSD
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: penelope.sdsc.edu

We are not at the end of the Space Age, but only at the end of Its
beginning.

That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation,
or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable; however,
technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for
possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to
many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the
cost of future space operations. 

The Dream is Alive and Well.

-Jeff Bytof
member, technical staff
Institute for Remote Exploration


after prepro  From u1452penelopesdscedu Jeff Bytof  SIO
Subject End of the Space Age
Organization San Diego Supercomputer Center  UCSD
Lines 16
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost penelopesdscedu

We are not at the end of the Space Age but only at the end of Its
beginning

That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation
or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable however
technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for
possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to
many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the
cost of future space operations 

The Dream is Alive and Well

Jeff Bytof
member technical staff
Institute for Remote Exploration


preprocess doc  From: games@max.u.washington.edu
Subject: Aerospace companies cooperate in reusable vehicle market.
Article-I.D.: max.1993Apr6.121843.1
Distribution: world
Lines: 34
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.u.washington.edu

What would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 (Martin
Mariatta, Boeing, Mcdonell Douglas, General Dynamics, Lockheed, Rockwell)
getting together, and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market
price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles, and spending say
$3million to do that.  Recognizing that most of the military requirements
for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere (say, has the shuttle 
ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability?  You get the idea, figure
out how many, how often, where to, etc...)

Then taking this data, and forming a sematech type company (bad example, I
know... but at least its an example...)  To develop between 3 and 5 craft
designs.  Then to take all of those designs, and figure out EXACTLY what
the technologies are, and demonstrate those technologies, in order to 
eliminate designs that can't be built today.  And lets say that this
portion again funded by the GOV cost about $20 million.

And from here all of these companies went their separate ways, with the
intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall
street, and saying "I want to build this vehicle, and here are the numbers
that show %20 ROI, fund me...)


Now many of you think that this is a joke, but I have it on good authority that
just this project is shaping up in the background. It seems that the aerospace
companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things
ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled (NASP, NLS,
ALS, DCY?, etc...)  They need to work more in the japaneese, and european
spirit of initial cooperation.  They have also learned that design requirements
that are phony (I.E. some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be)
ends up getting chopped up in congress, because it is not a REAL requirement.

Any feedback?

			John.

after prepro  From gamesmaxuwashingtonedu
Subject Aerospace companies cooperate in reusable vehicle market
ArticleID max1993Apr61218431
Distribution world
Lines 34
NNTPPostingHost maxuwashingtonedu

What would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 Martin
Mariatta Boeing Mcdonell Douglas General Dynamics Lockheed Rockwell
getting together and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market
price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles and spending say
3million to do that  Recognizing that most of the military requirements
for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere say has the shuttle 
ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability  You get the idea figure
out how many how often where to etc

Then taking this data and forming a sematech type company bad example I
know but at least its an example  To develop between 3 and 5 craft
designs  Then to take all of those designs and figure out EXACTLY what
the technologies are and demonstrate those technologies in order to 
eliminate designs that cant be built today  And lets say that this
portion again funded by the GOV cost about 20 million

And from here all of these companies went their separate ways with the
intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall
street and saying I want to build this vehicle and here are the numbers
that show 20 ROI fund me


Now many of you think that this is a joke but I have it on good authority that
just this project is shaping up in the background It seems that the aerospace
companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things
ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled NASP NLS
ALS DCY etc  They need to work more in the japaneese and european
spirit of initial cooperation  They have also learned that design requirements
that are phony IE some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be
ends up getting chopped up in congress because it is not a REAL requirement

Any feedback

			John

preprocess doc  From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: dsi.1pq6skINNhi4
Distribution: usa
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com

In article <1993Apr3.221101.25314@midway.uchicago.edu> shou@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1pi0dhINN8ub@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>Bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational; it
>>is other people who determine that by examining their arguments.
>[...]
>No!  I  expected it! You've set yourself up a wonderful little
>world where a bigot is whomever you say it is.  This is very 
>comfortable for you--imagine, never having to entertain an
>argument against your belief system.  Simply accuse the person
>making of being a bigot.  

Well, this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over
into alt.atheism, where we spend most of our time entertaining
arguments against our belief system, without resorting to accusing
others of bigotry.  It's somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry
happens in this instance to have originated in rec.scouting, since I
always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity.  I
understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who
happen to be of a different race, religion, ethnic background, sex, or
other inconsequential characteristics.  All the evidence I've seen
indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are
exactly such inconsequential characteristics.  Thus, pending further
evidence, I conclude that those who show prejudice against such people
are bigots, and organizations that exclude such people are
discriminatory.
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

after prepro  From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID dsi1pq6skINNhi4
Distribution usa
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom

In article 1993Apr322110125314midwayuchicagoedu shoumidwayuchicagoedu writes
In article 1pi0dhINN8ubdsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational it
is other people who determine that by examining their arguments
[]
No  I  expected it Youve set yourself up a wonderful little
world where a bigot is whomever you say it is  This is very 
comfortable for youimagine never having to entertain an
argument against your belief system  Simply accuse the person
making of being a bigot  

Well this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over
into altatheism where we spend most of our time entertaining
arguments against our belief system without resorting to accusing
others of bigotry  Its somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry
happens in this instance to have originated in recscouting since I
always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity  I
understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who
happen to be of a different race religion ethnic background sex or
other inconsequential characteristics  All the evidence Ive seen
indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are
exactly such inconsequential characteristics  Thus pending further
evidence I conclude that those who show prejudice against such people
are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are
discriminatory
 
Jim Perry   perrydsinccom   Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions  For a nominal fee they can be yours

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 22

In article <C5LDoD.7pC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu writes:
>allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
>down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
>expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
>originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
>was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
>deceleration.

Actually, Hiten wasn't originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all,
so it indeed didn't have much fuel on hand.  The lunar-orbit mission was
an afterthought, after Hagoromo (a tiny subsatellite deployed by Hiten
during a lunar flyby) had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion
into lunar orbit couldn't be positively confirmed.

It should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages.  It takes
a long time, and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit.
If you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit, you do have
to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel, although it is reduced from
what you'd need for the brute-force approach.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 22

In article  rlsuihepahepuiucedu writes
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration

Actually Hiten wasnt originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all
so it indeed didnt have much fuel on hand  The lunarorbit mission was
an afterthought after Hagoromo a tiny subsatellite deployed by Hiten
during a lunar flyby had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion
into lunar orbit couldnt be positively confirmed

It should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages  It takes
a long time and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit
If you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit you do have
to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel although it is reduced from
what youd need for the bruteforce approach
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
              IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
Lines: 91

In <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>>Level 5?  Out of how many? ...
>>
>>... Also keep in mind that it was
>>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>>did the whole process by hand...
>
>I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
>software-development process *before* the standdown.  Fred is basically
>correct:  no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
>care.  But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
>the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people.  (He
>also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
>pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)
>
>Among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things
>right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure
>during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure.
>As a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted
>on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero.
>
>As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
>Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
>experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
>(None of the experimenters could afford it.)
>--
>All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
>
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: Wingert@VNET.IBM.com (Bret Wingert)
            <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu>

In <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>>Level 5?  Out of how many? ...
>>
>>... Also keep in mind that it was
>>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>>did the whole process by hand...
>
>I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
>software-development process *before* the standdown.  Fred is basically
>correct:  no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
>care.  But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
>the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people.  (He
>also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
>pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)
>
>As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
>Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
>experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
 ========================================================================
A couple of points on this thread.

1. We have been using our processes since way before Challenger.  Challenger
   in and of it self did not uncover flaws.

2. What Mr. Spencer says is by and large true.  We have a process that is
   not dependent on "sophisticated tools"  (CASE tools?).  However, tools
   cannot fix a bad process.  Also, tool support for HAL/S (the Shuttle
   Language) is somewhat limited.

3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
   This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.

4. Feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info
   on our software development process.

Bret Wingert


(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077


Bret Wingert


(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077



after prepro  From WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert
Subject Re Level 5
Organization IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
              IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
Lines 91

In  Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 
Level 5  Out of how many 

 Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown  they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand

I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown  Fred is basically
correct  no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care  But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people  He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet

Among other things the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major preflight simulations and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an inflight failure
As a result the number of majorsimulation failures could be counted
on one hand and the number of inflight failures was zero

As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
None of the experimenters could afford it

All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom WingertVNETIBMcom Bret Wingert
            

In  Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 
Level 5  Out of how many 

 Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown  they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand

I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown  Fred is basically
correct  no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care  But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people  He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet

As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
 
A couple of points on this thread

1 We have been using our processes since way before Challenger  Challenger
   in and of it self did not uncover flaws

2 What Mr Spencer says is by and large true  We have a process that is
   not dependent on sophisticated tools  CASE tools  However tools
   cannot fix a bad process  Also tool support for HALS the Shuttle
   Language is somewhat limited

3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
   This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA

4 Feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info
   on our software development process

Bret Wingert


7132827534
FAX 7132828077


Bret Wingert


7132827534
FAX 7132828077



preprocess doc  From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 40

timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes: >

>OK, you have disproved one thing, but you failed to "nail" me.
>
>See, nowhere in my post did I claim that something _must_ be believed in.  Here
>are the three possibilities:
>
>	1) God exists. 
>	2) God does not exist.
>	3) I don't know.
>
>My attack was on strong atheism, (2).  Since I am (3), I guess by what you said
>below that makes me a weak atheist.
  [snip]
>First of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy.  Why not try to be more honest
>and include my sentence afterwards that 

Honest, it just ended like that, I swear!  

Hmmmm...I recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and
rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls
people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr

"Clam" Bake Timmons = Bill "Shit Stirrer Connor"

Q.E.D.

Whirr click whirr...Frank O'Dwyer might also be contained
in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr

"Killfile" Keith Allen Schneider = Frank "Closet Theist" O'Dwyer =

the mind reels.  Maybe they're all Bobby Mozumder.

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  408/428-3553

Kids, please don't try this at home.  Remember, I post professionally.


after prepro  From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 40

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes 

OK you have disproved one thing but you failed to nail me

See nowhere in my post did I claim that something _must_ be believed in  Here
are the three possibilities

	1 God exists 
	2 God does not exist
	3 I dont know

My attack was on strong atheism 2  Since I am 3 I guess by what you said
below that makes me a weak atheist
  [snip]
First of all you seem to be a reasonable guy  Why not try to be more honest
and include my sentence afterwards that 

Honest it just ended like that I swear  

HmmmmI recognize the warning signsalternating polite and
rudecoming into newsgroup with huge chip on shouldercalls
people names and then makes nicewhirrrclickwhirrr

Clam Bake Timmons  Bill Shit Stirrer Connor

QED

Whirr click whirrFrank ODwyer might also be contained
in that shellpop stack to determinewhirrclickwhirr

Killfile Keith Allen Schneider  Frank Closet Theist ODwyer 

the mind reels  Maybe theyre all Bobby Mozumder

 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  4084283553

Kids please dont try this at home  Remember I post professionally


preprocess doc  Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 46

In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu) snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
)
)That's your mistake.  It would be better for the children if the mother
)raised the child.
)
)One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
)because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more virile men.
)Compare that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my
)point.
)
)But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
)stayed home and raised the child.  That is something false made up by
)feminists that seek a status above men.  You do not recognize the fact
)that men and women have natural differences.  Not just physically, but
)mentally also.
) [...]
)Your logic.  I didn't say americans were the cause of worlds problems, I
)said atheists.
) [...]
)Becuase they have no code of ethics to follow, which means that atheists
)can do whatever they want which they feel is right.  Something totally
)based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational
)thinking.
) [...]
)Yeah.  I didn't say that all atheists are bad, but that they could be
)bad or good, with nothing to define bad or good.
)

  Awright!  Bobby's back, in all of his shit-for-brains glory.  Just
  when I thought he'd turned the corner of progress, his Thorazine
  prescription runs out.  

  I'd put him in my kill file, but man, this is good stuff.  I wish
  I had his staying power.

  Fortunately, I learned not to take him too seriously long,long,long
  ago.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  Subject Re islamic authority over women
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 46

In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

Thats your mistake  It would be better for the children if the mother
raised the child

One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
because of the love of their mom  It makes for more virile men
Compare that with how homos are raised  Do a study and you will get my
point

But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
stayed home and raised the child  That is something false made up by
feminists that seek a status above men  You do not recognize the fact
that men and women have natural differences  Not just physically but
mentally also
 []
Your logic  I didnt say americans were the cause of worlds problems I
said atheists
 []
Becuase they have no code of ethics to follow which means that atheists
can do whatever they want which they feel is right  Something totally
based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational
thinking
 []
Yeah  I didnt say that all atheists are bad but that they could be
bad or good with nothing to define bad or good


  Awright  Bobbys back in all of his shitforbrains glory  Just
  when I thought hed turned the corner of progress his Thorazine
  prescription runs out  

  Id put him in my kill file but man this is good stuff  I wish
  I had his staying power

  Fortunately I learned not to take him too seriously longlonglong
  ago

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 50

In article <1993Apr10.123858.25059@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:

>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

>> Khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of 
>>British "leaders", so what? 

>>THE QUR'AN is the basis of judgement. Khomenei was clearly a heretic
>>by the standards of the Qur'an. End of story.

>Could you be a little more specific as to exactly why Khomanei was a
>heretic and a jerk as judged by the Koran.  I have no liking for the
>guy, but as far as I know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings
>of the Koran, or at least so I'm told by several Iranian research
>students that I share an office with.

>It is easy and convenient for you to denounce him.  But I have the 
>feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you
>suggest.

I have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again. Khomeini put a 
price on the head of someone in another country, this makes him a jerk
as well as an international outlaw. Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders (the Twelve Imams) who
are free of error or sin. This makes him a heretic. In the Qur'an 
Muhammad is chastised for error directly by God; the Qur'an says that
Muhammad is the greatest example of proper Islamic behavior; thus
no muslim is free from error. 


>As usual there seems to be almost as many Islamic viewpoints as there
>are Muslims.  

Perhaps it seems so to you, but this is hardly the case. There is
widespread agreement about matters of Islam. There certainly are
many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly Islamic in
and of themselves, but this is so for any large group of people
under the same name. 

>It all comes back to the Koran being so imprecise in its wording.

The Qur'an is not particularly imprecise in wording, though it is true
that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of
many words. However, as an entire text the Qur'an makes its meanings
precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come
to agreement about them. 



Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 50

In article 1993Apr1012385825059bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes

Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote

 Khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of 
British leaders so what 

THE QURAN is the basis of judgement Khomenei was clearly a heretic
by the standards of the Quran End of story

Could you be a little more specific as to exactly why Khomanei was a
heretic and a jerk as judged by the Koran  I have no liking for the
guy but as far as I know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings
of the Koran or at least so Im told by several Iranian research
students that I share an office with

It is easy and convenient for you to denounce him  But I have the 
feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you
suggest

I have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again Khomeini put a 
price on the head of someone in another country this makes him a jerk
as well as an international outlaw Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders the Twelve Imams who
are free of error or sin This makes him a heretic In the Quran 
Muhammad is chastised for error directly by God the Quran says that
Muhammad is the greatest example of proper Islamic behavior thus
no muslim is free from error 


As usual there seems to be almost as many Islamic viewpoints as there
are Muslims  

Perhaps it seems so to you but this is hardly the case There is
widespread agreement about matters of Islam There certainly are
many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly Islamic in
and of themselves but this is so for any large group of people
under the same name 

It all comes back to the Koran being so imprecise in its wording

The Quran is not particularly imprecise in wording though it is true
that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of
many words However as an entire text the Quran makes its meanings
precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come
to agreement about them 



Gregg

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 27

In article <1qlb7oINN684@shelley.u.washington.edu> 
jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan) writes:


>20:52 P.S.T.  I come to my senses and accept the all-knowing
>wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah.  Not only that, but Allah 
>himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. Allah rolls a
>few bones and we get down.  Then Allah gets out the Crisco, bends 
>over, and invites me to take a spin around the block.  Wow.


>20:56 P.S.T.  I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a 
>commitment than I'm ready for, so I say "Man, I've got some
>programming to do.  Gotta go.  I'll call you."


>20:59 P.S.T   Thinking it over, I renounce Islam.

What loyalty!

Jim, it seems you've been reading a little too much Russell Hoban
lately. As Hemingway said, my imitators always imitate the _bad_
aspects of my writing. Hoban would, no doubt, say the same here.



Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 27

In article 1qlb7oINN684shelleyuwashingtonedu 
jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan writes


2052 PST  I come to my senses and accept the allknowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah  Not only that but Allah 
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down  Then Allah gets out the Crisco bends 
over and invites me to take a spin around the block  Wow


2056 PST  I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a 
commitment than Im ready for so I say Man Ive got some
programming to do  Gotta go  Ill call you


2059 PST   Thinking it over I renounce Islam

What loyalty

Jim it seems youve been reading a little too much Russell Hoban
lately As Hemingway said my imitators always imitate the _bad_
aspects of my writing Hoban would no doubt say the same here



Gregg

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 40

In article <1993Apr15.163317.20805@cs.nott.ac.uk> eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (C.Wainwright) writes:
>In article <115437@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
 
>|> The authorities I am referring to is the authority of the world
>|> Islamic community over itself. My point was simply that Islamic
>|> law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that 
>|> Islamic law may not be enforcable in non-Islamic countries.

>Muslims residing in the UK may decide to be 'tried' (or whatever) by the
>Islamic community, but their rulings have no legal consequences in these
>isles.  

It's not really their _decision_ to be tried. The rulings _do_ have
legal consequences, but only in Islamic law and not in UK law (this
should be obvious). Enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making
of a judgment. Take for example the judgments of the World Court. This
is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no
physical or economic effect but which _are_ important despite the fact
that their judgments cannot be enforced

>The person may be excommunicated (or similar) but if it decided to 
>mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking UK laws
>itself, and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution. 


Of course, have you read any of this thread before this post? 


> To ignore
>the country's laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous
>to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion.

Of course, it is a sort of anarchism. Anarchism is explicitly against
Islam. Thank you for your well reasoned response, but it is beside the
points I've been making in this thread. 


Gregg



after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution worldpublic
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 40

In article 1993Apr1516331720805csnottacuk eczcawmipsnottacuk CWainwright writes
In article 115437buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
 The authorities I am referring to is the authority of the world
 Islamic community over itself My point was simply that Islamic
 law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that 
 Islamic law may not be enforcable in nonIslamic countries

Muslims residing in the UK may decide to be tried or whatever by the
Islamic community but their rulings have no legal consequences in these
isles  

Its not really their _decision_ to be tried The rulings _do_ have
legal consequences but only in Islamic law and not in UK law this
should be obvious Enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making
of a judgment Take for example the judgments of the World Court This
is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no
physical or economic effect but which _are_ important despite the fact
that their judgments cannot be enforced

The person may be excommunicated or similar but if it decided to 
mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking UK laws
itself and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution 


Of course have you read any of this thread before this post 


 To ignore
the countrys laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous
to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion

Of course it is a sort of anarchism Anarchism is explicitly against
Islam Thank you for your well reasoned response but it is beside the
points Ive been making in this thread 


Gregg



preprocess doc  From: ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu (George Hastings)
Subject: Re: Soviet space book
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Richmond)
Lines: 13

     I have received my copies of Cosmonautics 1990 and
Cosmonautics 1991, as well as Soviet Space 1990 and Space
Station [MIR] Handbook from Aerospace Ambassadors with no
problem.
     I'm getting ready to FAX them some material in Huntsville,
and I'll include a printout of your inquiry.
 ____________________________________________________________
| George Hastings		ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu |  
| Space Science Teacher		72407.22@compuserve.com      |  If it's not
| Mathematics & Science Center 	STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533   |   FUN, it's
| 2304 Hartman Street		OFFICE:       804-343-6525   |  probably not
| Richmond, VA 23223		FAX:          804-343-6529   |    SCIENCE!
 ------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu George Hastings
Subject Re Soviet space book
Organization Virginias Public Education Network Richmond
Lines 13

     I have received my copies of Cosmonautics 1990 and
Cosmonautics 1991 as well as Soviet Space 1990 and Space
Station [MIR] Handbook from Aerospace Ambassadors with no
problem
     Im getting ready to FAX them some material in Huntsville
and Ill include a printout of your inquiry
 ____________________________________________________________
 George Hastings		ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu   
 Space Science Teacher		7240722compuservecom        If its not
 Mathematics  Science Center 	STAREACH BBS 8043436533      FUN its
 2304 Hartman Street		OFFICE       8043436525     probably not
 Richmond VA 23223		FAX          8043436529       SCIENCE
 

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql667INN54a@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >I don't expect the lion to know, or not know anything of the kind.
|> >In fact, I don't have any evidence that lions ever consider such 
|> >issues.
|> >And that, of course, is why I don't think you can assign moral
|> >significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions.
|> 
|> What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
|> That is, it doesn't take much work to be moral, but it certainly does to
|> be immoral (in some cases).

That's the craziest thing I ever heard.   Are you serious?

	"it doesn't take much work to be moral?"

|> Also, I've said that morality is a remnant of evolution.  

Really?   And that's why people discuss morality on a daily basis?
Because it's a kind of evolutionary hangover, like your little toe?

|> Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal 
|> kingdom.

This must be some novel use of the phrase "based on" with which I
am not sufficiently familiar.    What do you mean by "based on" and 
what is the significance of it for your argument?

|> 
|> >>So you are basically saying that you think a "moral" is an undefinable
|> >>term, and that "moral systems" don't exist?  If we can't agree on a
|> >>definition of these terms, then how can we hope to discuss them?
|> >
|> >No, it's perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
|> >is in *my* system, but that I can't speak for other people.
|> 
|> But, this doesn't get us anywhere.  Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
|> unless you can share them or discuss them...

Well, we can.   What would you like to know about my particular moral
beliefs?

If you raise a topic I've never considered, I'll be quite happy to 
invent a moral belief out of thin air.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 I dont expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind
 In fact I dont have any evidence that lions ever consider such 
 issues
 And that of course is why I dont think you can assign moral
 significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions
 
 What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior
 That is it doesnt take much work to be moral but it certainly does to
 be immoral in some cases

Thats the craziest thing I ever heard   Are you serious

	it doesnt take much work to be moral

 Also Ive said that morality is a remnant of evolution  

Really   And thats why people discuss morality on a daily basis
Because its a kind of evolutionary hangover like your little toe

 Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal 
 kingdom

This must be some novel use of the phrase based on with which I
am not sufficiently familiar    What do you mean by based on and 
what is the significance of it for your argument

 
 So you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable
 term and that moral systems dont exist  If we cant agree on a
 definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them
 
 No its perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
 is in my system but that I cant speak for other people
 
 But this doesnt get us anywhere  Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
 unless you can share them or discuss them

Well we can   What would you like to know about my particular moral
beliefs

If you raise a topic Ive never considered Ill be quite happy to 
invent a moral belief out of thin air

jon

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 12/15 - Controversial Questions
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.controversy_733694426
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:00:26 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 252
Supersedes: <controversy_730956589@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu

Archive-name: space/controversy
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:06 $

CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS

    These issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being
    offered. The summaries below attempt to represent the position on which
    much of the net community has settled. Please DON'T bring them up again
    unless there's something truly new to be discussed. The net can't set
    public policy, that's what your representatives are for.


    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SATURN V PLANS

    Despite a widespread belief to the contrary, the Saturn V blueprints
    have not been lost. They are kept at Marshall Space Flight Center on
    microfilm.

    The problem in re-creating the Saturn V is not finding the drawings, it
    is finding vendors who can supply mid-1960's vintage hardware (like
    guidance system components), and the fact that the launch pads and VAB
    have been converted to Space Shuttle use, so you have no place to launch
    from.

    By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re-modify
    the launch pads, you may as well have started from scratch with a clean
    sheet design.


    WHY DATA FROM SPACE MISSIONS ISN'T IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE

    Investigators associated with NASA missions are allowed exclusive access
    for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an
    opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being
    "scooped" by people uninvolved in the mission. However, NASA frequently
    releases examples (in non-digital form, e.g. photos) to the public early
    in a mission.


    RISKS OF NUCLEAR (RTG) POWER SOURCES FOR SPACE PROBES

    There has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to
    block the Galileo and Ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium
    thermal sources being dangerous. Numerous studies claim that even in
    worst-case scenarios (shuttle explosion during launch, or accidental
    reentry at interplanetary velocities), the risks are extremely small.
    Two interesting data points are (1) The May 1968 loss of two SNAP 19B2
    RTGs, which landed intact in the Pacific Ocean after a Nimbus B weather
    satellite failed to reach orbit. The fuel was recovered after 5 months
    with no release of plutonium. (2) In April 1970, the Apollo 13 lunar
    module reentered the atmosphere and its SNAP 27 RTG heat source, which
    was jettisoned, fell intact into the 20,000 feet deep Tonga Trench in
    the Pacific Ocean. The corrosion resistant materials of the RTG are
    expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to 10
    half-lives of the Pu-238 fuel or about 870 years [DOE 1980].

    To make your own informed judgement, some references you may wish to
    pursue are:

    A good review of the technical facts and issues is given by Daniel
    Salisbury in "Radiation Risk and Planetary Exploration-- The RTG
    Controversy," *Planetary Report*, May-June 1987, pages 3-7. Another good
    article, which also reviews the events preceding Galileo's launch,
    "Showdown at Pad 39-B," by Robert G. Nichols, appeared in the November
    1989 issue of *Ad Astra*. (Both magazines are published by pro-space
    organizations, the Planetary Society and the National Space Society
    respectively.)

    Gordon L Chipman, Jr., "Advanced Space Nuclear Systems" (AAS 82-261), in
    *Developing the Space Frontier*, edited by Albert Naumann and Grover
    Alexander, Univelt, 1983, p. 193-213.

    "Hazards from Plutonium Toxicity", by Bernard L. Cohen, Health Physics,
    Vol 32 (may) 1977, page 359-379.

    NUS Corporation, Safety Status Report for the Ulysses Mission: Risk
    Analysis (Book 1). Document number is NUS 5235; there is no GPO #;
    published Jan 31, 1990.

    NASA Office of Space Science and Applications, *Final Environmental
    Impact Statement for the Ulysses Mission (Tier 2)*, (no serial number or
    GPO number, but probably available from NTIS or NASA) June 1990.

    [DOE 1980] U.S.  Department of Energy, *Transuranic Elements in the
    Environment*, Wayne C.  Hanson, editor; DOE Document No.  DOE/TIC-22800;
    Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., April 1980.)


    IMPACT OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON THE OZONE LAYER

    From time to time, claims are made that chemicals released from
    the Space Shuttle's Solid Rocket Boosters (SRBs) are responsible
    for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer. Studies
    indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact, both in
    absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources. The
    remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted
    study, Charles Jackman.

    The atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the
    stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups, and was
    organized by Dr. Michael Prather, NASA/Goddard Institute for Space
    Studies.  The three groups involved Michael Prather and Maria Garcia
    (NASA/GISS), Charlie Jackman and Anne Douglass (NASA/Goddard Space
    Flight Center), and Malcolm Ko and Dak Sze (Atmospheric and
    Environmental Research, Inc.).  The effort was to look at the effects
    of the space shuttle and Titan rockets on the stratosphere.

    The following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine:

       Industrial sources:    300,000,000 kilograms/year
	  Natural sources:     75,000,000 kilograms/year
	  Shuttle sources:	  725,000 kilograms/year

    The shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles and 6 Titan rockets are
    launched yearly. Thus the launches would add less than 0.25% to the
    total stratospheric chlorine sources.

    The effect on ozone is minimal:  global yearly average total ozone would
    be decreased by 0.0065%. This is much less than total ozone variability
    associated with volcanic activity and solar flares.

    The influence of human-made chlorine products on ozone is computed
    by atmospheric model calculations to be a 1% decrease in globally
    averaged ozone between 1980 and 1990. The influence of the space shuttle and
    Titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible.  The launch
    schedule of the Space Shuttle and Titan rockets would need to be
    increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about
    the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons
    do at the present time.

    Theoretical results of this study have been published in _The Space
    Shuttle's Impact on the Stratosphere_, MJ Prather, MM Garcia, AR
    Douglass, CH Jackman, M.K.W. Ko and N.D. Sze, Journal of Geophysical
    Research, 95, 18583-18590, 1990.

    Charles Jackman, Atmospheric Chemistry and Dynamics Branch,
    Code 916, NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center,
    Greenbelt, MD  20771

    Also see _Chemical Rockets and the Environment_, A McDonald, R Bennett,
    J Hinshaw, and M Barnes, Aerospace America, May 1991.


    HOW LONG CAN A HUMAN LIVE UNPROTECTED IN SPACE

    If you *don't* try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a
    minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your
    breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to
    watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your
    Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal
    experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no
    immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do
    not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.

    Various minor problems (sunburn, possibly "the bends", certainly some
    [mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue)
    start after ten seconds or so. At some point you lose consciousness from
    lack of oxygen. Injuries accumulate. After perhaps one or two minutes,
    you're dying. The limits are not really known.

    References:

    _The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near Vacuum_,
    Alfred G. Koestler ed., NASA CR-329 (Nov 1965).

    _Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum Environment_, R.W.
    Bancroft, J.E. Dunn, eds, Report SAM-TR-65-48 (June 1965), USAF School
    of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks AFB, Texas.


    HOW THE CHALLENGER ASTRONAUTS DIED

    The Challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion. This is
    a well-documented fact; see the Rogers Commission report, for example.
    What looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank
    came apart. The forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the
    astronauts, never mind destroy their bodies, according to the Kerwin
    team's medical/forensic report.

    The astronauts were killed when the more-or-less intact cabin hit the
    water at circa 200MPH, and their bodies then spent several weeks
    underwater. Their remains were recovered, and after the Kerwin team
    examined them, they were sent off to be buried.


    USING THE SHUTTLE BEYOND LOW EARTH ORBIT

    You can't use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low Earth orbit
    because it can't get there. It is big and heavy and does not carry
    enough fuel, even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks.

    Furthermore, it is not particularly sensible to do so, because much of
    that weight is things like wings, which are totally useless except in
    the immediate vicinity of the Earth. The shuttle orbiter is highly
    specialized for travel between Earth's surface and low orbit. Taking it
    higher is enormously costly and wasteful. A much better approach would
    be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized high-orbit
    spacecraft.

    [Yet another concise answer by Henry Spencer.]


    THE "FACE ON MARS"

    There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
    face. It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery:
    35A72 (much more facelike in appearance, and the one more often
    published, with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon) and 70A13
    (with the Sun 27 degrees from the west).

    Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
    artificial, intended to resemble a human, and erected by an
    extraterrestrial civilization. Most other analysts concede that the
    resemblance is most likely accidental. Other Viking images show a
    smiley-faced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
    on Mars. There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society (sorry, don't
    know the address) to study the Face.

    The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely high-resolution
    camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
    question in a few years. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
    best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
    sci.astro.

    V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
    Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. $18 by mail.

    R.R. Pozos, *The Face of Mars*, Chicago Review Press, 1986. [Account of
    an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
    investigate the Face]

    R.C. Hoagland, *The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever*,
    North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California, USA, 1987. [Elaborate
    discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
    form a city]

    M.J. Carlotto, "Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
    Features," *Applied Optics*, 27, pp. 1926-1933, 1987. [Extracts
    three-dimensional model for the Face from the 2-D images]

    M.J. Carlotto & M.C. Stein, "A Method of Searching for Artificial
    Objects on Planetary Surfaces," *Journal of the British Interplanetary
    Society*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p.209-216. [Uses a fractal image
    analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]

    B. O'Leary, "Analysis of Images of the `Face' on Mars and Possible
    Intelligent Origin," *JBIS*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p. 203-208.
    [Lights Carlotto's model from the two angles and shows it's consistent;
    shows that the Face doesn't look facelike if observed from the surface]


NEXT: FAQ #13/15 - Space activist/interest/research groups & space publications

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1215  Controversial Questions
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID cscontroversy_733694426
Expires 6 May 1993 200026 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 252
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu

Archivename spacecontroversy
Lastmodified Date 930401 143906 

CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS

    These issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being
    offered The summaries below attempt to represent the position on which
    much of the net community has settled Please DONT bring them up again
    unless theres something truly new to be discussed The net cant set
    public policy thats what your representatives are for


    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SATURN V PLANS

    Despite a widespread belief to the contrary the Saturn V blueprints
    have not been lost They are kept at Marshall Space Flight Center on
    microfilm

    The problem in recreating the Saturn V is not finding the drawings it
    is finding vendors who can supply mid1960s vintage hardware like
    guidance system components and the fact that the launch pads and VAB
    have been converted to Space Shuttle use so you have no place to launch
    from

    By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and remodify
    the launch pads you may as well have started from scratch with a clean
    sheet design


    WHY DATA FROM SPACE MISSIONS ISNT IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE

    Investigators associated with NASA missions are allowed exclusive access
    for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an
    opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being
    scooped by people uninvolved in the mission However NASA frequently
    releases examples in nondigital form eg photos to the public early
    in a mission


    RISKS OF NUCLEAR RTG POWER SOURCES FOR SPACE PROBES

    There has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to
    block the Galileo and Ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium
    thermal sources being dangerous Numerous studies claim that even in
    worstcase scenarios shuttle explosion during launch or accidental
    reentry at interplanetary velocities the risks are extremely small
    Two interesting data points are 1 The May 1968 loss of two SNAP 19B2
    RTGs which landed intact in the Pacific Ocean after a Nimbus B weather
    satellite failed to reach orbit The fuel was recovered after 5 months
    with no release of plutonium 2 In April 1970 the Apollo 13 lunar
    module reentered the atmosphere and its SNAP 27 RTG heat source which
    was jettisoned fell intact into the 20000 feet deep Tonga Trench in
    the Pacific Ocean The corrosion resistant materials of the RTG are
    expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to 10
    halflives of the Pu238 fuel or about 870 years [DOE 1980]

    To make your own informed judgement some references you may wish to
    pursue are

    A good review of the technical facts and issues is given by Daniel
    Salisbury in Radiation Risk and Planetary Exploration The RTG
    Controversy Planetary Report MayJune 1987 pages 37 Another good
    article which also reviews the events preceding Galileos launch
    Showdown at Pad 39B by Robert G Nichols appeared in the November
    1989 issue of Ad Astra Both magazines are published by prospace
    organizations the Planetary Society and the National Space Society
    respectively

    Gordon L Chipman Jr Advanced Space Nuclear Systems AAS 82261 in
    Developing the Space Frontier edited by Albert Naumann and Grover
    Alexander Univelt 1983 p 193213

    Hazards from Plutonium Toxicity by Bernard L Cohen Health Physics
    Vol 32 may 1977 page 359379

    NUS Corporation Safety Status Report for the Ulysses Mission Risk
    Analysis Book 1 Document number is NUS 5235 there is no GPO 
    published Jan 31 1990

    NASA Office of Space Science and Applications Final Environmental
    Impact Statement for the Ulysses Mission Tier 2 no serial number or
    GPO number but probably available from NTIS or NASA June 1990

    [DOE 1980] US  Department of Energy Transuranic Elements in the
    Environment Wayne C  Hanson editor DOE Document No  DOETIC22800
    Government Printing Office Washington DC April 1980


    IMPACT OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON THE OZONE LAYER

    From time to time claims are made that chemicals released from
    the Space Shuttles Solid Rocket Boosters SRBs are responsible
    for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer Studies
    indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact both in
    absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources The
    remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted
    study Charles Jackman

    The atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the
    stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups and was
    organized by Dr Michael Prather NASAGoddard Institute for Space
    Studies  The three groups involved Michael Prather and Maria Garcia
    NASAGISS Charlie Jackman and Anne Douglass NASAGoddard Space
    Flight Center and Malcolm Ko and Dak Sze Atmospheric and
    Environmental Research Inc  The effort was to look at the effects
    of the space shuttle and Titan rockets on the stratosphere

    The following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine

       Industrial sources    300000000 kilogramsyear
	  Natural sources     75000000 kilogramsyear
	  Shuttle sources	  725000 kilogramsyear

    The shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles and 6 Titan rockets are
    launched yearly Thus the launches would add less than 025 to the
    total stratospheric chlorine sources

    The effect on ozone is minimal  global yearly average total ozone would
    be decreased by 00065 This is much less than total ozone variability
    associated with volcanic activity and solar flares

    The influence of humanmade chlorine products on ozone is computed
    by atmospheric model calculations to be a 1 decrease in globally
    averaged ozone between 1980 and 1990 The influence of the space shuttle and
    Titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible  The launch
    schedule of the Space Shuttle and Titan rockets would need to be
    increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about
    the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons
    do at the present time

    Theoretical results of this study have been published in _The Space
    Shuttles Impact on the Stratosphere_ MJ Prather MM Garcia AR
    Douglass CH Jackman MKW Ko and ND Sze Journal of Geophysical
    Research 95 1858318590 1990

    Charles Jackman Atmospheric Chemistry and Dynamics Branch
    Code 916 NASAGoddard Space Flight Center
    Greenbelt MD  20771

    Also see _Chemical Rockets and the Environment_ A McDonald R Bennett
    J Hinshaw and M Barnes Aerospace America May 1991


    HOW LONG CAN A HUMAN LIVE UNPROTECTED IN SPACE

    If you dont try to hold your breath exposure to space for half a
    minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury Holding your
    breath is likely to damage your lungs something scuba divers have to
    watch out for when ascending and youll have eardrum trouble if your
    Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up but theory predicts  and animal
    experiments confirm  that otherwise exposure to vacuum causes no
    immediate injury You do not explode Your blood does not boil You do
    not freeze You do not instantly lose consciousness

    Various minor problems sunburn possibly the bends certainly some
    [mild reversible painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue
    start after ten seconds or so At some point you lose consciousness from
    lack of oxygen Injuries accumulate After perhaps one or two minutes
    youre dying The limits are not really known

    References

    _The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near Vacuum_
    Alfred G Koestler ed NASA CR329 Nov 1965

    _Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum Environment_ RW
    Bancroft JE Dunn eds Report SAMTR6548 June 1965 USAF School
    of Aerospace Medicine Brooks AFB Texas


    HOW THE CHALLENGER ASTRONAUTS DIED

    The Challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion This is
    a welldocumented fact see the Rogers Commission report for example
    What looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank
    came apart The forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the
    astronauts never mind destroy their bodies according to the Kerwin
    teams medicalforensic report

    The astronauts were killed when the moreorless intact cabin hit the
    water at circa 200MPH and their bodies then spent several weeks
    underwater Their remains were recovered and after the Kerwin team
    examined them they were sent off to be buried


    USING THE SHUTTLE BEYOND LOW EARTH ORBIT

    You cant use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low Earth orbit
    because it cant get there It is big and heavy and does not carry
    enough fuel even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks

    Furthermore it is not particularly sensible to do so because much of
    that weight is things like wings which are totally useless except in
    the immediate vicinity of the Earth The shuttle orbiter is highly
    specialized for travel between Earths surface and low orbit Taking it
    higher is enormously costly and wasteful A much better approach would
    be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized highorbit
    spacecraft

    [Yet another concise answer by Henry Spencer]


    THE FACE ON MARS

    There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
    face It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery
    35A72 much more facelike in appearance and the one more often
    published with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon and 70A13
    with the Sun 27 degrees from the west

    Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
    artificial intended to resemble a human and erected by an
    extraterrestrial civilization Most other analysts concede that the
    resemblance is most likely accidental Other Viking images show a
    smileyfaced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
    on Mars There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society sorry dont
    know the address to study the Face

    The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely highresolution
    camera and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
    question in a few years In the meantime speculation about the Face is
    best carried on in the altnet group altalienvisitors not scispace or
    sciastro

    V DiPeitro and G Molenaar Unusual Martian Surface Features Mars
    Research PO Box 284 Glen Dale Maryland USA 1982 18 by mail

    RR Pozos The Face of Mars Chicago Review Press 1986 [Account of
    an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
    investigate the Face]

    RC Hoagland The Monuments of Mars A City on the Edge of Forever
    North Atlantic Books Berkeley California USA 1987 [Elaborate
    discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
    form a city]

    MJ Carlotto Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
    Features Applied Optics 27 pp 19261933 1987 [Extracts
    threedimensional model for the Face from the 2D images]

    MJ Carlotto  MC Stein A Method of Searching for Artificial
    Objects on Planetary Surfaces Journal of the British Interplanetary
    Society Vol 43 no 5 May 1990 p209216 [Uses a fractal image
    analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]

    B OLeary Analysis of Images of the `Face on Mars and Possible
    Intelligent Origin JBIS Vol 43 no 5 May 1990 p 203208
    [Lights Carlottos model from the two angles and shows its consistent
    shows that the Face doesnt look facelike if observed from the surface]


NEXT FAQ 1315  Space activistinterestresearch groups  space publications

preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: <SEC108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Why the bible?
Lines: 38

      One thing I think is interesting about alt.athiesm is the fact that
without bible-thumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup.
It almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to
tear apart. Oh well, that little tidbit aside here is what I really wanted
write about.

      How can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible? If you
want to be religious aren't there more plausable books out there? Seriously,
the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each
other. One minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next
it says not to kill at all. I think that if xtians really want to follow a
deity they should pick one that can be consistent, unlike the last one they
invented.

      For people who say Jesus was the son of god, didn't god say not to
EVER put ANYONE else before him? Looks like you did just that. Didn't god
say not to make any symbols or idols? What are crosses then? Don't you think
that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track?

Was Jesus illiterate? Why didn't he write anything? Anyone know?

      I honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that
it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the
poorer quality ones to boot. The only reason xtianity escaped the middle east
is because a certain roman who's wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome
xtian after a bad dream.

      If this posting keeps one person, just ONE person, from standing on a
streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell I will be happy.





*** Only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life. ***
***                                    Dr. Clayton Forester             ***
***                                       Mad Scientist                 ***


after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From 
Subject Why the bible
Lines 38

      One thing I think is interesting about altathiesm is the fact that
without biblethumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup
It almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to
tear apart Oh well that little tidbit aside here is what I really wanted
write about

      How can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible If you
want to be religious arent there more plausable books out there Seriously
the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each
other One minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next
it says not to kill at all I think that if xtians really want to follow a
deity they should pick one that can be consistent unlike the last one they
invented

      For people who say Jesus was the son of god didnt god say not to
EVER put ANYONE else before him Looks like you did just that Didnt god
say not to make any symbols or idols What are crosses then Dont you think
that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track

Was Jesus illiterate Why didnt he write anything Anyone know

      I honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that
it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the
poorer quality ones to boot The only reason xtianity escaped the middle east
is because a certain roman whos wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome
xtian after a bad dream

      If this posting keeps one person just ONE person from standing on a
streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell I will be happy





 Only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life 
                                    Dr Clayton Forester             
                                       Mad Scientist                 


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Space Design Movies?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.124722.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

Is there a few Grasp pictures of space related items, namely Space Station
Designs, so you can see the "finished" revolt around..

If you don't know what a grasp prograsm is.. Check out some adult entertainment
files and see what I mean.. Or maybe geta few GIF files and create a "slide
shows" (I think Cshow can do this).. 

I liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a AutoCAD program or to see
it revolt around and look at it.
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Space Design Movies
ArticleID aurora1993Apr231247221
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

Is there a few Grasp pictures of space related items namely Space Station
Designs so you can see the finished revolt around

If you dont know what a grasp prograsm is Check out some adult entertainment
files and see what I mean Or maybe geta few GIF files and create a slide
shows I think Cshow can do this 

I liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a AutoCAD program or to see
it revolt around and look at it

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql5snINN4vm@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
|> >>to be moral one?
|> >
|> >I like to think that many things are possible.   Explain to me
|> >how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
|> 
|> For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...

Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
would be nothing voluntary about it.

|> 
|> >>That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
|> >>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard 
|> >>it?
|> >
|> >Weaker than that.   There must be the possibility that the
|> >organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can
|> >consider alternatives.
|> 
|> So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
|> beings mimics theirs?

You are starting to get the point.   Mimicry is not necessarily the 
same as the action being imitated.   A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly" 
isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.

|> And, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence?

See above.

|> Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but 
|> they don't.

They do.   I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this, but you seem to have a very short memory.

|> Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
|> most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?

I'm saying:

	"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not 
	just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."

It's right there in the posting you are replying to.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
 to be moral one
 
 I like to think that many things are possible   Explain to me
 how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
 
 For example if it were instinctive not to murder

Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
would be nothing voluntary about it

 
 That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
 the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard 
 it
 
 Weaker than that   There must be the possibility that the
 organism  its not just people we are talking about  can
 consider alternatives
 
 So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
 beings mimics theirs

You are starting to get the point   Mimicry is not necessarily the 
same as the action being imitated   A Parrot saying Pretty Polly 
isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly

 And how much emphasis do you place on intelligence

See above

 Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but 
 they dont

They do   I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this but you seem to have a very short memory

 Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
 most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do

Im saying

	There must be the possibility that the organism  its not 
	just people we are talking about  can consider alternatives

Its right there in the posting you are replying to

jon

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Moraltiy? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 34
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>>>What if I act morally for no particular reason?  Then am I moral?  What
>>>>if morality is instinctive, as in most animals?
>>>Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to 
>>>assume your conclusion.
>>Which conclusion?
>You conclusion - correct me if I err - that the behaviour which is
>instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system.

See, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here.  Earlier, you said
that it must be a conscious act.  By your definition, no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality.  You are trying to apply
human terms to non-humans.  I think that even if someone is not conscious
of an alternative, this does not prevent his behavior from being moral.

>>You don't think that morality is a behavior pattern?  What is human
>>morality?  A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
>>pattern.  That is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral.
>You keep getting this backwards.  *You* are trying to show that
>the behaviour pattern is a morality.  Whether morality is a behavior 
>pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for
>example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would
>not call a morality.

I try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown.

And, morality can be thought of a large class of princples.  It could be
defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish.  However,
it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics.  It is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least
some free will.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Moraltiy was Re What if I act morally for no particular reason  Then am I moral  What
if morality is instinctive as in most animals
Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to 
assume your conclusion
Which conclusion
You conclusion  correct me if I err  that the behaviour which is
instinctive in animals is a natural moral system

See we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here  Earlier you said
that it must be a conscious act  By your definition no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality  You are trying to apply
human terms to nonhumans  I think that even if someone is not conscious
of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral

You dont think that morality is a behavior pattern  What is human
morality  A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
pattern  That is we enforce a certain behavior as moral
You keep getting this backwards  You are trying to show that
the behaviour pattern is a morality  Whether morality is a behavior 
pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for
example the motions of the planets that most all people would
not call a morality

I try to show it but by your definition it cant be shown

And morality can be thought of a large class of princples  It could be
defined in terms of many thingsthe laws of physics if you wish  However
it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics  It is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least
some free will

keith

preprocess doc  From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 15

As for SF and advertising in space. There is a romantic episode
in Mead's "The Big Ball of Wax" where the lovers are watching 
the constellation Pepsi Cola rising over the horizon and noting
the some 'stars' had slipped cause the Teamsters were on strike.

This was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation
of space mirrors published in Spaceflight in 1986. As the reviews
said: this seems technically feasible, and could be commercially viable
but is it aesthetically desirable?  These days the only aesthetics
that count are the ones you can count!
--
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca

after prepro  From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Space Advertising 2 of 2
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 15

As for SF and advertising in space There is a romantic episode
in Meads The Big Ball of Wax where the lovers are watching 
the constellation Pepsi Cola rising over the horizon and noting
the some stars had slipped cause the Teamsters were on strike

This was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation
of space mirrors published in Spaceflight in 1986 As the reviews
said this seems technically feasible and could be commercially viable
but is it aesthetically desirable  These days the only aesthetics
that count are the ones you can count

Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca

preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
In-Reply-To: 's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15: 50:02 EDT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
Lines: 11

>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:50:02 EDT, <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> said:

J> YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!!  BE
J> PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!

Hmm, I've got my MST3K lunch box, my travel scrabble, and a couple of
kegs of Bass Ale.  I'm all set!  Let's go everybody! 
--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
InReplyTo s message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 15 5002 EDT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
Lines 11

 On Fri 16 Apr 1993 155002 EDT  said

J YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD  BE
J PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION

Hmm Ive got my MST3K lunch box my travel scrabble and a couple of
kegs of Bass Ale  Im all set  Lets go everybody 

Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 19

keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
> 
> Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
> blame the tiger?

As far as I know, tigers are not sentient.  If I were pushed into a pool with
some dolphins and they attacked me, I might be inclined to blame the dolphins
rather than the person doing the pushing, as (a) dolphins are not usually
aggressive and (b) they seem to have well-developed brains and a capacity for
abstract thought.

As a matter of fact, tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes
them.  Of course, if they are in a cage which is far too small, that might
count as provocation...


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re mathew  writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
 
 Not so  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
 blame the tiger

As far as I know tigers are not sentient  If I were pushed into a pool with
some dolphins and they attacked me I might be inclined to blame the dolphins
rather than the person doing the pushing as a dolphins are not usually
aggressive and b they seem to have welldeveloped brains and a capacity for
abstract thought

As a matter of fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes
them  Of course if they are in a cage which is far too small that might
count as provocation


mathew

preprocess doc  From: buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke)
Subject: White House outlines options for station, Russian cooperation
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 71

------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: spacenews@austen.rand.org, cti@austen.rand.org
Subject: White House outlines options for station, Russian cooperation
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 93 16:00:21 PDT
From: Richard Buenneke <buenneke@austen.rand.org>

4/06/93:  GIBBONS OUTLINES SPACE STATION REDESIGN GUIDANCE

NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.
April 6, 1993

RELEASE:  93-64

        Dr.  John H.  Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and Technology
Policy, outlined to the members-designate of the Advisory Committee on the
Redesign of the Space Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance
to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space
station.

        A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7 billion and a
high option of $9 billion will be considered by the committee.  Each
option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development,
operations, utilization, Shuttle integration, facilities, research
operations support, transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds.

        Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within the NASA
budget for the President's new technology investment.  As a result,
station options above $7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting
reductions in the rest of the NASA budget.  For example, a space station
option of $9 billion would require $2 billion in offsets from the NASA
budget over the next 5 years.

        Gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of
the advisory committee.  Generally, the members-designate focused upon
administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted.  They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the
Station Redesign Team is following to develop options for the advisory
committee to consider.

        Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese and Canadians -- have
decided, after consultation, to give "full consideration" to use of
Russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process.

        To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate in the
redesign effort on an as-needed consulting basis, so that the redesign
team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR
and the possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and systems.
The U.S. and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of
the Russian participants in assessing Russian systems and technology.  The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing
station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes.
Careful integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in achieving
that goal.

        Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is committed to the
redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the
science, the technology and the jobs that the space station program
represents.  However, he also is committed to a space station that is well
managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should
be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation."

        NASA Administrator Daniel S.  Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East-West Space Science
Center at the University of Maryland under the leadership of Roald
Sagdeev.

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy

after prepro  From buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke
Subject White House outlines options for station Russian cooperation
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 71

 BlindCarbonCopy

To spacenewsaustenrandorg ctiaustenrandorg
Subject White House outlines options for station Russian cooperation
Date Tue 06 Apr 93 160021 PDT
From Richard Buenneke 

40693  GIBBONS OUTLINES SPACE STATION REDESIGN GUIDANCE

NASA Headquarters Washington DC
April 6 1993

RELEASE  9364

        Dr  John H  Gibbons Director Office of Science and Technology
Policy outlined to the membersdesignate of the Advisory Committee on the
Redesign of the Space Station on April 3 three budget options as guidance
to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space
station

        A low option of 5 billion a midrange option of 7 billion and a
high option of 9 billion will be considered by the committee  Each
option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development
operations utilization Shuttle integration facilities research
operations support transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds

        Over the next 5 years 4 billion is reserved within the NASA
budget for the Presidents new technology investment  As a result
station options above 7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting
reductions in the rest of the NASA budget  For example a space station
option of 9 billion would require 2 billion in offsets from the NASA
budget over the next 5 years

        Gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of
the advisory committee  Generally the membersdesignate focused upon
administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted  They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the
Station Redesign Team is following to develop options for the advisory
committee to consider

        Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners  the Europeans Japanese and Canadians  have
decided after consultation to give full consideration to use of
Russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process

        To that end the Russians will be asked to participate in the
redesign effort on an asneeded consulting basis so that the redesign
team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR
and the possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and systems
The US and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of
the Russian participants in assessing Russian systems and technology  The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing
station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes
Careful integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in achieving
that goal

        Gibbons reiterated that President Clinton is committed to the
redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the
science the technology and the jobs that the space station program
represents  However he also is committed to a space station that is well
managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should
be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation

        NASA Administrator Daniel S  Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the EastWest Space Science
Center at the University of Maryland under the leadership of Roald
Sagdeev

 End of BlindCarbonCopy

preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
In-Reply-To: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM's message of 16 Apr 93 05: 10:18 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
Lines: 26

>>>>> On 16 Apr 93 05:10:18 GMT, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) said:

RB> In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
>EVER HEAR OF
>BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
>is...
>
RB>   
RB>   No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
RB>   later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB>   priest really wears under that chasible.

The same thing Scotsmen where under there kilt.

I'll never forget the day when I was about tweleve and accidently
walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware
drinking beer and watching football.  

Kind of changed my opinion a bit.  They didn't seem so menacing after
that.


--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re thoughts on christians
InReplyTo bobbeviceICOTEKCOMs message of 16 Apr 93 05 1018 GMT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
Lines 26

 On 16 Apr 93 051018 GMT bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine said

RB In article  pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH  If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is

RB   
RB   No thats praying on the young  Preying on the young comes
RB   later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB   priest really wears under that chasible

The same thing Scotsmen where under there kilt

Ill never forget the day when I was about tweleve and accidently
walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware
drinking beer and watching football  

Kind of changed my opinion a bit  They didnt seem so menacing after
that



Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 30

SCOTT D. SAUYET (SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu) wrote:

: Regardless of people's hidden motivations, the stated reasons for many
: wars include religion.  Of course you can always claim that the REAL
: reason was economics, politics, ethnic strife, or whatever.  But the
: fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer
: the heathens.

: If you want to say, for instance, that economics was the chief cause
: of the Crusades, you could certainly make that point.  But someone
: could come along and demonstrate that it was REALLY something else, in
: the same manner you show that it was REALLY not religion.  You could
: in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the Crusades.
:         

Scott,

I don't have to make outrageous claims about religion's affecting and
effecting history, for the purpsoe of a.a, all I have to do point out
that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate
atheism. At no time have I made any statement that religion was the
sole cause of anything, what I have done is point out that those who
do make that kind of claim are mistaken, usually deliberately. 

To credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to
misunderstand human nature, the function of religion and of course,
history. I believe that those who distort history in this way know
exaclty what they're doing, and do it only for affect.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 30

SCOTT D SAUYET SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu wrote

 Regardless of peoples hidden motivations the stated reasons for many
 wars include religion  Of course you can always claim that the REAL
 reason was economics politics ethnic strife or whatever  But the
 fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer
 the heathens

 If you want to say for instance that economics was the chief cause
 of the Crusades you could certainly make that point  But someone
 could come along and demonstrate that it was REALLY something else in
 the same manner you show that it was REALLY not religion  You could
 in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the Crusades
         

Scott

I dont have to make outrageous claims about religions affecting and
effecting history for the purpsoe of aa all I have to do point out
that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate
atheism At no time have I made any statement that religion was the
sole cause of anything what I have done is point out that those who
do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately 

To credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to
misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course
history I believe that those who distort history in this way know
exaclty what theyre doing and do it only for affect

Bill

preprocess doc  From: pwg25888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Patrick W. Grady)
Subject: Re: Did any DC-X gifs show up?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 30

fils@iastate.edu (Douglas R Fils) writes:

>In article <1qgiah$h9g@news.cerf.net> diaspar@nic.cerf.net (Diaspar Virtual Reality Network) writes:
>>The rollout was great and I got lots of great shots. I attended
>>the press briefing and got shots of the DC-Y model, too. All
>>in 3D
>>
>>David H. Mitchell
>>
>>
>David,
>	Are you still planing on scanning these and posting them
>somewhere?  Hope Hope Hope.  If you could that would be GREAT.

>Thanks for report of the rollout as well
>take care
>Doug

	They did the rollout already??!?  I am going to have to pay more
attention to the news.  Are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive??
 

Patrick


-- 
Patrick Grady 		      |How do they manage it, these humans-beginning
 pwg25888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu    |each time so innocently, yet always ending up
 pwg25888@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu |with the most blood on their hands?
			      |Fathertree to bugger, O.S. Card's _Xenocide_

after prepro  From pwg25888uxacsouiucedu Patrick W Grady
Subject Re Did any DCX gifs show up
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 30

filsiastateedu Douglas R Fils writes

In article 1qgiahh9gnewscerfnet diasparniccerfnet Diaspar Virtual Reality Network writes
The rollout was great and I got lots of great shots I attended
the press briefing and got shots of the DCY model too All
in 3D

David H Mitchell


David
	Are you still planing on scanning these and posting them
somewhere  Hope Hope Hope  If you could that would be GREAT

Thanks for report of the rollout as well
take care
Doug

	They did the rollout already  I am going to have to pay more
attention to the news  Are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive
 

Patrick


 
Patrick Grady 		      How do they manage it these humansbeginning
 pwg25888uxacsouiucedu    each time so innocently yet always ending up
 pwg25888sumtercsouiucedu with the most blood on their hands
			      Fathertree to bugger OS Cards _Xenocide_

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31

In article <11820@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: some thoughts.
>Keywords: Dan Bissell
>Date: 15 Apr 93 18:21:21 GMT
>In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu> bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
>>
>>	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
>>makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
>>lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
>>writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
>>in the process he became a Christian himself.
>
>  This should be good fun.  It's been a while since the group has
>  had such a ripe opportunity to gut, gill, and fillet some poor
>  bastard.  
>
>  Ah well.  Off to get the popcorn...
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
ve given me.

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31

In article 11820viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Date 15 Apr 93 182121 GMT
In article  bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
in the process he became a Christian himself

  This should be good fun  Its been a while since the group has
  had such a ripe opportunity to gut gill and fillet some poor
  bastard  

  Ah well  Off to get the popcorn

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hope youre not going to flame him  Please give him the same coutesy you
ve given me

Tammy

preprocess doc  From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Jemison on Star Trek
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 7

   I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
"Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.

Doug Loss

after prepro  From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Jemison on Star Trek
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 7

   I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
Its hardly space science I know but its interesting

Doug Loss

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Article-I.D.: mojo.1qkmkiINNep3
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>
>There are actually only two of us.  I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary.  Oh yeah,
>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.

Damn!  So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the K-MART!

				UNLIMITED INSEMINATION OF THIS MESSAGE
					RIGIDLY REFUSED



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re How many read scispace
ArticleID mojo1qkmkiINNep3
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes

There are actually only two of us  I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary  Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby

Damn  So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the KMART

				UNLIMITED INSEMINATION OF THIS MESSAGE
					RIGIDLY REFUSED



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.141137.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
> In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu> schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:
> 
>>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
>>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
> 
>>Oh gee, a billion dollars!  That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>>feasability study!  Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
> 
> Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
> $$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
> moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
> transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
> more than needed.
> 
> This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
> enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
> 
>   Allen
> 
> -- 
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
> | W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
> +----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

Or have different classes of competetors.. and made the total purse $6billion
or $7billion (depending on how many different classes there are, as in auto
racing/motocycle racing and such)..

We shall see how things go..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr201411371
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 33
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
 In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes
 
  Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
  who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
 
Oh gee a billion dollars  Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study  Happy Happy JOY JOY
 
 Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
  would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
 moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
 transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
 more than needed
 
 This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
 enough to do it if the vehicle exists
 
   Allen
 
  
 
  Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
  W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
 57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

Or have different classes of competetors and made the total purse 6billion
or 7billion depending on how many different classes there are as in auto
racingmotocycle racing and such

We shall see how things go

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: university violating separation of church/state?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 29

dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings) writes:
>      Recently, RAs have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about
> it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll: Thoughts
> on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
> stall doors. (at my school, the University of New Hampshire) It is some sort
> of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus. It poses a
> question about 'spirituality' each issue, and solicits responses to be 
> included in the next 'issue.' It's all pretty vague. I assume it's put out
> by a Christian, but they're very careful not to mention Jesus or the bible.
> I've heard someone defend it, saying "Well it doesn't support any one religion.
> " So what??? This is a STATE university, and as a strong supporter of the
> separation of church and state, I was enraged.
> 
>      What can I do about this?

It sounds to me like it's just SCREAMING OUT for parody.  Give a copy to your
friendly neighbourhood SubGenius preacher; with luck, he'll run it through the
mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut-bustingly
funny parody you can paste over the originals.

I can see it now:

                               The Stool Scroll
         Thoughts on Religion, Spirituality, and Matters of the Colon

                       (You can use this text to wipe)


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re university violating separation of churchstate
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 29

dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes
      Recently RAs have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about
 it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll Thoughts
 on religion spirituality and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
 stall doors at my school the University of New Hampshire It is some sort
 of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus It poses a
 question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses to be 
 included in the next issue Its all pretty vague I assume its put out
 by a Christian but theyre very careful not to mention Jesus or the bible
 Ive heard someone defend it saying Well it doesnt support any one religion
  So what This is a STATE university and as a strong supporter of the
 separation of church and state I was enraged
 
      What can I do about this

It sounds to me like its just SCREAMING OUT for parody  Give a copy to your
friendly neighbourhood SubGenius preacher with luck hell run it through the
mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gutbustingly
funny parody you can paste over the originals

I can see it now

                               The Stool Scroll
         Thoughts on Religion Spirituality and Matters of the Colon

                       You can use this text to wipe


mathew

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net


Henry,

didn't the Little Joe  and Big Joe  get built in under a year?
6 months for little Joe,  and 12 Months for Big Joe?

i thought i saw something on that for  a old mercury film.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet


Henry

didnt the Little Joe  and Big Joe  get built in under a year
6 months for little Joe  and 12 Months for Big Joe

i thought i saw something on that for  a old mercury film

pat

preprocess doc  From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Quotation Was:(Re: <None|)
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 12

In article <1993Apr16.155656.1@otago.ac.nz| bioccnt@otago.ac.nz writes:
|
|Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? 
|
|He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
|the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
|million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
|bidder....." 
|
Sounds similar to something Wally Schirra said.
-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131

after prepro  From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Quotation WasRe None
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 12

In article 1993Apr161556561otagoacnz bioccntotagoacnz writes

Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder 

Sounds similar to something Wally Schirra said
 
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131

preprocess doc  From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Russian Email Contacts.
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 10

I am coordinating the Space Shuttle Program Office's e-mail traffic to
NPO Energia for our on-going Joint Missions.  I have several e-mail
addresses for NPO Energia folks, but I won't post them on the 'Net for
obvious reasons.  If you need to know, give me a yell.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

     "The earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind will not stay in
     the cradle forever." -- Konstantin Tsiolkvosky

after prepro  From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Russian Email Contacts
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 10

I am coordinating the Space Shuttle Program Offices email traffic to
NPO Energia for our ongoing Joint Missions  I have several email
addresses for NPO Energia folks but I wont post them on the Net for
obvious reasons  If you need to know give me a yell

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

     The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in
     the cradle forever  Konstantin Tsiolkvosky

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: Rationality (was: Islamic marriage)?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 115

In <1993Apr4.093904.20517@proxima.alt.za> lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re) writes:

>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:

>>My point of view is that the argument "all sexism is bad" just simply
>>does not hold.  Let me give you an example.  How about permitting a
>>woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy -- should that be
>>allowed?  It happens to be sexist, as it gives a particular right only
>>to women.  Nevertheless, despite the fact that it is sexist, I completely 
>>support such a law, because I think it is just.

>Fred, you're exasperating...  Sexism, like racialism, is a form of
>discrimination, using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny
>one portion of the population the same rights as another.

>In this context, your example above holds no water whatsoever:
>there's no discrimination in "denying" men maternity leave, in fact
>I'm quite convinced that, were anyone to experiment with male
>pregnancy, it would be possible for such a future father to take
>leave on medical grounds.

Okay... I argued this thoroughly about 3-4 weeks ago.  Men and women are
different ... physically, physiologically, and psychologically.  Much
recent evidence for this statement is present in the book "Brainsex" by
Anne Moir and David Jessel.  I recommend you find a copy and read it.
Their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic
and is well referenced. 

Now, if women and men are different in some ways, the law can only
adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are
different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women
are different.  Maternity leave is an example of this -- it takes into
account that women get pregnant.  It does not give women the same rules
it would give to men, because to treat women like it treats men in this
instance would be unjust.  This is just simply an obvious example of
where men and women are intrinsically different!!!!!

Now, people make the _naive_ argument that sexism = oppression.
However, maternity leave is sexist because MEN DO NOT GET PREGNANT. 
Men do not have the same access to leave that women do (not to the same
extent or degree), and therefore IT IS SEXIST.  No matter however much a
man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave, HE NEVER CAN.  And
therefore the law IS SEXIST.  No man can have access to maternity leave,
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES TO GET PREGNANT.  I hope this is clear.

Maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just, because the
sexism here just reflects the "sexism" of nature in making men and women
different.  There are many other differences between men and women which
are far more subtle than pregnancy, and to find out more of these I
recommend you have a look at the book "Brainsex".

Your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious.
If men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically
become women!  To have a womb and the other factors required for
pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is --
so your argument, when it is examined, is seen to be fallacious.  You
are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that 
women can have if they also become women -- which actually just supports
my statement that maternity leave is sexist.

>The discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities
>because of her (legally determined) sexual inferiorities.  As I
>understand most religious sexual discrimination, and I doubt that
>Islam is exceptional, the female is not allowed into the priestly
>caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to
>rights which, as an equal human, she ought to be entitled to.

There is no official priesthood in Islam -- much of this function is
taken by Islamic scholars.  There are female Islamic scholars and
female Islamic scholars have always existed in Islam.  An example from
early Islamic history is the Prophet's widow, Aisha, who was recognized
in her time and is recognized in our time as an Islamic scholar.

>No matter how sweetly you coat it, part of the role of religions
>seems, historically, to have served the function of oppressing the
>female, whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where
>there is no opportunity for self-improvement, or by denying her
>access to the same facilities the males are offered.

You have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions, and
I dispute it.  I could go on and on about women in Islam, etc., but I
recently reposted something here under the heading "Islam and Women" --
if it is still at your news-site I suggest you read it.  It is reposted
from soc.religion.islam, so if it has disappeared from alt.atheism it
still might be in soc.religion.islam (I forgot what its original title
was though).  I will email it to you if you like. 

>The Roman Catholic Church is the most blatant of the culprit,
>because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy, but the
>other religious are no different: let a woman attempt to escape her
>role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her.

Your statement that "other religions are no different" is, I think, a
statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity and perhaps Judaism.

>I'll accept your affirmation that Islam grants women the same rights
>as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the
>same position as (say) Khomeini and there are no artificial religious
>or social obstacles on her path to achieve this.

Aisha, who I mentioned earlier, was not only an Islamic scholar but also
was, at one stage, a military leader.

>Show me the equivalent of Hillary Rhodam-Clinton within Islam, and I
>may consider discussing the issue with you.

The Prophet's first wife, who died just before the "Hijra" (the
Prophet's journey from Mecca to Medina) was a successful businesswoman.

Lucio, you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your
viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage Rationality was Islamic marriage
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 115

In 1993Apr409390420517proximaaltza lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re writes

dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes

My point of view is that the argument all sexism is bad just simply
does not hold  Let me give you an example  How about permitting a
woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy  should that be
allowed  It happens to be sexist as it gives a particular right only
to women  Nevertheless despite the fact that it is sexist I completely 
support such a law because I think it is just

Fred youre exasperating  Sexism like racialism is a form of
discrimination using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny
one portion of the population the same rights as another

In this context your example above holds no water whatsoever
theres no discrimination in denying men maternity leave in fact
Im quite convinced that were anyone to experiment with male
pregnancy it would be possible for such a future father to take
leave on medical grounds

Okay I argued this thoroughly about 34 weeks ago  Men and women are
different  physically physiologically and psychologically  Much
recent evidence for this statement is present in the book Brainsex by
Anne Moir and David Jessel  I recommend you find a copy and read it
Their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic
and is well referenced 

Now if women and men are different in some ways the law can only
adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are
different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women
are different  Maternity leave is an example of this  it takes into
account that women get pregnant  It does not give women the same rules
it would give to men because to treat women like it treats men in this
instance would be unjust  This is just simply an obvious example of
where men and women are intrinsically different

Now people make the _naive_ argument that sexism  oppression
However maternity leave is sexist because MEN DO NOT GET PREGNANT 
Men do not have the same access to leave that women do not to the same
extent or degree and therefore IT IS SEXIST  No matter however much a
man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave HE NEVER CAN  And
therefore the law IS SEXIST  No man can have access to maternity leave
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES TO GET PREGNANT  I hope this is clear

Maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just because the
sexism here just reflects the sexism of nature in making men and women
different  There are many other differences between men and women which
are far more subtle than pregnancy and to find out more of these I
recommend you have a look at the book Brainsex

Your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious
If men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically
become women  To have a womb and the other factors required for
pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is 
so your argument when it is examined is seen to be fallacious  You
are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that 
women can have if they also become women  which actually just supports
my statement that maternity leave is sexist

The discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities
because of her legally determined sexual inferiorities  As I
understand most religious sexual discrimination and I doubt that
Islam is exceptional the female is not allowed into the priestly
caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to
rights which as an equal human she ought to be entitled to

There is no official priesthood in Islam  much of this function is
taken by Islamic scholars  There are female Islamic scholars and
female Islamic scholars have always existed in Islam  An example from
early Islamic history is the Prophets widow Aisha who was recognized
in her time and is recognized in our time as an Islamic scholar

No matter how sweetly you coat it part of the role of religions
seems historically to have served the function of oppressing the
female whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where
there is no opportunity for selfimprovement or by denying her
access to the same facilities the males are offered

You have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and
I dispute it  I could go on and on about women in Islam etc but I
recently reposted something here under the heading Islam and Women 
if it is still at your newssite I suggest you read it  It is reposted
from socreligionislam so if it has disappeared from altatheism it
still might be in socreligionislam I forgot what its original title
was though  I will email it to you if you like 

The Roman Catholic Church is the most blatant of the culprit
because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy but the
other religious are no different let a woman attempt to escape her
role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her

Your statement that other religions are no different is I think a
statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity and perhaps Judaism

Ill accept your affirmation that Islam grants women the same rights
as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the
same position as say Khomeini and there are no artificial religious
or social obstacles on her path to achieve this

Aisha who I mentioned earlier was not only an Islamic scholar but also
was at one stage a military leader

Show me the equivalent of Hillary RhodamClinton within Islam and I
may consider discussing the issue with you

The Prophets first wife who died just before the Hijra the
Prophets journey from Mecca to Medina was a successful businesswoman

Lucio you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your
viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT

In article <kmr4.1563.734805744@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> In article <1qgbmt$c4f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cr866@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank D. Kirschner) writes:
> 
>> ---
> 
>    Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible. 
>         
> 
     Since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?There must be a God
     of inbreeding to which you are his only son.

                                                  Pope John Paul

after prepro  From kellybccsuactstateuedu
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Lines 12
NntpPostingHost ccsuactstateuedu
Organization Yale University Department of Computer Science New Haven CT

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
 In article 1qgbmtc4fusenetINSCWRUEdu cr866clevelandFreenetEdu Frank D Kirschner writes
 
 
 
    Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible 
         
 
     Since when does atheism mean trashing other religionsThere must be a God
     of inbreeding to which you are his only son

                                                  Pope John Paul

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17

In article <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca> agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes:
>|> ... a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer ...
>
>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?

If I'm not mistaken, this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of
communications.  That timer is counting down continuously; if it ever hits
zero, that means Galileo hasn't heard from Earth in a suspiciously long
time and it may be Galileo's fault... so it's time to go into a fallback
mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances
of restoring contact.  I don't know exactly what-all Galileo does in such
a situation, but a common example is to switch receivers, on the theory
that maybe the one you're listening with has died.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17

In article 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes
  a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer 

This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is

If Im not mistaken this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of
communications  That timer is counting down continuously if it ever hits
zero that means Galileo hasnt heard from Earth in a suspiciously long
time and it may be Galileos fault so its time to go into a fallback
mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances
of restoring contact  I dont know exactly whatall Galileo does in such
a situation but a common example is to switch receivers on the theory
that maybe the one youre listening with has died
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr17.042918.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu>, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
> 
> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>  Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
>  back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information.
> 
> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?
> 
> 					Frank Snyder
> 					Auburn University
> 
> 					snydefj@eng.auburn.edu


I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last
year..Also about Solar Sailing. Not sure who captured it if possible..

I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data?

I think I started the latest round or the late last year round.. But the topic
has been around here, off and on for a year or two..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
ArticleID aurora1993Apr170429181
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
 
 I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
  Sails I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
  back in the late 70s but I am having trouble gathering such information
 
 Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project 
 
 					Frank Snyder
 					Auburn University
 
 					snydefjengauburnedu


I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last
yearAlso about Solar Sailing Not sure who captured it if possible

I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data

I think I started the latest round or the late last year round But the topic
has been around here off and on for a year or two


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 17

In article <16BB112525.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
 
>I assume that you  say here a religious law is for the followers of the
>religion. That begs the question why the religion has the right to define
>who is a follower even when the offenders disagree.

No, I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. This
prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion
who, when charged, claims that he/she was _not_ a member of the
religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened.



Gregg



after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 17

In article 16BB112525I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
 
I assume that you  say here a religious law is for the followers of the
religion That begs the question why the religion has the right to define
who is a follower even when the offenders disagree

No I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies This
prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion
who when charged claims that heshe was _not_ a member of the
religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened



Gregg



preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 16

Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:
...
>people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
>and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D

Seen that movie already. Or one just like it.
Come to think of it, they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing...

>Jeff Cook                                  Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.com

--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 16

JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes

people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D

Seen that movie already Or one just like it
Come to think of it they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing

Jeff Cook                                  JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRcom


Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 15

In article <C5w5F8.3LC.1@cs.cmu.edu> nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>
>Would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not
>much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km
>inflatable billboards in LEO (or in GEO, visible 24 hours from your
>key growth market). I'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of
>identity).

	I've heard of sillier things, like a well-known utility company
wanting to buy an 'automated' boiler-cleaning system which uses as many
operators as the old system, and which rumour has it costs three million
more per unit. Automation is more 'efficient' although by what scale they are
not saying...

							James Nicoll

after prepro  From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Western Ontario London
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 15

In article  nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes

Would they buy it given that its a _lot_ more expensive and not
much more impressive than putting a large set of severalkm
inflatable billboards in LEO or in GEO visible 24 hours from your
key growth market Ill do _that_ for only 5bn and the changes of
identity

	Ive heard of sillier things like a wellknown utility company
wanting to buy an automated boilercleaning system which uses as many
operators as the old system and which rumour has it costs three million
more per unit Automation is more efficient although by what scale they are
not saying

							James Nicoll

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22

In <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:

>Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
>$$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
>moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
>transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
>more than needed.

>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.

But Allen, if you can assume the existence of an SSTO there is no need
to have the contest in the first place.  I would think that what we
want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these
'cheaper' ways of doing things; if they already exist, why flush $1G
just to get someone to go to the Moon for a year?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22

In 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes

Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
 would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
more than needed

This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists

But Allen if you can assume the existence of an SSTO there is no need
to have the contest in the first place  I would think that what we
want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these
cheaper ways of doing things if they already exist why flush 1G
just to get someone to go to the Moon for a year

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: nancyo@fraser.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 11

timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:

>Rule #4:  Don't mix apples with oranges.  How can you say that the
>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin?  Khan conquered people
>unsympathetic to his cause.  That was atrocious.  But Stalin killed millions of
>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!!  How can
>anyone be worse than that?

You're right.  And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian.



after prepro  From nancyofrasersfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC Canada
Lines 11

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes

Rule 4  Dont mix apples with oranges  How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin  Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause  That was atrocious  But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state  How can
anyone be worse than that

Youre right  And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian



preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: ? (was Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?))
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
Distribution: world,public
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Keywords: Time for a consistency check, bub.

sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:

>>Of course, if at some later time we think that the death penalty
>>*is* cruel or unusual, it will be outlawed.  But at the present,
>>most people don't seem to think this way.
>*This* from the same fellow who speaks of an "objective" or "natural"
>morality.  I suppose that if the majority decides slavery is OK, then
>it is no longer immoral?

I did not claim that our system was objective.


keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  was Re Cruel was Re Of course if at some later time we think that the death penalty
is cruel or unusual it will be outlawed  But at the present
most people dont seem to think this way
This from the same fellow who speaks of an objective or natural
morality  I suppose that if the majority decides slavery is OK then
it is no longer immoral

I did not claim that our system was objective


keith

preprocess doc  From: b711zbr@utarlg.uta.edu (JUNYAN WANG)
Subject: Bible contradictions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Nntp-Posting-Host: utarlg.uta.edu
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Lines: 2

I would like a list of Bible contadictions from those of you who dispite
being free from Christianity are well versed in the Bible.

after prepro  From b711zbrutarlgutaedu JUNYAN WANG
Subject Bible contradictions
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
NntpPostingHost utarlgutaedu
Organization The University of Texas at Arlington
Lines 2

I would like a list of Bible contadictions from those of you who dispite
being free from Christianity are well versed in the Bible

preprocess doc  From: ktj@beach.cis.ufl.edu (kerry todd johnson)
Subject: army in space
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: beach.cis.ufl.edu


Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space?  After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army, 
and I would like to spend it in a space-related field.  I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counter-part.  Any more info on that would be appreciated.  I'm 
looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other?  To
whom do I voice my interest in space?  What qualifications are necessary?
Etc, etc.  BTW, my major is computer science engineering.

Please reply to ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu

Thanks for ANY info.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Whether they ever find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be         =
= considered an enemy planet.  --  Jack Handy                                 =
---ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu---cirop59@elm.circa.ufl.edu---endeavour@circa.ufl.edu--

after prepro  From ktjbeachcisufledu kerry todd johnson
Subject army in space
Organization Univ of Florida CIS Dept
Lines 17
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost beachcisufledu


Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space  After I graduate I will have a commitment to serve in the Army 
and I would like to spend it in a spacerelated field  I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counterpart  Any more info on that would be appreciated  Im 
looking for things like do I branch Intelligence or Signal or other  To
whom do I voice my interest in space  What qualifications are necessary
Etc etc  BTW my major is computer science engineering

Please reply to ktjreefcisufledu

Thanks for ANY info

 Whether they ever find life there or not I think Jupiter should be         
 considered an enemy planet    Jack Handy                                 
ktjreefcisufleducirop59elmcircaufleduendeavourcircaufledu

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 37
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.

Well, this is alt.atheism.  I hope you arent here to try to convert anyone.

>It makes sense to be one.

Many would disagree.

[...]
>The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

Well, you shouldn't give any particular book too much weight.  Actually,
I don't think that any of these statements is correct.  It is more likely
that most of Jesus' fame was attributed to him after his death by those
who had some strong motives...

[...]
>Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.

What's a prophecy, and what's so significant about them?

>I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.

I think we understand.

>It is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.  Rather I think it 
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
>sake.

Well, sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now...
Don't waste any time.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 37
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Keywords Dan Bissell

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian

Well this is altatheism  I hope you arent here to try to convert anyone

It makes sense to be one

Many would disagree

[]
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was

Well you shouldnt give any particular book too much weight  Actually
I dont think that any of these statements is correct  It is more likely
that most of Jesus fame was attributed to him after his death by those
who had some strong motives

[]
Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone

Whats a prophecy and whats so significant about them

I dont think most people understand what a Christian is

I think we understand

It is certainly not what I see a lot in churches  Rather I think it 
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods 
sake

Well sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now
Dont waste any time

keith

preprocess doc  Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
 <dxb105.734155421@aries> <1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu>
 <dxb105.734495289@virgo> <1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
Lines: 9

This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.

Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
they will simply be able to afford more stuff.

Graydon

after prepro  Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon 
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
  1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu
  1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
Lines 9

This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic

Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff

Graydon

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 16

In article <1993Apr14.132813.16343@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> Anyhow, on the basis of the apparent success of Islamic banks, it seems
> to me that the statement that a zero-interest economy cannot survive in
> today's world may be a bit premature.

I'm sure zero-intested economical systems survive on a small-scale,
co-ops is not an Islamic invention, and we have co-operatives working
all around the world. However such systems don't stand the corruption
of a large scale operation. Actually, nothing could handle human
greed, IMHO. Not even Allah :-).

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage 
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 16

In article 1993Apr1413281316343monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
 Anyhow on the basis of the apparent success of Islamic banks it seems
 to me that the statement that a zerointerest economy cannot survive in
 todays world may be a bit premature

Im sure zerointested economical systems survive on a smallscale
coops is not an Islamic invention and we have cooperatives working
all around the world However such systems dont stand the corruption
of a large scale operation Actually nothing could handle human
greed IMHO Not even Allah 

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
In-Reply-To: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu's message of 15 Apr 93 11: 17:13 -0600
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
	<1993Apr15.111713.4726@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>
Lines: 18

a> In article <1qi156INNf9n@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno) writes:
> 
..stuff deleted...
> 
> Which brings me to the point of my posting.  How many people out there have 
> been around alt.atheism since 1990?  I've done my damnedest to stay on top of
...more stuff deleted...

Hmm, USENET got it's collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after I
switched to engineering.  I'd say I started reading alt.atheism around 1988-89.
I've probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though.
I'll never understand how people can find the time to write so much.  I
can barely keep up as it is.

--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Where are they now
InReplyTo acoopermacccmacalstredus message of 15 Apr 93 11 1713 0600
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
	1993Apr151117134726macccmacalstredu
Lines 18

a In article 1qi156INNf9nsenatorbedfellowMITEDU tcbrunoathenamitedu Tom Bruno writes
 
stuff deleted
 
 Which brings me to the point of my posting  How many people out there have 
 been around altatheism since 1990  Ive done my damnedest to stay on top of
more stuff deleted

Hmm USENET got its collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after I
switched to engineering  Id say I started reading altatheism around 198889
Ive probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though
Ill never understand how people can find the time to write so much  I
can barely keep up as it is


Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 25

In <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca> agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes:

>In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|> 3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?

The Command Loss Timer is a timer that does just what its name says;
it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving
commands.  Upon expiration of the Command Loss Timer, I believe the
probe starts a 'search for Earth' sequence (involving antenna pointing
and attitude changes which consume fuel) to try to reestablish
communications.  No-ops are sent periodically through those periods
when there are no real commands to be sent, just so the probe knows
that we haven't forgotten about it.

Hope that's clear enough to be comprehensible. 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Keywords Galileo JPL
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 25

In 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes

In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 3  On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase

This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is

The Command Loss Timer is a timer that does just what its name says
it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving
commands  Upon expiration of the Command Loss Timer I believe the
probe starts a search for Earth sequence involving antenna pointing
and attitude changes which consume fuel to try to reestablish
communications  Noops are sent periodically through those periods
when there are no real commands to be sent just so the probe knows
that we havent forgotten about it

Hope thats clear enough to be comprehensible 

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 49

In <2943927496.1.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:

>>DATE:   14 Apr 1993 23:52:11 GMT
>>FROM:   Frank O'Dwyer <frank@D012S658.uucp>
>>
>>In article <1993Apr14.102810.6059@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>
>>Just borrowing your post, Mr. Rice...
>>
>>#In <2943656910.0.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>#>Are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind
>>#>the massacres in East Timor?  It is certainly odd that so many of the worlds
>>#>massacres occur along religious lines, independently of any claims to a
>>#>democratic form of government.  Are Ireland and Northern Ireland considered
>>#>democracies?  Would you attribute their problems to democracy even though
>>#>they are democracies?  Which motivates them more, religion or democracy?
>>
>>Mr. Rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that Islam is evil
>>because some of those who claim to follow it are evil, not asserting that 
>>democracy causes massacres, as I read it.  

>That is right, he was.  And I was pointing out that his use of Indonesians
>killing the East Timorese as a result of _democracy_ was a bit weak because
>democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in Indonesia
>from what I remember.  East Timor was a former Portguese territory which was
>forcibly annexed by Indonesia.  Last I heard over 10,000 Indonesians have
>died trying to keep East Timor a part of Indonesia.  Being a former 
>Portuguese colony, there is a strong Catholic influence in East Timor as I
>recall.  So it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being
>fought between people who just "happen" to have different religions.  Purely
>coincidental, I guess.  But then the real motivation is to get the vote out
>and make democracy work in Indonesia.

I pointed out the secession movement in Aceh which has also been
brutally dealt with in the past by the Indonesian government.  The
harshly with all secessionist movements.
the evidence, it appears to me that the Indonesian government has dealt
very harshly with all secession movements.

I know that the head of the Indonesian armed forces for a very long time
was Benny Murdani -- a "Christian".  Indonesia has been heavy handed in
East Timor for a long time , even when Murdani was head of the armed
forces.  The people who make up the
Indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests,
not religious ones.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   


after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 49

In 29439274961p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes

DATE   14 Apr 1993 235211 GMT
FROM   Frank ODwyer 

In article 1993Apr141028106059monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes

Just borrowing your post Mr Rice

In 29436569100p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes
Are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind
the massacres in East Timor  It is certainly odd that so many of the worlds
massacres occur along religious lines independently of any claims to a
democratic form of government  Are Ireland and Northern Ireland considered
democracies  Would you attribute their problems to democracy even though
they are democracies  Which motivates them more religion or democracy

Mr Rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that Islam is evil
because some of those who claim to follow it are evil not asserting that 
democracy causes massacres as I read it  

That is right he was  And I was pointing out that his use of Indonesians
killing the East Timorese as a result of _democracy_ was a bit weak because
democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in Indonesia
from what I remember  East Timor was a former Portguese territory which was
forcibly annexed by Indonesia  Last I heard over 10000 Indonesians have
died trying to keep East Timor a part of Indonesia  Being a former 
Portuguese colony there is a strong Catholic influence in East Timor as I
recall  So it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being
fought between people who just happen to have different religions  Purely
coincidental I guess  But then the real motivation is to get the vote out
and make democracy work in Indonesia

I pointed out the secession movement in Aceh which has also been
brutally dealt with in the past by the Indonesian government  The
harshly with all secessionist movements
the evidence it appears to me that the Indonesian government has dealt
very harshly with all secession movements

I know that the head of the Indonesian armed forces for a very long time
was Benny Murdani  a Christian  Indonesia has been heavy handed in
East Timor for a long time  even when Murdani was head of the armed
forces  The people who make up the
Indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests
not religious ones

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   


preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: flb@flb.optiplan.fi's message of Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:01:38 GMT

In article <C5xr2w.Dnw.1@cs.cmu.edu> flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:

   From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>

   > Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
   > please try to remember that there are more human activities than
   > those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
   > Priesthood.

   Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may 
    freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..

The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
the merchants (aka Profiting Caste [sic])
for their rise to power, has it?

;-)

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu 		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  Ya know... you penguin types offend me. ...			*
*  My Gosh... Life is offensive!!   				*
*  Offensensitivity.		- BB 1984			*

after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto flbflboptiplanfis message of Fri 23 Apr 1993 120138 GMT

In article  flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes

   From Phil G Fraering 

    Finally this isnt the Bronze Age []
    please try to remember that there are more human activities than
    those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
    Priesthood

   Right the Profiting Caste is blessed by God and may 
    freely blare its presence in the evening twilight 

The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
the merchants aka Profiting Caste [sic]
for their rise to power has it



  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	
  steinlylickucscedu 		standard disclaimer  	
  Ya know you penguin types offend me 			
  My Gosh Life is offensive   				
  Offensensitivity		 BB 1984			

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:

>>Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over?
>Because you rarely ever answer them.

Nope, I've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple
times.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes

Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over
Because you rarely ever answer them

Nope Ive answered each question posed and most were answered multiple
times

keith

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 31

In article <2BCC892B.21864@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:

>In article <115290@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>>Well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
>>would not be relevant to you. I can understand your fear of persecution
>>and I share it even more than you (being muslim), however Rushdie's
>>behavior was not completely excusable.

>Why should a fatwa issued by Khomeini be relevant to anyone who
>doesn't live in Iran?

Issued by Khomeini it shouldn't be relevant to anyone. But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect.

>  Who is it that decides whether Rushdie's behavior is excusable? 

Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning,
if you are talking about a weak sense of "excuse." It depends on what 
sense of "excuse" you have in mind.


> And who cares if you think it is inexcusable?

Only someone who thinks my opinion is important, obviously.
Obviously you don't care, nor do I care that you don't care.


Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 31

In article 2BCC892B21864icsuciedu bvickersicsuciedu Brett J Vickers writes

In article 115290buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
would not be relevant to you I can understand your fear of persecution
and I share it even more than you being muslim however Rushdies
behavior was not completely excusable

Why should a fatwa issued by Khomeini be relevant to anyone who
doesnt live in Iran

Issued by Khomeini it shouldnt be relevant to anyone But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect

  Who is it that decides whether Rushdies behavior is excusable 

Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning
if you are talking about a weak sense of excuse It depends on what 
sense of excuse you have in mind


 And who cares if you think it is inexcusable

Only someone who thinks my opinion is important obviously
Obviously you dont care nor do I care that you dont care


Gregg

preprocess doc  From: hdsteven@solitude.Stanford.EDU (H. D. Stevens)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: stanford
Lines: 59

In article <1993Apr21.190156.7769@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
|> >Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
|> >What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
|> >than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?
|> 
|> 
|> The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton 
|> is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
|> which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
|> launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
|> are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
|> up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
|> thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
|> Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know 
|> how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
|> bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
|> and erected on the pad?  

The Centaur that is being built for T4 would be a better bet to integrate 
onto the Proton as the T4/Centaur is designed for the Extremely Harsh 
envorinment of the T4 launch. It is also closer to 4 m in diameter. 

You've hit on the real kicker, however. The Centaur is pressure stabilized. 
It cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks. Additionally, 
the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to ~+/- 5 psi. 
That is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train. The pressure 
stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance. On numerous occasions
(when I was there 88-91) the AF wanted to see what it would take to make 
a non-pressure stabilized centaur. The answer -- a centaur not worth launching. 

The Atlas/Centaur does not require on-pad integration, however the T4/Centaur
does. I believe the on-pad integration is to a great extent due to the 
cleanliness requirements and PFL configuration, so maybe something can be 
done there........


|> 
|> They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
|> (unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
|> any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
|> US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
|> problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention. 

The addition of LOX/LH facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it 
lifts off. A LHe facility is also needed. I don't know what the proton uses 
for fuel, but since they are derived from ICBM's I would suspect that they 
use storable propellants which don't have the ullage problem that cryo's 
do. If there is no cryo at the sight at all, the addition of these systems 
could be big $$, not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with 
providing centaur GSE to Russia. That issue alone might be enough to kill 
this idea. 

-- 
H.D. Stevens
Stanford University			Email:hdsteven@sun-valley.stanford.edu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory		Phone:	(415) 725-3293  (Lab)
Durand Building					(415) 722-3296  (Bullpen)
Stanford, CA 94305			Fax:	(415) 725-3377

after prepro  From hdstevensolitudeStanfordEDU H D Stevens
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization stanford
Lines 59

In article 1993Apr211901567769lmpsbbscommmotcom dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk writes
 In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
 Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
 What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
 than the obvious instability in the XSSR now
 
 
 The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton 
 is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
 which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
 launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
 are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
 up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
 thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
 Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know 
 how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
 bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
 and erected on the pad  

The Centaur that is being built for T4 would be a better bet to integrate 
onto the Proton as the T4Centaur is designed for the Extremely Harsh 
envorinment of the T4 launch It is also closer to 4 m in diameter 

Youve hit on the real kicker however The Centaur is pressure stabilized 
It cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks Additionally 
the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to  5 psi 
That is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train The pressure 
stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance On numerous occasions
when I was there 8891 the AF wanted to see what it would take to make 
a nonpressure stabilized centaur The answer  a centaur not worth launching 

The AtlasCentaur does not require onpad integration however the T4Centaur
does I believe the onpad integration is to a great extent due to the 
cleanliness requirements and PFL configuration so maybe something can be 
done there


 
 They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
 unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
 any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
 US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
 problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention 

The addition of LOXLH facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it 
lifts off A LHe facility is also needed I dont know what the proton uses 
for fuel but since they are derived from ICBMs I would suspect that they 
use storable propellants which dont have the ullage problem that cryos 
do If there is no cryo at the sight at all the addition of these systems 
could be big  not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with 
providing centaur GSE to Russia That issue alone might be enough to kill 
this idea 

 
HD Stevens
Stanford University			Emailhdstevensunvalleystanfordedu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory		Phone	415 7253293  Lab
Durand Building					415 7223296  Bullpen
Stanford CA 94305			Fax	415 7253377

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 24

higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:

>> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>>  Sails. [...]
>> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?

Bill says ...

>Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman,
>a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, Josh),

I presume the one you refer to is "Space Sailing" by Jerome L. Wright.  He 
worked on solar sails while at JPL and as CEO of General Astronautics.  I'll
furnish ordering info upon request.

The Friedman book is called "Starsailing: Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel."
It was available from the Planetary Society a few years ago, I don't know if
it still is.
-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 24

higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes

snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes

 I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
  Sails []
 Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project 

Bill says 

Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out Josh

I presume the one you refer to is Space Sailing by Jerome L Wright  He 
worked on solar sails while at JPL and as CEO of General Astronautics  Ill
furnish ordering info upon request

The Friedman book is called Starsailing Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel
It was available from the Planetary Society a few years ago I dont know if
it still is
 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: Andrew Rogers <rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
X-Xxdate: Wed, 21 Apr 93 16:03:51 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Company
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 9

In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> Don Schiewer,
schiewer@pa881a.inland.com writes:
>What is the deal with life on Mars?  I save the "face" and heard 
>associated theories. (which sound thin to me)
>
>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
>Does anyone buy all the life theories?

try   alt.alien.visitors

after prepro  From Andrew Rogers 
Subject Re Life on Mars
XXxdate Wed 21 Apr 93 160351 GMT
Organization Lockheed Engineering  Sciences Company
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 9

In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer
schiewerpa881ainlandcom writes
What is the deal with life on Mars  I save the face and heard 
associated theories which sound thin to me

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Does anyone buy all the life theories

try   altalienvisitors

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list
Supersedes: <reminder_734971619@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Expires: 7 May 1993 17:25:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu

    This notice will be posted weekly in sci.space, sci.astro, and
sci.space.shuttle.

    The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for sci.space and sci.astro is
posted approximately monthly. It also covers many questions that come up on
sci.space.shuttle (for shuttle launch dates, see below).

    The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date, so a copy may be in your
news spool directory (look at old articles in sci.space). If not, here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting:

    (1) If your machine is on the Internet, it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) in directory
pub/SPACE/FAQ.

    (2) Otherwise, send email to 'archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov'
containing the single line:

help

    The archive server will return directions on how to use it. To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory, send email containing the lines:

send space FAQ/Index
send space FAQ/faq1

    Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions.

    Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
sci.space.shuttle. A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/manifest and may be requested from the email
archive-server with 'send space FAQ/manifest'. Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings.

    Do not post followups to this article; respond to the author.

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 36
Distribution world
Expires 7 May 1993 172540 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu

    This notice will be posted weekly in scispace sciastro and
scispaceshuttle

    The Frequently Asked Questions FAQ list for scispace and sciastro is
posted approximately monthly It also covers many questions that come up on
scispaceshuttle for shuttle launch dates see below

    The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date so a copy may be in your
news spool directory look at old articles in scispace If not here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting

    1 If your machine is on the Internet it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at amesarcnasagov 128102183 in directory
pubSPACEFAQ

    2 Otherwise send email to archiveserveramesarcnasagov
containing the single line

help

    The archive server will return directions on how to use it To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory send email containing the lines

send space FAQIndex
send space FAQfaq1

    Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions

    Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
scispaceshuttle A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pubSPACEFAQmanifest and may be requested from the email
archiveserver with send space FAQmanifest Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings

    Do not post followups to this article respond to the author

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 24

In article <house.734841689@helios>, house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house) writes:
|> marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall) writes:
|> 
|> >healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
|> 
|> >>     you might think "oh yeah. then why didn't god destroy it in the bud 
|> >>before it got to the point it is now--with millions through the 
|> >>ages suffering along in life?"
|> >>      the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was 
|> >>better than God's.  God is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way 
|> >>is better than God's.  we all know what that has brought.     
|> 
|> >Come on!  God is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the
|> >well-being of billions?  I seriously doubt it.  Having read the Bible
|> >twice, I never got the impression that God and Satan were working in some
|> >sort of cooperative arrangement.
|> 
|> Read the book of Job.
|> 

Oh, that was just a bet.


Brian /-|-\  

after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re free moral agency
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 24

In article  househeliosusqEDUAU ron house writes
 marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall writes
 
 healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
 
      you might think oh yeah then why didnt god destroy it in the bud 
 before it got to the point it is nowwith millions through the 
 ages suffering along in life
       the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was 
 better than Gods  God is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way 
 is better than Gods  we all know what that has brought     
 
 Come on  God is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the
 wellbeing of billions  I seriously doubt it  Having read the Bible
 twice I never got the impression that God and Satan were working in some
 sort of cooperative arrangement
 
 Read the book of Job
 

Oh that was just a bet


Brian \  

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 54
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

(reference line trimmed)

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

[...]

>There is a good deal more confusion here.   You started off with the 
>assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
>here, you finished up with a recursive definition.   Murder is 
>"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
>requires an appeal to morality.

Yes.

>Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little.   Now you are
>asking what is the "goal"?   What do you mean by "goal?".   Are you
>suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
>and we form our morals to achieve it?

Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
propogation of the species.  Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence, which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  You see,
to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system.  That is,
we shall be moral unto what end?

>>Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule.  And, I thought I had
>>defined murder as an intentional killing of a non-murderer, against his will.
>>And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
>>innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not.
>>I fail to see what this has to do with anything.  I never claimed that our
>>system of morality was an objective one.
>I thought that was your very first claim.   That there was
>some kind of "objective" morality, and that an example of that was
>that murder is wrong.   If you don't want to claim that any more,
>that's fine.

Well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system.  However, I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral.  I think that
it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect.

>And by the way, you don't seem to understand the difference between
>"arbitrary" and "objective".   If Keith Schneider "defines" murder
>to be this that and the other, that's arbitrary.   Jon Livesey may
>still say "Well, according to my personal system of morality, all
>killing of humans against their will is murder, and wrong, and what
>the legal definition of murder may be in the USA, Kuweit, Saudi
>Arabia, or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me".

Well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re There is a good deal more confusion here   You started off with the 
assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
here you finished up with a recursive definition   Murder is 
objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
requires an appeal to morality

Yes

Now you have switch targets a little but only a little   Now you are
asking what is the goal   What do you mean by goal   Are you
suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
and we form our morals to achieve it

Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
propogation of the species  Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness  You see
to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system  That is
we shall be moral unto what end

Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule  And I thought I had
defined murder as an intentional killing of a nonmurderer against his will
And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not
I fail to see what this has to do with anything  I never claimed that our
system of morality was an objective one
I thought that was your very first claim   That there was
some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was
that murder is wrong   If you dont want to claim that any more
thats fine

Well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system  However I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral  I think that
it is a very good approximation but we cant be perfect

And by the way you dont seem to understand the difference between
arbitrary and objective   If Keith Schneider defines murder
to be this that and the other thats arbitrary   Jon Livesey may
still say Well according to my personal system of morality all
killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what
the legal definition of murder may be in the USA Kuweit Saudi
Arabia or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me

Well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning

keith

preprocess doc  From: hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Nntp-Posting-Host: math30.mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de
Organization: Math Madhouse Bielefeld, Germany
Lines: 26

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au 
(Enzo Liguori) writes:

> hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the

This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.

>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.

If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
selling every bit that promises to make money? I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.

	Another depressed planetary citizen,
	hoover



-- 
Uwe "Hoover" Schuerkamp 		     hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de
		Clear Skies --- Fight light pollution!

after prepro  From hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
NntpPostingHost math30mathematikunibielefeldde
Organization Math Madhouse Bielefeld Germany
Lines 26

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau 
Enzo Liguori writes

 hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the

This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore

If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers

	Another depressed planetary citizen
	hoover



 
Uwe Hoover Schuerkamp 		     hoovermathematikunibielefeldde
		Clear Skies  Fight light pollution

preprocess doc  From: Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado)
Subject: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Lines: 32


Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org

If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.  I have a nice
offline message reader/editor, an automated modem "mailer"
program which will pick up mail bundles (quickly and easily),
and an INSTALL.EXE to set them up painlessly.  No charge for
the sci.space feed, though you have to dial Washington, D.C.
This is NOT a BBS -- it's a store & forward system for mail
bundles, with minimum connect times.  (I'm used to overseas
calls.)  (This is not an offer for a free feed for any other
particular newsgroups.)  Speeds of up to 14400 (v32bis) are
supported.  VIP's might be offered other free services, such
as Internet address and other functionality.

I get my feed from UUNET and run a 4-line hub.  I've been
hubbing for years -- I have an extremely reliable hub.

The software I provide runs under MS-DOS (and OS/2 and Windows
as a DOS box).  Other, compatible software packages exist for
the MacIntosh and Unix.

Any responses should be private and go to:  
mark.prado@permanet.org

(By the way, to all, my apologies for the public traffic on my
glib question.  I really didn't expect public replys.  But thanks
to Bill Higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead.)

 * Origin: PerManNet FTSC <=> Internet gateway (1:109/349.2)

after prepro  From MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado
Subject Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Lines 32


Reply address markpradopermanetorg

If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them  I have a nice
offline message readereditor an automated modem mailer
program which will pick up mail bundles quickly and easily
and an INSTALLEXE to set them up painlessly  No charge for
the scispace feed though you have to dial Washington DC
This is NOT a BBS  its a store  forward system for mail
bundles with minimum connect times  Im used to overseas
calls  This is not an offer for a free feed for any other
particular newsgroups  Speeds of up to 14400 v32bis are
supported  VIPs might be offered other free services such
as Internet address and other functionality

I get my feed from UUNET and run a 4line hub  Ive been
hubbing for years  I have an extremely reliable hub

The software I provide runs under MSDOS and OS2 and Windows
as a DOS box  Other compatible software packages exist for
the MacIntosh and Unix

Any responses should be private and go to  
markpradopermanetorg

By the way to all my apologies for the public traffic on my
glib question  I really didnt expect public replys  But thanks
to Bill Higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead

  Origin PerManNet FTSC  Internet gateway 11093492

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr22.214735.22733@Princeton.EDU> phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser) writes:
>A transporter operator!?!?  That better be one important transport.  Usually  
>it is a nameless ensign who does the job.  For such a guest appearance I would  
>have expected a more visible/meaningful role.


Christian  Slater, only gota  cameo on ST6,  

and besides.

Maybe she can't act:-)

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr2221473522733PrincetonEDU phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser writes
A transporter operator  That better be one important transport  Usually  
it is a nameless ensign who does the job  For such a guest appearance I would  
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role


Christian  Slater only gota  cameo on ST6  

and besides

Maybe she cant act

pat


preprocess doc  From: schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sal-sun121.usc.edu


In article <1993Apr19.130503.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
|> > With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints 
|> > by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about 
|> > that might just work.
|> > 
|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
|> > Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
|> > to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
|> > 
|> > --
|> >   gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
|> > theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
|> ====
|> If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
|> resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
|> in Australia..
|> Anybody game for a contest!
|> 
|> ==
|> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


Oh gee, a billion dollars!  That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study!  Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!

Peter F. Schaefer

after prepro  From schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 29
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost salsun121uscedu


In article 1993Apr191305031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
  With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints 
  by government over the large cost why not try something I read about 
  that might just work
  
  Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
  who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
  Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
  to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
  
  
    genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
  theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
 
 If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
 resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
 in Australia
 Anybody game for a contest
 
 
 Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


Oh gee a billion dollars  Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study  Happy Happy JOY JOY

Peter F Schaefer

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 32

In article <1993Apr10.130112.25440@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:

>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

>>>And no, in Western countries, it isn't a "legal" concept 
>>>at all, so it's not the slightest bit pertinent to the
>>>topic, which is a British author living in the United 
>>>Kingdom under the protection of British law.

>>Ah, yes, I keep forgetting, governments are superior entities to
>>religious organizations. Forgive me -- the gun is the higher law.

>This is degenerating to 'Zumder logic.  Of course governments are
>superior entities, they are elected by the people, whereas religious
>leaders certainly are not.

Perhaps not in Christianity, but in Islam the choice of religious
leaders is to be made by the people. So much for your superiority
argument.


>  Those who the people trust to make the law
>obviously represents the higher law.  That is democracy.

Democracy is a basic element of Islam. Learn that one!

Ever notice that the so-called "fundamentalists" in Algeria
who are being repressed by the secular government won in
free and democratic elections.


Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 32

In article 1993Apr1013011225440bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes

Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote

And no in Western countries it isnt a legal concept 
at all so its not the slightest bit pertinent to the
topic which is a British author living in the United 
Kingdom under the protection of British law

Ah yes I keep forgetting governments are superior entities to
religious organizations Forgive me  the gun is the higher law

This is degenerating to Zumder logic  Of course governments are
superior entities they are elected by the people whereas religious
leaders certainly are not

Perhaps not in Christianity but in Islam the choice of religious
leaders is to be made by the people So much for your superiority
argument


  Those who the people trust to make the law
obviously represents the higher law  That is democracy

Democracy is a basic element of Islam Learn that one

Ever notice that the socalled fundamentalists in Algeria
who are being repressed by the secular government won in
free and democratic elections


Gregg

preprocess doc  From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 39
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:

>In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:

>>I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
>>with the Atlanta Olympics. 

>Even worse, the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
>orbiting billboard.  Considering the caliber of people running this city, 
>there's no telling what we're going to have leering down at us from orbit.

I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity.  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s.  Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer.
A small dispersal charge embedded in about 20 kg of sand or
birdshot (depending on the nature of the structure) would be
the payload.  I am sure the whole project is well within
the capability of the amateur rocketry community.

It sounds like a good Science Fair project--'Reduction
of Light Pollution Through Applied Ballistics'.
Or, it could be part of the Challenge Prize being discussed
here: $1 billion for the first person to spend 1 year
on the moon, $1 million for the first erradication of
an orbital eyesore/CCD burner.  I wouldpledge $1000
for the first person to bring it down, and I am sure
there are at least 999 other astronomers, nature lovers,
or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise.

Of course, a  Gerald Bull solution might be simpler.
(Either the solution Gerald Bull would apply--the use
of a large caliber gun; or the solution which was applied
to Gerald Bull--the use of a small caliber gun.)
-- 
		David M. Palmer		palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
					palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov

after prepro  From palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 39
NNTPPostingHost alumnicaltechedu

matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes

In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes

I hear  that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics 

Even worse the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard  Considering the caliber of people running this city 
theres no telling what were going to have leering down at us from orbit

I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms  Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fueloxidizer
A small dispersal charge embedded in about 20 kg of sand or
birdshot depending on the nature of the structure would be
the payload  I am sure the whole project is well within
the capability of the amateur rocketry community

It sounds like a good Science Fair projectReduction
of Light Pollution Through Applied Ballistics
Or it could be part of the Challenge Prize being discussed
here 1 billion for the first person to spend 1 year
on the moon 1 million for the first erradication of
an orbital eyesoreCCD burner  I wouldpledge 1000
for the first person to bring it down and I am sure
there are at least 999 other astronomers nature lovers
or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise

Of course a  Gerald Bull solution might be simpler
Either the solution Gerald Bull would applythe use
of a large caliber gun or the solution which was applied
to Gerald Bullthe use of a small caliber gun
 
		David M Palmer		palmeralumnicaltechedu
					palmertgrsgsfcnasagov

preprocess doc  From: Lawrence Curcio <lc2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: Doctoral student, Public Policy and Management, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com>

Let's see. These aren't, in a strict sense, amateur rockets. That term
denotes rockets, the engines of which are constructed by the user. The
rockets you describe are called HPR, or high power rockets, to
distinguish them from (smaller) model rockets. They use factory-made
ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines
with graphite nozzles. The engines are classified by impulse. A "D"
engine, for example, can have no more than 20 newton-seconds of impulse.
An "F" engine can have no more than 40 ns. Each letter corresponds to a
doubling of the maximum impulse. So far, engines up to size "O" are
available pretty much off the shelf. Engines of size H and above are
shipped as Class B explosives, and as such are controlled. Engines of
size F and below are shipped as Class C explosives, and are not as
controlled. Class F engines, BTW, are not HPR engines, but model rocket
engines. (Class G engines go in and out of legal limbo.)

There is an HPR Society, The Tripoli Rocket Society, I believe, which
holds events at various sites throughout the year, with all legalities
(FAA waiver included) taken care of. The National Association of
Rocketry is more concerned with engines below H, though it is involved
in HPR as well. These societies certify users of HPR rockets, and
companies will not sell to uncertified individuals.

Bottom Line: It's legit. I suggest you send for a catalog - but forget
the dynamite, will ya?

-Larry C.

after prepro  From Lawrence Curcio 
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization Doctoral student Public Policy and Management Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost po3andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

Lets see These arent in a strict sense amateur rockets That term
denotes rockets the engines of which are constructed by the user The
rockets you describe are called HPR or high power rockets to
distinguish them from smaller model rockets They use factorymade
ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines
with graphite nozzles The engines are classified by impulse A D
engine for example can have no more than 20 newtonseconds of impulse
An F engine can have no more than 40 ns Each letter corresponds to a
doubling of the maximum impulse So far engines up to size O are
available pretty much off the shelf Engines of size H and above are
shipped as Class B explosives and as such are controlled Engines of
size F and below are shipped as Class C explosives and are not as
controlled Class F engines BTW are not HPR engines but model rocket
engines Class G engines go in and out of legal limbo

There is an HPR Society The Tripoli Rocket Society I believe which
holds events at various sites throughout the year with all legalities
FAA waiver included taken care of The National Association of
Rocketry is more concerned with engines below H though it is involved
in HPR as well These societies certify users of HPR rockets and
companies will not sell to uncertified individuals

Bottom Line Its legit I suggest you send for a catalog  but forget
the dynamite will ya

Larry C

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism : Evidence?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 21

In article <1qibo2$f4o@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
 
>
>#>In the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more
>#>dangerous than atheist fanatics, I'll continue to be wary of fanatics of
>#>any stripe.
>#
>#I think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot.
>
>Fair point, actually.  I mentioned theists and atheists, but left out
>agnostics.  Mea culpa.
>
 
No wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries
to pass as an agnostic. I still remember your post about your daughter
singing Chrismas Carols and your feelings of it well.
 
By the way, would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions
you left open when you ceased to respond last time?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Theism  Evidence
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 21

In article 1qibo2f4ohorusapmchpsnide
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 

In the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more
dangerous than atheist fanatics Ill continue to be wary of fanatics of
any stripe

I think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot

Fair point actually  I mentioned theists and atheists but left out
agnostics  Mea culpa

 
No wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries
to pass as an agnostic I still remember your post about your daughter
singing Chrismas Carols and your feelings of it well
 
By the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions
you left open when you ceased to respond last time
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Activities in Tucson, AZ ?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 7

I would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational
opportunities in the Tucson, Arizona area.  E-mail responses appreciated.
My mail feed is intermittent, so please try one or all of these addresses.

Ben Muniz      w(818)586-3578      MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@beach.rockwell.com 
or:  bmuniz@a1tms1.remnet.ab.com  MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Activities in Tucson AZ 
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 7

I would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational
opportunities in the Tucson Arizona area  Email responses appreciated
My mail feed is intermittent so please try one or all of these addresses

Ben Muniz      w8185863578      MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetbeachrockwellcom 
or  bmuniza1tms1remnetabcom  MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Gamma Ray Bursters.  WHere  are they.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

  What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
hyperspace :-)

but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.

pat  


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Gamma Ray Bursters  WHere  are they
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

  What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away

Given the enormous  power  i was just wondering  what if they are
quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by

Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges   

my own pet theory is that its  Flying saucers  entering
hyperspace 

but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes  i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in

pat  


preprocess doc  From: dchien@hougen.seas.ucla.edu (David H. Chien)
Subject: Orbit data - help needed
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 43

I have the "osculating elements at perigee" of an orbit, which I need
to convert to something useful, preferably distance from the earth
in evenly spaced time intervals. A GSM coordinate system is preferable,
but I convert from other systems. C, pascal, or fortran code, or
if you can point me to a book or something that'd be great.

here's the first few lines of the file.

0  ()
1  (2X, A3, 7X, A30)
2  (2X, I5, 2X, A3, 2X, E24.18)
3  (4X, A3, 7X, E24.18)
1  SMA       SEMI-MAJOR AXIS
1  ECC       ECCENTRICITY
1  INC       INCLINATION
1  OMG       RA OF ASCENDING NODE
1  POM       ARGUMENT OF PERICENTRE
1  TRA       TRUE ANOMALY
1  HAP       APOCENTRE HEIGHT
1  HPE       PERICENTRE HEIGHT
2      3  BEG  0.167290000000000000E+05
3    SMA       0.829159999999995925E+05
3    ECC       0.692307999999998591E+00
3    INC       0.899999999999999858E+02
3    OMG       0.184369999999999994E+03
3    POM       0.336549999999999955E+03
3    TRA       0.359999999999999943E+03
3    HAP       0.133941270127999174E+06
3    HPE       0.191344498719999910E+05
2      1  REF  0.167317532658774153E+05
3    SMA       0.829125167527418671E+05
3    ECC       0.691472268118590319E+00
3    INC       0.899596754214342091E+02
3    OMG       0.184377521828175002E+03
3    POM       0.336683788851850579E+03
3    TRA       0.153847166458030088E-05
3    HAP       0.133866082767180880E+06
3    HPE       0.192026707383028306E+05

Thanks in advance,

larry kepko
lkepko@igpp.ucla.edu

after prepro  From dchienhougenseasuclaedu David H Chien
Subject Orbit data  help needed
Organization SEASnet University of California Los Angeles
Lines 43

I have the osculating elements at perigee of an orbit which I need
to convert to something useful preferably distance from the earth
in evenly spaced time intervals A GSM coordinate system is preferable
but I convert from other systems C pascal or fortran code or
if you can point me to a book or something thatd be great

heres the first few lines of the file

0  
1  2X A3 7X A30
2  2X I5 2X A3 2X E2418
3  4X A3 7X E2418
1  SMA       SEMIMAJOR AXIS
1  ECC       ECCENTRICITY
1  INC       INCLINATION
1  OMG       RA OF ASCENDING NODE
1  POM       ARGUMENT OF PERICENTRE
1  TRA       TRUE ANOMALY
1  HAP       APOCENTRE HEIGHT
1  HPE       PERICENTRE HEIGHT
2      3  BEG  0167290000000000000E05
3    SMA       0829159999999995925E05
3    ECC       0692307999999998591E00
3    INC       0899999999999999858E02
3    OMG       0184369999999999994E03
3    POM       0336549999999999955E03
3    TRA       0359999999999999943E03
3    HAP       0133941270127999174E06
3    HPE       0191344498719999910E05
2      1  REF  0167317532658774153E05
3    SMA       0829125167527418671E05
3    ECC       0691472268118590319E00
3    INC       0899596754214342091E02
3    OMG       0184377521828175002E03
3    POM       0336683788851850579E03
3    TRA       0153847166458030088E05
3    HAP       0133866082767180880E06
3    HPE       0192026707383028306E05

Thanks in advance

larry kepko
lkepkoigppuclaedu

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 28

In article <C4w5pv.JxD@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:

>There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
>that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
>be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. There is no need
>for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
>no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
>physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
>determnined.

	This posts contains too many fallacies to respond too.

	1) The abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of 
freewill. 

	You have not shown this. You have not even attempted to. However,
the existance of an Omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals.*

	* Posted over five months ago. No one has been able to refute it, 
nor give any reasonable reasons against it.

--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 28

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes

There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature  exclusively There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
determnined

	This posts contains too many fallacies to respond too

	1 The abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of 
freewill 

	You have not shown this You have not even attempted to However
the existance of an Omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals

	 Posted over five months ago No one has been able to refute it 
nor give any reasonable reasons against it




       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: enf021@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Achurist)
Subject: Re: Abyss: breathing fluids
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Coventry University
Lines: 31

In article <93089.204431GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> Callec Dradja <GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I am a bit nervous about posting this beacause it is begining to
>stray fron the topic of space but then again that doesn't seem to
>stop alot of other people. :-)
>
>With all of this talk about breathing at high pressures, I began
>to think about the movie Abyss. If you remember, in that movie one
>of the characters dove to great depths by wearing a suit that used
>a fluid that carries oxegen as opposed to some sort of gas. Now I
>have heard that mice can breath this fluid but for some reason, humans
>are unable to. Does anyone know more details about this?
>
>Gregson Vaux
>

I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 2-3 minutes.
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on 
hold, or else!! That's about it. Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature. ~10 I think, depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course!

Acurist









after prepro  From enf021cckcoventryacuk Achurist
Subject Re Abyss breathing fluids
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Coventry University
Lines 31

In article 93089204431GRV101psuvmpsuedu Callec Dradja  writes
I am a bit nervous about posting this beacause it is begining to
stray fron the topic of space but then again that doesnt seem to
stop alot of other people 

With all of this talk about breathing at high pressures I began
to think about the movie Abyss If you remember in that movie one
of the characters dove to great depths by wearing a suit that used
a fluid that carries oxegen as opposed to some sort of gas Now I
have heard that mice can breath this fluid but for some reason humans
are unable to Does anyone know more details about this

Gregson Vaux


I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 23 minutes
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on 
hold or else Thats about it Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature 10 I think depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course

Acurist









preprocess doc  From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: I don't beleive in you either.
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Apr13.213055.818@antioc.antioch.edu> smauldin@antioc.antioch.edu writes:
>I stopped believing in you as well, long before the invention of technology.
>
>--GOD
>

Don't listen to this guy, he's just a crank.  At first, this business
about being the "one true god" was tolerated by the rest of us,
but now it has gotten completely out of hand.

Besides, it really isn't so bad when people stop believing in you.
It's much more relaxing when mortals aren't always begging you for favors.

-- ZEUS


after prepro  From siefermesteinuwashingtonedu Eric Sieferman
Subject Re I dont beleive in you either
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost steinuwashingtonedu

In article 1993Apr13213055818antiocantiochedu smauldinantiocantiochedu writes
I stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology

GOD


Dont listen to this guy hes just a crank  At first this business
about being the one true god was tolerated by the rest of us
but now it has gotten completely out of hand

Besides it really isnt so bad when people stop believing in you
Its much more relaxing when mortals arent always begging you for favors

 ZEUS


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: sgi
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr6.030734.28563@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer ) writes:
>
> I wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic 
> (TM) viewpoint though.  For all we know, the prophet's cousin and
> the Fourth Khalif Hazret-i Ali may have said this after a 
> frustrating night with a woman.

That's very interesting.    I wonder, are women's reactions
recorded after a frustrating night with a man?   Is that
considered to be important?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Islam  Dress Code for women
Organization sgi
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr603073428563ennewseasasuedu guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer  writes

 I wouldnt consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic 
 TM viewpoint though  For all we know the prophets cousin and
 the Fourth Khalif Hazreti Ali may have said this after a 
 frustrating night with a woman

Thats very interesting    I wonder are womens reactions
recorded after a frustrating night with a man   Is that
considered to be important

jon

preprocess doc  From: xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Science News article on Federal R&D
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 8

Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal R&D funding.

Very briefly, all R&D is being shifted to gaining current 
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility.
-- 
Chuck Divine

after prepro  From xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Science News article on Federal RD
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 8

Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal RD funding

Very briefly all RD is being shifted to gaining current 
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility
 
Chuck Divine

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured?
Lines: 9

The traditions of the church hold that all the "apostles" (meaning the 11
surviving disciples, Matthias, Barnabas and Paul) were martyred, except for
John.  "Tradition" should be understood to read "early church writings other
than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures".
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured
Lines 9

The traditions of the church hold that all the apostles meaning the 11
surviving disciples Matthias Barnabas and Paul were martyred except for
John  Tradition should be understood to read early church writings other
than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1ql8mdINN674@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>>>This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
>>>or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden
>>>by the US Constitution.
>>Yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why
>>a) you have the Supreme Court, and b) it makes no sense to refer
>>to the Constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the
>>word "cruel".
>
>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution.  They
>picked words whose meanings implied the intent.  We have already looked
>in the dictionary to define the word.  Isn't this sufficient?

	We only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers 
consider cruel and unusual punishment?

	Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.

	Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those 
days ], etc. 

	All would be considered cruel under your definition.
	All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.

--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

        John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.



after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Cruel was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden
by the US Constitution
Yes but they didnt say what they meant by cruel which is why
a you have the Supreme Court and b it makes no sense to refer
to the Constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the
word cruel

They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution  They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent  We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word  Isnt this sufficient

	We only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers 
consider cruel and unusual punishment

	Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine

	Firing squad  [ note not a clean way to die back in those 
days ] etc 

	All would be considered cruel under your definition
	All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers

 

         Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken 

        John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word



preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>> The probability that the "automobile system" will kill someone 
>> innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to 1, just 
>> like the court system.
>However, anyone who doesn't like the "automobile system" can
>opt out, as I have.

This isn't true.  Many people are forced to use the "automobile system."
I certainly don't use it by choice.  If there were other ways of getting
around, I'd do it.

>Secondly, we do try to make the "automobile system" as safe
>as possible, because we *do* recognize the danger to the 
>innocent, whereas the US - the current example - is not trying
>to make the "Court System" safer, which it could fairly easily
>do by replacing fatal punishments with non-fatal punishments.

But I think that the Court system has been refined--over hundreds of
years in the US, Britain, and other countries.  We have tried to make
it as fair as possible.  Can it be made better (without removing the
death penalty)?  Besides, life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment
to me.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  The probability that the automobile system will kill someone 
 innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to 1 just 
 like the court system
However anyone who doesnt like the automobile system can
opt out as I have

This isnt true  Many people are forced to use the automobile system
I certainly dont use it by choice  If there were other ways of getting
around Id do it

Secondly we do try to make the automobile system as safe
as possible because we do recognize the danger to the 
innocent whereas the US  the current example  is not trying
to make the Court System safer which it could fairly easily
do by replacing fatal punishments with nonfatal punishments

But I think that the Court system has been refinedover hundreds of
years in the US Britain and other countries  We have tried to make
it as fair as possible  Can it be made better without removing the
death penalty  Besides life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment
to me

keith

preprocess doc  From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams)
Subject: Ariane v.56 Mission Data
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 114



ARIANESPACE FLIGHT 56

(Flight V.56 was originally intended to carry the Hughes HS-601 series 
Galaxy IV satellite, but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight.)

The 56th Ariane launch is now scheduled to place the ASTRA 1C and ARSENE 
satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit (GTO), with 
inclination reduced to 5 degrees and apogee altitude increased by 150 km.
This will be the 28th launch of an Ariane 4 and the first in the 42L 
configuration, with 2 liquid strap-on boosters (PAL).  It will be launched
from the newly refurbished Ariane launch complex ELA 2, in Kourou - French 
Guiana.

The launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is 3,147 kg
of which 2,944 kg represents the satellite mass.  The total vehicle mass
at liftoff is 361,778 kg.


Required Orbit Characteristics:
  Perigee Altitude ..... 200 km
  Apogee Altitude ...... 36,160 km at injection 
  Inclination ..........   5 degrees


The Ariane 42L lift-off for Flight 56 is scheduled on Thursday,
April 29, 1993, as soon as possible within the following launch 
window:

     Kourou Time        GMT (04/30/93)      Washington, DC
     21:52 - 22:50      00:52 - 01:50       20:52 - 21:50


LAUNCH VEHICLE:

Ariane 42L.  This is a three-stage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid 
fueled strap-on boosters.  The first stage (L220) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by 4 liquid fueled Viking V engines.  The second stage (L33)
is built by MBB Erno and is powered by a single Viking IV engine.  Both the
Viking IV and V engines are manufactured by SEP.  The first and second stages
use a biliquid UH25/N2O4 fuel. The third stage (H10) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by a cryogenic H2/O2 fueled HM-7B engine built by SEP. The two
strap-on boosters (PAL) are each powered by a Viking VI engine, also built 
by SEP, which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages.  
The fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high on the pad.  
It uses the Type 01 Ariane Short payload fairing.


Flight Profile:

 +02:21  Liquid strap-on booster jettison
 +03:11  First stage separation
 +03:18  Second stage ignition
 +04:10  Fairing jettison
 +05:21  Second stage separation
 +05:26  Third stage ignition
 +17:30  Third stage shutdown / orbit injection
 +19:56  ASTRA 1C separation
 +22:36  Cyclade adapter separation
 +24:26  ARSENE separation
 +28:47  End of Ariane mission 56


PAYLOADS:

ASTRA 1C is the third spacecraft in the fleet of "Societe Europeenne
des Satellites" to broadcast direct TV to homes all over Europe.
Built by Hughes, it will be the second HS-601 launched by Ariane.

  Total mass at lift-off .... 2,790 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion ..... 1,700 kg
  Dry mass .................. 1,180 kg     
  On-board power ............ 3,300 W (end of life)
  Nominal lifetime .......... 15 years     
  Span of solar panels ...... 21 m
  On-Orbit position ......... 19.2 degrees east, over Africa.

 Transmission capacity:  
   34 channels in Ku-band, via 18 transponders.

 In-flight operations:
   Solar array deployment ............ about 6 days after lift-off
   First of 3 apogee motor firings ... about 40 hours after lift-off 
                                       at 4th apogee


ARSENE is the first spacecraft built by the European Space Industry
for the benefit of the world amateur radio community.  

  Total mass at lift-off .... 154 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion .....  98 kg
  Dry mass ..................  97 kg     
  On-board power ............ 42 W (end of life)
  Nominal lifetime .......... 3 years     
  Spacecraft dimensions ..... 1.1m x .96m
  Orbital parameters ........ 20000/36000 km, 0 inclination, period 17:30.

 Transmission capacity:  
   S-band:  1 transponder at 2.446 ghz
   VHF/UHF: 145/435 mhz 


LAUNCH COVERAGE:

All Ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from Kourou. 
Coverage begins at 30 minutes before launch and continues until 
all payloads have been deployed.  This mission will likely be carried
in the US on Galaxy 6, however it could be Galaxy 7 or another satellite.
(What is the European satellite normally used for Ariane coverage?)
 

-{ Dean Adams }-


after prepro  From dnadamsnyxcsduedu Dean Adams
Subject Ariane v56 Mission Data
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math  Comp Sci
Lines 114



ARIANESPACE FLIGHT 56

Flight V56 was originally intended to carry the Hughes HS601 series 
Galaxy IV satellite but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight

The 56th Ariane launch is now scheduled to place the ASTRA 1C and ARSENE 
satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit GTO with 
inclination reduced to 5 degrees and apogee altitude increased by 150 km
This will be the 28th launch of an Ariane 4 and the first in the 42L 
configuration with 2 liquid strapon boosters PAL  It will be launched
from the newly refurbished Ariane launch complex ELA 2 in Kourou  French 
Guiana

The launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is 3147 kg
of which 2944 kg represents the satellite mass  The total vehicle mass
at liftoff is 361778 kg


Required Orbit Characteristics
  Perigee Altitude  200 km
  Apogee Altitude  36160 km at injection 
  Inclination    5 degrees


The Ariane 42L liftoff for Flight 56 is scheduled on Thursday
April 29 1993 as soon as possible within the following launch 
window

     Kourou Time        GMT 043093      Washington DC
     2152  2250      0052  0150       2052  2150


LAUNCH VEHICLE

Ariane 42L  This is a threestage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid 
fueled strapon boosters  The first stage L220 is built by Aerospatiale
and is powered by 4 liquid fueled Viking V engines  The second stage L33
is built by MBB Erno and is powered by a single Viking IV engine  Both the
Viking IV and V engines are manufactured by SEP  The first and second stages
use a biliquid UH25N2O4 fuel The third stage H10 is built by Aerospatiale
and is powered by a cryogenic H2O2 fueled HM7B engine built by SEP The two
strapon boosters PAL are each powered by a Viking VI engine also built 
by SEP which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages  
The fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high on the pad  
It uses the Type 01 Ariane Short payload fairing


Flight Profile

 0221  Liquid strapon booster jettison
 0311  First stage separation
 0318  Second stage ignition
 0410  Fairing jettison
 0521  Second stage separation
 0526  Third stage ignition
 1730  Third stage shutdown  orbit injection
 1956  ASTRA 1C separation
 2236  Cyclade adapter separation
 2426  ARSENE separation
 2847  End of Ariane mission 56


PAYLOADS

ASTRA 1C is the third spacecraft in the fleet of Societe Europeenne
des Satellites to broadcast direct TV to homes all over Europe
Built by Hughes it will be the second HS601 launched by Ariane

  Total mass at liftoff  2790 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion  1700 kg
  Dry mass  1180 kg     
  Onboard power  3300 W end of life
  Nominal lifetime  15 years     
  Span of solar panels  21 m
  OnOrbit position  192 degrees east over Africa

 Transmission capacity  
   34 channels in Kuband via 18 transponders

 Inflight operations
   Solar array deployment  about 6 days after liftoff
   First of 3 apogee motor firings  about 40 hours after liftoff 
                                       at 4th apogee


ARSENE is the first spacecraft built by the European Space Industry
for the benefit of the world amateur radio community  

  Total mass at liftoff  154 kg
  Mass at GEO insertion   98 kg
  Dry mass   97 kg     
  Onboard power  42 W end of life
  Nominal lifetime  3 years     
  Spacecraft dimensions  11m x 96m
  Orbital parameters  2000036000 km 0 inclination period 1730

 Transmission capacity  
   Sband  1 transponder at 2446 ghz
   VHFUHF 145435 mhz 


LAUNCH COVERAGE

All Ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from Kourou 
Coverage begins at 30 minutes before launch and continues until 
all payloads have been deployed  This mission will likely be carried
in the US on Galaxy 6 however it could be Galaxy 7 or another satellite
What is the European satellite normally used for Ariane coverage
 

 Dean Adams 


preprocess doc  From: mike@starburst.umd.edu (Michael F. Santangelo)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: University of Maryland, Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
Lines: 47
NNTP-Posting-Host: starburst.umd.edu

dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock) writes:

...text of options "A" and "B" deleted...

>Option C - Single Core Launch Station.
>This is the JSC lead option. Basically, you take a 23 ft diameter
>cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
>the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a 
>regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
>motors, and launch the can. Some key features are:
>  - Complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout
>  - 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
>  - body mounted radiators (which adds protection against
>    micrometeroid & orbital debris)
>  - 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end)
>  - 7 berthing ports
>  - a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet
>    (twice the volume of skylab).
>  - 7 floors, center passageway between floors
>  - 10 kW of housekeeping power

Only 10KW?

>  - graceful degradation with failures (8 power channels, 4 thermal
>    loops, dual environmental control & life support system)
>  - increased crew time for utilization
>  - 1 micro-g thru out the core module

Ha!  "North America Modular SPACE STATION construction" :-)
Same apprach, same reasoning: "construction occurs under assembly
line conditions, no random weather problems interupting site-work
on your home - better quality control" -- sounds like first "-"
point above :-)

Somehow I have a strange attraction for this idea (living in
a modular home maybe has altered my mind).  The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSME's and
a nosecone on it and "just launching it."  I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction).

--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Michael F. Santangelo                 + Internet: mike@cbl.umd.edu      [work]
Dept. Head-Computer & Network Systems +           mike@kavishar.umd.edu [home]
UMCEES / CBL (Solomons Island)        + BITNET:   MIKE@UMUC  [fwd to mike@cbl]

after prepro  From mikestarburstumdedu Michael F Santangelo
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization University of Maryland Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
Lines 47
NNTPPostingHost starburstumdedu

dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock writes

text of options A and B deleted

Option C  Single Core Launch Station
This is the JSC lead option Basically you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder thats 92 ft long slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a 
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors and launch the can Some key features are
   Complete endtoend ground integration and checkout
   4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
   body mounted radiators which adds protection against
    micrometeroid  orbital debris
   2 centerline docking ports one on each end
   7 berthing ports
   a single pressurized volume approximately 26000 cubic feet
    twice the volume of skylab
   7 floors center passageway between floors
   10 kW of housekeeping power

Only 10KW

   graceful degradation with failures 8 power channels 4 thermal
    loops dual environmental control  life support system
   increased crew time for utilization
   1 microg thru out the core module

Ha  North America Modular SPACE STATION construction 
Same apprach same reasoning construction occurs under assembly
line conditions no random weather problems interupting sitework
on your home  better quality control  sounds like first 
point above 

Somehow I have a strange attraction for this idea living in
a modular home maybe has altered my mind  The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSMEs and
a nosecone on it and just launching it  I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged inorbit construction



Michael F Santangelo                  Internet mikecblumdedu      [work]
Dept HeadComputer  Network Systems            mikekavisharumdedu [home]
UMCEES  CBL Solomons Island         BITNET   MIKEUMUC  [fwd to mikecbl]

preprocess doc  From: lazarus@katarina.dev.cdx.mot.com (John McGlaughlin)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: katarina.dev.cdx.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Lines: 18

rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross  Borden) writes:

>	Quick!  Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:

>			"Hey, I read sci.space!"

>Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
>(This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
>the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")

Don't you think it would be better to E-mail back to you that we read sci.space
so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get
BW'd to death.  Or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into
a single post and save on header bandwidth....  Not meaning to be taken as a 
flame  it's late and we have to work toward a demo .... little punchy
-- 

-jftm-

after prepro  From lazaruskatarinadevcdxmotcom John McGlaughlin
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost katarinadevcdxmotcom
Organization Motorola Codex Canton Massachusetts
Lines 18

rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross  Borden writes

	Quick  Everyone who sees this post a reply that says

			Hey I read scispace

Then we can count them and find out how many there are 
This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways

Dont you think it would be better to Email back to you that we read scispace
so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get
BWd to death  Or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into
a single post and save on header bandwidth  Not meaning to be taken as a 
flame  its late and we have to work toward a demo  little punchy
 

jftm

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: japanese moon landing/temporary orbit
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 25

rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again)) writes:

>The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'.  These
>are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
>three body system.  The probe was launched into this region for the
>earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
>allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
>down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
>expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
>originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
>was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
>deceleration.


I should probably re-post this with another title, so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of "temporary orbits..."

Another possible temporary orbit:

--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject japanese moon landingtemporary orbit
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 25

rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again writes

The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions  These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
three body system  The probe was launched into this region for the
earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration


I should probably repost this with another title so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of temporary orbits

Another possible temporary orbit


Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: Steve_Mullins@vos.stratus.com
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Organization: Stratus Computer, Marlboro Ma.
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: m72.eng.stratus.com


In article <1993Apr16.130430.1@ccsua.ctstateu.edu> kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu wrote: 
>In article <kmr4.1563.734805744@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>>    Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible. 
>> 
>     Since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?There must be a God
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     of inbreeding to which you are his only son.


a) I think that he has a rather witty .sig file.  It sums up a great
   deal of atheistic thought (IMO) in one simple sentence.
b) Atheism isn't an "other religion".


sm
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve_Mullins@vos.stratus.com    () "If a man empties his purse into his
My opinions <> Stratus' opinions ()   head, no one can take it from him
------------------------------   ()   ---------------Benjamin Franklin

after prepro  From Steve_Mullinsvosstratuscom
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Organization Stratus Computer Marlboro Ma
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost m72engstratuscom


In article 1993Apr161304301ccsuactstateuedu kellybccsuactstateuedu wrote 
In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
    Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible 
 
     Since when does atheism mean trashing other religionsThere must be a God
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     of inbreeding to which you are his only son


a I think that he has a rather witty sig file  It sums up a great
   deal of atheistic thought IMO in one simple sentence
b Atheism isnt an other religion


sm

Steve_Mullinsvosstratuscom     If a man empties his purse into his
My opinions  Stratus opinions    head no one can take it from him
      Benjamin Franklin

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
From: Robert Coe <bob@1776.COM>
Distribution: world
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA
Lines: 23

jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:

> >> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
> >> 
> >> April  1973     83 jupiter radii
> >> August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii
> > 
> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU.  So the
> > 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
> > Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
> > -- 
> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.

Hmmmm....  The prefix "peri-" is Greek, not Latin, so it's usually used
with the Greek form of the name of the body being orbited.  (That's why
it's "perihelion" rather than "perisol", "perigee" rather than "periterr",
and "pericynthion" rather than "perilune".)  So for Jupiter I'd expect it
to be something like "perizeon".)   :^)

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265

after prepro  Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
From Robert Coe 
Distribution world
Organization 1776 Enterprises Sudbury MA
Lines 23

jgarlandkeanucsmunca writes

  Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
  
  April  1973     83 jupiter radii
  August 1970     3 jupiter radii
  
  Where 1 Jupiter radius  71000 km  44000 mi  00005 AU  So the
  1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
  Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
   
 Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language

Hmmmm  The prefix peri is Greek not Latin so its usually used
with the Greek form of the name of the body being orbited  Thats why
its perihelion rather than perisol perigee rather than periterr
and pericynthion rather than perilune  So for Jupiter Id expect it
to be something like perizeon   ^

   ___            _                                             Bob
   __ _         _   _
___ ___  ____________________________________________ bob1776COM
Robert K Coe  14 Churchill St Sudbury Massachusetts 01776  5084433265

preprocess doc  From: MAILRP%ESA.BITNET@vm.gmd.de
Subject: message from Space Digest
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 62





Press Release No.19-93
Paris, 22 April 1993

Users of ESA's Olympus satellite report on the outcome of
their experiments

"Today Europe's space telecommunications sector would not
be blossoming as it now does, had OLYMPUS not provided
a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s". This
summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300
participants at the Conference on Olympus Utilisation held in
Seville on 20-22-April 1993. The conference was organised by
the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Spanish Centre for
the Development of Industrial Technology (CDTI).

OLYMPUS has been particularly useful :
-      in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of
       new users, thanks to satellite terminals with very small
       antennas (VSATs). OLYMPUS experiments have tested
       data transmission, videoconferencing, business television,
       distance teaching and rural telephony, to give but a few
       examples.

-      in opening the door to new telecommunications services
       which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower-
       frequency bands; OLYMPUS was the first satellite over
       Europe to offer capacity in the 20/30 GHz band.

-      in establishing two-way data relay links  OLYMPUS
       received for the first time in Europe, over several months,
       high-volume data from a low-Earth orbiting spacecraft and
       then distributed it to various centres in Europe.

When OLYMPUS was launched on 12 July 1989 it was the
world's largest telecommunications satellite; and no other
satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four
different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands.

OLYMPUS users range from individual experimenters to some
of the world's largest businesses. Access to the satellite is
given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or
services; over the past four years some 200 companies and
organisations made use of this opportunity, as well as over
100 members of the EUROSTEP distance-learning
organisation.



As the new technologies and services tested by these
OLYMPUS users enter the commercial market, they then
make use of operational satellites such as those of
EUTELSAT.

OLYMPUS utilisation will continue through 1993 and 1994,
when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the
end of its design life.

       

after prepro  From MAILRPESABITNETvmgmdde
Subject message from Space Digest
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 62





Press Release No1993
Paris 22 April 1993

Users of ESAs Olympus satellite report on the outcome of
their experiments

Today Europes space telecommunications sector would not
be blossoming as it now does had OLYMPUS not provided
a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s This
summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300
participants at the Conference on Olympus Utilisation held in
Seville on 2022April 1993 The conference was organised by
the European Space Agency ESA and the Spanish Centre for
the Development of Industrial Technology CDTI

OLYMPUS has been particularly useful 
      in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of
       new users thanks to satellite terminals with very small
       antennas VSATs OLYMPUS experiments have tested
       data transmission videoconferencing business television
       distance teaching and rural telephony to give but a few
       examples

      in opening the door to new telecommunications services
       which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower
       frequency bands OLYMPUS was the first satellite over
       Europe to offer capacity in the 2030 GHz band

      in establishing twoway data relay links  OLYMPUS
       received for the first time in Europe over several months
       highvolume data from a lowEarth orbiting spacecraft and
       then distributed it to various centres in Europe

When OLYMPUS was launched on 12 July 1989 it was the
worlds largest telecommunications satellite and no other
satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four
different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands

OLYMPUS users range from individual experimenters to some
of the worlds largest businesses Access to the satellite is
given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or
services over the past four years some 200 companies and
organisations made use of this opportunity as well as over
100 members of the EUROSTEP distancelearning
organisation



As the new technologies and services tested by these
OLYMPUS users enter the commercial market they then
make use of operational satellites such as those of
EUTELSAT

OLYMPUS utilisation will continue through 1993 and 1994
when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the
end of its design life

       

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 25

In article <115565@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>>I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>>ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>>community in the Uk and elsewhere.
>
>Grow up, childish propagandist.
>

  Gosh, Gregg.  I'm pretty good a reading between the lines, but
  you've given me precious little to work with in this refutation.
  Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit?  Or did I miss the full
  grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism?



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 25

In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere

Grow up childish propagandist


  Gosh Gregg  Im pretty good a reading between the lines but
  youve given me precious little to work with in this refutation
  Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit  Or did I miss the full
  grandeur of its content by virtue of my blinding atheism



\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Request for Support
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 35



I have a request for those who would like to see Charley Wingate
respond to the "Charley Challenges" (and judging from my e-mail, there
appear to be quite a few of you.)  

It is clear that Mr. Wingate intends to continue to post tangential or
unrelated articles while ingoring the Challenges themselves.  Between
the last two re-postings of the Challenges, I noted perhaps a dozen or
more posts by Mr. Wingate, none of which answered a single Challenge.  

It seems unmistakable to me that Mr. Wingate hopes that the questions
will just go away, and he is doing his level best to change the
subject.  Given that this seems a rather common net.theist tactic, I
would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers,
in the following manner:

1. Ignore any future articles by Mr. Wingate that do not address the
Challenges, until he answers them or explictly announces that he
refuses to do so.

--or--

2. If you must respond to one of his articles, include within it
something similar to the following:

    "Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges."

Really, I'm not looking to humiliate anyone here, I just want some
honest answers.  You wouldn't think that honesty would be too much to
ask from a devout Christian, would you?  

Nevermind, that was a rhetorical question.

--Dave Wood

after prepro  From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Request for Support
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 35



I have a request for those who would like to see Charley Wingate
respond to the Charley Challenges and judging from my email there
appear to be quite a few of you  

It is clear that Mr Wingate intends to continue to post tangential or
unrelated articles while ingoring the Challenges themselves  Between
the last two repostings of the Challenges I noted perhaps a dozen or
more posts by Mr Wingate none of which answered a single Challenge  

It seems unmistakable to me that Mr Wingate hopes that the questions
will just go away and he is doing his level best to change the
subject  Given that this seems a rather common nettheist tactic I
would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers
in the following manner

1 Ignore any future articles by Mr Wingate that do not address the
Challenges until he answers them or explictly announces that he
refuses to do so

or

2 If you must respond to one of his articles include within it
something similar to the following

    Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges

Really Im not looking to humiliate anyone here I just want some
honest answers  You wouldnt think that honesty would be too much to
ask from a devout Christian would you  

Nevermind that was a rhetorical question

Dave Wood

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 09/15 - Mission Schedules
Supersedes: <schedule_730956538@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 177
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:59:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/schedule
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:23 $

SPACE SHUTTLE ANSWERS, LAUNCH SCHEDULES, TV COVERAGE

    SHUTTLE LAUNCHINGS AND LANDINGS; SCHEDULES AND HOW TO SEE THEM

    Shuttle operations are discussed in the Usenet group sci.space.shuttle,
    and Ken Hollis (gandalf@pro-electric.cts.com) posts a compressed version
    of the shuttle manifest (launch dates and other information)
    periodically there. The manifest is also available from the Ames SPACE
    archive in SPACE/FAQ/manifest. The portion of his manifest formerly
    included in this FAQ has been removed; please refer to his posting or
    the archived copy. For the most up to date information on upcoming
    missions, call (407) 867-INFO (867-4636) at Kennedy Space Center.

    Official NASA shuttle status reports are posted to sci.space.news
    frequently.


    WHY DOES THE SHUTTLE ROLL JUST AFTER LIFTOFF?

    The following answer and translation are provided by Ken Jenks
    (kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov).

    The "Ascent Guidance and Flight Control Training Manual," ASC G&C 2102,
    says:

	"During the vertical rise phase, the launch pad attitude is
	commanded until an I-loaded V(rel) sufficient to assure launch tower
	clearance is achieved. Then, the tilt maneuver (roll program)
	orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a
	negative q-alpha, which in turn alleviates structural loading. Other
	advantages with this attitude are performance gain, decreased abort
	maneuver complexity, improved S-band look angles, and crew view of
	the horizon. The tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining
	downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff (MECO) target
	in second stage."

    This really is a good answer, but it's couched in NASA jargon. I'll try
    to interpret.

    1)	We wait until the Shuttle clears the tower before rolling.

    2)	Then, we roll the Shuttle around so that the angle of attack
	between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere (the
	"relative wind") and the chord of the wings (the imaginary line
	between the leading edge and the trailing edge) is a slightly
	negative angle ("a negative q-alpha").	This causes a little bit of
	"downward" force (toward the belly of the Orbiter, or the +Z
	direction) and this force "alleviates structural loading."
	We have to be careful about those wings -- they're about the
	most "delicate" part of the vehicle.

    3)	The new attitude (after the roll) also allows us to carry more
	mass to orbit, or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass, or
	to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be
	the case if we didn't roll ("performance gain").

    4)	The new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated
	flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort
	maneuvers, the Return To Launch Site ("decreased abort maneuver
	complexity").

    5)	The new attitude improves the ability for ground-based radio
	antennae to have a good line-of-sight signal with the S-band radio
	antennae on the Orbiter ("improved S-band look angles").

    6)	The new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon, which is a
	helpful (but not mandatory) part of piloting any flying machine.

    7)	The new attitude orients the Shuttle so that the body is
	more nearly parallel with the ground, and the nose to the east
	(usually).  This allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity
	in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit.  Remember:
	velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction.
	The Shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its
	velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit.

    This all begs the question, "Why isn't the launch pad oriented to give
    this nice attitude to begin with?  Why does the Shuttle need to roll to
    achieve that attitude?"  The answer is that the pads were leftovers
    from the Apollo days.  The Shuttle straddles two flame trenches -- one
    for the Solid Rocket Motor exhaust, one for the Space Shuttle Main
    Engine exhaust.  (You can see the effects of this on any daytime
    launch.  The SRM exhaust is dirty gray garbage, and the SSME exhaust is
    fluffy white steam.  Watch for the difference between the "top"
    [Orbiter side] and the "bottom" [External Tank side] of the stack.) The
    access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented
    basically the same way they were for the Saturn V's.  (A side note: the
    Saturn V's also had a roll program.  Don't ask me why -- I'm a Shuttle
    guy.)

    I checked with a buddy in Ascent Dynamics.	He added that the "roll
    maneuver" is really a maneuver in all three axes: roll, pitch and yaw.
    The roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons
    stated.  The pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping
    the angle of attack (q-alpha) within a tight tolerance.  The yaw
    component is used to determine the orbital inclination.  The total
    maneuver is really expressed as a "quaternion," a grad-level-math
    concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one four-element
    array.


    HOW TO RECEIVE THE NASA TV CHANNEL, NASA SELECT

    NASA SELECT is broadcast by satellite. If you have access to a satellite
    dish, you can find SELECT on Satcom F2R, Transponder 13, C-Band, 72
    degrees West Longitude, Audio 6.8, Frequency 3960 MHz. F2R is stationed
    over the Atlantic, and is increasingly difficult to receive from
    California and points west. During events of special interest (e.g.
    shuttle missions), SELECT is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite
    for these viewers.

    If you can't get a satellite feed, some cable operators carry SELECT.
    It's worth asking if yours doesn't.

    The SELECT schedule is found in the NASA Headline News which is
    frequently posted to sci.space.news. Generally it carries press
    conferences, briefings by NASA officials, and live coverage of shuttle
    missions and planetary encounters. SELECT has recently begun carrying
    much more secondary material (associated with SPACELINK) when missions
    are not being covered.


    AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES FOR SHUTTLE MISSIONS

    The following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio:

	W6FXN  - Los Angeles
	K6MF   - Ames Research Center, Mountain View, California
	WA3NAN - Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt, Maryland.
	W5RRR  - Johnson Space Center (JSC), Houston, Texas
	W6VIO  - Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California.
	W1AW Voice Bulletins

	Station    VHF	   10m	   15m	   20m	  40m	 80m
	------	 ------  ------  ------  ------  -----	-----
	W6FXN	 145.46
	K6MF	 145.585			 7.165	3.840
	WA3NAN	 147.45  28.650  21.395  14.295  7.185	3.860
	W5RRR	 146.64  28.400  21.350  14.280  7.227	3.850
	W6VIO	 224.04		 21.340  14.270
	W6VIO	 224.04		 21.280  14.282  7.165	3.840
	W1AW		 28.590  21.390  14.290  7.290	3.990

    W5RRR transmits mission audio on 146.64, a special event station on the
    other frequencies supplying Keplerian Elements and mission information.

    W1AW also transmits on 147.555, 18.160. No mission audio but they
    transmit voice bulletins at 0245 and 0545 UTC.

    Frequencies in the 10-20m bands require USB and frequencies in the 40
    and 80m bands LSB. Use FM for the VHF frequencies.

    [This item was most recently updated courtesy of Gary Morris
    (g@telesoft.com, KK6YB, N5QWC)]


    SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER FUEL COMPOSITION

    Reference: "Shuttle Flight Operations Manual" Volume 8B - Solid Rocket
    Booster Systems, NASA Document JSC-12770

    Propellant Composition (percent)

    Ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer)			69.6
    Aluminum						16
    Iron Oxide (burn rate catalyst)			0.4
    Polybutadiene-acrilic acid-acrylonitrile (a rubber) 12.04
    Epoxy curing agent					1.96

    End reference

    Comment: The aluminum, rubber, and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer.

NEXT: FAQ #10/15 - Historical planetary probes

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0915  Mission Schedules
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 177
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195907 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spaceschedule
Lastmodified Date 930401 143923 

SPACE SHUTTLE ANSWERS LAUNCH SCHEDULES TV COVERAGE

    SHUTTLE LAUNCHINGS AND LANDINGS SCHEDULES AND HOW TO SEE THEM

    Shuttle operations are discussed in the Usenet group scispaceshuttle
    and Ken Hollis gandalfproelectricctscom posts a compressed version
    of the shuttle manifest launch dates and other information
    periodically there The manifest is also available from the Ames SPACE
    archive in SPACEFAQmanifest The portion of his manifest formerly
    included in this FAQ has been removed please refer to his posting or
    the archived copy For the most up to date information on upcoming
    missions call 407 867INFO 8674636 at Kennedy Space Center

    Official NASA shuttle status reports are posted to scispacenews
    frequently


    WHY DOES THE SHUTTLE ROLL JUST AFTER LIFTOFF

    The following answer and translation are provided by Ken Jenks
    kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov

    The Ascent Guidance and Flight Control Training Manual ASC GC 2102
    says

	During the vertical rise phase the launch pad attitude is
	commanded until an Iloaded Vrel sufficient to assure launch tower
	clearance is achieved Then the tilt maneuver roll program
	orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a
	negative qalpha which in turn alleviates structural loading Other
	advantages with this attitude are performance gain decreased abort
	maneuver complexity improved Sband look angles and crew view of
	the horizon The tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining
	downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff MECO target
	in second stage

    This really is a good answer but its couched in NASA jargon Ill try
    to interpret

    1	We wait until the Shuttle clears the tower before rolling

    2	Then we roll the Shuttle around so that the angle of attack
	between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere the
	relative wind and the chord of the wings the imaginary line
	between the leading edge and the trailing edge is a slightly
	negative angle a negative qalpha	This causes a little bit of
	downward force toward the belly of the Orbiter or the Z
	direction and this force alleviates structural loading
	We have to be careful about those wings  theyre about the
	most delicate part of the vehicle

    3	The new attitude after the roll also allows us to carry more
	mass to orbit or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass or
	to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be
	the case if we didnt roll performance gain

    4	The new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated
	flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort
	maneuvers the Return To Launch Site decreased abort maneuver
	complexity

    5	The new attitude improves the ability for groundbased radio
	antennae to have a good lineofsight signal with the Sband radio
	antennae on the Orbiter improved Sband look angles

    6	The new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon which is a
	helpful but not mandatory part of piloting any flying machine

    7	The new attitude orients the Shuttle so that the body is
	more nearly parallel with the ground and the nose to the east
	usually  This allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity
	in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit  Remember
	velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction
	The Shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its
	velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit

    This all begs the question Why isnt the launch pad oriented to give
    this nice attitude to begin with  Why does the Shuttle need to roll to
    achieve that attitude  The answer is that the pads were leftovers
    from the Apollo days  The Shuttle straddles two flame trenches  one
    for the Solid Rocket Motor exhaust one for the Space Shuttle Main
    Engine exhaust  You can see the effects of this on any daytime
    launch  The SRM exhaust is dirty gray garbage and the SSME exhaust is
    fluffy white steam  Watch for the difference between the top
    [Orbiter side] and the bottom [External Tank side] of the stack The
    access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented
    basically the same way they were for the Saturn Vs  A side note the
    Saturn Vs also had a roll program  Dont ask me why  Im a Shuttle
    guy

    I checked with a buddy in Ascent Dynamics	He added that the roll
    maneuver is really a maneuver in all three axes roll pitch and yaw
    The roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons
    stated  The pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping
    the angle of attack qalpha within a tight tolerance  The yaw
    component is used to determine the orbital inclination  The total
    maneuver is really expressed as a quaternion a gradlevelmath
    concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one fourelement
    array


    HOW TO RECEIVE THE NASA TV CHANNEL NASA SELECT

    NASA SELECT is broadcast by satellite If you have access to a satellite
    dish you can find SELECT on Satcom F2R Transponder 13 CBand 72
    degrees West Longitude Audio 68 Frequency 3960 MHz F2R is stationed
    over the Atlantic and is increasingly difficult to receive from
    California and points west During events of special interest eg
    shuttle missions SELECT is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite
    for these viewers

    If you cant get a satellite feed some cable operators carry SELECT
    Its worth asking if yours doesnt

    The SELECT schedule is found in the NASA Headline News which is
    frequently posted to scispacenews Generally it carries press
    conferences briefings by NASA officials and live coverage of shuttle
    missions and planetary encounters SELECT has recently begun carrying
    much more secondary material associated with SPACELINK when missions
    are not being covered


    AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES FOR SHUTTLE MISSIONS

    The following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio

	W6FXN   Los Angeles
	K6MF    Ames Research Center Mountain View California
	WA3NAN  Goddard Space Flight Center GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
	W5RRR   Johnson Space Center JSC Houston Texas
	W6VIO   Jet Propulsion Laboratory JPL Pasadena California
	W1AW Voice Bulletins

	Station    VHF	   10m	   15m	   20m	  40m	 80m
		         	
	W6FXN	 14546
	K6MF	 145585			 7165	3840
	WA3NAN	 14745  28650  21395  14295  7185	3860
	W5RRR	 14664  28400  21350  14280  7227	3850
	W6VIO	 22404		 21340  14270
	W6VIO	 22404		 21280  14282  7165	3840
	W1AW		 28590  21390  14290  7290	3990

    W5RRR transmits mission audio on 14664 a special event station on the
    other frequencies supplying Keplerian Elements and mission information

    W1AW also transmits on 147555 18160 No mission audio but they
    transmit voice bulletins at 0245 and 0545 UTC

    Frequencies in the 1020m bands require USB and frequencies in the 40
    and 80m bands LSB Use FM for the VHF frequencies

    [This item was most recently updated courtesy of Gary Morris
    gtelesoftcom KK6YB N5QWC]


    SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER FUEL COMPOSITION

    Reference Shuttle Flight Operations Manual Volume 8B  Solid Rocket
    Booster Systems NASA Document JSC12770

    Propellant Composition percent

    Ammonium perchlorate oxidizer			696
    Aluminum						16
    Iron Oxide burn rate catalyst			04
    Polybutadieneacrilic acidacrylonitrile a rubber 1204
    Epoxy curing agent					196

    End reference

    Comment The aluminum rubber and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer

NEXT FAQ 1015  Historical planetary probes

preprocess doc  From: suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
In-Reply-To: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com's message of 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST
Lines: 17
Reply-To: suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
	<1993Apr3.183519.14721@proxima.alt.za>
	<1993Apr5.112430.825@batman.bmd.trw.com>

>>>>> On 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com said:

:> God is eternal.    [A = B]
:> Jesus is God.      [C = A]
:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal.  [C = B]

:> This works both logically and mathematically.  God is of the set of
:> things which are eternal.  Jesus is a subset of God.   Therefore
:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.

Everything isn't always so logical....

Mercedes is a car.
That girl is Mercedes.
Therefore, that girl is a car?

-Heikki

after prepro  From suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
InReplyTo jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcoms message of 5 Apr 93 112430 MST
Lines 17
ReplyTo suopankistektoulufi
Organization Unixverstas Olutensin Finlandia
	1993Apr318351914721proximaaltza
	1993Apr5112430825batmanbmdtrwcom

 On 5 Apr 93 112430 MST jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom said

 God is eternal    [A  B]
 Jesus is God      [C  A]
 Therefore Jesus is eternal  [C  B]

 This works both logically and mathematically  God is of the set of
 things which are eternal  Jesus is a subset of God   Therefore
 Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal

Everything isnt always so logical

Mercedes is a car
That girl is Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car

Heikki

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses (good grief!)
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 14

In article <66018@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:

>The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
>true position of reason in this group.

	I agree, we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of God.

--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses good grief
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 14

In article 66018mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes

The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group

	I agree we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of God




       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 9

Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?


/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you        |   
| think I said.  But I am not sure that you realize that        |
| what I said is not what I meant."                             |

after prepro  From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject ProtonCentaur
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 9

Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I know you believe you understand what it is that you           
 think I said  But I am not sure that you realize that        
 what I said is not what I meant                             

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr22.204742.10671
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 62

In <C5tvL2.1In@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au 
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:

>> hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the

>This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.

>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.

>If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
>terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
>selling every bit that promises to make money? 

Well, I guess I'm left wondering just who all the 'light fascists'
think *they* are.  Yes, I understand the issues.  I don't even
particularly care for the idea.  But am I the only one that finds the
sort of overreaction above just a *little* questionable?  You must
find things like the Moon *really* obnoxious in their pollution.

A few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves:

	1) How long is this thing supposed to stay up?  Sounds like it
would have a *huge* drag area, not a lot of mass, and be in a fairly
low orbit.

	2) Just what orbital parameters are we talking about here?
What real impact are we talking about, really?  How many optical
astronomers are *really* going to be impacted?

	3) Which is more important; adding a few extra days of
'seeing' for (very few) optical astronomers or getting the data the
sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large
inflatables (and the potential there for an inflatable space station)?
The choice would seem to be one or the other, since the advertising is
being used to help fund this thing.

	4) If your answer to 3) above was "the astronomers", then feel
free to come up with some other way to fund the (to my mind) more
important research data that would be gained by this WITHOUT SPENDING
ANY MORE OF MY MONEY TO DO IT.  In other words, put up or shut up.

>I guess we really
>deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
>guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.

Probably so.  I'm just not sure we agree about who the 'stupid' are. 

>	Another depressed planetary citizen,
>	hoover

Yeah, me too.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
ArticleID mksol1993Apr2220474210671
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 62

In  hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp writes

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau 
Enzo Liguori writes

 hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the

This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore

If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money 

Well I guess Im left wondering just who all the light fascists
think they are  Yes I understand the issues  I dont even
particularly care for the idea  But am I the only one that finds the
sort of overreaction above just a little questionable  You must
find things like the Moon really obnoxious in their pollution

A few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves

	1 How long is this thing supposed to stay up  Sounds like it
would have a huge drag area not a lot of mass and be in a fairly
low orbit

	2 Just what orbital parameters are we talking about here
What real impact are we talking about really  How many optical
astronomers are really going to be impacted

	3 Which is more important adding a few extra days of
seeing for very few optical astronomers or getting the data the
sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large
inflatables and the potential there for an inflatable space station
The choice would seem to be one or the other since the advertising is
being used to help fund this thing

	4 If your answer to 3 above was the astronomers then feel
free to come up with some other way to fund the to my mind more
important research data that would be gained by this WITHOUT SPENDING
ANY MORE OF MY MONEY TO DO IT  In other words put up or shut up

I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers

Probably so  Im just not sure we agree about who the stupid are 

	Another depressed planetary citizen
	hoover

Yeah me too

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, California
Lines: 19

In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Joe Wetstein

There is a wonderful book by Jean Meeus called
"Astronomical Algorithms," (1991) which I am fairly sure
contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times.


Dan Asimov
Mail Stop T045-1
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

asimov@nas.nasa.gov
(415) 604-4799

after prepro  From asimovwk223nasnasagov Daniel A Asimov
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization NAS NASA Ames Research Center Moffett Field California
Lines 19

In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes

Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

Joe Wetstein

There is a wonderful book by Jean Meeus called
Astronomical Algorithms 1991 which I am fairly sure
contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times


Dan Asimov
Mail Stop T0451
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field CA 940351000

asimovnasnasagov
415 6044799

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 93
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qlettINN8oi@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >>>Explain to me
|> >>>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
|> >>For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
|> >
|> >Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
|> >would be nothing voluntary about it.
|> 
|> See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
|> if it is "voluntary."  Why do you think this?

If you force me to do something, am I morally responsible for it?

|> 
|> And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.

Well, make up your mind.    Is it to be "instinctive not to murder"
or not?

|> 
|> >>So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
|> >>beings mimics theirs?
|> >
|> >You are starting to get the point.  Mimicry is not necessarily the 
|> >same as the action being imitated.  A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly" 
|> >isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.
|> 
|> You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
|> Let's try this:  is it "good" that animals of the same species
|> don't kill each other.  Or, do you think this is right? 

It's not even correct.    Animals of the same species do kill
one another.

|> 
|> Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
|> is either right nor wrong?

Sigh.   I wonder how many times we have been round this loop.

I think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance.
I am quite prepared to believe that higher animals, such as
primates, have the beginnings of a moral sense, since they seem
to exhibit self-awareness.

|> 
|> 
|> >>Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but 
|> >>they don't.
|> >
|> >They do.  I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
|> >this, but you seem to have a very short memory.
|> 
|> Those weren't arbitrary killings.  They were slayings related to some 
|> sort of mating ritual or whatnot.

So what?     Are you trying to say that some killing in animals
has a moral significance and some does not?   Is this your
natural morality>


|> 
|> >>Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
|> >>most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
|> >
|> >I'm saying:
|> >	"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not 
|> >	just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
|> >
|> >It's right there in the posting you are replying to.
|> 
|> Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions.  What
|> do you mean by "consider?"  Can a small child be moral?  How about
|> a gorilla?  A dolphin?  A platypus?  Where is the line drawn?  Does
|> the being need to be self aware?

Are you blind?   What do you think that this sentence means?

	"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not 
	just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."

What would that imply?

|> 
|> What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
|> the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other?  Don't
|> you find the fact that they don't at all significant?

I find the fact that they do to be significant. 

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 Explain to me
 how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
 For example if it were instinctive not to murder
 
 Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
 would be nothing voluntary about it
 
 See there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant
 if it is voluntary  Why do you think this

If you force me to do something am I morally responsible for it

 
 And anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts

Well make up your mind    Is it to be instinctive not to murder
or not

 
 So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
 beings mimics theirs
 
 You are starting to get the point  Mimicry is not necessarily the 
 same as the action being imitated  A Parrot saying Pretty Polly 
 isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly
 
 You are attaching too many things to the term moral I think
 Lets try this  is it good that animals of the same species
 dont kill each other  Or do you think this is right 

Its not even correct    Animals of the same species do kill
one another

 
 Or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do
 is either right nor wrong

Sigh   I wonder how many times we have been round this loop

I think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance
I am quite prepared to believe that higher animals such as
primates have the beginnings of a moral sense since they seem
to exhibit selfawareness

 
 
 Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but 
 they dont
 
 They do  I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
 this but you seem to have a very short memory
 
 Those werent arbitrary killings  They were slayings related to some 
 sort of mating ritual or whatnot

So what     Are you trying to say that some killing in animals
has a moral significance and some does not   Is this your
natural morality


 
 Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
 most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
 
 Im saying
 	There must be the possibility that the organism  its not 
 	just people we are talking about  can consider alternatives
 
 Its right there in the posting you are replying to
 
 Yes it was but I still dont understand your distinctions  What
 do you mean by consider  Can a small child be moral  How about
 a gorilla  A dolphin  A platypus  Where is the line drawn  Does
 the being need to be self aware

Are you blind   What do you think that this sentence means

	There must be the possibility that the organism  its not 
	just people we are talking about  can consider alternatives

What would that imply

 
 What do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
 the same species from arbitrarily killing each other  Dont
 you find the fact that they dont at all significant

I find the fact that they do to be significant 

jon

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>>Look, I'm not the one that made those Nazi comparisons.  Other people
>>compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany.  They
>>have said that it started out with little things (but no one really knew
>>about any of these "little" things, strangely enough) and grew to bigger
>>things.  They said that the motto is but one of the little things 
>You just contradicted yourself.  The motto is one of those little things that
>nobody has bothered mentiopning to you, huh?

The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
weren't going to waste their time repeating them.  Sounds to me like no one
knew, either.  I looked in some books, but to no avail.

>>that is
>>going to pave the way for other "intrusions."  Of course, if the motto
>>hasn't caused problems in its 40 year history, then I doubt it is going to...
>It *has* caused problems.  You just ignore every instance when someone
>describes one to you.

It has *caused* problems?  Again, no one has shown that things were better
before the motto, or that they'd likely be better after.  I don't think
the motto initiates any sort of harassment.  Harassment will occur whether
or not the motto is present.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Look Im not the one that made those Nazi comparisons  Other people
compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany  They
have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew
about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger
things  They said that the motto is but one of the little things 
You just contradicted yourself  The motto is one of those little things that
nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh

The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly  People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
werent going to waste their time repeating them  Sounds to me like no one
knew either  I looked in some books but to no avail

that is
going to pave the way for other intrusions  Of course if the motto
hasnt caused problems in its 40 year history then I doubt it is going to
It has caused problems  You just ignore every instance when someone
describes one to you

It has caused problems  Again no one has shown that things were better
before the motto or that theyd likely be better after  I dont think
the motto initiates any sort of harassment  Harassment will occur whether
or not the motto is present

keith

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1993Apr17.225127.25062@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>You exagerate to the point of libel.  I gave only unpopular reasons
>deliberately.  Or do you think that we should have let Iraq absorb Kuwait?
>I could make the tired old 1939 Poland comparison, but I think you've
>heard it.  But the principle aplies, never play a Chamberlain and
>roll over to another country being invaded.  That only invites further 
>invasions.

	Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist?
	Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology,
etc.

	We made Suddam Hussein.

	What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind.


---  

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling "Traditional Family Values."





after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1993Apr1722512725062daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
You exagerate to the point of libel  I gave only unpopular reasons
deliberately  Or do you think that we should have let Iraq absorb Kuwait
I could make the tired old 1939 Poland comparison but I think youve
heard it  But the principle aplies never play a Chamberlain and
roll over to another country being invaded  That only invites further 
invasions

	Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist
	Provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology
etc

	We made Suddam Hussein

	What did Bush call him Oh yes an ally and a freind


  

   Id Cheat on Hillary Too

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling Traditional Family Values





preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: po.kmr4.1447.734101641
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1993Apr6.041343.24997@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>The point has been raised and has been answered.  Roger and I have
>clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
>specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
>the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").

	Please define "morally straight". 

	
	
	And, don't even try saying that "straight", as it is used here, 
implies only hetersexual behavior. [ eg: "straight" as in the slang word 
opposite to "gay" ]


	This is alot like "family values". Everyone is talking about them, 
but misteriously, no one knows what they are.
---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world. 

after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID pokmr41447734101641
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1993Apr604134324997cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes

The point has been raised and has been answered  Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight

	Please define morally straight 

	
	
	And dont even try saying that straight as it is used here 
implies only hetersexual behavior [ eg straight as in the slang word 
opposite to gay ]


	This is alot like family values Everyone is talking about them 
but misteriously no one knows what they are


        One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say Mom because of the love of their mom  It makes for more 
        virile men

        Bobby Mozumder   snm6394ultbiscritedu 
        April 4 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world 

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang) writes:

>I was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be
>spending the rest of our lives arguing what a "Christian" really
>believes.

I don't think we need to argue about this.

>KS>Do you think that the motto points out that this country is proud
>KS>of its freedom of religion, and that this is something that
>KS>distinguishes us from many other countries?
>MW>No.
>KS>Well, your opinion is not shared by most people, I gather.
>Perhaps not, but that is because those seeking to make government
>recognize Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not
>think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share
>their beliefs.

Yes, but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize
Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think
the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their
beliefs.

And actually, I think that the government already does recognize that
Christianity is the dominant religion in this country.  I mean, it is.
Don't you realize/recognize this?

This isn't to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of
Christianity, just that most people do.

>Like I've said before I personally don't think the motto is a major
>concern.

If you agree with me, then what are we discussing?

>KS>Since most people don't seem to associate Christmas with Jesus much
>KS>anymore, I don't see what the problem is.
>Can you prove your assertion that most people in the U.S. don't
>associate Christmas with Jesus anymore?

No, but I hear quite a bit about Christmas, and little if anything about
Jesus.  Wouldn't this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really
associated to a high degree with him?  Or are you saying that the
association with Jesus is on a personal level, and that everyone thinks
about it but just never talks about it?

That is, can *you* prove that most people *do* associate Christmas
most importantly with Jesus?

>Anyways, the point again is that there are people who do associate
>Christmas with Jesus. It doesn't matter if these people are a majority
>or not.

I think the numbers *do* matter.  It takes a majority, or at least a
majority of those in power, to discriminate.  Doesn't it?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 57
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

mmwangadobecom Michael Wang writes

I was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be
spending the rest of our lives arguing what a Christian really
believes

I dont think we need to argue about this

KSDo you think that the motto points out that this country is proud
KSof its freedom of religion and that this is something that
KSdistinguishes us from many other countries
MWNo
KSWell your opinion is not shared by most people I gather
Perhaps not but that is because those seeking to make government
recognize Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not
think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share
their beliefs

Yes but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize
Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think
the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their
beliefs

And actually I think that the government already does recognize that
Christianity is the dominant religion in this country  I mean it is
Dont you realizerecognize this

This isnt to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of
Christianity just that most people do

Like Ive said before I personally dont think the motto is a major
concern

If you agree with me then what are we discussing

KSSince most people dont seem to associate Christmas with Jesus much
KSanymore I dont see what the problem is
Can you prove your assertion that most people in the US dont
associate Christmas with Jesus anymore

No but I hear quite a bit about Christmas and little if anything about
Jesus  Wouldnt this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really
associated to a high degree with him  Or are you saying that the
association with Jesus is on a personal level and that everyone thinks
about it but just never talks about it

That is can you prove that most people do associate Christmas
most importantly with Jesus

Anyways the point again is that there are people who do associate
Christmas with Jesus It doesnt matter if these people are a majority
or not

I think the numbers do matter  It takes a majority or at least a
majority of those in power to discriminate  Doesnt it

keith

preprocess doc  From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 94

In article <1993Apr15.050750.3893@nuscc.nus.sg>, cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> : In article <1q338l$cva@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, gsu0033@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Eric
> : Molas) wrote:
> : > Christianity is an infectious cult.  The reasons it flourishes are 
> : > because 1) it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life
> : > a safety blanked to hide behind.  "Oh wow..all i have to do is 
> : > follow this christian moral standard and I get eternal happiness."
> : 
> : I agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on
> : 'haha, you won't laugh in hell' mentalities makes certain religions
> : very attractive for certain personalities.
> 
> I agree with both of u, but I would like to make a small point.  Xtianity, &
> other dogmatic religions, not only attract people without hope etc but
> also attract "average" people as well.  I believe that Xtainity, thru
> its escapist doctrines & absolutist attitudes, provides great psychological 
> shelter from day-to-day frustrations, unhappiness & fear of uncertainty 
> & unknown etc.
>

This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
immigrants for example.  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary.  Seems a little weak, but as long as it
doesn't hurt anybody...
 
> The Buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions:
> 
>    "When driven by fear, man worships sacred mountains, sacred stones, 
> 	and sacred trees." 
> 
> However, the Buddha also said,
> 
> 	"If somebody finds peace in any religion, let him be".
> 
> 

These are good quotes, and I agree with both of them, but let's make sure to
alter the scond one so that includes something like "...let him be, as long as
he is not preventing others from finding their peace." or something like that. 
(Of course, I suppose, if someone were REALLY "at peace", there would be no
need for inflicting evangelism)


> Personally, I feel that since religion have such a poweful
> psychological effect, we should let theists be.  But the problem is that
> religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole
> (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science
> & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc.  Need I say more?).
> I really don't know what we can do about them.  Any comments?
> 
Well, it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives.  Their
popularity seems to come and go.  I remember when I first entered High School,
I was an atheist (always had been) and so were about 7 of my friends.  At this
time, 5 of those 7 have converted, always to Christianity (they were all also
immigrants from Taiwan, or sons of immigrants, hence my earlier gross
generalization).  Christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it
ever has before (since I've been noticing).  Maybe it is just my perceptions
that are chagning.  Who knows?
I for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them, so long as we
have some set of abstract rights/agreements on how we should treat each other:
I have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions.  For all the well-put
arguments on this usenet, it never does any good.  Argumentation does not
really seem to apply to Christians (or even some atheists)- it must simply be a
step the person takes naturally, almost, "instinctively"...


best regards,

********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper		"Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
*				   who thought themselves good simply because  *
* acooper@macalstr.edu				they had no claws."	       *
********************************************************************************
>
--
> 
> The UnEnlightened One
> ------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
>                   | "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be 
> Tan Chade Meng    | expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it
> Singapore         | transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology;
> cmtan@iss.nus.sg  | it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is
>                   | based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience
>                   | of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful
>                   | unity"     --  Einstein
> ------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

after prepro  From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Macalester College
Lines 94

In article 1993Apr150507503893nusccnussg cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng  dan writes
 sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
  In article 1q338lcvauxaecnbguedu gsu0033uxaecnbguedu Eric
  Molas wrote
   Christianity is an infectious cult  The reasons it flourishes are 
   because 1 it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life
   a safety blanked to hide behind  Oh wowall i have to do is 
   follow this christian moral standard and I get eternal happiness
  
  I agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on
  haha you wont laugh in hell mentalities makes certain religions
  very attractive for certain personalities
 
 I agree with both of u but I would like to make a small point  Xtianity 
 other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but
 also attract average people as well  I believe that Xtainity thru
 its escapist doctrines  absolutist attitudes provides great psychological 
 shelter from daytoday frustrations unhappiness  fear of uncertainty 
  unknown etc


This is a good point but I think average people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their
social life or to get more involved with American culture if they are kids of
immigrants for example  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong
TOO new or TOO out of the ordinary  Seems a little weak but as long as it
doesnt hurt anybody
 
 The Buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions
 
    When driven by fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones 
 	and sacred trees 
 
 However the Buddha also said
 
 	If somebody finds peace in any religion let him be
 
 

These are good quotes and I agree with both of them but lets make sure to
alter the scond one so that includes something like let him be as long as
he is not preventing others from finding their peace or something like that 
Of course I suppose if someone were REALLY at peace there would be no
need for inflicting evangelism


 Personally I feel that since religion have such a poweful
 psychological effect we should let theists be  But the problem is that
 religions cause enormous harm to nonbelievers and to humanity as a whole
 holy wars inquisitions interreligious hatred impedence of science
  intellectual progress usthem attitudes etc etc  Need I say more
 I really dont know what we can do about them  Any comments
 
Well it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives  Their
popularity seems to come and go  I remember when I first entered High School
I was an atheist always had been and so were about 7 of my friends  At this
time 5 of those 7 have converted always to Christianity they were all also
immigrants from Taiwan or sons of immigrants hence my earlier gross
generalization  Christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it
ever has before since Ive been noticing  Maybe it is just my perceptions
that are chagning  Who knows
I for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them so long as we
have some set of abstract rightsagreements on how we should treat each other
I have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions  For all the wellput
arguments on this usenet it never does any good  Argumentation does not
really seem to apply to Christians or even some atheists it must simply be a
step the person takes naturally almost instinctively


best regards


 Adam John Cooper		Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings 
				   who thought themselves good simply because  
 acoopermacalstredu				they had no claws	       



 
 The UnEnlightened One
 
                    Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be 
 Tan Chade Meng     expected in a cosmic religion for the future it
 Singapore          transcends a personal God avoids dogmas and theology
 cmtanissnussg   it covers both the natural  spiritual and it is
                    based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience
                    of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful
                    unity       Einstein
 
 
 
 

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 57

In article <1993Apr15.215833.15970@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:


>> What about the Twelve Imams, who he considered incapable of error
>> or sin? Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans. This is
>> heresy for the very reasons I gave above. 


>I would be happy to discuss the  issue of the 12 Imams with you, although
>my preference would be to move the discussion to another
>newsgroup.  I feel a philosophy or religion group would be more 
>appropriate. 


I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as I've articulated it above_ (which may not be
the true view of Khomeini) is from the basic principles of Islam. 
So that the non-muslim readers of this group will see how far from 
the simple basics of Islam such views are on the face of them. And 
if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of Islam, how 
subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in Islam while 
they are explicitly proscribed by the Qur'an.


>The topic is deeply embedded in the world view of Islam and the
>esoteric teachings of the Prophet (S.A.). Heresy does not enter
>into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
>religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical
>substance of man's being and nature.


In my opinion considering any human being as having a substance
or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human
being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by Islam. 


>From your posts, you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought. You
>should seek to know Shi'ite thought through knowledgeable 
>Shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the
>charge of heresy is levelled.


Absolutely! I would be interested in discussing this privately and
I am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of
error-free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with
the teachings of the Qur'an. However, _prima facie_ such attemptsa
are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery, explicitly
proscribed by the Qur'an.


>As salaam a-laikum

Alaikum Wassalam


Gregg


after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 57

In article 1993Apr1521583315970bnrca Rashid writes


 What about the Twelve Imams who he considered incapable of error
 or sin Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans This is
 heresy for the very reasons I gave above 


I would be happy to discuss the  issue of the 12 Imams with you although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup  I feel a philosophy or religion group would be more 
appropriate 


I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as Ive articulated it above_ which may not be
the true view of Khomeini is from the basic principles of Islam 
So that the nonmuslim readers of this group will see how far from 
the simple basics of Islam such views are on the face of them And 
if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of Islam how 
subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in Islam while 
they are explicitly proscribed by the Quran


The topic is deeply embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet SA Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical
substance of mans being and nature


In my opinion considering any human being as having a substance
or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human
being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by Islam 


From your posts you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought You
should seek to know Shiite thought through knowledgeable 
Shiite authors as well  at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled


Absolutely I would be interested in discussing this privately and
I am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of
errorfree and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with
the teachings of the Quran However _prima facie_ such attemptsa
are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery explicitly
proscribed by the Quran


As salaam alaikum

Alaikum Wassalam


Gregg


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Bill Conner:
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 6


Could you explain what any of this pertains to? Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice? And why are you using my
name, do you think this relates to anything I've said and if so, what.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Bill Conner
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 6


Could you explain what any of this pertains to Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice And why are you using my
name do you think this relates to anything Ive said and if so what

Bill

preprocess doc   cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!bdunn
Subject: Re: The wrong and the right.
From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Lines: 25

In article <93090.141001E62763@TRMETU.BITNET> <E62763@TRMETU.BITNET> writes:
>Hi.I'm a Turkish guy who had tried atheism,satenism and buddism at some instant
>s of hislife.Finally I decided on Islambecause of many facts which I intend to
> write here.From my point of view,you atheists are people who has dropped to a
>deep,dark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the well.But
> if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skies.You'dsee t
>he truth but you close your eyes.Allah is the only GOD and Mohammed is his mess
> ager.now,let's generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamics.W
>hat's your point of view to the problem of the ''FIRST KISS''?That is,the first
> spark which was generated for the formation of the universe.Has it formed by i
>tself?You are bothering yourselves with the Big Bang but where is the first spa
>rk?Please think a bit.Think and return to the only reality of the universe:ISLA
>M|

Uh oh.  This looks a bit too much like Bobby's "Atheism Is False" stuff.  Are
we really going to have to go through this again?  Maybe the universe is
cyclical!  :)  :(







--Brendan Dunn

after prepro   csutexaseduuunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedubdunn
Subject Re The wrong and the right
From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Lines 25

In article 93090141001E62763TRMETUBITNET  writes
HiIm a Turkish guy who had tried atheismsatenism and buddism at some instant
s of hislifeFinally I decided on Islambecause of many facts which I intend to
 write hereFrom my point of viewyou atheists are people who has dropped to a
deepdark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the wellBut
 if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skiesYoudsee t
he truth but you close your eyesAllah is the only GOD and Mohammed is his mess
 agernowlets generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamicsW
hats your point of view to the problem of the FIRST KISSThat isthe first
 spark which was generated for the formation of the universeHas it formed by i
tselfYou are bothering yourselves with the Big Bang but where is the first spa
rkPlease think a bitThink and return to the only reality of the universeISLA
M

Uh oh  This looks a bit too much like Bobbys Atheism Is False stuff  Are
we really going to have to go through this again  Maybe the universe is
cyclical    







Brendan Dunn

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Distribution: na
Lines: 19

In article <C5rHoC.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:


>I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in 
>connection with their proposal for an early manned landing.  Sorry I don't 
>rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. 
>Anyone else know anything on this angle?

If by that you mean anything on the GD approach, there was an article on
it in a recent Avation Week. I don't remember the exact date but it was
recent.

 Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Distribution na
Lines 19

In article  jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes


I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in 
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing  Sorry I dont 
rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable 
Anyone else know anything on this angle

If by that you mean anything on the GD approach there was an article on
it in a recent Avation Week I dont remember the exact date but it was
recent

 Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 75
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell

In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu> bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

It appears that Walla Walla College will fill the same role in alt.atheist
that Allegheny College fills in alt.fan.dan-quayle.

>	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
>makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
>lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
>writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
>in the process he became a Christian himself.

Converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their
pre-xtian past, frequently falsely.  Anyone who embarks on an
effort to "destroy" xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania, a
defect which is not cured by religious conversion.

>	The arguements he uses I am summing up.  The book is about whether 
>Jesus was God or not.  I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a 
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
>others have to say.  

Different perspective?  DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE??  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

>	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

(sigh!)  Perhaps Big J was just mistaken about some of his claims.
Perhaps he was normally insightful, but had a few off days.  Perhaps
many (most?) of the statements attributed to Jesus were not made by
him, but were put into his mouth by later authors.  Other possibilities
abound.  Surely, someone seriously examining this question could
come up with a decent list of possible alternatives, unless the task
is not serious examination of the question (much less "destroying"
xtianity) but rather religious salesmanship.

>	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
>die for a lie?

How many Germans died for Nazism?  How many Russians died in the name
of the proletarian dictatorship?  How many Americans died to make the
world safe for "democracy".  What a silly question!

>Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
>someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
>heal people.  

Is everyone who performs a healing = God?

>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.

It's probably hard to "draw" an entire nation to you unless you 
are crazy.

>Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
>this right away.
>	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
>real thing.  

Anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves
to be a xtian.

>	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
>and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
>write I will use it.

Don't bother.  Many of the "prophecies" were "fulfilled" only in the
eyes of xtian apologists, who distort the meaning of Isaiah and
other OT books.




after prepro  From siefermesteinuwashingtonedu Eric Sieferman
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 75
NNTPPostingHost steinuwashingtonedu
Keywords Dan Bissell

In article  bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

It appears that Walla Walla College will fill the same role in altatheist
that Allegheny College fills in altfandanquayle

	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
in the process he became a Christian himself

Converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their
prextian past frequently falsely  Anyone who embarks on an
effort to destroy xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania a
defect which is not cured by religious conversion

	The arguements he uses I am summing up  The book is about whether 
Jesus was God or not  I know many of you dont believe but listen to a 
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
others have to say  

Different perspective  DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was

sigh  Perhaps Big J was just mistaken about some of his claims
Perhaps he was normally insightful but had a few off days  Perhaps
many most of the statements attributed to Jesus were not made by
him but were put into his mouth by later authors  Other possibilities
abound  Surely someone seriously examining this question could
come up with a decent list of possible alternatives unless the task
is not serious examination of the question much less destroying
xtianity but rather religious salesmanship

	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie

How many Germans died for Nazism  How many Russians died in the name
of the proletarian dictatorship  How many Americans died to make the
world safe for democracy  What a silly question

Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
heal people  

Is everyone who performs a healing  God

	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy

Its probably hard to draw an entire nation to you unless you 
are crazy

Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away
	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  

Anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves
to be a xtian

	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 
and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
write I will use it

Dont bother  Many of the prophecies were fulfilled only in the
eyes of xtian apologists who distort the meaning of Isaiah and
other OT books




preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 28

In article <114127@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
 
>>When they are victimized they are Muslims. When they victimize others
>>they are not True Muslims (tm) or no Muslims at all.
>
>>Quite annoying.
>
>I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic
>principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
>that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
>so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
>be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
>to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
>Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
>than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
>
 
It was no criticism of Islam for a change, it was a criticism of the
arguments used. Namely, whenever people you identify as Muslims are
the victims of the attacks of others, they are used an argument for
the bad situation of Muslims. But whenever deeds by Muslim that victimize
others are named, they do not count as an argument because what these
people did was not done as a true Muslims. No mention is made how Muslims
are the cause of a bad situation of another party.
 
Double standards.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 28

In article 114127buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
When they are victimized they are Muslims When they victimize others
they are not True Muslims tm or no Muslims at all

Quite annoying

I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic
principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts

 
It was no criticism of Islam for a change it was a criticism of the
arguments used Namely whenever people you identify as Muslims are
the victims of the attacks of others they are used an argument for
the bad situation of Muslims But whenever deeds by Muslim that victimize
others are named they do not count as an argument because what these
people did was not done as a true Muslims No mention is made how Muslims
are the cause of a bad situation of another party
 
Double standards
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 14
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi

In <1993Apr10.191100.16094@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>Insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional.  Under
>atheism, anything can happen, good or bad, including genocide.

And you know why this is? Because you've conveniently _defined_ a theist as
someone who can do no wrong, and you've _defined_ people who do wrong as
atheists. The above statement is circular (not to mention bigoting), and,
as such, has no value.
-- 
Sami Aario         |  "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi  |   one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------'  "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"     DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.

after prepro  From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 14
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi

In 1993Apr1019110016094ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

Insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional  Under
atheism anything can happen good or bad including genocide

And you know why this is Because youve conveniently _defined_ a theist as
someone who can do no wrong and youve _defined_ people who do wrong as
atheists The above statement is circular not to mention bigoting and
as such has no value
 
Sami Aario           Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi     one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
  Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space     DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 66


James Hogan writes:

timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:
>>Jim Hogan quips:

>>... (summary of Jim's stuff)

>>Jim, I'm afraid _you've_ missed the point.

>>>Thus, I think you'll have to admit that  atheists have a lot
>>more up their sleeve than you might have suspected.

>>Nah.  I will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists
>>have up their sleeves.  Whatever I might have suspected is actually quite
>>meager.  If you want I'll send them your address to learn less about your
>>faith.

>Faith?

Yeah, do you expect people to read the FAQ, etc. and actually accept hard
atheism?  No, you need a little leap of faith, Jimmy.  Your logic runs out
of steam!

>>>Fine, but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock
>>>the idea of a God?  ....

>>>I hope you understand now.

>>Yes, Jim.  I do understand now.  Thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm
>>that would have dispelled any sympathies I would have had for your faith.

>Bake,

>Real glad you detected the sarcasm angle, but am really bummin' that
>I won't be getting any of your sympathy.  Still, if your inclined
>to have sympathy for somebody's *faith*, you might try one of the
>religion newsgroups.

>Just be careful over there, though. (make believe I'm
>whispering in your ear here)  They're all delusional!

Jim,

Sorry I can't pity you, Jim.  And I'm sorry that you have these feelings of
denial about the faith you need to get by.  Oh well, just pretend that it will
all end happily ever after anyway.  Maybe if you start a new newsgroup,
alt.atheist.hard, you won't be bummin' so much?

>Good job, Jim.
>.

>Bye, Bake.


>>[more slim-Jim (tm) deleted]

>Bye, Bake!
>Bye, Bye!

Bye-Bye, Big Jim.  Don't forget your Flintstone's Chewables!  :) 
--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 66


James Hogan writes

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
Jim Hogan quips

 summary of Jims stuff

Jim Im afraid _youve_ missed the point

Thus I think youll have to admit that  atheists have a lot
more up their sleeve than you might have suspected

Nah  I will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists
have up their sleeves  Whatever I might have suspected is actually quite
meager  If you want Ill send them your address to learn less about your
faith

Faith

Yeah do you expect people to read the FAQ etc and actually accept hard
atheism  No you need a little leap of faith Jimmy  Your logic runs out
of steam

Fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock
the idea of a God  

I hope you understand now

Yes Jim  I do understand now  Thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm
that would have dispelled any sympathies I would have had for your faith

Bake

Real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but am really bummin that
I wont be getting any of your sympathy  Still if your inclined
to have sympathy for somebodys faith you might try one of the
religion newsgroups

Just be careful over there though make believe Im
whispering in your ear here  Theyre all delusional

Jim

Sorry I cant pity you Jim  And Im sorry that you have these feelings of
denial about the faith you need to get by  Oh well just pretend that it will
all end happily ever after anyway  Maybe if you start a new newsgroup
altatheisthard you wont be bummin so much

Good job Jim


Bye Bake


[more slimJim tm deleted]

Bye Bake
Bye Bye

ByeBye Big Jim  Dont forget your Flintstones Chewables   

Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Lines: 30

Benedikt Rosenau writes:

>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?

If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
it's obviously a risk one takes.

>Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
>is contradictive.

I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization.  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience.  One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).

An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
that the "better" descriptive language is not available.

>And in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish
>that?

This word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you
can show how reliability can be determined.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Yeah Right
Lines 30

Benedikt Rosenau writes

And what about that revelation thing Charley

If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes

Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
is contradictive

Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience  One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable

An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available

And in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish
that

This word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you
can show how reliability can be determined
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: looper@cco.caltech.edu (Mark D. Looper)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: Galileo, JPL

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>Galileo's HGA  is stuck.   

>The HGA was left closed,  because galileo  had a venus flyby.

>If the HGA were pointed att he sun,  near venus,  it would
>cook the foci elements.

>question:  WHy couldn't Galileo's  course manuevers have been
>designed such that the HGA  did not ever do a sun point.?

The HGA isn't all that reflective in the wavelengths that might "cook the
focal elements", nor is its figure good on those scales--the problem is
that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to Venus-level sunlight,
lest like Icarus' wings it melt.  (I think it was glues and such, as well
as electronics, that they were worried about.)  Thus it had to remain
furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun, so that the small
sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded HGA.
(A larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus.)

--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"

after prepro  From looperccocaltechedu Mark D Looper
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost sandmancaltechedu
Keywords Galileo JPL

prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

Galileos HGA  is stuck   

The HGA was left closed  because galileo  had a venus flyby

If the HGA were pointed att he sun  near venus  it would
cook the foci elements

question  WHy couldnt Galileos  course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA  did not ever do a sun point

The HGA isnt all that reflective in the wavelengths that might cook the
focal elements nor is its figure good on those scalesthe problem is
that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to Venuslevel sunlight
lest like Icarus wings it melt  I think it was glues and such as well
as electronics that they were worried about  Thus it had to remain
furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun so that the small
sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded HGA
A larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus

Mark Looper
Hot RoddersAmericas first recyclers

preprocess doc  From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Small Astronaut (was: Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 25

In article <1pfkf5$7ab@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>Only one problem with sending a corp of Small astronauts.
>THey may want to start a galactic empire:-)   Napoleon
>complex you know.  Genghis Khan was a little guy too.  I'd bet
>Julius caesar never broke 5'1".

I think you would lose your money. Julius was actually rather tall
for a Roman. He did go on record as favouring small soldiers though.
Thought they were tougher and had more guts. He was probably right
if you think about it. As for Napoleon remember that the French
avergae was just about 5 feet and that height is relative! Did he
really have a complex?

ObSpace :  We have all seen the burning candle from High School that goes
out and relights. If there is a large hot body placed in space but in an
atmosphere, exactly how does it heat the surroundings? Diffusion only?

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

after prepro  From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re Small Astronaut was Budget Astronaut
Organization Statistics Pure  Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 25

In article 1pfkf57abaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

Only one problem with sending a corp of Small astronauts
THey may want to start a galactic empire   Napoleon
complex you know  Genghis Khan was a little guy too  Id bet
Julius caesar never broke 51

I think you would lose your money Julius was actually rather tall
for a Roman He did go on record as favouring small soldiers though
Thought they were tougher and had more guts He was probably right
if you think about it As for Napoleon remember that the French
avergae was just about 5 feet and that height is relative Did he
really have a complex

ObSpace   We have all seen the burning candle from High School that goes
out and relights If there is a large hot body placed in space but in an
atmosphere exactly how does it heat the surroundings Diffusion only

Joseph Askew

 
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu  Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care  North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale the River murmurs on

preprocess doc  From: n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier)
Subject: Re: What counntries do space surveillance?
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: harder.ccr-p.ida.org
In-reply-to: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com's message of 23 Apr 93 20:17:25 GMT


I can tell you that when AMSAT launched some birds along a Spot satellite
(French), that during installation of some instruments on Spot 2, there
heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners' look on there faces.
Spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit
surveillance.

BMc
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert W. McGwier                  | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org
Center for Communications Research | Interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf
Princeton, N.J. 08520              | Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700, Hightstown

after prepro  From n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier
Subject Re What counntries do space surveillance
Organization IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines 13
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost harderccrpidaorg
Inreplyto thomsonalcpvasaiccoms message of 23 Apr 93 201725 GMT


I can tell you that when AMSAT launched some birds along a Spot satellite
French that during installation of some instruments on Spot 2 there
heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners look on there faces
Spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit
surveillance

BMc


Robert W McGwier                   n4hyccrpidaorg
Center for Communications Research  Interests amateur radio astronomygolf
Princeton NJ 08520               Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700 Hightstown

preprocess doc  From: jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: Caltech:  Pasadena, California, USA
Lines: 12
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>	If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
>one  should be called 'Smiley'.

Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.

-- 
Jeff Foust              [49 days!]	"You're from outer space."
Senior, Planetary Science, Caltech	"No, I'm from Iowa.  I only work in
jafoust@cco.caltech.edu			 outer space."
jeff@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov			-- from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

after prepro  From jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization Caltech  Pasadena California USA
Lines 12
Distribution sci
NNTPPostingHost sandmancaltechedu

In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
	If the  new  Kuiper belt object is  called Karla the next
one  should be called Smiley

Unless Im imaging things always a possibility  1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year is known as Smiley

 
Jeff Foust              [49 days]	Youre from outer space
Senior Planetary Science Caltech	No Im from Iowa  I only work in
jafoustccocaltechedu			 outer space
jeffscn1jplnasagov			 from Star Trek IV The Voyage Home

preprocess doc  From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Area Rule (was Re: Space Research Spin Off)
Article-I.D.: bby.1993Apr6.064720.6920
	<1pnuke$idn@access.digex.net> <SHAFER.93Apr4200752@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov>
	<1ppm7j$ip@access.digex.net> <1993Apr5.133619.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 9
In-Reply-To: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov's message of 5 Apr 93 13:36:19 -0600
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw

Can somebody elaborate on "Area Ruling".  I gather it's something to
do with aerodynamics of trans-sonic planes, and can be summarised as
"Coke bottle good, Coke can bad".  Anyone provide more details,
derivation etc?
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knox's 386 is slick.            Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
   Knox's box is very quick.       Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)

after prepro  From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Area Rule was Re Space Research Spin Off
ArticleID bby1993Apr60647206920
	1pnukeidnaccessdigexnet 
	1ppm7jipaccessdigexnet 1993Apr51336191fnalffnalgov
Organization Burdett Buckeridge  Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 9
InReplyTo higginsfnalffnalgovs message of 5 Apr 93 133619 0600
NntpPostingHost leogw

Can somebody elaborate on Area Ruling  I gather its something to
do with aerodynamics of transsonic planes and can be summarised as
Coke bottle good Coke can bad  Anyone provide more details
derivation etc

Gregory Bond  Burdett Buckeridge  Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knoxs 386 is slick            Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
   Knoxs box is very quick       Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin

preprocess doc  From: jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz)
Subject: SSRT Roll-Out Speech
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 101
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

                               SSRT ROLLOUT

                Speech Delivered by Col. Simon P. Worden,
                     The Deputy for Technology, SDIO
                                    
                  Mcdonnell Douglas - Huntington Beach
                              April 3,1993

     Most of you, as am I, are "children of the 1960's."  We grew
up in an age of miracles -- Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles,
nuclear energy, computers, flights to the moon.  But these were
miracles of our parent's doing.  For a decade and more the pundits
have told us - "you've lost it!"  The "me" generation is only
living on the accomplishments of the past.

     You and I have even begun to believe the pessimists.  We
listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs.  Living
history they are.  We are privileged to hear those who did it tell
of it.  A few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as
General Bernie Schriever told of his team's work - and yes struggle
- to build this nation's Intercontinental Ballistic Missile.

     What stories can we tell?  Blurry-eyed telescopes?  Thousand
dollar toilet seats?  Even our space launch vehicles hearken only
of that past great time.  They are and seem destined to remain Gen.
Schriever's ICBMs.  I find it hard to swell with pride that the
best new space-lifter idea is to refurbish old Minuteman and
Poseidon ballistic missiles.

     Well - The pessimists are wrong.  The legacy is continuing. 
This event is proof.  To our technological parents: We've listened
to your stories.  We've caught your enthusiasm and can-do spirit. 
And we've learned from your achievements - and your mistakes.  Let
me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus
behind this history - Max Hunter.  You are one of the greatest
engineers of the firts great age of space exploration.  Your
insight and discipline built the Thor ICBM - later incorporated
into today's most successful launch vehicle - The Delta.

     You told us in the 60's that a new form of launch vehicle - a
single stage reusable rocket - can and should be built.  You
advocated this idea tirelessly.  It was elegantly simple, as are
all great breakthroughs.  You showed us how to build it.  You
convinced us it could be done.  You are working by our side to weld
its components into place.  Most important - you reminded us of a
prime engineering principle - undoubtably one you learned from the
generation before you - the generation that built transcontinental
aviation in the 1920's and 30's - build a little and test a little
and Max, you passed all of this on  to people like Pat Ladner who
started this program for the SDI.

     Douglas Aircraft didn't start with a DC-10.  They didn't even
start with a DC-3.  Our grandfathers built a little, tested a
little - even sold a little and made a little money - before they
moved on to the next step.  They didn't take a decade or more
before putting the first "rubber on the road."  Max Hunter - you
didn't take ten years to build Thor, and by God we're not going to
take ten years to show that low cost, single stage, reusable
aerospace transportation is real.

     We ended the cold war in a few short years.  It took the  same
team here today but a few years to show through the Strategic
Defense Initiative that the cold war must end.  We - you and us -
launched a series of satellites - The Delta experiments - in about
a year apiece.  This, more than anything else signaled our
commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the Soviet
Union.  Those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored
the importance of our work in bringing about a new international
relationship.

     But it is the same team which is now  putting in place the
framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the
next generation.  We will make space access routine and affordable.

     We built this magnificent flying machine in two years.  This
summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the
first time.  Then we can and surely will build in the next three
years a reusable sub-orbital rocket.  It will allow us to use space
rapidly, affordably, and efficiently as no other nation can.  And
yes - we'll make a little money off it too!

     Then - and only then - we'll spend another three years to
build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system.  The DC-3 of
space will be a reality!  We may even be able to use some of the
rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries. 
What a wonderful irony if this SDI product and Russian efforts to
counter SDI merge to power mankind's next step to the stars!

     To be sure, we must guard against the temptations to leap to
the final answer.  Robert Goddard's first rockets weren't Saturn
V's!  If we succumb  to the temptation to ask  for just a few extra
dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital
system - we will fail.  Max Hunter and his colleagues showed the
way.  Three years and a cloud of dust - in our case rocket
exhausts.  There is no short-cut.  If we expect to reshape the
world again - we must do it one brick at a time.  Minds on tasks at
hand!

     This project is real.  The torch of American technological
greatness is being passed.  We are Americans.  This machine is
American.  Let's go fly it!

after prepro  From jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz
Subject SSRT RollOut Speech
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 101
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

                               SSRT ROLLOUT

                Speech Delivered by Col Simon P Worden
                     The Deputy for Technology SDIO
                                    
                  Mcdonnell Douglas  Huntington Beach
                              April 31993

     Most of you as am I are children of the 1960s  We grew
up in an age of miracles  InterContinental Ballistic Missiles
nuclear energy computers flights to the moon  But these were
miracles of our parents doing  For a decade and more the pundits
have told us  youve lost it  The me generation is only
living on the accomplishments of the past

     You and I have even begun to believe the pessimists  We
listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs  Living
history they are  We are privileged to hear those who did it tell
of it  A few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as
General Bernie Schriever told of his teams work  and yes struggle
 to build this nations Intercontinental Ballistic Missile

     What stories can we tell  Blurryeyed telescopes  Thousand
dollar toilet seats  Even our space launch vehicles hearken only
of that past great time  They are and seem destined to remain Gen
Schrievers ICBMs  I find it hard to swell with pride that the
best new spacelifter idea is to refurbish old Minuteman and
Poseidon ballistic missiles

     Well  The pessimists are wrong  The legacy is continuing 
This event is proof  To our technological parents Weve listened
to your stories  Weve caught your enthusiasm and cando spirit 
And weve learned from your achievements  and your mistakes  Let
me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus
behind this history  Max Hunter  You are one of the greatest
engineers of the firts great age of space exploration  Your
insight and discipline built the Thor ICBM  later incorporated
into todays most successful launch vehicle  The Delta

     You told us in the 60s that a new form of launch vehicle  a
single stage reusable rocket  can and should be built  You
advocated this idea tirelessly  It was elegantly simple as are
all great breakthroughs  You showed us how to build it  You
convinced us it could be done  You are working by our side to weld
its components into place  Most important  you reminded us of a
prime engineering principle  undoubtably one you learned from the
generation before you  the generation that built transcontinental
aviation in the 1920s and 30s  build a little and test a little
and Max you passed all of this on  to people like Pat Ladner who
started this program for the SDI

     Douglas Aircraft didnt start with a DC10  They didnt even
start with a DC3  Our grandfathers built a little tested a
little  even sold a little and made a little money  before they
moved on to the next step  They didnt take a decade or more
before putting the first rubber on the road  Max Hunter  you
didnt take ten years to build Thor and by God were not going to
take ten years to show that low cost single stage reusable
aerospace transportation is real

     We ended the cold war in a few short years  It took the  same
team here today but a few years to show through the Strategic
Defense Initiative that the cold war must end  We  you and us 
launched a series of satellites  The Delta experiments  in about
a year apiece  This more than anything else signaled our
commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the Soviet
Union  Those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored
the importance of our work in bringing about a new international
relationship

     But it is the same team which is now  putting in place the
framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the
next generation  We will make space access routine and affordable

     We built this magnificent flying machine in two years  This
summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the
first time  Then we can and surely will build in the next three
years a reusable suborbital rocket  It will allow us to use space
rapidly affordably and efficiently as no other nation can  And
yes  well make a little money off it too

     Then  and only then  well spend another three years to
build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system  The DC3 of
space will be a reality  We may even be able to use some of the
rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries 
What a wonderful irony if this SDI product and Russian efforts to
counter SDI merge to power mankinds next step to the stars

     To be sure we must guard against the temptations to leap to
the final answer  Robert Goddards first rockets werent Saturn
Vs  If we succumb  to the temptation to ask  for just a few extra
dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital
system  we will fail  Max Hunter and his colleagues showed the
way  Three years and a cloud of dust  in our case rocket
exhausts  There is no shortcut  If we expect to reshape the
world again  we must do it one brick at a time  Minds on tasks at
hand

     This project is real  The torch of American technological
greatness is being passed  We are Americans  This machine is
American  Lets go fly it

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 29

In article <1993Apr6.124112.12959@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:

>For the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether Bobby's for real,
>you betcha. Welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse.
>I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below. Is anyone
>(Keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff?

	Sorry, I was, but I somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last 
couple of months or so. However, thanks to the efforts of Bobby, it is being 
replenished rather quickly!  

	Here is a recent favorite:

	--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 


--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re islamic authority over women
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 29

In article 1993Apr612411212959dcswarwickacuk simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale writes

For the guy who said hes just arrived and asked whether Bobbys for real
you betcha Welcome to altatheism and rest assured that it gets worse
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below Is anyone
Keith keeping a big file of such stuff

	Sorry I was but I somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last 
couple of months or so However thanks to the efforts of Bobby it is being 
replenished rather quickly  

	Here is a recent favorite

	


       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 





       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
In-Reply-To: prb@access.digex.com's message of 6 Apr 1993 14:06:57 -0400
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
	<pgf.734062799@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
	<SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> <1psgs1$so4@access.digex.net>
Lines: 38

On 6 Apr 1993 14:06:57 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:

Pat> In article <SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>
Pat> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:

>successful we were.  (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
>fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)
>

Pat> Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled.  Didn't one of them
Pat> have a total electrical failure in flight?  Was there machanical
Pat> backup systems?

All reaction-controlled aircraft are fly-by-wire, at least the RCS part
is.  On the X-15 the aerodynamic control surfaces (elevator, rudder, etc)
were conventionally controlled (pushrods and cables) but the RCS jets
were fly-by-wire.

|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing.  On the other
|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
|can't do.  

Pat> What do you mean?  Overstress the wings, and they fail at teh
Pat> joints?

Navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings, in order to save space
on the hangar deck.  The F-14 wings sweep, all the rest fold the
wingtips up at a joint.

Air Force planes don't have folding wings, since the Air Force has
lots of room.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

after prepro  From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
InReplyTo prbaccessdigexcoms message of 6 Apr 1993 140657 0400
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
	
 1psgs1so4accessdigexnet
Lines 38

On 6 Apr 1993 140657 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said

Pat In article 
Pat shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes

successful we were  Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog


Pat Gee I thought the X15 was Cable controlled  Didnt one of them
Pat have a total electrical failure in flight  Was there machanical
Pat backup systems

All reactioncontrolled aircraft are flybywire at least the RCS part
is  On the X15 the aerodynamic control surfaces elevator rudder etc
were conventionally controlled pushrods and cables but the RCS jets
were flybywire

The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing  On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do  

Pat What do you mean  Overstress the wings and they fail at teh
Pat joints

Navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings in order to save space
on the hangar deck  The F14 wings sweep all the rest fold the
wingtips up at a joint

Air Force planes dont have folding wings since the Air Force has
lots of room


Mary Shafer  DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov                    Of course I dont speak for NASA
 A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all  Unknown US fighter pilot

preprocess doc  From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: Vandalizing the sky
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 12

From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
> 
> Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
> please try to remember that there are more human activities than
> those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
> Priesthood.

Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may 
 freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..

-- 
* Fred Baube (tm)

after prepro  From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject Vandalizing the sky
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 12

From Phil G Fraering 
 
 Finally this isnt the Bronze Age []
 please try to remember that there are more human activities than
 those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
 Priesthood

Right the Profiting Caste is blessed by God and may 
 freely blare its presence in the evening twilight 

 
 Fred Baube tm

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 16

In <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com> pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:


>There are actually only two of us.  I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary.  Oh yeah,
>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.

Yes, and I do everyone else.  Why, you may wonder, don't I do 'Fred'?
Well, that would just be too *obvious*, wouldn't it?  Oh yeah, this
isn't my real name, either.  I'm actually Elvis.  Or maybe a lemur; I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 16

In 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes


There are actually only two of us  I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary  Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby

Yes and I do everyone else  Why you may wonder dont I do Fred
Well that would just be too obvious wouldnt it  Oh yeah this
isnt my real name either  Im actually Elvis  Or maybe a lemur I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Motorola
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 37

In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
>than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?

I haven't seen any speculation about it. But, the Salyut KB (Design Bureau) 
was planning a new LH/LOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (Geostationary goes from
2600 kg. (Gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. This scheme was competing
with the Energia-M last year and I haven't heard which won, except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the 
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the Energia-M. So the early
results are Energia-M won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in 
Russia. I'm sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue 
their development. 

The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton 
is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know 
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad?  

They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
(unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention. 

Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL

after prepro  From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Motorola
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 37

In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now

I havent seen any speculation about it But the Salyut KB Design Bureau 
was planning a new LHLOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg Geostationary goes from
2600 kg Gals launcher version to 6000 kg This scheme was competing
with the EnergiaM last year and I havent heard which won except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the 
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the EnergiaM So the early
results are EnergiaM won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in 
Russia Im sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue 
their development 

The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton 
is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know 
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad  

They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention 

Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL

preprocess doc  From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 38

In article <1qi156INNf9n@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno) writes:
> 
> Wow.  Leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes
> away-- how depressing.  Actually, there are a few familiar faces out there,
> counting Bob and Kent, but I don't seem to recognize anyone else.  Has anyone
> heard from Graham Matthews recently, or has he gotten his degree and sailed
> for Greener Pastures (tm)?  
> 
> Which brings me to the point of my posting.  How many people out there have 
> been around alt.atheism since 1990?  I've done my damnedest to stay on top of
> the newsgroup, but when you fall behind, you REALLY fall behind (it's still not
> as bad as rec.arts.startrek used to be, but I digress).  Has anyone tried to
> keep up with the deluge?  Inquiring minds want to know!  Also-- does anyone
> keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt.atheism end up, once they
> leave the newsgroup?  Just curious, I guess.
> 
> cheers,
> tom bruno


I am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded
respect for people who have been on newsgroups/mailing lists longer than I
have, so you certainly have my sympathy Tom.  I have only been semi-regularly
posting (it is TOUGHto keep up) since this February, but I have been reading
and following the threads since last August: my school's newsreader was down
for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new
feed site, so it wasn't accepting outgoing postings.  I don't think anyone
keeps track of where other posters go: it's that old love 'em and leave 'em
Internet for you again...


best regards,

********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper		"Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
*				   who thought themselves good simply because  *
* acooper@macalstr.edu				they had no claws."	       *
********************************************************************************

after prepro  From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Macalester College
Lines 38

In article 1qi156INNf9nsenatorbedfellowMITEDU tcbrunoathenamitedu Tom Bruno writes
 
 Wow  Leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes
 away how depressing  Actually there are a few familiar faces out there
 counting Bob and Kent but I dont seem to recognize anyone else  Has anyone
 heard from Graham Matthews recently or has he gotten his degree and sailed
 for Greener Pastures tm  
 
 Which brings me to the point of my posting  How many people out there have 
 been around altatheism since 1990  Ive done my damnedest to stay on top of
 the newsgroup but when you fall behind you REALLY fall behind its still not
 as bad as recartsstartrek used to be but I digress  Has anyone tried to
 keep up with the deluge  Inquiring minds want to know  Also does anyone
 keep track of where the more infamous posters to altatheism end up once they
 leave the newsgroup  Just curious I guess
 
 cheers
 tom bruno


I am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded
respect for people who have been on newsgroupsmailing lists longer than I
have so you certainly have my sympathy Tom  I have only been semiregularly
posting it is TOUGHto keep up since this February but I have been reading
and following the threads since last August my schools newsreader was down
for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new
feed site so it wasnt accepting outgoing postings  I dont think anyone
keeps track of where other posters go its that old love em and leave em
Internet for you again


best regards


 Adam John Cooper		Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings 
				   who thought themselves good simply because  
 acoopermacalstredu				they had no claws	       


preprocess doc  From: vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt)
Subject: Re: Islamic Banks (was Re: Slavery
Reply-To: vdp@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Foundation/Mayo Graduate School :Rochester, MN
Lines: 39

In article 28833@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au,  darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
#In <1993Apr14.143121.26376@bmw.mayo.edu> vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt) writes:
#>So instead of calling it interest on deposits, you call it *returns on investements*
#>and instead of calling loans you call it *investing in business* (that is in other words
#>floating stocks in your company). 
#
#No, interest is different from a return on an investment.  For one
#thing, a return on an investment has greater risk, and not a set return
#(i.e. the amount of money you make can go up or down, or you might even
#lose money).  The difference is, the risk of loss is shared by the
#investor, rather than practically all the risk being taken by the
#borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank.
#

But is it different from stocks ?  If you wish to call an investor in stocks as
a banker, well then its your choice .....

#>Relabeling does not make it interest free !!
#
#It is not just relabeling, as I have explained above.

It  *is* relabeling ...
Also its still not interest free. The investor is still taking some money ... as
dividend on his investment ... ofcourse the investor (in islamic *banking*, its your
so called *bank*)  is taking more risk than the usual bank, but its still getting some
thing back in return .... 

Also have you heard of junk bonds ???


---Vinayak
-------------------------------------------------------
                                           vinayak dutt
                                   e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu

             standard disclaimers apply
-------------------------------------------------------



after prepro  From vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt
Subject Re Islamic Banks was Re Slavery
ReplyTo vdpmayoedu
Organization Mayo FoundationMayo Graduate School Rochester MN
Lines 39

In article 28833monu6ccmonasheduau  dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In 1993Apr1414312126376bmwmayoedu vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt writes
So instead of calling it interest on deposits you call it returns on investements
and instead of calling loans you call it investing in business that is in other words
floating stocks in your company 

No interest is different from a return on an investment  For one
thing a return on an investment has greater risk and not a set return
ie the amount of money you make can go up or down or you might even
lose money  The difference is the risk of loss is shared by the
investor rather than practically all the risk being taken by the
borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank


But is it different from stocks   If you wish to call an investor in stocks as
a banker well then its your choice 

Relabeling does not make it interest free 

It is not just relabeling as I have explained above

It  is relabeling 
Also its still not interest free The investor is still taking some money  as
dividend on his investment  ofcourse the investor in islamic banking its your
so called bank  is taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some
thing back in return  

Also have you heard of junk bonds 


Vinayak

                                           vinayak dutt
                                   email vdpmayoedu

             standard disclaimers apply




preprocess doc  From: lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (Steve Lang)
Subject: Re: Objective Values 'v' Scientific Accuracy (was Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is)
Organization: Nottingham University
Lines: 38

In article <C5J718.Jzv@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly) wrote:
> In article <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
> 
> >Science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, 
> >as you would wish it.  
> 
> You must be using 'values' to mean something different from the way I
> see it used normally.
> 
> And you are certainly using 'Science' like that if you equate it to
> "the real world".
> 
> Science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the Universe
> and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning
> those perceptions.

Science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed
interpretations of our observations (perceptions).

> It has nothing to do with values as far as I can see.
> Values are ... well they are what I value.
> They are what I would have rather than not have - what I would experience
> rather than not, and so on.

Values can also refer to meaning.  For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE, and 0 is FALSE.  Science is based on commonly agreed
values (interpretation of observations), although science can result in a
reinterpretation of these values.

> Objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are
> applicable to everyone.

The values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been
fully agreed, and the change with time.  The values of Newtonian physic are
certainly different to those of Quantum Mechanics.

Steve Lang
SLANG->SLING->SLINK->SLICK->SLACK->SHACK->SHANK->THANK->THINK->THICK

after prepro  From lpzsmlunicornnottacuk Steve Lang
Subject Re Objective Values v Scientific Accuracy was Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Nottingham University
Lines 38

In article  tkdcsedacuk Tommy Kelly wrote
 In article 1qjahhmrshorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 
 Science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round 
 as you would wish it  
 
 You must be using values to mean something different from the way I
 see it used normally
 
 And you are certainly using Science like that if you equate it to
 the real world
 
 Science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the Universe
 and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning
 those perceptions

Science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed
interpretations of our observations perceptions

 It has nothing to do with values as far as I can see
 Values are  well they are what I value
 They are what I would have rather than not have  what I would experience
 rather than not and so on

Values can also refer to meaning  For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE and 0 is FALSE  Science is based on commonly agreed
values interpretation of observations although science can result in a
reinterpretation of these values

 Objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are
 applicable to everyone

The values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been
fully agreed and the change with time  The values of Newtonian physic are
certainly different to those of Quantum Mechanics

Steve Lang
SLANGSLINGSLINKSLICKSLACKSHACKSHANKTHANKTHINKTHICK

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: MACH 25 landing site bases?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.193829.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

The supersonic booms hear a few months ago over I belive San Fran, heading east
of what I heard, some new super speed Mach 25 aircraft?? What military based
int he direction of flight are there that could handle a Mach 25aircraft on its
landing decent?? Odd question??

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject MACH 25 landing site bases
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51938291
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 7
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

The supersonic booms hear a few months ago over I belive San Fran heading east
of what I heard some new super speed Mach 25 aircraft What military based
int he direction of flight are there that could handle a Mach 25aircraft on its
landing decent Odd question


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestion for "resources" FAQ
In-Reply-To: <C5qKDy.40D@liverpool.ac.uk>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 34

>DATE:   Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:01:10 GMT
>FROM:   Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
>
>I think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good.
>
>I confess I don't know of any---indeed that's why I checked the FAQ to see
>if it had one---but I'm sure some alert reader does.
>
>I think the list of books suffers far too much from being Christian based;
>I agree that most of the traffic is of this nature (although a few Islamic
>references might be good) but I still think an overview would be nice.

One book I have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions
is called _Man's Religions_ by John B. Noss.  It was a textbook in a class
I had on comparative religion or some such thing.  It has some decent
bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading.

It doesn't "compare" religions directly but describes each one individually
and notes a few similarities.  But nothing I have read in it could be even
remotely described as preachy or Christian based.  In fact, Christianity
mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages.  The book is
divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began 
(India, East Asia, Near East).  There is nothing about New World religions
from the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, etc.  Just the stuff people kill each
other over nowadays.  And a few of the older religions snuffed out along
the way.  

If you like the old stuff, then a couple of books called "The Ancient Near
East" by James B. Pritchard are pretty cool.  Got the Epic of Gilgamesh,
Code of Hammurabi, all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods
were men.  Essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own
religion and make it sound real good.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re Suggestion for resources FAQ
InReplyTo 
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 34

DATE   Mon 19 Apr 1993 150110 GMT
FROM   Bruce Stephens 

I think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good

I confess I dont know of anyindeed thats why I checked the FAQ to see
if it had onebut Im sure some alert reader does

I think the list of books suffers far too much from being Christian based
I agree that most of the traffic is of this nature although a few Islamic
references might be good but I still think an overview would be nice

One book I have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions
is called _Mans Religions_ by John B Noss  It was a textbook in a class
I had on comparative religion or some such thing  It has some decent
bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading

It doesnt compare religions directly but describes each one individually
and notes a few similarities  But nothing I have read in it could be even
remotely described as preachy or Christian based  In fact Christianity
mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages  The book is
divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began 
India East Asia Near East  There is nothing about New World religions
from the Aztecs Mayas Incas etc  Just the stuff people kill each
other over nowadays  And a few of the older religions snuffed out along
the way  

If you like the old stuff then a couple of books called The Ancient Near
East by James B Pritchard are pretty cool  Got the Epic of Gilgamesh
Code of Hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods
were men  Essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own
religion and make it sound real good



preprocess doc  From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: Looking for a little research help
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 19
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com


Hi,
  
  I'm writing a science fiction script and I'm looking for some
answers to questions regarding the Moon and Earth. My starting point
is an impossible situation.  [I checked with a professor at berkeley
and his response was a VERY helpful "can't happen".] If you enjoy
playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions
please contact me via e-mail (jennise@dgi.com).

  I get extremely annoyed when screen and tele-plays ignore basic
facts about computers that I'm determined to be as scientifically
accurate as I can.


  Sorry for being vague, but I'd like to protect my idea as much as I
can until I'm ready to sell it (hopefully).

Jennise

after prepro  From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject Looking for a little research help
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 19
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom


Hi
  
  Im writing a science fiction script and Im looking for some
answers to questions regarding the Moon and Earth My starting point
is an impossible situation  [I checked with a professor at berkeley
and his response was a VERY helpful cant happen] If you enjoy
playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions
please contact me via email jennisedgicom

  I get extremely annoyed when screen and teleplays ignore basic
facts about computers that Im determined to be as scientifically
accurate as I can


  Sorry for being vague but Id like to protect my idea as much as I
can until Im ready to sell it hopefully

Jennise

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 19

In article <115846@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>Certainly. It is a central aspect of Islam to show mercy and to give
>those who've done wrong (even presuming Rushdie _did_ violate Islamic
>Law) and committed crimes. This was the basis for my posts regarding
>leniency which seemed not to have penetrated Benedikt's skull.
 
You have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes. Repeating
offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at
all. Typically religious doublespeak. Whenever you have contradictory
statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument.
 
It is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make Theodore KKKaldis
feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion.
 
Gregg, tell us, would you kill idolaters?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 19

In article 115846buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
Deletion
Certainly It is a central aspect of Islam to show mercy and to give
those whove done wrong even presuming Rushdie _did_ violate Islamic
Law and committed crimes This was the basis for my posts regarding
leniency which seemed not to have penetrated Benedikts skull
 
You have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes Repeating
offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at
all Typically religious doublespeak Whenever you have contradictory
statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument
 
It is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make Theodore KKKaldis
feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion
 
Gregg tell us would you kill idolaters
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Elevator to the top floor
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 56


Reading from a Amoco Performance Products data sheet, their
ERL-1906 resin with T40 carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive
strength of 280,000 psi.  It has a density of 0.058 lb/cu in,
therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column
that can just support itself is 4.8 million inches, or 400,000 ft,
or 75 Statute miles.

Now, a real structure will have horizontal bracing (either a truss
type, or guy wires, or both) and will be used below the crush strength.
Let us assume that we will operate at 40% of the theoretical 
strength.  This gives a working height of 30 miles for a constant
section column.  

A constant section column is not the limit on how high you can
build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section
as you go up.  For example, let us say you have a 280,000 pound
load to support at the top of the tower (for simplicity in
calculation).  This requires 2.5 square inches of column cross
sectional area to support the weight.  The mile of structure
below the payload will itself weigh 9,200 lb, so at 1 mile 
below the payload, the total load is now 289,200 lb, a 3.3% increase.

The next mile of structure must be 3.3% thicker in cross section
to support the top mile of tower plus the payload.  Each mile
of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way
to the bottom.  We can see from this that there is no theoretical
limit on area, although there will be practical limits based
on how much composites we can afford to by at $40/lb, and how
much load you need to support on the ground (for which you need
a foundation that the bedrock can support.

Let us arbitrarily choose $1 billion as the limit in costruction
cost.  With this we can afford perhaps 10,000,000 lb of composites,
assuming our finished structure costs $100/lb.  The $40/lb figure
is just for materials cost.  Then we have a tower/payload mass
ratio of 35.7:1.  At a 3.3% mass ratio per mile, the tower
height becomes 111 miles.  This is clearly above the significant
atmosphere.  A rocket launched from the top of the tower will still
have to provide orbital velocity, but atmospheric drag and g-losses
will be almost eliminated.  G-losses are the component of
rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity,
but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity.  Thus
they represent wasted thrust.  Together with drag, rockets starting
from the ground have a 15% velocity penalty to contend with.

This analysis is simplified, in that it does not consider wind
loads.  These will require more structural support over the first
15 miles of height.  Above that, the air pressure drops to a low
enough value for it not to be a big factor.

Dani Eder

-- 
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.

after prepro  From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Elevator to the top floor
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 56


Reading from a Amoco Performance Products data sheet their
ERL1906 resin with T40 carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive
strength of 280000 psi  It has a density of 0058 lbcu in
therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column
that can just support itself is 48 million inches or 400000 ft
or 75 Statute miles

Now a real structure will have horizontal bracing either a truss
type or guy wires or both and will be used below the crush strength
Let us assume that we will operate at 40 of the theoretical 
strength  This gives a working height of 30 miles for a constant
section column  

A constant section column is not the limit on how high you can
build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section
as you go up  For example let us say you have a 280000 pound
load to support at the top of the tower for simplicity in
calculation  This requires 25 square inches of column cross
sectional area to support the weight  The mile of structure
below the payload will itself weigh 9200 lb so at 1 mile 
below the payload the total load is now 289200 lb a 33 increase

The next mile of structure must be 33 thicker in cross section
to support the top mile of tower plus the payload  Each mile
of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way
to the bottom  We can see from this that there is no theoretical
limit on area although there will be practical limits based
on how much composites we can afford to by at 40lb and how
much load you need to support on the ground for which you need
a foundation that the bedrock can support

Let us arbitrarily choose 1 billion as the limit in costruction
cost  With this we can afford perhaps 10000000 lb of composites
assuming our finished structure costs 100lb  The 40lb figure
is just for materials cost  Then we have a towerpayload mass
ratio of 3571  At a 33 mass ratio per mile the tower
height becomes 111 miles  This is clearly above the significant
atmosphere  A rocket launched from the top of the tower will still
have to provide orbital velocity but atmospheric drag and glosses
will be almost eliminated  Glosses are the component of
rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity
but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity  Thus
they represent wasted thrust  Together with drag rockets starting
from the ground have a 15 velocity penalty to contend with

This analysis is simplified in that it does not consider wind
loads  These will require more structural support over the first
15 miles of height  Above that the air pressure drops to a low
enough value for it not to be a big factor

Dani Eder

 
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 14

This is fascinating. Atheists argue for abortion, defend homosexuality
as a means of population control, insist that the only values are
biological and condemn war and capital punishment. According to
Benedikt, if something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in
this case means atheists I suppose.
I would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an
excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital
punishment, I'm sorry but the logic escapes me.
And why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the
propriety of killing or of punishment? What is the basis of the
ecomplaint?

Bill


after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 14

This is fascinating Atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality
as a means of population control insist that the only values are
biological and condemn war and capital punishment According to
Benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in
this case means atheists I suppose
I would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an
excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital
punishment Im sorry but the logic escapes me
And why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the
propriety of killing or of punishment What is the basis of the
ecomplaint

Bill


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek (Better Ideas)
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.154449.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1rbp6q$oai@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> In article <1993Apr22.214735.22733@Princeton.EDU> phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser) writes:
>>A transporter operator!?!?  That better be one important transport.  Usually  
>>it is a nameless ensign who does the job.  For such a guest appearance I would  
>>have expected a more visible/meaningful role.
> 
> 
> Christian  Slater, only gota  cameo on ST6,  
> 
> and besides.
> 
> Maybe she can't act:-)
> 
> pat
> 

Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch..

Maybe age Jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost.. 

Heh of late, they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media,
anything can happen.. 

Imagine a Astronaut/Crew member to find themselves in the 24th Century as the
object of interest of an alien civilization, maybe rescued or helped by the ST
Enterprise...  I know Vegr and such was okay, but this could be better..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek Better Ideas
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251544491
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 31
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1rbp6qoaiaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
 In article 1993Apr2221473522733PrincetonEDU phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser writes
A transporter operator  That better be one important transport  Usually  
it is a nameless ensign who does the job  For such a guest appearance I would  
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role
 
 
 Christian  Slater only gota  cameo on ST6  
 
 and besides
 
 Maybe she cant act
 
 pat
 

Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other spacetime glitch

Maybe age Jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost 

Heh of late they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media
anything can happen 

Imagine a AstronautCrew member to find themselves in the 24th Century as the
object of interest of an alien civilization maybe rescued or helped by the ST
Enterprise  I know Vegr and such was okay but this could be better


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 25

In article <schumach.734984753@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:

>Would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use
>as a reuseable sounding rocket?

DC-X as is today isn't suitable for this. However, the followon SDIO
funds will. A reusable sounding rocket was always SDIO's goal.

>Thank Ghod! I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
>bastard Son of NLS.

So did I. There is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon 
which should be very favorable. The insiders have been very bush briefing
the right people and it is now paying off.

However, public support is STILL critical. In politics you need to keep
constant pressure on elected officials.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 25

In article  schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher writes

Would the suborbital version be suitable asis or aswillbe for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket

DCX as is today isnt suitable for this However the followon SDIO
funds will A reusable sounding rocket was always SDIOs goal

Thank Ghod I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS

So did I There is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon 
which should be very favorable The insiders have been very bush briefing
the right people and it is now paying off

However public support is STILL critical In politics you need to keep
constant pressure on elected officials

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <115571@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <2BCC892B.21864@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>
>>In article <115290@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>
>>>Well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
>>>would not be relevant to you. I can understand your fear of persecution
>>>and I share it even more than you (being muslim), however Rushdie's
>>>behavior was not completely excusable.

As much as I considered some of the (so-called) Islam-related dialogue
here a total waste of time, I somehow can't restrain myself in this
instance, so, Gregg, try this:

20:52 P.S.T.  I come to my senses and accept the all-knowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah.  Not only that, but Allah 
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down.  Then Allah gets out the Crisco, bends 
over, and invites me to take a spin around the block.  Wow.

20:56 P.S.T.  I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a 
commitment than I'm ready for, so I say "Man, I've got some
programming to do.  Gotta go.  I'll call you."

20:59 P.S.T   Thinking it over, I renounce Islam.

BTW, Gregg, Allah said he still thinks of you.

Jim


after prepro  From jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost carsonuwashingtonedu

In article 115571buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 2BCC892B21864icsuciedu bvickersicsuciedu Brett J Vickers writes

In article 115290buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
would not be relevant to you I can understand your fear of persecution
and I share it even more than you being muslim however Rushdies
behavior was not completely excusable

As much as I considered some of the socalled Islamrelated dialogue
here a total waste of time I somehow cant restrain myself in this
instance so Gregg try this

2052 PST  I come to my senses and accept the allknowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah  Not only that but Allah 
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down  Then Allah gets out the Crisco bends 
over and invites me to take a spin around the block  Wow

2056 PST  I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a 
commitment than Im ready for so I say Man Ive got some
programming to do  Gotta go  Ill call you

2059 PST   Thinking it over I renounce Islam

BTW Gregg Allah said he still thinks of you

Jim


preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
In-Reply-To: <timmbake.735261806@mcl>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 18

>DATE:   19 Apr 93 23:23:26 GMT
>FROM:   Bake Timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu>
>
>My my, there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands.  :)
>
>OK, first I apologize.  I didn't bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
>imprecise flame.  That was inexcusable.
>

How about the nickname Bake "Flamethrower" Timmons?

You weren't at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you?

Remember, Koresh "dried" for your sins.  

And pass that beef jerky.  Umm Umm.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
InReplyTo 
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 18

DATE   19 Apr 93 232326 GMT
FROM   Bake Timmons 

My my there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands  

OK first I apologize  I didnt bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
imprecise flame  That was inexcusable


How about the nickname Bake Flamethrower Timmons

You werent at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you

Remember Koresh dried for your sins  

And pass that beef jerky  Umm Umm



preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 22
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <1993Apr21.204941.15055@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>
>>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 
>
>Why would you want to do that? The goal is to do it cheaper (remember,
>this isn't government). Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad,
>just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility.

Allen, sometimes I think you're OK.  And sometimes you tend to rashly leap into
making statement without thinking them out. 

Wanna guess which today?

You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad? 



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 22
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article 1993Apr2120494115055itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes

So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 

Why would you want to do that The goal is to do it cheaper remember
this isnt government Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility

Allen sometimes I think youre OK  And sometimes you tend to rashly leap into
making statement without thinking them out 

Wanna guess which today

Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad 



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Organization: University of Central Florida
Distribution: na
Lines: 18

> In <1993Apr3.233154.7045@Princeton.EDU> lije@cognito.Princeton.EDU (Elijah  
Millgram) writes:
> 
> 
> A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression "pushing
> the envelope" comes from.  Anyone out there know?
> 
Everbody has been defining envelope.
Why was the world "envelope" chosen, rather than say "shell", 
or "boundary".  In analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps?

Actually, "shell" might be good.  Push the shell too hard and
it (the aircraft?) breaks. 
--
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training, University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway, Suite 300, Orlando, FL 32826
(407)658-5030, FAX: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu

after prepro  From clarkeacmeucfedu Thomas Clarke
Subject Re pushing the envelope
Organization University of Central Florida
Distribution na
Lines 18

 In 1993Apr32331547045PrincetonEDU lijecognitoPrincetonEDU Elijah  
Millgram writes
 
 
 A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression pushing
 the envelope comes from  Anyone out there know
 
Everbody has been defining envelope
Why was the world envelope chosen rather than say shell 
or boundary  In analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps

Actually shell might be good  Push the shell too hard and
it the aircraft breaks 

Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway Suite 300 Orlando FL 32826
4076585030 FAX 4076585059 clarkeacmeucfedu

preprocess doc  From: goltz@mimi.UU.NET (James P. Goltz)
Subject: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA, USA
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: mimi.uu.net


  Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.  It
would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft.
The idea was that you'd detonate devices with somewhere from one to
ten megatons yield behind a "pusher plate" attached to the main
spacecraft.  The shock wave from the explosions would transfer
momentum to the ship.

  Now, in an atmosphere I can see this.  The energy of the explosion
heats the atmosphere, which expands explosively and slams a shock wave
into the pusher plate.  But in a vacuum, only two things I can see are
going to hit the plate: fission/fusion products (barium, krypton,
helium, neutrons, evaporated bomb casing) and electromagnetic
radiation (gammas mostly, some light/heat from irradiated fission
products).

  Would this work?  I can't see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum (especially given the mass of the pusher plate), and it seems
to me you're going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
they're there.

  I must be missing something.  Would someone enlighten me via email?

  Thanks.

-- 
	--Jim

---
Jim Goltz                    AlterNet Engineer               goltz@uunet.uu.net

after prepro  From goltzmimiUUNET James P Goltz
Subject Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization UUNET Technologies Inc Falls Church VA USA
Lines 31
NNTPPostingHost mimiuunet


  Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept  It
would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft
The idea was that youd detonate devices with somewhere from one to
ten megatons yield behind a pusher plate attached to the main
spacecraft  The shock wave from the explosions would transfer
momentum to the ship

  Now in an atmosphere I can see this  The energy of the explosion
heats the atmosphere which expands explosively and slams a shock wave
into the pusher plate  But in a vacuum only two things I can see are
going to hit the plate fissionfusion products barium krypton
helium neutrons evaporated bomb casing and electromagnetic
radiation gammas mostly some lightheat from irradiated fission
products

  Would this work  I cant see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems
to me youre going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
theyre there

  I must be missing something  Would someone enlighten me via email

  Thanks

 
	Jim


Jim Goltz                    AlterNet Engineer               goltzuunetuunet

preprocess doc  From: jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov (J. I. Blackshear Jr.)
Subject: DSPSE (was Why Clementine?)
Reply-To: jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: Barrios Technology @ NASA/JSC; Houston
Lines: 29

The SDIO has "contracted" with the NRL (Naval Research Laboratory) to fly the Clementine Mission.  BTW we call it DSPSE (Deep Space Project Science Experiment).

The NRL is building the spacecraft, designing the detailed mission and doing the
integration and operations (with help from, JPL & Goddard & prob. some folks I
have left out...don't be mad).

I am on the TAMP (Trajectory Analysis & Mission Planning) team and am responsable
for the IV&V of the traj that Goddard/CSC are designing.

As for why SDIO is doing it, some of the reasons are:

   1)  the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the LIDAR in LEO

   2)  in LEO we don't get any new radiation data on the sensors, we will get
       that data on our 9 passages through the Van Allen (sp?) Belts

   3)  since we are going out there...why not piggy-back some general science

   4)  the intercept problem is a lot easied over LONG distances and LONG times

I am sure there are some things I have forgotten, and some I haven't been told
but, those are the reasons we all talk about.

-- 


                                             Jim Blackshear
                                             jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov


after prepro  From jibbonniejscnasagov J I Blackshear Jr
Subject DSPSE was Why Clementine
ReplyTo jibbonniejscnasagov
Organization Barrios Technology  NASAJSC Houston
Lines 29

The SDIO has contracted with the NRL Naval Research Laboratory to fly the Clementine Mission  BTW we call it DSPSE Deep Space Project Science Experiment

The NRL is building the spacecraft designing the detailed mission and doing the
integration and operations with help from JPL  Goddard  prob some folks I
have left outdont be mad

I am on the TAMP Trajectory Analysis  Mission Planning team and am responsable
for the IVV of the traj that GoddardCSC are designing

As for why SDIO is doing it some of the reasons are

   1  the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the LIDAR in LEO

   2  in LEO we dont get any new radiation data on the sensors we will get
       that data on our 9 passages through the Van Allen sp Belts

   3  since we are going out therewhy not piggyback some general science

   4  the intercept problem is a lot easied over LONG distances and LONG times

I am sure there are some things I have forgotten and some I havent been told
but those are the reasons we all talk about

 


                                             Jim Blackshear
                                             jibbonniejscnasagov


preprocess doc  From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject:  ORION space drive
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: beethoven.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 16

An excellent reference for non-technical readers on the ORION system is
"The Starflight Handbook", by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff, ISBN
0-471-61912-4. The relevant chapter is 4: Nuclear Pulse Propulsion.

The book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically
inclined. 

Enjoy!
---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/    Nathan F. Wallace                   C/C/           "Reality Is"         C/
C/    e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu   C/C/    ancient Alphaean proverb    C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
 



after prepro  From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject  ORION space drive
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost beethovencscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University  Computer Science Dept
Lines 16

An excellent reference for nontechnical readers on the ORION system is
The Starflight Handbook by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff ISBN
0471619124 The relevant chapter is 4 Nuclear Pulse Propulsion

The book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically
inclined 

Enjoy

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C    Nathan F Wallace                   CC           Reality Is         C
C    email wallacencscolostateedu   CC    ancient Alphaean proverb    C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 



preprocess doc  From: ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick)
Subject: DC-X & DC-Y
Organization: Rutherford Appleton Lab, UK
Lines: 15


Hi guys,
	I've been hearing lots of talk on the net about DC-X and DC-Y,
but none of the many posts actually explain what they are !!! Sorry if
this is a FAQ, but would somebody please explain to me what they are.
Reply by Email please . . . thanks.

	Andy

ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk
-- 
                                  ----------------------------------- 
Andy Jonathan J. Broderick,      | "I have come that they might have |
Rutherford Lab., UK              |  life, and have it to the full"   |
Mail : ajjb@adam2.bnsc.rl.ac.uk  |  - Jesus Christ                   |

after prepro  From ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick
Subject DCX  DCY
Organization Rutherford Appleton Lab UK
Lines 15


Hi guys
	Ive been hearing lots of talk on the net about DCX and DCY
but none of the many posts actually explain what they are  Sorry if
this is a FAQ but would somebody please explain to me what they are
Reply by Email please    thanks

	Andy

ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk
 
                                   
Andy Jonathan J Broderick       I have come that they might have 
Rutherford Lab UK                life and have it to the full   
Mail  ajjbadam2bnscrlacuk     Jesus Christ                   

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 11

In article <1993Apr3.214741.14026@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>
> My claim is that a person that committs a crime doesn't believe in 
> God, for the moment that the crime is committed, at least, whether 
> they are originally believers or not.  To believe is to do good.  
> Your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism.

And doubtless, when an atheist does an act of charity
they temporarily become a Baptist.

jon. 

after prepro  Subject Re islamic authority over women
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 11

In article 1993Apr321474114026ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

 My claim is that a person that committs a crime doesnt believe in 
 God for the moment that the crime is committed at least whether 
 they are originally believers or not  To believe is to do good  
 Your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism

And doubtless when an atheist does an act of charity
they temporarily become a Baptist

jon 

preprocess doc  From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War
Lines: 128

In article <930414.121019.7E4.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr12.143834.26803@seachg.com> chrisb@seachg.com (Chris
>>Blask) writes:
>>>Add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death (special cell
>>>block, years of court costs, extra guards...) and the benefits of the death
>>>penalty entirely disappear.
>> 
>> That's because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death
>> overrides the benefit of all the others.  Obviously it's tragic,  but
>> it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty.  If we went
>> to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time
>> (because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect), then
>> there is no way to win the war.
> 
> Yes.  Fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power,
> and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of
> thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait.  We won the war,
> hurrah hurrah!

The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and 
exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media.  The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians 
in any other war of comparable size this century!  This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently.

The idea that "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi citizens died is
ludicrous.  Not even "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi soldiers died,
and they were the ones being targeted!  Or do you think that the US
and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim Iraqi civilians?
Either the smart bombs didn't hit their targets (and we know they did),
or they were targeting civilian targets (!) which is hardly condusive to
destroying Iraq's military potential.  The military mission planners are
not fools, they know they have to hit *military* targets to win a war.
Hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you,
not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their
tyrant-dictator. 
> 
> OK, so some innocent people died.  Yes, maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing
> along that road didn't need to be bombed to bits.  Perhaps that kid with half
> his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren't
> entirely guilty.  But it's worth the death of a few innocents to save the
> oil^H^H^Hlives of the Kuwaiti people, isn't it?  After all, the Iraqis may
> not have had a chance to vote for Saddam, but they showed their acceptance of
> his regime by not assassinating him, right?  All that surrendering and
> fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy.  We were entirely within
> our rights to bomb 'em just in case, without finding out if they were
> soldiers.

How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
I don't hear you bemoaning them!  War is never an exact science, but
with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties.  Sometimes mistakes are made; targets are
misidentified; innocents die.  That's war the way it really is.
But the alternative, to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth
like it's one big rummage sale, grabbing everything they can get is
worse.  Like Patrick Henry said some 217 years ago, "I know not what
course others may take -- but as for me, give me liberty, or give me
death!"  War is always the price one must be willing to pay if one
wishes to stay free.   

> 
>> The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime,  but the legal
>> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court
>> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
>> it should be.  Hence the question is,  do we instate the death penalty as
>> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of
>> it entirely?
> 
> Yes, let's reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be.  All that shit
> about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice. 
> Let's give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty, and save
> ourselves the expense of all those lawyers.
> 
> Think of the knock-on benefits, too.  LA would never have had to spend so
> much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops
> had been allowed to do their job properly.  A quick bullet through the head
> of Rodney King and another for the cameraman, and everyone would have been
> saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense.
> 
> After all, if the police decide a man's guilty, that ought to be enough.  The
> fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect
> over imprisonment, well, that's entirely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> mathew
> -- 

Mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here.
You come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although I
feel sure that was not your intent.

So the Iraqi war was wrong, eh?  I'm sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war, just like it did in WW2, eh?  I guess we
shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.  How about all the poor 
French who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent?  We 
should have just let Hitler take over Europe, and you'd be speaking
German instead of English right now.

Tyrants like Hussein *have* to be stopped.  His kind don't understand
diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun.  My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into Baghdad, so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi people's sacrifice (not to
mention the 357 Americans who died) was for naught.  Liberating Kuwait 
was a good thing, but wiping Hussein off the map would've been better!

And as for poor, poor Rodney King!  Did you ever stop and think *why*
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
have not seen.  When one makes a judgment without the benefit of a
trial where evidence can be presented on both sides, one has simply
lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice, a state-of-mind
which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against, but instead tends
to support in the case against the policemen.  

Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused,
whether they be criminals or cops.  One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict.  Anyone else is simply
succumbing to verbal vigilantism.
       
Regards,

Jim B.

after prepro  From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty  Gulf War
Lines 128

In article 9304141210197E4rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew  writes
 rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding writes
In article 1993Apr1214383426803seachgcom chrisbseachgcom Chris
Blask writes
Add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death special cell
block years of court costs extra guards and the benefits of the death
penalty entirely disappear
 
 Thats because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death
 overrides the benefit of all the others  Obviously its tragic  but
 it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty  If we went
 to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time
 because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect then
 there is no way to win the war
 
 Yes  Fortunately we have rightthinking folks like your good self in power
 and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of
 thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait  We won the war
 hurrah hurrah

The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way overexaggerated and 
exploited for antiwar emotionalism by the liberal news media  The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians 
in any other war of comparable size this century  This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently

The idea that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens died is
ludicrous  Not even hundreds of thousands of Iraqi soldiers died
and they were the ones being targeted  Or do you think that the US
and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim Iraqi civilians
Either the smart bombs didnt hit their targets and we know they did
or they were targeting civilian targets  which is hardly condusive to
destroying Iraqs military potential  The military mission planners are
not fools they know they have to hit military targets to win a war
Hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you
not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their
tyrantdictator 
 
 OK so some innocent people died  Yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing
 along that road didnt need to be bombed to bits  Perhaps that kid with half
 his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs werent
 entirely guilty  But its worth the death of a few innocents to save the
 oil^H^H^Hlives of the Kuwaiti people isnt it  After all the Iraqis may
 not have had a chance to vote for Saddam but they showed their acceptance of
 his regime by not assassinating him right  All that surrendering and
 fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy  We were entirely within
 our rights to bomb em just in case without finding out if they were
 soldiers

How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
I dont hear you bemoaning them  War is never an exact science but
with smart bombs its becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties  Sometimes mistakes are made targets are
misidentified innocents die  Thats war the way it really is
But the alternative to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth
like its one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get is
worse  Like Patrick Henry said some 217 years ago I know not what
course others may take  but as for me give me liberty or give me
death  War is always the price one must be willing to pay if one
wishes to stay free   

 
 The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime  but the legal
 shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court
 battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
 it should be  Hence the question is  do we instate the death penalty as
 it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of
 it entirely
 
 Yes lets reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be  All that shit
 about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice 
 Lets give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty and save
 ourselves the expense of all those lawyers
 
 Think of the knockon benefits too  LA would never have had to spend so
 much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops
 had been allowed to do their job properly  A quick bullet through the head
 of Rodney King and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been
 saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense
 
 After all if the police decide a mans guilty that ought to be enough  The
 fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect
 over imprisonment well thats entirely irrelevant
 
 
 mathew
  

Mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely offbase here
You come off sounding like a complete peacenik idiot although I
feel sure that was not your intent

So the Iraqi war was wrong eh  Im sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war just like it did in WW2 eh  I guess we
shouldnt have fought WW2 either  just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg  How about all the poor 
French who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent  We 
should have just let Hitler take over Europe and youd be speaking
German instead of English right now

Tyrants like Hussein have to be stopped  His kind dont understand
diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun  My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didnt have the military roll into Baghdad so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi peoples sacrifice not to
mention the 357 Americans who died was for naught  Liberating Kuwait 
was a good thing but wiping Hussein off the map wouldve been better

And as for poor poor Rodney King  Did you ever stop and think why
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
have not seen  When one makes a judgment without the benefit of a
trial where evidence can be presented on both sides one has simply
lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice a stateofmind
which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends
to support in the case against the policemen  

Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused
whether they be criminals or cops  One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of ones guilt and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict  Anyone else is simply
succumbing to verbal vigilantism
       
Regards

Jim B

preprocess doc  From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 44

In article <C5w5un.Bpq@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry
Spencer) wrote:
> 
> The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply (for
> more than a brief visit, at least) is low-cost transport to Earth orbit.
> For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs, you can develop
> a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper.  (Delta Clipper
> might be a bit more expensive than this, perhaps, but there are less
> ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit.)  

Ah, there's the rub.  And a catch-22 to boot.  For the purposes of a
contest, you'll probably not compete if'n you can't afford the ride to get
there.  And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable, without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system.  Course, if a
low priced system existed, there might be demand...  

I wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage
low cost payload delivery systems.  The accounting methods would probably
be the hardest to work out.  For example, would you allow Rockwell to
'loan' you the engines?  And so forth...

> Any plan for doing
> sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
> money in a big way.
> 

This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line.  In other
words, perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology (life support,
navigation, etc.) could be developed prior to a low cost launch system. 
You wouldn't want to use the expensive stuff forever, but I'd hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac, oops, I mean launch
system comes on line.

I guess I'd simplify this to say that 'waste' is a slippery concept.  If
your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next 5 years, then perhaps its
not 'wasted' money.  If your goal is to explore the moon for under $500
million, then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so.

Craig


Craig Keithley           |"I don't remember, I don't recall, 
Apple Computer, Inc.     |I got no memory of anything at all"
keithley@apple.com       |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)

after prepro  From keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization Apple Computer Inc
Lines 44

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry
Spencer wrote
 
 The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply for
 more than a brief visit at least is lowcost transport to Earth orbit
 For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs you can develop
 a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper  Delta Clipper
 might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less
 ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit  

Ah theres the rub  And a catch22 to boot  For the purposes of a
contest youll probably not compete ifn you cant afford the ride to get
there  And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system  Course if a
low priced system existed there might be demand  

I wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage
low cost payload delivery systems  The accounting methods would probably
be the hardest to work out  For example would you allow Rockwell to
loan you the engines  And so forth

 Any plan for doing
 sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
 money in a big way
 

This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line  In other
words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support
navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system 
You wouldnt want to use the expensive stuff forever but Id hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac oops I mean launch
system comes on line

I guess Id simplify this to say that waste is a slippery concept  If
your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next 5 years then perhaps its
not wasted money  If your goal is to explore the moon for under 500
million then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so

Craig


Craig Keithley           I dont remember I dont recall 
Apple Computer Inc     I got no memory of anything at all
keithleyapplecom       Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980

preprocess doc  From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: LRDPA news
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 28

        Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the 
Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now. This bill, also known as the Back to 
the Moon bill, would authorize the U.S. 
government to purchase lunar science data from private 
and non-profit vendors, selected on the basis of competitive bidding, with an 
aggregate cap on bid awards of $65 million. 
        If you have a copy of the bill, and can't or don't want to go through 
all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislation,don't both - you have 
a free resource to evaluate the bill for you. Your local congressional office, 
listed in the phone book,is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the
bill to legal experts. Simply ask them to do so, and to consider supporting
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act. 
        If you do get feedback, negative or positive, from your congressional 
office, please forward it to: David Anderman
3136 E. Yorba Linda Blvd., Apt G-14, Fullerton, CA 92631,
or via E-Mail to: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org. 
        Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society. 
Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support 
the Back to the Moon bill. For the address and telephone number of the nearest 
chapter to you, please send E-mail, or check the latest issue of Ad Astra, in 
a library near you.
        Finally, if you have requested, and not received, information about
the Back to the Moon bill, please re-send your request. The database for the
bill was recently corrupted, and some information was lost. The authors of the 
bill thank you for your patience.


--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From DavidAndermanofa123fidonetorg
Subject LRDPA news
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 28

        Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the 
Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now This bill also known as the Back to 
the Moon bill would authorize the US 
government to purchase lunar science data from private 
and nonprofit vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding with an 
aggregate cap on bid awards of 65 million 
        If you have a copy of the bill and cant or dont want to go through 
all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislationdont both  you have 
a free resource to evaluate the bill for you Your local congressional office 
listed in the phone bookis staffed by people who can forward a copy of the
bill to legal experts Simply ask them to do so and to consider supporting
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act 
        If you do get feedback negative or positive from your congressional 
office please forward it to David Anderman
3136 E Yorba Linda Blvd Apt G14 Fullerton CA 92631
or via EMail to DavidAndermanofa123fidonetorg 
        Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society 
Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support 
the Back to the Moon bill For the address and telephone number of the nearest 
chapter to you please send Email or check the latest issue of Ad Astra in 
a library near you
        Finally if you have requested and not received information about
the Back to the Moon bill please resend your request The database for the
bill was recently corrupted and some information was lost The authors of the 
bill thank you for your patience


 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 6

>There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center  that might answer 
>your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow 
>up I can dig that out for you.

Keesler, Loftus, Potter, Stansbery, Kubriek....?


after prepro  From wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math  Comp Sci
Lines 6

There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center  that might answer 
your question I do not have his name right now but if you follow 
up I can dig that out for you

Keesler Loftus Potter Stansbery Kubriek


preprocess doc  From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 8

You forget that Apollo was a Government program and had to start 
relatively from scratch. Some people at NASA think that this could work. 
One of them replied to me personally after I posted this original message 
several days ago. I have heard Jerry Pournelle suggest this idea before.

--
  gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

after prepro  From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 8

You forget that Apollo was a Government program and had to start 
relatively from scratch Some people at NASA think that this could work 
One of them replied to me personally after I posted this original message 
several days ago I have heard Jerry Pournelle suggest this idea before


  genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 4

I'm sold!  Where do I sign up?


Brian /-|-\  The next book: "Charles Manson: Lord, Lunatic, or Liar"

after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 4

Im sold  Where do I sign up


Brian \  The next book Charles Manson Lord Lunatic or Liar

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 14

In article <1qlf7gINN8sn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith
Allan Schneider) wrote:
> Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
> adversely affect your own, I guess).

Hehehe, so you say, but this objective morality somehere tells you 
that this is not the case, and you don't know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems...

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Objective morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith
Allan Schneider wrote
 Which type of morality are you talking about  In a natural sense it
 is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
 adversely affect your own I guess

Hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you 
that this is not the case and you dont know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: maverick@wpi.WPI.EDU (T. Giaquinto)
Subject: General Information Request
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu


	I am looking for any information about the space program.
This includes NASA, the shuttles, history, anything!  I would like to
know if anyone could suggest books, periodicals, even ftp sites for a
novice who is interested in the space program.



					Todd Giaquinto
					maverick@wpi.WPI.EDU
					

after prepro  From maverickwpiWPIEDU T Giaquinto
Subject General Information Request
Organization Worcester Polytechnic Institute Worcester MA 016092280
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost wpiwpiedu


	I am looking for any information about the space program
This includes NASA the shuttles history anything  I would like to
know if anyone could suggest books periodicals even ftp sites for a
novice who is interested in the space program



					Todd Giaquinto
					maverickwpiWPIEDU
					

preprocess doc  From: tkelso@afit.af.mil (TS Kelso)
Subject: Two-Line Orbital Element Set:  Space Shuttle
Keywords: Space Shuttle, Orbital Elements, Keplerian
Nntp-Posting-Host: scgraph.afit.af.mil
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines: 21

The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when
possible).  Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system.  As a service to the satellite user community, the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below.  The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using
8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.

Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil
(129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space.

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 93105.58333333  .00090711  00000-0  25599-3 0   249
2 22621  57.0029 144.8669 0004136 304.2989 134.3206 15.92851555  1179
1993 023B  
1 22623U 93 23  B 93103.37312705  .00041032  00000-0  11888-3 0    86
2 22623  57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650  66.5967 15.92653917   803
--
Dr TS Kelso                           Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelso@afit.af.mil                    Air Force Institute of Technology

after prepro  From tkelsoafitafmil TS Kelso
Subject TwoLine Orbital Element Set  Space Shuttle
Keywords Space Shuttle Orbital Elements Keplerian
NntpPostingHost scgraphafitafmil
Organization Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines 21

The most current orbital elements from the NORAD twoline element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS 513 4270674 and are updated daily when
possible  Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system  As a service to the satellite user community the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below  The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 2400 4800 or 9600 bps using
8 data bits 1 stop bit no parity

Element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archiveafitafmil
12992166 in the directory pubspace

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 9310558333333  00090711  000000  255993 0   249
2 22621  570029 1448669 0004136 3042989 1343206 1592851555  1179
1993 023B  
1 22623U 93 23  B 9310337312705  00041032  000000  118883 0    86
2 22623  570000 1551150 0004422 2934650  665967 1592653917   803

Dr TS Kelso                           Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelsoafitafmil                    Air Force Institute of Technology

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Fred and Tom, ad naseum
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 189

>>Nick sez;
I'm not very impressed by the old so-called "prospecting" work from
LPI, it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on
the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there.   [...]

>>Fred replies;
Translation:  It doesn't support the Nick Szabo Vision of the Future
to Which You MUST Subscribe...

>Tom sez;
Fred, we're all supporting what each of us thinks should be done, to some
degree.  If you have a problem with what Nick thinks should be done,
address it, instead of just complaining about his doing so.

>Fred again;
You really don't get what the 'complaints' are about, do you?
  [not incredibly clear explanation of complaints...something between
   feelings regarding Nick's method, and judgments about his meaning]

T
>>Maybe I'd get it if you said what the complaints are about, rather than
>>doing the same things that you mean to complain about.  When you trash
>>people, how am I supposed to read that as 'trashing people is bad'?

F
>Gee, funny that you get it now, then?  Deliberate obtuseness, perhaps?

*** Fred's issue #1;  Nick's alleged trashing of others ***

I only got it when you stopped trashing, and made your point patently,
instead of 'allegorically'.  That was my point all along, Fred.

>>>>Not only
>>>>do you do the same thing on the net (honestly reporting your ideas
>>>>on matters of policy and projects in space), but your response was just
>>>>baiting, not even part of a debate.

>>>I have yet to see Nick enter into anything remotely resembling "a
>>>debate".  I see him flame anyone or anything who disagrees with The
>>>One True Szabo Plan; I see him attacking people, calling them "lazy
>>>bastard" because they had the temerity to disagree with the Almight
>>>Nick; I see him questioning peoples ethics, again because they had the
>>>temerity to disagree with Lord God Szabo.  But debate?  BWAAaaahhhaaaa.

>>I'm glad you can laugh, since your ratio of debate/insult is about the same.

>Not even close, Tommy, and generally only when I'm dealing with
>someone like Nick.

I see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations, not
least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is
and is not debate.  Suffice to say that I disagree with you on that last
point.  Why don't you take a poll, Fred, if you want some psuedo-objective
point-of-view?

And, as usual, you defend your insults with "he started it."  "Yeah, I
took some of his research and called it my own, but he started it."  "So
what if I stole his car, he stole my lawnmower first."  Besides that, I
think it's still open to interpretation whether Nick actually did start it.
So your defense, besides being lame, and contradicting the first part of
the sentence in which it occurs, may not even apply anyway.

Your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool:  "I
never borrowed it, I already gave it back, and it was broken when you
gave it to me."  Make up yer mind, Fred!

>>>>I'm not convinced that people are necessary in all parts of every space-
>>>>based process, and your response doesn't tell me a thing about the
>>>>reasons why you think they should be, except to impune the motives of
>>>>the person with a divergent opinion.

>>>Who said I think they should be, Tommy?  Show me a note where I said
>>>that and I'll eat this terminal.    ****See below, Fred****

>>Fred, I cocluded that you did, since you took issue with it.  The fact
>>that my conclusion was incorrect, i.e. that you were taking issue with
>>something different, is evidence that your communication style is
>>confusing.

>Or evidence that your reading and comprehension style are inadequate.

First, I try to address what I think you meant, for which I am rewarded
with a denial of sorts, and a smart remark.  Then, I point out that I am
not clear what you did mean, rather than risking your childish ire, wrongly
interpreting you a second time, and I'm stupid for it.  I just can't win,
can I, Fred?  You've got a great point here somewhere, it's just that
between stupid people that you must insult, and your jealous guarding of
your valuable opinions, you never actually get around to making it.

>Please quote the 'it' I took issue with.  I believe you will see (if
>you look) that what I was and am taking issue with is Mr Szabo's idea
>that the manned program should be scrapped until such time as his
>toaster-based infrastructure is finished.  All Hail the Szabo Plan!

*** Fred issue #2;  Nick's alleged meaning ***

Too bad the plan only exists in your mind, instead of Nick's, or you
would have a really good point.  Instead you have provided a good reason
to ignore your insults, since they are based on incorrect interpretations
that you have made about others.  Forgive me for giving your insults more
meaning than they ever should have had.

My reading of what Nick actually said is that "people aren't required in
all parts of all space processes", so your taking issue with his opinions
regarding people in the space program, I read as "People are required in
all parts of all space processes."  So, help me out, here, Fred, since I'm
so patently stupid.  Did you read Nick wrong?  Or are you going to eat
your terminal now?  If the latter, I sure hope it's one of those Cheeto and
string models that all the computer mags have been raving about :-)

The point is, _I_ am not stupid because of _your_ incorrect assumption.  I'd
only be stupid if I insulted you for having made it.  But, alas, that's your
job, Fred.

And, finally, your style is confusing, since you tried to make two points,
simultaneously, with an allegory/insult.  Sadly, one point addressed a 'plan'
that only existed in your mind, and the other took issue with behaviors that
you do as much as anyone.

>More deliberate lack of understanding, Tommy?

No, no, I finally got it.  You don't like the plan that Nick's posts made
you imagine.  And you don't like Nick's obnoxious behavior, even though
it's no worse than your own.  Thanks for taking the time with someone as
dense as myself.

>>>>If you have a problem with Nick's delivery, address that.  The way you
>>>>bait, you're perpetuating the lack of discourse that you complain of.

>>>No, Tommy, the 'bait' is that which elicits the response.  *NICK*
>>>'baits'; I just flame him for being an obnoxious fool.

>>I don't really care who started it.  I read this list to get information
>>and other's views on the issues to which it was dedicated, not to be
>>your Mom (He started it!  No, he did!) or to hear about why Nick is a very
>>bad guy.  If you think flaming is bad, stop flaming, or at least get to
>>the point in the first post, instead of explaining yourself all the time.

>That's nice, Tommy.  When you pay me to post to the net you can
>complain about not getting your money's worth.  Perhaps if you weren't
>(deliberately?) too thick to get the point the first time I wouldn't
>have to waste time "explaining [myself] all the time"?

Of course, Socrates.  How could it be otherwise?

>I think it's neat how all this criticism from you started after your
>'fatherly' admonitions to me about how such things should be handled
>outside Usenet were somewhat rebuffed.  Being a little hypocritical,
>Tommy (to go with the immaturity)?  Or is this just the pique of a
>net.ghod wannabe who got turned down by someone he *thought* was new
>(and hence could be 'instructed' -- Tommy, I saw you come on the net).

Who cares who came on the net first?  If you do, consider that you saw
me come on after a brief haitus, before which I was on for about 2 years.
If you had seen me on the net first, you'd remember when Nick and I went
down exactly the same road regarding rude, unneccesary behavior.  It's
just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior that's
no worse than your own.

Let's see here, my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical,
while your flames against people you decide are flamers isn't, and my
complaints about your name-calling are immature, while your name-calling
isn't.  Yeah, right.  Maybe if you called me some more names, I might
see it better, Fred.

"Net.ghod wannabe"?  Naturally, Fred, you've correctly interpreted my
motivations, when yours are impossible to judge from your actions (as
your insulting of people that try, proves).  I didn't really care about
people that fill the net with personal garbage, what I really wanted was to
impress everyone.  I only put my complaints with your behavior on private
mail, not because it belongs there, but because I thought you were such a
jerk that you'd bring it back to the Net, playing right into my hands.
Alas, I had no idea what an intellectual master you were, turning tables and
bringing the history of these posts to the net, for the noble and valuable
purpose of embarassing me.  Whether I should feel stupid because I tried
to make suggestions to such a superior intellect, or becuase I tried to
communicate like an adult with a self-righteous ass, still isn't clear.

Well, Fred, you exposed me.  Now I'll never be able to get a(nother) job
with NASA, since they all know that I'm stupider than Fred McCall.  Well,
I just hope you're happy.  Please leave me alone, now.  I just don't
have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me.  Maybe Nick
or Pat can approach your high standards, but I'm dropping it now.

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Fred and Tom ad naseum
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 189

Nick sez
Im not very impressed by the old socalled prospecting work from
LPI it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on
the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there   []

Fred replies
Translation  It doesnt support the Nick Szabo Vision of the Future
to Which You MUST Subscribe

Tom sez
Fred were all supporting what each of us thinks should be done to some
degree  If you have a problem with what Nick thinks should be done
address it instead of just complaining about his doing so

Fred again
You really dont get what the complaints are about do you
  [not incredibly clear explanation of complaintssomething between
   feelings regarding Nicks method and judgments about his meaning]

T
Maybe Id get it if you said what the complaints are about rather than
doing the same things that you mean to complain about  When you trash
people how am I supposed to read that as trashing people is bad

F
Gee funny that you get it now then  Deliberate obtuseness perhaps

 Freds issue 1  Nicks alleged trashing of others 

I only got it when you stopped trashing and made your point patently
instead of allegorically  That was my point all along Fred

Not only
do you do the same thing on the net honestly reporting your ideas
on matters of policy and projects in space but your response was just
baiting not even part of a debate

I have yet to see Nick enter into anything remotely resembling a
debate  I see him flame anyone or anything who disagrees with The
One True Szabo Plan I see him attacking people calling them lazy
bastard because they had the temerity to disagree with the Almight
Nick I see him questioning peoples ethics again because they had the
temerity to disagree with Lord God Szabo  But debate  BWAAaaahhhaaaa

Im glad you can laugh since your ratio of debateinsult is about the same

Not even close Tommy and generally only when Im dealing with
someone like Nick

I see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations not
least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is
and is not debate  Suffice to say that I disagree with you on that last
point  Why dont you take a poll Fred if you want some psuedoobjective
pointofview

And as usual you defend your insults with he started it  Yeah I
took some of his research and called it my own but he started it  So
what if I stole his car he stole my lawnmower first  Besides that I
think its still open to interpretation whether Nick actually did start it
So your defense besides being lame and contradicting the first part of
the sentence in which it occurs may not even apply anyway

Your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool  I
never borrowed it I already gave it back and it was broken when you
gave it to me  Make up yer mind Fred

Im not convinced that people are necessary in all parts of every space
based process and your response doesnt tell me a thing about the
reasons why you think they should be except to impune the motives of
the person with a divergent opinion

Who said I think they should be Tommy  Show me a note where I said
that and Ill eat this terminal    See below Fred

Fred I cocluded that you did since you took issue with it  The fact
that my conclusion was incorrect ie that you were taking issue with
something different is evidence that your communication style is
confusing

Or evidence that your reading and comprehension style are inadequate

First I try to address what I think you meant for which I am rewarded
with a denial of sorts and a smart remark  Then I point out that I am
not clear what you did mean rather than risking your childish ire wrongly
interpreting you a second time and Im stupid for it  I just cant win
can I Fred  Youve got a great point here somewhere its just that
between stupid people that you must insult and your jealous guarding of
your valuable opinions you never actually get around to making it

Please quote the it I took issue with  I believe you will see if
you look that what I was and am taking issue with is Mr Szabos idea
that the manned program should be scrapped until such time as his
toasterbased infrastructure is finished  All Hail the Szabo Plan

 Fred issue 2  Nicks alleged meaning 

Too bad the plan only exists in your mind instead of Nicks or you
would have a really good point  Instead you have provided a good reason
to ignore your insults since they are based on incorrect interpretations
that you have made about others  Forgive me for giving your insults more
meaning than they ever should have had

My reading of what Nick actually said is that people arent required in
all parts of all space processes so your taking issue with his opinions
regarding people in the space program I read as People are required in
all parts of all space processes  So help me out here Fred since Im
so patently stupid  Did you read Nick wrong  Or are you going to eat
your terminal now  If the latter I sure hope its one of those Cheeto and
string models that all the computer mags have been raving about 

The point is _I_ am not stupid because of _your_ incorrect assumption  Id
only be stupid if I insulted you for having made it  But alas thats your
job Fred

And finally your style is confusing since you tried to make two points
simultaneously with an allegoryinsult  Sadly one point addressed a plan
that only existed in your mind and the other took issue with behaviors that
you do as much as anyone

More deliberate lack of understanding Tommy

No no I finally got it  You dont like the plan that Nicks posts made
you imagine  And you dont like Nicks obnoxious behavior even though
its no worse than your own  Thanks for taking the time with someone as
dense as myself

If you have a problem with Nicks delivery address that  The way you
bait youre perpetuating the lack of discourse that you complain of

No Tommy the bait is that which elicits the response  NICK
baits I just flame him for being an obnoxious fool

I dont really care who started it  I read this list to get information
and others views on the issues to which it was dedicated not to be
your Mom He started it  No he did or to hear about why Nick is a very
bad guy  If you think flaming is bad stop flaming or at least get to
the point in the first post instead of explaining yourself all the time

Thats nice Tommy  When you pay me to post to the net you can
complain about not getting your moneys worth  Perhaps if you werent
deliberately too thick to get the point the first time I wouldnt
have to waste time explaining [myself] all the time

Of course Socrates  How could it be otherwise

I think its neat how all this criticism from you started after your
fatherly admonitions to me about how such things should be handled
outside Usenet were somewhat rebuffed  Being a little hypocritical
Tommy to go with the immaturity  Or is this just the pique of a
netghod wannabe who got turned down by someone he thought was new
and hence could be instructed  Tommy I saw you come on the net

Who cares who came on the net first  If you do consider that you saw
me come on after a brief haitus before which I was on for about 2 years
If you had seen me on the net first youd remember when Nick and I went
down exactly the same road regarding rude unneccesary behavior  Its
just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior thats
no worse than your own

Lets see here my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical
while your flames against people you decide are flamers isnt and my
complaints about your namecalling are immature while your namecalling
isnt  Yeah right  Maybe if you called me some more names I might
see it better Fred

Netghod wannabe  Naturally Fred youve correctly interpreted my
motivations when yours are impossible to judge from your actions as
your insulting of people that try proves  I didnt really care about
people that fill the net with personal garbage what I really wanted was to
impress everyone  I only put my complaints with your behavior on private
mail not because it belongs there but because I thought you were such a
jerk that youd bring it back to the Net playing right into my hands
Alas I had no idea what an intellectual master you were turning tables and
bringing the history of these posts to the net for the noble and valuable
purpose of embarassing me  Whether I should feel stupid because I tried
to make suggestions to such a superior intellect or becuase I tried to
communicate like an adult with a selfrighteous ass still isnt clear

Well Fred you exposed me  Now Ill never be able to get another job
with NASA since they all know that Im stupider than Fred McCall  Well
I just hope youre happy  Please leave me alone now  I just dont
have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me  Maybe Nick
or Pat can approach your high standards but Im dropping it now

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: Re: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 43

In article <1993Apr5.124216.4374@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
>
>I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
>if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population. 

Probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in
emphasis.  Weekends might not be so inviolate (more common to work 7 days
a week in a business), and instead of American Atheists, we would have
similar, religious organizations.  A persons religious belief seems more
as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions.
Of course, people would have to come up with more fascinating 
rationalizations for their actions, but that could be fun to watch...

It seems to me, that for most people, religion in America doesn't matter
that much.  You have extreemists on both ends, but a large majority don't
make too much of an issue about it as long as you don't.  Now, admittedly,
I have never had to suffer the "Bible Belt", but I am just north of it
and see the fringes, and the reasonable people in most things tend to be
reasonable in religion as well.  


>Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
>higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking.  The
>typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
>same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
>other, qualitatively.  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
>somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
>than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
>expresses its own selfishness.
>

I don't bother according a higher value to my thinking, or just about
anybodys thinking.  I don't want to fall in that trap.  Because if you 
do start that, then you are then to decide which is better, says whom,
why, is there a best, and also what to do about those who have inferior
modes of thinking.  IDIC  (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.)
I'll argue it over a soda, but not over much more.

Just my $.12  (What inflation has done...)

M^2



after prepro  From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization University of Wisconsin Madison  Computer Sciences Dept
Lines 43

In article 1993Apr51242164374macccmacalstredu acoopermacccmacalstredu writes

I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population 

Probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in
emphasis  Weekends might not be so inviolate more common to work 7 days
a week in a business and instead of American Atheists we would have
similar religious organizations  A persons religious belief seems more
as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions
Of course people would have to come up with more fascinating 
rationalizations for their actions but that could be fun to watch

It seems to me that for most people religion in America doesnt matter
that much  You have extreemists on both ends but a large majority dont
make too much of an issue about it as long as you dont  Now admittedly
I have never had to suffer the Bible Belt but I am just north of it
and see the fringes and the reasonable people in most things tend to be
reasonable in religion as well  


Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking  The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
other qualitatively  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
expresses its own selfishness


I dont bother according a higher value to my thinking or just about
anybodys thinking  I dont want to fall in that trap  Because if you 
do start that then you are then to decide which is better says whom
why is there a best and also what to do about those who have inferior
modes of thinking  IDIC  Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Ill argue it over a soda but not over much more

Just my 12  What inflation has done

M^2



preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
In-Reply-To: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM's message of Fri, 23 Apr 93 09: 06:09 BST
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
	<1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> <C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
	<19930423.010821.639@almaden.ibm.com>
Lines: 14

>>>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:06:09 BST, nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls) said:
GS> How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
GS> able to accept donations to keep craft operational.

I seem to remember NASA considering this for some of the Apollo
equipment left on the moon, but that they decided against it.

Or maybe not...


--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
InReplyTo nichovnetIBMCOMs message of Fri 23 Apr 93 09 0609 BST
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
	1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet 
	19930423010821639almadenibmcom
Lines 14

 On Fri 23 Apr 93 090609 BST nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls said
GS How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
GS able to accept donations to keep craft operational

I seem to remember NASA considering this for some of the Apollo
equipment left on the moon but that they decided against it

Or maybe not



Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Billboard/Station/Space Dock?
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Seems that the Mile-Long Billboard and any other inflateble space
object/station or what ever have the same problems. (other than being a little
bit different than the "normal" space ideas, such as trusses and shuttles)

But also dag and such.. Why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to
the same topic?

I personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space. But problem. How do you
service it? fly a shuttle/DC-1 to near it and then dismount and "fly" to it?
Or what?? or havign a special docking section for shuttle/DC-1 docking?

Also what if the billboard springs a leak? Self sealing and such??


Just thinking (okay rambling)..

Also why must the now inflated billboard, not be covered in the inside by a
harder substance (such as a polymer or other agent) and then the now "hard"
billboard would be a now giant docking structure/space dock/station??

Or am I missing something here.. (probably am!?)
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject BillboardStationSpace Dock
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

Seems that the MileLong Billboard and any other inflateble space
objectstation or what ever have the same problems other than being a little
bit different than the normal space ideas such as trusses and shuttles

But also dag and such Why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to
the same topic

I personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space But problem How do you
service it fly a shuttleDC1 to near it and then dismount and fly to it
Or what or havign a special docking section for shuttleDC1 docking

Also what if the billboard springs a leak Self sealing and such


Just thinking okay rambling

Also why must the now inflated billboard not be covered in the inside by a
harder substance such as a polymer or other agent and then the now hard
billboard would be a now giant docking structurespace dockstation

Or am I missing something here probably am

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


preprocess doc  From: robink@hparc0.aus.hp.com (Robin Kenny)
Subject: Re: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: HP Australasian Response Centre (Melbourne)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.5]
Lines: 26

David Fuzzy Wells (wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:

: I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
: really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
: Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  

: <BOOM!>  Whooooooooshhhhhh......  <sputter, sputter>

: <okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just a thought... (let's pretend it IS INFLATED and PRESSURIZED) wouldn't
there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture?
If the metalization is behind a clear sandwich (ie. insulated) then the 
deflating balloon would generate electrical interference - "noise"

By the way, any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a "Bugs
Bunny" hole through the wall, highly unlikely to "BOOM", and the fabric
would almost certainly be ripstop.


Regards,  Robin Kenny - a private and personal opinion, not in any way
                        endorsed, authorised or known by my employers.
 ______________________________________________________________________
   What the heck would I know about Space? I'm stuck at the 
   bottom of this huge gravity well!

after prepro  From robinkhparc0aushpcom Robin Kenny
Subject Re Boom  Whoosh
Organization HP Australasian Response Centre Melbourne
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL85]
Lines 26

David Fuzzy Wells wdwellsnyxcsduedu wrote

 I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
 really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  or even better a
 Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec  

   Whooooooooshhhhhh  

 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just a thought lets pretend it IS INFLATED and PRESSURIZED wouldnt
there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture
If the metalization is behind a clear sandwich ie insulated then the 
deflating balloon would generate electrical interference  noise

By the way any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a Bugs
Bunny hole through the wall highly unlikely to BOOM and the fabric
would almost certainly be ripstop


Regards  Robin Kenny  a private and personal opinion not in any way
                        endorsed authorised or known by my employers
 ______________________________________________________________________
   What the heck would I know about Space Im stuck at the 
   bottom of this huge gravity well

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Galileo Update - 04/22/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 84
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from Neal Ausman, Galileo Mission Director

                                 GALILEO
                     MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
                               POST-LAUNCH
                           April 16 - 22, 1993


SPACECRAFT

1.  On April 19, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV), Dust Detector (DDS), and Magnetometer
(MAG) instruments.  Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly.

2.  On April 19, a Command Detector Unit Signal-to-Noise Ratio (CDUSNR) test
and a Radio Frequency Subsystem Automatic Gain Control (RFSAGC) test were
performed using the LGA-1 (Low Gain Antenna #1) over DSS-63 (Madrid 70 meter
antenna) and DSS-61 (Madrid 34 meter antenna), respectively.  Data analysis
is in process.  These tests are periodically performed to provide detailed
information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity.

3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

4.  On April 21, the first of two suppressed carrier/DSN (Deep Space Network)
advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over DSS-14 (Goldstone
70 meter antenna).  The spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees
to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings.

5.  The AC bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change
(greater than 25 DN) throughout this period but the DC bus imbalance
measurement has.  The AC measurement reads 20 DN (4.5 volts).  The DC
measurement has ranged from 43 DN (4.6 volts) to 138 DN (16.2 volts) and
currently reads 138 DN (16.2 volts).  These measurements are consistent with
the model developed by the AC/DC special anomaly team.

6.  The Spacecraft status as of April 22, 1993, is as follows:

       a)  System Power Margin -  68 watts
       b)  Spin Configuration - Dual-Spin
       c)  Spin Rate/Sensor - 3.15rpm/Star Scanner
       d)  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 21 degrees
           off-sun (lagging) and 5 degrees off-earth (leading)
       e)  Downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/LGA-1
       f)  General Thermal Control - all temperatures within
           acceptable range
       g)  RPM Tank Pressures - all within acceptable range
       h)  Orbiter Science- Instruments powered on are the PWS,
           EUV, UVS, EPD, MAG, HIC, and DDS
       i)  Probe/RRH - powered off, temperatures within
           acceptable range
       j)  CMD Loss Timer Setting - 264 hours
           Time To Initiation - 184 hours


TRAJECTORY

     As of noon Thursday, April 22, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows:

	Distance from Earth         169,747,800 km (1.14 AU)
	Distance from Sun           286,967,900 km (1.92 AU)
	Heliocentric Speed          91,200 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       532,735,900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       18 minutes, 58 seconds


SPECIAL TOPIC

1.  As of April 22, 1993, a total of 70185 real-time commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch.  Of these, 65077  were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the real-time command process.
In the past week, one real time command was transmitted: one was initiated in
the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command
process. The only command activity was a command to reset the command loss
timer.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Galileo Update  042293
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 84
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from Neal Ausman Galileo Mission Director

                                 GALILEO
                     MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
                               POSTLAUNCH
                           April 16  22 1993


SPACECRAFT

1  On April 19 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV Dust Detector DDS and Magnetometer
MAG instruments  Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly

2  On April 19 a Command Detector Unit SignaltoNoise Ratio CDUSNR test
and a Radio Frequency Subsystem Automatic Gain Control RFSAGC test were
performed using the LGA1 Low Gain Antenna 1 over DSS63 Madrid 70 meter
antenna and DSS61 Madrid 34 meter antenna respectively  Data analysis
is in process  These tests are periodically performed to provide detailed
information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity

3  On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase

4  On April 21 the first of two suppressed carrierDSN Deep Space Network
advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over DSS14 Goldstone
70 meter antenna  The spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees
to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings

5  The AC bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change
greater than 25 DN throughout this period but the DC bus imbalance
measurement has  The AC measurement reads 20 DN 45 volts  The DC
measurement has ranged from 43 DN 46 volts to 138 DN 162 volts and
currently reads 138 DN 162 volts  These measurements are consistent with
the model developed by the ACDC special anomaly team

6  The Spacecraft status as of April 22 1993 is as follows

       a  System Power Margin   68 watts
       b  Spin Configuration  DualSpin
       c  Spin RateSensor  315rpmStar Scanner
       d  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 21 degrees
           offsun lagging and 5 degrees offearth leading
       e  Downlink telemetry rateantenna 40bpscodedLGA1
       f  General Thermal Control  all temperatures within
           acceptable range
       g  RPM Tank Pressures  all within acceptable range
       h  Orbiter Science Instruments powered on are the PWS
           EUV UVS EPD MAG HIC and DDS
       i  ProbeRRH  powered off temperatures within
           acceptable range
       j  CMD Loss Timer Setting  264 hours
           Time To Initiation  184 hours


TRAJECTORY

     As of noon Thursday April 22 1993 the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows

	Distance from Earth         169747800 km 114 AU
	Distance from Sun           286967900 km 192 AU
	Heliocentric Speed          91200 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       532735900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       18 minutes 58 seconds


SPECIAL TOPIC

1  As of April 22 1993 a total of 70185 realtime commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch  Of these 65077  were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the realtime command process
In the past week one real time command was transmitted one was initiated in
the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command
process The only command activity was a command to reset the command loss
timer
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Portable Small Ground Station?dir
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.185700.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <C4zGAM.2nJ@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr2.214705.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>How difficult would it be to set up your own ground station?
> 
> Ground station for *what*?  At one extreme, some of the amateur-radio
> satellites have sometimes been reachable with hand-held radios.  At the
> other, nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on
> Galileo.  Please be more specific.
> -- 
> All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>                     - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry


SPECIFIC:
Basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do.. Monitor, and
control if need be the Shuttle...

Such as the one in Australia and such....

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Portable Small Ground Stationdir
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51857001
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 In article 1993Apr22147051auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
How difficult would it be to set up your own ground station
 
 Ground station for what  At one extreme some of the amateurradio
 satellites have sometimes been reachable with handheld radios  At the
 other nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on
 Galileo  Please be more specific
  
 All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                      Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry


SPECIFIC
Basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do Monitor and
control if need be the Shuttle

Such as the one in Australia and such


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 23

pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
: You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
: can be blamed solely on Mary.
: 
: So, she's married to Joseph.  She gets knocked up.  What do you think
: ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around?  So Mary comes up
: with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant.  
: 

  Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.

  You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what 
happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.

Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?


after prepro  From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 23

pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
 You know it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
 can be blamed solely on Mary
 
 So shes married to Joseph  She gets knocked up  What do you think
 ol Joe will do if he finds shes been getting around  So Mary comes up
 with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant  
 

  Nice attempt Chris    verrry close

  You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what 
happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it    I
have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus

Dave Buckminster Fuller
How is that one o keeper of the nicknames 


preprocess doc  From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Re: Clementine mission name
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 27

Mark Prado
  
>Please go just one step further:
>How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining?
  
Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows:
  
  "In a cavern, in a canyon,
   Excavating for a mine,
   Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
   And his daughter, CLEMENTINE"
  
Chorus:
  "Oh my darling, Oh my darling,
   Oh my darling Clementine.
   You are lost and gone forever,
   Oh my darling Clementine."
  
 I've also had it explained (but not confirmed from a reliable data
source) that CLEMENTINE is an acronym.  Something like Combined
Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial
Intercept Near Earth.  Personally, I think that acronym was made up
to fit the name (if it really is an acronym).
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                           Space Technology Investor

--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Re Clementine mission name
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 27

Mark Prado
  
Please go just one step further
How has the word Clementine been associated with mining
  
Old pioneer song from the 1850s or so goes as follows
  
  In a cavern in a canyon
   Excavating for a mine
   Dwelt a miner fortyniner
   And his daughter CLEMENTINE
  
Chorus
  Oh my darling Oh my darling
   Oh my darling Clementine
   You are lost and gone forever
   Oh my darling Clementine
  
 Ive also had it explained but not confirmed from a reliable data
source that CLEMENTINE is an acronym  Something like Combined
Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial
Intercept Near Earth  Personally I think that acronym was made up
to fit the name if it really is an acronym
 
 Wales Larrison                           Space Technology Investor

 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: First Spacewalk
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 14

In article <C5suMG.2rF.1@cs.cmu.edu> flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:
>At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
>(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
>
>Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
>
>Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?

This claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into
the footage of the actual spacewalk.

Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL

after prepro  From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re First Spacewalk
Organization Motorola
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 14

In article  flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
Alexei Leonov  was a staged fake

Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged 

Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination 

This claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into
the footage of the actual spacewalk

Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL

preprocess doc  From: wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Subject: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 22


And one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project (Dr. Ron
Humble, Univ. Colorado at Colorado Springs).

I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  

<BOOM!>  Whooooooooshhhhhh......  <sputter, sputter>

<okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>

I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics. 

						Fuzzy.
===============================================================================
_ __/|       | Lt. David "Fuzzy" Wells |     "I want peace on earth,
\'o.O'       |    HQ AFSPACECOM/CNA    |       goodwill toward men." 
=(___)=      |      "We do debris"     |"We're the government. We don't do that 
   U  ...ack!| wdwells@esprit.uccs.edu | that sort of thing."     -SNEAKERS 
===============================================================================

after prepro  From wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells
Subject Boom  Whoosh
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math  Comp Sci
Lines 22


And one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project Dr Ron
Humble Univ Colorado at Colorado Springs

I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  or even better a
Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec  

  Whooooooooshhhhhh  


I hear  that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics 

						Fuzzy

_ __        Lt David Fuzzy Wells      I want peace on earth
\oO           HQ AFSPACECOMCNA           goodwill toward men 
___            We do debris     Were the government We dont do that 
   U  ack wdwellsesprituccsedu  that sort of thing     SNEAKERS 


preprocess doc  From: bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines: 138
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: thnext.mit.edu

In article <16BA8C4AC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>  
I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
> In article <1pq47tINN8lp@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
> bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton) writes:
>  
> (Deletion)
> >
> >I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
> >does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement
> >that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't
> >know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
> >(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than
> >saying I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the 
> >position, even after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires 
> >faith.
> >
>  
> No it in the way it is usually used. In my view, you are saying here 
> that driving a car requires faith that the car drives.
>  

I'm not saying this at all - it requires no faith on my part to
say the car drives because I've seen it drive - I've done more
than at in fact - I've actually driven it. (now what does require
some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation
of what's out there....) But there is NO evidence - pro or con -
for the existence or non-existence of God (see what I have to
say below on this).

> For me it is a conclusion, and I have no more faith in it than I 
> have in the premises and the argument used.
>  

Sorry if I remain skeptical - I don't believe it's entirely a
conclusion. That you have seen no evidence that there IS a God
is correct - neither have I. But lack of evidence for the existence 
of something is in NO WAY evidence for the non-existence of something 
(the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they 
disprove evolution the establish creation). You (personally) have never 
seen a neutrino before, but they exist. The "pink unicorn" analogy breaks
down and is rather naive. I have a scientific theory that explains the 
appearance of animal life - evolution. When I draw the conclusion that 
"pink unicorns" don't exist because I haven't seen them, this conclusion
has it's foundation in observation and theory. A "pink unicorn", if
it did exist, would be qualitatively similar to other known entities.
That is to say, since there is good evidence that all life on earth has
evolved from "more primitive" ancestors these pink unicorns would share 
a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such. God, however,
has no such correspondence with anything (IMO). There is no physical
frame work of observation to draw ANY conclusions FROM. 



> >But first let me say the following.
> >We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
> >"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
> >To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
> >being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
> >exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
> >to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
> >I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
> >being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
> >statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
> >in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
> >'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
> >I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
> >God".
> >
>  
> No, that's a word game. 

I disagree with you profoundly on this. I haven't defined God as
existence - in fact, I haven't defined God. But this might be
getting off the subject - although if you think it's relevant
we can come back to it. 

>  
> Further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is
> already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are 
> implying more with it, in which case your definition and your argument 
> so far are incomplete, making it a fallacy.
>  

You are using wrong categories here - or perhaps you misunderstand
what I'm saying. I'm making no argument what so ever and offering no
definition so there is no fallacy. I'm not trying to convince you of
anything. *I* Believe - and that rests upon Faith. And it is inappropriate
to apply the category of logic in this realm (unless someone tells you
that they can logically prove God or that they have "evidence" or ...,
then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary).

BTW, an incomplete argument is not a fallacy - some things are not
EVEN wrong. 

>  
> (Deletion)
> >One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
> >that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
> >"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
> >you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
> >are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief.
> (Deletion)
>  
> Where does that follow? Aren't observations based on the assumption
> that something exists?
>  

I don't follow you here. Certainly one can make observations of
things that they didn't know existed. I still maintain that one
cannot use observation to infer that "God does not exist". Such
a positive assertion requires a leap.  



> And wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
> "god is" is meaningful. If not, I would reject that concept anyway.
>  
> So, where is your evidence for that "god is" is meaningful at some 
> level?

Once again you seem to completely misunderstand me. I have no
EVIDENCE that "'god is' is meaningful" at ANY level. Maybe such
a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so
many people try to run their own private conception of God down
your throat. I, however, am not doing this. I am arguing one, and
only one, thing - that to make a positive assertion about something
for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against
requires a leap - it requires faith. I am, as you would say, a
"theist"; however, there is a form of atheism that I can respect -
but it must be founded upon honesty. 



>    Benedikt

--
bob singleton
bobs@thnext.mit.edu

after prepro  From bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines 138
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost thnextmitedu

In article 16BA8C4ACI3150101dbstu1rztubsde  
I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
 In article 1pq47tINN8lpsenatorbedfellowMITEDU
 bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton writes
  
 Deletion
 
 I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
 does rest upon faith  that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement
 that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont
 know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
 weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than
 saying I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the 
 position even after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires 
 faith
 
  
 No it in the way it is usually used In my view you are saying here 
 that driving a car requires faith that the car drives
  

Im not saying this at all  it requires no faith on my part to
say the car drives because Ive seen it drive  Ive done more
than at in fact  Ive actually driven it now what does require
some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation
of whats out there But there is NO evidence  pro or con 
for the existence or nonexistence of God see what I have to
say below on this

 For me it is a conclusion and I have no more faith in it than I 
 have in the premises and the argument used
  

Sorry if I remain skeptical  I dont believe its entirely a
conclusion That you have seen no evidence that there IS a God
is correct  neither have I But lack of evidence for the existence 
of something is in NO WAY evidence for the nonexistence of something 
the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they 
disprove evolution the establish creation You personally have never 
seen a neutrino before but they exist The pink unicorn analogy breaks
down and is rather naive I have a scientific theory that explains the 
appearance of animal life  evolution When I draw the conclusion that 
pink unicorns dont exist because I havent seen them this conclusion
has its foundation in observation and theory A pink unicorn if
it did exist would be qualitatively similar to other known entities
That is to say since there is good evidence that all life on earth has
evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share 
a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such God however
has no such correspondence with anything IMO There is no physical
frame work of observation to draw ANY conclusions FROM 



 But first let me say the following
 We might have a language problem here  in regards to faith and
 existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
 To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
 being  God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
 exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
 to debate the so called existence of God  and that is not what
 Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
 being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
 statement  but we obviously mean two different things by it However
 in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
 usual sense  and this is the sense that I think you are using it
 I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
 God
 
  
 No thats a word game 

I disagree with you profoundly on this I havent defined God as
existence  in fact I havent defined God But this might be
getting off the subject  although if you think its relevant
we can come back to it 

  
 Further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is
 already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are 
 implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument 
 so far are incomplete making it a fallacy
  

You are using wrong categories here  or perhaps you misunderstand
what Im saying Im making no argument what so ever and offering no
definition so there is no fallacy Im not trying to convince you of
anything I Believe  and that rests upon Faith And it is inappropriate
to apply the category of logic in this realm unless someone tells you
that they can logically prove God or that they have evidence or 
then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary

BTW an incomplete argument is not a fallacy  some things are not
EVEN wrong 

  
 Deletion
 One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
 that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
 based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
 you refering to There are NO observations  pro or con  that
 are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief
 Deletion
  
 Where does that follow Arent observations based on the assumption
 that something exists
  

I dont follow you here Certainly one can make observations of
things that they didnt know existed I still maintain that one
cannot use observation to infer that God does not exist Such
a positive assertion requires a leap  



 And wouldnt you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
 god is is meaningful If not I would reject that concept anyway
  
 So where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some 
 level

Once again you seem to completely misunderstand me I have no
EVIDENCE that god is is meaningful at ANY level Maybe such
a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so
many people try to run their own private conception of God down
your throat I however am not doing this I am arguing one and
only one thing  that to make a positive assertion about something
for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against
requires a leap  it requires faith I am as you would say a
theist however there is a form of atheism that I can respect 
but it must be founded upon honesty 



    Benedikt


bob singleton
bobsthnextmitedu

preprocess doc  From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com

In article <65882@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
}>For several years I've periodically asked Charley Wingate to explain this
}>mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically
}>when he pops up every few months.  His reluctance to explain indicates to me
}>that it's not so hot.
}
}I've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you
}might have caught on by now.  And there is no "alternative", but the point
}is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either.  The problems of metaphysical
}and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or I should say, humans cannot
}solve them.

If there is truly no alternative, then you have no basis whatsoever
for your claim.  The usual line here, which you call "a prejudgment of
atheism", and dispute, is that reason is all we have.  Here you admit
that you have no alternative, no possible basis for the claim that
there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in
religious knowledge, except possibly that reason conflicts with
"religious knowledge".

This sounds very much like "I can't provide a rational defense for my
belief, but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it
may be false".  I hope it makes you happy, but your repeated and
unfounded assertions to this effect don't advance your cause.
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

after prepro  From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom

In article 65882mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
For several years Ive periodically asked Charley Wingate to explain this
mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically
when he pops up every few months  His reluctance to explain indicates to me
that its not so hot

Ive said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you
might have caught on by now  And there is no alternative but the point
is rationality isnt an alternative either  The problems of metaphysical
and religious knowledge are unsolvable or I should say humans cannot
solve them

If there is truly no alternative then you have no basis whatsoever
for your claim  The usual line here which you call a prejudgment of
atheism and dispute is that reason is all we have  Here you admit
that you have no alternative no possible basis for the claim that
there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in
religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with
religious knowledge

This sounds very much like I cant provide a rational defense for my
belief but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it
may be false  I hope it makes you happy but your repeated and
unfounded assertions to this effect dont advance your cause
 
Jim Perry   perrydsinccom   Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions  For a nominal fee they can be yours

preprocess doc  From: schlegel@cwis.unomaha.edu (Mark Schlegel)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 86

timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:

>	Atheism denies the existence of God.  This is logically bankrupt --
>where is the proof of this nonexistence?  It's a joke.

 This is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism, i.e. the 
 belief that you can't deny anything that you can't prove doesn't exist.
 This is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are
 conceivable but not observed to exist, does this mean that we would have
 to believe in all of them?  According to the above poster, we must believe
 in objects or beings that haven't been proved not to exist so why stop at
 God?   (there could be a huge number of beings identical to Ronald Reagan
 except for trivial differences, say one is missing a finger, one has blond
 hair,... and they all live  on other planets so we can't see them)  The 
 reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians
 have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of God.

>Fine, but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of
>a God?  Here again is a classic atheist fallacy.

 How did they shoot themselves in the foot?

>	Radical Muslims, the Crusades, the Inquisition are common examples that
>atheists like to bring up as marks against religion.  How weak!  Only fools can
>take that drivel seriously.  How about the grand-daddy of all human atrocities,
>the Stalinist movement?
>	Twenty eight MILLION people _killed_ under this leadership, which
>proudly featured atheism.

  There is a big difference here, Stalin didn't say that he stood for a 
  particular moral position (i.e. against murder and terrorism, etc.) and
  then did the opposite (like the religious movements), he was at least
  an honest killer.  (This is NOT a support of Stalin but an attack on this
  viewpoint).  Saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because
  one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic, look at all the
  russians that helped Stalin that weren't atheists - don't they contradict
  your point?  Besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant
  to his murdering people, this is just the common assumption that atheists
  can't value life as much as theists (which you didn't support).  

>	Agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable.  Yet
>they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of God
>is unknowable.  This in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is,
>though it's less arrogant and pompous.

 Ah, and here's another point you didn't get out of the FAQ.  An atheist
 doesn't have to hold the positive view that god doesn't exist, he/she may
 just have the non-existence of the positive belief.  Here's the example:
 
 Strong atheism - "I believe god does not exist"   a positive belief

 Weak atheism   - "I don't believe in a god"       a negative belief
 
 these are NOT the same, some one that has never thought of the idea of
 god in their whole life is technically an atheist, but not the kind that
 you are calling unreasonable.  Or let's look at it this way (in sets)
 
 suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that I will represent
 as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas
 exist as real objects or not.  So if S = santa, then E(S)= no is the person
 not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa.  But notice that
 even E(S) = no  is itself another idea!  This means you have lots of cases:
 
 christian :  (A,E(A)=yes,B,E(B)=no,  . . . G,E(G)=yes......) where G = god
 
 atheist (strong) : (A,E(A). . . . .G,E(G)=no)
 
 atheist (weak) : (A,.....E)     i.e. no G at all in the set
 
 agnostic :  (A,.......G, E(G) = indeterminate, E', ....) 


>	Why are people so afraid to say "undecided"?  It must just be another
>feature of human nature -- "undecided" is not a sexy, trendy, or glamorous
>word.  It does not inspire much hate or conflict.  It's not blasphemous.
>It's not political.  In fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated.

 Nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not
  will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always 
  prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival
  trait, evolution has drilled it in us to take positions, even false ones.


>Bake Timmons, III

M.S.

after prepro  From schlegelcwisunomahaedu Mark Schlegel
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines 86

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes

	Atheism denies the existence of God  This is logically bankrupt 
where is the proof of this nonexistence  Its a joke

 This is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism ie the 
 belief that you cant deny anything that you cant prove doesnt exist
 This is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are
 conceivable but not observed to exist does this mean that we would have
 to believe in all of them  According to the above poster we must believe
 in objects or beings that havent been proved not to exist so why stop at
 God   there could be a huge number of beings identical to Ronald Reagan
 except for trivial differences say one is missing a finger one has blond
 hair and they all live  on other planets so we cant see them  The 
 reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians
 have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of God

Fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of
a God  Here again is a classic atheist fallacy

 How did they shoot themselves in the foot

	Radical Muslims the Crusades the Inquisition are common examples that
atheists like to bring up as marks against religion  How weak  Only fools can
take that drivel seriously  How about the granddaddy of all human atrocities
the Stalinist movement
	Twenty eight MILLION people _killed_ under this leadership which
proudly featured atheism

  There is a big difference here Stalin didnt say that he stood for a 
  particular moral position ie against murder and terrorism etc and
  then did the opposite like the religious movements he was at least
  an honest killer  This is NOT a support of Stalin but an attack on this
  viewpoint  Saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because
  one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic look at all the
  russians that helped Stalin that werent atheists  dont they contradict
  your point  Besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant
  to his murdering people this is just the common assumption that atheists
  cant value life as much as theists which you didnt support  

	Agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable  Yet
they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of God
is unknowable  This in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is
though its less arrogant and pompous

 Ah and heres another point you didnt get out of the FAQ  An atheist
 doesnt have to hold the positive view that god doesnt exist heshe may
 just have the nonexistence of the positive belief  Heres the example
 
 Strong atheism  I believe god does not exist   a positive belief

 Weak atheism    I dont believe in a god       a negative belief
 
 these are NOT the same some one that has never thought of the idea of
 god in their whole life is technically an atheist but not the kind that
 you are calling unreasonable  Or lets look at it this way in sets
 
 suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that I will represent
 as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas
 exist as real objects or not  So if S  santa then ES no is the person
 not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa  But notice that
 even ES  no  is itself another idea  This means you have lots of cases
 
 christian   AEAyesBEBno     GEGyes where G  god
 
 atheist strong  AEA    GEGno
 
 atheist weak  AE     ie no G at all in the set
 
 agnostic   AG EG  indeterminate E  


	Why are people so afraid to say undecided  It must just be another
feature of human nature  undecided is not a sexy trendy or glamorous
word  It does not inspire much hate or conflict  Its not blasphemous
Its not political  In fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated

 Nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not
  will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always 
  prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival
  trait evolution has drilled it in us to take positions even false ones


Bake Timmons III

MS

preprocess doc  From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
In-Reply-To: gene@theporch.raider.net's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 19:29:40 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 32

In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net> gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:

   Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
   who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
   year. 

And with $1B on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment! 

"Oh Dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of ACME's base and they
all died.  How sad.  Gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents."

"Quick Boss, the slime from YoyoDyne are back, and this time they've
got a tank!  Man the guns!"

One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment.....

Greg.

(I'm kidding, BTW, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness
military procurement programs.  And $1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition.)


--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knox's 386 is slick.            Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
   Knox's box is very quick.       Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)

after prepro  From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
InReplyTo genetheporchraidernets message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 192940 GMT
NntpPostingHost leogw
Organization Burdett Buckeridge  Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 32

In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes

   Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
   who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
   year 

And with 1B on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment 

Oh Dear my freighter just landed on the roof of ACMEs base and they
all died  How sad  Gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents

Quick Boss the slime from YoyoDyne are back and this time theyve
got a tank  Man the guns

One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment

Greg

Im kidding BTW although the problem of winnertakesall prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour  witness
military procurement programs  And 1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition



Gregory Bond  Burdett Buckeridge  Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knoxs 386 is slick            Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
   Knoxs box is very quick       Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin

preprocess doc  From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: Cosmos 2238
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 11

I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993-
018B) as possible. Both its purpose, launch date, location, in short,
EVERYTHING! Can you help?

-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
              Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).

   (WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min

after prepro  From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject Cosmos 2238
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 11

I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment 1993
018B as possible Both its purpose launch date location in short
EVERYTHING Can you help

Tony Ryan Astronomy  Space new International magazine available from
              Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress

   WORLDS LARGEST ASTRO SOC per capita  unless you know better 0033
Tel 0891881950 UKNIreland 1550111442 Eire Cost up to 48p per min

preprocess doc  From: rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross  Borden)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: ugl-gw.uvic.ca
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Lines: 33

In article <1qjs1j$306@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>
>
>In the old days,  their used to be Arbitron stats'  that analyzed
>the readership and posting volumes  by group  and user.
>
>They were available from UUNET.   That's how you check the
>readership of Sci.space,  not some stupid  unscientific attempt
>to  flood the newsgroup.
>
>I have abetter idea.  WHy don't we all reply directly to the
>origanator  of this post,  and tell him we read sci.space ;-)
>
>
>pat

	Sigh.
	I try to make a little joke, I try to inject some humour here
and what happens?  In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn:

	"I say, that was a _joke_, son."

	I thought that the bit about McElwaine, not to mention the two
smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING.
	Sigh.
	(And will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat)
*please* stop sending me email.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  I shot a man just to watch him die;    |     Ross Borden                   |
|  I'm going to Disneyland!               |     rborden@ra.uvic.ca            |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross  Borden
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost uglgwuvicca
Organization University of Victoria Victoria BC Canada
Lines 33

In article 1qjs1j306accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes


In the old days  their used to be Arbitron stats  that analyzed
the readership and posting volumes  by group  and user

They were available from UUNET   Thats how you check the
readership of Scispace  not some stupid  unscientific attempt
to  flood the newsgroup

I have abetter idea  WHy dont we all reply directly to the
origanator  of this post  and tell him we read scispace 


pat

	Sigh
	I try to make a little joke I try to inject some humour here
and what happens  In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn

	I say that was a _joke_ son

	I thought that the bit about McElwaine not to mention the two
smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING
	Sigh
	And will everyone who pats suggestion thanks bunches pat
please stop sending me email


  I shot a man just to watch him die         Ross Borden                   
  Im going to Disneyland                    rbordenrauvicca            


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <930404.111651.1K0.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr2.065230.18676@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
|> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|> >The "automobile system" kills non-driving passengers, not to mention
|> >pedestrians.  You need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one.
|> 
|> Indeed, and it kills far more than a system of public transport would.  I am
|> therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with
|> trains, buses, taxis, bicycles, and so on.

Seconded.   I cycle to work each day, and if we could just get
those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road, it
would be a lot more fun.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  mathewmantiscouk mathew writes
 In article 1993Apr206523018676blazecsjhuedu
 arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
 The automobile system kills nondriving passengers not to mention
 pedestrians  You need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one
 
 Indeed and it kills far more than a system of public transport would  I am
 therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with
 trains buses taxis bicycles and so on

Seconded   I cycle to work each day and if we could just get
those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road it
would be a lot more fun

jon

preprocess doc  From:  (Rashid)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 76

In article <1993Apr14.131032.15644@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> 
> It is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema
> [Islamic scholars] that Islamic law applies only in an Islamic country,
> of which the UK is not.  Furthermore, to take the law into one's own
> hands is a criminal act, as these are matters for the state, not for
> individuals.  Nevertheless, Khomeini offered a cash prize for people to
> take the law into their own hands -- something which, to my
> understanding, is against Islamic law.

Yes, this is also my understanding of the majority of Islamic laws.
However, I believe there are also certain legal rulings which, in all
five schools of law (4 sunni and 1 jaffari), can be levelled against
muslim or non-muslims, both within and outside dar-al-islam. I do
not know if apostasy (when accompanied by active, persistent, and
open hostility to Islam) falls into this category of the law. I do know
that
historically, apostasy has very rarely been punished at all, let alone
by the death penalty.

My understanding is that Khomeini's ruling was not based on the
law of apostasy (alone). It was well known that Rushdie was an apostate
long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no
precedent in the Qur'an, hadith, or in Islamic history for indiscriminantly
levelling death penalties for apostasy.

I believe the charge levelled against Rushdie was that of "fasad". This
ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an
Islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals. The reward was
not offered by Khomeini but by individuals within Iran.


> Stuff deleted
> Also, I think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that
> Khomeini's fatwa was issued due to the _distribution_ of the book.  My
> understanding is that Khomeini's fatwa was issued in response to the
> _writing_ and _publishing_ of the book.  If my view is correct, then
> your viewpoint that Rushdie was sentenced for a "crime in progress" is
> incorrect.
> 
I would concur that the thrust of the fatwa (from what I remember) was
levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication
of the book. However, the charge of "fasad" can encompass a
number of lesser charges. I remember that when diplomatic relations
broke off between Britain and Iran over the fatwa - Iran stressed that
the condemnation of the author, and the removal of the book from
circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the
"crisis". But you are correct to point out that banning the book was not
the main thrust behind the fatwa. Islamic charges such as fasad are
levelled at people, not books.

The Rushdie situation was followed in Iran for several months before the
issuance of the fatwa. Rushdie went on a media blitz,
presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of
secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people
crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred. 
Fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost
his image and push the book, he was everywhere in the media. Then
Muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while
protesting against the book. Rushdie appeared momentarily
concerned, then climbed back on his media horse to once again
attack the Muslims and defend his sacred rights. It was at this
point that the fatwa on "fasad" was issued.

The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie - any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling. The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well. The
crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being
played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media.

P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the "fasad" ruling.

after prepro  From  Rashid
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 76

In article 1993Apr1413103215644monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
 
 It is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema
 [Islamic scholars] that Islamic law applies only in an Islamic country
 of which the UK is not  Furthermore to take the law into ones own
 hands is a criminal act as these are matters for the state not for
 individuals  Nevertheless Khomeini offered a cash prize for people to
 take the law into their own hands  something which to my
 understanding is against Islamic law

Yes this is also my understanding of the majority of Islamic laws
However I believe there are also certain legal rulings which in all
five schools of law 4 sunni and 1 jaffari can be levelled against
muslim or nonmuslims both within and outside daralislam I do
not know if apostasy when accompanied by active persistent and
open hostility to Islam falls into this category of the law I do know
that
historically apostasy has very rarely been punished at all let alone
by the death penalty

My understanding is that Khomeinis ruling was not based on the
law of apostasy alone It was well known that Rushdie was an apostate
long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no
precedent in the Quran hadith or in Islamic history for indiscriminantly
levelling death penalties for apostasy

I believe the charge levelled against Rushdie was that of fasad This
ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an
Islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals The reward was
not offered by Khomeini but by individuals within Iran


 Stuff deleted
 Also I think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that
 Khomeinis fatwa was issued due to the _distribution_ of the book  My
 understanding is that Khomeinis fatwa was issued in response to the
 _writing_ and _publishing_ of the book  If my view is correct then
 your viewpoint that Rushdie was sentenced for a crime in progress is
 incorrect
 
I would concur that the thrust of the fatwa from what I remember was
levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication
of the book However the charge of fasad can encompass a
number of lesser charges I remember that when diplomatic relations
broke off between Britain and Iran over the fatwa  Iran stressed that
the condemnation of the author and the removal of the book from
circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the
crisis But you are correct to point out that banning the book was not
the main thrust behind the fatwa Islamic charges such as fasad are
levelled at people not books

The Rushdie situation was followed in Iran for several months before the
issuance of the fatwa Rushdie went on a media blitz
presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of
secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people
crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred 
Fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost
his image and push the book he was everywhere in the media Then
Muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while
protesting against the book Rushdie appeared momentarily
concerned then climbed back on his media horse to once again
attack the Muslims and defend his sacred rights It was at this
point that the fatwa on fasad was issued

The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie  any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well The
crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being
played out and played up in the the full view of the media

PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling

preprocess doc  From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Origins of the bible.
Lines: 56

In article <1993Apr19.141112.15018@cs.nott.ac.uk>, eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with
> a theist acquaintance.  He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered
> at a certain point in time which were syllable-perfect.  This therefore
> meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time; the time quoted
> by my acquaintace was approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus.

Hi Adda,

Most Bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain
time -- the time when the author wrote it.  Unfortunately, like all works
from this time period and earlier, all that exists today are copies. 

> 
> Cutting all of the crap out of the way (ie god wrote it) could anyone answer
> the following:
> 
> 1.  How old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament?

There are parts of books, scraps really, that date from around the
mid second century (A.D. 130+).  There are some complete books, letters,
etc. from the middle third century.  The first complete collection of
the New Testament dates from the early 4th century (A.D. 325).  Throughout
this period are writings of various early church fathers/leaders who
quoted various scriptures in their writings.

> 2.  Is there any truth in my acquaintance's statements?

If you mean that someone discovered thousands of "Bibles" which were all
perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st century...No!

If you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts (within the
dates given above, but not letter perfect) and that the most probable
text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest
original autographs (now lost) probably were written starting sometime
shortly after A.D. 50, then yes.

> 3.  From who/where did the bible originate?

From the original authors.  We call them Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter,
Paul, James, and one other not identified.

> 4.  How long is a piece of string? ;-)

As long as you make it.

> 
> Adda
> 
> -- 

Regards,

Jim B.

after prepro  From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Origins of the bible
Lines 56

In article 1993Apr1914111215018csnottacuk eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright writes
 Hi
 
 I have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with
 a theist acquaintance  He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered
 at a certain point in time which were syllableperfect  This therefore
 meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted
 by my acquaintace was approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus

Hi Adda

Most Bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain
time  the time when the author wrote it  Unfortunately like all works
from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies 

 
 Cutting all of the crap out of the way ie god wrote it could anyone answer
 the following
 
 1  How old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament

There are parts of books scraps really that date from around the
mid second century AD 130  There are some complete books letters
etc from the middle third century  The first complete collection of
the New Testament dates from the early 4th century AD 325  Throughout
this period are writings of various early church fathersleaders who
quoted various scriptures in their writings

 2  Is there any truth in my acquaintances statements

If you mean that someone discovered thousands of Bibles which were all
perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st centuryNo

If you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts within the
dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable
text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest
original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime
shortly after AD 50 then yes

 3  From whowhere did the bible originate

From the original authors  We call them Matthew Mark Luke John Peter
Paul James and one other not identified

 4  How long is a piece of string 

As long as you make it

 
 Adda
 
  

Regards

Jim B

preprocess doc  From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Atlas revisited
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: sci
Lines: 8

  I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to
maintain tank geometry....leads me to the question: ? have any 
of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the
launch configuration would be significantly different from the
reentry one?  I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures
as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others, a "ballon" tank
SSTO sounds very clever. 


after prepro  From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Atlas revisited
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Distribution sci
Lines 8

  I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to
maintain tank geometryleads me to the question  have any 
of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the
launch configuration would be significantly different from the
reentry one  I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures
as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others a ballon tank
SSTO sounds very clever 


preprocess doc  From:  (Rashid)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 31

In article <1993Apr14.121134.12187@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> 
> >In article <C5C7Cn.5GB@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
Stuff deleted
> >>What we should be demanding, is for Khomeini and his ilk to publicly
> >>come clean and to show their proof that Islamic Law punishes
> >>apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of
> >>coversion of freedom of conscience.

All five schools of law (to the best of my knowledge) support the
death sentence for apostasy WHEN it is accompanied by open, persistent,
and aggravated hostility to Islam. Otherwise
I agree, there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief.
The Qur'an makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience. Public
or private disavowal of Islam or conversion to another faith is not
punishable (there are some jurists who have gone against this
trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable (even by death) - but
historically they are the exception.

Cursing and Insulting the Prophets falls under the category of "Shatim".

> 
> I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeini's fatwa etc.
>Lots of stuff deleted<
> 
> And, according to the above analysis, it looks like Khomeini's offering
> of a reward for Rushdie's death in fact constitutes a criminal act
> according to Islamic law.

Please see my post under "Re: Yet more Rushdie (ISLAMIC LAW)".

after prepro  From  Rashid
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 31

In article 1993Apr1412113412187monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
 
 In article  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
Stuff deleted
 What we should be demanding is for Khomeini and his ilk to publicly
 come clean and to show their proof that Islamic Law punishes
 apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of
 coversion of freedom of conscience

All five schools of law to the best of my knowledge support the
death sentence for apostasy WHEN it is accompanied by open persistent
and aggravated hostility to Islam Otherwise
I agree there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief
The Quran makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience Public
or private disavowal of Islam or conversion to another faith is not
punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this
trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable even by death  but
historically they are the exception

Cursing and Insulting the Prophets falls under the category of Shatim

 
 I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeinis fatwa etc
Lots of stuff deleted
 
 And according to the above analysis it looks like Khomeinis offering
 of a reward for Rushdies death in fact constitutes a criminal act
 according to Islamic law

Please see my post under Re Yet more Rushdie ISLAMIC LAW

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr19.130922.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1993Apr19.144427.17399@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
> Gene Wright (gene@theporch.raider.net) wrote:
> : Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
> : who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
> : Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
> : to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
> 
> I'm an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work, and I
> throw around the $1 billion figure for that "reward."  I suggest that
> you increase the Lunar reward to about $3 billion.
> 
> This would encourage private industry to invest in space, which 
> should be one of NASA's primary goals.
> 
> -- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
>       kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368
> 
>      "Better.  Faster.  Cheaper." -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator


Also would maybe get the Russians Involved. After all they do have the resources
to do it in part.. But they need the capital and the goal..

I wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification?


==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr191309221
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1993Apr1914442717399aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
 Gene Wright genetheporchraidernet wrote
  Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
  who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
  Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
  to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
 
 Im an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work and I
 throw around the 1 billion figure for that reward  I suggest that
 you increase the Lunar reward to about 3 billion
 
 This would encourage private industry to invest in space which 
 should be one of NASAs primary goals
 
  Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
       kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368
 
      Better  Faster  Cheaper  Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator


Also would maybe get the Russians Involved After all they do have the resources
to do it in part But they need the capital and the goal

I wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification



Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: ray@engr.LaTech.edu (Bill Ray)
Subject: Re: The Bible and Abortion
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Lines: 38
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: ee02.engr.latech.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

James J. Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu) wrote:
: Exodus 21:22-25:

:        22 And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with
:           child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further
:           injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may
:           demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.
:        23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint
:           as a penalty life for life,
:        24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
:        25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

: The most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if
: men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry, the penalty
: is only a fine.  If, however, the woman is injured or dies, the
: *lex talionis* doctrine of "an eye for an eye" applies.  This is the
: Jewish interpretation, and is supported by Jewish commentaries on
: these verses.
:    This is quite an embarrassment for pro-lifer Christians, so there is
: of course an alternate explanation.  The alternative interprets the
: word "miscarriage" to mean "premature birth"--i.e., the child is born
: alive--and "further injury" to mean injury to either the woman or
: the fetus.  This is not a straightforward interpretation, it is not
: (so far as I know) supported by any Jewish commentaries, and it does
: not appeared to be supported by any other part of the Bible.

What if any, historical reference do we have to abortion at this time?  Did
the ancient Jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion? (I am
truly asking, not making a point veiled as a question).  If there is 
little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion, it is
not surprising the Bible makes little reference to it, as it makes little
reference to nuclear power and contamination.

While your interpretation is a reasonable one, I see no reason to reject
the other out of hand.  The King Jimmy translation says "if there is no
further mischief."  This does not necessarily imply to the woman.  I know
if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort, we
would feel that a life was truly taken, not simply a process halted.

after prepro  From rayengrLaTechedu Bill Ray
Subject Re The Bible and Abortion
Organization Louisiana Tech University
Lines 38
Distribution worldlocal
NNTPPostingHost ee02engrlatechedu
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]

James J Lippard lippardskybluccitarizonaedu wrote
 Exodus 212225

        22 And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with
           child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further
           injury he shall surely be fined as the womans husband may
           demand of him and he shall pay as the judges decide
        23 But if there is any further injury then you shall appoint
           as a penalty life for life
        24 eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot
        25 burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise

 The most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if
 men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry the penalty
 is only a fine  If however the woman is injured or dies the
 lex talionis doctrine of an eye for an eye applies  This is the
 Jewish interpretation and is supported by Jewish commentaries on
 these verses
    This is quite an embarrassment for prolifer Christians so there is
 of course an alternate explanation  The alternative interprets the
 word miscarriage to mean premature birthie the child is born
 aliveand further injury to mean injury to either the woman or
 the fetus  This is not a straightforward interpretation it is not
 so far as I know supported by any Jewish commentaries and it does
 not appeared to be supported by any other part of the Bible

What if any historical reference do we have to abortion at this time  Did
the ancient Jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion I am
truly asking not making a point veiled as a question  If there is 
little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion it is
not surprising the Bible makes little reference to it as it makes little
reference to nuclear power and contamination

While your interpretation is a reasonable one I see no reason to reject
the other out of hand  The King Jimmy translation says if there is no
further mischief  This does not necessarily imply to the woman  I know
if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort we
would feel that a life was truly taken not simply a process halted

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23

In <sfnNTrC00WBO43LRUK@andrew.cmu.edu> "David R. Sacco" <dsav+@andrew.cmu.edu> 
writes:

>After tons of mail, could we move this discussion to alt.religion?

Yes.

MAC
>=============================================================
>--There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke. (Bob Dylan)
>--"If you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human
>being, you'd be a game show host." (taken from the movie "Heathers.")
>--Lecture (LEK chur) - process by which the notes of the professor
>become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of
>either.
--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23

In  David R Sacco  
writes

After tons of mail could we move this discussion to altreligion

Yes

MAC

There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke Bob Dylan
If you were happy every day of your life you wouldnt be a human
being youd be a game show host taken from the movie Heathers
Lecture LEK chur  process by which the notes of the professor
become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of
either


                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Reply-To: eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright)
Organization: Nottingham University
Lines: 28

In article <healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) writes:
|> I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
|> ve given me.
|> 
|> Tammy


If a person gives a well-balanced reasoned argument, Tammy, then all are
happy to discuss it with him.  If he makes astounding claims, which are not
backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them.
If the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not
supportable then people would have simply ignored him.  He did not.  He
claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed.  His argument was for
christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe
him and his message.  I for one will not take things as read.  If you told me
that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark
side of Jupiter then I would demand evidence!


Adda


-- 
+-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
|  Adda Wainwright        |    Does dim atal y llanw!         8o)         |
|  eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk |   8o)        Mae .sig 'ma ar werth!           |
+-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+


after prepro  From eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
ReplyTo eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright
Organization Nottingham University
Lines 28

In article  healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy writes
 I hope youre not going to flame him  Please give him the same coutesy you
 ve given me
 
 Tammy


If a person gives a wellbalanced reasoned argument Tammy then all are
happy to discuss it with him  If he makes astounding claims which are not
backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them
If the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not
supportable then people would have simply ignored him  He did not  He
claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed  His argument was for
christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe
him and his message  I for one will not take things as read  If you told me
that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark
side of Jupiter then I would demand evidence


Adda


 

  Adda Wainwright            Does dim atal y llanw         8o         
  eczcawmipsnottacuk    8o        Mae sig ma ar werth           



preprocess doc  From: jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz)
Subject: U.S. Space Foundation Speech
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net


                          Speech by Pete Worden
                                    
          Delivered Before the U.S. Space Foundation Conference
                                    
                       Colorado Springs, Colorado
                                    
                             April 15, 1993


     What a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble.  For
providing me this forum I would sincerely like to thank the U.S.
Space Foundation.  My topic today is the Single Stage Rocket
Technology rocket or SSRT.  By I intend to speak of more.  How to
lower the cost and make rapid progress.  SSRT is to my mind --
and I hope to convince you -- the erupting a new rallying cry for
our generation in space -- Faster, Cheaper, and Better.

     Faster, Cheaper, Better and SSRT represent the passing of a
torch from one technical generation to another.  It is a new
thing to be sure -- but it is also a relearning of old things
from past masters.

     When we rolled out the SSRT baby two weeks ago, so called
experts told us it violates the laws of physics -- it made no
sense.  For example, Dr. Eberhart Rachtin - former president of
the Aerospace Corp., said of SSRT in the L.A. Times that it,
"defies the best principles of launching payloads into space." 
Well Dr. Rachtin -- you've made us mad!  What are these
principles that SSRT defies?

     Well I'll tell you.  It violates the principle that you need
a giant program office to build space hardware.  It violates the
"fact" that it takes 20 years to build something new.  And it
violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for
less than many billions of dollars.

     It took some of the last generation's experts to teach us
some new/old lessons.  Werhner Von Braun's first rocket was not a
Saturn V.  General Schriever's ICBM's didn't take ten years to
demonstrate.  And the X-1 airplane didn't cost $1 billion.

     It took one of the great engineers of the 1950's to remind
us of these truths -- Max Hunter.  Max, to remind you, was a
senior engineer in the Thor IRBM program, and old faster, better,
cheaper success story.  Max has been persistent in a vision of a
single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960's. 
Because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps - Build a
little, Test a little.

     Next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration.  We
didn't solicit a bunch of requirements -- they'd just change
every few years anyway.  [ not included in the speech -- The
ALS/NLS has such ephemeral requirements that it would better
known as "Shape Shifter" than "Space Lifter."  We didn't spend a
lot money -- this X-Rocket only cost $60 million.  When's the
last time we even built a new airplane for that?  And it didn't
take a lot of time to build -- McDonnell Douglas completed it in
18 months.  Finally, the government program office consisted of
one very over-worked Air Force Major -- motivated in part by the
threat that he'd get to ride on it in a strapped-on lawn chair if
it ran over cost or schedule.

     As I described what SSRT is -- and isn't keep in mind its
only a first step.  There are several more steps -- and steps
that can easily fail -- before the U.S. can field an SSTO.  But
each step should follow the same principles -- a small management
team -- a few years technology demonstration -- and a modest
budget.

     Let me show a few details on SSRT and how it might evolve:
(See charts)

     I'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's
and 1960's.  They went to the moon - we built a telescope that
can't see straight.  They soft-landed on Mars - the least we
could do is soft-land on Earth!

     But we do have an answer.  We can follow their build a
little, test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable
and routine access to space.  I know there are nay sayers among
you -- those who say SSRT is a stunt.  It needs more thermal
protection, the engines are wrong, it would be better to land
horizontally, etc, etc.

     I say to you -- we'll see you at White Sands in June.  You
bring your view-graphs, and I'll bring my rocketship.  If we do
what we say we can do, then you let us do the next step.  [ not
included in the speech:  If we fail -- you still have your
program offices, staff summary sheets, requirement analyses, and
decade long programs.]

     I bet on my generation and Max Hunter's idea -- Any Takers?

after prepro  From jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz
Subject US Space Foundation Speech
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 94
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet


                          Speech by Pete Worden
                                    
          Delivered Before the US Space Foundation Conference
                                    
                       Colorado Springs Colorado
                                    
                             April 15 1993


     What a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble  For
providing me this forum I would sincerely like to thank the US
Space Foundation  My topic today is the Single Stage Rocket
Technology rocket or SSRT  By I intend to speak of more  How to
lower the cost and make rapid progress  SSRT is to my mind 
and I hope to convince you  the erupting a new rallying cry for
our generation in space  Faster Cheaper and Better

     Faster Cheaper Better and SSRT represent the passing of a
torch from one technical generation to another  It is a new
thing to be sure  but it is also a relearning of old things
from past masters

     When we rolled out the SSRT baby two weeks ago so called
experts told us it violates the laws of physics  it made no
sense  For example Dr Eberhart Rachtin  former president of
the Aerospace Corp said of SSRT in the LA Times that it
defies the best principles of launching payloads into space 
Well Dr Rachtin  youve made us mad  What are these
principles that SSRT defies

     Well Ill tell you  It violates the principle that you need
a giant program office to build space hardware  It violates the
fact that it takes 20 years to build something new  And it
violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for
less than many billions of dollars

     It took some of the last generations experts to teach us
some newold lessons  Werhner Von Brauns first rocket was not a
Saturn V  General Schrievers ICBMs didnt take ten years to
demonstrate  And the X1 airplane didnt cost 1 billion

     It took one of the great engineers of the 1950s to remind
us of these truths  Max Hunter  Max to remind you was a
senior engineer in the Thor IRBM program and old faster better
cheaper success story  Max has been persistent in a vision of a
single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960s 
Because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps  Build a
little Test a little

     Next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration  We
didnt solicit a bunch of requirements  theyd just change
every few years anyway  [ not included in the speech  The
ALSNLS has such ephemeral requirements that it would better
known as Shape Shifter than Space Lifter  We didnt spend a
lot money  this XRocket only cost 60 million  Whens the
last time we even built a new airplane for that  And it didnt
take a lot of time to build  McDonnell Douglas completed it in
18 months  Finally the government program office consisted of
one very overworked Air Force Major  motivated in part by the
threat that hed get to ride on it in a strappedon lawn chair if
it ran over cost or schedule

     As I described what SSRT is  and isnt keep in mind its
only a first step  There are several more steps  and steps
that can easily fail  before the US can field an SSTO  But
each step should follow the same principles  a small management
team  a few years technology demonstration  and a modest
budget

     Let me show a few details on SSRT and how it might evolve
See charts

     Im embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation  the giants of the last great space era the 1950s
and 1960s  They went to the moon  we built a telescope that
cant see straight  They softlanded on Mars  the least we
could do is softland on Earth

     But we do have an answer  We can follow their build a
little test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable
and routine access to space  I know there are nay sayers among
you  those who say SSRT is a stunt  It needs more thermal
protection the engines are wrong it would be better to land
horizontally etc etc

     I say to you  well see you at White Sands in June  You
bring your viewgraphs and Ill bring my rocketship  If we do
what we say we can do then you let us do the next step  [ not
included in the speech  If we fail  you still have your
program offices staff summary sheets requirement analyses and
decade long programs]

     I bet on my generation and Max Hunters idea  Any Takers

preprocess doc  From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Clementine Science Team Selected
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 32

nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:

>In article <stephens.734792933@ngis> stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson) writes:

>   Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was
>   the Astronomer Royal, who was paid [...] from the Department
>   of Ordinance Budget (i.e. the military). Flamsteed House (the original
>   RGO) was built out of Army Surplus Scrap ( A gate house at the Tower of
>   London ?), and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder [...]

>At the time, astronomy was vital to the military, in that navigation
>and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military, and good
>cartography was impossible without good astronomy.

>The relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious.

>Nick

It still applies, except the astronomy these days is Very Long Baseline
Radio Astronomy coupled to GPS and Satellite Laser Ranging. The data
from NASA's and the Naval Observatory's (among others) is a vital 
source of data for studies into crustal dynamics, Earth rotation, and
purturbations. Every time there is a leap second added to the New Year,
remember the military and science are still co-habiting nicely. The
same VLBI was used to track Gallileo as it passed the Earth, and used
so little fuel that it can afford to observe Ida. 
 
--
Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca

after prepro  From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Clementine Science Team Selected
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 32

nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes

In article  stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson writes

   Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was
   the Astronomer Royal who was paid [] from the Department
   of Ordinance Budget ie the military Flamsteed House the original
   RGO was built out of Army Surplus Scrap  A gate house at the Tower of
   London  and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder []

At the time astronomy was vital to the military in that navigation
and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military and good
cartography was impossible without good astronomy

The relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious

Nick

It still applies except the astronomy these days is Very Long Baseline
Radio Astronomy coupled to GPS and Satellite Laser Ranging The data
from NASAs and the Naval Observatorys among others is a vital 
source of data for studies into crustal dynamics Earth rotation and
purturbations Every time there is a leap second added to the New Year
remember the military and science are still cohabiting nicely The
same VLBI was used to track Gallileo as it passed the Earth and used
so little fuel that it can afford to observe Ida 
 

Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



I thought that under emergency conditions,  the STS  can
put down at any good size Airport.  IF it could take a C-5 or a
747, then it can take an orbiter.   You just need a VOR/TAC

I don't know if they need ILS.

pat

ANyone know for sure.

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



I thought that under emergency conditions  the STS  can
put down at any good size Airport  IF it could take a C5 or a
747 then it can take an orbiter   You just need a VORTAC

I dont know if they need ILS

pat

ANyone know for sure

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 44
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>Humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly?    In one thread
>you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
>survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
>being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong.   So
>what does this omniscient being use for a criterion?   The long-
>term survival of the human species, or what?

Well, that's the question, isn't it?  The goals are probably not all that
obvious.  We can set up a few goals, like happiness and liberty and
the golden rule, etc.  But these goals aren't inherent.  They have to
be defined before an objective system is possible.

>How does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign
>"right" and "wrong" to actions?

It is not too difficult, one you have goals in mind, and absolute
knoweldge of everyone's intent, etc.

>>Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me.  This
>>was not part of the original premise.
>Well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time,
>so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the
>difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right"
>and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is. 

Omniscience is fine, as long as information is not given away.  Isn't
this the resolution of the free will problem?  An interactive omniscient
being changes the situation.

>>Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
>>is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
>>adversely affect your own, I guess).
>I'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to
>be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign
>"right" and "wrong" to actions.
>You tell us what type of morality that is.

Well, I was speaking about an objective system in general.  I didn't
mention a specific goal, which would be necessary to determine the
morality of an action.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re Humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly    In one thread
youre telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong   So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion   The long
term survival of the human species or what

Well thats the question isnt it  The goals are probably not all that
obvious  We can set up a few goals like happiness and liberty and
the golden rule etc  But these goals arent inherent  They have to
be defined before an objective system is possible

How does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign
right and wrong to actions

It is not too difficult one you have goals in mind and absolute
knoweldge of everyones intent etc

Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me  This
was not part of the original premise
Well your original premises have a habit of changing over time
so perhaps youd like to review it for us and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right
and wrong to actions and telling us the result is 

Omniscience is fine as long as information is not given away  Isnt
this the resolution of the free will problem  An interactive omniscient
being changes the situation

Which type of morality are you talking about  In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
Im talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign
right and wrong to actions
You tell us what type of morality that is

Well I was speaking about an objective system in general  I didnt
mention a specific goal which would be necessary to determine the
morality of an action

keith

preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Washington Post Article on SSF Redesign
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 52

"Space Station Redesign Leader Says Cost Goal May Be
Impossible"

Today (4/6) the Washington Post ran an article with the
headline shown above. The article starts with "A leader
of the NASA team in charge of redesigning the planned
space station said yesterday the job is tough and may
be impossible." O'Connor is quoted saying whether it is
possible to cut costs that much and still provide for
meaningful research "is a real question for me."
O'Connor said "everything is fair game," including
"dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the
aerospace industry, chopping management of the space
station program at some NASA facilities around the
country, working closely with the Russian space station
Mir, and using unmanned Titan rockets to supplement the
manned space shuttle fleet."

O'Connor says his team has reviewed 30 design options
so far, and they are sorting the serious candidates
into three categories based on cost.

The Post says O'Connor described the design derived
from the current SSF as a high cost option (I believe
Kathy Sawyer, the Post writer, got confused here. I
listened in on part of O'Connor's briefing to the press
on Monday, and in one part of the briefing O'Connor
talked about how the White House wants three options,
sorted by cost [low, medium, and high]. In another part
of the briefing, he discussed the three teams he has
formed to look at three options [SSF derivative @ LaRC,
modular buildup with Bus-1 @ MSFC, and Single Launch
Core ["wingless Orbiter"] @ JSC. Later, in response to
a reporters question, I thought I heard O'Connor say
the option based on a SSF redesign was a "moderate"
cost option, in between low & high cost options. Not
the "high cost" option as Sawyer wrote).

The article goes on to describe the other two options
as "one features modules that could gradually be fitted
together in orbit, similar to the Russian Mir. The
other is a core facility that could be deposited in
orbit in a single launch, like Skylab. That option
would use existing hardware from the space shuttle -
the fuselage, for example, in its basic structure."

The last sentence in the article contradicts the title
& the first paragraph. The sentence reads "He
[O'Connor] said a streamlined version of the planned
space station Freedom is still possible within the
administration's budget guidelines."


after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Washington Post Article on SSF Redesign
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 52

Space Station Redesign Leader Says Cost Goal May Be
Impossible

Today 46 the Washington Post ran an article with the
headline shown above The article starts with A leader
of the NASA team in charge of redesigning the planned
space station said yesterday the job is tough and may
be impossible OConnor is quoted saying whether it is
possible to cut costs that much and still provide for
meaningful research is a real question for me
OConnor said everything is fair game including
dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the
aerospace industry chopping management of the space
station program at some NASA facilities around the
country working closely with the Russian space station
Mir and using unmanned Titan rockets to supplement the
manned space shuttle fleet

OConnor says his team has reviewed 30 design options
so far and they are sorting the serious candidates
into three categories based on cost

The Post says OConnor described the design derived
from the current SSF as a high cost option I believe
Kathy Sawyer the Post writer got confused here I
listened in on part of OConnors briefing to the press
on Monday and in one part of the briefing OConnor
talked about how the White House wants three options
sorted by cost [low medium and high] In another part
of the briefing he discussed the three teams he has
formed to look at three options [SSF derivative  LaRC
modular buildup with Bus1  MSFC and Single Launch
Core [wingless Orbiter]  JSC Later in response to
a reporters question I thought I heard OConnor say
the option based on a SSF redesign was a moderate
cost option in between low  high cost options Not
the high cost option as Sawyer wrote

The article goes on to describe the other two options
as one features modules that could gradually be fitted
together in orbit similar to the Russian Mir The
other is a core facility that could be deposited in
orbit in a single launch like Skylab That option
would use existing hardware from the space shuttle 
the fuselage for example in its basic structure

The last sentence in the article contradicts the title
 the first paragraph The sentence reads He
[OConnor] said a streamlined version of the planned
space station Freedom is still possible within the
administrations budget guidelines


preprocess doc  From: pef1@quads.uchicago.edu (it's enrico palazzo!)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. Where are they?
Reply-To: pef1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 36

> = From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>

> If all of these things have been detected in space, has anyone
> looked into possible problems with the detectors?

> That is, is there some mechanism (cosmic rays, whatever) that
> could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
> things?

> Graydon

That would not explain why widely separated detectors, such as on Ulysses
and PVO and Ginga et al., would see a burst at the same time(*).  In fact, be-
fore BATSE, having this widely separated "Interplanetary Network" was the
only sure way to locate a random burst.  With only one detector, one cannot
locate a burst (except to say "It's somewhere in the field of view.").  With
two detectors, one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector
to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky.  With three detectors,
one gets intersecting annuli, giving two possible locations.  If one of these
locations is impossible (because, say, the Earth blocked that part of the 
sky), voila, you have an error box.

BATSE, by having 8 detectors of its own, can do its own location determination,
but only to within about 3 degrees (would someone at GSFC, like David, like
to comment on the current state of location determination?).  Having inde-
pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty.

You did touch on something that you didn't mean to, though.  Some believe
(in a reference that I have somewhere) that absorption-like features seen
in a fraction of GRBs can actually be caused by the detector.  It would be
a mean, nasty God, though, that would have a NaI crystal act like a 10^12 Gauss
neutron star...but this is getting too far afield.

Peter
peterf@oddjob.uchicago.edu


after prepro  From pef1quadsuchicagoedu its enrico palazzo
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters Where are they
ReplyTo pef1midwayuchicagoedu
Organization University of Chicago
Lines 36

  From Graydon 

 If all of these things have been detected in space has anyone
 looked into possible problems with the detectors

 That is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that
 could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
 things

 Graydon

That would not explain why widely separated detectors such as on Ulysses
and PVO and Ginga et al would see a burst at the same time  In fact be
fore BATSE having this widely separated Interplanetary Network was the
only sure way to locate a random burst  With only one detector one cannot
locate a burst except to say Its somewhere in the field of view  With
two detectors one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector
to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky  With three detectors
one gets intersecting annuli giving two possible locations  If one of these
locations is impossible because say the Earth blocked that part of the 
sky voila you have an error box

BATSE by having 8 detectors of its own can do its own location determination
but only to within about 3 degrees would someone at GSFC like David like
to comment on the current state of location determination  Having inde
pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty

You did touch on something that you didnt mean to though  Some believe
in a reference that I have somewhere that absorptionlike features seen
in a fraction of GRBs can actually be caused by the detector  It would be
a mean nasty God though that would have a NaI crystal act like a 10^12 Gauss
neutron starbut this is getting too far afield

Peter
peterfoddjobuchicagoedu


preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 74

In article <114140@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
 
>>>>> In cases of prostitution
>>>>>both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public, quite
>>>>>severely.
 
(Deletion)
 
>
>>No Gregg, you cannot say A is lenient and A punishes severely in public.
>>Unless, of course, it is one of the exceptions implied by "almost all
>>matters".
>
>That depends on the statistics and who is punished in public. If some
>power (for example, nothing Islamic about it) allows men to rape women
>five times before blowing the rapist's head off in public then I'd call
>that leniency, wouldn't you?
>
 
You have given that example. It is not lenient. End of argument.
 
And chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either. It
rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system
without checking if they suit the description.
 
And wasn't the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according
to Islamic law?
 
 
>>While I don't approve of it, I think both the prostitute and the customer
>>have the right to do what they do. In other words, punishing them is a
>>violation of their rights. And to punish them severely in public is just
>>another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many
>>religions.
>
>Believe what you like.
>
 
No, I even believe what I don't like. Can you give better answers than that?
Have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims?
 
 
>>In this case, I don't see why I should accept the complex ridden views
>>of an oriental goatherd.
>
>Ah, yes, I forget that the West is historically so much without sexual
>neurosis :)
>
>"Oriental goatherd", _really_ intellectual.
>
 
A fact, if memory serves. And most will see the connection between the
primitive machism in the Orient and in Islam.
 
>>If people agree on having sex it is fine. And I would assume that a
>>god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it
>>are.
>
>Huh? Ever heard of AIDs? (Of course you'll probably go on to say that
>God must be evil because he allows the disease to exist, bla bla).
>
 
As usually you miss the point. Aids is  neither spread only through sex
nor necessarily spread by having sex. Futher, the point is, a very important
point, the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of AIDS. It is even
stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex. The
consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of Aids.
Please note that the idea that everybody would end up with AIDS when sex
is not controlled is completely counterfactual.
 
 
And since you have brought up the point, is your god evil or not?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 74

In article 114140buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
 In cases of prostitution
both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public quite
severely
 
Deletion
 

No Gregg you cannot say A is lenient and A punishes severely in public
Unless of course it is one of the exceptions implied by almost all
matters

That depends on the statistics and who is punished in public If some
power for example nothing Islamic about it allows men to rape women
five times before blowing the rapists head off in public then Id call
that leniency wouldnt you

 
You have given that example It is not lenient End of argument
 
And chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either It
rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system
without checking if they suit the description
 
And wasnt the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according
to Islamic law
 
 
While I dont approve of it I think both the prostitute and the customer
have the right to do what they do In other words punishing them is a
violation of their rights And to punish them severely in public is just
another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many
religions

Believe what you like

 
No I even believe what I dont like Can you give better answers than that
Have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims
 
 
In this case I dont see why I should accept the complex ridden views
of an oriental goatherd

Ah yes I forget that the West is historically so much without sexual
neurosis 

Oriental goatherd _really_ intellectual

 
A fact if memory serves And most will see the connection between the
primitive machism in the Orient and in Islam
 
If people agree on having sex it is fine And I would assume that a
god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it
are

Huh Ever heard of AIDs Of course youll probably go on to say that
God must be evil because he allows the disease to exist bla bla

 
As usually you miss the point Aids is  neither spread only through sex
nor necessarily spread by having sex Futher the point is a very important
point the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of AIDS It is even
stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex The
consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of Aids
Please note that the idea that everybody would end up with AIDS when sex
is not controlled is completely counterfactual
 
 
And since you have brought up the point is your god evil or not
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31

In article <kmr4.1572.734847158@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
>Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 04:12:38 GMT
>
>(S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>>(TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>>I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named 
>>>Ellen G. White.  I hope that what she said will help you to edit your 
>>>remarks in this group in the future.
>>>
>>>"Do not set yourself as a standard.  Do not make your opinions, your views 
>>>of duty, your interpretations of scripture, a criterion for others and in 
>>>your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal."
>>>                         Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p. 124
>>
>>Point?
>
>	Point: you have taken it upon yourself to judge others; when only 
>God is the true judge.
>
>---
>
>   Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible. 
>        
>
I agree totally with you!  Amen!  You stated it better and in less world 
than I did.

Tammy


after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 041238 GMT

SN Mozumder  writes
TAMMY R HEALY writes
I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named 
Ellen G White  I hope that what she said will help you to edit your 
remarks in this group in the future

Do not set yourself as a standard  Do not make your opinions your views 
of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in 
your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal
                         Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p 124

Point

	Point you have taken it upon yourself to judge others when only 
God is the true judge



   Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible 
        

I agree totally with you  Amen  You stated it better and in less world 
than I did

Tammy


preprocess doc  From: rm03@ic.ac.uk (Mr R. Mellish)
Subject: Re: university violating separation of church/state?
Organization: Imperial College
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.31.80.14

In article <199304041750.AA17104@kepler.unh.edu> dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings) writes:
>
>
>
>     Recently, RAs have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about
>it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll: Thoughts
>on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
>stall doors. (at my school, the University of New Hampshire) It is some sort
>of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus.
[most of post deleted]
>
>  Please respond as soon as possible. I'd like these religious postings to
>stop, NOW! 
>
>  
>Thanks,
>
>  Dana
>
>       
>        
There is an easy way out....
Post the flyers on the stall doors, but add at the bottom, in nice large
capitals,

      EMERGENCY TOILET PAPER

:)

-- 
------              Robert Mellish, FOG, IC, UK                  ------
 Email: r.mellish@ic.ac.uk   Net: rm03@sg1.cc.ic.ac.uk    IRC:  HobNob
------     and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work.         ------

after prepro  From rm03icacuk Mr R Mellish
Subject Re university violating separation of churchstate
Organization Imperial College
Lines 33
NntpPostingHost 129318014

In article 199304041750AA17104keplerunhedu dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes



     Recently RAs have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about
it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll Thoughts
on religion spirituality and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
stall doors at my school the University of New Hampshire It is some sort
of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus
[most of post deleted]

  Please respond as soon as possible Id like these religious postings to
stop NOW 

  
Thanks

  Dana

       
        
There is an easy way out
Post the flyers on the stall doors but add at the bottom in nice large
capitals

      EMERGENCY TOILET PAPER



 
              Robert Mellish FOG IC UK                  
 Email rmellishicacuk   Net rm03sg1ccicacuk    IRC  HobNob
     and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work         

preprocess doc  From: DKELO@msmail.pepperdine.edu (Dan Kelo)
Subject: M-81 Supernova
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 7


How 'bout some more info on that alleged supernova in M-81?
I might just break out the scope for this one.
____________________________________________________
"No sir, I don't like it! "-- Mr. Horse
Dan Kelo     dkelo@pepvax.pepperdine.edu
____________________________________________________

after prepro  From DKELOmsmailpepperdineedu Dan Kelo
Subject M81 Supernova
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 7


How bout some more info on that alleged supernova in M81
I might just break out the scope for this one
____________________________________________________
No sir I dont like it  Mr Horse
Dan Kelo     dkelopepvaxpepperdineedu
____________________________________________________

preprocess doc  From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Islam vs the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Society for Trying Really Hard
Lines: 25

In article <1993Apr2.223248.19014@Princeton.EDU> qpliu@princeton.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.115300.803@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
>>the other angels free moral will.
>
>>Now God could have prevented Lucifer's fall by taking away his ability
>>to choose between moral alternatives (worship God or worship himself),
>
>So Lucifer's moral choices are determined by his will.
>What determines what his will is?
>-- 
>qpliu@princeton.edu           Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.

Bobby-

A few posts ago you said that Lucifer had no free will.  From the above
it seems the JW believes the contrary.

Are you talking about the same Lucifer?

If so, can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong?

Or do you claim that you are both right?

-Norman

after prepro  From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Islam vs the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Society for Trying Really Hard
Lines 25

In article 1993Apr222324819014PrincetonEDU qpliuprincetonedu writes
In article 1993Apr2115300803batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
the other angels free moral will

Now God could have prevented Lucifers fall by taking away his ability
to choose between moral alternatives worship God or worship himself

So Lucifers moral choices are determined by his will
What determines what his will is
 
qpliuprincetonedu           Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated

Bobby

A few posts ago you said that Lucifer had no free will  From the above
it seems the JW believes the contrary

Are you talking about the same Lucifer

If so can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong

Or do you claim that you are both right

Norman

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22

In <1r6ub0$mgl@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>In article <1993Apr22.164801.7530@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>>	Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
>>players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
>>per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.
>>


>I don't think so at first,  but solid state offered  better reliabity,
>id bet,  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.

Careful.  Making statements about how solid state is (generally) more
reliable than analog will get you a nasty follow-up from Tommy Mac or
Pat.  Wait a minute; you *are* Pat.  Pleased to see that you're not
suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind.  ;-)

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22

In 1r6ub0mglaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

In article 1993Apr221648017530julianuwoca jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
	Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems



I dont think so at first  but solid state offered  better reliabity
id bet  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up

Careful  Making statements about how solid state is generally more
reliable than analog will get you a nasty followup from Tommy Mac or
Pat  Wait a minute you are Pat  Pleased to see that youre not
suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind  

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com
Subject: What counntries do space surveillance?
Organization: Science Applications Int'l Corp./San Diego
Lines: 111

      Ethnocentric USian that I am, I've assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
non-cooperative objects in low Earth orbit. Grazing in a couple of 
databases recently,  I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line, and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys (it isn't clear whether the radar can 
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects). Abstracts of 
the articles are appended. 


    This leads to the more general question: do yet other people than 
the US, Russia, and Japan do space surveillance, and if so, how and 
why? 

Allen Thomson              SAIC                        McLean, VA, USA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ABSTRACTS

Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite (EGS)
TAKABE, MASAO; ITABE, TOSHIKAZU; ARUGA, TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory, Review (ISSN 0033-801X), vol. 34,
March 1988, p. 23-34. In Japanese, with abstract in English.
     This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
(experimental geodetic satellite) which was launched on August 13,
1986, by NASDA. The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory (RRL) optical ground       <----
station are discussed. A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described. The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed. In addition, it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite (JAS-1) which was
launched with the EGS, was accurately determined by means of a      <----
satellite tracking video. It is clear from this experiment that     <----
optical observation data (i.e., satellite direction data) are very  <----
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch      <----
stages. Furthermore, the results confirm the effectivenes of these  <----
two satellite optical tracking techniques.                          <----


MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO, TORU; KAYAMA, HIDETOSHI; FURUSAWA, AKIRA; KIMURA, IWANE
(Kyoto University, Japan)
AIAA, NASA, and DOD, Orbital Debris Conference: Technical Issues and 
Future Directions, Baltimore, MD, Apr. 16-19, 1990. 10 p. 
RPN: AIAA PAPER 90-1343
     Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross 
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high-
power VHF Doppler radar (MU radar) of Japan. An automated data 
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of 
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail 
echoes or lightning atmospherics. Although the results are preliminary, 
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar      <----
observations using a much higher frequency. It is found that the     <----
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an 
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as 
once per two years. 


Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora (EXOS-C)
SATO, T.; INOOKA, Y.; FUKAO, S. (Kyoto Univ., Japan); KATO, S.
Kyoto Univ., Uji (Japan). Radio Atmospheric Science Center.
In International Council of Scientific Unions, Middle Atmosphere Program.
Handbook for MAP, Vol. 20 5 p
Publication Date: Jun. 1986
      As the first attempt among MST (mesosphere stratosphere 
troposphere) type radars, the MU (middle and upper atmosphere) radar 
features an active phased array system. Unlike the conventional large 
VHF radars, in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed 
to individual antenna elements, each of 475 solid state power amplifier 
feeds each antenna element. This system configuration enables very fast 
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the 
antenna into independent subarrays, because phase shift and signal 
division/combination are performed at a low signal level using 
electronic devices under control of a computer network. The antenna 
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the 
zenith angle of 30 deg. Since a precise phase alignment of each element 
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system, careful 
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna 
element was carried out. Among various aircraft which may be used for 
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to 
make a long term monitoring with the same system. An antenna pattern 
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific 
satellite OHZORA (EXOS-C). A receiver named MUM (MU radar antenna 
Monitor) on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400 
watts transmitted from the MU radar. The principle of the measurement 
and results are discussed.


Equatorial radar system
FUKAO, SHOICHIRO;  TSUDA, TOSHITAKA; SATO, TORU; KATO, SUSUMU
(Kyoto University, Uji, Japan)
(COSPAR, IAGA, SCOSTEP, et al., Plenary Meeting, 27th,
Workshops and Symposium on the Earth's Middle Atmosphere,
Espoo, Finland, July 18-29, 1988) Advances in Space Research
(ISSN 0273-1177), vol. 10, no. 10, 1990, p. 151-154.
     A large clear air radar with the sensitivity of an incoherent 
scatter radar for observing the whole equatorial atmosphere up to 1000 
km altitude is now being designed in Japan. The radar will be built in 
Pontianak, West Kalimantan, Indonesia (0.03 deg N, 109.29 deg E). The 
system is a 47-MHz monostatic Doppler radar with an active phased array 
configuration similar to that of the MU radar in Japan, which has been 
in successful operation since 1983. It will have a PA product of about 
3 x 10 to the 9th W sq m (P = average transmitter power, A = effective 
antenna aperture) with a sensitivity of approximately 10 times that of 
the MU radar. This system configuration enables pulse-to-pulse beam 
steering within 20 deg from the zenith. As is the case of the MU radar, 
a variety of operations will be made feasible under the supervision of 
the radar controller. A brief description of the system configuration 
is presented. 


after prepro  From thomsonalcpvasaiccom
Subject What counntries do space surveillance
Organization Science Applications Intl CorpSan Diego
Lines 111

      Ethnocentric USian that I am Ive assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
noncooperative objects in low Earth orbit Grazing in a couple of 
databases recently  I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys it isnt clear whether the radar can 
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects Abstracts of 
the articles are appended 


    This leads to the more general question do yet other people than 
the US Russia and Japan do space surveillance and if so how and 
why 

Allen Thomson              SAIC                        McLean VA USA

                         ABSTRACTS

Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite EGS
TAKABE MASAO ITABE TOSHIKAZU ARUGA TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory Review ISSN 0033801X vol 34
March 1988 p 2334 In Japanese with abstract in English
     This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
experimental geodetic satellite which was launched on August 13
1986 by NASDA The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory RRL optical ground       
station are discussed A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed In addition it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite JAS1 which was
launched with the EGS was accurately determined by means of a      
satellite tracking video It is clear from this experiment that     
optical observation data ie satellite direction data are very  
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch      
stages Furthermore the results confirm the effectivenes of these  
two satellite optical tracking techniques                          


MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO TORU KAYAMA HIDETOSHI FURUSAWA AKIRA KIMURA IWANE
Kyoto University Japan
AIAA NASA and DOD Orbital Debris Conference Technical Issues and 
Future Directions Baltimore MD Apr 1619 1990 10 p 
RPN AIAA PAPER 901343
     Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross 
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high
power VHF Doppler radar MU radar of Japan An automated data 
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of 
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail 
echoes or lightning atmospherics Although the results are preliminary 
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar      
observations using a much higher frequency It is found that the     
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an 
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as 
once per two years 


Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora EXOSC
SATO T INOOKA Y FUKAO S Kyoto Univ Japan KATO S
Kyoto Univ Uji Japan Radio Atmospheric Science Center
In International Council of Scientific Unions Middle Atmosphere Program
Handbook for MAP Vol 20 5 p
Publication Date Jun 1986
      As the first attempt among MST mesosphere stratosphere 
troposphere type radars the MU middle and upper atmosphere radar 
features an active phased array system Unlike the conventional large 
VHF radars in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed 
to individual antenna elements each of 475 solid state power amplifier 
feeds each antenna element This system configuration enables very fast 
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the 
antenna into independent subarrays because phase shift and signal 
divisioncombination are performed at a low signal level using 
electronic devices under control of a computer network The antenna 
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the 
zenith angle of 30 deg Since a precise phase alignment of each element 
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system careful 
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna 
element was carried out Among various aircraft which may be used for 
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to 
make a long term monitoring with the same system An antenna pattern 
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific 
satellite OHZORA EXOSC A receiver named MUM MU radar antenna 
Monitor on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400 
watts transmitted from the MU radar The principle of the measurement 
and results are discussed


Equatorial radar system
FUKAO SHOICHIRO  TSUDA TOSHITAKA SATO TORU KATO SUSUMU
Kyoto University Uji Japan
COSPAR IAGA SCOSTEP et al Plenary Meeting 27th
Workshops and Symposium on the Earths Middle Atmosphere
Espoo Finland July 1829 1988 Advances in Space Research
ISSN 02731177 vol 10 no 10 1990 p 151154
     A large clear air radar with the sensitivity of an incoherent 
scatter radar for observing the whole equatorial atmosphere up to 1000 
km altitude is now being designed in Japan The radar will be built in 
Pontianak West Kalimantan Indonesia 003 deg N 10929 deg E The 
system is a 47MHz monostatic Doppler radar with an active phased array 
configuration similar to that of the MU radar in Japan which has been 
in successful operation since 1983 It will have a PA product of about 
3 x 10 to the 9th W sq m P  average transmitter power A  effective 
antenna aperture with a sensitivity of approximately 10 times that of 
the MU radar This system configuration enables pulsetopulse beam 
steering within 20 deg from the zenith As is the case of the MU radar 
a variety of operations will be made feasible under the supervision of 
the radar controller A brief description of the system configuration 
is presented 


preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: There must be a creator! (Maybe)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu

In article <1993Apr2.144909.806@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.165032.3356@bradford.ac.uk>, L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
[deletions]
>>...Argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of
>> reasoning since medieval times.
[deletions]
>Interesting that you should mention that "Argument from incredulity has
>not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times."  I
>quite agree.  Why then, do some atheists here engage in it?  More than
>a few times I have read posts where the atheists posting state that
>they 'cannot see how a gracious and loving God can allow such evil and
>suffering to occur as we see on the earth.'  Simply because they cannot
>envision it, it must not be true.  If this is not an argument from
>incredulity, I don't know what is!

 As you have presented it, it is indeed an argument from incredulity.
However, from what I have seen, it is not often presented in this manner.
It is usually presented more in the form, "And *besides*, I cannot see...
...nor have I ever been offered a convincing explanation."
 Moreover, it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such
phenomena. That theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not
an argument in theism's favor. Especially when different theisms offer 
different explanations, and even different adherents of what is purportedly
the same theism give different explanations...

>                                    God has far more complex motivations
>and reasons for action or non-action than to simply "fix" evil whenever
>and however it occurs, or even *before* it occurs.  And yet, it is this
>very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons
>why atheists (in general) reject God and in particular the Christian God.

 Not im my experience. In my experience, the most common reason is the
lack of evidence in theism's favor. You mileage may vary. :->

>This seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality, 
>to wit, that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning 
>on the part of one's opponents than it is to see it in oneself.

 Oh, heck, I'll be snide this once. :-> It's also fairly easy to attack
arguments that are not made. (I.e. 'strawmen'.)

>As one Man of Wisdom put it, take the log out of your own eye before you 
>try to remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye.

 Sage advice indeed.

 Sincerely,

 Raymond Ingles                       ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "An apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away." - B. Kliban

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re There must be a creator Maybe
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 51
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu

In article 1993Apr2144909806batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 1993Apr21650323356bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
[deletions]
Argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of
 reasoning since medieval times
[deletions]
Interesting that you should mention that Argument from incredulity has
not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times  I
quite agree  Why then do some atheists here engage in it  More than
a few times I have read posts where the atheists posting state that
they cannot see how a gracious and loving God can allow such evil and
suffering to occur as we see on the earth  Simply because they cannot
envision it it must not be true  If this is not an argument from
incredulity I dont know what is

 As you have presented it it is indeed an argument from incredulity
However from what I have seen it is not often presented in this manner
It is usually presented more in the form And besides I cannot see
nor have I ever been offered a convincing explanation
 Moreover it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such
phenomena That theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not
an argument in theisms favor Especially when different theisms offer 
different explanations and even different adherents of what is purportedly
the same theism give different explanations

                                    God has far more complex motivations
and reasons for action or nonaction than to simply fix evil whenever
and however it occurs or even before it occurs  And yet it is this
very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons
why atheists in general reject God and in particular the Christian God

 Not im my experience In my experience the most common reason is the
lack of evidence in theisms favor You mileage may vary 

This seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality 
to wit that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning 
on the part of ones opponents than it is to see it in oneself

 Oh heck Ill be snide this once  Its also fairly easy to attack
arguments that are not made Ie strawmen

As one Man of Wisdom put it take the log out of your own eye before you 
try to remove the splinter from your neighbors eye

 Sage advice indeed

 Sincerely

 Raymond Ingles                       inglesenginumichedu

 An apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away  B Kliban

preprocess doc  From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 38

>In article <kutluk.734797558@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>>Atheists are not
>>mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view, and a
>>minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing.


I guess that's why scientists probably aren't mentioned either.  Or
stock brokers.  Or television repairmen.  

It's precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood
( that it takes to progress a religion ) cleans away a very substantial
part of the reasoning neurons.

But don't mind me;  I don't exist.

-jim halat
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            


after prepro  From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 38

In article  kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven writes
Atheists are not
mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view and a
minutes reasoning one can see that there is no such thing


I guess thats why scientists probably arent mentioned either  Or
stock brokers  Or television repairmen  

Its precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood
 that it takes to progress a religion  cleans away a very substantial
part of the reasoning neurons

But dont mind me  I dont exist

jim halat
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            


preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Studies on Book of Mormon
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31

In article <735023059snx@enkidu.mic.cl> agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt) writes:
>From: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt)
>Subject: Studies on Book of Mormon
>Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 14:15:33 CST
>Hi!
>
>I don't know much about Mormons, and I want to know about serious independent
>studies about the Book of Mormon.
>
>I don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven,
>but haven't read the Book of Mormon by myself (I have to much work learning
>Biblical Hebrew), I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
>in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on.
>
>For example: There is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers?
>There are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later
>discovered by archeologist?
>
>Yours in Collen
>
>Andres Grino Brandt               Casilla 14801 - Santiago 21
>agrino@enkidu.mic.cl                        Chile
>
>No hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta
I don't think the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from Biblical 
Hebrew.  I've read that "prophet Joseph Smith" traslated the gold tablets 
from some sort of Egyptian-ish language.  
Former Mormons, PLEASE post.

Tammy "no trim" Healy


after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Studies on Book of Mormon
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31

In article 735023059snxenkidumiccl agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt writes
From agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt
Subject Studies on Book of Mormon
Date Sun 18 Apr 1993 141533 CST
Hi

I dont know much about Mormons and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon

I dont buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven
but havent read the Book of Mormon by myself I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style vocabulary placenames internal consistency and so on

For example There is evidence for onewriter or multiple writers
There are some mention about events places or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist

Yours in Collen

Andres Grino Brandt               Casilla 14801  Santiago 21
agrinoenkidumiccl                        Chile

No hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta
I dont think the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from Biblical 
Hebrew  Ive read that prophet Joseph Smith traslated the gold tablets 
from some sort of Egyptianish language  
Former Mormons PLEASE post

Tammy no trim Healy


preprocess doc  From: aa429@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Ford)
Subject: NASP
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 15



Could someone please send me the basics of the NASP project:
1. The proposal/objectives
2. The current status of the project/obstacles encountered
3. Chance that the project shall ever be completed
or any other interesting information about this project.

Any help will be much appreciated

--
Terry Ford [aa429@freenet.carleton.ca]
>House, Nepean, Ontario, Canada, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Cluster A21<
DISCALIMER: Any injuries occuring as a direct result from the reading of this
message INCLUDING HEART PALPITATIONS is not my fault in any shape or form.

after prepro  From aa429freenetcarletonca Terry Ford
Subject NASP
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 15



Could someone please send me the basics of the NASP project
1 The proposalobjectives
2 The current status of the projectobstacles encountered
3 Chance that the project shall ever be completed
or any other interesting information about this project

Any help will be much appreciated


Terry Ford [aa429freenetcarletonca]
House Nepean Ontario Canada Earth Solar System Milky Way Cluster A21
DISCALIMER Any injuries occuring as a direct result from the reading of this
message INCLUDING HEART PALPITATIONS is not my fault in any shape or form

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Dreams and Degrees (was Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 19

higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

...
>Like others involved in sci.space, Mr. Adams shows symptoms of being a
>fledgling member of the technoculture, and I think he's soaking it up
>fast.  I was a young guy with dreams once, and they led me to get a
>technical education to follow them up.  Too bad I wound up in an
>assembly-line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day...
>(-:

How can you tell they're identical?

You got one of them "Star Drek: The Next Syndication" neutrino
scanners?
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Dreams and Degrees was Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 19

higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes


Like others involved in scispace Mr Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture and I think hes soaking it up
fast  I was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up  Too bad I wound up in an
assemblyline job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day


How can you tell theyre identical

You got one of them Star Drek The Next Syndication neutrino
scanners

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Lines: 35

In <1993Apr3.233154.7045@Princeton.EDU> lije@cognito.Princeton.EDU (Elijah Millgram) writes:


>A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression "pushing
>the envelope" comes from.  Anyone out there know?

Every aircraft has flight constraints for speed/AOA/power.  When
graphed, these define the 'flight envelope' of that aircraft,
presumably so named because the graphed line encloses (envelopes) the
area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft
doesn't fall out of the sky.  Hence, 'pushing the envelope' becomes
'operating at (or beyond) the edge of the flight (or operational)
envelope'. 

Note that the envelope isn't precisely known until someone actually
flies the airplane in those regions -- up to that point, all there are
are the theoretical predictions.  Hence, one of the things test pilots
do for a living is 'push the envelope' to find out how close the
correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is -- in
essence, 'pushing back' the edges of the theoretical envelope to where
the airplane actually starts to fail to fly.  Note, too, that this is
done is a quite calculated and careful way; flight tests are generally
carefully coreographed and just what is going to be 'pushed' and how
far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans,
such as the 'early' first flight of the F-16 during its high-speed
taxi tests).

I'm sure Mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
this process (and then some).

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re pushing the envelope
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution na
Lines 35

In 1993Apr32331547045PrincetonEDU lijecognitoPrincetonEDU Elijah Millgram writes


A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression pushing
the envelope comes from  Anyone out there know

Every aircraft has flight constraints for speedAOApower  When
graphed these define the flight envelope of that aircraft
presumably so named because the graphed line encloses envelopes the
area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft
doesnt fall out of the sky  Hence pushing the envelope becomes
operating at or beyond the edge of the flight or operational
envelope 

Note that the envelope isnt precisely known until someone actually
flies the airplane in those regions  up to that point all there are
are the theoretical predictions  Hence one of the things test pilots
do for a living is push the envelope to find out how close the
correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is  in
essence pushing back the edges of the theoretical envelope to where
the airplane actually starts to fail to fly  Note too that this is
done is a quite calculated and careful way flight tests are generally
carefully coreographed and just what is going to be pushed and how
far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans
such as the early first flight of the F16 during its highspeed
taxi tests

Im sure Mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
this process and then some

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson)
Subject: Re: Magellan Venus Maps (Thanks)
In-Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov's message of 30 Mar 1993 00:34 UT
Lines: 14
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista


Thanks Ron and Peter for some very nice maps.

I have an advice though.  You wrote that the maps were reduced to 256
colors.  As far ad I understand JPEG pictures gets much better (and
the compressed files smaller) if you use the original 3 color 24 bit
data when converting to JPEG.

Thanks again,

--
Roland Karlsson             SICS, PO Box 1263, S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN
Internet: roland@sics.se    Tel: +46 8 752 15 40          Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Telex: 812 6154 7011 SICS   Ttx: 2401-812 6154 7011=SICS

after prepro  From rolandsicsse Roland Karlsson
Subject Re Magellan Venus Maps Thanks
InReplyTo baalkekelvinjplnasagovs message of 30 Mar 1993 0034 UT
Lines 14
Organization Swedish Institute of Computer Science Kista


Thanks Ron and Peter for some very nice maps

I have an advice though  You wrote that the maps were reduced to 256
colors  As far ad I understand JPEG pictures gets much better and
the compressed files smaller if you use the original 3 color 24 bit
data when converting to JPEG

Thanks again


Roland Karlsson             SICS PO Box 1263 S164 28 KISTA SWEDEN
Internet rolandsicsse    Tel 46 8 752 15 40          Fax 46 8 751 72 30
Telex 812 6154 7011 SICS   Ttx 2401812 6154 7011SICS

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 20

In article <1ql6jiINN5df@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
>They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
>weren't going to waste their time repeating them.  Sounds to me like no one
>knew, either.  I looked in some books, but to no avail.

  If the Anne Frank exhibit makes it to your small little world,
  take an afternoon to go see it.  


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly  People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
werent going to waste their time repeating them  Sounds to me like no one
knew either  I looked in some books but to no avail

  If the Anne Frank exhibit makes it to your small little world
  take an afternoon to go see it  


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Vandalizing the sky
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 50

yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:

>enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC

>>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
>>hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>>side of the booster rockets.  Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
>>for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie.

>Well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct
>some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well.  They pioneered
>this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA.

In fact, you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring NASA 
altogether.  The rocket is a commercial launch vechicle - a Conestoga flying 
a COMET payload.  NASA is simply the primary customer.  I believe SDIO has a
small payload as well.  The advertising space was sold by the owners of the
rocket, who can do whatever they darn well please with it.  In addition, these
anonymous "observers" had no reason to be startled.  The deal made Space News
at least twice. 

>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.
>>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. 

>>Is NASA really supporting this junk?

>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?

I think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy
fit.  The fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that
it has not yet been approved.


-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 50

yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes

enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets  Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie

Well if youre going to get upset with this you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well  They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA

In fact you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring NASA 
altogether  The rocket is a commercial launch vechicle  a Conestoga flying 
a COMET payload  NASA is simply the primary customer  I believe SDIO has a
small payload as well  The advertising space was sold by the owners of the
rocket who can do whatever they darn well please with it  In addition these
anonymous observers had no reason to be startled  The deal made Space News
at least twice 

Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit
NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense 

Is NASA really supporting this junk

And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip  How serious is this project  Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding

I think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy
fit  The fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that
it has not yet been approved


 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of Thu, 22 Apr 1993 04:54:03 GMT
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Lines: 25

On Thu, 22 Apr 1993 04:54:03 GMT, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu said:

nsmca> So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but
nsmca> so was Wilbur and Orville Wright, and quite a few others..

This is a common misconception.  There was nothing "off the wall"
about the Wright Brothers.  They were in correspondance with a number
of other experimenters (Octave Chanute, Lillienthal, etc), they flew
models, they had a wind tunnel.  In short, they were quite mainstream
and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community.

I suggest you read The Bishop's Boys or the biography by Harry Gates?
Combs?  (I can never remember which it is--the guy that had the FBOs
and owned Learjet for a while).  These are both in print and easily
obtainable.  The Bishop's Boys is in trade paperback, even.

Even better would be the multi-volume set of the Wrights' writings,
but this is out of print, rare, and hideously expensive.



--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

after prepro  From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of Thu 22 Apr 1993 045403 GMT
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
Lines 25

On Thu 22 Apr 1993 045403 GMT nsmcaauroraalaskaedu said

nsmca So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but
nsmca so was Wilbur and Orville Wright and quite a few others

This is a common misconception  There was nothing off the wall
about the Wright Brothers  They were in correspondance with a number
of other experimenters Octave Chanute Lillienthal etc they flew
models they had a wind tunnel  In short they were quite mainstream
and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community

I suggest you read The Bishops Boys or the biography by Harry Gates
Combs  I can never remember which it isthe guy that had the FBOs
and owned Learjet for a while  These are both in print and easily
obtainable  The Bishops Boys is in trade paperback even

Even better would be the multivolume set of the Wrights writings
but this is out of print rare and hideously expensive




Mary Shafer  DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov                    Of course I dont speak for NASA
 A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all  Unknown US fighter pilot

preprocess doc  From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 16
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi

In <kmr4.1466.734160929@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
     
>     "Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
>      contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
>      reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
>           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2

Does anybody have Bobby's post in which he said something like "I don't
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries. Maybe it's
atheists killing the female children"? It's my personal favorite!

-- 
Sami Aario         |  "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi  |   one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------'  "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"     DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.

after prepro  From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 16
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi

In  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
     
     Wait You just said that humans are rarely reasonable Doesnt that
      contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and
      reason This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false
            Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 2

Does anybody have Bobbys post in which he said something like I dont
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries Maybe its
atheists killing the female children Its my personal favorite

 
Sami Aario           Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi     one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
  Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space     DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros

preprocess doc  From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: sci.skeptic.religion (Was: Why ALT.atheism?)
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: thug.sps.mot.com

In article <93103.071613J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>Standard groups (sci, soc, talk) must conform to stricter rules when being
>established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will
>cease to exist.  These groups also reach more sites on USENET than alt
>groups.  I already posted my opinion to mathew's suggestion, which was that
>alt.atheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from
>fundies, and "elevating" its status to a standard group (and consequently,
>the volume of such postings) could make it unreadable.

I tend to agree.  I came here when it first started and watched it grow
from the roots on talk.religion.misc.  It seemed to take a while for enough
atheists to come forward to get past the "Let's trash Xians" and such.
Now there's a stable core, and frankly there's a feeling that this is
_our_ group.

If we go mainstream, we're going to be in a lot more places.  And every
fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find Jeesus! and
warn us that we're all going to Hell.

Want to see what we'll get?  Go real alt.fan.brother-jed and imagine that
those imbecilic tirades will be here.  All the time.  Every other post.

I'm being selfish.  I find I really learn a lot here and the S/N isn't too
bad.  The Browns and the Boobys are a distraction, but they are few enough
that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them.  But
I greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping
level of the Conners of the world.

Regards,
Dew
-- 
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637

after prepro  From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re sciskepticreligion Was Why ALTatheism
Organization Motorola Inc  AustinTX
Lines 33
NNTPPostingHost thugspsmotcom

In article 93103071613J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson  writes

Standard groups sci soc talk must conform to stricter rules when being
established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will
cease to exist  These groups also reach more sites on USENET than alt
groups  I already posted my opinion to mathews suggestion which was that
altatheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from
fundies and elevating its status to a standard group and consequently
the volume of such postings could make it unreadable

I tend to agree  I came here when it first started and watched it grow
from the roots on talkreligionmisc  It seemed to take a while for enough
atheists to come forward to get past the Lets trash Xians and such
Now theres a stable core and frankly theres a feeling that this is
_our_ group

If we go mainstream were going to be in a lot more places  And every
fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find Jeesus and
warn us that were all going to Hell

Want to see what well get  Go real altfanbrotherjed and imagine that
those imbecilic tirades will be here  All the time  Every other post

Im being selfish  I find I really learn a lot here and the SN isnt too
bad  The Browns and the Boobys are a distraction but they are few enough
that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them  But
I greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping
level of the Conners of the world

Regards
Dew
 
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637

preprocess doc  From: Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: none
Lines: 51
In-reply-to: enzo@research.canon.oz.au's message of 20 Apr 93 22:36:55 GMT

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:

>Now, Space Marketing
>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>orbit.  NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.

How could this possibly be "environmental vandalism" when there is no
"environment" to vandalize up there?

Since the advertising "is just to help defray costs", it's certainly no
surprise that "the taxpayers would bear most of the expense".  Sounds
like a good idea to me, since the taxpayers would bear _all_ of the
expense if they didn't do the advertising.

>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky?

Great idea, they should have done it long ago.

>What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).

I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness.  Venus is visible during the day,
but nobody complains about that.  Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if
it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky.

>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?

No doubt.  People are always looking for something to protest about, so
it would be no surprise.

>Really, really depressed.

Well, look on the, er, bright side.  Imagine the looks on the faces of
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D

--

Jeff Cook                                  Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.com


after prepro  From JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization none
Lines 51
Inreplyto enzoresearchcanonozaus message of 20 Apr 93 223655 GMT

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes

Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit  NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs

How could this possibly be environmental vandalism when there is no
environment to vandalize up there

Since the advertising is just to help defray costs its certainly no
surprise that the taxpayers would bear most of the expense  Sounds
like a good idea to me since the taxpayers would bear _all_ of the
expense if they didnt do the advertising

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky

Great idea they should have done it long ago

What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night

I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness  Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that  Besides its in LEO so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if
it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky

Are protesting groups being organized in the States

No doubt  People are always looking for something to protest about so
it would be no surprise

Really really depressed

Well look on the er bright side  Imagine the looks on the faces of
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D



Jeff Cook                                  JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRcom


preprocess doc  From: moroney@world.std.com (Michael Moroney)
Subject: Re: Vulcan? (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 21

victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking) writes:

>Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
> 
>All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
>drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's 
>orbit.  Beyond that, I have no other info.

>Does anyone know anything more specific?

>(Yes, this happened LONG before Star Trek and is apparently where they 
>got the reference for the "guy with the ears".)

Yes, long before Star Trek.  Before Einstein, in fact.

Vulcan as a planet inside Mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation
of Mercury's orbit that could not be explained by the known planets.  But
Einstein's theory of relativity explained Mercury's motion, and analysis
of Mercury's motion now shows there are _not_ any planets inside its orbit.

-Mike

after prepro  From moroneyworldstdcom Michael Moroney
Subject Re Vulcan No not the guy with the ears
Organization The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Lines 21

victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking writes

Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
 
All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys 
orbit  Beyond that I have no other info

Does anyone know anything more specific

Yes this happened LONG before Star Trek and is apparently where they 
got the reference for the guy with the ears

Yes long before Star Trek  Before Einstein in fact

Vulcan as a planet inside Mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation
of Mercurys orbit that could not be explained by the known planets  But
Einsteins theory of relativity explained Mercurys motion and analysis
of Mercurys motion now shows there are _not_ any planets inside its orbit

Mike

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek (Better Ideas)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr25.154449.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|
|Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
|lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch..
|
|Maybe age Jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only
>survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost.. 


Of course that asumes the mission was able to launch :-)


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek Better Ideas
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr251544491auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other spacetime glitch

Maybe age Jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost 


Of course that asumes the mission was able to launch 


preprocess doc  From: phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser)
Subject: Double sonic booms.
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: luma.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 16

Every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic  
booms.  Having taken various relevant classes, I have several ideas of where  
they come from, but none of them are very convincing.  Exactly what causes  
them?  Are they a one time pheneomenon, or a constant one like the supersonic  
shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane, but you hear only when it  
goes over you?

---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Carlos G. Niederstrasser        |  Only two things are infinite,  |
| Princeton Planetary Society     |      the universe and human     |
|                                 |   stupidity, and I'm not sure   |
|                                 |   about the former. - Einstein  |
| carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu   |---------------------------------|
| space@phoenix.princeton.edu     |    Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra    |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser
Subject Double sonic booms
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost lumaprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 16

Every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic  
booms  Having taken various relevant classes I have several ideas of where  
they come from but none of them are very convincing  Exactly what causes  
them  Are they a one time pheneomenon or a constant one like the supersonic  
shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane but you hear only when it  
goes over you



 Carlos G Niederstrasser          Only two things are infinite  
 Princeton Planetary Society           the universe and human     
                                    stupidity and Im not sure   
                                    about the former  Einstein  
 carlosnphoenixprincetonedu   
 spacephoenixprincetonedu         Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra    


preprocess doc  From: Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5JHBp.55w@portal.hq.videocart.com>

Excerpts from netnews.alt.atheism: 15-Apr-93 Re: thoughts on christians
by Dave Fuller@portal.hq.vi 
>    I'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and WORST
> OF ALL . . . . respected more than atheists. There must be an end
> in sight.
>  
I think it'd help if we got a couple good atheists (or even some good,
steadfast agnostics) in some high political offices.  When was the last
time we had an (openly) atheist president?  Have we ever?  (I don't
actually know; these aren't rhetorical questions.)  How 'bout some
Supreme court justices?  

One thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news
program on a local station...The promo said something like "Who are
these cults, and why do they prey on the young?"  Ahem.  EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
is...

I used to be (ack, barf) a Catholic, and was even confirmed...Shortly
thereafter I decided it was a load of BS.  My mom, who really insisted
that I continue to go to church, felt it was her duty (!) to bring me up
as a believer!  That was one of the more presumptuous things I've heard
in my life.  I suggested we go talk to the priest, and she agreed.  The
priest was amazingly cool about it...He basically said that if I didn't
believe it, there was no good in forcing it on me.  Actually, I guess he
wasn't amazingly cool about it--His response is what you'd hope for
(indeed, expect) from a human being.  I s'pose I just _didn't_ expect
it...  

I find it absurd that religion exists; Yet, I can also see its
usefulness to people.  Facing up to the fact that you're just going to
be worm food in a few decades, and that there isn't some cosmic purpose
to humanity and the universe, can be pretty difficult for some people. 
Having a readily-available, pre-digested solution to this is pretty
attractive, if you're either a) gullible enough, b) willing to suspend
your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind, or c) have had the stuff
rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember.  Religion in
general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses; Organized
religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control.  

Blech.

Chris


----------------------
Chris Leger
Sophomore, Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always
ignore them!


after prepro  From Patrick C Leger 
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Sophomore Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost po3andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

Excerpts from netnewsaltatheism 15Apr93 Re thoughts on christians
by Dave Fullerportalhqvi 
    Im sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and WORST
 OF ALL     respected more than atheists There must be an end
 in sight
  
I think itd help if we got a couple good atheists or even some good
steadfast agnostics in some high political offices  When was the last
time we had an openly atheist president  Have we ever  I dont
actually know these arent rhetorical questions  How bout some
Supreme court justices  

One thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news
program on a local stationThe promo said something like Who are
these cults and why do they prey on the young  Ahem  EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH  If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is

I used to be ack barf a Catholic and was even confirmedShortly
thereafter I decided it was a load of BS  My mom who really insisted
that I continue to go to church felt it was her duty  to bring me up
as a believer  That was one of the more presumptuous things Ive heard
in my life  I suggested we go talk to the priest and she agreed  The
priest was amazingly cool about itHe basically said that if I didnt
believe it there was no good in forcing it on me  Actually I guess he
wasnt amazingly cool about itHis response is what youd hope for
indeed expect from a human being  I spose I just _didnt_ expect
it  

I find it absurd that religion exists Yet I can also see its
usefulness to people  Facing up to the fact that youre just going to
be worm food in a few decades and that there isnt some cosmic purpose
to humanity and the universe can be pretty difficult for some people 
Having a readilyavailable predigested solution to this is pretty
attractive if youre either a gullible enough b willing to suspend
your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind or c have had the stuff
rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember  Religion in
general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses Organized
religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control  

Blech

Chris



Chris Leger
Sophomore Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Rememberif you dont like what somebody is saying you can always
ignore them


preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 117

In article <16BB112949.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <115287@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

 
>>>>>A brutal system filtered through "leniency" is not lenient.


>>>>Huh?


>>>How do you rate public floggings or floggings at all? Chopping off the
>>>hands, heads, or other body  parts? What about stoning?


>>I don't have a problem with floggings, particularly, when the offenders
>>have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are
>>given. I do have a problem with maiming in general, by whatever means.
>>In my opinion no-one who has not maimed another should be maimed. In
>>the case of rape the victim _is_ maimed, physically and emotionally,
>>so I wouldn't have a problem with maiming rapists. Obviously I wouldn't
>>have a problem with maiming murderers either.


>May I ask if you had the same opinion before you became a Muslim?



Sure. Yes, I did. You see I don't think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly. You, being so interested in leniency for
leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be
told the "did a _bad_ thing."


>And what about the simple chance of misjudgements?

Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible.
I suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement
of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely.

 
>>>>>>"Orient" is not a place having a single character. Your ignorance
>>>>>>exposes itself nicely here.


>>>>>Read carefully, I have not said all the Orient shows primitive machism.


>>>>Well then, why not use more specific words than "Orient"? Probably
>>>>because in your mind there is no need to (it's all the same).


>>>Because it contains sufficient information. While more detail is possible,
>>>it is not necessary.


>>And Europe shows civilized bullshit. This is bullshit. Time to put out
>>or shut up. You've substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like
>>"Islamists" who talk about the West as the "Great Satan." You're both
>>guilty of stupidities.


>I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
>not to call each others names. In this case, to substantiate it: The Quran
>allows that one beATs one's wife into submission. 


Really? Care to give chapter and verse? We could discuss it.


>Primitive Machism refers to
>that. (I have misspelt that before, my fault).
 

Again, not all of the Orient follows the Qur'an. So you'll have to do
better than that.


Sorry, you haven't "put out" enough.

 
>>>Islam expresses extramarital sex. Extramarital sex is a subset of sex. It is
>>>suppressedin Islam. That marial sexis  allowed or encouraged in Islam, as
>>>it is in many branches of Christianity, too, misses the point.

>>>Read the part about the urge for sex again. Religions that run around telling
>>>people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons: Suppressing
>>>a strong urge needs  strong measures, and it is not their business anyway.

>>Believe what you wish. I thought you were trying to make an argument.
>>All I am reading are opinions.
 
>It is an argument. That you doubt the validity of the premises does not change
>it. If you want to criticize it, do so. Time for you to put up or shut up.



This is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress
sex. A such it's an irrelevant argument.

If you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then 
fine. My response is then: you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments").

The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it. If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner.



Gregg







after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 117

In article 16BB112949I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 115287buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

 
A brutal system filtered through leniency is not lenient


Huh


How do you rate public floggings or floggings at all Chopping off the
hands heads or other body  parts What about stoning


I dont have a problem with floggings particularly when the offenders
have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are
given I do have a problem with maiming in general by whatever means
In my opinion noone who has not maimed another should be maimed In
the case of rape the victim _is_ maimed physically and emotionally
so I wouldnt have a problem with maiming rapists Obviously I wouldnt
have a problem with maiming murderers either


May I ask if you had the same opinion before you became a Muslim



Sure Yes I did You see I dont think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly You being so interested in leniency for
leniencys sake apparently think that people should simply be
told the did a _bad_ thing


And what about the simple chance of misjudgements

Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible
I suspect that its pretty unlikely that given my requirement
of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely

 
Orient is not a place having a single character Your ignorance
exposes itself nicely here


Read carefully I have not said all the Orient shows primitive machism


Well then why not use more specific words than Orient Probably
because in your mind there is no need to its all the same


Because it contains sufficient information While more detail is possible
it is not necessary


And Europe shows civilized bullshit This is bullshit Time to put out
or shut up Youve substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like
Islamists who talk about the West as the Great Satan Youre both
guilty of stupidities


I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
not to call each others names In this case to substantiate it The Quran
allows that one beATs ones wife into submission 


Really Care to give chapter and verse We could discuss it


Primitive Machism refers to
that I have misspelt that before my fault
 

Again not all of the Orient follows the Quran So youll have to do
better than that


Sorry you havent put out enough

 
Islam expresses extramarital sex Extramarital sex is a subset of sex It is
suppressedin Islam That marial sexis  allowed or encouraged in Islam as
it is in many branches of Christianity too misses the point

Read the part about the urge for sex again Religions that run around telling
people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons Suppressing
a strong urge needs  strong measures and it is not their business anyway

Believe what you wish I thought you were trying to make an argument
All I am reading are opinions
 
It is an argument That you doubt the validity of the premises does not change
it If you want to criticize it do so Time for you to put up or shut up



This is an argument for why _you_ dont like religions that suppress
sex A such its an irrelevant argument

If youd like to generalize it to an objective statement then 
fine My response is then you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments

The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner



Gregg







preprocess doc  From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 20

sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:

> Allen, sometimes I think you're OK.  And sometimes you tend to rashly leap in
> making statement without thinking them out. 
> 
> Wanna guess which today?
> 
> You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
> of a private Titan pad? 


Doug-- Actually, if memory serves, the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old 
Titan ICBM.  If so, there's probably quite a few old pads, albeit in need 
of some serious reconditioning.  Still, Being able to buy the turf and 
pad (and bunkers, including prep facility) at Midwest farmland prices 
strikes me as pretty damned cheap.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael  - dante@shakala.com 
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289

after prepro  From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 20

sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes

 Allen sometimes I think youre OK  And sometimes you tend to rashly leap in
 making statement without thinking them out 
 
 Wanna guess which today
 
 Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
 of a private Titan pad 


Doug Actually if memory serves the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old 
Titan ICBM  If so theres probably quite a few old pads albeit in need 
of some serious reconditioning  Still Being able to buy the turf and 
pad and bunkers including prep facility at Midwest farmland prices 
strikes me as pretty damned cheap


Charlie Prael   danteshakalacom 
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289

preprocess doc  From: pmolloy@microwave.msfc.nasa.gov (G. Patrick Molloy)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Nntp-Posting-Host: 128.158.30.103
Reply-To: pmolloy@microwave.msfc.nasa.gov (G. Patrick Molloy)
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Lines: 40

In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu 
writes:
> Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
> exploration.
> 
> Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
> You think this is crazy. Well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality.
> 
> There is a billin the congress to do just that.. Basically to make it so
> expensive to mine minerals in the US, unless you can by off the inspectors or
> tax collectors.. ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends 
> of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of
> the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there
> normal taxes. So by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and
> other expenses you can owe more than what you made.
> BAsically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe
> 600.00 in federal taxes.. Bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. And
> the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks.. 
> 
> Basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go
> cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
> eco-freaks or the protectionist.. 
> Such fun we have in these interesting times..
> 
> ==
> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

The current mining regulations and fees were set in the 1800's!
What the so-called "eco-freaks" want to do is to simply bring those
fees in line with current economic reality.  Currently, mining companies
can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices --
something like $50!  The mining lobby has for decades managed to block
any reform of these outdated fees.  In fact, the latest attempt to reform
them was again blocked -- President Clinton "compromised" by taking the
mining fee reforms out of his '94 budget, and plans to draft separate
legislation to fight that battle.
If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you take this to talk.environment.

G. Patrick Molloy
Huntsville, Alabama

after prepro  From pmolloymicrowavemsfcnasagov G Patrick Molloy
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
NntpPostingHost 12815830103
ReplyTo pmolloymicrowavemsfcnasagov G Patrick Molloy
Organization NASAMSFC
Lines 40

In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu 
writes
 Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
 exploration
 
 Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
 You think this is crazy Well in a way it is but in a way it is reality
 
 There is a billin the congress to do just that Basically to make it so
 expensive to mine minerals in the US unless you can by off the inspectors or
 tax collectors ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends 
 of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of
 the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there
 normal taxes So by the time you get done paying for materials workers and
 other expenses you can owe more than what you made
 BAsically if you make a 100000 and spend 500 ofor expenses you can owe
 60000 in federal taxes Bascially it is driving the miners off the land And
 the only peopel who benefit are the ecofreaks 
 
 Basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go
 cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
 ecofreaks or the protectionist 
 Such fun we have in these interesting times
 
 
 Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

The current mining regulations and fees were set in the 1800s
What the socalled ecofreaks want to do is to simply bring those
fees in line with current economic reality  Currently mining companies
can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices 
something like 50  The mining lobby has for decades managed to block
any reform of these outdated fees  In fact the latest attempt to reform
them was again blocked  President Clinton compromised by taking the
mining fee reforms out of his 94 budget and plans to draft separate
legislation to fight that battle
If you want to discuss this further I suggest you take this to talkenvironment

G Patrick Molloy
Huntsville Alabama

preprocess doc  From: aa429@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Ford)
Subject: A flawed propulsion system: Space Shuttle
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13



For an essay, I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better
propulsion system.  Through research, I have found that it is rather clumsy 
(i.e. all the checks/tests before launch), the safety hazards ("sitting
on a hydrogen bomb"), etc..  If you have any beefs about the current
space shuttle program Re: propulsion, please send me your ideas.

Thanks a lot.

--
Terry Ford [aa429@freenet.carleton.ca]
Nepean, Ontario, Canada.

after prepro  From aa429freenetcarletonca Terry Ford
Subject A flawed propulsion system Space Shuttle
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13



For an essay I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better
propulsion system  Through research I have found that it is rather clumsy 
ie all the checkstests before launch the safety hazards sitting
on a hydrogen bomb etc  If you have any beefs about the current
space shuttle program Re propulsion please send me your ideas

Thanks a lot


Terry Ford [aa429freenetcarletonca]
Nepean Ontario Canada

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 14/15 - How to Become an Astronaut
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.astronaut_733694515
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:01:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 313
Supersedes: <astronaut_730956661@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu

Archive-name: space/astronaut
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:02 $

HOW TO BECOME AN ASTRONAUT

    First the short form, authored by Henry Spencer, then an official NASA
    announcement.

    Q. How do I become an astronaut?

    A. We will assume you mean a NASA astronaut, since it's probably
    impossible for a non-Russian to get into the cosmonaut corps (paying
    passengers are not professional cosmonauts), and the other nations have
    so few astronauts (and fly even fewer) that you're better off hoping to
    win a lottery. Becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fast-jet
    experience, which means a military flying career; forget that unless you
    want to do it anyway. So you want to become a shuttle "mission
    specialist".

    If you aren't a US citizen, become one; that is a must.  After that,
    the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly
    exceeds the supply.  NASA's problem is not finding qualified people,
    but thinning the lineup down to manageable length.	It is not enough
    to be qualified; you must avoid being *dis*qualified for any reason,
    many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job.

    Get a Ph.D.  Specialize in something that involves getting your hands
    dirty with equipment, not just paper and pencil.  Forget computer
    programming entirely; it will be done from the ground for the fore-
    seeable future.  Degree(s) in one field plus work experience in
    another seems to be a frequent winner.

    Be in good physical condition, with good eyesight.	(DO NOT get a
    radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision; nobody knows
    what sudden pressure changes would do to RKed eyes, and long-term
    effects are poorly understood.  For that matter, avoid any other
    significant medical unknowns.)  If you can pass a jet-pilot physical,
    you should be okay; if you can't, your chances are poor.

    Practise public speaking, and be conservative and conformist in
    appearance and actions; you've got a tough selling job ahead, trying
    to convince a cautious, conservative selection committee that you
    are better than hundreds of other applicants.  (And, also, that you
    will be a credit to NASA after you are hired:  public relations is
    a significant part of the job, and NASA's image is very prim and
    proper.)  The image you want is squeaky-clean workaholic yuppie.
    Remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point,
    and Security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent.
    Keep your nose clean.

    Get a pilot's license and make flying your number one hobby;
    experienced pilots are known to be favored even for non-pilot jobs.

    Work for NASA; of 45 astronauts selected between 1984 and 1988,
    43 were military or NASA employees, and the remaining two were
    a NASA consultant and Mae Jemison (the first black female astronaut).
    If you apply from outside NASA and miss, but they offer you a job
    at NASA, ***TAKE IT***; sometimes in the past this has meant "you
    do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first".

    Think space:  they want highly motivated people, so lose no chance
    to demonstrate motivation.

    Keep trying.  Many astronauts didn't make it the first time.




    NASA
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration
    Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center
    Houston, Texas

    Announcement for Mission Specialist and Pilot Astronaut Candidates
    ==================================================================

    Astronaut Candidate Program
    ---------------------------

    The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) has a need for
    Pilot Astronaut Candidates and Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidates
    to support the Space Shuttle Program. NASA is now accepting on a
    continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed.

    Persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be
    considered.

    All positions are located at the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in
    Houston, Texas, and will involved a 1-year training and evaluation
    program.

    Space Shuttle Program Description
    ---------------------------------

    The numerous successful flights of the Space Shuttle have demonstrated
    that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming
    routine. The Space Shuttle Orbiter is launched into, and maneuvers in
    the Earth orbit performing missions lastling up to 30 days. It then
    returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and
    flight crew.

    The Orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment
    and retrieval of satellites, service of existing satellites, operation
    of specialized laboratories (astronomy, earth sciences, materials
    processing, manufacturing), and other operations. These missions will
    eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space
    station. The Orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher
    orbits than can be achieved by the Orbiter itself. Users of the Space
    Shuttle's capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include
    government agencies and private industries.

    The crew normally consists of five people - the commander, the pilot,
    and three mission specialists. On occasion additional crew members are
    assigned. The commander, pilot, and mission specialists are NASA
    astronauts.

    Pilot Astronaut

    Pilot astronauts server as both Space Shuttle commanders and pilots.
    During flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle,
    crew, mission success and safety in flight. The pilot assists the
    commander in controlling and operating the vehicle. In addition, the
    pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing
    the remote manipulator system, in extra-vehicular activities, and other
    payload operations.

    Mission Specialist Astronaut

    Mission specialist astronauts, working with the commander and pilot,
    have overall responsibility for the coordination of Shuttle operations
    in the areas of crew activity planning, consumables usage, and
    experiment and payload operations. Mission specialists are required to
    have a detailed knowledge of Shuttle systems, as well as detailed
    knowledge of the operational characteristics, mission requirements and
    objectives, and supporting systems and equipment for each of the
    experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions. Mission
    specialists will perform extra-vehicular activities, payload handling
    using the remote manipulator system, and perform or assist in specific
    experimental operations.

    Astronaut Candidate Program
    ===========================

    Basic Qualification Requirements
    --------------------------------

    Applicants MUST meet the following minimum requirements prior to
    submitting an application.

    Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidate:

    1. Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering,
    biological science, physical science or mathematics. Degree must be
    followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible,
    professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable and may be
    substituted for part or all of the experience requirement (master's
    degree = 1 year, doctoral degree = 3 years). Quality of academic
    preparation is important.

    2. Ability to pass a NASA class II space physical, which is similar to a
    civilian or military class II flight physical and includes the following
    specific standards:

	 Distant visual acuity:
	      20/150 or better uncorrected,
	      correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	 Blood pressure:
	      140/90 measured in sitting position.

    3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.

    Pilot Astronaut Candidate:

    1. Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering,
    biological science, physical science or mathematics. Degree must be
    followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible,
    professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable. Quality of
    academic preparation is important.

    2. At least 1000 hours pilot-in-command time in jet aircraft. Flight
    test experience highly desirable.

    3. Ability to pass a NASA Class I space physical which is similar to a
    military or civilian Class I flight physical and includes the following
    specific standards:

	 Distant visual acuity:
	      20/50 or better uncorrected
	      correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	 Blood pressure:
	      140/90 measured in sitting position.

    4. Height between 64 and 76 inches.

    Citizenship Requirements

    Applications for the Astronaut Candidate Program must be citizens of
    the United States.

    Note on Academic Requirements

    Applicants for the Astronaut Candidate Program must meet the basic
    education requirements for NASA engineering and scientific positions --
    specifically: successful completion of standard professional curriculum
    in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelor's
    degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering,
    biological science, physical science, or mathematics.

      The following degree fields, while related to engineering and the
    sciences, are not considered qualifying:
      - Degrees in technology (Engineering Technology, Aviation Technology,
	Medical Technology, etc.)
      - Degrees in Psychology (except for Clinical Psychology, Physiological
	Psychology, or Experimental Psychology which are qualifying).
      - Degrees in Nursing.
      - Degrees in social sciences (Geography, Anthropology, Archaeology, etc.)
      - Degrees in Aviation, Aviation Management or similar fields.

    Application Procedures
    ----------------------

    Civilian

    The application package may be obtained by writing to:

	NASA Johnson Space Center
	Astronaut Selection Office
	ATTN: AHX
	Houston, TX 77058

    Civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis. When NASA
    decides to select additional astronaut candidates, consideration will be
    given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is
    made. Applications received after that date will be retained and
    considered for the next selection. Applicants will be notified annually
    of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate
    continued interest in being considered for the program. Those applicants
    who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from
    consideration, and their applications will not be retained. After the
    preliminary screening of applications, additional information may be
    requested for some applicants, and person listed on the application as
    supervisors and references may be contacted.

    Active Duty Military

    Active duty military personnel must submit applications to their
    respective military service and not directly to NASA. Application
    procedures will be disseminated by each service.

    Selection
    ---------

    Personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required
    for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration.
    Once final selections have been made, all applicants who were considered
    will be notified of the outcome of the process.

    Selection rosters established through this process may be used for the
    selection of additional candidates during a one year period following
    their establishment.

    General Program Requirements

    Selected applicants will be designated Astronaut Candidates and will be
    assigned to the Astronaut Office at the Johnson Space Center, Houston,
    Texas. The astronaut candidates will undergo a 1 year training and
    evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or
    scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to
    ongoing programs. They will also participate in the basic astronaut
    training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills
    required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight. Pilot
    astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in NASA aircraft during
    their candidate period.

    Applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does
    not insure selection as an astronaut. Final selection as an astronaut
    will depend on satisfactory completion of the 1 year training and
    evaluation period. Civilian candidates who successfully complete the
    training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become
    permanent Federal employees and will be expected to remain with NASA for
    a period of at least five years. Civilian candidates who are not
    selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within NASA
    depending upon Agency requirements and manpower constraints at that
    time. Successful military candidates will be detailed to NASA for a
    specified tour of duty.

    NASA has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified
    minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates.
    Therefore, qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply.

    Pay and Benefits
    ----------------

    Civilians

    Salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the Federal
    Governments General Schedule pay scales for grades GS-11 through GS-14,
    and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements
    and experience.

    Other benefits include vacation and sick leave, a retirement plan, and
    participation in group health and life insurance plans.

    Military

    Selected military personnel will be detailed to the Johnson Space Center
    but will remain in an active duty status for pay, benefits, leave, and
    other similar military matters.


NEXT: FAQ #15/15 - Orbital and Planetary Launch Services

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1415  How to Become an Astronaut
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csastronaut_733694515
Expires 6 May 1993 200155 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 313
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu

Archivename spaceastronaut
Lastmodified Date 930401 143902 

HOW TO BECOME AN ASTRONAUT

    First the short form authored by Henry Spencer then an official NASA
    announcement

    Q How do I become an astronaut

    A We will assume you mean a NASA astronaut since its probably
    impossible for a nonRussian to get into the cosmonaut corps paying
    passengers are not professional cosmonauts and the other nations have
    so few astronauts and fly even fewer that youre better off hoping to
    win a lottery Becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fastjet
    experience which means a military flying career forget that unless you
    want to do it anyway So you want to become a shuttle mission
    specialist

    If you arent a US citizen become one that is a must  After that
    the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly
    exceeds the supply  NASAs problem is not finding qualified people
    but thinning the lineup down to manageable length	It is not enough
    to be qualified you must avoid being disqualified for any reason
    many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job

    Get a PhD  Specialize in something that involves getting your hands
    dirty with equipment not just paper and pencil  Forget computer
    programming entirely it will be done from the ground for the fore
    seeable future  Degrees in one field plus work experience in
    another seems to be a frequent winner

    Be in good physical condition with good eyesight	DO NOT get a
    radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision nobody knows
    what sudden pressure changes would do to RKed eyes and longterm
    effects are poorly understood  For that matter avoid any other
    significant medical unknowns  If you can pass a jetpilot physical
    you should be okay if you cant your chances are poor

    Practise public speaking and be conservative and conformist in
    appearance and actions youve got a tough selling job ahead trying
    to convince a cautious conservative selection committee that you
    are better than hundreds of other applicants  And also that you
    will be a credit to NASA after you are hired  public relations is
    a significant part of the job and NASAs image is very prim and
    proper  The image you want is squeakyclean workaholic yuppie
    Remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point
    and Security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent
    Keep your nose clean

    Get a pilots license and make flying your number one hobby
    experienced pilots are known to be favored even for nonpilot jobs

    Work for NASA of 45 astronauts selected between 1984 and 1988
    43 were military or NASA employees and the remaining two were
    a NASA consultant and Mae Jemison the first black female astronaut
    If you apply from outside NASA and miss but they offer you a job
    at NASA TAKE IT sometimes in the past this has meant you
    do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first

    Think space  they want highly motivated people so lose no chance
    to demonstrate motivation

    Keep trying  Many astronauts didnt make it the first time




    NASA
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration
    Lyndon B Johnson Space Center
    Houston Texas

    Announcement for Mission Specialist and Pilot Astronaut Candidates
    

    Astronaut Candidate Program
    

    The National Aeronautics and Space Administration NASA has a need for
    Pilot Astronaut Candidates and Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidates
    to support the Space Shuttle Program NASA is now accepting on a
    continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed

    Persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be
    considered

    All positions are located at the Lyndon B Johnson Space Center in
    Houston Texas and will involved a 1year training and evaluation
    program

    Space Shuttle Program Description
    

    The numerous successful flights of the Space Shuttle have demonstrated
    that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming
    routine The Space Shuttle Orbiter is launched into and maneuvers in
    the Earth orbit performing missions lastling up to 30 days It then
    returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and
    flight crew

    The Orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment
    and retrieval of satellites service of existing satellites operation
    of specialized laboratories astronomy earth sciences materials
    processing manufacturing and other operations These missions will
    eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space
    station The Orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher
    orbits than can be achieved by the Orbiter itself Users of the Space
    Shuttles capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include
    government agencies and private industries

    The crew normally consists of five people  the commander the pilot
    and three mission specialists On occasion additional crew members are
    assigned The commander pilot and mission specialists are NASA
    astronauts

    Pilot Astronaut

    Pilot astronauts server as both Space Shuttle commanders and pilots
    During flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle
    crew mission success and safety in flight The pilot assists the
    commander in controlling and operating the vehicle In addition the
    pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing
    the remote manipulator system in extravehicular activities and other
    payload operations

    Mission Specialist Astronaut

    Mission specialist astronauts working with the commander and pilot
    have overall responsibility for the coordination of Shuttle operations
    in the areas of crew activity planning consumables usage and
    experiment and payload operations Mission specialists are required to
    have a detailed knowledge of Shuttle systems as well as detailed
    knowledge of the operational characteristics mission requirements and
    objectives and supporting systems and equipment for each of the
    experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions Mission
    specialists will perform extravehicular activities payload handling
    using the remote manipulator system and perform or assist in specific
    experimental operations

    Astronaut Candidate Program
    

    Basic Qualification Requirements
    

    Applicants MUST meet the following minimum requirements prior to
    submitting an application

    Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidate

    1 Bachelors degree from an accredited institution in engineering
    biological science physical science or mathematics Degree must be
    followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible
    professional experience An advanced degree is desirable and may be
    substituted for part or all of the experience requirement masters
    degree  1 year doctoral degree  3 years Quality of academic
    preparation is important

    2 Ability to pass a NASA class II space physical which is similar to a
    civilian or military class II flight physical and includes the following
    specific standards

	 Distant visual acuity
	      20150 or better uncorrected
	      correctable to 2020 each eye

	 Blood pressure
	      14090 measured in sitting position

    3 Height between 585 and 76 inches

    Pilot Astronaut Candidate

    1 Bachelors degree from an accredited institution in engineering
    biological science physical science or mathematics Degree must be
    followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible
    professional experience An advanced degree is desirable Quality of
    academic preparation is important

    2 At least 1000 hours pilotincommand time in jet aircraft Flight
    test experience highly desirable

    3 Ability to pass a NASA Class I space physical which is similar to a
    military or civilian Class I flight physical and includes the following
    specific standards

	 Distant visual acuity
	      2050 or better uncorrected
	      correctable to 2020 each eye

	 Blood pressure
	      14090 measured in sitting position

    4 Height between 64 and 76 inches

    Citizenship Requirements

    Applications for the Astronaut Candidate Program must be citizens of
    the United States

    Note on Academic Requirements

    Applicants for the Astronaut Candidate Program must meet the basic
    education requirements for NASA engineering and scientific positions 
    specifically successful completion of standard professional curriculum
    in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelors
    degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering
    biological science physical science or mathematics

      The following degree fields while related to engineering and the
    sciences are not considered qualifying
       Degrees in technology Engineering Technology Aviation Technology
	Medical Technology etc
       Degrees in Psychology except for Clinical Psychology Physiological
	Psychology or Experimental Psychology which are qualifying
       Degrees in Nursing
       Degrees in social sciences Geography Anthropology Archaeology etc
       Degrees in Aviation Aviation Management or similar fields

    Application Procedures
    

    Civilian

    The application package may be obtained by writing to

	NASA Johnson Space Center
	Astronaut Selection Office
	ATTN AHX
	Houston TX 77058

    Civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis When NASA
    decides to select additional astronaut candidates consideration will be
    given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is
    made Applications received after that date will be retained and
    considered for the next selection Applicants will be notified annually
    of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate
    continued interest in being considered for the program Those applicants
    who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from
    consideration and their applications will not be retained After the
    preliminary screening of applications additional information may be
    requested for some applicants and person listed on the application as
    supervisors and references may be contacted

    Active Duty Military

    Active duty military personnel must submit applications to their
    respective military service and not directly to NASA Application
    procedures will be disseminated by each service

    Selection
    

    Personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required
    for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration
    Once final selections have been made all applicants who were considered
    will be notified of the outcome of the process

    Selection rosters established through this process may be used for the
    selection of additional candidates during a one year period following
    their establishment

    General Program Requirements

    Selected applicants will be designated Astronaut Candidates and will be
    assigned to the Astronaut Office at the Johnson Space Center Houston
    Texas The astronaut candidates will undergo a 1 year training and
    evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or
    scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to
    ongoing programs They will also participate in the basic astronaut
    training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills
    required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight Pilot
    astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in NASA aircraft during
    their candidate period

    Applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does
    not insure selection as an astronaut Final selection as an astronaut
    will depend on satisfactory completion of the 1 year training and
    evaluation period Civilian candidates who successfully complete the
    training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become
    permanent Federal employees and will be expected to remain with NASA for
    a period of at least five years Civilian candidates who are not
    selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within NASA
    depending upon Agency requirements and manpower constraints at that
    time Successful military candidates will be detailed to NASA for a
    specified tour of duty

    NASA has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified
    minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates
    Therefore qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply

    Pay and Benefits
    

    Civilians

    Salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the Federal
    Governments General Schedule pay scales for grades GS11 through GS14
    and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements
    and experience

    Other benefits include vacation and sick leave a retirement plan and
    participation in group health and life insurance plans

    Military

    Selected military personnel will be detailed to the Johnson Space Center
    but will remain in an active duty status for pay benefits leave and
    other similar military matters


NEXT FAQ 1515  Orbital and Planetary Launch Services

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Moon Colony Prize Race! $6 billion total?
Lines: 26
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

I think if there is to be a prize and such.. There should be "classes"
such as the following:

Large Corp.
Small Corp/Company (based on reported earnings?)
Large Government (GNP and such)
Small Governemtn (or political clout or GNP?)
Large Organization (Planetary Society? and such?)
Small Organization (Alot of small orgs..)

The organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ??

Of course this means the prize might go up. Larger get more or ??
Basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class
winners..
More fair?

There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events,
umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it?).

Any other ideas??
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked



after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Moon Colony Prize Race 6 billion total
Lines 26
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

I think if there is to be a prize and such There should be classes
such as the following

Large Corp
Small CorpCompany based on reported earnings
Large Government GNP and such
Small Governemtn or political clout or GNP
Large Organization Planetary Society and such
Small Organization Alot of small orgs

The organization things would probably have to be nonprofit or liek 

Of course this means the prize might go up Larger get more or 
Basically make the prize total purse 6 billion divided amngst the class
winners
More fair

There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events
umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it

Any other ideas

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked



preprocess doc  From: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Reply-To: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines: 20
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)

In article <1r2aii$ivs@access.digex.net>, prb@access (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>
>I don't know a whole lot on Proton, but given that it is a multi stage
>rocket,  up to 4 stages, it may not really need the Centaur,  plus
>it may end up seriously beating on said centaur.   

The Proton has been used in 2, 3, and 4 stage versions.  The two stage version
was used for the first 3 launches, while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used
today.  The four stage version is used mostly for escape (and geosynchronous?)
orbits, while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits.  Since this is
the version that launched Mir and the Salyuts (and the add-on modules for Mir),
as long as Centaur is smaller than Mir (which I believe it is), it should fit
under the shroud.

I vaguely recall that the Russians are developing a LH2/LOX upper stage for the
Proton.
--
Chris Jones    clj@ksr.com

after prepro  From cljksrcom Chris Jones
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
ReplyTo cljksrcom Chris Jones
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 20
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcom Pat

In article 1r2aiiivsaccessdigexnet prbaccess Pat writes
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo

I dont know a whole lot on Proton but given that it is a multi stage
rocket  up to 4 stages it may not really need the Centaur  plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur   

The Proton has been used in 2 3 and 4 stage versions  The two stage version
was used for the first 3 launches while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used
today  The four stage version is used mostly for escape and geosynchronous
orbits while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits  Since this is
the version that launched Mir and the Salyuts and the addon modules for Mir
as long as Centaur is smaller than Mir which I believe it is it should fit
under the shroud

I vaguely recall that the Russians are developing a LH2LOX upper stage for the
Proton

Chris Jones    cljksrcom

preprocess doc  From: dragon@access.digex.com (Covert C Beach)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer Update - 03/29/93
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL

In article <1pcgaa$do1@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>Now isn't that always the kicker.  It does seem stupid to  drop
>a mission like Magellan, because there isn't  70 million a year
>to keep up the mission.  You'd think  that ongoing science  could
>justify the money.  JPL gets accused of spending more then neccessary,
>probably some validity in that,  but NASA  does put money into some
>things  that really are Porcine.  Oh well.

I attended a colloquium at Goddard last fall where the head of the 
operations section of NASA was talking about what future missions
were going to be funded.  I don't remember his name or title off hand
and I have discarded the colloquia announcement. In any case, he was 
asked about that very matter: "Why can't we spend a few million more
to keep instruments that we already have in place going?"

His responce was that there are only so many $ available to him and
the lead time on an instrument like a COBE, Magellan, Hubble, etc
is 5-10 years minumum.  If he spent all that could be spent on using
current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have
very little to nothing for future projects.  If he did that, sure
in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular,
however starting a few years after he had retired he would become
one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not
funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments.  Just
as he had benefited from his predicessor's funding choices, he owed it
to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new
missions, even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before
the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them.


-- 
Covert C Beach
dragon@access.digex.com

after prepro  From dragonaccessdigexcom Covert C Beach
Subject Re Mars Observer Update  032993
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 33
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords Mars Observer JPL

In article 1pcgaado1accessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Now isnt that always the kicker  It does seem stupid to  drop
a mission like Magellan because there isnt  70 million a year
to keep up the mission  Youd think  that ongoing science  could
justify the money  JPL gets accused of spending more then neccessary
probably some validity in that  but NASA  does put money into some
things  that really are Porcine  Oh well

I attended a colloquium at Goddard last fall where the head of the 
operations section of NASA was talking about what future missions
were going to be funded  I dont remember his name or title off hand
and I have discarded the colloquia announcement In any case he was 
asked about that very matter Why cant we spend a few million more
to keep instruments that we already have in place going

His responce was that there are only so many  available to him and
the lead time on an instrument like a COBE Magellan Hubble etc
is 510 years minumum  If he spent all that could be spent on using
current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have
very little to nothing for future projects  If he did that sure
in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular
however starting a few years after he had retired he would become
one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not
funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments  Just
as he had benefited from his predicessors funding choices he owed it
to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new
missions even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before
the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them


 
Covert C Beach
dragonaccessdigexcom

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins) writes:
>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.


George.

	It's called a democracy.  The majority rules.  sorry.
If ytou don't like it, I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies.   The theory of government
here is that the majority rules,  except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights.   If you really are annoyed,   get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone,  where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone.  Kind of like the national radio quiet zone.  Did you
know about that?  near teh Radio telescope  observatory in West virginia,
they have a 90?????? mile EMCON zone.  Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors, like air conditioners and Vacuums.
In practice, they use it mostly to  control  large radio users.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article  gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be


George

	Its called a democracy  The majority rules  sorry
If ytou dont like it I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies   The theory of government
here is that the majority rules  except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights   If you really are annoyed   get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone  where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone  Kind of like the national radio quiet zone  Did you
know about that  near teh Radio telescope  observatory in West virginia
they have a 90 mile EMCON zone  Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors like air conditioners and Vacuums
In practice they use it mostly to  control  large radio users

pat

preprocess doc  From: ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Keywords: Solar Sail
Organization: Rutherford Appleton Lab, UK
Lines: 79

In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu> snydefj@eng.auburn.edu writes:
>
>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails

I was at an interesting seminar at work (UK's R.A.L. Space Science
Dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project. The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project. I'll typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting. Here goes : 

			The Microlight Solar Sail
			-------------------------

1. Introduction
The solar sail is a well-established concept. Harnessing the pressure of
sunlight, a spacecraft would have unlimited range. In principle, such a
vehicle could explore the whole Solar System with zero fuel consumption.

However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize. The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer. Deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized
fabric which would be necessary to transport a 'conventional' type
spacecraft is a daunting task. This is why, despite the potential of hte
idea, no such craft has actually been launched to date.

2.Design
Recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept: a
tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely
be electronics, with no mechanical parts. Several attitude control
methods are feasible: for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a
panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn.

The key components of the craft will be a minute CCD camera developed at
Edinburgh University which can act as both attitude sensor and data
gathering device; solar cells providing ~1 watt power for control and
communication; and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface
of the sail itself. Launched as a piggyback payload, the total cost of
the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars.

3.Missions
The craft would be capable of some ambitious missions. For example:
a) It could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the Apollo or Amor
groups. Closeup pictures could be transmitted back to Earth at a low bit
rate.
b) It could be steered into a lunar polar orbit. Previously unobserved
areas around the lunar poles could be viewed. By angling the sail to
reflect sunlight downwards, polar craters whose bases never receive
sunlight could be imaged. Bright reflections would confirm that
volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these
locations.[Immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar
base, BTW]
c) It could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet
nucleus. Impacting at low speed, a thin wire probe attached to the craft
causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharp-edged
tube, like performing a biopsy. Returning to Earth, the sail acts as an
ideal re-entry parachute: load per unit area 20 gm/m2 ensures that heat
is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed ~300
deg C. The material sample is recovered, enclosed in a small insulating
container.

Contact: Colin Jack                              Tel. 0865-200447
Oxford Mathematical Designs, 131 High Street, Oxford OX1 4DH, England

--------------------------------

This guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or
seeking details or anything, and would be most happy to send you more
information.

	Andy



-- 
                                  ----------------------------------- 
Andy Jonathan J. Broderick,      | "I have come that they might have |
Rutherford Lab., UK              |  life, and have it to the full"   |
Mail : ajjb@adam2.bnsc.rl.ac.uk  |  - Jesus Christ                   |

after prepro  From ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Keywords Solar Sail
Organization Rutherford Appleton Lab UK
Lines 79

In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu writes

I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
 Sails

I was at an interesting seminar at work UKs RAL Space Science
Dept on this subject specifically on a smallscale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project Ill typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting Here goes  

			The Microlight Solar Sail
			

1 Introduction
The solar sail is a wellestablished concept Harnessing the pressure of
sunlight a spacecraft would have unlimited range In principle such a
vehicle could explore the whole Solar System with zero fuel consumption

However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer Deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized
fabric which would be necessary to transport a conventional type
spacecraft is a daunting task This is why despite the potential of hte
idea no such craft has actually been launched to date

2Design
Recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept a
tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely
be electronics with no mechanical parts Several attitude control
methods are feasible for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a
panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn

The key components of the craft will be a minute CCD camera developed at
Edinburgh University which can act as both attitude sensor and data
gathering device solar cells providing 1 watt power for control and
communication and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface
of the sail itself Launched as a piggyback payload the total cost of
the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars

3Missions
The craft would be capable of some ambitious missions For example
a It could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the Apollo or Amor
groups Closeup pictures could be transmitted back to Earth at a low bit
rate
b It could be steered into a lunar polar orbit Previously unobserved
areas around the lunar poles could be viewed By angling the sail to
reflect sunlight downwards polar craters whose bases never receive
sunlight could be imaged Bright reflections would confirm that
volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these
locations[Immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar
base BTW]
c It could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet
nucleus Impacting at low speed a thin wire probe attached to the craft
causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharpedged
tube like performing a biopsy Returning to Earth the sail acts as an
ideal reentry parachute load per unit area 20 gmm2 ensures that heat
is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed 300
deg C The material sample is recovered enclosed in a small insulating
container

Contact Colin Jack                              Tel 0865200447
Oxford Mathematical Designs 131 High Street Oxford OX1 4DH England



This guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or
seeking details or anything and would be most happy to send you more
information

	Andy



 
                                   
Andy Jonathan J Broderick       I have come that they might have 
Rutherford Lab UK                life and have it to the full   
Mail  ajjbadam2bnscrlacuk     Jesus Christ                   

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Article-I.D.: news.C51rzx.AC3
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 34

nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

[Excellent discussion of DC-X landing techniques by Henry deleted]

>Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??

The DC-X will not take of horizontally.  It takes of vertically. 

>Why do the Martian Landing thing.. 

For several reasons.  Vertical landings don't require miles of runway and limit
noise pollution.  They don't require wheels or wings.  Just turn on the engines
and touch down.  Of course, as Henry pointed out, vetical landings aren't quite
that simple.

>Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
>much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).

Well, to be blunt, yes.  But at least you're learning.

>Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...

The Soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets
just before they hit the ground.  Parachutes are, however, not especially
practical if you want to reuse something without much effort.  The landings
are also not very comfortable.  However, in the words of Georgy Grechko,
"I prefer to have bruises, not to sink."


-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
          "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
            	     seront capable de la realiser"
			 -Jules Verne

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
ArticleID newsC51rzxAC3
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 34

nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

[Excellent discussion of DCX landing techniques by Henry deleted]

Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way

The DCX will not take of horizontally  It takes of vertically 

Why do the Martian Landing thing 

For several reasons  Vertical landings dont require miles of runway and limit
noise pollution  They dont require wheels or wings  Just turn on the engines
and touch down  Of course as Henry pointed out vetical landings arent quite
that simple

Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious

Well to be blunt yes  But at least youre learning

Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts Parachute in then

The Soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets
just before they hit the ground  Parachutes are however not especially
practical if you want to reuse something without much effort  The landings
are also not very comfortable  However in the words of Georgy Grechko
I prefer to have bruises not to sink


 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
          Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
            	     seront capable de la realiser
			 Jules Verne

preprocess doc  From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Re: Had to share this
Organization: St. Andrews University, Scotland.
Lines: 66

In article <1993Apr03.232325.23178@acme.gen.nz> kilroy@acme.gen.nz (earthbound misfit, I) writes:
>bena@dec07.cs.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling) writes:
>
>> Warning - if you are anything like a devout Christian this post is
>> really going to offend and/or upset you.
>
>[...numerous Ctrl-Ls deleted...hehehe...]
>
>> I assume everyone here is familiar with the Christian `fish' symbol.
>> The one on the back of all those Volvos.
>> The one that looks (something) like
>>                __
>>               /  \/
>>               \__/\
>> 
>> Or perhaps more like () ?
>>                      '`
>> 
>> Well, I found out this morning where it comes from ...
>> 
>> It's been stolen from the pagans, like so much else ...
>> 
>> (Last last chance to be blisfully ignorant ;-]
>> 
>> Hmm, how can I put it.
>> 
>> Well, it comes from, this ...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>                  __
>>                  \/
>>                  ()
>>              `__-'`-__'
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sigh, I hate drawing with ascii chars.
>> Still, I think you can work it out from there ...
>
>If you haven't, go read "Skinny Legs and All" by Tom Robbins. If he's even
>50% accurate then most of the modern religions have been "appropriated".
>It's also a great book.
>
>Followups to alt.atheism, whose readers are probably slightly more authorative
>on this.
>
>						- k
>-- 
>Craig Harding            kilroy@acme.gen.nz             ACME BBS +64 6 3551342
>"Jub'er lbh pnyyvat n obmb?"

Craig-

I thought it was derived from a Greek acronym.  My Greek isn't up to much, but
it goes something like this:

	Jesus Christ, God => Iesus CHristos, THeos => Ichthos

which is the Greek for "fish" (as in, eg "ichthysaurus").

Apologies for my dreadful Greek!  Perhaps someone will correct it.

By the way, what does your sig mean?

-Norman

after prepro  From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Re Had to share this
Organization St Andrews University Scotland
Lines 66

In article 1993Apr0323232523178acmegennz kilroyacmegennz earthbound misfit I writes
benadec07csmonasheduau Ben Aveling writes

 Warning  if you are anything like a devout Christian this post is
 really going to offend andor upset you

[numerous CtrlLs deletedhehehe]

 I assume everyone here is familiar with the Christian `fish symbol
 The one on the back of all those Volvos
 The one that looks something like
                __
                 \
               \__\
 
 Or perhaps more like  
                      `
 
 Well I found out this morning where it comes from 
 
 Its been stolen from the pagans like so much else 
 
 Last last chance to be blisfully ignorant ]
 
 Hmm how can I put it
 
 Well it comes from this 
 
 
 
                  __
                  \
                  
              `__`__
 
 
 
 Sigh I hate drawing with ascii chars
 Still I think you can work it out from there 

If you havent go read Skinny Legs and All by Tom Robbins If hes even
50 accurate then most of the modern religions have been appropriated
Its also a great book

Followups to altatheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative
on this

						 k
 
Craig Harding            kilroyacmegennz             ACME BBS 64 6 3551342
Juber lbh pnyyvat n obmb

Craig

I thought it was derived from a Greek acronym  My Greek isnt up to much but
it goes something like this

	Jesus Christ God  Iesus CHristos THeos  Ichthos

which is the Greek for fish as in eg ichthysaurus

Apologies for my dreadful Greek  Perhaps someone will correct it

By the way what does your sig mean

Norman

preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu>, schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.130503.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>|> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
>|> > With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints 
>|> > by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about 
>|> > that might just work.
>|> > 
>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
>|> > Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
>|> > to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
>|> > 
>|> > --
>|> >   gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
>|> > theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
>|> ====
>|> If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
>|> resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
>|> in Australia..
>|> Anybody game for a contest!
>|> 
>|> ==
>|> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
>
>
>Oh gee, a billion dollars!  That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>feasability study!  Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
>

Feasability study??  What a wimp!!  While you are studying, others would be
doing.  Too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering.

"He who sits on his arse sits on his fortune"  - Sir Richard Francis Burton
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Lines 42
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes
In article 1993Apr191305031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
  With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints 
  by government over the large cost why not try something I read about 
  that might just work
  
  Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
  who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
  Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
  to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
  
  
    genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
  theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
 
 If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
 resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
 in Australia
 Anybody game for a contest
 
 
 Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


Oh gee a billion dollars  Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study  Happy Happy JOY JOY


Feasability study  What a wimp  While you are studying others would be
doing  Too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering

He who sits on his arse sits on his fortune   Sir Richard Francis Burton

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood  We need
pyronskndivdsegticom          solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909                     


preprocess doc  From: fleice_mike@tandem.com (Mike Fleice)
Subject: Last call: S/W wizard position at Tandem (Cupertino CA)
Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.252.132.77
Organization: Tandem Computers Incorporated, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 28

Well, we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting
responders. However, just in case the other posting was overlooked by an
incredibly talented person ... Mea Culpa for posting this here for Mike,
but we're looking for someone special:

   Tandem Computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help
 us architect & implement a fault-tolerant generalized instrumentation
 subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel (TNS
 Kernel). The TNS Kernel is a proprietary, loosely-coupled parallel,
 message-based operating system. The TNS Kernel has wide connectivity
 to open standards.
   In this key individual contributor role, you will work with other
 developers working on various components of the Transaction Management
 Facility.
   Your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories
 (3 of 4 would be excellent):
   Category 1. Math: Working knowledge of statistics, real analysis, as
 used in experimental physics or chemistry, or in engineering.
   Category 2. Working knowledge of telemetry issues-- i.e. time series,
 autocorrelation, and statistical correlation of data streams.
   Category 3. Integration & Test -- Instrumentation of systems under test,
 i.e. payloads, flight modules, etc.
   Category 4: Software Engineering: programming skills, algorithms, and
 systems software techniques.

   Please send your resume to Mike Fleice, Tandem Computers 10555
 Ridgeview Ct., LOC 100-27, Cupertino, CA 95014-0789; Fax (408) 285-0813;
 or e-mail fleice_mike@tandem.com

after prepro  From fleice_miketandemcom Mike Fleice
Subject Last call SW wizard position at Tandem Cupertino CA
NntpPostingHost 13025213277
Organization Tandem Computers Incorporated Cupertino CA
Lines 28

Well we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting
responders However just in case the other posting was overlooked by an
incredibly talented person  Mea Culpa for posting this here for Mike
but were looking for someone special

   Tandem Computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help
 us architect  implement a faulttolerant generalized instrumentation
 subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel TNS
 Kernel The TNS Kernel is a proprietary looselycoupled parallel
 messagebased operating system The TNS Kernel has wide connectivity
 to open standards
   In this key individual contributor role you will work with other
 developers working on various components of the Transaction Management
 Facility
   Your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories
 3 of 4 would be excellent
   Category 1 Math Working knowledge of statistics real analysis as
 used in experimental physics or chemistry or in engineering
   Category 2 Working knowledge of telemetry issues ie time series
 autocorrelation and statistical correlation of data streams
   Category 3 Integration  Test  Instrumentation of systems under test
 ie payloads flight modules etc
   Category 4 Software Engineering programming skills algorithms and
 systems software techniques

   Please send your resume to Mike Fleice Tandem Computers 10555
 Ridgeview Ct LOC 10027 Cupertino CA 950140789 Fax 408 2850813
 or email fleice_miketandemcom

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 5

The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
finished writing a sequel to the Bible.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 5

The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible


mathew

preprocess doc   cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
 <930401.112329.0u1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> <11710@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
Lines: 17

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>  And in the US, even that argument doesn't stand.  It costs far
>  more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed,
>  clothe, and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life.
>  Some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system.  I
>  find it to be one of it's greatest virtues.

I assume that you are talking about the appeals processes, etc.?
Well, it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life
will also tend to appeal (though not quite as much in the "final
hours."

Anyway, economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose
the punishment.

keith

after prepro   csutexaseduuunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re  11710viceICOTEKCOM
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
Lines 17

bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

  And in the US even that argument doesnt stand  It costs far
  more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed
  clothe and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life
  Some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system  I
  find it to be one of its greatest virtues

I assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc
Well it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life
will also tend to appeal though not quite as much in the final
hours

Anyway economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose
the punishment

keith

preprocess doc  From: nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Lines: 13

jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:



>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.

I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB. No more info as to the location in the SRB.
I agree, pretty weird.

after prepro  From nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Organization Evans  Sutherland Computer Corp
Lines 13

jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes



effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case

I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB No more info as to the location in the SRB
I agree pretty weird

preprocess doc  From:  (Rashid)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 34

> What about the Twelve Imams, who he considered incapable of error
> or sin? Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans. This is
> heresy for the very reasons I gave above. 

I would be happy to discuss the  issue of the 12 Imams with you, although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup.  I feel a philosophy
or religion group would be more appropriate. The topic is deeply
embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet (S.A.). Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical
substance of man's being and nature.

A good introductory book (in fact one of the best introductory
books to Islam in general) is Murtaza Mutahhari's "Fundamental's
of Islamic Thought - God, Man, and the Universe" - Mizan Press,
translated by R. Campbell. Truly a beautiful book. A follow-up book
(if you can find a decent translation) is "Wilaya - The Station
of the Master" by the same author. I think it also goes under the
title of "Master and Mastership" - It's a very small book - really
just a transcription of a lecture by the author.
The introduction to the beautiful "Psalms of Islam" - translated
by William C. Chittick (available through Muhammadi Trust of
Great Britain) is also an excellent introduction to the subject. We
have these books in our University library - I imagine any well
stocked University library will have them.

From your posts, you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought. You
should seek to know Shi'ite thought through knowledgeable 
Shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled.

As salaam a-laikum

after prepro  From  Rashid
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 34

 What about the Twelve Imams who he considered incapable of error
 or sin Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans This is
 heresy for the very reasons I gave above 

I would be happy to discuss the  issue of the 12 Imams with you although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup  I feel a philosophy
or religion group would be more appropriate The topic is deeply
embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet SA Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical
substance of mans being and nature

A good introductory book in fact one of the best introductory
books to Islam in general is Murtaza Mutahharis Fundamentals
of Islamic Thought  God Man and the Universe  Mizan Press
translated by R Campbell Truly a beautiful book A followup book
if you can find a decent translation is Wilaya  The Station
of the Master by the same author I think it also goes under the
title of Master and Mastership  Its a very small book  really
just a transcription of a lecture by the author
The introduction to the beautiful Psalms of Islam  translated
by William C Chittick available through Muhammadi Trust of
Great Britain is also an excellent introduction to the subject We
have these books in our University library  I imagine any well
stocked University library will have them

From your posts you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought You
should seek to know Shiite thought through knowledgeable 
Shiite authors as well  at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled

As salaam alaikum

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
>"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.

That's right.  Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though.  Perhaps
our goal is one of self-actualization.

>But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
>term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
>other species, either terrestrial or alien.

Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me.  This
was not part of the original premise.

>Does that make it moral to do so?

Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
adversely affect your own, I guess).

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive

Thats right  Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though  Perhaps
our goal is one of selfactualization

But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
other species either terrestrial or alien

Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me  This
was not part of the original premise

Does that make it moral to do so

Which type of morality are you talking about  In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess

keith

preprocess doc  From: buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke)
Subject: DC-X Rollout Report
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 124


McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X

        HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. -- On a picture-perfect Southern
California day, McDonnell Douglas rolled out its DC-X rocket ship last
Saturday.  The company hopes this single-stage rocket technology
demonstrator will be the first step towards a single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO)
rocket ship.

        The white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico this week.  Flight tests will start in
mid-June.

        Although there wasn't a cloud in the noonday sky, the forecast for
SSTO research remains cloudy.  The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
follow-on vehicle.  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
a sub-orbital DC-XA, SDIO is passing a tin cup among its sister government
agencies.

        SDIO originally funded SSTO research as a way to cut the costs for
orbital deployments of space-based sensors and weapns.  However, recent
changes in SDI's political marching orders and budget cuts have made SSTO
less of a priority.  Today, the agency is more interested in using DC-X as
a step towards a low-cost, reusable sounding rocket.

        SDIO has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies,
said Col.  Simon "Pete" Worden, SDIO's deputy for technology.  But Worden
declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the
program. "I didn't make colonel by telling my contractors how much money I
have available to spend," he quipped at a press conference at McDonnell
Douglas Astronautics headquarters.

        While SDIO has lowered its sights on the program's orbital
objective, agency officials hail the DC-X as an example of the "better,
faster, cheaper" approach to hardware development.  The agency believes
this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that "leapfrog" ahead of
evolutionary technology developments.

        Worden said the DC-X illustrates how a "build a little, test a
little" approach can produce results on time and within budget.  He said
the program -- which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months --
showed how today's engineers could move beyond the "miracles of our
parents' time."

        "The key is management," Worden said. "SDIO had a very light hand
on this project.  We had only one overworked major, Jess Sponable."

        Although the next phase may involve more agencies, Worden said
lean management and a sense of government-industry partnership will be
crucial. "It's essential we do not end up with a large management
structure where the price goes up exponentially."

        SDIO's approach also won praise from two California members of the
House Science, Space and Technology Committee. "This is the direction
we're going to have to go," said Rep.  George Brown, the committee's
Democratic chairman. "Programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years aren't
sustainable....NASA hasn't learned it yet.  SDIO has."

        Rep.  Dana Rohrbacher, Brown's Republican colleague, went further.
Joking that "a shrimp is a fish designed by a NASA design team,"
Rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it
were left to the civil space agency.

        Rohrbacher, whose Orange County district includes McDonnell
Douglas, also criticized NASA-Air Force work on conventional, multi-staged
rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology. "Let's not
build fancy ammunition with capsules on top.  Let's build a spaceship!"

         Although Rohrbacher praised SDIO's sponsorship, he said the
private sector needs to take the lead in developing SSTO technology.

        McDonnell Douglas, which faces very uncertain prospects with its
C-17 transport and Space Station Freedom programs, were more cautious
about a large private secotro commitment. "On very large ventures,
companies put in seed money," said Charles Ordahl, McDonnell Douglas'
senior vice president for space systems. "You need strong government
investments."

        While the government and industry continue to differ on funding
for the DC-XA, they agree on continuing an incremental approach to
development.  Citing corporate history, they liken the process to Douglas
Aircraft's DC aircraft.  Just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for
the DC-3 transport, a gradual evolution in single-stage rocketry could
eventually lead to an orbital Delta Clipper (DC-1).

        Flight tests this summer at White Sands will "expand the envelope"
of performance, with successive tests increasing speed and altitude.  The
first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering, verticle
take-off and landing.  The second series will send the unmanned DC-X up to
5,000 feet.  The third and final series will take the craft up to 20,000
feet.

        Maneuvers will become more complex on third phase.  The final
tests will include a "pitch-over" manever that rotates the vehicle back
into a bottom-down configuration for a soft, four-legged landing.

        The flight test series will be supervised by Charles "Pete"
Conrad, who performed similar maneuvers on the Apollo 12 moon landing.
Now a McDonnell Douglas vice president, Conrad paised the vehicles
aircraft-like approach to operations.  Features include automated
check-out and access panels for easy maintainance.

        If the program moves to the next stage, engine technology will
become a key consideration.  This engine would have more thrust than the
Pratt & Whitney RL10A-5 engines used on the DC-X.  Each motor uses liquid
hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14,760 pounds of
thrust

        Based on the engine used in Centaur upper stages, the A-5 model
has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and three-to-on
throttling capability.  It also is designed for repeat firings and rapid
turnaround.

        Worden said future single-stage rockets could employ
tri-propellant engine technology developed in the former Soviet Union.
The resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and
then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes.

        The mechanism for the teaming may already be in place.  Pratt has
a technology agreement with NPO Energomash, the design bureau responsible
for the tri-propellant and Energia cryogenic engines.



after prepro  From buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke
Subject DCX Rollout Report
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 124


McDonnell Douglas rolls out DCX

        HUNTINGTON BEACH Calif  On a pictureperfect Southern
California day McDonnell Douglas rolled out its DCX rocket ship last
Saturday  The company hopes this singlestage rocket technology
demonstrator will be the first step towards a singlestagetoorbit SSTO
rocket ship

        The white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico this week  Flight tests will start in
midJune

        Although there wasnt a cloud in the noonday sky the forecast for
SSTO research remains cloudy  The SDI Organization  which paid 60
million for the DCX  cant itself afford to fund full development of a
followon vehicle  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
a suborbital DCXA SDIO is passing a tin cup among its sister government
agencies

        SDIO originally funded SSTO research as a way to cut the costs for
orbital deployments of spacebased sensors and weapns  However recent
changes in SDIs political marching orders and budget cuts have made SSTO
less of a priority  Today the agency is more interested in using DCX as
a step towards a lowcost reusable sounding rocket

        SDIO has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies
said Col  Simon Pete Worden SDIOs deputy for technology  But Worden
declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the
program I didnt make colonel by telling my contractors how much money I
have available to spend he quipped at a press conference at McDonnell
Douglas Astronautics headquarters

        While SDIO has lowered its sights on the programs orbital
objective agency officials hail the DCX as an example of the better
faster cheaper approach to hardware development  The agency believes
this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that leapfrog ahead of
evolutionary technology developments

        Worden said the DCX illustrates how a build a little test a
little approach can produce results on time and within budget  He said
the program  which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months 
showed how todays engineers could move beyond the miracles of our
parents time

        The key is management Worden said SDIO had a very light hand
on this project  We had only one overworked major Jess Sponable

        Although the next phase may involve more agencies Worden said
lean management and a sense of governmentindustry partnership will be
crucial Its essential we do not end up with a large management
structure where the price goes up exponentially

        SDIOs approach also won praise from two California members of the
House Science Space and Technology Committee This is the direction
were going to have to go said Rep  George Brown the committees
Democratic chairman Programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years arent
sustainableNASA hasnt learned it yet  SDIO has

        Rep  Dana Rohrbacher Browns Republican colleague went further
Joking that a shrimp is a fish designed by a NASA design team
Rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it
were left to the civil space agency

        Rohrbacher whose Orange County district includes McDonnell
Douglas also criticized NASAAir Force work on conventional multistaged
rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology Lets not
build fancy ammunition with capsules on top  Lets build a spaceship

         Although Rohrbacher praised SDIOs sponsorship he said the
private sector needs to take the lead in developing SSTO technology

        McDonnell Douglas which faces very uncertain prospects with its
C17 transport and Space Station Freedom programs were more cautious
about a large private secotro commitment On very large ventures
companies put in seed money said Charles Ordahl McDonnell Douglas
senior vice president for space systems You need strong government
investments

        While the government and industry continue to differ on funding
for the DCXA they agree on continuing an incremental approach to
development  Citing corporate history they liken the process to Douglas
Aircrafts DC aircraft  Just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for
the DC3 transport a gradual evolution in singlestage rocketry could
eventually lead to an orbital Delta Clipper DC1

        Flight tests this summer at White Sands will expand the envelope
of performance with successive tests increasing speed and altitude  The
first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering verticle
takeoff and landing  The second series will send the unmanned DCX up to
5000 feet  The third and final series will take the craft up to 20000
feet

        Maneuvers will become more complex on third phase  The final
tests will include a pitchover manever that rotates the vehicle back
into a bottomdown configuration for a soft fourlegged landing

        The flight test series will be supervised by Charles Pete
Conrad who performed similar maneuvers on the Apollo 12 moon landing
Now a McDonnell Douglas vice president Conrad paised the vehicles
aircraftlike approach to operations  Features include automated
checkout and access panels for easy maintainance

        If the program moves to the next stage engine technology will
become a key consideration  This engine would have more thrust than the
Pratt  Whitney RL10A5 engines used on the DCX  Each motor uses liquid
hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14760 pounds of
thrust

        Based on the engine used in Centaur upper stages the A5 model
has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and threetoon
throttling capability  It also is designed for repeat firings and rapid
turnaround

        Worden said future singlestage rockets could employ
tripropellant engine technology developed in the former Soviet Union
The resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and
then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes

        The mechanism for the teaming may already be in place  Pratt has
a technology agreement with NPO Energomash the design bureau responsible
for the tripropellant and Energia cryogenic engines



preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


In article <1qn044$gq5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>I thought that under emergency conditions,  the STS  can
>put down at any good size Airport.  IF it could take a C-5 or a
>747, then it can take an orbiter.   You just need a VOR/TAC
>
>I don't know if they need ILS.

DFW was designed with the STS in mind (which really mean very little).  Much of
their early PR material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three
others pulled up to gates.  I guess they were trying to stress how advanced the
airport was.

For Dallas types:  Imagine the fit Grapevine and Irving would be having if the
shuttle WAS landing at DFW. (For the rest, they are currently having some power
struggles between the airport and surrounding cities).
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


In article 1qn044gq5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
I thought that under emergency conditions  the STS  can
put down at any good size Airport  IF it could take a C5 or a
747 then it can take an orbiter   You just need a VORTAC

I dont know if they need ILS

DFW was designed with the STS in mind which really mean very little  Much of
their early PR material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three
others pulled up to gates  I guess they were trying to stress how advanced the
airport was

For Dallas types  Imagine the fit Grapevine and Irving would be having if the
shuttle WAS landing at DFW For the rest they are currently having some power
struggles between the airport and surrounding cities

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood  We need
pyronskndivdsegticom          solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909                     


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Lines: 32
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:
> In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> 
>>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>>technology base... and on government contracts.  Just doing it privately,
>>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
> 
> So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
> U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 
> 
> 
> 
>     Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
>   -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --


Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad? Directly I mean..
I know of a few that could launch a small package into space.
Not including Ariadne, and the Russian Sites.. I know "Poker Flats" here in
Alaska, thou used to be only sounding rockets for Auroral Borealous(sp and
other northern atmospheric items, is at last I heard being upgraded to be able
to put sattelites into orbit. 

Why must people in the US be fixed on using NASAs direct resources (Poker Flats
is runin part by NASA, but also by the Univesity of Alaska, and the Geophysical
Institute). Sounds like typical US cultural centralism and protectionism..
And people wonder why we have the multi-trillion dollar deficite(sp).
Yes, I am working on a spell checker..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Lines 32
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes
 In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 
Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts  Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
 
 So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
 US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 
 
 
 
     Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                      SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         


Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad Directly I mean
I know of a few that could launch a small package into space
Not including Ariadne and the Russian Sites I know Poker Flats here in
Alaska thou used to be only sounding rockets for Auroral Borealoussp and
other northern atmospheric items is at last I heard being upgraded to be able
to put sattelites into orbit 

Why must people in the US be fixed on using NASAs direct resources Poker Flats
is runin part by NASA but also by the Univesity of Alaska and the Geophysical
Institute Sounds like typical US cultural centralism and protectionism
And people wonder why we have the multitrillion dollar deficitesp
Yes I am working on a spell checker


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 12

James Felder (spbach@lerc.nasa.gov) wrote:

: Logic alert -  argument from incredulity.  Just because it is hard for you 
: to believe this doesn't mean that it isn't true.  Liars can be very pursuasive
: just look at Koresh that you yourself cite.

This is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the Christian
account of things. In the words of St. Madalyn Murrey-O'Hair, "Face it
folks, it's just silly ...". Why is it okay to disbelieve because of
your incredulity if you admit that it's a fallacy?

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 12

James Felder spbachlercnasagov wrote

 Logic alert   argument from incredulity  Just because it is hard for you 
 to believe this doesnt mean that it isnt true  Liars can be very pursuasive
 just look at Koresh that you yourself cite

This is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the Christian
account of things In the words of St Madalyn MurreyOHair Face it
folks its just silly  Why is it okay to disbelieve because of
your incredulity if you admit that its a fallacy

Bill

preprocess doc  From: richard@harlqn.co.uk (Richard Brooksby)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Harlequin Ltd, Cambridge, UK
Lines: 21

Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> > More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
>
> There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of
> both atheists AND theists.  ...  Perhaps, since I'm a bit weak on
> history, somone here would like to give a list of wars caused/led by
> theists? ...

This thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint
according to some utilitarian principle, i.e. atheism/religion is
wrong because it causes death.  The underlying `moral' is that death
is `wrong'.  This is a rather arbitrary measure of validity.

Get some epistemology.
---
richard@harlequin.com		  (Internet)
richard@harlequin.co.uk           (Internet)
RPTB1@UK.AC.CAMBRIDGE.PHOENIX     (JANET)
Zen Buddhist

after prepro  From richardharlqncouk Richard Brooksby
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Harlequin Ltd Cambridge UK
Lines 21

Nanci Ann Miller  writes

 snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
  More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else

 There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of
 both atheists AND theists    Perhaps since Im a bit weak on
 history somone here would like to give a list of wars causedled by
 theists 

This thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint
according to some utilitarian principle ie atheismreligion is
wrong because it causes death  The underlying `moral is that death
is `wrong  This is a rather arbitrary measure of validity

Get some epistemology

richardharlequincom		  Internet
richardharlequincouk           Internet
RPTB1UKACCAMBRIDGEPHOENIX     JANET
Zen Buddhist

preprocess doc  From: PPORTH@hq.nasa.gov ("Tricia Porth (202")
Subject: Remote Sensing Data
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 137

=================================================================
I am posting this for someone else.  Please respond to the 
address listed below.  Please also excuse the duplication as this 
message has been crossposted.  Thanks!
=================================================================
 
 
      REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES 
                             VIA THE INTERNET
 
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data.  This effort will:
 
  o   Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research 
      Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth 
      Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs.
 
  o   Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and 
      Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education 
      Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of 
      science data and images and value added products.
 
  o   Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in 
      cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd, 
      DOI/USGS, and USDA). 
 
  o   Support remote sensing image and data users and development 
      communities. 
 
The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as
part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g., 
television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture 
specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and
aqua business.
 
This program will be initiated in 1994.  Your assistance is requested to 
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data.  We would 
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan.
 
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS.  
 
We are seeking your ideas in these areas: 
 
  (1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images; 
 
  (2)  Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in 
       education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas;
 
  (3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more 
       accessible;
 
  (4)  Additional points of contacts for ideas; and 
 
  (5)  Addresses and names  from whom to request proposals. 
 
For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below.  Feel
free to amend it as necessary.  Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by
May 5, 1993.
 
E-MAIL:   On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov"  ASCII  - No binary 
attachments please
 
FAX:   Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098
 
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP 
directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov.  Please indicate the format. 
Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and 
RTF.  
 
 
 
----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT--------------------------
 
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
 
(1)  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images  (if possible,
identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and
standards).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(2)  Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels
K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types
of data or science products, user tools, and standards). 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(3)  Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards,
and user tools)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(4)  Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for 
further ideas on applications areas.  Please include: Name, Organization, 
Address and Telephone Number.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(5)  Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed.  Please 
include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number.
 
 
 
(6)  We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote 
sensing data do not use the data.  Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats,
poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?
 
 
 
 
 
(7)  In case we have questions, please send us your name, address, phone number
(and e-mail address if you have one).  If you don't wish to send us this
information, feel free to respond to the survey anonymously.  Thank you for
your assistance. 
 
 

after prepro  From PPORTHhqnasagov Tricia Porth 202
Subject Remote Sensing Data
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
MmdfWarning Parse error in original version of preceding line at VACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 137


I am posting this for someone else  Please respond to the 
address listed below  Please also excuse the duplication as this 
message has been crossposted  Thanks

 
 
      REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES 
                             VIA THE INTERNET
 
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data  This effort will
 
  o   Use the evolving infrastructure of the US Global Change Research 
      Program including the Mission To Planet Earth MTPE and the Earth 
      Observing System Data and Information System EOSDIS Programs
 
  o   Use the Internet particularly the High Performance Computing and 
      Communications Programs NREN National Research and Education 
      Network as a means of providing access to and distribution of 
      science data and images and value added products
 
  o   Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in 
      cooperation with other agencies especially NOAA EPA DOE DEd 
      DOIUSGS and USDA 
 
  o   Support remote sensing image and data users and development 
      communities 
 
The user and development communities to be included but not limited to as
part of this effort are educators commercial application developers eg 
television weather forecasters librarians publishers agriculture 
specialists transportation forestry state and local government planners and
aqua business
 
This program will be initiated in 1994  Your assistance is requested to 
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data  We would 
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan
 
PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS  
 
We are seeking your ideas in these areas 
 
  1  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images 
 
  2  Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in 
       education especially levels K12 and other noncommercial areas
 
  3  Types of online capabilities and protocols to make the data more 
       accessible
 
  4  Additional points of contacts for ideas and 
 
  5  Addresses and names  from whom to request proposals 
 
For your convenience a standard format for responses is included below  Feel
free to amend it as necessary  Either email or fax your responses to us by
May 5 1993
 
EMAIL   On Internet rsdwgorionossahqnasagov  ASCII   No binary 
attachments please
 
FAX   Ernie Lucier co RSDWG NASA HQ FAX 2023583098
 
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP 
directory ftppubRSDWG on orionnasagov  Please indicate the format 
Acceptable formats are Word for Windows 2X Macintosh Word 4X and 5X and 
RTF  
 
 
 
RESPONSE FORMAT
 
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
 
1  Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images  if possible
identify the relevant types of data or science products user tools and
standards
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
2  Uses of remote sensing data and images in education especially levels
K12 and other noncommercial areas if possible identify the relevant types
of data or science products user tools and standards 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
3  Types of online capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible if possible identify relevant types of formats standards
and user tools
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
4  Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for 
further ideas on applications areas  Please include Name Organization 
Address and Telephone Number
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
5  Organizations mailing lists electronic and paper periodicals etc to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed  Please 
include Name Organization Address and Telephone Number
 
 
 
6  We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote 
sensing data do not use the data  Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators or high cost lack of accessibility incompatible data formats
poor area of interest coverage inadequate spatial or spectral resolution 
 
 
 
 
 
7  In case we have questions please send us your name address phone number
and email address if you have one  If you dont wish to send us this
information feel free to respond to the survey anonymously  Thank you for
your assistance 
 
 

preprocess doc  From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Venus Lander for Venus Conditions.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 8


  I doubt there are good prospects for  a self armoring system
for venus surface conditions (several hundred degrees, very high
pressure of CO2, possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides
but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might
pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying
deeper penetration.  A nice creative idea, unlikly but worthy of
thinking about.

after prepro  From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Venus Lander for Venus Conditions
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Lines 8


  I doubt there are good prospects for  a self armoring system
for venus surface conditions several hundred degrees very high
pressure of CO2 possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides
but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might
pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying
deeper penetration  A nice creative idea unlikly but worthy of
thinking about

preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
In-Reply-To: healta@saturn.wwc.edu's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02: 51:29 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
	<healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>
Lines: 47

>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02:51:29 GMT, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) said:
TRH> I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
TRH> ve given me.

But you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return.  This
person instead has posted one of the worst arguments I have ever seen
made from the pro-Christian people.  I've known several Jesuits who would
laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them.

Let's ignore the fact that it's not a true trilemma for the moment (nice
word Maddi, original or is it a real word?) and concentrate on the
liar, lunatic part.

The argument claims that no one would follow a liar, let alone thousands
of people.  Look at L. Ron Hubbard.  Now, he was probably not all there,
but I think he was mostly a liar and a con-artist.  But look at how many
thousands of people follow Dianetics and Scientology.  I think the 
Baker's and Swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all
the time, but look at the number of follower they have.

As for lunatics, the best example is Hitler.  He was obviously insane,
his advisors certainly thought so.  Yet he had a whole country entralled
and came close to ruling all of Europe.  How many Germans gave their lives
for him?  To this day he has his followers.

I'm just amazed that people still try to use this argument.  It's just
so obviously *wrong*.
















--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re some thoughts
InReplyTo healtasaturnwwcedus message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 02 5129 GMT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
	
Lines 47

 On Fri 16 Apr 1993 025129 GMT healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy said
TRH I hope youre not going to flame him  Please give him the same coutesy you
TRH ve given me

But you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return  This
person instead has posted one of the worst arguments I have ever seen
made from the proChristian people  Ive known several Jesuits who would
laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them

Lets ignore the fact that its not a true trilemma for the moment nice
word Maddi original or is it a real word and concentrate on the
liar lunatic part

The argument claims that no one would follow a liar let alone thousands
of people  Look at L Ron Hubbard  Now he was probably not all there
but I think he was mostly a liar and a conartist  But look at how many
thousands of people follow Dianetics and Scientology  I think the 
Bakers and Swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all
the time but look at the number of follower they have

As for lunatics the best example is Hitler  He was obviously insane
his advisors certainly thought so  Yet he had a whole country entralled
and came close to ruling all of Europe  How many Germans gave their lives
for him  To this day he has his followers

Im just amazed that people still try to use this argument  Its just
so obviously wrong

















Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 46

In article <1qla0g$afp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <115565@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>|> >I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>|> >ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>|> >community in the Uk and elsewhere.

>|> Grow up, childish propagandist.

>Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
>things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
>them to be upsets you..

You have done no such thing.


>BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
>what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
>operators?

An Islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules
of Islam in regard to banking. This is done explicitly by the
bank. This was not the case with BCCI.

>And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
>BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
>the street?   

This is crap. BCCI was motivated by the same motives as other
international banks, with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with
outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments.

>So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all 
>work out right next time.

Back to childish propaganda again. You really ought to get a life
rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing. There are thousands
of Islamic banks operating throughout the world which no-one ever hears
about. If you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about
all the people who've been robbed by American banks. 


Gregg




after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 46

In article 1qla0gafpfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

 I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
 ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
 community in the Uk and elsewhere

 Grow up childish propagandist

Gregg Im really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things arent quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you

You have done no such thing


BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank 
what will someone bet me they werent real Islamic owners and
operators

An Islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules
of Islam in regard to banking This is done explicitly by the
bank This was not the case with BCCI

And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interestmotivated western bank down
the street   

This is crap BCCI was motivated by the same motives as other
international banks with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with
outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments

So please dont try to con us into thinking that it will all 
work out right next time

Back to childish propaganda again You really ought to get a life
rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing There are thousands
of Islamic banks operating throughout the world which noone ever hears
about If you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about
all the people whove been robbed by American banks 


Gregg




preprocess doc  From: dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist)
Organization: Visix Software, Reston, Virginia
Lines: 11

dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
[Lots of trippy stuff deleted]

Wow...  What is this guy smoking and WHERE can I GET SOME?

Dan
-- 
Daniel K. Appelquist|QUANTA is the electronically published and distributed
dan@visix.com       |magazine of science fiction  and  fantasy.   For  more
703-758-2712        |information, send  mail to  quanta+@andrew.cmu.edu or,
703-758-0233 (Fax)  |for back issues, ftp export.acs.cmu.edu, id:anonymous.

after prepro  From danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist
Organization Visix Software Reston Virginia
Lines 11

dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
[Lots of trippy stuff deleted]

Wow  What is this guy smoking and WHERE can I GET SOME

Dan
 
Daniel K AppelquistQUANTA is the electronically published and distributed
danvisixcom       magazine of science fiction  and  fantasy   For  more
7037582712        information send  mail to  quantaandrewcmuedu or
7037580233 Fax  for back issues ftp exportacscmuedu idanonymous

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
From: thacker@rhea.arc.ab.ca
Organization: Alberta Research Council
Nntp-Posting-Host: rhea.arc.ab.ca
Lines: 13

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au>, enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:

<<<most of message deleted>>>

> What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
> it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).

> Really, really depressed.
> 
>              Enzo

No need to be depressed about this one.  Lights aren't on during the day
so there shouldn't be any daytime light pollution.

after prepro  Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
From thackerrheaarcabca
Organization Alberta Research Council
NntpPostingHost rheaarcabca
Lines 13

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes



 What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
 it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night

 Really really depressed
 
              Enzo

No need to be depressed about this one  Lights arent on during the day
so there shouldnt be any daytime light pollution

preprocess doc  From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: RE: Looking for a little research help
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 6
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com

Found it! Thanks. I got several offers for help. I appreciate it and
will be contacting those people via e-mail.

Thanks again...

jennise

after prepro  From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject RE Looking for a little research help
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 6
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom

Found it Thanks I got several offers for help I appreciate it and
will be contacting those people via email

Thanks again

jennise

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Keywords: Solar Sail
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 25

ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick) writes:

>In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu> snydefj@eng.auburn.edu writes:
>>
>>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>> Sails

>I was at an interesting seminar at work (UK's R.A.L. Space Science
>Dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale Solar Sail
>proposed as a student space project. The guy giving the talk was keen to
>generate interest in the project. I'll typein the handout he gave out at
>the meeting. Here goes : 

[Stuff deleted] 

>However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
>people realize. The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
>square kilometer.     ^^^^                                   ^^^^    

I'm glad to see that someone is working on this.  However, it would be nice if
he got his units right.
-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Keywords Solar Sail
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 25

ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick writes

In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu writes

I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
 Sails

I was at an interesting seminar at work UKs RAL Space Science
Dept on this subject specifically on a smallscale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project Ill typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting Here goes  

[Stuff deleted] 

However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer     ^^^^                                   ^^^^    

Im glad to see that someone is working on this  However it would be nice if
he got his units right
 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 36
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr3.071823.13253@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
|> In article <1pj2b6$aaa@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr3.033446.10669@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
|> >|>Er, Jon, what Ken said was:
|> >|> 
|> >|> There have previously been people like you in your country.  Unfortunately,
|> >|>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >|> most Jews did not survive.
|> >|> 
|> >|>That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi.
|> >

[my previous posting deleted]

|> 
|> Yes, yes.  This is a perfectly fine rant, and I agree with it completely.
|> But what does it have to do with anything?  The issue at hand here
|> is whether or not Ken accused the fellow from Germany of being a
|> Nazi.  I grant that he did not explicity make this accusation, but
|> he came pretty damn close.  He is certainly accusing the guy of
|> sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the Jews, and
|> that's good enough for me.

The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history, and 
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany.

That's right.   There have been.    There have also been people who
were formally Nazis.   But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly
acceptable.

Now what exactly don't you understand about what I wrote, and why
don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 36
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr307182313253bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
 In article 1pj2b6aaafidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 In article 1993Apr303344610669bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
 Er Jon what Ken said was
  
  There have previously been people like you in your country  Unfortunately
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  most Jews did not survive
  
 That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi
 

[my previous posting deleted]

 
 Yes yes  This is a perfectly fine rant and I agree with it completely
 But what does it have to do with anything  The issue at hand here
 is whether or not Ken accused the fellow from Germany of being a
 Nazi  I grant that he did not explicity make this accusation but
 he came pretty damn close  He is certainly accusing the guy of
 sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the Jews and
 thats good enough for me

The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history and 
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany

Thats right   There have been    There have also been people who
were formally Nazis   But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual antisemitism was perfectly
acceptable

Now what exactly dont you understand about what I wrote and why
dont you see what it has to do with the matter at hand

jon

preprocess doc  From: bafta@cats.ucsc.edu (Shari L Brooks)
Subject: Re: Into Infinity?(WAS:Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan?)
Organization: University of California - Santa Cruz
Lines: 36
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu
Summary: me too!
Keywords: cheesy science fiction


In article <1993Apr18.171148.6367@abo.fi> MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI (Marcus 
Lindroos INF) writes:

>Later on, the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
>of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in TV history by flying "Into Infinity."
>This was a one-off thing done as part of BBC's "educational SF" series "The
>Day After Tomorrow." The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
>reaching the speed of light ("lightship Altares"), the four-man crew 
>eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the 
>galaxy (I think). I saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very 
>much, but then again I was a fan of SPACE:1999 so I guess I was easily 
>satisfied in those days:-)

Wow.  I was beginning to think that I had made that up.  I remember that
movie (it was about 1.5 hours long).  I don't think they ended up anywhere
in the known universe.  

I remember they got a message halfway out to Proxima Centauri, that Earth
transmitted a day after they launched, timed to catch up with them at the
halfway point.  I thought it was neat, I think I was all of 10 at the time.

>Does anyone know if "Into Infinity" has been released on video? I have some
>SPACE:1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc. also are available in
>England.
 
Space:1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in American stores.
I will look for the Into Infinity show, I never did know that was the
name of it, I thought the show was called "the day after tomorrow", and
that was it.

-- 
If you blow fire against the wind, take care to not get the smoke in your eyes.
      Big & Growly Dragon-monster        |        bafta@cats.ucsc.edu
   --------> shari brooks <--------      |    brooks@anarchy.arc.nasa.gov
                      The above opinions are solely my own.

after prepro  From baftacatsucscedu Shari L Brooks
Subject Re Into InfinityWASRe Doppelganger was Re Vulcan
Organization University of California  Santa Cruz
Lines 36
NNTPPostingHost siucscedu
Summary me too
Keywords cheesy science fiction


In article 1993Apr181711486367abofi MLINDROOSFINABOABOFI Marcus 
Lindroos INF writes

Later on the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudoscientific shows in TV history by flying Into Infinity
This was a oneoff thing done as part of BBCs educational SF series The
Day After Tomorrow The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light lightship Altares the fourman crew 
eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the 
galaxy I think I saw this as a 9yearold back in 1976 and liked it very 
much but then again I was a fan of SPACE1999 so I guess I was easily 
satisfied in those days

Wow  I was beginning to think that I had made that up  I remember that
movie it was about 15 hours long  I dont think they ended up anywhere
in the known universe  

I remember they got a message halfway out to Proxima Centauri that Earth
transmitted a day after they launched timed to catch up with them at the
halfway point  I thought it was neat I think I was all of 10 at the time

Does anyone know if Into Infinity has been released on video I have some
SPACE1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc also are available in
England
 
Space1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in American stores
I will look for the Into Infinity show I never did know that was the
name of it I thought the show was called the day after tomorrow and
that was it

 
If you blow fire against the wind take care to not get the smoke in your eyes
      Big  Growly Dragonmonster                baftacatsucscedu
    shari brooks           brooksanarchyarcnasagov
                      The above opinions are solely my own

preprocess doc  From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Theists posting
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 21

In article <C4ux99.AIC@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:

Stuff deleted 

>Is there a concordance for the FAQ?  WHich translation is considered
>most authoritative?  Is there an orthodox commentary for the FAQ
>available?  Is there one FAQ for militant atheists and another for
>moderate atheists; or, do you all read from the same FAQ?  If so,
>how do you resolve differences of interpretation?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................................         
I can put the same question to followers of any religion. How do you
Moslems resolve differences of opinion ?? Don't tell me that there
is one interpretation of the Quran. Read the soc.culture.* newsgroups.
You will zillions of different interpretations.

-- Naren
naren@TEKIG1.PEN.TEK.COM 

All standard disclaimers apply


after prepro  From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Theists posting
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 21

In article  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes

Stuff deleted 

Is there a concordance for the FAQ  WHich translation is considered
most authoritative  Is there an orthodox commentary for the FAQ
available  Is there one FAQ for militant atheists and another for
moderate atheists or do you all read from the same FAQ  If so
how do you resolve differences of interpretation

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm         
I can put the same question to followers of any religion How do you
Moslems resolve differences of opinion  Dont tell me that there
is one interpretation of the Quran Read the socculture newsgroups
You will zillions of different interpretations

 Naren
narenTEKIG1PENTEKCOM 

All standard disclaimers apply


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: HLV for Fred (was Re: Prefab Space Station?)
Article-I.D.: zoo.C51875.67p
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 28

In article <C5133A.Gzx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>>>Titan IV launches ain't cheap 
>>Granted. But that's because titan IV's are bought by the governemnt. Titan
>>III is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all US expendable
>>launchers.
>
>In that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
>market.  Is there a single Titan III on order?

The problem with Commercial Titan is that MM has made little or no attempt
to market it.  They're basically happy with their government business and
don't want to have to learn how to sell commercially.

A secondary problem is that it is a bit big.  They'd need to go after
multi-satellite launches, a la Ariane, and that complicates the marketing
task quite significantly.

They also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time
to get them started properly.  If memory serves, the pad used for the Mars
Observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had
prevented launches from it for a year or so.

There have been a few CT launches.  Mars Observer was one of them.  So
was that stranded Intelsat, and at least one of its brothers that reached
orbit properly.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re HLV for Fred was Re Prefab Space Station
ArticleID zooC5187567p
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 28

In article  jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
Titan IV launches aint cheap 
Granted But thats because titan IVs are bought by the governemnt Titan
III is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all US expendable
launchers

In that case its rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
market  Is there a single Titan III on order

The problem with Commercial Titan is that MM has made little or no attempt
to market it  Theyre basically happy with their government business and
dont want to have to learn how to sell commercially

A secondary problem is that it is a bit big  Theyd need to go after
multisatellite launches a la Ariane and that complicates the marketing
task quite significantly

They also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time
to get them started properly  If memory serves the pad used for the Mars
Observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had
prevented launches from it for a year or so

There have been a few CT launches  Mars Observer was one of them  So
was that stranded Intelsat and at least one of its brothers that reached
orbit properly
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Evo. & Homosexuality (Was Re: Princeton etc.)
Article-I.D.: srvr1.1psosqINN3gg
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: wormwood.engin.umich.edu


 Sorry, Bill, I had to clear this up. There may be good evolutionary
arguments against homosexuality, but these don't qualify.

In article <C4vwn0.JF5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>C.Wainwright (eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk) wrote:
[deletions]
>: |> It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
[deletions]
>: So *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children?
>: Hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated.  Obviously you keep to the
>: Monty Python song:  "Every sperm is sacred".  And if, as *you* say, it has
>: a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own 
>: arguement, natural.
>
>Consider the context, I'm talking about an evolutionary function. One
>of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
>species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context.

 Oh? I guess all those social insects (e.g. ants, bees, etc.) which
have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on
the way out, huh?
 
>: These days is just ain't true!  People can decide whether or not to have 
>: children and when.  Soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's 
>: another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision.  Again by
>: your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they
>: must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children.  Both are 
>: as "unnatural" as each other.
>
>Yet another non-sequitur. Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
>for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. That
>homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and
>nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose.

 I refer you to the bonobos, a species of primate as closeley related to
humans as chimpanzees (that is, very closely). They have sex all the
time, homosexual as well as heterosexual. When the group finds food, they
have sex. Before the go to sleep at night, they have sex. After they
escape from or fight off prdators, they have sex. Sex serves a very important
social function above and beyond reproduction in this species. A species
closely related to humans. There is some indication that sex performs
a social function in humans, as well, but even if not, this shows that
such a function is not *impossible*.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles               ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Evo  Homosexuality Was Re Princeton etc
ArticleID srvr11psosqINN3gg
Distribution world
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost wormwoodenginumichedu


 Sorry Bill I had to clear this up There may be good evolutionary
arguments against homosexuality but these dont qualify

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
CWainwright eczcawmipsnottacuk wrote
[deletions]
  It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
[deletions]
 So every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children
 Hmmno wonder the world is overpopulated  Obviously you keep to the
 Monty Python song  Every sperm is sacred  And if as you say it has
 a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own 
 arguement natural

Consider the context Im talking about an evolutionary function One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate those who dont have no purpose in that context

 Oh I guess all those social insects eg ants bees etc which
have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on
the way out huh
 
 These days is just aint true  People can decide whether or not to have 
 children and when  Soon they will be able to choose its sex c but thats 
 another arguement so its more of a lifestyle decision  Again by
 your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they
 must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children  Both are 
 as unnatural as each other

Yet another nonsequitur Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental That
homosexuals dont procreate means that sex is only recreation and
nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose

 I refer you to the bonobos a species of primate as closeley related to
humans as chimpanzees that is very closely They have sex all the
time homosexual as well as heterosexual When the group finds food they
have sex Before the go to sleep at night they have sex After they
escape from or fight off prdators they have sex Sex serves a very important
social function above and beyond reproduction in this species A species
closely related to humans There is some indication that sex performs
a social function in humans as well but even if not this shows that
such a function is not impossible

 Sincerely

 Ray Ingles               inglesenginumichedu

 The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars  Robert A Heinlein

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 22

In article <bskendigC5JCwx.Jzn@netcom.com>, bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>
> [s.c.a quotes deleted]
> 
> It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
> to be atheist.  There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
> I thought...

Well, that explains some things; I posted on soc.religion.islam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea
among muslims.  I got no response.  Asking about the unknown,
I guess...

Karl
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope      | "All you touch and all you see  |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition -       | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall."  --Duke |                 --Pink Floyd    |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|         A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it.         |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 22

In article  bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes

 [sca quotes deleted]
 
 It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
 to be atheist  There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
 I thought

Well that explains some things I posted on socreligionislam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonlyheld idea
among muslims  I got no response  Asking about the unknown
I guess

Karl
 
 Lastly I come to China in the hope       All you touch and all you see  
 of fulfilling a lifelong ambition         Is all your life will ever be 
 dropping acid on the Great Wall  Duke                  Pink Floyd    

         A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it         
 

preprocess doc  From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 66

In article <1ql06qINN2kf@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>Schneider
>>>Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
>>>a certain species has developed in order to survive.
>>Wait.  Are we talking about ethics or morals here?
>
>Is the distinction important?

Yes.

>>>We see this countless
>>>times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for
>>>our own system as well.
>>Huh?
>
>Well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways.

Please describe these "number of ways" in detail.  Then explain the any
contradictions that may arise.

>>>In order for humans to thrive, we seem to need
>>>to live in groups,
>>Here's your problem.  "we *SEEM* to need".  What's wrong with the highlighted
>>word?
>
>I don't know.  What is wrong?  Is it possible for humans to survive for
>a long time in the wild?  Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult.  Humans
>are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success.

Define "difficult".

>>>and in order for a group to function effectively, it
>>>needs some sort of ethical code.
>>This statement is not correct.
>
>Isn't it?  Why don't you think so?

Explain the laws in America stating that you have to drive on the right-
hand side of the road.

>>>And, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself,
>>>I am not trying to give you your tautology, but I am trying to show that
>>>such are examples of moral systems with a goal.  Propogation of the species
>>>is a goal of a natural system of morality.
>>So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral?  After all,
>>in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate
>>as many women as possible.
>
>No.  As noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality)
>isn't really destructive to the system.  It is a worst neutral.

So if every member of the species was homosexual, this wouldn't be destructive
to the survival of the species?

>>For that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates.  When
>>he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who
>>mates.  These seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying
>>to shoot itself in the figurative foot.
>
>Again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined...

The whole "theory" needs to be reexamined...
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=

after prepro  From kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes
Schneider
Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
a certain species has developed in order to survive
Wait  Are we talking about ethics or morals here

Is the distinction important

Yes

We see this countless
times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for
our own system as well
Huh

Well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways

Please describe these number of ways in detail  Then explain the any
contradictions that may arise

In order for humans to thrive we seem to need
to live in groups
Heres your problem  we SEEM to need  Whats wrong with the highlighted
word

I dont know  What is wrong  Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild  Yes its possible but it is difficult  Humans
are a social animal and that is a cause of our success

Define difficult

and in order for a group to function effectively it
needs some sort of ethical code
This statement is not correct

Isnt it  Why dont you think so

Explain the laws in America stating that you have to drive on the right
hand side of the road

And by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself
I am not trying to give you your tautology but I am trying to show that
such are examples of moral systems with a goal  Propogation of the species
is a goal of a natural system of morality
So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral  After all
in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate
as many women as possible

No  As noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality
isnt really destructive to the system  It is a worst neutral

So if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldnt be destructive
to the survival of the species

For that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates  When
he diesis killedwhatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who
mates  These seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying
to shoot itself in the figurative foot

Again the mating practices are something to be reexamined

The whole theory needs to be reexamined

kcochrannyxcsduedu  B04 c d e f g k m r s t  TSAKC
My thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza  OK

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 56
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu>, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>  Sails. [...]
> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?

Sure.  Contact the World Space Foundation.  They're listed in the sci.space
Frequently Asked Questions file, which I'll excerpt.

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
    asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
    minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena, California 91301

WSF put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and
nonfiction about solar sails: *Project Solar Sail*.  I think Robert
Staehle, David Brin,  or Arthur Clarke may be listed as editor.

Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman,
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, Josh),
and I would expect that Greg Matloff and Eugene Mallove have something
to say about the subject in *The Starflight Handbook*, as well as
quite a few references.


Check the following articles in *Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society*:

V36 p. 201-209 (1983)
V36 p. 483-489 (1983)
V37 p. 135-141 (1984)
V37 p. 491-494 (1984)
V38 p. 113-119 (1984)
V38 p. 133-136 (1984)

(Can you guess that Matloff visited Fermilab and gave me a bunch of
reprints? I just found the file.)

And K. Eric Drexler's paper "High Performance Solar Sails and Related
Reflecting Devices," AIAA paper 79-1418, probably in a book called
*Space Manufacturing*, maybe the proceedings of the Second (?)
Conference on Space Manufacturing.  The 1979 one, at any rate.

Submarines, flying boats, robots, talking         Bill Higgins
pictures, radio, television, bouncing radar       Fermilab
vibrations off the moon, rocket ships, and        HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
atom-splitting-- all in our time.  But nobody     HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
has yet been able to figure out a music           SPAN:  43011::HIGGINS
holder for a marching piccolo player. 
                     --Meredith Willson, 1948

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 56
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
 I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
  Sails []
 Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project 

Sure  Contact the World Space Foundation  Theyre listed in the scispace
Frequently Asked Questions file which Ill excerpt

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION  has been designing and building a solarsail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey an extremely successful search for nearEarth
    asteroids Publishes Foundation News and Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook each a quarterly 48 page newsletter Contributing Associate
    minimum of 15year but more money always welcome to support projects

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena California 91301

WSF put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and
nonfiction about solar sails Project Solar Sail  I think Robert
Staehle David Brin  or Arthur Clarke may be listed as editor

Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out Josh
and I would expect that Greg Matloff and Eugene Mallove have something
to say about the subject in The Starflight Handbook as well as
quite a few references


Check the following articles in Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society

V36 p 201209 1983
V36 p 483489 1983
V37 p 135141 1984
V37 p 491494 1984
V38 p 113119 1984
V38 p 133136 1984

Can you guess that Matloff visited Fermilab and gave me a bunch of
reprints I just found the file

And K Eric Drexlers paper High Performance Solar Sails and Related
Reflecting Devices AIAA paper 791418 probably in a book called
Space Manufacturing maybe the proceedings of the Second 
Conference on Space Manufacturing  The 1979 one at any rate

Submarines flying boats robots talking         Bill Higgins
pictures radio television bouncing radar       Fermilab
vibrations off the moon rocket ships and        HIGGINSFNALBITNET
atomsplitting all in our time  But nobody     HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV
has yet been able to figure out a music           SPAN  43011HIGGINS
holder for a marching piccolo player 
                     Meredith Willson 1948

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>I don't expect the lion to know, or not know anything of the kind.
>In fact, I don't have any evidence that lions ever consider such 
>issues.
>And that, of course, is why I don't think you can assign moral
>significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions.

What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
That is, it doesn't take much work to be moral, but it certainly does to
be immoral (in some cases).  Also, I've said that morality is a remnant
of evolution.  Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in
the animal kingdom.

>>So you are basically saying that you think a "moral" is an undefinable
>>term, and that "moral systems" don't exist?  If we can't agree on a
>>definition of these terms, then how can we hope to discuss them?
>No, it's perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
>is in *my* system, but that I can't speak for other people.

But, this doesn't get us anywhere.  Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them...

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re I dont expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind
In fact I dont have any evidence that lions ever consider such 
issues
And that of course is why I dont think you can assign moral
significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions

What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior
That is it doesnt take much work to be moral but it certainly does to
be immoral in some cases  Also Ive said that morality is a remnant
of evolution  Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in
the animal kingdom

So you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable
term and that moral systems dont exist  If we cant agree on a
definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them
No its perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
is in my system but that I cant speak for other people

But this doesnt get us anywhere  Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them

keith

preprocess doc  From: trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu (Stephen McIntyre)
Subject: Re: The Problem of Satan (used to be: islamic authority over women)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 103

In article <1993Apr5.165233.1007@news.unomaha.edu> trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu 
     (Stephen McIntyre) writes:

> Of course, Bobby then states that Satan has no free will, that
>    he does as God wants him to.  This brings up a host of
>    paradoxes:  is God therefore evil; do I have free will
>    or is God directing me also; if God is evil, which part
>    of his infinite self is good and which is evil; etc.?

> I would like for once a solid answer, not a run-about.

# I hope I gave you a fairly solid answer to this one: I simply don't agree
# with the embodied version of a Satan who is a separate creation or a force.
# I wrote:

>> The belief to which I ascribe is that evil is not a creation;
>> rather, it is "the absence of good."  This fits with all the
>> logic about things having dual use: e.g., a knife can be used
>> to sculpt and it can be used to kill.  Like entropy, evil is
>> seen in this view as neither force nor entity.  Satan is,
>> therefore, metaphorical.  In fact, there are several verses
>> of the Holy Qur'an which appear to support this view and several
>> Traditions as well.
>
>> For example, there is a Tradition that food should never be left open
>> on a shelf or table overnight, lest "Satan" enter it.  It appears
>> that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs; thus, the
>> evil effect of spoiled food is described as "Satan."

>But there are many examples of Satan personified.  Which am I
>     to believe?

# And there are quite physical descriptions of Heaven and Hell in the
# Holy Qur'an, the Bible, etc.  There have been times in the spiritual
# and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical
# descriptions of Heaven, Hell, and Satan were taken quite literally
# and that *worked* for the time.  As I mentioned in the Tradition
# cited above, for example, it was sufficient in the absence of a theory
# about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the "evil"
# which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as "satanic."

     Which begs the question: if Satan in this case is
     metaphorical, how can you be certain Allah is not
     the same way?

# The bottom line here, however, is that describing a spiritual plane
# in human language is something like describing "color" to a person
# who has been blind from birth.  You may want to read the book
# FLATLAND (if you haven't already) or THE DRAGON'S EGG.  The first
# is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con-
# cept...

[some deleted for space saving]

# When language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe
# another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers, then
# such conventions as metaphor, allegory, and the like come to be
# necessary.  The "unseen" is described in terms which have reference`
# and meaning for the reader/listener.  But, like all models, a compro-
# mise must be made when speaking metaphorically: clarity and directness
# of meaning, equivalence of perception, and the like are all
# crippled.  But what else can you do?

     This is why I asked the above.  How would you then
     know God exists as a spirit or being rather than
     just being metaphorical?  I mean, it's okay to say
     "well, Satan is just metaphorical," but then you
     have to justify this belief AND justify that God is
     not some metaphor for something else.

     I say this because there are many, many instances of
     Satan described as a being (such as the tormentor in 
     the Old Testament book of Job, or the temptor in the
     New Testament Gospels).  In the same way, God too is
     described as a being (or spirit.)  How am I to know
     one is metaphorical and not the other.

     Further, belief in God isn't a bar to evil.  Let's
     consider the case of Satanists: even if Satan were
     metaphorical, the Satanist would have to believe
     in God to justify this belief.  Again, we have a 
     case where someone does believe in God, but by
     religious standards, they are "evil."  If Bobby
     does see this, let him address this question also.

[deleted some more on "metaphor"]

>> Obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible, but I'm
>> not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve
>> into religious interpretation further.  However, if anyone wishes
>> to discuss this, I'm certainly willing (either off line - e-mail - or
>> on line - posting).

Stephen

    _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   _/       _/    * Atheist
   _/        _/    _/   _/ _/ _/ _/     * Libertarian
  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/   _/   _/  _/      * Pro-individuality
       _/  _/     _/  _/       _/       * Pro-responsibility
_/_/_/_/  _/      _/ _/       _/ Jr.    * and all that jazz...


-- 

after prepro  From trajancwisunomahaedu Stephen McIntyre
Subject Re The Problem of Satan used to be islamic authority over women
Organization University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines 103

In article 1993Apr51652331007newsunomahaedu trajancwisunomahaedu 
     Stephen McIntyre writes

 Of course Bobby then states that Satan has no free will that
    he does as God wants him to  This brings up a host of
    paradoxes  is God therefore evil do I have free will
    or is God directing me also if God is evil which part
    of his infinite self is good and which is evil etc

 I would like for once a solid answer not a runabout

 I hope I gave you a fairly solid answer to this one I simply dont agree
 with the embodied version of a Satan who is a separate creation or a force
 I wrote

 The belief to which I ascribe is that evil is not a creation
 rather it is the absence of good  This fits with all the
 logic about things having dual use eg a knife can be used
 to sculpt and it can be used to kill  Like entropy evil is
 seen in this view as neither force nor entity  Satan is
 therefore metaphorical  In fact there are several verses
 of the Holy Quran which appear to support this view and several
 Traditions as well

 For example there is a Tradition that food should never be left open
 on a shelf or table overnight lest Satan enter it  It appears
 that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs thus the
 evil effect of spoiled food is described as Satan

But there are many examples of Satan personified  Which am I
     to believe

 And there are quite physical descriptions of Heaven and Hell in the
 Holy Quran the Bible etc  There have been times in the spiritual
 and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical
 descriptions of Heaven Hell and Satan were taken quite literally
 and that worked for the time  As I mentioned in the Tradition
 cited above for example it was sufficient in the absence of a theory
 about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the evil
 which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as satanic

     Which begs the question if Satan in this case is
     metaphorical how can you be certain Allah is not
     the same way

 The bottom line here however is that describing a spiritual plane
 in human language is something like describing color to a person
 who has been blind from birth  You may want to read the book
 FLATLAND if you havent already or THE DRAGONS EGG  The first
 is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con
 cept

[some deleted for space saving]

 When language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe
 another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers then
 such conventions as metaphor allegory and the like come to be
 necessary  The unseen is described in terms which have reference`
 and meaning for the readerlistener  But like all models a compro
 mise must be made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness
 of meaning equivalence of perception and the like are all
 crippled  But what else can you do

     This is why I asked the above  How would you then
     know God exists as a spirit or being rather than
     just being metaphorical  I mean its okay to say
     well Satan is just metaphorical but then you
     have to justify this belief AND justify that God is
     not some metaphor for something else

     I say this because there are many many instances of
     Satan described as a being such as the tormentor in 
     the Old Testament book of Job or the temptor in the
     New Testament Gospels  In the same way God too is
     described as a being or spirit  How am I to know
     one is metaphorical and not the other

     Further belief in God isnt a bar to evil  Lets
     consider the case of Satanists even if Satan were
     metaphorical the Satanist would have to believe
     in God to justify this belief  Again we have a 
     case where someone does believe in God but by
     religious standards they are evil  If Bobby
     does see this let him address this question also

[deleted some more on metaphor]

 Obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible but Im
 not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve
 into religious interpretation further  However if anyone wishes
 to discuss this Im certainly willing either off line  email  or
 on line  posting

Stephen

    ____  ____   _       _     Atheist
   _        _    _   _ _ _ _      Libertarian
  ____  ____   _   _  _       Proindividuality
       _  _     _  _       _        Proresponsibility
____  _      _ _       _ Jr     and all that jazz


 

preprocess doc  From: jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp.
Lines: 15

nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson) writes:
>jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
>>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.
>I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
>to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
>said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
>during assembly of one SRB.

I assume, then, that someone at Thiokol put on their "manager's hat" and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea, regardless of where that tool might have ended up.

Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol "manager's hats" are shaped like cones?

after prepro  From jfwksrcom John F Woods
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 15

nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson writes
jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case
I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB

I assume then that someone at Thiokol put on their managers hat and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up

Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol managers hats are shaped like cones

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 17

In article <1993Apr5.024626.19942@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>
>Peace,

  Bobby:

  Get this the hell out of your .sig until you 1) learn what it
  stands for and 2) really mean it.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  Subject Re islamic authority over women
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 17

In article 1993Apr502462619942ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

Peace

  Bobby

  Get this the hell out of your sig until you 1 learn what it
  stands for and 2 really mean it

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: ml@chiron.astro.uu.se (Mats Lindgren)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Uppsala University
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: chiron.astro.uu.se

Comet P/Helin-Roman-Crockett also spent some time as a temporary
satellite to Jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations
by Tancredi, G., Lindgren, M. and  Rickman, H.(Astron. Astrophys., 
239, pp. 375-380, 1990).
-- 


-------------------------------------------------------------
|  Mats Lindgren             |  Mats.Lindgren@astro.uu.se   |
|  Astronomical Observatory  |  21619::laban::ml            |
|  Box 515                   |                              |
|  751 20 Uppsala            |  Phone (+46) (0)18 51 35 22  |
|  Sweden                    |  Fax               52 75 83  |
-------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From mlchironastrouuse Mats Lindgren
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Uppsala University
Lines 14
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost chironastrouuse

Comet PHelinRomanCrockett also spent some time as a temporary
satellite to Jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations
by Tancredi G Lindgren M and  Rickman HAstron Astrophys 
239 pp 375380 1990
 



  Mats Lindgren               MatsLindgrenastrouuse   
  Astronomical Observatory    21619labanml            
  Box 515                                                 
  751 20 Uppsala              Phone 46 018 51 35 22  
  Sweden                      Fax               52 75 83  


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith IS a relativist!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat) writes:

>Keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
>to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start
>posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'I think there is an absolute
>morality' blurb a few weeks ago.

Did I claim that there was an absolute morality, or just an objective one?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith IS a relativist
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat writes

Keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into its cage so to speak youd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your I think there is an absolute
morality blurb a few weeks ago

Did I claim that there was an absolute morality or just an objective one

keith

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 114

In article <1993Apr5.091139.823@batman.bmd.trw.com>
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
 
>> Didn't you say Lucifer was created with a perfect nature?
>
>Yes.
>
 
Define perfect then.
 
 
>> I think you
>> are playing the usual game here, make sweeping statements like omni-,
>> holy, or perfect, and don't note that they mean exactly what they say.
>> And that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to
>> contradictions.
>
>I'm not trying to play games here.  But I understand how it might seem
>that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point
>of view such as atheism.
>
 
Take your foot out of your mouth, I wondered about that already when I
was a Catholic Christian. The fact that the contradiction is unresolvable
is one of the reasons why I am an atheist.
 
Believe me, I believed similar sentences for a long time. But that shows
the power of religion and not anything about its claims.
 
 
>>>Now God could have prevented Lucifer's fall by taking away his ability
>>>to choose between moral alternatives (worship God or worship himself),
>>>but that would mean that God was in error to have make Lucifer or any
>>>being with free will in the first place.
>>
>> Exactly. God allows evil, an evil if there ever was one.
>>
>
>Now that's an opinion, or at best a premise.  But from my point of view,
>it is not a premise which is necessary true, specifically, that it is
>an evil to allow evil to occur.
>
 
It follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used. Letting evil
happen or allowing evil to take place, in this place even causing evil,
is another evil.
 
 
>> But could you give a definition of free will? Especially in the
>> presence of an omniscient being?
>>
>"Will" is "self-determination".  In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God.  All "will", therefore, is "free will".
>
 
The omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even
before the omnipotent has created them. There is no choice left. All is known,
the course of events is fixed.
 
Not even for the omniscient itself, to extend an argument by James Tims.
 
 
>>>If God is omniscient, then
>>>clearly, creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than
>>>the emergence of ungodliness (evil/sin) since He created them knowing
>>>the outcome in advance.
>>
>> Why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it
>> will happen? Why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of
>> doing good or not doing good, but that does not necessarily imply
>> doing evil. It is logically possible, but your god has not done it.
>
>I do not know that such is logically possible.  If God restrains a
>free being's choice to choose to do evil and simply do "not good",
>then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice?
>And if "good" is defined as loving and obeying God, and avoiding
>those behaviors which God prohibits, then how can you say that one
>who is "not good" is not evil as well?  Like I said, I am not sure
>that doing "not good" without doing evil is logically possible.
 
And when I am not omnipotent, how can I have free will? You have said
something about choices and the scenario gives them. Therefore we have
what you define as free will.
 
Imagine the following. I can do good to other beings, but I cannot harm them.
Easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good
deeds, but don't make them long for them, so they can not feel the absence
of good as evil.
 
But whose case am I arguing? It is conceivable, so the omnipotent can do it.
Or it would not be omnipotent. If you want logically consistent as well, you
have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first.
 
(Deletion)
>
>Perhaps it is weak, in a way.  If I were just speculating about the
>ubiquitous pink unicorns, then there would be no basis for such
>speculation.  But this idea of God didn't just fall on me out of the
>blue :), or while reading science fiction or fantasy.  (I know that
>some will disagree)  :)  The Bible describes a God who is omniscient,
>and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice, from which
>the definitional logic follows.  But that's not all there is to it.
>There seems to be (at least in my mind) a certain amount of evidence
>which indicates that God exists and that the Biblical description
>of Him may be a fair one.  It is that evidence which bolsters the
>argument in my view.
 
That the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys
the credibility of the bible, nothing less.
 
And a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god,
unfortunately, there can't be any with these definitions.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 114

In article 1993Apr5091139823batmanbmdtrwcom
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
 
 Didnt you say Lucifer was created with a perfect nature

Yes

 
Define perfect then
 
 
 I think you
 are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni
 holy or perfect and dont note that they mean exactly what they say
 And that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to
 contradictions

Im not trying to play games here  But I understand how it might seem
that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point
of view such as atheism

 
Take your foot out of your mouth I wondered about that already when I
was a Catholic Christian The fact that the contradiction is unresolvable
is one of the reasons why I am an atheist
 
Believe me I believed similar sentences for a long time But that shows
the power of religion and not anything about its claims
 
 
Now God could have prevented Lucifers fall by taking away his ability
to choose between moral alternatives worship God or worship himself
but that would mean that God was in error to have make Lucifer or any
being with free will in the first place

 Exactly God allows evil an evil if there ever was one


Now thats an opinion or at best a premise  But from my point of view
it is not a premise which is necessary true specifically that it is
an evil to allow evil to occur

 
It follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used Letting evil
happen or allowing evil to take place in this place even causing evil
is another evil
 
 
 But could you give a definition of free will Especially in the
 presence of an omniscient being

Will is selfdetermination  In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God  All will therefore is free will

 
The omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even
before the omnipotent has created them There is no choice left All is known
the course of events is fixed
 
Not even for the omniscient itself to extend an argument by James Tims
 
 
If God is omniscient then
clearly creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than
the emergence of ungodliness evilsin since He created them knowing
the outcome in advance

 Why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it
 will happen Why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of
 doing good or not doing good but that does not necessarily imply
 doing evil It is logically possible but your god has not done it

I do not know that such is logically possible  If God restrains a
free beings choice to choose to do evil and simply do not good
then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice
And if good is defined as loving and obeying God and avoiding
those behaviors which God prohibits then how can you say that one
who is not good is not evil as well  Like I said I am not sure
that doing not good without doing evil is logically possible
 
And when I am not omnipotent how can I have free will You have said
something about choices and the scenario gives them Therefore we have
what you define as free will
 
Imagine the following I can do good to other beings but I cannot harm them
Easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good
deeds but dont make them long for them so they can not feel the absence
of good as evil
 
But whose case am I arguing It is conceivable so the omnipotent can do it
Or it would not be omnipotent If you want logically consistent as well you
have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first
 
Deletion

Perhaps it is weak in a way  If I were just speculating about the
ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would be no basis for such
speculation  But this idea of God didnt just fall on me out of the
blue  or while reading science fiction or fantasy  I know that
some will disagree    The Bible describes a God who is omniscient
and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which
the definitional logic follows  But thats not all there is to it
There seems to be at least in my mind a certain amount of evidence
which indicates that God exists and that the Biblical description
of Him may be a fair one  It is that evidence which bolsters the
argument in my view
 
That the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys
the credibility of the bible nothing less
 
And a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god
unfortunately there cant be any with these definitions
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: nick@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de (   Nikan B Firoozye )
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Applied Math, University of Bonn, Germany
Lines: 15

A related question (which I haven't given that much serious thought 
to): at what lattitude is the average length of the day (averaged 
over the whole year) maximized? Is this function a constant=
12 hours? Is it truly symmetric about the equator? Or is
there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic
(or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and
make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter, but
is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight
hours)?

I want to know where to move.

	-Nick Firoozye
	nick@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de


after prepro  From nicksfb256iamunibonnde    Nikan B Firoozye 
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Applied Math University of Bonn Germany
Lines 15

A related question which I havent given that much serious thought 
to at what lattitude is the average length of the day averaged 
over the whole year maximized Is this function a constant
12 hours Is it truly symmetric about the equator Or is
there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic
or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and
make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter but
is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight
hours

I want to know where to move

	Nick Firoozye
	nicksfb256iamunibonnde


preprocess doc  From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
In-Reply-To: <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu>'s message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:50:02 EDT
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 12

In <93106.155002JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

      Who cares what the fellow wrote anyway? I mean, it came from
PSUVM, so how could it possibly have been of any importance?

=====

(disperse smileys until no longer offended)


-- 
  Disclaimer?   "It's great to be young and insane!"

after prepro  From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
InReplyTo s message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 155002 EDT
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 12

In 93106155002JSN104psuvmpsuedu  writes

      Who cares what the fellow wrote anyway I mean it came from
PSUVM so how could it possibly have been of any importance



disperse smileys until no longer offended


 
  Disclaimer   Its great to be young and insane

preprocess doc  From: zowie@daedalus.stanford.edu (Craig "Powderkeg" DeForest)
Subject: Re: Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization: Stanford Center for Space Science and Astrophysics
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: daedalus.stanford.edu
In-reply-to: rdl1@ukc.ac.uk's message of 16 Apr 93 14:28:07 GMT

In article <3918@eagle.ukc.ac.uk> rdl1@ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Lorenz) writes:
   >Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
   >for sounding rockets?

   Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
   tanks big enough.

Our sounding rocket payload, with telemetry, guidance, etc. etc. and a
telescope cluster, weighs around 1100 pounds.  It uses freon jets for
steering and a pulse-width-modulated controller for alignment (ie
during our eight minutes in space, the jets are pretty much
continuously firing on a ~10% duty cycle or so...).  The jets also
need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization, and
flip the payload around to look at the Sun.

We have two freon tanks, each holding ~5 liters of freon (I'm speaking
only from memory of the last flight).  The ground crew at WSMR choose how
much freon to use based on some black-magic algorithm.  They have
extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack.

This should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas 
quantity.  If you really need to know, send me email and I'll try to get you
in touch with our ground crew people.

Cheers,
Craig

--
DON'T DRINK SOAP! DILUTE DILUTE! OK!

after prepro  From zowiedaedalusstanfordedu Craig Powderkeg DeForest
Subject Re Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization Stanford Center for Space Science and Astrophysics
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost daedalusstanfordedu
Inreplyto rdl1ukcacuks message of 16 Apr 93 142807 GMT

In article 3918eagleukcacuk rdl1ukcacuk RDLorenz writes
   Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
   for sounding rockets

   Well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the
   tanks big enough

Our sounding rocket payload with telemetry guidance etc etc and a
telescope cluster weighs around 1100 pounds  It uses freon jets for
steering and a pulsewidthmodulated controller for alignment ie
during our eight minutes in space the jets are pretty much
continuously firing on a 10 duty cycle or so  The jets also
need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization and
flip the payload around to look at the Sun

We have two freon tanks each holding 5 liters of freon Im speaking
only from memory of the last flight  The ground crew at WSMR choose how
much freon to use based on some blackmagic algorithm  They have
extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack

This should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas 
quantity  If you really need to know send me email and Ill try to get you
in touch with our ground crew people

Cheers
Craig


DONT DRINK SOAP DILUTE DILUTE OK

preprocess doc  From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Lines: 3

They must be shipping that good Eau Clair acid to California now.

Tom Freebairn 

after prepro  From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Lines 3

They must be shipping that good Eau Clair acid to California now

Tom Freebairn 

preprocess doc  From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms )
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 34

In article <1pfiuh$64e@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>If the japanese are really going for Nukes, why not go with better
>technology then we have.  AS opposed to BWR/PWRs  have they really
>considered some of the 3rd generation Inherently safe designs.

The Japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes.
This means that unlike the Germans (who do great things all by themselves)
the Japanese tie up with foreign companies. The major one is Mitsubishi
(who else) who have a sharing agreement with GE I think. No chance of a
new design.

>Sodium has lots of chemical problems but it really solves design
>difficulties.  Or the inherently safe types.

Sodium has *lots* of chemical problems. Like it eats stainless steel. Very
slowly but it gets there in the end. Not what I call a desired property.
As for design difficulties, what does sodium do there? It is a bitch and
it is only its chemical properties (flwed though they are) that means it
gets used. Two loops? That's not a design problem? Isolation from air and
water? That doesn't cause design problems? In comparison BWR's a dream rides!

>PWR's work real good,  but they need lots of steel,  and they are highly
>complex systems.  Simplicity is a virtue.

Don't get none of that in a Liquid Sodium Breeder! More steel, more complexity.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

after prepro  From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re the call to space was Re Clueless Szaboisms 
Organization Statistics Pure  Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 34

In article 1pfiuh64eaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

If the japanese are really going for Nukes why not go with better
technology then we have  AS opposed to BWRPWRs  have they really
considered some of the 3rd generation Inherently safe designs

The Japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes
This means that unlike the Germans who do great things all by themselves
the Japanese tie up with foreign companies The major one is Mitsubishi
who else who have a sharing agreement with GE I think No chance of a
new design

Sodium has lots of chemical problems but it really solves design
difficulties  Or the inherently safe types

Sodium has lots of chemical problems Like it eats stainless steel Very
slowly but it gets there in the end Not what I call a desired property
As for design difficulties what does sodium do there It is a bitch and
it is only its chemical properties flwed though they are that means it
gets used Two loops Thats not a design problem Isolation from air and
water That doesnt cause design problems In comparison BWRs a dream rides

PWRs work real good  but they need lots of steel  and they are highly
complex systems  Simplicity is a virtue

Dont get none of that in a Liquid Sodium Breeder More steel more complexity

Joseph Askew

 
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu  Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care  North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale the River murmurs on

preprocess doc  From: bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician)
Subject: Re: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
Organization: Society for the Preservation of E. coli
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu
Keywords: FAQ, atheism

I have an addition to the FAQ regarding "why are there no atheist
hospitals."

If I recall correctly, Johns Hopkins was built to provide medical
services without the "backing" of a religious group...thus making it a
hospital "dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism."

Might someone check up on this?

-- 
Brian Evans                |     "Bad mood, bad mood...Sure I'm in a bad mood!
bevans@carina.unm.edu      |      I haven't had sex...*EVER!*" -- Virgin Mary

after prepro  From bevanscarinaunmedu Mathemagician
Subject Re AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
Organization Society for the Preservation of E coli
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost carinaunmedu
Keywords FAQ atheism

I have an addition to the FAQ regarding why are there no atheist
hospitals

If I recall correctly Johns Hopkins was built to provide medical
services without the backing of a religious groupthus making it a
hospital dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism

Might someone check up on this

 
Brian Evans                     Bad mood bad moodSure Im in a bad mood
bevanscarinaunmedu            I havent had sexEVER  Virgin Mary

preprocess doc  From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 9


  I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking
the very leading question (in two or three parts)
   What are your long term expectations of space market, what projects
specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels
and what competition do you expect in this  area. (This last point
is always worth hitting upper management with "gently" if you want 
them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that
there really is competion)

after prepro  From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Lines 9


  I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking
the very leading question in two or three parts
   What are your long term expectations of space market what projects
specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels
and what competition do you expect in this  area This last point
is always worth hitting upper management with gently if you want 
them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that
there really is competion

preprocess doc  From: seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Nntp-Posting-Host: pogo.den.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics, Denver
Lines: 8

baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>temporarily in orbit around Jupiter.  The comet had apparently made a
>close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>comet.

Ooooh -- who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO?!?

after prepro  From sealepossumdenmmccom Eric H Seale
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
NntpPostingHost pogodenmmccom
Organization Martin Marietta Astronautics Denver
Lines 8

baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
temporarily in orbit around Jupiter  The comet had apparently made a
close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
comet

Ooooh  who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO

preprocess doc  From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM Research
Lines: 15

In article <N4HY.93Apr5120934@harder.ccr-p.ida.org>, n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier) writes:

|> [1] HOWEVER, I hate economic terrorism and political correctness
|> worse than I hate this policy.  


|> [2] A more effective approach is to stop donating
|> to ANY organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues
|> until they end the boycott on funding of scouts.  

Can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]?

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

after prepro  From stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Distribution usa
Organization IBM Research
Lines 15

In article  n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier writes

 [1] HOWEVER I hate economic terrorism and political correctness
 worse than I hate this policy  


 [2] A more effective approach is to stop donating
 to ANY organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues
 until they end the boycott on funding of scouts  

Can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]

 
Rob Strom stromwatsonibmcom 914 7847641
IBM Research 30 Saw Mill River Road PO Box 704 Yorktown Heights NY  10598

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>>But, if you were to discuss the merits of racism, or its psycholgical
>>benefits, you would do well to have experienced it personally.
>When you speak of "experiencing religion" you mean someone should believe in
>a religion.

That's right, and this is pretty impossible, right?  It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while, just to try out religion, and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best.  But again, this is not
possible.  Not that religion warrants belief, but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits.  There are also some psychological
burdens, too.

>When you speak of "experiencing racism", do you mean that someone should
>believe in racism, or that they should have racist things done to them?  For
>parallelism, the former must be what you meant, but it seems to be an odd
>usage of the phrase.

Well, if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism,
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually "believing"
in racism.  Of course, the parallel happens to be a poor one, but you
originated it.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider  Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes

But if you were to discuss the merits of racism or its psycholgical
benefits you would do well to have experienced it personally
When you speak of experiencing religion you mean someone should believe in
a religion

Thats right and this is pretty impossible right  It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while just to try out religion and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best  But again this is not
possible  Not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits  There are also some psychological
burdens too

When you speak of experiencing racism do you mean that someone should
believe in racism or that they should have racist things done to them  For
parallelism the former must be what you meant but it seems to be an odd
usage of the phrase

Well if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually believing
in racism  Of course the parallel happens to be a poor one but you
originated it

keith

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
>>Unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will, in which
>>case part of the responsibility is yours.
>I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.  Unless the rapist was hypnotized or
>something, I view him as solely responsible for his actions.

Not necessarily, especially if the rapist is known as such.  For instance,
if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get
snapped, whose fault is it?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  writes

As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
Unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will in which
case part of the responsibility is yours
Im sorry but I cant accept that  Unless the rapist was hypnotized or
something I view him as solely responsible for his actions

Not necessarily especially if the rapist is known as such  For instance
if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get
snapped whose fault is it

keith

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Lines: 21

In article <chrisb.734068710@bAARNie>, chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL) writes...
>	killing is wrong
>	if you kill we will punish you
>	our punishment will be to kill you.
> 
>Seems to be lacking in consistency.

Not any more so than

      holding people against their will is wrong
      if you hold people against their will we will punish you
      our punishment will be to hold you against your will

Is there any punishment which isn't something which, if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason, would lead to
punishment?  (Fines, I suppose.)

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721

after prepro  Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
Lines 21

In article  chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL writes
	killing is wrong
	if you kill we will punish you
	our punishment will be to kill you
 
Seems to be lacking in consistency

Not any more so than

      holding people against their will is wrong
      if you hold people against their will we will punish you
      our punishment will be to hold you against your will

Is there any punishment which isnt something which if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason would lead to
punishment  Fines I suppose

Jim Lippard              LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy      LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721

preprocess doc   howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!dpw
Subject: Periodic Post of Charley Challenges, #3, with additions
From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 250



New in this version:  challenge #5, plus an addendum summarizing
Charley's responses to-date..
-----------------------------------------

*** This is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage
*** Charley Wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently 
*** specious claims.  I'll continue to re-post periodically until
*** he answers them, publicly indicates that he won't answer them,
*** stops posting to alt.atheism, the alt.atheism community tells
*** me to stop, or I get totally bored.  I apologize for the 
*** somewhat juvenile nature of this approach, but I'm at a loss
*** to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and 
*** seeming intellectual dishonesty.
***
*** This is re-post #3.


Charley,

I can't help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers
to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your
previous posts.  I submit that you don't answer them because you
cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic, and I once
again challenge you to prove me wrong.  To make the task as easy for
you as possible, I'll present concise re-statements of some of the
questions that you have failed to answer, in the hope that you may
address them one at a time for all to see.

Should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period, I
will re-post this article, with suitable additions and deletions, at
such time that I notice a post by you on another topic.  I will repeat
this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or
you cease to post to this newsgroup.

I would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these
questions previously and your answer missed my notice.  If you can be
kind enough to re-post or e-mail such articles, I will be only too
pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question, and remove it
from this list.

Now, to the questions...

1. After claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological
patterns that you proposed, then semi-retracting that claim by stating
that you weren't referring to *all* atheists, I asked you to name some
atheists who you feel don't fit your patterns, to show that you indeed
were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of.  You failed
to do so.  Please do so now.

Question: Can you name any a.a posters who do not fit into your
stereotype?

Here is the context for the question:

>>> This is not true for everyone on this board, and you are out of line
>>> in assuming that it is.
>>
>>YOU, however, deleted the text further along where I said that I didn't mean
>>to imply that everybody's experience was along the same lines.  
>
>Whether or not you *mean* to make such implications, you do so
>repeatedly.  
>
>Allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint: can you name
>those atheists that you've come across who *do not* fit into the
>patterns that you theorize?


2. You have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that "senses and
reason are all we have to go by", and when pressed, you have implied
that we have an alternative called revelation.  I have repeatedly
asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both
experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses
and reason.  You failed to do so.  Please do so now.

Question: Can you explain what is revelation and how one can
experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent
reasoning?

Here is the context for the question:

>>Revelation is not reason, and if we DO have revelation, then
>>reasoning is NOT all we have.

>First, show me that revelation exists.  Second, if revelation is not
>perceived through the senses, how exactly is it perceived?  According
>to my Webster's, revelation is "an act of revealing or communicating
>divine truth."  Now, tell me how such a thing can be revealed/
>communicated other than via the senses?  Tell me how you can interpret
>this revelation other than with reason, that is, using your brain to
>interpret what you are sensing.  When I say there is no way for a
>human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as
>interpreted by reason (your brain), it is because this is the simple
>truth.  If you have another mechanism of interface, by all means,
>share it with us.

then later...

>>>You CANNOT escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is
>>>our senses and our reason, period.
>>
>>Again, this is indefensible.  
>
>No, it is simple truth.  I challenge you to show me otherwise.

then later...

>>Few mystics will agree to this assertion, and the common defense of
>>redefining "senses" to absorb (for instance) mystical experiences is
>>begs the question of whether some senses are better than others.
>
>I allow you the broadest definition of senses, to make things easier
>for you.  Now, show me that "mystical experiences" exist.  Remember,
>you aren't allowed to go by testimony of others (e.g., mystics), since
>you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable - you know, tainted by
>my own bias.  Further, once these mystical thingies are absorbed, show
>me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of
>interpretation via that person's reasoning capabilities.
>
>I challenge you to show me these things.  If you cannot do so, you
>might as well give up the fight.

then later...

>Let me reiterate, you have NOT explained your interpretation of your
>experiences, so it is not possible for me to have attacked them.  In
>point of fact, I specifically challenged you to explain this
>revelation stuff that you were talking about, and I note for the
>record that you appear to have declined my challenge.
>
>*What* is it?  *How* is it sensed?  *How* is it interpreted?  And
>*how* does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit
>of our senses and reasoning abilities?  You have answered none of
>these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims.  If you
>can't answer them, your claims are entirely specious.


3.  You have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by
a.a posters are unverifiable and fantastical.  I asked you to identify
one such claim that I have made.  You have failed to do so.  Please do
so now.

Question: Have I made any claims at all that are unverifiable and
fantastical?  If so, please repeat them.

Here is the context for the question:


>>I must thank David Wood a most sensitive and intelligent (if wrong :-))
>>posting.  

then later...

>>Likewise, the reference to "unverifiable, fantastical
>>claims" represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to
>>dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group.
>
>Give me your address and I'll be pleased to send you a dictionary.
>Failing that, can you name ONE claim that I have made that is in any
>sense unverifiable or fantastical?  I demand that you retract this
>statement if you cannot offer up evidence.  If you follow your usual
>pattern of ignoring the challenge, then you are simply an asshole.


4.  First you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as
a result of reason, then later you stated that if one accepted the
"axioms" of reason that one couldn't help but become atheist.  I asked
you to explain the contradiction.  Your only response was a statement
that the question was incoherent, an opinion not shared by others that
I have asked, be they atheist or theist.  You have failed to answer
the question.  Please do so now.

Question: Do you retract your claim that a.a posters have not become
atheists as a result of reason, despite their testimony to that
effect?  If you don't retract that claim, do you retract the
subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably
result in atheism?

Here is the context for the question:

[First quote]
>>...we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is
>>based on reason... it is up to atheists to prove it to me...
>
>then,
>
[Second quote]
>>...but I do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with
>>an atheistic point of view.


5.  First, you claimed that you would (probably) not answer these
Challenges because they contained too much in the way of "included
text" from previous posts.  Later, you implied that you wouldn't
respond because I was putting words in your mouth.  Please clarify
this seeming contradiction.

Question:  Do you prefer to respond to Challenges that include context
from your own posts, or that I paraphrase your positions in order to
avoid "included text"?

Here is the context for the question:

First you said:

>>My ordinary rules are that I don't read articles over over 150 lines
>>or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first
>>screen.  THese are not rules of morality, but practicality.

then later...

>>If someone is not going to argue with MY version of MY position, then
>>they cannot be argued with.


As usual, your responses are awaited with anticipation.

--Dave Wood


p.s., For the record, below is a compilation of Charley's responses to
these challenges to date.

3/18/93
>>This makes no sense to me at all; it gives the appearance either of utter
>>incoherence, or of answering some question of Mr. Wood's imagination.

3/31/93 (#1)
>>Mr. Wood, I do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on
>>the net requires any response whatsoever.  At some point I might read and
>>respond to your article, and then again, I might not.  My ordinary rules are
>>that I don't read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is
>>nothing but included text on the first screen.  THese are not rules of
>>morality, but practicality.

3/31/93 (#2)
>>I left out something else I don't respond to.
>>...
>>Utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments
>>(meta-arguments, as some call them).

4/3/93
>>When I have to start saying "that's not what I said", and the response is
>>"did so!", there's no reason to continue.  If someone is not going to argue
>>with MY version of MY position, then they cannot be argued with.




after prepro   howlandrestonansneteuropaenggtefsdcomfs7ececmuedunewsseicmuedudpw
Subject Periodic Post of Charley Challenges 3 with additions
From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 250



New in this version  challenge 5 plus an addendum summarizing
Charleys responses todate


 This is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage
 Charley Wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently 
 specious claims  Ill continue to repost periodically until
 he answers them publicly indicates that he wont answer them
 stops posting to altatheism the altatheism community tells
 me to stop or I get totally bored  I apologize for the 
 somewhat juvenile nature of this approach but Im at a loss
 to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and 
 seeming intellectual dishonesty

 This is repost 3


Charley

I cant help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers
to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your
previous posts  I submit that you dont answer them because you
cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic and I once
again challenge you to prove me wrong  To make the task as easy for
you as possible Ill present concise restatements of some of the
questions that you have failed to answer in the hope that you may
address them one at a time for all to see

Should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period I
will repost this article with suitable additions and deletions at
such time that I notice a post by you on another topic  I will repeat
this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or
you cease to post to this newsgroup

I would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these
questions previously and your answer missed my notice  If you can be
kind enough to repost or email such articles I will be only too
pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question and remove it
from this list

Now to the questions

1 After claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological
patterns that you proposed then semiretracting that claim by stating
that you werent referring to all atheists I asked you to name some
atheists who you feel dont fit your patterns to show that you indeed
were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of  You failed
to do so  Please do so now

Question Can you name any aa posters who do not fit into your
stereotype

Here is the context for the question

 This is not true for everyone on this board and you are out of line
 in assuming that it is

YOU however deleted the text further along where I said that I didnt mean
to imply that everybodys experience was along the same lines  

Whether or not you mean to make such implications you do so
repeatedly  

Allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name
those atheists that youve come across who do not fit into the
patterns that you theorize


2 You have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that senses and
reason are all we have to go by and when pressed you have implied
that we have an alternative called revelation  I have repeatedly
asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both
experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses
and reason  You failed to do so  Please do so now

Question Can you explain what is revelation and how one can
experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent
reasoning

Here is the context for the question

Revelation is not reason and if we DO have revelation then
reasoning is NOT all we have

First show me that revelation exists  Second if revelation is not
perceived through the senses how exactly is it perceived  According
to my Websters revelation is an act of revealing or communicating
divine truth  Now tell me how such a thing can be revealed
communicated other than via the senses  Tell me how you can interpret
this revelation other than with reason that is using your brain to
interpret what you are sensing  When I say there is no way for a
human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as
interpreted by reason your brain it is because this is the simple
truth  If you have another mechanism of interface by all means
share it with us

then later

You CANNOT escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is
our senses and our reason period

Again this is indefensible  

No it is simple truth  I challenge you to show me otherwise

then later

Few mystics will agree to this assertion and the common defense of
redefining senses to absorb for instance mystical experiences is
begs the question of whether some senses are better than others

I allow you the broadest definition of senses to make things easier
for you  Now show me that mystical experiences exist  Remember
you arent allowed to go by testimony of others eg mystics since
you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable  you know tainted by
my own bias  Further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show
me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of
interpretation via that persons reasoning capabilities

I challenge you to show me these things  If you cannot do so you
might as well give up the fight

then later

Let me reiterate you have NOT explained your interpretation of your
experiences so it is not possible for me to have attacked them  In
point of fact I specifically challenged you to explain this
revelation stuff that you were talking about and I note for the
record that you appear to have declined my challenge

What is it  How is it sensed  How is it interpreted  And
how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit
of our senses and reasoning abilities  You have answered none of
these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims  If you
cant answer them your claims are entirely specious


3  You have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by
aa posters are unverifiable and fantastical  I asked you to identify
one such claim that I have made  You have failed to do so  Please do
so now

Question Have I made any claims at all that are unverifiable and
fantastical  If so please repeat them

Here is the context for the question


I must thank David Wood a most sensitive and intelligent if wrong 
posting  

then later

Likewise the reference to unverifiable fantastical
claims represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to
dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group

Give me your address and Ill be pleased to send you a dictionary
Failing that can you name ONE claim that I have made that is in any
sense unverifiable or fantastical  I demand that you retract this
statement if you cannot offer up evidence  If you follow your usual
pattern of ignoring the challenge then you are simply an asshole


4  First you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as
a result of reason then later you stated that if one accepted the
axioms of reason that one couldnt help but become atheist  I asked
you to explain the contradiction  Your only response was a statement
that the question was incoherent an opinion not shared by others that
I have asked be they atheist or theist  You have failed to answer
the question  Please do so now

Question Do you retract your claim that aa posters have not become
atheists as a result of reason despite their testimony to that
effect  If you dont retract that claim do you retract the
subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably
result in atheism

Here is the context for the question

[First quote]
we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is
based on reason it is up to atheists to prove it to me

then

[Second quote]
but I do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with
an atheistic point of view


5  First you claimed that you would probably not answer these
Challenges because they contained too much in the way of included
text from previous posts  Later you implied that you wouldnt
respond because I was putting words in your mouth  Please clarify
this seeming contradiction

Question  Do you prefer to respond to Challenges that include context
from your own posts or that I paraphrase your positions in order to
avoid included text

Here is the context for the question

First you said

My ordinary rules are that I dont read articles over over 150 lines
or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first
screen  THese are not rules of morality but practicality

then later

If someone is not going to argue with MY version of MY position then
they cannot be argued with


As usual your responses are awaited with anticipation

Dave Wood


ps For the record below is a compilation of Charleys responses to
these challenges to date

31893
This makes no sense to me at all it gives the appearance either of utter
incoherence or of answering some question of Mr Woods imagination

33193 1
Mr Wood I do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on
the net requires any response whatsoever  At some point I might read and
respond to your article and then again I might not  My ordinary rules are
that I dont read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is
nothing but included text on the first screen  THese are not rules of
morality but practicality

33193 2
I left out something else I dont respond to

Utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments
metaarguments as some call them

4393
When I have to start saying thats not what I said and the response is
did so theres no reason to continue  If someone is not going to argue
with MY version of MY position then they cannot be argued with




preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Allah Akbar and Praise the Lord.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 15

Maddi Hausmann (madhaus@netcom.com) wrote:
: 
: And thank the Lord that Bill Connor has returned to set
: us straight!  Now I know I can die happy when my Lexus
: SE400 wipes out on that rain-slick curve in 1997.  The
: rest of you had best straighten up, because your time 
: is even more limited.  Most of you are going in the Flu
: of 1994.

Maddi,

You know you're glad to have me visit ...
But I won't stay long this time, just shopping around.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Allah Akbar and Praise the Lord
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 15

Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom wrote
 
 And thank the Lord that Bill Connor has returned to set
 us straight  Now I know I can die happy when my Lexus
 SE400 wipes out on that rainslick curve in 1997  The
 rest of you had best straighten up because your time 
 is even more limited  Most of you are going in the Flu
 of 1994

Maddi

You know youre glad to have me visit 
But I wont stay long this time just shopping around

Bill

preprocess doc  From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 40

cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
: 
[ . . . . . ]
:
: Personally, I feel that since religion have such a poweful
: psychological effect, we should let theists be.  But the problem is that
: religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole
: (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science
: & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc.  Need I say more?).
: I really don't know what we can do about them.  Any comments?
: 

  I have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons
attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax
anybody else. This seems to be ok for atheists. You don't get an atheist
knocking on your door, stopping you in the airport, or handing out
literature at a social event. Theists seem to think that thier form of
happy should work for others and try to make it so. 

  My sister is a 
born again, and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family
for several years. She finally got the clue that she couldn't help.
During that period she bought me "I was atheist, now I'm Xtian" books
for my birthday and Xmas several times. Our birthday cards would contain
verses. It was a problem. I told my mom that I was going to send my
sister an atheist piece of reading material. I got a "Don't you dare".
My mom wasn't religious. Why did she insist that I not send it ??

   Because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to
preach, non-religion should be self contained. What a crock of shit.
I finally told my sister that I didn't find her way of life attractive.
I have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then.

   I'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and WORST
OF ALL . . . . respected more than atheists. There must be an end
in sight.

Dave Fuller
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com


after prepro  From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 40

cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng  dan writes
 
[      ]

 Personally I feel that since religion have such a poweful
 psychological effect we should let theists be  But the problem is that
 religions cause enormous harm to nonbelievers and to humanity as a whole
 holy wars inquisitions interreligious hatred impedence of science
  intellectual progress usthem attitudes etc etc  Need I say more
 I really dont know what we can do about them  Any comments
 

  I have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons
attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax
anybody else This seems to be ok for atheists You dont get an atheist
knocking on your door stopping you in the airport or handing out
literature at a social event Theists seem to think that thier form of
happy should work for others and try to make it so 

  My sister is a 
born again and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family
for several years She finally got the clue that she couldnt help
During that period she bought me I was atheist now Im Xtian books
for my birthday and Xmas several times Our birthday cards would contain
verses It was a problem I told my mom that I was going to send my
sister an atheist piece of reading material I got a Dont you dare
My mom wasnt religious Why did she insist that I not send it 

   Because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to
preach nonreligion should be self contained What a crock of shit
I finally told my sister that I didnt find her way of life attractive
I have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then

   Im sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and WORST
OF ALL     respected more than atheists There must be an end
in sight

Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom


preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Galileo Update - 04/15/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 113
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from Neal Ausman, Galileo Mission Director

                                GALILEO
                     MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
                             POST-LAUNCH
                         April 9 - 15, 1993

SPACECRAFT

1.  On April 9, real-time commands were sent, as planned, to reacquire
celestial reference after completion of the Low Gain Antenna (LGA-2)
swing/Dual Drive Actuator (DDA) hammer activities.

2.  On April 9, the EJ-1 (Earth-Jupiter #1) sequence memory load was uplinked
to the spacecraft without incident.  This sequence covers spacecraft activity
from April 12, 1993 to June 14, 1993 and includes a window for the Radio Relay
Antenna (RRA) slew test on April 28, 1993.  The command loss timer was set to
11 days as a part of this sequence memory load.

3.  On April 12 and 15, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss
timer to 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

4.  On April 12, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV), Dust Detector (DDS), and Magnetometer
(MAG) instruments.  Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly.

5.  On April 12, an Ultra-Stable Oscillator (USO) test was performed to verify
the health status of the USO and to collect gravitational red shift experiment
data; long term trend analysis is continuing.

6.  On April 14, a 40bps modulation index test was performed to determine the
optimal Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) when transmitting at 40bps.  Preliminary
analysis of the data suggests that the present pre-launch selected modulation
index is near the optimal level.

7.  On April 15, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV) and Magnetometer (MAG) instrument.
Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly.

8.  On April 15, a periodic RPM (Retro-Propulsion Module) 10-Newton thruster
flushing maintenance activity was performed; all 12 thrusters were flushed
during the activity.  Thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal.

9.  The AC/DC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant
changes (greater than 25 DN) throughout this period.  The AC measurement reads
19 DN (4.3 volts).  The DC measurement reads 111 DN (12.9 volts).  These
measurements are consistent with the model developed by the AC/DC special
anomaly team.

10. The Spacecraft status as of April 15, 1993, is as follows:

       a)  System Power Margin -  60 watts
       b)  Spin Configuration - Dual-Spin
       c)  Spin Rate/Sensor - 3.15rpm/Star Scanner
       d)  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 18 degrees
           off-sun (lagging) and 6 degrees off-earth (leading)
       e)  Downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/LGA-1
       f)  General Thermal Control - all temperatures within
           acceptable range
       g)  RPM Tank Pressures - all within acceptable range
       h)  Orbiter Science- Instruments powered on are the PWS,
           EUV, UVS, EPD, MAG, HIC, and DDS
       i)  Probe/RRH - powered off, temperatures within
           acceptable range
       j)  CMD Loss Timer Setting - 264 hours
           Time To Initiation - 260 hours


GDS (Ground Data Systems):

1.  Galileo participated in a second DSN (Deep Space Network) acceptance test
for the DSN Telemetry Phase 3 Upgrade on April 13, 1993, using CTA-21
(Compatibility Test Area 21).  The purpose of this test was to verify
the flow of Galileo telemetry data through the new Telemetry Group Controller
(TGC) and the Telemetry Channel Assembly (TCA).  The TGC/TCA is the replacement
for the current Telemetry Processing Assembly (TPA).  Seven different telemetry
rates were run for this test; all ran well on both the MTS (MCCC Telemetry
Subsystem) and the AMMOS MGDS V18.0 GIF with the exception of 10bps.  The
10bps rate had some trouble staying in lock; it appears the TGC/TCA was
not metering the data correctly.  Further comparisons between the MGDS and MTS
data from this test are being conducted. MVT (Mission Verification Test) of
the TGC/TCA system is expected to begin May 16, 1993.


TRAJECTORY

     As of noon Thursday, April 15, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows:

	Distance from Earth         152,606,000 km (1.02 AU)
	Distance from Sun           277,519,800 km (1.86 AU)
	Heliocentric Speed          93,400 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       543,973,900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       17 minutes, 4 seconds


SPECIAL TOPIC

1.  As of April 15, 1993, a total of 70184 real-time commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch.  Of these, 65076  were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the real-time command process.
In the past week, 7 real time commands were transmitted: 6 were initiated in
the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process.
Major command activities included commands to reacquire celestial reference,
uplink the EJ-1 sequence memory load, and reset the command loss timer.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Galileo Update  041593
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 113
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from Neal Ausman Galileo Mission Director

                                GALILEO
                     MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
                             POSTLAUNCH
                         April 9  15 1993

SPACECRAFT

1  On April 9 realtime commands were sent as planned to reacquire
celestial reference after completion of the Low Gain Antenna LGA2
swingDual Drive Actuator DDA hammer activities

2  On April 9 the EJ1 EarthJupiter 1 sequence memory load was uplinked
to the spacecraft without incident  This sequence covers spacecraft activity
from April 12 1993 to June 14 1993 and includes a window for the Radio Relay
Antenna RRA slew test on April 28 1993  The command loss timer was set to
11 days as a part of this sequence memory load

3  On April 12 and 15 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss
timer to 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase

4  On April 12 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV Dust Detector DDS and Magnetometer
MAG instruments  Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly

5  On April 12 an UltraStable Oscillator USO test was performed to verify
the health status of the USO and to collect gravitational red shift experiment
data long term trend analysis is continuing

6  On April 14 a 40bps modulation index test was performed to determine the
optimal SignaltoNoise Ratio SNR when transmitting at 40bps  Preliminary
analysis of the data suggests that the present prelaunch selected modulation
index is near the optimal level

7  On April 15 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV and Magnetometer MAG instrument
Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly

8  On April 15 a periodic RPM RetroPropulsion Module 10Newton thruster
flushing maintenance activity was performed all 12 thrusters were flushed
during the activity  Thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal

9  The ACDC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant
changes greater than 25 DN throughout this period  The AC measurement reads
19 DN 43 volts  The DC measurement reads 111 DN 129 volts  These
measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ACDC special
anomaly team

10 The Spacecraft status as of April 15 1993 is as follows

       a  System Power Margin   60 watts
       b  Spin Configuration  DualSpin
       c  Spin RateSensor  315rpmStar Scanner
       d  Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 18 degrees
           offsun lagging and 6 degrees offearth leading
       e  Downlink telemetry rateantenna 40bpscodedLGA1
       f  General Thermal Control  all temperatures within
           acceptable range
       g  RPM Tank Pressures  all within acceptable range
       h  Orbiter Science Instruments powered on are the PWS
           EUV UVS EPD MAG HIC and DDS
       i  ProbeRRH  powered off temperatures within
           acceptable range
       j  CMD Loss Timer Setting  264 hours
           Time To Initiation  260 hours


GDS Ground Data Systems

1  Galileo participated in a second DSN Deep Space Network acceptance test
for the DSN Telemetry Phase 3 Upgrade on April 13 1993 using CTA21
Compatibility Test Area 21  The purpose of this test was to verify
the flow of Galileo telemetry data through the new Telemetry Group Controller
TGC and the Telemetry Channel Assembly TCA  The TGCTCA is the replacement
for the current Telemetry Processing Assembly TPA  Seven different telemetry
rates were run for this test all ran well on both the MTS MCCC Telemetry
Subsystem and the AMMOS MGDS V180 GIF with the exception of 10bps  The
10bps rate had some trouble staying in lock it appears the TGCTCA was
not metering the data correctly  Further comparisons between the MGDS and MTS
data from this test are being conducted MVT Mission Verification Test of
the TGCTCA system is expected to begin May 16 1993


TRAJECTORY

     As of noon Thursday April 15 1993 the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows

	Distance from Earth         152606000 km 102 AU
	Distance from Sun           277519800 km 186 AU
	Heliocentric Speed          93400 km per hour
	Distance from Jupiter       543973900 km
	Round Trip Light Time       17 minutes 4 seconds


SPECIAL TOPIC

1  As of April 15 1993 a total of 70184 realtime commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch  Of these 65076  were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the realtime command process
In the past week 7 real time commands were transmitted 6 were initiated in
the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process
Major command activities included commands to reacquire celestial reference
uplink the EJ1 sequence memory load and reset the command loss timer
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1qlfd4INN935@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>>>Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
>>>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
>>So, why "must" they have such laws?
>
>The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."
>
>If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
>etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
>into chaos.
	

	The "System" refered to a "moral system". You havn't shown any 
reason that chimps "must" have a moral system. 
	Except if you would like to redefine everything.


--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

        John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.



after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
So why must they have such laws

The quotation marks should enclose laws not must

If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos
	

	The System refered to a moral system You havnt shown any 
reason that chimps must have a moral system 
	Except if you would like to redefine everything


 

         Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken 

        John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word



preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 52
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>>Explain to me
>>>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
>>For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
>Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
>would be nothing voluntary about it.

See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is "voluntary."  Why do you think this?

And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.

>>So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
>>beings mimics theirs?
>You are starting to get the point.  Mimicry is not necessarily the 
>same as the action being imitated.  A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly" 
>isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.

You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
Let's try this:  is it "good" that animals of the same species
don't kill each other.  Or, do you think this is right? 

Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong?


>>Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but 
>>they don't.
>They do.  I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
>this, but you seem to have a very short memory.

Those weren't arbitrary killings.  They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot.

>>Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
>>most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
>I'm saying:
>	"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not 
>	just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
>It's right there in the posting you are replying to.

Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions.  What
do you mean by "consider?"  Can a small child be moral?  How about
a gorilla?  A dolphin?  A platypus?  Where is the line drawn?  Does
the being need to be self aware?

What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other?  Don't
you find the fact that they don't at all significant?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
For example if it were instinctive not to murder
Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
would be nothing voluntary about it

See there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is voluntary  Why do you think this

And anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts

So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs
You are starting to get the point  Mimicry is not necessarily the 
same as the action being imitated  A Parrot saying Pretty Polly 
isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly

You are attaching too many things to the term moral I think
Lets try this  is it good that animals of the same species
dont kill each other  Or do you think this is right 

Or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong


Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but 
they dont
They do  I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this but you seem to have a very short memory

Those werent arbitrary killings  They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot

Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
Im saying
	There must be the possibility that the organism  its not 
	just people we are talking about  can consider alternatives
Its right there in the posting you are replying to

Yes it was but I still dont understand your distinctions  What
do you mean by consider  Can a small child be moral  How about
a gorilla  A dolphin  A platypus  Where is the line drawn  Does
the being need to be self aware

What do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from arbitrarily killing each other  Dont
you find the fact that they dont at all significant

keith

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 18

> Oh, this all sounds so nice!  Everyone helping each other and always smiling
> and fluffy bunnies everywhere.  Wake up!  People are just not like that.  It
> seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
> upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people.  Isn't it obvious from
> places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
> then they are going to be attracted to positions of power?  Sounds like a
> recipe for disaster.

Looking at historical evidence such 'perfect utopian' islamic states
didn't survive. I agree, people are people, and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state, it takes 
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules --
again.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage 
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 18

 Oh this all sounds so nice  Everyone helping each other and always smiling
 and fluffy bunnies everywhere  Wake up  People are just not like that  It
 seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
 upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people  Isnt it obvious from
 places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
 then they are going to be attracted to positions of power  Sounds like a
 recipe for disaster

Looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states
didnt survive I agree people are people and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes 
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules 
again

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Biblical Rape
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 14

In article <1993Apr05.174537.14962@watson.ibm.com>
strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
 
>
>In article <16BA7F16C.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>, I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>
>I didn't have time to read the rest of the posting, but
>I had to respond to this.
>
>I am absolutely NOT a "Messianic Jew".
>
 
Another mistake. Sorry, I should have read alt.,messianic more carefully.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Biblical Rape
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 14

In article 1993Apr0517453714962watsonibmcom
stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
 

In article 16BA7F16CI3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes

I didnt have time to read the rest of the posting but
I had to respond to this

I am absolutely NOT a Messianic Jew

 
Another mistake Sorry I should have read altmessianic more carefully
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: HLV for Fred (was Re: Prefab Space Station?)
Article-I.D.: iti.1993Apr6.124456.14123
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 22

In article <C5133A.Gzx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:

>>[Titan III is the cheapest US launcher on a $/lb basis]

>In that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
>market.  Is there a single Titan III on order?

They have a few problems. The biggest technical problem is the need to find
two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch.

They also don't show much interest in commercial launches. There is more
money to be made churning out Titan IV's for the government. After all,
it isn't every day you find a sucker, er, customer who thinks paying
three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea!

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        |
|  aws@iti.org     |  nothing undone"                                       |
+----------------------71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re HLV for Fred was Re Prefab Space Station
ArticleID iti1993Apr612445614123
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 22

In article  jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes

[Titan III is the cheapest US launcher on a lb basis]

In that case its rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
market  Is there a single Titan III on order

They have a few problems The biggest technical problem is the need to find
two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch

They also dont show much interest in commercial launches There is more
money to be made churning out Titan IVs for the government After all
it isnt every day you find a sucker er customer who thinks paying
three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea

  Allen

 

 Allen W Sherzer  A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        
  awsitiorg       nothing undone                                       
71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: mrw9e@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Michael Robert Williams)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 25

In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
>In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> James P. Goltz, goltz@mimi.UU.NET
>writes:
>>  Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.
>
>It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by
>Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is,
>but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
>Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time,
>but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later,
>when 
>Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?
>
>Leigh

Nope, I haven't seen the film, but Taylor's biography ("The Curve of 
Binding Energy") contains a short section on Orion and this test flight.
Apparently it was quite impressi, and got von Braun very excited.

In Real Life:Mike Williams     | Perpetual Grad Student
e-mail      :mrw9e@virginia.edu|   - It's not just a job, it's an indenture
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you ever have a world of your own, plan ahead- don't eat it." ST:TNG

after prepro  From mrw9efultonseasVirginiaEDU Michael Robert Williams
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization University of Virginia
Lines 25

In article 1993Apr1705333315696sfuca Leigh Palmer  writes
In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET James P Goltz goltzmimiUUNET
writes
  Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept

It was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago I dont know how wellknown this is
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958 I was working at General Atomic at the time
but I didnt learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later
when 
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it

Leigh

Nope I havent seen the film but Taylors biography The Curve of 
Binding Energy contains a short section on Orion and this test flight
Apparently it was quite impressi and got von Braun very excited

In Real LifeMike Williams      Perpetual Grad Student
email      mrw9evirginiaedu    Its not just a job its an indenture

If you ever have a world of your own plan ahead dont eat it STTNG

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 18

In article <1raejd$bf4@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>what ever happened to the hypothesis  that the shuttle flight software
>was a major factor in the loss of 51-L.  to wit,  that during the
>wind shear event,  the Flight control software  indicated a series
>of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
>resonance  leading to an overstress of the struts.

This sounds like another of Ali AbuTaha's 57 different "real causes" of
the Challenger accident.  As far as I know, there has never been the
slightest shred of evidence for a "harmonic resonance" having occurred.

The windshear-induced maneuvering probably *did* contribute to opening
up the leak path in the SRB joint again -- it seems to have sealed itself
after the puffs of smoke during liftoff -- but the existing explanation
of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately.
-- 
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS.    - Dick Dunn  |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Level 5
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 18

In article 1raejdbf4accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
what ever happened to the hypothesis  that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51L  to wit  that during the
wind shear event  the Flight control software  indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance  leading to an overstress of the struts

This sounds like another of Ali AbuTahas 57 different real causes of
the Challenger accident  As far as I know there has never been the
slightest shred of evidence for a harmonic resonance having occurred

The windshearinduced maneuvering probably did contribute to opening
up the leak path in the SRB joint again  it seems to have sealed itself
after the puffs of smoke during liftoff  but the existing explanation
of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately
 
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision    Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS     Dick Dunn    henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc   wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgi!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
 <93089.050046MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> <1pa6ntINNs5d@gap.caltech.edu> 
 <1993Mar30.205919.26390@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <1pcnp3INNpom@gap.caltech.edu> <1pdjip$jsi@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pi9jkINNqe2@gap.caltec
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20

In article <1pi9jkINNqe2@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >>>How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
|> >>>default?  ...  Where's the cutoff point? 
|> >>I don't know where the exact cutoff is, but it is at least after a few
|> >>years, and surely after 40 years.
|> >Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
|> >in population makeup?     
|> 
|> Specifically, which changes are you talking about?  Are you arguing
|> that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
|> population now than 40 years ago?

No, do I have to?    I'm just commenting that it makes very
little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default.

Seen any steam trains recently?

jon.

after prepro   wupostuunetoliveasgigatesgifidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re Pompous ass
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
 93089050046MVS104psuvmpsuedu 1pa6ntINNs5dgapcaltechedu 
 1993Mar3020591926390blazecsjhuedu 1pcnp3INNpomgapcaltechedu 1pdjipjsifidoasdsgicom 1pi9jkINNqe2gapcaltec
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20

In article 1pi9jkINNqe2gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
 default    Wheres the cutoff point 
 I dont know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few
 years and surely after 40 years
 Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
 in population makeup     
 
 Specifically which changes are you talking about  Are you arguing
 that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
 population now than 40 years ago

No do I have to    Im just commenting that it makes very
little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default

Seen any steam trains recently

jon

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: DC-Y trajectory simulation
Keywords: SSTO, Delta Clipper
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 91


I've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. I've 
transcribed some of my notes below.  Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine.  Permission is 
granted to copy this without restriction.

Note for newbies:  The Delta Clipper project is geared towards producing a
single staget to orbit, reusable launch vehicle.  The DC-X vehicle is a 1/3
scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in SSTO.  It is 
currently undergoing tests.  The DC-Y vehicle would be a full scale 
experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit.  It has not yet been funded.

On April 6th, Rocky Nelson of MacDonnell Douglas gave a talk entitled 
"Optimizing Techniques for Advanced Space Missions" here at the University of
Illinois. Mr Nelson's job involves using software to simulate trajectories and
determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements.  Although he is
not directly involved with the Delta Clipper project, he has spent time with 
them recently, using his software for their applications.  He thus used 
the DC-Y project for most of his examples.  While I don't think the details
of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers (I hope
they aren't - I fell asleep during that part), I think that many of you will
be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples.

The first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit.  The
main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 Gs.  I assume that
this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints, but I
did not verify that.  The Delta Clipper Y version has 8 engines - 4 boosters
and 4 sustainers.  The boosters, which have a lower isp, are shut down in 
mid-flight.  Thus, one critical question is when to shut them down.  Mr Nelson
showed the following plot of acceleration vs time:
                  ______
3 G         /|   /      |
           / |  /       |          As ASCII graphs go, this is actually fairly 
          /  | /        |	   good.  The big difference is that the lines
2 G      /   |/         |          made by the  /  should be curves which are
        /               |          concave up.  The data is only approximate, as
       /                |          the graph wasn't up for very long.
1 G   /                 |
                        |
                        |
0 G                     |

             ^          ^
           ~100 sec    ~400 sec


As mentioned before, a critical constraint is that G levels must be kept below
3.  Initially, all eight engines are started.  As the vehicle  burns fuel the
accelleration increases.  As it gets close to 3G, the booster engines are 
throtled back.  However, they quickly become inefficient at low power, so it
soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether.  This causes the dip in 
accelleration at about 100 seconds.  Eventually the remaining sustainer engines
bring the G level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut
out entirely.

The engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit.  The trajectory is aimed
for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of
air drag slow the vehicle slightly, thus lowering the final altitude to 
that desired.

Questions from the audience:  (paraphrased)

Q:  Would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs, rather than
    all at once?

A:  Very perceptive.  Worth considering.  They have not yet done the simulation.    Shutting down all four was part of the problem as given.

Q:  So what was the final payload for this trajectory?

A:  Can't tell us.  "Read Aviation Leak."  He also apparently had a good 
    propulsion example, but was told not to use it.  

My question:  Does anyone know if this security is due to SDIO protecting
national security or MD protecting their own interests?

The second example was reentry simulation, from orbit to just before the pitch
up maneuver.  The biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating, and 
the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange.  He showed graphs
of heating using two different models, to show that both were very similar,
and I think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate.
The end result was that for a polar orbit landing at KSC, the DC-Y would have
about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start it's reentry profile about 
60 degrees south latitude.

I would have asked about the landing maneuvers, but he didn't know about that
aspect of the flight profile.

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject DCY trajectory simulation
Keywords SSTO Delta Clipper
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 91


Ive been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest Ive 
transcribed some of my notes below  Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine  Permission is 
granted to copy this without restriction

Note for newbies  The Delta Clipper project is geared towards producing a
single staget to orbit reusable launch vehicle  The DCX vehicle is a 13
scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in SSTO  It is 
currently undergoing tests  The DCY vehicle would be a full scale 
experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit  It has not yet been funded

On April 6th Rocky Nelson of MacDonnell Douglas gave a talk entitled 
Optimizing Techniques for Advanced Space Missions here at the University of
Illinois Mr Nelsons job involves using software to simulate trajectories and
determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements  Although he is
not directly involved with the Delta Clipper project he has spent time with 
them recently using his software for their applications  He thus used 
the DCY project for most of his examples  While I dont think the details
of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers I hope
they arent  I fell asleep during that part I think that many of you will
be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples

The first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit  The
main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 Gs  I assume that
this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints but I
did not verify that  The Delta Clipper Y version has 8 engines  4 boosters
and 4 sustainers  The boosters which have a lower isp are shut down in 
midflight  Thus one critical question is when to shut them down  Mr Nelson
showed the following plot of acceleration vs time
                  ______
3 G                  
                               As ASCII graphs go this is actually fairly 
                     	   good  The big difference is that the lines
2 G                            made by the    should be curves which are
                                 concave up  The data is only approximate as
                                 the graph wasnt up for very long
1 G                    
                        
                        
0 G                     

             ^          ^
           100 sec    400 sec


As mentioned before a critical constraint is that G levels must be kept below
3  Initially all eight engines are started  As the vehicle  burns fuel the
accelleration increases  As it gets close to 3G the booster engines are 
throtled back  However they quickly become inefficient at low power so it
soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether  This causes the dip in 
accelleration at about 100 seconds  Eventually the remaining sustainer engines
bring the G level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut
out entirely

The engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit  The trajectory is aimed
for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of
air drag slow the vehicle slightly thus lowering the final altitude to 
that desired

Questions from the audience  paraphrased

Q  Would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs rather than
    all at once

A  Very perceptive  Worth considering  They have not yet done the simulation    Shutting down all four was part of the problem as given

Q  So what was the final payload for this trajectory

A  Cant tell us  Read Aviation Leak  He also apparently had a good 
    propulsion example but was told not to use it  

My question  Does anyone know if this security is due to SDIO protecting
national security or MD protecting their own interests

The second example was reentry simulation from orbit to just before the pitch
up maneuver  The biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating and 
the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange  He showed graphs
of heating using two different models to show that both were very similar
and I think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate
The end result was that for a polar orbit landing at KSC the DCY would have
about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start its reentry profile about 
60 degrees south latitude

I would have asked about the landing maneuvers but he didnt know about that
aspect of the flight profile

 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. Where are they?
 <1993Apr24.221344.1@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>
Lines: 8

If all of these things have been detected in space, has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors?

That is, is there some mechanism (cosmic rays, whatever) that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things?

Graydon

after prepro  Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon 
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters Where are they
 1993Apr242213441vax1mankatomsusedu
Lines 8

If all of these things have been detected in space has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors

That is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things

Graydon

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Lines: 27

In article <chrisb.734064380@bAARNie>, chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL) writes...
>jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
> 
>>My syllogism is of the form:
>>A is B.
>>C is A.
>>Therefore C is B.
> 
>>This is a logically valid construction.
> 
>>Your syllogism, however, is of the form:
>>A is B.
>>C is B.
>>Therefore C is A.
> 
>>Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction, 
>>and your comments don't apply.

If all of those are "is"'s of identity, both syllogisms are valid.
If, however, B is a predicate, then the second syllogism is invalid.
(The first syllogism, as you have pointed out, is valid--whether B
is a predicate or designates an individual.)

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721

after prepro  Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
Lines 27

In article  chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL writes
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
 
My syllogism is of the form
A is B
C is A
Therefore C is B
 
This is a logically valid construction
 
Your syllogism however is of the form
A is B
C is B
Therefore C is A
 
Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction 
and your comments dont apply

If all of those are iss of identity both syllogisms are valid
If however B is a predicate then the second syllogism is invalid
The first syllogism as you have pointed out is validwhether B
is a predicate or designates an individual

Jim Lippard              LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy      LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 20

In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com>,
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) wrote:
>   He is right. Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
> done "in the name of religion", does not mean that it actually followed
> the religion. He will always point to the "ideal" and say that it wasn't
> followed so it can't be the reason for the event. There really is no way
> to argue with him, so why bother. Sure, you may get upset because his 
> answer is blind and not supported factually - but he will win every time
> with his little argument. I don't think there will be any postings from
> me in direct response to one of his.

Hey! Glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this
newsgroup. I agree 100% on the statement above, you might argue with
Bobby for eons, and he still does not get it, so the best thing is
to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re New Member
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 20

In article 
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller wrote
   He is right Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
 done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed
 the religion He will always point to the ideal and say that it wasnt
 followed so it cant be the reason for the event There really is no way
 to argue with him so why bother Sure you may get upset because his 
 answer is blind and not supported factually  but he will win every time
 with his little argument I dont think there will be any postings from
 me in direct response to one of his

Hey Glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this
newsgroup I agree 100 on the statement above you might argue with
Bobby for eons and he still does not get it so the best thing is
to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Space Clippers launched
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 14



>  SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY

When I first saw this, I thought for a second that it was a headline from
The Star about the pliers found in the SRB recently.

Y'know, sometimes they have wire-cutters built in :-)

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Space Clippers launched
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 14



  SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY

When I first saw this I thought for a second that it was a headline from
The Star about the pliers found in the SRB recently

Yknow sometimes they have wirecutters built in 

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: University of Southern Queensland
Lines: 42

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 

I _know_ I shouldn't get involved, but...   :-)

[bit deleted]

>	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
>	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
>die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
>someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
>heal people.  
>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
>this right away.
>	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
>real thing.  

Righto, DAN, try this one with your Cornflakes...

The book says that Muhammad was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
modern day Mad Mahdi) or he was actually who he said he was.
Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
how his son-in-law made the sun stand still.  Call me a fool, but I believe 
he did make the sun stand still.  
Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
anyone who is drawn to the Mad Mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see 
this right away.
Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
real thing.  

--

Ron House.                 USQ
(house@helios.usq.edu.au)  Toowoomba, Australia.

after prepro  From househeliosusqEDUAU ron house
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization University of Southern Queensland
Lines 42

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 

I _know_ I shouldnt get involved but   

[bit deleted]

	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
heal people  
	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away
	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  

Righto DAN try this one with your Cornflakes

The book says that Muhammad was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Mad Mahdi or he was actually who he said he was
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
how his soninlaw made the sun stand still  Call me a fool but I believe 
he did make the sun stand still  
Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to the Mad Mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  



Ron House                 USQ
househeliosusqeduau  Toowoomba Australia

preprocess doc  From: davidk@welch.jhu.edu (David "Go-Go" Kitaguchi)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Nntp-Posting-Host: uss1.welch.jhu.edu
Reply-To: davidk@welch.jhu.edu
Organization: Welch Medical Library
Lines: 21

In article 65934@mimsy.umd.edu, mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
:PNanci Ann Miller writes:
:P
:P>My favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is
:P>that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
:P>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and
:P>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right,
:P>literally.  If not, then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
:P>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
:P>originally inspired by God?
:P
:PThe "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak.  Comparison of the
:Pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
:Phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia.  This
:Pshouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
:Pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies.

Well corrupted the first time is good enough.  Seeing that the bible was constructed
400 years after Jesus's death, in the text of merchants (ie-owe this and owe that) I wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously.  Obviously it was not intended for such nonsense, otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize (sp)
off of the Asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense.


after prepro  From davidkwelchjhuedu David GoGo Kitaguchi
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
NntpPostingHost uss1welchjhuedu
ReplyTo davidkwelchjhuedu
Organization Welch Medical Library
Lines 21

In article 65934mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
PNanci Ann Miller writes
P
PMy favorite reply to the you are being too literalminded complaint is
Pthat if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
Pimportant to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and
Pscribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right
Pliterally  If not then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
Pthat has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
Poriginally inspired by God
P
PThe corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak  Comparison of the
Pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
Phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia  This
Pshouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
Pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies

Well corrupted the first time is good enough  Seeing that the bible was constructed
400 years after Jesuss death in the text of merchants ieowe this and owe that I wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously  Obviously it was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize sp
off of the Asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense


preprocess doc  From: tkelso@afit.af.mil (TS Kelso)
Subject: Two-Line Orbital Element Set:  Space Shuttle
Keywords: Space Shuttle, Orbital Elements, Keplerian
Nntp-Posting-Host: scgraph.afit.af.mil
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines: 21

The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when
possible).  Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system.  As a service to the satellite user community, the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below.  The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using
8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.

Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil
(129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space.

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 93105.06179397  .00044513  00000-0  12649-3 0   230
2 22621  57.0022 147.2850 0004246 288.7332  38.0941 15.92991629  1084
1993 023B  
1 22623U 93 23  B 93103.37312705  .00041032  00000-0  11888-3 0    86
2 22623  57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650  66.5967 15.92653917   803
--
Dr TS Kelso                           Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelso@afit.af.mil                    Air Force Institute of Technology

after prepro  From tkelsoafitafmil TS Kelso
Subject TwoLine Orbital Element Set  Space Shuttle
Keywords Space Shuttle Orbital Elements Keplerian
NntpPostingHost scgraphafitafmil
Organization Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines 21

The most current orbital elements from the NORAD twoline element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS 513 4270674 and are updated daily when
possible  Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system  As a service to the satellite user community the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below  The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 2400 4800 or 9600 bps using
8 data bits 1 stop bit no parity

Element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archiveafitafmil
12992166 in the directory pubspace

STS 56     
1 22621U 93 23  A 9310506179397  00044513  000000  126493 0   230
2 22621  570022 1472850 0004246 2887332  380941 1592991629  1084
1993 023B  
1 22623U 93 23  B 9310337312705  00041032  000000  118883 0    86
2 22623  570000 1551150 0004422 2934650  665967 1592653917   803

Dr TS Kelso                           Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelsoafitafmil                    Air Force Institute of Technology

preprocess doc   cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!karner
Subject: Re: Islamic marriage?
From: karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner)
 <C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Originator: frank@karner.austin.ibm.com
Lines: 50


In article <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
> In article <C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
> >
> >Okay.  So you want me to name names?  There are obviously no official
> >records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for
> >convenience.  What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
> >in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of. 
> >The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
> >religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex.  Nobody complains,
> >nobody cares, nobody needs to know.
> >
> >Perhaps you should alert your imam.  It could be that this practice is
> >far more widespread than you may think.  Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
> >to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists!
> >-- 
> >
> 
> Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, Muslims
> are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? There is
> no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts 
> straight buddy. Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
> were lying. It is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in
> fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
> Muslims.

First of all, I'm not your buddy!  Second, read what I wrote.  I'm not
talking about what muslims are ALLOWED to do, merely what *SOME*
practice.  They consider themselves as muslim as you, so don't retort
with the old and tired "they MUST NOT BE TRUE MUSLIMS" bullshit.  If I
gave you the names what will you do with this information?  Is a fatwa
going to be leashed out against the perpetrators?  Do you honestly think
that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess? 
With the kind of extremism shown by your co-religionaries?  Fat chance.

At any rate, there can be no conclusive "proof" by the very nature of
the act.  Perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in
theory, but hope that Allah will forgive them in the end.

I think it's rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims
in this regard.  Also, kind of silly.  Are you insinuating that because
the Koranic law forbids it, there are no criminals in muslim countries? 

This is as far as I care to go on this subject.  The weakness of your
arguments are for all netters to see.  Over and out...
-- 

         DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
            solely and do not represent my employer in any way.
       F. A. Karner AIX Technical Support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com

after prepro   csutexasedugeraldoccutexaseduportalaustinibmcomawdprimeaustinibmcomkarner
Subject Re Islamic marriage
From karneraustinibmcom F Karner
  1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM
Organization IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Originator frankkarneraustinibmcom
Lines 50


In article 1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
 In article  karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes
 
 Okay  So you want me to name names  There are obviously no official
 records of these pseudomarriages because they are performed for
 convenience  What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
 in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of 
 The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
 religious marriage contract in order to have sex  Nobody complains
 nobody cares nobody needs to know
 
 Perhaps you should alert your imam  It could be that this practice is
 far more widespread than you may think  Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
 to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists
  
 
 
 Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display Muslims
 are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages got that There is
 no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts 
 straight buddy Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
 were lying It is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in
 fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
 Muslims

First of all Im not your buddy  Second read what I wrote  Im not
talking about what muslims are ALLOWED to do merely what SOME
practice  They consider themselves as muslim as you so dont retort
with the old and tired they MUST NOT BE TRUE MUSLIMS bullshit  If I
gave you the names what will you do with this information  Is a fatwa
going to be leashed out against the perpetrators  Do you honestly think
that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess 
With the kind of extremism shown by your coreligionaries  Fat chance

At any rate there can be no conclusive proof by the very nature of
the act  Perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in
theory but hope that Allah will forgive them in the end

I think its rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims
in this regard  Also kind of silly  Are you insinuating that because
the Koranic law forbids it there are no criminals in muslim countries 

This is as far as I care to go on this subject  The weakness of your
arguments are for all netters to see  Over and out
 

         DISCLAIMER The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
            solely and do not represent my employer in any way
       F A Karner AIX Technical Support  karneraustinvnetibmcom

preprocess doc  From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Nicknames
Summary: was Re: New Member
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 36

In article <UfnYJ2a00VoqIT9VpA@andrew.cmu.edu> nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nanci Ann Miller) writes:
>jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>> Welcome.  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
>> are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
>> Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster."  So the next time
>> you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
>> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller.  Thanks again.
>> 
>> Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland
>
>Of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
>GIPU almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on
>the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?).  Since I am
>a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
>nicknames for the frequent posters here!

If the first rule of humor is never having to say you're sorry then the 
second rule must be never having to explain yourself.  Few things are 
worse that a joke explained.  In spite of this, and because of requests
for me to post my list o' nicknames, I must admit that no such list
exists.  It was simply a plot device, along with me being the keeper
o' the list, to make the obvious play on the last name of Fuller and to
advance the idea that such a list should be made.

I assumed that the ol' timers would recognize it for what it is.  
Nevertheless, how about a list o' nicknames for alt.atheism posters?
If you think of a good one, just post it and see if others like it.
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
Bill.

Jim "D'oh! I broke the second rule of humor" Copeland
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part                    | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse       | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse        | Nothing

after prepro  From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Nicknames
Summary was Re New Member
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 36

In article  nm0wandrewcmuedu Nanci Ann Miller writes
jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes
 Welcome  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
 are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
 Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster  So the next time
 you post an article sign with your nickname like so
 Dave Buckminster Fuller  Thanks again
 
 Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland

Of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago you know the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed  Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here

If the first rule of humor is never having to say youre sorry then the 
second rule must be never having to explain yourself  Few things are 
worse that a joke explained  In spite of this and because of requests
for me to post my list o nicknames I must admit that no such list
exists  It was simply a plot device along with me being the keeper
o the list to make the obvious play on the last name of Fuller and to
advance the idea that such a list should be made

I assumed that the ol timers would recognize it for what it is  
Nevertheless how about a list o nicknames for altatheism posters
If you think of a good one just post it and see if others like it
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most like Bobby or
Bill

Jim Doh I broke the second rule of humor Copeland

If God is dead and the actor plays his part                      Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart  History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse        Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse         Nothing

preprocess doc  Subject: Diffs to sci.space/sci.astro Frequently Asked Questions
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:50:16 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Supersedes: <diffs_730956190@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 294

Archive-name: space/diff

DIFFS SINCE LAST FAQ POSTING (IN POSTING ORDER)

(These are hand-edited context diffs; do not attempt to use them to patch
old copies of the FAQ).

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.intro
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06400	Thu Apr  1 14:47:22 1993
--- FAQ.intro	Thu Apr  1 14:46:55 1993
***************
*** 101,107 ****
		  NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
		  NASA Spacelink
		  National Space Science Data Center
-		  Space And Planetary Image Facility
		  Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
		  Starcat
		  Astronomical Databases
--- 101,106 ----
***************
*** 130,135 ****
--- 129,135 ----
	      LLNL "great exploration"
	      Lunar Prospector
	      Lunar science and activities
+	      Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	      Spacecraft models
	      Rocket propulsion
	      Spacecraft design

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.net
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06405	Thu Apr  1 14:47:24 1993
--- FAQ.net	Thu Apr  1 14:46:57 1993
***************
*** 58,63 ****
--- 58,67 ----
      elements are sent out on the list from Dr. Kelso, JSC, and other sources
      as they are released. Email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join.

+     GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
+     System and other satellite navigation positioning systems. Email to
+     gps-request@esseye.si.com to join.
+
      Space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in
      space-related companies. Email Vincent Cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join.

***************
*** 223,227 ****
--- 227,241 ----
      1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
      NASA personnel.

+     Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
+     have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
+     detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
+     Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write
+
+	  NASA
+	  Inspector General
+	  P.O. Box 23089
+	  L'enfant Plaza Station
+	  Washington DC 20024

  NEXT: FAQ #3/15 - Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.data
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06410	Thu Apr  1 14:47:26 1993
--- FAQ.data	Thu Apr  1 14:46:54 1993
***************
*** 216,237 ****
	  Telephone: (301) 286-6695

	  Email address:   request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
-
-
-     SPACE AND PLANETARY IMAGE FACILITY
-
-     Available 24 hours a day via anonymous FTP from pioneer.unm.edu. Has
-     approximately 150 CD-ROM's full of imagery, raw, and tabular data. To
-     start, get the file:
-
-	  pioneer.unm.edu:pub/info/beginner-info
-
-     This will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data
-     from their machine. beginner-info has been translated to other
-     languages, you should look inside pub/info for the particular language
-     that meets your needs.
-
-     Contact help@pioneer.unm.edu.


      SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
--- 216,221 ----

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.math
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06415	Thu Apr  1 14:47:28 1993
--- FAQ.math	Thu Apr  1 14:46:56 1993
***************
*** 60,65 ****
--- 60,71 ----
	  Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	  period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
	  have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.
+
+     _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
+     Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
+     Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
+     #PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
+     this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.

      _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
      distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.references
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06420	Thu Apr  1 14:47:30 1993
--- FAQ.references	Thu Apr  1 14:46:59 1993
***************
*** 93,100 ****
      US Naval Observatory
	  202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
	  202-653-1507 General
-	  202-653-1545 Nautical Almanac Office (info on the Interactive
-	      Computer Ephemeris)

      Willmann-Bell
      P.O. Box 35025
--- 93,98 ----
***************
*** 138,151 ****
      SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
      suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
      mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
!     orbit vehicle is uncertain at present; for considerably more detail on
!     the SSRT program, get the document

!	  ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/DeltaClipper

!     by anonymous FTP or through the email server.


      HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

      Official names are decided by committees of the International
--- 136,151 ----
      SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
      suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
      mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
!     orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.

!     An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
!     anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

!	  bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper

+     Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.

+
      HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

      Official names are decided by committees of the International
***************
*** 223,228 ****
--- 223,236 ----
      University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
      including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
      various Orbiters.
+
+
+     ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
+
+     A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
+     available by anonymous FTP in:
+
+	  ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites


      SPACECRAFT MODELS

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.addresses
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06435	Thu Apr  1 14:47:34 1993
--- FAQ.addresses	Thu Apr  1 14:46:51 1993
***************
*** 75,80 ****
--- 75,85 ----
	  the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
	  contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
	  They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.
+
+	  A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
+	  FTP in
+
+	      ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription

      NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
      Houston, TX 77058

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.new_probes
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06450	Thu Apr  1 14:47:38 1993
--- FAQ.new_probes	Thu Apr  1 14:46:58 1993
***************
*** 8,13 ****
--- 8,19 ----
      team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.


+     ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
+     Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
+     Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
+     scintillation proportional counters.
+
+
      CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
      NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
      system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
***************
*** 98,115 ****


      MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
!     surface at high resolution. Currently (11/92) in mapping cycle 4,
!     collecting a global gravity map.


      MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
!     Launched 9/24/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (3/93) in
      transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
      one martian year (687 days).


!     TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched in
!     August 1992 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
      TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
      observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
      increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
--- 104,121 ----


      MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
!     surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
!     map.


      MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
!     Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in
      transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
      one martian year (687 days).


!     TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
!     8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
      TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
      observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
      increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also

===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.astronaut
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06465	Thu Apr  1 14:47:43 1993
--- FAQ.astronaut	Thu Apr  1 14:46:52 1993
***************
*** 162,174 ****
      specific standards:

	   Distant visual acuity:
!		20/100 or better uncorrected,
		correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	   Blood pressure:
		140/90 measured in sitting position.

!     3. Height between 60 and 76 inches.

      Pilot Astronaut Candidate:

--- 162,174 ----
      specific standards:

	   Distant visual acuity:
!		20/150 or better uncorrected,
		correctable to 20/20, each eye.

	   Blood pressure:
		140/90 measured in sitting position.

!     3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.

      Pilot Astronaut Candidate:

after prepro  Subject Diffs to scispacesciastro Frequently Asked Questions
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195016 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 294

Archivename spacediff

DIFFS SINCE LAST FAQ POSTING IN POSTING ORDER

These are handedited context diffs do not attempt to use them to patch
old copies of the FAQ


diff t c r118 FAQintro
 tmpRCSt1a06400	Thu Apr  1 144722 1993
 FAQintro	Thu Apr  1 144655 1993

 101107 
		  NASA Langley Technical Reports
		  NASA Spacelink
		  National Space Science Data Center
		  Space And Planetary Image Facility
		  Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info Service
		  Starcat
		  Astronomical Databases
 101106 

 130135 
 129135 
	      LLNL great exploration
	      Lunar Prospector
	      Lunar science and activities
	      Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	      Spacecraft models
	      Rocket propulsion
	      Spacecraft design


diff t c r118 FAQnet
 tmpRCSt1a06405	Thu Apr  1 144724 1993
 FAQnet	Thu Apr  1 144657 1993

 5863 
 5867 
      elements are sent out on the list from Dr Kelso JSC and other sources
      as they are released Email to elementsrequesttelesoftcom to join

     GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
     System and other satellite navigation positioning systems Email to
     gpsrequestesseyesicom to join

      Spaceinvestors is a list for information relevant to investing in
      spacerelated companies Email Vincent Cate vaccscmuedu to join


 223227 
 227241 
      1030 If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact
      NASA personnel

     Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste None
     have ever been substantiated to any significant degree Readers
     detecting Fraud Waste Abuse or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
     Inspector General 24hours at 8004249183 can be anonymous or write

	  NASA
	  Inspector General
	  PO Box 23089
	  Lenfant Plaza Station
	  Washington DC 20024

  NEXT FAQ 315  Online and some offline sources of images data etc


diff t c r118 FAQdata
 tmpRCSt1a06410	Thu Apr  1 144726 1993
 FAQdata	Thu Apr  1 144654 1993

 216237 
	  Telephone 301 2866695

	  Email address   requestnssdcagsfcnasagov


     SPACE AND PLANETARY IMAGE FACILITY

     Available 24 hours a day via anonymous FTP from pioneerunmedu Has
     approximately 150 CDROMs full of imagery raw and tabular data To
     start get the file

	  pioneerunmedupubinfobeginnerinfo

     This will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data
     from their machine beginnerinfo has been translated to other
     languages you should look inside pubinfo for the particular language
     that meets your needs

     Contact helppioneerunmedu


      SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
 216221 


diff t c r118 FAQmath
 tmpRCSt1a06415	Thu Apr  1 144728 1993
 FAQmath	Thu Apr  1 144656 1993

 6065 
 6071 
	  Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	  period  or  300 years from now Pluto is included but stated to
	  have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes

     _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ MICA produced by the US
     Naval Observatory Valid for years 19901999 55 80 outside US
     Available for IBM order PB93500163HDV or Macintosh order
     PB93500155HDV From the NTIS sales desk 7034874650 I believe
     this is intended to replace the USNOs Interactive Computer Ephemeris

      _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ from the US Naval Observatory
      distributed on IBMPC floppy disks 35 WillmannBell Covers dates


diff t c r118 FAQreferences
 tmpRCSt1a06420	Thu Apr  1 144730 1993
 FAQreferences	Thu Apr  1 144659 1993

 93100 
      US Naval Observatory
	  2026531079 USNO Bulletin Board via modem
	  2026531507 General
	  2026531545 Nautical Almanac Office info on the Interactive
	      Computer Ephemeris

      WillmannBell
      PO Box 35025
 9398 

 138151 
      SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
      suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
      mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
     orbit vehicle is uncertain at present for considerably more detail on
     the SSRT program get the document

	  amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQDeltaClipper

     by anonymous FTP or through the email server


      HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

      Official names are decided by committees of the International
 136151 
      SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
      suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
      mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
     orbit vehicle called Delta Clipper is uncertain at present

     An collection of pictures and files relating to DCX is available by
     anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

	  bongoccutexasedupubdeltaclipper

     Chris W Johnson chrisjemxccutexasedu maintains the archive


      HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

      Official names are decided by committees of the International

 223228 
 223236 
      University Press 1970 Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions
      including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
      various Orbiters


     ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES

     A list of Earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is
     available by anonymous FTP in

	  amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQSatellites


      SPACECRAFT MODELS


diff t c r118 FAQaddresses
 tmpRCSt1a06435	Thu Apr  1 144734 1993
 FAQaddresses	Thu Apr  1 144651 1993

 7580 
 7585 
	  the latter an SF 171 is useless Employees are Caltech employees
	  contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities
	  They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers

	  A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
	  FTP in

	      amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQJPLDescription

      NASA Johnson Manned Space Center JSC
      Houston TX 77058


diff t c r118 FAQnew_probes
 tmpRCSt1a06450	Thu Apr  1 144738 1993
 FAQnew_probes	Thu Apr  1 144658 1993

 813 
 819 
      team ISASNASDA launch schedules press kits


     ASUKA ASTROD  ISAS Japan Xray astronomy satellite launched into
     Earth orbit on 22093 Equipped with largearea widewavelength 120
     Angstrom Xray telescope Xray CCD cameras and imaging gas
     scintillation proportional counters


      CASSINI  Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe Cassini is a joint
      NASAESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
      system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe Cassini

 98115 


      MAGELLAN  Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
     surface at high resolution Currently 1192 in mapping cycle 4
     collecting a global gravity map


      MARS OBSERVER  Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
     Launched 92492 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 393 in
      transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
      one martian year 687 days


     TOPEXPoseidon  Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched in
     August 1992 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
      TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
      observations of the sea level for several years substantially
      increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also
 104121 


      MAGELLAN  Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
     surface at high resolution Currently 493 collecting a global gravity
     map


      MARS OBSERVER  Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
     Launched 92592 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 493 in
      transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
      one martian year 687 days


     TOPEXPoseidon  Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched
     81092 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
      TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
      observations of the sea level for several years substantially
      increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also


diff t c r118 FAQastronaut
 tmpRCSt1a06465	Thu Apr  1 144743 1993
 FAQastronaut	Thu Apr  1 144652 1993

 162174 
      specific standards

	   Distant visual acuity
		20100 or better uncorrected
		correctable to 2020 each eye

	   Blood pressure
		14090 measured in sitting position

     3 Height between 60 and 76 inches

      Pilot Astronaut Candidate

 162174 
      specific standards

	   Distant visual acuity
		20150 or better uncorrected
		correctable to 2020 each eye

	   Blood pressure
		14090 measured in sitting position

     3 Height between 585 and 76 inches

      Pilot Astronaut Candidate

preprocess doc  From: semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Emmett)
Subject: Moscow Aviation Institute summer school
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Lines: 103

I have attached a copy of an announcement I picked up during my trip to
Moscow last week.  I have several friends at the Moscow Aviation
Institute who have asked me to post this announcement.  (I have done
some editing, but the contents is unchanged from the original
announcement.) 

For those of you not familiar with the Moscow Aviation Institute, it is
the leading Russian school of higher education dedicated to the training
of aircraft and spacecraft designers.  It specializes in airframe
design, powerplant design, control systems, and power systems.
Virtually all of the major former Soviet airframe designers (Tupolev,
Su, Iluchine, Migoyan, etc.) were schooled at MAI.

I had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at
MAI.  The aircraft include Mig23, Su 27, Yak 38, the cockpit of an
F-111(!), among others.  It was a fascinating and eye opening
experience, expecially given the fact that the museum was, until a year
or so ago, closed to virtually everyone.  I also had the opportunity to
see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines
for future space craft use.

If you have any questions about the Institute, or the program, I would
be glad to try and answer them.  The institute, and most of it's faculty
have e-mail addresses.  However, it takes about a day or so for the
receiver to get the message.  They are still a bit antiquated - but they
are rapidly changing!

Steve Emmett
semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu

ps  please send any questions you have for me via e-mail.  George Mason
university has about a 2 week (!) delay in news feed delivery.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

		MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL AVIATION SCHOOL

The aviation school "Poljot" (meaning Flight) is organized by the the
Moscow Aviation Institute, the prominent Russian Center of airspace
education and the foreign trade firm Poljot, well known in various
parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches.

The course of studies will last only 50 days, but during this time
you will have the unique opportunity:
	- to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation
disciplines, the history and theory of techniques, and design of
airplanes;
	- to visit and get acquainted with the world known Russian 
aviation firms - TU, MiG, Yak, Il and Su;
	- to meet and have discussions with famous aviation
scientists, engineers and pilots;
	- to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation
techniques which were closed for many years to the public;
	- to see the International Airspace Show which will take
place in Moscow from 31 August through 3 September 1993;
	- to visit famous art museums, historical and architectural
monuments, theatres and concert halls;
	- to take part in sport competitions and have a great time
with new friends.

The Director of the school is Mr. Oleg Samelovich, a well known
Russian scientist, professor, general designer and the Chief of the
Airplanes Design Department of the Moscow Aviation Institute.  Mr.
Samelovich is one of the designers of the the Su-24, Su-25, and Su-27

The lectures are given in English, using a multi-media concept.  The
students are provided with all the necessary text books and
literature.  After the full course of studies are completed, the
student will receive a special certificate of graduation.

The cost of studies, including hotel, meals, excursions, theatres,
etc is $3500.

To apply for admission, send your application to:

109147 Moscow Marksistskaja 34
Foreign Trade Firm "Poljot"
274 00 13 (phone)
274 00 22 (FAX)
411989 POLEX SU (telex)

In your application, include your full name, address, date and place
of birth.  In addition, include complete passport information, as well
as a description of your education.

Upon receipt of this information, "Poljot" will immediately forward
to you an official invitation for obtaining a Russian entrance visa
as well as details on payment.

Should you require additional information, please do not hesitate to
contact us.

(signed)	O. Samelovich

------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 

Steve Emmett				 semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------
CSI/Physics, George Mason University

after prepro  From semmettgmuvax2gmuedu Steve Emmett
Subject Moscow Aviation Institute summer school
Organization George Mason University Fairfax Virginia USA
Lines 103

I have attached a copy of an announcement I picked up during my trip to
Moscow last week  I have several friends at the Moscow Aviation
Institute who have asked me to post this announcement  I have done
some editing but the contents is unchanged from the original
announcement 

For those of you not familiar with the Moscow Aviation Institute it is
the leading Russian school of higher education dedicated to the training
of aircraft and spacecraft designers  It specializes in airframe
design powerplant design control systems and power systems
Virtually all of the major former Soviet airframe designers Tupolev
Su Iluchine Migoyan etc were schooled at MAI

I had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at
MAI  The aircraft include Mig23 Su 27 Yak 38 the cockpit of an
F111 among others  It was a fascinating and eye opening
experience expecially given the fact that the museum was until a year
or so ago closed to virtually everyone  I also had the opportunity to
see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines
for future space craft use

If you have any questions about the Institute or the program I would
be glad to try and answer them  The institute and most of its faculty
have email addresses  However it takes about a day or so for the
receiver to get the message  They are still a bit antiquated  but they
are rapidly changing

Steve Emmett
semmettgmuvax2gmuedu

ps  please send any questions you have for me via email  George Mason
university has about a 2 week  delay in news feed delivery




		MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL AVIATION SCHOOL

The aviation school Poljot meaning Flight is organized by the the
Moscow Aviation Institute the prominent Russian Center of airspace
education and the foreign trade firm Poljot well known in various
parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches

The course of studies will last only 50 days but during this time
you will have the unique opportunity
	 to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation
disciplines the history and theory of techniques and design of
airplanes
	 to visit and get acquainted with the world known Russian 
aviation firms  TU MiG Yak Il and Su
	 to meet and have discussions with famous aviation
scientists engineers and pilots
	 to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation
techniques which were closed for many years to the public
	 to see the International Airspace Show which will take
place in Moscow from 31 August through 3 September 1993
	 to visit famous art museums historical and architectural
monuments theatres and concert halls
	 to take part in sport competitions and have a great time
with new friends

The Director of the school is Mr Oleg Samelovich a well known
Russian scientist professor general designer and the Chief of the
Airplanes Design Department of the Moscow Aviation Institute  Mr
Samelovich is one of the designers of the the Su24 Su25 and Su27

The lectures are given in English using a multimedia concept  The
students are provided with all the necessary text books and
literature  After the full course of studies are completed the
student will receive a special certificate of graduation

The cost of studies including hotel meals excursions theatres
etc is 3500

To apply for admission send your application to

109147 Moscow Marksistskaja 34
Foreign Trade Firm Poljot
274 00 13 phone
274 00 22 FAX
411989 POLEX SU telex

In your application include your full name address date and place
of birth  In addition include complete passport information as well
as a description of your education

Upon receipt of this information Poljot will immediately forward
to you an official invitation for obtaining a Russian entrance visa
as well as details on payment

Should you require additional information please do not hesitate to
contact us

signed	O Samelovich




 

Steve Emmett				 semmettgmuvax2gmuedu

CSIPhysics George Mason University

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 60

In article <11847@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>In article <115670@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>>In article <11826@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>>I am refuting nothing but simply telling you what I see, which is
>>childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted. BCCI was not 
>>an Islamic bank, so this post has nothing to do with Islamic banks. 
>>I am tiring of this infantile garbage, so I simply evaluated it
>>as such.

>>>  Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit?  Or did I miss the full
>>>  grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism?

>>You may be having difficulty seeing the light because you
>>have your head up your ass. I suggest making sure this is 
>>not the case before posting again.

>  It's time for your lesson in debate, Gregg.

Yeah, right.

>Begin included text:
>From vice!news.tek.com!uunet!psinntp!wrldlnk!usenet Sun Apr 18 10:01:11 PDT 1993

>I noticed a post on this topic in soc.religion.islam.   And since the topic
>of the BCCI being/not being an Islamic bank has come up, I have left in the
>one mention of the BCCI bank called "How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of
>banking" from this bibliography.


>Bennett, Neil.  "How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of banking".  The 
>Times.  August 13, 1991.

So, let's see. If some guy writes a piece with a title that implies
something is the case then it must be so, is that it?

>  This is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone
>  respect it, Gregg.  Any questions?  And I even managed to include
>  the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass.  What's
>  your excuse?

This supports nothing. I have no reason to believe that this is 
piece is anything other than another anti-Islamic slander job.
I have no respect for titles, only for real content. I can look
up this article if I want, true. But I can tell you BCCI was _not_
an Islamic bank. Seeing as I'm spending my time responding to
propaganda (in responding to this little sub-thread) I really
don't feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the
effect that the propaganda is false. If someone wants to discuss
the issue more seriously then I'd be glad to have a real discussion,
providing references, etc.


Gregg





after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 60

In article 11847viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

In article 115670buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

In article 11826viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

I am refuting nothing but simply telling you what I see which is
childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted BCCI was not 
an Islamic bank so this post has nothing to do with Islamic banks 
I am tiring of this infantile garbage so I simply evaluated it
as such

  Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit  Or did I miss the full
  grandeur of its content by virtue of my blinding atheism

You may be having difficulty seeing the light because you
have your head up your ass I suggest making sure this is 
not the case before posting again

  Its time for your lesson in debate Gregg

Yeah right

Begin included text
From vicenewstekcomuunetpsinntpwrldlnkusenet Sun Apr 18 100111 PDT 1993

I noticed a post on this topic in socreligionislam   And since the topic
of the BCCI beingnot being an Islamic bank has come up I have left in the
one mention of the BCCI bank called How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of
banking from this bibliography


Bennett Neil  How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of banking  The 
Times  August 13 1991

So lets see If some guy writes a piece with a title that implies
something is the case then it must be so is that it

  This is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone
  respect it Gregg  Any questions  And I even managed to include
  the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass  Whats
  your excuse

This supports nothing I have no reason to believe that this is 
piece is anything other than another antiIslamic slander job
I have no respect for titles only for real content I can look
up this article if I want true But I can tell you BCCI was _not_
an Islamic bank Seeing as Im spending my time responding to
propaganda in responding to this little subthread I really
dont feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the
effect that the propaganda is false If someone wants to discuss
the issue more seriously then Id be glad to have a real discussion
providing references etc


Gregg





preprocess doc  From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: islamic authority [sic] over women
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 62

 
who: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
what: <kmr4.1426.733987668@po.cwru.edu>
with: rush@leland.Stanford.EDU 
what: <1993Apr5.050524.9361@leland.Stanford.EDU>
 
>>> Other readers: I just joined, but is this guy for real?
>>> I'm simply amazed.
 
KR> "Sadly yes. Don't loose any sleep over Old 'Zlumber. Just
KR> have some fun with him, but he is basically harmless. 
KR> At least, if you don't work in NY city."
 
I don't find it hard to believe that "Ole 'Zlumber" really believes
the hate and ignorant prattle he writes. The frightening thought is,
there are people even worse than he! To say that feminism equals
"superiority" over men is laughable as long as he doesn't then proceed
to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike---
aka the Canada slaughter that occured a few years ago. But then, men
killing women is nothing new. Islamic Fundamentalists just have a
"better" excuse (Qu'ran).
 
    from the Vancouver Sun, Thursday, October 4, 1990
    by John Davidson, Canadian Press
 
    MONTREAL-- Perhaps it's the letter to the five-year old
    daughter that shocks the most.
 
    "I hope one day you will be old enough to understand what
    happened to your parents," wrote Patrick Prevost. "I loved
    your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred."
 
    Police found the piece of paper near Prevost's body in his
    apartment in northeast Montreal.
 
    They say the 39-year-old mechanic committed suicide after
    killing his wife, Jocelyne Parent, 31.
 
    The couple had been separated for a month and the woman had
    gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money
    for food. A violent quarrel broke out and Prevost attacked
    his wife with a kitchen knife, cutting her throat, police said.
 
    She was only the latest of 13 women slain by a husband or
    lover in Quebec in the last five weeks.
 
    Five children have also been slain as a result of the same
    domestic "battles."
 
    Last year in Quebec alone, 29 [women] were slain by their
    husbands. That was more than one-third of such cases across
    Canada, according to statistics from the Canadian Centre for
    Justice. [rest of article ommited]
 
Then to say that women are somehow "better" or "should" be the
one to "stay home" and raise a child is also laughable. Women
have traditionally done hard labor to support a family, often 
more than men in many cultures, throughout history. Seems to me
it takes at least two adults to raise a child, and that BOTH should
stay home to do so!

--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From DavidRiceofa123fidonetorg
Subject islamic authority [sic] over women
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 62

 
who kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
what 
with rushlelandStanfordEDU 
what 1993Apr50505249361lelandStanfordEDU
 
 Other readers I just joined but is this guy for real
 Im simply amazed
 
KR Sadly yes Dont loose any sleep over Old Zlumber Just
KR have some fun with him but he is basically harmless 
KR At least if you dont work in NY city
 
I dont find it hard to believe that Ole Zlumber really believes
the hate and ignorant prattle he writes The frightening thought is
there are people even worse than he To say that feminism equals
superiority over men is laughable as long as he doesnt then proceed
to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike
aka the Canada slaughter that occured a few years ago But then men
killing women is nothing new Islamic Fundamentalists just have a
better excuse Quran
 
    from the Vancouver Sun Thursday October 4 1990
    by John Davidson Canadian Press
 
    MONTREAL Perhaps its the letter to the fiveyear old
    daughter that shocks the most
 
    I hope one day you will be old enough to understand what
    happened to your parents wrote Patrick Prevost I loved
    your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred
 
    Police found the piece of paper near Prevosts body in his
    apartment in northeast Montreal
 
    They say the 39yearold mechanic committed suicide after
    killing his wife Jocelyne Parent 31
 
    The couple had been separated for a month and the woman had
    gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money
    for food A violent quarrel broke out and Prevost attacked
    his wife with a kitchen knife cutting her throat police said
 
    She was only the latest of 13 women slain by a husband or
    lover in Quebec in the last five weeks
 
    Five children have also been slain as a result of the same
    domestic battles
 
    Last year in Quebec alone 29 [women] were slain by their
    husbands That was more than onethird of such cases across
    Canada according to statistics from the Canadian Centre for
    Justice [rest of article ommited]
 
Then to say that women are somehow better or should be the
one to stay home and raise a child is also laughable Women
have traditionally done hard labor to support a family often 
more than men in many cultures throughout history Seems to me
it takes at least two adults to raise a child and that BOTH should
stay home to do so

 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 24

Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:

>the "Environmental
>Billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
>804x1609 meters.  Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area,
>deployed by the inflatable 'frame'.
>   To help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for
>maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading
>sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the Earth's
>delicate protective ozone layer," according to Mike Lawson, head of
>SMI. Furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
>exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the Earth's
>atmosphere. According to IMI, "as the biodegradable material burns,
>it will release ozone-building components that will literally
>replenish the ozone layer."
 ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^

 Can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry?  Granted 
it probably a great advertising gimic, but it doesn't sound at all practical.

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Space Advertising 2 of 2
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 24

WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg writes

the Environmental
Billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters  Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area
deployed by the inflatable frame
   To help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading
sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the Earths
delicate protective ozone layer according to Mike Lawson head of
SMI Furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to reenter the Earths
atmosphere According to IMI as the biodegradable material burns
it will release ozonebuilding components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer
 ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^

 Can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry  Granted 
it probably a great advertising gimic but it doesnt sound at all practical

 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.020504.19326@ultb.isc.rit.edu>

snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.

There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both
atheists AND theists.  I'm sure Bobby can list quite a few for the atheist
side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at
genocide.  Perhaps, since I'm a bit weak on history, somone here would like
to give a list of wars caused/led by theists?  I can think of a few (Hitler
claimed to be a Christian for example) but a more complete list would
probably be more effective in showing Bobby just how absurd his statement
is.

> Peace,

On a side note, I notice you always sign your posts "Peace".  Perhaps you
should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their
beliefs?

> Bobby Mozumder

Nanci

.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr502050419326ultbiscritedu

snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
 More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else

There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both
atheists AND theists  Im sure Bobby can list quite a few for the atheist
side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at
genocide  Perhaps since Im a bit weak on history somone here would like
to give a list of wars causedled by theists  I can think of a few Hitler
claimed to be a Christian for example but a more complete list would
probably be more effective in showing Bobby just how absurd his statement
is

 Peace

On a side note I notice you always sign your posts Peace  Perhaps you
should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their
beliefs

 Bobby Mozumder

Nanci


If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others


preprocess doc  From: simon@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Simon Tardell)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Nntp-Posting-Host: cyklop.nada.kth.se
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 14

In <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:

>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.

>I would appreciate any advice.

I once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times. But not.
This gave  discrepancy of upto six minutes. If you fit a sine series
you'll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though. This
presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the Earths orbit.

-- 
Simon Tardell, Ff88, simon@nada.kth.se              V}ga v{gra cgs!

after prepro  From simoncyklopnadakthse Simon Tardell
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
NntpPostingHost cyklopnadakthse
Organization Royal Institute of Technology Stockholm Sweden
Lines 14

In 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes

Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

I would appreciate any advice

I once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times But not
This gave  discrepancy of upto six minutes If you fit a sine series
youll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though This
presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the Earths orbit

 
Simon Tardell Ff88 simonnadakthse              Vga vgra cgs

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 37

suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi writes:
> On 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com said:
> :> God is eternal.    [A = B]
> :> Jesus is God.      [C = A]
> :> Therefore, Jesus is eternal.  [C = B]
> 
> :> This works both logically and mathematically.  God is of the set of
> :> things which are eternal.  Jesus is a subset of God.   Therefore
> :> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
> 
> Everything isn't always so logical....
> 
> Mercedes is a car.
> That girl is Mercedes.
> Therefore, that girl is a car?

Unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous.  Re-writing more carefully, we have
(at least) two possibilities.  The first:

Things called "Mercedes" are cars
That girl is called "Mercedes"
Therefore that girl is a car

That is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction.  It is not sound,
because the first statement is false.  Similarly, I would hold that Jim's
example is valid but not sound.

Another possible interpretation of what you wrote is:

There exists at least one car called "Mercedes"
That girl is called "Mercedes"
Therefore that girl is a car

-- which isn't valid.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 37

suopankistektoulufi writes
 On 5 Apr 93 112430 MST jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom said
  God is eternal    [A  B]
  Jesus is God      [C  A]
  Therefore Jesus is eternal  [C  B]
 
  This works both logically and mathematically  God is of the set of
  things which are eternal  Jesus is a subset of God   Therefore
  Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal
 
 Everything isnt always so logical
 
 Mercedes is a car
 That girl is Mercedes
 Therefore that girl is a car

Unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous  Rewriting more carefully we have
at least two possibilities  The first

Things called Mercedes are cars
That girl is called Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car

That is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction  It is not sound
because the first statement is false  Similarly I would hold that Jims
example is valid but not sound

Another possible interpretation of what you wrote is

There exists at least one car called Mercedes
That girl is called Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car

 which isnt valid


mathew

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Athei
From: sham@cs.arizona.edu (Shamim Zvonko Mohamed)
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
Lines: 29

In article <1993Apr19.151120.14068@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka) writes:
>In <930419.125145.9O3.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew writes:
>> I wonder if Noam Chomsky is reading this?
>
>      I could be wrong, but is he actually talking about outright
>_government_ control of the media, aka censorship?
>
>      If he doesn't, any quick one-stop-shopping reference to his works
>that'll tell me, in short, what he _does_ argue for?

"Manufacturing Consent," a film about the media. You alternative movie source
may have this; or to book it in your local alternative theatre, contact:

FILMS TRANSIT * INTERNATIONAL SALES
Jan Rofekamp
402 Notre Dame E.
Montreal, Quebec
Canada H2Y 1C8
Tel (514) 844-3358 * Fax (514) 844-7298
Telex 5560074 Filmtransmtl

(US readers: call Zeitgeist Films at 212 274 1989.)

-s
--
  Shamim Mohamed / {uunet,noao,cmcl2..}!arizona!shamim / shamim@cs.arizona.edu
  "Take this cross and garlic; here's a Mezuzah if he's Jewish; a page of the
    Koran if he's a Muslim; and if he's a Zen Buddhist, you're on your own."
   Member of the League for Programming Freedom - write to lpf@uunet.uu.net

after prepro  Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Athei
From shamcsarizonaedu Shamim Zvonko Mohamed
Organization U of Arizona CS Dept Tucson
Lines 29

In article 1993Apr1915112014068abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka writes
In 9304191251459O3rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
 I wonder if Noam Chomsky is reading this

      I could be wrong but is he actually talking about outright
_government_ control of the media aka censorship

      If he doesnt any quick onestopshopping reference to his works
thatll tell me in short what he _does_ argue for

Manufacturing Consent a film about the media You alternative movie source
may have this or to book it in your local alternative theatre contact

FILMS TRANSIT  INTERNATIONAL SALES
Jan Rofekamp
402 Notre Dame E
Montreal Quebec
Canada H2Y 1C8
Tel 514 8443358  Fax 514 8447298
Telex 5560074 Filmtransmtl

US readers call Zeitgeist Films at 212 274 1989

s

  Shamim Mohamed  uunetnoaocmcl2arizonashamim  shamimcsarizonaedu
  Take this cross and garlic heres a Mezuzah if hes Jewish a page of the
    Koran if hes a Muslim and if hes a Zen Buddhist youre on your own
   Member of the League for Programming Freedom  write to lpfuunetuunet

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 18

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
>May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.

>Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????

A good summary has been posted (thanks), but I wanted to add another comment.
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in 
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing.  Sorry I don't 
rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. 
Anyone else know anything on this angle?

Hrumph.  They didn't send _me_ anything :(
-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Distribution na
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 18

prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA

Does anyone know more about this  How much to attend

A good summary has been posted thanks but I wanted to add another comment
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in 
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing  Sorry I dont 
rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable 
Anyone else know anything on this angle

Hrumph  They didnt send _me_ anything 
 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI (Marcus Lindroos INF)
Subject: Into Infinity?(WAS:Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan?)
In-Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu's message of 15 Apr 1993 22:22:19 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 36

In <1qkn6rINNett@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:

> In article <1993Apr15.170048.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
> 
> >This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
> >States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K... Later, they went
> >on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.
> >
> >The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
> >airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
> >look at.

Exactly. Some of the SPACE:1999 effects remain first-rate even today. 
 
> They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO.  Some of the
> concepts even showed up in SPACE: 1999. 
> 

Later on, the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in TV history by flying "Into Infinity."
This was a one-off thing done as part of BBC's "educational SF" series "The
Day After Tomorrow." The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light ("lightship Altares"), the four-man crew eventually 
journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy (I
think). I saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very much, but
then again I was a fan of SPACE:1999 so I guess I was easily satisfied in those
days:-)
---
Does anyone know if "Into Infinity" has been released on video? I have some
SPACE:1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc. also are available in
England.
 
MARCU$
> 
>     Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
>   -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From MLINDROOSFINABOABOFI Marcus Lindroos INF
Subject Into InfinityWASRe Doppelganger was Re Vulcan
InReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedus message of 15 Apr 1993 222219 GMT
Organization Abo Akademi University Finland
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 36

In 1qkn6rINNettmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes

 In article 1993Apr151700481fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
 
 This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
 States and as Doppelganger in the UK Later they went
 on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999
 
 The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
 airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
 look at

Exactly Some of the SPACE1999 effects remain firstrate even today 
 
 They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO  Some of the
 concepts even showed up in SPACE 1999 
 

Later on the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudoscientific shows in TV history by flying Into Infinity
This was a oneoff thing done as part of BBCs educational SF series The
Day After Tomorrow The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light lightship Altares the fourman crew eventually 
journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy I
think I saw this as a 9yearold back in 1976 and liked it very much but
then again I was a fan of SPACE1999 so I guess I was easily satisfied in those
days

Does anyone know if Into Infinity has been released on video I have some
SPACE1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc also are available in
England
 
MARCU
 
     Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                      SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
Lines: 60
NNTP-Posting-Host: math9.math.umbc.edu

In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.

Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight.  You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times.

--
Rouben Rostamian                          Telephone: 410-455-2458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics  e-mail:
University of Maryland Baltimore County   bitnet: rostamian@umbc.bitnet
Baltimore, MD 21228, USA                  internet: rouben@math.umbc.edu
======================================================================
Definitions:

z = the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its
orbital plane.  In case of the Earth z is about 23.5 degrees, I think.
I do not recall the exact value.  In case of Uranus, z is almost
90 degrees.

u = latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured.
Paris is at about 45 degrees.  North pole is at 90.

a = angular position of the planet around the sun.  As a goes from
0 to 360 degrees, the planet makes a full circle around the sun.
The spring equinox occurs at a=0.

L = daylight fraction = (duration of daylight)/(duration of a full day).
On the equator (u=0) L is always 1/2.  Near the north pole (u=90 degrees)
L is sometimes one and sometimes zero, depending on the time of the year.

Computation:
Define the auxiliary angles p and q by:
sin p = sin a sin z
cos q = h ( tan u tan p ),       (0 < q < 180 degrees)

Conclusion:
L = q / 180   (if q is measured in degrees)
L = q / pi    (if q is measured in radians)

Wait!  But what is h?
The cutoff function h is defined as follows:

h (s) = s    if  |s| < 1
      = 1    if   s > 1
      = -1   if   s < 1

As an interesting exercise, plot L versus a.   The graph will shows
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year.
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles.
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle.

--
Rouben Rostamian                          Telephone: 410-455-2458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics  e-mail:
University of Maryland Baltimore County   bitnet: rostamian@umbc.bitnet
Baltimore, MD 21228, USA                  internet: rouben@math.umbc.edu

after prepro  From roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization University of Maryland Baltimore County Campus
Lines 60
NNTPPostingHost math9mathumbcedu

In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes

Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight  You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times


Rouben Rostamian                          Telephone 4104552458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics  email
University of Maryland Baltimore County   bitnet rostamianumbcbitnet
Baltimore MD 21228 USA                  internet roubenmathumbcedu

Definitions

z  the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its
orbital plane  In case of the Earth z is about 235 degrees I think
I do not recall the exact value  In case of Uranus z is almost
90 degrees

u  latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured
Paris is at about 45 degrees  North pole is at 90

a  angular position of the planet around the sun  As a goes from
0 to 360 degrees the planet makes a full circle around the sun
The spring equinox occurs at a0

L  daylight fraction  duration of daylightduration of a full day
On the equator u0 L is always 12  Near the north pole u90 degrees
L is sometimes one and sometimes zero depending on the time of the year

Computation
Define the auxiliary angles p and q by
sin p  sin a sin z
cos q  h  tan u tan p        0  q  180 degrees

Conclusion
L  q  180   if q is measured in degrees
L  q  pi    if q is measured in radians

Wait  But what is h
The cutoff function h is defined as follows

h s  s    if  s  1
       1    if   s  1
       1   if   s  1

As an interesting exercise plot L versus a   The graph will shows
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle


Rouben Rostamian                          Telephone 4104552458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics  email
University of Maryland Baltimore County   bitnet rostamianumbcbitnet
Baltimore MD 21228 USA                  internet roubenmathumbcedu

preprocess doc  From: HoffmanE@space1.spacenet.jhuapl.edu (Hoffman, Eric J.)
Subject: Re: Drag free satellites
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 37
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <1raee7$b8s@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
(Ron Baalke) writes:
>> In answer
>>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>>a concept."
>
>SO what's a drag free satellite?   coated with WD-40?


     TRIAD, the first drag-free satellite, was designed and built by the 
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory and launched 2 Sept 1972.  The 
satellite was in three sections separated by two booms.  The central section 
housed the DISCOS Disturbance Compensation System, which consisted of a proof 
mass of special non-magnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity.  The 
proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit, free from drag and radiation 
pressure.  Teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered 
around the proof mass, thereby flying the entire satellite drag free.

     TRIAD was one of the APL-designed Navy Navigation Satellites.  The 
2nd-generation operational navigation satellites flying today (NOVA) use a 
single-axis version of DISCOS.  TRIAD was also the sixth APL satellite to be 
powered by an RTG (APL flew the first nuclear power supply in space, in 1961).

     Further info on TRIAD, DISCOS, etc. can be found in "Spacecraft Design 
Innovations in the APL Space Department," Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest, 
Vol. 13, No. 1 (1992).

                                                      --Eric Hoffman








after prepro  From HoffmanEspace1spacenetjhuapledu Hoffman Eric J
Subject Re Drag free satellites
Organization UTexas MailtoNews Gateway
Lines 37
NNTPPostingHost csutexasedu

In article 1raee7b8saccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
 In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept

SO whats a drag free satellite   coated with WD40


     TRIAD the first dragfree satellite was designed and built by the 
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory and launched 2 Sept 1972  The 
satellite was in three sections separated by two booms  The central section 
housed the DISCOS Disturbance Compensation System which consisted of a proof 
mass of special nonmagnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity  The 
proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit free from drag and radiation 
pressure  Teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered 
around the proof mass thereby flying the entire satellite drag free

     TRIAD was one of the APLdesigned Navy Navigation Satellites  The 
2ndgeneration operational navigation satellites flying today NOVA use a 
singleaxis version of DISCOS  TRIAD was also the sixth APL satellite to be 
powered by an RTG APL flew the first nuclear power supply in space in 1961

     Further info on TRIAD DISCOS etc can be found in Spacecraft Design 
Innovations in the APL Space Department Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest 
Vol 13 No 1 1992

                                                      Eric Hoffman








preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station, Go Commerical.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.191701.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

Sounds liek what the FED has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use
certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a
commerical company or consortium of companies (such as like Alyeska) for a
small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such.. Such as tax
and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products.. The commerical
builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier (taxes
, contracts, regulatory concesions and such..)

Is it workable, just might work..

After all, if China can lease out Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong can
make money, this could work..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Alaska Pipeline and Space Station Go Commerical
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51917011
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

Sounds liek what the FED has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use
certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a
commerical company or consortium of companies such as like Alyeska for a
small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such Such as tax
and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products The commerical
builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier taxes
 contracts regulatory concesions and such

Is it workable just might work

After all if China can lease out Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong can
make money this could work


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>>I think you should support your first claim, that people will simply
>>harass me no matter what, as I doubt this is true. I think *some* of the
>>theists will be at a loss, and that is enough reason for me.
>Because "IN GOD WE TRUST" is a motto on the coins, and the coins
>are a representation of the government, christians are given
>ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic.

So, we should ban the ammunition?  Why not get rid of the guns?

>And yes, I have heard this used in conversation with christians.
>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>should not have available to use.

It is worse than others?  The National Anthem?  Should it be changed too?
God Bless America?  The list goes on...

>Imagine if the next year's set of coins were labeled with
>the motto:   "GOD IS DEAD".
>Certainly, such a statement on U.S. coins would offend almost
>every christian.  And I'd be tempted to rub that motto in the
>face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
>gets boring.

Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.

>Any statement printed on an item that represents
>the government is an endorsement by the government.

Oh?

>The coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god.

An endorsement, or an acknowledgement?  I think gods are things that people
are proud of, but I don't think the motto encourages belief.

>I don't particularly feel like trusting in god,
>so the government IS putting me down with every
>coin it prints.

Is it?

[...]
>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
>   "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"

Would you approve of such a motto?

>Whether the motto was intended to be anti-atheist or not,
>it turns up as an open invitation to use as an anti-atheist tool.

And removing the tool will solve the problem?

Or will it increase the problem?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  writes

I think you should support your first claim that people will simply
harass me no matter what as I doubt this is true I think some of the
theists will be at a loss and that is enough reason for me
Because IN GOD WE TRUST is a motto on the coins and the coins
are a representation of the government christians are given
ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic

So we should ban the ammunition  Why not get rid of the guns

And yes I have heard this used in conversation with christians
Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use

It is worse than others  The National Anthem  Should it be changed too
God Bless America  The list goes on

Imagine if the next years set of coins were labeled with
the motto   GOD IS DEAD
Certainly such a statement on US coins would offend almost
every christian  And Id be tempted to rub that motto in the
face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
gets boring

Then youd be no better than the people you despise

Any statement printed on an item that represents
the government is an endorsement by the government

Oh

The coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god

An endorsement or an acknowledgement  I think gods are things that people
are proud of but I dont think the motto encourages belief

I dont particularly feel like trusting in god
so the government IS putting me down with every
coin it prints

Is it

[]
For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
   In god gods or godlessness we trust

Would you approve of such a motto

Whether the motto was intended to be antiatheist or not
it turns up as an open invitation to use as an antiatheist tool

And removing the tool will solve the problem

Or will it increase the problem

keith

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Origins of the bible.
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 14

Adda Wainwright writes:

>He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in
>time which were syllable-perfect.  This therefore meant that there must have
>been one copy at a certain time; the time quoted by my acquaintance was
>approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus.

This is, as far as I know, complete nonsense.  The codification of the bible
as we have it now came very much later.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Origins of the bible
Organization U of Maryland Dept of Computer Science Coll Pk MD 20742
Lines 14

Adda Wainwright writes

He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in
time which were syllableperfect  This therefore meant that there must have
been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintance was
approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus

This is as far as I know complete nonsense  The codification of the bible
as we have it now came very much later
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Iapetus/Saturn Eclipse
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 79
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from John Spencer (spencer@lowell.edu):

There will be two eclipses of Iapetus by Saturn and its
rings, in May and July.  Please spread the word!  Here's some
information about the events, and then a couple of messages from Jay
Goguen of JPL appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to
learn more about the thermal properties of Iapetus.  He might also have
some money available...

John Spencer, 1993/04/21

Iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of Saturn's rings and Saturn
itself on 1993/05/01-02 (18:27-13:43 UT) and again on 1993/07/20-21,
(21:16-09:38 UT).  Timing is as follows;

     1993 May 1-2

        A-ring ingress  18:27
               egress   19:30
        B-ring ingress  19:51
               egress   21:42
        C-ring egress   23:00
        Saturn ingress  23:59
               egress   10:02
        B-ring ingress  10:28
               egress   12:19
        A-ring ingress  12:40
               egress   13:43

     1993 July 20-21

        Saturn ingress  21:16
               egress   05:08
        A-ring ingress  05:13  (grazing)
               egress   09:38

Times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris,
and photometric observations are important for refining Iapetus'
orbit.  Because the Sun's size projected on the rings as seen from
Iapetus is 3100 km it's unlikely that we will learn anything new about
the rings themselves from the observations.  See Soma (1992), Astronomy
and Astrophysics 265, L21-L24 for more details.  Thanks to Andy Odell
of Northern Arizona University for bringing the events to my
attention.

THERMAL OBSERVATIONS?

Jay Goguen (jdg@scn5.Jpl.Nasa.Gov) writes:

  To me, the interesting thing to do would be thermal IR of the 20 July
  disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia,
  etc.  Unfortunately, the 21:30 UT of this event renders it inaccessible,
  except from Russia.  Even from Calar Alto, Saturn is rising through 3
  airmasses at 23:00 UT.  Do you know anyone in Russia or Ukraine with
  a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation that's looking for something
  to do?  I'd be willing to make a personal grant of >$100 for the data.

  Jay

and again:

  please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet
  disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths.  My impression would
  be that it's not an easy observation.  Iapetus will be faint and
  getting fainter in eclipse, so you'll need a big telescope that's a
  good IR telescope and reasonable 10 - 20 um instrumentation.  I don't
  think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are
  well placed for observation.  We need SOFIA for this one.  One
  possibility would be the IR telescope in India, but it's only a 1.2 m.

jay

     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject IapetusSaturn Eclipse
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 79
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from John Spencer spencerlowelledu

There will be two eclipses of Iapetus by Saturn and its
rings in May and July  Please spread the word  Heres some
information about the events and then a couple of messages from Jay
Goguen of JPL appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to
learn more about the thermal properties of Iapetus  He might also have
some money available

John Spencer 19930421

Iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of Saturns rings and Saturn
itself on 1993050102 18271343 UT and again on 1993072021
21160938 UT  Timing is as follows

     1993 May 12

        Aring ingress  1827
               egress   1930
        Bring ingress  1951
               egress   2142
        Cring egress   2300
        Saturn ingress  2359
               egress   1002
        Bring ingress  1028
               egress   1219
        Aring ingress  1240
               egress   1343

     1993 July 2021

        Saturn ingress  2116
               egress   0508
        Aring ingress  0513  grazing
               egress   0938

Times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris
and photometric observations are important for refining Iapetus
orbit  Because the Suns size projected on the rings as seen from
Iapetus is 3100 km its unlikely that we will learn anything new about
the rings themselves from the observations  See Soma 1992 Astronomy
and Astrophysics 265 L21L24 for more details  Thanks to Andy Odell
of Northern Arizona University for bringing the events to my
attention

THERMAL OBSERVATIONS

Jay Goguen jdgscn5JplNasaGov writes

  To me the interesting thing to do would be thermal IR of the 20 July
  disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia
  etc  Unfortunately the 2130 UT of this event renders it inaccessible
  except from Russia  Even from Calar Alto Saturn is rising through 3
  airmasses at 2300 UT  Do you know anyone in Russia or Ukraine with
  a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation thats looking for something
  to do  Id be willing to make a personal grant of 100 for the data

  Jay

and again

  please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet
  disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths  My impression would
  be that its not an easy observation  Iapetus will be faint and
  getting fainter in eclipse so youll need a big telescope thats a
  good IR telescope and reasonable 10  20 um instrumentation  I dont
  think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are
  well placed for observation  We need SOFIA for this one  One
  possibility would be the IR telescope in India but its only a 12 m

jay

     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 13

In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
#The better question  should be.
#Why not transfer  O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
#to support these kind of ongoing science missions.

Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything?

--
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
 USPS Mail:     Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
 Internet:      gsh7w@virginia.edu  
 UUCP:		...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w

after prepro  From gsh7wfermiclasVirginiaEDU Greg Hennessy
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization University of Virginia
Lines 13

In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The better question  should be
Why not transfer  OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions

Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything


Greg Hennessy University of Virginia
 USPS Mail     Astronomy Department Charlottesville VA 229032475 USA
 Internet      gsh7wvirginiaedu  
 UUCP		uunetvirginiagsh7w

preprocess doc  From: marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 42
NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu

snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>If Saddam believed in God, he would pray five times a
>day.
>
>Communism, on the other hand, actually committed genocide in the name of
>atheism, as Lenin and Stalin have said themselves.  These two were die
>hard atheist (Look! A pun!) and believed in atheism as an integral part
>of communism.

No, Bobby.  Stalin killed millions in the name of Socialism.  Atheism was a
characteristic of the Lenin-Stalin version of Socialism, nothing more.
Another characteristic of Lenin-Stalin Socialism was the centralization of
food distribution.  Would you therefore say that Stalin and Lenin killed
millions in the name of rationing bread?  Of course not.


>More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.

In earlier posts you stated that true (Muslim) believers were incapable of
evil.  I suppose if you believe that, you could reason that no one has ever
been killed in the name of religion.  What a perfect world you live in,
Bobby.  


>One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
>God a form.  God does not have a "face".

Bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in _The Good Atheist's 
Handbook_:

Law XXVI.A.3: Give that which you do not believe in a face.  

You must excuse us, Bobby.  When we argue against theism, we usually argue
against the Christian idea of God.  In the realm of Christianity, man was
created in God's image.  

-- 
|""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""|
| Kevin Marshall                         Sophomore, Computer Science |
| Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA  USA     marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu  |
|____________________________________________________________________|

after prepro  From marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept Blacksburg VA
Lines 42
NNTPPostingHost csugradcsvtedu

snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

If Saddam believed in God he would pray five times a
day

Communism on the other hand actually committed genocide in the name of
atheism as Lenin and Stalin have said themselves  These two were die
hard atheist Look A pun and believed in atheism as an integral part
of communism

No Bobby  Stalin killed millions in the name of Socialism  Atheism was a
characteristic of the LeninStalin version of Socialism nothing more
Another characteristic of LeninStalin Socialism was the centralization of
food distribution  Would you therefore say that Stalin and Lenin killed
millions in the name of rationing bread  Of course not


More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else

In earlier posts you stated that true Muslim believers were incapable of
evil  I suppose if you believe that you could reason that no one has ever
been killed in the name of religion  What a perfect world you live in
Bobby  


One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
God a form  God does not have a face

Bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in _The Good Atheists 
Handbook_

Law XXVIA3 Give that which you do not believe in a face  

You must excuse us Bobby  When we argue against theism we usually argue
against the Christian idea of God  In the realm of Christianity man was
created in Gods image  

 

 Kevin Marshall                         Sophomore Computer Science 
 Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA  USA     marshallcsugradcsvtedu  
____________________________________________________________________

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: A Remarkable Admission
Lines: 19

Jon Livesey writes:

>I'm certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different
>flavours of Christian, all loudly claiming to be the One True Christian.

Well, it's obvious that you *don't* attempt, otherwise you would be aware
that they *don't* all "loudly [claim] to be the One True Christian".

I've tried to avoid using the phrase "is/is not christian" because of these
ownership issues; instead, I've tried the phrase "Nicene christianity" in an
attempt to identify the vast majority of "christianity" which has roughly
similar viewpoints on the core theological issues.  The JWs do not fall
within this group and in fact espouse a position known as Arianism, which is
rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject A Remarkable Admission
Lines 19

Jon Livesey writes

Im certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different
flavours of Christian all loudly claiming to be the One True Christian

Well its obvious that you dont attempt otherwise you would be aware
that they dont all loudly [claim] to be the One True Christian

Ive tried to avoid using the phrase isis not christian because of these
ownership issues instead Ive tried the phrase Nicene christianity in an
attempt to identify the vast majority of christianity which has roughly
similar viewpoints on the core theological issues  The JWs do not fall
within this group and in fact espouse a position known as Arianism which is
rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: food

dillon comments that Space Food Sticks may have bad digestive properties.

I don't think so.  I think  most NASA food products were designed to
be low fiber 'zero-residue' products so as to minimize the difficulties
of waste disposal.  I'd doubt they'd deploy anything that caused whole sale
GI distress.  There aren't enough plastic baggies in the world for
a bad case of GI disease.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re space food sticks
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords food

dillon comments that Space Food Sticks may have bad digestive properties

I dont think so  I think  most NASA food products were designed to
be low fiber zeroresidue products so as to minimize the difficulties
of waste disposal  Id doubt theyd deploy anything that caused whole sale
GI distress  There arent enough plastic baggies in the world for
a bad case of GI disease

pat

preprocess doc  From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 22

In article <1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>
>Unfortunately H. Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
>first book published, and have his ideas see light.. Such a waste.
>
>
Piper lived in my town (Williamsport, PA) when he killed himself.  It
was in the early '60's.  He had had more than a few books published by
that time, but he was down on his luck financially.  Rumor was that he
was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food.  He viewed himself as
a resourceful man, and (IMO) decided to check out gracefully if he
couldn't support himself.  The worst part is that John Campbell, the
long-time editor of Astounding/Analog SF magazine had cut a check for
Piper's most recent story, and said check was in the mail.  If Campbell
had known Piper's straits, I'm sure he would have phoned to say hang on.
Campbell was like that.

I wish it had happened differently.  I always enjoyed Piper's stuff.

Doug Loss



after prepro  From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 22

In article 1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

Unfortunately H Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published and have his ideas see light Such a waste


Piper lived in my town Williamsport PA when he killed himself  It
was in the early 60s  He had had more than a few books published by
that time but he was down on his luck financially  Rumor was that he
was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food  He viewed himself as
a resourceful man and IMO decided to check out gracefully if he
couldnt support himself  The worst part is that John Campbell the
longtime editor of AstoundingAnalog SF magazine had cut a check for
Pipers most recent story and said check was in the mail  If Campbell
had known Pipers straits Im sure he would have phoned to say hang on
Campbell was like that

I wish it had happened differently  I always enjoyed Pipers stuff

Doug Loss



preprocess doc  From: mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Subject: LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 552



                      LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics

               Orthodox physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists 
          CLAIM to be looking for a "Unified Field Theory" in which all 
          of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single 
          set of laws or equations.  But they have been systematically 
          IGNORING or SUPPRESSING an excellent one for 30 years! 

               The late Physicist Dewey B. Larson's comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, which he 
          calls the "Reciprocal System", is built on two fundamental 
          postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of 
          space and time: 
    
               (1) "The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE 
          component, MOTION, existing in THREE dimensions, in DISCRETE 
          UNITS, and in two RECIPROCAL forms, SPACE and TIME." 
    
               (2) "The physical universe conforms to the relations of 
          ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics, its magnitudes are 
          ABSOLUTE, and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN." 
    
               From these two postulates, Larson developed a COMPLETE 
          Theoretical Universe, using various combinations of 
          translational, vibrational, rotational, and vibrational-
          rotational MOTIONS, the concepts of IN-ward and OUT-ward 
          SCALAR MOTIONS, and speeds in relation to the Speed of Light 
          (which Larson called "UNIT VELOCITY" and "THE NATURAL 
          DATUM"). 
      
               At each step in the development, Larson was able to 
          MATCH objects in his Theoretical Universe with objects in the 
          REAL physical universe, (photons, sub-atomic particles 
          [INCOMPLETE ATOMS], charges, atoms, molecules, globular star 
          clusters, galaxies, binary star systems, solar systems, white 
          dwarf stars, pulsars, quasars, ETC.), even objects NOT YET 
          DISCOVERED THEN (such as EXPLODING GALAXIES, and GAMMA-RAY 
          BURSTS). 
          
               And applying his Theory to his NEW model of the atom, 
          Larson was able to precisely and accurately CALCULATE inter-
          atomic distances in crystals and molecules, compressibility 
          and thermal expansion of solids, and other properties of 
          matter. 

               All of this is described in good detail, with-OUT fancy 
          complex mathematics, in his books. 
    


          BOOKS of Dewey B. Larson
          
               The following is a complete list of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson's books about his comprehensive GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe.  Some of the early 
          books are out of print now, but still available through 
          inter-library loan. 
    
               "The Structure of the Physical Universe" (1959) 
    
               "The Case AGAINST the Nuclear Atom" (1963)
    
               "Beyond Newton" (1964) 
    
               "New Light on Space and Time" (1965) 
    
               "Quasars and Pulsars" (1971) 
    
               "NOTHING BUT MOTION" (1979) 
                    [A $9.50 SUBSTITUTE for the $8.3 BILLION "Super 
                                                            Collider".] 
                    [The last four chapters EXPLAIN chemical bonding.]

               "The Neglected Facts of Science" (1982) 
     
               "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" (1984)
                    [FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL astrophysical
                                                            mysteries.] 
      
               "BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER" (1988)

               All but the last of these books were published by North 
          Pacific Publishers, P.O. Box 13255, Portland, OR  97213, and 
          should be available via inter-library loan if your local 
          university or public library doesn't have each of them. 

               Several of them, INCLUDING the last one, are available 
          from: The International Society of Unified Science (ISUS), 
          1680 E. Atkin Ave., Salt Lake City, Utah  84106.  This is the 
          organization that was started to promote Larson's Theory.  
          They have other related publications, including the quarterly 
          journal "RECIPROCITY". 

          

          Physicist Dewey B. Larson's Background
    
               Physicist Dewey B. Larson was a retired Engineer 
          (Chemical or Electrical).  He was about 91 years old when he 
          died in May 1989.  He had a Bachelor of Science Degree in 
          Engineering Science from Oregon State University.  He 
          developed his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe while trying to develop a way to COMPUTE 
          chemical properties based only on the elements used. 
    
               Larson's lack of a fancy "PH.D." degree might be one 
          reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him, but it is 
          NOT A VALID REASON.  Sometimes it takes a relative outsider 
          to CLEARLY SEE THE FOREST THROUGH THE TREES.  At the same 
          time, it is clear from his books that he also knew ORTHODOX 
          physics and astronomy as well as ANY physicist or astronomer, 
          well enough to point out all their CONTRADICTIONS, AD HOC 
          ASSUMPTIONS, PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE, IN-CONSISTENCIES, ETC.. 
     
               Larson did NOT have the funds, etc. to experimentally 
          test his Theory.  And it was NOT necessary for him to do so.  
          He simply compared the various parts of his Theory with OTHER 
          researchers' experimental and observational data.  And in 
          many cases, HIS explanation FIT BETTER. 
    
               A SELF-CONSISTENT Theory is MUCH MORE than the ORTHODOX 
          physicists and astronomers have!  They CLAIM to be looking 
          for a "unified field theory" that works, but have been 
          IGNORING one for over 30 years now! 
    
               "Modern physics" does NOT explain the physical universe 
          so well.  Some parts of some of Larson's books are FULL of 
          quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who 
          agree.  And remember that "epicycles", "crystal spheres", 
          "geocentricity", "flat earth theory", etc., ALSO once SEEMED 
          to explain it well, but were later proved CONCEPTUALLY WRONG. 
    
    
               Prof. Frank H. Meyer, Professor Emeritus of UW-Superior, 
          was/is a STRONG PROPONENT of Larson's Theory, and was (or 
          still is) President of Larson's organization, "THE 
          INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF UNIFIED SCIENCE", and Editor of 
          their quarterly Journal "RECIPROCITY".  He moved to 
          Minneapolis after retiring. 
    


          "Super Collider" BOONDOGGLE!
          
               I am AGAINST contruction of the "Superconducting Super 
          Collider", in Texas or anywhere else.  It would be a GROSS 
          WASTE of money, and contribute almost NOTHING of "scientific" 
          value. 
    
               Most physicists don't realize it, but, according to the 
          comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson, as described in his books, the strange GOOFY 
          particles ("mesons", "hyperons", ALLEGED "quarks", etc.) 
          which they are finding in EXISTING colliders (Fermi Lab, 
          Cern, etc.) are really just ATOMS of ANTI-MATTER, which are 
          CREATED by the high-energy colliding beams, and which quickly 
          disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible 
          with their environment. 
    
               A larger and more expensive collider will ONLY create a 
          few more elements of anti-matter that the physicists have not 
          seen there before, and the physicists will be EVEN MORE 
          CONFUSED THAN THEY ARE NOW! 
    
               Are a few more types of anti-matter atoms worth the $8.3 
          BILLION cost?!!  Don't we have much more important uses for 
          this WASTED money?! 
    
     
               Another thing to consider is that the primary proposed 
          location in Texas has a serious and growing problem with some 
          kind of "fire ants" eating the insulation off underground 
          cables.  How much POISONING of the ground and ground water 
          with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of 
          the "Supercollider"?! 
    
          
               Naming the "Super Collider" after Ronald Reagon, as 
          proposed, is TOTALLY ABSURD!  If it is built, it should be 
          named after a leading particle PHYSICIST. 
      


          LARSONIAN Anti-Matter
          
               In Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe, anti-matter is NOT a simple case of 
          opposite charges of the same types of particles.  It has more 
          to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the 
          photons of which they are made, in relation to the 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light, 
          which Larson calls "Unit Velocity" and the "Natural Datum". 
     
               In Larson's Theory, a positron is actually a particle of 
          MATTER, NOT anti-matter.  When a positron and electron meet, 
          the rotational vibrations (charges) and rotations of their 
          respective photons (of which they are made) neutralize each 
          other. 
      
               In Larson's Theory, the ANTI-MATTER half of the physical 
          universe has THREE dimensions of TIME, and ONLY ONE dimension 
          of space, and exists in a RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP to our 
          MATERIAL half. 
       


          LARSONIAN Relativity
          
               The perihelion point in the orbit of the planet Mercury 
          has been observed and precisely measured to ADVANCE at the 
          rate of 574 seconds of arc per century.  531 seconds of this 
          advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational 
          perturbations from the other planets (Venus, Earth, Jupiter, 
          etc.).  The remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to 
          help "prove" Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity". 
    
               But the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson achieved results 
          CLOSER to the 43 seconds than "General Relativity" can, by 
          INSTEAD using "SPECIAL Relativity".  In one or more of his 
          books, he applied the LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION on the HIGH 
          ORBITAL SPEED of Mercury. 
    
               Larson TOTALLY REJECTED "General Relativity" as another 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASY.  He also REJECTED most of "Special 
          Relativity", including the parts about "mass increases" near 
          the speed of light, and the use of the Lorentz Transform on 
          doppler shifts, (Those quasars with red-shifts greater than 
          1.000 REALLY ARE MOVING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT, 
          although most of that motion is away from us IN TIME.). 
     
               In Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe, there are THREE dimensions of time instead 
          of only one.  But two of those dimensions can NOT be measured 
          from our material half of the physical universe.  The one 
          dimension that we CAN measure is the CLOCK time.  At low 
          relative speeds, the values of the other two dimensions are 
          NEGLIGIBLE; but at high speeds, they become significant, and 
          the Lorentz Transformation must be used as a FUDGE FACTOR. 
          [Larson often used the term "COORDINATE TIME" when writing 
          about this.] 
    
     
               In regard to "mass increases", it has been PROVEN in 
          atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near 
          the speed of light.  But the formula for acceleration is 
          ACCELERATION = FORCE / MASS, (a = F/m).  Orthodox physicists 
          are IGNORING the THIRD FACTOR: FORCE.  In Larson's Theory, 
          mass STAYS CONSTANT and FORCE drops toward zero.  FORCE is 
          actually a MOTION, or COMBINATIONS of MOTIONS, or RELATIONS 
          BETWEEN MOTIONS, including INward and OUTward SCALAR MOTIONS.  
          The expansion of the universe, for example, is an OUTward 
          SCALAR motion inherent in the universe and NOT a result of 
          the so-called "Big Bang" (which is yet another MATHEMATICAL 
          FANTASY). 
    
                                    
          
          THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION

               I wish to recommend to EVERYONE the book "THE UNIVERSE 
          OF MOTION", by Dewey B. Larson, 1984, North Pacific 
          Publishers, (P.O. Box 13255, Portland, Oregon  97213), 456 
          pages, indexed, hardcover. 
    
               It contains the Astrophysical portions of a GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by that 
          author, an UNrecognized GENIUS, more than thirty years ago. 
    
               It contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL Astrophysical 
          mysteries, including the FORMATION of galaxies, binary and 
          multiple star systems, and solar systems, the TRUE ORIGIN of 
          the "3-degree" background radiation, cosmic rays, and gamma-
          ray bursts, and the TRUE NATURE of quasars, pulsars, white 
          dwarfs, exploding galaxies, etc.. 
    
               It contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are ALL 
          looking for, if they are ready to seriously consider it with 
          OPEN MINDS! 
    
               The following is an example of his Theory's success: 
          In his first book in 1959, "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL 
          UNIVERSE", Larson predicted the existence of EXPLODING 
          GALAXIES, several years BEFORE astronomers started finding 
          them.  They are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of Larson's 
          comprehensive Theory.  And when QUASARS were discovered, he 
          had an immediate related explanation for them also. 
    

 
          GAMMA-RAY BURSTS

               Astro-physicists and astronomers are still scratching 
          their heads about the mysterious GAMMA-RAY BURSTS.  They were 
          originally thought to originate from "neutron stars" in the 
          disc of our galaxy.  But the new Gamma Ray Telescope now in 
          Earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions 
          uniformly, and their source locations in space do NOT 
          correspond to any known objects, (except for a few cases of 
          directional coincidence). 
    
               Gamma-ray bursts are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of the 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson.  According to page 386 of 
          his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", published in 1984, the 
          gamma-ray bursts are coming from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the 
          ANTI-MATTER HALF of the physical universe, which Larson calls 
          the "Cosmic Sector".  Because of the relationship between the 
          anti-matter and material halves of the physical universe, and 
          the way they are connected together, the gamma-ray bursts can 
          pop into our material half anywhere in space, seemingly at 
          random.  (This is WHY the source locations of the bursts do 
          not correspond with known objects, and come from all 
          directions uniformly.) 
    
               I wonder how close to us in space a source location 
          would have to be for a gamma-ray burst to kill all or most 
          life on Earth!  There would be NO WAY to predict one, NOR to 
          stop it! 
    
               Perhaps some of the MASS EXTINCTIONS of the past, which 
          are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids, were 
          actually caused by nearby GAMMA-RAY BURSTS! 
    


          LARSONIAN Binary Star Formation
          
               About half of all the stars in the galaxy in the 
          vicinity of the sun are binary or double.  But orthodox 
          astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory 
          theory about how they form or why there are so many of them. 
    
               But binary star systems are actually a LIKELY 
          CONSEQUENCE of the comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of 
          the physical universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey 
          B. Larson. 
    
               I will try to summarize Larsons explanation, which is 
          detailed in Chapter 7 of his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" 
          and in some of his other books. 
    
               First of all, according to Larson, stars do NOT generate 
          energy by "fusion".  A small fraction comes from slow 
          gravitational collapse.  The rest results from the COMPLETE 
          ANNIHILATION of HEAVY elements (heavier than IRON).  Each 
          element has a DESTRUCTIVE TEMPERATURE LIMIT.  The heavier the 
          element is, the lower is this limit.  A star's internal 
          temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and 
          absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays, gradually 
          reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and 
          lighter elements. 
    
               When the internal temperature of the star reaches the 
          destructive temperature limit of IRON, there is a Type I 
          SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION!  This is because there is SO MUCH iron 
          present; and that is related to the structure of iron atoms 
          and the atom building process, which Larson explains in some 
          of his books [better than I can]. 
    
               When the star explodes, the lighter material on the 
          outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less 
          than the speed of light.  The heavier material in the center 
          portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to 
          the speed of light, because of the high temperature.  The 
          explosion pushes that material OVER the speed of light, and 
          it expands OUTWARD IN TIME, which is equivalent to INWARD IN 
          SPACE, and it often actually DISAPPEARS for a while. 
    
               Over long periods of time, both masses start to fall 
          back gravitationally.  The material that had been blown 
          outward in space now starts to form a RED GIANT star.  The 
          material that had been blown OUTWARD IN TIME starts to form a 
          WHITE DWARF star.  BOTH stars then start moving back toward 
          the "MAIN SEQUENCE" from opposite directions on the H-R 
          Diagram. 
    
               The chances of the two masses falling back into the 
          exact same location in space, making a single lone star 
          again, are near zero.  They will instead form a BINARY 
          system, orbiting each other. 
     
               According to Larson, a white dwarf star has an INVERSE 
          DENSITY GRADIENT (is densest at its SURFACE), because the 
          material at its center is most widely dispersed (blown 
          outward) in time.   This ELIMINATES the need to resort to 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES about "degenerate matter", "neutron 
          stars", "black holes", etc.. 
    


          LARSONIAN Solar System Formation

               If the mass of the heavy material at the center of the 
          exploding star is relatively SMALL, then, instead of a single 
          white dwarf star, there will be SEVERAL "mini" white dwarf 
          stars (revolving around the red giant star, but probably 
          still too far away in three-dimensional TIME to be affected 
          by its heat, etc.).  These will become PLANETS! 
      
               In Chapter 7 of THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION, Larson used all 
          this information, and other principles of his comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, to derive 
          his own version of Bode's Law. 
          


          "Black Hole" FANTASY!

               I heard that physicist Stephen W. Hawking recently 
          completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of TWO "black 
          holes" merging together into a SINGLE "black hole", and 
          concluded that the new "black hole" would have MORE MASS than 
          the sum of the two original "black holes". 
    
               Such a result should be recognized by EVERYone as a RED 
          FLAG, causing widespread DOUBT about the whole IDEA of "black 
          holes", etc.! 
    
               After reading Physicist Dewey B. Larson's books about 
          his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe, especially his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", it is 
          clear to me that "black holes" are NOTHING more than 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES!  The strange object at Cygnus X-1 is 
          just an unusually massive WHITE DWARF STAR, NOT the "black 
          hole" that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want 
          to "prove" their theory. 
    
    
               By the way, I do NOT understand why so much publicity is 
          being given to physicist Stephen Hawking.  The physicists and 
          astronomers seem to be acting as if Hawking's severe physical 
          problem somehow makes him "wiser".  It does NOT! 
    
               I wish the same attention had been given to Physicist 
          Dewey B. Larson while he was still alive.  Widespread 
          publicity and attention should NOW be given to Larson's 
          Theory, books, and organization (The International Society of 
          Unified Science). 
          
          
          
          ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION

               I heard of that concept many years ago, in connection 
          with UFO's and unorthodox inventors, but I never was able to 
          find out how or why they work, or how they are constructed. 
    
               I found a possible clue about why they might work on 
          pages 112-113 of the book "BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER", by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson, which describes part of 
          Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe.  I quote one paragraph: 
    
               "As indicated in the preceding chapter, the development 
          of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally 
          different concept of the nature of electrical resistance.  
          The electrons, we find, are derived from the environment.  It 
          was brought out in Volume I [Larson's book "NOTHING BUT 
          MOTION"] that there are physical processes in operation which 
          produce electrons in substantial quantities, and that, 
          although the motions that constitute these electrons are, in 
          many cases, absorbed by atomic structures, the opportunities 
          for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are 
          limited.  It follows that there is always a large excess of 
          free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the 
          universe, most of which are uncharged.  In this uncharged 
          state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension 
          space, because they are inherently rotating units of space, 
          and the relation of space to space is not motion.  In open 
          space, therefore, each uncharged electron remains permanently 
          in the same location with respect to the natural reference 
          system, in the manner of a photon.  In the context of the 
          stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron, 
          like the photon, is carried outward at the speed of light by 
          the progression of the natural reference system.  All 
          material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons 
          similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation.  
          Meanwhile there are other processes, to be discussed later, 
          whereby electrons are returned to the environment.  The 
          electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth 
          therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level." 
          
               Note that in Larson's Theory, UNcharged electrons are 
          also massLESS, and are basically photons of light of a 
          particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) spinning 
          around one axis at a particular rate (below the "unit" rate).  
          ("Unit velocity" is the speed of light, and there are 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light, 
          according to Larson's Theory.)  [I might have the "above" and 
          "below" labels mixed up.] 
    
               Larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass-
          LESS UN-charged electrons flying around at the speed of 
          light! 
    
               If this is true, then the ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION 
          fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these 
          electrons, or other particles in space, perhaps GIVING them a 
          charge (and mass) and shooting them toward the rear to 
          achieve propulsion. (In Larson's Theory, an electrical charge 
          is a one-dimensional rotational vibration of a particular 
          frequency (above the "unit" frequency) superimposed on the 
          rotation of the particle.) 
      
               The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to 
          confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is 
          generated in clouds. 



          SUPPRESSION of LARSONIAN Physics

               The comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson has 
          been available for more than 30 YEARS, published in 1959 in 
          his first book "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE". 
    
               It is TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC for Hawking, Wheeler, Sagan, 
          and the other SACRED PRIESTS of the RELIGION they call 
          "science" (or "physics", or "astronomy", etc.), as well as 
          the "scientific" literature and the "education" systems, to 
          TOTALLY IGNORE Larson's Theory has they have. 
    
               Larson's Theory has excellent explanations for many 
          things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers, such 
          as gamma-ray bursts and the nature of quasars. 
    
               Larson's Theory deserves to be HONESTLY and OPENLY 
          discussed in the physics, chemistry, and astronomy journals, 
          in the U.S. and elsewhere.  And at least the basic principles 
          of Larson's Theory should be included in all related courses 
          at UW-EC, UW-Madison, Cambridge, Cornell University, and 
          elsewhere, so that students are not kept in the dark about a 
          worthy alternative to the DOGMA they are being fed. 
    
          

               For more information, answers to your questions, etc., 
          please consult my CITED SOURCES (especially Larson's BOOKS). 



               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
          IMPORTANT partial summary is ENCOURAGED. 


                                       Robert E. McElwaine
                                       B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
          


after prepro  From mcelwrecnsvaxuwecedu
Subject LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 552



                      LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics

               Orthodox physicists astronomers and astrophysicists 
          CLAIM to be looking for a Unified Field Theory in which all 
          of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single 
          set of laws or equations  But they have been systematically 
          IGNORING or SUPPRESSING an excellent one for 30 years 

               The late Physicist Dewey B Larsons comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe which he 
          calls the Reciprocal System is built on two fundamental 
          postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of 
          space and time 
    
               1 The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE 
          component MOTION existing in THREE dimensions in DISCRETE 
          UNITS and in two RECIPROCAL forms SPACE and TIME 
    
               2 The physical universe conforms to the relations of 
          ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics its magnitudes are 
          ABSOLUTE and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN 
    
               From these two postulates Larson developed a COMPLETE 
          Theoretical Universe using various combinations of 
          translational vibrational rotational and vibrational
          rotational MOTIONS the concepts of INward and OUTward 
          SCALAR MOTIONS and speeds in relation to the Speed of Light 
          which Larson called UNIT VELOCITY and THE NATURAL 
          DATUM 
      
               At each step in the development Larson was able to 
          MATCH objects in his Theoretical Universe with objects in the 
          REAL physical universe photons subatomic particles 
          [INCOMPLETE ATOMS] charges atoms molecules globular star 
          clusters galaxies binary star systems solar systems white 
          dwarf stars pulsars quasars ETC even objects NOT YET 
          DISCOVERED THEN such as EXPLODING GALAXIES and GAMMARAY 
          BURSTS 
          
               And applying his Theory to his NEW model of the atom 
          Larson was able to precisely and accurately CALCULATE inter
          atomic distances in crystals and molecules compressibility 
          and thermal expansion of solids and other properties of 
          matter 

               All of this is described in good detail withOUT fancy 
          complex mathematics in his books 
    


          BOOKS of Dewey B Larson
          
               The following is a complete list of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B Larsons books about his comprehensive GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe  Some of the early 
          books are out of print now but still available through 
          interlibrary loan 
    
               The Structure of the Physical Universe 1959 
    
               The Case AGAINST the Nuclear Atom 1963
    
               Beyond Newton 1964 
    
               New Light on Space and Time 1965 
    
               Quasars and Pulsars 1971 
    
               NOTHING BUT MOTION 1979 
                    [A 950 SUBSTITUTE for the 83 BILLION Super 
                                                            Collider] 
                    [The last four chapters EXPLAIN chemical bonding]

               The Neglected Facts of Science 1982 
     
               THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION 1984
                    [FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL astrophysical
                                                            mysteries] 
      
               BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER 1988

               All but the last of these books were published by North 
          Pacific Publishers PO Box 13255 Portland OR  97213 and 
          should be available via interlibrary loan if your local 
          university or public library doesnt have each of them 

               Several of them INCLUDING the last one are available 
          from The International Society of Unified Science ISUS 
          1680 E Atkin Ave Salt Lake City Utah  84106  This is the 
          organization that was started to promote Larsons Theory  
          They have other related publications including the quarterly 
          journal RECIPROCITY 

          

          Physicist Dewey B Larsons Background
    
               Physicist Dewey B Larson was a retired Engineer 
          Chemical or Electrical  He was about 91 years old when he 
          died in May 1989  He had a Bachelor of Science Degree in 
          Engineering Science from Oregon State University  He 
          developed his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe while trying to develop a way to COMPUTE 
          chemical properties based only on the elements used 
    
               Larsons lack of a fancy PHD degree might be one 
          reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him but it is 
          NOT A VALID REASON  Sometimes it takes a relative outsider 
          to CLEARLY SEE THE FOREST THROUGH THE TREES  At the same 
          time it is clear from his books that he also knew ORTHODOX 
          physics and astronomy as well as ANY physicist or astronomer 
          well enough to point out all their CONTRADICTIONS AD HOC 
          ASSUMPTIONS PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE INCONSISTENCIES ETC 
     
               Larson did NOT have the funds etc to experimentally 
          test his Theory  And it was NOT necessary for him to do so  
          He simply compared the various parts of his Theory with OTHER 
          researchers experimental and observational data  And in 
          many cases HIS explanation FIT BETTER 
    
               A SELFCONSISTENT Theory is MUCH MORE than the ORTHODOX 
          physicists and astronomers have  They CLAIM to be looking 
          for a unified field theory that works but have been 
          IGNORING one for over 30 years now 
    
               Modern physics does NOT explain the physical universe 
          so well  Some parts of some of Larsons books are FULL of 
          quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who 
          agree  And remember that epicycles crystal spheres 
          geocentricity flat earth theory etc ALSO once SEEMED 
          to explain it well but were later proved CONCEPTUALLY WRONG 
    
    
               Prof Frank H Meyer Professor Emeritus of UWSuperior 
          wasis a STRONG PROPONENT of Larsons Theory and was or 
          still is President of Larsons organization THE 
          INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF UNIFIED SCIENCE and Editor of 
          their quarterly Journal RECIPROCITY  He moved to 
          Minneapolis after retiring 
    


          Super Collider BOONDOGGLE
          
               I am AGAINST contruction of the Superconducting Super 
          Collider in Texas or anywhere else  It would be a GROSS 
          WASTE of money and contribute almost NOTHING of scientific 
          value 
    
               Most physicists dont realize it but according to the 
          comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the late Physicist 
          Dewey B Larson as described in his books the strange GOOFY 
          particles mesons hyperons ALLEGED quarks etc 
          which they are finding in EXISTING colliders Fermi Lab 
          Cern etc are really just ATOMS of ANTIMATTER which are 
          CREATED by the highenergy colliding beams and which quickly 
          disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible 
          with their environment 
    
               A larger and more expensive collider will ONLY create a 
          few more elements of antimatter that the physicists have not 
          seen there before and the physicists will be EVEN MORE 
          CONFUSED THAN THEY ARE NOW 
    
               Are a few more types of antimatter atoms worth the 83 
          BILLION cost  Dont we have much more important uses for 
          this WASTED money 
    
     
               Another thing to consider is that the primary proposed 
          location in Texas has a serious and growing problem with some 
          kind of fire ants eating the insulation off underground 
          cables  How much POISONING of the ground and ground water 
          with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of 
          the Supercollider 
    
          
               Naming the Super Collider after Ronald Reagon as 
          proposed is TOTALLY ABSURD  If it is built it should be 
          named after a leading particle PHYSICIST 
      


          LARSONIAN AntiMatter
          
               In Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe antimatter is NOT a simple case of 
          opposite charges of the same types of particles  It has more 
          to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the 
          photons of which they are made in relation to the 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light 
          which Larson calls Unit Velocity and the Natural Datum 
     
               In Larsons Theory a positron is actually a particle of 
          MATTER NOT antimatter  When a positron and electron meet 
          the rotational vibrations charges and rotations of their 
          respective photons of which they are made neutralize each 
          other 
      
               In Larsons Theory the ANTIMATTER half of the physical 
          universe has THREE dimensions of TIME and ONLY ONE dimension 
          of space and exists in a RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP to our 
          MATERIAL half 
       


          LARSONIAN Relativity
          
               The perihelion point in the orbit of the planet Mercury 
          has been observed and precisely measured to ADVANCE at the 
          rate of 574 seconds of arc per century  531 seconds of this 
          advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational 
          perturbations from the other planets Venus Earth Jupiter 
          etc  The remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to 
          help prove Einsteins General Theory of Relativity 
    
               But the late Physicist Dewey B Larson achieved results 
          CLOSER to the 43 seconds than General Relativity can by 
          INSTEAD using SPECIAL Relativity  In one or more of his 
          books he applied the LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION on the HIGH 
          ORBITAL SPEED of Mercury 
    
               Larson TOTALLY REJECTED General Relativity as another 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASY  He also REJECTED most of Special 
          Relativity including the parts about mass increases near 
          the speed of light and the use of the Lorentz Transform on 
          doppler shifts Those quasars with redshifts greater than 
          1000 REALLY ARE MOVING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT 
          although most of that motion is away from us IN TIME 
     
               In Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the 
          physical universe there are THREE dimensions of time instead 
          of only one  But two of those dimensions can NOT be measured 
          from our material half of the physical universe  The one 
          dimension that we CAN measure is the CLOCK time  At low 
          relative speeds the values of the other two dimensions are 
          NEGLIGIBLE but at high speeds they become significant and 
          the Lorentz Transformation must be used as a FUDGE FACTOR 
          [Larson often used the term COORDINATE TIME when writing 
          about this] 
    
     
               In regard to mass increases it has been PROVEN in 
          atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near 
          the speed of light  But the formula for acceleration is 
          ACCELERATION  FORCE  MASS a  Fm  Orthodox physicists 
          are IGNORING the THIRD FACTOR FORCE  In Larsons Theory 
          mass STAYS CONSTANT and FORCE drops toward zero  FORCE is 
          actually a MOTION or COMBINATIONS of MOTIONS or RELATIONS 
          BETWEEN MOTIONS including INward and OUTward SCALAR MOTIONS  
          The expansion of the universe for example is an OUTward 
          SCALAR motion inherent in the universe and NOT a result of 
          the socalled Big Bang which is yet another MATHEMATICAL 
          FANTASY 
    
                                    
          
          THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION

               I wish to recommend to EVERYONE the book THE UNIVERSE 
          OF MOTION by Dewey B Larson 1984 North Pacific 
          Publishers PO Box 13255 Portland Oregon  97213 456 
          pages indexed hardcover 
    
               It contains the Astrophysical portions of a GENERAL 
          UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by that 
          author an UNrecognized GENIUS more than thirty years ago 
    
               It contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL Astrophysical 
          mysteries including the FORMATION of galaxies binary and 
          multiple star systems and solar systems the TRUE ORIGIN of 
          the 3degree background radiation cosmic rays and gamma
          ray bursts and the TRUE NATURE of quasars pulsars white 
          dwarfs exploding galaxies etc 
    
               It contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are ALL 
          looking for if they are ready to seriously consider it with 
          OPEN MINDS 
    
               The following is an example of his Theorys success 
          In his first book in 1959 THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL 
          UNIVERSE Larson predicted the existence of EXPLODING 
          GALAXIES several years BEFORE astronomers started finding 
          them  They are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of Larsons 
          comprehensive Theory  And when QUASARS were discovered he 
          had an immediate related explanation for them also 
    

 
          GAMMARAY BURSTS

               Astrophysicists and astronomers are still scratching 
          their heads about the mysterious GAMMARAY BURSTS  They were 
          originally thought to originate from neutron stars in the 
          disc of our galaxy  But the new Gamma Ray Telescope now in 
          Earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions 
          uniformly and their source locations in space do NOT 
          correspond to any known objects except for a few cases of 
          directional coincidence 
    
               Gammaray bursts are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of the 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B Larson  According to page 386 of 
          his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION published in 1984 the 
          gammaray bursts are coming from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the 
          ANTIMATTER HALF of the physical universe which Larson calls 
          the Cosmic Sector  Because of the relationship between the 
          antimatter and material halves of the physical universe and 
          the way they are connected together the gammaray bursts can 
          pop into our material half anywhere in space seemingly at 
          random  This is WHY the source locations of the bursts do 
          not correspond with known objects and come from all 
          directions uniformly 
    
               I wonder how close to us in space a source location 
          would have to be for a gammaray burst to kill all or most 
          life on Earth  There would be NO WAY to predict one NOR to 
          stop it 
    
               Perhaps some of the MASS EXTINCTIONS of the past which 
          are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids were 
          actually caused by nearby GAMMARAY BURSTS 
    


          LARSONIAN Binary Star Formation
          
               About half of all the stars in the galaxy in the 
          vicinity of the sun are binary or double  But orthodox 
          astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory 
          theory about how they form or why there are so many of them 
    
               But binary star systems are actually a LIKELY 
          CONSEQUENCE of the comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of 
          the physical universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey 
          B Larson 
    
               I will try to summarize Larsons explanation which is 
          detailed in Chapter 7 of his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION 
          and in some of his other books 
    
               First of all according to Larson stars do NOT generate 
          energy by fusion  A small fraction comes from slow 
          gravitational collapse  The rest results from the COMPLETE 
          ANNIHILATION of HEAVY elements heavier than IRON  Each 
          element has a DESTRUCTIVE TEMPERATURE LIMIT  The heavier the 
          element is the lower is this limit  A stars internal 
          temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and 
          absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays gradually 
          reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and 
          lighter elements 
    
               When the internal temperature of the star reaches the 
          destructive temperature limit of IRON there is a Type I 
          SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION  This is because there is SO MUCH iron 
          present and that is related to the structure of iron atoms 
          and the atom building process which Larson explains in some 
          of his books [better than I can] 
    
               When the star explodes the lighter material on the 
          outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less 
          than the speed of light  The heavier material in the center 
          portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to 
          the speed of light because of the high temperature  The 
          explosion pushes that material OVER the speed of light and 
          it expands OUTWARD IN TIME which is equivalent to INWARD IN 
          SPACE and it often actually DISAPPEARS for a while 
    
               Over long periods of time both masses start to fall 
          back gravitationally  The material that had been blown 
          outward in space now starts to form a RED GIANT star  The 
          material that had been blown OUTWARD IN TIME starts to form a 
          WHITE DWARF star  BOTH stars then start moving back toward 
          the MAIN SEQUENCE from opposite directions on the HR 
          Diagram 
    
               The chances of the two masses falling back into the 
          exact same location in space making a single lone star 
          again are near zero  They will instead form a BINARY 
          system orbiting each other 
     
               According to Larson a white dwarf star has an INVERSE 
          DENSITY GRADIENT is densest at its SURFACE because the 
          material at its center is most widely dispersed blown 
          outward in time   This ELIMINATES the need to resort to 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES about degenerate matter neutron 
          stars black holes etc 
    


          LARSONIAN Solar System Formation

               If the mass of the heavy material at the center of the 
          exploding star is relatively SMALL then instead of a single 
          white dwarf star there will be SEVERAL mini white dwarf 
          stars revolving around the red giant star but probably 
          still too far away in threedimensional TIME to be affected 
          by its heat etc  These will become PLANETS 
      
               In Chapter 7 of THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION Larson used all 
          this information and other principles of his comprehensive 
          GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe to derive 
          his own version of Bodes Law 
          


          Black Hole FANTASY

               I heard that physicist Stephen W Hawking recently 
          completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of TWO black 
          holes merging together into a SINGLE black hole and 
          concluded that the new black hole would have MORE MASS than 
          the sum of the two original black holes 
    
               Such a result should be recognized by EVERYone as a RED 
          FLAG causing widespread DOUBT about the whole IDEA of black 
          holes etc 
    
               After reading Physicist Dewey B Larsons books about 
          his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe especially his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION it is 
          clear to me that black holes are NOTHING more than 
          MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES  The strange object at Cygnus X1 is 
          just an unusually massive WHITE DWARF STAR NOT the black 
          hole that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want 
          to prove their theory 
    
    
               By the way I do NOT understand why so much publicity is 
          being given to physicist Stephen Hawking  The physicists and 
          astronomers seem to be acting as if Hawkings severe physical 
          problem somehow makes him wiser  It does NOT 
    
               I wish the same attention had been given to Physicist 
          Dewey B Larson while he was still alive  Widespread 
          publicity and attention should NOW be given to Larsons 
          Theory books and organization The International Society of 
          Unified Science 
          
          
          
          ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION

               I heard of that concept many years ago in connection 
          with UFOs and unorthodox inventors but I never was able to 
          find out how or why they work or how they are constructed 
    
               I found a possible clue about why they might work on 
          pages 112113 of the book BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER by 
          the late Physicist Dewey B Larson which describes part of 
          Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe  I quote one paragraph 
    
               As indicated in the preceding chapter the development 
          of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally 
          different concept of the nature of electrical resistance  
          The electrons we find are derived from the environment  It 
          was brought out in Volume I [Larsons book NOTHING BUT 
          MOTION] that there are physical processes in operation which 
          produce electrons in substantial quantities and that 
          although the motions that constitute these electrons are in 
          many cases absorbed by atomic structures the opportunities 
          for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are 
          limited  It follows that there is always a large excess of 
          free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the 
          universe most of which are uncharged  In this uncharged 
          state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension 
          space because they are inherently rotating units of space 
          and the relation of space to space is not motion  In open 
          space therefore each uncharged electron remains permanently 
          in the same location with respect to the natural reference 
          system in the manner of a photon  In the context of the 
          stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron 
          like the photon is carried outward at the speed of light by 
          the progression of the natural reference system  All 
          material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons 
          similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation  
          Meanwhile there are other processes to be discussed later 
          whereby electrons are returned to the environment  The 
          electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth 
          therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level 
          
               Note that in Larsons Theory UNcharged electrons are 
          also massLESS and are basically photons of light of a 
          particular frequency above the unit frequency spinning 
          around one axis at a particular rate below the unit rate  
          Unit velocity is the speed of light and there are 
          vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light 
          according to Larsons Theory  [I might have the above and 
          below labels mixed up] 
    
               Larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass
          LESS UNcharged electrons flying around at the speed of 
          light 
    
               If this is true then the ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION 
          fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these 
          electrons or other particles in space perhaps GIVING them a 
          charge and mass and shooting them toward the rear to 
          achieve propulsion In Larsons Theory an electrical charge 
          is a onedimensional rotational vibration of a particular 
          frequency above the unit frequency superimposed on the 
          rotation of the particle 
      
               The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to 
          confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is 
          generated in clouds 



          SUPPRESSION of LARSONIAN Physics

               The comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical 
          universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey B Larson has 
          been available for more than 30 YEARS published in 1959 in 
          his first book THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE 
    
               It is TOTALLY UNSCIENTIFIC for Hawking Wheeler Sagan 
          and the other SACRED PRIESTS of the RELIGION they call 
          science or physics or astronomy etc as well as 
          the scientific literature and the education systems to 
          TOTALLY IGNORE Larsons Theory has they have 
    
               Larsons Theory has excellent explanations for many 
          things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers such 
          as gammaray bursts and the nature of quasars 
    
               Larsons Theory deserves to be HONESTLY and OPENLY 
          discussed in the physics chemistry and astronomy journals 
          in the US and elsewhere  And at least the basic principles 
          of Larsons Theory should be included in all related courses 
          at UWEC UWMadison Cambridge Cornell University and 
          elsewhere so that students are not kept in the dark about a 
          worthy alternative to the DOGMA they are being fed 
    
          

               For more information answers to your questions etc 
          please consult my CITED SOURCES especially Larsons BOOKS 



               UNaltered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this 
          IMPORTANT partial summary is ENCOURAGED 


                                       Robert E McElwaine
                                       BS Physics and Astronomy UWEC
          


preprocess doc  From: mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: MDSSC
Lines: 60

jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus) writes:
>>cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
>>> The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit
>>> of Saint Louis venture to his financial backers. But I strongly suspect
>>> that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more
>>> was at stake than $25,000. Could it work with the moon? Who are the
>>> far-sighted financial backers of today?
 
>>  The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
>>and-civilized areas are obvious.  Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
>>The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
>>transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.
> Lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties.
 
  Of course; sorry for the misunderstanding.  I was referring to the fact
that far more aeronautical development took place in the '30's.  For much
of the '20's, the super-abundance of Jennies and OX-5 engines held down the
industry.  By 1926, many of the obsolete WWI aircraft had been retired
and Whirlwind had their power/weight ratio and reliability up to the point
where long-distance flights became practical.  It's important to note that
the Atlantic was flown not once but THREE times in 1927:  Lindbergh,
Chamberlin and Levine, and Byrd's _America_.  "When it's time to railroad,
you railroad."

>>It didn't require gov't to fund these as long as something was known about
>>the potential for profit at the destination.  In practice, some were gov't
>>funded, some were private.
>Could you give examples of privately funded ones?

  Not off the top of my head; I'll have to dig out my reference books again.
However, I will say that the most common arrangement in Prince Henry the
Navigator's Portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and
merchants to put up the rest.  They profits from the voyage would then be
shared.

>>But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
>>of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
>A person who puts up $X billion for a moon base is much more likely to do
>it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money
>off the deal.

  The problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a
Moon Base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations
can even consider putting up.  The Kremer Prizes (human powered aircraft),
Orteig's prize, Lord Northcliffe's prize for crossing the Atlantic (won in
1919 by Alcock and Brown) were MUCH smaller.  The technologies required were
within the reach of individual inventors, and the prize amounts were well
within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals.  I think that only
a gov't could afford to set up a $1B+ prize for any purpose whatsoever.
  Note that Burt Rutan suggested that NASP could be built most cheaply by
taking out an ad in AvWeek stating that the first company to build a plane
that could take off and fly the profile would be handed $3B, no questions
asked.

-- 
 Keith Mancus    <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov>                           |
 N5WVR           <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>                        |
 "Black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall,          |
  when your back's against the wall...." -Leslie Fish                  |

after prepro  From mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization MDSSC
Lines 60

jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus writes
cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
 The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit
 of Saint Louis venture to his financial backers But I strongly suspect
 that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more
 was at stake than 25000 Could it work with the moon Who are the
 farsighted financial backers of today
 
  The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious  Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery
 Lindberghs flight took place in 27 not the thirties
 
  Of course sorry for the misunderstanding  I was referring to the fact
that far more aeronautical development took place in the 30s  For much
of the 20s the superabundance of Jennies and OX5 engines held down the
industry  By 1926 many of the obsolete WWI aircraft had been retired
and Whirlwind had their powerweight ratio and reliability up to the point
where longdistance flights became practical  Its important to note that
the Atlantic was flown not once but THREE times in 1927  Lindbergh
Chamberlin and Levine and Byrds _America_  When its time to railroad
you railroad

It didnt require govt to fund these as long as something was known about
the potential for profit at the destination  In practice some were govt
funded some were private
Could you give examples of privately funded ones

  Not off the top of my head Ill have to dig out my reference books again
However I will say that the most common arrangement in Prince Henry the
Navigators Portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and
merchants to put up the rest  They profits from the voyage would then be
shared

But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff
A person who puts up X billion for a moon base is much more likely to do
it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money
off the deal

  The problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a
Moon Base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations
can even consider putting up  The Kremer Prizes human powered aircraft
Orteigs prize Lord Northcliffes prize for crossing the Atlantic won in
1919 by Alcock and Brown were MUCH smaller  The technologies required were
within the reach of individual inventors and the prize amounts were well
within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals  I think that only
a govt could afford to set up a 1B prize for any purpose whatsoever
  Note that Burt Rutan suggested that NASP could be built most cheaply by
taking out an ad in AvWeek stating that the first company to build a plane
that could take off and fly the profile would be handed 3B no questions
asked

 
 Keith Mancus                               
 N5WVR                                   
 Black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall          
  when your backs against the wall Leslie Fish                  

preprocess doc   zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 28

In article <1pi8h5INNq40@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> (reference line trimmed)
|> 
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> [...]
|> 
|> >There is a good deal more confusion here.   You started off with the 
|> >assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
|> >here, you finished up with a recursive definition.   Murder is 
|> >"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
|> >requires an appeal to morality.
|> 
|> Yes.
|> 
|> >Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little.   Now you are
|> >asking what is the "goal"?   What do you mean by "goal?".   Are you
|> >suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
|> >and we form our morals to achieve it?
|> 
|> Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
|> propogation of the species. 


I got just this far.   What do you mean by "goal"?    I hope you
don't mean to imply that evolution has a conscious "goal".

jon.

after prepro   zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 reference line trimmed
 
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 []
 
 There is a good deal more confusion here   You started off with the 
 assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
 here you finished up with a recursive definition   Murder is 
 objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
 requires an appeal to morality
 
 Yes
 
 Now you have switch targets a little but only a little   Now you are
 asking what is the goal   What do you mean by goal   Are you
 suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
 and we form our morals to achieve it
 
 Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
 propogation of the species 


I got just this far   What do you mean by goal    I hope you
dont mean to imply that evolution has a conscious goal

jon

preprocess doc  Subject: Space FAQ 02/15 - Network Resources
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:54:26 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <net_730956391@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 241

Archive-name: space/net
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:15 $

NETWORK RESOURCES

OVERVIEW

    You may be reading this document on any one of an amazing variety of
    computers, so much of the material below may not apply to you. In
    general, however, systems connected to 'the net' fall in one of three
    categories: Internet, Usenet, or BITNET. Electronic mail may be sent
    between these networks, and other resources available on one of these
    networks are sometimes accessible from other networks by email sent to
    special 'servers'.

    The space and astronomy discussion groups actually are composed of
    several mechanisms with (mostly) transparent connections between them.

    One mechanism is the mailing list, in which mail is sent to a central
    distribution point which relays it to all recipients of the list. In
    addition to the general lists for space (called SPACE Digest for
    Internet users, and SPACE on BITNET), there are a number of more
    specialized mailing lists described below.

    A second mechanism is Usenet 'netnews'. This is somewhat like a bulletin
    board operating on each system which is a part of the net. Netnews
    separates contributions into hundreds of different categories based on a
    'group name'. The groups dealing most closely with space topics are
    called 'sci.space.news', 'sci.space', 'sci.space.shuttle', 'sci.astro',
    and 'talk.politics.space'. Contributors 'post' submissions (called
    'articles' in netnews terminology) on their local machine, which sends
    it to other nearby machines. Similarly, articles sent from nearby
    machines are stored locally and may be forwarded to other systems, so
    that an article is posted locally and eventually reaches all the Usenet
    sites interested in receiving the news group to which the article was
    posted.

    Gateway machines redirect the Usenet sci.space group into Internet and
    BITNET mailing lists and vice versa; the other Usenet groups are not
    accessible as mailing lists. If you can receive netnews, its more
    flexible interface and access to a wider range of material usually make
    it the preferred option.

MAILING LISTS

    SPACE Digest is the main Internet list, and is now being run by the
    International Space University (in only its second change of management
    in over a decade). Email space-request@isu.isunet.edu (message body
    should be in the format 'subscribe space John Public') to join. Note
    that the moderated SPACE Magazine list is defunct at present for lack of
    a moderator. Old copies of SPACE Digest since its inception in 1981 are
    available by anonymous FTP. Retrieve
	julius.cs.qub.ac.uk:pub/SpaceDigestArchive/README
    for further details.

    Elements is a moderated list for fast distribution of Space Shuttle
    Keplerian Elements before and during Shuttle flights. NASA two line
    elements are sent out on the list from Dr. Kelso, JSC, and other sources
    as they are released. Email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join.

    GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
    System and other satellite navigation positioning systems. Email to
    gps-request@esseye.si.com to join.

    Space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in
    space-related companies. Email Vincent Cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join.

    Space-tech is a list for more technical discussion of space topics;
    discussion has included esoteric propulsion technologies, asteroid
    capture, starflight, orbital debris removal, etc. Email to
    space-tech-request@cs.cmu.edu to join. Archives of old digests and
    selected excerpts are available by anonymous FTP from
    gs80.sp.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.205.90) in /usr/anon/public/space-tech,
    or by email to space-tech-request if you don't have FTP access.

    SEDS-L is a BITNET list for members of Students for the Exploration and
    Development of Space and other interested parties. Email
    LISTSERV@TAMVM1.BITNET with a message saying "SUBSCRIBE SEDS-L your
    name". Email saying "INDEX SEDS-L" to list the archive contents.

    SEDSNEWS is a BITNET list for news items, press releases, shuttle status
    reports, and the like. This duplicates material which is also found in
    Space Digest, sci.space, sci.space.shuttle, and sci.astro. Email
    LISTSERV@TAMVM1.BITNET saying "SUBSCRIBE SEDSNEWS your name" to join.
    Email saying "INDEX SEDSNEWS" to list the archive contents.

    Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) runs a mailing list which
    carries the contents of the sci.space.news Usenet group. Email him
    to join the list.

    As a general note, please mail to the *request* address to get off a
    mailing list. SPACE Digest, for example, relays many inappropriate
    'please remove me from this list' messages which are sent to the list
    address rather than the request address.

PERIODICALLY UPDATED INFORMATION

    In addition to this FAQ list, a broad variety of topical information is
    posted to the net (unless otherwise noted, in the new group
    sci.space.news created for this purpose). Please remember that the
    individuals posting this information are performing a service for all
    net readers, and don't take up their time with frivolous requests.

    ACRONYMS
	Garrett Wollman (wollman@UVM.EDU) posts an acronym list around the
	first of each month.

    ASTRO-FTP LIST
	Veikko Makela (veikko.makela@helsinki.fi) posts a monthly list of
	anonymous FTP servers containing astronomy and space related
	material to sci.space and sci.astro.

    AVIATION WEEK
	Henry Spencer (henry@zoo.toronto.edu) posts summaries of
	space-related stories in the weekly _Aviation Week and Space
	Technology_.

    BUYING TELESCOPES
	Ronnie Kon (ronnie@cisco.com) posts a guide to buying telescopes to
	sci.astro.

    ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASA
	Don Barry (don@chara.gsu.edu) posts the monthly Electronic Journal
	of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic to sci.astro.

    FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
	Swaraj Jeyasingh (sjeyasin@axion.bt.co.uk) posts summaries of
	space-related news from _Flight International_. This focuses more on
	non-US space activities than Aviation Week.

    LARGE ASTRONOMICAL PROJECTS
	Robert Bunge (rbunge@access.digex.com) posts a list describing many
	"Large Telescope Projects Either Being Considered or in the Works"
	to sci.astro.

    NASA HEADLINE NEWS & SHUTTLE REPORTS
	Peter Yee (yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov) posts a variety of NASA material,
	including NASA Headline News (with the schedule for NASA SELECT),
	shuttle payload briefings and flight manifests, and KSC shuttle
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    NASA UPDATES
	Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) posts frequent updates from
	JPL, Ames, and other centers on the Ulysses, Gailileo, Pioneer,
	Magellan, Landsat, and other missions.

    ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
	TS Kelso (tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil) posts orbital elements from
	NASA Prediction Bulletins.

	Mike Rose (mrose@stsci.edu) posts orbital elements for the Hubble
	Space Telescope to sci.astro.

	Jost Jahn (j.jahn@abbs.hanse.de) posts ephemerides for asteroids,
	comets, conjunctions, and encounters to sci.astro.

    SATELLITE LAUNCHES
	Richard Langley (lang@unb.ca) posts SPACEWARN Bulletin, which
	describes recent launch/orbital decay information and satellites
	which are useful for scientific activities. Recent bulletins are
	available by anonymous FTP from nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov in
	ANON_DIR:[000000.ACTIVE.SPX].

    SHUTTLE MANIFEST
	Ken Hollis (gandalf@pro-electric.cts.com) posts a compressed version
	of the Space Shuttle launch manifest to sci.space.shuttle. This
	includes dates, times, payloads, and information on how to see
	launches and landings.

    SOLAR ACTIVITY
	Cary Oler (oler@hg.uleth.ca) posts Solar Terrestrial reports
	(describing solar activity and its effect on the Earth) to
	sci.space. The report is issued in part from data released by the
	Space Enviroment Services Center, Boulder Colorado. The intro
	document needed to understand these reports is available by
	anonymous FTP from solar.stanford.edu (36.10.0.4) in
	pub/understanding_solar_terrestrial_reports. nic.funet.fi
	(128.214.6.100) also has this document in
	/pub/misc/rec.radio.shortwave/solarreports and is an archive site
	for the reports (please note this site is in Europe, and the
	connection to the US is only 56KB). A new primary archive site,
	xi.uleth.ca (142.66.3.29), has recently been established and will be
	actively supported.

    SOVIET SPACE ACTIVITIES
	Glenn Chapman (glennc@cs.sfu.ca) posts summaries of Soviet space
	activities.

    SPACE ACTIVIST NEWSLETTER
	Allen Sherzer (aws@iti.org) posts a newsletter, "One Small Step for
	a Space Activist," to talk.politics.space. It describes current
	legislative activity affecting NASA and commercial space activities.

    SPACE EVENTS CALENDAR
	Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) posts a calendar including
	anniversaries, conferences, launch dates, meteor showers and
	eclipses, and other space-related events.

    SPACE NEWS
	John Magliacane (kd2bd@ka2qhd.UUCP) posts "SpaceNews" (covering
	AMSATs, NOAA and other weather satellites, and other ham
	information) to rec.radio.amateur.misc and sci.space.

    SPACE REPORT
	Jonathan McDowell (mcdowell@cfa.harvard.edu) posts "Jonathan's Space
	Report" covering launches, landings, reentries, status reports,
	satellite activities, etc.

    TOWARD 2001
	Bev Freed (freed@nss.fidonet.org) posts "Toward 2001", a weekly
	global news summary reprinted from _Space Calendar_ magazine.


WARNING ABOUT NON-PUBLIC NETWORKS

    (Included at the suggestion of Eugene Miya, who wrote the item)

    NASA has an internal system of unclassified electronic mail and bulletin
    boards. This system is not open for public use. Specifically, NASA
    personnel and procurement operations are regarded with some sensitivity.
    Contractors must renegotiate their contracts. The Fair and Open
    Procurement Act does not look kindly to those having inside information.
    Contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can
    expect severe penalities. Unauthorized access attempts may subject you
    to a fine and/or imprisonment in accordance with Title 18, USC, Section
    1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
    NASA personnel.

    Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
    have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
    detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
    Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write

	NASA
	Inspector General
	P.O. Box 23089
	L'enfant Plaza Station
	Washington DC 20024

NEXT: FAQ #3/15 - Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.

after prepro  Subject Space FAQ 0215  Network Resources
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195426 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 241

Archivename spacenet
Lastmodified Date 930401 143915 

NETWORK RESOURCES

OVERVIEW

    You may be reading this document on any one of an amazing variety of
    computers so much of the material below may not apply to you In
    general however systems connected to the net fall in one of three
    categories Internet Usenet or BITNET Electronic mail may be sent
    between these networks and other resources available on one of these
    networks are sometimes accessible from other networks by email sent to
    special servers

    The space and astronomy discussion groups actually are composed of
    several mechanisms with mostly transparent connections between them

    One mechanism is the mailing list in which mail is sent to a central
    distribution point which relays it to all recipients of the list In
    addition to the general lists for space called SPACE Digest for
    Internet users and SPACE on BITNET there are a number of more
    specialized mailing lists described below

    A second mechanism is Usenet netnews This is somewhat like a bulletin
    board operating on each system which is a part of the net Netnews
    separates contributions into hundreds of different categories based on a
    group name The groups dealing most closely with space topics are
    called scispacenews scispace scispaceshuttle sciastro
    and talkpoliticsspace Contributors post submissions called
    articles in netnews terminology on their local machine which sends
    it to other nearby machines Similarly articles sent from nearby
    machines are stored locally and may be forwarded to other systems so
    that an article is posted locally and eventually reaches all the Usenet
    sites interested in receiving the news group to which the article was
    posted

    Gateway machines redirect the Usenet scispace group into Internet and
    BITNET mailing lists and vice versa the other Usenet groups are not
    accessible as mailing lists If you can receive netnews its more
    flexible interface and access to a wider range of material usually make
    it the preferred option

MAILING LISTS

    SPACE Digest is the main Internet list and is now being run by the
    International Space University in only its second change of management
    in over a decade Email spacerequestisuisunetedu message body
    should be in the format subscribe space John Public to join Note
    that the moderated SPACE Magazine list is defunct at present for lack of
    a moderator Old copies of SPACE Digest since its inception in 1981 are
    available by anonymous FTP Retrieve
	juliuscsqubacukpubSpaceDigestArchiveREADME
    for further details

    Elements is a moderated list for fast distribution of Space Shuttle
    Keplerian Elements before and during Shuttle flights NASA two line
    elements are sent out on the list from Dr Kelso JSC and other sources
    as they are released Email to elementsrequesttelesoftcom to join

    GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
    System and other satellite navigation positioning systems Email to
    gpsrequestesseyesicom to join

    Spaceinvestors is a list for information relevant to investing in
    spacerelated companies Email Vincent Cate vaccscmuedu to join

    Spacetech is a list for more technical discussion of space topics
    discussion has included esoteric propulsion technologies asteroid
    capture starflight orbital debris removal etc Email to
    spacetechrequestcscmuedu to join Archives of old digests and
    selected excerpts are available by anonymous FTP from
    gs80spcscmuedu 128220590 in usranonpublicspacetech
    or by email to spacetechrequest if you dont have FTP access

    SEDSL is a BITNET list for members of Students for the Exploration and
    Development of Space and other interested parties Email
    LISTSERVTAMVM1BITNET with a message saying SUBSCRIBE SEDSL your
    name Email saying INDEX SEDSL to list the archive contents

    SEDSNEWS is a BITNET list for news items press releases shuttle status
    reports and the like This duplicates material which is also found in
    Space Digest scispace scispaceshuttle and sciastro Email
    LISTSERVTAMVM1BITNET saying SUBSCRIBE SEDSNEWS your name to join
    Email saying INDEX SEDSNEWS to list the archive contents

    Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov runs a mailing list which
    carries the contents of the scispacenews Usenet group Email him
    to join the list

    As a general note please mail to the request address to get off a
    mailing list SPACE Digest for example relays many inappropriate
    please remove me from this list messages which are sent to the list
    address rather than the request address

PERIODICALLY UPDATED INFORMATION

    In addition to this FAQ list a broad variety of topical information is
    posted to the net unless otherwise noted in the new group
    scispacenews created for this purpose Please remember that the
    individuals posting this information are performing a service for all
    net readers and dont take up their time with frivolous requests

    ACRONYMS
	Garrett Wollman wollmanUVMEDU posts an acronym list around the
	first of each month

    ASTROFTP LIST
	Veikko Makela veikkomakelahelsinkifi posts a monthly list of
	anonymous FTP servers containing astronomy and space related
	material to scispace and sciastro

    AVIATION WEEK
	Henry Spencer henryzootorontoedu posts summaries of
	spacerelated stories in the weekly _Aviation Week and Space
	Technology_

    BUYING TELESCOPES
	Ronnie Kon ronnieciscocom posts a guide to buying telescopes to
	sciastro

    ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASA
	Don Barry doncharagsuedu posts the monthly Electronic Journal
	of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic to sciastro

    FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
	Swaraj Jeyasingh sjeyasinaxionbtcouk posts summaries of
	spacerelated news from _Flight International_ This focuses more on
	nonUS space activities than Aviation Week

    LARGE ASTRONOMICAL PROJECTS
	Robert Bunge rbungeaccessdigexcom posts a list describing many
	Large Telescope Projects Either Being Considered or in the Works
	to sciastro

    NASA HEADLINE NEWS  SHUTTLE REPORTS
	Peter Yee yeeamesarcnasagov posts a variety of NASA material
	including NASA Headline News with the schedule for NASA SELECT
	shuttle payload briefings and flight manifests and KSC shuttle
	status reports For Usenet users much of this material appears in
	the group scispaceshuttle

    NASA UPDATES
	Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov posts frequent updates from
	JPL Ames and other centers on the Ulysses Gailileo Pioneer
	Magellan Landsat and other missions

    ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
	TS Kelso tkelsoblackbirdafitafmil posts orbital elements from
	NASA Prediction Bulletins

	Mike Rose mrosestsciedu posts orbital elements for the Hubble
	Space Telescope to sciastro

	Jost Jahn jjahnabbshansede posts ephemerides for asteroids
	comets conjunctions and encounters to sciastro

    SATELLITE LAUNCHES
	Richard Langley langunbca posts SPACEWARN Bulletin which
	describes recent launchorbital decay information and satellites
	which are useful for scientific activities Recent bulletins are
	available by anonymous FTP from nssdcagsfcnasagov in
	ANON_DIR[000000ACTIVESPX]

    SHUTTLE MANIFEST
	Ken Hollis gandalfproelectricctscom posts a compressed version
	of the Space Shuttle launch manifest to scispaceshuttle This
	includes dates times payloads and information on how to see
	launches and landings

    SOLAR ACTIVITY
	Cary Oler olerhgulethca posts Solar Terrestrial reports
	describing solar activity and its effect on the Earth to
	scispace The report is issued in part from data released by the
	Space Enviroment Services Center Boulder Colorado The intro
	document needed to understand these reports is available by
	anonymous FTP from solarstanfordedu 361004 in
	pubunderstanding_solar_terrestrial_reports nicfunetfi
	1282146100 also has this document in
	pubmiscrecradioshortwavesolarreports and is an archive site
	for the reports please note this site is in Europe and the
	connection to the US is only 56KB A new primary archive site
	xiulethca 14266329 has recently been established and will be
	actively supported

    SOVIET SPACE ACTIVITIES
	Glenn Chapman glennccssfuca posts summaries of Soviet space
	activities

    SPACE ACTIVIST NEWSLETTER
	Allen Sherzer awsitiorg posts a newsletter One Small Step for
	a Space Activist to talkpoliticsspace It describes current
	legislative activity affecting NASA and commercial space activities

    SPACE EVENTS CALENDAR
	Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov posts a calendar including
	anniversaries conferences launch dates meteor showers and
	eclipses and other spacerelated events

    SPACE NEWS
	John Magliacane kd2bdka2qhdUUCP posts SpaceNews covering
	AMSATs NOAA and other weather satellites and other ham
	information to recradioamateurmisc and scispace

    SPACE REPORT
	Jonathan McDowell mcdowellcfaharvardedu posts Jonathans Space
	Report covering launches landings reentries status reports
	satellite activities etc

    TOWARD 2001
	Bev Freed freednssfidonetorg posts Toward 2001 a weekly
	global news summary reprinted from _Space Calendar_ magazine


WARNING ABOUT NONPUBLIC NETWORKS

    Included at the suggestion of Eugene Miya who wrote the item

    NASA has an internal system of unclassified electronic mail and bulletin
    boards This system is not open for public use Specifically NASA
    personnel and procurement operations are regarded with some sensitivity
    Contractors must renegotiate their contracts The Fair and Open
    Procurement Act does not look kindly to those having inside information
    Contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can
    expect severe penalities Unauthorized access attempts may subject you
    to a fine andor imprisonment in accordance with Title 18 USC Section
    1030 If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact
    NASA personnel

    Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste None
    have ever been substantiated to any significant degree Readers
    detecting Fraud Waste Abuse or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
    Inspector General 24hours at 8004249183 can be anonymous or write

	NASA
	Inspector General
	PO Box 23089
	Lenfant Plaza Station
	Washington DC 20024

NEXT FAQ 315  Online and some offline sources of images data etc

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 19

nancyo@fraser.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor) writes:

>timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:

>>Rule #4:  Don't mix apples with oranges.  How can you say that the
>>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin?  Khan conquered people
>>unsympathetic to his cause.  That was atrocious.  But Stalin killed millions of
>>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!!  How can
>>anyone be worse than that?

>You're right.  And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian.

Yup.  I can hear the _millions_ cheering for DK right now!  Josef Stalin eat
your heart out!  :)
--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 19

nancyofrasersfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor writes

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes

Rule 4  Dont mix apples with oranges  How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin  Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause  That was atrocious  But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state  How can
anyone be worse than that

Youre right  And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian

Yup  I can hear the _millions_ cheering for DK right now  Josef Stalin eat
your heart out  

Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: What counntries do space surveillance?
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 35

The European Space Agency has involvement with remote earth 
observation, and I presume this includes surveillance (optical etc.).
So it's not just the US/USSR(ex) who are in the game.

But what *is* the game? What can be done with space observation?
The military functions of missile spotting, troop spotting etc. are well
documented, but what about anything else?

The biggest eg I can think of is to get a  metal sensing sat over a
paying country and scan their territory for  precious metals.

More importantly, if radar can spot water vapour (clouds), presumably
a radar based sat will be capable of spotting rivers,open water and 
*underground water* from space. This would be a positive life saver
for African or other drought affected countries. Implementing a
clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such
countries and should cut down mortalities considerably.

So how about it? Is there a charity or government agency that would
pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits
mapped?

Or is this still sci-fi?

Mail replies would be great.

Thought for the day: Thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick
it in the ocean!


-- 
****************************************************************************  
                  Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"

after prepro  From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re What counntries do space surveillance
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 35

The European Space Agency has involvement with remote earth 
observation and I presume this includes surveillance optical etc
So its not just the USUSSRex who are in the game

But what is the game What can be done with space observation
The military functions of missile spotting troop spotting etc are well
documented but what about anything else

The biggest eg I can think of is to get a  metal sensing sat over a
paying country and scan their territory for  precious metals

More importantly if radar can spot water vapour clouds presumably
a radar based sat will be capable of spotting riversopen water and 
underground water from space This would be a positive life saver
for African or other drought affected countries Implementing a
clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such
countries and should cut down mortalities considerably

So how about it Is there a charity or government agency that would
pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits
mapped

Or is this still scifi

Mail replies would be great

Thought for the day Thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick
it in the ocean


 
  
                  Marvin Batty  djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

dace@shrike.und.ac.za (Roy Dace) writes:

>Keith Allan Schneider (keith@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:

>Some soldiers are dependent on religion, for a number of purposes.
>And some are no doubt dependent on cocaine, yet I don't see the military paying
>for coca fields.

While religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation, what are
the benefits of cocaine?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

daceshrikeundacza Roy Dace writes

Keith Allan Schneider keithccocaltechedu wrote

Some soldiers are dependent on religion for a number of purposes
And some are no doubt dependent on cocaine yet I dont see the military paying
for coca fields

While religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation what are
the benefits of cocaine

keith

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Islamic marriage?
In-Reply-To: <C51CJp.1LF8@austin.ibm.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 44

>DATE:   Tue, 6 Apr 1993 00:11:49 GMT
>FROM:   F. Karner <karner@austin.ibm.com>
>
>In article <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
>> In article <C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
>> >
>> >Okay.  So you want me to name names?  There are obviously no official
>> >records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for
>> >convenience.  What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
>> >in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of. 
>> >The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
>> >religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex.  Nobody complains,
>> >nobody cares, nobody needs to know.
>> >
>> >Perhaps you should alert your imam.  It could be that this practice is
>> >far more widespread than you may think.  Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
>> >to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists!
>> >-- 
>> >
>> 
>> Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, Muslims
>> are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? There is
>> no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts 
>> straight buddy. Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
>> were lying. It is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in
>> fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
>> Muslims.

Did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from The Indonesian
Handbook and Fred Rice's comments about temporary marriages?  If so, 
I will be glad to repost them.  Will you accept that it just may be 
a practice among some Muslims, if I do?  Or will you continue to claim
that we are all lying and that it is "not practised at all amongst Muslims".

I don't think F. Karner has to tell everyone anything.  Least of all that
he is lying.

Since you obviously know nothing about this practice, there is very little
you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying.
Perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing.  Learn more about Islam.
Learn more about Muslims.  Open your eyes.  Maybe you will also see some
of the things the atheists see.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re Islamic marriage
InReplyTo 
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 44

DATE   Tue 6 Apr 1993 001149 GMT
FROM   F Karner 

In article 1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
 In article  karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes
 
 Okay  So you want me to name names  There are obviously no official
 records of these pseudomarriages because they are performed for
 convenience  What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
 in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of 
 The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
 religious marriage contract in order to have sex  Nobody complains
 nobody cares nobody needs to know
 
 Perhaps you should alert your imam  It could be that this practice is
 far more widespread than you may think  Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
 to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists
  
 
 
 Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display Muslims
 are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages got that There is
 no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts 
 straight buddy Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
 were lying It is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in
 fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
 Muslims

Did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from The Indonesian
Handbook and Fred Rices comments about temporary marriages  If so 
I will be glad to repost them  Will you accept that it just may be 
a practice among some Muslims if I do  Or will you continue to claim
that we are all lying and that it is not practised at all amongst Muslims

I dont think F Karner has to tell everyone anything  Least of all that
he is lying

Since you obviously know nothing about this practice there is very little
you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying
Perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing  Learn more about Islam
Learn more about Muslims  Open your eyes  Maybe you will also see some
of the things the atheists see



preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: na
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 20

In article <C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu
(Bill Conner) wrote:
> As for your question of moral free-agency, given the Christian
> position above, the freedom we have is to acknowledge God. The
> morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that
> freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
> ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
> in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only
> that he prefers not to accept it, it says nothing about the evidence
> itself. 

I agree, I had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother
who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings.
I preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided
the truth itself. Life is hard.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution na
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 20

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu
Bill Conner wrote
 As for your question of moral freeagency given the Christian
 position above the freedom we have is to acknowledge God The
 morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that
 freedom You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
 ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
 in both cases That an atheist cant accept the evidence means only
 that he prefers not to accept it it says nothing about the evidence
 itself 

I agree I had a hard feeling not believing my grandgrand mother
who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings
I preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided
the truth itself Life is hard

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov (James Felder)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines: 100
Distribution: world
Reply-To: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper3.lerc.nasa.gov

In article 734849678@saturn.wwc.edu, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
->	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
->makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
->lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
->writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
->in the process he became a Christian himself.

Sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy.  Just what organization did he 
belong to? Does it have a name?

->	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
->modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

Logic alert - artificial trifercation.  The are many other possible explainations.  Could have been
that he never existed.  There have been some good points made in this group that is not 
impossible  that JC is an amalgam of a number of different myths, Mithra comes to mind.

->	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
->die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
->gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
->someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
->heal people.  


Logic alert -  argument from incredulity.  Just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn't
mean that it isn't true.  Liars can be very pursuasive, just look at Koresh that you yourself site.
He has followers that don't think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die.
By not giving up after getting shot himself, Koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what 
he believes.  As far as healing goes.  If I rememer right the healing that was attributed is not
consistent between the different gospels.  In one of them the healing that is done is not any more 
that faith healers can pull off today.  Seems to me that the early gospels weren't that compeling,
so the stories got bigger to appeal better.

->	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
->to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
->anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
->this right away.
->	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
->real thing.  


Or might not have existed, or any number of things.  That is the logical pitfall that those who
use flawed logic like this fall into.  There are bifurcations (or tri, quad, etc) that are valid, because
in the proceeding steps, the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are 
possible.  Once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are, then arguments among
the alternatives can be presentent, and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding
all other possible alternatives.

However, if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive, then any conclusions bases on the 
incomplete set are invalid, even if the true choice is one of the original choices.  I have given at 
least one valid alternative, so the conclusion that JC is the real McCoy just because he isn't one of
the other two alternative is no longer valid.

->	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
->the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
->and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
->write I will use it.

JC was a rabbi.  He knew what those prophecies were.  It wouldn't be any great shakes to make
sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy.  What would be compeling is if there
were a set of clear and explicit prophecies AND JC had absolutely NO knowledge of then,  yet 
fullfilled them anyway.

->	I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.  It 
->is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.  Rather I think it 
->should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
->sake.  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
->same.  Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
->over to him.  That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a 
->real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at.  But 
->just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes 
->time.  We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.  
->It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in 
->a while.  We box everything into time units.  Such as work at this 
->time, sports, Tv, social life.  God is above these boxes and should be 
->carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
->ourselves.  

Here I agree with you.  Anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says 
seriously, and what it says is that it must be a total way of life.  I have very little respect for 
Xians that don't.  If the myth is true, then it is true in its entirity.  The picking and choosing
that I see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Jim	  




---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James L. Felder			|
Sverdrup Technology,Inc.	|     phone: 216-891-4019
NASA Lewis Research Center     	|    
Cleveland, Ohio  44135         	|     email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov 
"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------




after prepro  From spbachlercnasagov James Felder
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines 100
Distribution world
ReplyTo spbachlercnasagov
NNTPPostingHost hopper3lercnasagov

In article 734849678saturnwwcedu bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
in the process he became a Christian himself

Sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy  Just what organization did he 
belong to Does it have a name

	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was

Logic alert  artificial trifercation  The are many other possible explainations  Could have been
that he never existed  There have been some good points made in this group that is not 
impossible  that JC is an amalgam of a number of different myths Mithra comes to mind

	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
heal people  


Logic alert   argument from incredulity  Just because it is hard for you to believe this doesnt
mean that it isnt true  Liars can be very pursuasive just look at Koresh that you yourself site
He has followers that dont think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die
By not giving up after getting shot himself Koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what 
he believes  As far as healing goes  If I rememer right the healing that was attributed is not
consistent between the different gospels  In one of them the healing that is done is not any more 
that faith healers can pull off today  Seems to me that the early gospels werent that compeling
so the stories got bigger to appeal better

	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away
	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  


Or might not have existed or any number of things  That is the logical pitfall that those who
use flawed logic like this fall into  There are bifurcations or tri quad etc that are valid because
in the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are 
possible  Once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are then arguments among
the alternatives can be presentent and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding
all other possible alternatives

However if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive then any conclusions bases on the 
incomplete set are invalid even if the true choice is one of the original choices  I have given at 
least one valid alternative so the conclusion that JC is the real McCoy just because he isnt one of
the other two alternative is no longer valid

	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 
and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
write I will use it

JC was a rabbi  He knew what those prophecies were  It wouldnt be any great shakes to make
sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy  What would be compeling is if there
were a set of clear and explicit prophecies AND JC had absolutely NO knowledge of then  yet 
fullfilled them anyway

	I dont think most people understand what a Christian is  It 
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches  Rather I think it 
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods 
sake  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
same  Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
over to him  Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a 
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at  But 
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes 
time  We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life  
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in 
a while  We box everything into time units  Such as work at this 
time sports Tv social life  God is above these boxes and should be 
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
ourselves  

Here I agree with you  Anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says 
seriously and what it says is that it must be a total way of life  I have very little respect for 
Xians that dont  If the myth is true then it is true in its entirity  The picking and choosing
that I see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Jim	  







James L Felder			
Sverdrup TechnologyInc	     phone 2168914019
NASA Lewis Research Center     	    
Cleveland Ohio  44135         	     email jfelderlercnasagov 
Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle





preprocess doc  From: tholen@newton.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Lines: 23

Alan Carter writes:

>> 3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

> This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
> someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?

The name is rather descriptive.  It's a command to the spacecraft that tells
it "If you don't hear from Earth after 264 hours, assume something is wrong
with your (the spacecraft) attitude, and go into a preprogrammed search mode
in an attempt to reacquire the signal from Earth."

The spacecraft and Earth are not in constant communication with each other.
Earth monitors the telemetry from the spacecraft, and if everything is fine,
there's no reason to send it any new information.  But from the spacecraft's
point of view, no information from Earth could mean either everything is
fine, or that the spacecraft has lost signal acquisition.  Just how long
should the spacecraft wait before it decides that something is wrong and
begins to take corrective action?  That "how long" is the command loss timer.
During relatively inactive cruise phases, the command loss timer can be set
to rather long values.  In this case, Earth is telling Galileo "expect to
hear back from us sometime within the next 264 hours".

after prepro  From tholennewtonifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Organization Institute for Astronomy Hawaii
Lines 23

Alan Carter writes

 3  On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase

 This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
 someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is

The name is rather descriptive  Its a command to the spacecraft that tells
it If you dont hear from Earth after 264 hours assume something is wrong
with your the spacecraft attitude and go into a preprogrammed search mode
in an attempt to reacquire the signal from Earth

The spacecraft and Earth are not in constant communication with each other
Earth monitors the telemetry from the spacecraft and if everything is fine
theres no reason to send it any new information  But from the spacecrafts
point of view no information from Earth could mean either everything is
fine or that the spacecraft has lost signal acquisition  Just how long
should the spacecraft wait before it decides that something is wrong and
begins to take corrective action  That how long is the command loss timer
During relatively inactive cruise phases the command loss timer can be set
to rather long values  In this case Earth is telling Galileo expect to
hear back from us sometime within the next 264 hours

preprocess doc  From: ldaddari@polaris.cv.nrao.edu (Larry D'Addario)
Subject: Re: Russian Email Contacts.
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of Sat, 17 Apr 1993 12: 52:09 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Lines: 32

It is usually possible to reach people at IKI (Institute for Space
Research) in Moscow by writing to

	IKIMAIL@esoc1.bitnet

This is a machine at ESA in Darmstadt, Germany; IKI has a dedicated
phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to
retrieve mail.

In addition, there are several user accounts belonging to Russian
scientific institutions on

	<user>@sovam.com

which is a commercial enterprise based in San Francisco that provides
email services to the former USSR.  For example, fian@sovam.com is the
"PHysics Institute of the Academy of Sciences" (initials transliterated
from Russian, of course).  These connections cost the Russians real
dollars, even for *received* messages, so please don't send anything
voluminous or frivilous.

=====================================================================
Larry R. D'Addario
National Radio Astronomy Observatory

Addresses   (INTERNET) LDADDARI@NRAO.EDU
	    (FAX)      +1/804/296-0324 Charlottesville
		       +1/304/456-2200 Green Bank
	    (MAIL)     2015 Ivy Road, Charlottesville, VA 22903, USA
	    (PHONE)    +1/804/296-0245 office, 804/973-4983 home  CHO
		       +1/304/456-2226 off., -2106 lab, -2256 apt. GB
=====================================================================

after prepro  From ldaddaripolariscvnraoedu Larry DAddario
Subject Re Russian Email Contacts
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of Sat 17 Apr 1993 12 5209 GMT
Organization National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Lines 32

It is usually possible to reach people at IKI Institute for Space
Research in Moscow by writing to

	IKIMAILesoc1bitnet

This is a machine at ESA in Darmstadt Germany IKI has a dedicated
phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to
retrieve mail

In addition there are several user accounts belonging to Russian
scientific institutions on

	sovamcom

which is a commercial enterprise based in San Francisco that provides
email services to the former USSR  For example fiansovamcom is the
PHysics Institute of the Academy of Sciences initials transliterated
from Russian of course  These connections cost the Russians real
dollars even for received messages so please dont send anything
voluminous or frivilous


Larry R DAddario
National Radio Astronomy Observatory

Addresses   INTERNET LDADDARINRAOEDU
	    FAX      18042960324 Charlottesville
		       13044562200 Green Bank
	    MAIL     2015 Ivy Road Charlottesville VA 22903 USA
	    PHONE    18042960245 office 8049734983 home  CHO
		       13044562226 off 2106 lab 2256 apt GB


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 65

Jim Perry (perry@dsinc.com) wrote:

: }Xenophobia, both *de facto* and *de jure* as implemented
: }in legal systems, is widespread, while the Bible,
: }although not 100% egalitarian, specifically preaches
: }kindness to the stranger, and emphasizes in the Book
: }of Ruth, that a foreigner can join the nation and
: }give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation.
: 
: Clearly better than the alternative, but as an American what strikes
: me as strange about this story is that it should have even been
: considered an issue.

Jim,

There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
determnined.
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident. For an atheist, no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
an event can have value. 
The products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment,
from teaching, training, observation and experience and are only
significant to the individual mind wherein they reside. These mental
processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical
activity and nothing more; content is of no consequence. The human
mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a
hill.
How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values.
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
- that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any "absolute" sense.
That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.
I didn't make these rules, it's inherent in naturalistic atheism and
to be consistent, you have to accept the non-significance of any human
thought, even your own. All of this being so, you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 65

Jim Perry perrydsinccom wrote

 Xenophobia both de facto and de jure as implemented
 in legal systems is widespread while the Bible
 although not 100 egalitarian specifically preaches
 kindness to the stranger and emphasizes in the Book
 of Ruth that a foreigner can join the nation and
 give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation
 
 Clearly better than the alternative but as an American what strikes
 me as strange about this story is that it should have even been
 considered an issue

Jim

There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature  exclusively There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
determnined
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence its just a happy accident For an atheist no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about
an event can have value 
The products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment
from teaching training observation and experience and are only
significant to the individual mind wherein they reside These mental
processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical
activity and nothing more content is of no consequence The human
mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a
hill
How then can an atheist judge value What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned It
seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what
in nature can serve that purpose What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what
difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or
otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value The only
way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that heshe just doesnt like it
 thats it Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any absolute sense
That you dont like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or Gods commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a preexisting thoughtset to form that reaction That your
objections seem well founded is due to the way youve been
conditioned there is no truth content The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality
I didnt make these rules its inherent in naturalistic atheism and
to be consistent you have to accept the nonsignificance of any human
thought even your own All of this being so you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil
etc and cannot participate Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever

Bill

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <C51DAq.2Fqs@austin.ibm.com>, karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
>
> So, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic? 

When someone says:

	"So after 1000 years of sightseeing and roaming around its 
	ok to come back, kill Palastinians, and get their land back, 
	right?"

Yes, that's casual antisemitism.    I can think of plenty of ways
to criticize Israeli policy without insulting Jews or Jewish history.

Can't you?

jon 

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 16
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article  karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes

 So you consider the german posters remark antisemitic 

When someone says

	So after 1000 years of sightseeing and roaming around its 
	ok to come back kill Palastinians and get their land back 
	right

Yes thats casual antisemitism    I can think of plenty of ways
to criticize Israeli policy without insulting Jews or Jewish history

Cant you

jon 

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: rfox@charlie.usd.edu (Rich Fox, Univ of South Dakota)
Reply-To: rfox@charlie.usd.edu
Organization: The University of South Dakota Computer Science Dept.
Nntp-Posting-Host: charlie
Lines: 26

In article <1pik3i$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <C4u51L.8Bv@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>|>
>|> 
>|> Why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so
>|> incidental, if the question of God is trivial? Fess up, it matters to
>|> you a great deal.
>
>Ask yourself two questions.
>
>	1.   How important is Mithras in your life today?
>
>	2.   How important would Mithras become if there was a
>	     well funded group of fanatics trying to get the
>	     schools system to teach your children that Mithras
>	     was the one true God?
>
>jon.

Right on, Jon!  Who cares who or whose, as long as it works for the individual.
But don't try to impose those beliefs on us or our children.  I would add the
well-funded group tries also to purge science, to deny children access to great
wonders and skills.  And how about the kids born to creationists?  What a
burden with which to begin adult life.  It must be a cruel awakening for those
who finally see the light, provided it is possible to escape from the depths of
this type of ignorance.

after prepro  Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From rfoxcharlieusdedu Rich Fox Univ of South Dakota
ReplyTo rfoxcharlieusdedu
Organization The University of South Dakota Computer Science Dept
NntpPostingHost charlie
Lines 26

In article 1pik3i1l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes

 
 Why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so
 incidental if the question of God is trivial Fess up it matters to
 you a great deal

Ask yourself two questions

	1   How important is Mithras in your life today

	2   How important would Mithras become if there was a
	     well funded group of fanatics trying to get the
	     schools system to teach your children that Mithras
	     was the one true God

jon

Right on Jon  Who cares who or whose as long as it works for the individual
But dont try to impose those beliefs on us or our children  I would add the
wellfunded group tries also to purge science to deny children access to great
wonders and skills  And how about the kids born to creationists  What a
burden with which to begin adult life  It must be a cruel awakening for those
who finally see the light provided it is possible to escape from the depths of
this type of ignorance

preprocess doc  From: dgempey@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (David Gordon Empey)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In <1993Apr23.165459.3323@coe.montana.edu> uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote) writes:

>In sci.astro, dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:

>[ a nearly perfect parody  -- needed more random CAPS]


>Thanks for the chuckle.  (I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
>in Somalia!)

>To those who've taken this seriously, READ THE NAME! (aloud)

Well, I thought it must have been a joke, but I don't get the 
joke in the name. Read it aloud? David MACaloon. David MacALLoon.
David macalOON. I don't geddit.

-Dave Empey (speaking for himself)
>-- 
>Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.  Enjoy the buffet! 



after prepro  From dgempeyucscbUCSCEDU David Gordon Empey
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization University of California Santa Cruz
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost ucscbucscedu


In 1993Apr231654593323coemontanaedu uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote writes

In sciastro dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes

[ a nearly perfect parody   needed more random CAPS]


Thanks for the chuckle  I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia

To those whove taken this seriously READ THE NAME aloud

Well I thought it must have been a joke but I dont get the 
joke in the name Read it aloud David MACaloon David MacALLoon
David macalOON I dont geddit

Dave Empey speaking for himself
 
Thank you thank you Ill be here all week  Enjoy the buffet 



preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
	<1993Apr16.015931.12153@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr16.015931.12153@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>

jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes:
> Welcome.  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
> are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
> Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster."  So the next time
> you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller.  Thanks again.
> 
> Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland

Of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?).  Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here!

Nanci

after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re New Member
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 16
	1993Apr1601593112153mnemosynecsduedu
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr1601593112153mnemosynecsduedu

jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes
 Welcome  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
 are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
 Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster  So the next time
 you post an article sign with your nickname like so
 Dave Buckminster Fuller  Thanks again
 
 Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland

Of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago you know the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed  Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here

Nanci

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>>The motto originated in the Star-Spangled Banner.  Tell me that this has
>>something to do with atheists.
>The motto _on_coins_ originated as a McCarthyite smear which equated atheism
>with Communism and called both unamerican.

No it didn't.  The motto has been on various coins since the Civil War.
It was just required to be on *all* currency in the 50's.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes

The motto originated in the StarSpangled Banner  Tell me that this has
something to do with atheists
The motto _on_coins_ originated as a McCarthyite smear which equated atheism
with Communism and called both unamerican

No it didnt  The motto has been on various coins since the Civil War
It was just required to be on all currency in the 50s

keith

preprocess doc  From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 82

   Two developments have brought these type of activities back to
the forefront in 1993.  First, in February, the Russians deployed a
20-m reflector from a Progress vehicle after it had departed from
the Mir Space Station.  While this "Banner" reflector was blank,
NPO Energia was very active in reporting that future  Banner
reflectors will be available to advertisers, who could use a space-
based video of their logo or ad printed on the Banner in a TV
commercial, as filmed from the Mir.
   The second development, has been that Space Marketing Inc, the
same company responsible for merchandising space on the Conestoga
booster and COMET spacecraft, is now pushing the "Environmental
Billboard".  As laid out by SMI Chief Engineer Dr Ron Humble of the
University of Colorado Space Laboratory and Preston Carter of the
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the "Environmental
Billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters.  Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area,
deployed by the inflatable 'frame'.
   To help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading
sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the Earth's
delicate protective ozone layer," according to Mike Lawson, head of
SMI. Furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the Earth's
atmosphere. According to IMI, "as the biodegradable material burns,
it will release ozone-building components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer." The remaining spacecraft will monitor
the atmosphere for another year before it, too, re-enters and burns
up and "adds to the ozone supply."
   This would not be a cheap advertisement, costing at least several
millions of dollars (exact costs were not available).  But SMI
estimates that market exposure would be 3-5X that of the people who
watched the SuperBowl, where a 30-second advertising 'unit' cost
$600,000.  Since SMI is located in Atlanta, Georgia, it is being
promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996
Summer Olympics in Atlanta.
  
But back to Brian's questions:
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
  
    See above. As for serious -- if they can get $15-20 M or so (my
estimate of $5-10 for development costs and a flight unit, plus
$10-15 M for a launch), then it's probably real.  They are claiming to
tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for
optimum advertising impact so they probably can't piggy back upon
someone else's planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated
launch.  That's a $10-15 M cost they need to raise, right there.
    And there will probably be some legal challenges to this as
well.  Note there is one potential legal challenge to SMI on the use
of launch vehicle advertising already.  While I don't think the
legal challenges would win out (and yes, I am an amateur astronomer,
and no, I don't really like the idea of this additional light
pollution, but I know of no prohibition of it...),  the legal
challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive
aspects of the advertising.  I can imagine several ways to make the
advertisers look like louts for doing this -- which would change
positive market exposure to negative market exposure, and negate the
space advertising advantage.  (Would you spend $15 M to look like an
idiot?)
   (And light pollution might not be too bad -- if it's in a low
enough orbit, and it relies upon reflected light only, it would
only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before
dawn.  For maximum market exposure, you want to have it visible just
after dusk --minimizing impact on astronomy, since that's the time
of worse seeing due to day/night thermal turbulence.  It might still
be a problem, but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this...)
    As for having real funding -- none that I can identify.  There
were about 60 expressions of interest made on the Conestoga
advertising opportunity, but that included curious folks and was for
only a $500,000 commitment.  I haven't heard of any serious funding
for this, but I'm sure they are shopping the venture around looking
for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more.  But I
am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time.
  
   And if anybody wants to cross-post this to sci.astro, please be
my guest.  I don't have posting privileges to that area (or at least
I don't THINK I do...).
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                            Space Technology Investor

--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Advertising 2 of 2
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 82

   Two developments have brought these type of activities back to
the forefront in 1993  First in February the Russians deployed a
20m reflector from a Progress vehicle after it had departed from
the Mir Space Station  While this Banner reflector was blank
NPO Energia was very active in reporting that future  Banner
reflectors will be available to advertisers who could use a space
based video of their logo or ad printed on the Banner in a TV
commercial as filmed from the Mir
   The second development has been that Space Marketing Inc the
same company responsible for merchandising space on the Conestoga
booster and COMET spacecraft is now pushing the Environmental
Billboard  As laid out by SMI Chief Engineer Dr Ron Humble of the
University of Colorado Space Laboratory and Preston Carter of the
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory the Environmental
Billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters  Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area
deployed by the inflatable frame
   To help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading
sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the Earths
delicate protective ozone layer according to Mike Lawson head of
SMI Furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to reenter the Earths
atmosphere According to IMI as the biodegradable material burns
it will release ozonebuilding components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer The remaining spacecraft will monitor
the atmosphere for another year before it too reenters and burns
up and adds to the ozone supply
   This would not be a cheap advertisement costing at least several
millions of dollars exact costs were not available  But SMI
estimates that market exposure would be 35X that of the people who
watched the SuperBowl where a 30second advertising unit cost
600000  Since SMI is located in Atlanta Georgia it is being
promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996
Summer Olympics in Atlanta
  
But back to Brians questions
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip  How serious is this project  Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
  
    See above As for serious  if they can get 1520 M or so my
estimate of 510 for development costs and a flight unit plus
1015 M for a launch then its probably real  They are claiming to
tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for
optimum advertising impact so they probably cant piggy back upon
someone elses planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated
launch  Thats a 1015 M cost they need to raise right there
    And there will probably be some legal challenges to this as
well  Note there is one potential legal challenge to SMI on the use
of launch vehicle advertising already  While I dont think the
legal challenges would win out and yes I am an amateur astronomer
and no I dont really like the idea of this additional light
pollution but I know of no prohibition of it  the legal
challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive
aspects of the advertising  I can imagine several ways to make the
advertisers look like louts for doing this  which would change
positive market exposure to negative market exposure and negate the
space advertising advantage  Would you spend 15 M to look like an
idiot
   And light pollution might not be too bad  if its in a low
enough orbit and it relies upon reflected light only it would
only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before
dawn  For maximum market exposure you want to have it visible just
after dusk minimizing impact on astronomy since thats the time
of worse seeing due to daynight thermal turbulence  It might still
be a problem but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this
    As for having real funding  none that I can identify  There
were about 60 expressions of interest made on the Conestoga
advertising opportunity but that included curious folks and was for
only a 500000 commitment  I havent heard of any serious funding
for this but Im sure they are shopping the venture around looking
for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more  But I
am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time
  
   And if anybody wants to crosspost this to sciastro please be
my guest  I dont have posting privileges to that area or at least
I dont THINK I do
 
 Wales Larrison                            Space Technology Investor

 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Nntp-Posting-Host: sw2001
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson@swe2001.wins.icl.co.uk
Lines: 14

Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
> I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?

I've seen a film of it, my memory may be faulty, but as I
remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long, with a
thick baseplate 30-40 cm in diameter. I think the narrative said
it was propelled by dynamite sticks. There were four detonations
within about 2 s, the second coming after about 2 m of flight in.
Max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m, but that is hard 
to judge.
--
 Urban Fredriksson  urf@icl.se  

after prepro  From urficlse Urban F
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
NntpPostingHost sw2001
Organization None On USENET I speak only for myself
XAltreplyAddress ngufredrikssonswe2001winsiclcouk
Lines 14

Leigh Palmer  writes
 I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it

Ive seen a film of it my memory may be faulty but as I
remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long with a
thick baseplate 3040 cm in diameter I think the narrative said
it was propelled by dynamite sticks There were four detonations
within about 2 s the second coming after about 2 m of flight in
Max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m but that is hard 
to judge

 Urban Fredriksson  urficlse  

preprocess doc  Subject: So what is Maddi?
From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 12

As I was created in the image of Gaea, therefore I must
be the pinnacle of creation, She which Creates, She which
Births, She which Continues.

Or, to cut all the religious crap, I'm a woman, thanks.
And it's sexism that started me on the road to atheism.

-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  408/428-3553

Kids, please don't try this at home.  Remember, I post professionally.

after prepro  Subject So what is Maddi
From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 12

As I was created in the image of Gaea therefore I must
be the pinnacle of creation She which Creates She which
Births She which Continues

Or to cut all the religious crap Im a woman thanks
And its sexism that started me on the road to atheism

 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  4084283553

Kids please dont try this at home  Remember I post professionally

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Lines: 20
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

I have a nice quote that I like (or as close as I can remember it).

If I say something that you think is crazy, ask me what I mean before you think
its crazy.. 

So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright, and quite a few others.. Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. 

Sorry my two cents worth. Or is it two rubles worth?

The basic quote idea is from H. Beam Pipers book "Space Vikings". Its a good
book on how civilization can fall, and how it can be raised to new heights.

Unfortunately H. Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published, and have his ideas see light.. Such a waste.



after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Crazy or just Imaginitive
Lines 20
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

I have a nice quote that I like or as close as I can remember it

If I say something that you think is crazy ask me what I mean before you think
its crazy 

So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright and quite a few others Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless 

Sorry my two cents worth Or is it two rubles worth

The basic quote idea is from H Beam Pipers book Space Vikings Its a good
book on how civilization can fall and how it can be raised to new heights

Unfortunately H Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published and have his ideas see light Such a waste



preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 102
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr23.184732.1105@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes...

   {Description of "External Tank" option for SSF redesign deleted}

>Mark proposed this design at Joe Shea's committee in Crystal City,
>and he reports that he was warmly received.  However, the rumors
>I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
>seems more likely.

Yo Ken, let's keep on-top of things! Both the "External Tank" and
"Wingless Orbiter" options have been deleted from the SSF redesign
options list. Today's (4/23) edition of the New York Times reports
that O'Connor told the panel that some redesign proposals have
been dropped, such as using the "giant external fuel tanks used
in launching space shuttles," and building a "station around
an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed."

Currently, there are three options being considered, as presented
to the advisory panel meeting yesterday (and as reported in
today's Times).

Option "A" - Low Cost Modular Approach
This option is being studied by a team from MSFC. {As an aside,
there are SSF redesign teams at MSFC, JSC, and LaRC supporting
the SRT (Station Redesign Team) in Crystal City. Both LeRC and
Reston folks are also on-site at these locations, helping the respective
teams with their redesign activities.} Key features of this
option are:
  -  Uses "Bus-1", a modular bus developed by Lockheed that's
     qualified for STS and ELV's. The bus provides propulsion, GN&C
     Communications, & Data Management. Lockheed developed this
     for the Air Force.
  -  A "Power Station Capability" is obtained in 3 Shuttle Flights.
     SSF Solar arrays are used to provide 20 kW of power. The vehicle
     flies in an "arrow mode" to optimize the microgravity environment.
     Shuttle/Spacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power
     source for 30 day missions.
  -  Human tended capability (as opposed to the old SSF sexist term
     of man-tended capability) is achieved by the addition of the
     US Common module. This is a modified version of the existing
     SSF Lab module (docking ports are added for the International
     Partners' labs, taking the place of the nodes on SSF). The
     Shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions.
     The Orbiter would provide crew habitability & EVA capability.
  -  International Human Tended. Add the NASDA & ESA modules, and
     add another 20 kW of power
  -  Permanent Human Presence Capability. Add a 3rd power module,
     the U.S. habitation module, and an ACRV (Assured Crew Return
     Vehicle).

Option "B" - Space Station Freedom Derived
The Option "B" team is based at LaRC, and is lead by Mike Griffin.
This option looks alot like the existing SSF design, which we
have all come to know and love :)

This option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for
use on all SSF assembly flights (so does option "A"). Also, the 
number of flights is computed for a 51.6 inclination orbit,
for both options "A" and "B".

The build-up occurs in six phases:
  -  Initial Research Capability reached after 3 flights. Power
     is transferred from the vehicle to the Orbiter/Spacelab, when
     it visits.
  -  Man-Tended Capability (Griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist
     language) is achieved after 8 flights. The U.S. Lab is
     deployed, and 1 solar power module provides 20 kW of power.
  -  Permanent Human Presence Capability occurs after 10 flights, by
     keeping one Orbiter on-orbit to use as an ACRV (so sometimes
     there would be two Orbiters on-orbit - the ACRV, and the
     second one that comes up for Logistics & Re-supply).
  -  A "Two Fault Tolerance Capability" is achieved after 14 flights,
     with the addition of a 2nd power module, another thermal
     control system radiator, and more propulsion modules.
  -  After 20 flights, the Internationals are on-board. More power,
     the Habitation module, and an ACRV are added to finish the
     assembly in 24 flights.

Most of the systems currently on SSF are used as-is in this option, 
with the exception of the data management system, which has major
changes.

Option C - Single Core Launch Station.
This is the JSC lead option. Basically, you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a 
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors, and launch the can. Some key features are:
  - Complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout
  - 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
  - body mounted radiators (which adds protection against
    micrometeroid & orbital debris)
  - 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end)
  - 7 berthing ports
  - a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet
    (twice the volume of skylab).
  - 7 floors, center passageway between floors
  - 10 kW of housekeeping power
  - graceful degradation with failures (8 power channels, 4 thermal
    loops, dual environmental control & life support system)
  - increased crew time for utilization
  - 1 micro-g thru out the core module

after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 102
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr231847321105aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes

   Description of External Tank option for SSF redesign deleted

Mark proposed this design at Joe Sheas committee in Crystal City
and he reports that he was warmly received  However the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely

Yo Ken lets keep ontop of things Both the External Tank and
Wingless Orbiter options have been deleted from the SSF redesign
options list Todays 423 edition of the New York Times reports
that OConnor told the panel that some redesign proposals have
been dropped such as using the giant external fuel tanks used
in launching space shuttles and building a station around
an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed

Currently there are three options being considered as presented
to the advisory panel meeting yesterday and as reported in
todays Times

Option A  Low Cost Modular Approach
This option is being studied by a team from MSFC As an aside
there are SSF redesign teams at MSFC JSC and LaRC supporting
the SRT Station Redesign Team in Crystal City Both LeRC and
Reston folks are also onsite at these locations helping the respective
teams with their redesign activities Key features of this
option are
    Uses Bus1 a modular bus developed by Lockheed thats
     qualified for STS and ELVs The bus provides propulsion GNC
     Communications  Data Management Lockheed developed this
     for the Air Force
    A Power Station Capability is obtained in 3 Shuttle Flights
     SSF Solar arrays are used to provide 20 kW of power The vehicle
     flies in an arrow mode to optimize the microgravity environment
     ShuttleSpacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power
     source for 30 day missions
    Human tended capability as opposed to the old SSF sexist term
     of mantended capability is achieved by the addition of the
     US Common module This is a modified version of the existing
     SSF Lab module docking ports are added for the International
     Partners labs taking the place of the nodes on SSF The
     Shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions
     The Orbiter would provide crew habitability  EVA capability
    International Human Tended Add the NASDA  ESA modules and
     add another 20 kW of power
    Permanent Human Presence Capability Add a 3rd power module
     the US habitation module and an ACRV Assured Crew Return
     Vehicle

Option B  Space Station Freedom Derived
The Option B team is based at LaRC and is lead by Mike Griffin
This option looks alot like the existing SSF design which we
have all come to know and love 

This option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for
use on all SSF assembly flights so does option A Also the 
number of flights is computed for a 516 inclination orbit
for both options A and B

The buildup occurs in six phases
    Initial Research Capability reached after 3 flights Power
     is transferred from the vehicle to the OrbiterSpacelab when
     it visits
    ManTended Capability Griffin has not yet adopted nonsexist
     language is achieved after 8 flights The US Lab is
     deployed and 1 solar power module provides 20 kW of power
    Permanent Human Presence Capability occurs after 10 flights by
     keeping one Orbiter onorbit to use as an ACRV so sometimes
     there would be two Orbiters onorbit  the ACRV and the
     second one that comes up for Logistics  Resupply
    A Two Fault Tolerance Capability is achieved after 14 flights
     with the addition of a 2nd power module another thermal
     control system radiator and more propulsion modules
    After 20 flights the Internationals are onboard More power
     the Habitation module and an ACRV are added to finish the
     assembly in 24 flights

Most of the systems currently on SSF are used asis in this option 
with the exception of the data management system which has major
changes

Option C  Single Core Launch Station
This is the JSC lead option Basically you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder thats 92 ft long slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a 
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors and launch the can Some key features are
   Complete endtoend ground integration and checkout
   4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
   body mounted radiators which adds protection against
    micrometeroid  orbital debris
   2 centerline docking ports one on each end
   7 berthing ports
   a single pressurized volume approximately 26000 cubic feet
    twice the volume of skylab
   7 floors center passageway between floors
   10 kW of housekeeping power
   graceful degradation with failures 8 power channels 4 thermal
    loops dual environmental control  life support system
   increased crew time for utilization
   1 microg thru out the core module

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr5.171143.828@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> In article <2942949719.2.p00261@psilink.com>, "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
|> >>DATE:   Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500
|> >>FROM:   Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
|> >>
|> >>
|> >>> > 3. Can god uncreate itself?
|> >>> 
|> >>> No.  For if He did, He would violate His own nature which He cannot do.
|> >>> It is God's nature to Exist.  He is, after all, the "I AM" which is
|> >>> a statement of His inherent Existence.  He is existence itself.
|> >>> Existence cannot "not-exist".
|> >>
|> >>Then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent.
|> >>
|> 
|> What do you mean by omnipotent here?  Do you mean by "omnipotent"
|> that God should be able to do anything/everything?  This creates
|> a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
|> useless.
|> 
|> To be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and
|> not "being able to do anything/everything".
|> 
|> Let me illustrate by analogy.
|> Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth.  Suppose
|> further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
|> nation or group of nations.  The US has the power to go into any country
|> at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
|> US see fit.  The US would be militarily "omnipotent".

Did you check with the Afghans before posting this?   They
might disagree.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Omnipotence was Re Speculations
Organization sgi
Lines 35
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr5171143828batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
 In article 29429497192p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes
 DATE   Fri 2 Apr 1993 230222 0500
 FROM   Nanci Ann Miller 
 
 
   3 Can god uncreate itself
  
  No  For if He did He would violate His own nature which He cannot do
  It is Gods nature to Exist  He is after all the I AM which is
  a statement of His inherent Existence  He is existence itself
  Existence cannot notexist
 
 Then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent
 
 
 What do you mean by omnipotent here  Do you mean by omnipotent
 that God should be able to do anythingeverything  This creates
 a selfcontradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
 useless
 
 To be descriptive omnipotence must mean being allpowerful and
 not being able to do anythingeverything
 
 Let me illustrate by analogy
 Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth  Suppose
 further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
 nation or group of nations  The US has the power to go into any country
 at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
 US see fit  The US would be militarily omnipotent

Did you check with the Afghans before posting this   They
might disagree

jon

preprocess doc  From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 40

In article <1pqdor$9s2@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.071823.13253@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history, and 
>Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany.

I think the problem here is that I pretty much ignored the part
about the Jews sightseeing for 2000 years, thinking instead that
the important part of what the original poster said was the bit
about killing Palestinians.  In retrospect, I can see how the
sightseeing thing would be offensive to many.  I originally saw
it just as poetic license, but it's understandable that others
might see it differently.  I still think that Ken came on a bit
strong though.  I also think that your advice to Masud Khan:

  #Before you argue with someone like Mr Arromdee, it's a good idea to
  #do a little homework, or at least think.

was unnecessary.

>That's right.   There have been.    There have also been people who
>were formally Nazis.   But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
>without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
>street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly
>acceptable.
>
>Now what exactly don't you understand about what I wrote, and why
>don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand?

Throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit
assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual
anti-semitism.  If I agreed with that, then maybe your speech
on why this is bad might have been relevant.  But I think you're
reading a lot into one flip sentence.  While probably not
true in this case, too often the charge of anti-semitism gets
thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the
state of Israel.

Anyway, I'd rather be somewhere else, so I'm outta this thread.
--
Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.

after prepro  From dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 40

In article 1pqdor9s2fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1993Apr307182313253bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history and 
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany

I think the problem here is that I pretty much ignored the part
about the Jews sightseeing for 2000 years thinking instead that
the important part of what the original poster said was the bit
about killing Palestinians  In retrospect I can see how the
sightseeing thing would be offensive to many  I originally saw
it just as poetic license but its understandable that others
might see it differently  I still think that Ken came on a bit
strong though  I also think that your advice to Masud Khan

  Before you argue with someone like Mr Arromdee its a good idea to
  do a little homework or at least think

was unnecessary

Thats right   There have been    There have also been people who
were formally Nazis   But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual antisemitism was perfectly
acceptable

Now what exactly dont you understand about what I wrote and why
dont you see what it has to do with the matter at hand

Throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit
assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual
antisemitism  If I agreed with that then maybe your speech
on why this is bad might have been relevant  But I think youre
reading a lot into one flip sentence  While probably not
true in this case too often the charge of antisemitism gets
thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the
state of Israel

Anyway Id rather be somewhere else so Im outta this thread

Doug Graham         dgrahambnrca         My opinions are my own

preprocess doc  From: dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein)
Subject: japanese moon landing?
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Lines: 17

Afraid I can't give any more info on this.. and hoping someone in greter
NETLAND has some details.

A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.

the article was very vague and unclear.  and, to make matters worse, I
didn't clip it.

does this jog anyone's memory?


thanks
dannyb@panix.com



after prepro  From dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein
Subject japanese moon landing
Organization PANIX Public Access Unix NYC
Lines 17

Afraid I cant give any more info on this and hoping someone in greter
NETLAND has some details

A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon

the article was very vague and unclear  and to make matters worse I
didnt clip it

does this jog anyones memory


thanks
dannybpanixcom



preprocess doc  From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms )
Keywords: trumpet calls, infrastructure, public perception
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 32

In article <1pfj8k$6ab@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Mar31.161814.11683@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>It isn't feasible for Japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they
>>would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power.

>Of course,  Given they export 50 % of the GNP,  What do they do.

Well they don't export anywhere near 50% of their GNP. Mexico's perhaps
but not their own. They actually export around the 9-10% mark. Similar
to most developed countries actually. Australia exports a larger share
of GNP as does the United States (14% I think off hand. Always likely to
be out by a factor of 12 or more though) This would be immediately obvious
if you thought about it.

>Anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will
>also hose their export routes.

It is their import routes that count. They can do without exports but
they couldn't live without imports for any longer than six months if that.

>Given they import everything,  oil is just one more critical commodity.

Too true! But one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry.

Joseph Askew

-- 
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.

after prepro  From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re the call to space was Re Clueless Szaboisms 
Keywords trumpet calls infrastructure public perception
Organization Statistics Pure  Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 32

In article 1pfj8k6abaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Mar3116181411683mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes

It isnt feasible for Japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they
would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power

Of course  Given they export 50  of the GNP  What do they do

Well they dont export anywhere near 50 of their GNP Mexicos perhaps
but not their own They actually export around the 910 mark Similar
to most developed countries actually Australia exports a larger share
of GNP as does the United States 14 I think off hand Always likely to
be out by a factor of 12 or more though This would be immediately obvious
if you thought about it

Anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will
also hose their export routes

It is their import routes that count They can do without exports but
they couldnt live without imports for any longer than six months if that

Given they import everything  oil is just one more critical commodity

Too true But one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry

Joseph Askew

 
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu  Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care  North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale the River murmurs on

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1ql0d3$5vo@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM> geoff@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top) writes:

>Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
>posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
>subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
>was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
>the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
>such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
>saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:

	Hey, it might to interesting to read some of these posts...
Especially from ones who still regularly posts on alt.atheism!


>>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
>
>An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?

	Hee hee hee.

	*I* ain't going to say....

--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

        John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.



after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 34
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1ql0d35vodrpepperEastSunCOM geoffEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold  Sun BOS  RH coast near the top writes

Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables

	Hey it might to interesting to read some of these posts
Especially from ones who still regularly posts on altatheism


From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky

An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is

	Hee hee hee

	I aint going to say

 

         Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken 

        John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word



preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Victims of various 'Good Fight's
In-Reply-To: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au's message of 12 Apr 93 21: 36:33 +0930
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
	<9454@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> <1993Apr12.213633.20143@levels.unisa.edu.au>
Lines: 12

>>>>> On 12 Apr 93 21:36:33 +0930, 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat) said:

TDB> 12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million

To be fair, this was going to happen eventually.  Given time, the Americans
would have reached Europe on their own and the same thing would have 
happened.  It was just a matter of who got together first.

--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Victims of various Good Fights
InReplyTo 9051467flevelsunisaeduaus message of 12 Apr 93 21 3633 0930
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
	9454tekig7PENTEKCOM 1993Apr1221363320143levelsunisaeduau
Lines 12

 On 12 Apr 93 213633 0930 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat said

TDB 12 Disease introduced to Brazilian  oher SAm tribes x million

To be fair this was going to happen eventually  Given time the Americans
would have reached Europe on their own and the same thing would have 
happened  It was just a matter of who got together first


Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
>>to be moral one?  That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
>>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it?
>No, I'm saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral, somebody/
>someone/something must _consider_ it to be so.  That implies intelligence,
>not instinct.

Who has to consider it?  The being that does the action?  I'm still
not sure I know what you are trying to say.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
to be moral one  That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it
No Im saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral somebody
someonesomething must _consider_ it to be so  That implies intelligence
not instinct

Who has to consider it  The being that does the action  Im still
not sure I know what you are trying to say

keith

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Overview for New Readers
Summary: Hi.  Please read this before you post.
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Thu, 20 May 1993 10:52:53 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930413094109@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 145

Archive-name: atheism/overview
Alt-atheism-archive-name: overview
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.2

                                   Overview

Welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.

This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups.

Many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post
them to the net.  In addition, people often request information which has
been posted time and time again.  In order to try and cut down on this, the
alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles:

   1.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Overview for New Readers
   2.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
   3.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
   4.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
   5.  Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources

This is article number 1.  Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting.  The
others are entirely optional.

If you are new to Usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
news.announce.newusers.  The articles titled "A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community", "Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet"
and "Hints on writing style for Usenet" are particularly relevant.  Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions.

If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "Finding
Stuff" section below.


                                   Credits

These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.  In particular, I'd like to
thank the following people:

kck+@cs.cmu.edu (Karl Kluge)
perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
NETOPRWA@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Wayne Aiken)
chpetk@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Toby Kelsey)
jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold)
torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf)
roe2@quads.uchicago.edu (Greg Roelofs)
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
ajr@bigbird.hri.com (Andy Rosen)
stoesser@ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser)
bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (Bryan O'Sullivan)
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
s1b3832@rigel.tamu.edu (S. Baum)
ydobyns@phoenix.princeton.edu (York H. Dobyns)
schroede@sdsc.edu (Wayne Schroeder)
baldwin@csservera.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
D_NIBBY@unhh.unh.edu (Dana Nibby)
dempsey@Kodak.COM (Richard C. Dempsey)
jmunch@hertz,elee.calpoly.edu (John David Munch)
pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
rz@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Richard Zach)
tycchow@math.mit.edu (Tim Chow)
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)

...and countless others I've forgotten.

These articles are free.  Truly free.  You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish.  However, please send any changes or corrections to the
author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network.


                                Finding Stuff

All of the FAQ files *should* be somewhere on your news system.  Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them:

1. Check the newsgroup alt.atheism.  Look for subject lines starting with
   "Alt.Atheism FAQ:".

2. Check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines.

   If you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up
   correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
   problem.

3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27].
   Go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest
   versions of the FAQ files there.

   FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers.  If you
   need help in using or getting started with FTP, send e-mail to
   mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with

      send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq

   in the body.

4. There are other sites which also carry news.answers postings.  The article
   "Introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these
   sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers.

5. If you don't have FTP, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu
   consisting of the following lines:

      send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources
      send usenet/alt.atheism/faq
      send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction
      send usenet/alt.atheism/logic
      send usenet/alt.atheism/resources

5. (Penultimate resort)  Send mail to mail-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of
   the following lines:

      send atheism/faq/faq.txt
      send atheism/faq/logic.txt
      send atheism/faq/intro.txt
      send atheism/faq/resource.txt

   and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files.
   There's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and
   "send atheism/index".

6. (Last resort)  Mail mathew@mantis.co.uk, or post an article to the
   newsgroup asking how you can get the FAQ files.  You should only do this
   if you've tried the above methods and they've failed; it's not nice to
   clutter the newsgroup or people's mailboxes with requests for files.
   it's better than posting without reading the FAQ, though!  For instance,
   people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don't have 
   FTP will probably need assistance obtaining the FAQ files.


mathew
ÿ

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Overview for New Readers
Summary Hi  Please read this before you post
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Thu 20 May 1993 105253 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930413094109mantiscouk
Lines 145

Archivename atheismoverview
Altatheismarchivename overview
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 12

                                   Overview

Welcome to altatheism and altatheismmoderated

This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups

Many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions misstatements or misconceptions and post
them to the net  In addition people often request information which has
been posted time and time again  In order to try and cut down on this the
altatheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles

   1  AltAtheism FAQ Overview for New Readers
   2  AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
   3  AltAtheism FAQ Frequently Asked Questions FAQ
   4  AltAtheism FAQ Constructing a Logical Argument
   5  AltAtheism FAQ Atheist Resources

This is article number 1  Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting  The
others are entirely optional

If you are new to Usenet you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
newsannouncenewusers  The articles titled A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet
and Hints on writing style for Usenet are particularly relevant  Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in newsnewusersquestions

If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above see the Finding
Stuff section below


                                   Credits

These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of altatheism and altatheismmoderated  In particular Id like to
thank the following people

kckcscmuedu Karl Kluge
perrydsinccom Jim Perry
NETOPRWAncsuvmccncsuedu Wayne Aiken
chpetkgdrbathacuk Toby Kelsey
jkpcsHUTFI Jyrki Kuoppala
geoffarnoldEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold
torkelsicsse Torkel Franzen
kmldorfutdallasedu George Kimeldorf
roe2quadsuchicagoedu Greg Roelofs
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee
madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson
dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
mayneopencsfsuedu William Mayne
ajrbigbirdhricom Andy Rosen
stoesseriraukade Achim Stoesser
bosullvnunix1tcdie Bryan OSullivan
lippardccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
s1b3832rigeltamuedu S Baum
ydobynsphoenixprincetonedu York H Dobyns
schroedesdscedu Wayne Schroeder
baldwincsserverausnanavymil JD Baldwin
D_NIBBYunhhunhedu Dana Nibby
dempseyKodakCOM Richard C Dempsey
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John David Munch
pdcdcsedacuk Paul Crowley
rzmipscomplangtuwienacat Richard Zach
tycchowmathmitedu Tim Chow
simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale

and countless others Ive forgotten

These articles are free  Truly free  You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish  However please send any changes or corrections to the
author and please do not repost copies of the articles to altatheism it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network


                                Finding Stuff

All of the FAQ files should be somewhere on your news system  Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you cant find them

1 Check the newsgroup altatheism  Look for subject lines starting with
   AltAtheism FAQ

2 Check the newsgroup newsanswers for the same subject lines

   If you dont find anything in steps 1 or 2 your news system isnt set up
   correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
   problem

3 If you have anonymous FTP access connect to rtfmmitedu [18172127]
   Go to the directory pubusenetaltatheism and youll find the latest
   versions of the FAQ files there

   FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers  If you
   need help in using or getting started with FTP send email to
   mailserverrtfmmitedu with

      send usenetnewsanswersftplistfaq

   in the body

4 There are other sites which also carry newsanswers postings  The article
   Introduction to the newsanswers newsgroup carries a list of these
   sites the article is posted regularly to newsanswers

5 If you dont have FTP send mail to mailserverrtfmmitedu
   consisting of the following lines

      send usenetnewsanswersfindingsources
      send usenetaltatheismfaq
      send usenetaltatheismintroduction
      send usenetaltatheismlogic
      send usenetaltatheismresources

5 Penultimate resort  Send mail to mailservermantiscouk consisting of
   the following lines

      send atheismfaqfaqtxt
      send atheismfaqlogictxt
      send atheismfaqintrotxt
      send atheismfaqresourcetxt

   and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files
   Theres other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and
   send atheismindex

6 Last resort  Mail mathewmantiscouk or post an article to the
   newsgroup asking how you can get the FAQ files  You should only do this
   if youve tried the above methods and theyve failed its not nice to
   clutter the newsgroup or peoples mailboxes with requests for files
   its better than posting without reading the FAQ though  For instance
   people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who dont have 
   FTP will probably need assistance obtaining the FAQ files


mathew


preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 15

In article <1ql667INN54a@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.

  Do I smell .sig material here?


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior

  Do I smell sig material here


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 33

In article <1993Apr21.210712.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>> So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>> U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 
>
>Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad? Directly I mean...

In fact, you probably want to avoid US Government anything for such a
project.  The pricetag is invariably too high, either in money or in
hassles.

The important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to
the Moon is getting into low Earth orbit.  Everything else is practically
down in the noise.  The only part of getting to the Moon that poses any
new problems, beyond what you face in low orbit, is the last 10km --
the actual landing -- and that is not immensely difficult.  Of course,
you *can* spend sagadollars (saga- is the metric prefix for beelyuns
and beelyuns) on things other than the launches, but you don't have to.

The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply (for
more than a brief visit, at least) is low-cost transport to Earth orbit.
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs, you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper.  (Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this, perhaps, but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit.)  Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way.

Given this, questions like whose launch facilities you use are *not* a
minor detail; they are very important to the cost of the launches, which
dominates the cost of the project.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 33

In article 1993Apr212107121auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
 US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 

Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad Directly I mean

In fact you probably want to avoid US Government anything for such a
project  The pricetag is invariably too high either in money or in
hassles

The important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to
the Moon is getting into low Earth orbit  Everything else is practically
down in the noise  The only part of getting to the Moon that poses any
new problems beyond what you face in low orbit is the last 10km 
the actual landing  and that is not immensely difficult  Of course
you can spend sagadollars saga is the metric prefix for beelyuns
and beelyuns on things other than the launches but you dont have to

The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply for
more than a brief visit at least is lowcost transport to Earth orbit
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper  Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit  Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way

Given this questions like whose launch facilities you use are not a
minor detail they are very important to the cost of the launches which
dominates the cost of the project
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 17

Gene Wright (gene@theporch.raider.net) wrote:
: Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
: who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
: Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
: to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!

I'm an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work, and I
throw around the $1 billion figure for that "reward."  I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about $3 billion.

This would encourage private industry to invest in space, which 
should be one of NASA's primary goals.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

     "Better.  Faster.  Cheaper." -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator

after prepro  From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office 
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 17

Gene Wright genetheporchraidernet wrote
 Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
 who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
 Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
 to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then

Im an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work and I
throw around the 1 billion figure for that reward  I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about 3 billion

This would encourage private industry to invest in space which 
should be one of NASAs primary goals

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

     Better  Faster  Cheaper  Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?

Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
blame the tiger?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  writes

As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist

Not so  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger

keith

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Event in Los Angeles, CA
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 52

   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact:  OASIS (310) 364-2290

   15 April 1993                                Los Angeles, CA

     LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY L.A.
  ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD

   On April 21, the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National 
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System (LPS) co-
inventor and vice-president of the LPS Coalition, Dr. Robert D.
Waldron.  It will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks, CA.

   Dr. Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey, California.  He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement.  He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization.  Along with Dr. David
Criswell, Waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept.

   Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal
experts, and Soviet and U.S. scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System, a pollution-free, energy source with a
potential to power the globe.

   For the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half
from California, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon.

   The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae.  A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean, sustainable power to meet the Earth's ever
increasing demand using proven, basic technology.

   OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization) is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society, which is an international non-profit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier.
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard, CA.

       WHERE:  Rockwell Science Center Auditorium, 1049 Camino
               Dos Rios, Thousand Oaks, CA.

   DIRECTIONS: Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks, exit onto
               Lynn Road heading North (right turn from 101
               North, Left turn from 101 South), after about 1/2
               mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios, after about 1/2
               mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
               Colindo, Parking at Top of Hill to the Left


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Event in Los Angeles CA
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 52

   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact  OASIS 310 3642290

   15 April 1993                                Los Angeles CA

     LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY LA
  ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD

   On April 21 the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National 
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System LPS co
inventor and vicepresident of the LPS Coalition Dr Robert D
Waldron  It will be held at 730 pm at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks CA

   Dr Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey California  He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement  He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization  Along with Dr David
Criswell Waldron invented the lunarsolar power system concept

   Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal
experts and Soviet and US scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System a pollutionfree energy source with a
potential to power the globe

   For the past three years members of the coalition nearly half
from California have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon

   The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae  A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean sustainable power to meet the Earths ever
increasing demand using proven basic technology

   OASIS Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society which is an international nonprofit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard CA

       WHERE  Rockwell Science Center Auditorium 1049 Camino
               Dos Rios Thousand Oaks CA

   DIRECTIONS Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks exit onto
               Lynn Road heading North right turn from 101
               North Left turn from 101 South after about 12
               mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios after about 12
               mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
               Colindo Parking at Top of Hill to the Left


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <114127@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|> 
|> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic 
|> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
|> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
|> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
|> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
|> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
|> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
|> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.

Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts, people temporarily become atheists?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization sgi
Lines 15
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
 I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic 
 principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
 that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
 so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
 be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
 to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
 Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
 than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts

Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts people temporarily become atheists

jon

preprocess doc  Subject: help for school
From: mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 14

I am a newbie to the net, and I am trying to get some information for a paper
I am working on to get back into college.  If anyone can send me data on
Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora  for the past thirty years it would be
a big help.  Or, if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric
current, surge bafflers power companies use, or other effects sporatic aurora
have on the Earth's magnetic field, I'd be eternally gratefull.  Please send 
anything interesting to me at
        Marty Crandall-Grela
        Van Vleck Observatory
        Wesleyan University
        Middletown,Ct 06487
 or e-mail it to me at mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu
 Thank-you in advance,      Marty


after prepro  Subject help for school
From mcrandalleaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 14

I am a newbie to the net and I am trying to get some information for a paper
I am working on to get back into college  If anyone can send me data on
Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora  for the past thirty years it would be
a big help  Or if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric
current surge bafflers power companies use or other effects sporatic aurora
have on the Earths magnetic field Id be eternally gratefull  Please send 
anything interesting to me at
        Marty CrandallGrela
        Van Vleck Observatory
        Wesleyan University
        MiddletownCt 06487
 or email it to me at mcrandalleaglewesleyanedu
 Thankyou in advance      Marty


preprocess doc  From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Lines: 54
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

Umar Khan (khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil) wrote:
>I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND
>SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille, a French surgeon.  It is not comprehensive,

>  He was unable
>to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Qur'an, but,
>what he did find made sense with modern understanding.  So, he
>investigated the Traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to
>say about science.  they were filled with science problems; after
>all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by
>pour standards, a primitive world view.  His conclusion was that,
>while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
>say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
>Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
>the Traditions.  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?  

This book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue.


The book is in two sections.  Section 1 contains a fairly reasonable
analysis of the Bible, showing many inconsistencies between the Bible
and modern science.  Well we all know that, no surprises.

Section 2 analyses the Koran's version of the Old Testament stories,
and seems, on the face of it, to present a good case showing the Koran
is consistent with modern science.  However, it was plain to me, that
this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the
Koran.  Take the flood, for example, the bible is full of detail,
("forty days and forty nights", "pair of every animal", etc.), we all
know this is nonsense.  The Koran's description of the same event is
so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as "A big river 
flooded for a few days and caused much damage".  Yes, no contradiction
but also not much fact.

The Koran might be consistent with modern science, but being
consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that
time, does not seem much of an achievement.

The book concludes by saying something like, the Koran must have had
divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot
of (to us now) ridiculous ideas about the universe, and none of them
can be found in the Koran!  Arguing for the greatness of a book by
talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme.

The above is, of course, from memory so I may have missed some points.



-- 

Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk

after prepro  From LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
Organization University of Bradford UK
Lines 54
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]

Umar Khan khanitditdnrlnavymil wrote
I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE THE QURAN AND
SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille a French surgeon  It is not comprehensive

  He was unable
to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Quran but
what he did find made sense with modern understanding  So he
investigated the Traditions the hadith to see what they had to
say about science  they were filled with science problems after
all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by
pour standards a primitive world view  His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it  

This book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue


The book is in two sections  Section 1 contains a fairly reasonable
analysis of the Bible showing many inconsistencies between the Bible
and modern science  Well we all know that no surprises

Section 2 analyses the Korans version of the Old Testament stories
and seems on the face of it to present a good case showing the Koran
is consistent with modern science  However it was plain to me that
this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the
Koran  Take the flood for example the bible is full of detail
forty days and forty nights pair of every animal etc we all
know this is nonsense  The Korans description of the same event is
so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as A big river 
flooded for a few days and caused much damage  Yes no contradiction
but also not much fact

The Koran might be consistent with modern science but being
consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that
time does not seem much of an achievement

The book concludes by saying something like the Koran must have had
divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot
of to us now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none of them
can be found in the Koran  Arguing for the greatness of a book by
talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme

The above is of course from memory so I may have missed some points



 

Leonard               email  LNewnhambradfordacuk

preprocess doc  From: jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu (Joe Vigneau)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
In-Reply-To: bevans@carina.unm.edu's message of 4 Apr 1993 12:19:20 GMT
Organization: -
	<1993Apr3.214557.24073@midway.uchicago.edu> <1pmjo8INN2l0@lynx.unm.edu>
Lines: 21

In article <1pmjo8INN2l0@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:

   Just what do gay people do that straight people don't?

Absolutely nothing.

I'm a VERY straight(as an arrow), 17-year old male that is involved in the BSA.

I don't care what gay people do among each other, as long as they don't make
passes at me or anything.  At my summer camp where I work, my boss is gay.
Not in a 'pansy' way of gay (I know a few), but just 'one of the guys'.
He doesn't push anything on me, and we give him the same respect back, due
to his position.

If anything, the BSA has taught me, I don't know, tolerance or something.
Before I met this guy, I thought all gays were 'faries'.  So, the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot.

Basically, It comes down to this: What you do among yourself is your own
business. No one else has the right to tell you otherwise, unless it
violates someone else's civil rights.

after prepro  From jvigneaucsulowelledu Joe Vigneau
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
InReplyTo bevanscarinaunmedus message of 4 Apr 1993 121920 GMT
Organization 
	1993Apr321455724073midwayuchicagoedu 1pmjo8INN2l0lynxunmedu
Lines 21

In article 1pmjo8INN2l0lynxunmedu bevanscarinaunmedu Mathemagician writes

   Just what do gay people do that straight people dont

Absolutely nothing

Im a VERY straightas an arrow 17year old male that is involved in the BSA

I dont care what gay people do among each other as long as they dont make
passes at me or anything  At my summer camp where I work my boss is gay
Not in a pansy way of gay I know a few but just one of the guys
He doesnt push anything on me and we give him the same respect back due
to his position

If anything the BSA has taught me I dont know tolerance or something
Before I met this guy I thought all gays were faries  So the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot

Basically It comes down to this What you do among yourself is your own
business No one else has the right to tell you otherwise unless it
violates someone elses civil rights

preprocess doc  From: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Reply-To: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines: 13
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)

In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net>, prb@access (Pat) writes:
>Voyager  has the unusual  luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
>solar system.   All it's doing is collecting  fields  data,  and routinely
>squirting it down.  One of the mariners is also in stable
>solar orbit,  and still providing similiar  solar data.  

There are no Mariner craft from which we are still receiving data.  I believe
you are referring to one or more of Pioneers 6 through 9 (launched from
December 1965 through November 1968), which were put into solar orbits to study
interplanetary space.  I recall reading that at least one of them was still
functioning 25 years after launch.
--
Chris Jones    clj@ksr.com

after prepro  From cljksrcom Chris Jones
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ReplyTo cljksrcom Chris Jones
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 13
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcom Pat

In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccess Pat writes
Voyager  has the unusual  luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system   All its doing is collecting  fields  data  and routinely
squirting it down  One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit  and still providing similiar  solar data  

There are no Mariner craft from which we are still receiving data  I believe
you are referring to one or more of Pioneers 6 through 9 launched from
December 1965 through November 1968 which were put into solar orbits to study
interplanetary space  I recall reading that at least one of them was still
functioning 25 years after launch

Chris Jones    cljksrcom

preprocess doc  From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters.  WHere  are they.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: achates.mit.edu


If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the
galaxy be expected?  How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays?

How much energy does a burster put out?  I know energy depends on
distance, which is unknown.  An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK.


--
    John Carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu)

after prepro  From jfcathenamitedu John F Carr
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters  WHere  are they
Organization Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost achatesmitedu


If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the
galaxy be expected  How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays

How much energy does a burster put out  I know energy depends on
distance which is unknown  An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK



    John Carr jfcathenamitedu

preprocess doc  From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 80
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com

(References: deleted to move this to a new thread)

In article <114133@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <1phkf7INN86p@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:

>>}Rushdie is, however, as I understand, a muslim.
>>}The fact that he's a British citizen does not preclude his being muslim.
>
>>Rushdie was an atheist (to use local terminology, not to put words in
>>his mouth) at the time of writing TSV and at the time of the fatwa in
>>February 1989.[...]
>
>Well, if he was born muslim (I am fairly certain he was) then he _is_ 
>muslim until he explicitly renounces Islam. So far as I know he has never
>explicitly renounced Islam, though he may have been in extreme doubt
>about the existence of God. Being muslim is a legal as well as
>intellectual issue, according to Islam.

"To put it as simply as possible: *I am not a Muslim*.[...] I do not
 accept the charge of apostacy, because I have never in my adult life
 affirmed any belief, and what one has not affirmed one can not be
 said to have apostasized from.  The Islam I know states clearly that
 'there can be no coercion in matters of religion'.  The many Muslims
 I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
 faith *purely by virtue of birth*, and that a person who freely chose
 not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In Good Faith", 1990

"God, Satan, Paradise, and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
 year, when I quite abruptly lost my faith.  [...]and afterwards, to
 prove my new-found atheism, I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
 sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
 the swine.  No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] From that
 day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person."
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie, "In God We Trust", 1985
 
>>[I] think the Rushdie affair has discredited Islam more in my eyes than
>>Khomeini -- I know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all
>>religions, but even apparently "moderate" Muslims have participated or
>>refused to distance themselves from the witch-hunt against Rushdie.
>
>Yes, I think this is true, but there Khomenei's motivations are quite
>irrelevant to the issue. The fact of the matter is that Rushdie made
>false statements (fiction, I know, but where is the line between fact
>and fiction?) about the life of Mohammad. 

Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing.  I'll accept it
(reluctantly) from mobs in Pakistan, but not from you.  What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad.  What's worse, the novel doesn't present the
Mahound/Mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam; in particular, there is no "lewd" misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives.

>That is why
>few people rush to his defense -- he's considered an absolute fool for 
>his writings in _The Satanic Verses_. 

Don't hold back; he's considered an apostate and a blasphemer.
However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book.  I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
has convinced me that they have read the book.  Some have initially
claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book.

>If you wish to understand the
>reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of "the
>satanic verses" [...] see the
>Penguin paperback by Rafiq Zakariyah called _Mohammad and the Quran_.

I'll keep an eye out for it.  I have a counter-proposal: I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_.  Perhaps then you'll understand.
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

after prepro  From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 80
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom

References deleted to move this to a new thread

In article 114133buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1phkf7INN86pdsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes

Rushdie is however as I understand a muslim
The fact that hes a British citizen does not preclude his being muslim

Rushdie was an atheist to use local terminology not to put words in
his mouth at the time of writing TSV and at the time of the fatwa in
February 1989[]

Well if he was born muslim I am fairly certain he was then he _is_ 
muslim until he explicitly renounces Islam So far as I know he has never
explicitly renounced Islam though he may have been in extreme doubt
about the existence of God Being muslim is a legal as well as
intellectual issue according to Islam

To put it as simply as possible I am not a Muslim[] I do not
 accept the charge of apostacy because I have never in my adult life
 affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not be
 said to have apostasized from  The Islam I know states clearly that
 there can be no coercion in matters of religion  The many Muslims
 I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
 faith purely by virtue of birth and that a person who freely chose
 not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie In Good Faith 1990

God Satan Paradise and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
 year when I quite abruptly lost my faith  []and afterwards to
 prove my newfound atheism I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
 sandwich and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
 the swine  No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down [] From that
 day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person
    	    	    	    	Salman Rushdie In God We Trust 1985
 
[I] think the Rushdie affair has discredited Islam more in my eyes than
Khomeini  I know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all
religions but even apparently moderate Muslims have participated or
refused to distance themselves from the witchhunt against Rushdie

Yes I think this is true but there Khomeneis motivations are quite
irrelevant to the issue The fact of the matter is that Rushdie made
false statements fiction I know but where is the line between fact
and fiction about the life of Mohammad 

Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing  Ill accept it
reluctantly from mobs in Pakistan but not from you  What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad  Whats worse the novel doesnt present the
MahoundMohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam in particular there is no lewd misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives

That is why
few people rush to his defense  hes considered an absolute fool for 
his writings in _The Satanic Verses_ 

Dont hold back hes considered an apostate and a blasphemer
However its not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_ but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book  I have yet to find one single muslim who
has convinced me that they have read the book  Some have initially
claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book

If you wish to understand the
reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of the
satanic verses [] see the
Penguin paperback by Rafiq Zakariyah called _Mohammad and the Quran_

Ill keep an eye out for it  I have a counterproposal I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_  Perhaps then youll understand
 
Jim Perry   perrydsinccom   Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions  For a nominal fee they can be yours

preprocess doc  From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 160
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: judy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes...
>In article <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:
> 
>>I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
>>line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
>>wrap at this university. 
> 
>Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
>of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and
>non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much
>of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors.
>The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and
>even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL
>charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA
>commercialization centers; they charge a fee.
> 

You totally forgot the original post that you posted Allen. In that post
you stated that the "wrap" was on top of and in addition to any overhead.
Geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true.

>Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack
>experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand
>the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack
>of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
>is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't
>a flame, jsut a statement.

Come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing
what and who is working on integration. This is simply an ad hominum
attack and you know it.

> 
>Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do.
>

Of course there is a fee. It is for administration. Geez Allen any
organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in  legitimate
costs, such as libraries and other things that must be there to support
a program and "wrap" as you originally stated it.You stated that wrap
was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you
say is not true. Which is it Allen?

>>>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>>>costing people how much fee they add to a project.
> 
>>I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
>>any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.
> 
>Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in
>their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
>change depending on the customer.
>

As you have posted on this subject Allen, you state that wrap is over and
above overhead and is a seperate charge. You admit here that this is wrong.
Nasa has a line item budget every year. I have seen it Allen. Get some
numbers from that detailed NASA budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then
howl to high heaven about it. Until you do that you are barking in the wind.

>>No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
>>of the Overhead capital of NASA. 
> 
>Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead.
> 
>>Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
>>better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on.
>

Integration could be done better at the centers. Apollo integration was 
done here at Msfc and that did not turn out so bad. The philosophy of
Reston is totally wrong Allen. There you have a bunch of people who are
completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee. There
is no way that will ever work. It has never worked in any large scale project
that it was ever tried on. Could you imagine a Reston like set up for 
Apollo?

>Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When
>WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where
>doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the
>only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
>problems and building a station.
>

Oh you are full of it Allen on this one. I agree that JSC screwed up big.
They should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it
replaced. To make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your
bias goes. Come to MSFC for a couple of weeks and you will find out just
how wrong you really are. Maybe not, people like you believe exactly what
they want to believe no matter  what the facts are contrary to it. 

>>Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
>>at a place where everything is overhead.
> 
>When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that
>integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part
>of a successful large scale effort.
>

I agree that integration is the single most important part of a  successful
large scale effort. What I completly disagree with is seperating that
integration function from  the people that are doing the work. It is called
leadership Allen. That is what made Apollo work. Final responsibility for
the success of Apollo was held by less than 50 people. That is leadership
and responsibility. There is neither when you have any organization set up
as Reston is. You could take the same people and move them to JSC or MSFC
and they could do a much better job. Why did it take a year for Reston to
finally say something about the problem? If they were on site and part of the
process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place.

There is one heck of a lot I do not know Allen, but one thing I do know is that
for a project to be successful you must have leadership. I remember all of the
turn over at Reston that kept SSF program in shambles for years do you? It is
lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem. Lack of
leadership from the White House, Congress and at Reston. Nasa is only a
symptom of a greater national problem. You are so narrowly focused in your
efforts that you do not see this.

>>Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
>>demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being 
>>selective with the facts again.
> 
>The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
>Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers
>you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address
>the problems until the press published the story.
> 
>Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
>the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns?
>

No, I am saying that if they were located at JSC it never would have 
happened in the first place.

>>If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
>>of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
>>"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
>>for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a 
>>blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.
> 
>You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for
>resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying
>is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport.
> 
>>Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
>>to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
>>do so.
> 
>I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
>Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed.
> 
I have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is
at reston was on site at JSC the problem never would have happened, totally
ignoring the lack of leadership of congress. This many headed hydra that
has grown up at NASA is the true problem of the Agency and to try to 
change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of
your position.

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville


after prepro  From wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization University of Houston
Lines 160
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost judyuhedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 17APR199316423628judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes
 
I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university 
 
Dennis I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of  Customers included government including NASA for profit and
nonprofit companies All expected a wrap usually called a fee Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors
The subcontractors where universities forprofits nonprofits and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space ALL
charged fees as part of the work Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers they charge a fee
 

You totally forgot the original post that you posted Allen In that post
you stated that the wrap was on top of and in addition to any overhead
Geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true

Now Im sure your a competent engineer Dennis but you clearly lack
experience in several areas Your posts show that you dont understand
the importance of integration in large projects You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything This isnt
a flame jsut a statement

Come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing
what and who is working on integration This is simply an ad hominum
attack and you know it

 
Your employer DOES charge a fee You may not see it but you do


Of course there is a fee It is for administration Geez Allen any
organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in  legitimate
costs such as libraries and other things that must be there to support
a program and wrap as you originally stated itYou stated that wrap
was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you
say is not true Which is it Allen

Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project
 
I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead
 
Well there you are Dennis As I said they simply include the fee in
their overhead Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer


As you have posted on this subject Allen you state that wrap is over and
above overhead and is a seperate charge You admit here that this is wrong
Nasa has a line item budget every year I have seen it Allen Get some
numbers from that detailed NASA budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then
howl to high heaven about it Until you do that you are barking in the wind

No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA 
 
Integration Dennis isnt overhead
 
Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on


Integration could be done better at the centers Apollo integration was 
done here at Msfc and that did not turn out so bad The philosophy of
Reston is totally wrong Allen There you have a bunch of people who are
completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee There
is no way that will ever work It has never worked in any large scale project
that it was ever tried on Could you imagine a Reston like set up for 
Apollo

Dennis Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion  the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station


Oh you are full of it Allen on this one I agree that JSC screwed up big
They should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it
replaced To make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your
bias goes Come to MSFC for a couple of weeks and you will find out just
how wrong you really are Maybe not people like you believe exactly what
they want to believe no matter  what the facts are contrary to it 

Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead
 
When you have a bit more experience Dennis you will realize that
integration isnt overhead It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort


I agree that integration is the single most important part of a  successful
large scale effort What I completly disagree with is seperating that
integration function from  the people that are doing the work It is called
leadership Allen That is what made Apollo work Final responsibility for
the success of Apollo was held by less than 50 people That is leadership
and responsibility There is neither when you have any organization set up
as Reston is You could take the same people and move them to JSC or MSFC
and they could do a much better job Why did it take a year for Reston to
finally say something about the problem If they were on site and part of the
process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place

There is one heck of a lot I do not know Allen but one thing I do know is that
for a project to be successful you must have leadership I remember all of the
turn over at Reston that kept SSF program in shambles for years do you It is
lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem Lack of
leadership from the White House Congress and at Reston Nasa is only a
symptom of a greater national problem You are so narrowly focused in your
efforts that you do not see this

Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being 
selective with the facts again
 
The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress Suprise suprise The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldnt address
the problems until the press published the story
 
Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns


No I am saying that if they were located at JSC it never would have 
happened in the first place

If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a 
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see
 
You should know Dennis that NASA doesnt include transport costs for
resuply That comes from the Shuttle budget What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport
 
Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so
 
I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed
 
I have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is
at reston was on site at JSC the problem never would have happened totally
ignoring the lack of leadership of congress This many headed hydra that
has grown up at NASA is the true problem of the Agency and to try to 
change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of
your position

Dennis University of Alabama in Huntsville


preprocess doc  From: pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker)
Subject: Re: Rawlins debunks creationism
Organization: I didn't do it, nobody saw me, you can't prove a thing.
Lines: 30

In article <1993Apr15.223844.16453@rambo.atlanta.dg.com>,
wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins) wrote:
> 
>     We are talking about origins, not merely science.   Science cannot
>     explain origins.  For a person to exclude anything but science from
>     the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth
>     than science.  This is a false premise.

Says who? Other than a hear-say god.

>     By the way, I enjoy science.

You sure don't understand it.

>     It is truly a wonder observing God's creation.  Macroevolution is
>     a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed
>     within three percent error :) ]

Bill, I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit I've seen in a whils. I'm afraid there's not a bit of religion in
macroevolution, and you've made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins; to a large extent, it already has!

>             //  Bill Rawlins            <wpr@atlanta.dg.com>        //

Peter W. Walker          "Yu, shall I tell you what knowledge is? When 
Dept. of Space Physics    you know a thing, say that you know it. When 
   and Astronomy          you do not know a thing, admit you do not know
Rice University           it. This is knowledge."
Houston, TX                     - K'ung-fu Tzu

after prepro  From pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker
Subject Re Rawlins debunks creationism
Organization I didnt do it nobody saw me you cant prove a thing
Lines 30

In article 1993Apr1522384416453ramboatlantadgcom
wpratlantadgcom Bill Rawlins wrote
 
     We are talking about origins not merely science   Science cannot
     explain origins  For a person to exclude anything but science from
     the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth
     than science  This is a false premise

Says who Other than a hearsay god

     By the way I enjoy science

You sure dont understand it

     It is truly a wonder observing Gods creation  Macroevolution is
     a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed
     within three percent error  ]

Bill I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit Ive seen in a whils Im afraid theres not a bit of religion in
macroevolution and youve made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins to a large extent it already has

               Bill Rawlins                    

Peter W Walker          Yu shall I tell you what knowledge is When 
Dept of Space Physics    you know a thing say that you know it When 
   and Astronomy          you do not know a thing admit you do not know
Rice University           it This is knowledge
Houston TX                      Kungfu Tzu

preprocess doc  From: chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au

jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:

>My syllogism is of the form:
>A is B.
>C is A.
>Therefore C is B.

>This is a logically valid construction.

>Your syllogism, however, is of the form:
>A is B.
>C is B.
>Therefore C is A.

>Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction, 
>and your comments don't apply.

>I appeal to Mathew (Mantis) here who wrote the excellent
>post (now part of the FAQ) on logical argument.

>Jim B.

I am not Mathew (Mantis) but any (successful) first year logic student will see that you are logically correct, the other poster is logically incorrect.

--
"I know" is nothing more than "I believe" with pretentions.

after prepro  From chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines 26
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost baarnietafesaeduau

jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes

My syllogism is of the form
A is B
C is A
Therefore C is B

This is a logically valid construction

Your syllogism however is of the form
A is B
C is B
Therefore C is A

Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction 
and your comments dont apply

I appeal to Mathew Mantis here who wrote the excellent
post now part of the FAQ on logical argument

Jim B

I am not Mathew Mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster is logically incorrect


I know is nothing more than I believe with pretentions

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>>How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
>>>default?  ...  Where's the cutoff point? 
>>I don't know where the exact cutoff is, but it is at least after a few
>>years, and surely after 40 years.
>Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
>in population makeup?     

Specifically, which changes are you talking about?  Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
default    Wheres the cutoff point 
I dont know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few
years and surely after 40 years
Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
in population makeup     

Specifically which changes are you talking about  Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago

keith

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15

In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> goltz@mimi.UU.NET (James P. Goltz) writes:
>  Would this work?  I can't see the EM radiation impelling very much
>momentum (especially given the mass of the pusher plate), and it seems
>to me you're going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
>out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
>they're there.

The Orion concept as actually proposed (as opposed to the way it has been
somewhat misrepresented in some fiction) included wrapping a thick layer
of reaction mass -- probably plastic of some sort -- around each bomb.
The bomb vaporizes the reaction mass, and it's that which transfers
momentum to the pusher plate.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15

In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET goltzmimiUUNET James P Goltz writes
  Would this work  I cant see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems
to me youre going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
theyre there

The Orion concept as actually proposed as opposed to the way it has been
somewhat misrepresented in some fiction included wrapping a thick layer
of reaction mass  probably plastic of some sort  around each bomb
The bomb vaporizes the reaction mass and its that which transfers
momentum to the pusher plate
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: wawers@lif.de (Theo Wawers)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Lahmeyer International, Frankfurt
Lines: 15
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]


There is a nice little tool in Lucid emacs. It's called "calendar".
On request it shows for given longitude/latitude coordinates times for
sunset and sunrise. The code is written in lisp.
I don't know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to
calculate these things.


Theo W.

Theo Wawers                                  LAHMEYER INTERNATIONAL GMBH
email : wawers@sunny.lif.de                  Lyonerstr. 22
phone : +49 69 66 77 639                     D-6000 Frankfurt/Main
fax   : +49 69 66 77 571                     Germany


after prepro  From wawerslifde Theo Wawers
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Lahmeyer International Frankfurt
Lines 15
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]


There is a nice little tool in Lucid emacs Its called calendar
On request it shows for given longitudelatitude coordinates times for
sunset and sunrise The code is written in lisp
I dont know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to
calculate these things


Theo W

Theo Wawers                                  LAHMEYER INTERNATIONAL GMBH
email  wawerssunnylifde                  Lyonerstr 22
phone  49 69 66 77 639                     D6000 FrankfurtMain
fax    49 69 66 77 571                     Germany


preprocess doc  From: C.H.A.Wong@bradford.ac.uk (CHA WONG)
Subject: How can you see the launch of the Space Shuttle ?
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Lines: 28
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]


Sorry for asking a question that's not entirely based on the
technical aspects of space, but I couldn't find the
answer on the FAQs !

I'm currently in the UK, which makes seeing a Space Shuttle
launch a little difficult.....

However, I have been selected to be an exchange student
at Louisiana State Uni. from August, and I am absolutely
determined to get to see a Space Shuttle launch sometime
during the year at which I will be in America.

I hear there's a bit of a long mailing list, so if someone
can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from, then
please E-mail me !

Thanks very much for your patience....

(And if anyone else wants to know, tell me and I'll summarize
for you - just to save all those poor people who have to
pay for their links !)
-- 
===============================    April is the cruellest month
Andrew Wong                    \   Mixing memory and desire
-----x-----                     \
E-mail:C.H.A.Wong@bradford.ac.uk \ T.S.Eliot - The Wasteland 1918

after prepro  From CHAWongbradfordacuk CHA WONG
Subject How can you see the launch of the Space Shuttle 
Organization University of Bradford UK
Lines 28
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]


Sorry for asking a question thats not entirely based on the
technical aspects of space but I couldnt find the
answer on the FAQs 

Im currently in the UK which makes seeing a Space Shuttle
launch a little difficult

However I have been selected to be an exchange student
at Louisiana State Uni from August and I am absolutely
determined to get to see a Space Shuttle launch sometime
during the year at which I will be in America

I hear theres a bit of a long mailing list so if someone
can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from then
please Email me 

Thanks very much for your patience

And if anyone else wants to know tell me and Ill summarize
for you  just to save all those poor people who have to
pay for their links 
 
    April is the cruellest month
Andrew Wong                    \   Mixing memory and desire
x                     \
EmailCHAWongbradfordacuk \ TSEliot  The Wasteland 1918

preprocess doc  From: cjhs@minster.york.ac.uk
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: world
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
Lines: 11

: Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve, and that all
: humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings.?  Then who
: were Cain and Able's wives?  Couldn't be their sisters, because A&E
: didn't have daughters.  Were they non-humans?

Genesis 5:4

and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years, and
he begat sons and daughters:

Felicitations -- Chris Ho-Stuart

after prepro  From cjhsminsteryorkacuk
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution world
Organization Department of Computer Science University of York England
Lines 11

 Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve and that all
 humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings  Then who
 were Cain and Ables wives  Couldnt be their sisters because AE
 didnt have daughters  Were they nonhumans

Genesis 54

and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years and
he begat sons and daughters

Felicitations  Chris HoStuart

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: HST



SOmebody mentioned  a re-boost of HST during this mission,  meaning
that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission.

How will said re-boost be done?

Grapple, HST,  stow it in Cargo bay,  do OMS burn to high altitude,  

unstow  HST,   repair  gyros,  costar install,  fix solar arrays,

then return to earth?

My guess is  why  bother with  usingthe shuttle to reboost?

why not  grapple,  do all said fixes,   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
thruster module  to  HST,   then let it make the re-boost.  it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug.   that way, now that
they are going to need at least 5  spacewalks,  then they can carry
an EDO pallet,  and  sit on station and even  maybe do the  solar array
tilt  motor  fix.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords HST



SOmebody mentioned  a reboost of HST during this mission  meaning
that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission

How will said reboost be done

Grapple HST  stow it in Cargo bay  do OMS burn to high altitude  

unstow  HST   repair  gyros  costar install  fix solar arrays

then return to earth

My guess is  why  bother with  usingthe shuttle to reboost

why not  grapple  do all said fixes   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
thruster module  to  HST   then let it make the reboost  it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug   that way now that
they are going to need at least 5  spacewalks  then they can carry
an EDO pallet  and  sit on station and even  maybe do the  solar array
tilt  motor  fix

pat

preprocess doc  From: pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Nntp-Posting-Host: extro.ucc.su.oz.au
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Lines: 25

jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
>head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
>determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
>Moon).  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
>upon whether the Soviets tried to go.  Setting up a lunar base
>would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
>that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
>of going to Mars (at least in the short run).  Thus we would
>have concentrated on the moon.

Great speculation - I remember being proud on behalf of all the free
world (you think that way when you are seven years old) that we had
got there first. Now I'm almost sorry that it worked out that way.

I guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too, and
would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that
overtook the US program. Perhaps stretching to match US efforts would
have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact - and in the tradition
of Marvel Comics 'What If', this destabilization in the Brezhnev era might
have triggered the third world war. Hmm, maybe it was a giant leap after all.

-- 
Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au          |         Accept Everything.            |
UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete |         Reject Nothing.               |

after prepro  From peteextrouccsuOZAU Peter Alexander Merel
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
NntpPostingHost extrouccsuozau
Organization Sydney University Computing Service Sydney NSW Australia
Lines 25

jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go  Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run  Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon

Great speculation  I remember being proud on behalf of all the free
world you think that way when you are seven years old that we had
got there first Now Im almost sorry that it worked out that way

I guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too and
would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that
overtook the US program Perhaps stretching to match US efforts would
have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact  and in the tradition
of Marvel Comics What If this destabilization in the Brezhnev era might
have triggered the third world war Hmm maybe it was a giant leap after all

 
Internet peteextrosuozau                   Accept Everything            
UUCP uunetmcvaxmunnariextropete          Reject Nothing               

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
 t> <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu><1pnuke$idn@access.digex.net> 
 <SHAFER.93Apr4200752@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov><pgf.734062799@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
In-Reply-To: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu's message of Tue, 6 Apr 1993 02:19:59 GMT
Lines: 64

On Tue, 6 Apr 1993 02:19:59 GMT, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) said:

Phil> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:

>On 4 Apr 1993 20:31:10 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:

>Pat> In article <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu> Pat>
>nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >Question is can someone give me 10
>examples of direct NASA/Space related >research that helped humanity
>in general? It will be interesting to see..

>Pat> TANG :-) Mylar I think.  I think they also pushed Hi Tech Pat>
>Composites for airframes.  Look at Fly by Wire.

>Swept wings--if you fly in airliners you've reaped the benefits.

Phil> Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these?  I also think
Phil> the germans did some work on these in WWII.

The NACA came up with them before World War II.  NASA is directly
descended from the NACA, with space added in.

You'll notice that I didn't mention sweep wings even though the
X-5, tested at what's now Dryden, had them.  We did steal that one
dirctly from the Germans.  The difference is that swept wings don't
change their angle of sweep, sweep wings do.  Perhaps the similarity
of names has caused some confusion?  747s have swept wings, F-111s
have sweep wings.

>Winglets.  Area ruling.  Digital fly by wire.  Ride smoothing.

Phil> A lot of this was also done by the military...

After NASA aerodynamicists proposed them and NASA test teams
demonstrated them.  Richard Whitcomb and R.T. Jones, at Langley
Research Center, were giants in the field.

Dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area
ruling (in the 70s and 50s, respectively).  It's true that we
used military aircraft as the testbeds (KC-135 and YF-102) but
that had more to do with availability and need than with military
involvement.  The YF-102 was completely ours and the KC-135 was
bailed to us.  The Air Force, of course, was interested in our
results and supportive of our efforts.

Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. No
mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were.
General Dynamics decided to make the F-16 flyby-wire when they saw how
successful we were.  (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)

Phil> Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!  

The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing.  On the other
hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
can't do.


--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

after prepro  Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
 t 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu1pnukeidnaccessdigexnet 
 
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
InReplyTo pgfsrl03cacsusledus message of Tue 6 Apr 1993 021959 GMT
Lines 64

On Tue 6 Apr 1993 021959 GMT pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering said

Phil shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes

On 4 Apr 1993 203110 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said

Pat In article 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu Pat
nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes Question is can someone give me 10
examples of direct NASASpace related research that helped humanity
in general It will be interesting to see

Pat TANG  Mylar I think  I think they also pushed Hi Tech Pat
Composites for airframes  Look at Fly by Wire

Swept wingsif you fly in airliners youve reaped the benefits

Phil Didnt one of the early jet fighters have these  I also think
Phil the germans did some work on these in WWII

The NACA came up with them before World War II  NASA is directly
descended from the NACA with space added in

Youll notice that I didnt mention sweep wings even though the
X5 tested at whats now Dryden had them  We did steal that one
dirctly from the Germans  The difference is that swept wings dont
change their angle of sweep sweep wings do  Perhaps the similarity
of names has caused some confusion  747s have swept wings F111s
have sweep wings

Winglets  Area ruling  Digital fly by wire  Ride smoothing

Phil A lot of this was also done by the military

After NASA aerodynamicists proposed them and NASA test teams
demonstrated them  Richard Whitcomb and RT Jones at Langley
Research Center were giants in the field

Dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area
ruling in the 70s and 50s respectively  Its true that we
used military aircraft as the testbeds KC135 and YF102 but
that had more to do with availability and need than with military
involvement  The YF102 was completely ours and the KC135 was
bailed to us  The Air Force of course was interested in our
results and supportive of our efforts

Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s No
mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were
General Dynamics decided to make the F16 flybywire when they saw how
successful we were  Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog

Phil Egad Im disagreeing with Mary Shafer  

The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing  On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do



Mary Shafer  DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov                    Of course I dont speak for NASA
 A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all  Unknown US fighter pilot

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 120

In <16BA7103C3.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.091258.11830@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
> 
>(Deletion)
>>>>Of course people say what they think to be the religion, and that this
>>>>is not exactly the same coming from different people within the
>>>>religion.  There is nothing with there existing different perspectives
>>>>within the religion -- perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on
>>>>the truth.
>>
>>>My point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime.
>>>
>>>And that they converge is counterfactual, religions appear to split and
>>>diverge. Even when there might be a 'True Religion' at the core, the layers
>>>above determine what happens in practise, and they are quite inhumane
>>>usually.
>>>
> 
>What you post then is supposed to be an answer, but I don't see what is has
>got to do with what I say.
> 
>I will repeat it. Religions as are harm people. And religions don't
>converge, they split. Giving more to disagree upon. And there is a lot
>of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be
>tolerant at all.

Ideologies also split, giving more to disagree upon, and may also lead
to intolerance.  So do you also oppose all ideologies?

I don't think your argument is an argument against religion at all, but
just points out the weaknesses of human nature.

>(Big deletion)
>>(2) Do women have souls in Islam?
>>
>>People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
>>souls.  I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
>>Muslims of any era.  I have heard of some Christians of some eras
>>holding this viewpoint, but not Muslims.  Are you sure you might not be
>>confusing Christian history with Islamic history?
> 
>Yes, it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
>Caliphate.

I would like a reference if you have got one, for this is news to me.

>>Anyhow, that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown
>>from many verses of the Qur'an.  For example, the Qur'an says:
>>
>>"For Muslim men and women, --
>>for believing men and women,
>>for devout men and women,
>>for true men and women,
>>for men and women who are patient and constant,
>>for men and women who humble themselves,
>>for men and women who give in charity,
>>for men and women who fast (and deny themselves),
>>for men and women who guard their chastity,
>>and for men and women who engage much in God's praise --
>>For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward."
>>
>>[Qur'an 33:35, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation]
>>
>>There are other quotes too, but I think the above quote shows that men
>>and women are spiritual equals (and thus, that women have souls just as
>>men do) very clearly.
>>
> 
>No, it does not. It implies that they have souls, but it does not say they
>have souls. And it is not given that the quote above is given a high
>priority in all interpretations.

One must approach the Qur'an with intelligence.  Any thinking approach
to the Qur'an cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it
that women and men are spiritual equals.

I think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have
souls.  Does it make any sense for something without a soul to be
forgiven?  Or to have a great reward (understood to be in the
after-life)?  I think the usual answer would be no -- in which case, the
part saying "For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward"
says they have souls.  

(If it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven, then 
I have no idea _what_ a soul is.)

As for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority
in all interpretations, any thinking approach to the Qur'an has to give
all verses of the Qur'an equal priority.  That is because, according to
Muslim belief, the _whole_ Qur'an is the revelation of God -- in fact,
denying the truth of any part of the Qur'an is sufficient to be
considered a disbeliever in Islam.

>Quite similar to you other post, even when the Quran does not encourage
>slavery, it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to
>slavery. It is a non sequitur.

Look, any approach to the Qur'an must be done with intelligence and
thought.  It is in this fashion that one can try to understand the
Quran's message.  In a book of finite length, it cannot explicitly
answer every question you want to put to it, but through its teachings
it can guide you.  I think, however, that women are the spiritual equals
of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse, and that
since women can clearly be "forgiven" and "rewarded" they _must_ have
souls (from the above verse).

Let's try to understand what the Qur'an is trying to teach, rather than
try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this
passage or that passage.  The misinterpretations of the Qur'an based on
ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite, but the interpretations 
fully consistent are more limited.  Let's try to discuss these
interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can
ignore this bit or that bit, for that is just showing how people can try
to twist Islam for their own ends -- something I do not deny -- but
provides no reflection on the true teachings of Islam whatsoever.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam  Dress Code for women
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 120

In 16BA7103C3I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes

In article 1993Apr509125811830monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 
Deletion
Of course people say what they think to be the religion and that this
is not exactly the same coming from different people within the
religion  There is nothing with there existing different perspectives
within the religion  perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on
the truth

My point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime

And that they converge is counterfactual religions appear to split and
diverge Even when there might be a True Religion at the core the layers
above determine what happens in practise and they are quite inhumane
usually

 
What you post then is supposed to be an answer but I dont see what is has
got to do with what I say
 
I will repeat it Religions as are harm people And religions dont
converge they split Giving more to disagree upon And there is a lot
of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be
tolerant at all

Ideologies also split giving more to disagree upon and may also lead
to intolerance  So do you also oppose all ideologies

I dont think your argument is an argument against religion at all but
just points out the weaknesses of human nature

Big deletion
2 Do women have souls in Islam

People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
souls  I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
Muslims of any era  I have heard of some Christians of some eras
holding this viewpoint but not Muslims  Are you sure you might not be
confusing Christian history with Islamic history
 
Yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
Caliphate

I would like a reference if you have got one for this is news to me

Anyhow that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown
from many verses of the Quran  For example the Quran says

For Muslim men and women 
for believing men and women
for devout men and women
for true men and women
for men and women who are patient and constant
for men and women who humble themselves
for men and women who give in charity
for men and women who fast and deny themselves
for men and women who guard their chastity
and for men and women who engage much in Gods praise 
For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward

[Quran 3335 Abdullah Yusuf Alis translation]

There are other quotes too but I think the above quote shows that men
and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just as
men do very clearly

 
No it does not It implies that they have souls but it does not say they
have souls And it is not given that the quote above is given a high
priority in all interpretations

One must approach the Quran with intelligence  Any thinking approach
to the Quran cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it
that women and men are spiritual equals

I think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have
souls  Does it make any sense for something without a soul to be
forgiven  Or to have a great reward understood to be in the
afterlife  I think the usual answer would be no  in which case the
part saying For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward
says they have souls  

If it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven then 
I have no idea _what_ a soul is

As for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority
in all interpretations any thinking approach to the Quran has to give
all verses of the Quran equal priority  That is because according to
Muslim belief the _whole_ Quran is the revelation of God  in fact
denying the truth of any part of the Quran is sufficient to be
considered a disbeliever in Islam

Quite similar to you other post even when the Quran does not encourage
slavery it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to
slavery It is a non sequitur

Look any approach to the Quran must be done with intelligence and
thought  It is in this fashion that one can try to understand the
Qurans message  In a book of finite length it cannot explicitly
answer every question you want to put to it but through its teachings
it can guide you  I think however that women are the spiritual equals
of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse and that
since women can clearly be forgiven and rewarded they _must_ have
souls from the above verse

Lets try to understand what the Quran is trying to teach rather than
try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this
passage or that passage  The misinterpretations of the Quran based on
ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite but the interpretations 
fully consistent are more limited  Lets try to discuss these
interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can
ignore this bit or that bit for that is just showing how people can try
to twist Islam for their own ends  something I do not deny  but
provides no reflection on the true teachings of Islam whatsoever

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 33

higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>(Josh Hopkins) writes:
>> I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in 
>> connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. 

>The General Chairman is Paul Bialla, who is some official of General
>Dynamics.

>The emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people*
>on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. You'd
>think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
>modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but
>there's not a hint of this in the brochure.

It may be that they just didn't mention it, or that they actually haven't 
thought about it.  I got the vague impression from their mission proposal
that they weren't taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing.  They
seemed to want to land people on the Moon by the end of the decade without 
explaining why, or what they would do once they got there.  The only application
I remember from the Av Week article was placing a telescope on the Moon.  That's
great, but they don't explain why it can't be done robotically. 

>> Hrumph.  They didn't send _me_ anything :(

>You're not hanging out with the Right People, apparently.

But I'm a _member_.  Besides Bill, I hang out with you :) 

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Distribution na
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 33

higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes

Josh Hopkins writes
 I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in 
 connection with their proposal for an early manned landing 

The General Chairman is Paul Bialla who is some official of General
Dynamics

The emphasis seems to be on a scaleddown fast plan to put people
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflightfunding climate Youd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but
theres not a hint of this in the brochure

It may be that they just didnt mention it or that they actually havent 
thought about it  I got the vague impression from their mission proposal
that they werent taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing  They
seemed to want to land people on the Moon by the end of the decade without 
explaining why or what they would do once they got there  The only application
I remember from the Av Week article was placing a telescope on the Moon  Thats
great but they dont explain why it cant be done robotically 

 Hrumph  They didnt send _me_ anything 

Youre not hanging out with the Right People apparently

But Im a _member_  Besides Bill I hang out with you  

 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 10

In article <1qk4qf$mf8@male.EBay.Sun.COM> almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>Hey!? What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
>for Columbus+500?

There was a recession, and none of the potential entrants could raise any
money.  The race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of
the fundraising, but the less said about that the better.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 10

In article 1qk4qfmf8maleEBaySunCOM almopackmindEBaySunCOM writes
Hey What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus500

There was a recession and none of the potential entrants could raise any
money  The race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of
the fundraising but the less said about that the better
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Benediktine Metaphysics
Lines: 24

Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:

>     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.

"Contradictory" is a property of language.  If I correct this to


      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

I will object to definitions as reality.  If you then amend it to

      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

then we've come to something which is plainly false.  Failures in
description are merely failures in description.

(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)


-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Benediktine Metaphysics
Lines 24

Benedikt Rosenau writes with great authority

     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST

Contradictory is a property of language  If I correct this to


      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

I will object to definitions as reality  If you then amend it to

      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

then weve come to something which is plainly false  Failures in
description are merely failures in description

Im not an objectivist remember


 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: gawne@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Vulcan?  (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Distribution: na
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines: 42

In article <VNci2B7w165w@inqmind.bison.mb.ca>, victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca 
(Victor Laking) writes:
> Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
>  
> All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
> drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's 
> orbit.  Beyond that, I have no other info.

The sightings were apparently spurious.  There is no planet inside of
the orbit of Mercury.

The idea of Vulcan came from the differences between Mercury's observed
perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to
Newtonian physics.  Leverrier made an extensive set of observations
and calculations during the mid 19th century, and Simon Newcombe later
improved on the observations and re-calculated using Leverrier's system
of equations.  Now Leverrier was one of the co-discoverers of Neptune
and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit
of Uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was
afoot with Mercury.

But alas, 'twere not so.  Mercury's perihelion precesses at the rate
it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly
curved due to the sun's mass.  This explanation had to wait until 1915
and Albert Einstein's synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics
of moving bodies (commonly called Special Relativity) with Reimanian 
geometry.  The result was the General Theory of Relativity, and one of
it's most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession
of Mercury's perihelion almost exactly.  (Exactly if you use Newcomb's
numbers rather than Leverrier's.)

Of course not everybody believes Einstein, and that's fine.  But subsequent
efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than Mercury using radar
have been fruitless.

-Bill Gawne

 "Forgive him, he is a barbarian, who thinks the customs of his tribe
  are the laws of the universe."                       - G. J. Caesar

Any opinions are my own.  Nothing in this post constitutes an official
statement from any person or organization.

after prepro  From gawnestsciedu
Subject Re Vulcan  No not the guy with the ears
Distribution na
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines 42

In article  victorinqmindbisonmbca 
Victor Laking writes
 Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
  
 All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
 drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys 
 orbit  Beyond that I have no other info

The sightings were apparently spurious  There is no planet inside of
the orbit of Mercury

The idea of Vulcan came from the differences between Mercurys observed
perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to
Newtonian physics  Leverrier made an extensive set of observations
and calculations during the mid 19th century and Simon Newcombe later
improved on the observations and recalculated using Leverriers system
of equations  Now Leverrier was one of the codiscoverers of Neptune
and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit
of Uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was
afoot with Mercury

But alas twere not so  Mercurys perihelion precesses at the rate
it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly
curved due to the suns mass  This explanation had to wait until 1915
and Albert Einsteins synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics
of moving bodies commonly called Special Relativity with Reimanian 
geometry  The result was the General Theory of Relativity and one of
its most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession
of Mercurys perihelion almost exactly  Exactly if you use Newcombs
numbers rather than Leverriers

Of course not everybody believes Einstein and thats fine  But subsequent
efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than Mercury using radar
have been fruitless

Bill Gawne

 Forgive him he is a barbarian who thinks the customs of his tribe
  are the laws of the universe                        G J Caesar

Any opinions are my own  Nothing in this post constitutes an official
statement from any person or organization

preprocess doc  From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 1 AW&ST
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 10


>Marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one SRB
>during the Jan 12 Endeavour launch.  It lasted only three seconds and
>the thrust difference between the two SRBs was not enough to cause
>nozzle gimballing.  The SRB casing shows no abnormalities.

Is this the one that had the {wrench|pliers} found inside after
recovery?



after prepro  From schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher
Subject Re space news from Feb 1 AWST
NntpPostingHost starmanconvexcom
Organization CONVEX Computer Corporation Richardson Tx USA
XDisclaimer This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX
Lines 10


Marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one SRB
during the Jan 12 Endeavour launch  It lasted only three seconds and
the thrust difference between the two SRBs was not enough to cause
nozzle gimballing  The SRB casing shows no abnormalities

Is this the one that had the wrenchpliers found inside after
recovery



preprocess doc  Subject: Life on Mars???
From: schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer)
Organization: Inland Steel Company, East Chicago, IN
Nntp-Posting-Host: pa881a
Nntp-Posting-User: schiewer
Lines: 9

What is the deal with life on Mars?  I save the "face" and heard 
associated theories. (which sound thin to me)

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
Does anyone buy all the life theories?

-- 
Don Schiewer   | Internet  schiewer@pa881a.inland.com    | Onward Great
Inland Steel   | UUCP:     !uucp!pa881a.inland!schiewer  | Stream...

after prepro  Subject Life on Mars
From schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer
Organization Inland Steel Company East Chicago IN
NntpPostingHost pa881a
NntpPostingUser schiewer
Lines 9

What is the deal with life on Mars  I save the face and heard 
associated theories which sound thin to me

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Does anyone buy all the life theories

 
Don Schiewer    Internet  schiewerpa881ainlandcom     Onward Great
Inland Steel    UUCP     uucppa881ainlandschiewer   Stream

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 04/15 - Calculations
Supersedes: <math_730956451@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 334
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:56:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/math
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:12 $

PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS

    COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES

    References that have been frequently recommended on the net are:

    "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" Roger Bate, Donald Mueller, Jerry White
    1971, Dover Press, 455pp $8.95 (US) (paperback). ISBN 0-486-60061-0

    NASA Spaceflight handbooks (dating from the 1960s)
	SP-33 Orbital Flight Handbook (3 parts)
	SP-34 Lunar Flight Handbook   (3 parts)
	SP-35 Planetary Flight Handbook (9 parts)

	These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
	through the US Govt. Printing Office (GPO), although more
	information would probably be needed to order them.

    M. A. Minovitch, _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
    Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
    Attractions_, Technical Report 32-464, Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
    Pasadena, Calif., Oct, 1963.

	The title says all. Starts of with the basics and works its way up.
	Very good. It has a companion article:

    M. Minovitch, _Utilizing Large Planetary Perubations for the Design of
    Deep-Space Solar-Probe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_, Technical
    Report 32-849, JPL, Pasadena, Calif., 1965.

	You need to read the first one first to realy understand this one.
	It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second.

	Contact JPL for availability of these reports.

    "Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics", Peter C. Hughes 1986, John Wiley and
	Sons.

    "Celestial Mechanics: a computational guide for the practitioner",
    Lawrence G. Taff, (Wiley-Interscience, New York, 1985).

	Starts with the basics (2-body problem, coordinates) and works up to
	orbit determinations, perturbations, and differential corrections.
	Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
	discussion of n-body problems.


    COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS

    More net references:

    Van Flandern & Pullinen, _Low-Precision Formulae for Planetary
    Positions_, Astrophysical J. Supp Series, 41:391-411, 1979. Look in an
    astronomy or physics library for this; also said to be available from
    Willmann-Bell.

	Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
	have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.

    _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
    Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
    Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
    #PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
    this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.

    _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
    distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates
    1800-2049.

    "Planetary Programs and Tables from -4000 to +2800", Bretagnon & Simon
    1986, Willmann-Bell.

	Floppy disks available separately.

    "Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics" (2nd ed), J.M.A. Danby 1988,
    Willmann-Bell.

	A good fundamental text. Includes BASIC programs; a companion set of
	floppy disks is available separately.

    "Astronomical Formulae for Calculators" (4th ed.), J. Meeus 1988,
    Willmann-Bell.

    "Astronomical Algorithms", J. Meeus 1991, Willmann-Bell.

	If you actively use one of the editions of "Astronomical Formulae
	for Calculators", you will want to replace it with "Astronomical
	Algorithms". This new book is more oriented towards computers than
	calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
	modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the U.S. Naval
	Observatory, and the Bureau des Longitudes. The previous books were
	all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century.

	Algorithms available separately on diskette.

    "Practical Astronomy with your Calculator" (3rd ed.), P. Duffett-Smith
    1988, Cambridge University Press.

    "Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer", D. Tattersfield 1984,
    Stanley Thornes, Ltd.

	Includes example programs in BASIC.

    "Orbits for Amateurs II", D. Tattersfield 1987, John Wiley & Sons.

    "Astronomy / Scientific Software" - catalog of shareware, public domain,
    and commercial software for IBM and other PCs. Astronomy software
    includes planetarium simulations, ephemeris generators, astronomical
    databases, solar system simulations, satellite tracking programs,
    celestial mechanics simulators, and more.

	Andromeda Software, Inc.
	P.O. Box 605
	Amherst, NY 14226-0605


    COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTH-IMPACTING ASTEROIDS

    Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula, based on
    studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests.

		     (1/3.4)
    D = S  S  c  K  W	    : crater diameter in km
	 g  p  f  n

	       (1/6)
    S = (g /g )		    : gravity correction factor for bodies other than
     g	  e  t		      Earth, where g = 9.8 m/s^2 and g	is the surface
					    e		      t
			      gravity of the target body. This scaling is
			      cited for lunar craters and may hold true for
			      other bodies.

		(1/3.4)
    S = (p / p )	    : correction factor for target density p  ,
     p	  a   t							    t
			      p  = 1.8 g/cm^3 for alluvium at the Jangle U
			       a
			      crater site, p = 2.6 g/cm^3 for average
			      rock on the continental shields.

    C			    : crater collapse factor, 1 for craters <= 3 km
			      in diameter, 1.3 for larger craters (on Earth).

							    (1/3.4)
    K			    : .074 km / (kT TNT equivalent)
     n			      empirically determined from the Jangle U
			      nuclear test crater.

	      3		   2		       19
    W = pi * d	* delta * V  / (12 * 4.185 * 10  )
			    : projectile kinetic energy in kT TNT equivalent
			      given diameter d, velocity v, and projectile
			      density delta in CGS units. delta of around 3
			      g/cm^3 is fairly good for an asteroid.

    An RMS velocity of V = 20 km/sec may be used for Earth-crossing
    asteroids.

    Under these assumptions, the body which created the Barringer Meteor
    Crater in Arizona (1.13 km diameter) would have been about 40 meters in
    diameter.

    More generally, one can use (after Gehrels, 1985):

    Asteroid	    Number of objects  Impact probability  Impact energy
    diameter (km)		       (impacts/year)	   (* 5*10^20 ergs)

     10			    10		     10^-8		10^9
      1			 1 000		     10^-6		10^6
      0.1	       100 000		     10^-4		10^3

    assuming simple scaling laws. Note that 5*10^20 ergs = 13 000 tons TNT
    equivalent, or the energy released by the Hiroshima A-bomb.

    References:

    Gehrels, T. 1985 Asteroids and comets. _Physics Today_ 38, 32-41. [an
	excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]

    Shoemaker, E.M. 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth. _Ann.
	Rev. Earth Planet. Sci._ 11, 461-494. [very long and fairly
	technical but a comprehensive examination of the
	 subject]

    Shoemaker, E.M., J.G. Williams, E.F. Helin & R.F. Wolfe 1979
	Earth-crossing asteroids: Orbital classes, collision rates with
	Earth, and origin. In _Asteroids_, T. Gehrels, ed., pp. 253-282,
	University of Arizona Press, Tucson.

    Cunningham, C.J. 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids: The Next Frontier_
	(Richmond: Willman-Bell, Inc.) [covers all aspects of asteroid
	studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
	of all experience levels. It also has a very extensive reference
	list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
	field.]


    MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY

    Two easy-to-find sources of map projections are the "Encyclopaedia
    Brittanica", (particularly the older volumes) and a tutorial appearing
    in _Graphics Gems_ (Academic Press, 1990). The latter was written with
    simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind
    (spherical trig formulae also appear, as do digitally-plotted examples).

    More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
    Snyder's USGS publication "Map Projections--A Working Manual", USGS
    Professional Paper 1395. This contains detailed descriptions of 32
    projections, with history, features, projection formulas (for both
    spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth), and numerical test cases. It's a
    neat book, all 382 pages worth. This one's $20.

    You might also want the companion volume, by Snyder and Philip Voxland,
    "An Album of Map Projections", USGS Professional Paper 1453. This
    contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants. Formulas are
    in the back, example plots in the front. $14, 250 pages.

    You can order these 2 ways. The cheap, slow way is direct from USGS:
    Earth Science Information Center, US Geological Survey, 507 National
    Center, Reston, VA 22092. (800)-USA-MAPS. They can quote you a price and
    tell you where to send your money. Expect a 6-8 week turnaround time.

    A much faster way (about 1 week) is through Timely Discount Topos,
    (303)-469-5022, 9769 W. 119th Drive, Suite 9, Broomfield, CO 80021. Call
    them and tell them what you want. They'll quote a price, you send a
    check, and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
    for you. Add about a $3-4 service charge, plus shipping.

    A (perhaps more accessible) mapping article is:

	R. Miller and F. Reddy, "Mapping the World in Pascal",
	Byte V12 #14, December 1987

	Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections. A
	demo program, CARTOG.PAS, and a small (6,000 point) coastline data
	is available on CompuServe, GEnie, and many BBSs.

    Some references for spherical trignometry are:

	_Spherical Astronomy_, W.M. Smart, Cambridge U. Press, 1931.

	_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_, S. Newcomb, Dover, 1960.

	_Spherical Astronomy_, R.M. Green, Cambridge U. Press., 1985 (update
	of Smart).

	_Spherical Astronomy_, E Woolard and G.Clemence, Academic
	Press, 1966.


    PERFORMING N-BODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY

	"Computer Simulation Using Particles"
	R. W. Hockney and J. W. Eastwood
	(Adam Hilger; Bristol and Philadelphia; 1988)

	"The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems",
	L. Greengard
	MIT Press, 1988.

	    A breakthrough O(N) simulation method. Has been parallelized.

	L. Greengard and V. Rokhlin, "A fast algorithm for particle
	simulations," Journal of Computational Physics, 73:325-348, 1987.

	"An O(N) Algorithm for Three-dimensional N-body Simulations", MSEE
	thesis, Feng Zhao, MIT AILab Technical Report 995, 1987

	"Galactic Dynamics"
	J. Binney & S. Tremaine
	(Princeton U. Press; Princeton; 1987)

	    Includes an O(N^2) FORTRAN code written by Aarseth, a pioneer in
	    the field.

	Hierarchical (N log N) tree methods are described in these papers:

	A. W. Appel, "An Efficient Program for Many-body Simulation", SIAM
	Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing, Vol. 6, p. 85,
	1985.

	Barnes & Hut, "A Hierarchical O(N log N) Force-Calculation
	Algorithm", Nature, V324 # 6096, 4-10 Dec 1986.

	L. Hernquist, "Hierarchical N-body Methods", Computer Physics
	Communications, Vol. 48, p. 107, 1988.


    INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT

    If you just need to examine FITS images, use the ppm package (see the
    comp.graphics FAQ) to convert them to your preferred format. For more
    information on the format and other software to read and write it, see
    the sci.astro.fits FAQ.


    SKY (UNIX EPHEMERIS PROGRAM)

    The 6th Edition of the Unix operating system came with several software
    systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations.
    Included were an ephmeris, a satellite track, and speech synthesis
    software. The ephmeris, sky(6), is available within AT&T and to sites
    possessing a Unix source code license. The program is regarded as Unix
    source code. Sky is <0.5MB. Send proof of source code license to

	E. Miya
	MS 258-5
	NASA Ames Research Center
	Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
	eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov


    THREE-DIMENSIONAL STAR/GALAXY COORDINATES

    To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects, first obtain an
    astronomical database which specifies right ascension, declination, and
    parallax for the objects. Convert parallax into distance using the
    formula in part 6 of the FAQ, convert RA and declination to coordinates
    on a unit sphere (see some of the references on planetary positions and
    spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this), and
    scale this by the distance.

    Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
    (sources listed in FAQ section 3) or "The Catalogue of Stars within 25
    parsecs of the Sun" (in pub/SPACE/FAQ/stars.data and stars.doc on
    ames.arc.nasa.gov).


NEXT: FAQ #5/15 - References on specific areas

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0415  Calculations
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 334
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195603 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spacemath
Lastmodified Date 930401 143912 

PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS

    COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES

    References that have been frequently recommended on the net are

    Fundamentals of Astrodynamics Roger Bate Donald Mueller Jerry White
    1971 Dover Press 455pp 895 US paperback ISBN 0486600610

    NASA Spaceflight handbooks dating from the 1960s
	SP33 Orbital Flight Handbook 3 parts
	SP34 Lunar Flight Handbook   3 parts
	SP35 Planetary Flight Handbook 9 parts

	These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
	through the US Govt Printing Office GPO although more
	information would probably be needed to order them

    M A Minovitch _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
    Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
    Attractions_ Technical Report 32464 Jet Propulsion Laboratory
    Pasadena Calif Oct 1963

	The title says all Starts of with the basics and works its way up
	Very good It has a companion article

    M Minovitch _Utilizing Large Planetary Perubations for the Design of
    DeepSpace SolarProbe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_ Technical
    Report 32849 JPL Pasadena Calif 1965

	You need to read the first one first to realy understand this one
	It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second

	Contact JPL for availability of these reports

    Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics Peter C Hughes 1986 John Wiley and
	Sons

    Celestial Mechanics a computational guide for the practitioner
    Lawrence G Taff WileyInterscience New York 1985

	Starts with the basics 2body problem coordinates and works up to
	orbit determinations perturbations and differential corrections
	Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
	discussion of nbody problems


    COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS

    More net references

    Van Flandern  Pullinen _LowPrecision Formulae for Planetary
    Positions_ Astrophysical J Supp Series 41391411 1979 Look in an
    astronomy or physics library for this also said to be available from
    WillmannBell

	Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
	period  or  300 years from now Pluto is included but stated to
	have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes

    _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ MICA produced by the US
    Naval Observatory Valid for years 19901999 55 80 outside US
    Available for IBM order PB93500163HDV or Macintosh order
    PB93500155HDV From the NTIS sales desk 7034874650 I believe
    this is intended to replace the USNOs Interactive Computer Ephemeris

    _Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ from the US Naval Observatory
    distributed on IBMPC floppy disks 35 WillmannBell Covers dates
    18002049

    Planetary Programs and Tables from 4000 to 2800 Bretagnon  Simon
    1986 WillmannBell

	Floppy disks available separately

    Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics 2nd ed JMA Danby 1988
    WillmannBell

	A good fundamental text Includes BASIC programs a companion set of
	floppy disks is available separately

    Astronomical Formulae for Calculators 4th ed J Meeus 1988
    WillmannBell

    Astronomical Algorithms J Meeus 1991 WillmannBell

	If you actively use one of the editions of Astronomical Formulae
	for Calculators you will want to replace it with Astronomical
	Algorithms This new book is more oriented towards computers than
	calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
	modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory the US Naval
	Observatory and the Bureau des Longitudes The previous books were
	all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century

	Algorithms available separately on diskette

    Practical Astronomy with your Calculator 3rd ed P DuffettSmith
    1988 Cambridge University Press

    Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer D Tattersfield 1984
    Stanley Thornes Ltd

	Includes example programs in BASIC

    Orbits for Amateurs II D Tattersfield 1987 John Wiley  Sons

    Astronomy  Scientific Software  catalog of shareware public domain
    and commercial software for IBM and other PCs Astronomy software
    includes planetarium simulations ephemeris generators astronomical
    databases solar system simulations satellite tracking programs
    celestial mechanics simulators and more

	Andromeda Software Inc
	PO Box 605
	Amherst NY 142260605


    COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTHIMPACTING ASTEROIDS

    Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula based on
    studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests

		     134
    D  S  S  c  K  W	     crater diameter in km
	 g  p  f  n

	       16
    S  g g 		     gravity correction factor for bodies other than
     g	  e  t		      Earth where g  98 ms^2 and g	is the surface
					    e		      t
			      gravity of the target body This scaling is
			      cited for lunar craters and may hold true for
			      other bodies

		134
    S  p  p 	     correction factor for target density p  
     p	  a   t							    t
			      p   18 gcm^3 for alluvium at the Jangle U
			       a
			      crater site p  26 gcm^3 for average
			      rock on the continental shields

    C			     crater collapse factor 1 for craters  3 km
			      in diameter 13 for larger craters on Earth

							    134
    K			     074 km  kT TNT equivalent
     n			      empirically determined from the Jangle U
			      nuclear test crater

	      3		   2		       19
    W  pi  d	 delta  V   12  4185  10  
			     projectile kinetic energy in kT TNT equivalent
			      given diameter d velocity v and projectile
			      density delta in CGS units delta of around 3
			      gcm^3 is fairly good for an asteroid

    An RMS velocity of V  20 kmsec may be used for Earthcrossing
    asteroids

    Under these assumptions the body which created the Barringer Meteor
    Crater in Arizona 113 km diameter would have been about 40 meters in
    diameter

    More generally one can use after Gehrels 1985

    Asteroid	    Number of objects  Impact probability  Impact energy
    diameter km		       impactsyear	    510^20 ergs

     10			    10		     10^8		10^9
      1			 1 000		     10^6		10^6
      01	       100 000		     10^4		10^3

    assuming simple scaling laws Note that 510^20 ergs  13 000 tons TNT
    equivalent or the energy released by the Hiroshima Abomb

    References

    Gehrels T 1985 Asteroids and comets _Physics Today_ 38 3241 [an
	excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]

    Shoemaker EM 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth _Ann
	Rev Earth Planet Sci_ 11 461494 [very long and fairly
	technical but a comprehensive examination of the
	 subject]

    Shoemaker EM JG Williams EF Helin  RF Wolfe 1979
	Earthcrossing asteroids Orbital classes collision rates with
	Earth and origin In _Asteroids_ T Gehrels ed pp 253282
	University of Arizona Press Tucson

    Cunningham CJ 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids The Next Frontier_
	Richmond WillmanBell Inc [covers all aspects of asteroid
	studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
	of all experience levels It also has a very extensive reference
	list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
	field]


    MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY

    Two easytofind sources of map projections are the Encyclopaedia
    Brittanica particularly the older volumes and a tutorial appearing
    in _Graphics Gems_ Academic Press 1990 The latter was written with
    simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind
    spherical trig formulae also appear as do digitallyplotted examples

    More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
    Snyders USGS publication Map ProjectionsA Working Manual USGS
    Professional Paper 1395 This contains detailed descriptions of 32
    projections with history features projection formulas for both
    spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth and numerical test cases Its a
    neat book all 382 pages worth This ones 20

    You might also want the companion volume by Snyder and Philip Voxland
    An Album of Map Projections USGS Professional Paper 1453 This
    contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants Formulas are
    in the back example plots in the front 14 250 pages

    You can order these 2 ways The cheap slow way is direct from USGS
    Earth Science Information Center US Geological Survey 507 National
    Center Reston VA 22092 800USAMAPS They can quote you a price and
    tell you where to send your money Expect a 68 week turnaround time

    A much faster way about 1 week is through Timely Discount Topos
    3034695022 9769 W 119th Drive Suite 9 Broomfield CO 80021 Call
    them and tell them what you want Theyll quote a price you send a
    check and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
    for you Add about a 34 service charge plus shipping

    A perhaps more accessible mapping article is

	R Miller and F Reddy Mapping the World in Pascal
	Byte V12 14 December 1987

	Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections A
	demo program CARTOGPAS and a small 6000 point coastline data
	is available on CompuServe GEnie and many BBSs

    Some references for spherical trignometry are

	_Spherical Astronomy_ WM Smart Cambridge U Press 1931

	_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_ S Newcomb Dover 1960

	_Spherical Astronomy_ RM Green Cambridge U Press 1985 update
	of Smart

	_Spherical Astronomy_ E Woolard and GClemence Academic
	Press 1966


    PERFORMING NBODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY

	Computer Simulation Using Particles
	R W Hockney and J W Eastwood
	Adam Hilger Bristol and Philadelphia 1988

	The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems
	L Greengard
	MIT Press 1988

	    A breakthrough ON simulation method Has been parallelized

	L Greengard and V Rokhlin A fast algorithm for particle
	simulations Journal of Computational Physics 73325348 1987

	An ON Algorithm for Threedimensional Nbody Simulations MSEE
	thesis Feng Zhao MIT AILab Technical Report 995 1987

	Galactic Dynamics
	J Binney  S Tremaine
	Princeton U Press Princeton 1987

	    Includes an ON^2 FORTRAN code written by Aarseth a pioneer in
	    the field

	Hierarchical N log N tree methods are described in these papers

	A W Appel An Efficient Program for Manybody Simulation SIAM
	Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing Vol 6 p 85
	1985

	Barnes  Hut A Hierarchical ON log N ForceCalculation
	Algorithm Nature V324  6096 410 Dec 1986

	L Hernquist Hierarchical Nbody Methods Computer Physics
	Communications Vol 48 p 107 1988


    INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT

    If you just need to examine FITS images use the ppm package see the
    compgraphics FAQ to convert them to your preferred format For more
    information on the format and other software to read and write it see
    the sciastrofits FAQ


    SKY UNIX EPHEMERIS PROGRAM

    The 6th Edition of the Unix operating system came with several software
    systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations
    Included were an ephmeris a satellite track and speech synthesis
    software The ephmeris sky6 is available within ATT and to sites
    possessing a Unix source code license The program is regarded as Unix
    source code Sky is 05MB Send proof of source code license to

	E Miya
	MS 2585
	NASA Ames Research Center
	Moffett Field CA 940351000
	eugeneorvillenasnasagov


    THREEDIMENSIONAL STARGALAXY COORDINATES

    To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects first obtain an
    astronomical database which specifies right ascension declination and
    parallax for the objects Convert parallax into distance using the
    formula in part 6 of the FAQ convert RA and declination to coordinates
    on a unit sphere see some of the references on planetary positions and
    spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this and
    scale this by the distance

    Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
    sources listed in FAQ section 3 or The Catalogue of Stars within 25
    parsecs of the Sun in pubSPACEFAQstarsdata and starsdoc on
    amesarcnasagov


NEXT FAQ 515  References on specific areas

preprocess doc  From: mwm+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Maimone)
Subject: How to read sci.space without netnews
Summary: Space Digest address
Nntp-Posting-Host: a.gp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 36

In article <734975852.F00001@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
>but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
>feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.	

	Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts:  Space Digest.
It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.

	TO SUBSCRIBE:
	   Send the following message in the *body* (not subject) of an
	   email message:

		subscribe space John Q Public

	   to one of these addresses:

		listserv@uga
		listserv@uga.cc.uga.edu
		listserv@finhutc
		listserv@finhuc.hut.fi
		space-request@isu.isunet.edu

	   You'll receive all the posts in "digest" form once a day.  Please
	   use a listserv if you can, the "space-request" address is handled
	   manually.

	TO POST MESSAGES:
	   Send your message (with a reasonable Subject line) to:

		space@isu.isunet.edu

Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu
-- 
Mark Maimone				phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science	email: mwm@cmu.edu

after prepro  From mwmcscmuedu Mark Maimone
Subject How to read scispace without netnews
Summary Space Digest address
NntpPostingHost agpcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon
Lines 36

In article 734975852F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them	

	Kudos to Mark for his generous offer but there already exists a
large emailbased forwarding system for scispace posts  Space Digest
It mirrors scispace exactly and provides simple twoway communication

	TO SUBSCRIBE
	   Send the following message in the body not subject of an
	   email message

		subscribe space John Q Public

	   to one of these addresses

		listservuga
		listservugaccugaedu
		listservfinhutc
		listservfinhuchutfi
		spacerequestisuisunetedu

	   Youll receive all the posts in digest form once a day  Please
	   use a listserv if you can the spacerequest address is handled
	   manually

	TO POST MESSAGES
	   Send your message with a reasonable Subject line to

		spaceisuisunetedu

Questions comments to spacerequestisuisunetedu
 
Mark Maimone				phone 1 412 268  7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science	email mwmcmuedu

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 43

Jon Livesey writes:

>So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had "different
>versions" of some OT texts.   Did I misunderstand?

Reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in
the world.  Newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of
religion, and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a "real"
story (that is, a bigger headline).

Let's back up to 1935.  At this point, we have the Masoretic text, the
various targums (translations/commentaries in aramaic, etc.), and the
Septuagint, the ancient greek translation.  The Masoretic text is the
standard Jewish text and essentially does not vary.  In some places it has
obvious corruptions, all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy.
These passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and
to the Septuagint.

Now, the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars:
first, it includes additional texts, and second, in some passages there are
variant readings from the masoretic text (in addition to "fixing"/predating
the various corrupted passages).  It must be emphasized that, to the best of
my knowledge, these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars, and
have little theological import.

The dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient *copy* of almost all of
Isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other OT books.  There
is also an abundance of other material, but as far as I know, there is no
sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha (the extra texts in the
septuagint).  As far as analysis has proceeded, there are also variations
between the DSS texts and the masoretic versions.  These tend to reflect the
septuagint, where the latter isn't obviously in error.  Again, though, the
differences (thus far) are not significant theologically.  There is this big
expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the
material, but so far this hasn't happened.

The DSS *are* important because there is almost no textual tradition in the
OT, unlike for the NT.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization U of Maryland Dept of Computer Science Coll Pk MD 20742
Lines 43

Jon Livesey writes

So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had different
versions of some OT texts   Did I misunderstand

Reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in
the world  Newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of
religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real
story that is a bigger headline

Lets back up to 1935  At this point we have the Masoretic text the
various targums translationscommentaries in aramaic etc and the
Septuagint the ancient greek translation  The Masoretic text is the
standard Jewish text and essentially does not vary  In some places it has
obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy
These passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and
to the Septuagint

Now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars
first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are
variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixingpredating
the various corrupted passages  It must be emphasized that to the best of
my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and
have little theological import

The dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of
Isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other OT books  There
is also an abundance of other material but as far as I know there is no
sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the
septuagint  As far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations
between the DSS texts and the masoretic versions  These tend to reflect the
septuagint where the latter isnt obviously in error  Again though the
differences thus far are not significant theologically  There is this big
expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the
material but so far this hasnt happened

The DSS are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the
OT unlike for the NT
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 11

In article <1993Apr16.211458.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
 
(deletion)
>Nope, Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws.  The
>ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
>automatically become citizens if they move to Germany, but the
>Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany can't.
 
That's wrong. They can.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 11

In article 1993Apr162114581eaglewesleyanedu
kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu writes
 
deletion
Nope Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws  The
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany cant
 
Thats wrong They can
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Lines: 28

In article <C5L184.Jo9@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
writes:
>In <1qlapk$d7v@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Bruce Salem) 
>writes:
>>In article <C5JrDE.M4z@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike 
>Cobb) writes:
>>>Theory of Creationism: MY theistic view of the theory of creationism, (there
>>>are many others) is stated in Genesis 1.  In the beginning God created
>>>the heavens and the earth.
>
>> Wonderful, now try alittle imaginative thinking!
>
>Huh? Imaginative thinking? What did that have to do with what I said? Would it
>have been better if I said the world has existed forever and never was created
>and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of 
>life from non-life?  WOuld that make me all-wise, and knowing, and
imaginative?

  No, but at least it would be a theory.

 |  __L__
-|-  ___  Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
 |  | o | kv07@iastate.edu
 |/ `---' Iowa State University
/|   ___  Math Department
 |  |___| 400 Carver Hall
 |  |___| Ames, IA  50011
 J  _____

after prepro  From kv07IASTATEEDU Warren Vonroeschlaub
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
ReplyTo kv07IASTATEEDU Warren Vonroeschlaub
Organization Ministry of Silly Walks
Lines 28

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
writes
In 1qlapkd7vmorrowstanfordedu salempangeaStanfordEDU Bruce Salem 
writes
In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike 
Cobb writes
Theory of Creationism MY theistic view of the theory of creationism there
are many others is stated in Genesis 1  In the beginning God created
the heavens and the earth

 Wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking

Huh Imaginative thinking What did that have to do with what I said Would it
have been better if I said the world has existed forever and never was created
and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of 
life from nonlife  WOuld that make me allwise and knowing and
imaginative

  No but at least it would be a theory

   __L__
  ___  Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
    o  kv07iastateedu
  ` Iowa State University
   ___  Math Department
   ___ 400 Carver Hall
   ___ Ames IA  50011
 J  _____

preprocess doc  From: drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: So I'm an idiot, what else is new?
Originator: drickel@bounce
Nntp-Posting-Host: bounce.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Lines: 17


In article <9303311213.AA49462@jsc.nasa.gov>, mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu (R. E. McElwaine) writes:
|> RUSSIA'S OPERATIVE
|> 
|>                In March 1993, Russian President Boris Yeltsin
|>           proposed to the United States and the United Nations a global
|>           defense shield (with "Star Wars"-type weapons) AGAINST
...

Funny.  A bit disturbing.  Forging a posting seems somewhat unethical, even
if the subject is as notorious as McElwaine.

Followups should definitely not go to sci.space.


david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com

after prepro  From drickelbouncementorgcom Dave Rickel
Subject Re So Im an idiot what else is new
Originator drickelbounce
NntpPostingHost bouncementorgcom
Organization Mentor Graphics 
Keywords 
Lines 17


In article 9303311213AA49462jscnasagov mcelwrecnsvaxuwecedu R E McElwaine writes
 RUSSIAS OPERATIVE
 
                In March 1993 Russian President Boris Yeltsin
           proposed to the United States and the United Nations a global
           defense shield with Star Warstype weapons AGAINST


Funny  A bit disturbing  Forging a posting seems somewhat unethical even
if the subject is as notorious as McElwaine

Followups should definitely not go to scispace


david rickel
drickelsjcmentorgcom

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr21.150545.24058@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
|In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
|
|
|In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
|cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
|is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
|base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
|much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
|range.
>

Alan,

	don't forget,  a HUGE  cost for airliner developement is FAA
certification.  the joke is when the paperwork  exceeds teh weight
of the airplane,  it will fly.

The SR-71, and teh X-15  both highly ambitious  aero-space projects were done
on very narrow engineering budgets.   Partly because they didn't spend much
on paper  pushing.   There is some company in missouri  trying to
get funding to build light commercial transporters  on a low cost basis,
mostly by reducing FAA  certification costs.

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr2115054524058itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes


In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
range


Alan

	dont forget  a HUGE  cost for airliner developement is FAA
certification  the joke is when the paperwork  exceeds teh weight
of the airplane  it will fly

The SR71 and teh X15  both highly ambitious  aerospace projects were done
on very narrow engineering budgets   Partly because they didnt spend much
on paper  pushing   There is some company in missouri  trying to
get funding to build light commercial transporters  on a low cost basis
mostly by reducing FAA  certification costs

pat


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 18

Kent Sandvik (sandvik@newton.apple.com) wrote:
: In article <11838@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert
: Beauchaine) wrote:
: >   Someone spank me if I'm wrong, but didn't Lord, Liar, or Lunatic
: >   originate with C.S. Lewis?  Who's this Campollo fellow anyway?

: I do think so, and isn't there a clear connection with the "I do
: believe, because it is absurd" notion by one of the original
: Christians (Origen?).

There is a similar statement attributed to Anselm, "I believe so that
I may understand". In both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than
anyone posting here could accept, which means that neither statement
can be properly analysed in this venue.

Bill



after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 18

Kent Sandvik sandviknewtonapplecom wrote
 In article 11838viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert
 Beauchaine wrote
    Someone spank me if Im wrong but didnt Lord Liar or Lunatic
    originate with CS Lewis  Whos this Campollo fellow anyway

 I do think so and isnt there a clear connection with the I do
 believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original
 Christians Origen

There is a similar statement attributed to Anselm I believe so that
I may understand In both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than
anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement
can be properly analysed in this venue

Bill



preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: sci
Lines: 33

In <C5sy4s.4x2.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:


>Nick Haines sez;
>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
>>maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).

>Level 5?  Out of how many?  What are the different levels?  I've never
>heard of this rating system.  Anyone care to clue me in?

SEI Level 5 (the highest level -- the SEI stands for Software
Engineering Institute).  I'm not sure, but I believe that this rating
only applies to the flight software.  Also keep in mind that it was
*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand.  I would not consider receiving a 'Warning'
status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much (if
anything) from such a rating -- I'll have to get the latest copy of
the guidelines to make sure (they just issued new ones, I think).

Also keep in mind that the SEI levels are concerned primarily with
control of the software process; the assumption is that a
well controlled process will produce good software.  Also keep in mind
that SEI Level 5 is DAMNED HARD.  Most software in this country is
produced by 'engineering practicies' that only rate an SEI Level 1 (if
that). 

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution sci
Lines 33

In  18084TMmsuedu Tom writes


Nick Haines sez
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case

Level 5  Out of how many  What are the different levels  Ive never
heard of this rating system  Anyone care to clue me in

SEI Level 5 the highest level  the SEI stands for Software
Engineering Institute  Im not sure but I believe that this rating
only applies to the flight software  Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown  they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand  I would not consider receiving a Warning
status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much if
anything from such a rating  Ill have to get the latest copy of
the guidelines to make sure they just issued new ones I think

Also keep in mind that the SEI levels are concerned primarily with
control of the software process the assumption is that a
well controlled process will produce good software  Also keep in mind
that SEI Level 5 is DAMNED HARD  Most software in this country is
produced by engineering practicies that only rate an SEI Level 1 if
that 

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters.  WHere  are they.
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 56
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com's message of 23 Apr 1993 23:58:19 -0400

In article <1radsr$att@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

     What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

Their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution,
crudely speaking, indicates we're seeing an edge to the distribution.

   Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
   quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

   Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

Now, in the good old days before GRO data, it was thought the
gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy, it was expected that
GRO would confirm this by either showing they were a local population
(within a few hundred light years) or that they were in the galactic
halo. (Mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed)
(also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was
probably in the LMC, suggesting theorists might be wrong back then...)
	As the Sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo
population should show anisotropy (a local disk population is
ruled out completely at this stage) - to avoid the anisotropy you
have to push the halo out, the energy then gets large, the mechanism
of getting NS out that far becomes questionable, and we should start
to see for example the Andromeda's bursters.
	The data is consistent with either a Oort cloud distribution
(but only just) - but no one can think of a plausible source with
the right spectrum. Or, it can be a cosmological distances (hence
isotropy) and the edge is "the edge of the Universe" ;-)
If at cosmological distances you need very high energy (to detect)
and a very compact source (for spectrum), ergo a neutron star
colliding with another neutron star or black hole. Even then getting
the spectrum is very hard, but conceivable.

	If we know anything about physics at that level,
the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic
strings, wrong spectrum for one thing.

The situation is further complicated by recent claims that
there are two classes of sources ;-)  [in the colliding NS
they'd actually probably fit relatively easily into the
NS-NS and NS-BH collision scenarios respectively]

   my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
   hyperspace :-)

   but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
   are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
   if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.

If you can think of one, remember to invite me to Stockholm...

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  The laws of gravity are very,very strict			*
*  And you're just bending them for your own benefit - B.B. 1988*

after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters  WHere  are they
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 56
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcoms message of 23 Apr 1993 235819 0400

In article 1radsrattaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

     What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away

Their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution
crudely speaking indicates were seeing an edge to the distribution

   Given the enormous  power  i was just wondering  what if they are
   quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by

   Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges   

Now in the good old days before GRO data it was thought the
gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy it was expected that
GRO would confirm this by either showing they were a local population
within a few hundred light years or that they were in the galactic
halo Mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed
also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was
probably in the LMC suggesting theorists might be wrong back then
	As the Sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo
population should show anisotropy a local disk population is
ruled out completely at this stage  to avoid the anisotropy you
have to push the halo out the energy then gets large the mechanism
of getting NS out that far becomes questionable and we should start
to see for example the Andromedas bursters
	The data is consistent with either a Oort cloud distribution
but only just  but no one can think of a plausible source with
the right spectrum Or it can be a cosmological distances hence
isotropy and the edge is the edge of the Universe 
If at cosmological distances you need very high energy to detect
and a very compact source for spectrum ergo a neutron star
colliding with another neutron star or black hole Even then getting
the spectrum is very hard but conceivable

	If we know anything about physics at that level
the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic
strings wrong spectrum for one thing

The situation is further complicated by recent claims that
there are two classes of sources   [in the colliding NS
theyd actually probably fit relatively easily into the
NSNS and NSBH collision scenarios respectively]

   my own pet theory is that its  Flying saucers  entering
   hyperspace 

   but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
   are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes  i just wondered
   if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in

If you can think of one remember to invite me to Stockholm

  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	
  steinlylickucscedu		standard disclaimer  	
  The laws of gravity are veryvery strict			
  And youre just bending them for your own benefit  BB 1988

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 11/15 - Upcoming Planetary Probes
Supersedes: <new_probes_730956574@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 243
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:00:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/new_probes
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:17 $

UPCOMING PLANETARY PROBES - MISSIONS AND SCHEDULES

    Information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below
    would be welcome. Sources: NASA fact sheets, Cassini Mission Design
    team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.


    ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
    Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
    Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
    scintillation proportional counters.


    CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
    NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
    system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
    is scheduled for launch aboard a Titan IV/Centaur in October of 1997.
    After gravity assists of Venus, Earth and Jupiter in a VVEJGA
    trajectory, the spacecraft will arrive at Saturn in June of 2004. Upon
    arrival, the Cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an
    orbit around Saturn. Near the end of this initial orbit, the Huygens
    Probe separates from the Orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of
    Titan. The Orbiter relays the Probe data to Earth for about 3 hours
    while the Probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the
    surface. After the completion of the Probe mission, the Orbiter
    continues touring the Saturnian system for three and a half years. Titan
    synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about 35 flybys of Titan and
    targeted flybys of Iapetus, Dione and Enceladus. The objectives of the
    mission are threefold: conduct detailed studies of Saturn's atmosphere,
    rings and magnetosphere; conduct close-up studies of Saturn's
    satellites, and characterize Titan's atmosphere and surface.

    One of the most intriguing aspects of Titan is the possibility that its
    surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that
    result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere. These
    hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain
    down onto the surface. The Cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to
    peer through Titan's clouds and determine if there is liquid on the
    surface. Experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will
    investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere.

    The Cassini mission is named for Jean Dominique Cassini (1625-1712), the
    first director of the Paris Observatory, who discovered several of
    Saturn's satellites and the major division in its rings. The Titan
    atmospheric entry probe is named for the Dutch physicist Christiaan
    Huygens (1629-1695), who discovered Titan and first described the true
    nature of Saturn's rings.

	 Key Scheduled Dates for the Cassini Mission (VVEJGA Trajectory)
	 -------------------------------------------------------------
	   10/06/97 - Titan IV/Centaur Launch
	   04/21/98 - Venus 1 Gravity Assist
	   06/20/99 - Venus 2 Gravity Assist
	   08/16/99 - Earth Gravity Assist
	   12/30/00 - Jupiter Gravity Assist
	   06/25/04 - Saturn Arrival
	   01/09/05 - Titan Probe Release
	   01/30/05 - Titan Probe Entry
	   06/25/08 - End of Primary Mission
	    (Schedule last updated 7/22/92)


    GALILEO - Jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe, in transit. Has returned
    the first resolved images of an asteroid, Gaspra, while in transit to
    Jupiter. Efforts to unfurl the stuck High-Gain Antenna (HGA) have
    essentially been abandoned. JPL has developed a backup plan using data
    compression (JPEG-like for images, lossless compression for data from
    the other instruments) which should allow the mission to achieve
    approximately 70% of its original objectives.

	   Galileo Schedule
	   ----------------
	   10/18/89 - Launch from Space Shuttle
	   02/09/90 - Venus Flyby
	   10/**/90 - Venus Data Playback
	   12/08/90 - 1st Earth Flyby
	   05/01/91 - High Gain Antenna Unfurled
	   07/91 - 06/92 - 1st Asteroid Belt Passage
	   10/29/91 - Asteroid Gaspra Flyby
	   12/08/92 - 2nd Earth Flyby
	   05/93 - 11/93 - 2nd Asteroid Belt Passage
	   08/28/93 - Asteroid Ida Flyby
	   07/02/95 - Probe Separation
	   07/09/95 - Orbiter Deflection Maneuver
	   12/95 - 10/97 - Orbital Tour of Jovian Moons
	   12/07/95 - Jupiter/Io Encounter
	   07/18/96 - Ganymede
	   09/28/96 - Ganymede
	   12/12/96 - Callisto
	   01/23/97 - Europa
	   02/28/97 - Ganymede
	   04/22/97 - Europa
	   05/31/97 - Europa
	   10/05/97 - Jupiter Magnetotail Exploration


    HITEN - Japanese (ISAS) lunar probe launched 1/24/90. Has made
    multiple lunar flybys. Released Hagoromo, a smaller satellite,
    into lunar orbit. This mission made Japan the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon.


    MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
    surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
    map.


    MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
    Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in
    transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
    one martian year (687 days).


    TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
    8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
    TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
    observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
    increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
    will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean.


    ULYSSES- European Space Agency probe to study the Sun from an orbit over
    its poles. Launched in late 1990, it carries particles-and-fields
    experiments (such as magnetometer, ion and electron collectors for
    various energy ranges, plasma wave radio receivers, etc.) but no camera.

    Since no human-built rocket is hefty enough to send Ulysses far out of
    the ecliptic plane, it went to Jupiter instead, and stole energy from
    that planet by sliding over Jupiter's north pole in a gravity-assist
    manuver in February 1992. This bent its path into a solar orbit tilted
    about 85 degrees to the ecliptic. It will pass over the Sun's south pole
    in the summer of 1993. Its aphelion is 5.2 AU, and, surprisingly, its
    perihelion is about 1.5 AU-- that's right, a solar-studies spacecraft
    that's always further from the Sun than the Earth is!

    While in Jupiter's neigborhood, Ulysses studied the magnetic and
    radiation environment. For a short summary of these results, see
    *Science*, V. 257, p. 1487-1489 (11 September 1992). For gory technical
    detail, see the many articles in the same issue.


    OTHER SPACE SCIENCE MISSIONS (note: this is based on a posting by Ron
    Baalke in 11/89, with ISAS/NASDA information contributed by Yoshiro
    Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp). I'm attempting to track changes based
    on updated shuttle manifests; corrections and updates are welcome.

    1993 Missions
	o ALEXIS [spring, Pegasus]
	    ALEXIS (Array of Low-Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors) is to perform
	    a wide-field sky survey in the "soft" (low-energy) X-ray
	    spectrum. It will scan the entire sky every six months to search
	    for variations in soft-X-ray emission from sources such as white
	    dwarfs, cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars. It will also
	    search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron
	    stars and gamma-ray bursters. ALEXIS is a project of Los Alamos
	    National Laboratory and is primarily a technology development
	    mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the
	    technology. Contact project investigator Jeffrey J Bloch
	    (jjb@beta.lanl.gov) for more information.

	o Wind [Aug, Delta II rocket]
	    Satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere.

	o Space Radar Lab [Sep, STS-60 SRL-01]
	    Gather radar images of Earth's surface.

	o Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [Dec, Pegasus rocket]
	    Study of Stratospheric ozone.

	o SFU (Space Flyer Unit) [ISAS]
	    Conducting space experiments and observations and this can be
	    recovered after it conducts the various scientific and
	    engineering experiments. SFU is to be launched by ISAS and
	    retrieved by the U.S. Space Shuttle on STS-68 in 1994.

    1994
	o Polar Auroral Plasma Physics [May, Delta II rocket]
	    June, measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the
	    Earth.

	o IML-2 (STS) [NASDA, Jul 1994 IML-02]
	    International Microgravity Laboratory.

	o ADEOS [NASDA]
	    Advanced Earth Observing Satellite.

	o MUSES-B (Mu Space Engineering Satellite-B) [ISAS]
	    Conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure
	    and in-space astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves.

    1995
	LUNAR-A [ISAS]
	    Elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the
	    moon's interior.


    Proposed Missions:
	o Advanced X-ray Astronomy Facility (AXAF)
	    Possible launch from shuttle in 1995, AXAF is a space
	    observatory with a high resolution telescope. It would orbit for
	    15 years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe.

	o Earth Observing System (EOS)
	    Possible launch in 1997, 1 of 6 US orbiting space platforms to
	    provide long-term data (15 years) of Earth systems science
	    including planetary evolution.

	o Mercury Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch.

	o Lunar Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch, would be sent into a long-term lunar
	    orbit. The Observer, from 60 miles above the moon's poles, would
	    survey characteristics to provide a global context for the
	    results from the Apollo program.

	o Space Infrared Telescope Facility
	    Possible launch by shuttle in 1999, this is the 4th element of
	    the Great Observatories program. A free-flying observatory with
	    a lifetime of 5 to 10 years, it would observe new comets and
	    other primitive bodies in the outer solar system, study cosmic
	    birth formation of galaxies, stars and planets and distant
	    infrared-emitting galaxies

	o Mars Rover Sample Return (MRSR)
	    Robotics rover would return samples of Mars' atmosphere and
	    surface to Earch for analysis. Possible launch dates: 1996 for
	    imaging orbiter, 2001 for rover.

	o Fire and Ice
	    Possible launch in 2001, will use a gravity assist flyby of
	    Earth in 2003, and use a final gravity assist from Jupiter in
	    2005, where the probe will split into its Fire and Ice
	    components: The Fire probe will journey into the Sun, taking
	    measurements of our star's upper atmosphere until it is
	    vaporized by the intense heat. The Ice probe will head out
	    towards Pluto, reaching the tiny world for study by 2016.


NEXT: FAQ #12/15 - Controversial questions

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1115  Upcoming Planetary Probes
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 243
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 200001 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spacenew_probes
Lastmodified Date 930401 143917 

UPCOMING PLANETARY PROBES  MISSIONS AND SCHEDULES

    Information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below
    would be welcome Sources NASA fact sheets Cassini Mission Design
    team ISASNASDA launch schedules press kits


    ASUKA ASTROD  ISAS Japan Xray astronomy satellite launched into
    Earth orbit on 22093 Equipped with largearea widewavelength 120
    Angstrom Xray telescope Xray CCD cameras and imaging gas
    scintillation proportional counters


    CASSINI  Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe Cassini is a joint
    NASAESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
    system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe Cassini
    is scheduled for launch aboard a Titan IVCentaur in October of 1997
    After gravity assists of Venus Earth and Jupiter in a VVEJGA
    trajectory the spacecraft will arrive at Saturn in June of 2004 Upon
    arrival the Cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an
    orbit around Saturn Near the end of this initial orbit the Huygens
    Probe separates from the Orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of
    Titan The Orbiter relays the Probe data to Earth for about 3 hours
    while the Probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the
    surface After the completion of the Probe mission the Orbiter
    continues touring the Saturnian system for three and a half years Titan
    synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about 35 flybys of Titan and
    targeted flybys of Iapetus Dione and Enceladus The objectives of the
    mission are threefold conduct detailed studies of Saturns atmosphere
    rings and magnetosphere conduct closeup studies of Saturns
    satellites and characterize Titans atmosphere and surface

    One of the most intriguing aspects of Titan is the possibility that its
    surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that
    result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere These
    hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain
    down onto the surface The Cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to
    peer through Titans clouds and determine if there is liquid on the
    surface Experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will
    investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere

    The Cassini mission is named for Jean Dominique Cassini 16251712 the
    first director of the Paris Observatory who discovered several of
    Saturns satellites and the major division in its rings The Titan
    atmospheric entry probe is named for the Dutch physicist Christiaan
    Huygens 16291695 who discovered Titan and first described the true
    nature of Saturns rings

	 Key Scheduled Dates for the Cassini Mission VVEJGA Trajectory
	 
	   100697  Titan IVCentaur Launch
	   042198  Venus 1 Gravity Assist
	   062099  Venus 2 Gravity Assist
	   081699  Earth Gravity Assist
	   123000  Jupiter Gravity Assist
	   062504  Saturn Arrival
	   010905  Titan Probe Release
	   013005  Titan Probe Entry
	   062508  End of Primary Mission
	    Schedule last updated 72292


    GALILEO  Jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe in transit Has returned
    the first resolved images of an asteroid Gaspra while in transit to
    Jupiter Efforts to unfurl the stuck HighGain Antenna HGA have
    essentially been abandoned JPL has developed a backup plan using data
    compression JPEGlike for images lossless compression for data from
    the other instruments which should allow the mission to achieve
    approximately 70 of its original objectives

	   Galileo Schedule
	   
	   101889  Launch from Space Shuttle
	   020990  Venus Flyby
	   1090  Venus Data Playback
	   120890  1st Earth Flyby
	   050191  High Gain Antenna Unfurled
	   0791  0692  1st Asteroid Belt Passage
	   102991  Asteroid Gaspra Flyby
	   120892  2nd Earth Flyby
	   0593  1193  2nd Asteroid Belt Passage
	   082893  Asteroid Ida Flyby
	   070295  Probe Separation
	   070995  Orbiter Deflection Maneuver
	   1295  1097  Orbital Tour of Jovian Moons
	   120795  JupiterIo Encounter
	   071896  Ganymede
	   092896  Ganymede
	   121296  Callisto
	   012397  Europa
	   022897  Ganymede
	   042297  Europa
	   053197  Europa
	   100597  Jupiter Magnetotail Exploration


    HITEN  Japanese ISAS lunar probe launched 12490 Has made
    multiple lunar flybys Released Hagoromo a smaller satellite
    into lunar orbit This mission made Japan the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon


    MAGELLAN  Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
    surface at high resolution Currently 493 collecting a global gravity
    map


    MARS OBSERVER  Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
    Launched 92592 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 493 in
    transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
    one martian year 687 days


    TOPEXPoseidon  Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched
    81092 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
    TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
    observations of the sea level for several years substantially
    increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also
    will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean


    ULYSSES European Space Agency probe to study the Sun from an orbit over
    its poles Launched in late 1990 it carries particlesandfields
    experiments such as magnetometer ion and electron collectors for
    various energy ranges plasma wave radio receivers etc but no camera

    Since no humanbuilt rocket is hefty enough to send Ulysses far out of
    the ecliptic plane it went to Jupiter instead and stole energy from
    that planet by sliding over Jupiters north pole in a gravityassist
    manuver in February 1992 This bent its path into a solar orbit tilted
    about 85 degrees to the ecliptic It will pass over the Suns south pole
    in the summer of 1993 Its aphelion is 52 AU and surprisingly its
    perihelion is about 15 AU thats right a solarstudies spacecraft
    thats always further from the Sun than the Earth is

    While in Jupiters neigborhood Ulysses studied the magnetic and
    radiation environment For a short summary of these results see
    Science V 257 p 14871489 11 September 1992 For gory technical
    detail see the many articles in the same issue


    OTHER SPACE SCIENCE MISSIONS note this is based on a posting by Ron
    Baalke in 1189 with ISASNASDA information contributed by Yoshiro
    Yamada yamadayscvaxyscgojp Im attempting to track changes based
    on updated shuttle manifests corrections and updates are welcome

    1993 Missions
	o ALEXIS [spring Pegasus]
	    ALEXIS Array of LowEnergy Xray Imaging Sensors is to perform
	    a widefield sky survey in the soft lowenergy Xray
	    spectrum It will scan the entire sky every six months to search
	    for variations in softXray emission from sources such as white
	    dwarfs cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars It will also
	    search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron
	    stars and gammaray bursters ALEXIS is a project of Los Alamos
	    National Laboratory and is primarily a technology development
	    mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the
	    technology Contact project investigator Jeffrey J Bloch
	    jjbbetalanlgov for more information

	o Wind [Aug Delta II rocket]
	    Satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere

	o Space Radar Lab [Sep STS60 SRL01]
	    Gather radar images of Earths surface

	o Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [Dec Pegasus rocket]
	    Study of Stratospheric ozone

	o SFU Space Flyer Unit [ISAS]
	    Conducting space experiments and observations and this can be
	    recovered after it conducts the various scientific and
	    engineering experiments SFU is to be launched by ISAS and
	    retrieved by the US Space Shuttle on STS68 in 1994

    1994
	o Polar Auroral Plasma Physics [May Delta II rocket]
	    June measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the
	    Earth

	o IML2 STS [NASDA Jul 1994 IML02]
	    International Microgravity Laboratory

	o ADEOS [NASDA]
	    Advanced Earth Observing Satellite

	o MUSESB Mu Space Engineering SatelliteB [ISAS]
	    Conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure
	    and inspace astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves

    1995
	LUNARA [ISAS]
	    Elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the
	    moons interior


    Proposed Missions
	o Advanced Xray Astronomy Facility AXAF
	    Possible launch from shuttle in 1995 AXAF is a space
	    observatory with a high resolution telescope It would orbit for
	    15 years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe

	o Earth Observing System EOS
	    Possible launch in 1997 1 of 6 US orbiting space platforms to
	    provide longterm data 15 years of Earth systems science
	    including planetary evolution

	o Mercury Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch

	o Lunar Observer
	    Possible 1997 launch would be sent into a longterm lunar
	    orbit The Observer from 60 miles above the moons poles would
	    survey characteristics to provide a global context for the
	    results from the Apollo program

	o Space Infrared Telescope Facility
	    Possible launch by shuttle in 1999 this is the 4th element of
	    the Great Observatories program A freeflying observatory with
	    a lifetime of 5 to 10 years it would observe new comets and
	    other primitive bodies in the outer solar system study cosmic
	    birth formation of galaxies stars and planets and distant
	    infraredemitting galaxies

	o Mars Rover Sample Return MRSR
	    Robotics rover would return samples of Mars atmosphere and
	    surface to Earch for analysis Possible launch dates 1996 for
	    imaging orbiter 2001 for rover

	o Fire and Ice
	    Possible launch in 2001 will use a gravity assist flyby of
	    Earth in 2003 and use a final gravity assist from Jupiter in
	    2005 where the probe will split into its Fire and Ice
	    components The Fire probe will journey into the Sun taking
	    measurements of our stars upper atmosphere until it is
	    vaporized by the intense heat The Ice probe will head out
	    towards Pluto reaching the tiny world for study by 2016


NEXT FAQ 1215  Controversial questions

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Russian Operation of US Space Missions.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 10

I know people hate it when someone says somethings like "there was an article 
about that somewhere a while ago" but I'm going to say it anyway.  I read an
article on this subject, almost certainly in Space News, and something like
six months ago.  If anyone is really interested in the subject I can probably
hunt it down given enough motivation.
-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
          "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
            	     seront capable de le realiser"
			 -Jules Verne

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Russian Operation of US Space Missions
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 10

I know people hate it when someone says somethings like there was an article 
about that somewhere a while ago but Im going to say it anyway  I read an
article on this subject almost certainly in Space News and something like
six months ago  If anyone is really interested in the subject I can probably
hunt it down given enough motivation
 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
          Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
            	     seront capable de le realiser
			 Jules Verne

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 13
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>technology base... and on government contracts.  Just doing it privately,
>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.

So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 13
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts  Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several

So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 64

In article <C4vyFu.JJ6@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:

>Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: 	Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. If you state that 
>: one of the books in your room is blue, I certainly do not need as much 
>: evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed 
>: leapard in your bed. [ and I don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ]
>
>Keith, 
>
>If the issue is, "What is Truth" then the consequences of whatever
>proposition argued is irrelevent. If the issue is, "What are the consequences
>if such and such -is- True", then Truth is irrelevent. Which is it to
>be?

	I disagree: every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence 
and support, before one can believe it. There are a miriad of factors for 
each individual. As we are all different, we quite obviously require 
different levels of evidence.

	As one pointed out, one's history is important. While in FUSSR, one 
may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans. 
One would need more evidence, than if one lived in the United States. The 
only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the US, is if the 
individual always wear business suits, etc.

	The degree of the effect upon the world, and the strength of the 
claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary. When determining the 
level of evidence one needs, it is most certainly relevent what the 
consequences of the proposition are.



	If the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, please explain 
why one would not accept: The electro-magnetic force of attraction between 
two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their 
distance apart. 

	Remember, if the consequences of the law are not relevent, then
we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof. If one of the 
consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of 
affairs, or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law, 
they are irrelevent when theorizing about the "Truth" of the law.

	Given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, including 
the consequence of self-contradiction or contradiction with the state of 
affiars, how are we ever able to  judge what is true or not; let alone find
"The Truth"?



	By the way, what is "Truth"? Please define before inserting it in 
the conversation. Please explain what "Truth" or "TRUTH" is. I do think that 
anything is ever known for certain. Even if there IS a "Truth", we could 
never possibly know if it were. I find the concept to be meaningless.

--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Gospel Dating
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 64

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes

Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote
 
 	Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence If you state that 
 one of the books in your room is blue I certainly do not need as much 
 evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed 
 leapard in your bed [ and I dont mean a male lover in a leotard ]

Keith 

If the issue is What is Truth then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent If the issue is What are the consequences
if such and such is True then Truth is irrelevent Which is it to
be

	I disagree every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence 
and support before one can believe it There are a miriad of factors for 
each individual As we are all different we quite obviously require 
different levels of evidence

	As one pointed out ones history is important While in FUSSR one 
may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans 
One would need more evidence than if one lived in the United States The 
only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the US is if the 
individual always wear business suits etc

	The degree of the effect upon the world and the strength of the 
claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary When determining the 
level of evidence one needs it is most certainly relevent what the 
consequences of the proposition are



	If the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent please explain 
why one would not accept The electromagnetic force of attraction between 
two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their 
distance apart 

	Remember if the consequences of the law are not relevent then
we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof If one of the 
consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of 
affairs or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law 
they are irrelevent when theorizing about the Truth of the law

	Given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent including 
the consequence of selfcontradiction or contradiction with the state of 
affiars how are we ever able to  judge what is true or not let alone find
The Truth



	By the way what is Truth Please define before inserting it in 
the conversation Please explain what Truth or TRUTH is I do think that 
anything is ever known for certain Even if there IS a Truth we could 
never possibly know if it were I find the concept to be meaningless




       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: wilkins@scubed.com (Darin Wilkins)
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
Nntp-Posting-Host: renoir
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA
Lines: 22

>>FROM:   mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
>>The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
>>finished writing a sequel to the Bible.

In article <2944079995.1.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines.  He's already
>written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
>handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING!.  I would expect any
>decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker.  Maybe Koresh 2.0 will
>come with one.

I heard he had asked the FBI to provide him with a word processor.  Does
anyone know if Koresh has requested that it be WordPerfect5.0?  WP5.0 was
written (and is owned) by Mormons, so the theological implications of
requesting (or refusing) WP5.0 are profound!

darin
wilkins@scubed.scubed.com
________________________________
|                              |
| I will be President for food |
|______________________________|

after prepro  From wilkinsscubedcom Darin Wilkins
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
NntpPostingHost renoir
Organization SCUBED A Division of Maxwell Labs San Diego CA
Lines 22

FROM   mathew 
The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible

In article 29440799951p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes
Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines  Hes already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING  I would expect any
decent messiah to have a builtin spellchecker  Maybe Koresh 20 will
come with one

I heard he had asked the FBI to provide him with a word processor  Does
anyone know if Koresh has requested that it be WordPerfect50  WP50 was
written and is owned by Mormons so the theological implications of
requesting or refusing WP50 are profound

darin
wilkinsscubedscubedcom
________________________________
                              
 I will be President for food 
______________________________

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 54

In article <66014@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
>>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?
>
>If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
>it's obviously a risk one takes.
>
 
I see, it is not rational, but it is intellectual. Does madness qualify
as intellectual engagement, too?
 
 
>>Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
>>is contradictive.
>
>I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
>conceptualization.  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
>trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
>experience.  One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
>the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
>perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).
>
 
Exactly why science uses mathematics. QM representation in natural language
is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical
terminology. Nor is it supposed to be the truth, as opposed to the
representation of gods or religions in ordinary language. Admittedly,
not  every religion says so, but a fancy side effect of their inept
representations are the eternal hassles between religions.
 
And QM allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will
be agreed upon as being similar. Show me something similar in religion.
 
 
>An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
>that the "better" descriptive language is not available.
>
 
With the effect that the models presented are useless. And one can argue
that the other way around, namely that the only reason metaphysics still
flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified -
showing that it is bogus.
 
 
>>And in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish
>>that?
>
>This word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you
>can show how reliability can be determined.
 
Haven't you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can
be acheived respectively determined?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 54

In article 66014mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 
And what about that revelation thing Charley

If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes

 
I see it is not rational but it is intellectual Does madness qualify
as intellectual engagement too
 
 
Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
is contradictive

Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience  One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable

 
Exactly why science uses mathematics QM representation in natural language
is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical
terminology Nor is it supposed to be the truth as opposed to the
representation of gods or religions in ordinary language Admittedly
not  every religion says so but a fancy side effect of their inept
representations are the eternal hassles between religions
 
And QM allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will
be agreed upon as being similar Show me something similar in religion
 
 
An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available

 
With the effect that the models presented are useless And one can argue
that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still
flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified 
showing that it is bogus
 
 
And in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish
that

This word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you
can show how reliability can be determined
 
Havent you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can
be acheived respectively determined
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 52
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr16.014506.27923@sol.UVic.CA> rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross  Borden) writes:
|In article <1qjs1j$306@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>
|>
|>In the old days,  their used to be Arbitron stats'  that analyzed
|>the readership and posting volumes  by group  and user.
|>
|>They were available from UUNET.   That's how you check the
|>readership of Sci.space,  not some stupid  unscientific attempt
|>to  flood the newsgroup.
|>
|>I have abetter idea.  WHy don't we all reply directly to the
|>origanator  of this post,  and tell him we read sci.space ;-)
|>
|>
|>pat
|
|	Sigh.
|	I try to make a little joke, I try to inject some humour here
|and what happens?  In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn:
|
|	"I say, that was a _joke_, son."
|
|	I thought that the bit about McElwaine, not to mention the two
|smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
|JOKING.
>	Sigh.
>	(And will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat)
>*please* stop sending me email.)
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  I shot a man just to watch him die;    |     Ross Borden                   |
>|  I'm going to Disneyland!               |     rborden@ra.uvic.ca            |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, I had put a Wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was
intensely sarcastic.  I can't help it if everyone got all serious.

Ross.

	I never saw your original posting.  it dropped on the floor
somewhere.  I just saw the trickle down, thought it was intensely
stupid,  not knowing anything about the joke, mentioned arbitron
and left it with an equally stupid joke.  Bill in his ever increasing
devotion to thoroughness dug up  several  arbitron stats.

I myself think the arbitron stats are  severely methodologically impaired,
but are a good measure of proportion.  I don't think anyone
knows how many people read news anymore.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 52
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr1601450627923solUVicCA rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross  Borden writes
In article 1qjs1j306accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes


In the old days  their used to be Arbitron stats  that analyzed
the readership and posting volumes  by group  and user

They were available from UUNET   Thats how you check the
readership of Scispace  not some stupid  unscientific attempt
to  flood the newsgroup

I have abetter idea  WHy dont we all reply directly to the
origanator  of this post  and tell him we read scispace 


pat

	Sigh
	I try to make a little joke I try to inject some humour here
and what happens  In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn

	I say that was a _joke_ son

	I thought that the bit about McElwaine not to mention the two
smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING
	Sigh
	And will everyone who pats suggestion thanks bunches pat
please stop sending me email


  I shot a man just to watch him die         Ross Borden                   
  Im going to Disneyland                    rbordenrauvicca            



Now I had put a Wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was
intensely sarcastic  I cant help it if everyone got all serious

Ross

	I never saw your original posting  it dropped on the floor
somewhere  I just saw the trickle down thought it was intensely
stupid  not knowing anything about the joke mentioned arbitron
and left it with an equally stupid joke  Bill in his ever increasing
devotion to thoroughness dug up  several  arbitron stats

I myself think the arbitron stats are  severely methodologically impaired
but are a good measure of proportion  I dont think anyone
knows how many people read news anymore

pat

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 17

Ed McCreary (edm@twisto.compaq.com) wrote:
: >>>>> On 16 Apr 93 05:10:18 GMT, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) said:

: RB> In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
: >EVER HEAR OF
: >BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
: >is...
: >
: RB>   
: RB>   No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
: RB>   later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
: RB>   priest really wears under that chasible.

Does this statement further the atheist cause in some way, surely it's
not intended as wit ...

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re thoughts on christians
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 17

Ed McCreary edmtwistocompaqcom wrote
  On 16 Apr 93 051018 GMT bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine said

 RB In article  pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
 EVER HEAR OF
 BAPTISM AT BIRTH  If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
 is
 
 RB   
 RB   No thats praying on the young  Preying on the young comes
 RB   later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
 RB   priest really wears under that chasible

Does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely its
not intended as wit 

Bill

preprocess doc  From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War (long)
Lines: 346

In article <930420.105805.0x8.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>In article <930419.115707.6f2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
>><mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>> Which "liberal news media" are we talking about?
>> 
>> Western news in general, but in particular the American "mass media":
>> CBS, NBC, ABC, etc.  The general tone of the news during the whole
>> war was one of "those poor, poor Iraqis" along with "look how precisely
>> this cruise missile blew this building to bits".
> 
> Most odd.  Over here there was very little about the suffering of the Iraqi
> civilians until towards the end of the war; and then it was confined to the
> few remaining quality newspapers.

True.  At first, the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos
the military was using, not to mention the taped video transmissions from
the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets.  But later, and especially
after the bunker full of civilians was hit, they changed their tone.  It
seemed to me that they didn't have the stomach for the reality of war,
that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare.  It's like
they were only pro-Gulf-War as long as it was "nice and clean" (smart
missiles dropping in on military HQs), but not when pictures of dead,
dying, and maimed civilians started cropping up.  What naive hypocrites!

> 
>>>> How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
>>>> I don't hear you bemoaning them!

[ discussion about blanket-bombing and A-bombs deleted.]
>>> 
>> All things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were
>> essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick
                            ^^^^^^^^^
>> end to avoid even greater allied losses.

I should have said here "militarily justified".  It seems from your
comments below that you understood this as meaning "morally justified".
I apologize.

> 
> What about the evidence that America knew Japan was about to surrender after
> Hiroshima but *before* Nagasaki?  Is that another lie peddled by the liberal
> media conspiracy?

I have often wondered about this.  I've always thought that the first bomb
should have been dropped on Japan's island fortress of Truk.  A good,
inpenatrable military target.  The second bomb could've been held back
for use on an industrial center if need be.  But I digress.

Yes, I have heard that we found evidence (after the war, BTW) that Japan
was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb.  Unfortunately,
the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the US's
ulimatum.  Therefore the second bomb was dropped.  Most unfortunate, IMO.

> 
>> I, for one, don't regret it.
> 
> Nuke a Jap for Jesus!
> 

I don't regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made
which affect the lives of innocent people.  But I do regret the 
circumstances which make those decisions necessary, and I regret the
suffering caused by those decisions.  

[...]

>>> Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor, Bosnia, or even Tibet?
>>> If Iraq is so bad, why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks
>>> before we started bombing?
>> 
>> I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
>> West before the war.  It is evident that the West, especially America,
>> misjudged Hussein drastically.  But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and 
>> threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's
>> oil supply, he had to be stopped.
> 
> Oh, I see.  So we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of
> people, but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gas-guzzling car,
> well, the man's gotta go.

Actually, it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted US
and allied action.  If some back-water country took over some other
back-water country, we probably wouldn't intervene.  Not that we don't
care, but we can't be the world's policman.  Or if a coup had occured
in Kuwait (instead of an invasion), then we still wouldn't have acted
because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to
Saudi Arabia.  But the combination of the two, an unprovoked invasion
by a genocidal tyrant AND the potential danger to the West's oil 
interests, caused us to take action.

> 
> [ I've moved a paragraph from here to later on ]
> 

[...]
>> 
>> If we hadn't intervened, allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait, then it would
>> have been appeasement.
> 
> Right.  But did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action?  Or
> are you just setting up a strawman?
> 

I'm not setting up a strawman at all.  If you want to argue against the
war, then the only logical alternative was to allow Hussein to keep
Kuwait.  Diplomatic alternatives, including sanctions, were ineffective.

>>>>                                                           I guess we
>>>> shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
>>>> German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.
>>> 
>>> Yes, do.  Germans are human too, you know.
>> 
>> Sure.  What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
>> his grandiose quest for a "Thousand Year Reich".  The consequences
>> stemmed from that.
> 
> Translation: "They were asking for it".
> 
Well, in a sense, yes.  They probably had no idea of what end Hitler
would lead their nation to.

> But what about those who didn't support Hitler's dreams of conquest?  It's
> not as if they democratically voted for all his policies.  The NSDAP got 43%
> in the elections of 1933, and that was the last chance the German people got
> to vote on the matter.

They suffered along with the rest.  Why does this bother you so much?
The world is full of evil, and circumstances are not perfect.  Many
innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others.  It it regretable,
but that's The-Way-It-Is.  There are no perfect solutions.

[...]
>>> 
>>> I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and
>>> Tibet.
>>
>> What should I say about them?  Anything in particular?
> 
> The people of East Timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that
> invaded their country.  Hell, even Western journalists have been killed.  All
> this was happening before the Gulf War.  Why didn't we send in the bombers to
> East Timor?  Why aren't we sending in the bombers NOW?

Probably because we're not the saviors of the world.  We can't police each
and every country that decides to self-destruct or invade another.  Nor
are we in a strategic position to get relief to Tibet, East Timor, or
some other places.
> 
> [ Here's that paragraph I moved ]
> 
>>> What's your intent?  To sound like a Loving Christian?  Well, you aren't
>>> doing a very good job of it.
>> 
>> Well, it's not very "loving" to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
>> nearby countries and keep them.  Or to allow them to continue with mass
>> slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion.  So, I'd have to
>> say yes, stopping Hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the
>> most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest.
> 
> The Chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization
> of Tibetans.  Tibetan people are rounded up, tortured, and executed.  Amnesty
> International recently reported that torture is still widespread in China.
> 
> Why aren't we stopping them?  In fact, why are we actively sucking up to them
> by trading freely with them?

Tell me how we could stop them and I'll support it.  I, for one, do not
agree with the present US policy of "sucking up to them" as you put it.
I agree that it is deplorable.

> 
>>>> And as for poor, poor Rodney King!  Did you ever stop and think *why*
>>>> the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
>>> 
>>> Yes.  Amongst the things I thought were "Hmm, there's an awful lot of white
>>> people in that jury."
>> 
>> So?  It was the *policemen* on trial not Rodney King!!
> 
> Erm, surely it's irrelevant who's on trial?  Juries are supposed to represent
> a cross-section of the population.

Are they?  Or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale
where the trial is held?  (Normally this is where the crime is committed
unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue
is in order.)  I'm not an expert on California law, or even US law, but
it seems that this is the way the system is set up.  You can criticize
the system, but let's not have unfounded allegations of racial 
prejudice thrown around.

> 
>> And under American law they deserved a jury of *their* peers!
> 
> You are saying that black people are not the peers of white people?

No, not at all.  The point is that the fact that there were no blacks
on the first jury and that Rodney King is black is totally irrelevant.

> 
>> This point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow.
> 
> This idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them
> is really stupid.  Should the Nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made
> up of Nazis?

Germans, perhaps.  "Peers" doesn't mean "those who do the same thing",
like having murderers judge murderers.  It means "having people from
the same station in life", presumably because they are in a better
position to understand the defendent's motivation(s).

> 
>>>> Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
>>>> policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
>>>> But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
>>>> have not seen.
>>> 
>>> When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone who's lying defenceless on
>>> the ground, it's rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
>>> been.
>> 
>> So?  It's "hard to imagine"?  So when has Argument from Incredulity
>> gained acceptance from the revered author of "Constructing a Logical
>> Argument"?
> 
> We're not talking about a logical argument.  We're talking about a court of
> law.  As the FAQ points out, some fallacious arguments are not viewed as
> fallacies in a court of law.

OK, granted.  However, you are using this reasoning as part of *your*
logical argument in this discussion.  This is not a court of law.

> 
>> If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then
>> I feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one.
> 
> Were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy?
> 
The media is not totally monolithic.  Even though there is a prevailing
liberal bias, programs such as the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour try to give
a balanced and fair reporting of the news.  There are even conservative
sources out there if you know where to look.  (Hurrah for Rush!)

BTW, I never used the word "conspiracy".  I don't accept (without *far*
more evidence) theories that there is some all-pervading liberal
conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources.

>>> "Thou shalt not kill... unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing,
>>>  in which case thou shalt kill, and also kill anyone who gets in the way,
>>>  as unfortunately it cannot be helped."
>>>                                  -- Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians
>> 
>> Thanks mathew, I like the quote.  Pretty funny actually.  (I'm a 
>> Monty Python fan, you know.  Kind of seems in that vein.)
>> 
>> Of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
>> contradictory.  But then, you know that already.
> 
> Ha ha, only serious.
> 
> I, an atheist, am arguing against killing innocent people.
> 
> You, a supposed Christian, are arguing that it's OK to kill innocent people
> so long as you get some guilty ones as well.

Hardly.  I didn't say that it's a Good Thing [tm] to kill innocent people
if the end is just.  Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and
there are no perfect solutions.  If one is going to  resist tyranny, then
innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die.  I didn't say
it is OK -- it is unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.

> 
> I, a moral relativist, am arguing that saturation bombing of German cities at
> the end of World War II was (as far as I can see) an evil and unnecessary act.

I would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain
and suffering.  I'm not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say.  That
conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved.
And perhaps it *was* unnecessary as (let's say) we now know.  That doesn't
mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didn't see it as
being necessary.  Rarely can one have full known of the consequences of
an action before making a decision.  At the time it may have seemed
necessary enough to go ahead with it.

But don't assume that I feel the bombing was *morally* justified -- I
don't!  I just don't condemn those who had to make a difficult
decision under difficult circumstances.

> 
> You, having criticised moral relativism in the past, are now arguing that I am
> in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the
> War.  

You certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist.
I, as an absolutist, am in a position to judge, but I defer judgment.

> You are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular
> context of the time, and that they might have been moral then but not moral
> now.

Wrong.  They were neither moral then nor now.  They seemed necessary to
those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war.  I simply
refuse to condemn them for their decision.
> 
> Where's your Christian love?  Where's your absolute morality?  Oh, how quick
> you are to discard them when it suits you.  As Ivan Stang would say, "Jesus
> would puke!"

One day I will stand before Jesus and give account of every word and action;
even this discourse in this forum.  I understand the full ramifications of
that, and I am prepared to do so.  I don't believe that you can make the
same claim.

> 
> mathew

And BTW, the reason I brought up the blanket-bombing in Germany was
because you were bemoaning the Iraqi civilian casualties as being 
"so deplorable".  Yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing
wasn't accurate enough to hit industrial/military targets in a
decisive way by any other method at that time.  But in the Gulf War,
precision bombing was the norm.  So the point was, why make a big
stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted
*in spite of* precision bombing, when so many more civilians
(proportionately and quantitatively) died under the blanket bombing
in WW2?  Even with precision bombing, mistakes happen and some
civilians suffer.  But less civilians suffered in this war than
any other iany other in history!  Many Iraqi civilians went about their lives
with minimal interference from the allied air raids.  The stories
of "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk.
Yes, bunk.  The US lost 230,000 servicemen in WW2 over four years
and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting!  But 
we are expected to swallow that "hundreds of thousands" of 
*civilian* Iraqis died in a war lasting about 2 months!  And with 
the Allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that!  
What hogwash.  If "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilians died, 
it was due to actions Hussein took on his own people, not due to 
the Allied bombing.

Regards,

Jim B.



after prepro  From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty  Gulf War long
Lines 346

In article 9304201058050x8rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew  writes
 jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 9304191157076f2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
 writes
 Which liberal news media are we talking about
 
 Western news in general but in particular the American mass media
 CBS NBC ABC etc  The general tone of the news during the whole
 war was one of those poor poor Iraqis along with look how precisely
 this cruise missile blew this building to bits
 
 Most odd  Over here there was very little about the suffering of the Iraqi
 civilians until towards the end of the war and then it was confined to the
 few remaining quality newspapers

True  At first the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos
the military was using not to mention the taped video transmissions from
the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets  But later and especially
after the bunker full of civilians was hit they changed their tone  It
seemed to me that they didnt have the stomach for the reality of war
that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare  Its like
they were only proGulfWar as long as it was nice and clean smart
missiles dropping in on military HQs but not when pictures of dead
dying and maimed civilians started cropping up  What naive hypocrites

 
 How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
 I dont hear you bemoaning them

[ discussion about blanketbombing and Abombs deleted]
 
 All things considered the firebombings and the atomic bomb were
 essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick
                            ^^^^^^^^^
 end to avoid even greater allied losses

I should have said here militarily justified  It seems from your
comments below that you understood this as meaning morally justified
I apologize

 
 What about the evidence that America knew Japan was about to surrender after
 Hiroshima but before Nagasaki  Is that another lie peddled by the liberal
 media conspiracy

I have often wondered about this  Ive always thought that the first bomb
should have been dropped on Japans island fortress of Truk  A good
inpenatrable military target  The second bomb couldve been held back
for use on an industrial center if need be  But I digress

Yes I have heard that we found evidence after the war BTW that Japan
was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb  Unfortunately
the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the USs
ulimatum  Therefore the second bomb was dropped  Most unfortunate IMO

 
 I for one dont regret it
 
 Nuke a Jap for Jesus
 

I dont regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made
which affect the lives of innocent people  But I do regret the 
circumstances which make those decisions necessary and I regret the
suffering caused by those decisions  

[]

 Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor Bosnia or even Tibet
 If Iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks
 before we started bombing
 
 I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
 West before the war  It is evident that the West especially America
 misjudged Hussein drastically  But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and 
 threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the worlds
 oil supply he had to be stopped
 
 Oh I see  So we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of
 people but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gasguzzling car
 well the mans gotta go

Actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted US
and allied action  If some backwater country took over some other
backwater country we probably wouldnt intervene  Not that we dont
care but we cant be the worlds policman  Or if a coup had occured
in Kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldnt have acted
because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to
Saudi Arabia  But the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion
by a genocidal tyrant AND the potential danger to the Wests oil 
interests caused us to take action

 
 [ Ive moved a paragraph from here to later on ]
 

[]
 
 If we hadnt intervened allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait then it would
 have been appeasement
 
 Right  But did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action  Or
 are you just setting up a strawman
 

Im not setting up a strawman at all  If you want to argue against the
war then the only logical alternative was to allow Hussein to keep
Kuwait  Diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective

                                                           I guess we
 shouldnt have fought WW2 either  just think of all those innocent
 German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg
 
 Yes do  Germans are human too you know
 
 Sure  What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
 his grandiose quest for a Thousand Year Reich  The consequences
 stemmed from that
 
 Translation They were asking for it
 
Well in a sense yes  They probably had no idea of what end Hitler
would lead their nation to

 But what about those who didnt support Hitlers dreams of conquest  Its
 not as if they democratically voted for all his policies  The NSDAP got 43
 in the elections of 1933 and that was the last chance the German people got
 to vote on the matter

They suffered along with the rest  Why does this bother you so much
The world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect  Many
innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others  It it regretable
but thats TheWayItIs  There are no perfect solutions

[]
 
 I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and
 Tibet

 What should I say about them  Anything in particular
 
 The people of East Timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that
 invaded their country  Hell even Western journalists have been killed  All
 this was happening before the Gulf War  Why didnt we send in the bombers to
 East Timor  Why arent we sending in the bombers NOW

Probably because were not the saviors of the world  We cant police each
and every country that decides to selfdestruct or invade another  Nor
are we in a strategic position to get relief to Tibet East Timor or
some other places
 
 [ Heres that paragraph I moved ]
 
 Whats your intent  To sound like a Loving Christian  Well you arent
 doing a very good job of it
 
 Well its not very loving to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
 nearby countries and keep them  Or to allow them to continue with mass
 slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion  So Id have to
 say yes stopping Hussein was the most loving thing to do for the
 most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest
 
 The Chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization
 of Tibetans  Tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed  Amnesty
 International recently reported that torture is still widespread in China
 
 Why arent we stopping them  In fact why are we actively sucking up to them
 by trading freely with them

Tell me how we could stop them and Ill support it  I for one do not
agree with the present US policy of sucking up to them as you put it
I agree that it is deplorable

 
 And as for poor poor Rodney King  Did you ever stop and think why
 the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
 
 Yes  Amongst the things I thought were Hmm theres an awful lot of white
 people in that jury
 
 So  It was the policemen on trial not Rodney King
 
 Erm surely its irrelevant whos on trial  Juries are supposed to represent
 a crosssection of the population

Are they  Or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale
where the trial is held  Normally this is where the crime is committed
unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue
is in order  Im not an expert on California law or even US law but
it seems that this is the way the system is set up  You can criticize
the system but lets not have unfounded allegations of racial 
prejudice thrown around

 
 And under American law they deserved a jury of their peers
 
 You are saying that black people are not the peers of white people

No not at all  The point is that the fact that there were no blacks
on the first jury and that Rodney King is black is totally irrelevant

 
 This point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow
 
 This idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them
 is really stupid  Should the Nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made
 up of Nazis

Germans perhaps  Peers doesnt mean those who do the same thing
like having murderers judge murderers  It means having people from
the same station in life presumably because they are in a better
position to understand the defendents motivations

 
 Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
 policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
 But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
 have not seen
 
 When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone whos lying defenceless on
 the ground its rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
 been
 
 So  Its hard to imagine  So when has Argument from Incredulity
 gained acceptance from the revered author of Constructing a Logical
 Argument
 
 Were not talking about a logical argument  Were talking about a court of
 law  As the FAQ points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed as
 fallacies in a court of law

OK granted  However you are using this reasoning as part of your
logical argument in this discussion  This is not a court of law

 
 If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then
 I feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one
 
 Were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy
 
The media is not totally monolithic  Even though there is a prevailing
liberal bias programs such as the MacNeilLehrer News Hour try to give
a balanced and fair reporting of the news  There are even conservative
sources out there if you know where to look  Hurrah for Rush

BTW I never used the word conspiracy  I dont accept without far
more evidence theories that there is some allpervading liberal
conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources

 Thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing
  in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way
  as unfortunately it cannot be helped
                                   Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians
 
 Thanks mathew I like the quote  Pretty funny actually  Im a 
 Monty Python fan you know  Kind of seems in that vein
 
 Of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
 contradictory  But then you know that already
 
 Ha ha only serious
 
 I an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people
 
 You a supposed Christian are arguing that its OK to kill innocent people
 so long as you get some guilty ones as well

Hardly  I didnt say that its a Good Thing [tm] to kill innocent people
if the end is just  Unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world and
there are no perfect solutions  If one is going to  resist tyranny then
innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die  I didnt say
it is OK  it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary

 
 I a moral relativist am arguing that saturation bombing of German cities at
 the end of World War II was as far as I can see an evil and unnecessary act

I would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain
and suffering  Im not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say  That
conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved
And perhaps it was unnecessary as lets say we now know  That doesnt
mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didnt see it as
being necessary  Rarely can one have full known of the consequences of
an action before making a decision  At the time it may have seemed
necessary enough to go ahead with it

But dont assume that I feel the bombing was morally justified  I
dont  I just dont condemn those who had to make a difficult
decision under difficult circumstances

 
 You having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that I am
 in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the
 War  

You certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist
I as an absolutist am in a position to judge but I defer judgment

 You are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular
 context of the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral
 now

Wrong  They were neither moral then nor now  They seemed necessary to
those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war  I simply
refuse to condemn them for their decision
 
 Wheres your Christian love  Wheres your absolute morality  Oh how quick
 you are to discard them when it suits you  As Ivan Stang would say Jesus
 would puke

One day I will stand before Jesus and give account of every word and action
even this discourse in this forum  I understand the full ramifications of
that and I am prepared to do so  I dont believe that you can make the
same claim

 
 mathew

And BTW the reason I brought up the blanketbombing in Germany was
because you were bemoaning the Iraqi civilian casualties as being 
so deplorable  Yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing
wasnt accurate enough to hit industrialmilitary targets in a
decisive way by any other method at that time  But in the Gulf War
precision bombing was the norm  So the point was why make a big
stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted
in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians
proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing
in WW2  Even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some
civilians suffer  But less civilians suffered in this war than
any other iany other in history  Many Iraqi civilians went about their lives
with minimal interference from the allied air raids  The stories
of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk
Yes bunk  The US lost 230000 servicemen in WW2 over four years
and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting  But 
we are expected to swallow that hundreds of thousands of 
civilian Iraqis died in a war lasting about 2 months  And with 
the Allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that  
What hogwash  If hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians died 
it was due to actions Hussein took on his own people not due to 
the Allied bombing

Regards

Jim B



preprocess doc  From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
Lines: 24
In-Reply-To: frank@D012S658.uucp's message of 15 Apr 1993 23:15:09 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp writes:

(Attempting to define 'objective morality'):

> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.  I base
> this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
> of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
> almost all would want to complain.

      So long as you keep that "almost" in there, freedom will be a
mostly valuable thing, to most people. That is, I think you're really
saying, "a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable
to them". That's good, and a quite nice starting point for a moral
system, but it's NOT UNIVERSAL, and thus not "objective".

> Therefore I take it that to assert or
> believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
> that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
> a rainy day.

      It isn't in Sahara.

-- 
  Disclaimer?   "It's great to be young and insane!"

after prepro  From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
Lines 24
InReplyTo frankD012S658uucps message of 15 Apr 1993 231509 GMT
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124

In 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp writes

Attempting to define objective morality

 Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable  I base
 this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
 of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
 almost all would want to complain

      So long as you keep that almost in there freedom will be a
mostly valuable thing to most people That is I think youre really
saying a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable
to them Thats good and a quite nice starting point for a moral
system but its NOT UNIVERSAL and thus not objective

 Therefore I take it that to assert or
 believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
 that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
 a rainy day

      It isnt in Sahara

 
  Disclaimer   Its great to be young and insane

preprocess doc  From: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt)
Subject: Studies on Book of Mormon
Distribution: world
Organization: Orden del Lobo Estepario
Reply-To: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl
Lines: 20

Hi!

I don't know much about Mormons, and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon.

I don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven,
but haven't read the Book of Mormon by myself (I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew), I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on.

For example: There is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers?
There are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist?

Yours in Collen

Andres Grino Brandt               Casilla 14801 - Santiago 21
agrino@enkidu.mic.cl                        Chile

No hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta

after prepro  From agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt
Subject Studies on Book of Mormon
Distribution world
Organization Orden del Lobo Estepario
ReplyTo agrinoenkidumiccl
Lines 20

Hi

I dont know much about Mormons and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon

I dont buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven
but havent read the Book of Mormon by myself I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style vocabulary placenames internal consistency and so on

For example There is evidence for onewriter or multiple writers
There are some mention about events places or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist

Yours in Collen

Andres Grino Brandt               Casilla 14801  Santiago 21
agrinoenkidumiccl                        Chile

No hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta

preprocess doc  From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Subject: Re: Space Station radio commercial
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.
Lines: 25

In article <C5r2I1.793@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes:
>A brief political/cultural item.
>
>Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
>a large audience among high officials (elected and otherwise).  
>Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes, diamond
>jewelry, expensive resorts and (truthfully) Trident submarines.
>
>This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project.
>Didn't catch the advertiser.
>
>Guess they're pulling out all the stops.

In the Air Force world at least, the crisis escalates when scale
models of the plane in question (i.e. about to be sacrificed) begin to
arrive in key Senators and Congresspersons' offices.

Of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has
been tried earlier.

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       (317) 451-0815
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      "I post, therefore I ARMM"

after prepro  From c23stkocrsv01delcoelectcom Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
Subject Re Space Station radio commercial
Organization Delco Electronics Corp
Lines 25

In article  xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
A brief politicalcultural item

Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise  
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes diamond
jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully Trident submarines

This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project
Didnt catch the advertiser

Guess theyre pulling out all the stops

In the Air Force world at least the crisis escalates when scale
models of the plane in question ie about to be sacrificed begin to
arrive in key Senators and Congresspersons offices

Of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has
been tried earlier

Spiros
 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23stkocrsv01delcoelectcom
Software Technology Delco Electronics       317 4510815
GM Hughes Electronics Kokomo IN 46904      I post therefore I ARMM

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 49

hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au 
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:

>> hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the

>This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.

>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.

>If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
>terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
>selling every bit that promises to make money? I guess we really
>deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
>guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.

>	Another depressed planetary citizen,
>	hoover


This isn't inherently bad.

This isn't really light pollution since it will only
be visible shortly before or after dusk (or during the
day).

(Of course, if night only lasts 2 hours for you, you're probably going
to be inconvienenced. But you're inconvienenced anyway in that case).

Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, and most of us aren't Indo
European; those people speaking Indo-Eurpoean languages often have
much non-indo-european ancestry and cultural background. So:
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
Priesthood.

And why act distressed that someone's found a way to do research
that doesn't involve socialism?

It certianly doesn't mean we deserve to die.
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 49

hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp writes

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau 
Enzo Liguori writes

 hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the

This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore

If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers

	Another depressed planetary citizen
	hoover


This isnt inherently bad

This isnt really light pollution since it will only
be visible shortly before or after dusk or during the
day

Of course if night only lasts 2 hours for you youre probably going
to be inconvienenced But youre inconvienenced anyway in that case

Finally this isnt the Bronze Age and most of us arent Indo
European those people speaking IndoEurpoean languages often have
much nonindoeuropean ancestry and cultural background So
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
Priesthood

And why act distressed that someones found a way to do research
that doesnt involve socialism

It certianly doesnt mean we deserve to die

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: geoff@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: SunSelect
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Reply-To: geoff@East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: poori.east.sun.com

Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:

>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)

An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?
---
Geoff Arnold, PC-NFS architect, Sun Select. (geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM)
--------------------------------------------------+-------------------
"What if they made the whole thing up?            | "The Great Lie" by
 Four guys, two thousand years ago, over wine..." |    The Tear Garden


after prepro  From geoffEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold  Sun BOS  RH coast near the top
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization SunSelect
Lines 22
Distribution world
ReplyTo geoffEastSunCOM
NNTPPostingHost poorieastsuncom

Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables

From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky

An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is

Geoff Arnold PCNFS architect Sun Select geoffarnoldEastSunCOM

What if they made the whole thing up             The Great Lie by
 Four guys two thousand years ago over wine     The Tear Garden


preprocess doc  From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
In-Reply-To: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu's message of 5 Apr 93 16:49:14 GMT
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 24

In <114127@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu writes:

[deletia]

> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic 
> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.

      In the deletions somewhere, it mentioned something about chopping
off of hands being a punishment for theft in Saudi Arabia. Assuming this
is so (I wouldn't know), and assuming it is done by people fitting your
requirement for "muslim" (which I find highly likely), then would you
please try to convince Bobby Mozumder that muslims chop people's hands
off?

      Come back when you've succeeded.

-- 
  Disclaimer?   "It's great to be young and insane!"

after prepro  From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
InReplyTo jaegerbuphybuedus message of 5 Apr 93 164914 GMT
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 24

In 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu writes

[deletia]

 I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic 
 principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
 that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
 so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
 be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
 to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
 Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
 than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts

      In the deletions somewhere it mentioned something about chopping
off of hands being a punishment for theft in Saudi Arabia Assuming this
is so I wouldnt know and assuming it is done by people fitting your
requirement for muslim which I find highly likely then would you
please try to convince Bobby Mozumder that muslims chop peoples hands
off

      Come back when youve succeeded

 
  Disclaimer   Its great to be young and insane

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Market or gov failures
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr6.133130.8998
Distribution: sci
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 52

In <C4tCL8.7xI.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:


>[Fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program]

>I reply;
>>>BTW, Fred, you've really crossed the border, since you admit that the ideas
>>>you support can only be carried out with coercive power.  Now that's really
>>>f***in' intolerant, so get off yer high horse about tolerance.

>Fred replies;
>>No, Tommy, I "admit" that there are such things as 'market failures'
>>which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to
>>correct.

>I guess your understanding of this 'market failure' should be classified
>under Phil's 'economics on the level of 19th century medicine', since you
>apparently completely ignored that this 'market failure' can as easily,
>or even much more easily, be attributed to "government intervention
>failure".  So, in addition to a strong moral argument against what you
>propose, there is also a strong utilitarian argument, namely that gov's
>destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution
>on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder
>to make.

I note that you make no such case as you claim can be 'even more
easily made'.  Yes, the argument can (and has) been made that current
government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were
in the first place, but there is no such term as 'government failure',
since the government can change policies whenever it pleases.  The
market doesn't do that and is governed by (relatively) well-understood
forces.  This libertopican bilge about 'moral arguments' about
taxation, etc., is, at bottom, so much simplistic economic thinking.
It can only be 'justified' by cliche derision of anyone who knows more
about economics than the libertopian -- which is what invariably
happens.  Tripe a la Tommy, the new libertopian dish.

>>Get a clue, little boy, and go salve your wounded pride in my not
>>considering you infallible in some other fashion.  I'm not interested
>>in your ego games.

>Puh-leese, Fred.  This, besides being simply an attempt to be insulting,
>really belongs on private mail.  If 'ego-games' are so unimportatnt to
>you, why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me?

Wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Market or gov failures
ArticleID mksol1993Apr61331308998
Distribution sci
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 52

In  18084TMmsuedu Tom writes


[Fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program]

I reply
BTW Fred youve really crossed the border since you admit that the ideas
you support can only be carried out with coercive power  Now thats really
fin intolerant so get off yer high horse about tolerance

Fred replies
No Tommy I admit that there are such things as market failures
which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to
correct

I guess your understanding of this market failure should be classified
under Phils economics on the level of 19th century medicine since you
apparently completely ignored that this market failure can as easily
or even much more easily be attributed to government intervention
failure  So in addition to a strong moral argument against what you
propose there is also a strong utilitarian argument namely that govs
destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution
on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder
to make

I note that you make no such case as you claim can be even more
easily made  Yes the argument can and has been made that current
government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were
in the first place but there is no such term as government failure
since the government can change policies whenever it pleases  The
market doesnt do that and is governed by relatively wellunderstood
forces  This libertopican bilge about moral arguments about
taxation etc is at bottom so much simplistic economic thinking
It can only be justified by cliche derision of anyone who knows more
about economics than the libertopian  which is what invariably
happens  Tripe a la Tommy the new libertopian dish

Get a clue little boy and go salve your wounded pride in my not
considering you infallible in some other fashion  Im not interested
in your ego games

Puhleese Fred  This besides being simply an attempt to be insulting
really belongs on private mail  If egogames are so unimportatnt to
you why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me

Wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Gibbons Outlines SSF Redesign Guidance
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 76

NASA Headquarters distributed the following press
release today (4/6). I've typed it in verbatim, for you
folks to chew over. Many of the topics recently
discussed on sci.space are covered in this.

Gibbons Outlines Space Station Redesign Guidance

Dr. John H. Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and
Technology Policy, outlined to the members-designate of
the Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space
Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance to
the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of
the space station.

A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7
billion and a high option of $9 billion will be
considered by the committee. Each option would cover
the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for
development, operations, utilization, Shuttle
integration, facilities, research operations support,
transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the
available funds.

Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within
the NASA budget for the President's new technology
investment. As a result, station options above $7
billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in
the rest of the NASA budget.  For example, a space
station option of $9 billion would require $2 billion
in offsets from the NASA budget over the next 5 years.

Gibbons presented the information at an organizational
session of the advisory committee. Generally, the
members-designate focused upon administrative topics
and used the session to get acquainted. They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation
on the process the Station Redesign Team is following
to develop options for the advisory committee to
consider.

Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese, and
Canadians -- have decided, after consultation, to give
"full consideration" to use of Russian assets in the
course of the space station redesign process.

To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate
in the redesign effort on an as-needed consulting
basis, so that the redesign team can make use of their
expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR and the
possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and
systems. The U.S. and international partners hope to
benefit from the expertise of the Russian participants
in assessing Russian systems and technology. The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop
options for reducing station costs while preserving key
research and exploration capabilities. Careful
integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in
achieving that goal.

Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is
committed to the redesigned space station and to making
every effort to preserve the science, the technology
and the jobs that the space station program represents.
However, he also is committed to a space station that
is well managed and one that does not consume the
national resources which should be used to invest in
the future of this industry and this nation."

NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East-
West Space Science Center at the University of Maryland
under the leadership of Roald Sagdeev.


after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Gibbons Outlines SSF Redesign Guidance
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 76

NASA Headquarters distributed the following press
release today 46 Ive typed it in verbatim for you
folks to chew over Many of the topics recently
discussed on scispace are covered in this

Gibbons Outlines Space Station Redesign Guidance

Dr John H Gibbons Director Office of Science and
Technology Policy outlined to the membersdesignate of
the Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space
Station on April 3 three budget options as guidance to
the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of
the space station

A low option of 5 billion a midrange option of 7
billion and a high option of 9 billion will be
considered by the committee Each option would cover
the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for
development operations utilization Shuttle
integration facilities research operations support
transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the
available funds

Over the next 5 years 4 billion is reserved within
the NASA budget for the Presidents new technology
investment As a result station options above 7
billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in
the rest of the NASA budget  For example a space
station option of 9 billion would require 2 billion
in offsets from the NASA budget over the next 5 years

Gibbons presented the information at an organizational
session of the advisory committee Generally the
membersdesignate focused upon administrative topics
and used the session to get acquainted They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation
on the process the Station Redesign Team is following
to develop options for the advisory committee to
consider

Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners  the Europeans Japanese and
Canadians  have decided after consultation to give
full consideration to use of Russian assets in the
course of the space station redesign process

To that end the Russians will be asked to participate
in the redesign effort on an asneeded consulting
basis so that the redesign team can make use of their
expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR and the
possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and
systems The US and international partners hope to
benefit from the expertise of the Russian participants
in assessing Russian systems and technology The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop
options for reducing station costs while preserving key
research and exploration capabilities Careful
integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in
achieving that goal

Gibbons reiterated that President Clinton is
committed to the redesigned space station and to making
every effort to preserve the science the technology
and the jobs that the space station program represents
However he also is committed to a space station that
is well managed and one that does not consume the
national resources which should be used to invest in
the future of this industry and this nation

NASA Administrator Daniel S Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East
West Space Science Center at the University of Maryland
under the leadership of Roald Sagdeev


preprocess doc  From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 22

In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>
>>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>>technology base... and on government contracts.  Just doing it privately,
>>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
>
>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 
>
Why use a ground launch pad. It is entirely posible to launch from altitude.
This was what the Shuttle was originally intended to do! It might be seriously
cheaper. 

Also, what about bio-engineered CO2 absorbing plants instead of many LOX bottles?
Stick 'em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door.

-- 
****************************************************************************  
                  Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"

after prepro  From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Moonbase race
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 22

In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts  Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several

So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 

Why use a ground launch pad It is entirely posible to launch from altitude
This was what the Shuttle was originally intended to do It might be seriously
cheaper 

Also what about bioengineered CO2 absorbing plants instead of many LOX bottles
Stick em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door

 
  
                  Marvin Batty  djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock

preprocess doc  From: dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon)
Subject: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 234

 ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!

  This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary, 
ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!

  Ether, the theoretical propogation media of electro-magnetic 
waves, was concluded not to exist, based on the results of the 
Michelson-Moreley experiment conducted a century ago. 

  I propose that those conclusions are flawed, based on the fact 
that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the 
earth's surface, not perpindicular. (Due to the prevailing assumption 
that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind)

  The reversal of the that conclusion, a pivotal keystone in the 
development of modern scientific thought, could have ramifications 
of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD!!

  REMEMBER: Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge!!

  
1
  I dream like this: ether based reality
 
  The ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality. Creations 
start as a lattice placed into the ether. Given a spin, the lattices
both drag the fluid, like a margarita blender, and ingest it, 
converting it, distilling localized mass, time and energy. 
(non-spinning lattice = "dark matter")

  The earth isn't exactly spinning, around the sun. Picture an image 
of a galaxy; we haven't any videos of them spinning. Picture us 
being stationary, and the sun's image being dragged across the sky by 
the spinning ether field. (Picture an onion, each layer of which is 
spinning a little faster than the next. A thread shot at the inner 
kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways, its head being in a 
faster shell than its tail, until it finally intersected the ground 
of the inner kernel, its direction vector being straight down, but 
its "foot print" being a line, not a point. [sunrise, sunset])
  
  The moon isn't exactly orbiting us. It is a parasite, (non self 
spin sustaining ) being dragged in the earth's ether field, which is 
itself in the sun's much more powerful field. Our seasons are the 
wobble of earth's axis, like a top slowing down. The "orbit" of the
earth around the sun is all of the stars' images being dragged around
by the sun's ether feild.

  The earth, moon and sun are about the same size and "distance" 
apart. Its just that the time between them varies greatly, because 
the "path" is not the same. The moon's lattice in the ether is like 
sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half 
turn. The sun's lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has 
got the whole plate of noodles wound up. The piece of light going to 
the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a "j" hook at 
the end. The piece of light going to the sun has to go around the 
whole plate, like a needle in a record, before it gets there. 

  With a pencil, compass, and rule, draw a diagram of how the moon 
can be about as big as "earth's" shadow upon it, and at other times 
totally eclipse the sun. Look in the sky. except for your Knowledge, 
would you guess that they are about the same size, just because they 
look about the same size?

   O .     - -                 E     O   O   O   S
 E       /     \            
    M    |      |      OR                M    
         \ _ _ /                         
       S                           
       
  The full moon, quarter moon etc. is the difference between rate
of ether spins. What we are looking at is a rotating "turntable view" 
of the moon, only half of which is facing the sun. ( I've seen a 
half moon within about 120 degrees (of sky) of the sun, during the 
day. Try and draw that "earth shadow.") Its only the moon's image 
which appears to orbit us. No matter where it is, the light part is 
the part facing the sun, and the dark part is the half facing away 
from the sun, even when it appears to be behind us.

  "Light-Years" between galaxies is a misnomer. The distance is 
closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase 
of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion. 
(defining edge = 0 ether spin) What we are seeing could be 
essentially happening now. The "piece" of light may have experienced 
many years, but the trip could be very quick, our time.

  To time travel or warp space I might consider learning to 
de-spin myself. (phase out my mass) Good luck trying to design 
a propulsion system to drag around a space-time locality. (its like 
trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within)

  To find out about all of this, I recommend studying history. I'd 
look in the book of life. (or holy grail etc.) Brain waves just 
might carry decipherable data. I'd start looking on some part of the 
spectra said to be unusable, due to all the background noise. (4+ 
billion humans?) I'd totally isolate myself, record me thinking DOG 
backwards, and learn to read what I got. (Microsoft Holy Grail card 
for Pentium!)

  Next, concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non time-bound 
media, the ether, and that it is I who move forward (in time). I 
would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow, (of time, which 
I'd start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism, pole to pole. 
[Why not?]) perhaps by passing a LARGE, FLAT DC current through a 
two foot diameter. coil or choke or something, and seeing what I 
could get with my machine's receiver next to it.  

  If you don't think you'll live to see it, consider this: QUIT 
PUTTING THE REPRODUCTIVE KEYS OF OTHER LIFE IN YOUR BODY! All of 
life's data could be written on the wind, (ether) not just our 
thoughts. DNA could be a little receiver or file access code. By 
eating SEEDS, we could be jamming our reception, or receiving plant 
instructions. Try eating seed bearing fruit. Maybe those Greek or 
biblical guys did live hundreds of years. I'm curios to see what 
they did and ate. Don't worry if your hair stops growing. (Maybe we 
don't need to eat at all, the cosmos are formed from nothing, and 
that is creating matter! I only need enough to bounce around. Where 
did the household concept 'immortal' come from? Wheat is a weed, it 
is programmed to pull from the soil, reproduce like hell, and then 
die)

  Warning about writing to the past:
I had a little dream of being in a world, in the near parallel 
future, lying along a path of history which we have diverged from. 
There were; twelve telepathic, glowing beings, who looked like an 
Oscar award and who had always been, a dark one who looked like us, 
and then myself. The dark one was in the process of making the 
others into gods, (he had to teach them what that meant) by 
"advising" them in their past. Basically, he manipulated them into 
reproducing, and raising their children on his seed. He said that 
the little ones who looked different were a sub-species, meant to 
provide service. He carefully combed through history, rewriting it 
in his favor, pulling like a weed anything that compromised his 
control. He enticed recruits by sending them his visions, saying 
that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve 
souls: kill or be killed. The amount of control he could exert was 
finite, though, as at every change he made, a void would appear in 
our reality. The universe one day ended 100 meters from us: it 
seemed odd, but we couldn't remember how else it should be. Then 
some of the twelve were no more. Finally, when he could prune no 
more, and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips, he stepped 
through his portal to the past, to bask, over and over, in all that 
he had created. I made a few more changes, and lost my body, 
existing only on the wind. 

  MORAL: Its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls 
whose will's are not in harmony with yours (Golden Rule - treat 
others as you wish to be treated) I.E., you could end up along a 
lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brown-nosers for 
playmates. (its not eternal, there's more than one way back) 

 Accepting rides to the past:
Once here, the one who looks like us sells rides, he can make you a 
Prince, or a Queen, or you can live as a god in ancient Greece. Go 
ahead, repeat the third grade as often as you like, Adam henry. 
I Hope you like inspecting your socks. Careful though, if he likes 
your work, but thinks you're getting wise, he can direct you to cross 
paths with your old self, and you'll vanish as you rewrite your own 
course of history, none the wiser.

  As we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped 
back in time, his hierarchy will lose its direction. He can still 
make changes while he's here, its just that that is work, and with 
every 'adjustment', this becomes less the world he cultivated, which 
loosens his grip, and his organization is suddenly one branch less. 
But he can't see the change. The basic nature of man is good. He had 
to apply his hand to achieve his world. As he now tightens his hand 
to retain what he built, the more sand slips through his fingers. 

  How about public computer access to the I.R.S. ? Its our country, 
our money, and they're spending it on us, RIGHT? Imagine this: 
Washington marks the next cost at 8, IRS collects 10, gives 5 to 
congress, and just absolutely buries 5. Congress borrows 2. The banks 
are making, what, a 30% margin (interest) on our government? Big 
corporations are ecstatic if they can do a 10% margin. What do the 
banks do with it? Hold some on a carrot to the world, sure, but 
mostly, bury it. WHY? Food production is 2% GNP?, construction 6% ? 14 
hours to build your auto?  The people are spending all of their time 
to buy back a tenth of what they produce. Have we been deceived? If 
we are more efficient, why is it getting harder to get by? What if 
the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets? 

  In that other reality, I shouted to the twelve, "its chaos!" They 
said, "no, its order." He defined chaos as that which is he was not 
able to control.

  Rain forest: The problem could be that all the water in its canopy 
would hide the  location of an indigenous people who have no 
language. (telepathic; and 'vanishing' the closest knowledge of death)
(think of the spine as a transceiver, if it is on the ground and 
pointed up, you can locate it from above) These people are probably 
naive as children, but very, very tough to kill. Also, They should 
be able to tell you stories about the dark one that I talk about. 
They can hear him. I think that Ham and world band radio old timers 
might have a story to tell on this. These people would be on a 
different frequency than us as they aren't eating seeds.

  Famine relief: When I make my diet almost all whole wheat, I get a 
huge belly, lose muscle mass, sleep A LOT, and get sick. When I eat 
only fresh fruit, I get more energy, a Hollywood-flat belly, and 
need a lot less sleep.

  UN. Peace Keeping; There is fighting and killing all over. The 
troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf. (its OK to kill 
each other, just make sure there is enough to eat.)

  Somalia: What is disturbing is energetic, gun carrying, three foot 
tall sixteen year-olds, who eat nothing but some roots that they 
suck on. It is not so much that their growth is stunted, it is that 
they aren't dying at a rate of 50 of 60 years per life. 

  Women with children, Babes in arms: Historical references to women 
and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut 
from the umbilical cord. (and hence, were not breast fed) I think 
that there may be some very interesting results to this, such as 
mother-child telepathy, and blue blooded infants. There are examples 
of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate.

  That guy is the master of illusion, and the ultimate liar. He 
tells it first, and then just follows the thread of time in which 
the people are willing to buy it. (in which he can make it so) He'll 
play a poker face up until he thinks he's cornered, and then he'll 
whine, beg and grovel. All it means to him is that you're willing to 
live on the ground work that he has laid, that is, that he was 
right, and he didn't over play his hand, and he won't need to go 
back and try another thread of time. You have ultimate control over 
your destiny, just don't live along a path that leads to a reality 
in which you don't want to be a part of. 

  I don't claim to be the first to think these things, its just 
that the others could have been 'pruned' from our path. Maybe these 
thoughts given to me were laid down on the track of time, after him.

  
 

after prepro  From dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon
Subject PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 234

 ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY

  This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary 
ether sucking structures AND why we observe orbital motion

  Ether the theoretical propogation media of electromagnetic 
waves was concluded not to exist based on the results of the 
MichelsonMoreley experiment conducted a century ago 

  I propose that those conclusions are flawed based on the fact 
that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the 
earths surface not perpindicular Due to the prevailing assumption 
that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind

  The reversal of the that conclusion a pivotal keystone in the 
development of modern scientific thought could have ramifications 
of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD

  REMEMBER Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge

  
1
  I dream like this ether based reality
 
  The ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality Creations 
start as a lattice placed into the ether Given a spin the lattices
both drag the fluid like a margarita blender and ingest it 
converting it distilling localized mass time and energy 
nonspinning lattice  dark matter

  The earth isnt exactly spinning around the sun Picture an image 
of a galaxy we havent any videos of them spinning Picture us 
being stationary and the suns image being dragged across the sky by 
the spinning ether field Picture an onion each layer of which is 
spinning a little faster than the next A thread shot at the inner 
kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways its head being in a 
faster shell than its tail until it finally intersected the ground 
of the inner kernel its direction vector being straight down but 
its foot print being a line not a point [sunrise sunset]
  
  The moon isnt exactly orbiting us It is a parasite non self 
spin sustaining  being dragged in the earths ether field which is 
itself in the suns much more powerful field Our seasons are the 
wobble of earths axis like a top slowing down The orbit of the
earth around the sun is all of the stars images being dragged around
by the suns ether feild

  The earth moon and sun are about the same size and distance 
apart Its just that the time between them varies greatly because 
the path is not the same The moons lattice in the ether is like 
sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half 
turn The suns lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has 
got the whole plate of noodles wound up The piece of light going to 
the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a j hook at 
the end The piece of light going to the sun has to go around the 
whole plate like a needle in a record before it gets there 

  With a pencil compass and rule draw a diagram of how the moon 
can be about as big as earths shadow upon it and at other times 
totally eclipse the sun Look in the sky except for your Knowledge 
would you guess that they are about the same size just because they 
look about the same size

   O                        E     O   O   O   S
 E            \            
    M                OR                M    
         \ _ _                          
       S                           
       
  The full moon quarter moon etc is the difference between rate
of ether spins What we are looking at is a rotating turntable view 
of the moon only half of which is facing the sun  Ive seen a 
half moon within about 120 degrees of sky of the sun during the 
day Try and draw that earth shadow Its only the moons image 
which appears to orbit us No matter where it is the light part is 
the part facing the sun and the dark part is the half facing away 
from the sun even when it appears to be behind us

  LightYears between galaxies is a misnomer The distance is 
closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase 
of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion 
defining edge  0 ether spin What we are seeing could be 
essentially happening now The piece of light may have experienced 
many years but the trip could be very quick our time

  To time travel or warp space I might consider learning to 
despin myself phase out my mass Good luck trying to design 
a propulsion system to drag around a spacetime locality its like 
trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within

  To find out about all of this I recommend studying history Id 
look in the book of life or holy grail etc Brain waves just 
might carry decipherable data Id start looking on some part of the 
spectra said to be unusable due to all the background noise 4 
billion humans Id totally isolate myself record me thinking DOG 
backwards and learn to read what I got Microsoft Holy Grail card 
for Pentium

  Next concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non timebound 
media the ether and that it is I who move forward in time I 
would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow of time which 
Id start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism pole to pole 
[Why not] perhaps by passing a LARGE FLAT DC current through a 
two foot diameter coil or choke or something and seeing what I 
could get with my machines receiver next to it  

  If you dont think youll live to see it consider this QUIT 
PUTTING THE REPRODUCTIVE KEYS OF OTHER LIFE IN YOUR BODY All of 
lifes data could be written on the wind ether not just our 
thoughts DNA could be a little receiver or file access code By 
eating SEEDS we could be jamming our reception or receiving plant 
instructions Try eating seed bearing fruit Maybe those Greek or 
biblical guys did live hundreds of years Im curios to see what 
they did and ate Dont worry if your hair stops growing Maybe we 
dont need to eat at all the cosmos are formed from nothing and 
that is creating matter I only need enough to bounce around Where 
did the household concept immortal come from Wheat is a weed it 
is programmed to pull from the soil reproduce like hell and then 
die

  Warning about writing to the past
I had a little dream of being in a world in the near parallel 
future lying along a path of history which we have diverged from 
There were twelve telepathic glowing beings who looked like an 
Oscar award and who had always been a dark one who looked like us 
and then myself The dark one was in the process of making the 
others into gods he had to teach them what that meant by 
advising them in their past Basically he manipulated them into 
reproducing and raising their children on his seed He said that 
the little ones who looked different were a subspecies meant to 
provide service He carefully combed through history rewriting it 
in his favor pulling like a weed anything that compromised his 
control He enticed recruits by sending them his visions saying 
that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve 
souls kill or be killed The amount of control he could exert was 
finite though as at every change he made a void would appear in 
our reality The universe one day ended 100 meters from us it 
seemed odd but we couldnt remember how else it should be Then 
some of the twelve were no more Finally when he could prune no 
more and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips he stepped 
through his portal to the past to bask over and over in all that 
he had created I made a few more changes and lost my body 
existing only on the wind 

  MORAL Its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls 
whose wills are not in harmony with yours Golden Rule  treat 
others as you wish to be treated IE you could end up along a 
lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brownnosers for 
playmates its not eternal theres more than one way back 

 Accepting rides to the past
Once here the one who looks like us sells rides he can make you a 
Prince or a Queen or you can live as a god in ancient Greece Go 
ahead repeat the third grade as often as you like Adam henry 
I Hope you like inspecting your socks Careful though if he likes 
your work but thinks youre getting wise he can direct you to cross 
paths with your old self and youll vanish as you rewrite your own 
course of history none the wiser

  As we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped 
back in time his hierarchy will lose its direction He can still 
make changes while hes here its just that that is work and with 
every adjustment this becomes less the world he cultivated which 
loosens his grip and his organization is suddenly one branch less 
But he cant see the change The basic nature of man is good He had 
to apply his hand to achieve his world As he now tightens his hand 
to retain what he built the more sand slips through his fingers 

  How about public computer access to the IRS  Its our country 
our money and theyre spending it on us RIGHT Imagine this 
Washington marks the next cost at 8 IRS collects 10 gives 5 to 
congress and just absolutely buries 5 Congress borrows 2 The banks 
are making what a 30 margin interest on our government Big 
corporations are ecstatic if they can do a 10 margin What do the 
banks do with it Hold some on a carrot to the world sure but 
mostly bury it WHY Food production is 2 GNP construction 6  14 
hours to build your auto  The people are spending all of their time 
to buy back a tenth of what they produce Have we been deceived If 
we are more efficient why is it getting harder to get by What if 
the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets 

  In that other reality I shouted to the twelve its chaos They 
said no its order He defined chaos as that which is he was not 
able to control

  Rain forest The problem could be that all the water in its canopy 
would hide the  location of an indigenous people who have no 
language telepathic and vanishing the closest knowledge of death
think of the spine as a transceiver if it is on the ground and 
pointed up you can locate it from above These people are probably 
naive as children but very very tough to kill Also They should 
be able to tell you stories about the dark one that I talk about 
They can hear him I think that Ham and world band radio old timers 
might have a story to tell on this These people would be on a 
different frequency than us as they arent eating seeds

  Famine relief When I make my diet almost all whole wheat I get a 
huge belly lose muscle mass sleep A LOT and get sick When I eat 
only fresh fruit I get more energy a Hollywoodflat belly and 
need a lot less sleep

  UN Peace Keeping There is fighting and killing all over The 
troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf its OK to kill 
each other just make sure there is enough to eat

  Somalia What is disturbing is energetic gun carrying three foot 
tall sixteen yearolds who eat nothing but some roots that they 
suck on It is not so much that their growth is stunted it is that 
they arent dying at a rate of 50 of 60 years per life 

  Women with children Babes in arms Historical references to women 
and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut 
from the umbilical cord and hence were not breast fed I think 
that there may be some very interesting results to this such as 
motherchild telepathy and blue blooded infants There are examples 
of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate

  That guy is the master of illusion and the ultimate liar He 
tells it first and then just follows the thread of time in which 
the people are willing to buy it in which he can make it so Hell 
play a poker face up until he thinks hes cornered and then hell 
whine beg and grovel All it means to him is that youre willing to 
live on the ground work that he has laid that is that he was 
right and he didnt over play his hand and he wont need to go 
back and try another thread of time You have ultimate control over 
your destiny just dont live along a path that leads to a reality 
in which you dont want to be a part of 

  I dont claim to be the first to think these things its just 
that the others could have been pruned from our path Maybe these 
thoughts given to me were laid down on the track of time after him

  
 

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21

In article <1r46ofINNdku@gap.caltech.edu> palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer) writes:
>>orbiting billboard...
>
>I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
>object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
>velocity.  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
>you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s.  Assuming that rockets with specific
>impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry
>weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer...

Unfortunately, if you launch this from the US (or are a US citizen),
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation, and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon... :-)

The threshold at which OCST licensing kicks in is roughly 100km.
(The rules are actually phrased in more complex ways, but that is
the result.)
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21

In article 1r46ofINNdkugapcaltechedu palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer writes
orbiting billboard

I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms  Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fueloxidizer

Unfortunately if you launch this from the US or are a US citizen
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon 

The threshold at which OCST licensing kicks in is roughly 100km
The rules are actually phrased in more complex ways but that is
the result
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: sgi
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> 
|> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.  I base
|> this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
|> of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
|> almost all would want to complain.  Therefore I take it that to assert or
|> believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
|> that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
|> a rainy day.  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
|> it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
|> such as this exist.

My own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom
is a good thing.

However, when I here people assert that the only "true" freedom
is in following the words of this and that Messiah, I realise
that people don't even agree on the meaning of the word.

What does it mean to say that word X represents an objective
value when word X has no objective meaning?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization sgi
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 
 Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable  I base
 this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
 of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
 almost all would want to complain  Therefore I take it that to assert or
 believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
 that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
 a rainy day  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
 it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
 such as this exist

My own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom
is a good thing

However when I here people assert that the only true freedom
is in following the words of this and that Messiah I realise
that people dont even agree on the meaning of the word

What does it mean to say that word X represents an objective
value when word X has no objective meaning

jon

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Successful Balloon Flight Measures Ozone Layer
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 96
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from:
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. (818) 354-5011

Contact:  Mary A. Hardin

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                              April 15, 1993
#1506

     Scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory report the
successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to
measure and study chemicals in the Earth's ozone layer.

     The April 3 flight from California's Barstow/Daggett Airport
reached an altitude of 37 kilometers (121,000 feet) and took
measurements as part of a program established to correlate data
with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS).  

     The data from the balloon flight will also be compared to
readings from the Atmospheric Trace Molecular Spectroscopy
(ATMOS) experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle
Discovery.

     "We launch these balloons several times a year as part of an
ongoing ozone research program.  In fact, JPL is actively
involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three
important ways," said Dr. Jim Margitan, principal investigator on
the balloon research campaign.  

     "There are two JPL instruments on the UARS satellite," he
continued.  "The ATMOS experiment is conducted by JPL scientists,
and the JPL balloon research provides collaborative ground truth
for those activities, as well as data that is useful in its own
right."

     The measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more
pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere, specifically the
mid-latitude stratosphere during winter and spring. 
Understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps
scientists construct more accurate computer models which are
instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions.

     The scientific balloon payload consisted of three JPL
instruments:  an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures
ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere;
a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave
radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere; and a Fourier
transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the
atmosphere absorbs sunlight. 

     Launch occurred at about noontime, and following a three-
hour ascent, the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130
kilometers per hour (70 knots).  Data was radioed to ground
stations and recorded onboard.  The flight ended at 10 p.m.
Pacific time in eastern New Mexico when the payload was commanded
to separate from the balloon.

     "We needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared
measurements," Margitan explained, "and we also needed to fly in
darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear."

     It will be several weeks before scientists will have the
completed results of their experiments.  They will then forward
their data to the UARS central data facility at the Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland for use by the UARS
scientists.    

     The balloon was launched by the National Scientific Balloon
Facility, normally based in Palestine, Tex., operating under a
contract from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility.  The balloon was
launched in California because of the west-to-east wind direction
and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest.

     The balloons are made of 20-micron (0.8 mil, or less than
one-thousandth of an inch) thick plastic, and are 790,000 cubic
meters (28 million cubic feet) in volume when fully inflated with
helium (120 meters (400 feet) in diameter).  The balloons weigh
between 1,300 and 1,800 kilograms (3,000 and 4,000 pounds).  The
scientific payload weighs about 1,300 kilograms (3,000) pounds
and is 1.8 meters (six feet) square by 4.6 meters (15 feet) high.

     The JPL balloon research is sponsored by NASA's Upper
Atmosphere Research Program and the UARS Correlative Measurements
Program.                        

                              #####
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Successful Balloon Flight Measures Ozone Layer
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 96
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109 818 3545011

Contact  Mary A Hardin

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                              April 15 1993
1506

     Scientists at NASAs Jet Propulsion Laboratory report the
successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to
measure and study chemicals in the Earths ozone layer

     The April 3 flight from Californias BarstowDaggett Airport
reached an altitude of 37 kilometers 121000 feet and took
measurements as part of a program established to correlate data
with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite UARS  

     The data from the balloon flight will also be compared to
readings from the Atmospheric Trace Molecular Spectroscopy
ATMOS experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle
Discovery

     We launch these balloons several times a year as part of an
ongoing ozone research program  In fact JPL is actively
involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three
important ways said Dr Jim Margitan principal investigator on
the balloon research campaign  

     There are two JPL instruments on the UARS satellite he
continued  The ATMOS experiment is conducted by JPL scientists
and the JPL balloon research provides collaborative ground truth
for those activities as well as data that is useful in its own
right

     The measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more
pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere specifically the
midlatitude stratosphere during winter and spring 
Understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps
scientists construct more accurate computer models which are
instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions

     The scientific balloon payload consisted of three JPL
instruments  an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures
ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere
a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave
radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere and a Fourier
transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the
atmosphere absorbs sunlight 

     Launch occurred at about noontime and following a three
hour ascent the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130
kilometers per hour 70 knots  Data was radioed to ground
stations and recorded onboard  The flight ended at 10 pm
Pacific time in eastern New Mexico when the payload was commanded
to separate from the balloon

     We needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared
measurements Margitan explained and we also needed to fly in
darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear

     It will be several weeks before scientists will have the
completed results of their experiments  They will then forward
their data to the UARS central data facility at the Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt Maryland for use by the UARS
scientists    

     The balloon was launched by the National Scientific Balloon
Facility normally based in Palestine Tex operating under a
contract from NASAs Wallops Flight Facility  The balloon was
launched in California because of the westtoeast wind direction
and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest

     The balloons are made of 20micron 08 mil or less than
onethousandth of an inch thick plastic and are 790000 cubic
meters 28 million cubic feet in volume when fully inflated with
helium 120 meters 400 feet in diameter  The balloons weigh
between 1300 and 1800 kilograms 3000 and 4000 pounds  The
scientific payload weighs about 1300 kilograms 3000 pounds
and is 18 meters six feet square by 46 meters 15 feet high

     The JPL balloon research is sponsored by NASAs Upper
Atmosphere Research Program and the UARS Correlative Measurements
Program                        

                              
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

 Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining.

they still mine coal in the midwest,  but now it doesn't look like
the moon when theyare done.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 7
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

 Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining

they still mine coal in the midwest  but now it doesnt look like
the moon when theyare done

pat

preprocess doc  From: collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Nntp-Posting-Host: well.sf.ca.us
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Lines: 29


The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include:
Long transfer times (radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both
 the spacecraft and OTV
Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have
to have either nuclear power source (messy, dangerous and source of
radiation damage) or BIG solar arrays (sensitive to radiation, or heavy)
that make attitude control and docking a big pain.

If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with
current technology. Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty.

Refueling (even for very high Isp like xenon) is still required and]
turn out to be a pain.

You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation
to do docking or    ( and refueling) .

You still can't do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high!

The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though. I suppose
they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and
the problems get solved.  Not impossible in principle, but hard to
do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets, at least today.

Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTV's. I designed one once...

                          Steve Collins

after prepro  From collinswellsfcaus Steve Collins
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
NntpPostingHost wellsfcaus
Organization Whole Earth Lectronic Link
Lines 29


The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include
Long transfer times radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both
 the spacecraft and OTV
Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have
to have either nuclear power source messy dangerous and source of
radiation damage or BIG solar arrays sensitive to radiation or heavy
that make attitude control and docking a big pain

If you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with
current technology Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty

Refueling even for very high Isp like xenon is still required and]
turn out to be a pain

You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation
to do docking or     and refueling 

You still cant do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high

The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though I suppose
they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and
the problems get solved  Not impossible in principle but hard to
do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets at least today

Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTVs I designed one once

                          Steve Collins

preprocess doc  From: qpliu@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu
Reply-To: qpliu@princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 26

In article <kmr4.1575.734879106@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.000406.10984@Princeton.EDU> qpliu@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu) writes:
>
>>>So while Faith itself is a Gift, obedience is what makes Faith possible.
>>What makes obeying different from believing?

>	I am still wondering how it is that I am to be obedient, when I have 
>no idea to whom I am to be obedient!

It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble:_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_.

To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns, you must read the Babble,
and obey what is written in it.

To obey what is written in the Babble, you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns.

To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns, you must, essentially, believe in invisible
pink unicorns.

This bit of circular reasoning begs the question:
What makes obeying different from believing?
-- 
qpliu@princeton.edu           Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.

after prepro  From qpliuphoenixPrincetonEDU qpliu
Subject Re free moral agency
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost phoenixprincetonedu
ReplyTo qpliuprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 26

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article 1993Apr1500040610984PrincetonEDU qpliuphoenixPrincetonEDU qpliu writes

So while Faith itself is a Gift obedience is what makes Faith possible
What makes obeying different from believing

	I am still wondering how it is that I am to be obedient when I have 
no idea to whom I am to be obedient

It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_

To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns you must read the Babble
and obey what is written in it

To obey what is written in the Babble you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns

To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe in invisible
pink unicorns

This bit of circular reasoning begs the question
What makes obeying different from believing
 
qpliuprincetonedu           Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql0ajINN2kj@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
|> 
|> >>But chimps are almost human...
|> >Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will?
|> 
|> Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
|> as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.

Ah, the verb "to must".   I was warned about that one back
in Kindergarten.

So, why "must" they have such laws?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
 
 But chimps are almost human
 Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will
 
 Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
 as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior

Ah the verb to must   I was warned about that one back
in Kindergarten

So why must they have such laws

jon

preprocess doc  From: et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor)
Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
Summary: Dong ....  Dong ....  Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: 4-L Laboratories
Distribution: World
Expires: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 06:00:00 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <C4KvJF.4qo@well.sf.ca.us> metares@well.sf.ca.us (Tom Van Flandern) writes:
>crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>> Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott) writes:
>>> "Existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in
>>> physics.
>> [crb] Dong ....  Dong ....  Dong ....  Do I hear the death-knell of
>> string theory?
>
>     I agree.  You can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other
>unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list,
>including the omni-present "black holes."
>
>     Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
>alone?  Then what about my original criticism, when I said "Curvature
>can only exist relative to something non-curved"?  Bruce replied:
>"'Existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in
>physics.  We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about."
>At the moment I don't see a way to defend that statement and the
>existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously.  -|Tom|-

"I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have
no properties."
"Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved,
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I,
for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - Nikola Tesla

----
 ET  "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes."
----

after prepro  From ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization  Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong   Dong   Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
NntpPostingHost tealcsnorg
Organization 4L Laboratories
Distribution World
Expires Wed 28 Apr 1993 060000 GMT
Lines 30

In article  metareswellsfcaus Tom Van Flandern writes
crb7qkelvinseasVirginiaEDU Cameron Randale Bass writes
 BruceScottlaunchpaduncedu Bruce Scott writes
 Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
 physics
 [crb] Dong   Dong   Dong   Do I hear the deathknell of
 string theory

     I agree  You can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other
unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list
including the omnipresent black holes

     Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
alone  Then what about my original criticism when I said Curvature
can only exist relative to something noncurved  Bruce replied
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics  We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about
At the moment I dont see a way to defend that statement and the
existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously  Tom

I hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have
no properties
Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing I
for one refuse to subscribe to such a view  Nikola Tesla


 ET  Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time Perhaps now his time comes


preprocess doc  From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 48
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi

In <1993Apr9.154316.19778@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>In article <kmr4.1483.734243128@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
 
>>	If I state that I know that there is a green marble in a closed box, 
>>which I have _never_ seen, nor have any evidence for its existance; I would
>>be guilty of deceit, even if there is, in fact, a green marble inside.
>>
>>	The question of whether or not there is a green marble inside, is 
>>irrelevent.

>You go ahead and play with your marbles.

I love it, I love it, I love it!! Wish I could fit all that into a .sig
file! (If someone is keeping a list of Bobby quotes, be sure to include
this one!)

>>
>>	Stating an unproven opinion as a fact, is deceit. And, knowingly 
>>being decietful is a falsehood and a lie.

>So why do you think its an unproven opinion?  If I said something as
>fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it, then who's
>right?

The Flat-Earthers state that "the Earth is flat" is a fact. I don't accept
this, I think it's an unproven opinion, and I think the Round-Earthers are
right because they have better evidence than the Flat-Earthers do.

Although I can't prove that a god doesn't exist, the arguments used to
support a god's existence are weak and often self-contradictory, and I'm not
going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a
reason to believe in a god that I absolutely can't ignore.

A while ago, I read an interesting book by a fellow called Von Daenicken,
in which he proved some of the wildest things, and on the last page, he
wrote something like "Can you prove it isn't so?" I certainly can't, but
I'm not going to believe him, because he based his "proof" on some really
questionable stuff, such as old myths (he called it "circumstancial
evidence" :] ).

So far, atheism hasn't made me kill anyone, and I'm regarded as quite an
agreeable fellow, really. :)
-- 
Sami Aario         |  "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi  |   one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------'  "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"     DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.

after prepro  From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 48
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi

In 1993Apr915431619778ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
 
	If I state that I know that there is a green marble in a closed box 
which I have _never_ seen nor have any evidence for its existance I would
be guilty of deceit even if there is in fact a green marble inside

	The question of whether or not there is a green marble inside is 
irrelevent

You go ahead and play with your marbles

I love it I love it I love it Wish I could fit all that into a sig
file If someone is keeping a list of Bobby quotes be sure to include
this one


	Stating an unproven opinion as a fact is deceit And knowingly 
being decietful is a falsehood and a lie

So why do you think its an unproven opinion  If I said something as
fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it then whos
right

The FlatEarthers state that the Earth is flat is a fact I dont accept
this I think its an unproven opinion and I think the RoundEarthers are
right because they have better evidence than the FlatEarthers do

Although I cant prove that a god doesnt exist the arguments used to
support a gods existence are weak and often selfcontradictory and Im not
going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a
reason to believe in a god that I absolutely cant ignore

A while ago I read an interesting book by a fellow called Von Daenicken
in which he proved some of the wildest things and on the last page he
wrote something like Can you prove it isnt so I certainly cant but
Im not going to believe him because he based his proof on some really
questionable stuff such as old myths he called it circumstancial
evidence ] 

So far atheism hasnt made me kill anyone and Im regarded as quite an
agreeable fellow really 
 
Sami Aario           Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi     one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
  Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space     DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources
Summary: Books, addresses, music -- anything related to atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, books, music, fiction, addresses, contacts
Expires: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 11:57:19 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930301143317@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 290

Archive-name: atheism/resources
Alt-atheism-archive-name: resources
Last-modified: 11 December 1992
Version: 1.0

                              Atheist Resources

                      Addresses of Atheist Organizations

                                     USA

FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION

Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US.

Write to:  FFRF, P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701.
Telephone: (608) 256-8900

EVOLUTION DESIGNS

Evolution Designs sell the "Darwin fish".  It's a fish symbol, like the ones
Christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "Darwin" written
inside.  The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the US.

Write to:  Evolution Designs, 7119 Laurel Canyon #4, North Hollywood,
           CA 91605.

People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold --
try mailing <figmo@netcom.com>.  For net people who go to Lynn directly, the
price is $4.95 per fish.

AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS

AAP publish various atheist books -- critiques of the Bible, lists of
Biblical contradictions, and so on.  One such book is:

"The Bible Handbook" by W.P. Ball and G.W. Foote.  American Atheist Press.
372 pp.  ISBN 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986.  Bible contradictions,
absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains Ball, Foote: "The Bible
Contradicts Itself", AAP.  Based on the King James version of the Bible.

Write to:  American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX 78714-0195.
      or:  7215 Cameron Road, Austin, TX 78752-2973.
Telephone: (512) 458-1244
Fax:       (512) 467-9525

PROMETHEUS BOOKS

Sell books including Haught's "Holy Horrors" (see below).

Write to:  700 East Amherst Street, Buffalo, New York 14215.
Telephone: (716) 837-2475.

An alternate address (which may be newer or older) is:
Prometheus Books, 59 Glenn Drive, Buffalo, NY 14228-2197.

AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR HUMANISM

An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought.  They publish a quarterly newsletter, AAH EXAMINER.

Write to:  Norm R. Allen, Jr., African Americans for Humanism, P.O. Box 664,
           Buffalo, NY 14226.

                                United Kingdom

Rationalist Press Association          National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street               702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW                          London N19 3NL
071 226 7251                           071 272 1266

British Humanist Association           South Place Ethical Society
14 Lamb's Conduit Passage              Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH                        Red Lion Square
071 430 0908                           London WC1R 4RL
fax 071 430 1271                       071 831 7723

The National Secular Society publish "The Freethinker", a monthly magazine
founded in 1881.

                                   Germany

IBKA e.V.
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

IBKA publish a journal:
MIZ. (Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit. Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten. Hrsg. IBKA e.V.)
MIZ-Vertrieb, Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.

For atheist books, write to:

IBDK, Internationaler B"ucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005, D-3000 Hannover 1. Germany.
Telephone: 0511/211216


                               Books -- Fiction

THOMAS M. DISCH

"The Santa Claus Compromise"
Short story.  The ultimate proof that Santa exists.  All characters and 
events are fictitious.  Any similarity to living or dead gods -- uh, well...

WALTER M. MILLER, JR

"A Canticle for Leibowitz"
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from "Saint Leibowitz", filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters.

EDGAR PANGBORN

"Davy"
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states.  The church, for example,
forbids that anyone "produce, describe or use any substance containing...
atoms". 

PHILIP K. DICK

Philip K. Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thought-provoking short 
stories and novels.  His stories are bizarre at times, but very approachable.
He wrote mainly SF, but he wrote about people, truth and religion rather than
technology.  Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God, he
remained sceptical.  Amongst his novels, the following are of some relevance:

"Galactic Pot-Healer"
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans.  When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers, pot-healer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply.  A polished, ironic and amusing novel.

"A Maze of Death"
Noteworthy for its description of a technology-based religion.

"VALIS"
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin.  He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters.

"The Divine Invasion"
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system.  Unfortunately she is terminally ill, and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24-hour easy listening music.

MARGARET ATWOOD

"The Handmaid's Tale"
A story based on the premise that the US Congress is mysteriously
assassinated, and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it
"right" again.  The book is the diary of a woman's life as she tries to live
under the new Christian theocracy.  Women's right to own property is revoked,
and their bank accounts are closed; sinful luxuries are outlawed, and the
radio is only used for readings from the Bible.  Crimes are punished
retroactively: doctors who performed legal abortions in the "old world" are
hunted down and hanged.  Atwood's writing style is difficult to get used to
at first, but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on.

VARIOUS AUTHORS

"The Bible"
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized.  However, it
is probably worth reading, if only so that you'll know what all the fuss is
about.  It exists in many different versions, so make sure you get the one
true version.

                             Books -- Non-fiction

PETER DE ROSA

"Vicars of Christ", Bantam Press, 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities, adulteries, fallacies etc.
(German translation: "Gottes erste Diener. Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums",
Droemer-Knaur, 1989)

MICHAEL MARTIN

"Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", Temple University Press,
 Philadelphia, USA.
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism.  Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this (necessarily) tendentious
area.  Argues both for "negative atheism" (i.e. the "non-belief in the
existence of god(s)") and also for "positive atheism" ("the belief in the
non-existence of god(s)").  Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god; particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne.
541 pages. ISBN 0-87722-642-3 (hardcover; paperback also available)

"The Case Against Christianity", Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity, in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and (ultimately)
demonstrates that they are unsupportable and/or incoherent.
273 pages. ISBN 0-87722-767-5

JAMES TURNER

"Without God, Without Creed", The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore,
 MD, USA
Subtitled "The Origins of Unbelief in America".  Examines the way in which
unbelief (whether agnostic or atheistic)  became a mainstream alternative
world-view.  Focusses on the period 1770-1900, and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American, and particularly New England
developments.  "Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism,
Without God, Without Creed is, rather, the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea, the belief that God exists." 
316 pages. ISBN (hardcover) 0-8018-2494-X (paper) 0-8018-3407-4

GEORGE SELDES (Editor)

"The great thoughts", Ballantine Books, New York, USA
A "dictionary of quotations" of a different kind, concentrating on statements
and writings which, explicitly or implicitly, present the person's philosophy
and world-view.  Includes obscure (and often suppressed) opinions from many
people.  For some popular observations, traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries.  Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiff's "What Great Men Think of Religion"
and Noyes' "Views of Religion".
490 pages. ISBN (paper) 0-345-29887-X.

RICHARD SWINBURNE

"The Existence of God (Revised Edition)", Clarendon Paperbacks, Oxford
This book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with "The Coherence of
Theism" (1977) and was concluded with "Faith and Reason" (1981).  In this
work, Swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the
existence of God.  His arguments, which are somewhat tendentious and rely
upon the imputation of late 20th century western Christian values and
aesthetics to a God which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived, were
decisively rejected in Mackie's "The Miracle of Theism".  In the revised
edition of "The Existence of God", Swinburne includes an Appendix in which he
makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut Mackie.

J. L. MACKIE

"The Miracle of Theism", Oxford
This (posthumous) volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal
arguments for and against the existence of God.  It ranges from the classical
philosophical positions of Descartes, Anselm, Berkeley, Hume et al, through
the moral arguments of Newman, Kant and Sidgwick, to the recent restatements
of the classical theses by Plantinga and Swinburne.  It also addresses those
positions which push the concept of God beyond the realm of the rational,
such as those of Kierkegaard, Kung and Philips, as well as "replacements for
God" such as Lelie's axiarchism.  The book is a delight to read - less
formalistic and better written than Martin's works, and refreshingly direct
when compared with the hand-waving of Swinburne.

JAMES A. HAUGHT

"Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness",
 Prometheus Books
Looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day -- and
not only by Christians.
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 89-64079. 1990.

NORM R. ALLEN, JR.

"African American Humanism: an Anthology"
See the listing for African Americans for Humanism above.

GORDON STEIN

"An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", Prometheus Books
An anthology covering a wide range of subjects, including 'The Devil, Evil
and Morality' and 'The History of Freethought'.  Comprehensive bibliography.

EDMUND D. COHEN

"The Mind of The Bible-Believer", Prometheus Books
A study of why people become Christian fundamentalists, and what effect it
has on them.

                                Net Resources

There's a small mail-based archive server at mantis.co.uk which carries
archives of old alt.atheism.moderated articles and assorted other files.  For
more information, send mail to archive-server@mantis.co.uk saying

   help
   send atheism/index

and it will mail back a reply.


mathew
ÿ

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Atheist Resources
Summary Books addresses music  anything related to atheism
Keywords FAQ atheism books music fiction addresses contacts
Expires Thu 29 Apr 1993 115719 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930301143317mantiscouk
Lines 290

Archivename atheismresources
Altatheismarchivename resources
Lastmodified 11 December 1992
Version 10

                              Atheist Resources

                      Addresses of Atheist Organizations

                                     USA

FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION

Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US

Write to  FFRF PO Box 750 Madison WI 53701
Telephone 608 2568900

EVOLUTION DESIGNS

Evolution Designs sell the Darwin fish  Its a fish symbol like the ones
Christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word Darwin written
inside  The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is 495 postpaid in the US

Write to  Evolution Designs 7119 Laurel Canyon 4 North Hollywood
           CA 91605

People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold 
try mailing   For net people who go to Lynn directly the
price is 495 per fish

AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS

AAP publish various atheist books  critiques of the Bible lists of
Biblical contradictions and so on  One such book is

The Bible Handbook by WP Ball and GW Foote  American Atheist Press
372 pp  ISBN 0910309264 2nd edition 1986  Bible contradictions
absurdities atrocities immoralities contains Ball Foote The Bible
Contradicts Itself AAP  Based on the King James version of the Bible

Write to  American Atheist Press PO Box 140195 Austin TX 787140195
      or  7215 Cameron Road Austin TX 787522973
Telephone 512 4581244
Fax       512 4679525

PROMETHEUS BOOKS

Sell books including Haughts Holy Horrors see below

Write to  700 East Amherst Street Buffalo New York 14215
Telephone 716 8372475

An alternate address which may be newer or older is
Prometheus Books 59 Glenn Drive Buffalo NY 142282197

AFRICANAMERICANS FOR HUMANISM

An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought  They publish a quarterly newsletter AAH EXAMINER

Write to  Norm R Allen Jr African Americans for Humanism PO Box 664
           Buffalo NY 14226

                                United Kingdom

Rationalist Press Association          National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street               702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW                          London N19 3NL
071 226 7251                           071 272 1266

British Humanist Association           South Place Ethical Society
14 Lambs Conduit Passage              Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH                        Red Lion Square
071 430 0908                           London WC1R 4RL
fax 071 430 1271                       071 831 7723

The National Secular Society publish The Freethinker a monthly magazine
founded in 1881

                                   Germany

IBKA eV
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880 D1000 Berlin 41 Germany

IBKA publish a journal
MIZ Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten Hrsg IBKA eV
MIZVertrieb Postfach 880 D1000 Berlin 41 Germany

For atheist books write to

IBDK Internationaler Bucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005 D3000 Hannover 1 Germany
Telephone 0511211216


                               Books  Fiction

THOMAS M DISCH

The Santa Claus Compromise
Short story  The ultimate proof that Santa exists  All characters and 
events are fictitious  Any similarity to living or dead gods  uh well

WALTER M MILLER JR

A Canticle for Leibowitz
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from Saint Leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters

EDGAR PANGBORN

Davy
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states  The church for example
forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing
atoms 

PHILIP K DICK

Philip K Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thoughtprovoking short 
stories and novels  His stories are bizarre at times but very approachable
He wrote mainly SF but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than
technology  Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God he
remained sceptical  Amongst his novels the following are of some relevance

Galactic PotHealer
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans  When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pothealer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply  A polished ironic and amusing novel

A Maze of Death
Noteworthy for its description of a technologybased religion

VALIS
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin  He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters

The Divine Invasion
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system  Unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24hour easy listening music

MARGARET ATWOOD

The Handmaids Tale
A story based on the premise that the US Congress is mysteriously
assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it
right again  The book is the diary of a womans life as she tries to live
under the new Christian theocracy  Womens right to own property is revoked
and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the
radio is only used for readings from the Bible  Crimes are punished
retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are
hunted down and hanged  Atwoods writing style is difficult to get used to
at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on

VARIOUS AUTHORS

The Bible
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized  However it
is probably worth reading if only so that youll know what all the fuss is
about  It exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one
true version

                             Books  Nonfiction

PETER DE ROSA

Vicars of Christ Bantam Press 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc
German translation Gottes erste Diener Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums
DroemerKnaur 1989

MICHAEL MARTIN

Atheism A Philosophical Justification Temple University Press
 Philadelphia USA
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism  Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious
area  Argues both for negative atheism ie the nonbelief in the
existence of gods and also for positive atheism the belief in the
nonexistence of gods  Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne
541 pages ISBN 0877226423 hardcover paperback also available

The Case Against Christianity Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and ultimately
demonstrates that they are unsupportable andor incoherent
273 pages ISBN 0877227675

JAMES TURNER

Without God Without Creed The Johns Hopkins University Press Baltimore
 MD USA
Subtitled The Origins of Unbelief in America  Examines the way in which
unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic  became a mainstream alternative
worldview  Focusses on the period 17701900 and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American and particularly New England
developments  Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism
Without God Without Creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea the belief that God exists 
316 pages ISBN hardcover 080182494X paper 0801834074

GEORGE SELDES Editor

The great thoughts Ballantine Books New York USA
A dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements
and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the persons philosophy
and worldview  Includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many
people  For some popular observations traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries  Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiffs What Great Men Think of Religion
and Noyes Views of Religion
490 pages ISBN paper 034529887X

RICHARD SWINBURNE

The Existence of God Revised Edition Clarendon Paperbacks Oxford
This book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with The Coherence of
Theism 1977 and was concluded with Faith and Reason 1981  In this
work Swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the
existence of God  His arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely
upon the imputation of late 20th century western Christian values and
aesthetics to a God which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were
decisively rejected in Mackies The Miracle of Theism  In the revised
edition of The Existence of God Swinburne includes an Appendix in which he
makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut Mackie

J L MACKIE

The Miracle of Theism Oxford
This posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal
arguments for and against the existence of God  It ranges from the classical
philosophical positions of Descartes Anselm Berkeley Hume et al through
the moral arguments of Newman Kant and Sidgwick to the recent restatements
of the classical theses by Plantinga and Swinburne  It also addresses those
positions which push the concept of God beyond the realm of the rational
such as those of Kierkegaard Kung and Philips as well as replacements for
God such as Lelies axiarchism  The book is a delight to read  less
formalistic and better written than Martins works and refreshingly direct
when compared with the handwaving of Swinburne

JAMES A HAUGHT

Holy Horrors An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness
 Prometheus Books
Looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day  and
not only by Christians
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 8964079 1990

NORM R ALLEN JR

African American Humanism an Anthology
See the listing for African Americans for Humanism above

GORDON STEIN

An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism Prometheus Books
An anthology covering a wide range of subjects including The Devil Evil
and Morality and The History of Freethought  Comprehensive bibliography

EDMUND D COHEN

The Mind of The BibleBeliever Prometheus Books
A study of why people become Christian fundamentalists and what effect it
has on them

                                Net Resources

Theres a small mailbased archive server at mantiscouk which carries
archives of old altatheismmoderated articles and assorted other files  For
more information send mail to archiveservermantiscouk saying

   help
   send atheismindex

and it will mail back a reply


mathew


preprocess doc  From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <93108.155839PTS102@psuvm.psu.edu> <PTS102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
[Pitt vs. Penn State controversy deleted]
>
>Bringing this back to alt.atheism relevance:  So the guy says we're going to
>Hell.  That isn't sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator.  At worst,
>it's bad etiquette.  (Unless you really believe that someone is using his
>account without his knowledge/permission, which is actually against the law.)
>-----
>Patrick Saxton          "Pitt is a second-rate school in a second-rate city."
>pts102@PSUVM.psu.edu                                         - anon
>pts@ecl.psu.edu         ob.atheism:  "In Batman we Trust"
>

No.  It wouldn't be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this
was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell.  The point was 
that recently many messages were posted from that address.  Each of these
messages was posted to a different newsgroup, with the apparent intent of
provoking the readers of that particular group.  This, along with the fact
that these posts were written in all-caps, makes these posts suspect.
Whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly.  If it is the
intended user, they should consider appropriate action.  If it is someone
else-- which seems a possibility, then this is also reason to report it.
	We get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread.
It is only because I have seen posts on other groups by this user that I
am considering action.

Brendan


after prepro  From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

In article 93108155839PTS102psuvmpsuedu  writes
[Pitt vs Penn State controversy deleted]

Bringing this back to altatheism relevance  So the guy says were going to
Hell  That isnt sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator  At worst
its bad etiquette  Unless you really believe that someone is using his
account without his knowledgepermission which is actually against the law

Patrick Saxton          Pitt is a secondrate school in a secondrate city
pts102PSUVMpsuedu                                          anon
ptseclpsuedu         obatheism  In Batman we Trust


No  It wouldnt be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this
was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell  The point was 
that recently many messages were posted from that address  Each of these
messages was posted to a different newsgroup with the apparent intent of
provoking the readers of that particular group  This along with the fact
that these posts were written in allcaps makes these posts suspect
Whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly  If it is the
intended user they should consider appropriate action  If it is someone
else which seems a possibility then this is also reason to report it
	We get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread
It is only because I have seen posts on other groups by this user that I
am considering action

Brendan


preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1qnpa6INN8av@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
>>painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.
>
>Well, most hangings are very quick and, I imagine, painless.

	I think this is a misnomer.

>
>>Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those 
>>days ], etc. 
>>All would be considered cruel under your definition.
>>All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.
>
>And, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too.  And, if these
>things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution
>(painless) would not be, either.

	But, this just shows then that painful execution is not considered 
"cruel" and unusual punishment. This shows that "cruel" as used in the 
constitution does NOT refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical 
pain.
	Rather, it must be a different meaning.

---  

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling "Traditional Family Values."





after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Cruel was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine

Well most hangings are very quick and I imagine painless

	I think this is a misnomer


Firing squad  [ note not a clean way to die back in those 
days ] etc 
All would be considered cruel under your definition
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers

And hangings and firing squads are allowed today too  And if these
things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution
painless would not be either

	But this just shows then that painful execution is not considered 
cruel and unusual punishment This shows that cruel as used in the 
constitution does NOT refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical 
pain
	Rather it must be a different meaning

  

   Id Cheat on Hillary Too

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling Traditional Family Values





preprocess doc  From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Lines: 42


In article <1993Apr20.001757.7543@bby.com.au>, gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond) writes:
> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net> gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
> 
>>    Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
>>    who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
>>    year. 
> 
> And with $1B on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly
> likely to involve more than just the lunar environment! 
> 
> "Oh Dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of ACME's base and they
> all died.  How sad.  Gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents."
> 
> "Quick Boss, the slime from YoyoDyne are back, and this time they've
> got a tank!  Man the guns!"
> 
> One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
> sort of environment.....
> 
> Greg.
> 
> (I'm kidding, BTW, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is
> that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness
> military procurement programs.  And $1b is probably far too small a
> reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
> proposition.)
> -
> Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia

Hey!  My dad has an old hangar and Judy has some old rockets in her attic,
let's put on a Lunar program! . . .  Sounds good, but . . .
Let's play a game - What would be a reasonable reward?  What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat?  Just where in the
budget would the reward come from?  Should there be a time limit?  Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say . . . 
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years? You get the idea.

I'd like to play but I don't have a clue to the answers.

Tom Freebairn   | He who refuses to understand math
                | will probably never get his checkbook figured out.

after prepro  From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Lines 42


In article 1993Apr200017577543bbycomau gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond writes
 In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
 
    Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
    who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
    year 
 
 And with 1B on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly
 likely to involve more than just the lunar environment 
 
 Oh Dear my freighter just landed on the roof of ACMEs base and they
 all died  How sad  Gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents
 
 Quick Boss the slime from YoyoDyne are back and this time theyve
 got a tank  Man the guns
 
 One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
 sort of environment
 
 Greg
 
 Im kidding BTW although the problem of winnertakesall prizes is
 that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour  witness
 military procurement programs  And 1b is probably far too small a
 reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
 proposition
 
 Gregory Bond  Burdett Buckeridge  Young Ltd Melbourne Australia

Hey  My dad has an old hangar and Judy has some old rockets in her attic
lets put on a Lunar program     Sounds good but   
Lets play a game  What would be a reasonable reward  What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat  Just where in the
budget would the reward come from  Should there be a time limit  Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say    
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years You get the idea

Id like to play but I dont have a clue to the answers

Tom Freebairn    He who refuses to understand math
                 will probably never get his checkbook figured out

preprocess doc  From: marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 72
NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
>die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
>someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
>heal people.  

Anyone who dies for a "cause" runs the risk of dying for a lie.  As for
people being able to tell if he was a liar, well, we've had grifters and
charlatans since the beginning of civilization.  If David Copperfield had
been the Messiah, I bet he could have found plenty of believers.  
Jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer, and he wasn't the
first to be "witnessed."  What sets him apart?

>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
>this right away.

Rubbish.  Nations have followed crazies, liars, psychopaths, and 
megalomaniacs throughout history.  Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Khomeini,
Qadaffi, Stalin, Papa Doc, and Nixon come to mind...all from this century.
Koresh is a non-issue.


>	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
>real thing.  

Take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course.  There are flaws in your
logic everywhere.  And as I'm sure others will tell you, read the FAQ!


>	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
>and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
>write I will use it.

Of course, you have to believe the Bible first.  Just because something is
written in the Bible does not mean it is true, and the age of that tome plus
the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible.  So if you
do quote from the Bible in the future, try to back up that quote with 
supporting evidence.  Otherwise, you will get flamed mercilessly.


>	I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.  It 
>is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.  Rather I think it 
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
>sake.  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
>same.  Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
>over to him.  That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a 
>real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at.  But 
>just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes 
>time.  We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.  
>It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in 
>a while.  We box everything into time units.  Such as work at this 
>time, sports, Tv, social life.  God is above these boxes and should be 
>carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
>ourselves.  	  

Just like weight lifting or guitar playing, eh?  I don't know how you 
define the world "total," but I would imagine a "total sacrafice [sp]
of everything for God's sake" would involve more than a time commitment.

You are correct about our tendency to "box everything into time units."
Would you explain HOW one should involove God in sports and (hehehe)
television?
-- 
---                      __  _______                              ---
||| Kevin Marshall       \ \/ /_  _/  Computer Science Department |||
||| Virginia Tech         \  / / /     marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu |||
--- Blacksburg, Virginia   \/ /_/                  (703) 232-6529 ---

after prepro  From marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept Blacksburg VA
Lines 72
NNTPPostingHost csugradcsvtedu
Keywords Dan Bissell

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
heal people  

Anyone who dies for a cause runs the risk of dying for a lie  As for
people being able to tell if he was a liar well weve had grifters and
charlatans since the beginning of civilization  If David Copperfield had
been the Messiah I bet he could have found plenty of believers  
Jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer and he wasnt the
first to be witnessed  What sets him apart

	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away

Rubbish  Nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and 
megalomaniacs throughout history  Hitler Tojo Mussolini Khomeini
Qadaffi Stalin Papa Doc and Nixon come to mindall from this century
Koresh is a nonissue


	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  

Take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course  There are flaws in your
logic everywhere  And as Im sure others will tell you read the FAQ


	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 
and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
write I will use it

Of course you have to believe the Bible first  Just because something is
written in the Bible does not mean it is true and the age of that tome plus
the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible  So if you
do quote from the Bible in the future try to back up that quote with 
supporting evidence  Otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly


	I dont think most people understand what a Christian is  It 
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches  Rather I think it 
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods 
sake  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
same  Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
over to him  Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a 
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at  But 
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes 
time  We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life  
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in 
a while  We box everything into time units  Such as work at this 
time sports Tv social life  God is above these boxes and should be 
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
ourselves  	  

Just like weight lifting or guitar playing eh  I dont know how you 
define the world total but I would imagine a total sacrafice [sp]
of everything for Gods sake would involve more than a time commitment

You are correct about our tendency to box everything into time units
Would you explain HOW one should involove God in sports and hehehe
television
 
                      __  _______                              
 Kevin Marshall       \ \ _  _  Computer Science Department 
 Virginia Tech         \         marshallcsugradcsvtedu 
 Blacksburg Virginia   \ _                  703 2326529 

preprocess doc  From: Pat.Hoage@f6507.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Hoage)
Subject: army in space
Lines: 7

I just got out of the Army. Go signal corps or Intelligence; 
photointelligence interpretation. If you go ADA you might get to play with 
rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt 
protecting the foward troops from low flying objects. Good Luck  
 

 * Origin: *AmeriComm*, 214/373-7314. Dallas'Info Source. (1:124/6507)

after prepro  From PatHoagef6507n124z1fidonetorg Pat Hoage
Subject army in space
Lines 7

I just got out of the Army Go signal corps or Intelligence 
photointelligence interpretation If you go ADA you might get to play with 
rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt 
protecting the foward troops from low flying objects Good Luck  
 

  Origin AmeriComm 2143737314 DallasInfo Source 11246507

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
>>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
>So, why "must" they have such laws?

The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."

If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
So why must they have such laws

The quotation marks should enclose laws not must

If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos

keith

preprocess doc  From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 24

In article <1pa0f4INNpit@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

> But really, are you threatened by the motto, or by the people that use it?

Every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm,
it is infact re-inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for
themselves. The motto is dangerous in itself, it tells the world that every
*true* American is god-fearing, and puts down those who do not fear gods. It
doesn't need anyone to make it dangerous, it does a good job itself by just
existing on your currency.

> keith

The Desert Brat
-- 
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia,    ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au      T.S.A.K.C.            \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au      /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions.                       bb  bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack  |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to   | for some."            |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com             |    - Alice In Chains  |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+

after prepro  From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Re Keith Schneider  Stealth Poster
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 24

In article 1pa0f4INNpitgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

 But really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it

Every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm
it is infact reinforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for
themselves The motto is dangerous in itself it tells the world that every
true American is godfearing and puts down those who do not fear gods It
doesnt need anyone to make it dangerous it does a good job itself by just
existing on your currency

 keith

The Desert Brat
 
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia    ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau      TSAKC            \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau      \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions                       bb  bb

It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we  Gods name is smack  
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to    for some            
produce it  Jim Perry perrydsinccom                  Alice In Chains  


preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 16

In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:
> He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
> One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
> existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
> Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
> number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
> is his status at the time the crime was committed. 

Gregg, so would you consider that Rushdie would now be left alone,
and he could have a normal life? In other words, does Islam support
the notion of forgiving?

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 16

In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote
 Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
 One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
 existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
 Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
 number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
 is his status at the time the crime was committed 

Gregg so would you consider that Rushdie would now be left alone
and he could have a normal life In other words does Islam support
the notion of forgiving

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Victims of various 'Good Fight's
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 30

In article <9454@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala) writes:

> LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION 
> 1. Iran-Iraq War: 1,000,000
> 2. Civil War in Sudan: 1,000,000
> 3, Riots in India-Pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000
> 4. Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000
> 5. Inquistions in America in 1500s: x million (x=??)
> 6. Crusades: ??

7. Massacre of Jews in WWII: 6.3 million
8. Massacre of other 'inferior races' in WWII: 10 million
9. Communist purges: 20-30 million? [Socialism is more or less a religion]
10. Catholics V Protestants : quite a few I'd imagine
11. Recent goings on in Bombay/Iodia (sp?) area: ??
12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million

> -- Naren

The Desert Brat
-- 
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia,    ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au      T.S.A.K.C.            \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au      /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions.                       bb  bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack  |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to   | for some."            |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com             |    - Alice In Chains  |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+

after prepro  From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Victims of various Good Fights
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 30

In article 9454tekig7PENTEKCOM narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala writes

 LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION 
 1 IranIraq War 1000000
 2 Civil War in Sudan 1000000
 3 Riots in IndiaPakistan in 1947 1000000
 4 Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971 1000000
 5 Inquistions in America in 1500s x million x
 6 Crusades 

7 Massacre of Jews in WWII 63 million
8 Massacre of other inferior races in WWII 10 million
9 Communist purges 2030 million [Socialism is more or less a religion]
10 Catholics V Protestants  quite a few Id imagine
11 Recent goings on in BombayIodia sp area 
12 Disease introduced to Brazilian  oher SAm tribes x million

  Naren

The Desert Brat
 
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia    ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau      TSAKC            \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau      \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions                       bb  bb

It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we  Gods name is smack  
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to    for some            
produce it  Jim Perry perrydsinccom                  Alice In Chains  


preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 19

In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
>EVER HEAR OF
>BAPTISM AT BIRTH?  If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
>is...
>
  
  No, that's praying on the young.  Preying on the young comes
  later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
  priest really wears under that chasible.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 19

In article  pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH  If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is

  
  No thats praying on the young  Preying on the young comes
  later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
  priest really wears under that chasible


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 19

>snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
>

LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION 
1. Iran-Iraq War: 1,000,000
2. Civil War in Sudan: 1,000,000
3, Riots in India-Pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000
4. Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000
5. Inquistions in America in 1500s: x million (x=??)
6. Crusades: ??

I am sure that people can add a lot more to the list.
I wonder what Bobby has to say about the above. 
Standard Excuses will not be accepted.
-- Naren

All standard disclaimers apply


after prepro  From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 19

snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
 More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else


LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION 
1 IranIraq War 1000000
2 Civil War in Sudan 1000000
3 Riots in IndiaPakistan in 1947 1000000
4 Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971 1000000
5 Inquistions in America in 1500s x million x
6 Crusades 

I am sure that people can add a lot more to the list
I wonder what Bobby has to say about the above 
Standard Excuses will not be accepted
 Naren

All standard disclaimers apply


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>To show that the examples I and others
>have provided are *not* counter examples of your supposed inherent
>moral hypothesis, you have to successfully argue that
>domestication removes or alters this morality.

I think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree.
Domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild.  I
don't think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the
wild animal kingdom, since they have been bred for thousands of years
to produce certain behaviors, etc.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re To show that the examples I and others
have provided are not counter examples of your supposed inherent
moral hypothesis you have to successfully argue that
domestication removes or alters this morality

I think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree
Domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild  I
dont think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the
wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands of years
to produce certain behaviors etc

keith

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.

The Japanese spacecraft, Hiten, crashed on the Moon last weekend.  For the
past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some
aerobraking experiments with Earth's atmosphere.  It was placed in lunar
orbit in February 1992, and I guess it finally ran out of fuel and was
unable to maintain its orbit around the Moon.  
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 16
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article  dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon

The Japanese spacecraft Hiten crashed on the Moon last weekend  For the
past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some
aerobraking experiments with Earths atmosphere  It was placed in lunar
orbit in February 1992 and I guess it finally ran out of fuel and was
unable to maintain its orbit around the Moon  
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable

preprocess doc  Subject: Vonnegut/atheism
From: dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Lines: 21



   Yesterday, I got the chance to hear Kurt Vonnegut speak at the
University of New Hampshire. Vonnegut succeeded Isaac Asimov as the 
(honorary?) head of the American Humanist Association. (Vonnegut is
an atheist, and so was Asimov) Before Asimov's funeral, Vonnegut stood up
and said about Asimov, "He's in heaven now," which ignited uproarious 
laughter in the room. (from the people he was speaking to around the time
of the funeral)

	 "It's the funniest thing I could have possibly said
to a room full of humanists," Vonnegut said at yesterday's lecture. 

         If Vonnegut comes to speak at your university, I highly recommend
going to see him even if you've never read any of his novels. In my opinion,
he's the greatest living humorist. (greatest living humanist humorist as well)


   Peace,

     Dana

after prepro  Subject Vonnegutatheism
From dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings
Organization UTexas MailtoNews Gateway
NNTPPostingHost csutexasedu
Lines 21



   Yesterday I got the chance to hear Kurt Vonnegut speak at the
University of New Hampshire Vonnegut succeeded Isaac Asimov as the 
honorary head of the American Humanist Association Vonnegut is
an atheist and so was Asimov Before Asimovs funeral Vonnegut stood up
and said about Asimov Hes in heaven now which ignited uproarious 
laughter in the room from the people he was speaking to around the time
of the funeral

	 Its the funniest thing I could have possibly said
to a room full of humanists Vonnegut said at yesterdays lecture 

         If Vonnegut comes to speak at your university I highly recommend
going to see him even if youve never read any of his novels In my opinion
hes the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist as well


   Peace

     Dana

preprocess doc  From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: We don't need no stinking subjects!
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: The Loyal Order Of Keiths.
Lines: 93

In article <1ql1avINN38a@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>
>>No, if you're going to claim something, then it is up to you to prove it.
>>Think "Cold Fusion".
>
>Well, I've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you
>(or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding
>mating practices, etc.  I don't think that these few cases are enough to
>disprove the general trend of natural morality.  And, again, the mating
>practices need to be reexamined...

So what you're saying is that your mind is made up, and you'll just explain
away any differences at being statistically insignificant?

>>>Try to find "immoral" non-mating-related activities.
>>So you're excluding mating-related-activities from your "natural morality"?
>
>No, but mating practices are a special case.  I'll have to think about it
>some more.

So you'll just explain away any inconsistancies in your "theory" as being
"a special case".

>>>Yes, I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
>>>goal of species propogation in mind.  But, I am not equating the two
>>>as you so think.  That is, an objective system isn't necessarily the
>>>natural one.
>>Are you or are you not the man who wrote:
>>"A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
>> follow".
>
>Indeed.  But, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems
>are not the natural one.  So, the terms can not be equated.  The natural
>system is a subset of the objective ones.

You just equated them.  Re-read your own words.

>>Now, since homosexuality has been observed in most animals (including
>>birds and dolphins), are you going to claim that "most animals" have
>>the capacity of being immoral?
>
>I don't claim that homosexuality is immoral.  It isn't harmful, although
>it isn't helpful either (to the mating process).  And, when you say that
>homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?"

A study release in 1991 found that 11% of female seagulls are lesbians.

>>>Well, I'm saying that these goals are not inherent.  That is why they must
>>>be postulates, because there is not really a way to determine them
>>>otherwise (although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
>>>goal--but they are somewhat removed).
>>Postulate: To assume; posit.
>
>That's right.  The goals themselves aren't inherent.
>
>>I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
>>Earth, that the moon is actually made of green cheese, and the stars are
>>the portions of Angels that intrudes into three-dimensional reality.
>
>You could, but such would contradict observations.

Now, apply this last sentence of your to YOUR theory.  Notice how your are
contridicting observations?

>>I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
>>of one side of a triangle, the length of a second side of the triangle, and
>>the degree of angle connecting them, I can determine the length of the
>>third side.
>
>But a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be
>true.  I don't think your postulate would be valid.

You don't know much math, do you?  The ability to use SAS to determine the
length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry.

>>Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to.  In order to assume
>>something about your system, you have to be able to show that your postulates
>>work.
>
>Yes, and I think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work.  You think
>they don't?  Or are they not good goals?

Goals <> postulates.

Again, if one of the "goals" of this "objective/natural morality" system
you are proposing is "survival of the species", then homosexuality is
immoral.
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza.  OK???=

after prepro  From kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran
Subject We dont need no stinking subjects
XDisclaimer Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users
Organization The Loyal Order Of Keiths
Lines 93

In article 1ql1avINN38agapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes
keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes

No if youre going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it
Think Cold Fusion

Well Ive provided examples to show that the trend was general and you
or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding
mating practices etc  I dont think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality  And again the mating
practices need to be reexamined

So what youre saying is that your mind is made up and youll just explain
away any differences at being statistically insignificant

Try to find immoral nonmatingrelated activities
So youre excluding matingrelatedactivities from your natural morality

No but mating practices are a special case  Ill have to think about it
some more

So youll just explain away any inconsistancies in your theory as being
a special case

Yes I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
goal of species propogation in mind  But I am not equating the two
as you so think  That is an objective system isnt necessarily the
natural one
Are you or are you not the man who wrote
A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
 follow

Indeed  But while the natural system is objective all objective systems
are not the natural one  So the terms can not be equated  The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones

You just equated them  Reread your own words

Now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including
birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have
the capacity of being immoral

I dont claim that homosexuality is immoral  It isnt harmful although
it isnt helpful either to the mating process  And when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom dont you mean bisexuality

A study release in 1991 found that 11 of female seagulls are lesbians

Well Im saying that these goals are not inherent  That is why they must
be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them
otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
goalbut they are somewhat removed
Postulate To assume posit

Thats right  The goals themselves arent inherent

I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
Earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are
the portions of Angels that intrudes into threedimensional reality

You could but such would contradict observations

Now apply this last sentence of your to YOUR theory  Notice how your are
contridicting observations

I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and
the degree of angle connecting them I can determine the length of the
third side

But a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be
true  I dont think your postulate would be valid

You dont know much math do you  The ability to use SAS to determine the
length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry

Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to  In order to assume
something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates
work

Yes and I think the goals of survival and happiness do work  You think
they dont  Or are they not good goals

Goals  postulates

Again if one of the goals of this objectivenatural morality system
you are proposing is survival of the species then homosexuality is
immoral

kcochrannyxcsduedu  B04 c d e f g k m r s t  TSAKC
My thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza  OK

preprocess doc  From: Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7F4E4ADFD021C0B@rs5-annex3.sfu.ca>
X-Xxdate: Fri, 16 Apr 93 06:33:17 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 15

In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> James P. Goltz, goltz@mimi.UU.NET
writes:
>  Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.

It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is,
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time,
but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later,
when 
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
see it. Has anyone out there seen it?

Leigh

after prepro  From Leigh Palmer 
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
XXxmessageId 
XXxdate Fri 16 Apr 93 063317 GMT
Organization Simon Fraser University
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 15

In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET James P Goltz goltzmimiUUNET
writes
  Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept

It was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago I dont know how wellknown this is
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958 I was working at General Atomic at the time
but I didnt learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later
when 
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it

Leigh

preprocess doc  From: khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: hsc.usc.edu

In article <1993Apr26.184507.10511@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>I know it's only wishful thinking, with our current President,
>but this is from last fall:
>
>     "Is there life on Mars?  Maybe not now.  But there will be."
>        -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator, 24 August 1992
>
>-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
>      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

Lets hear it for Dan Goldin...now if he can only convince the rest of
our federal government that the space program is a worth while
investment!

I hope that I will live to see the day we walk on Mars, but
we need to address the technical hurdles first!  If there's sufficient
interest, maybe we should consider starting a sci.space group 
devoted to the technical analysis of long-duration human spaceflight.
Most of you regulars know that I'm interested in starting this analysis
as soon as possible.

Ken
khayash@hsc.usc.edu
USC School of Medicine, Class of 1994


after prepro  From khayashhscuscedu Ken Hayashida
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost hscuscedu

In article 1993Apr2618450710511aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
I know its only wishful thinking with our current President
but this is from last fall

     Is there life on Mars  Maybe not now  But there will be
         Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator 24 August 1992

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

Lets hear it for Dan Goldinnow if he can only convince the rest of
our federal government that the space program is a worth while
investment

I hope that I will live to see the day we walk on Mars but
we need to address the technical hurdles first  If theres sufficient
interest maybe we should consider starting a scispace group 
devoted to the technical analysis of longduration human spaceflight
Most of you regulars know that Im interested in starting this analysis
as soon as possible

Ken
khayashhscuscedu
USC School of Medicine Class of 1994


preprocess doc  From: DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce)
Subject: Re: Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Keywords: HST, Pluto, Uranus
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 13

In article <15APR199316461058@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope:
>
>     o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
>       Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus.
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! I knew Uranus is a long way off, but I didn't think it was THAT far away!

-- 
|                Dick Pierce                |
|    Loudspeaker and Software Consulting    |
| 17 Sartelle Street   Pepperell, MA  01463 |
|       (508) 433-9183 (Voice and FAX)      |

after prepro  From DPierceworldstdcom Richard D Pierce
Subject Re Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Keywords HST Pluto Uranus
Organization The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Lines 13

In article 15APR199316461058kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope

     o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
       Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow I knew Uranus is a long way off but I didnt think it was THAT far away

 
                Dick Pierce                
    Loudspeaker and Software Consulting    
 17 Sartelle Street   Pepperell MA  01463 
       508 4339183 Voice and FAX      

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Objective Values 'v' Scientific Accuracy (was Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 17

In article <930419.122738.5s2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
<mathew@mantis.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (Steve Lang) writes:
> > Values can also refer to meaning.  For example in computer science the
> > value of 1 is TRUE, and 0 is FALSE.
> 
> Not in Lisp.

True, all you need to define is one statement that defined one
polarity, and all the other states are considered the other
polarity. Then again what is the meaning of nil, false or true :-) ?

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Objective Values v Scientific Accuracy was Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 17

In article 9304191227385s2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
 wrote
 
 lpzsmlunicornnottacuk Steve Lang writes
  Values can also refer to meaning  For example in computer science the
  value of 1 is TRUE and 0 is FALSE
 
 Not in Lisp

True all you need to define is one statement that defined one
polarity and all the other states are considered the other
polarity Then again what is the meaning of nil false or true  

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: globus@nas.nasa.gov (Al Globus)
Subject: Space Colony Size Preferences Summary
Organization: Applied Research Office, NASA Ames Research Center
Reply-To: globus@nas.nasa.gov
Distribution: sci.space
Lines: 92


Some time ago I sent the following message:
   Every once in a while I design an orbital space colony.  I'm gearing up to
   do another one.  I'd some info from you. If you were to move
   onto a space colony to live permanently, how big would the colony have
   to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable?  Specifically,

   How many people do you want to share the colony with?
 

   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?  


   Assume 1g living (the colony will rotate).  Assume that you can leave
   from time to time for vacations and business trips.  If you're young
   enough, assume that you'll raise your children there.

I didn't get a lot of responses, and they were all over the block.
Thanx muchly to all those who responded, it is good food for thought.




Here's the (edited) responses I got:


   How many people do you want to share the colony with?
 
100

   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?  

Cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long

Rui Sousa
ruca@saber-si.pt

=============================================================================

>   How many people do you want to share the colony with?

100,000 - 250,000

>   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?  

100 square kms surface, divided into city, towns, villages and
countryside.  Must have lakes, rivers amd mountains.

=============================================================================

> How many
1000.  1000 people really isn't that large a number;
everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year, and will probably
be sick of everyone else within another year.

>What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?  

Hm.  I am not all that great at figuring it out.  But I would maximize the
percentage of colony-space that is accessible to humans.  Esecially if there
were to be children, since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways.
And everyone, especially me, likes to "go exploring"...I would want to be able
to go for a walk and see something different each time...

=============================================================================

For population, I think I would want a substantial town -- big enough
to have strangers in it.  This helps get away from the small-town
"everybody knows everything" syndrome, which some people like but
I don't.  Call it several thousand people.

For physical dimensions, a somewhat similar criterion:  big enough
to contain surprises, at least until you spent considerable time
getting to know it.  As a more specific rule of thumb, big enough
for there to be places at least an hour away on foot.  Call that
5km, which means a 10km circumference if we're talking a sphere.

                                         Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
                                          henry@zoo.toronto.edu   utzoo!henry

=============================================================================
My desires, for permanent move to a space colony, assuming easy communication
and travel:

Size:  About a small-town size, say 9 sq. km.  'Course, bigger is better :-)
Population:  about 100/sq km or less.  So, ~1000 for 9sqkm.  Less is
better for elbow room, more for interest and sanity, so say max 3000, min 300.

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams | 517-355-2178 (work) \\     Inhale to the Chief!
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu  | 336-9591 (hm)\\  Zonker Harris in 1996!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From globusnasnasagov Al Globus
Subject Space Colony Size Preferences Summary
Organization Applied Research Office NASA Ames Research Center
ReplyTo globusnasnasagov
Distribution scispace
Lines 92


Some time ago I sent the following message
   Every once in a while I design an orbital space colony  Im gearing up to
   do another one  Id some info from you If you were to move
   onto a space colony to live permanently how big would the colony have
   to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable  Specifically

   How many people do you want to share the colony with
 

   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have  


   Assume 1g living the colony will rotate  Assume that you can leave
   from time to time for vacations and business trips  If youre young
   enough assume that youll raise your children there

I didnt get a lot of responses and they were all over the block
Thanx muchly to all those who responded it is good food for thought




Heres the edited responses I got


   How many people do you want to share the colony with
 
100

   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have  

Cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long

Rui Sousa
rucasabersipt



   How many people do you want to share the colony with

100000  250000

   What physical dimensions does the living are need to have  

100 square kms surface divided into city towns villages and
countryside  Must have lakes rivers amd mountains



 How many
1000  1000 people really isnt that large a number
everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year and will probably
be sick of everyone else within another year

What physical dimensions does the living are need to have  

Hm  I am not all that great at figuring it out  But I would maximize the
percentage of colonyspace that is accessible to humans  Esecially if there
were to be children since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways
And everyone especially me likes to go exploringI would want to be able
to go for a walk and see something different each time



For population I think I would want a substantial town  big enough
to have strangers in it  This helps get away from the smalltown
everybody knows everything syndrome which some people like but
I dont  Call it several thousand people

For physical dimensions a somewhat similar criterion  big enough
to contain surprises at least until you spent considerable time
getting to know it  As a more specific rule of thumb big enough
for there to be places at least an hour away on foot  Call that
5km which means a 10km circumference if were talking a sphere

                                         Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
                                          henryzootorontoedu   utzoohenry


My desires for permanent move to a space colony assuming easy communication
and travel

Size  About a smalltown size say 9 sq km  Course bigger is better 
Population  about 100sq km or less  So 1000 for 9sqkm  Less is
better for elbow room more for interest and sanity so say max 3000 min 300

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams  5173552178 work \\     Inhale to the Chief
18084tmibmclmsuedu   3369591 hm\\  Zonker Harris in 1996


preprocess doc  From: 8725157m@levels.unisa.edu.au
Subject: Cold gas roll control thruster tanks
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 5

Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets?

Thanks in advance,
Jim.

after prepro  From 8725157mlevelsunisaeduau
Subject Cold gas roll control thruster tanks
Organization University of South Australia
Lines 5

Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets

Thanks in advance
Jim

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>>I think that you are confusing the words "objective" and "inherent."
>>And objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who,
>>given the postulates of the system, could perfectly judge any situation
>>or action as consistent with the system (right) or not (wrong).  You seem
>>to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent.  That is,
>>you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the
>>postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer.
>>I don't think that this is a good definition of an objective system.
>Then you need to learn English.

Really>`?

>Gravity is an objective system.  Anybody can learn what it is, and perform
>experiments.  They will get the same results as every other person who
>has performed those experiments.

No, gravity is an inherent system.  You don't need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything.  It is possible to objectively
determine someone's guilt or innocence within an non-inherent system.
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent (unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis), but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory.

>This "natural morality" is not an objective system, as evidenced by
>your comments about lions, and mine.

Perhaps it can be objective, but not inherent.  Anyway, as I noted before,
the practices related to mating rituals, etc. among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered "immoral" under the previous "definitions"
of the natural law.  Therefore, some revisions are in order, since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems.

>>And in fact, the only way that the postulates could be determined by an
>>outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth, like some
>>sort of god or something.  But, I do not think that a god is necessary
>>for an objective system, while it seems that you do.
>What are you trying to say here?

It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence, which would
necessitate some sort of grand design?

>>No, I have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a
>>moral system.  It is certainly possible for animals to commit acts
>>which are outside of their rules of ethics, but they don't seem to
>>do so very often.  Perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be
>>immoral.
>And perhaps it's because you have yet to define a "moral" system.

I think I have.  It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors, etc.  An immoral behavior could be unwanted, unproductive,
or destructive, etc., depending on the goal of the system (that is,
immoral to what end?).

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re I think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent
And objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who
given the postulates of the system could perfectly judge any situation
or action as consistent with the system right or not wrong  You seem
to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent  That is
you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the
postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer
I dont think that this is a good definition of an objective system
Then you need to learn English

Really`

Gravity is an objective system  Anybody can learn what it is and perform
experiments  They will get the same results as every other person who
has performed those experiments

No gravity is an inherent system  You dont need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything  It is possible to objectively
determine someones guilt or innocence within an noninherent system
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory

This natural morality is not an objective system as evidenced by
your comments about lions and mine

Perhaps it can be objective but not inherent  Anyway as I noted before
the practices related to mating rituals etc among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered immoral under the previous definitions
of the natural law  Therefore some revisions are in order since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems

And in fact the only way that the postulates could be determined by an
outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth like some
sort of god or something  But I do not think that a god is necessary
for an objective system while it seems that you do
What are you trying to say here

It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence which would
necessitate some sort of grand design

No I have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a
moral system  It is certainly possible for animals to commit acts
which are outside of their rules of ethics but they dont seem to
do so very often  Perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be
immoral
And perhaps its because you have yet to define a moral system

I think I have  It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors etc  An immoral behavior could be unwanted unproductive
or destructive etc depending on the goal of the system that is
immoral to what end

keith

preprocess doc  From: adam@sw.stratus.com (Mark Adam)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: paix.sw.stratus.com
Keywords: food

In article <1pr5u2$t0b@agate.berkeley.edu>, ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48) writes:
> The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly.  It was
> most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar."  Sort of
> a toffee injected with vitamins.  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
> approximation of the taste.  Strawberry sucked.
> 

Peanut butter was definitely my favorite. I don't think I ever took a second bite
of the strawberry.

I recently joined Nutri-System and their "Chewy Fudge Bar" is very reminicent of
the chocolate Space Food. This is the only thing I can find that even comes close
the taste. It takes you back... your taste-buds are happy and your
intestines are in knots... joy!

-- 

mark ----------------------------
(adam@paix.sw.stratus.com)	|	My opinions are not those of Stratus.
				|	Hell! I don`t even agree with myself!

	"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad."

after prepro  From adamswstratuscom Mark Adam
Subject Re space food sticks
Organization Stratus Computer Inc
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost paixswstratuscom
Keywords food

In article 1pr5u2t0bagateberkeleyedu ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48 writes
 The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly  It was
 most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar  Sort of
 a toffee injected with vitamins  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
 approximation of the taste  Strawberry sucked
 

Peanut butter was definitely my favorite I dont think I ever took a second bite
of the strawberry

I recently joined NutriSystem and their Chewy Fudge Bar is very reminicent of
the chocolate Space Food This is the only thing I can find that even comes close
the taste It takes you back your tastebuds are happy and your
intestines are in knots joy

 

mark 
adampaixswstratuscom		My opinions are not those of Stratus
					Hell I don`t even agree with myself

	Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: Galileo, JPL



INteresting question about Galileo.

Galileo's HGA  is stuck.   

The HGA was left closed,  because galileo  had a venus flyby.

If the HGA were pointed att he sun,  near venus,  it would
cook the foci elements.

question:  WHy couldn't Galileo's  course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA  did not ever do a sun point.?

After all,  it would normally be aimed at earth anyway?

or would it be that an emergency situation i.e. spacecraft safing
and seek might have caused an HGA sun point?

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords Galileo JPL



INteresting question about Galileo

Galileos HGA  is stuck   

The HGA was left closed  because galileo  had a venus flyby

If the HGA were pointed att he sun  near venus  it would
cook the foci elements

question  WHy couldnt Galileos  course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA  did not ever do a sun point

After all  it would normally be aimed at earth anyway

or would it be that an emergency situation ie spacecraft safing
and seek might have caused an HGA sun point

pat

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: How to get there? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr15.051309.22252@stortek.com>, pg@sanitas.stortek.com (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey (higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov) wrote:
> : While you're at it, comet experts, explain how a comet gets into
> : Jovian orbit to begin with!
> 
> : There are non-gravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a
> : comet gets into the inner solar system.  [...]
> 
> Don't forget the Galilean satellites of Jupiter.  
 
 My poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny
 masses, sitting very close to Jupiter, play any role whatsoever in the
 problem.   Or, to put it more technically, the extra "volume" they add
 to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible.
 
 Jupiter is 2E27 kg, while the Galilean satellites are around 1E23.
 
 Also, as I said, the few references that I've looked at do not
 mention outgassing or breakup as important processes.  The important
 thing is a Jupiter-Sun-comet "reverse slingshot" that leads to a
 weakly Jupiter-bound orbit for the comet (at least a temporary one).
 
 Bill Higgins                       | Late at night she still doth haunt me
 Fermilab                           | Dressed in garments soaked in brine
 Bitnet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | Though in life I used to hug her
 Internet:   HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | Now she's dead, I draw the line!
 SPAN/Hepnet:       43011::HIGGINS  |  --after the tragedy, "Clementine"

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re How to get there was Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1993Apr1505130922252stortekcom pgsanitasstortekcom Paul Gilmartin writes
 Bill Higgins Beam Jockey higginsfnalffnalgov wrote
  While youre at it comet experts explain how a comet gets into
  Jovian orbit to begin with
 
  There are nongravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a
  comet gets into the inner solar system  []
 
 Dont forget the Galilean satellites of Jupiter  
 
 My poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny
 masses sitting very close to Jupiter play any role whatsoever in the
 problem   Or to put it more technically the extra volume they add
 to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible
 
 Jupiter is 2E27 kg while the Galilean satellites are around 1E23
 
 Also as I said the few references that Ive looked at do not
 mention outgassing or breakup as important processes  The important
 thing is a JupiterSuncomet reverse slingshot that leads to a
 weakly Jupiterbound orbit for the comet at least a temporary one
 
 Bill Higgins                        Late at night she still doth haunt me
 Fermilab                            Dressed in garments soaked in brine
 Bitnet       HIGGINSFNALBITNET   Though in life I used to hug her
 Internet   HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   Now shes dead I draw the line
 SPANHepnet       43011HIGGINS    after the tragedy Clementine

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 24

In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer) writes:
>What is the deal with life on Mars?  I save the "face" and heard 
>associated theories. (which sound thin to me)

The "face" is an accident of light and shadow.  There are many "faces" in
landforms on Earth; none is artificial (well, excluding Mount Rushmore and
the like...).  There is also a smiley face on Mars, and a Kermit The Frog.

The question of life in a more mundane sense -- bacteria or the like -- is
not quite closed, although the odds are against it, and the most that the
more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils.

There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life.

>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?

Mars Observer, currently approaching Mars, will probably try to get a better
image or two of the "face" at some point.  It's not high priority; nobody
takes it very seriously.  The shadowed half of the face does not look very
face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 24

In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer writes
What is the deal with life on Mars  I save the face and heard 
associated theories which sound thin to me

The face is an accident of light and shadow  There are many faces in
landforms on Earth none is artificial well excluding Mount Rushmore and
the like  There is also a smiley face on Mars and a Kermit The Frog

The question of life in a more mundane sense  bacteria or the like  is
not quite closed although the odds are against it and the most that the
more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils

There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian

Mars Observer currently approaching Mars will probably try to get a better
image or two of the face at some point  Its not high priority nobody
takes it very seriously  The shadowed half of the face does not look very
facelike so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Abyss: breathing fluids
Article-I.D.: access.1psghn$s7r
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <C4t3K3.498@cck.coventry.ac.uk> enf021@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Achurist) writes:
|
|I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
|the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 2-3 minutes.
|So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on 
|hold, or else!! That's about it. Remember a liquid is several more times
|as dense as a gas by its very nature. ~10 I think, depending on the gas
|and liquid comparision of course!


Could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid.
Sorta like the portable Iron Lung?   Put some sort of flex tubing
around the 'aquanauts' chest.  Cyclically compress it  and it will
push enough on the chest wall to support breathing?????

You'd have to trust your breather,  but in space, you have to trust
your suit anyway.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Abyss breathing fluids
ArticleID access1psghns7r
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article  enf021cckcoventryacuk Achurist writes

I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 23 minutes
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on 
hold or else Thats about it Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature 10 I think depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course


Could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid
Sorta like the portable Iron Lung   Put some sort of flex tubing
around the aquanauts chest  Cyclically compress it  and it will
push enough on the chest wall to support breathing

Youd have to trust your breather  but in space you have to trust
your suit anyway

pat

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Economics
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 14


>If all the ecomomists in the world were laid end to end . . .

>Punchline #1: they would all point in different directions.

>Punchline #2: they wouldn't reach a conclusion.

Punchline #3: it would be a good idea just to leave them there.

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Economics
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 14


If all the ecomomists in the world were laid end to end   

Punchline 1 they would all point in different directions

Punchline 2 they wouldnt reach a conclusion

Punchline 3 it would be a good idea just to leave them there

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: tuinstra@signal.ece.clarkson.edu.soe (Dwight Tuinstra)
Subject: Re: Clementine name
Reply-To: tuinstra@signal.ece.clarkson.edu.soe
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: signal.ece.clarkson.edu

In article F00001@permanet.org, Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>Please go just one step further:
>How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining?
>

Could be the (folk?) song "Clementine".  If memory serves, part of it goes:

   In a cavern, by a canyon,
   Excavating for a mine,
   Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
   and his daughter, Clementine.

Anyone who watched Huckleberry Hound can sing you the chorus :-) 
Is there a story/real person behind the song?

+========================================================================+
|  dwight tuinstra             best:  tuinstra@sandman.ece.clarkson.edu  |
|                         tolerable:  tuinstrd@craft.camp.clarkson.edu   |
|                                                                        |
|        "Homo sapiens: planetary cancer??  ...  News at six"            |
+========================================================================+

after prepro  From tuinstrasignalececlarksonedusoe Dwight Tuinstra
Subject Re Clementine name
ReplyTo tuinstrasignalececlarksonedusoe
Organization Sun Microsystems Inc
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost signalececlarksonedu

In article F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
Please go just one step further
How has the word Clementine been associated with mining


Could be the folk song Clementine  If memory serves part of it goes

   In a cavern by a canyon
   Excavating for a mine
   Dwelt a miner fortyniner
   and his daughter Clementine

Anyone who watched Huckleberry Hound can sing you the chorus  
Is there a storyreal person behind the song


  dwight tuinstra             best  tuinstrasandmanececlarksonedu  
                         tolerable  tuinstrdcraftcampclarksonedu   
                                                                        
        Homo sapiens planetary cancer    News at six            


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15

In article <19930423.010821.639@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>>Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
>>changing them to a seperate agency help anything?
>>
>How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
>able to accept donations to keep craft operational.

The problem is, you can't raise adequate amounts of money that way.
The Viking Fund tried.  They did succeed, in a way, but only because
of the political impact of their fundraising.  The actual amount of
money they raised was fairly inconsequential; it would not have kept
the Viking lander going by itself.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15

In article 19930423010821639almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything

How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational

The problem is you cant raise adequate amounts of money that way
The Viking Fund tried  They did succeed in a way but only because
of the political impact of their fundraising  The actual amount of
money they raised was fairly inconsequential it would not have kept
the Viking lander going by itself
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 20

In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>Why can't the government just be a tennant?

>I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
>current spending rules don't permit it to be workable. 

Actually, that is no longer true. In the last few years Congress has
ammended laws to provide whatever is needed. Note that both Spacehab
and Comet are funded this way.

The problems aren't legal nor technical. The problem is NASA's culture.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        |
|  aws@iti.org     |  nothing undone"                                       |
+----------------------71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 20

In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes

Why cant the government just be a tennant

I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable 

Actually that is no longer true In the last few years Congress has
ammended laws to provide whatever is needed Note that both Spacehab
and Comet are funded this way

The problems arent legal nor technical The problem is NASAs culture

  Allen

 

 Allen W Sherzer  A great man is one who does nothing but leaves        
  awsitiorg       nothing undone                                       
71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 16

In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
>exploration.
>Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..

If raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would
be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long
before the space mines could be built.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 16

In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration
Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth

If raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would
be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long
before the space mines could be built

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters.  Where are they? 
From: belgarath@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Organization: Mankato State University
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Lines: 67

In article <1radsr$att@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>   What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?
> 
> Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
> quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?
> 
> Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   
> 
> my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
> hyperspace :-)
> 
> but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
> are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
> if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.
> 
> pat  
        Well, lets see....I took a class on this last fall, and I have no
notes so I'll try to wing it...  
        Here's how I understand it. Remember from stellar evolution that 
black holes and neutron stars(pulsars) are formed from high mass stars,
M(star)=1.4M(sun).  High mass stars live fast and burn hard, taking
appoximately 10^5-10^7 years before going nova, or supernova.  In this time,
they don't live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane, so any
of these (if assumed to be the sources of GRB's) will be in the plane of the
galaxy.  
        Then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the
various satellites around the solar system, (Pioneer Venus has one, either
Pion. 10 or 11, GINGA, and of course BATSE) and we do distribution tests on our
catalog.  These tests all  show, that the bursts have an isotropic
distribution(evenly spread out in a radial direction), and they show signs of
homogeneity, i.e. they do not clump in any one direction.  So, unless we are
sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy, we are sampling the UNIVERSE.
Not cool, if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things.  Now, I
suppose you are saying, "Well, we stil only may be sampling from inside the
disk."  Well, not necessarily.  Remember, we have what is more or less an
interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out
to beyond Pluto(pioneer 11), so we should be able, with all of our detectors de
tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite.  Here's an 
analogy:  You see a plane overhead.  You measure the angle of the plane from
the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system.  One of your friends a mile
away sees the same plane, and measures the angle from the zero point of his
arbitrary system, which is the same as yours.  The two angles are different,
and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst, and maybe
find a source.  To my knowledge, no one has been able to do this.  
        I should throw in why halo, and corona models don't work, also.  As I
said before, looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts, (short
timescales, high energy) black holes, and pulsars exhibit much of this type of
behavior.  If this is the case, as I said before, these stars seem to be bound
to the disk of the galaxy, especially the most energetic of the these sources.
When you look at a simulated model, where the bursts are confined to the disk,
but you sample out to large distances, say 750 mpc, you should definitely see
not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction, but a clumping of sources 
in the direction of the  galactic center.  As I said before, there is none of
these characteristics.  
        
        I think that's all of it...if someone needs clarification, or knows
something that I don't know, by all means correct me.  I had the honor of
taking the Bursts class with the person who has done the modeling of these
different distributions, so we pretty much kicked around every possible
distribution there was, and some VERY outrageous sources. Colliding pulsars,
black holes, pulsars that are slowing down...stuff like that.   It's a fun
field. 
        Complaints and corrections to: belgarath@vax1.mankato.msus.edu or 
post here.  
                                                        -jeremy

        

after prepro  Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters  Where are they 
From belgarathvax1mankatomsusedu
Organization Mankato State University
NntpPostingHost vax1mankatomsusedu
Lines 67

In article 1radsrattaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
   What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away
 
 Given the enormous  power  i was just wondering  what if they are
 quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by
 
 Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges   
 
 my own pet theory is that its  Flying saucers  entering
 hyperspace 
 
 but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
 are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes  i just wondered
 if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in
 
 pat  
        Well lets seeI took a class on this last fall and I have no
notes so Ill try to wing it  
        Heres how I understand it Remember from stellar evolution that 
black holes and neutron starspulsars are formed from high mass stars
Mstar14Msun  High mass stars live fast and burn hard taking
appoximately 10^510^7 years before going nova or supernova  In this time
they dont live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane so any
of these if assumed to be the sources of GRBs will be in the plane of the
galaxy  
        Then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the
various satellites around the solar system Pioneer Venus has one either
Pion 10 or 11 GINGA and of course BATSE and we do distribution tests on our
catalog  These tests all  show that the bursts have an isotropic
distributionevenly spread out in a radial direction and they show signs of
homogeneity ie they do not clump in any one direction  So unless we are
sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy we are sampling the UNIVERSE
Not cool if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things  Now I
suppose you are saying Well we stil only may be sampling from inside the
disk  Well not necessarily  Remember we have what is more or less an
interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out
to beyond Plutopioneer 11 so we should be able with all of our detectors de
tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite  Heres an 
analogy  You see a plane overhead  You measure the angle of the plane from
the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system  One of your friends a mile
away sees the same plane and measures the angle from the zero point of his
arbitrary system which is the same as yours  The two angles are different
and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst and maybe
find a source  To my knowledge no one has been able to do this  
        I should throw in why halo and corona models dont work also  As I
said before looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts short
timescales high energy black holes and pulsars exhibit much of this type of
behavior  If this is the case as I said before these stars seem to be bound
to the disk of the galaxy especially the most energetic of the these sources
When you look at a simulated model where the bursts are confined to the disk
but you sample out to large distances say 750 mpc you should definitely see
not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction but a clumping of sources 
in the direction of the  galactic center  As I said before there is none of
these characteristics  
        
        I think thats all of itif someone needs clarification or knows
something that I dont know by all means correct me  I had the honor of
taking the Bursts class with the person who has done the modeling of these
different distributions so we pretty much kicked around every possible
distribution there was and some VERY outrageous sources Colliding pulsars
black holes pulsars that are slowing downstuff like that   Its a fun
field 
        Complaints and corrections to belgarathvax1mankatomsusedu or 
post here  
                                                        jeremy

        

preprocess doc  From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Astronomy Program
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 23

In article <28641@galaxy.ucr.edu> datadec@ucrengr.ucr.edu (kevin marcus) writes:
>Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
>map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae,
>and so forth?  If so, is there any ftp site where I can get one?

I posted my public-domain MSDOS program "sunlight.zip" to "sci.astro" yesterday.
It easily locates the sun, moon, and planets, and can also be used to
locate other objects if you input their Right Ascesion and Declination.
Use "uudecode" to extract.


-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

         "Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism"

                             - Heidi Hartmann and Amy Bridges,
                       quoted by Catharine MacKinnon above the first chapter
                       of her "Toward a Feminist Theory of the State"


after prepro  From sheaffernetcomcom Robert Sheaffer
Subject Re Astronomy Program
Organization Netcom  Online Communication Services 408 2419760 guest
Lines 23

In article 28641galaxyucredu datadecucrengrucredu kevin marcus writes
Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae
and so forth  If so is there any ftp site where I can get one

I posted my publicdomain MSDOS program sunlightzip to sciastro yesterday
It easily locates the sun moon and planets and can also be used to
locate other objects if you input their Right Ascesion and Declination
Use uudecode to extract


 
  
        Robert Sheaffer  Scepticus Maximus  sheaffernetcomcom
  
 Past Chairman The Bay Area Skeptics  for whom I speak only when authorized

         Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism

                              Heidi Hartmann and Amy Bridges
                       quoted by Catharine MacKinnon above the first chapter
                       of her Toward a Feminist Theory of the State


preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Nicknames
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21

In article <1993Apr18.231914.143616@zeus.calpoly.edu>,
jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) wrote:
> >Mathew "FAQ" can't remember his last name
> >Keith "Lie Tally .sig" Ryan
> >Kent "Finn-tastic" Sandvick
> >Cindy "Popsicle Toes" Kandolf
> >Jim "Face .sig" Tims
> >Simon "Clip-that-theist" Clippendale
> >Umar "Reasonable" Khan
> >Rob "Argue with G-d" Strom
> >Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> >Maddi "Never a useful post" Hausmann
> 
> Hey, what about an affectionate nickname for me?

You could take my wrongly spelled surname :-).

Cheers,
Kent Sandvik
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Nicknames
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21

In article 1993Apr18231914143616zeuscalpolyedu
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch wrote
 Mathew FAQ cant remember his last name
 Keith Lie Tally sig Ryan
 Kent Finntastic Sandvick
 Cindy Popsicle Toes Kandolf
 Jim Face sig Tims
 Simon Clipthattheist Clippendale
 Umar Reasonable Khan
 Rob Argue with Gd Strom
 Dave Buckminster Fuller
 Maddi Never a useful post Hausmann
 
 Hey what about an affectionate nickname for me

You could take my wrongly spelled surname 

Cheers
Kent Sandvik

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: sgi
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr3.100039.15879@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
|> In <1p8ivt$cfj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next?
|> 
|> I don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying 
|> (1) that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it,
|> and
|> (2) that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC.

I was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa
against Rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally
insulting. 

I think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long
posting, and to say 

	"I don't know if you are doing so, but it 
	seems you are implying....."

is at the very best quite disingenuous, and perhaps even
dishonest.    If anyone care to dig back and read the full
posting, they will see nothing of the kind.

I trust you don't deny that Islamic teaching has "something
to do" with the fatwa against Rushdie?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization sgi
Lines 28
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr310003915879monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 In 1p8ivtcfjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next
 
 I dont know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying 
 1 that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it
 and
 2 that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC

I was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa
against Rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally
insulting 

I think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long
posting and to say 

	I dont know if you are doing so but it 
	seems you are implying

is at the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even
dishonest    If anyone care to dig back and read the full
posting they will see nothing of the kind

I trust you dont deny that Islamic teaching has something
to do with the fatwa against Rushdie

jon

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr15.192037.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 26

>DATE:   15 Apr 93 19:20:37 EDT
>FROM:   kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>
>In article <bskendigC5JCwx.Jzn@netcom.com>, bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>>
>> [s.c.a quotes deleted]
>> 
>> It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
>> to be atheist.  There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
>> I thought...
>
>Well, that explains some things; I posted on soc.religion.islam
>with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
>are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea
>among muslims.  I got no response.  Asking about the unknown,
>I guess...

You should have tried one of the soc.culture groups in the Middle East
or South Asia area (they are a little more open than the Islam channel).  
I think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the 
world created itself (or something like that) so each particle is a God 
which created the other Gods.  The soc.culture.african is also nice for 
some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion.  Especially 
when Sudan is mentioned.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
InReplyTo 1993Apr151920371eaglewesleyanedu
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 26

DATE   15 Apr 93 192037 EDT
FROM   kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu

In article  bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes

 [sca quotes deleted]
 
 It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
 to be atheist  There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
 I thought

Well that explains some things I posted on socreligionislam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonlyheld idea
among muslims  I got no response  Asking about the unknown
I guess

You should have tried one of the socculture groups in the Middle East
or South Asia area they are a little more open than the Islam channel  
I think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the 
world created itself or something like that so each particle is a God 
which created the other Gods  The soccultureafrican is also nice for 
some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion  Especially 
when Sudan is mentioned



preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16, 1993

1.  The Magellan mission at Venus continues normally, gathering gravity
data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper
mantle which can be correlated to surface topography.  Spacecraft
performance is nominal.

2.  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.

3.  No significant activities are expected next week, as preparations
for aerobraking continue on schedule.

4.  On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Magellan Update  041693
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 25
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16 1993

1  The Magellan mission at Venus continues normally gathering gravity
data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper
mantle which can be correlated to surface topography  Spacecraft
performance is nominal

2  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment

3  No significant activities are expected next week as preparations
for aerobraking continue on schedule

4  On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis Chamberlin)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 31


----- News saved at 23 Apr 93 22:22:40 GMT
In article <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
>
> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
>
>  This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary, 
>ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!
  

>  "Light-Years" between galaxies is a misnomer. The distance is 
>closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase 
>of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion. 
>(defining edge = 0 ether spin)  

>  To find out about all of this, I recommend studying history.  

Well, I'm working on it, but getting a little impatient. So far, 
I've made it through Egyptian, Chinese, and Greek cultures, and
up through the Rennaisance. But so far, these insights just don't 
seem to be gelling. Perhaps it's in an appendix somewhere.

In its own right, though, the history is kind of fun. Lots of 
good yarns in there, with varied and interesting characters. And,
more to come.





 

after prepro  From drchambetekig5pentekcom Dennis Chamberlin
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo drchambetekig5pentekcom
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 31


 News saved at 23 Apr 93 222240 GMT
In article 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes

 ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY

  This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary 
ether sucking structures AND why we observe orbital motion
  

  LightYears between galaxies is a misnomer The distance is 
closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase 
of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion 
defining edge  0 ether spin  

  To find out about all of this I recommend studying history  

Well Im working on it but getting a little impatient So far 
Ive made it through Egyptian Chinese and Greek cultures and
up through the Rennaisance But so far these insights just dont 
seem to be gelling Perhaps its in an appendix somewhere

In its own right though the history is kind of fun Lots of 
good yarns in there with varied and interesting characters And
more to come





 

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Nicknames
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 36

Maddi Hausmann (madhaus@netcom.com) wrote:
: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes: >

: >We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
: >Bill.

: Your wish is my command.

: Bill "Shit-stirrer" Connor
: Bobby "Circular" Mozumder

I'm not sure my new nom d'net is exactly appropriate, but it comes
very close. Considering what I have to wade through before I make one
of my insightful, dead-on-the-money repsonses, I have to agree that
something's getting stirred up. I would like to believe my
characterization of what I respond to would be kinder though, but if
you insist ...

I am also surprised to find that I have offended anyone, but in some
cases it's unavoidable if I am to say anything at all. For those to
whom fairness is important, check out my contributions, haven't I been
most generous and patient, a veritable paragon of gentility?

Oh, BTW, I don't mind being paired with Bobby; I admire his tenacity.
How many of you would do as well in this hostile environment - you
think -I'm- offensive ?! read your own posts ...

Love and kisses,

Bill

P.S.

My name is Conner, not Connor. No point in humiliating the innocents.



after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Nicknames
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 36

Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom wrote
 jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes 

 We could start with those posters who annoy us the most like Bobby or
 Bill

 Your wish is my command

 Bill Shitstirrer Connor
 Bobby Circular Mozumder

Im not sure my new nom dnet is exactly appropriate but it comes
very close Considering what I have to wade through before I make one
of my insightful deadonthemoney repsonses I have to agree that
somethings getting stirred up I would like to believe my
characterization of what I respond to would be kinder though but if
you insist 

I am also surprised to find that I have offended anyone but in some
cases its unavoidable if I am to say anything at all For those to
whom fairness is important check out my contributions havent I been
most generous and patient a veritable paragon of gentility

Oh BTW I dont mind being paired with Bobby I admire his tenacity
How many of you would do as well in this hostile environment  you
think Im offensive  read your own posts 

Love and kisses

Bill

PS

My name is Conner not Connor No point in humiliating the innocents



preprocess doc  From: Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu

You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary.

So, she's married to Joseph.  She gets knocked up.  What do you think
ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around?  So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant.  Actually, it
can't be all THAT ridiculous, considering the number of people that
believe it.  Anyway, she never tells anyone the truth, and even tells
poor little Jesus that he's hot shit, the Son of God.  Everyone else
tells him this too, since they've bought Mary's story.  So, what does
Mary actually turn out to be?  An adultress and a liar, and the cause of
mankind's greatest folly...

Just my recently-minted two cents.

Chris

----------------------
Chris Leger
Sophomore, Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always
ignore them!


after prepro  From Patrick C Leger 
Subject Its all Marys fault
Organization Sophomore Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu

You know it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary

So shes married to Joseph  She gets knocked up  What do you think
ol Joe will do if he finds shes been getting around  So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant  Actually it
cant be all THAT ridiculous considering the number of people that
believe it  Anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells
poor little Jesus that hes hot shit the Son of God  Everyone else
tells him this too since theyve bought Marys story  So what does
Mary actually turn out to be  An adultress and a liar and the cause of
mankinds greatest folly

Just my recentlyminted two cents

Chris


Chris Leger
Sophomore Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Rememberif you dont like what somebody is saying you can always
ignore them


preprocess doc  From: cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook)
Subject: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Reply-To: cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cook.mdc.com

All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year 
moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.

If memory serves, the $25k prize would not have been enough to totally 
reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects (such as 
Fokker's, Nungesser and other multi-engine projects). However Lindbergh 
ultimately kept his total costs below that amount.

But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.

Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of 
today?

Layne Cook
cook@apt.mdc.com                                             
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co.

after prepro  From cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook
Subject Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM
Lines 19
Distribution world
ReplyTo cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook
NNTPPostingHost cookmdccom

All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year 
moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers

If memory serves the 25k prize would not have been enough to totally 
reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects such as 
Fokkers Nungesser and other multiengine projects However Lindbergh 
ultimately kept his total costs below that amount

But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
realize that much more was at stake than 25000

Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of 
today

Layne Cook
cookaptmdccom                                             
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 25
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <C5rHoC.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
> I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in 
> connection with their proposal for an early manned landing.  Sorry I don't 
> rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable. 
> Anyone else know anything on this angle?

The General Chairman is Paul Bialla, who is some official of General
Dynamics.

The emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people*
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. You'd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but
there's not a hint of this in the brochure.

> Hrumph.  They didn't send _me_ anything :(

You're not hanging out with the Right People, apparently.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey         | "I'm gonna keep on writing songs
Fermilab                          | until I write the song
Bitnet:      HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | that makes the guys in Detroit
Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | who draw the cars
SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS  | put tailfins on 'em again."
                                            --John Prine

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 25
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article  jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
 I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in 
 connection with their proposal for an early manned landing  Sorry I dont 
 rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable 
 Anyone else know anything on this angle

The General Chairman is Paul Bialla who is some official of General
Dynamics

The emphasis seems to be on a scaleddown fast plan to put people
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflightfunding climate Youd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but
theres not a hint of this in the brochure

 Hrumph  They didnt send _me_ anything 

Youre not hanging out with the Right People apparently

Bill Higgins Beam Jockey          Im gonna keep on writing songs
Fermilab                           until I write the song
Bitnet      HIGGINSFNALBITNET   that makes the guys in Detroit
Internet  HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   who draw the cars
SPANHepnet      43011HIGGINS   put tailfins on em again
                                            John Prine

preprocess doc  From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject:  Level 5
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: sor.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 15

According to a Software engineering professor here, what was actually rated
level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle,
by not means all of it. 

Interesting note: 90% of the software development groups surveyed were at
level 1. The ibm shuttle groups was the *only* one at level 5!

---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/    Nathan F. Wallace                   C/C/           "Reality Is"         C/
C/    e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu   C/C/    ancient Alphaean proverb    C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
 



after prepro  From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject  Level 5
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost sorcscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University  Computer Science Dept
Lines 15

According to a Software engineering professor here what was actually rated
level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle
by not means all of it 

Interesting note 90 of the software development groups surveyed were at
level 1 The ibm shuttle groups was the only one at level 5


CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C    Nathan F Wallace                   CC           Reality Is         C
C    email wallacencscolostateedu   CC    ancient Alphaean proverb    C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 



preprocess doc  From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 15

In a message of <Apr 19 04:55>, jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:

 >In article <1993Apr19.020359.26996@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) 
 >writes:

MB>                                                             So the
MB> 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.

JG>Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.

Couldn't we just say periapsis or apoapsis?

 

--- msged 2.07

after prepro  From MarkPerewp201f208n103z1fidonetorg
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 15

In a message of  jgarlandkeanucsmunca writes

 In article 1993Apr1902035926996sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader 
 writes

MB                                                             So the
MB 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove

JGSorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language

Couldnt we just say periapsis or apoapsis

 

 msged 207

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.234427.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 27
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

Okay here is what I have so far:

Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
that mean no resupply or ?? 

Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.

Contest open to different classes of participants.

New Mexico State has semi-challenged University of Alaska (any branch) to put a
team together and to do it..
Any other University/College/Institute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school? Say it here.

I like the idea of having atleast a russian team.


Some prefer using new technology, others old or ..

The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia.. Atleast in that basic vein of endevour..

Any other suggestions?

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
ArticleID aurora1993Apr202344271
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 27
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

Okay here is what I have so far

Have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon
set up a habitate and have the humans spend one earth year on the moon Does
that mean no resupply or  

Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money

Contest open to different classes of participants

New Mexico State has semichallenged University of Alaska any branch to put a
team together and to do it
Any other UniversityCollegeInstitute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school Say it here

I like the idea of having atleast a russian team


Some prefer using new technology others old or 

The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia Atleast in that basic vein of endevour

Any other suggestions


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr23.001718.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>>  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
>> when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining.
>===
>I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
>miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
>people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
>mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).


Lot's of these small miners  are no longer miners.  THey are people living
rent free on Federal land,  under the claim of being a miner.  The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining,  do not
often even live their full time,  and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage.

These minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's  when the west was
uninhabited  and were designed to bring people into the frontier.  Times change
people change.  DEAL.  you don't have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever.  Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular,  is spouting nonsense.   THis has been a long term
federal welfare program,  that has outlived it's usefulness.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr230017181auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
 when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining

I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point


Lots of these small miners  are no longer miners  THey are people living
rent free on Federal land  under the claim of being a miner  The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining  do not
often even live their full time  and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage

These minign statutes were created inthe 1830s1870s  when the west was
uninhabited  and were designed to bring people into the frontier  Times change
people change  DEAL  you dont have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever  Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular  is spouting nonsense   THis has been a long term
federal welfare program  that has outlived its usefulness

pat

preprocess doc  From: glover@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Eric Glover)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Nntp-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Lines: 45

In article <1993Apr06.020021.186145@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
>and had made it first.  They could have beaten us if either:
>* Their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back,
>and/or
>* A Saturn V went boom.

The Apollo fire was harsh, A Saturn V explosion would have been
hurtful but The Soviets winning would have been crushing. That could have
been *the* technological turning point for the US turning us
from Today's "We can do anything, we're *the* Super Power" to a much more
reserved attitude like the Soviet Program today.

Kennedy was gone by 68\69, the war was still on is the east, I think
the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon
by 70 would have been dead with Nasa trying to figure were they went wrong.
 
>If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
>head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
>determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
>Moon).  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
>upon whether the Soviets tried to go.  Setting up a lunar base
>would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
>that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
>of going to Mars (at least in the short run).  Thus we would
>have concentrated on the moon.

I speulate that:
+The Saturn program would have been pushed into
the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil. 
Nixon still wins.
+The Shuttle was never proposed and Skylab never built.
+By 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis.
+A string of small launches mark the mid seventies.
+By 76 the goal of a US man on the moon is dead and the US space program
drifts till the present day.


>/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
>| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	| 
>| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the 	|
>| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."    		|
>|                  <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> 		|



after prepro  From glovercasbahacnsnwuedu Eric Glover
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
NntpPostingHost unseen1acnsnwuedu
Organization Northwestern University Evanston Illinois
Lines 45

In article 1993Apr06020021186145zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first  They could have beaten us if either
 Their rocket hadnt blown up on the pad thus setting them back
andor
 A Saturn V went boom

The Apollo fire was harsh A Saturn V explosion would have been
hurtful but The Soviets winning would have been crushing That could have
been the technological turning point for the US turning us
from Todays We can do anything were the Super Power to a much more
reserved attitude like the Soviet Program today

Kennedy was gone by 68\69 the war was still on is the east I think
the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon
by 70 would have been dead with Nasa trying to figure were they went wrong
 
If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go  Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run  Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon

I speulate that
The Saturn program would have been pushed into
the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil 
Nixon still wins
The Shuttle was never proposed and Skylab never built
By 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis
A string of small launches mark the mid seventies
By 76 the goal of a US man on the moon is dead and the US space program
drifts till the present day


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	 
 the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the 	
 Moon and returning him safely to the Earth    		
                   		



preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 37

shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:

>On 4 Apr 1993 20:31:10 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:

>Pat> In article <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu>
>Pat> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>Question is can someone give me 10 examples of direct NASA/Space related
>>research that helped humanity in general? It will be interesting to see..

>Pat> TANG :-) Mylar I think.  I think they also pushed Hi Tech
>Pat> Composites for airframes.  Look at Fly by Wire.

>Swept wings--if you fly in airliners you've reaped the benefits.

Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these?
I also think the germans did some work on these in WWII.

>Winglets.  Area ruling.  Digital fly by wire.  Ride smoothing.

A lot of this was also done by the military...

>Microwave landing systems.  Supercritical wings.  General aviation
>air foils.

Weren't the first microwave landing systems from WWII too?

>--
>Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
>shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
> "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot

Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 37

shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes

On 4 Apr 1993 203110 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said

Pat In article 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu
Pat nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Question is can someone give me 10 examples of direct NASASpace related
research that helped humanity in general It will be interesting to see

Pat TANG  Mylar I think  I think they also pushed Hi Tech
Pat Composites for airframes  Look at Fly by Wire

Swept wingsif you fly in airliners youve reaped the benefits

Didnt one of the early jet fighters have these
I also think the germans did some work on these in WWII

Winglets  Area ruling  Digital fly by wire  Ride smoothing

A lot of this was also done by the military

Microwave landing systems  Supercritical wings  General aviation
air foils

Werent the first microwave landing systems from WWII too


Mary Shafer  DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov                    Of course I dont speak for NASA
 A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all  Unknown US fighter pilot

Egad Im disagreeing with Mary Shafer

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 14
	<kmr4.1582.734882394@po.CWRU.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <kmr4.1582.734882394@po.CWRU.edu>

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>         Would you mind e-mailing me the questions, with the pairs of answers?
> I would love to have them for the next time a Theist comes to my door!

I'd like this too... maybe you should post an answer key after a while?

Nanci

.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
It is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your
life.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 14
	
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
         Would you mind emailing me the questions with the pairs of answers
 I would love to have them for the next time a Theist comes to my door

Id like this too maybe you should post an answer key after a while

Nanci


If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
It is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your
life


preprocess doc  From: gmiller@worldbank.org (Gene C. Miller)
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
Organization: worldbank.org
Lines: 37

In article <1993Apr6.013657.5691@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
(David Nye) wrote:
> 
> [reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)]
>  
> >>>     There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
> >>>that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
> >>>what it is).  Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
> >>>atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
> >>> I accept nothing on blind faith.
>  
> >>Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns!  Need I say more?
>  
> >...I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god
> >existing or not.  Some folks call this agnosticism.  It does not suffer
> >from "blind faith" at all.  I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".
>  
> For many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
> epistemological consideration:  what do we accept as a reliable way of
> knowing?  There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
> of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist.  Most
> philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
> must be accepted on faith.  Faith is belief without a sound logical
> basis or empirical evidence.  It is a reliable way of knowing?
>  

Could you expand on your definition of knowing? It seems a bit monolithic
here, but I'm not sure that you intend that. Don't we need, for example, to
distinguish between "knowing" 2 plus 2 equals 4 (or 2 apples plus 2 apples
equals 4 apples), the French "knowing" that Jerry Lewis is an auteur, and
what it means to say we "know" what Socrates said?

> This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
> must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell

I like this epigraph. Perhaps the issue is learning which, if any,
absurdities merit further exploration...Gene

after prepro  From gmillerworldbankorg Gene C Miller
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
Organization worldbankorg
Lines 37

In article 1993Apr60136575691cnsvaxuwecedu nyedacnsvaxuwecedu
David Nye wrote
 
 [reply to zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon]
  
      There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
 that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
 what it is  Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
 atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
  I accept nothing on blind faith
  
 Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns  Need I say more
  
 I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god
 existing or not  Some folks call this agnosticism  It does not suffer
 from blind faith at all  I think of it as Dont worry be happy
  
 For many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
 epistemological consideration  what do we accept as a reliable way of
 knowing  There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
 of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist  Most
 philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
 must be accepted on faith  Faith is belief without a sound logical
 basis or empirical evidence  It is a reliable way of knowing
  

Could you expand on your definition of knowing It seems a bit monolithic
here but Im not sure that you intend that Dont we need for example to
distinguish between knowing 2 plus 2 equals 4 or 2 apples plus 2 apples
equals 4 apples the French knowing that Jerry Lewis is an auteur and
what it means to say we know what Socrates said

 This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
 must learn not to be frightened by absurdities  Bertrand Russell

I like this epigraph Perhaps the issue is learning which if any
absurdities merit further explorationGene

preprocess doc  From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Russian Phobos Mission
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 6


  Did the Russian spacecraft(s) on the ill-fated Phobos mission a few
years ago send back any images of the Martian moon?  If so, does anyone know if
they're housed at an ftp site?
  Thanks.
 

after prepro  From arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler
Subject Russian Phobos Mission
Organization California State University Sacramento
Lines 6


  Did the Russian spacecrafts on the illfated Phobos mission a few
years ago send back any images of the Martian moon  If so does anyone know if
theyre housed at an ftp site
  Thanks
 

preprocess doc  From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Lines: 17

Phil G. Fraering writes:

> Mark Brader writes:

>> Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>> me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>> has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>> Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>> Same person?

> No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
> is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.

You may change that to 100% certainty.  But to clarify, Spacewatch is a
University of Arizona project using a telescope of the Steward Observatory
located on Kitt Peak.  It is not associated with Kitt Peak National
Observatory, other than sharing a mountain.

after prepro  From tholengalileoifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Institute for Astronomy Hawaii
Lines 17

Phil G Fraering writes

 Mark Brader writes

 Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
 me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
 has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
 Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
 Same person

 No I estimate a 99  probability the Gehrels referred to
 is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory

You may change that to 100 certainty  But to clarify Spacewatch is a
University of Arizona project using a telescope of the Steward Observatory
located on Kitt Peak  It is not associated with Kitt Peak National
Observatory other than sharing a mountain

preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


In article <1psgs1$so4@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>|
>|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
>|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing.  On the other
>|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
>|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
>|can't do.
>|
>
>What do you mean?  Overstress the wings,  and they fail at teh joints?
>
>You'll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands.

No, they fold on the dotted line.  Look at pictures of carriers with loads of
a/c on the deck, wings all neatly folded.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |God gave us weather so we wouldn't complain
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |about other things.
PADI DM-54909                     |


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


In article 1psgs1so4accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing  On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do


What do you mean  Overstress the wings  and they fail at teh joints

Youll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands

No they fold on the dotted line  Look at pictures of carriers with loads of
ac on the deck wings all neatly folded

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     God gave us weather so we wouldnt complain
pyronskndivdsegticom          about other things
PADI DM54909                     


preprocess doc  From: sichase@csa2.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <pgf.735606045@srl02.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes...
>Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:
>....
>>people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
>>and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D
> 
>Seen that movie already. Or one just like it.
>Come to think of it, they might send someone on
>a quest to get rid of the dang thing...

Actually, the idea, like most good ideas, comes from Jules Verne, not
_The Gods Must Be Crazy._  In one of his lesser known books (I can't
remember which one right now), the protagonists are in a balloon gondola,
travelling over Africa on their way around the world in the balloon, when
one of them drops a fob watch.  They then speculate about the reaction
of the natives to finding such a thing, dropped straight down from heaven.
But the notion is not pursued further than that.

-Scott
--------------------                          New .sig under construction
Scott I. Chase                                     Please be patient
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV                                   Thank you 

after prepro  From sichasecsa2lblgov SCOTT I CHASE
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory  Berkeley CA USA
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost 1283254197
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article  pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering writes
JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes

people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D
 
Seen that movie already Or one just like it
Come to think of it they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing

Actually the idea like most good ideas comes from Jules Verne not
_The Gods Must Be Crazy_  In one of his lesser known books I cant
remember which one right now the protagonists are in a balloon gondola
travelling over Africa on their way around the world in the balloon when
one of them drops a fob watch  They then speculate about the reaction
of the natives to finding such a thing dropped straight down from heaven
But the notion is not pursued further than that

Scott
                          New sig under construction
Scott I Chase                                     Please be patient
SICHASECSA2LBLGOV                                   Thank you 

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Drag free satellites (was: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: JPL



Joe,

	your description sounds like one of the  gravity probe  spacecraft
ideas.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Drag free satellites was Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 8
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords JPL



Joe

	your description sounds like one of the  gravity probe  spacecraft
ideas

pat

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
Lines: 37
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 37

In article <sandvik-140493185034@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
>Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 01:51:57 GMT
>In article <healta.135.734811375@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu
>(TAMMY R HEALY) wrote:
>> Ezekiel 28:17 says, Your hart was filled with pride because of all your 
>> beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.  Therefore 
>> I have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the 
>> curious gaze of Kings."
>
>> For those of you who are Bible scholars, you knowthat the 1st 11 verses 
>> refer to the Prince of Tyre.  This is a prophesy about and addressed to the 
>> human prince.  Verses 12-19 refer to the King of Tyre, which is a term for 
>> Satan.
>
>Tammy, what's the rationale to connect the prince of Tyre with Satan,
>could you give us more rational bible cites, thanks? I'm afraid that
>if this is not the case, your thinking model falls apart like a house
>of cards. But let's see!
>
>Cheers,
>Kent
>---
>sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

At the time Ezekiel was written, Israel was in apostacy again and if I'm not 
mistaken, Tyre was about to make war on Israel.  Like I said, the Prince of 
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre.  He was a wicked man.  By calling Satan 
the King of Tyre, Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre.

Don't think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox Christian one, 
although most Christian Bible commentaries interpret the King of Tyre as 
being a reference to Satan. (I haven't read Ezekiel throughly in a long 
time.)

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Lines 37
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 37

In article  sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 015157 GMT
In article  healtasaturnwwcedu
TAMMY R HEALY wrote
 Ezekiel 2817 says Your hart was filled with pride because of all your 
 beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor  Therefore 
 I have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the 
 curious gaze of Kings

 For those of you who are Bible scholars you knowthat the 1st 11 verses 
 refer to the Prince of Tyre  This is a prophesy about and addressed to the 
 human prince  Verses 1219 refer to the King of Tyre which is a term for 
 Satan

Tammy whats the rationale to connect the prince of Tyre with Satan
could you give us more rational bible cites thanks Im afraid that
if this is not the case your thinking model falls apart like a house
of cards But lets see

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

At the time Ezekiel was written Israel was in apostacy again and if Im not 
mistaken Tyre was about to make war on Israel  Like I said the Prince of 
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre  He was a wicked man  By calling Satan 
the King of Tyre Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre

Dont think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox Christian one 
although most Christian Bible commentaries interpret the King of Tyre as 
being a reference to Satan I havent read Ezekiel throughly in a long 
time

Tammy

preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 26
	<1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu>	<STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu>	<1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu>,<STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>
	<1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu's message of 21 Apr 1993 19:16:51 GMT

In article <1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:

   In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

   >Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)

   Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!

Hell, yes. I'm not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell
me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is, at
least not until they can make their mind up long enough
to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two.


Seriously though. If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective, what answer do you think you'd get? What if you asked
in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-)

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	*
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	*
*  If you ever have to go to Shoeburyness			*
*  Take the A-road, the ok road, that's the best!		*
*  Go motoring on The A13!	- BB 1983			*



after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 26
	1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu		1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu
	1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto sysmgrkingengumdedus message of 21 Apr 1993 191651 GMT

In article 1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes

   In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

   Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method 

   Sherzer Methodology

Hell yes Im not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell
me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is at
least not until they can make their mind up long enough
to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two


Seriously though If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective what answer do you think youd get What if you asked
in 1765 1815 1865 1915 and 1945 respectively 

  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	
  steinlylickucscedu		standard disclaimer  	
  If you ever have to go to Shoeburyness			
  Take the Aroad the ok road thats the best		
  Go motoring on The A13	 BB 1983			



preprocess doc  From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 20

In article <STEINLY.93Apr23130246@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>In article <1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu> jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust) writes:
>
>   In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>   >	If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
>   >one  should be called 'Smiley'.
>
>   Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
>   object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.
>
>As it happens the _second_ one is Karla. The first one was
>Smiley. All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course,
>but I think they might let this one slide...

	Gee, I feel so ignorant now...

	Research, then post.

							James Nicoll


after prepro  From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Western Ontario London
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 20

In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
In article 1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust writes

   In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
   	If the  new  Kuiper belt object is  called Karla the next
   one  should be called Smiley

   Unless Im imaging things always a possibility  1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
   object discovered last year is known as Smiley

As it happens the _second_ one is Karla The first one was
Smiley All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course
but I think they might let this one slide

	Gee I feel so ignorant now

	Research then post

							James Nicoll


preprocess doc  From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Subject: SSF Redesign: Constellation
Summary: decentralize & automate functions
Keywords: space station, constellation
Article-I.D.: techbook.C51z6E.CL1
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Lines: 89

SSF is up for redesign again.  Let's do it right this
time!  Let's step back and consider the functionality we want:

[1] microgravity/vacuum process research
[2] life sciences research (adaptation to space)
[3] spacecraft maintenence 

The old NASA approach, explified by Shuttle and SSF so far, was to
centralize functionality.  These projects failed to meet
their targets by a wide margin: the military and commercial users 
took most of their payloads off Shuttle after wasting much effort to 
tie their payloads to it, and SSF has crumbled into disorganization
and miscommunication.  Over $50 billion has been spent on these
two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement
in commercial space industrialization.  Meanwhile, military and commercial 
users have come up with a superior strategy for space development: the 
constellation.  

Firstly, different functions are broken down into different 
constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function:
thus we have the GPS/Navstar constellation in 12-hour orbits,
comsats in Clarke and Molniya orbits, etc.  Secondly, the task
is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation,
providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed.

SSF's 3 main functions require quite different environments
and are also prime candidates for constellization.

[1] We have the makings of a microgravity constellation now:
COMET and Mir for long-duration flights, Shuttle/Spacelab for
short-duration flights.  The best strategy for this area is
inexpensive, incremental improvement: installation of U.S. facilities 
on Mir, Shuttle/Mir linkup, and transition from Shuttle/Spacelab
to a much less expensive SSTO/Spacehab/COMET or SSTO/SIF/COMET.
We might also expand the research program to take advantage of 
interesting space environments, eg the high-radiation Van Allen belt 
or gas/plasma gradients in comet tails.  The COMET system can
be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks, where a 
station is too large to affordably launch beyond LEO.

[2] We need to study life sciences not just in microgravity,
but also in lunar and Martian gravities, and in the radiation
environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter
of LEO.  This is a very long-term, low-priority project, since
astronauts will have little practical use in the space program
until costs come down orders of magnitude.  Furthermore, using
astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation,
and the sample size.  So I propose LabRatSat, a constellation
tether-bolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity
in super-Van-Allen-Belt orbits that are representative of the
radiation environment encountered on Earth-Moon, Earth-Mars,
Earth-asteroid, etc. trips.  The miniaturized life support
machinery might be operated real-time from earth thru a VR
interface.  AFter several orbital missions have been flown,
follow-ons can act as LDEFs on the lunar and Martian surface,
testing out the actual environment at low cost before $billions
are spent on astronauts.

[3] By far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in 
Clarke orbit.  I propose a fleet of small teleoperated
robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can
practice their skills.  Once in place, robots can pry stuck
solar arrays and antennas, attach solar battery power packs,
inject fuel, etc.  Once the fleet is working, it can be
spun off to commercial company(s) who can work with the comsat
companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards.

By applying the successful constellation strategy, and getting
rid of the failed centralized strategy of STS and old SSF, we
have radically improved the capability of the program while
greatly cutting its cost.  For a fraction of SSF's pricetag,
we can fix satellites where the satellites are, we can study
life's adaptation to a much large & more representative variety 
of space environments, and we can do microgravity and vacuum
research inexpensively and, if needed, in special-purpose
orbits.

N.B., we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration
as well, greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality.  
Mars Network and Artemis are two good examples of this; more ambitiously 
we can set up a network of native propellant plants on Mars that can be used
to fuel planet-wide rover/ballistic hopper prospecting and
sample return.  The descendants of LabRatSat's technology can
be used as a Mars surface LDEF and to test out closed-ecology
greenhouses on Mars at low cost.


-- 
Nick Szabo					 szabo@techboook.com

after prepro  From szabotechbookcom Nick Szabo
Subject SSF Redesign Constellation
Summary decentralize  automate functions
Keywords space station constellation
ArticleID techbookC51z6ECL1
Organization TECHbooks  Public Access UNIX  503 2200636
Lines 89

SSF is up for redesign again  Lets do it right this
time  Lets step back and consider the functionality we want

[1] microgravityvacuum process research
[2] life sciences research adaptation to space
[3] spacecraft maintenence 

The old NASA approach explified by Shuttle and SSF so far was to
centralize functionality  These projects failed to meet
their targets by a wide margin the military and commercial users 
took most of their payloads off Shuttle after wasting much effort to 
tie their payloads to it and SSF has crumbled into disorganization
and miscommunication  Over 50 billion has been spent on these
two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement
in commercial space industrialization  Meanwhile military and commercial 
users have come up with a superior strategy for space development the 
constellation  

Firstly different functions are broken down into different 
constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function
thus we have the GPSNavstar constellation in 12hour orbits
comsats in Clarke and Molniya orbits etc  Secondly the task
is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation
providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed

SSFs 3 main functions require quite different environments
and are also prime candidates for constellization

[1] We have the makings of a microgravity constellation now
COMET and Mir for longduration flights ShuttleSpacelab for
shortduration flights  The best strategy for this area is
inexpensive incremental improvement installation of US facilities 
on Mir ShuttleMir linkup and transition from ShuttleSpacelab
to a much less expensive SSTOSpacehabCOMET or SSTOSIFCOMET
We might also expand the research program to take advantage of 
interesting space environments eg the highradiation Van Allen belt 
or gasplasma gradients in comet tails  The COMET system can
be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks where a 
station is too large to affordably launch beyond LEO

[2] We need to study life sciences not just in microgravity
but also in lunar and Martian gravities and in the radiation
environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter
of LEO  This is a very longterm lowpriority project since
astronauts will have little practical use in the space program
until costs come down orders of magnitude  Furthermore using
astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation
and the sample size  So I propose LabRatSat a constellation
tetherbolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity
in superVanAllenBelt orbits that are representative of the
radiation environment encountered on EarthMoon EarthMars
Earthasteroid etc trips  The miniaturized life support
machinery might be operated realtime from earth thru a VR
interface  AFter several orbital missions have been flown
followons can act as LDEFs on the lunar and Martian surface
testing out the actual environment at low cost before billions
are spent on astronauts

[3] By far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in 
Clarke orbit  I propose a fleet of small teleoperated
robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can
practice their skills  Once in place robots can pry stuck
solar arrays and antennas attach solar battery power packs
inject fuel etc  Once the fleet is working it can be
spun off to commercial companys who can work with the comsat
companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards

By applying the successful constellation strategy and getting
rid of the failed centralized strategy of STS and old SSF we
have radically improved the capability of the program while
greatly cutting its cost  For a fraction of SSFs pricetag
we can fix satellites where the satellites are we can study
lifes adaptation to a much large  more representative variety 
of space environments and we can do microgravity and vacuum
research inexpensively and if needed in specialpurpose
orbits

NB we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration
as well greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality  
Mars Network and Artemis are two good examples of this more ambitiously 
we can set up a network of native propellant plants on Mars that can be used
to fuel planetwide roverballistic hopper prospecting and
sample return  The descendants of LabRatSats technology can
be used as a Mars surface LDEF and to test out closedecology
greenhouses on Mars at low cost


 
Nick Szabo					 szabotechboookcom

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 36

In article <keithley-220493104229@kip-37.apple.com> keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
>Ah, there's the rub.  And a catch-22 to boot.  For the purposes of a
>contest, you'll probably not compete if'n you can't afford the ride to get
>there.  And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable, without
>demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system...

You're assuming that the low-cost delivery system has to be a separate
project.  But why?  If you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars
in hopes of winning a billion-dollar prize, it is *cheaper* to develop
your own launch system, charging its entire development cost against
your contest entry, than to try to do it with existing launchers.  No
other demand is necessary.

>> Any plan for doing
>> sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
>> money in a big way.
>
>This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line.  In other
>words, perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology (life support,
>navigation, etc.) could be developed prior to a low cost launch system. 
>You wouldn't want to use the expensive stuff forever, but I'd hate to see
>folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac, oops, I mean launch
>system comes on line.

You're assuming that it's going to take a decade to build a new launch
system.  But why?  The Saturn V took less than six years, depending on
exactly when you date its start.  Pegasus took about three from project
start to first flight.  Before SDIO chickened out on orbital development,
the target date for an orbital DC-Y flight was 1996.  If you really want
speed, consider that the first prototypes of the Thor missile (still in
service as the core of the Delta launcher) shipped to the USAF less
than 18 months after the development go-ahead.

One of the most pernicious myths in this whole business is the belief
that you can't build a launcher without taking ten years and spending
billions of dollars.  It isn't true and never was.

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 36

In article  keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley writes
Ah theres the rub  And a catch22 to boot  For the purposes of a
contest youll probably not compete ifn you cant afford the ride to get
there  And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system

Youre assuming that the lowcost delivery system has to be a separate
project  But why  If you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars
in hopes of winning a billiondollar prize it is cheaper to develop
your own launch system charging its entire development cost against
your contest entry than to try to do it with existing launchers  No
other demand is necessary

 Any plan for doing
 sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
 money in a big way

This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line  In other
words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support
navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system 
You wouldnt want to use the expensive stuff forever but Id hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac oops I mean launch
system comes on line

Youre assuming that its going to take a decade to build a new launch
system  But why  The Saturn V took less than six years depending on
exactly when you date its start  Pegasus took about three from project
start to first flight  Before SDIO chickened out on orbital development
the target date for an orbital DCY flight was 1996  If you really want
speed consider that the first prototypes of the Thor missile still in
service as the core of the Delta launcher shipped to the USAF less
than 18 months after the development goahead

One of the most pernicious myths in this whole business is the belief
that you cant build a launcher without taking ten years and spending
billions of dollars  It isnt true and never was

preprocess doc  From: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Don M. Gibson)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Nntp-Posting-Host: lexus
Reply-To: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
Lines: 21

In article F23@zoo.toronto.edu, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
>
>Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
>to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation.  Of
>course, they may be over-optimistic.
>
>You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
>that would help pay for its development costs.
>
>I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.

this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie.  wouldn't there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough?  if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10Mil,
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero.
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich.
--DonG

after prepro  From dongoakhillspsmotcom Don M Gibson
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
NntpPostingHost lexus
ReplyTo dongoakhillspsmotcom
Organization Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
Lines 21

In article F23zootorontoedu henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists

Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation  Of
course they may be overoptimistic

You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs

Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough

this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie  wouldnt there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough  if you have a 1100 chance and it costs you 10Mil
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich
DonG

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Event near Los Angeles, CA
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 55

Apologies if this gets posted twice, but I don't think the first one
made it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact:  OASIS (310) 364-2290

   15 April 1993                                Los Angeles, CA

     LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY L.A.
  ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD

   On April 21, the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National 
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System (LPS) co-
inventor and vice-president of the LPS Coalition, Dr. Robert D.
Waldron.  It will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks, CA.

   Dr. Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey, California.  He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement.  He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization.  Along with Dr. David
Criswell, Waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept.

   Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal
experts, and Soviet and U.S. scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System, a pollution-free, energy source with a
potential to power the globe.

   For the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half
from California, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon.

   The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae.  A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean, sustainable power to meet the Earth's ever
increasing demand using proven, basic technology.

   OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization) is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society, which is an international non-profit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier.
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard, CA.

       WHERE:  Rockwell Science Center Auditorium, 1049 Camino
               Dos Rios, Thousand Oaks, CA.

   DIRECTIONS: Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks, exit onto
               Lynn Road heading North (right turn from 101
               North, Left turn from 101 South), after about 1/2
               mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios, after about 1/2
               mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
               Colindo, Parking at Top of Hill to the Left


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Event near Los Angeles CA
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 55

Apologies if this gets posted twice but I dont think the first one
made it

   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE           Contact  OASIS 310 3642290

   15 April 1993                                Los Angeles CA

     LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY LA
  ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD

   On April 21 the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National 
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System LPS co
inventor and vicepresident of the LPS Coalition Dr Robert D
Waldron  It will be held at 730 pm at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks CA

   Dr Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey California  He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement  He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization  Along with Dr David
Criswell Waldron invented the lunarsolar power system concept

   Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal
experts and Soviet and US scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System a pollutionfree energy source with a
potential to power the globe

   For the past three years members of the coalition nearly half
from California have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon

   The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae  A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean sustainable power to meet the Earths ever
increasing demand using proven basic technology

   OASIS Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society which is an international nonprofit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard CA

       WHERE  Rockwell Science Center Auditorium 1049 Camino
               Dos Rios Thousand Oaks CA

   DIRECTIONS Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks exit onto
               Lynn Road heading North right turn from 101
               North Left turn from 101 South after about 12
               mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios after about 12
               mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
               Colindo Parking at Top of Hill to the Left


preprocess doc  From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 59

nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls) writes:

>In <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> George F. Krumins writes:
>>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
> Umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about
>here ..
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>Greg Nicholls ...         : Vidi
>nicho@vnet.ibm.com or     : Vici
>nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni

I was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers
have the right to a dark, uncluttered night sky.

Let me give you an example.  When you watch TV, they have commercials to pay
for the programming.  You accept that as part of watching.  If you don't like
it, you can turn it off.  If you want to view the night sky, and there is a
floating billboard out there, you can't turn it off.  It's the same 
reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas.

Pat writes:
George.

	It's called a democracy.  The majority rules.  sorry.
If ytou don't like it, I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies.   The theory of government
here is that the majority rules,  except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights.

I say: 
	Any reasonably in-depth perusal of American history will show
	you that many WASPs have continued the practices of prejudice,
	discrimination, and violence against others of different
	races, religions, and beliefs, despite the law.

Pat says:
If you really are annoyed,   get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone,  where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone.  Kind of like the national radio quiet zone.  Did you
know about that?  near teh Radio telescope  observatory in West virginia,
they have a 90?????? mile EMCON zone.  Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors, like air conditioners and Vacuums.
In practice, they use it mostly to  control  large radio users.

I say:
What I'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably,
would move around in the sky.  I, for one, am against legislating
at all.  I just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and
would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and
aesthetic values that make us human.  This includes the need for wild
and unspoiled things, including the night sky.

George
-- 
|  George Krumins                     /^\        The Serpent and the Rainbow  | 
|  gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu       <^^. .^^>                                  |
|  Pufferish Observatory           <_ (o) _>                                  |
|                                     \_/                                     | 

after prepro  From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 59

nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls writes

In  George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
 Umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about
here 
 
Greg Nicholls           Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or      Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk  Veni

I was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers
have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky

Let me give you an example  When you watch TV they have commercials to pay
for the programming  You accept that as part of watching  If you dont like
it you can turn it off  If you want to view the night sky and there is a
floating billboard out there you cant turn it off  Its the same 
reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas

Pat writes
George

	Its called a democracy  The majority rules  sorry
If ytou dont like it I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies   The theory of government
here is that the majority rules  except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights

I say 
	Any reasonably indepth perusal of American history will show
	you that many WASPs have continued the practices of prejudice
	discrimination and violence against others of different
	races religions and beliefs despite the law

Pat says
If you really are annoyed   get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone  where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone  Kind of like the national radio quiet zone  Did you
know about that  near teh Radio telescope  observatory in West virginia
they have a 90 mile EMCON zone  Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors like air conditioners and Vacuums
In practice they use it mostly to  control  large radio users

I say
What Im objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably
would move around in the sky  I for one am against legislating
at all  I just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and
would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and
aesthetic values that make us human  This includes the need for wild
and unspoiled things including the night sky

George
 
  George Krumins                     ^\        The Serpent and the Rainbow   
  gfk39017uxacsouiucedu       ^^ ^^                                  
  Pufferish Observatory           _ o _                                  
                                     \_                                      

preprocess doc  From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: The Area Rule
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 12

I read it refered to as the "parabolic cross-section" rule;
the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross-
section as a function of the point fore-and-aft along the 
fuselage, a plot that is a **paraboloid** minimizes somethin' 
or 'nother (to be technical about it).


-- 
* Fred Baube (tm)         *  In times of intellectual ferment,
* baube@optiplan.fi       * advantage to him with the intellect
* #include <disclaimer.h> * most fermented
* May '68, Paris: It's Retrospective Time !!  

after prepro  From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject The Area Rule
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 12

I read it refered to as the parabolic crosssection rule
the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross
section as a function of the point foreandaft along the 
fuselage a plot that is a paraboloid minimizes somethin 
or nother to be technical about it


 
 Fred Baube tm           In times of intellectual ferment
 baubeoptiplanfi        advantage to him with the intellect
 include   most fermented
 May 68 Paris Its Retrospective Time   

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: I don't beleive in you either.
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 9

In article <1993Apr13.213055.818@antioc.antioch.edu>, smauldin@antioc.antioch.edu writes:
|> I stopped believing in you as well, long before the invention of technology.
|> 
|> --GOD
|> 

Ahhh go back to alt.autotheism where you belong!

Brian /-|-\

after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re I dont beleive in you either
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 9

In article 1993Apr13213055818antiocantiochedu smauldinantiocantiochedu writes
 I stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology
 
 GOD
 

Ahhh go back to altautotheism where you belong

Brian \

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Lines: 48

>So then, you require the same amount of evidence to believe that I 
>a) own a pair of bluejeans and b) have superhuman powers?

Well, I could use the argument that some here use about "nature" and claim
that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human; superhuman
powers are beyond what a human has, and since you are a human, any powers
you have are not beyond those of a human.  Hence, you cannot have superhuman
powers.  Sound good to you?

Anyway, to the evidence question: it depends on the context.  In this group,
since you are posting from a american college site, I'm willing to take it
as given that you have a pair of blue jeans.  And, assuming there is some
coherency in your position, I will take it as a given that you do not have
superhuman powers.  Arguments are evidence in themselves, in some respects.

>When you say the "existence of [ sic ] Jesus", I assume that you 
>mean just the man, without any special powers, etc.

Yep.

>Many will agree that it is very possible that a man called Jesus DID 
>in fact live. In fact, I am willing to agree that there was some man named 
>Jesus. I have no reason to believe that there wasn't ever a man.

Good.

>However, most of the claims ARE extradinary: eg virgin birth 
>[ virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse ], resurection, 
>Son of God, etc. THOSE claims require extra evidence.

"Extra" evidence?  Why don't we start with evidence at all?

I cannot see any evidence for the V. B. which the cynics in this group would
ever accept.  As for the second, it is the foundation of the religion.
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus (back in the 40 day period)
is a believer, and therefore is discounted by those in this group; since
these are all ancients anyway, one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing.  The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else--
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it *means*, so
again I don't see how evidence is possible.

I thus interpret the "extraordinary claims" claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept *any* evidence on the matter.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Lines 48

So then you require the same amount of evidence to believe that I 
a own a pair of bluejeans and b have superhuman powers

Well I could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim
that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human superhuman
powers are beyond what a human has and since you are a human any powers
you have are not beyond those of a human  Hence you cannot have superhuman
powers  Sound good to you

Anyway to the evidence question it depends on the context  In this group
since you are posting from a american college site Im willing to take it
as given that you have a pair of blue jeans  And assuming there is some
coherency in your position I will take it as a given that you do not have
superhuman powers  Arguments are evidence in themselves in some respects

When you say the existence of [ sic ] Jesus I assume that you 
mean just the man without any special powers etc

Yep

Many will agree that it is very possible that a man called Jesus DID 
in fact live In fact I am willing to agree that there was some man named 
Jesus I have no reason to believe that there wasnt ever a man

Good

However most of the claims ARE extradinary eg virgin birth 
[ virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse ] resurection 
Son of God etc THOSE claims require extra evidence

Extra evidence  Why dont we start with evidence at all

I cannot see any evidence for the V B which the cynics in this group would
ever accept  As for the second it is the foundation of the religion
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus back in the 40 day period
is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since
these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing  The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so
again I dont see how evidence is possible

I thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql7utINN5sg@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
|> >the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong.
|> 
|> If you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what
|> purpose in mind.  Then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be
|> able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
|> with the general goal.

But now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way,
and I don't think you've even noticed.

In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.

But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
other species, either terrestrial or alien.

Does that make it moral to do so?

jon. 

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Objective morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
 the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong
 
 If you were omniscient youd know who exactly did what and with what
 purpose in mind  Then with a particular goal in mind you sould be
 able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
 with the general goal

But now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way
and I dont think youve even noticed

In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive

But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
other species either terrestrial or alien

Does that make it moral to do so

jon 

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 24

In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN
LAWRENCE BISSELL) wrote:
> 
> 	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
> makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
> lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
> writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
> in the process he became a Christian himself.

Seems he didn't understand anything about realities, liar, lunatic
or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of Jesus
message.

Sigh, it seems religion makes your mind/brain filter out anything
that does not fit into your personal scheme. 

So anyone that thinks the possibilities with Jesus is bound to the
classical Lewis notion of 'liar, lunatic or saint' is indeed bound
to become a Christian.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 24

In article  bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN
LAWRENCE BISSELL wrote
 
 	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
 makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
 lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
 writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
 in the process he became a Christian himself

Seems he didnt understand anything about realities liar lunatic
or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of Jesus
message

Sigh it seems religion makes your mindbrain filter out anything
that does not fit into your personal scheme 

So anyone that thinks the possibilities with Jesus is bound to the
classical Lewis notion of liar lunatic or saint is indeed bound
to become a Christian

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 31

In article <1ql0d3$5vo@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM> geoff@East.Sun.COM writes:
>Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
>posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
>subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
>was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
>the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
>such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
>saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:
>
>>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
>
>An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?

Didn't you hear?  His address has changed.  He can be reached at the 
following address:

dkoresh@branch.davidian.compound.waco.tx.us

I think he was last seen posting to alt.messianic.

Jim
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part                    | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse       | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse        | Nothing

after prepro  From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 31

In article 1ql0d35vodrpepperEastSunCOM geoffEastSunCOM writes
Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables

From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky

An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is

Didnt you hear  His address has changed  He can be reached at the 
following address

dkoreshbranchdavidiancompoundwacotxus

I think he was last seen posting to altmessianic

Jim

If God is dead and the actor plays his part                      Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart  History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse        Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse         Nothing

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <66486@mimsy.umd.edu>, mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
|> Jeff West writes:
|> 
|> >You claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would
|> >also take the time to get it right.  But here in less than a couple
|> >generations you've been given ample proof (agreed to by yourself above)
|> >that the "new" versions "tends to be out of step with other modern
|> >translations."
|> 
|> What I said was that people took time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly.
|> Translations present completely different issues.

So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had "different
versions" of some OT texts.   Did I misunderstand?

jon. 

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization sgi
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 66486mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 Jeff West writes
 
 You claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would
 also take the time to get it right  But here in less than a couple
 generations youve been given ample proof agreed to by yourself above
 that the new versions tends to be out of step with other modern
 translations
 
 What I said was that people took time to copy the text correctly
 Translations present completely different issues

So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had different
versions of some OT texts   Did I misunderstand

jon 

preprocess doc  From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War
Lines: 232

In article <930419.115707.6f2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>In article <930414.121019.7E4.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
>><mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>> Yes.  Fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power
>>> and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o
>>> thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait.  We won the war,
>>> hurrah hurrah!
>> 
>> The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and 
>> exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media.  The
>> facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians 
>> in any other war of comparable size this century!
> 
> Let's analyze this claim a little.  How is the "size" of a war defined?  By
> number of participants?  Geographical area?  Number of countries involved? 
> Number of casualties?

Size of armies, duration, numbers of casualties both absolute and as a
percentage of those involved, geographical area and numbers of countries
too, are all measures of size.  In this case I'd say the relevant
statistic would be the number of combatants (total troops) compared to
total casualties from among the total civilian population in the
affected geographical area.

> 
> Which other "comparable" wars are we talking about?

Vietnam and Korea might make good comparisons.

> 
> Which "liberal news media" are we talking about?
> 

Western news in general, but in particular the American "mass media":
CBS, NBC, ABC, etc.  The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of "those poor, poor Iraqis" along with "look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits".

>>                                                    This was due mostly
>> to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
>> which were technically possible only recently.
> 
> I suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too.

I agree.

> 
>> How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
>> I don't hear you bemoaning them!
> 
> Perhaps because the topic hasn't cropped up.  If you want my opinion, I think
> that the blanket bombing of German cities at the end of World War Two was the
> most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in
> centuries.  Bomber Harris was no hero of mine.

Perhaps so.  And maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too.  But that's easy
to say from our "enlightened" viewpoint here in the 90's, right?  Back
then, it was *all-out* war, and Germany and Japan had to be squashed.
After all, a million or more British had already died, hundreds of 
thousands of French, a couple hundread thousand or so Americans, and 
millions of Russians, not to mention a few million Jews, Poles, and 
other people of slavic descent in German concentration camps.  All 
things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were
essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick
end to avoid even greater allied losses.

I, for one, don't regret it.

> 
>>                                 War is never an exact science, but
>> with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
>> of civilian casualties.  Sometimes mistakes are made; targets are
>> misidentified; innocents die.  That's war the way it really is.
> 
> Entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without
> regard for the lives of other people, *that* is the way war really is.

Sure.  And it's the people who suffer because of them.  All the more
reason to depose these "entrenched political rulers operating in their
own selfish interests"!  Or do you mean that this applies to the allies
as well??

> 
> Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor, Bosnia, or even Tibet?  If
> Iraq is so bad, why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before
> we started bombing?

I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war.  It is evident that the West, especially America,
misjudged Hussein drastically.  But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and 
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's
oil supply, he had to be stopped.  Sure the war could have been
prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the West
before Hussein invaded Kuwait, but it is still *Hussein* who is
responsible for his decision to invade.  And once he did so, a
strong response from the West was required.

> 
>> Mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here.
>> You come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although I
>> feel sure that was not your intent.
> 
> What's your intent?  To sound like a Loving Christian?  Well, you aren't
> doing a very good job of it.

Well, it's not very "loving" to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them.  Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion.  So, I'd have to
say yes, stopping Hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest.
> 
>> So the Iraqi war was wrong, eh?  I'm sure that appeasement would have
>> worked better than war, just like it did in WW2, eh?
> 
> Who even mentioned appeasement?  And what makes you think the situation is
> even remotely analogous to World War Two?

I mentioned it.

If we hadn't intervened, allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait, then it would
have been appeasement.  It is precisely the lessons the world learned
in WW2 that motivated the Western alliance to war.  Letting Hitler take
Austria and Czechoslavkia did not stop WW2 from happening, and letting
Hussein keep Kuwait would not have stopped an eventual Gulf War to
protect Saudi Arabia.

> 
>>                                                           I guess we
>> shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
>> German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.
> 
> Yes, do.  Germans are human too, you know.
> 

Sure.  What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a "Thousand Year Reich".  The consequences
stemmed from that.

>> Tyrants like Hussein *have* to be stopped.  His kind don't understand
>> diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun.  My only regret is
>> that Bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into Baghdad, so
>> now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi people's sacrifice (not to
>> mention the 357 Americans who died) was for naught.
> 
> I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and Tibet.
> 
What should I say about them?  Anything in particular?


>> And as for poor, poor Rodney King!  Did you ever stop and think *why*
>> the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
> 
> Yes.  Amongst the things I thought were "Hmm, there's an awful lot of white
> people in that jury."

So?  It was the *policemen* on trial not Rodney King!!  And under American
law they deserved a jury of *their* peers!  If there had been black
officers involved, I'm sure their would have been black jurors too.
This point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow.

> 
>> Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
>> policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
>> But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
>> have not seen.
> 
> When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone who's lying defenceless on
> the ground, it's rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
> been.

So?  It's "hard to imagine"?  So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of "Constructing a Logical
Argument"?  Can we expect another revision soon??  :)  (Just kidding.)

> 
> If there is some wonderful evidence, why is it seemingly being kept secret? 
> Why not tell everyone what it is?  Then everyone could say "Oh, yes, you're
> right, King deserved a good beating", and we could all live happily ever
> after.

I have to admit that I wonder this too.  But *neither* the prosecution
nor the defense is talking.  So one cannot conclude either way due to
the silence of the principals.  

> 
>> Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused,
>> whether they be criminals or cops.  One is not found guilty if there is
>> a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position
>> to assess the evidence and render a verdict.
> 
> Fine, but I'm still finding it hard to imagine what the "reasonable doubt"
> was in this case.  I mean, the cops certainly seem to be beating someone
> who's lying defenceless on the ground.  What's your explanation?  Mass
> hallucination?  Orbital mind-control lasers?  Faked video footage?  Do tell.
> 

OK.  It certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved.
And frankly, the original "not guilty" verdict baffled me too.  But then
I learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict
on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably
would have won, they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated
assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm.  A charge, which
news commentators said, was akin to attempted murder under California
law.  Based on what the prosecution was asking for, it's evident that 
the first jury decided that the officers were "not guilty".  Note, 
not "not guilty" of doing wrong, but "not guilty" of aggravated assault 
with the *intent* of inflicting serious bodily harm.  The seeds of the 
prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a 
verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could.

If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then
I feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one.

> 
> mathew
> [ "Thou shalt not kill... unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing,
>    in which case thou shalt kill, and also kill anyone who gets in the way,
>    as unfortunately it cannot be helped."
>                                    -- Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians ]

Thanks mathew, I like the quote.  Pretty funny actually.  (I'm a 
Monty Python fan, you know.  Kind of seems in that vein.)

Of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory.  But then, you know that already.  

Regards,

Jim B.
Loving Christian  :)


after prepro  From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty  Gulf War
Lines 232

In article 9304191157076f2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew  writes
 jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 9304141210197E4rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
 writes
 Yes  Fortunately we have rightthinking folks like your good self in power
 and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o
 thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait  We won the war
 hurrah hurrah
 
 The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way overexaggerated and 
 exploited for antiwar emotionalism by the liberal news media  The
 facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians 
 in any other war of comparable size this century
 
 Lets analyze this claim a little  How is the size of a war defined  By
 number of participants  Geographical area  Number of countries involved 
 Number of casualties

Size of armies duration numbers of casualties both absolute and as a
percentage of those involved geographical area and numbers of countries
too are all measures of size  In this case Id say the relevant
statistic would be the number of combatants total troops compared to
total casualties from among the total civilian population in the
affected geographical area

 
 Which other comparable wars are we talking about

Vietnam and Korea might make good comparisons

 
 Which liberal news media are we talking about
 

Western news in general but in particular the American mass media
CBS NBC ABC etc  The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of those poor poor Iraqis along with look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits

                                                    This was due mostly
 to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
 which were technically possible only recently
 
 I suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too

I agree

 
 How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
 I dont hear you bemoaning them
 
 Perhaps because the topic hasnt cropped up  If you want my opinion I think
 that the blanket bombing of German cities at the end of World War Two was the
 most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in
 centuries  Bomber Harris was no hero of mine

Perhaps so  And maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too  But thats easy
to say from our enlightened viewpoint here in the 90s right  Back
then it was allout war and Germany and Japan had to be squashed
After all a million or more British had already died hundreds of 
thousands of French a couple hundread thousand or so Americans and 
millions of Russians not to mention a few million Jews Poles and 
other people of slavic descent in German concentration camps  All 
things considered the firebombings and the atomic bomb were
essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick
end to avoid even greater allied losses

I for one dont regret it

 
                                 War is never an exact science but
 with smart bombs its becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
 of civilian casualties  Sometimes mistakes are made targets are
 misidentified innocents die  Thats war the way it really is
 
 Entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without
 regard for the lives of other people that is the way war really is

Sure  And its the people who suffer because of them  All the more
reason to depose these entrenched political rulers operating in their
own selfish interests  Or do you mean that this applies to the allies
as well

 
 Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor Bosnia or even Tibet  If
 Iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before
 we started bombing

I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war  It is evident that the West especially America
misjudged Hussein drastically  But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and 
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the worlds
oil supply he had to be stopped  Sure the war could have been
prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the West
before Hussein invaded Kuwait but it is still Hussein who is
responsible for his decision to invade  And once he did so a
strong response from the West was required

 
 Mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely offbase here
 You come off sounding like a complete peacenik idiot although I
 feel sure that was not your intent
 
 Whats your intent  To sound like a Loving Christian  Well you arent
 doing a very good job of it

Well its not very loving to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them  Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion  So Id have to
say yes stopping Hussein was the most loving thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest
 
 So the Iraqi war was wrong eh  Im sure that appeasement would have
 worked better than war just like it did in WW2 eh
 
 Who even mentioned appeasement  And what makes you think the situation is
 even remotely analogous to World War Two

I mentioned it

If we hadnt intervened allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait then it would
have been appeasement  It is precisely the lessons the world learned
in WW2 that motivated the Western alliance to war  Letting Hitler take
Austria and Czechoslavkia did not stop WW2 from happening and letting
Hussein keep Kuwait would not have stopped an eventual Gulf War to
protect Saudi Arabia

 
                                                           I guess we
 shouldnt have fought WW2 either  just think of all those innocent
 German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg
 
 Yes do  Germans are human too you know
 

Sure  What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a Thousand Year Reich  The consequences
stemmed from that

 Tyrants like Hussein have to be stopped  His kind dont understand
 diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun  My only regret is
 that Bush wimped out and didnt have the military roll into Baghdad so
 now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi peoples sacrifice not to
 mention the 357 Americans who died was for naught
 
 I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and Tibet
 
What should I say about them  Anything in particular


 And as for poor poor Rodney King  Did you ever stop and think why
 the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
 
 Yes  Amongst the things I thought were Hmm theres an awful lot of white
 people in that jury

So  It was the policemen on trial not Rodney King  And under American
law they deserved a jury of their peers  If there had been black
officers involved Im sure their would have been black jurors too
This point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow

 
 Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
 policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
 But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
 have not seen
 
 When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone whos lying defenceless on
 the ground its rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
 been

So  Its hard to imagine  So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of Constructing a Logical
Argument  Can we expect another revision soon    Just kidding

 
 If there is some wonderful evidence why is it seemingly being kept secret 
 Why not tell everyone what it is  Then everyone could say Oh yes youre
 right King deserved a good beating and we could all live happily ever
 after

I have to admit that I wonder this too  But neither the prosecution
nor the defense is talking  So one cannot conclude either way due to
the silence of the principals  

 
 Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused
 whether they be criminals or cops  One is not found guilty if there is
 a reasonable doubt of ones guilt and only the jury is in a position
 to assess the evidence and render a verdict
 
 Fine but Im still finding it hard to imagine what the reasonable doubt
 was in this case  I mean the cops certainly seem to be beating someone
 whos lying defenceless on the ground  Whats your explanation  Mass
 hallucination  Orbital mindcontrol lasers  Faked video footage  Do tell
 

OK  It certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved
And frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled me too  But then
I learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict
on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably
would have won they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated
assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm  A charge which
news commentators said was akin to attempted murder under California
law  Based on what the prosecution was asking for its evident that 
the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty  Note 
not not guilty of doing wrong but not guilty of aggravated assault 
with the intent of inflicting serious bodily harm  The seeds of the 
prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a 
verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could

If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then
I feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one

 
 mathew
 [ Thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing
    in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way
    as unfortunately it cannot be helped
                                     Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians ]

Thanks mathew I like the quote  Pretty funny actually  Im a 
Monty Python fan you know  Kind of seems in that vein

Of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory  But then you know that already  

Regards

Jim B
Loving Christian  


preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 18

In article <93108.020701TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
 
>>In article <93106.155002JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>>YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!!  BE
>>>PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!
>>
>>readers of the group.  How convenient that he doesn't have a real name...
>>Let's start up the letters to the sysadmin, shall we?
>
>His real name is Jeremy Scott Noonan.
>vmoper@psuvm.psu.edu should have at least some authority,
>or at least know who to email.
>
 
POSTMAST@PSUVM.BITNET respectively P_RFOWLES or P_WVERITY (the sys admins)
at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 18

In article 93108020701TAN102psuvmpsuedu
Andrew Newell  writes
 
In article 93106155002JSN104psuvmpsuedu  writes
YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD  BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION

readers of the group  How convenient that he doesnt have a real name
Lets start up the letters to the sysadmin shall we

His real name is Jeremy Scott Noonan
vmoperpsuvmpsuedu should have at least some authority
or at least know who to email

 
POSTMASTPSUVMBITNET respectively P_RFOWLES or P_WVERITY the sys admins
at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 30

In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
>not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
>think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
>
>Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
>larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
>they will simply be able to afford more stuff.

If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste*
on a lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo, 
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military,
scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have 
the money, why not?" approach.

It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
use grad students?

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | 

after prepro  From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 30

In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon  writes
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic

Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff

If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste
on a lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo 
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military
scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have 
the money why not approach

Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students

Gary
 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV              You make it      gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems     we break it      uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way                 Guaranteed       emorykd4ncke4zvgary 
Lawrenceville GA 30244                           

preprocess doc  From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 38

[reply to frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)]
 
>>I'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
>>when put next to the word morality.  I assume its an idiom and cannot
>>be defined by its separate terms.
 
>>Give it a try.
 
>Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
 
From A Dictionary of Philosophy, by Anthony Flew:
 
"Objectivism:  The belief that there are certain moral truths that would
remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired.  For
instance, 'No one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another
simply to take pleasure in his suffering' might be thought of as a
plausible example.  Even in a world of sadists who all rejected it, the
contention remains true, just as '5 + 7 = 12' remains correct even if
there is no one left to count.  The problem for the objectivist is to
determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be
established.  If we accept that such judgements are not reports of what
is but only relate to what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then
they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world.  Nor
can they be analytic, since this would involve lack of action-guiding
content;  'One ought always to do the right thing' is plainly true in
virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to
action (see analytic and synthetic).  At this point the objectivist may
talk of 'self-evident truths', but can he deny the subjectivist's claim
that self-evidence is in the mind of the beholder?  If not, what is left
of the claim that some moral judgements are true?  THe subjectivist may
well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements
with which he would wish to associate himself.  To hold a moral opinion
is, he suggests, not to know something to be true but to have
preferences regarding human activity."
 
David Nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu).  Midelfort Clinic, Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell

after prepro  From nyedacnsvaxuwecedu David Nye
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 38

[reply to frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer]
 
Im one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
when put next to the word morality  I assume its an idiom and cannot
be defined by its separate terms
 
Give it a try
 
Objective morality is morality built from objective values
 
From A Dictionary of Philosophy by Anthony Flew
 
Objectivism  The belief that there are certain moral truths that would
remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired  For
instance No one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another
simply to take pleasure in his suffering might be thought of as a
plausible example  Even in a world of sadists who all rejected it the
contention remains true just as 5  7  12 remains correct even if
there is no one left to count  The problem for the objectivist is to
determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be
established  If we accept that such judgements are not reports of what
is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then
they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world  Nor
can they be analytic since this would involve lack of actionguiding
content  One ought always to do the right thing is plainly true in
virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to
action see analytic and synthetic  At this point the objectivist may
talk of selfevident truths but can he deny the subjectivists claim
that selfevidence is in the mind of the beholder  If not what is left
of the claim that some moral judgements are true  THe subjectivist may
well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements
with which he would wish to associate himself  To hold a moral opinion
is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have
preferences regarding human activity
 
David Nye nyedacnsvaxuwecedu  Midelfort Clinic Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities  Bertrand Russell

preprocess doc  From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 30

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
>
>........
>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC
>
>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
> hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>side of the booster rockets. 

Things could be worse. A lot worse! In the mid-eighties the
teen/adult sci-fi comic 2000AD (Fleetway) produced a short story
featuring the award winning character "Judge Dredd". The story
focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered
multi-coloured lasers/search lights pointed at the moon to paint
images on the moon. Needless to say, this use hacked off a load of lovers,
romantics and werewolfs/crazies. The ad guys got chopped, the service
discontinued. A cautionary tale indeed!

Marvin Batty.
-- 
****************************************************************************  
                  Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"

after prepro  From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 30

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch


WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
 hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets 

Things could be worse A lot worse In the mideighties the
teenadult scifi comic 2000AD Fleetway produced a short story
featuring the award winning character Judge Dredd The story
focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered
multicoloured laserssearch lights pointed at the moon to paint
images on the moon Needless to say this use hacked off a load of lovers
romantics and werewolfscrazies The ad guys got chopped the service
discontinued A cautionary tale indeed

Marvin Batty
 
  
                  Marvin Batty  djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 50
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>>I think that about 70% (or so) people approve of the
>>death penalty, even realizing all of its shortcomings.  Doesn't this make
>>it reasonable?  Or are *you* the sole judge of reasonability?
>Aside from revenge, what merits do you find in capital punishment?

Are we talking about me, or the majority of the people that support it?
Anyway, I think that "revenge" or "fairness" is why most people are in
favor of the punishment.  If a murderer is going to be punished, people
that think that he should "get what he deserves."  Most people wouldn't
think it would be fair for the murderer to live, while his victim died.

>Revenge?  Petty and pathetic.

Perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic, but your views are in the
minority.

>We have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently
>did a segment on capital punishment.  Each and every advocate of
>the use of this portion of our system of "jurisprudence" cited the
>main reason for supporting it:  "That bastard deserved it".  True
>human compassion, forgiveness, and sympathy.

Where are we required to have compassion, forgiveness, and sympathy?  If
someone wrongs me, I will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage
is removed, or a similar situation is forced upon him.  If someone kills
another, then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn.
Is not our entire moral system based on such a concept?

Or, are you stating that human life is sacred, somehow, and that it should
never be violated?  This would sound like some sort of religious view.
 
>>I mean, how reasonable is imprisonment, really, when you think about it?
>>Sure, the person could be released if found innocent, but you still
>>can't undo the imiprisonment that was served.  Perhaps we shouldn't
>>imprision people if we could watch them closely instead.  The cost would
>>probably be similar, especially if we just implanted some sort of
>>electronic device.
>Would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair?  

Once a criminal has committed a murder, his desires are irrelevant.

And, you still have not answered my question.  If you are concerned about
the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent,
then why isn't this same concern shared with imprisonment.  Shouldn't we,
by your logic, administer as minimum as punishment as possible, to avoid
violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re I think that about 70 or so people approve of the
death penalty even realizing all of its shortcomings  Doesnt this make
it reasonable  Or are you the sole judge of reasonability
Aside from revenge what merits do you find in capital punishment

Are we talking about me or the majority of the people that support it
Anyway I think that revenge or fairness is why most people are in
favor of the punishment  If a murderer is going to be punished people
that think that he should get what he deserves  Most people wouldnt
think it would be fair for the murderer to live while his victim died

Revenge  Petty and pathetic

Perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic but your views are in the
minority

We have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently
did a segment on capital punishment  Each and every advocate of
the use of this portion of our system of jurisprudence cited the
main reason for supporting it  That bastard deserved it  True
human compassion forgiveness and sympathy

Where are we required to have compassion forgiveness and sympathy  If
someone wrongs me I will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage
is removed or a similar situation is forced upon him  If someone kills
another then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn
Is not our entire moral system based on such a concept

Or are you stating that human life is sacred somehow and that it should
never be violated  This would sound like some sort of religious view
 
I mean how reasonable is imprisonment really when you think about it
Sure the person could be released if found innocent but you still
cant undo the imiprisonment that was served  Perhaps we shouldnt
imprision people if we could watch them closely instead  The cost would
probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of
electronic device
Would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair  

Once a criminal has committed a murder his desires are irrelevant

And you still have not answered my question  If you are concerned about
the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent
then why isnt this same concern shared with imprisonment  Shouldnt we
by your logic administer as minimum as punishment as possible to avoid
violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person

keith

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Space Station Redesign (30826) Option C
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.214653.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1993Apr25.151108.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
> I like option C of the new space station design.. 
> It needs some work, but it is simple and elegant..
> 
> Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex...
> 
> Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
> it..
> 
> Might be an idea for a Moon/Mars base to.. 
> 
> Where is Captain Eugenia(sp) when you need it (reference to russian heavy
> lifter, I think).
> ==
> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
> 
> 
> 
> 


This is a report, I got the subject messed up..

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Space Station Redesign 30826 Option C
ArticleID aurora1993Apr252146531
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 22
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1993Apr251511081auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 I like option C of the new space station design 
 It needs some work but it is simple and elegant
 
 Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex
 
 Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
 it
 
 Might be an idea for a MoonMars base to 
 
 Where is Captain Eugeniasp when you need it reference to russian heavy
 lifter I think
 
 Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked
 
 
 
 


This is a report I got the subject messed up

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Societal basis for morality
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 18

In article <C5prv8.5nI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
Cobb) wrote:
> we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality?
> Pardon the extremism, but couldn't I murder your "brother" and say that I was 
> exercising my rights as I saw them, was doing what felt good, didn't want
> anyone forcing their morality on me, or I don't follow your "morality" ?

Good statement! Should we apply empirical measurements to define exact
social morals? Should morals be based on social rules? On ancient
religious doctrines? It seems there will *NEVER* be a common and single
denominator for defining morals, and as such defining absolute
and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have 
this incredible talent of creative thinking.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Societal basis for morality
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 18

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb wrote
 we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality
 Pardon the extremism but couldnt I murder your brother and say that I was 
 exercising my rights as I saw them was doing what felt good didnt want
 anyone forcing their morality on me or I dont follow your morality 

Good statement Should we apply empirical measurements to define exact
social morals Should morals be based on social rules On ancient
religious doctrines It seems there will NEVER be a common and single
denominator for defining morals and as such defining absolute
and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have 
this incredible talent of creative thinking

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: jen187@its.CSIRO.AU (Graham Jenkins +61 6 276 6812)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Organization: CSIRO ITS
Lines: 41


In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:


|> 
|> That's your mistake.  It would be better for the children if the mother
|> raised the child.
|> 
|> One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
|> because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more virile men.
|> Compare that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my
|> point.
|> 
|> But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
|> stayed home and raised the child.  That is something false made up by
|> feminists that seek a status above men.  You do not recognize the fact
|> that men and women have natural differences.  Not just physically, but
|> mentally also.
|> 

Bobby, there's a question here that I just HAVE to ask. If all
of your posts aren't some sort of extended, elaborate hoax, why
are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world
that you're feeble minded? You have a talent for saying the most
absurd things. Here's a little sign for you, print it, cut it out
and put it on top of your computer/terminal.

              ENGAGE BRAIN PRIOR TO OPERATING KEYBOARD


(Having said all that, I must admit we all get a laugh from
your stuff.)




-- 

|  Graham Jenkins          |  graham.jenkins@its.csiro.au           | 
|  CSIRO                   |  (Commonwealth Scientific & Industrial | 
|  Canberra,  AUSTRALIA    |  Research Organisation)                |

after prepro  From jen187itsCSIROAU Graham Jenkins 61 6 276 6812
Subject Re islamic authority over women
Organization CSIRO ITS
Lines 41


In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes


 
 Thats your mistake  It would be better for the children if the mother
 raised the child
 
 One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
 because of the love of their mom  It makes for more virile men
 Compare that with how homos are raised  Do a study and you will get my
 point
 
 But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
 stayed home and raised the child  That is something false made up by
 feminists that seek a status above men  You do not recognize the fact
 that men and women have natural differences  Not just physically but
 mentally also
 

Bobby theres a question here that I just HAVE to ask If all
of your posts arent some sort of extended elaborate hoax why
are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world
that youre feeble minded You have a talent for saying the most
absurd things Heres a little sign for you print it cut it out
and put it on top of your computerterminal

              ENGAGE BRAIN PRIOR TO OPERATING KEYBOARD


Having said all that I must admit we all get a laugh from
your stuff




 

  Graham Jenkins            grahamjenkinsitscsiroau            
  CSIRO                     Commonwealth Scientific  Industrial  
  Canberra  AUSTRALIA      Research Organisation                

preprocess doc  From: games@max.u.washington.edu
Subject: SSTO Senatorial (aide) breifing recollections.
Article-I.D.: max.1993Apr6.125512.1
Distribution: world
Lines: 78
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.u.washington.edu

The following are my thoughts on a meeting that I, Hugh Kelso, and Bob Lilly
had with an aide of Sen. Patty Murrays.  We were there to discuss SSTO, and
commercial space.  This is how it went...



After receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of SSTO,
I called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local Senator (D) Patty
Murray, Washington State.  I started asking for an hour, and when I heard
the gasp on the end of the phone, I quickly backed off to 1/2 an hour.
Later in that conversation, I learned that a standard appointment is 15 minutes.

We got the standard bozo treatment.  That is, we were called back by an aide,
who scheduled a meeting with us, in order to determine that we were not
bozos, and to familiarize himself with the material, and to screen it, to 
make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material.

Well, I got allocated 1/2 hour with Sen. Murrays aide, and we ended up talking
to him for 45 minutes, with us ending the meeting, and him still listening.
We covered a lot of ground, and only a little tiny bit was DCX specific.  
Most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer.  There was another
woman there who took copius quantities of notes on EVERY topic that
we brought up.

But, with Murray being new, we wanted to entrench ourselves as non-corporate
aligned (I.E. not speaking for boeing) local citizens interentested in space.
So, we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to
LEO.  Solar power satellites are a big focus here, so we hit them as becoming 
feasible with lower cost access, and we hit the environmental stand on that.
We hit the tourism angle, and I left a copy of the patric Collins Tourism
paper, with side notes being that everyone who goes into space, and sees the
atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist, esp. after SEEING the smog
over L.A.  We hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification (which is 
more pronounced in space, and said that that had POTENTIAL to lead to 
understanding of, and MAYBE a cure for osteoporosis.  We hit the education 
whereby kids get enthused by space, but as they get older and find out that
they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there, they go on to other
fields, with low cost to orbit, the chances they might get there someday 
would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed.

We hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business
angle.  We hit the lower cost of satellite launches, gps navigation, personal
communicators, tellecommunications, new services, etc...  Jobs provided
in those sectors.

Jobs provided building the thing, balance of trade improvement, etc..
We mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs.

We left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order
to make this even easier to do.  And he asked questions on this point.

We ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are
proceeding in this area, and that we want to make sure that the
results from these efforts are not lost (much like condor, or majellan),
and most importantly, we asked that she help fund further efforts along
the lines of lowering the cost to LEO.

In the middle we also gave a little speal about the Lunar Resource Data 
Purchase act, and the guy filed it separately, he was VERY interested in it.
He asked some questions about it, and seemed like he wanted to jump on it,
and contact some of the people involved with it, so something may actually
happen immediatly there.

The last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we
knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town, and that they
could feel free to call us any time with questions, and if we didn't know
the answers, that we would see to it that they questions got to people who
really did know the answers.

Then finally, we asked for an appointment with the senator herself.  He
said that we would get on the list, and he also said that knowing her, this
would be something that she would be very interested in, although they
do have a time problem getting her scheduled, since she is only in the
state 1 week out of 6 these days.

All in all we felt like we did a pretty good job.

			John.

after prepro  From gamesmaxuwashingtonedu
Subject SSTO Senatorial aide breifing recollections
ArticleID max1993Apr61255121
Distribution world
Lines 78
NNTPPostingHost maxuwashingtonedu

The following are my thoughts on a meeting that I Hugh Kelso and Bob Lilly
had with an aide of Sen Patty Murrays  We were there to discuss SSTO and
commercial space  This is how it went



After receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of SSTO
I called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local Senator D Patty
Murray Washington State  I started asking for an hour and when I heard
the gasp on the end of the phone I quickly backed off to 12 an hour
Later in that conversation I learned that a standard appointment is 15 minutes

We got the standard bozo treatment  That is we were called back by an aide
who scheduled a meeting with us in order to determine that we were not
bozos and to familiarize himself with the material and to screen it to 
make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material

Well I got allocated 12 hour with Sen Murrays aide and we ended up talking
to him for 45 minutes with us ending the meeting and him still listening
We covered a lot of ground and only a little tiny bit was DCX specific  
Most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer  There was another
woman there who took copius quantities of notes on EVERY topic that
we brought up

But with Murray being new we wanted to entrench ourselves as noncorporate
aligned IE not speaking for boeing local citizens interentested in space
So we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to
LEO  Solar power satellites are a big focus here so we hit them as becoming 
feasible with lower cost access and we hit the environmental stand on that
We hit the tourism angle and I left a copy of the patric Collins Tourism
paper with side notes being that everyone who goes into space and sees the
atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist esp after SEEING the smog
over LA  We hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification which is 
more pronounced in space and said that that had POTENTIAL to lead to 
understanding of and MAYBE a cure for osteoporosis  We hit the education 
whereby kids get enthused by space but as they get older and find out that
they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there they go on to other
fields with low cost to orbit the chances they might get there someday 
would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed

We hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business
angle  We hit the lower cost of satellite launches gps navigation personal
communicators tellecommunications new services etc  Jobs provided
in those sectors

Jobs provided building the thing balance of trade improvement etc
We mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs

We left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order
to make this even easier to do  And he asked questions on this point

We ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are
proceeding in this area and that we want to make sure that the
results from these efforts are not lost much like condor or majellan
and most importantly we asked that she help fund further efforts along
the lines of lowering the cost to LEO

In the middle we also gave a little speal about the Lunar Resource Data 
Purchase act and the guy filed it separately he was VERY interested in it
He asked some questions about it and seemed like he wanted to jump on it
and contact some of the people involved with it so something may actually
happen immediatly there

The last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we
knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town and that they
could feel free to call us any time with questions and if we didnt know
the answers that we would see to it that they questions got to people who
really did know the answers

Then finally we asked for an appointment with the senator herself  He
said that we would get on the list and he also said that knowing her this
would be something that she would be very interested in although they
do have a time problem getting her scheduled since she is only in the
state 1 week out of 6 these days

All in all we felt like we did a pretty good job

			John

preprocess doc  From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
In-Reply-To: todd@phad.la.locus.com's message of Wed, 21 Apr 93 16:28:00 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1993Apr21.162800.168967@locus.com>
Lines: 33

In article <1993Apr21.162800.168967@locus.com> todd@phad.la.locus.com (Todd Johnson) writes:

   As for advertising -- sure, why not?  A NASA friend and I spent one
   drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
   to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
   on the face of the Moon.  Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.

Hmmm. It actually isn't all that much, is it? Like about 2 million
km^2 (if you think that sounds like a lot, it's only a few tens of m^2
per burger that said organization sold last year). You'd be best off
with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an
unmanned craft in lunar orbit (or, rather, a large set of such craft).
If you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new
moon (since the moon itself is quite dark), and _bright_ at full moon.
You might have to abandon the colour, though.

Buy a cheap launch system, design reusable moon -> lunar orbit
unmanned spraying craft, build 50 said craft, establish a lunar base
to extract TiO2 (say: for colour you'd be better off with a sulphur
compound, I suppose) and some sort of propellant, and Bob's your
uncle.  I'll do it for, say, 20 billion dollars (plus changes of
identity for me and all my loved ones). Delivery date 2010.

Can we get the fast-food chain bidding against the fizzy-drink
vendors? Who else might be interested?

Would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not
much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km
inflatable billboards in LEO (or in GEO, visible 24 hours from your
key growth market). I'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of
identity).

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu

after prepro  From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
InReplyTo toddphadlalocuscoms message of Wed 21 Apr 93 162800 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
	1993Apr21162800168967locuscom
Lines 33

In article 1993Apr21162800168967locuscom toddphadlalocuscom Todd Johnson writes

   As for advertising  sure why not  A NASA friend and I spent one
   drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar wed need
   to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
   on the face of the Moon  Fortunately we sobered up in the morning

Hmmm It actually isnt all that much is it Like about 2 million
km^2 if you think that sounds like a lot its only a few tens of m^2
per burger that said organization sold last year Youd be best off
with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an
unmanned craft in lunar orbit or rather a large set of such craft
If you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new
moon since the moon itself is quite dark and _bright_ at full moon
You might have to abandon the colour though

Buy a cheap launch system design reusable moon  lunar orbit
unmanned spraying craft build 50 said craft establish a lunar base
to extract TiO2 say for colour youd be better off with a sulphur
compound I suppose and some sort of propellant and Bobs your
uncle  Ill do it for say 20 billion dollars plus changes of
identity for me and all my loved ones Delivery date 2010

Can we get the fastfood chain bidding against the fizzydrink
vendors Who else might be interested

Would they buy it given that its a _lot_ more expensive and not
much more impressive than putting a large set of severalkm
inflatable billboards in LEO or in GEO visible 24 hours from your
key growth market Ill do _that_ for only 5bn and the changes of
identity

Nick Haines nickhcmuedu

preprocess doc  From: frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: d012s658.ap.mchp.sni.de

In article <1993Apr15.125245.12872@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka) writes:
|In <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp writes:
|> In article <30114@ursa.bear.com> halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
|
|> #I'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means 
|> #when put next to the word morality.  I assume its an idiom and cannot
|> #be defined by its separate terms.
|> #
|> #Give it a try.
|> 
|> Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
|
|      "And these objective values are ... ?"
|Please be specific, and more importantly, motivate.

I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.  I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
almost all would want to complain.  Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
a rainy day.  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist.

-- 
Frank O'Dwyer                                  'I'm not hatching That'
odwyer@sse.ie                                  from "Hens",  by Evelyn Conlon

after prepro  From frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization SiemensNixdorf AG
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost d012s658apmchpsnide

In article 1993Apr1512524512872abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka writes
In 1qie61fkthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp writes
 In article 30114ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes

 Im one of those people who does not know what the word objective means 
 when put next to the word morality  I assume its an idiom and cannot
 be defined by its separate terms
 
 Give it a try
 
 Objective morality is morality built from objective values

      And these objective values are  
Please be specific and more importantly motivate

Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable  I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain  Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist

 
Frank ODwyer                                  Im not hatching That
odwyersseie                                  from Hens  by Evelyn Conlon

preprocess doc  From: wiml@stein2.u.washington.edu (William Lewis)
Subject: Re: Abyss--breathing fluids
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein2.u.washington.edu

loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss) writes:
>Besides the mechanical problems of moving so dense a medium in oan out
>of the lungs (diaphragm fatigue, etc.), is there likely to be a problem
>with the mixture?  I mean, since the lungs never expel all the air in
>them, the inhaled air has to mix pretty quickly with the residual air in
>the lungs to provide a useful partial pressure of oxygen, right?  Would
>this mixing be substantially faster/slower at the pressures we're
>talking about?

  There was an interesting article in Scientific American some time ago
about breathing liquid. (It was a few months before _The Abyss_ came out.)
As far as I can remember, they mentioned three things that were difficult
to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid:
  - low viscosity --- if it's too difficult to force the fluid in & out 
    of the lungs, you can't extract enough oxygen to power your own
    breathing effort (let alone anything else)

  - diffusion rate --- obviously, not all the air in your lungs is
    expelled when you breathe out; and the part that isn't expelled
    is the part that's nearest the walls of the alveoli. (alveolus?)
    So the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done
    by diffusion of the gas through the fluid. Apparently oxygen
    tends to diffuse more readily than CO2, so even if you can get enough
    oxygen in, you might not be able to get enough CO2 out.

  - oxygen/CO2 capacity --- you have to be able to dissolve enough
    gas per unit volume. 

  Oh, and of course, your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs
or interfere with their healing or anything like that... 

--
Wim Lewis, wiml@u.washington.edu

after prepro  From wimlstein2uwashingtonedu William Lewis
Subject Re Abyssbreathing fluids
Organization University of Washington
Lines 33
NNTPPostingHost stein2uwashingtonedu

lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss writes
Besides the mechanical problems of moving so dense a medium in oan out
of the lungs diaphragm fatigue etc is there likely to be a problem
with the mixture  I mean since the lungs never expel all the air in
them the inhaled air has to mix pretty quickly with the residual air in
the lungs to provide a useful partial pressure of oxygen right  Would
this mixing be substantially fasterslower at the pressures were
talking about

  There was an interesting article in Scientific American some time ago
about breathing liquid It was a few months before _The Abyss_ came out
As far as I can remember they mentioned three things that were difficult
to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid
   low viscosity  if its too difficult to force the fluid in  out 
    of the lungs you cant extract enough oxygen to power your own
    breathing effort let alone anything else

   diffusion rate  obviously not all the air in your lungs is
    expelled when you breathe out and the part that isnt expelled
    is the part thats nearest the walls of the alveoli alveolus
    So the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done
    by diffusion of the gas through the fluid Apparently oxygen
    tends to diffuse more readily than CO2 so even if you can get enough
    oxygen in you might not be able to get enough CO2 out

   oxygenCO2 capacity  you have to be able to dissolve enough
    gas per unit volume 

  Oh and of course your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs
or interfere with their healing or anything like that 


Wim Lewis wimluwashingtonedu

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Moraltiy? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 63
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql8ekINN635@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >>>>What if I act morally for no particular reason?  Then am I moral?  What
|> >>>>if morality is instinctive, as in most animals?
|> >>>
|> >>>Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to 
|> >>>assume your conclusion.
|> >>
|> >>Which conclusion?
|> >
|> >You conclusion - correct me if I err - that the behaviour which is
|> >instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system.
|> 
|> See, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here.  Earlier, you said
|> that it must be a conscious act.  By your definition, no instinctive
|> behavior pattern could be an act of morality.  You are trying to apply
|> human terms to non-humans.

Pardon me?   *I* am trying to apply human terms to non-humans?

I think there must be some confusion here.   I'm the guy who is
saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does *not*
have any moral sugnificance.   How does refusing to apply human
terms to animals get turned into applying human terms?

|> I think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative, 
|> this does not prevent his behavior from being moral.

I'm sure you do think this, if you say so.   How about trying to
convince me?

|> 
|> >>You don't think that morality is a behavior pattern?  What is human
|> >>morality?  A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
|> >>pattern.  That is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral.
|> >
|> >You keep getting this backwards.  *You* are trying to show that
|> >the behaviour pattern is a morality.  Whether morality is a behavior 
|> >pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for
|> >example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would
|> >not call a morality.
|> 
|> I try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown.

I've offered, four times, I think, to accept your definition if
you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion
of the planets.

|> 
|> And, morality can be thought of a large class of princples.  It could be
|> defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish.  However,
|> it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of
|> phyics.  It is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least
|> some free will.

Ah, the law of "silly" and "less silly".   what Mr Livesey finds 
intuitive is "silly" but what Mr Schneider finds intuitive is "less 
silly".

Now that's a devastating argument, isn't it.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Moraltiy was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 What if I act morally for no particular reason  Then am I moral  What
 if morality is instinctive as in most animals
 
 Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to 
 assume your conclusion
 
 Which conclusion
 
 You conclusion  correct me if I err  that the behaviour which is
 instinctive in animals is a natural moral system
 
 See we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here  Earlier you said
 that it must be a conscious act  By your definition no instinctive
 behavior pattern could be an act of morality  You are trying to apply
 human terms to nonhumans

Pardon me   I am trying to apply human terms to nonhumans

I think there must be some confusion here   Im the guy who is
saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does not
have any moral sugnificance   How does refusing to apply human
terms to animals get turned into applying human terms

 I think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative 
 this does not prevent his behavior from being moral

Im sure you do think this if you say so   How about trying to
convince me

 
 You dont think that morality is a behavior pattern  What is human
 morality  A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
 pattern  That is we enforce a certain behavior as moral
 
 You keep getting this backwards  You are trying to show that
 the behaviour pattern is a morality  Whether morality is a behavior 
 pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for
 example the motions of the planets that most all people would
 not call a morality
 
 I try to show it but by your definition it cant be shown

Ive offered four times I think to accept your definition if
you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion
of the planets

 
 And morality can be thought of a large class of princples  It could be
 defined in terms of many thingsthe laws of physics if you wish  However
 it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of
 phyics  It is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least
 some free will

Ah the law of silly and less silly   what Mr Livesey finds 
intuitive is silly but what Mr Schneider finds intuitive is less 
silly

Now thats a devastating argument isnt it

jon

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1qju0bINN10l@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON) writes:
> There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago (I do not remember its 
> name) about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the 
> Sun so it could never be visible from Earth. 

This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K.  It was produced by the great
team of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson (whose science was usually a bit
better than this).  It may have been their first production using live
actors-- they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows,
such as *Supercar*, *Stingray*, and *Thunderbirds*.  Later, they went
on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.

The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
look at.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | There grow roses and other posies
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | Fertilized by Clementine.
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  |

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Doppelganger was Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1qju0bINN10lravelarcnasagov COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON writes
 There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago I do not remember its 
 name about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the 
 Sun so it could never be visible from Earth 

This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
States and as Doppelganger in the UK  It was produced by the great
team of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson whose science was usually a bit
better than this  It may have been their first production using live
actors they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows
such as Supercar Stingray and Thunderbirds  Later they went
on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999

The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
look at

Bill Higgins Beam Jockey               In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory   Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet           HIGGINSFNALBITNET   There grow roses and other posies
Internet       HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   Fertilized by Clementine
SPANHepnet           43011HIGGINS  

preprocess doc   sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
 <1p6rgcINNhfb@gap.caltech.edu> <1p88fi$4vv@fido.asd.sgi.com> 
 <1p9bseINNi6o@gap.caltech.edu> <1pamva$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pcq4pINNqp1@gap.caltech.edu> <30071@ursa.bear.com>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Lines: 22

halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:

>>I think an objective morality does exist, but that most flavors of morality
>>are only approximations to it.  Once again, a natural or objective morality
>>is fairly easily defined, as long as you have a goal in mind--that is, what
>>is the purpose of this morality.
>Maybe I'm not quite getting what you mean by this, but I think objective 
>morality is an oxymoron.  By definition, it seems, any _goal_ oriented 
>issue like this is subjective by nature.  I don't get how you're using
>the word objective.

But, the goal need not be a subjective one.  For instance, the goal of
natural morality is the propogation of a species, perhaps.  It wasn't
really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions
to this were necessary.  Intelligent animals have different needs than
the others, and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more
complicated than "the law of the jungle."  I don't think that
self-actualization is so subjective as you might think.  And, by
objectivity, I am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be
carried out completely.

keith

after prepro   sgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re  1p88fi4vvfidoasdsgicom 
 1p9bseINNi6ogapcaltechedu 1pamvab6jfidoasdsgicom 1pcq4pINNqp1gapcaltechedu 30071ursabearcom
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Lines 22

halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes

I think an objective morality does exist but that most flavors of morality
are only approximations to it  Once again a natural or objective morality
is fairly easily defined as long as you have a goal in mindthat is what
is the purpose of this morality
Maybe Im not quite getting what you mean by this but I think objective 
morality is an oxymoron  By definition it seems any _goal_ oriented 
issue like this is subjective by nature  I dont get how youre using
the word objective

But the goal need not be a subjective one  For instance the goal of
natural morality is the propogation of a species perhaps  It wasnt
really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions
to this were necessary  Intelligent animals have different needs than
the others and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more
complicated than the law of the jungle  I dont think that
selfactualization is so subjective as you might think  And by
objectivity I am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be
carried out completely

keith

preprocess doc  From: guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer )
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Lines: 53

In article <16BA7103C3.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.091258.11830@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
> 
>>(2) Do women have souls in Islam?
>>
>>People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
>>souls.  I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
>>Muslims of any era.  I have heard of some Christians of some eras
>>holding this viewpoint, but not Muslims.  Are you sure you might not be
>>confusing Christian history with Islamic history?
>>
> 
>Yes, it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
>Caliphate.
> 

I am not aware of any "Turkish Caliphate" viewpoint on this. Can you
reference?

However, I found a quote due to Imam Ali, whom the Shias follow:

"Men, never obey your women in any way whatsoever. Never let them give their
advice on any matter whatsoever, even those of everyday life. Indeed, allow
them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away one's
wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth.
  We see them without religion, when, alone, they are left to their own
devices; they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal
desires are at stake. It is easy to enjoy them, but they cause great
anxiety. The most virtious among them are libertines. But the most
corrupt are whores. Only those of them whom age has deprived of any
charm are untainted by vice. They have three qualities particular to
miscreants; they complain of being oppressed, whereas it is they
who oppress; they make oaths, whereas they are lying; they pretend
to refuse men's solicitations, whereas they desire them most ardently.
Let us beg the help of God to emerge victorious from their evil deeds.
And preserve us in any case from their good ones."

(Quote from Mas'ud al-Qanawi, ref. A. Bouhdiba, Sexuality in Islam, 
p. 118).

I wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic (TM)
viewpoint though.  For all we know, the prophet's cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazret-i Ali may have said this after a frustrating 
night with a woman.

Selim Guncer

--
Selim E. Guncer               | Jaca negra, luna grande,
CSSER-ASU                     | y aceitunas en mi alforja.
(602)-965-4096                | Aunque sepa los caminos
guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu     | yo nunca llegare a Cordoba.. (FGL)

after prepro  From guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer 
Subject Re Islam  Dress Code for women
Organization Arizona State University Tempe AZ
Lines 53

In article 16BA7103C3I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1993Apr509125811830monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 
2 Do women have souls in Islam

People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
souls  I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
Muslims of any era  I have heard of some Christians of some eras
holding this viewpoint but not Muslims  Are you sure you might not be
confusing Christian history with Islamic history

 
Yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
Caliphate
 

I am not aware of any Turkish Caliphate viewpoint on this Can you
reference

However I found a quote due to Imam Ali whom the Shias follow

Men never obey your women in any way whatsoever Never let them give their
advice on any matter whatsoever even those of everyday life Indeed allow
them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away ones
wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth
  We see them without religion when alone they are left to their own
devices they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal
desires are at stake It is easy to enjoy them but they cause great
anxiety The most virtious among them are libertines But the most
corrupt are whores Only those of them whom age has deprived of any
charm are untainted by vice They have three qualities particular to
miscreants they complain of being oppressed whereas it is they
who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend
to refuse mens solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently
Let us beg the help of God to emerge victorious from their evil deeds
And preserve us in any case from their good ones

Quote from Masud alQanawi ref A Bouhdiba Sexuality in Islam 
p 118

I wouldnt consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic TM
viewpoint though  For all we know the prophets cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazreti Ali may have said this after a frustrating 
night with a woman

Selim Guncer


Selim E Guncer                Jaca negra luna grande
CSSERASU                      y aceitunas en mi alforja
6029654096                 Aunque sepa los caminos
guncerenuxhaeasasuedu      yo nunca llegare a Cordoba FGL

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 19

In article <1993Apr17.122329.21438@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
 
>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH:  ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE."  (Holy Quran 21:33)
>
>>Hmm. This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre,
>>with the planets orbitting round it. So Copernicus and Gallileo were
>>wrong after all!
>
>You haven't read very carefully -- if you look again, you will see that
>it doesn't say anything about what is circling what.
>
 
Anyway, they are not moving in circles.  Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense. Wishy-
washy statements are not scientific.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 19

In article 1993Apr1712232921438monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH  ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE  Holy Quran 2133

Hmm This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre
with the planets orbitting round it So Copernicus and Gallileo were
wrong after all

You havent read very carefully  if you look again you will see that
it doesnt say anything about what is circling what

 
Anyway they are not moving in circles  Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense Wishy
washy statements are not scientific
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Nostalgia
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 1049


  The recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the
  incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb
  through my archives and pull out some of "The Best of Alt.Atheism"
  for your reading pleasure.  I'll post a couple of these a day
  unless group concensus demands that I stop, or I run out of good
  material.

  I haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving
  attributions.  I think the following comes from John A. Johnson,
  but someone correct me if I'm wrong.  This is probably the longest
  of my entire collection.

________________________________________________________


                                  So that the
                                  Prophecy be
                                   Fulfilled

                                     * * *

       In considering the Christian religion, and judging it
according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy.  The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth.  As you will see, Matthew's main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages, often not even
about the promised Messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament.  We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts.  Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed, we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated.  But, for purposes of analysis, we
will take particular claims at face value.

Immanuel:

       We begin, of course, at the beginning.

       (Mt 1.21-22):  "[Mary] will bear a son, and you,
       Joseph, will name him 'Jesus' (which means G'd is
       salvation), for he will save his people from their
       sins."  All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
       spoken by a prophet:

       [Isaiah 7.1-16]:  In the days of Ahaz (c. 750 BCE),
       king of Judah, Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
       war on Jerusalem (capitol of Judah), but could not
       quite conquer it.  When the house of David (i.e. Ahaz
       and his court in Judah) were told of this, ...its
       heart and the heart of its people shook...   And, the
       lord G'd said to Isaiah, "go to meet with Ahaz..." 
       ...And the lord spoke to Ahaz (through prophet Isaiah,
       naturally) saying, "Ask a sign of G'd your lord.  It
       can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven."  But,
       Ahaz said, "I won't ask; I will not put the lord to a
       test."  Then (Isaiah) said, "Hear then, O house of
       David.  Is it not enough for you to weary men, that
       you must weary my god too?  Therefore, the lord
       himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a young woman
       is with child and will bear a son, and name him
       "Immanuel," which means, "G'd is with us."   He will
       eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
       and choose good.  For, before the child knows how to
       refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings
       you dread will have been deserted...

Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics. 
Further, he the Hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as
specifically, "virgin."  But, this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah.  It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later.  It is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother.  In
short, it not about Jesus.  Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary.  It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit Mary.  Mary,
virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child.  Of course,
the fit is shady and has problems.  Jesus, while thought of by
later Christians to be G'd walking among men, was never called by
the name, Immanuel.  If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second
class prophecy.   Not too convincing.

Egypt:

       After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses.  This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.

       [Mt 2.15]  ...and remained there until the death of
       Herod.  This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
       "Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."


What the lord really said was this.

       [Hosea 11.1]  When Israel was a child, I loved him. 
       And, out of Egypt I called my son.  The more I called
       them (my people), the more they went from me; they
       kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
       incense to idols.

Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle.  But, it
was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
return.  This is history.  Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here.  And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd.   Again, this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.

Rachel Weeps:

        While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt, Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children.  Matthew then writes,

       [Mt 2.17-18]   By this, that which was spoken by the
       prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

       "A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud
       lamentation-- Rachel weeping for her children;
       she refused to be consoled, because they were
       no more."   

The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 31.15, referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon (of Assyria) in 722
BCE.  Rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel, Ephraim,
and Manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no
more."  It is metaphorical, of course, since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile.
       It is interesting to note that it was Leah, not Rachel, who
was the ancestor of the Judeans (the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were).  If anyone should do weeping for her "children,"
it is Leah.  The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city,
"on the way to Ephrath, (Bethlehem)."
       As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred.  One never knows, but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. 
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded.  This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
the message of the church's gospel.
       Because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of Jesus.
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote.   The "children" the prophet
speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the Assyrian Empire.  G'd
comforts the weeping Rachel, saying that the children will be
returned-- he will gather them back together.  Of course, this
would not suit Matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are
dead for good.  Again, the "prophecy" Matthew sets up is not even
that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too
convincing.

The Nazarene:

       We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy.  After leaving Egypt, Joseph & wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth, 

       [Mt 2.23]  ...that what was spoken of by the prophets
       might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophet(s) this time.  Second, we have to ask who "He" is. 
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene.  Worse,
there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a Nazarene.  Still
worse, there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all.  In the book of Judges, an angel tells Samson's mother that
she will,

       [Judges 13.5]  "...conceive and bear a son.  No razor
       shall tough his head, for he will be a Nazirite to his
       god from the day of his birth.  He will deliver Israel
       from the hands of the Philistines."

This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus, or the messiah of G'd. 
But, it is the best that can be found.  Obviously, Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is
simple making them up now.

Bearing our
Diseases:

       Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities.

       [Mt 8.17]   This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
       prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our
       diseases."

As expected, the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context,
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme.  We have,

       [Is 53.4]  Surely he, [the suffering servant], has
       borne our sickness, and carried our pains.

From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah, we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel, Jehovah's chosen servant and people.  He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it.  This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, Israel as the
instrument of the nations' salvation by G'd.
      The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline.  They do not speak of a "servant" going around and
healing people.  Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual Jews).  Jesus,
as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself.  The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but
rather something that had already happened.  While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear
the illnesses he healed.  So, while someone might want to say
that, figuratively, Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement, he has to admit that Matthew's parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect.


Silent Messiah:

      Upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse
the attention of the local rulers.

       [Mt 12.15-21]  This was to fulfill what was spoken by
       the prophet Isaiah.   

       "Behold my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved,
       with whom my soul is pleased.  I will put my spirit on
       him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles.  He
       will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear
       his voice in the streets.  He will not break a bruised
       reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
       justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his
       name."

The Isaiah passage quoted reads,

       [Is 42.1-4]  Behold my servant whom I uphold, my
       chosen, in whom my soul delights.  I have put my
       spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the
       nations.  We will not cry or lift up his voice, or
       make it heard in the street.  He will not break a
       bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick.  He will
       faithfully bring forth justice.  He will not fail
       (burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has
       established justice in the earth.  And the coastlands
       await his law.

You see, Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage,
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus.  Christians could
never think of Jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind
burn dimly.  But, the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done.  When the gentiles come to embrace
G'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will
be the children of G'd.  Also, the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the
Christologic, "the Gentiles will hope in his name."   While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah, the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name."  If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus, one has only
to read the whole chapter, Isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and
plundered..."   So, we see that when Matthew's attempt at
"prophecy" is examined, it crumbles.

Three Days and
Three Nights:

      Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself.  He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection.

       [Mt 12.40]   For as Jonah was in the belly of the
       whale for three days and three nights, so will the Son
       of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
       three nights.

Before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days.  As far as day names went, each was
24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm.  What was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm.  Thus, according to our time
scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening, and lasted until
6pm saturday evening.  This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays, instead of Sundays. 
(It seems like a real miracle that Christians didn't forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!)  Thus,
when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of.  Thus,
Jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights.

      As the good book tells us, Jesus was crucified on the "ninth
hour," which is 3pm, Friday afternoon.  He then was put into the
grave sometime after that.  Then, Jesus left the grave, "rose,"
before dawn of what we call Sunday (The dawn after the sabbath was
over).  What this means is that Jesus was, using our time for
clarity, in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning.  We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday, since the bible is not specific here.  What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two
nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day.  Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction.  There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights --even using modern time measurements.   We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthew's little
mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his
god's mouth.   And no matter who made the prediction, it is more
than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing.

Hearing &
Understanding:

     Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if
you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus.  He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants.  If the people cannot understand
them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not
accept the "plain" message any better.  Matthew says,

       [Mt 13.14-16]  With them [the audience] indeed in
       fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says, 

       "You will indeed hear but never understand; and you
       will indeed see, but never perceive.  Because this
       people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of
       hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they
       would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and
       understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal
       them."

The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his
call to the ministry.  This is in 740 BCE, when Israel is
flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of Assyria. 
Isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from G'd,
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah.

       [Is 6.9-13]  And G'd said, "Go, and say to this
       people, `Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and
       see, but do not perceive.'   Make the heart of this
       people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their
       eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear
       with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and
       turn and be healed."  Then Isaiah said, "How long,
       lord?"  And he said, "Until the cities lie waste
       without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the
       land is utterly desolate, and the G'ds take men far
       away, and forsaken places are many in the land.  And
       though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned
       again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
       stands when the tree is felled." The holy seed is its
       stump.

Here we see that it is really G'd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomon's (and David's) seed/lineage.  If you read
the rest of Isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of G'd to use Israel as a servant, a light to the nations.  (Look
at Isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3)
     We see that Matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion
of Isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs.  More than that,
he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't
understand Jesus's stories.  And, as we see, Isaiah's verses are
not prophecies, but rather commands from G'd to him, in the
present.   Once again, Matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face. 

     Matthew tries again to make Jesus's parables look like they
have the prophetic approval.

       [Mt 13.35]  ...he said nothing to them without a
       parable.  This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
       prophet, "I will open my mouth to them in parables.  I
       will utter that which has been hidden since the
       foundation of the world."

Matthew really botches up here.  He attempts to quote not from a
prophet, but from the Psalms.

       [Ps 78.2-4]  I will open my mouth in parable.  I will
       utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have
       heard and known, things that our fathers have told us. 
       We will not hide them from their children, but tell to
       the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
       lord...

As was pointed out, the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet.  You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthew's gospel even inserted Isaiah's name as this prophet. 
Apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up.
     Perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once
again, Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures.  As Jesus
has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them.  The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden. 
Further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told
us."  Jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the
world."  Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion. 
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms.  No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them!   And still once again,
Matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face.  But,
Christians rarely look at this.  Matthew's prophecies aren't the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad.


Excuses of
Little Faith:

       In Mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons, except in one case.  Not knowing what
epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons.  It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to "dispossess" the epileptic.  But, Jesus, perhaps no more
enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying
they didn't have enough faith.   This seems strange.  Why was this
demon special?  It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not.  Apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains.  Of course, you will find no one, these days that can
move real mountains.  No one parts seas.  The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place.  Major miracles are making some old
woman's arthritis feel better on Sunday morning T.V.

       And the gods, including Jesus, are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts.  They are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in
heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone.  Yet, life goes on.  

     Tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time
or a distant place.  Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days, Jehovah too.  But, now they are silent.  All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see
God anymore.

       We're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're
       sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our
       own demands on G'd's appearance; if we had the right
       faith, if we  were willing to meet G'd on his terms...

     Yet, even the most pious of men have not seen G'd.  You, dear
reader, have not seen G'd.  Not literally, you know that to be
true. (I know that's presumptuous and bold.  But, searching your
heart, you know what I mean.)  All that we've seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing G'd.  They say
our little faith does not merit us to see G'd.  Sometimes, they
say, "See the love in these people you worship with... see the
lives of people change... that is seeing G'd."   Thus people get
lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning G'd into the everyday
sights.   But, that is not seeing G'd as I am speaking of... it is
not seeing G'd the way people used to see.  
      What we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of
human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the
forgiveness practised by Christian & Atheist alike, beauty created
by the mind of man.  These are the things that are done; these are
what we see.  But, it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith.

Jesus Rides on
an Ass:

       Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king, Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem.  

       [Mt 21.5]  This took place to fulfil what was spoken
       by the prophet, saying,

       Tell the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is
       coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a
       ass-colt."

Of course, the passage quoted from Zechariah 9.9 reads a little
differently.

       Lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and
       victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass-
       colt... he will command peace to the nations.

There isn't all that much difference here, except that Zechariah
only involves one animal  --an ass-colt--  while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently.  Thus, he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass.  From Matthew's version, we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys.  This could inevitably lead to a theological,
proctological dilemma!   We find that in the account written
earlier by St. Mark, only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus.  This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly, and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has
bungled.  Now, excluding many respectable Christians I have met, I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses,
the situation is often reversed nowadays...

       Then, entering the Jerusalem temple, the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah.  But,
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done,

       [Mt 21.16]  Haven't you read?  `Out of the mouth of
       babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.'

It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things AND
since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to
fit Matthew's track record quite well.  We might ask Jesus or
Matthew, "Haven't you read?" for the source reads,

       [Psalms 8.1-2]  O YaHWeH our lord, how majestic is
       your name in the whole world!   You, whose glory is
       chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you
       have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
       enemy and the avenger.

The passages hardly need comment.  There is no "perfect praise"
spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to G'd,
not his messiah king, and not Jesus.  As mentioned, it seems to be
just one more case of Matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture.

YHVH said to 
my lord...:

      Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiah-king is to be descended.  The Jews agree-- it is king
David.  But, then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110,

       "The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until
       I put your enemies under your feet."

Taken at face value, Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent.  One assumes he is in opposition to their answer.  Of
course, the Christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to
make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiah-king.  It's tempting to believe this, if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation. 
But, there are problems.
       In Jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah.  And, it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior.  We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king,
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under David's
rule.  Of course, the Jews listening had no good answer, and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the
Christians worship.  The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm, an error that apparently several Jews of Jesus's time had
also made.  One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews, often as a result of different expectations of the
messiah-king.  Jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like
his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and
who interpreted Psalms 110, among others, as being messianic.
What is the problem, then?  Psalm 110 literally reads,

       YHVH's utterance to my lord:
	"Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your
       footstool."

       YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion.  Rule
       in the midst of your foes!  Your people will offer
       themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
       holy mountains.  

       "You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
       forever."

The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord.  But, in the Hebrew, the
word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists.  Adoni simply means
"lord," a generic term as we would use it.  It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd.  It is merely an
address of respect.  
      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king.  That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain.  The title of the
psalm translates to either "a psalm of David," or "a psalm about
David."  It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet, about David's covenant and endorsement from G'd.  If the
psalm had been written by David, it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah.  The idea of a perfect king, descended
from David, was not present in David's age.  We have extensive
tales of David's doings and sayings-- none of which include any
praises of a messiah.
     Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead, in times of the exile when G'd had put his show of
favour for David's kingdom on hold.  
     The description in the psalm fit David very well.  David was
promised by G'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies,
successful judgement among the nations he conquered.  He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king,
enabled to bless the people.   It all fits.
      We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone,
though.  Here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable.  Still, this
event is common to the other gospels too.  So, we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time.  It is interesting to note,
though, how Matthew dresses up the event.  The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd. 
Matthew has the Pharisees, who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity, be the target of Jesus's question.  As we
might expect, Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees.  Such power is the pen.

Moses & Jesus,
Had it Together
All Along...:

       We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudo-prophecy in John's gospel.  The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesus's career as told by even Matthew. 
But, for the moment, we will just look at one verse.  The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by G'd.  When constructing the history of Abraham, Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people.  While this
was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king David, the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise.  But, to do so, they expanded on the
promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom.

       [John 8.56] (J.C. speaking) Your father, Abraham,
       rejoiced to see My day.  He say it and was glad.

It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham, but,
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah, or anything Christian. 
I have tried, and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to John's little prophecy.  It is par for the
course to see St. John making up Old Testament backings, just like
his forerunner Matthew.  Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they
still cling to it.

The Potter's
Field:

      We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers, Judas Iscariot.   Matthew writes,

       [Mt 27.5-10]  And throwing down the pieces of silver
       in the temple, [Judas] departed... But, the chief
       priests, taking the silver, said, "It isn't lawful for
       us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood
       money."  So they... bought a potter's field with it to
       bury strangers in... Then was fulfilled what was
       spoken by the prophet Jeremiah,

       "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price
       of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
       sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's
       field, as the lord directed me."

This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture.  First, Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet.  It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of.

       [Zech. 11.12-13]  ...And they weighed out my wages,
       thirty shekels of silver.  Then YHVH said to me, "Cast
       them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which I
       was paid off by them.  So I took the thirty shekels of
       silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
       YHVH.

First of all, the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah, or of G'd.  The deal with a shepherd, most likely
a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before G'd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another.  The word, "treasury," had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made
Matthew's quote fit better.  But, this is a blatant error.  The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariah's context, whereas "potter's
field" is totally unrelated.  Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation.  However, given
Matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty.
      Of course, Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text.  The thirty pieces of silver match Judas's situation, and if
as most Christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity, Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around.  However, the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests.  The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury.  The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite!  Of course, to the average Thursday-Night Bible student,
the "prophecy" as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value.  To those, Matthew's work is convincing
enough.

Wine, Vinegar,
& Casting Lots:

      Then, Jesus is led away to be crucified.

       [Mt 27.34-35]  ...they gave him vinegar to drink,
       mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not
       drink it.  And, when they had crucified him, they
       divided his garments among them by casting lots: that
       it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet,

       "They parted my garments among them, and upon my
       vesture did they cast lots."

First of all, the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine, of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly.  We find
that right before Jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink --not polluted with gall.

       [Jn 19.28-30]  Jesus... said, "I thirst."  A bowl of
       vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the
       vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth.  When he
       had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished;"

But, Matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the
prophets, but one from the Psalms.

       [Ps 69.20-28]  I looked for pity, but there was none;
       and for comforters, but I found none.  They gave me
       poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and
       for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink...  Add
       to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no
       acquittal from thee.  Let them be blotted out of the
       Book of the Living.

Of course, the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink.  This does indeed seem to be a show of pity.  The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies.  It
is not about the messiah or Jesus.  It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the "Jesus" in the
psalm asks G'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says,

       [Lk 23.34]  Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, the
       don't know what they do!"

Further, Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall (a bitter substance) put into Jesus's drink, not his
meat, as the psalm stipulates.

       With the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally
ask, "What of the casting of lots?"  This brings up the 22nd
Psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself.  Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesus's clothes were divided as told is no
great thing.  It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days.  As we will soon see, it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus.  It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesus's clothes.  For a man so removed from worldly possessions,
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions.

The 22nd Psalm:

      This psalm is attributed to David, as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies.  It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope.  Taken out of context, parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well.  We
will examine the primary passages.

       Verse 1-2:  My god, my god! why have you forsaken me?! 
       Why are you so far from helping me, far from the words
       of my groaning?  Oh, my god, I cry by day, but you
       don't answer, and by night, but find no rest.

Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross. 
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus, rather
than king David.  Of course, the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution.  Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the
lamb led mute before its shearers."  Indeed, Jesus doesn't do much
groaning, even when on the cross.  He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross.

       6-8:  But, I am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men... 
       All who see me mock at me.  They make faces and wag
       their heads;  "He committed his cause to YHVH.  So let
       him deliver him... for he delights in him."

This seems to fit Jesus's execution pretty well, with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm.

       12-13:  Many bulls encompass me... they open their
       mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion.

       16-18:  Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
       evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and
       feet.  I can see all my bones... They divide my
       garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment.

       19-21:  But you, YHVH, be not far away!  ...Deliver my
       soul from the sword, my life from the power of the
       dog!  Save me from the mouth of the lion, and my
       afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull!

It would seem quite convincing, and I'm sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too.  Unfortunately,
this prophecy has a fatal flaw.  The words "have pierced" really
do not exist in the psalm.  The correct Hebrew translation is,

       16:  Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
       evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my
       hands and feet...

In Hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form
which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character.  The
word in the Hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari),
which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer.  It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to "ka'aru."   But, to
add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do.  While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators.

       Apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily.  Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross.  This naturally fits the
psalm's true subject, king David.  As a side note, we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather
the forearms.  This doesn't say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms.  But then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs.

      Matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus.  But the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesus's life and death.  How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology.  It is easy to see, for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists, how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager Matthew.  But,
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims.  So far, this has not said good
things for St. Matthew.

The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesus's
crucifixion.  John's gospel recount, written about 70 years after
the fact, tells us at Jesus's execution,

       [Jn 19.34,37]  But one of the soldiers pierced his
       side with a spear, and out came blood and water...
       these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled...
       "The will look on him whom they've pierced."

Of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context.   Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them.

       [Zc 12.7-10]  And YHVH will give victory to Judah...
       And on that day, I will seek to destroy the nations
       that come against Jerusalem (in Judah).  And I will
       pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on
       Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
       pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him
       like you weep over a firstborn child.

John's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthew's attempts.  Matthew, at least, usually excontexts more
than just one passage.  John's errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here.  It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded.


Reckoned with
Transgressors:

       After his arrest, Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship, messiahship.   According to one version of
the gospel tale, Jesus gets executed along with two thieves.

       [Mk 15.27]  And with him they crucified two robbers,
       one on his right, one on his left.  And so the
       scripture was fulfilled which says,

       "He was reckoned with the transgressors."

Here, Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53,
about the servant nation of Israel.  The passage is not about the
messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, and its
surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation.  The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event.  The
servant is thought of as a criminal.  This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus.  Had the passage really been about the
messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in Isaiah.  Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry.  He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career.   Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons.

       Mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him." [15.32]  This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers.  Of course in his later recount, St. Luke
decides to change some things.  Luke tells us,

       [Lk 23.39-43]  And one of the criminals who was hanged
       with him railed, "Aren't you the messiah?! Save
       yourself, and us!"

This certainly fits with Mark's recount, which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said, "Save yourself!" and that the
robbers did the same.  But then Luke goes on,

       But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying,
       "Don't you fear G'd, since you are under the same
       sentence of condemnation?  And we, indeed justly so,
       for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds. 
       But, this man has done nothing wrong. And he said,
       "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 
       And Jesus answered, "Verily I say to you, today you
       will be with me in paradise."

Now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived.  It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech.  We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering.   Such a man,
apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have
been a robber.  We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke.  Of course, Luke's recount also disagrees with Mark's.  
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus, not both.  It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of G'd do not have this avenue open.  This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology.  In this case,
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have
seen.

The End of the
World--
       Mt. 24:

       Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament.  It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity.  Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings, and
his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about.

       The disciples: Tell us, when will this [the temple's
       destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your
       coming, and of the close of the age?

       Jesus: Take care that no one leads you astray, for
       many will come in my name, saying, "I am the christ."  
       ...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for
       this must take place, but the end is not yet.   For,
       nation will rise against nation... all this is but the
       beginning of the birthpangs.
             They will deliver you up... put you to death,
       and false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
       ...But he who endures to the end will be saved.  This
       gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a
       testimony to the nations, and then the end will come.
             So, when you see the desolation spoken of by the
       prophet Daniel, ...let those who are in Judea flee to
       the mountains.

             Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
       the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from
       heaven... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
       in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
       and see the Son of Man coming... and he will send out
       his angels... and gather his elect...
             Learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its
       branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know
       that summer is near.  So also, when you see all these
       things, you will know that He is near, at the very
       gate.  Truly I say to you, this generation will not
       pass away until all these things take place...
             But, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the
       angels, not the Son, but only the Father... Therefore,
       you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming
       at an hour you do not expect.

From this, it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples.  He tells
them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it
will come, and thus they must be ready.  Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error. 
But, unfortunately, Jesus made himself to explicit.  He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End,
and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be
swept away.
      There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation
shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not
pass away..."  Of course, the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples. 
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek,
he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear.  But. it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at
least some of them) are supposed to live to the End of the World. 
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles' responses.  It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev. 22.7, 1 Peter 4.7, 1 John 2.18, and Rev. 22.20, that Jesus
meant exactly what he said.  The End was very near.

       For 2,000 years, Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether.  For 2,000
years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back,
hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that He is coming soon. 
Surely He must be.  All we must do is wait.  Can you imagine how
tired He must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for
just the right moment to spring?


       So, shortly after his crucifixion, Jesus of Nazareth,
(Joshua-ben-Joseph), died.   It is said that after three days, or
three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three
eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine
radiance.  Then the Saviour decided it wasn't in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven.  So the story goes, anyway. 
As has been seen, there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down.  To them,
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture.  We have
seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky.  But, throughout
Church history, Christians have held fast to faith, in simple
belief.  What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question.  To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters.  Thus for 2,000 years, the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted.  Things may well continue that way for some time. 
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support
wars and persecution, I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold.

       [Mt 10.34]  Jesus: "Don't think that I have come to
       bring peace on earth.  I haven't come to bring peace,
       but rather a sword."




after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Nostalgia
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 1049


  The recent rise of nostalgia in this group combined with the
  incredible level of utter bullshit has prompted me to comb
  through my archives and pull out some of The Best of AltAtheism
  for your reading pleasure  Ill post a couple of these a day
  unless group concensus demands that I stop or I run out of good
  material

  I havent been particularly careful in the past about saving
  attributions  I think the following comes from John A Johnson
  but someone correct me if Im wrong  This is probably the longest
  of my entire collection

________________________________________________________


                                  So that the
                                  Prophecy be
                                   Fulfilled

                                       

       In considering the Christian religion and judging it
according to its claims it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy  The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth  As you will see Matthews main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages often not even
about the promised Messiah and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament  We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts  Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated  But for purposes of analysis we
will take particular claims at face value

Immanuel

       We begin of course at the beginning

       Mt 12122  [Mary] will bear a son and you
       Joseph will name him Jesus which means Gd is
       salvation for he will save his people from their
       sins  All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
       spoken by a prophet

       [Isaiah 7116]  In the days of Ahaz c 750 BCE
       king of Judah Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
       war on Jerusalem capitol of Judah but could not
       quite conquer it  When the house of David ie Ahaz
       and his court in Judah were told of this its
       heart and the heart of its people shook   And the
       lord Gd said to Isaiah go to meet with Ahaz 
       And the lord spoke to Ahaz through prophet Isaiah
       naturally saying Ask a sign of Gd your lord  It
       can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven  But
       Ahaz said I wont ask I will not put the lord to a
       test  Then Isaiah said Hear then O house of
       David  Is it not enough for you to weary men that
       you must weary my god too  Therefore the lord
       himself will give you a sign  Behold a young woman
       is with child and will bear a son and name him
       Immanuel which means Gd is with us   He will
       eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
       and choose good  For before the child knows how to
       refuse evil and choose good the land of the two kings
       you dread will have been deserted

Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics 
Further he the Hebrew word almah young woman as
specifically virgin  But this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah  It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later  It is not a prophecy about a virgin bethulah mother  In
short it not about Jesus  Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary  It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner a very general one it can be made to fit Mary  Mary
virgin or not was indeed a young woman with child  Of course
the fit is shady and has problems  Jesus while thought of by
later Christians to be Gd walking among men was never called by
the name Immanuel  If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus it becomes at best a cutandpaste prophecy a second
class prophecy   Not too convincing

Egypt

       After Jesuss birth in Bethlehem Matthew tells about a
quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion to Egypt as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses  This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king Herod

       [Mt 215]  and remained there until the death of
       Herod  This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken
       Out of Egypt I have called my son


What the lord really said was this

       [Hosea 111]  When Israel was a child I loved him 
       And out of Egypt I called my son  The more I called
       them my people the more they went from me they
       kept sacrificing to the Baals and kept burning
       incense to idols

Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hoseas oracle  But it
was indeed Israel that once called out of Egypt wanted to
return  This is history  Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here  And if we are to draw some kind of parallel here we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists Gd   Again this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped

Rachel Weeps

        While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children  Matthew then writes

       [Mt 21718]   By this that which was spoken by the
       prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled

       A voice was heard in Ramah wailing and loud
       lamentation Rachel weeping for her children
       she refused to be consoled because they were
       no more   

The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 3115 referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon of Assyria in 722
BCE  Rachel the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel Ephraim
and Manasseh is said to weep for her descendants who are no
more  It is metaphorical of course since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile
       It is interesting to note that it was Leah not Rachel who
was the ancestor of the Judeans the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were  If anyone should do weeping for her children
it is Leah  The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city
on the way to Ephrath Bethlehem
       As for Herod and his infanticide it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred  One never knows but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time 
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded  This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesuss life to enhance
the message of the churchs gospel
       Because of the whole storys similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic yet artificial approval of Jesus
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote   The children the prophet
speaks of are not dead but exiled in the Assyrian Empire  Gd
comforts the weeping Rachel saying that the children will be
returned he will gather them back together  Of course this
would not suit Matthews purpose as the children he speaks of are
dead for good  Again the prophecy Matthew sets up is not even
that and to anyone who bothers to check it out is not too
convincing

The Nazarene

       We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy  After leaving Egypt Joseph  wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth 

       [Mt 223]  that what was spoken of by the prophets
       might be fulfilled He shall be called a Nazarene

First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophets this time  Second we have to ask who He is 
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene  Worse
there are no prophecies period mentioning a Nazarene  Still
worse there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all  In the book of Judges an angel tells Samsons mother that
she will

       [Judges 135]  conceive and bear a son  No razor
       shall tough his head for he will be a Nazirite to his
       god from the day of his birth  He will deliver Israel
       from the hands of the Philistines

This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus or the messiah of Gd 
But it is the best that can be found  Obviously Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cutandpaste prophecies in that he is
simple making them up now

Bearing our
Diseases

       Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities

       [Mt 817]   This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
       prophet Isaiah He took our infirmities and bore our
       diseases

As expected the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme  We have

       [Is 534]  Surely he [the suffering servant] has
       borne our sickness and carried our pains

From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel Jehovahs chosen servant and people  He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it  This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity an image of a chastised yet cherished Israel as the
instrument of the nations salvation by Gd
      The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline  They do not speak of a servant going around and
healing people  Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations and individual Jews  Jesus
as we all know did not take the diseases onto himself  The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come but
rather something that had already happened  While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell he did not bear
the illnesses he healed  So while someone might want to say
that figuratively Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement he has to admit that Matthews parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect


Silent Messiah

      Upon healing multitudes of commoners it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet presumable so that he wouldnt arouse
the attention of the local rulers

       [Mt 121521]  This was to fulfill what was spoken by
       the prophet Isaiah   

       Behold my servant whom I have chosen my beloved
       with whom my soul is pleased  I will put my spirit on
       him and he will announce justice to the Gentiles  He
       will not wrangle or cry aloud nor will anyone hear
       his voice in the streets  He will not break a bruised
       reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
       justice to victory and the gentiles will hope in his
       name

The Isaiah passage quoted reads

       [Is 4214]  Behold my servant whom I uphold my
       chosen in whom my soul delights  I have put my
       spirit on him and he will bring forth justice to the
       nations  We will not cry or lift up his voice or
       make it heard in the street  He will not break a
       bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick  He will
       faithfully bring forth justice  He will not fail
       burn dimly or be discouraged bruised until he has
       established justice in the earth  And the coastlands
       await his law

You see Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus  Christians could
never think of Jesus failing never would the light of mankind
burn dimly  But the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done  When the gentiles come to embrace
Gd there will no longer be a chosen people but rather all will
be the children of Gd  Also the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic the coastlands await his law to the
Christologic the Gentiles will hope in his name   While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of believing in the name  If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus one has only
to read the whole chapter Isaiah 42 and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant a people robbed and
plundered   So we see that when Matthews attempt at
prophecy is examined it crumbles

Three Days and
Three Nights

      Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself  He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection

       [Mt 1240]   For as Jonah was in the belly of the
       whale for three days and three nights so will the Son
       of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
       three nights

Before any further discussion can occur it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days  As far as day names went each was
24 hours long lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm  What was referred to as a day was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm  Thus according to our time
scale a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening and lasted until
6pm saturday evening  This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays instead of Sundays 
It seems like a real miracle that Christians didnt forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week  Thus
when days and nights are referred to together 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of  Thus
Jesus says that he will be in the grave or in hell or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights

      As the good book tells us Jesus was crucified on the ninth
hour which is 3pm Friday afternoon  He then was put into the
grave sometime after that  Then Jesus left the grave rose
before dawn of what we call Sunday The dawn after the sabbath was
over  What this means is that Jesus was using our time for
clarity in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning  We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday since the bible is not specific here  What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day two
nights and possibly a couple of hours of one day  Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction  There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights even using modern time measurements   We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthews little
mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his
gods mouth   And no matter who made the prediction it is more
than unconvincing it is counterconvincing

Hearing 
Understanding

     Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables stories in which a deeper meaning could be found if
you were already one of the elect those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus  He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants  If the people cannot understand
them there is no need to bother with them since they will not
accept the plain message any better  Matthew says

       [Mt 131416]  With them [the audience] indeed in
       fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says 

       You will indeed hear but never understand and you
       will indeed see but never perceive  Because this
       peoples heart has grown dull their ears are heavy of
       hearing and they have shut their eyes so the they
       would not perceive with them her with their ears and
       understand with their heart and turn for me to heal
       them

The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works his
call to the ministry  This is in 740 BCE when Israel is
flourishing right before it falls under the authority of Assyria 
Isaiah sees the good times ending and also a vision from Gd
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah

       [Is 6913]  And Gd said Go and say to this
       people `Hear and hear but do not understand see and
       see but do not perceive   Make the heart of this
       people fat make their ears heavy and shut their
       eyes so they will not see with their eyes or hear
       with their ears and understand with their hearts and
       turn and be healed  Then Isaiah said How long
       lord  And he said Until the cities lie waste
       without inhabitant and houses without men and the
       land is utterly desolate and the Gds take men far
       away and forsaken places are many in the land  And
       though a tenth will remain in it it will be burned
       again like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
       stands when the tree is felled The holy seed is its
       stump

Here we see that it is really Gd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophets warnings but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomons and Davids seedlineage  If you read
the rest of Isaiah you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of Gd to use Israel as a servant a light to the nations  Look
at Isaiah 421825 4820 493
     We see that Matthew has cutandpasted just a little portion
of Isaiahs verse to suit his own gospel needs  More than that
he has altered the words to make it fit the people who didnt
understand Jesuss stories  And as we see Isaiahs verses are
not prophecies but rather commands from Gd to him in the
present   Once again Matthews prophecy falls flat on its face 

     Matthew tries again to make Jesuss parables look like they
have the prophetic approval

       [Mt 1335]  he said nothing to them without a
       parable  This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
       prophet I will open my mouth to them in parables  I
       will utter that which has been hidden since the
       foundation of the world

Matthew really botches up here  He attempts to quote not from a
prophet but from the Psalms

       [Ps 7824]  I will open my mouth in parable  I will
       utter dark sayings of old things that we all have
       heard and known things that our fathers have told us 
       We will not hide them from their children but tell to
       the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
       lord

As was pointed out the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet  You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthews gospel even inserted Isaiahs name as this prophet 
Apparently later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up
     Perhaps the most significant part of this is that once
again Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures  As Jesus
has said earlier he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them  The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden 
Further they speak of things known that our fathers have told
us  Jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation of the
world  Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion 
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms  No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them   And still once again
Matthews artificial prophecies fall flat on their face  But
Christians rarely look at this  Matthews prophecies arent the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad


Excuses of
Little Faith

       In Mt 171421 we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons except in one case  Not knowing what
epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons  It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to dispossess the epileptic  But Jesus perhaps no more
enlightened than they is reported to have rebuked them saying
they didnt have enough faith   This seems strange  Why was this
demon special  It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not  Apparently enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains  Of course you will find no one these days that can
move real mountains  No one parts seas  The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place  Major miracles are making some old
womans arthritis feel better on Sunday morning TV

       And the gods including Jesus are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts  They are either dead sleeping or hiding in
heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone  Yet life goes on  

     Tales of mystics stories of miracles all in a distant time
or a distant place  Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days Jehovah too  But now they are silent  All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we dont get to see
God anymore

       Were too lazy were not zealous enough were
       sinful its just his plan we put too many of our
       own demands on Gds appearance if we had the right
       faith if we  were willing to meet Gd on his terms

     Yet even the most pious of men have not seen Gd  You dear
reader have not seen Gd  Not literally you know that to be
true I know thats presumptuous and bold  But searching your
heart you know what I mean  All that weve seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing Gd  They say
our little faith does not merit us to see Gd  Sometimes they
say See the love in these people you worship with see the
lives of people change that is seeing Gd   Thus people get
lulled to sleep satisfied with turning Gd into the everyday
sights   But that is not seeing Gd as I am speaking of it is
not seeing Gd the way people used to see  
      What we see in the world that is good is the compassion of
human hearts the love given and taken by men and women the
forgiveness practised by Christian  Atheist alike beauty created
by the mind of man  These are the things that are done these are
what we see  But it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith

Jesus Rides on
an Ass

       Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem  

       [Mt 215]  This took place to fulfil what was spoken
       by the prophet saying

       Tell the daughter of Zion Behold your king is
       coming to you humble mounted on an ass and on a
       asscolt

Of course the passage quoted from Zechariah 99 reads a little
differently

       Lo your king comes to you he is triumphant and
       victorious humble and riding on an ass on an ass
       colt he will command peace to the nations

There isnt all that much difference here except that Zechariah
only involves one animal  an asscolt  while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently  Thus he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass  From Matthews version we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys  This could inevitably lead to a theological
proctological dilemma   We find that in the account written
earlier by St Mark only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus  This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses he has
bungled  Now excluding many respectable Christians I have met I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses
the situation is often reversed nowadays

       Then entering the Jerusalem temple the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah  But
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done

       [Mt 2116]  Havent you read  `Out of the mouth of
       babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise

It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little prophetic things AND
since as we might expect the quote is in error which seems to
fit Matthews track record quite well  We might ask Jesus or
Matthew Havent you read for the source reads

       [Psalms 812]  O YaHWeH our lord how majestic is
       your name in the whole world   You whose glory is
       chanted above the heavens by babes and infants you
       have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
       enemy and the avenger

The passages hardly need comment  There is no perfect praise
spoken of in the psalm and what praise is there is given to Gd
not his messiah king and not Jesus  As mentioned it seems to be
just one more case of Matthews pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture

YHVH said to 
my lord

      Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiahking is to be descended  The Jews agree it is king
David  But then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110

       The LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until
       I put your enemies under your feet

Taken at face value Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent  One assumes he is in opposition to their answer  Of
course the Christian answer is that he agrees but is trying to
make some hidden point to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiahking  Its tempting to believe this if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation 
But there are problems
       In Jesuss time the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah  And it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior  We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under Davids
rule  Of course the Jews listening had no good answer and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah such as the
Christians worship  The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm an error that apparently several Jews of Jesuss time had
also made  One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews often as a result of different expectations of the
messiahking  Jesus was apparently one of these adventists like
his audience who thought the messiahs advent was imminent and
who interpreted Psalms 110 among others as being messianic
What is the problem then  Psalm 110 literally reads

       YHVHs utterance to my lord
	Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your
       footstool

       YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion  Rule
       in the midst of your foes  Your people will offer
       themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
       holy mountains  

       You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
       forever

The word lord is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord  But in the Hebrew the
word is adoni and no capitalisation exists  Adoni simply means
lord a generic term as we would use it  It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to Gd  It is merely an
address of respect  
      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiahking  That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain  The title of the
psalm translates to either a psalm of David or a psalm about
David  It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet about Davids covenant and endorsement from Gd  If the
psalm had been written by David it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah  The idea of a perfect king descended
from David was not present in Davids age  We have extensive
tales of Davids doings and sayings none of which include any
praises of a messiah
     Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead in times of the exile when Gd had put his show of
favour for Davids kingdom on hold  
     The description in the psalm fit David very well  David was
promised by Gd a rise to power victory over his enemies
successful judgement among the nations he conquered  He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king
enabled to bless the people   It all fits
      We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone
though  Here there is not artificial prophecy alluded to though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable  Still this
event is common to the other gospels too  So we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time  It is interesting to note
though how Matthew dresses up the event  The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd 
Matthew has the Pharisees who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity be the target of Jesuss question  As we
might expect Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees  Such power is the pen

Moses  Jesus
Had it Together
All Along

       We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudoprophecy in Johns gospel  The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesuss career as told by even Matthew 
But for the moment we will just look at one verse  The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by Gd  When constructing the history of Abraham Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people  While this
was accomplished eventually under the rule of king David the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise  But to do so they expanded on the
promise preaching about a heavenly kingdom

       [John 856] JC speaking Your father Abraham
       rejoiced to see My day  He say it and was glad

It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham but
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah or anything Christian 
I have tried and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to Johns little prophecy  It is par for the
course to see St John making up Old Testament backings just like
his forerunner Matthew  Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud and it is surprising they
still cling to it

The Potters
Field

      We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers Judas Iscariot   Matthew writes

       [Mt 27510]  And throwing down the pieces of silver
       in the temple [Judas] departed But the chief
       priests taking the silver said It isnt lawful for
       us to put it in the treasury since it is blood
       money  So they bought a potters field with it to
       bury strangers in Then was fulfilled what was
       spoken by the prophet Jeremiah

       And they took the thirty pieces of silver the price
       of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
       sons of Israel and they gave them for the potters
       field as the lord directed me

This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture  First Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet  It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of

       [Zech 111213]  And they weighed out my wages
       thirty shekels of silver  Then YHVH said to me Cast
       them to the treasury the lordly price at which I
       was paid off by them  So I took the thirty shekels of
       silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
       YHVH

First of all the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah or of Gd  The deal with a shepherd most likely
a priest chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before Gd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another  The word treasury had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with to the potter precisely because this made
Matthews quote fit better  But this is a blatant error  The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed treasury which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariahs context whereas potters
field is totally unrelated  Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation  However given
Matthews track record one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty
      Of course Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text  The thirty pieces of silver match Judass situation and if
as most Christians seem to be the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around  However the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests  The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury  The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite  Of course to the average ThursdayNight Bible student
the prophecy as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value  To those Matthews work is convincing
enough

Wine Vinegar
 Casting Lots

      Then Jesus is led away to be crucified

       [Mt 273435]  they gave him vinegar to drink
       mingled with gall but when he tasted it he would not
       drink it  And when they had crucified him they
       divided his garments among them by casting lots that
       it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet

       They parted my garments among them and upon my
       vesture did they cast lots

First of all the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly  We find
that right before Jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink not polluted with gall

       [Jn 192830]  Jesus said I thirst  A bowl of
       vinegar stood there so they put a sponge full of the
       vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth  When he
       had received the vinegar he said It is finished

But Matthew seems to be drawing on not a passage from the
prophets but one from the Psalms

       [Ps 692028]  I looked for pity but there was none
       and for comforters but I found none  They gave me
       poison for food lit they put gall in my meat and
       for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink  Add
       to them punishment upon punishment may they have no
       acquittal from thee  Let them be blotted out of the
       Book of the Living

Of course the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink  This does indeed seem to be a show of pity  The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies  It
is not about the messiah or Jesus  It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the Jesus in the
psalm asks Gd for the damnation of the crucifiers whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says

       [Lk 2334]  Jesus said Father forgive them the
       dont know what they do

Further Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall a bitter substance put into Jesuss drink not his
meat as the psalm stipulates

       With the prophecy of the vinegar faulty we naturally
ask What of the casting of lots  This brings up the 22nd
Psalm which deserves discussion all by itself  Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesuss clothes were divided as told is no
great thing  It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days  As we will soon see it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus  It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesuss clothes  For a man so removed from worldly possessions
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions

The 22nd Psalm

      This psalm is attributed to David as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies  It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope  Taken out of context parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well  We
will examine the primary passages

       Verse 12  My god my god why have you forsaken me 
       Why are you so far from helping me far from the words
       of my groaning  Oh my god I cry by day but you
       dont answer and by night but find no rest

Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross 
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus rather
than king David  Of course the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution  Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal he is supposed to be like the
lamb led mute before its shearers  Indeed Jesus doesnt do much
groaning even when on the cross  He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross

       68  But I am a worm and no man scorned by men 
       All who see me mock at me  They make faces and wag
       their heads  He committed his cause to YHVH  So let
       him deliver him for he delights in him

This seems to fit Jesuss execution pretty well with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm

       1213  Many bulls encompass me they open their
       mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion

       1618  Yea dogs are round about me a company of
       evildoers encircle me they have pierced my hands and
       feet  I can see all my bones They divide my
       garments among them and cast lost for my raiment

       1921  But you YHVH be not far away  Deliver my
       soul from the sword my life from the power of the
       dog  Save me from the mouth of the lion and my
       afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull

It would seem quite convincing and Im sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too  Unfortunately
this prophecy has a fatal flaw  The words have pierced really
do not exist in the psalm  The correct Hebrew translation is

       16  Yea dogs are round about me a company of
       evildoers encircles me like the lion they are at my
       hands and feet

In Hebrew the phrase like the lion and a very rare verb form
which can mean pierced differ by one phonetic character  The
word in the Hebrew text is literally like the lion kaari
which makes sense in the context and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer  It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to kaaru   But to
add the needed yet artificial weight to the prophecy this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do  While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators

       Apart from the erroneous verse 16 the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily  Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross  This naturally fits the
psalms true subject king David  As a side note we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather
the forearms  This doesnt say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms  But then facts arent bound by our religious beliefs

      Matthew escapes culpability this time as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus  But the psalm like many others was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesuss life and death  How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology  It is easy to see for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been enhanced by scribes such as the eager Matthew  But
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims  So far this has not said good
things for St Matthew

The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesuss
crucifixion  Johns gospel recount written about 70 years after
the fact tells us at Jesuss execution

       [Jn 193437]  But one of the soldiers pierced his
       side with a spear and out came blood and water
       these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled
       The will look on him whom theyve pierced

Of course this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context   Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them

       [Zc 12710]  And YHVH will give victory to Judah
       And on that day I will seek to destroy the nations
       that come against Jerusalem in Judah  And I will
       pour a spirit of compassion and supplication on
       Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
       pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him
       like you weep over a firstborn child

Johns attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthews attempts  Matthew at least usually excontexts more
than just one passage  Johns errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here  It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded


Reckoned with
Transgressors

       After his arrest Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship messiahship   According to one version of
the gospel tale Jesus gets executed along with two thieves

       [Mk 1527]  And with him they crucified two robbers
       one on his right one on his left  And so the
       scripture was fulfilled which says

       He was reckoned with the transgressors

Here Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53
about the servant nation of Israel  The passage is not about the
messiah for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and its
surrounding chapters one sees that the servant is a nation  The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past not a prediction of what is to come in any event  The
servant is thought of as a criminal  This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus  Had the passage really been about the
messiah it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah  Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry  He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career   Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy at least in this case as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons

       Mark goes on to tell us how those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him [1532]  This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers  Of course in his later recount St Luke
decides to change some things  Luke tells us

       [Lk 233943]  And one of the criminals who was hanged
       with him railed Arent you the messiah Save
       yourself and us

This certainly fits with Marks recount which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said Save yourself and that the
robbers did the same  But then Luke goes on

       But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying
       Dont you fear Gd since you are under the same
       sentence of condemnation  And we indeed justly so
       for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds 
       But this man has done nothing wrong And he said
       Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom 
       And Jesus answered Verily I say to you today you
       will be with me in paradise

Now this little dialogue seems highly contrived  It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech  We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering   Such a man
apparently noble and of principle doesnt seem likely to have
been a robber  We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke  Of course Lukes recount also disagrees with Marks  
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus not both  It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of Gd do not have this avenue open  This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology  In this case
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems as we have
seen

The End of the
World
       Mt 24

       Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament  It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity  Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings and
his disciples ask him about this and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about

       The disciples Tell us when will this [the temples
       destruction] be and what will be the sign of your
       coming and of the close of the age

       Jesus Take care that no one leads you astray for
       many will come in my name saying I am the christ  
       you will hear of wars and rumours of wars for
       this must take place but the end is not yet   For
       nation will rise against nation all this is but the
       beginning of the birthpangs
             They will deliver you up put you to death
       and false prophets will arise and lead many astray
       But he who endures to the end will be saved  This
       gospel will be preached throughout the whole world a
       testimony to the nations and then the end will come
             So when you see the desolation spoken of by the
       prophet Daniel let those who are in Judea flee to
       the mountains

             Immediately after the tribulation of those days
       the sun will be darkened the stars will fall from
       heaven then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
       in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn
       and see the Son of Man coming and he will send out
       his angels and gather his elect
             Learn the lesson of the fig tree as soon as its
       branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know
       that summer is near  So also when you see all these
       things you will know that He is near at the very
       gate  Truly I say to you this generation will not
       pass away until all these things take place
             But of the day and hour no one knows not the
       angels not the Son but only the Father Therefore
       you also must be ready for the Son of Man is coming
       at an hour you do not expect

From this it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples  He tells
them that although he doesnt know the exact day or hour that it
will come and thus they must be ready  Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error 
But unfortunately Jesus made himself to explicit  He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End
and that they in particular should prepare for it prepare to be
swept away
      There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible and said that the phrase this generation
shall not pass away really means this race of people will not
pass away  Of course the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that the generation of the disciples 
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek
he didnt learn it well enough to make himself clear  But it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples at
least some of them are supposed to live to the End of the World 
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles responses  It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev 227 1 Peter 47 1 John 218 and Rev 2220 that Jesus
meant exactly what he said  The End was very near

       For 2000 years Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew or ignored its meaning altogether  For 2000
years they have waited for their executed leader to come back
hearing of wars and rumours of wars sure that He is coming soon 
Surely He must be  All we must do is wait  Can you imagine how
tired He must be sitting around up there being holy waiting for
just the right moment to spring


       So shortly after his crucifixion Jesus of Nazareth
JoshuabenJoseph died   It is said that after three days or
three days and three nights or three periods of time or three
eternal seconds or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble he was seen again resurrected glowing with divine
radiance  Then the Saviour decided it wasnt in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven  So the story goes anyway 
As has been seen there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down  To them
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture  We have
seen though that this matter is quite shaky  But throughout
Church history Christians have held fast to faith in simple
belief  What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question  To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters  Thus for 2000 years the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted  Things may well continue that way for some time 
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used properly or improperly to support
wars and persecution I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold

       [Mt 1034]  Jesus Dont think that I have come to
       bring peace on earth  I havent come to bring peace
       but rather a sword




preprocess doc  From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 31

In article <STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

> Why Paul, it's obvious.
> Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
> as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
> sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to
> assume any developments in Ti processing).
> Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
> the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
> of National Importance 
>
> :-) :-) :-) 

Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification.  The
chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace.

Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago.  Very little is reduced to the
metal.

> Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
> in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
> the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
> use...

Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

after prepro  From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 31

In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

 Why Paul its obvious
 Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
 as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will
 sharply increase we are of course not allowed to
 assume any developments in Ti processing
 Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
 the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
 of National Importance 

    

Well there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification  The
chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace

Most Ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago  Very little is reduced to the
metal

 Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
 in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
 the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
 use

Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all and why their children would want to stay

	Paul F Dietz
	dietzcsrochesteredu

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: $1bil space race ideas/moon base on the cheap.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.150437.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

That is an idea.. The most efficient moon habitat.. 

also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won..

Also the idea of how to rescue someone who is "dying" on the moon.

Maybe have a area where they can all "see" each other, and can help each other
if something happens.. 

I liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return, by a
non-governmental body..

Also the idea of then having a moon habitat race.. 

I know we need to do somthing to get people involved..

Eccentric millionaire/billionaire would be nice.. We see how old Ross feels
about it.. After all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he
does care about commericalization and the people.. Will try to broach the
subject to him.. 

Moonbase on the cheap is a good idea.. NASA and friends seem to take to much
time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work (hubble and
such). Basically what is the difference between a $1mil peice of junk and a
multi $1mil piece of junk.. I know junk..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject 1bil space race ideasmoon base on the cheap
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251504371
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

That is an idea The most efficient moon habitat 

also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won

Also the idea of how to rescue someone who is dying on the moon

Maybe have a area where they can all see each other and can help each other
if something happens 

I liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return by a
nongovernmental body

Also the idea of then having a moon habitat race 

I know we need to do somthing to get people involved

Eccentric millionairebillionaire would be nice We see how old Ross feels
about it After all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he
does care about commericalization and the people Will try to broach the
subject to him 

Moonbase on the cheap is a good idea NASA and friends seem to take to much
time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work hubble and
such Basically what is the difference between a 1mil peice of junk and a
multi 1mil piece of junk I know junk


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re:  Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 24

In article <C5L1Fv.H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
>How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?  
>

  So now we're judging the Qur'an by what's not in it?  

  How many mutton headed arguments am I going to have to wade
  through today?

>Lots of other books have been written on this subject.  Those
>books can speak far more eloquently than I.

  One would hope.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re  Islam And Scientific Predictions was
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 24

In article  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it  


  So now were judging the Quran by whats not in it  

  How many mutton headed arguments am I going to have to wade
  through today

Lots of other books have been written on this subject  Those
books can speak far more eloquently than I

  One would hope

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (was: Americans and Evolution)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 110
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu

In article <1993Apr2.155057.808@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
[why do babies get diseases, etc.]
>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
>mutable and can evolve.  Without delving into a deep discussion of
>creationism vs evolutionism,

 Here's the (main) problem. The scenario you outline is reasonably 
consistent, but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does
not support it, but indicates something far different. The Earth, by
latest estimates, is about 4.6 billion years old, and has had life for
about 3.5 billion of those years. Humans have only been around for (at
most) about 200,000 years. But, the fossil evidence inidcates that life
has been changing and evolving, and, in fact, disease-ridden, long before
there were people. (Yes, there are fossils that show signs of disease...
mostly bone disorders, of course, but there are some.) Heck, not just
fossil evidence, but what we've been able to glean from genetic study shows
that disease has been around for a long, long time. If human sin was what
brought about disease (at least, indirectly, though necessarily) then
how could it exist before humans?

>                             God created the original genetic code
>perfect and without flaw.  And without getting sidetracked into
>the theological ramifications of the original sin, the main effect
>of the so-called original sin for this discussion was to remove
>humanity from God's protection since by their choice A&E cut
>themselves off from intimate fellowship with God.  In addition, their
>sin caused them to come under the dominion of Satan, who then assumed
>dominion over the earth...
[deletions]
>Since humanity was no longer under God's protection but under Satan's
>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic.  Although the forces of
>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.  

 Uh... I know of many evolutionary biologists, who know more about
biology than you claim to, who will strongly disagree with this. There
is no evidence that the human genetic code (or any other) 'started off'
in perfect condition. It seems to adapt to its envionment, in a
collective sense. I'm really curious as to what you mean by 'the
degeneration of the genetic code'.

>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the 
>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in 
>causing infection and disease.  It is a bad combination.

 Umm. Nah, we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and
bacteria, and they to us. Only a very small percentage of microlife is
harmful to humans... and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby
constant in size, but the ranks keep changing. For example, bubonic
plague used to be a really nasty disease, I'm sure you'll agree. But
it still pops up from time to time, even today... and doesn't do as
much damage. Part of that is because of better sanitation, but even
when people get the disease, the symptoms tend to be less severe than in
the past. This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible
died off long ago, and because the really nasty variants 'overgrazed',
(forgive the poor terminology, I'm an engineer, not a doctor! :-> ) and
died off for lack of nearby hosts.
 I could be wrong on this, but from what I gather acne is only a few
hundred years old, and used to be nastier, though no killer. It seems to
be getting less nasty w/age...

>                                                          Hence
>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
>diseases/disorders.

 Now, wait a minute. I have a question. Humans were created perfect, right?
And, you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease. It
seems unlikely that Satan, who's making the diseases, would also gift
humans with the means to fight them off. Simpler to make the diseases less
lethal, if he wants survivors. As far as I can see, our immune systems,
imperfect though they may (presently?) be, must have been built into us
by God. I want to be clear on this: are you saying that God was planning
ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune
system that was not, at the time of design, necessary? That is, God made
our immune systems ahead of time, knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and
their descendents would need to fight off diseases?

>This may be more of a mystical/supernatural explanation than you
>are prepared to accept, but God is not responsible for disease.
>Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
>disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since
>humanity forsook God's protection.

 Here's another puzzle. What, exactly, do you mean by 'perfect' in the
phrase, 'created... perfect and without flaw'? To my mind, a 'perfect'
system would be incapable of degrading over time. A 'perfect' system
that will, without constant intervention, become imperfect is *not* a
perfect system. At least, IMHO.
 Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a
bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmer's glue? That is, the
original genetic 'instructions' were perfect, but were 'written' in
inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart?
If so, why could God not have used better materials?
 Was God *incapable* of creating a system that could maintain itself,
of did It just choose not to?

[deletions]
>In summary, newborns are innocent, but God does not cause their suffering.

 My main point, as I said, was that there really isn't any evidence for
the explanation you give. (At least, that I'm aware of.) But, I couldn't
help making a few nitpicks here and there. :->

Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality was Americans and Evolution
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 110
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu

In article 1993Apr2155057808batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
[why do babies get diseases etc]
What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
mutable and can evolve  Without delving into a deep discussion of
creationism vs evolutionism

 Heres the main problem The scenario you outline is reasonably 
consistent but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does
not support it but indicates something far different The Earth by
latest estimates is about 46 billion years old and has had life for
about 35 billion of those years Humans have only been around for at
most about 200000 years But the fossil evidence inidcates that life
has been changing and evolving and in fact diseaseridden long before
there were people Yes there are fossils that show signs of disease
mostly bone disorders of course but there are some Heck not just
fossil evidence but what weve been able to glean from genetic study shows
that disease has been around for a long long time If human sin was what
brought about disease at least indirectly though necessarily then
how could it exist before humans

                             God created the original genetic code
perfect and without flaw  And without getting sidetracked into
the theological ramifications of the original sin the main effect
of the socalled original sin for this discussion was to remove
humanity from Gods protection since by their choice AE cut
themselves off from intimate fellowship with God  In addition their
sin caused them to come under the dominion of Satan who then assumed
dominion over the earth
[deletions]
Since humanity was no longer under Gods protection but under Satans
dominion it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
diseases both bacterialviral and genetic  Although the forces of
natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the
degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this  

 Uh I know of many evolutionary biologists who know more about
biology than you claim to who will strongly disagree with this There
is no evidence that the human genetic code or any other started off
in perfect condition It seems to adapt to its envionment in a
collective sense Im really curious as to what you mean by the
degeneration of the genetic code

Human DNA being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely
affecting our wellbeing and ability to fight off disease while the 
simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in 
causing infection and disease  It is a bad combination

 Umm Nah we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and
bacteria and they to us Only a very small percentage of microlife is
harmful to humans and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby
constant in size but the ranks keep changing For example bubonic
plague used to be a really nasty disease Im sure youll agree But
it still pops up from time to time even today and doesnt do as
much damage Part of that is because of better sanitation but even
when people get the disease the symptoms tend to be less severe than in
the past This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible
died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed
forgive the poor terminology Im an engineer not a doctor   and
died off for lack of nearby hosts
 I could be wrong on this but from what I gather acne is only a few
hundred years old and used to be nastier though no killer It seems to
be getting less nasty wage

                                                          Hence
we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial
diseasesdisorders

 Now wait a minute I have a question Humans were created perfect right
And you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease It
seems unlikely that Satan whos making the diseases would also gift
humans with the means to fight them off Simpler to make the diseases less
lethal if he wants survivors As far as I can see our immune systems
imperfect though they may presently be must have been built into us
by God I want to be clear on this are you saying that God was planning
ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune
system that was not at the time of design necessary That is God made
our immune systems ahead of time knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and
their descendents would need to fight off diseases

This may be more of a mysticalsupernatural explanation than you
are prepared to accept but God is not responsible for disease
Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since
humanity forsook Gods protection

 Heres another puzzle What exactly do you mean by perfect in the
phrase created perfect and without flaw To my mind a perfect
system would be incapable of degrading over time A perfect system
that will without constant intervention become imperfect is not a
perfect system At least IMHO
 Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a
bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmers glue That is the
original genetic instructions were perfect but were written in
inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart
If so why could God not have used better materials
 Was God incapable of creating a system that could maintain itself
of did It just choose not to

[deletions]
In summary newborns are innocent but God does not cause their suffering

 My main point as I said was that there really isnt any evidence for
the explanation you give At least that Im aware of But I couldnt
help making a few nitpicks here and there 

Sincerely

Ray Ingles                   The above opinions are probably
                             not those of the University of
inglesenginumichedu       Michigan Yet

preprocess doc  From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion...)
Lines: 48

nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu, University of Alaska Fairbanks writes:

[A GOOD DEAL OF HEALTHY IF NOT DEEPLY THOUGHT OUT IDEALISM DELETED
BELOW.]

>Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
>[...] Can the truly inforce it? [...] 

If their parent company does business (and they will) on the face of the Earth
then they are vulnerable to govt. sanctions.  Yes they can be stopped.

>If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
>stop you from doing it. [...]   

For the first 100 - 500 (IMHO) years nobody will have to.  The colonists will
be too dependent on Earth too pull it off.  Eventually they will, history
shows us that.

>Also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it. 
>The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will
>not care [...]

What exactly do you mean here?  Terrorism?  Start an international incident
so your dream can come true?  Crack a few eggs to make the omelet?  This
sounds fairly irresponsible.


>Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
>little bit farther out, to do jus ta  little bit more, and to tell the crown to
>piss off.. If my ancestors thought the way many today think, Id have been born
>in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea..        

Again, the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than
any immigrants that have gone before.  Even those intrepid Asian
explorers that crossed the Bering land bridge did not have to carry their
air on their backs.

==    
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked  

Keep the dream alive, maybe dream it a little more cogently.

Tom Freebairn   | There once was a man
		| Who built a boat
		| To sail away in.
		| It sank.
		|        J.P. Donleavy
			 _Fairy Tale of New York_ (maybe?)

after prepro  From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion
Lines 48

nsmcaauroraalaskaedu University of Alaska Fairbanks writes

[A GOOD DEAL OF HEALTHY IF NOT DEEPLY THOUGHT OUT IDEALISM DELETED
BELOW]

Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
[] Can the truly inforce it [] 

If their parent company does business and they will on the face of the Earth
then they are vulnerable to govt sanctions  Yes they can be stopped

If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it []   

For the first 100  500 IMHO years nobody will have to  The colonists will
be too dependent on Earth too pull it off  Eventually they will history
shows us that

Also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it 
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will
not care []

What exactly do you mean here  Terrorism  Start an international incident
so your dream can come true  Crack a few eggs to make the omelet  This
sounds fairly irresponsible


Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out to do jus ta  little bit more and to tell the crown to
piss off If my ancestors thought the way many today think Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea        

Again the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than
any immigrants that have gone before  Even those intrepid Asian
explorers that crossed the Bering land bridge did not have to carry their
air on their backs

    
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked  

Keep the dream alive maybe dream it a little more cogently

Tom Freebairn    There once was a man
		 Who built a boat
		 To sail away in
		 It sank
		        JP Donleavy
			 _Fairy Tale of New York_ maybe

preprocess doc  From: nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson)
Subject: COMET...when did/will she launch?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Lines: 12

COMET (Commercial Experiment Transport) is to launch from Wallops Island
Virginia and orbit Earth for about 30 days. It is scheduled to come down
in the Utah Test & Training Range, west of Salt Lake City, Utah. I saw
a message in this group toward the end of March that it was to launch 
on March 27. Does anyone know if it launched on that day, or if not, 
when it is scheduled to launch and/or when it will come down.

I would also be interested in what kind(s) of payload(s) are onboard.

Thanks for your help.

Norman Anderson          nanderso@endor.sim.es.com

after prepro  From nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson
Subject COMETwhen didwill she launch
Organization Evans  Sutherland Computer Corp
Lines 12

COMET Commercial Experiment Transport is to launch from Wallops Island
Virginia and orbit Earth for about 30 days It is scheduled to come down
in the Utah Test  Training Range west of Salt Lake City Utah I saw
a message in this group toward the end of March that it was to launch 
on March 27 Does anyone know if it launched on that day or if not 
when it is scheduled to launch andor when it will come down

I would also be interested in what kinds of payloads are onboard

Thanks for your help

Norman Anderson          nandersoendorsimescom

preprocess doc  Subject: Fluids vs Liquids
From: mikec@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Micheal Cranford)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 18

west@next02.wam.umd.edu (Brian West) writes:
[ deleted ]
>A similar analogy can be made with glass. For those of you who don't 
>know, glass is a liquid (go ask your science teacher) and DOES flow.
[ deleted ]

  If your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid, try to get a different
science teacher B^).  Glass is a supercooled fluid, it is not a liquid (except
at very high temperatures).  The definition of liquid includes "readily takes
the form of its container".  Let's try to be more accurate here.  We don't want
people to think we're creationists now do we?


  UUCP:  uunet!tektronix!sail!mikec  or                  M.Cranford
         uunet!tektronix!sail.labs.tek.com!mikec         Principal Troll
  ARPA:  mikec%sail.LABS.TEK.COM@RELAY.CS.NET            Resident Skeptic
  CSNet: mikec@sail.LABS.TEK.COM                         TekLabs, Tektronix


after prepro  Subject Fluids vs Liquids
From mikecsailLABSTEKCOM Micheal Cranford
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 18

westnext02wamumdedu Brian West writes
[ deleted ]
A similar analogy can be made with glass For those of you who dont 
know glass is a liquid go ask your science teacher and DOES flow
[ deleted ]

  If your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid try to get a different
science teacher B^  Glass is a supercooled fluid it is not a liquid except
at very high temperatures  The definition of liquid includes readily takes
the form of its container  Lets try to be more accurate here  We dont want
people to think were creationists now do we


  UUCP  uunettektronixsailmikec  or                  MCranford
         uunettektronixsaillabstekcommikec         Principal Troll
  ARPA  mikecsailLABSTEKCOMRELAYCSNET            Resident Skeptic
  CSNet mikecsailLABSTEKCOM                         TekLabs Tektronix


preprocess doc  From:  ()
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: nstlm66
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 21

In article <115561@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:

>Khomeini advocates the view that
> there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders (the Twelve Imams) who
> are free of error or sin. This makes him a heretic.
> 

Wow, you're quicker to point out heresy than the Church in the
Middle ages. Seriously though, even the Sheiks at Al-Azhar don't
claim that the Shi'ites are heretics. Most of the accusations
and fabrications about Shi'ites come out of Saudi Arabia from the
Wahabis. For that matter you should read the original works of
the Sunni Imams (Imams of the four madhabs). The teacher of
at least two of them was Imam Jafar Sadiq (the sixth Imam of the
Shi'ites). 

Although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around
about the Shi'ites (esp. since the revolution), there are also
many good works by Shi'ites which present the views and teachings
of their school. Why make assumptions and allegations (like
people in this group have done about Islam in general) about Shi'ites.

after prepro  From  
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost nstlm66
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 21

In article 115561buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote

Khomeini advocates the view that
 there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders the Twelve Imams who
 are free of error or sin This makes him a heretic
 

Wow youre quicker to point out heresy than the Church in the
Middle ages Seriously though even the Sheiks at AlAzhar dont
claim that the Shiites are heretics Most of the accusations
and fabrications about Shiites come out of Saudi Arabia from the
Wahabis For that matter you should read the original works of
the Sunni Imams Imams of the four madhabs The teacher of
at least two of them was Imam Jafar Sadiq the sixth Imam of the
Shiites 

Although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around
about the Shiites esp since the revolution there are also
many good works by Shiites which present the views and teachings
of their school Why make assumptions and allegations like
people in this group have done about Islam in general about Shiites

preprocess doc  Subject: Space FAQ 01/15 - Introduction
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:53:44 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <intro_730956346@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 310

Archive-name: space/intro
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:10 $

    FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON SCI.SPACE/SCI.ASTRO

    INTRODUCTION

    This series of linked messages is periodically posted to the Usenet
groups sci.space and sci.astro in an attempt to provide good answers to
frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth
preserving. If you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked
questions that you would like included in this posting, send email to
leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech).

    If you don't want to see the FAQ, add 'Frequently Asked Questions' to
your KILL file for this group (if you're not reading this with a newsreader
that can kill articles by subject, you're out of luck).

    The FAQ volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down
by rewriting and condensing over time. The FAQ postings are available in
the Ames SPACE archive in FAQ/faq<#>.

    Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here. The
point of this is to circulate existing information, and avoid rehashing old
answers. Better to build on top than start again. Nothing more depressing
than rehashing old topics for the 100th time. References are provided
because they give more complete information than any short generalization.

    Questions fall into three basic types:

    1) Where do I find some information about space?

    Try your local public library first. The net is not a good place to ask
    for general information. Ask INDIVIDUALS (by email) if you must. There
    are other sources, use them, too. The net is a place for open ended
    discussion.

    2) I have an idea which would improve space flight?

    Hope you aren't surprised, but 9,999 out of 10,000 have usually been
    thought of before. Again, contact a direct individual source for
    evaluation. NASA fields thousands of these each day.

    3) Miscellanous queries.

    These are addressed on a case-by-case basis in the following series of
    FAQ postings.


    SUGGESTIONS FOR BETTER NETIQUETTE

    Read news.announce.newusers if you're on Usenet.
    Minimize cross references, [Do you REALLY NEED to?]
    Edit "Subject:" lines, especially if you're taking a tangent.
    Send mail instead, avoid posting follow ups. (1 mail message worth
	100 posts).
    Internet mail readers: send requests to add/drop to SPACE-REQUEST
	not SPACE.
    Read all available articles before posting a follow-up. (Check all
	references.)
    Cut down attributed articles (leave only the points you're
	responding to; remove signatures and headers). Summarize!
    Put a return address in the body (signature) of your message (mail
	or article), state your institution, etc. Don't assume the
	'reply' function of mailers will work.
    Use absolute dates. Post in a timely way. Don't post what everyone
	will get on TV anyway.
    Some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping:
	keep lines under 80 characters for those using ASCII terminals
	(use carriage returns).


    INDEX TO LINKED POSTINGS

    I've attempted to break the postings up into related areas. There isn't
    a keyword index yet; the following lists the major subject areas in each
    posting. Only those containing astronomy-related material are posted to
    sci.astro (indicated by '*' following the posting number).

    #	Contents

    1*	Introduction
	    Suggestions for better netiquette
	    Index to linked postings
	    Notes on addresses, phone numbers, etc.
	    Contributors

    2*	Network resources
	    Overview
	    Mailing lists
	    Periodically updated information
	    Warning about non-public networks

    3*	Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.
	    Introduction
	    Viewing Images
	    Online Archives
		NASA Ames
		NASA Astrophysics Data System
		NASA Jet Propulsion Lab (Mission Information and Images)
		NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
		NASA Spacelink
		National Space Science Data Center
		Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
		Starcat
		Astronomical Databases
		Astronomy Programs
		Orbital Element Sets
		SPACE Digest
	    Landsat & NASA Photos
	    Planetary Maps
	    Cometary Orbits

    4*	Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
	    Computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories
	    Computing planetary positions
	    Computing crater diameters from Earth-impacting asteroids
	    Map projections and spherical trignometry
	    Performing N-body simulations efficiently
	    Interpreting the FITS image format
	    Sky (Unix ephemeris program)
	    Three-dimensional star/galaxy coordinates

    5*	References on specific areas
	    Publishers of space/astronomy material
	    Careers in the space industry
	    DC-X single-stage to orbit (SSTO) program
	    How to name a star after a person
	    LLNL "great exploration"
	    Lunar Prospector
	    Lunar science and activities
	    Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	    Spacecraft models
	    Rocket propulsion
	    Spacecraft design
	    Esoteric propulsion schemes (solar sails, lasers, fusion...)
	    Spy satellites
	    Space shuttle computer systems
	    SETI computation (signal processing)
	    Amateur satellies & weather satellites
	    Tides

    6*	Constants and equations for calculations

    7*	Astronomical Mnemonics

    8	Contacting NASA, ESA, and other space agencies/companies
	    NASA Centers / Arianespace / ESA / NASDA / Soyuzkarta / Space
		Camp / Space Commerce Corporation / Spacehab / SPOT Image
	    Other commercial space businesses

    9	Space shuttle answers, launch schedules, TV coverage
	    Shuttle launchings and landings; schedules and how to see them
	    Why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff?
	    How to receive the NASA TV channel, NASA SELECT
	    Amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions
	    Solid Rocket Booster fuel composition

    10	Planetary probes - Historical Missions
	    US planetary missions
	    Mariner (Venus, Mars, & Mercury flybys and orbiters)
	    Pioneer (Moon, Sun, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn flybys and orbiters)
	    Ranger (Lunar lander and impact missions)
	    Lunar Orbiter (Lunar surface photography)
	    Surveyor (Lunar soft landers)
	    Viking (Mars orbiters and landers)
	    Voyager (Outer planet flybys)
	    Soviet planetary missions
	    Soviet Lunar probes
	    Soviet Venus probes
	    Soviet Mars probes
	    Japanese planetary missions
	    Planetary mission references

    11	Upcoming planetary probes - missions and schedules
	    Cassini
	    Galileo
	    Magellan
	    Mars Observer
	    TOPEX/Poseidon
	    Ulysses
	    Other space science missions
	    Proposed missions

    12	Controversial questions
	    What happened to the Saturn V plans
	    Why data from space missions isn't immediately available
	    Risks of nuclear (RTG) power sources for space probes
	    Impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer
	    How long can a human live unprotected in space
	    How the Challenger astronauts died
	    Using the shuttle beyond Low Earth Orbit
	    The "Face on Mars"

    13	Space activist/interest/research groups and space publications
	    Groups
	    Publications
	    Undocumented Groups

    14	How to become an astronaut

    15	Orbital and Planetary Launch Services


    NOTES ON ADDRESSES, PHONE NUMBERS, ETC.

    Unless otherwise specified, telephone numbers, addresses, and so on are
    for the United States of America. Non-US readers should remember to add
    the country code for telephone calls, etc.


    CREDITS

    Eugene Miya started a series of linked FAQ postings some years ago which
    inspired (and was largely absorbed into) this set.

    Peter Yee and Ron Baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own
    time setting up the SPACE archives at NASA Ames and forwarding official
    NASA announcements.

    Many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of
    old postings to sci.space and sci.astro which I've edited. Please let me
    know if corrections need to be made. Contributors I've managed to keep
    track of are:

    0004847546@mcimail.com (Francis Reddy)	- map projections
    ad038@yfn.ysu.edu (Steven Fisk)		- publication refs.
    akerman@bill.phy.queensu.CA (Richard Akerman)   - crater diameters
    alweigel@athena.mit.edu (Lisa Weigel)	- SEDS info
    aoab314@emx.utexas.edu (Srinivas Bettadpur) - tides
    awpaeth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Alan Wm Paeth) - map projections
    aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)		- Great Exploration
    baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)	- planetary probe schedules
    bankst@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Timothy Banks)	- map projections,
	variable star analysis archive
    bern@uni-trier.de (Jochen Bern)		- German mnemonic translation
    brosen@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Bernie Rosen)	- Space Camp
    bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger)   - FITS format
    cew@venera.isi.edu (Craig E. Ward)		- space group contact info
    chapin@cbnewsc.att.com (Tom Chapin)		- planetary positions
    cunnida@tenet.edu (D. Alan Cunningham)	- NASA Spacelink
    cyamamot@kilroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Cliff Yamamoto) - orbital elements
    datri@convex.com (Anthony Datri)		- PDS/VICAR viewing software
    daver@sjc.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)		- orbit formulae
    dlbres10@pc.usl.edu (Phil Fraering)		- propulsion
    eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)		- Saturn V plans, SRBs
    eugene@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)	- introduction,
	NASA contact info, started FAQ postings
    french@isu.isunet.edu (Patrick M. French)	- space group contact info
    g@telesoft.com (Gary Morris)		- amateur radio info
    gaetz@cfa.harvard.edu (Terry Gaetz)		- N-body calculations,
	orbital dynamics
    grandi@noao.edu (Steve Grandi)		- planetary positions
    greer%utd201.dnet%utadnx@utspan.span.nasa.gov (Dale M. Greer)   - constants
    henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)	- survival in vacuum,
	astronaut how-to, Challenger disaster, publication refs, DC-X
    higgins@fnal.bitnet (William Higgins)	- RTGs, publishers,
	shuttle landings, spysats, propulsion, "Face on Mars"
    hmueller@cssun.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller)	- map projections,
	orbital dynamics
    jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)	- launch services
    jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery)		- propulsion, launch services
    jnhead@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu (James N. Head) - atmospheric scale heights
    jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu (Jim Scotti)	- planetary positions
    kcarroll@zoo.toronto.edu (Kieran A. Carroll)- refs for spacecraft design
    ken@orion.bitnet (Kenneth Ng)		- RTGs
    kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks)	- shuttle roll manuever
    klaes@verga.enet.dec.com (Larry Klaes)	- planetary probe history
    leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)		- crater diameters
    lfa@ssi.com (Lou Adornato)			- orbital dynamics
    maury.markowitz@egsgate.fidonet.org (Maury Markowitz)   - propulsion
    max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)	- equations
    mbellon@mcdurb.Urbana.Gould.COM		- N-body calculations
    mcconley@phoenix.Princeton.edu (Marc Wayne Mcconley)    - space careers
    msb@sq.com (Mark Brader)			- Mariner 1 info.
    mwm@cmu.edu (Mark Maimone)			- SPACE Digest
    nickw@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Dr. Nick Watkins)	- models, spysats
    ohainaut@eso.org (Olivier R. Hainaut)	- publishers, STARCAT
    oneil@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (Graham O'Neil)	- Lunar Prospector
    panama@cup.portal.com (Kenneth W Durham)	- cometary orbits, IAU
    paul.blase@nss.fidonet.org (Paul Blase)	- propulsion
    pjs@plato.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Scott)	- RTGs
    pschleck@unomaha.edu (Paul W. Schleck)	- AMSAT, ARRL contact info
    rdb@mel.cocam.oz.au (Rodney Brown)		- propulsion refs
    rja7m@phil.cs.virginia.edu (Ran Atkinson)	- FTPable astro. programs
    rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com (R. Michael Jungclas)- models
    roelle@sigi.jhuapl.edu (Curt Roelle)	- German mnemonic translation
    seal@leonardo.jpl.nasa.gov (David Seal)	- Cassini mission schedule
    shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)	- photos, shuttle landings
    smith@sndpit.enet.dec.com (Willie Smith)	- photos
    stephen@gpwd.gp.co.nz (Stephen Dixon)	- shuttle audio frequencies
    sterner@warper.jhuapl.edu (Ray Sterner)	- planetary positions
    stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (Phil Stooke)	- planetary maps
    ted_anderson@transarc.com (Ted Anderson)	- propulsion
    terry@astro.as.utexas.edu (Terry Hancock)	- NASA center info
    thorson@typhoon.atmos.coloState.edu (Bill Thorson) - FITS info
    tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd L. Masco)	- SPACE Digest
    tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley)	- refs for algorithms
    veikko.makela@helsinki.fi (Veikko Makela)	- orbital element sets
    Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org (Wales Larrison) - groups & publications
    wayne@csri.utoronto.ca (Wayne Hayes)	- constants
    weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) - Voyager history
    yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp (Yoshiro Yamada)	- ISAS/NASDA missions
    yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Peter Yee)		- AMES archive server,
	propulsion

    In Net memoriam:
	Ted Flinn

NEXT: FAQ #2/15 - Network Resources

after prepro  Subject Space FAQ 0115  Introduction
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195344 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 310

Archivename spaceintro
Lastmodified Date 930401 143910 

    FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON SCISPACESCIASTRO

    INTRODUCTION

    This series of linked messages is periodically posted to the Usenet
groups scispace and sciastro in an attempt to provide good answers to
frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth
preserving If you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked
questions that you would like included in this posting send email to
leechcsuncedu Jon Leech

    If you dont want to see the FAQ add Frequently Asked Questions to
your KILL file for this group if youre not reading this with a newsreader
that can kill articles by subject youre out of luck

    The FAQ volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down
by rewriting and condensing over time The FAQ postings are available in
the Ames SPACE archive in FAQfaq

    Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here The
point of this is to circulate existing information and avoid rehashing old
answers Better to build on top than start again Nothing more depressing
than rehashing old topics for the 100th time References are provided
because they give more complete information than any short generalization

    Questions fall into three basic types

    1 Where do I find some information about space

    Try your local public library first The net is not a good place to ask
    for general information Ask INDIVIDUALS by email if you must There
    are other sources use them too The net is a place for open ended
    discussion

    2 I have an idea which would improve space flight

    Hope you arent surprised but 9999 out of 10000 have usually been
    thought of before Again contact a direct individual source for
    evaluation NASA fields thousands of these each day

    3 Miscellanous queries

    These are addressed on a casebycase basis in the following series of
    FAQ postings


    SUGGESTIONS FOR BETTER NETIQUETTE

    Read newsannouncenewusers if youre on Usenet
    Minimize cross references [Do you REALLY NEED to]
    Edit Subject lines especially if youre taking a tangent
    Send mail instead avoid posting follow ups 1 mail message worth
	100 posts
    Internet mail readers send requests to adddrop to SPACEREQUEST
	not SPACE
    Read all available articles before posting a followup Check all
	references
    Cut down attributed articles leave only the points youre
	responding to remove signatures and headers Summarize
    Put a return address in the body signature of your message mail
	or article state your institution etc Dont assume the
	reply function of mailers will work
    Use absolute dates Post in a timely way Dont post what everyone
	will get on TV anyway
    Some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping
	keep lines under 80 characters for those using ASCII terminals
	use carriage returns


    INDEX TO LINKED POSTINGS

    Ive attempted to break the postings up into related areas There isnt
    a keyword index yet the following lists the major subject areas in each
    posting Only those containing astronomyrelated material are posted to
    sciastro indicated by  following the posting number

    	Contents

    1	Introduction
	    Suggestions for better netiquette
	    Index to linked postings
	    Notes on addresses phone numbers etc
	    Contributors

    2	Network resources
	    Overview
	    Mailing lists
	    Periodically updated information
	    Warning about nonpublic networks

    3	Online and some offline sources of images data etc
	    Introduction
	    Viewing Images
	    Online Archives
		NASA Ames
		NASA Astrophysics Data System
		NASA Jet Propulsion Lab Mission Information and Images
		NASA Langley Technical Reports
		NASA Spacelink
		National Space Science Data Center
		Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info Service
		Starcat
		Astronomical Databases
		Astronomy Programs
		Orbital Element Sets
		SPACE Digest
	    Landsat  NASA Photos
	    Planetary Maps
	    Cometary Orbits

    4	Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
	    Computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories
	    Computing planetary positions
	    Computing crater diameters from Earthimpacting asteroids
	    Map projections and spherical trignometry
	    Performing Nbody simulations efficiently
	    Interpreting the FITS image format
	    Sky Unix ephemeris program
	    Threedimensional stargalaxy coordinates

    5	References on specific areas
	    Publishers of spaceastronomy material
	    Careers in the space industry
	    DCX singlestage to orbit SSTO program
	    How to name a star after a person
	    LLNL great exploration
	    Lunar Prospector
	    Lunar science and activities
	    Orbiting Earth satellite histories
	    Spacecraft models
	    Rocket propulsion
	    Spacecraft design
	    Esoteric propulsion schemes solar sails lasers fusion
	    Spy satellites
	    Space shuttle computer systems
	    SETI computation signal processing
	    Amateur satellies  weather satellites
	    Tides

    6	Constants and equations for calculations

    7	Astronomical Mnemonics

    8	Contacting NASA ESA and other space agenciescompanies
	    NASA Centers  Arianespace  ESA  NASDA  Soyuzkarta  Space
		Camp  Space Commerce Corporation  Spacehab  SPOT Image
	    Other commercial space businesses

    9	Space shuttle answers launch schedules TV coverage
	    Shuttle launchings and landings schedules and how to see them
	    Why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff
	    How to receive the NASA TV channel NASA SELECT
	    Amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions
	    Solid Rocket Booster fuel composition

    10	Planetary probes  Historical Missions
	    US planetary missions
	    Mariner Venus Mars  Mercury flybys and orbiters
	    Pioneer Moon Sun Venus Jupiter and Saturn flybys and orbiters
	    Ranger Lunar lander and impact missions
	    Lunar Orbiter Lunar surface photography
	    Surveyor Lunar soft landers
	    Viking Mars orbiters and landers
	    Voyager Outer planet flybys
	    Soviet planetary missions
	    Soviet Lunar probes
	    Soviet Venus probes
	    Soviet Mars probes
	    Japanese planetary missions
	    Planetary mission references

    11	Upcoming planetary probes  missions and schedules
	    Cassini
	    Galileo
	    Magellan
	    Mars Observer
	    TOPEXPoseidon
	    Ulysses
	    Other space science missions
	    Proposed missions

    12	Controversial questions
	    What happened to the Saturn V plans
	    Why data from space missions isnt immediately available
	    Risks of nuclear RTG power sources for space probes
	    Impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer
	    How long can a human live unprotected in space
	    How the Challenger astronauts died
	    Using the shuttle beyond Low Earth Orbit
	    The Face on Mars

    13	Space activistinterestresearch groups and space publications
	    Groups
	    Publications
	    Undocumented Groups

    14	How to become an astronaut

    15	Orbital and Planetary Launch Services


    NOTES ON ADDRESSES PHONE NUMBERS ETC

    Unless otherwise specified telephone numbers addresses and so on are
    for the United States of America NonUS readers should remember to add
    the country code for telephone calls etc


    CREDITS

    Eugene Miya started a series of linked FAQ postings some years ago which
    inspired and was largely absorbed into this set

    Peter Yee and Ron Baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own
    time setting up the SPACE archives at NASA Ames and forwarding official
    NASA announcements

    Many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of
    old postings to scispace and sciastro which Ive edited Please let me
    know if corrections need to be made Contributors Ive managed to keep
    track of are

    0004847546mcimailcom Francis Reddy	 map projections
    ad038yfnysuedu Steven Fisk		 publication refs
    akermanbillphyqueensuCA Richard Akerman    crater diameters
    alweigelathenamitedu Lisa Weigel	 SEDS info
    aoab314emxutexasedu Srinivas Bettadpur  tides
    awpaethwatcglwaterlooedu Alan Wm Paeth  map projections
    awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer		 Great Exploration
    baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke	 planetary probe schedules
    bankstratavuwacnz Timothy Banks	 map projections
	variable star analysis archive
    bernunitrierde Jochen Bern		 German mnemonic translation
    brosenpioneerarcnasagov Bernie Rosen	 Space Camp
    bschlesingernssdcagsfcnasagov Barry Schlesinger    FITS format
    cewveneraisiedu Craig E Ward		 space group contact info
    chapincbnewscattcom Tom Chapin		 planetary positions
    cunnidatenetedu D Alan Cunningham	 NASA Spacelink
    cyamamotkilroyJplNasaGov Cliff Yamamoto  orbital elements
    datriconvexcom Anthony Datri		 PDSVICAR viewing software
    daversjcmentorgcom Dave Rickel		 orbit formulae
    dlbres10pcusledu Phil Fraering		 propulsion
    ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder		 Saturn V plans SRBs
    eugeneeosarcnasagov Eugene N Miya	 introduction
	NASA contact info started FAQ postings
    frenchisuisunetedu Patrick M French	 space group contact info
    gtelesoftcom Gary Morris		 amateur radio info
    gaetzcfaharvardedu Terry Gaetz		 Nbody calculations
	orbital dynamics
    grandinoaoedu Steve Grandi		 planetary positions
    greerutd201dnetutadnxutspanspannasagov Dale M Greer    constants
    henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer	 survival in vacuum
	astronaut howto Challenger disaster publication refs DCX
    higginsfnalbitnet William Higgins	 RTGs publishers
	shuttle landings spysats propulsion Face on Mars
    hmuellercssuntamuedu Hal Mueller	 map projections
	orbital dynamics
    jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins	 launch services
    jimpnet01ctscom Jim Bowery		 propulsion launch services
    jnheadpirllplarizonaedu James N Head  atmospheric scale heights
    jscottilplarizonaedu Jim Scotti	 planetary positions
    kcarrollzootorontoedu Kieran A Carroll refs for spacecraft design
    kenorionbitnet Kenneth Ng		 RTGs
    kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov Ken Jenks	 shuttle roll manuever
    klaesvergaenetdeccom Larry Klaes	 planetary probe history
    leechcsuncedu Jon Leech		 crater diameters
    lfassicom Lou Adornato			 orbital dynamics
    maurymarkowitzegsgatefidonetorg Maury Markowitz    propulsion
    maxwestdarksidecom Erik Max Francis	 equations
    mbellonmcdurbUrbanaGouldCOM		 Nbody calculations
    mcconleyphoenixPrincetonedu Marc Wayne Mcconley     space careers
    msbsqcom Mark Brader			 Mariner 1 info
    mwmcmuedu Mark Maimone			 SPACE Digest
    nickwsymasussexacuk Dr Nick Watkins	 models spysats
    ohainautesoorg Olivier R Hainaut	 publishers STARCAT
    oneilaiojscnasagov Graham ONeil	 Lunar Prospector
    panamacupportalcom Kenneth W Durham	 cometary orbits IAU
    paulblasenssfidonetorg Paul Blase	 propulsion
    pjsplatojplnasagov Peter Scott	 RTGs
    pschleckunomahaedu Paul W Schleck	 AMSAT ARRL contact info
    rdbmelcocamozau Rodney Brown		 propulsion refs
    rja7mphilcsvirginiaedu Ran Atkinson	 FTPable astro programs
    rjungclaihlpbattcom R Michael Jungclas models
    roellesigijhuapledu Curt Roelle	 German mnemonic translation
    sealleonardojplnasagov David Seal	 Cassini mission schedule
    shaferskipperdfrfnasagov Mary Shafer	 photos shuttle landings
    smithsndpitenetdeccom Willie Smith	 photos
    stephengpwdgpconz Stephen Dixon	 shuttle audio frequencies
    sternerwarperjhuapledu Ray Sterner	 planetary positions
    stookevaxrsscluwoca Phil Stooke	 planetary maps
    ted_andersontransarccom Ted Anderson	 propulsion
    terryastroasutexasedu Terry Hancock	 NASA center info
    thorsontyphoonatmoscoloStateedu Bill Thorson  FITS info
    tm2bandrewcmuedu Todd L Masco	 SPACE Digest
    tomssdcsdharriscom Tom Horsley	 refs for algorithms
    veikkomakelahelsinkifi Veikko Makela	 orbital element sets
    WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg Wales Larrison  groups  publications
    waynecsriutorontoca Wayne Hayes	 constants
    weembalibrawistarupennedu Matthew P Wiener  Voyager history
    yamadayscvaxyscgojp Yoshiro Yamada	 ISASNASDA missions
    yeeamesarcnasagov Peter Yee		 AMES archive server
	propulsion

    In Net memoriam
	Ted Flinn

NEXT FAQ 215  Network Resources

preprocess doc  From: sugarman@ra.cs.umb.edu (Steven R. Garman)
Subject: WANTED - Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra.cs.umb.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston
Lines: 23


[Also posted in misc.forsale.wanted,misc.wanted,ne.wanted,ny.wanted,nj.wanted]

WANTED:  Optical Shaft Encoders

Quantity 2
Single-ended
Incremental

Needed to encode the movements of a 16" Cassegrain telescope.  The telescope
is in the observatory of the Univ. of Mass. at Boston.  The project is being
managed by Mr. George Tucker, a graduate student at UMB.  Please call him, or
email/call me, if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder.  Of
course, due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is
sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders.  :)

George Tucker
617-965-3408

ME:
-- 
sugarman@cs.umb.edu | 6172876077 univ | 6177313637 home | Standard Disclaimer
Boston Massachusetts USA

after prepro  From sugarmanracsumbedu Steven R Garman
Subject WANTED  Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope
NntpPostingHost racsumbedu
Organization University of Massachusetts at Boston
Lines 23


[Also posted in miscforsalewantedmiscwantednewantednywantednjwanted]

WANTED  Optical Shaft Encoders

Quantity 2
Singleended
Incremental

Needed to encode the movements of a 16 Cassegrain telescope  The telescope
is in the observatory of the Univ of Mass at Boston  The project is being
managed by Mr George Tucker a graduate student at UMB  Please call him or
emailcall me if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder  Of
course due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is
sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders  

George Tucker
6179653408

ME
 
sugarmancsumbedu  6172876077 univ  6177313637 home  Standard Disclaimer
Boston Massachusetts USA

preprocess doc  From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Commercial Space News #22
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 666

COMMERCIAL SPACE NEWS/SPACE TECHNOLOGY INVESTOR NUMBER 22

   This is number twenty-two in an irregular series on commercial 
space activities.  The commentaries included are my thoughts on 
these developments.  

   Sigh... as usual, I've gotten behind in getting this column 
written.  I can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in 
the space biz.  This column is put together at lunch hour and after 
the house quiets down at night, so data can quickly build up if 
there's a lot of other stuff going on.  I've complied a lot of 
information and happenings since the last column, so I'm going to 
have to work to keep this one down to a readable length.  Have fun! 

CONTENTS:
1- US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
2- DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
3- COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC "GO-AHEAD"
4- INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GD'S SPACE BIZ "STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT" 
5- ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
7- ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
8- GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
9- SPAIN'S CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
10- PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
11- CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
12- SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
13- SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
FINAL NOTES
  
ARTICLES
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1- US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
   The US Department of Commerce projects US commercial space sales 
will remain flat in 1993, with current data showing only a 2 percent 
growth over 1992.  As published in "US Industrial Outlook 1993" 
(which was released in January), revenues from the 1993 US space 
business are currently projected to be about $4,890 M. 
   In contrast to previous years when US commercial space sales had 
shown double digits growth rates, this year's projected results are 
driven by the US satellite manufacturing industry, where sales are 
projected to drop from 12 satellites worth $1,300 M in 1992 to 7 
satellites worth $ 670 M in 1993.  The US Industrial Outlook also 
projects U.S. commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year, 
and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to 
$450 M, future sales will be "adversely affected by the downward 
revision in Department of Defense launch plans."                           
   Offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries, 
revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to 
increase to $1,900 M, primarily driven by increased revenues from 
broadcast and cable TV networks.  Similarly, remote sensing products 
and sales are projected to increase to $250 M in 1993 (up 15%). 

 US COMMERCIAL SPACE REVENUES     1989  1990   1991 1992(r) 1993(e)
 Commercial satellites             900 1,000  1,100  1,300     670
 Satellite services                750   800  1,200  1,500   1,900
   Fixed                          (700) (735)(1,115)(1,275) (1,520)
   Mobile                          (50) ( 65)(   85)(  225) (  380)
 Satellite ground equip            790   860  1,350  1,400   1,560
   Mobile equipment                (40)  (85)  (280)  (352)    ???
 Commercial launches               150   570    380    450     450
 Remote sensing data and services  125   155    190    215     250
 Private microgravity research lab  --    --     --     --      60
                                 ===== =====  ======  =====   =====
   TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUES         2,715 3,385   4,220  4,815   4,890
        (r) = revised data for 1992   (e) = estimated data for 1993
   [Commentary: This is the first look at how the US commercial 
space industry is expected to do in 1993.  In general, not a bad 
report -- with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite 
manufacturing area.  There, changes of only a few satellites worth 
$100 M or so apiece can substantially influence the annual 
projection.  If we look forward over several years, this market 
sector should retain strong sales as US firms have been very 
successful in regaining international market share in the satellite 
business. 
   Furthermore, sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in 
the next revision of this data, expected to be released about mid-
year.  Data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales (including 
such items as GPS receivers and portable satellite terminals) 
appears to be missing from the January data set.  DoC usually 
publishes a listing of  "Space Business Indicators" in mid-year, and 
the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released 
then.  I expect the revised revenues should easily top $5,000 M, if 
the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the 
numbers, and the year should show about a 10% overall market growth. 
   Looking beyond this year's data, future markets look quite 
promising.  The DoC projects satellite service revenues could top 
$3,000 M by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct 
broadcasting are implemented as planned, and that mobile satellite 
station sales are expected to continue to growth at 15-20 % per year 
through the mid 1990's.  My numbers are somewhat more pessimistic 
for near-term market growth, but I agree the trend should be for 
substantial growth in US commercial space sales over at least the 
next 5-10 years.  (My pessimism is due to more conservative 
assumptions on market capture and growth in LEO communications and 
satellite direct broadcasting services.  I don't believe all of the 
current players in the yet-to-be-born LEO communications satellite 
market and in the yet-to-be-proven direct broadcasting market will 
be financial successes, nor that sales growth will be as explosive 
as currently projected.) 
   It should also be noted this year's DoC data is the first 
release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research 
facilities.  The $60 M shown in the Janurary data is primarily for 
the Spacehab module, planned for launch in April on the Space 
Shuttle, but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first 
sales from the COMET orbital launch and recovery experiment module.] 

2- DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
   McDonnell Douglas Corporation, which builds and markets the Delta 
launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts.  Motorola 
Inc. announced in mid February that it had selected the Delta to 
launch most of the satellites in the 66-satellite Iridium LEO 
communications constellation, and in mid April, McDonnell Douglas 
was awarded the USAF Medium Launch Vehicle III contract. 
   The launch services contract with Motorola for the Iridium 
constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 Iridium 
satellites.  Another 21 satellites have been contracted to be 
launched by Khrunichev Enterprise in Russian on 3 Proton vehicle 
launches.  These 45 satellites planned for the Delta will be 
launched 5 at a time,  providing for at least 9 launches.  
Additional satellites in the Iridium constellation, such as a 
planned on-orbit spares, may also be launched on Delta.  Although 
details of the launch services contract were reported to be 
negotiation, and not yet final. 
   The USAF MLV contract also went to MDC, bidding a variant of 
their Delta II launcher.  This contract is only initially worth $7.5 
million, but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36 
launches, encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002.  These 
launches will deploy the next generation of the USAF's Global 
Positioning System Block IIR navigation satellites, plus other 
programs.  First option for to meet the USAF launch options is 
expected to be exercised this year, after which the USAF is expected 
to request launches of up to 6 Deltas per year for at least 6 years.  
Under this contract the USAF can also request "launch on demand" 
services from MDC for the 1996-2002 time period, with a launch to 
occur within 40 days of the request. 
    [Commentary:  If these two contracts are fulfilled, they should 
provide an excellent business base for MDC's Delta launch program 
through the turn of the century.  Combined, these two contracts have 
a potential for about 45 launches, worth about $2,200 M to MDC, and 
sustaining a core business base of $300-400 M/year.  Other contracts 
for international and commercial payloads, as well as for NASA 
Medium ELV-class payloads, will add to this business base -- keeping 
MDC as a viable commerical launch company. 
    However, it should be noted there are risk elements in these 
contracts.  Motorola's Iridium LEO communications constellation has 
not yet received a US Federal Communications Commission license for 
operation in the U.S., nor has Motorola lined up all the financing 
and financial partners for the Iridium venture.  Without these 
approvals or financial backing there will be no Iridium launches.  
But, hopefully, these uncertainties will be settled this year. 
   Similarly, the USAF MLV III program has been the target of 
several Congressional actions which have slowed the production of 
the GPS Block IIR satellites and deleted the funding for the MLV III 
program in favor of the USAF NLS/"Spacelifter" program.  At this 
time, while it appears the MLV III contract will be executed, future 
funding for the MLV III and other USAF commercial launch contracts 
is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy 
reviews.  Some opinions expressed from within the Administration and 
Congress propose cancellation of all "ELV upgrade" programs 
(including the MLV programs) in favor of the proposed "Spacelifter" 
program.  Such opinions may have some weight in this year's budget 
deliberations, particularly as DoD funds will be more difficult to 
find in the shrinking US Defense budget.] 
 
3- COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC "GO-AHEAD"
   The first commercial license to operate a remote sensing 
satellite was approved in early February by the US Department of 
Commerce's Office of Space Commerce.  A license was granted to 
WorldView Imaging Corporation of Oakland, California to build and 
operate a pair of LEO imaging satellites to provide multi-spectral 
images of the Earth. 
   [Commentary:  There has been little data released on this venture 
by WorldView and the DoC, other than the announcement of the 
operating and construction license.  This was reported to be at the 
request of WorldView.  Most industry speculation identifies this new 
venture as a "Star Wars" spinoff, using SDI-type technology to 
provide digital Earth sensing data, and heavily integrated into 
digital GIS databases for remote sensing/GIS users.  Most probable 
customers for this service include exploration geologists, 
agricultural planners, and urban planners.  
   It is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the 
1992 Land Remote Sensing Policy Act.  The Act, as passed last 
November, provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote 
sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices.  Prior to 
this act, remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to 
all users at the same prices, and private remote sensing ventures 
would have had to sell at the government-set Landsat data prices. 
   There are rumors of several other potential commercial remote 
sensing ventures working their way through the system at different 
stages of development.  I think the large Landsat and SPOT satellite 
systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing 
data market for the next decade or so.  In contrast to these large, 
government-sponsored remote sensing systems, smaller market ventures 
such as WorldView and others can exploit market niches and use 
innovative technology, and I believe, can find profitability on the 
margin.  I predict there may be some very interesting ventures 
appearing in the next year or so.] 
                 
4- INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GD'S SPACE BIZ "STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT" 
   Wall Street investment house Morgan Stanley thinks General 
Dynamic's Space Systems Division could still be a moneymaker, 
despite having failed in the last 3 Atlas launches.  In a recent 
analyst's report Morgan Stanley said "We are more than ever 
convinced that if the company can return the Atlas to its historical 
95%-plus success rate, this will become a highly profitable, cash-
generating unit."  Based upon discussions with GD's corporate 
management, Morgan Stanley projects that if the Atlas problems are 
cleared up the unit could see $70 M in earnings per year by 1995 and 
$100 M per year by 2000.  This is based upon GD's projection of 
capturing about 10 Atlas launches per year on the world market. 
   [Commentary:  Three failures in a row of their launch system has 
hurt General Dynamic's Space Systems Division.  Since GD has 
restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses, 
many market pundits have been speculating GD's space business might 
be next to be sold.  The Morgan Stanley report indicates GD's Space 
Systems Division has some potential as a moneymaker, despite current 
problems -- if they can get their act together.  Sales are projected 
to be about $560 M in 1993, which will probably generate a loss of 
about $25 M.  If GD can capture their projected share of the space 
launch market, and if they have managed to clean up the reliability 
of their Atlas launchers, then they could generate healthy profits 
from those sales.  But until they demonstrate the Atlas Centaur 
program is back on track, this division will continue to show 
substantial losses. 
   In response to the sell-off rumors, in my opinion, this operation 
is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability.  
To do such a takeover, the current set corporate and divisional 
management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm.  
In GD SSD's case, to get the division back on track, the management 
team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with 
the Atlas Centaur, as well as in selling Atlas services.  This would 
indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch 
operations could find such talent in-house, and be able to convince 
customers to buy their launch services.  Optimally, the firm would 
have substantial liquid rocket experience, and experience in 
marketing space technology internationally as well.  Candidates for 
this might be TRW, Rockwell, Lockheed, and Martin, and possibly 
McDonnell Douglas and Boeing.  But most of those firms have cash 
flow problems (MDC), have had a substantial business contraction 
(Boeing and MDC), are involved with other launch firms (Lockheed), 
or have taken on substantial debt (Martin).  And coming up with the 
$700-1500 M purchase price for the division is a big chunk of 
change for any company.] 
 
5 - ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
   Arianespace, the operator of the Ariane launch system, is 
projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990's.  In early 
February, Arianespace released their annual market survey, which 
detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the 
next decade. 
   Over short run, Arianespace expects to retain their dominant 
position and sustain a majority share of the launch market.  Of 54 
international and commercial launches planned through 1995, Ariane 
holds contracts for 31, General Dynamics' Atlas vehicle holds 14 
contracts, McDonnell Douglas' Delta holds 7, and Great Wall's Long 
March vehicle holds 2 launch contracts. 
   Three-quarters of future launch contracts for which Ariane can 
compete are projected to come from communications satellites with 
the remaining 25% split between weather, Earth observation, and 
scientific satellites.  Most of the future telecommunications demand 
growth is predicted to come from the Asia/Pacific region. 
   Arianespace expects the current market consolidation of 
individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will 
continue, with these groups investing in heavier satellites with 
larger communications payloads carrying more transponders. 
Arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications 
satellites should increase by 20 % over today's average level, to 
about 3000 kg in GEO. 
   Demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain 
strong over the next three years, but in the second half of the 
decade, Arianespace predicts demand will decrease.  Arianespace 
bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder 
demand and supply,  particularly as new data compression techniques 
appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing 
or near-term transponders. 
   One of the significant possible changes in the market was 
identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles, including Russian 
launch systems.  But Arianespace predicts that in the long term, 
investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade 
off between launch service quality and price, and that Russian and 
other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities 
and service quality, and their market penetration will be minimal. 
   [Commentary:  Ariane releases their market surveys annually, and 
I reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of CSN/STI.  
Comparing the two surveys, there aren't outstanding differences in 
the numbers.   The most notable change is the consideration of new 
data compression techniques, reducing the demand for new physical 
transponders on orbit.
   I note that in contrast to some predictions, demand for space-
based communications transponders appears to be remain strong. While 
fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the 
established point-to-point telecommunications markets, growing 
demand for telecommunications services world wide and for point-to-
multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space 
transponder demand.  Fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability 
service, but only from established point A to established point B. 
To establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable 
between the points, and while there are improved network solutions, 
installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost 
millions or billions of dollars.  
   For broadcast services where there is not an existing ground 
network structure, satellites still offer the most cost effective 
solution.  And if new services are required into a new region, it is 
cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of 
thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite 
network.  This allows rapid growth of new satellite services, and 
has kept demand high.  The replacement market for fiberoptics is 
growing as well, since as demand grows between the points serviced, 
it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to 
handle the increase in traffic. 
   Since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still 
growing rapidly, satellite market projections remain rosy.  But 
satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes.  Current 
generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of 
on-orbit service or more, in contrast to 10 years of service from 
last generation's satellites.  This has cut back some of the launch 
demand, as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite 
launches over longer intervals. 
   And as last note; Arianespace didn't flag it this year, but it 
looks like the space transportation market will be rather over-
supplied by existing launch systems in the near term.  The annual 
commercial launch demand is for about 15-20 medium sized satellites 
per year.  From the supply side, Ariane is capable of launching up 
to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year, Delta is capable of 
about 9-12 per year, Atlas is capable of 6-12, Long March 4-8, 
Japan's H-Vehicle 2-4, Russia's Proton capable of 8, and other 
systems such as Zenit and Soyuz another 10-20 medium launches per 
year.  That's a lot of capability for a small market. 
   We can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial 
launches.]

6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT 
   The 9 Feb Pegasus launch by Orbital Sciences Corporation has 
spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety 
rules.  A valid abort order from a NASA range safety officer to halt 
the mission was overridden and the Pegasus was launched in violation 
of range safety rules.  
   In the last few minutes of the Pegasus launch countdown, one of 
two abort command receivers aboard the Pegasus failed.  Such a failure 
typically scrubs a launch,and a NASA range safety officer at 
Wallops Island, VA issued a mission abort order about a minute 
before the scheduled Pegasus launch.  Somehow this command was 
overridden by the OSC launch team or the message was lost in the 
communications channels, and the Pegasus was launched despite the 
valid abort call. 
   Fortunately, the Pegasus functioned as expected, and the abort 
command receiver was not needed.  But this incident did spark an 
investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreed-to 
launch constraint rules, and was not obeyed. 
   Leading the investigation is the National Transportation Safety 
Board (NTSB) with support from NASA, OSC, and the Air Force.  This 
investigation marks the first time NTSB has taken the lead on an 
incident involving a space launch.  According to the NTSB, their 
investigation will take about 6 months, and is primarily looking at 
lines of authority, communications links and safety procedures used 
in the launch. 
  [Commentary: This is the first time that the NTSB has led an 
investigation into a space launch.  Their leadership was requested 
by the Department of Commerce's Office of Commercial Space 
Transportation, who had licensed the commercial launch.  
   At the time of writing this column, some of the initial 
investigations have been concluded, and some of the results are 
starting to leak out into the trade press.  Apparently, 3 or four 
different communications channels were in use during the test. After 
the abort destruct receiver stopped responding, the NASA test 
director and range controller in the Mission Control room at Wallops 
Island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch.  
According to the mission rules, this should have stopped the launch. 
Somehow, the OSC test conductor ordered the abort reversed, and the 
NASA communicator on the net relayed that order to the B-52 carrying 
the Pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch.  Differing 
explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed -- with the 
best set being that clear lines of communications and clear 
definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team, and 
understanding of the mission rules were not established before the 
launch.  
   As we see more and more commercial launches, more of these 
procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved.   
This case is interesting because it is the first time the NTSB has 
been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem (as they 
do with commercial aircraft problems).  
   I think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with 
procedures and communications, and will be cleared up with issuance 
of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how 
specific lines of authority should be delineated.] 

7- ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
   Tsniimach Enterprise in Russia announced it is marketing a new 
small space launch system, based upon converted ICBM components.  
Two versions of the launcher are being marketed: the "Aerokosmos" 
winged vehicle launched like the OSC Pegasus, and the "Severkosmos", 
launched from a mobile ground transporter.  The Aerokosmos is 
projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to 
an 800 km circular orbit, and the Severkosmos to be capable of 430 
kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km.  Also proposed to be used 
with these launch systems is a LEO data relay system called 
'Sineva'.  Tsniimach Enterprise is described as a ex-military 
establishment, focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of 
spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the 
Buran shuttle system,  They are located near the NPO Energia 
facility in Kaliningrad, outside of Moscow. 
   [Commentary: There's very little released information on this new 
venture.  My suspicion is it is another Russian enterprise looking 
for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their in-house 
knowledge of ex-Soviet launch systems.  It adds to the list of numerous 
commercial space startups announced from the ex-Soviet Union. 
   This one's a little different in that they are offering variants 
of ex-Soviet ICBMs, but I can't identify any key customers being 
targeted or substantial financial backing.]

8- GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
   In late January, Georgia Tech Research Institute released the 
results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial 
rocket launching site in Camden County, Georgia at the old Kingsland 
Missile Test Launching Site on the Atlantic coast.  The preliminary 
study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch 
site, stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected 
low investment returns, plus environmental and other geographic 
considerations.  However, the report did say the site might be ideal 
for other aerospace uses, and recommended other potential uses. 
   [Commentary:  This should put the nails in the coffin of the 
Kingsland Commercial Launch Site.  While other sites are still 
proceeding with commercial launch site development plans, Kingsland 
found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant, and if 
substantial infrastructure had to be put in, then the expected 
returns were too low to justify the cost of development.  
   This might point out some key discriminators in judging the 
feasibility of a commercial launch site.  These include:
  - Is there an identified key customer to provide core usage 
sufficient to recover setup costs?
  - Is there a market advantage of using the site?
  - Can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site?
  - Can financing be found at low enough cost to support the 
investment?  
   Other commercial launch site ventures -- including those at 
Woomera, Poker Flat, Cape York, White Sands, Alabama Off-Shore 
Platform, Hawaii, and Vandenberg have to also be judged against 
these criteria.  In my opinion, some of these ventures are flying 
on hope and speculation, and not on sound financial grounds.]

9- SPAIN'S CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
   In one of his last official acts, former President Bush 
authorized space technology transfer for several joint space 
ventures between US and other firms.  One of these was a proposed 
use of US technology by Spain to build a small booster.  With that 
regulatory impediment removed, the 3-stage Capricornia launch 
vehicle will start development later this year, planning for a first 
launch in the 1995/96 time period.  The Capricornia is described as 
a small 3-stage all solid booster designed to put 250-500 Kg into 
LEO.  Several launch sites are being examined for the system, 
including 2 on the Iberian peninsula and 1 on the Canary Islands.  
Originated by INTA in Spain, the project reports it has $ 30 M in 
development funding, and will use technology from Argentina's Condor 
launch vehicle as well as from the US. 
   [Commentary:  Several firms have identified a market opportunity 
in providing a small launcher for the European market.  Small 
payloads from European firms or organizations currently use either 
Ariane piggyback launches or the US/Italian Scout launcher.  
However, Ariane piggyback opportunities are limited, and the Scout 
program is being phased out (accompanied by some disarray in the 
Italian government and space industry regarding any follow-on 
system).  
   This has left an apparent niche for a new European small launch 
system.  Surprisingly enough, ESA has not supported development of 
such a system within the current space funding structure.  Studies 
have been performed by British Aerospace, Aerospatiale, Deutsche 
Aerospace, and Italian organizations, but with the exception of the 
Swedish/PacAstro system (reported below), I have not been able to 
find any other European development work with even a rumor of 
funding for hardware. 
   Also of interest is the linking of the Capricornia to the 
Argentinian Condor launcher.  There have been some interesting 
rumors surfacing out of Argentina over the past year about a space 
launcher/IRBM program funded under the military junta which ruled 
the country in the 1970's and early 1980's. 
   What is known is in Feb 1992, the Argentinian Air Force formally 
transferred control of the Condor 2 missile program to the new 
civilian Argentinian national space agency (Comison Nacional de 
Atividades Espaciales - CNAE).  The Condor 2 program was described 
as originating in 1983, expanding upon the smaller Condor 1 rocket 
program in collaboration with Egypt and with support of German 
firms.  The Condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by Iraq 
in the mid-1980's.  Fairly large solid rocket motors were built and 
tested, but Argentinan development of a suitable guidance package 
lagged that of the propulsion system. 
   It should be noted CNAE is planning to launch its first 
scientific satellite in late 1994.  The US$ 9 M, 181 Kg, SAC-B 
satellite will study the Earth's upper atmosphere and includes 
cooperative experiments from Italy and the US. No launch vehicle has 
yet been selected, but OSC's Pegasus and the Russian Burlak Air 
launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this 
contract.] 

10- PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
   PacAstro, a small launch firm in Herndon, Virginia announced in 
late February it had received a $6 M launch reservation contract 
from the Swedish Space Corp to launch a satellite on PacAstro's PA-2 
launch vehicle.   This will be performed as part of the Polar 
Satellite Service (PSS), a joint Norwegian Space Center/ Swedish 
Space Corp. program to upgrade the Andoya Rocket Range in Norway and 
offering small satellite launches into the polar regions.  According 
to PacAstro, PSS is also performing an $8 M upgrade of the Andoya 
launch facilities, including a new integration facility and a fully-
enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like 
the PacAstro PA-2.  PacAstro has been chosen as "the main 
alternative rocket supplier" for the small satellite launch service 
to be offered by PSS from Andoya.  The date of the launch of the 
Swedish satellite was not specified. 
   [Commentary:  PacAstro has been trying to line up customers and 
funding for their launch vehicle for some time now.  The PA-2 is a 
small, two stage rocket fueled by RP-1 and Liquid Oxygen.  From 
PacAstro's literature, the engines designed for the PA-series 
rockets are built of "off the shelf" components based upon the Lunar 
MOdule Descent Engines built by TRW, and are capable of putting a 
225 Kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit.  
   PacAstro is trying to arrange construction financing for its 
first three PA-2 vehicles, with a first launch planned for 1995, and 
2 orbital launches planned for 1996.  My records show PacAstro hired 
TRW to provide marketing support and systems design,  with primary 
engineering to be done by AeroAstro, a small satellite builder 
closely associated with PacAstro (headquartered in the same 
building).  The Swedish Space Corporation would supply engineering, 
launch operations, vehicle subsystems, and marketing support. 
Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo, is a first round investor and sits on the 
board of directors.  
   PacAstro has gotten a first round financial package of at least 
$550 K  (Some sources place this of high as $1 M), but has been 
searching for about a year for the additional $20-30 M needed to 
design, build and launch their first set of vehicles. 
   The launch reservation from SSC can possibly be used to help 
bring some investors on board, but by my estimate, they will need 
much more than the single $6 M sale to put their venture into real 
hardware.] 

11- CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
    In early March, it was reported a joint satellite communications 
venture between a Taiwanese and mainland Chinese was in the works.  
As reported in the Taipei press, China Development Corp. (CDC), 
headquartered in Taiwam and with links to the ruling Nationalist 
Party, is planning to set up a joint venture in Hong Kong with China 
Great Wall Industry Corp. with the objective of launching a regional 
communications satellite. CDC would cover about 10% of the satellite 
system cost (US $10 M) in exchange for rights to 10% of the 
satellite's communications channels.  
   [Commentary:  This announcement came close on the heels of the 
release of Taiwanese plans for space development (released in mid 
January).   In those plans, the National Space Program Office of 
Taiwan will launch 3 satellites, starting with ROCSAT-1, a 400 Kg 
scientific spacecraft, planned for launch in 1997.  Two additional 
satellites are planned, both communications satellites.   TRW has 
been helping Taiwan plan this program, budgeted at T$13.6 B (US $530 
M) through 2006.  
   I haven't been able to establish any relationship between this 
venture and those of the NSPOT, but there might be a connection.  
While Taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures, the 
current Taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two 
separate sastellite ventures. 
   The reported name for the Tiawanese/Chinese system is "Asiasat-
2", but I don't thinks this has any relationship with the existing 
Hong Kong-based "Asiasat" program involving Chinese, Hong Kong, and 
other Asian investors, other than using it as an organizational 
model.  There are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing 
venture -- it could provide excellent first-hand experience to 
Taiwan for a very low cost, which then can be used in later 
satellite ventures.  But there are internal political issues between 
Taiwanese and Chinese ventures, but putting any joint venture 
through a  Hong Kong intermediary corporation might allow it to 
proceed. 
   In any case, the East Asian satellite market is lighting up with 
substantially growth projected in space services and revenues.  This 
is just another indicator to add to the list.] 

12- SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
   South Korea's Trade, Industry and Resources Ministry recently 
announced plans to invest US$22 B in research and development and 
another US$17 B into manufacturing and research facilities for 
advanced aerospace technologies.  Space technologies have been 
specifically targeted as part of this program, beginning with 
manufacture and launch of an advanced multi-purpose satellite by 
1997.  The objective of this investment is to raise South Korea's 
aerospace technology to the level of the world's top 10 countries by 
2000.                                 
   [Commentary: South Korea has been quietly working to develop its 
national aerospace industry, specifically including space 
activities. I'm noting this as a flag that potential new players are 
coming into the commercial space market. 
   As part of their national effort, 2 national telecommunications 
satellites for Korea Telecom will be launched in April and Oct 1995 
on Delta. Designated Koreasat 1 and 2, the platforms will provide 
television and telephone service throughout the Korean Peninsula, 
southwestern Japan and portions of China bordering North Korea. 
   South Korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on 
Ariane in Aug 1992, called Uribyol-1 (Our Star) and costing about US 
$8.8 M.  Uribyol-2 is planned for piggyback launch in October of 
this year, again on Ariane, and will be entirely "made in Korea."  
Uribyol-3, projected for a 1995 launch, will be an environment-
monitoring micro-satellite. 
   This satellite may be the precursor to a series of small Earth 
observation satellites,  The KEOS (Korean Earth Observation System) 
project, which has been submitted for approval to the South Korean 
government, would use two or three 300-kg spacecraft equipped with 
optical and microwave sensors.
   South Korean press reports claim there is also a parallel 
military effort to establish the capabilities for building and 
launching small military satellites by 2001.  Supposedly a 
government panel had been established to oversee such an effort, 
funded at US $ 500 M between 1993 and 2001, in anticipation of an  
expected pullout of U.S. intelligence-gathering systems from the 
Korean peninsula.       
   In conjunction with all of these reported efforts, South Korean 
is also pursuing production work either as off-sets to existing 
aerospace technology contracts (for example, McDonnell Douglas is 
offsetting production of some Delta parts to South Korean firms as 
part of the Koreasat launch contracts), or for production of 
consumer space items (among other products, South Korea exports 
satellite receiver television setups to Japan, and Samsung has 
announced teaming for production of OSC's Orbcomm user terminals.).  
   This looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies.  
Considering that East Asia is currently the fastest growing sector 
for commercial space services (primarily for telecommunications), a 
South Korean push into space technologies may change the composition 
of commercial space market there over the next decade.] 

13- SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
   As announced in the last CSN/STI, each issue will give the 
results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and 
investments.  The table below summarizes results to the end of 
March.  The Space Technology Index did quite a bit better than the 
market as a whole, as represented by the S&P 500 index.  Since 90+% 
of the values included in the index are US firms, this represents a 
general increase in the market value of space-related firms.  The 
increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992 -- which 
is a very promising sign, although future months may reverse this 
trend. The Commercial Space Technology Index has also done quite 
well, but the Pure Play portfolio -- consisting of stocks of firms 
which are pure plays in space technologies -- has also surpassed its 
results in all of 1993.  We'll keep an eye on these ....

   INDEX RESULTS THROUGH MARCH
                           Beginning  Beginning      1 Jan 93 to
                           1992       1993           31 Mar 1993
                           -------    --------       --------
   S&P 500                 416        436  (+4.7%)   452  (+3.7%)
   Space Tech Index        267        304 (+13.6%)   373 (+22.7%)
   Comm'l Space Tech Index 167        194 (+16.3%)   222 (+14.2%)
   Space Tech Pure Plays   147        169 (+15.4%)   197 (+16.2%)


FINAL NOTES - 
    What?  This column's already full?  And I still have bunches of 
commercial space developments to report on.  As I said at the start 
of this, column there's been a lot of interesting happenings - but 
I'll have to put them into the next issue.  
   Looking ahead, I've got several articles in the works on new 
happenings with Iridium and the LEO communications satellite market, 
more news on international launchers appearing (and disappearing) on 
the market, new international commercial space ventures,  and other 
interesting developments. 
   And as always, I hope you folks find this stuff useful and 
interesting -- Any and all comments are welcome. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wales Larrison                          Space Technology Investor  
"Felicitas multos habet amicos"             P.O. Box 2452 
                                        Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452

after prepro  From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Commercial Space News 22
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 666

COMMERCIAL SPACE NEWSSPACE TECHNOLOGY INVESTOR NUMBER 22

   This is number twentytwo in an irregular series on commercial 
space activities  The commentaries included are my thoughts on 
these developments  

   Sigh as usual Ive gotten behind in getting this column 
written  I can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in 
the space biz  This column is put together at lunch hour and after 
the house quiets down at night so data can quickly build up if 
theres a lot of other stuff going on  Ive complied a lot of 
information and happenings since the last column so Im going to 
have to work to keep this one down to a readable length  Have fun 

CONTENTS
1 US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
2 DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
3 COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC GOAHEAD
4 INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GDS SPACE BIZ STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT 
5 ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
6 NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
7 ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
8 GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
9 SPAINS CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
10 PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
11 CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
12 SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
13 SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
FINAL NOTES
  
ARTICLES

1 US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
   The US Department of Commerce projects US commercial space sales 
will remain flat in 1993 with current data showing only a 2 percent 
growth over 1992  As published in US Industrial Outlook 1993 
which was released in January revenues from the 1993 US space 
business are currently projected to be about 4890 M 
   In contrast to previous years when US commercial space sales had 
shown double digits growth rates this years projected results are 
driven by the US satellite manufacturing industry where sales are 
projected to drop from 12 satellites worth 1300 M in 1992 to 7 
satellites worth  670 M in 1993  The US Industrial Outlook also 
projects US commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year 
and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to 
450 M future sales will be adversely affected by the downward 
revision in Department of Defense launch plans                           
   Offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries 
revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to 
increase to 1900 M primarily driven by increased revenues from 
broadcast and cable TV networks  Similarly remote sensing products 
and sales are projected to increase to 250 M in 1993 up 15 

 US COMMERCIAL SPACE REVENUES     1989  1990   1991 1992r 1993e
 Commercial satellites             900 1000  1100  1300     670
 Satellite services                750   800  1200  1500   1900
   Fixed                          700 73511151275 1520
   Mobile                          50  65   85  225   380
 Satellite ground equip            790   860  1350  1400   1560
   Mobile equipment                40  85  280  352    
 Commercial launches               150   570    380    450     450
 Remote sensing data and services  125   155    190    215     250
 Private microgravity research lab                      60
                                         
   TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUES         2715 3385   4220  4815   4890
        r  revised data for 1992   e  estimated data for 1993
   [Commentary This is the first look at how the US commercial 
space industry is expected to do in 1993  In general not a bad 
report  with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite 
manufacturing area  There changes of only a few satellites worth 
100 M or so apiece can substantially influence the annual 
projection  If we look forward over several years this market 
sector should retain strong sales as US firms have been very 
successful in regaining international market share in the satellite 
business 
   Furthermore sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in 
the next revision of this data expected to be released about mid
year  Data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales including 
such items as GPS receivers and portable satellite terminals 
appears to be missing from the January data set  DoC usually 
publishes a listing of  Space Business Indicators in midyear and 
the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released 
then  I expect the revised revenues should easily top 5000 M if 
the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the 
numbers and the year should show about a 10 overall market growth 
   Looking beyond this years data future markets look quite 
promising  The DoC projects satellite service revenues could top 
3000 M by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct 
broadcasting are implemented as planned and that mobile satellite 
station sales are expected to continue to growth at 1520  per year 
through the mid 1990s  My numbers are somewhat more pessimistic 
for nearterm market growth but I agree the trend should be for 
substantial growth in US commercial space sales over at least the 
next 510 years  My pessimism is due to more conservative 
assumptions on market capture and growth in LEO communications and 
satellite direct broadcasting services  I dont believe all of the 
current players in the yettobeborn LEO communications satellite 
market and in the yettobeproven direct broadcasting market will 
be financial successes nor that sales growth will be as explosive 
as currently projected 
   It should also be noted this years DoC data is the first 
release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research 
facilities  The 60 M shown in the Janurary data is primarily for 
the Spacehab module planned for launch in April on the Space 
Shuttle but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first 
sales from the COMET orbital launch and recovery experiment module] 

2 DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
   McDonnell Douglas Corporation which builds and markets the Delta 
launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts  Motorola 
Inc announced in mid February that it had selected the Delta to 
launch most of the satellites in the 66satellite Iridium LEO 
communications constellation and in mid April McDonnell Douglas 
was awarded the USAF Medium Launch Vehicle III contract 
   The launch services contract with Motorola for the Iridium 
constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 Iridium 
satellites  Another 21 satellites have been contracted to be 
launched by Khrunichev Enterprise in Russian on 3 Proton vehicle 
launches  These 45 satellites planned for the Delta will be 
launched 5 at a time  providing for at least 9 launches  
Additional satellites in the Iridium constellation such as a 
planned onorbit spares may also be launched on Delta  Although 
details of the launch services contract were reported to be 
negotiation and not yet final 
   The USAF MLV contract also went to MDC bidding a variant of 
their Delta II launcher  This contract is only initially worth 75 
million but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36 
launches encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002  These 
launches will deploy the next generation of the USAFs Global 
Positioning System Block IIR navigation satellites plus other 
programs  First option for to meet the USAF launch options is 
expected to be exercised this year after which the USAF is expected 
to request launches of up to 6 Deltas per year for at least 6 years  
Under this contract the USAF can also request launch on demand 
services from MDC for the 19962002 time period with a launch to 
occur within 40 days of the request 
    [Commentary  If these two contracts are fulfilled they should 
provide an excellent business base for MDCs Delta launch program 
through the turn of the century  Combined these two contracts have 
a potential for about 45 launches worth about 2200 M to MDC and 
sustaining a core business base of 300400 Myear  Other contracts 
for international and commercial payloads as well as for NASA 
Medium ELVclass payloads will add to this business base  keeping 
MDC as a viable commerical launch company 
    However it should be noted there are risk elements in these 
contracts  Motorolas Iridium LEO communications constellation has 
not yet received a US Federal Communications Commission license for 
operation in the US nor has Motorola lined up all the financing 
and financial partners for the Iridium venture  Without these 
approvals or financial backing there will be no Iridium launches  
But hopefully these uncertainties will be settled this year 
   Similarly the USAF MLV III program has been the target of 
several Congressional actions which have slowed the production of 
the GPS Block IIR satellites and deleted the funding for the MLV III 
program in favor of the USAF NLSSpacelifter program  At this 
time while it appears the MLV III contract will be executed future 
funding for the MLV III and other USAF commercial launch contracts 
is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy 
reviews  Some opinions expressed from within the Administration and 
Congress propose cancellation of all ELV upgrade programs 
including the MLV programs in favor of the proposed Spacelifter 
program  Such opinions may have some weight in this years budget 
deliberations particularly as DoD funds will be more difficult to 
find in the shrinking US Defense budget] 
 
3 COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC GOAHEAD
   The first commercial license to operate a remote sensing 
satellite was approved in early February by the US Department of 
Commerces Office of Space Commerce  A license was granted to 
WorldView Imaging Corporation of Oakland California to build and 
operate a pair of LEO imaging satellites to provide multispectral 
images of the Earth 
   [Commentary  There has been little data released on this venture 
by WorldView and the DoC other than the announcement of the 
operating and construction license  This was reported to be at the 
request of WorldView  Most industry speculation identifies this new 
venture as a Star Wars spinoff using SDItype technology to 
provide digital Earth sensing data and heavily integrated into 
digital GIS databases for remote sensingGIS users  Most probable 
customers for this service include exploration geologists 
agricultural planners and urban planners  
   It is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the 
1992 Land Remote Sensing Policy Act  The Act as passed last 
November provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote 
sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices  Prior to 
this act remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to 
all users at the same prices and private remote sensing ventures 
would have had to sell at the governmentset Landsat data prices 
   There are rumors of several other potential commercial remote 
sensing ventures working their way through the system at different 
stages of development  I think the large Landsat and SPOT satellite 
systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing 
data market for the next decade or so  In contrast to these large 
governmentsponsored remote sensing systems smaller market ventures 
such as WorldView and others can exploit market niches and use 
innovative technology and I believe can find profitability on the 
margin  I predict there may be some very interesting ventures 
appearing in the next year or so] 
                 
4 INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GDS SPACE BIZ STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT 
   Wall Street investment house Morgan Stanley thinks General 
Dynamics Space Systems Division could still be a moneymaker 
despite having failed in the last 3 Atlas launches  In a recent 
analysts report Morgan Stanley said We are more than ever 
convinced that if the company can return the Atlas to its historical 
95plus success rate this will become a highly profitable cash
generating unit  Based upon discussions with GDs corporate 
management Morgan Stanley projects that if the Atlas problems are 
cleared up the unit could see 70 M in earnings per year by 1995 and 
100 M per year by 2000  This is based upon GDs projection of 
capturing about 10 Atlas launches per year on the world market 
   [Commentary  Three failures in a row of their launch system has 
hurt General Dynamics Space Systems Division  Since GD has 
restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses 
many market pundits have been speculating GDs space business might 
be next to be sold  The Morgan Stanley report indicates GDs Space 
Systems Division has some potential as a moneymaker despite current 
problems  if they can get their act together  Sales are projected 
to be about 560 M in 1993 which will probably generate a loss of 
about 25 M  If GD can capture their projected share of the space 
launch market and if they have managed to clean up the reliability 
of their Atlas launchers then they could generate healthy profits 
from those sales  But until they demonstrate the Atlas Centaur 
program is back on track this division will continue to show 
substantial losses 
   In response to the selloff rumors in my opinion this operation 
is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability  
To do such a takeover the current set corporate and divisional 
management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm  
In GD SSDs case to get the division back on track the management 
team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with 
the Atlas Centaur as well as in selling Atlas services  This would 
indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch 
operations could find such talent inhouse and be able to convince 
customers to buy their launch services  Optimally the firm would 
have substantial liquid rocket experience and experience in 
marketing space technology internationally as well  Candidates for 
this might be TRW Rockwell Lockheed and Martin and possibly 
McDonnell Douglas and Boeing  But most of those firms have cash 
flow problems MDC have had a substantial business contraction 
Boeing and MDC are involved with other launch firms Lockheed 
or have taken on substantial debt Martin  And coming up with the 
7001500 M purchase price for the division is a big chunk of 
change for any company] 
 
5  ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
   Arianespace the operator of the Ariane launch system is 
projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990s  In early 
February Arianespace released their annual market survey which 
detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the 
next decade 
   Over short run Arianespace expects to retain their dominant 
position and sustain a majority share of the launch market  Of 54 
international and commercial launches planned through 1995 Ariane 
holds contracts for 31 General Dynamics Atlas vehicle holds 14 
contracts McDonnell Douglas Delta holds 7 and Great Walls Long 
March vehicle holds 2 launch contracts 
   Threequarters of future launch contracts for which Ariane can 
compete are projected to come from communications satellites with 
the remaining 25 split between weather Earth observation and 
scientific satellites  Most of the future telecommunications demand 
growth is predicted to come from the AsiaPacific region 
   Arianespace expects the current market consolidation of 
individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will 
continue with these groups investing in heavier satellites with 
larger communications payloads carrying more transponders 
Arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications 
satellites should increase by 20  over todays average level to 
about 3000 kg in GEO 
   Demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain 
strong over the next three years but in the second half of the 
decade Arianespace predicts demand will decrease  Arianespace 
bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder 
demand and supply  particularly as new data compression techniques 
appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing 
or nearterm transponders 
   One of the significant possible changes in the market was 
identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles including Russian 
launch systems  But Arianespace predicts that in the long term 
investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade 
off between launch service quality and price and that Russian and 
other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities 
and service quality and their market penetration will be minimal 
   [Commentary  Ariane releases their market surveys annually and 
I reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of CSNSTI  
Comparing the two surveys there arent outstanding differences in 
the numbers   The most notable change is the consideration of new 
data compression techniques reducing the demand for new physical 
transponders on orbit
   I note that in contrast to some predictions demand for space
based communications transponders appears to be remain strong While 
fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the 
established pointtopoint telecommunications markets growing 
demand for telecommunications services world wide and for pointto
multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space 
transponder demand  Fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability 
service but only from established point A to established point B 
To establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable 
between the points and while there are improved network solutions 
installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost 
millions or billions of dollars  
   For broadcast services where there is not an existing ground 
network structure satellites still offer the most cost effective 
solution  And if new services are required into a new region it is 
cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of 
thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite 
network  This allows rapid growth of new satellite services and 
has kept demand high  The replacement market for fiberoptics is 
growing as well since as demand grows between the points serviced 
it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to 
handle the increase in traffic 
   Since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still 
growing rapidly satellite market projections remain rosy  But 
satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes  Current 
generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of 
onorbit service or more in contrast to 10 years of service from 
last generations satellites  This has cut back some of the launch 
demand as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite 
launches over longer intervals 
   And as last note Arianespace didnt flag it this year but it 
looks like the space transportation market will be rather over
supplied by existing launch systems in the near term  The annual 
commercial launch demand is for about 1520 medium sized satellites 
per year  From the supply side Ariane is capable of launching up 
to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year Delta is capable of 
about 912 per year Atlas is capable of 612 Long March 48 
Japans HVehicle 24 Russias Proton capable of 8 and other 
systems such as Zenit and Soyuz another 1020 medium launches per 
year  Thats a lot of capability for a small market 
   We can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial 
launches]

6 NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT 
   The 9 Feb Pegasus launch by Orbital Sciences Corporation has 
spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety 
rules  A valid abort order from a NASA range safety officer to halt 
the mission was overridden and the Pegasus was launched in violation 
of range safety rules  
   In the last few minutes of the Pegasus launch countdown one of 
two abort command receivers aboard the Pegasus failed  Such a failure 
typically scrubs a launchand a NASA range safety officer at 
Wallops Island VA issued a mission abort order about a minute 
before the scheduled Pegasus launch  Somehow this command was 
overridden by the OSC launch team or the message was lost in the 
communications channels and the Pegasus was launched despite the 
valid abort call 
   Fortunately the Pegasus functioned as expected and the abort 
command receiver was not needed  But this incident did spark an 
investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreedto 
launch constraint rules and was not obeyed 
   Leading the investigation is the National Transportation Safety 
Board NTSB with support from NASA OSC and the Air Force  This 
investigation marks the first time NTSB has taken the lead on an 
incident involving a space launch  According to the NTSB their 
investigation will take about 6 months and is primarily looking at 
lines of authority communications links and safety procedures used 
in the launch 
  [Commentary This is the first time that the NTSB has led an 
investigation into a space launch  Their leadership was requested 
by the Department of Commerces Office of Commercial Space 
Transportation who had licensed the commercial launch  
   At the time of writing this column some of the initial 
investigations have been concluded and some of the results are 
starting to leak out into the trade press  Apparently 3 or four 
different communications channels were in use during the test After 
the abort destruct receiver stopped responding the NASA test 
director and range controller in the Mission Control room at Wallops 
Island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch  
According to the mission rules this should have stopped the launch 
Somehow the OSC test conductor ordered the abort reversed and the 
NASA communicator on the net relayed that order to the B52 carrying 
the Pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch  Differing 
explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed  with the 
best set being that clear lines of communications and clear 
definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team and 
understanding of the mission rules were not established before the 
launch  
   As we see more and more commercial launches more of these 
procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved   
This case is interesting because it is the first time the NTSB has 
been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem as they 
do with commercial aircraft problems  
   I think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with 
procedures and communications and will be cleared up with issuance 
of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how 
specific lines of authority should be delineated] 

7 ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
   Tsniimach Enterprise in Russia announced it is marketing a new 
small space launch system based upon converted ICBM components  
Two versions of the launcher are being marketed the Aerokosmos 
winged vehicle launched like the OSC Pegasus and the Severkosmos 
launched from a mobile ground transporter  The Aerokosmos is 
projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to 
an 800 km circular orbit and the Severkosmos to be capable of 430 
kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km  Also proposed to be used 
with these launch systems is a LEO data relay system called 
Sineva  Tsniimach Enterprise is described as a exmilitary 
establishment focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of 
spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the 
Buran shuttle system  They are located near the NPO Energia 
facility in Kaliningrad outside of Moscow 
   [Commentary Theres very little released information on this new 
venture  My suspicion is it is another Russian enterprise looking 
for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their inhouse 
knowledge of exSoviet launch systems  It adds to the list of numerous 
commercial space startups announced from the exSoviet Union 
   This ones a little different in that they are offering variants 
of exSoviet ICBMs but I cant identify any key customers being 
targeted or substantial financial backing]

8 GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
   In late January Georgia Tech Research Institute released the 
results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial 
rocket launching site in Camden County Georgia at the old Kingsland 
Missile Test Launching Site on the Atlantic coast  The preliminary 
study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch 
site stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected 
low investment returns plus environmental and other geographic 
considerations  However the report did say the site might be ideal 
for other aerospace uses and recommended other potential uses 
   [Commentary  This should put the nails in the coffin of the 
Kingsland Commercial Launch Site  While other sites are still 
proceeding with commercial launch site development plans Kingsland 
found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant and if 
substantial infrastructure had to be put in then the expected 
returns were too low to justify the cost of development  
   This might point out some key discriminators in judging the 
feasibility of a commercial launch site  These include
   Is there an identified key customer to provide core usage 
sufficient to recover setup costs
   Is there a market advantage of using the site
   Can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site
   Can financing be found at low enough cost to support the 
investment  
   Other commercial launch site ventures  including those at 
Woomera Poker Flat Cape York White Sands Alabama OffShore 
Platform Hawaii and Vandenberg have to also be judged against 
these criteria  In my opinion some of these ventures are flying 
on hope and speculation and not on sound financial grounds]

9 SPAINS CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
   In one of his last official acts former President Bush 
authorized space technology transfer for several joint space 
ventures between US and other firms  One of these was a proposed 
use of US technology by Spain to build a small booster  With that 
regulatory impediment removed the 3stage Capricornia launch 
vehicle will start development later this year planning for a first 
launch in the 199596 time period  The Capricornia is described as 
a small 3stage all solid booster designed to put 250500 Kg into 
LEO  Several launch sites are being examined for the system 
including 2 on the Iberian peninsula and 1 on the Canary Islands  
Originated by INTA in Spain the project reports it has  30 M in 
development funding and will use technology from Argentinas Condor 
launch vehicle as well as from the US 
   [Commentary  Several firms have identified a market opportunity 
in providing a small launcher for the European market  Small 
payloads from European firms or organizations currently use either 
Ariane piggyback launches or the USItalian Scout launcher  
However Ariane piggyback opportunities are limited and the Scout 
program is being phased out accompanied by some disarray in the 
Italian government and space industry regarding any followon 
system  
   This has left an apparent niche for a new European small launch 
system  Surprisingly enough ESA has not supported development of 
such a system within the current space funding structure  Studies 
have been performed by British Aerospace Aerospatiale Deutsche 
Aerospace and Italian organizations but with the exception of the 
SwedishPacAstro system reported below I have not been able to 
find any other European development work with even a rumor of 
funding for hardware 
   Also of interest is the linking of the Capricornia to the 
Argentinian Condor launcher  There have been some interesting 
rumors surfacing out of Argentina over the past year about a space 
launcherIRBM program funded under the military junta which ruled 
the country in the 1970s and early 1980s 
   What is known is in Feb 1992 the Argentinian Air Force formally 
transferred control of the Condor 2 missile program to the new 
civilian Argentinian national space agency Comison Nacional de 
Atividades Espaciales  CNAE  The Condor 2 program was described 
as originating in 1983 expanding upon the smaller Condor 1 rocket 
program in collaboration with Egypt and with support of German 
firms  The Condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by Iraq 
in the mid1980s  Fairly large solid rocket motors were built and 
tested but Argentinan development of a suitable guidance package 
lagged that of the propulsion system 
   It should be noted CNAE is planning to launch its first 
scientific satellite in late 1994  The US 9 M 181 Kg SACB 
satellite will study the Earths upper atmosphere and includes 
cooperative experiments from Italy and the US No launch vehicle has 
yet been selected but OSCs Pegasus and the Russian Burlak Air 
launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this 
contract] 

10 PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
   PacAstro a small launch firm in Herndon Virginia announced in 
late February it had received a 6 M launch reservation contract 
from the Swedish Space Corp to launch a satellite on PacAstros PA2 
launch vehicle   This will be performed as part of the Polar 
Satellite Service PSS a joint Norwegian Space Center Swedish 
Space Corp program to upgrade the Andoya Rocket Range in Norway and 
offering small satellite launches into the polar regions  According 
to PacAstro PSS is also performing an 8 M upgrade of the Andoya 
launch facilities including a new integration facility and a fully
enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like 
the PacAstro PA2  PacAstro has been chosen as the main 
alternative rocket supplier for the small satellite launch service 
to be offered by PSS from Andoya  The date of the launch of the 
Swedish satellite was not specified 
   [Commentary  PacAstro has been trying to line up customers and 
funding for their launch vehicle for some time now  The PA2 is a 
small two stage rocket fueled by RP1 and Liquid Oxygen  From 
PacAstros literature the engines designed for the PAseries 
rockets are built of off the shelf components based upon the Lunar 
MOdule Descent Engines built by TRW and are capable of putting a 
225 Kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit  
   PacAstro is trying to arrange construction financing for its 
first three PA2 vehicles with a first launch planned for 1995 and 
2 orbital launches planned for 1996  My records show PacAstro hired 
TRW to provide marketing support and systems design  with primary 
engineering to be done by AeroAstro a small satellite builder 
closely associated with PacAstro headquartered in the same 
building  The Swedish Space Corporation would supply engineering 
launch operations vehicle subsystems and marketing support 
Sumitomo Corp of Tokyo is a first round investor and sits on the 
board of directors  
   PacAstro has gotten a first round financial package of at least 
550 K  Some sources place this of high as 1 M but has been 
searching for about a year for the additional 2030 M needed to 
design build and launch their first set of vehicles 
   The launch reservation from SSC can possibly be used to help 
bring some investors on board but by my estimate they will need 
much more than the single 6 M sale to put their venture into real 
hardware] 

11 CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
    In early March it was reported a joint satellite communications 
venture between a Taiwanese and mainland Chinese was in the works  
As reported in the Taipei press China Development Corp CDC 
headquartered in Taiwam and with links to the ruling Nationalist 
Party is planning to set up a joint venture in Hong Kong with China 
Great Wall Industry Corp with the objective of launching a regional 
communications satellite CDC would cover about 10 of the satellite 
system cost US 10 M in exchange for rights to 10 of the 
satellites communications channels  
   [Commentary  This announcement came close on the heels of the 
release of Taiwanese plans for space development released in mid 
January   In those plans the National Space Program Office of 
Taiwan will launch 3 satellites starting with ROCSAT1 a 400 Kg 
scientific spacecraft planned for launch in 1997  Two additional 
satellites are planned both communications satellites   TRW has 
been helping Taiwan plan this program budgeted at T136 B US 530 
M through 2006  
   I havent been able to establish any relationship between this 
venture and those of the NSPOT but there might be a connection  
While Taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures the 
current Taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two 
separate sastellite ventures 
   The reported name for the TiawaneseChinese system is Asiasat
2 but I dont thinks this has any relationship with the existing 
Hong Kongbased Asiasat program involving Chinese Hong Kong and 
other Asian investors other than using it as an organizational 
model  There are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing 
venture  it could provide excellent firsthand experience to 
Taiwan for a very low cost which then can be used in later 
satellite ventures  But there are internal political issues between 
Taiwanese and Chinese ventures but putting any joint venture 
through a  Hong Kong intermediary corporation might allow it to 
proceed 
   In any case the East Asian satellite market is lighting up with 
substantially growth projected in space services and revenues  This 
is just another indicator to add to the list] 

12 SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
   South Koreas Trade Industry and Resources Ministry recently 
announced plans to invest US22 B in research and development and 
another US17 B into manufacturing and research facilities for 
advanced aerospace technologies  Space technologies have been 
specifically targeted as part of this program beginning with 
manufacture and launch of an advanced multipurpose satellite by 
1997  The objective of this investment is to raise South Koreas 
aerospace technology to the level of the worlds top 10 countries by 
2000                                 
   [Commentary South Korea has been quietly working to develop its 
national aerospace industry specifically including space 
activities Im noting this as a flag that potential new players are 
coming into the commercial space market 
   As part of their national effort 2 national telecommunications 
satellites for Korea Telecom will be launched in April and Oct 1995 
on Delta Designated Koreasat 1 and 2 the platforms will provide 
television and telephone service throughout the Korean Peninsula 
southwestern Japan and portions of China bordering North Korea 
   South Korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on 
Ariane in Aug 1992 called Uribyol1 Our Star and costing about US 
88 M  Uribyol2 is planned for piggyback launch in October of 
this year again on Ariane and will be entirely made in Korea  
Uribyol3 projected for a 1995 launch will be an environment
monitoring microsatellite 
   This satellite may be the precursor to a series of small Earth 
observation satellites  The KEOS Korean Earth Observation System 
project which has been submitted for approval to the South Korean 
government would use two or three 300kg spacecraft equipped with 
optical and microwave sensors
   South Korean press reports claim there is also a parallel 
military effort to establish the capabilities for building and 
launching small military satellites by 2001  Supposedly a 
government panel had been established to oversee such an effort 
funded at US  500 M between 1993 and 2001 in anticipation of an  
expected pullout of US intelligencegathering systems from the 
Korean peninsula       
   In conjunction with all of these reported efforts South Korean 
is also pursuing production work either as offsets to existing 
aerospace technology contracts for example McDonnell Douglas is 
offsetting production of some Delta parts to South Korean firms as 
part of the Koreasat launch contracts or for production of 
consumer space items among other products South Korea exports 
satellite receiver television setups to Japan and Samsung has 
announced teaming for production of OSCs Orbcomm user terminals  
   This looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies  
Considering that East Asia is currently the fastest growing sector 
for commercial space services primarily for telecommunications a 
South Korean push into space technologies may change the composition 
of commercial space market there over the next decade] 

13 SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
   As announced in the last CSNSTI each issue will give the 
results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and 
investments  The table below summarizes results to the end of 
March  The Space Technology Index did quite a bit better than the 
market as a whole as represented by the SP 500 index  Since 90 
of the values included in the index are US firms this represents a 
general increase in the market value of spacerelated firms  The 
increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992  which 
is a very promising sign although future months may reverse this 
trend The Commercial Space Technology Index has also done quite 
well but the Pure Play portfolio  consisting of stocks of firms 
which are pure plays in space technologies  has also surpassed its 
results in all of 1993  Well keep an eye on these 

   INDEX RESULTS THROUGH MARCH
                           Beginning  Beginning      1 Jan 93 to
                           1992       1993           31 Mar 1993
                                      
   SP 500                 416        436  47   452  37
   Space Tech Index        267        304 136   373 227
   Comml Space Tech Index 167        194 163   222 142
   Space Tech Pure Plays   147        169 154   197 162


FINAL NOTES  
    What  This columns already full  And I still have bunches of 
commercial space developments to report on  As I said at the start 
of this column theres been a lot of interesting happenings  but 
Ill have to put them into the next issue  
   Looking ahead Ive got several articles in the works on new 
happenings with Iridium and the LEO communications satellite market 
more news on international launchers appearing and disappearing on 
the market new international commercial space ventures  and other 
interesting developments 
   And as always I hope you folks find this stuff useful and 
interesting  Any and all comments are welcome 


Wales Larrison                          Space Technology Investor  
Felicitas multos habet amicos             PO Box 2452 
                                        Seal Beach CA 907401452

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>instead.  The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>Why wait until they commit the crime?  Why not implant such devices in
>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?

Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning.  You are proposing to punish people
*before* they commit a crime?  What justification do you have for this?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  writes

Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead  The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime  Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists

Sorry I dont follow your reasoning  You are proposing to punish people
before they commit a crime  What justification do you have for this

keith

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 30

In article <healta.136.734813153@saturn.wwc.edu>
healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>You also said,"Why did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did?  Seems a
>pretty sick way of going about creating a universe..."
>
>I'm gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson--forgive me, I used
>to be a theology major.
>First of all, I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle--
>"the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan" (i borrowed a book title).
>God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
>decisions.
(Deletion)
 
An universe it has created. By the way, can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of one's own creatures do what it likes to others?
By your definitions, your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen - including every choice of Satan.
 
Can you explain us what Free Will is, and how it goes along with omniscience?
Didn't your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world? Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them? That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power, something your god introduced according to your description?
 
 
By the way, are you sure that you have read the FAQ? Especially the part
about preaching?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 30

In article 
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
 
Deletion
You also saidWhy did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did  Seems a
pretty sick way of going about creating a universe

Im gonna respond by giving a small theology lessonforgive me I used
to be a theology major
First of all I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle
the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan i borrowed a book title
God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
decisions
Deletion
 
An universe it has created By the way can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of ones own creatures do what it likes to others
By your definitions your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen  including every choice of Satan
 
Can you explain us what Free Will is and how it goes along with omniscience
Didnt your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description
 
 
By the way are you sure that you have read the FAQ Especially the part
about preaching
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration.  May 7  Crystal City
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 9
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net


AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.

Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????

Anyone want to go?

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration  May 7  Crystal City
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 9
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet


AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA

Does anyone know more about this  How much to attend

Anyone want to go

pat

preprocess doc  From: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com
Subject: Cosmos 2238: an EORSAT
Article-I.D.: cpva.15337.2bc16ada
Organization: Science Applications Int'l Corp./San Diego
Lines: 48

>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 15:40:47 GMT

>I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993-
>018B) as possible. Both its purpose, launch date, location, in short,
>EVERYTHING! Can you help?

>-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ocean Reconnaissance Launch Surprises West
Space News, April 5-11, 1993, p.2
[Excerpts]
     Russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months 
March 30, confounding Western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead. 
     The Itar-TASS news agency announced the launch of Cosmos 2238 from 
Plesetsk Cosmodrome, but provided little description of the payload's mission. 
     However, based on the satellite's trajectory, Western observers 
identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic 
emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement. 
     Geoff Perry of the Kettering Group in England... [said]  Western 
observers had concluded that no more would be launched. But days after the 
last [such] satellite re-entered the Earth's atmosphere, Cosmos 2238 was 
launched. 

"Cosmos-2238" Satellite Launched for Defense Ministry
Moscow ITAR-TASS World Service in Russian  1238 GMT 30 March 1993
Translated in FBIS-SOV-93-060, p.27
by ITAR-TASS correspondent Veronika Romanenkova
     Moscow, 30 March -- The Cosmos-2238 satellite was launched at 1600 Moscow 
time today from the Baykonur by a "Tsiklon-M" carrier rocket. An ITAR-TASS 
correspondent was told at the press center of Russia's space-military forces 
that the satellite was launched in the interests of the Russian Defense 
Ministry. 

Parameters Given
Moscow ITAR-TASS World Service in Russian 0930 GMT 31 March 1993
Translated in FBIS-SOV-93-060, p.27
     Moscow, 31 March -- Another artificial Earth satellite, Cosmos-2238, was 
launched on 30 March from the Baykonur cosmodrome. 
     The satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research. 
The satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters: 
initial period of revolution--92.8 minutes; apogee--443 km; perigee--413 km; 
orbital inclination--65 degrees. 
     Besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the 
precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for 
transmitting to Earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific 
apparatus. The apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally. 

after prepro  From thomsonalcpvasaiccom
Subject Cosmos 2238 an EORSAT
ArticleID cpva153372bc16ada
Organization Science Applications Intl CorpSan Diego
Lines 48

Date Tue 6 Apr 1993 154047 GMT

I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment 1993
018B as possible Both its purpose launch date location in short
EVERYTHING Can you help

Tony Ryan Astronomy  Space new International magazine available from



Ocean Reconnaissance Launch Surprises West
Space News April 511 1993 p2
[Excerpts]
     Russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months 
March 30 confounding Western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead 
     The ItarTASS news agency announced the launch of Cosmos 2238 from 
Plesetsk Cosmodrome but provided little description of the payloads mission 
     However based on the satellites trajectory Western observers 
identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic 
emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement 
     Geoff Perry of the Kettering Group in England [said]  Western 
observers had concluded that no more would be launched But days after the 
last [such] satellite reentered the Earths atmosphere Cosmos 2238 was 
launched 

Cosmos2238 Satellite Launched for Defense Ministry
Moscow ITARTASS World Service in Russian  1238 GMT 30 March 1993
Translated in FBISSOV93060 p27
by ITARTASS correspondent Veronika Romanenkova
     Moscow 30 March  The Cosmos2238 satellite was launched at 1600 Moscow 
time today from the Baykonur by a TsiklonM carrier rocket An ITARTASS 
correspondent was told at the press center of Russias spacemilitary forces 
that the satellite was launched in the interests of the Russian Defense 
Ministry 

Parameters Given
Moscow ITARTASS World Service in Russian 0930 GMT 31 March 1993
Translated in FBISSOV93060 p27
     Moscow 31 March  Another artificial Earth satellite Cosmos2238 was 
launched on 30 March from the Baykonur cosmodrome 
     The satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research 
The satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters 
initial period of revolution928 minutes apogee443 km perigee413 km 
orbital inclination65 degrees 
     Besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the 
precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for 
transmitting to Earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific 
apparatus The apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally 

preprocess doc  From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 72
NNTP-Posting-Host: bozo.dsinc.com

I apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted.
I've been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because I had
a son born (the day after Umar's article was posted, btw).  I did
respond within a couple of days, but it turns out that a a
coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this
site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world.  This
is a revision of that original response.

In article <C52q47.7Ct@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
>In article <1ps98fINNm2u@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
>>nature of the novel could think such a thing.

[this was in response to the claim that "Rushdie made false statements
about the life of Mohammed", with the disclaimer "(fiction, I know,
but where is the line between fact and fiction?) - I stand by this
distinction between fiction and "false statements"]

>>However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
>>what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
>>contained in that book.  I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
>>has convinced me that they have read the book.  Some have initially
>>claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
>>than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
>>factual misstatements about events in the book.
>
>You keep saying things like this.  Then, you accuse people like me of
>making ad hominem arguments.  I repeat, as I have said in previous
>postings on AA: I *have* read TSV from cover to cover

I had not seen that claim, or I might have been less sweeping.  You
have made what I consider factual misstatements about events in the
book, which I have raised in the past, in the "ISLAM: a clearer view"
thread as well as the root of the "Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]"
thread.  My statement was not that you had not read the book, but that
you had not convinced me that you [inter alia] had.  As I said before,
if you want to defend your position, then produce evidence, and
respond to the evidence I have posted; so far you have not.  Of
course, my statement was not directly aimed at you, but broadly at a
number of Muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book,
indicating that they haven't read it, and narrowly at Gregg Jaeger,
who subsequently admitted that he hadn't in fact read the book,
vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case.

So far, the only things I have to go on regarding your own case are a)
the statements you made concerning the book in the "a clearer view"
posting, which I have challenged (not interpretation, but statements
of fact, for instance "Rushdie depicts the women of the most
respected family in all of Islam as whores"), and b) your claim (which
I had not seen before this) that you have indeed read it cover to
cover.  I am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on
critical interpretation, but you'll have to support your end, by
responding to my criticism.  I have no doubt as to the ability of a
particular Muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding
passages to take personal offense at, but you have upheld the view
that "TSV *is* intended as an attack on Islam and upon Muslims".  This
view must be defended by more than mere assertion, if you want anyone
to take it seriously.

>I am trying very hard to be amicable and rational.  

And I appreciate it, but welcome to the club.  I am defending my
honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated
(or otherwise) insulting attack on Islam, and the parallel opinion
that most of the criticism of the book I have seen is baseless
propaganda.  I have supported my statements and critical
interpretationa with in-context quotes from the book and Rushdie's
essays, which is more than my correspondents have done.  Of course,
you are more than welcome to do so.
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

after prepro  From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 72
NNTPPostingHost bozodsinccom

I apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted
Ive been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because I had
a son born the day after Umars article was posted btw  I did
respond within a couple of days but it turns out that a a
coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this
site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world  This
is a revision of that original response

In article  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
In article 1ps98fINNm2udsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing

[this was in response to the claim that Rushdie made false statements
about the life of Mohammed with the disclaimer fiction I know
but where is the line between fact and fiction  I stand by this
distinction between fiction and false statements]

However its not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_ but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book  I have yet to find one single muslim who
has convinced me that they have read the book  Some have initially
claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book

You keep saying things like this  Then you accuse people like me of
making ad hominem arguments  I repeat as I have said in previous
postings on AA I have read TSV from cover to cover

I had not seen that claim or I might have been less sweeping  You
have made what I consider factual misstatements about events in the
book which I have raised in the past in the ISLAM a clearer view
thread as well as the root of the Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
thread  My statement was not that you had not read the book but that
you had not convinced me that you [inter alia] had  As I said before
if you want to defend your position then produce evidence and
respond to the evidence I have posted so far you have not  Of
course my statement was not directly aimed at you but broadly at a
number of Muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book
indicating that they havent read it and narrowly at Gregg Jaeger
who subsequently admitted that he hadnt in fact read the book
vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case

So far the only things I have to go on regarding your own case are a
the statements you made concerning the book in the a clearer view
posting which I have challenged not interpretation but statements
of fact for instance Rushdie depicts the women of the most
respected family in all of Islam as whores and b your claim which
I had not seen before this that you have indeed read it cover to
cover  I am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on
critical interpretation but youll have to support your end by
responding to my criticism  I have no doubt as to the ability of a
particular Muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding
passages to take personal offense at but you have upheld the view
that TSV is intended as an attack on Islam and upon Muslims  This
view must be defended by more than mere assertion if you want anyone
to take it seriously

I am trying very hard to be amicable and rational  

And I appreciate it but welcome to the club  I am defending my
honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated
or otherwise insulting attack on Islam and the parallel opinion
that most of the criticism of the book I have seen is baseless
propaganda  I have supported my statements and critical
interpretationa with incontext quotes from the book and Rushdies
essays which is more than my correspondents have done  Of course
you are more than welcome to do so
 
Jim Perry   perrydsinccom   Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions  For a nominal fee they can be yours

preprocess doc  From: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again))
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Reply-To: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: Vis-Orb Tragnetics Recorporation
Lines: 35

In article <C5L2xt.IqD@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.
>
>Their Hiten engineering-test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
>Earth orbit doing lunar flybys, and then was inserted into lunar orbit
>using some very tricky gravity-assist-like maneuvering.  This meant that
>it would crash on the Moon eventually, since there is no such thing as
>a stable lunar orbit (as far as anyone knows), and I believe I recall
>hearing recently that it was about to happen.


The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'.  These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
three body system.  The probe was launched into this region for the
earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration.

	This from an issue of 'Science News' or 'The Planetary Report' I
believe, about 2 months ago(?).


Raymond L. Swartz Jr. (rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu)
================================================================================
I read the newspaper today and was amazed that, in 24 hours, five billion
people could accomplish so little.
================================================================================


after prepro  From rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again
Subject Re japanese moon landing
ReplyTo rlsuihepahepuiucedu
Organization VisOrb Tragnetics Recorporation
Lines 35

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article  dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon

Their Hiten engineeringtest mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravityassistlike maneuvering  This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen


The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions  These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
three body system  The probe was launched into this region for the
earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration

	This from an issue of Science News or The Planetary Report I
believe about 2 months ago


Raymond L Swartz Jr rlsuihepahepuiucedu

I read the newspaper today and was amazed that in 24 hours five billion
people could accomplish so little



preprocess doc  From: landis@stsci.edu (Robert Landis,S202,,)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Reply-To: landis@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Lines: 14

Another fish to check out is Richard Rast -- he works
for Lockheed Missiles, but is on-site at NASA Johnson.

Nick Johnson at Kaman Sciences in Colo. Spgs and his
friend, Darren McKnight at Kaman in Alexandria, VA.

Good luck.

R. Landis

"Behind every general is his wife.... and...
 behind every Hillary is a Bill . ."



after prepro  From landisstsciedu Robert LandisS202
Subject Re Space Debris
ReplyTo landisstsciedu
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute Baltimore MD
Lines 14

Another fish to check out is Richard Rast  he works
for Lockheed Missiles but is onsite at NASA Johnson

Nick Johnson at Kaman Sciences in Colo Spgs and his
friend Darren McKnight at Kaman in Alexandria VA

Good luck

R Landis

Behind every general is his wife and
 behind every Hillary is a Bill  



preprocess doc  From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Terraforming Venus: can it be done "cheaply"?
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 9

Would someone please send me James Oberg's email address, if he has
one and if someone reading this list knows it?  I wanted to send
him a comment on something in his terraforming book.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

	Potential explosive yield of the annual global
	production of borax:  5 million megatons

after prepro  From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re Terraforming Venus can it be done cheaply
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 9

Would someone please send me James Obergs email address if he has
one and if someone reading this list knows it  I wanted to send
him a comment on something in his terraforming book

	Paul F Dietz
	dietzcsrochesteredu

	Potential explosive yield of the annual global
	production of borax  5 million megatons

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 24

In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu> schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:

>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 

>Oh gee, a billion dollars!  That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>feasability study!  Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!

Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
$$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
more than needed.

This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 24

In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes

  Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
  who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 

Oh gee a billion dollars  Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study  Happy Happy JOY JOY

Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
 would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
more than needed

This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

In article <1ralibINNc0f@cbl.umd.edu> mike@starburst.umd.edu (Michael F. Santangelo) writes:
>... The only thing
>that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSME's and
>a nosecone on it and "just launching it."  I have this vision
>of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
>complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of
>it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction).

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference, actually, since they weren't
building spares of the station hardware anyway.  (Dumb.)  At least this
is only one launch to fail.
-- 
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS.    - Dick Dunn  |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14

In article 1ralibINNc0fcblumdedu mikestarburstumdedu Michael F Santangelo writes
 The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSMEs and
a nosecone on it and just launching it  I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged inorbit construction

It doesnt make a whole lot of difference actually since they werent
building spares of the station hardware anyway  Dumb  At least this
is only one launch to fail
 
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision    Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS     Dick Dunn    henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: hancock@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (thomas hancock)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Lines: 40

dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk) writes:
The Centaur is controlled technology..
State Dept will not allow it to be used outside of US. Sorry.
>In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>>What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
>>than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?

>I haven't seen any speculation about it. But, the Salyut KB (Design Bureau) 
>was planning a new LH/LOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
>payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (Geostationary goes from
>2600 kg. (Gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. This scheme was competing
>with the Energia-M last year and I haven't heard which won, except now
>I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the 
>successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the Energia-M. So the early
>results are Energia-M won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in 
>Russia. I'm sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue 
>their development. 

>The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton 
>is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
>which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
>launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
>are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
>up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
>thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
>Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know 
>how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
>bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
>and erected on the pad?  

>They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
>(unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
>any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
>US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
>problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention. 

>Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
>Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
>Schaumburg, IL

after prepro  From hancocklambdamsfcnasagov thomas hancock
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization NASAMSFC
Lines 40

dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk writes
The Centaur is controlled technology
State Dept will not allow it to be used outside of US Sorry
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now

I havent seen any speculation about it But the Salyut KB Design Bureau 
was planning a new LHLOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg Geostationary goes from
2600 kg Gals launcher version to 6000 kg This scheme was competing
with the EnergiaM last year and I havent heard which won except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the 
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the EnergiaM So the early
results are EnergiaM won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in 
Russia Im sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue 
their development 

The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton 
is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know 
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad  

They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads 
unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention 

Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr21.212202.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration.

Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
You think this is crazy. Well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality.

There is a billin the congress to do just that.. Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US, unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors.. ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends 
of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there
normal taxes. So by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made.
BAsically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe
600.00 in federal taxes.. Bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. And
the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks.. 

Basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
eco-freaks or the protectionist.. 
Such fun we have in these interesting times..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr212122021
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration

Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
You think this is crazy Well in a way it is but in a way it is reality

There is a billin the congress to do just that Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends 
of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there
normal taxes So by the time you get done paying for materials workers and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made
BAsically if you make a 100000 and spend 500 ofor expenses you can owe
60000 in federal taxes Bascially it is driving the miners off the land And
the only peopel who benefit are the ecofreaks 

Basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
ecofreaks or the protectionist 
Such fun we have in these interesting times


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
In-Reply-To: jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 22:44:14 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1993Apr18.224414.784@head-cfa.harvard.edu>
Distribution: sci
Lines: 17

In article <1993Apr18.224414.784@head-cfa.harvard.edu> jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell) writes:

   My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
   known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
   that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
   set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
   and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
   'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.

Good grief. And I thought the Shuttle software was known for being
well-engineered. If this is actually the case, every member of the
programming team should be taken out and shot.

(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity, I strongly doubt that this is the case).

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu

after prepro  From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
InReplyTo jcmheadcfaharvardedus message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 224414 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
	1993Apr18224414784headcfaharvardedu
Distribution sci
Lines 17

In article 1993Apr18224414784headcfaharvardedu jcmheadcfaharvardedu Jonathan McDowell writes

   My understanding is that the expected errors are basically
   known bugs in the warning system software  things are checked
   that dont have the right values in yet because they arent
   set till after launch and suchlike Rather than fix the code
   and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew
   ok if you see a warning no 213 before liftoff ignore it

Good grief And I thought the Shuttle software was known for being
wellengineered If this is actually the case every member of the
programming team should be taken out and shot

given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this is the case

Nick Haines nickhcmuedu

preprocess doc  From: xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 12

Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in today's Washington Post that Joseph Shea, the 
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons.

Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February.  He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel.
Shea's presentation was rambling and almost inaudible.

Shea's deputy, former astronaut Bryan O'Connor, will take over the effort.

Goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track.
-- 
Chuck Divine

after prepro  From xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 12

Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in todays Washington Post that Joseph Shea the 
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons

Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February  He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel
Sheas presentation was rambling and almost inaudible

Sheas deputy former astronaut Bryan OConnor will take over the effort

Goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track
 
Chuck Divine

preprocess doc  From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 215

This kind of argument cries for a comment...

jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com wrote:
: In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>, galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton) writes:

Jim, you originally wrote:
 
: >>...God did not create
: >>disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns.
: > 
: >>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
: >>mutable and can evolve.  Without delving into a deep discussion of
: >>creationism vs evolutionism, God created the original genetic code
: >>perfect and without flaw. 
: >  ~~~~~~~     ~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Do you have any evidence for this? If the code was once perfect, and
has degraded ever since, we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement, shouldn't we?

Perhaps the biggest "imperfection" of the code is that it is full
of non-coding regions, introns, which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions (exons). An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin; it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains.

Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing? It appears that
intron loss can occur, and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exon-intron structure in their genes. 

On the other hand, the possibility that introns have been inserted
later, presents several logical difficulties. Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism - this would have to be present, but unused,
if introns are inserted. Moreover, intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting - random insertion would not be tolerated,
since sequences for intron removal (self-splicing of mRNA) are
conserved. Besides, transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace - long terminal repeats and target - site duplications, and
these are not found in or near intron sequences. 

I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting "theological arguments" like this. 
Try Watson's Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell, Lodish
& Baltimore's Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters.

: Remember, the question was posed in a theological context (Why does
: God cause disease in newborns?), and my answer is likewise from a
: theological perspective -- my own.  It is no less valid than a purely
: scientific perspective, just different.

Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence, whereas 
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion.
 
: I think you misread my meaning.  I said God made the genetic code perfect,
: but that doesn't mean it's perfect now.  It has certainly evolved since.

For the worse? Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion? Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective, unless you support it by some evidence.

In fact, it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than we've thought - for instance, sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites. (This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution, eg Tierra.) 
 
: Perhaps.  I thought it was higher energy rays like X-rays, gamma
: rays, and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage.

In fact, it is thermal energy that does most of the damage, although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action. 

: Actually, neither of us "knows" what the atmosphere was like at the
: time when God created life.  According to my recollection, most
: biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago -- after
: all, that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
: was created.  It would still be too primitive to support life.  I
: seem to remember a figure more like 2.5 to 3 billion years ago for
: the origination of life on earth.  Anyone with a better estimate?

I'd replace "created" with "formed", since there is no need to 
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one.
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 4.6 - 4.8
billion years, and earliest signs of life (not true fossils, but
organic, stromatolite-like layers) date back to 3.5 billion years.
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve.

I'm sorry I can't give any references, this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here. 

: >>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
: >>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic.  Although the forces of
: >>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
: >>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.  

Again, do you _want_ this be true, or do you have any evidence for
this supposed "degeneration"? 

I can understand Scott's reaction:

: > Excuse me, but this is so far-fetched that I know you must be
: > jesting.  Do you know what pathogens are?  Do you know what 
: > Point Mutations are?  Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
: > ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY?!!!!!  
: 
: In response to your last statement, no, and neither do you.
: You may very well believe that and accept it as fact, but you
: cannot *know* that.

I hope you don't forget this: We have _evidence_ that suggests 
everything can come about spontaneously. Do you have evidence against
this conclusion? In science, one does not have to _believe_ in 
anything. It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve. But the 
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so,
and not to present one's own conclusions prior to this. 

Theology does not use this method. Therefore, I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions.

: >>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
: >>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the 
: >>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in 
: >>causing infection and disease.  It is a bad combination.  Hence
: >>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
: >>diseases/disorders.

You are supposing a purpose, not a valid move. Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease. They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution - only replication saves replicators
from degradiation. We are just an efficient method for our DNA to 
survive and replicate. The less efficient methods didn't make it 
to the present. 

And for the last time.  Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes. Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true - we have suppressed our selection,
and thus are bound to degrade. I haven't seen much evidence for either
claim.
 
: But then I ask, So?  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
: answering John's question of why?  Why are there genetic diseases,
: and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
: babies to develop antibodies.  Is it God's fault? (the original
: question) -- I say no, it is not.

Of course, nothing "evil" is god's fault.  But your explanation does
not work, it fails miserably.
 
: You may be right.  But the fact is that you don't know that
: Satan is not responsible, and neither do I.
: 
: Suppose that a powerful, evil being like Satan exists.  Would it
: be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
: that affect mankind?  I don't think so.

He could have done a much better Job. (Pun intended.) The problem is,
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases, they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution.

: Did I say that?  Where?  Seems to me like another bad inference.
: Actually what you've done is to oversimplify what I said to the
: point that your summary of my words takes on a new context.  I
: never said that people are "meant" (presumably by God) "to be
: punished by getting diseases".  Why I did say is that free moral
: choices have attendent consequences.  If mankind chooses to reject
: God, as people have done since the beginning, then they should not
: expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
: universe.

I am not expecting this. If god exists, I expect him to leave us alone.
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free. This is an interesting philosophical question, and the answer
is not as clear-cut as it seems to be.

What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah?
  
: Oh, I admit it's not perfect (yet).  But I'm working on it.  :)

A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point.

: What does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or the
: question to which I provided an answer?  Biology and Genetics are
: fine subjects and important scientific endeavors.  But they explain
: *how* God created and set up life processes.  They don't explain
: the why behind creation, life, or its subsequent evolution.

Why is there a "why behind"? And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence. This is why we recommend
these books.

Is there any need to invoke any why behind, a prime mover? Evidence
for this? If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention, as recent cosmological theories (Hawking et al)
suggest, why do people still insist on this?
 
: Thanks Scotty, for your fine and sagely advice.  But I am
: not highly motivated to learn all the nitty-gritty details
: of biology and genetics, although I'm sure I'd find it a
: fascinating subject.  For I realize that the details do
: not change the Big Picture, that God created life in the
: beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
: environment.

I'm sorry, but they do. There is no evidence for your big picture,
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation.
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being.

Try reading P.W. Atkins' Creation Revisited (Freeman, 1992).

Petri
--
 ___. .'*''.*        Petri Pihko    kem-pmp@          Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' .    Pihatie 15 C    finou.oulu.fi    Physics is the Rule of
       ' *' .* '*    SF-90650 OULU  kempmp@           the Game.
          *'  *  .*  FINLAND         phoenix.oulu.fi  -> Chemistry is The Game.

after prepro  From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 215

This kind of argument cries for a comment

jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom wrote
 In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton writes

Jim you originally wrote
 
 God did not create
 disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns
  
 What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
 mutable and can evolve  Without delving into a deep discussion of
 creationism vs evolutionism God created the original genetic code
 perfect and without flaw 
         

Do you have any evidence for this If the code was once perfect and
has degraded ever since we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement shouldnt we

Perhaps the biggest imperfection of the code is that it is full
of noncoding regions introns which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions exons An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains

Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing It appears that
intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exonintron structure in their genes 

On the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted
later presents several logical difficulties Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism  this would have to be present but unused
if introns are inserted Moreover intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting  random insertion would not be tolerated
since sequences for intron removal selfsplicing of mRNA are
conserved Besides transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace  long terminal repeats and target  site duplications and
these are not found in or near intron sequences 

I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting theological arguments like this 
Try Watsons Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell Lodish
 Baltimores Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters

 Remember the question was posed in a theological context Why does
 God cause disease in newborns and my answer is likewise from a
 theological perspective  my own  It is no less valid than a purely
 scientific perspective just different

Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence whereas 
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion
 
 I think you misread my meaning  I said God made the genetic code perfect
 but that doesnt mean its perfect now  It has certainly evolved since

For the worse Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective unless you support it by some evidence

In fact it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than weve thought  for instance sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution eg Tierra 
 
 Perhaps  I thought it was higher energy rays like Xrays gamma
 rays and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage

In fact it is thermal energy that does most of the damage although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action 

 Actually neither of us knows what the atmosphere was like at the
 time when God created life  According to my recollection most
 biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago  after
 all that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
 was created  It would still be too primitive to support life  I
 seem to remember a figure more like 25 to 3 billion years ago for
 the origination of life on earth  Anyone with a better estimate

Id replace created with formed since there is no need to 
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 46  48
billion years and earliest signs of life not true fossils but
organic stromatolitelike layers date back to 35 billion years
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve

Im sorry I cant give any references this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here 

 dominion it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
 diseases both bacterialviral and genetic  Although the forces of
 natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the
 degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this  

Again do you _want_ this be true or do you have any evidence for
this supposed degeneration 

I can understand Scotts reaction

  Excuse me but this is so farfetched that I know you must be
  jesting  Do you know what pathogens are  Do you know what 
  Point Mutations are  Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
  ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY  
 
 In response to your last statement no and neither do you
 You may very well believe that and accept it as fact but you
 cannot know that

I hope you dont forget this We have _evidence_ that suggests 
everything can come about spontaneously Do you have evidence against
this conclusion In science one does not have to _believe_ in 
anything It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve But the 
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so
and not to present ones own conclusions prior to this 

Theology does not use this method Therefore I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions

 Human DNA being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely
 affecting our wellbeing and ability to fight off disease while the 
 simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in 
 causing infection and disease  It is a bad combination  Hence
 we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial
 diseasesdisorders

You are supposing a purpose not a valid move Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution  only replication saves replicators
from degradiation We are just an efficient method for our DNA to 
survive and replicate The less efficient methods didnt make it 
to the present 

And for the last time  Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true  we have suppressed our selection
and thus are bound to degrade I havent seen much evidence for either
claim
 
 But then I ask So  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
 answering Johns question of why  Why are there genetic diseases
 and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
 babies to develop antibodies  Is it Gods fault the original
 question  I say no it is not

Of course nothing evil is gods fault  But your explanation does
not work it fails miserably
 
 You may be right  But the fact is that you dont know that
 Satan is not responsible and neither do I
 
 Suppose that a powerful evil being like Satan exists  Would it
 be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
 that affect mankind  I dont think so

He could have done a much better Job Pun intended The problem is
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution

 Did I say that  Where  Seems to me like another bad inference
 Actually what youve done is to oversimplify what I said to the
 point that your summary of my words takes on a new context  I
 never said that people are meant presumably by God to be
 punished by getting diseases  Why I did say is that free moral
 choices have attendent consequences  If mankind chooses to reject
 God as people have done since the beginning then they should not
 expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
 universe

I am not expecting this If god exists I expect him to leave us alone
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free This is an interesting philosophical question and the answer
is not as clearcut as it seems to be

What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah
  
 Oh I admit its not perfect yet  But Im working on it  

A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point

 What does this have to do with the price of tea in China or the
 question to which I provided an answer  Biology and Genetics are
 fine subjects and important scientific endeavors  But they explain
 how God created and set up life processes  They dont explain
 the why behind creation life or its subsequent evolution

Why is there a why behind And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence This is why we recommend
these books

Is there any need to invoke any why behind a prime mover Evidence
for this If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention as recent cosmological theories Hawking et al
suggest why do people still insist on this
 
 Thanks Scotty for your fine and sagely advice  But I am
 not highly motivated to learn all the nittygritty details
 of biology and genetics although Im sure Id find it a
 fascinating subject  For I realize that the details do
 not change the Big Picture that God created life in the
 beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
 environment

Im sorry but they do There is no evidence for your big picture
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being

Try reading PW Atkins Creation Revisited Freeman 1992

Petri

 ___         Petri Pihko    kempmp          Mathematics is the Truth
___       Pihatie 15 C    finououlufi    Physics is the Rule of
              SF90650 OULU  kempmp           the Game
                FINLAND         phoenixoulufi   Chemistry is The Game

preprocess doc  From: Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Dunn)
Subject: Re: Clementine mission name
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 22

> Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
>
> Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows:
>
>   "In a cavern, in a canyon,
>    Excavating for a mine,
>    Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
>    And his daughter, CLEMENTINE"
>
> Chorus:
>   "Oh my darling, Oh my darling,
>    Oh my darling Clementine.
>    You are lost and gone forever,
>    Oh my darling Clementine."


        Let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the
sentiments of the first verse (miner) rather than the second (lost and gone
forever).

--
Bruce Dunn    Vancouver, Canada   Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca

after prepro  From Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca Bruce Dunn
Subject Re Clementine mission name
Organization MIND LINK  British Columbia Canada
Lines 22

 WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg writes

 Old pioneer song from the 1850s or so goes as follows

   In a cavern in a canyon
    Excavating for a mine
    Dwelt a miner fortyniner
    And his daughter CLEMENTINE

 Chorus
   Oh my darling Oh my darling
    Oh my darling Clementine
    You are lost and gone forever
    Oh my darling Clementine


        Let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the
sentiments of the first verse miner rather than the second lost and gone
forever


Bruce Dunn    Vancouver Canada   Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>> Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
>> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
>> adversely affect your own, I guess).
>Hehehe, so you say, but this objective morality somehere tells you 
>that this is not the case, and you don't know all the rules of such
>transcendental game systems...

Which objective system are you talking about?  What is its goal?
Again, which brand of morality are you talking about?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re  Which type of morality are you talking about  In a natural sense it
 is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
 adversely affect your own I guess
Hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you 
that this is not the case and you dont know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems

Which objective system are you talking about  What is its goal
Again which brand of morality are you talking about

keith

preprocess doc  From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
In-Reply-To: mangoe@cs.umd.edu's message of 4 Apr 93 10:56:03 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 33



mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:

>>David Wood writes:
>>
>>    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
>
>More seriously, this is just a high-falutin' way of saying "I don't believe
>what you're saying".

Are you making a meta-argument here?  In any case, you are wrong.  
Think of those invisible pink unicorns.

>Also, the existence if Jesus is not an extradinary claim.  

I was responding to the "historical accuracy... of Biblical claims",
of which the existence of Jesus is only one, and one that was not even
mentioned in my post.

>You may want to
>complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims (and
>I won't argue otherwise), but that is a different issue.

Wrong.  That was exactly the issue.  Go back and read the context
included within my post, and you'll see what I mean.

Now that I've done you the kindness of responding to your questions,
please do the same for me.  Answer the Charley Challenges.  Your claim
that they are of the "did not!/ did so!" variety is a dishonest dodge
that I feel certain fools only one person.

--Dave Wood

after prepro  From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Re Gospel Dating
InReplyTo mangoecsumdedus message of 4 Apr 93 105603 GMT
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 33



mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes

David Wood writes

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

More seriously this is just a highfalutin way of saying I dont believe
what youre saying

Are you making a metaargument here  In any case you are wrong  
Think of those invisible pink unicorns

Also the existence if Jesus is not an extradinary claim  

I was responding to the historical accuracy of Biblical claims
of which the existence of Jesus is only one and one that was not even
mentioned in my post

You may want to
complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims and
I wont argue otherwise but that is a different issue

Wrong  That was exactly the issue  Go back and read the context
included within my post and youll see what I mean

Now that Ive done you the kindness of responding to your questions
please do the same for me  Answer the Charley Challenges  Your claim
that they are of the did not did so variety is a dishonest dodge
that I feel certain fools only one person

Dave Wood

preprocess doc  From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 38

In article <C5qIv3.H0o.1@cs.cmu.edu> nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
>   If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
>   economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a
>   lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
>   but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
>   military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than
>   just a "we have the money, why not?" approach.
>
>Ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
>wasted on the moon. It's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000R?) bills
>to fuel their moon-dozers. The money to fund a lunar base would be
>spent in the country to which the base belonged. It's a way of funding
>high-tech research, just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
>fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the
>defense of the country, or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
>fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-European
>cooperation.
>
>Now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of
>money (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as
>investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at
>the size of that multiplier :->).

Actually I favor government funded research. It *is* a pump prime
for a lot of basic technologies. I also understand the short term
value of high tech welfare programs. But they can't substitute for
long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise. That's what's
needed to maintain a healthy economy *anywhere*, on Earth or Luna.
I don't see that long term potential on Luna due to a bunch of
factors I outline in another post.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | 

after prepro  From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 38

In article  nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes
   If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
   economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a
   lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
   but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
   military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than
   just a we have the money why not approach

Ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon Its not like theyd be using 1000 1000R bills
to fuel their moondozers The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged Its a way of funding
hightech research just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research under the pretense that its good for panEuropean
cooperation

Now maybe you think that governmentfunded research is a waste of
money in fact Im pretty sure you do but it does count as
investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at
the size of that multiplier 

Actually I favor government funded research It is a pump prime
for a lot of basic technologies I also understand the short term
value of high tech welfare programs But they cant substitute for
long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise Thats whats
needed to maintain a healthy economy anywhere on Earth or Luna
I dont see that long term potential on Luna due to a bunch of
factors I outline in another post

Gary
 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV              You make it      gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems     we break it      uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way                 Guaranteed       emorykd4ncke4zvgary 
Lawrenceville GA 30244                           

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15

In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.

Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation.  Of
course, they may be over-optimistic.

You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs.

I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15

In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists

Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation  Of
course they may be overoptimistic

You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs

Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 131

In <2942956021.3.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:

>>DATE:   Sat, 3 Apr 1993 10:00:39 GMT
>>FROM:   Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
>>
>>In <1p8ivt$cfj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>
>>>Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next?
>>
>>I don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying 
>>(1) that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it,
>>and
>>(2) that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC.
>>
>>[WTC = World Trade Centre, which was the building that was blown up, I
>>think.]
>>
>>Okay... to make some comments...
>>
>>(1) The person has only been accused -- innocent until proven guilty,
>>remember?  Secondly, there seem to be some holes in his accusation that
>>I read about.  For instance, if they guy used that particular van to
>>blow up the building, and then to go back and claim his deposit back
>>afterwards, he must be incredibly stupid.  

>Perhaps Salamen was one of those "uneducated" Muslims we hear so much about.

>>Nevertheless, he was
>>apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb.  It
>>doesn't seem to fit together, somehow.  

>Actually, Salameh was not the ONLY person involved.  The other fellow was
>a chemical engineer working for Allied Signal who had specifically studied
>explosive devices in school (believe it or not - we actually allow radical
>Muslim types to study things like this in our universities - so much for
>the price of freedom)

From what I read, the other fellow told Salameh how to put it together
over the phone.  The bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated
type, so to put a (I assume complicated) sophisticated bomb together
from instructions _over the phone_ (!) one must need some brains I would
expect.

>>Despite this, there have
>>already been many attacks and threats against mosques and Muslims in the
>>United States as a consequence of his accusation, I have read.
>>

>O.K., now please tell us where this is happening.  I live in the U.S. and
>I have heard very little about these mosque attacks.  There are many mosques
>in Houston, Texas and I would like to know what is going on so I can verify
>this.  Or is the Great Jewish Media Conspiracy keeping us from knowing about
>this in the U.S.  We heard about the mosque attacks during the Desert Storm
>venture, so why is it so quiet now?  Maybe it is localized to New Jersey?

I read this in an article in "The Australian Muslim Times", the
newspaper (weekly) of the Australian Muslim community.  

If this is true, perhaps one of the Muslims based in North America (if
they see this posting) can elaborate.

>>(2) Islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent.  In the Qur'an
>>it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war.
>>The blowing up of the WTC and harming innocents is therefore in blatant
>>contradiction to Islamic teachings.

>This means absolutely nothing.  Plenty of people commit violence while 
>following what they think are valid religious principles.  I have seen
>people post many things here from the Koran which could be "misinterpreted"
>(if that is the explanation you wish to use) by an "uneducated" Muslim to
>allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers.  The first thing every Muslim
>says is that no Muslim could have done that because Islam teaches against
>harming innocents.  And we are supposed to take you WORD that it NEVER
>happens.   What do you think is the consequence?  Does Allah strike them
>down before the "alleged" violence occurs?  Of course not.  Muslims commit
>the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the Koran.  We're
>pretty hip to that trick.  And I even doubt that it will come up in the
>trials.  

>"My defense is that I am Muslim and Islam teaches me not to harm the innocent.
>Therefore, the people who were killed must not have been innocent.  Sure we
>set off the bomb, your honor, but you must remember, sir, I am a Muslim.
>Allah is all-powerful.  Allah would not have allowed this.  Are you insulting
>my religion?"

>Great defense, eh?

>Just admit that there are some incredibly stupid, violent Muslims in the 
>world and stop hiding from that fact.  It does no one any good to deny it.
>It only makes the more reasonable Muslims look like they are protecting the
>bad ones.  Can you see that?

I don't deny this fact.

The thrust of my argument here is that 

(a) Salameh is, according to US law, innocent as he has not been found
guilty in a court of law.  As his guilt has not been established, it is
wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption.

(b) Islam teaches us _not_ to harm innocents.  If Muslims -- who perhaps
have not realized that Islam teaches this -- perform such actions, it is
_not_ _because_ of the teachings of Islam, but rather _in spite of_ and
_in contradiction to_ the  teachings of Islam.  This is an important 
distinction.

I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say "Muslim".  In
general, anyone who calls themselves a "Muslim" and does not do or 
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim.  Thus, one who might do things contrary to
Islam (through ignorance, for example) does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim.  If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles, though, then one does leave Islam.

The term "Muslim" is to be contrasted with "Mu'min", which means "true
believer".  However, whether a Muslim is in reality a Mu'min is
something known only by God (and perhaps that person himself).  So you
will not find the term Mu'min used very much by Muslims in alt.atheism,
because it is not known to anybody (except myself and God), whether I,
for example, am a "true believer" or not.  For example, I could just be
putting on a show here, and in reality believe something opposite to
what I write here, without anyone knowing.  Thus, when we say "Muslims"
we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow Islam, whether in
practice they might, in ignorance, transgress Islamic teachings.  By
"Muslim" we do not necessarily mean "Mu'min", or "true believer" in
Islam.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   


after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 131

In 29429560213p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles  writes

DATE   Sat 3 Apr 1993 100039 GMT
FROM   Fred Rice 

In 1p8ivtcfjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next

I dont know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying 
1 that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it
and
2 that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC

[WTC  World Trade Centre which was the building that was blown up I
think]

Okay to make some comments

1 The person has only been accused  innocent until proven guilty
remember  Secondly there seem to be some holes in his accusation that
I read about  For instance if they guy used that particular van to
blow up the building and then to go back and claim his deposit back
afterwards he must be incredibly stupid  

Perhaps Salamen was one of those uneducated Muslims we hear so much about

Nevertheless he was
apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb  It
doesnt seem to fit together somehow  

Actually Salameh was not the ONLY person involved  The other fellow was
a chemical engineer working for Allied Signal who had specifically studied
explosive devices in school believe it or not  we actually allow radical
Muslim types to study things like this in our universities  so much for
the price of freedom

From what I read the other fellow told Salameh how to put it together
over the phone  The bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated
type so to put a I assume complicated sophisticated bomb together
from instructions _over the phone_  one must need some brains I would
expect

Despite this there have
already been many attacks and threats against mosques and Muslims in the
United States as a consequence of his accusation I have read


OK now please tell us where this is happening  I live in the US and
I have heard very little about these mosque attacks  There are many mosques
in Houston Texas and I would like to know what is going on so I can verify
this  Or is the Great Jewish Media Conspiracy keeping us from knowing about
this in the US  We heard about the mosque attacks during the Desert Storm
venture so why is it so quiet now  Maybe it is localized to New Jersey

I read this in an article in The Australian Muslim Times the
newspaper weekly of the Australian Muslim community  

If this is true perhaps one of the Muslims based in North America if
they see this posting can elaborate

2 Islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent  In the Quran
it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war
The blowing up of the WTC and harming innocents is therefore in blatant
contradiction to Islamic teachings

This means absolutely nothing  Plenty of people commit violence while 
following what they think are valid religious principles  I have seen
people post many things here from the Koran which could be misinterpreted
if that is the explanation you wish to use by an uneducated Muslim to
allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers  The first thing every Muslim
says is that no Muslim could have done that because Islam teaches against
harming innocents  And we are supposed to take you WORD that it NEVER
happens   What do you think is the consequence  Does Allah strike them
down before the alleged violence occurs  Of course not  Muslims commit
the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the Koran  Were
pretty hip to that trick  And I even doubt that it will come up in the
trials  

My defense is that I am Muslim and Islam teaches me not to harm the innocent
Therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent  Sure we
set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir I am a Muslim
Allah is allpowerful  Allah would not have allowed this  Are you insulting
my religion

Great defense eh

Just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent Muslims in the 
world and stop hiding from that fact  It does no one any good to deny it
It only makes the more reasonable Muslims look like they are protecting the
bad ones  Can you see that

I dont deny this fact

The thrust of my argument here is that 

a Salameh is according to US law innocent as he has not been found
guilty in a court of law  As his guilt has not been established it is
wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption

b Islam teaches us _not_ to harm innocents  If Muslims  who perhaps
have not realized that Islam teaches this  perform such actions it is
_not_ _because_ of the teachings of Islam but rather _in spite of_ and
_in contradiction to_ the  teachings of Islam  This is an important 
distinction

I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say Muslim  In
general anyone who calls themselves a Muslim and does not do or 
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim  Thus one who might do things contrary to
Islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim  If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles though then one does leave Islam

The term Muslim is to be contrasted with Mumin which means true
believer  However whether a Muslim is in reality a Mumin is
something known only by God and perhaps that person himself  So you
will not find the term Mumin used very much by Muslims in altatheism
because it is not known to anybody except myself and God whether I
for example am a true believer or not  For example I could just be
putting on a show here and in reality believe something opposite to
what I write here without anyone knowing  Thus when we say Muslims
we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow Islam whether in
practice they might in ignorance transgress Islamic teachings  By
Muslim we do not necessarily mean Mumin or true believer in
Islam

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   


preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 22

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> ( I am almost sure that Zyklon-B is immediate and painless method of 
> death. If not, insert soem other form. )
> 
>         And, ethnic and minority groups have been killed, mutilated and 
> exterminated through out history, so I guess it was not unusual.
> 
>         So, you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the US 
> Constitution?  [ in so far, the punishment. I doubt they recieved what would 
> be considered a "fair" trial by US standards.

Don't be so sure.  Look what happened to Japanese citizens in the US during
World War II.  If you're prepared to say "Let's round these people up and
stick them in a concentration camp without trial", it's only a short step to
gassing them without trial.  After all, it seems that the Nazis originally
only intended to imprison the Jews; the Final Solution was dreamt up partly
because they couldn't afford to run the camps because of the devastation
caused by Goering's Total War.  Those who weren't gassed generally died of
malnutrition or disease.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re   I am almost sure that ZyklonB is immediate and painless method of 
 death If not insert soem other form 
 
         And ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and 
 exterminated through out history so I guess it was not unusual
 
         So you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the US 
 Constitution  [ in so far the punishment I doubt they recieved what would 
 be considered a fair trial by US standards

Dont be so sure  Look what happened to Japanese citizens in the US during
World War II  If youre prepared to say Lets round these people up and
stick them in a concentration camp without trial its only a short step to
gassing them without trial  After all it seems that the Nazis originally
only intended to imprison the Jews the Final Solution was dreamt up partly
because they couldnt afford to run the camps because of the devastation
caused by Goerings Total War  Those who werent gassed generally died of
malnutrition or disease


mathew

preprocess doc  From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: Order MOORE's book to restore Great Telescope
Lines: 41
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 41

Several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the
Great 72" reflector built at Birr Castle, Ireland in 1845 which remained the
largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century.

"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" was written by Patrick Moore who now sits on
the committee which is going to restore the telescope. (The remains are on
public display all year round - the massive support walls, the 60 foot long
tube, and other bits and pieces). This book is the definitivie history of
how one man, the Third Earl of Rosse, pulled off the most impressive
technical achievement, perhaps ever, in the history of the telescope, and
the discoveries made with the instrument.

Patrick Moore is donating all proceeds from the book's sale to help restore
the telescope. Astronomy Ireland is making the book available world wide by
mail order. It's a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day
when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer.

=====ORDERING INFORMATION=====
"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" Dr. Patrick Moore, xii, 90pp, 208mm x 145mm.
Price:
U.S.: US$4.95 + US$2.95 post & packing (add $3.50 airmail)
U.K. (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 1.50 post & packing
EUROPE (pounds sterling): 3.50 + 2.00 post and packing
REST OF WORLD: as per U.S. but funds payable in US$ only.

PAYMENT:
Make all payments to "Astronomy Ireland".
CREDIT CARD: MASTERCARD/VISA/EUROCARD/ACCESS accepted by email or snail
mail: give card number, name & address, expiration date, and total amount.
Payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft.
Send to our permanent address: P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.

You can also subscribe to "Astronomy & Space" at the same time. See below:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
              Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).

  (WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min

after prepro  From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject Order MOOREs book to restore Great Telescope
Lines 41
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 41

Several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the
Great 72 reflector built at Birr Castle Ireland in 1845 which remained the
largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century

The Astronomy of Birr Castle was written by Patrick Moore who now sits on
the committee which is going to restore the telescope The remains are on
public display all year round  the massive support walls the 60 foot long
tube and other bits and pieces This book is the definitivie history of
how one man the Third Earl of Rosse pulled off the most impressive
technical achievement perhaps ever in the history of the telescope and
the discoveries made with the instrument

Patrick Moore is donating all proceeds from the books sale to help restore
the telescope Astronomy Ireland is making the book available world wide by
mail order Its a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day
when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer

ORDERING INFORMATION
The Astronomy of Birr Castle Dr Patrick Moore xii 90pp 208mm x 145mm
Price
US US495  US295 post  packing add 350 airmail
UK pounds sterling 350  150 post  packing
EUROPE pounds sterling 350  200 post and packing
REST OF WORLD as per US but funds payable in US only

PAYMENT
Make all payments to Astronomy Ireland
CREDIT CARD MASTERCARDVISAEUROCARDACCESS accepted by email or snail
mail give card number name  address expiration date and total amount
Payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft
Send to our permanent address POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland

You can also subscribe to Astronomy  Space at the same time See below

Tony Ryan Astronomy  Space new International magazine available from
              Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress

  WORLDS LARGEST ASTRO SOC per capita  unless you know better 0033
Tel 0891881950 UKNIreland 1550111442 Eire Cost up to 48p per min

preprocess doc  From: zellner@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission
Lines: 19
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: world,na

In article <1rd1g0$ckb@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes: 
 > 
 > 
 > SOmebody mentioned  a re-boost of HST during this mission,  meaning
 > that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission.
 >  

I haven't heard any hint of a re-boost, or that any is needed.

 > 
 > why not  grapple,  do all said fixes,   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
 > thruster module  to  HST,   then let it make the re-boost.  it has to be
 > cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug.   

Nasty, dirty combustion products!  People have gone to monumental efforts to
keep HST clean.  We certainly aren't going to bolt any thrusters to it.

Ben


after prepro  From zellnerstsciedu
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission
Lines 19
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution worldna

In article 1rd1g0ckbaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes 
  
  
  SOmebody mentioned  a reboost of HST during this mission  meaning
  that Weight is a very tight  margin on this  mission
   

I havent heard any hint of a reboost or that any is needed

  
  why not  grapple  do all said fixes   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
  thruster module  to  HST   then let it make the reboost  it has to be
  cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug   

Nasty dirty combustion products  People have gone to monumental efforts to
keep HST clean  We certainly arent going to bolt any thrusters to it

Ben


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Dear Mr. Theist
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20

Pixie (dl2021@andy.bgsu.edu) wrote:

:      For all the problems technology has caused, your types have made
: things even worse.  Must we be reminded of the Inquisition, Operation
: Rescue, the Ku Klux Klan, Posse Comitatus, the 700 Club, David Duke, Salem
: Witch Trials, the Crusades, gay bashings, etc.
:      PLUS virtually each and every single war, regardless of the level of
: technology, has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage
: (chaplains, etc.), and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal. 
: Don't forget to pray for our troops!
:      

This is really tedious. Every bad thing that's ever happened is
because the malefactors were under the influence of religion - does
anyone -really- believe that. I've seen it so often it must be a
pretty general opinion in a.a, but I want to believe that atheists are
really not THAT dishonest. Please, stick to the facts and, having
accomplished that, interpret them correctly.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Dear Mr Theist
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20

Pixie dl2021andybgsuedu wrote

      For all the problems technology has caused your types have made
 things even worse  Must we be reminded of the Inquisition Operation
 Rescue the Ku Klux Klan Posse Comitatus the 700 Club David Duke Salem
 Witch Trials the Crusades gay bashings etc
      PLUS virtually each and every single war regardless of the level of
 technology has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage
 chaplains etc and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal 
 Dont forget to pray for our troops
      

This is really tedious Every bad thing thats ever happened is
because the malefactors were under the influence of religion  does
anyone really believe that Ive seen it so often it must be a
pretty general opinion in aa but I want to believe that atheists are
really not THAT dishonest Please stick to the facts and having
accomplished that interpret them correctly

Bill

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage:...)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 208

In <1993Apr4.200253.21409@ennews.eas.asu.edu> guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer ) writes:

>You might not like what Bernard Lewis writes about, label him
>as a Zionist or such to discredit him etc. 

You misrepresent me, Selim.  The hard evidence for my statements about
his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book
"Orientalism" by Edward Said.  Edward Said, by the way, is a Christian,
not a Muslim.

>I think he is
>pretty much objective in his treatment in "Race and Slavery in
>the Middle East", since he clearly distinguishes between
>slavery under Islam, and the practice of slavery in other countries,
>like the US prior to the civil war. He also does not conceal
>that there are verses in the Quran which promote the liberation
>of slaves. What he doesn't, and I don't think nobody can,
>deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be
>abolished in Islamic countries. Now you might, rather conveniently,
>blame the practice of slavery on Muslims, but the facts are out
>there. I also fail to see the relevance of the claim of Lewis being
>a "Zionist" to what I wrote. 

Regarding Bernard Lewis:

Him being a Zionist gives him a political motive for his
giving misrepresentations and half-truths about Islam.

Read "Orientalism" by Edward Said -- see the evidence for yourself.

In fact, I may post some of it here (if it isn't too long).

>They were encyclopaedic information
>which anybody can access - that slavery was abolished at certain
>dates some 1200 years after Muhammed, that this was the cause
>of tensions in the Ottoman empire between the Arab slave traders
>and the government etc.. We also have in the ASU library volumes
>of British documents on slavery where reports and documents
>concerning slavery all around the world can be found, which I
>checked some of the incidents Lewis mentions. So I don't think
>ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence.

I haven't read Lewis's article, so I can't comment directly upon it, and
have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far, that his
political motives make him a biased writer on Islam.  His anti-Islamic
polemics, as I understand it, are often quite subtle and are often based
on telling half-truths.

Again, read "Orientalism" by Edward Said.  I am _not_ asking you to take
what I say on trust, in fact I am urging you not to do so but to get
this book (it is a well-known book) and check the evidence out for
_yourself_.

>The issue I raised was that slaves WERE USED FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES,
>when it was claimed that Islam prohibits extra-marital sex.
>I wrote that the Prophet himself had concubines, I wrote an
>incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not
>want his concubine to get pregnant etc., which is contrary
>to the notion that "sex is for procreation only". In other
>words, such claims are baseless in the Quran and the Hadith.

If slavery is _in reality_ (as opposed to in the practice of some
Muslims) opposed by Islam, then using slaves for sexual
purposes is necessarily opposed too.

>I seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you. Islam is
>not "advocating" slavery. Slavery was an existing institution in the 
>7th century. It advised on slaves being freed for good
>deeds etc., which is nothing new. Many cultures saw this as a
>good thing. What is the problem here? But I can argue rightfully
>that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses
>politically - the Quran rewards the good slave, so obey your
>master and perhaps one day you'll be free.  But, it is very
>understandable that I do not communicate with Muslims, since
>they assume the Quran is from a "God", and I think it is a rule-based
>system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo.
>Slaves are a part of this system, the subordination of women
>so that their function in society boils down to child-making
>is a part of this system, etc. 

I understand your point of view, Selim -- I think, rather, it is _us_
who are not getting through to _you_.

Some of the points you repeat above I have already answered before.

Regarding women, I have made posting after posting on this subject,
showing that Islam is not anti-woman, etc.  However, have you been
completely ignoring my postings or just missing them?  I just reposted a
very good one, under the title "Islam and Women", reposted from
soc.religion.islam.  If this has already disappeared from your site,
then please email me telling me so and I will email you a copy of this
excellent article.  

IMHO, your understanding of the issue of women in Islam is sadly deficient.

Regarding slaves, _my_ posting on slavery -- the second one I made,
which is a repost of an article I wrote early last year -- is based
completely on the Qur'an and contains numerous Qur'anic verses and
hadiths to support its point of view.

Our approaches are different -- you are arguing from a historical
standpoint and I am arguing directly from the teachings of the Qur'an
and hadiths.  Now, just because people say they are Muslims and perform
a particular action, does that automatically mean that their action is
part of Islam, even if it is opposed by the Qur'an and Sunnah?  No!  Of
course not.

Let me give you a concrete example, which might help clarify this for
you.  The Qur'an prohibits drinking.  Now, if a person says "I am a
Muslim" and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer, does this now mean
that Islam teaches that people should drink beer?  Of course not, and
only an idiot would think so.

Do you see my point?

>It is very natural to think that
>the author/authors of the Quran had no idea that the socio-economic
>structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm
>shifts in 1400 years in the western cultures - first with the end of 
>the feudal era and the rise of commerce, second with the industrial 
>revolution.  Well, rules have changed and the status quo has driven 
>Muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a "heathen" world. 
>Muslim countries have failed economically, they were unable to 
>accumulate any wealth - directly due to the uncomprimising economic
>rules in the Quran. In fact, the rise of Islam can easily be modeled
>after the pyramid effect - you do not produce any wealth at home,
>but increase your wealth by conquering places.  

You are judging Islam here on capitalist terms.  Capitalism is an
ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise
their wealth -- this assumption is in opposition to Islamic teachings.
To say Islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking --
Islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be
capitalist.  (This does not mean that Islam does not support a
free-market -- for it does in general -- but there are other parts of 
capitalism which are opposed to Islam as I understand it.)

>When this stopped,
>you (and I) were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour.
>No capital, no industry, very poor social services - the education
>level in Muslim countries are the lowest in the world, the health
>statistics are miserable etc.. 

One can postulate numerous reasons for this.  Your theory is that it is
because Islam is not secularist and capitalist, etc. etc.

Selim, I will give you a clear historical example to show you the
fallacy of your views if you think (as you obviously do) that
Islam => lack of education and power.

For a large part of history, the Islamic world was very powerful.  For a
significant section of history, the Islamic world was the foremost in
the sciences.  So to say that Islam is, for example, anti-education is
completely absurd.  You try to blame this situation on Islam -- history
shows that your conclusion is false and that, instead, there must be
other reasons for this situation.

>You blame Muslims for not following the Quran, but I blame Muslims 
>for following the Quran. 

Well, Selim, your viewpoint on women in Islam makes me question the extent
of your knowledge of Islam.  I really think you are not
knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the Muslims are
following the Qur'an or not.

>Your idea is baseless from historical
>facts, it is a poor utopia, 

The Islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one
stage -- yet somehow, in your theory, it is by "following the Qur'an"
that Muslims are backwards in education.  Selim, it is _your_ thesis
that is anti-historical, for you conveniently overlook this historical
fact which contradicts your theory. 

>while my ideas are derived from social
>and economic history. 

You have certainly not shown this; you have merely stated it.
So far, it seems to me that your view on Islam being anti-education is
quite contrary to history.  That you are so convinced of your views
makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of
this.

>My solution to all Muslims is simple:
>CUT THE CRAP, 

I think, Selim, you should consider taking your own advice.

>GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT 

Here too.

>AND WORK HARD TO REVERSE
>THE EFFECTS OF 1300 YEARS OF IGNORANCE.

Selim, you have such conviction of your viewpoint, yet you demonstrate
ignorance, not only of Islam but also of Islamic history (particularly
with respect to Muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so I
think).  Yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history!

Selim, if I remember right, you say in one of your earlier posts that
you are an apostate from Islam.  I think you should slow down and start
thinking clearly about the issues, and start _reading_ some of our
postings about Islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously
have.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 208

In 1993Apr420025321409ennewseasasuedu guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer  writes

You might not like what Bernard Lewis writes about label him
as a Zionist or such to discredit him etc 

You misrepresent me Selim  The hard evidence for my statements about
his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book
Orientalism by Edward Said  Edward Said by the way is a Christian
not a Muslim

I think he is
pretty much objective in his treatment in Race and Slavery in
the Middle East since he clearly distinguishes between
slavery under Islam and the practice of slavery in other countries
like the US prior to the civil war He also does not conceal
that there are verses in the Quran which promote the liberation
of slaves What he doesnt and I dont think nobody can
deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be
abolished in Islamic countries Now you might rather conveniently
blame the practice of slavery on Muslims but the facts are out
there I also fail to see the relevance of the claim of Lewis being
a Zionist to what I wrote 

Regarding Bernard Lewis

Him being a Zionist gives him a political motive for his
giving misrepresentations and halftruths about Islam

Read Orientalism by Edward Said  see the evidence for yourself

In fact I may post some of it here if it isnt too long

They were encyclopaedic information
which anybody can access  that slavery was abolished at certain
dates some 1200 years after Muhammed that this was the cause
of tensions in the Ottoman empire between the Arab slave traders
and the government etc We also have in the ASU library volumes
of British documents on slavery where reports and documents
concerning slavery all around the world can be found which I
checked some of the incidents Lewis mentions So I dont think
ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence

I havent read Lewiss article so I cant comment directly upon it and
have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far that his
political motives make him a biased writer on Islam  His antiIslamic
polemics as I understand it are often quite subtle and are often based
on telling halftruths

Again read Orientalism by Edward Said  I am _not_ asking you to take
what I say on trust in fact I am urging you not to do so but to get
this book it is a wellknown book and check the evidence out for
_yourself_

The issue I raised was that slaves WERE USED FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES
when it was claimed that Islam prohibits extramarital sex
I wrote that the Prophet himself had concubines I wrote an
incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not
want his concubine to get pregnant etc which is contrary
to the notion that sex is for procreation only In other
words such claims are baseless in the Quran and the Hadith

If slavery is _in reality_ as opposed to in the practice of some
Muslims opposed by Islam then using slaves for sexual
purposes is necessarily opposed too

I seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you Islam is
not advocating slavery Slavery was an existing institution in the 
7th century It advised on slaves being freed for good
deeds etc which is nothing new Many cultures saw this as a
good thing What is the problem here But I can argue rightfully
that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses
politically  the Quran rewards the good slave so obey your
master and perhaps one day youll be free  But it is very
understandable that I do not communicate with Muslims since
they assume the Quran is from a God and I think it is a rulebased
system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo
Slaves are a part of this system the subordination of women
so that their function in society boils down to childmaking
is a part of this system etc 

I understand your point of view Selim  I think rather it is _us_
who are not getting through to _you_

Some of the points you repeat above I have already answered before

Regarding women I have made posting after posting on this subject
showing that Islam is not antiwoman etc  However have you been
completely ignoring my postings or just missing them  I just reposted a
very good one under the title Islam and Women reposted from
socreligionislam  If this has already disappeared from your site
then please email me telling me so and I will email you a copy of this
excellent article  

IMHO your understanding of the issue of women in Islam is sadly deficient

Regarding slaves _my_ posting on slavery  the second one I made
which is a repost of an article I wrote early last year  is based
completely on the Quran and contains numerous Quranic verses and
hadiths to support its point of view

Our approaches are different  you are arguing from a historical
standpoint and I am arguing directly from the teachings of the Quran
and hadiths  Now just because people say they are Muslims and perform
a particular action does that automatically mean that their action is
part of Islam even if it is opposed by the Quran and Sunnah  No  Of
course not

Let me give you a concrete example which might help clarify this for
you  The Quran prohibits drinking  Now if a person says I am a
Muslim and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer does this now mean
that Islam teaches that people should drink beer  Of course not and
only an idiot would think so

Do you see my point

It is very natural to think that
the authorauthors of the Quran had no idea that the socioeconomic
structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm
shifts in 1400 years in the western cultures  first with the end of 
the feudal era and the rise of commerce second with the industrial 
revolution  Well rules have changed and the status quo has driven 
Muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a heathen world 
Muslim countries have failed economically they were unable to 
accumulate any wealth  directly due to the uncomprimising economic
rules in the Quran In fact the rise of Islam can easily be modeled
after the pyramid effect  you do not produce any wealth at home
but increase your wealth by conquering places  

You are judging Islam here on capitalist terms  Capitalism is an
ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise
their wealth  this assumption is in opposition to Islamic teachings
To say Islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking 
Islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be
capitalist  This does not mean that Islam does not support a
freemarket  for it does in general  but there are other parts of 
capitalism which are opposed to Islam as I understand it

When this stopped
you and I were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour
No capital no industry very poor social services  the education
level in Muslim countries are the lowest in the world the health
statistics are miserable etc 

One can postulate numerous reasons for this  Your theory is that it is
because Islam is not secularist and capitalist etc etc

Selim I will give you a clear historical example to show you the
fallacy of your views if you think as you obviously do that
Islam  lack of education and power

For a large part of history the Islamic world was very powerful  For a
significant section of history the Islamic world was the foremost in
the sciences  So to say that Islam is for example antieducation is
completely absurd  You try to blame this situation on Islam  history
shows that your conclusion is false and that instead there must be
other reasons for this situation

You blame Muslims for not following the Quran but I blame Muslims 
for following the Quran 

Well Selim your viewpoint on women in Islam makes me question the extent
of your knowledge of Islam  I really think you are not
knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the Muslims are
following the Quran or not

Your idea is baseless from historical
facts it is a poor utopia 

The Islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one
stage  yet somehow in your theory it is by following the Quran
that Muslims are backwards in education  Selim it is _your_ thesis
that is antihistorical for you conveniently overlook this historical
fact which contradicts your theory 

while my ideas are derived from social
and economic history 

You have certainly not shown this you have merely stated it
So far it seems to me that your view on Islam being antieducation is
quite contrary to history  That you are so convinced of your views
makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of
this

My solution to all Muslims is simple
CUT THE CRAP 

I think Selim you should consider taking your own advice

GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT 

Here too

AND WORK HARD TO REVERSE
THE EFFECTS OF 1300 YEARS OF IGNORANCE

Selim you have such conviction of your viewpoint yet you demonstrate
ignorance not only of Islam but also of Islamic history particularly
with respect to Muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so I
think  Yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history

Selim if I remember right you say in one of your earlier posts that
you are an apostate from Islam  I think you should slow down and start
thinking clearly about the issues and start _reading_ some of our
postings about Islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously
have

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: nin
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Lines: 49

In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

> One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
> because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more virile men.
> Compare that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my
> point.

Oh, Bobby. You're priceless. Did I ever tell you that?

My policy with Bobby's posts, should anyone give a damn, is to flick
through the thread at high speed, searching for posts of Bobby's which
have generated a whole pile of followups, then go in and extract the
hilarious quote inevitably present for .sig purposes. Works for me.

For the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether Bobby's for real,
you betcha. Welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse.
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below. Is anyone
(Keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff?

     "In Allah's infinite wisdom, the universe was created from nothing,
        just by saying "Be", and it became. Therefore Allah exists."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #1

     "Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
      contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
      reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2

              "Plus, to the believer, it would be contradictory
                    to the Quran for Allah not to exist."
           --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #3

and now

   "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
    because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men. Compare
    that with how homos are raised.  Do a study and you will get my point."
         -- Bobby Mozumder being Islamically Rigorous on alt.atheism

Mmmmm. Quality *and* quantity from the New Voice of Islam (pbuh).

Cheers

Simon
-- 
Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.

after prepro  From simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost nin
Organization Department of Computer Science Warwick University England
Lines 49

In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

 One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
 because of the love of their mom  It makes for more virile men
 Compare that with how homos are raised  Do a study and you will get my
 point

Oh Bobby Youre priceless Did I ever tell you that

My policy with Bobbys posts should anyone give a damn is to flick
through the thread at high speed searching for posts of Bobbys which
have generated a whole pile of followups then go in and extract the
hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes Works for me

For the guy who said hes just arrived and asked whether Bobbys for real
you betcha Welcome to altatheism and rest assured that it gets worse
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below Is anyone
Keith keeping a big file of such stuff

     In Allahs infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing
        just by saying Be and it became Therefore Allah exists
            Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 1

     Wait You just said that humans are rarely reasonable Doesnt that
      contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and
      reason This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false
            Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 2

              Plus to the believer it would be contradictory
                    to the Quran for Allah not to exist
            Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 3

and now

   One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
    because of the love of their mom It makes for more virile men Compare
    that with how homos are raised  Do a study and you will get my point
          Bobby Mozumder being Islamically Rigorous on altatheism

Mmmmm Quality and quantity from the New Voice of Islam pbuh

Cheers

Simon
 
Simon Clippingdale                simondcswarwickacuk
Department of Computer Science    Tel 44 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX 44 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL UK

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration.  May 7  Crystal City
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 31
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr19.230236.18227@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis) writes:
> In article <1quule$5re@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> |> 
> |> AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
> |> May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
> |> 
> |> Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????
> Here are some selected excerpts of the invitation/registration form they
> sent me. Retyped without permission, all typo's are mine.

Thanks for typing that in, Steven.  Sounds like a "fall back and
regroup" strategy session.

I wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering
cover letter:

"Invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a
strong committment to space program development and have been
influential in its advancement.  We sincerely hope you will be able to
attend."

Wow! I wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space
convinced them to send me this letter?

I hope you decide to go, Pat.  The Net can use some eyes and ears
there...

Bill Higgins          |  If we can put a man on the Moon, why can't
Fermilab              |  we put a man on the Moon? -- Bill Engfer
higgins@fnal.fnal.gov |  If we can put a man on the Moon, why can't
higgins@fnal.Bitnet   |  we put a woman on the Moon? -- Bill Higgins

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration  May 7  Crystal City
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 31
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1993Apr1923023618227aiojscnasagov davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis writes
 In article 1quule5reaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
  
  AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
  May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
  
  Does anyone know more about this  How much to attend
 Here are some selected excerpts of the invitationregistration form they
 sent me Retyped without permission all typos are mine

Thanks for typing that in Steven  Sounds like a fall back and
regroup strategy session

I wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering
cover letter

Invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a
strong committment to space program development and have been
influential in its advancement  We sincerely hope you will be able to
attend

Wow I wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space
convinced them to send me this letter

I hope you decide to go Pat  The Net can use some eyes and ears
there

Bill Higgins            If we can put a man on the Moon why cant
Fermilab                we put a man on the Moon  Bill Engfer
higginsfnalfnalgov   If we can put a man on the Moon why cant
higginsfnalBitnet     we put a woman on the Moon  Bill Higgins

preprocess doc  From: rick@trystro.uucp (Richard Nickle)
Subject: Re: How to read sci.space without netnews
Organization: The Trystro System (617) 625-7155 v.32/v.42bis
Lines: 27

In article <C5LJG5.17n.1@cs.cmu.edu> mwm+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Maimone) writes:
>In article <734975852.F00001@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>>If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
>>but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
>>feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.	
>
>	Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
>large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts:  Space Digest.
>It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.
>
I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didn't
have email in the first place.

If anybody in the Boston area wants a sci.space feed by honest-to-gosh UUCP
(no weird offline malreaders), let me know.  I'll also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one, especially the Boston Chapter of NSS (which I keep forgetting
to re-attend).

>Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu
>-- 
>Mark Maimone				phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698
>Carnegie Mellon Computer Science	email: mwm@cmu.edu


-- 
richard nickle		rick@trystro.uucp	617-625-7155 v.32/v.42bis
			think!trystro!rick	somerville massachusetts

after prepro  From ricktrystrouucp Richard Nickle
Subject Re How to read scispace without netnews
Organization The Trystro System 617 6257155 v32v42bis
Lines 27

In article  mwmcscmuedu Mark Maimone writes
In article 734975852F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them	

	Kudos to Mark for his generous offer but there already exists a
large emailbased forwarding system for scispace posts  Space Digest
It mirrors scispace exactly and provides simple twoway communication

I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didnt
have email in the first place

If anybody in the Boston area wants a scispace feed by honesttogosh UUCP
no weird offline malreaders let me know  Ill also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one especially the Boston Chapter of NSS which I keep forgetting
to reattend

Questions comments to spacerequestisuisunetedu
 
Mark Maimone				phone 1 412 268  7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science	email mwmcmuedu


 
richard nickle		ricktrystrouucp	6176257155 v32v42bis
			thinktrystrorick	somerville massachusetts

preprocess doc  From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re)
Subject: A fundamental contradiction (was: A visit from JWs)
Reply-To: lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA
Organization: MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines: 35

jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:

>"Will" is "self-determination".  In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God.  All "will", therefore, is "free will".

The above is probably not the most representative paragraph, but I
thought I'd hop on, anyway...

What strikes me as self-contradicting in the fable of Lucifer's
fall - which, by the way, I seem to recall to be more speculation
than based on biblical text, but my ex RCism may be showing - is
that, as Benedikt pointed out, Lucifer had perfect nature, yet he
had the free will to "choose" evil.  But where did that choice come
from?

We know from Genesis that Eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a
tempter which many assume was Satan, but how did Lucifer discover,
invent, create, call the action what you will, something that God
had not given origin to?

Also, where in the Bible is there mention of Lucifer's free will?
We make a big fuss about mankind having free will, but it strikes me
as being an after-the-fact rationalisation, and in fact, like
salvation, not one that all Christians believe in identically.

At least in my mind, salvation and free will are very tightly
coupled, but then my theology was Roman Catholic...

Still, how do theologian explain Lucifer's fall?  If Lucifer had
perfect nature (did man?) how could he fall?  How could he execute an
act that (a) contradicted his nature and (b) in effect cause evil to
exist for the first time?
-- 
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA) - tab stops at four.

after prepro  From lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re
Subject A fundamental contradiction was A visit from JWs
ReplyTo lucioproximaAltZA
Organization MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines 35

jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes

Will is selfdetermination  In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God  All will therefore is free will

The above is probably not the most representative paragraph but I
thought Id hop on anyway

What strikes me as selfcontradicting in the fable of Lucifers
fall  which by the way I seem to recall to be more speculation
than based on biblical text but my ex RCism may be showing  is
that as Benedikt pointed out Lucifer had perfect nature yet he
had the free will to choose evil  But where did that choice come
from

We know from Genesis that Eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a
tempter which many assume was Satan but how did Lucifer discover
invent create call the action what you will something that God
had not given origin to

Also where in the Bible is there mention of Lucifers free will
We make a big fuss about mankind having free will but it strikes me
as being an afterthefact rationalisation and in fact like
salvation not one that all Christians believe in identically

At least in my mind salvation and free will are very tightly
coupled but then my theology was Roman Catholic

Still how do theologian explain Lucifers fall  If Lucifer had
perfect nature did man how could he fall  How could he execute an
act that a contradicted his nature and b in effect cause evil to
exist for the first time
 
Lucio de Re lucioproximaAltZA  tab stops at four

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.191011.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 53
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <C4zHKw.3Dn@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <2736@snap> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
>>This bit interests me.  How much automatic control is there?  Is it
>>purely autonomous or is there some degree of ground control?
> 
> The "stick-and-rudder man" is always the onboard computer.  The computer
> normally gets its orders from a stored program, but they can be overridden
> from the ground.
> 
>>How is
>>the transition from aerodynamic flight (if thats what it is) to hover
>>accomplished?  This is the really new part...
> 
> It's also one of the tricky parts.  There are four different ideas, and
> DC-X will probably end up trying all of them.  (This is from talking to
> Mitch Burnside Clapp, who's one of the DC-X test pilots, at Making Orbit.)
> 
> (1) Pop a drogue chute from the nose, light the engines once the thing
> 	stabilizes base-first.  Simple and reliable.  Heavy shock loads
> 	on an area of structure that doesn't otherwise carry major loads.
> 	Needs a door in the "hot" part of the structure, a door whose
> 	operation is mission-critical.
> 
> (2) Switch off pitch stability -- the DC is aerodynamically unstable at
> 	subsonic speeds -- wait for it to flip, and catch it at 180
> 	degrees, then light engines.  A bit scary.
> 
> (3) Light the engines and use thrust vectoring to push the tail around.
> 	Probably the preferred method in the long run.  Tricky because
> 	of the fuel-feed plumbing:  the fuel will start off in the tops
> 	of the tanks, then slop down to the bottoms during the flip.
> 	Keeping the engines properly fed will be complicated.
> 
> (4) Build up speed in a dive, then pull up hard (losing a lot of speed,
> 	this thing's L/D is not that great) until it's headed up and
> 	the vertical velocity drops to zero, at which point it starts
> 	to fall tail-first.  Light engines.  Also a bit scary, and you
> 	probably don't have enough altitude left to try again.
> -- 
> All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>                     - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
Why do the Martian Landing thing..  Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).

Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

Please enlighten me... Ignorance is easy to correct. make a mistake and
everyone will let you know you messed up..

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51910111
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 53
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 In article 2736snap pajukcogecmrc Paul Johnson writes
This bit interests me  How much automatic control is there  Is it
purely autonomous or is there some degree of ground control
 
 The stickandrudder man is always the onboard computer  The computer
 normally gets its orders from a stored program but they can be overridden
 from the ground
 
How is
the transition from aerodynamic flight if thats what it is to hover
accomplished  This is the really new part
 
 Its also one of the tricky parts  There are four different ideas and
 DCX will probably end up trying all of them  This is from talking to
 Mitch Burnside Clapp whos one of the DCX test pilots at Making Orbit
 
 1 Pop a drogue chute from the nose light the engines once the thing
 	stabilizes basefirst  Simple and reliable  Heavy shock loads
 	on an area of structure that doesnt otherwise carry major loads
 	Needs a door in the hot part of the structure a door whose
 	operation is missioncritical
 
 2 Switch off pitch stability  the DC is aerodynamically unstable at
 	subsonic speeds  wait for it to flip and catch it at 180
 	degrees then light engines  A bit scary
 
 3 Light the engines and use thrust vectoring to push the tail around
 	Probably the preferred method in the long run  Tricky because
 	of the fuelfeed plumbing  the fuel will start off in the tops
 	of the tanks then slop down to the bottoms during the flip
 	Keeping the engines properly fed will be complicated
 
 4 Build up speed in a dive then pull up hard losing a lot of speed
 	this things LD is not that great until its headed up and
 	the vertical velocity drops to zero at which point it starts
 	to fall tailfirst  Light engines  Also a bit scary and you
 	probably dont have enough altitude left to try again
  
 All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                      Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way
Why do the Martian Landing thing  Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious

Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts Parachute in then


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

Please enlighten me Ignorance is easy to correct make a mistake and
everyone will let you know you messed up

preprocess doc  From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 21

nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

>Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
>Why not?? If you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be
>activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion
>beacon, to take a directional plot on??

>Wierd or what?
>==
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

There is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites
in the process of being phased out right now. The TRANSIT/OSCAR satellites
are being replaced by GPS. Or were you thinking of deep space navigation,
which is best done with doppler/VLBI/ stellar measurements. I do not think
additional radio beacons would help much.
--
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca

after prepro  From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 21

nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
Why not If you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion
beacon to take a directional plot on

Wierd or what

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

There is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites
in the process of being phased out right now The TRANSITOSCAR satellites
are being replaced by GPS Or were you thinking of deep space navigation
which is best done with dopplerVLBI stellar measurements I do not think
additional radio beacons would help much

Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca

preprocess doc  From: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov (James Felder)
Subject: Re: "So help you God" in court?
Organization: NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Reply-To: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper3.lerc.nasa.gov

In article 013423TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu, Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
->In article <1993Apr9.151914.1885@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu
->(Mark McCullough) says:
->>
->>In article <monack.733980580@helium> monack@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (david
->>n->>monack) writes:
->>>Another issue is that by having to request to not be required to
->>>recite the "so help me God" part of the oath, a theistic jury may be
->>>prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not
->>>at all relevant to the case.
->>>
->>>What is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or
->>>affirmation?
->>>
->>>Dave

Sorry for using a follow-up to respond, but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news
when it couldn't keep up.

When the you are asked to swear "So help you god" and you have to say it, ask which one; Jesus,
Allah, Vishnu, Zues, Odin.  Get them to be specific.   Don't be obnoxious, just humbly ask, then 
quitely sit back and watch the fun.

---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James L. Felder			|
Sverdrup Technology,Inc.	|     phone: 216-891-4019
NASA Lewis Research Center     	|    
Cleveland, Ohio  44135         	|     email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov 
"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------




after prepro  From spbachlercnasagov James Felder
Subject Re So help you God in court
Organization NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines 35
Distribution world
ReplyTo spbachlercnasagov
NNTPPostingHost hopper3lercnasagov

In article 013423TAN102psuvmpsuedu Andrew Newell  writes
In article 1993Apr91519141885daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu
Mark McCullough says

In article  monackheliumgasuugarizonaedu david
nmonack writes
Another issue is that by having to request to not be required to
recite the so help me God part of the oath a theistic jury may be
prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not
at all relevant to the case

What is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or
affirmation

Dave

Sorry for using a followup to respond but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news
when it couldnt keep up

When the you are asked to swear So help you god and you have to say it ask which one Jesus
Allah Vishnu Zues Odin  Get them to be specific   Dont be obnoxious just humbly ask then 
quitely sit back and watch the fun




James L Felder			
Sverdrup TechnologyInc	     phone 2168914019
NASA Lewis Research Center     	    
Cleveland Ohio  44135         	     email jfelderlercnasagov 
Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle





preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1993Apr19.231641.21652@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:

>The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr. Maurice Bucaille is that
>while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for
>a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
>(or anywhere in the Qur'an).

	There is no notion of heliocentric, or even galacticentric either.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
		
		"My sole intention was learning to fly."

after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1993Apr1923164121652monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes

The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for
a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
or anywhere in the Quran

	There is no notion of heliocentric or even galacticentric either




		
		My sole intention was learning to fly

preprocess doc  From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 31

keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>>instead.  The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>>Why wait until they commit the crime?  Why not implant such devices in
>>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?

>Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning.  You are proposing to punish people
>*before* they commit a crime?  What justification do you have for this?

No, Mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism, not treating the
electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer. What he is saying is that
the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential
criminals.  This may not, on the surface, sound like a bad thing, but who
defines what a potential criminal is? If the government of the day decides
that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal
then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice, this is not
conducive to a free society.

Mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people
is an impropriety upon that person, regardless of what type of crime or
what chance of recidivism there is. Basically you see the criminal justice
system as a punishment for the offender and possibly, therefore, a deterrant
to future offenders. Mathew sees it, most probably, as a means of
rehabilitation for the offender. So he was being cynical at you, okay?

Jeff.


after prepro  From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re mathew  writes

Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead  The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime  Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists

Sorry I dont follow your reasoning  You are proposing to punish people
before they commit a crime  What justification do you have for this

No Mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism not treating the
electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer What he is saying is that
the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential
criminals  This may not on the surface sound like a bad thing but who
defines what a potential criminal is If the government of the day decides
that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal
then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice this is not
conducive to a free society

Mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people
is an impropriety upon that person regardless of what type of crime or
what chance of recidivism there is Basically you see the criminal justice
system as a punishment for the offender and possibly therefore a deterrant
to future offenders Mathew sees it most probably as a means of
rehabilitation for the offender So he was being cynical at you okay

Jeff


preprocess doc  From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Association Against Having Fun With Your Clothes On
Lines: 23

In article <1993Apr5.020504.19326@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
[...]
>One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
>God a form.  God does not have a "face".

Wait a minute.  I thought you said that Allah (I presume Allah == God) was unknowable,
and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him.

You say that God does not have a "face".  Doesn't the bible say that God has hindparts?

How do you suggest I decide which (if any) of you is right?  Or are you both right?
God has hindparts but no face?  Or does your use of quotation marks:

	God does not have a "face".

allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like?

>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder

-Norman

after prepro  From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Association Against Having Fun With Your Clothes On
Lines 23

In article 1993Apr502050419326ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
[]
One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
God a form  God does not have a face

Wait a minute  I thought you said that Allah I presume Allah  God was unknowable
and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him

You say that God does not have a face  Doesnt the bible say that God has hindparts

How do you suggest I decide which if any of you is right  Or are you both right
God has hindparts but no face  Or does your use of quotation marks

	God does not have a face

allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like


Peace

Bobby Mozumder

Norman

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 78

In <1993Apr2.150038.2521@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

>In article <1993Apr1.204657.29451@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>>This system would produce enough energy to drive the accelerator,
>>>perhaps with some left over.  A very high power (100's of MW CW or
>>>quasi CW), very sharp proton beam would be required, but this appears
>>>achievable using a linear accelerator.  The biggest question mark
>>>would be the lead target chemistry and the on-line processing of all
>>>the elements being incinerated.
>>
>>Paul, quite frankly I'll believe that this is really going to work on
>>the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
>>tons in one end and get (relatively) clean material out the other end,
>>plus be able to run it off its own residual power.  Sounds almost like
>>perpetual motion, doesn't it?

>Fred, the honest thing to do would be to admit your criticism on
>scientific grounds was invalid, rather than pretend you were actually
>talking about engineering feasibility.  Given you postings, I can't
>say I am surprised, though.

Well, pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just
tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying
to recover the energy from this process (which is at least trying to
go the 'right' way on the energy curve).  Now, where *did* I put those
sackcloth and ashes?

[I was not and am not 'pretending' anything; I am *so* pleased you are
not surprised, though.]

>No, it is nothing like perpetual motion.  

Note that I didn't say it was perpetual motion, or even that it
sounded like perpetual motion; the phrase was "sounds almost like
perpetual motion", which I, at least, consider a somewhat different
propposition than the one you elect to criticize.  Perhaps I should
beg your pardon for being *too* precise in my use of language?

>The physics is well
>understood; the energy comes from fission of actinides in subcritical
>assemblies.  Folks have talked about spallation reactors since the
>1950s.  Pulsed spallation neutron sources are in use today as research
>tools.  Accelerator design has been improving, particularly with
>superconducting accelerating cavities, which helps feasibility.  Los
>Alamos has expertise in high current accelerators (LAMPF), so I
>believe they know what they are talking about.

I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different 'run' for each
actinide) when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
(relatively) clean material out the other.  Once the costs,
technological risks, etc., are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun.  Sure, it's possible
and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable
approach? 

And I still wonder at what sort of 'burning' rate you could get with
something like this, as opposed to what kind of energy you would
really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power
with and without the energy recovery.  Are we talking ounces, pounds,
or tons (grams, kilograms, or metric tons, for you SI fans) of
material and are we talking days, weeks, months, or years (days,
weeks, months or years, for you SI fans -- hmmm, still using a
non-decimated time scale, I see  ;-))?

>The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
>built is that there isn't any reason to do so.  Natural uranium is
>still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
>technically reasonable.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 78

In 1993Apr21500382521csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes

In article 1993Apr120465729451mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes

This system would produce enough energy to drive the accelerator
perhaps with some left over  A very high power 100s of MW CW or
quasi CW very sharp proton beam would be required but this appears
achievable using a linear accelerator  The biggest question mark
would be the lead target chemistry and the online processing of all
the elements being incinerated

Paul quite frankly Ill believe that this is really going to work on
the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end
plus be able to run it off its own residual power  Sounds almost like
perpetual motion doesnt it

Fred the honest thing to do would be to admit your criticism on
scientific grounds was invalid rather than pretend you were actually
talking about engineering feasibility  Given you postings I cant
say I am surprised though

Well pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just
tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying
to recover the energy from this process which is at least trying to
go the right way on the energy curve  Now where did I put those
sackcloth and ashes

[I was not and am not pretending anything I am so pleased you are
not surprised though]

No it is nothing like perpetual motion  

Note that I didnt say it was perpetual motion or even that it
sounded like perpetual motion the phrase was sounds almost like
perpetual motion which I at least consider a somewhat different
propposition than the one you elect to criticize  Perhaps I should
beg your pardon for being too precise in my use of language

The physics is well
understood the energy comes from fission of actinides in subcritical
assemblies  Folks have talked about spallation reactors since the
1950s  Pulsed spallation neutron sources are in use today as research
tools  Accelerator design has been improving particularly with
superconducting accelerating cavities which helps feasibility  Los
Alamos has expertise in high current accelerators LAMPF so I
believe they know what they are talking about

I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different run for each
actinide when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
relatively clean material out the other  Once the costs
technological risks etc are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun  Sure its possible
and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable
approach 

And I still wonder at what sort of burning rate you could get with
something like this as opposed to what kind of energy you would
really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power
with and without the energy recovery  Are we talking ounces pounds
or tons grams kilograms or metric tons for you SI fans of
material and are we talking days weeks months or years days
weeks months or years for you SI fans  hmmm still using a
nondecimated time scale I see  

The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
built is that there isnt any reason to do so  Natural uranium is
still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
technically reasonable

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 191
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>Much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself,
>this is probably the wrong group for it.  The only relevance here
>is that you don't seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment
>actually is, and when it is murder.  That is, when you tell us murder
>is wrong, you are using a term you have not yet defined.

Well, I've said that when an innocent person has been executed, this is
objectively a murder.  However, who is at blame is another question.
It seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions--
realizing the risks--is to blame.

>There is a *probability* of 
>killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air, and 
>there is a *probability* of killing an innocent person when the
>state administers a system of capital punishment.  So when you do
>either, you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or 
>later result in the killing of an innocent person.

Yes, but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing
any raondom activity.  Presumably, you had not isolated yourself totally
from the rest of society because of this.

>>And, driving will kill people, as will airlines, but people continue to do
>>both.
>Driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling
>prisoners by Courts.  They are risks that we take upon ourselves
>willingly.

And I argue that our law system is a similar risk.  Perhaps an innocent
person will be punished someday, but we work to prevent this.  In fact,
many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment
of innocents.

>If our own driving kills someone else, then sure, there is a moral
>issue.  I know at least one person who was involved in a fatal
>accident, and they felt vey guilty afterwards.

But, such accidents are to be totally expected, given the numner of vehicals
on the road.  Again, the blame is on society.

>>No I'm not.  This is what you said.  You were saying that if there were such
>>a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed
>>, it would still be the fault of the state, since it did the actual killing.
>No, I just commented that the state does the killing.  It does not
>depend on there being false witnesses.  How could it?  The state
>does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes

Yes, but the state is not at fault in such a case.  The state can only do
so much to prevent false witnesses.

>>It is possible.  So, what are you trying to say, that capital punishment
>>is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating
>>the system?
>I'm saying capital punishment is murder, period.  Not because of
>this that and the other, but because it involves taking human life.
>That's *my* definition of murder.  I make no appeals to dictionaries
>or to "objective" morals.

Okay, so this is what you call murder.  But, the question is whether or not
all such "murders" are wrong.  Are you saying that all taking of human life
is wrong, no matter what the circumstances?

>If we, as a society, decide to murder someone, then we should say
>that, and lists our reasons for doing so, and live with the moral
>consequences.  We should not play word games and pretend that
>murder isn't murder.  And that's *my* opinion about how society
>ought to be run.

But, this is basically how it works.  Society accepts the risk that an
innocent person will be murdered by execution.  And, every member of
society shares this blame.  And, most people's definitions of murder
include some sort of malicious intent, which is not involved in an
execution, is it?

>>But, we were trying to discuss an objective moral system, or at least its
>>possibilty.  What ramifications does your personal system have on an
>>objective one?
>No, we were not discussing an objective moral system.  I was showing
>you that you didn't have one, because, for one thing, you were incapable
>of defining the terms in it, for example, "murder".

Murder violates the golden rule.  Executions do not, because by allowing
it at all, society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the
innocent victim is.

>>We're not talking about reading minds, we are just talking about knowing the
>>truth.  Yes, we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth, but
>>the court systems work on a principle of knowing the "truth" "beyond a
>>reasonable doubt."  
>Sorry, but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately.  Here
>is what you said:
>	"And, since we are looking totally objectively at this case,
>	then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to
>	execute the person or not.  If the intent is malicious and 
>	unfair, then the execution would be murder."
>What you are doing now is to slide into another claim, which is
>quite different.  The jury being *persuaded* beyond a serious
>doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond
>a serious doubt.

Reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction
was moral or not.  But, in an objective system, only the absolute truth
matters, and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth.  That
is, twelve members must be convinced of a truth.

>Moreover, a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background
>may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence
>that you and I would laugh at.

But then, if we read the minds of these people, we would know that the
conviction was unfair.

>>But, would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds?  If we assume that
>>it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth, why is it so much less
>>fair, in your opinion, if we only have a good approximation of the absolute
>>truth?
>It's not a question of fairness.  Your claim, which I have quoted
>above is a claim about whether we can *know* it was fair, so as to
>be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder.

Yes, while we could objectively determine the difference (if we knew all
possible information), we can't always determine the difference in our
flawed system.  I think that our system is almost as good as possible,
but it still isn't objectively perfect.  You see, it doesn't matter if
we *know* it is fair or not.  Objectively, it is either fair or it is not.

>Now there's a huge difference.  If we can read minds, we can know,
>and if we cannot read minds, we can know nothing.  The difference
>is not in degree of fairness, but in what we can know.

But what we know has no effect on an objective system.

>>I think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system, if we are
>>clear on which goals it is supposed to promote.
>I'm not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that I am
>pretty sure does not exist.

Why are you so sure?

>I simply want people to confront reality.  *My* reality, remember.

Why is *your* reality important?

>In this case, the reality is that, "ideal theories' apart, we can
>never know, even after the fact, about the fairness of the justice
>system.  For every innocent person released from Death Row, there
>may have been a dozen innocent people executed, or a hundred, or
>none at all.  We simply don't know.

But, we can assume that the system is fairly decent, at least most likely.
And, you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a
totally ideal and objective system.

>Now what are we going to do?  On the one hand, we can pretend
>that we have an 'ideal' theory, and that we can know things we can
>never know, and the Justie System is fair, and that we can wave a 
>magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder, and go 
>on our way.

Well, we can have an ideal system, but the working system can not be ideal.
We can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to
the ideal system as possible.

>On the other hand, we can recognize that all Justice has a small
>- we hope - probability of punishing the innocent, and that in the
>end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic
>consequences of the systems we set up, and then say, "Well, here
>we go, murdering again."  Maybe some of us will even say "Gee, I
>wonder if all this is strictly necessary?"

Yes, we all bear the responsibility.  Most people seem willing to do this.

>I think that the second is preferable in that if requires people
>to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society, instead
>of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word 
>games.

We must realize the consequences of all our actions.  Why do you keep
separating the justice system from the pack?

>And lest I forget, I also don't think we have an objective moral
>system, and I believe I only have to take that idea seriously
>when someone presents evidence of it.

I don't think our country has an objective system, but I think such an
objective system can exist, in theory.  Without omniscience, an objective
system is not possible in practice.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself
this is probably the wrong group for it  The only relevance here
is that you dont seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment
actually is and when it is murder  That is when you tell us murder
is wrong you are using a term you have not yet defined

Well Ive said that when an innocent person has been executed this is
objectively a murder  However who is at blame is another question
It seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions
realizing the risksis to blame

There is a probability of 
killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air and 
there is a probability of killing an innocent person when the
state administers a system of capital punishment  So when you do
either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or 
later result in the killing of an innocent person

Yes but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing
any raondom activity  Presumably you had not isolated yourself totally
from the rest of society because of this

And driving will kill people as will airlines but people continue to do
both
Driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling
prisoners by Courts  They are risks that we take upon ourselves
willingly

And I argue that our law system is a similar risk  Perhaps an innocent
person will be punished someday but we work to prevent this  In fact
many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment
of innocents

If our own driving kills someone else then sure there is a moral
issue  I know at least one person who was involved in a fatal
accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards

But such accidents are to be totally expected given the numner of vehicals
on the road  Again the blame is on society

No Im not  This is what you said  You were saying that if there were such
a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed
 it would still be the fault of the state since it did the actual killing
No I just commented that the state does the killing  It does not
depend on there being false witnesses  How could it  The state
does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes

Yes but the state is not at fault in such a case  The state can only do
so much to prevent false witnesses

It is possible  So what are you trying to say that capital punishment
is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating
the system
Im saying capital punishment is murder period  Not because of
this that and the other but because it involves taking human life
Thats my definition of murder  I make no appeals to dictionaries
or to objective morals

Okay so this is what you call murder  But the question is whether or not
all such murders are wrong  Are you saying that all taking of human life
is wrong no matter what the circumstances

If we as a society decide to murder someone then we should say
that and lists our reasons for doing so and live with the moral
consequences  We should not play word games and pretend that
murder isnt murder  And thats my opinion about how society
ought to be run

But this is basically how it works  Society accepts the risk that an
innocent person will be murdered by execution  And every member of
society shares this blame  And most peoples definitions of murder
include some sort of malicious intent which is not involved in an
execution is it

But we were trying to discuss an objective moral system or at least its
possibilty  What ramifications does your personal system have on an
objective one
No we were not discussing an objective moral system  I was showing
you that you didnt have one because for one thing you were incapable
of defining the terms in it for example murder

Murder violates the golden rule  Executions do not because by allowing
it at all society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the
innocent victim is

Were not talking about reading minds we are just talking about knowing the
truth  Yes we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth but
the court systems work on a principle of knowing the truth beyond a
reasonable doubt  
Sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately  Here
is what you said
	And since we are looking totally objectively at this case
	then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to
	execute the person or not  If the intent is malicious and 
	unfair then the execution would be murder
What you are doing now is to slide into another claim which is
quite different  The jury being persuaded beyond a serious
doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond
a serious doubt

Reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction
was moral or not  But in an objective system only the absolute truth
matters and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth  That
is twelve members must be convinced of a truth

Moreover a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background
may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence
that you and I would laugh at

But then if we read the minds of these people we would know that the
conviction was unfair

But would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds  If we assume that
it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth why is it so much less
fair in your opinion if we only have a good approximation of the absolute
truth
Its not a question of fairness  Your claim which I have quoted
above is a claim about whether we can know it was fair so as to
be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder

Yes while we could objectively determine the difference if we knew all
possible information we cant always determine the difference in our
flawed system  I think that our system is almost as good as possible
but it still isnt objectively perfect  You see it doesnt matter if
we know it is fair or not  Objectively it is either fair or it is not

Now theres a huge difference  If we can read minds we can know
and if we cannot read minds we can know nothing  The difference
is not in degree of fairness but in what we can know

But what we know has no effect on an objective system

I think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system if we are
clear on which goals it is supposed to promote
Im not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that I am
pretty sure does not exist

Why are you so sure

I simply want people to confront reality  My reality remember

Why is your reality important

In this case the reality is that ideal theories apart we can
never know even after the fact about the fairness of the justice
system  For every innocent person released from Death Row there
may have been a dozen innocent people executed or a hundred or
none at all  We simply dont know

But we can assume that the system is fairly decent at least most likely
And you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a
totally ideal and objective system

Now what are we going to do  On the one hand we can pretend
that we have an ideal theory and that we can know things we can
never know and the Justie System is fair and that we can wave a 
magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder and go 
on our way

Well we can have an ideal system but the working system can not be ideal
We can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to
the ideal system as possible

On the other hand we can recognize that all Justice has a small
 we hope  probability of punishing the innocent and that in the
end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic
consequences of the systems we set up and then say Well here
we go murdering again  Maybe some of us will even say Gee I
wonder if all this is strictly necessary

Yes we all bear the responsibility  Most people seem willing to do this

I think that the second is preferable in that if requires people
to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society instead
of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word 
games

We must realize the consequences of all our actions  Why do you keep
separating the justice system from the pack

And lest I forget I also dont think we have an objective moral
system and I believe I only have to take that idea seriously
when someone presents evidence of it

I dont think our country has an objective system but I think such an
objective system can exist in theory  Without omniscience an objective
system is not possible in practice

keith

preprocess doc  From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: First Spacewalk
Distribution: sci
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 13

In article <C5suMG.2rF.1@cs.cmu.edu+ flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:
+At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
+(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
+
+Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
+
+Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?

I, for one, would be an avid reader of a sci.space.ussr.what.really.
happened.

-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131

after prepro  From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re First Spacewalk
Distribution sci
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 13

In article C5suMG2rF1cscmuedu flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
Alexei Leonov  was a staged fake

Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged 

Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination 

I for one would be an avid reader of a scispaceussrwhatreally
happened

 
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Requests
Lines: 53
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 53

In article <11857@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: Requests
>Date: 19 Apr 93 18:25:08 GMT
>In article <C5qLLG.4BC@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>>
(excess stuff deleted...)

    
>  However, it seems that a local church elder has been getting
>  revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level
>  the area on May 3rd.  He has independent corroboration from
>  several friends, who apparently have had similar revelations.  The
>  5.7 quake was, in fact, in response to a request from the lot of
>  them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions.
>
>  None of this would be terribly interesting, except for the amount
>  of stir it has created in the area.  Many, many people are taking
>  these claims very seriously.  There are some making plans to be
>  out of the are on the target date.  My local religious radio
>  station devoted 4 hours of discussion on the topic.  
>
>  I even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the
>  host that he would have a full account of my conversion on May
>  4th, provided my family and I survived the devastation and ruin
>  that will invariably follow the quake.
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know of a similar incident about 3 years ago.  A climatologist( Ithink 
that was his profession) named Iben Browning predicted that an earthquake 
would hit the New Madrid fault on Dec.3.  Some schools in Missouri that were 
on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day.  Many people 
evacuated New Madrid and other towns in teh are.  I wouldn't be suprised if 
there were more journalists in the area than residents.  Of course, teh 
earthquake never occured.  HOw do I know about his?  I used to live in 
Southern Illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the 
fault line.  No we still had school... We laughed at the poor idiots who 
believed the prediction. :):):):)

Bob, if you're wanting an excuse to convert to Christianity, you gonna have 
to look elsewhere.

Tammy "No Trim" Healy



after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Requests
Lines 53
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 53

In article 11857viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Requests
Date 19 Apr 93 182508 GMT
In article  maynecsfsuedu writes

excess stuff deleted

    
  However it seems that a local church elder has been getting
  revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level
  the area on May 3rd  He has independent corroboration from
  several friends who apparently have had similar revelations  The
  57 quake was in fact in response to a request from the lot of
  them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions

  None of this would be terribly interesting except for the amount
  of stir it has created in the area  Many many people are taking
  these claims very seriously  There are some making plans to be
  out of the are on the target date  My local religious radio
  station devoted 4 hours of discussion on the topic  

  I even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the
  host that he would have a full account of my conversion on May
  4th provided my family and I survived the devastation and ruin
  that will invariably follow the quake

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know of a similar incident about 3 years ago  A climatologist Ithink 
that was his profession named Iben Browning predicted that an earthquake 
would hit the New Madrid fault on Dec3  Some schools in Missouri that were 
on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day  Many people 
evacuated New Madrid and other towns in teh are  I wouldnt be suprised if 
there were more journalists in the area than residents  Of course teh 
earthquake never occured  HOw do I know about his  I used to live in 
Southern Illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the 
fault line  No we still had school We laughed at the poor idiots who 
believed the prediction 

Bob if youre wanting an excuse to convert to Christianity you gonna have 
to look elsewhere

Tammy No Trim Healy



preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: sgi
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qjf31$o7t@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> In article <1qimbe$sp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #In article <1qif1g$fp3@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> #|> In article <1qialf$p2m@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #|> 
|> #|> I forget the origin of the quote, but "I gotta use words when I talk to
|> #|> you".  An atheist is one who lacks belief in gods, yes?  If so, then
|> #|> it's entirely plausible that an atheist could dig Lenin or Lennon to
|> #|> such an extent that it might be considered "worship", and still be
|> #|> an atheist.  Anything else seems to be Newspeak.
|> #
|> #Ask yourself the following question.   Would you regard an ardent
|> #Nazi as a republican, simply because Germany no longer had a Kaiser?
|> 
|> No, because that's based on false dichotomy.   There are more options
|> than you present me.  

And that, of course, is the point.   You can't simply divide the
world into atheists and non-atheists on the basis of god-belief.

If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity, and
have nothing to say about behaviour, then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion.

But once you start talking about behaviour, then someone's suscept-
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you 
are - I assume - worried about.

And in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical,
critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and
easily led on the other.

I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led.   Whether they have a worship or belief 
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization sgi
Lines 38
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1qjf31o7thorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 In article 1qimbespfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 In article 1qif1gfp3horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
  In article 1qialfp2mfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
  
  I forget the origin of the quote but I gotta use words when I talk to
  you  An atheist is one who lacks belief in gods yes  If so then
  its entirely plausible that an atheist could dig Lenin or Lennon to
  such an extent that it might be considered worship and still be
  an atheist  Anything else seems to be Newspeak
 
 Ask yourself the following question   Would you regard an ardent
 Nazi as a republican simply because Germany no longer had a Kaiser
 
 No because thats based on false dichotomy   There are more options
 than you present me  

And that of course is the point   You cant simply divide the
world into atheists and nonatheists on the basis of godbelief

If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity and
have nothing to say about behaviour then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion

But once you start talking about behaviour then someones suscept
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you 
are  I assume  worried about

And in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical
critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and
easily led on the other

I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led   Whether they have a worship or belief 
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point

jon

preprocess doc  From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 48
NNTP-Posting-Host: rtfm.sps.mot.com

In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
[deletions]
>
>The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie - any actions of
>Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
>the ruling. The book remains in circulation not by some independant
>will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. The fatwa
>against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well. The
>crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being
>played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media.
>
>P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>of the "fasad" ruling.

If this is grounded firmly in Islam, as you claim, then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism, plain and simple.

Whether you like it or not, whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not, there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words.

It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs, got that?
You do not threaten the life of someone for words - when you do, you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position.  If you support
threatening the life of someone for words, you are not yet civilized.

This is exactly where I, and many of the people I know, have to depart
from respecting the religions of others.  When those beliefs allow and
encourage (by interpretation) the killing of non-physical opposition.

You, or I or anyone, are more than privledged to believe that someone,
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover, is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn his/her soul, refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with him/her, _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the "miscreants", or whatever, short of physical force.

But once you physically threaten, or support physical threats, you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape - with YOU as the rapist
who whines "She asked for it, look how she was dressed".

Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn't fly.

Dew
-- 
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637

after prepro  From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Motorola Inc  AustinTX
Lines 48
NNTPPostingHost rtfmspsmotcom

In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
[deletions]

The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie  any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well The
crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being
played out and played up in the the full view of the media

PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling

If this is grounded firmly in Islam as you claim then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism plain and simple

Whether you like it or not whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words

It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs got that
You do not threaten the life of someone for words  when you do you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position  If you support
threatening the life of someone for words you are not yet civilized

This is exactly where I and many of the people I know have to depart
from respecting the religions of others  When those beliefs allow and
encourage by interpretation the killing of nonphysical opposition

You or I or anyone are more than privledged to believe that someone
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn hisher soul refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with himher _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the miscreants or whatever short of physical force

But once you physically threaten or support physical threats you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape  with YOU as the rapist
who whines She asked for it look how she was dressed

Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesnt fly

Dew
 
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637

preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: na
 <C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>
Lines: 119

In article <C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill
Conner) says:
>
>dean.kaflowitz (decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com) wrote:
>
>: Now, what I am interested in is the original notion you were discussing
>: on moral free agency.  That is, how can a god punish a person for
>: not believing in him when that person is only following his or her
>: nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or
>: her reason tells him or her, which is that there is no god?
>
>I think you're letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of

(WEBSTER:  myth:  "a traditional or legendary story...
           ...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.")

How does that qualify?
Indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance.
I've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as
"accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend.
Many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but
they don't meet the other criterions.
Also...

>Divine justice. According to the most fundamental doctrines of
>Christianity, When the first man sinned, he was at that time the

You accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to
launch your own xtian mythology.  (This time meeting all the
requirements of myth.)

>salvation. The idea of punishment is based on the proposition that
>everyone knows (instinctively?) that God exists, is their creator and

Ah, but not everyone "knows" that god exists.  So you have
a fallacy.

>There's nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to
>any reasonably Biblically literate Christian. The only controversy is

And that makes it true?  Holding with the Bible rules out controversy?
Read the FAQ.  If you've read it, you missed something, so re-read.
(Not a bad suggestion for anyone...I re-read it just before this.)

>with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
>means. When atheists claim that they do -not- know if God exists and
>don't know what He wants, they contradict the Bible which clearly says
>that -everyone- knows. The authority of the Bible is its claim to be

...should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
it across?  You may trust the Bible, but your trusting it doesn't
make it any more credible to me.

If the Bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason
to doubt the Bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged
god's alleged existance.

>refuted while the species-wide condemnation is justified. Those that
>claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
>unknown, must deliberately ignore the Bible; the ignorance itself is
>no excuse.

1) No, they don't have to ignore the Bible.  The Bible is far
from universally accepted.  The Bible is NOT a proof of god;
it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
was a god.  (Or does it prove even that?  They might have been
writing it as series of fiction short-stories.  As in the
case of Dionetics.)  Assuming the writers believed it, the
only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it.
And that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
interpretations and Biblical-philosophers were correct.

2) There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible.

3) Again, read the FAQ.

>freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
>ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
>in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only

Bzzt...wrong answer!
Gravity is directly THERE.  It doesn't stop exerting a direct and
rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it.  God, on the
other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except
on the tabloids.  God doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence.
Gravity is obvious; gods aren't.

>Secondly, human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God, so
>much so that it is, in itself, intrinsic to our nature. Human reason
>always comes back to the question of God, in every generation and in

No, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of
"God"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god".
In other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian
god, it comes back to whether there is any god.  And, in much
of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as
the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
are and which ones are out there.  From a world-wide view,
human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
be and/or what force(s) are currently in control.  A natural
tendancy to believe in "God" only exists in religious wishful
thinking.

>I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
>reasonable, that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
>different than what atheists think it is. Whether you agree or not

Xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions, and
it's reasonableness certainly doesn't merit eminence.
Divine justice...well, it only seems just to those who already
believe in the divinity.
First, not all atheists believe the same things about human
nature. Second, whether most atheists are correct or not,
YOU certainly are not correct on human nature.  You are, at
the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric
approach.  Try looking at the outside world as well when
you attempt to sum up all of humanity.

Andrew

after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell 
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution na
 
Lines 119

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill
Conner says

deankaflowitz decaycbnewsjcbattcom wrote

 Now what I am interested in is the original notion you were discussing
 on moral free agency  That is how can a god punish a person for
 not believing in him when that person is only following his or her
 nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or
 her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god

I think youre letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of

WEBSTER  myth  a traditional or legendary story
           a beliefwhose truth is accepted uncritically

How does that qualify
Indeed its almost oxymoronica rather amusing instance
Ive found that most atheists hold almost no atheistviews as
accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend
Many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but
they dont meet the other criterions
Also

Divine justice According to the most fundamental doctrines of
Christianity When the first man sinned he was at that time the

You accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to
launch your own xtian mythology  This time meeting all the
requirements of myth

salvation The idea of punishment is based on the proposition that
everyone knows instinctively that God exists is their creator and

Ah but not everyone knows that god exists  So you have
a fallacy

Theres nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to
any reasonably Biblically literate Christian The only controversy is

And that makes it true  Holding with the Bible rules out controversy
Read the FAQ  If youve read it you missed something so reread
Not a bad suggestion for anyoneI reread it just before this

with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
means When atheists claim that they do not know if God exists and
dont know what He wants they contradict the Bible which clearly says
that everyone knows The authority of the Bible is its claim to be

should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
it across  You may trust the Bible but your trusting it doesnt
make it any more credible to me

If the Bible says that everyone knows thats clearly reason
to doubt the Bible because not everyone knows your alleged
gods alleged existance

refuted while the specieswide condemnation is justified Those that
claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
unknown must deliberately ignore the Bible the ignorance itself is
no excuse

1 No they dont have to ignore the Bible  The Bible is far
from universally accepted  The Bible is NOT a proof of god
it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
was a god  Or does it prove even that  They might have been
writing it as series of fiction shortstories  As in the
case of Dionetics  Assuming the writers believed it the
only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it
And thats ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
interpretations and Biblicalphilosophers were correct

2 There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible

3 Again read the FAQ

freedom You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
in both cases That an atheist cant accept the evidence means only

Bzztwrong answer
Gravity is directly THERE  It doesnt stop exerting a direct and
rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it  God on the
other hand doesnt generally show up in the supermarket except
on the tabloids  God doesnt exert a rationally undeniable influence
Gravity is obvious gods arent

Secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God so
much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature Human reason
always comes back to the question of God in every generation and in

No human reason hasnt always come back to the existance of
God it has usually come back to the existance of god
In other words it doesnt generally come back to the xtian
god it comes back to whether there is any god  And in much
of oriental philosophic history it generally doesnt pop up as
the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
are and which ones are out there  From a worldwide view
human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
be andor what forces are currently in control  A natural
tendancy to believe in God only exists in religious wishful
thinking

I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
reasonable that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
different than what atheists think it is Whether you agree or not

Xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions and
its reasonableness certainly doesnt merit eminence
Divine justicewell it only seems just to those who already
believe in the divinity
First not all atheists believe the same things about human
nature Second whether most atheists are correct or not
YOU certainly are not correct on human nature  You are at
the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric
approach  Try looking at the outside world as well when
you attempt to sum up all of humanity

Andrew

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: sgi
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1ql6jiINN5df@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|> 
|> >>Look, I'm not the one that made those Nazi comparisons.  Other people
|> >>compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany.  They
|> >>have said that it started out with little things (but no one really knew
|> >>about any of these "little" things, strangely enough) and grew to bigger
|> >>things.  They said that the motto is but one of the little things 
|> >You just contradicted yourself.  The motto is one of those little things that
|> >nobody has bothered mentiopning to you, huh?
|> 
|> The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
|> said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
|> They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
|> weren't going to waste their time repeating them.  Sounds to me like no one
|> knew, either.  I looked in some books, but to no avail.

That's not true.    I gave you two examples.   One was the rather
pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived.   The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
of the population.

Neither of these were very terrible in themselves, but both helped
to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of Jews
was made easier.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
 
 Look Im not the one that made those Nazi comparisons  Other people
 compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany  They
 have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew
 about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger
 things  They said that the motto is but one of the little things 
 You just contradicted yourself  The motto is one of those little things that
 nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh
 
 The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly  People
 said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
 They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
 werent going to waste their time repeating them  Sounds to me like no one
 knew either  I looked in some books but to no avail

Thats not true    I gave you two examples   One was the rather
pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived   The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
of the population

Neither of these were very terrible in themselves but both helped
to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of Jews
was made easier

jon

preprocess doc  From: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: oit.gatech.edu

In article <844@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:

>	Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria?  I figure
>that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
>Any comments?

Sure.  Why keep using oil?  A hydrogen/electric economy would likely be
cleaner and more efficient in the long run.  The laws of supply and demand
should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of
shortage.
-- 
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew
Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu

after prepro  From matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost oitgatechedu

In article 844rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes

	Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria  I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
Any comments

Sure  Why keep using oil  A hydrogenelectric economy would likely be
cleaner and more efficient in the long run  The laws of supply and demand
should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of
shortage
 
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta Georgia 30332
uucp	  decvaxhplabsncarpurduerutgersgatechprismmatthew
Internet matthewphantomgatechedu

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 41

In article <C5HKv2.Epv@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>In article <115256@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>>Judaism, for one. Maddi has confirmed this for one. And again I
>>reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time,
>>simply by making a public declaration. If one is too lazy to do
>>that then the religion cannot be held responsible.

>There are many "Islamic" countries where publically renouncing Islam can be
>quite dangerous.  These countries might not, according to you, necessarily be
>practicing "true" Islam, but the danger still remains; one cannot blame
>failure to publically renounce Islam on "laziness" as opposed to a desire to
>stay alive and well.

Of course, if you're planning to pull a Rushdie then declaring one's
leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one's
other plans.


In Rushdie's case, the one under discussion, one can. It is tragic that
in _some_ "Islamic" countries this is so. There are, however, Islamic
countries (whose constitutions contains statements that Islamic law is
to be incorporated), e.g. Kuwait, where one can freely make such
statements without fear.


>Not to mention that it has already been pointed out that Rushdie has said in
>his books that he's not a Muslim, and there have surely been enough readers of
>his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses.

This story has become tiresome. The conditions are clear. If you care to
make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made
public statements about leaving Islam prior to his writing of _TSV_. If
he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather
than trying to rejoin Islam or go on talking about his personal
feelings.



Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 41

In article  arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes

In article 115256buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Judaism for one Maddi has confirmed this for one And again I
reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time
simply by making a public declaration If one is too lazy to do
that then the religion cannot be held responsible

There are many Islamic countries where publically renouncing Islam can be
quite dangerous  These countries might not according to you necessarily be
practicing true Islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame
failure to publically renounce Islam on laziness as opposed to a desire to
stay alive and well

Of course if youre planning to pull a Rushdie then declaring ones
leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to ones
other plans


In Rushdies case the one under discussion one can It is tragic that
in _some_ Islamic countries this is so There are however Islamic
countries whose constitutions contains statements that Islamic law is
to be incorporated eg Kuwait where one can freely make such
statements without fear


Not to mention that it has already been pointed out that Rushdie has said in
his books that hes not a Muslim and there have surely been enough readers of
his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses

This story has become tiresome The conditions are clear If you care to
make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made
public statements about leaving Islam prior to his writing of _TSV_ If
he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather
than trying to rejoin Islam or go on talking about his personal
feelings



Gregg

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
In-Reply-To: <930416.141520.7h1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 15

>DATE:   Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:15:20 +0100
>FROM:   mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
>
>The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
>finished writing a sequel to the Bible.
>
>mathew

Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines.  He's already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING!.  I would expect any
decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker.  Maybe Koresh 2.0 will
come with one.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
InReplyTo 9304161415207h1rusnewsw165wmantiscouk
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 15

DATE   Fri 16 Apr 1993 141520 0100
FROM   mathew 

The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible

mathew

Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines  Hes already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING  I would expect any
decent messiah to have a builtin spellchecker  Maybe Koresh 20 will
come with one



preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: army in space
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space
Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce..

Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard..

I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen
Police)..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re army in space
Lines 13
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only Space
Command left The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce

Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard

I hate walking with a pack on my back and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker that you have done a lot of KP Kitchen
Police


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



WHile we are on the subject of the shuttle software.

what ever happened to the hypothesis  that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51-L.  to wit,  that during the
wind shear event,  the Flight control software  indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance  leading to an overstress of the struts.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



WHile we are on the subject of the shuttle software

what ever happened to the hypothesis  that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51L  to wit  that during the
wind shear event  the Flight control software  indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance  leading to an overstress of the struts

pat

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
Summary: Includes a list of logical fallacies
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, argument, fallacies, logic
Expires: Thu, 20 May 1993 10:52:14 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930322114724@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 632

Archive-name: atheism/logic
Alt-atheism-archive-name: logic
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.4

                       Constructing a Logical Argument

Although there is much argument on Usenet, the general quality of argument
found is poor.  This article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to
logic, in the hope of improving the general level of debate.

Logic is the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference [Concise
OED].  Logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether
it is correct or not (valid or invalid).  Of course, one does not need to
study logic in order to reason correctly; nevertheless, a little basic
knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an
argument.

Note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally
applicable.  The matter is very much open for debate.  This document merely
explains how to use logic, given that you have already decided that logic is
the right tool for the job.

Propositions (or statements) are the building blocks of a logical argument. A
proposition is a statement which is either true or false; for example, "It is
raining" or "Today is Tuesday".  Propositions may be either asserted (said to
be true) or denied (said to be false).  Note that this is a technical meaning
of "deny", not the everyday meaning.

The proposition is the meaning of the statement, not the particular
arrangement of words used to express it.  So "God exists" and "There exists a
God" both express the same proposition.

An argument is, to quote the Monty Python sketch, "a connected series of
statements to establish a definite proposition".  An argument consists of
three stages.

First of all, the propositions which are necessary for the argument to
continue are stated.  These are called the premises of the argument.  They
are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions. 

Premises (or assertions) are often indicated by phrases such as "because",
"since", "obviously" and so on.  (The phrase "obviously" is often viewed with
suspicion, as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious
premises.  If something doesn't seem obvious to you, don't be afraid to
question it.  You can always say "Oh, yes, you're right, it is obvious" when
you've heard the explanation.)

Next, the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known
as inference.  In inference, one proposition is arrived at on the basis of
one or more other propositions already accepted.  There are various forms of
valid inference.

The propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further
inference.  Inference is often denoted by phrases such as "implies that" or
"therefore".

Finally, we arrive at the conclusion of the argument -- the proposition which
is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference.  Conclusions are often
indicated by phrases such as "therefore", "it follows that", "we conclude"
and so on.  The conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference.

For example:

Every event has a cause (premise)
The universe has a beginning (premise)
All beginnings involve an event (premise)
This implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event (inference)
Therefore the universe has a cause (inference and conclusion)

Note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another
argument.  A proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with
respect to a particular argument; the terms do not make sense in isolation.

Sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above; for example,
the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated 
afterwards in support of the conclusion.  This is perfectly valid, if 
sometimes a little confusing.

Recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or
conclusions.  Many people shower their writing with assertions without ever
producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument.  Some
statements look like arguments, but are not.  For example:

"If the Bible is accurate, Jesus must either have been insane, an evil liar,
 or the Son of God."

This is not an argument, it is a conditional statement.  It does not assert
the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its 
conclusion.  (It also suffers from a number of other logical flaws, but we'll
come to those later.)

Another example:

"God created you; therefore do your duty to God."

The phrase "do your duty to God" is not a proposition, since it is neither
true nor false.  Therefore it is not a conclusion, and the sentence is not an
argument.

Finally, causality is important.  Consider a statement of the form "A because
B".  If we're interested in establishing A and B is offered as evidence, the
statement is an argument.  If we're trying to establish the truth of B, then
it is not an argument, it is an explanation.

For example:

"There must be something wrong with the engine of my car, because it will not
 start." -- This is an argument.

"My car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine."
 -- This is an explanation.

There are two traditional types of argument, deductive and inductive.  A
deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions
-- that is, an argument where if the premises are true, the conclusion must
also be true.  A deductive argument is either valid or invalid.  A valid
argument is defined as one where if the premises are true, then the
conclusion is true.

An inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the
truth of the conclusion.  Inductive arguments are not valid or invalid;
however, we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other
arguments, and about how probable their premises are.

There are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive
nor inductive.  However, we will concentrate for the moment on deductive
arguments, as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing.

It is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does
not imply that its conclusion holds.  This is because of the slightly 
counter-intuitive nature of implication, which we must now consider more
carefully.

Obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions.  However, an
argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions. 
For example:

   All insects have wings (premise)
   Woodlice are insects (premise)
   Therefore woodlice have wings (conclusion)

Here, the conclusion is not true because the argument's premises are false. 
If the argument's premises were true, however, the conclusion would be true. 
The argument is thus entirely valid.

More subtly, we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises,
as in:

   All fish live in the sea (premise)
   Dolphins are fish (premise)
   Therefore dolphins live in the sea (conclusion)

However, the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid
inference from true premises.  We can therefore draw up a "truth table" for
implication.

The symbol "=>" denotes implication; "A" is the premise, "B" the conclusion. 
"T" and "F" represent true and false respectively.

Premise Conclusion Inference
   A        B        A=>B
----------------------------
   F        F         T      If the premises are false and the inference
   F        T         T      valid, the conclusion can be true or false.

   T        F         F      If the premises are true and the conclusion
                             false, the inference must be invalid.

   T        T         T      If the premises are true and the inference valid,
                             the conclusion must be true.

A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true.  A sound 
argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion.  Be careful not to confuse
valid arguments with sound arguments.

To delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require
lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy.  It is simpler and probably
more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing
an argument.  These pitfalls are known as fallacies.

In everyday English the term "fallacy" is used to refer to mistaken beliefs
as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs.  This is fair
enough, but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of
technically incorrect argument, especially if the argument appears valid or
convincing.

So for the purposes of this discussion, we define a fallacy as a logical
argument which appears to be correct, but which can be seen to be incorrect
when examined more closely.  By studying fallacies we aim to avoid being
misled by them.  The following list of fallacies is not intended to be
exhaustive.

ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM (APPEAL TO FORCE)

The Appeal to Force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the
threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion.  It
is often used by politicians, and can be summarized as "might makes right". 
The force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer.

For example:
"... Thus there is ample proof of the truth of the Bible.  All those who
refuse to accept that truth will burn in Hell."

ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM

Argumentum ad hominem is literally "argument directed at the man".

The Abusive variety of Argumentum ad Hominem occurs when, instead of trying
to disprove the truth of an assertion, the arguer attacks the person or
people making the assertion.  This is invalid because the truth of an
assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it.

For example:
"Atheism is an evil philosophy.  It is practised by Communists and murderers."

Sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by 
showing, for example, that he is a known perjurer.  This is a valid way of
reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness, and not
argumentum ad hominem; however, it does not demonstrate that the witness's
testimony is false.  To conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (see elsewhere in this list).

The circumstantial form of Argumentum ad Hominem is committed when a person
argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of
the opponent's particular circumstances.

For example:
"It is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food.  How can you argue
otherwise when you're quite happy to wear leather shoes?"

This is an abusive charge of inconsistency, used as an excuse for dismissing
the opponent's argument.

This fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion.  For 
example:

"Of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing. 
You're white."

This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when one alleges that one's
adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests, is
also known as "poisoning the well".

ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM

Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance".  This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false.  Or, equivalently, when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true.  (Note that this
is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved
true, a basic scientific principle.)

Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true.  Nobody can prove otherwise."

"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist.  Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."

Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is
generally assumed innocent until proven guilty.

Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can 
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur.  For example:

"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to be present on the earth.  The earth does not have a tenth as much water,
even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles.  Therefore no
such flood occurred."

In science, we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has
not occurred.  We cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred,
however.

ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM

This is the Appeal to Pity, also known as Special Pleading.  The fallacy is 
committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a 
conclusion accepted.  For example:

"I did not murder my mother and father with an axe.  Please don't find me
guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan."

ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM

This is known as Appealing to the Gallery, or Appealing to the People.  To
commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by
appealing to a large group of people.  This form of fallacy is often
characterized by emotive language.  For example:

"Pornography must be banned.  It is violence against women."

"The Bible must be true.  Millions of people know that it is.  Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"

ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum.  It consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.

ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM

The Appeal to Authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win
support for an assertion.  For example:

"Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God."

This line of argument is not always completely bogus; for example, reference
to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a
discussion of that subject.  For example, we can distinguish quite clearly
between:

"Stephen Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation"
and
"John Searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent
 computer"

Hawking is a physicist, and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black
hole radiation to be informed.  Searle is a linguist, so it is questionable 
whether he is well-qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence.

THE FALLACY OF ACCIDENT

The Fallacy of Accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a
particular case whose "accidental" circumstances mean that the rule is
inapplicable.  It is the error made when one goes from the general to the
specific.  For example:

"Christians generally dislike atheists.  You are a Christian, so you must
dislike atheists."

This fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide
every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules.

CONVERSE ACCIDENT / HASTY GENERALIZATION

This fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident.  It occurs when one
forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not
representative of all possible cases.

For example:
"Jim Bakker was an insincere Christian.  Therefore all Christians are
insincere."

SWEEPING GENERALIZATION / DICTO SIMPLICITER

A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a
particular situation in which the features of that particular situation
render the rule inapplicable.  A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a
hasty generalization.

NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA / POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

These are known as False Cause fallacies.

The fallacy of Non Causa Pro Causa occurs when one identifies something as the
cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause.  For 
example:

"I took an aspirin and prayed to God, and my headache disappeared.  So God
cured me of the headache."

The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to
be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event.  For 
example:

"The Soviet Union collapsed after taking up atheism.  Therefore we must avoid
atheism for the same reasons."

CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

This fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc.  It asserts that
because two events occur together, they must be causally related, and leaves
no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events.

PETITIO PRINCIPII

This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the
conclusion reached.

CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO

This fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one
wishes to reach.  Often, the proposition will be rephrased so that the
fallacy appears to be a valid argument.  For example:

"Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office.  Hence any
government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job. 
Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret, and will be open
to blackmail.  Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government
office."

Note that the argument is entirely circular; the premise is the same as the 
conclusion.  An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason
for the British Secret Services' official ban on homosexual employees. 
Another example is the classic:

"We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so.  And we know that the
Bible is true because it is the word of God."

COMPLEX QUESTION / FALLACY OF INTERROGATION

This is the Fallacy of Presupposition.  One example is the classic loaded 
question:

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked.  This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination,
when they ask questions like:

"Where did you hide the money you stole?"

Similarly, politicians often ask loaded questions such as:

"How long will this EC interference in our affairs be allowed to continue?"
or
"Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization?"

IGNORATIO ELENCHI

The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument 
supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do
with that conclusion.

For example, a Christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the
teachings of Christianity are undoubtably true.  If he then argues at length
that Christianity is of great help to many people, no matter how well he
argues he will not have shown that Christian teachings are true.

Sadly, such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse
emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more
favourable light.

EQUIVOCATION

Equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different
meanings in the same argument.  For example:

"What could be more affordable than free software?  But to make sure that it
remains free, that users can do what they like with it, we must place a
license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable."

AMPHIBOLY

Amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because
of careless or ungrammatical phrasing.

ACCENT

Accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning.  In this case,
the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are
emphasized.  For example, consider:

"We should not speak ILL of our friends"
and
"We should not speak ill of our FRIENDS"

FALLACIES OF COMPOSITION

One fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts
of something must apply to the whole.  For example:

"The bicycle is made entirely of low mass components, and is therefore very 
lightweight."

The other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number
of individual items is shared by a collection of those items.  For example:

"A car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus.  Therefore cars
are less environmentally damaging than buses."

FALLACY OF DIVISION

The fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition.  Like
its opposite, it exists in two varieties.  The first is to assume that a
property of some thing must apply to its parts.  For example:

"You are studying at a rich college.  Therefore you must be rich."

The other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by
each item.  For example:

"Ants can destroy a tree.  Therefore this ant can destroy a tree."

THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT

This argument states that should one event occur, so will other harmful
events.  There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the
first event.

For example:
"If we legalize marijuana, then we would have to legalize crack and heroin
and we'll have a nation full of drug-addicts on welfare.  Therefore we cannot
legalize marijuana."

"A IS BASED ON B" FALLACIES / "IS A TYPE OF" FALLACIES

These fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way
similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar.

Examples:
"Isn't history based upon faith?  If so, then isn't the Bible also a form of
history?"

"Islam is based on faith, Christianity is based on faith, so isn't Islam a
form of Christianity?"

"Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry, dogs are a form of
animal based on carbon chemistry, so aren't dogs a form of cat?"

AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, B is true, therefore A
is true".  To understand why it is a fallacy, examine the truth table for
implication given earlier.

DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B
is false".  Again, the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is
a fallacy.

Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa; the latter has
the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false", where A does NOT in
fact imply B at all.  Here, the problem is not that the implication is
invalid; rather it is that the falseness of A does not allow us to deduce
anything about B.

CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL

This fallacy is an argument of the form "If A then B, therefore if B then A".

ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM

This is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old, or because "that's the way it's always been."

ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM

This is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam; it is the fallacy of
asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer
than something else.

ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM

The fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those
with more money are more likely to be right.

ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM

The fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or
more virtuous than one who is wealthier.  This fallacy is the opposite of the
argumentum ad crumenam.

ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEAM

This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the
more often it is heard.  An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs
constant repetition in asserting something.

BIFURCATION

Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation occurs when
one presents a situation as having only two alternatives, where in fact other
alternatives exist or can exist.

PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM / MANY QUESTIONS

This fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex
question.

NON SEQUITUR

A non-sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises
which are not logically connected with it.

RED HERRING

This fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the
points being made, towards a different conclusion.

REIFICATION / HYPOSTATIZATION

Reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing.

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition.  Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad
ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who
denies or questions the assertion being made.  The source of the fallacy is
the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

STRAW MAN

The straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone else's position so that it
can be attacked more easily, then to knock down that misrepresented position,
then to conclude that the original position has been demolished.  It is a
fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been
made.

THE EXTENDED ANALOGY

The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general
rule is being argued over.  The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two 
different situations, in an argument about a general rule, constitutes a 
claim that those situations are analogous to each other.

This fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about 
anti-cryptography legislation:

"I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."

"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported
 Martin Luther King."

"Are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the
 struggle for Black liberation?  How dare you!"

TU QUOQUE

This is the famous "you too" fallacy.  It occurs when an action is argued to
be acceptable because the other party has performed it.  For instance:

"You're just being randomly abusive."
"So?  You've been abusive too."

ÿ

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Constructing a Logical Argument
Summary Includes a list of logical fallacies
Keywords FAQ atheism argument fallacies logic
Expires Thu 20 May 1993 105214 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930322114724mantiscouk
Lines 632

Archivename atheismlogic
Altatheismarchivename logic
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 14

                       Constructing a Logical Argument

Although there is much argument on Usenet the general quality of argument
found is poor  This article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to
logic in the hope of improving the general level of debate

Logic is the science of reasoning proof thinking or inference [Concise
OED]  Logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether
it is correct or not valid or invalid  Of course one does not need to
study logic in order to reason correctly nevertheless a little basic
knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an
argument

Note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally
applicable  The matter is very much open for debate  This document merely
explains how to use logic given that you have already decided that logic is
the right tool for the job

Propositions or statements are the building blocks of a logical argument A
proposition is a statement which is either true or false for example It is
raining or Today is Tuesday  Propositions may be either asserted said to
be true or denied said to be false  Note that this is a technical meaning
of deny not the everyday meaning

The proposition is the meaning of the statement not the particular
arrangement of words used to express it  So God exists and There exists a
God both express the same proposition

An argument is to quote the Monty Python sketch a connected series of
statements to establish a definite proposition  An argument consists of
three stages

First of all the propositions which are necessary for the argument to
continue are stated  These are called the premises of the argument  They
are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions 

Premises or assertions are often indicated by phrases such as because
since obviously and so on  The phrase obviously is often viewed with
suspicion as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious
premises  If something doesnt seem obvious to you dont be afraid to
question it  You can always say Oh yes youre right it is obvious when
youve heard the explanation

Next the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known
as inference  In inference one proposition is arrived at on the basis of
one or more other propositions already accepted  There are various forms of
valid inference

The propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further
inference  Inference is often denoted by phrases such as implies that or
therefore

Finally we arrive at the conclusion of the argument  the proposition which
is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference  Conclusions are often
indicated by phrases such as therefore it follows that we conclude
and so on  The conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference

For example

Every event has a cause premise
The universe has a beginning premise
All beginnings involve an event premise
This implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event inference
Therefore the universe has a cause inference and conclusion

Note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another
argument  A proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with
respect to a particular argument the terms do not make sense in isolation

Sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above for example
the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated 
afterwards in support of the conclusion  This is perfectly valid if 
sometimes a little confusing

Recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or
conclusions  Many people shower their writing with assertions without ever
producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument  Some
statements look like arguments but are not  For example

If the Bible is accurate Jesus must either have been insane an evil liar
 or the Son of God

This is not an argument it is a conditional statement  It does not assert
the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its 
conclusion  It also suffers from a number of other logical flaws but well
come to those later

Another example

God created you therefore do your duty to God

The phrase do your duty to God is not a proposition since it is neither
true nor false  Therefore it is not a conclusion and the sentence is not an
argument

Finally causality is important  Consider a statement of the form A because
B  If were interested in establishing A and B is offered as evidence the
statement is an argument  If were trying to establish the truth of B then
it is not an argument it is an explanation

For example

There must be something wrong with the engine of my car because it will not
 start  This is an argument

My car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine
  This is an explanation

There are two traditional types of argument deductive and inductive  A
deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions
 that is an argument where if the premises are true the conclusion must
also be true  A deductive argument is either valid or invalid  A valid
argument is defined as one where if the premises are true then the
conclusion is true

An inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the
truth of the conclusion  Inductive arguments are not valid or invalid
however we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other
arguments and about how probable their premises are

There are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive
nor inductive  However we will concentrate for the moment on deductive
arguments as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing

It is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does
not imply that its conclusion holds  This is because of the slightly 
counterintuitive nature of implication which we must now consider more
carefully

Obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions  However an
argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions 
For example

   All insects have wings premise
   Woodlice are insects premise
   Therefore woodlice have wings conclusion

Here the conclusion is not true because the arguments premises are false 
If the arguments premises were true however the conclusion would be true 
The argument is thus entirely valid

More subtly we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises
as in

   All fish live in the sea premise
   Dolphins are fish premise
   Therefore dolphins live in the sea conclusion

However the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid
inference from true premises  We can therefore draw up a truth table for
implication

The symbol  denotes implication A is the premise B the conclusion 
T and F represent true and false respectively

Premise Conclusion Inference
   A        B        AB

   F        F         T      If the premises are false and the inference
   F        T         T      valid the conclusion can be true or false

   T        F         F      If the premises are true and the conclusion
                             false the inference must be invalid

   T        T         T      If the premises are true and the inference valid
                             the conclusion must be true

A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true  A sound 
argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion  Be careful not to confuse
valid arguments with sound arguments

To delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require
lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy  It is simpler and probably
more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing
an argument  These pitfalls are known as fallacies

In everyday English the term fallacy is used to refer to mistaken beliefs
as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs  This is fair
enough but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of
technically incorrect argument especially if the argument appears valid or
convincing

So for the purposes of this discussion we define a fallacy as a logical
argument which appears to be correct but which can be seen to be incorrect
when examined more closely  By studying fallacies we aim to avoid being
misled by them  The following list of fallacies is not intended to be
exhaustive

ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM APPEAL TO FORCE

The Appeal to Force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the
threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion  It
is often used by politicians and can be summarized as might makes right 
The force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer

For example
 Thus there is ample proof of the truth of the Bible  All those who
refuse to accept that truth will burn in Hell

ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM

Argumentum ad hominem is literally argument directed at the man

The Abusive variety of Argumentum ad Hominem occurs when instead of trying
to disprove the truth of an assertion the arguer attacks the person or
people making the assertion  This is invalid because the truth of an
assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it

For example
Atheism is an evil philosophy  It is practised by Communists and murderers

Sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by 
showing for example that he is a known perjurer  This is a valid way of
reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness and not
argumentum ad hominem however it does not demonstrate that the witnesss
testimony is false  To conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam see elsewhere in this list

The circumstantial form of Argumentum ad Hominem is committed when a person
argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of
the opponents particular circumstances

For example
It is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food  How can you argue
otherwise when youre quite happy to wear leather shoes

This is an abusive charge of inconsistency used as an excuse for dismissing
the opponents argument

This fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion  For 
example

Of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing 
Youre white

This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem when one alleges that ones
adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests is
also known as poisoning the well

ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM

Argumentum ad ignorantium means argument from ignorance  This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false  Or equivalently when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true  Note that this
is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved
true a basic scientific principle

Examples
Of course the Bible is true  Nobody can prove otherwise

Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist  Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real

Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law where one is
generally assumed innocent until proven guilty

Also in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred the absence of such evidence can 
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur  For example

A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to be present on the earth  The earth does not have a tenth as much water
even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles  Therefore no
such flood occurred

In science we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has
not occurred  We cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred
however

ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM

This is the Appeal to Pity also known as Special Pleading  The fallacy is 
committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a 
conclusion accepted  For example

I did not murder my mother and father with an axe  Please dont find me
guilty Im suffering enough through being an orphan

ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM

This is known as Appealing to the Gallery or Appealing to the People  To
commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by
appealing to a large group of people  This form of fallacy is often
characterized by emotive language  For example

Pornography must be banned  It is violence against women

The Bible must be true  Millions of people know that it is  Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools

ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum  It consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct

ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM

The Appeal to Authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win
support for an assertion  For example

Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God

This line of argument is not always completely bogus for example reference
to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a
discussion of that subject  For example we can distinguish quite clearly
between

Stephen Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation
and
John Searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent
 computer

Hawking is a physicist and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black
hole radiation to be informed  Searle is a linguist so it is questionable 
whether he is wellqualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence

THE FALLACY OF ACCIDENT

The Fallacy of Accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a
particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule is
inapplicable  It is the error made when one goes from the general to the
specific  For example

Christians generally dislike atheists  You are a Christian so you must
dislike atheists

This fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide
every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules

CONVERSE ACCIDENT  HASTY GENERALIZATION

This fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident  It occurs when one
forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not
representative of all possible cases

For example
Jim Bakker was an insincere Christian  Therefore all Christians are
insincere

SWEEPING GENERALIZATION  DICTO SIMPLICITER

A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a
particular situation in which the features of that particular situation
render the rule inapplicable  A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a
hasty generalization

NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA  POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

These are known as False Cause fallacies

The fallacy of Non Causa Pro Causa occurs when one identifies something as the
cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause  For 
example

I took an aspirin and prayed to God and my headache disappeared  So God
cured me of the headache

The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to
be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event  For 
example

The Soviet Union collapsed after taking up atheism  Therefore we must avoid
atheism for the same reasons

CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

This fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc  It asserts that
because two events occur together they must be causally related and leaves
no room for other factors that may be the causes of the events

PETITIO PRINCIPII

This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the
conclusion reached

CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO

This fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one
wishes to reach  Often the proposition will be rephrased so that the
fallacy appears to be a valid argument  For example

Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office  Hence any
government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job 
Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret and will be open
to blackmail  Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government
office

Note that the argument is entirely circular the premise is the same as the 
conclusion  An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason
for the British Secret Services official ban on homosexual employees 
Another example is the classic

We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so  And we know that the
Bible is true because it is the word of God

COMPLEX QUESTION  FALLACY OF INTERROGATION

This is the Fallacy of Presupposition  One example is the classic loaded 
question

Have you stopped beating your wife

The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked  This trick is often used by lawyers in crossexamination
when they ask questions like

Where did you hide the money you stole

Similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such as

How long will this EC interference in our affairs be allowed to continue
or
Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization

IGNORATIO ELENCHI

The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument 
supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do
with that conclusion

For example a Christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the
teachings of Christianity are undoubtably true  If he then argues at length
that Christianity is of great help to many people no matter how well he
argues he will not have shown that Christian teachings are true

Sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse
emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more
favourable light

EQUIVOCATION

Equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different
meanings in the same argument  For example

What could be more affordable than free software  But to make sure that it
remains free that users can do what they like with it we must place a
license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable

AMPHIBOLY

Amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because
of careless or ungrammatical phrasing

ACCENT

Accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning  In this case
the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are
emphasized  For example consider

We should not speak ILL of our friends
and
We should not speak ill of our FRIENDS

FALLACIES OF COMPOSITION

One fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts
of something must apply to the whole  For example

The bicycle is made entirely of low mass components and is therefore very 
lightweight

The other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number
of individual items is shared by a collection of those items  For example

A car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus  Therefore cars
are less environmentally damaging than buses

FALLACY OF DIVISION

The fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition  Like
its opposite it exists in two varieties  The first is to assume that a
property of some thing must apply to its parts  For example

You are studying at a rich college  Therefore you must be rich

The other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by
each item  For example

Ants can destroy a tree  Therefore this ant can destroy a tree

THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT

This argument states that should one event occur so will other harmful
events  There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the
first event

For example
If we legalize marijuana then we would have to legalize crack and heroin
and well have a nation full of drugaddicts on welfare  Therefore we cannot
legalize marijuana

A IS BASED ON B FALLACIES  IS A TYPE OF FALLACIES

These fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way
similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar

Examples
Isnt history based upon faith  If so then isnt the Bible also a form of
history

Islam is based on faith Christianity is based on faith so isnt Islam a
form of Christianity

Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry dogs are a form of
animal based on carbon chemistry so arent dogs a form of cat

AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form A implies B B is true therefore A
is true  To understand why it is a fallacy examine the truth table for
implication given earlier

DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT

This fallacy is an argument of the form A implies B A is false therefore B
is false  Again the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is
a fallacy

Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa the latter has
the form A implies B A is false therefore B is false where A does NOT in
fact imply B at all  Here the problem is not that the implication is
invalid rather it is that the falseness of A does not allow us to deduce
anything about B

CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL

This fallacy is an argument of the form If A then B therefore if B then A

ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM

This is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old or because thats the way its always been

ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM

This is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam it is the fallacy of
asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer
than something else

ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM

The fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness that those
with more money are more likely to be right

ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM

The fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or
more virtuous than one who is wealthier  This fallacy is the opposite of the
argumentum ad crumenam

ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEAM

This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the
more often it is heard  An argumentum ad nauseum is one that employs
constant repetition in asserting something

BIFURCATION

Also referred to as the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when
one presents a situation as having only two alternatives where in fact other
alternatives exist or can exist

PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM  MANY QUESTIONS

This fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex
question

NON SEQUITUR

A nonsequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises
which are not logically connected with it

RED HERRING

This fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed so that everyones attention is diverted away from the
points being made towards a different conclusion

REIFICATION  HYPOSTATIZATION

Reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition  Shifting the burden of proof a special case of argumentum ad
ignorantium is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who
denies or questions the assertion being made  The source of the fallacy is
the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise

STRAW MAN

The straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone elses position so that it
can be attacked more easily then to knock down that misrepresented position
then to conclude that the original position has been demolished  It is a
fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been
made

THE EXTENDED ANALOGY

The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general
rule is being argued over  The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two 
different situations in an argument about a general rule constitutes a 
claim that those situations are analogous to each other

This fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about 
anticryptography legislation

I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it

Such a position is odious it implies that you would not have supported
 Martin Luther King

Are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the
 struggle for Black liberation  How dare you

TU QUOQUE

This is the famous you too fallacy  It occurs when an action is argued to
be acceptable because the other party has performed it  For instance

Youre just being randomly abusive
So  Youve been abusive too



preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu

In article <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>, galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton) writes:
[deletions]
>> Now, back to your post.  You have done a fine job at using 
>> your seventh grade 'life science' course to explain why
>> bad diseases are caused by Satan and good things are a 
>> result of God.  But I want to let you in on a little secret.
>> "We can create an amino acid sequence in lab! -- And guess
>> what, the sequence curls into a helix!  Wow!  That's right,
>> it can happen without a supernatural force." 
>
>Wow!  All it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions
>of dollars of state of the art equipment.  And I thought it took
>*intelligence* to create the building blocks of life.  Foolish me!

 People with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment
and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes. But tornadoes
do not require intelligence to exist.
 Not only that, the equipment needed is not really 'state of the art.'
To study the *products*, yes, but not to generate them.

>If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
>response, send a copy to Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com.  I can't read
>a.a. every day, and some posts slip by.  Thanks.
 
 Oh, I will. :->

Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 32
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu

In article 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton writes
[deletions]
 Now back to your post  You have done a fine job at using 
 your seventh grade life science course to explain why
 bad diseases are caused by Satan and good things are a 
 result of God  But I want to let you in on a little secret
 We can create an amino acid sequence in lab  And guess
 what the sequence curls into a helix  Wow  Thats right
 it can happen without a supernatural force 

Wow  All it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions
of dollars of state of the art equipment  And I thought it took
intelligence to create the building blocks of life  Foolish me

 People with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment
and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes But tornadoes
do not require intelligence to exist
 Not only that the equipment needed is not really state of the art
To study the products yes but not to generate them

If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
response send a copy to Jim_Brownozbmdtrwcom  I cant read
aa every day and some posts slip by  Thanks
 
 Oh I will 

Sincerely

Ray Ingles                   The above opinions are probably
                             not those of the University of
inglesenginumichedu       Michigan Yet

preprocess doc  From: cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: vesta.unm.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell

In article <healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) writes:
[deletia wrt pathetic Jee-zus posting by Bissel] 
> I hope you're not going to flame him.  Please give him the same coutesy you'
> ve given me.

NO. He hasn't extended to US the courtesy you've shown us, so he don't get no
pie. Tammy, I respect your beliefs because you don't try to stamp them into
my being. I have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to
evangelize.
 
> 
> Tammy

after prepro  From cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost vestaunmedu
Keywords Dan Bissell

In article  healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy writes
[deletia wrt pathetic Jeezus posting by Bissel] 
 I hope youre not going to flame him  Please give him the same coutesy you
 ve given me

NO He hasnt extended to US the courtesy youve shown us so he dont get no
pie Tammy I respect your beliefs because you dont try to stamp them into
my being I have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to
evangelize
 
 
 Tammy

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 26

In article <2942881697.0.p00168@psilink.com> p00168@psilink.com (James F. Tims) writes:
>
>By maintaining classes D and E, even in prison, it seems as if we 
>place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than 
>we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error.
>

  I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
  in prison for life.

  That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder, but
  also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
  to commit the same crimes again.

  In other words, if lifetime imprisonment doesn't work, perhaps
  it's not because we're not executing these people, but because
  we're not being careful enough about how we lock them up.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 26

In article 29428816970p00168psilinkcom p00168psilinkcom James F Tims writes

By maintaining classes D and E even in prison it seems as if we 
place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than 
we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error


  I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
  in prison for life

  That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder but
  also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
  to commit the same crimes again

  In other words if lifetime imprisonment doesnt work perhaps
  its not because were not executing these people but because
  were not being careful enough about how we lock them up

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Ryukoku Univ., Seta, Japan
Lines: 12

In article <1pp6reINNonl@phantom.gatech.edu>, matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>
> Greedy little oil companies?  Don't blame them; oil companies just supply the
> demand created by you, me, and just about everyone else on the planet.  If we
> run out, its all our faults.
>

	Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria?  I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
Any comments?

						Will...

after prepro  From willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Ryukoku Univ Seta Japan
Lines 12

In article 1pp6reINNonlphantomgatechedu matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes

 Greedy little oil companies  Dont blame them oil companies just supply the
 demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet  If we
 run out its all our faults


	Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria  I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
Any comments

						Will

preprocess doc  From: ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Ralph Buttigieg)
Subject: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Lines: 34

Original to: keithley@apple.com
G'day keithley@apple.com

21 Apr 93 22:25, keithley@apple.com wrote to All:

 kc> keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley), via Kralizec 3:713/602


 kc> But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST
about a
 kc> low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon.  A General
 kc> Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
 kc> stage, LEV, and crew capsule.  The mission consists of delivering two
 kc> unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission.
 kc> Total cost:  US was $10-$13 billion.  Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was
$6-$9
 kc> billion for the US share.

 kc> moon for a year.   Hmmm.  Not really practical.  Anyone got a
 kc> cheaper/better way of delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface
within
 kc> the decade?  Anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year's
 kc> supply of consumables and equipment would weigh?

Why not modify the GD plan into Zurbrin's Compact Moon Direct scheme? let
one of those early flight carry an O2 plant and make your own.

ta

Ralph

--- GoldED 2.41+
 * Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-1204  3:713/6
(3:713/635)

after prepro  From ralphbuttigiegf635n713z3fidozetaorgau Ralph Buttigieg
Subject Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization Fidonet Gate admin is fidosocsutseduau
Lines 34

Original to keithleyapplecom
Gday keithleyapplecom

21 Apr 93 2225 keithleyapplecom wrote to All

 kc keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley via Kralizec 3713602


 kc But back to the contest goals there was a recent article in AWST
about a
 kc low cost its all relative manned return to the moon  A General
 kc Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV  Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
 kc stage LEV and crew capsule  The mission consists of delivering two
 kc unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission
 kc Total cost  US was 1013 billion  Joint ESANASA project was
69
 kc billion for the US share

 kc moon for a year   Hmmm  Not really practical  Anyone got a
 kc cheaperbetter way of delivering 1520 tonnes to the lunar surface
within
 kc the decade  Anyone have a more precise guess about how much a years
 kc supply of consumables and equipment would weigh

Why not modify the GD plan into Zurbrins Compact Moon Direct scheme let
one of those early flight carry an O2 plant and make your own

ta

Ralph

 GoldED 241
  Origin VULCANS WORLD  Sydney Australia 02 6351204  37136
3713635

preprocess doc  From: frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Societally acceptable behavior
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Lines: 87
NNTP-Posting-Host: d012s658.ap.mchp.sni.de

In article <C5r9At.Asv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
#In <1qvabj$g1j@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) 
#writes:
#
#>In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike 
#Cobb) writes:
#
#Am I making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals?  Where do they come 
#from?  The question came from the idea that I heard that morals come from
#whatever is societally mandated.

It's only one aspect of morality.  Societal morality is necessarily
very crude and broad-brush stuff which attempts to deal with what
is necessary to keep that society going  - and often it's a little
over-enthusiastic about doing so.  Individual morality is a different
thing, it often includes societal mores (or society is in trouble),
but is stronger.  For example, some people are vegetarian, though eating
meat may be perfectly legal.

#
#>#Merely a question for the basis of morality
#>#
#>#Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.
#>#
#>#1)Who is society
#
#>Depends on the society.
#
#Doesn't help.  Is the point irrelevant?

No.  Often the answer is "we are".  But if society is those who make
the rules, that's a different question.  If society is who should
make the rules, that's yet another.  I don't claim to have the answers, either,
but I don't think we do it very well in Ireland, and I like some things
about the US system, at least in principle.

#
#>#2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?
#
#>Depends.
#On....  Again, this comes from a certain question (see above).

Well, ideally they don't, but if they must they should do it by consensus, IMO.
#
#>#3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?
#
#>By adopting a default position that people's moral decisions
#>are none of society's business,
#
#So how can we put people in jail? How can we condemn other societies?

Because sometimes that's necessary.  The hard trick is to recognise when
it is, and equally importantly, when it isn't.

# and only interfering when it's truly
#>necessary.
#
#Why would it be necessary?  What right do we have to interfere?

IMO, it isn't often that interference (i.e. jail, and force of various
kinds and degrees) is both necessary and effective.  Where you derive 
the right to interfere is a difficult question - it's a sort of
liar's paradox: "force is necessary for freedom".   One possible justification
is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn't object if
their own freedom is taken away - the paradox doesn't arise if
we don't actively wish to take way anyone's freedom.
#
#  The introduction of permissible interference causes the problem
#>that it can be either too much or too little - but most people seem
#>to agree that some level of interference is necessary.
#
#They see the need for a "justice" system.  How can we even define that term?

Only by consensus, I guess.

#  Thus you
#>get a situation where "The law often allows what honour forbids", which I've
#>come to believe is as it should be.  
#
#I admit I don't understand that statement.

What I mean is that, while thus-and-such may be legal, thus-and-such may
also be seen as immoral.   The law lets you do it, but you don't let yourself
do it.  Eating meat, for example.
-- 
Frank O'Dwyer                                  'I'm not hatching That'
odwyer@sse.ie                                  from "Hens",  by Evelyn Conlon

after prepro  From frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
Subject Re Societally acceptable behavior
Organization SiemensNixdorf AG
Lines 87
NNTPPostingHost d012s658apmchpsnide

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
In 1qvabjg1jhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer 
writes

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike 
Cobb writes

Am I making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals  Where do they come 
from  The question came from the idea that I heard that morals come from
whatever is societally mandated

Its only one aspect of morality  Societal morality is necessarily
very crude and broadbrush stuff which attempts to deal with what
is necessary to keep that society going   and often its a little
overenthusiastic about doing so  Individual morality is a different
thing it often includes societal mores or society is in trouble
but is stronger  For example some people are vegetarian though eating
meat may be perfectly legal


Merely a question for the basis of morality

MoralEthical behavior  _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_

1Who is society

Depends on the society

Doesnt help  Is the point irrelevant

No  Often the answer is we are  But if society is those who make
the rules thats a different question  If society is who should
make the rules thats yet another  I dont claim to have the answers either
but I dont think we do it very well in Ireland and I like some things
about the US system at least in principle


2How do they define what is acceptable

Depends
On  Again this comes from a certain question see above

Well ideally they dont but if they must they should do it by consensus IMO

3How do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position

By adopting a default position that peoples moral decisions
are none of societys business

So how can we put people in jail How can we condemn other societies

Because sometimes thats necessary  The hard trick is to recognise when
it is and equally importantly when it isnt

 and only interfering when its truly
necessary

Why would it be necessary  What right do we have to interfere

IMO it isnt often that interference ie jail and force of various
kinds and degrees is both necessary and effective  Where you derive 
the right to interfere is a difficult question  its a sort of
liars paradox force is necessary for freedom   One possible justification
is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldnt object if
their own freedom is taken away  the paradox doesnt arise if
we dont actively wish to take way anyones freedom

  The introduction of permissible interference causes the problem
that it can be either too much or too little  but most people seem
to agree that some level of interference is necessary

They see the need for a justice system  How can we even define that term

Only by consensus I guess

  Thus you
get a situation where The law often allows what honour forbids which Ive
come to believe is as it should be  

I admit I dont understand that statement

What I mean is that while thusandsuch may be legal thusandsuch may
also be seen as immoral   The law lets you do it but you dont let yourself
do it  Eating meat for example
 
Frank ODwyer                                  Im not hatching That
odwyersseie                                  from Hens  by Evelyn Conlon

preprocess doc  From: n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier)
Subject: Re: NAVSTAR positions
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: harder.ccr-p.ida.org
In-reply-to: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se's message of 19 Apr 93 06:34:55 GMT


You have missed something.  There is a big difference between being in
the SAME PLANE and in exactly the same state (positions and velocities
equal).  IN addition to this, there has always been redundancies proposed.

Bob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert W. McGwier                  | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org
Center for Communications Research | Interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf
Princeton, N.J. 08520              | Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700, Hightstown

after prepro  From n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier
Subject Re NAVSTAR positions
Organization IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines 11
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost harderccrpidaorg
Inreplyto ThomasEnblomeosericssonses message of 19 Apr 93 063455 GMT


You have missed something  There is a big difference between being in
the SAME PLANE and in exactly the same state positions and velocities
equal  IN addition to this there has always been redundancies proposed

Bob


Robert W McGwier                   n4hyccrpidaorg
Center for Communications Research  Interests amateur radio astronomygolf
Princeton NJ 08520               Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700 Hightstown

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 76

In article <115687@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
 
(deletion)
>Sure. Yes, I did. You see I don't think that rape and murder should
>be dealt with lightly. You, being so interested in leniency for
>leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be
>told the "did a _bad_ thing."
>
 
Straw man. And you brought up leniency.
 
 
>>And what about the simple chance of misjudgements?
>
>Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible.
>I suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement
>of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely.
>
 
Assuming that misjudgements are not correlated.
 
 
(Deletion)
>>I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
>>not to call each others names. In this case, to substantiate it: The Quran
>>allows that one beATs one's wife into submission.
>
>
>Really? Care to give chapter and verse? We could discuss it.
>
 
Has been discussed here. Chapter and verse were cited, I assume that you
weren't looking then.
 
Let's be more exact, do you think it is not in the Quran?. And what would
your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it?
 
 
>>Primitive Machism refers to
>>that. (I have misspelt that before, my fault).
>
>Again, not all of the Orient follows the Qur'an. So you'll have to do
>better than that.
>
 
I have not claimed that. It is sufficient for the argument when there are
a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as Machistic. Are you going
to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the
Orient?
 
 
(Deletion)
>This is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress
>sex. A such it's an irrelevant argument.
>
>If you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
>fine. My response is then: you have given no reason for your statement
>that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments").
>
>The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
>measures are required to suppress it. If the urge to have sex is so
>strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
>find a marriage partner.
>
 
You apparently have trouble reading things you don't like. The point was
having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire. Marriage is a red
herring. Tell me about homosexuals, for one. You simply ignore everything
that doesn't fit into the world as you would like to have it.
 
And as for the situation of adolescents, one has probably keep your
combination of leniency and maiming in mind, whe you say that it does
not take *overly* strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in
adolescents.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 76

In article 115687buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
deletion
Sure Yes I did You see I dont think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly You being so interested in leniency for
leniencys sake apparently think that people should simply be
told the did a _bad_ thing

 
Straw man And you brought up leniency
 
 
And what about the simple chance of misjudgements

Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible
I suspect that its pretty unlikely that given my requirement
of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely

 
Assuming that misjudgements are not correlated
 
 
Deletion
I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
not to call each others names In this case to substantiate it The Quran
allows that one beATs ones wife into submission


Really Care to give chapter and verse We could discuss it

 
Has been discussed here Chapter and verse were cited I assume that you
werent looking then
 
Lets be more exact do you think it is not in the Quran And what would
your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it
 
 
Primitive Machism refers to
that I have misspelt that before my fault

Again not all of the Orient follows the Quran So youll have to do
better than that

 
I have not claimed that It is sufficient for the argument when there are
a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as Machistic Are you going
to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the
Orient
 
 
Deletion
This is an argument for why _you_ dont like religions that suppress
sex A such its an irrelevant argument

If youd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
fine My response is then you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments

The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner

 
You apparently have trouble reading things you dont like The point was
having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire Marriage is a red
herring Tell me about homosexuals for one You simply ignore everything
that doesnt fit into the world as you would like to have it
 
And as for the situation of adolescents one has probably keep your
combination of leniency and maiming in mind whe you say that it does
not take overly strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in
adolescents
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
>died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
>behaviour, entirely by chance.

That's the entire point!

>Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
>organism evolves cooperative behaviour?

Yes!

Natural morality is a morality that developed naturally.

>What about the natural morality of bee dance?

Huh?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour entirely by chance

Thats the entire point

Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour

Yes

Natural morality is a morality that developed naturally

What about the natural morality of bee dance

Huh

keith

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: p00261@psilink.com (Robert Knowles)
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.163050.13308@wam.umd.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 22

>DATE:   Mon, 5 Apr 1993 16:30:50 GMT
>FROM:   Stilgar <west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu>
>
>In article <kmr4.1422.733983061@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.  
>Ryan) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr5.025924.11361@wam.umd.edu>  
>west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
>> 
>> >THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GOD(tm)    *prove me wrong*
>> 
>> 	I dispute it.
>> 
>> 	Ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong.
>
>	I dispute your counter-example
>
>	Ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and
>	I am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
>			8^p
>

This looks like a serious case of temporary Islam. 

after prepro  Subject Re Gospel Dating
From p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
InReplyTo 1993Apr516305013308wamumdedu
NntpPostingHost 127001
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 22

DATE   Mon 5 Apr 1993 163050 GMT
FROM   Stilgar 

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M  
Ryan writes
 In article 1993Apr502592411361wamumdedu  
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
 
 THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GODtm    prove me wrong
 
 	I dispute it
 
 	Ergo by counterexample you are proven wrong

	I dispute your counterexample

	Ergo by countercounterexample you are wrong and
	I am right so nannynannybooboo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
			8^p


This looks like a serious case of temporary Islam 

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Bill Conner:
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 17

In article <C4y976.MLr@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:

>Could you explain what any of this pertains to? Is this a position
>statement on something or typing practice? And why are you using my
>name, do you think this relates to anything I've said and if so, what.
>
>Bill

 Could you explain what any of the above pertains to? Is this a position 
statement on something or typing practice? 
--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Bill Conner
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 17

In article  bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes

Could you explain what any of this pertains to Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice And why are you using my
name do you think this relates to anything Ive said and if so what

Bill

 Could you explain what any of the above pertains to Is this a position 
statement on something or typing practice 



       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Article-I.D.: rave.1psogpINNksq
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov


> flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what 
> is going to be  'pushed' and how
> far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans,
> such as the 'early' first flight of the F-16 during its high-speed
> taxi tests).

.. and Chuck Yeager earlier flights with the X-1...


 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re pushing the envelope
ArticleID rave1psogpINNksq
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Distribution world
Organization NASA Langley Research Center Hampton VA  USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov


 flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what 
 is going to be  pushed and how
 far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans
 such as the early first flight of the F16 during its highspeed
 taxi tests

 and Chuck Yeager earlier flights with the X1


 COEGALONLARCNASAGOV

preprocess doc  From: uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote)
Organization: Never Had It, Never Will
Lines: 14

In sci.astro, dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:

[ a nearly perfect parody  -- needed more random CAPS]


Thanks for the chuckle.  (I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia!)

To those who've taken this seriously, READ THE NAME! (aloud)

-- 
Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.  Enjoy the buffet! 



after prepro  From uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote
Organization Never Had It Never Will
Lines 14

In sciastro dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes

[ a nearly perfect parody   needed more random CAPS]


Thanks for the chuckle  I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia

To those whove taken this seriously READ THE NAME aloud

 
Thank you thank you Ill be here all week  Enjoy the buffet 



preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 23

In article <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>#>Few people can imagine dying for capitalism, a few
>#>more can imagine dying for democracy, but a lot more will die for their
>#>Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who Died on the Cross for their Sins.
>#>Motivation, pure and simple.
>
>Got any cites for this nonsense?   How many people will die for Mom?
>Patriotism? Freedom?   Money?  Their Kids?  Fast cars and swimming pools?
>A night with Kim Basinger or Mel Gibson?  And which of these things are evil?
>
 
Read a history book, Fred. And tell me why so many religions command to
commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion. Or why so many
religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse
than dieing? Coincidence, I assume. Or ist part of the absolute morality
you describe so often?
 
Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. Irrational
belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 23

In article 1qi83bec4horusapmchpsnide
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 
Deletion
Few people can imagine dying for capitalism a few
more can imagine dying for democracy but a lot more will die for their
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who Died on the Cross for their Sins
Motivation pure and simple

Got any cites for this nonsense   How many people will die for Mom
Patriotism Freedom   Money  Their Kids  Fast cars and swimming pools
A night with Kim Basinger or Mel Gibson  And which of these things are evil

 
Read a history book Fred And tell me why so many religions command to
commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion Or why so many
religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse
than dieing Coincidence I assume Or ist part of the absolute morality
you describe so often
 
Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes Irrational
belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 27

In article <STEINLY.93Apr21152344@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

>Seriously though. If you were to ask the British government
>whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
>effective, what answer do you think you'd get? What if you asked
>in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-)

What do you mean? Are you saying they thought the effort was
profitable or that the money was efficiently spent (providing max
value per money spent)?

I think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions. Exceptions
would be places like the US from the French Indian War to the end of
the US Revolution. 

But even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the
British engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies.
Five years after the American Revolution England was still the largest
US trading partner.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 27

In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

Seriously though If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective what answer do you think youd get What if you asked
in 1765 1815 1865 1915 and 1945 respectively 

What do you mean Are you saying they thought the effort was
profitable or that the money was efficiently spent providing max
value per money spent

I think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions Exceptions
would be places like the US from the French Indian War to the end of
the US Revolution 

But even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the
British engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies
Five years after the American Revolution England was still the largest
US trading partner

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: agar.engin.umich.edu

In article <66014@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Benedikt Rosenau writes:
>
>>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?
>
>If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
>it's obviously a risk one takes.

 Ah, now here is the core question. Let me suggest a scenario.

 We will grant that a God exists, and uses revelation to communicate
with humans. (Said revelation taking the form (paraphrased from your
own words) 'This infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck,
makes him take dictation, and then hides away for a few hundred years'.)
 Now, there exists a human who has not personally experienced a
revelation. This person observes that not only do these revelations seem
to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the
observed world (which is all this person has ever seen), but there are
many mutually contradictory claims of revelation.

 Now, based on this, can this person be blamed for concluding, absent
a personal revelation of their own, that there is almost certainly
nothing to this 'revelation' thing?

>I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
>conceptualization.  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
>trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
>experience.  One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
>the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
>perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).
>
>An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
>that the "better" descriptive language is not available.

 Absent this better language, and absent observations in support of the
claims of revelation, can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing?

 Here is what I am driving at: I have thought a long time about this. I
have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity, it is
nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that I am familiar with.
 Now, if there does happen to be, say, a Christian God, will I be held
accountable for such an honest mistake?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles               ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 49
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost agarenginumichedu

In article 66014mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Benedikt Rosenau writes

And what about that revelation thing Charley

If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes

 Ah now here is the core question Let me suggest a scenario

 We will grant that a God exists and uses revelation to communicate
with humans Said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your
own words This infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck
makes him take dictation and then hides away for a few hundred years
 Now there exists a human who has not personally experienced a
revelation This person observes that not only do these revelations seem
to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the
observed world which is all this person has ever seen but there are
many mutually contradictory claims of revelation

 Now based on this can this person be blamed for concluding absent
a personal revelation of their own that there is almost certainly
nothing to this revelation thing

Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization  The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience  One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable

An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available

 Absent this better language and absent observations in support of the
claims of revelation can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing

 Here is what I am driving at I have thought a long time about this I
have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity it is
nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that I am familiar with
 Now if there does happen to be say a Christian God will I be held
accountable for such an honest mistake

 Sincerely

 Ray Ingles               inglesenginumichedu

 The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars  Robert A Heinlein

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <19930422.121236.246@almaden.ibm.com>, Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert) writes:
> 3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
>    This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.

Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "Level 5" comes
from? It sounds like the RISKS Digest  equivalent of Large, Extra
Large, Jumbo... Or maybe it's like "Defcon 5..."

I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1, or cheesy dime-store software.  Not
surprising.  But who is it that invents this standard, and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it?

Of course, what Shakespeare        | Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey
ORIGINALLY wrote was "First thing  | Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  
we do, let's kill all the EDITORS."| Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  
But for some reason it didn't      | Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  
survive past the first draft.      | SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  
-- David D. "Laserdave" Levine (davidl@ssd.intel.com)

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 19930422121236246almadenibmcom WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert writes
 3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
    This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA

Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term Level 5 comes
from It sounds like the RISKS Digest  equivalent of Large Extra
Large Jumbo Or maybe its like Defcon 5

I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1 or cheesy dimestore software  Not
surprising  But who is it that invents this standard and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it

Of course what Shakespeare         Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
ORIGINALLY wrote was First thing   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  
we do lets kill all the EDITORS Bitnet           HIGGINSFNALBITNET  
But for some reason it didnt       Internet       HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV  
survive past the first draft       SPANHepnet           43011HIGGINS  
 David D Laserdave Levine davidlssdintelcom

preprocess doc  Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
 <dxb105.734155421@aries> <1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu>
 <dxb105.734495289@virgo> <1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
 <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>
Lines: 38

In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
says:
>In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon
><SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
>>not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
>>think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
>>Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
>>larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
>>they will simply be able to afford more stuff.
>
>If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
>economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste*
>on a lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
>but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military,
>scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have
>the money, why not?" approach.

I was assuming that there won't be a moon base unless it makes a
profit, actually.  If it does, well, that gives a larger GNP which
leads to being able to spend more money on your military, including
gosh-wow space stuff.  (assuming it's profitable, rather than paying
for itself.)
>
>It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
>that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
>Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
>years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
>levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
>put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
>use grad students?

You might be able to _run_ one for that; put it there, hardly.

Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon?

Graydon

after prepro  Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon 
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
  1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu
  1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp
Lines 38

In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
says
In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon
 writes
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff

If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste
on a lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military
scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have
the money why not approach

I was assuming that there wont be a moon base unless it makes a
profit actually  If it does well that gives a larger GNP which
leads to being able to spend more money on your military including
goshwow space stuff  assuming its profitable rather than paying
for itself

Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students

You might be able to _run_ one for that put it there hardly

Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon

Graydon

preprocess doc  From: chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL)
Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
Organization: South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au

"James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:

>By maintaining classes D and E, even in prison, it seems as if we 
>place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than 
>we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error.

I would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by
                              ^^^^                      ^^^^^^^^
mistake.  Though I do agree with the concept that the type D and E murderers
are a massive waste of space and resources I don't agree with the concept:

	killing is wrong
	if you kill we will punish you
	our punishment will be to kill you.

Seems to be lacking in consistency.

--
"I know" is nothing more than "I believe" with pretentions.

after prepro  From chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL
Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
Organization South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines 19
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost baarnietafesaeduau

James F Tims  writes

By maintaining classes D and E even in prison it seems as if we 
place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than 
we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error

I would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by
                              ^^^^                      ^^^^^^^^
mistake  Though I do agree with the concept that the type D and E murderers
are a massive waste of space and resources I dont agree with the concept

	killing is wrong
	if you kill we will punish you
	our punishment will be to kill you

Seems to be lacking in consistency


I know is nothing more than I believe with pretentions

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 63

In article <1993Apr14.121134.12187@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:

>>In article <C5C7Cn.5GB@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:

>I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeini's fatwa etc.

>I found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the "fatwa":

>"It was also common knowledge as prescribed by Islamic law, that the
>sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of Islamic law
>applies.  Moreover, the sentence has to be passed by an Islamic court
>and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law.
>Even in Islamic countries, let alone in non-Muslim lands, individuals
>cannot take the law into their own hands.  The sentence when passed,
>must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by
>individuals.  Indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into
>one's own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of
>self-defence.  Moreover, the offender must be brought to the notice of
>the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him.
>This law applies equally to Muslim as well as non-Muslim territories.


I agree fully with the above statement and is *precisely* what I meant
by my previous statements about Islam not being anarchist and the
law not being _enforcible_ despite the _law_ being applicable. 


>Hence, on such clarification from the ulama [Islamic scholars], Muslims
>in Britain before and after Imam Khomeini's fatwa made it very clear
>that since Islamic law is not applicable to Britain, the hadd
>[compulsory] punishment cannot be applied here."


I disagree with this conclusion about the _applicability_ of the 
Islamic law to all muslims, wherever they may be. The above conclusion 
does not strictly follow from the foregoing, but only the conclusion 
that the fatwa cannot be *enforced* according to Islamic law. However, 
I do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to Rushdie even *were*
it well founded.

>Wow... from the above, it looks like that from an Islamic viewpoint
>Khomeini's "fatwa" constitutes a "criminal act" .... perhaps I could
>even go out on a limb and call Khomeini a "criminal" on this basis....


Certainly putting a price on the head of Rushdie in Britain is a criminal 
act according to Islamic law. 


>Anyhow, I think it is understood by _knowledgeable_ Muslims that
>Khomeini's "fatwa" is Islamically illegitimate, at least on the basis
>expounded above.  Others, such as myself and others who have posted here
>(particularly Umar Khan and Gregg Jaeger, I think) go further and say
>that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against Islamic law
>according to our understanding.

Yes.





Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 63

In article 1993Apr1412113412187monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes

In article  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes

I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeinis fatwa etc

I found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the fatwa

It was also common knowledge as prescribed by Islamic law that the
sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of Islamic law
applies  Moreover the sentence has to be passed by an Islamic court
and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law
Even in Islamic countries let alone in nonMuslim lands individuals
cannot take the law into their own hands  The sentence when passed
must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by
individuals  Indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into
ones own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of
selfdefence  Moreover the offender must be brought to the notice of
the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him
This law applies equally to Muslim as well as nonMuslim territories


I agree fully with the above statement and is precisely what I meant
by my previous statements about Islam not being anarchist and the
law not being _enforcible_ despite the _law_ being applicable 


Hence on such clarification from the ulama [Islamic scholars] Muslims
in Britain before and after Imam Khomeinis fatwa made it very clear
that since Islamic law is not applicable to Britain the hadd
[compulsory] punishment cannot be applied here


I disagree with this conclusion about the _applicability_ of the 
Islamic law to all muslims wherever they may be The above conclusion 
does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion 
that the fatwa cannot be enforced according to Islamic law However 
I do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to Rushdie even were
it well founded

Wow from the above it looks like that from an Islamic viewpoint
Khomeinis fatwa constitutes a criminal act  perhaps I could
even go out on a limb and call Khomeini a criminal on this basis


Certainly putting a price on the head of Rushdie in Britain is a criminal 
act according to Islamic law 


Anyhow I think it is understood by _knowledgeable_ Muslims that
Khomeinis fatwa is Islamically illegitimate at least on the basis
expounded above  Others such as myself and others who have posted here
particularly Umar Khan and Gregg Jaeger I think go further and say
that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against Islamic law
according to our understanding

Yes





Gregg

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: NAVSTAR positions
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

  C-3's bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon.

or C-3  may orbit over  major users areas, and it may be
needed to provide  redundancy on that plane  while b-4  may orbit
over hicksville, and not have muc of a user community.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re NAVSTAR positions
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 7
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

  C3s bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon

or C3  may orbit over  major users areas and it may be
needed to provide  redundancy on that plane  while b4  may orbit
over hicksville and not have muc of a user community

pat

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 19
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <1993Apr16.151729.8610@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:

>Josh Hopkins (jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) replied:
>: Double wow.  Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall?
>Personnally, I don't know, but I'd like to try it sometime.

Are you volunteering? :)

> But a
>hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de-orbit
>to the next available landing site.

Will NASA have "available landing sites" in the Russian Republic, now that they
are Our Friends and Comrades?



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 19
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article 1993Apr161517298610aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes

Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu replied
 Double wow  Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall
Personnally I dont know but Id like to try it sometime

Are you volunteering 

 But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately deorbit
to the next available landing site

Will NASA have available landing sites in the Russian Republic now that they
are Our Friends and Comrades



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: ven@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Van E. Neie)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Purdue University Physics Department
Lines: 29

In article <1993Apr22.180630.18313@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> pearson@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (N. Shirlene Pearson) writes:
>jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>
>>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Would you mind posting the responses you get?
>I am also interested, and there may be others.
>
>Thanks,
>
>N. Shirlene Pearson
>pearson@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu

There is an excellent software program called Astro.calc that does that and
much more.  The latest address I have is

	MMI Corporation
	PO Box 19907
	Baltimore, MD  21211
	Phone (301) 366-1222


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Van E. Neie                                      ven@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu
Purdue University                                neie@purccvm.bitnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From venbohrphysicspurdueedu Van E Neie
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Purdue University Physics Department
Lines 29

In article 1993Apr2218063018313titantsdarlututexasedu pearsontsdarlututexasedu N Shirlene Pearson writes
jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes


Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

Would you mind posting the responses you get
I am also interested and there may be others

Thanks

N Shirlene Pearson
pearsontitantsdarlututexasedu

There is an excellent software program called Astrocalc that does that and
much more  The latest address I have is

	MMI Corporation
	PO Box 19907
	Baltimore MD  21211
	Phone 301 3661222


 

Van E Neie                                      venmaxwellphysicspurdueedu
Purdue University                                neiepurccvmbitnet


preprocess doc  From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 28

1.  Did you read the FAQs?

2.  If NO, Read the FAQs.

3.  IF YES, you wouldn't have posted such drivel.  The "Lord, Liar
    or Lunatic" argument is a false trilemma.  Even if you disprove
    Liar and Lunatic (which you haven't), you have not eliminated
    the other possibilities, such as Mistaken, Misdirected, or
    Misunderstood.  You have arbitrarily set up three and only
    three possibilities without considering others.

4.  Read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking.  If
    you think the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" discussion is an
    example of a good argument, you are in need of learning.

5.  Read the FAQs again, especially "Constructing a Logical
    Argument."

Ignore these instructions at your peril.  Disobeying them
leaves you open for righteous flaming.


-- 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  408/428-3553

Kids, please don't try this at home.  Remember, I post professionally.


after prepro  From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 28

1  Did you read the FAQs

2  If NO Read the FAQs

3  IF YES you wouldnt have posted such drivel  The Lord Liar
    or Lunatic argument is a false trilemma  Even if you disprove
    Liar and Lunatic which you havent you have not eliminated
    the other possibilities such as Mistaken Misdirected or
    Misunderstood  You have arbitrarily set up three and only
    three possibilities without considering others

4  Read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking  If
    you think the Lord Liar or Lunatic discussion is an
    example of a good argument you are in need of learning

5  Read the FAQs again especially Constructing a Logical
    Argument

Ignore these instructions at your peril  Disobeying them
leaves you open for righteous flaming


 
Maddi Hausmann                       madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp        San Jose California  4084283553

Kids please dont try this at home  Remember I post professionally


preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca>, agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes...
>In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|> 3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
> 
>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
> 

The Command Loss Timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the
spacecraft.  If the Command Loss Timer ever countdowns to zero, then the
spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with Earth and will go 
through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact.  The
Command Loss Timer is set to 264 hours and reset about once a week during 
the cruise phase, and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase.  
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes
In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 3  On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
 
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
 

The Command Loss Timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the
spacecraft  If the Command Loss Timer ever countdowns to zero then the
spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with Earth and will go 
through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact  The
Command Loss Timer is set to 264 hours and reset about once a week during 
the cruise phase and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase  
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 21
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>>>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>>>should not have available to use.
>>It is worse than others?
>Worse?  Maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the
>rules the US govt. supposedly follows.

Oh?

>>>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
>>>   "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"
>>Would you approve of such a motto?
>No.  ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
>was to change it to such as that.

What is wrong with *this* motto, now?  If you wouldn't approve of
even that one, I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general.  What do you think of "E plurbis unum?"

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re  writes

Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use
It is worse than others
Worse  Maybe not but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt supposedly follows

Oh

For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
   In god gods or godlessness we trust
Would you approve of such a motto
No  not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that

What is wrong with this motto now  If you wouldnt approve of
even that one I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general  What do you think of E plurbis unum

keith

preprocess doc  From: Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Surviving Large Accelerations?
Organization: Junior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu

Hi,
    I was reading through "The Spaceflight Handbook" and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit. The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g. He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans (and this was published
in 1986) have already withstood accelerations of 45g. All this is very
long-winded but here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
Can this be extended to larger accelerations?

Thanks is advance...
-Amruth Laxman


after prepro  From Amruth Laxman 
Subject Surviving Large Accelerations
Organization Junior Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu

Hi
    I was reading through The Spaceflight Handbook and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published
in 1986 have already withstood accelerations of 45g All this is very
longwinded but heres my question finally  Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable  with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration
Can this be extended to larger accelerations

Thanks is advance
Amruth Laxman


preprocess doc  From: jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu (Jim Scotti)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.
Lines: 33

In article <1993Apr21.170817.15845@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
>> > > 
>> > > April  1973     83 jupiter radii
>> > > August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii
>
>> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. ...
>
>> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
>
>Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?

Neil Gehrels is Prof. Tom Gehrels son.  Tom Gehrels was the discoverer
of P/Gehrels 3 (as well as about 4 other comets - the latest of which
does not bear his name, but rather the name "Spacewatch" since he was
observing with that system when he found the latest comet).  

>-- 
>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

---------------------------------------------
Jim Scotti 
{jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu}
Lunar & Planetary Laboratory
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721 USA
---------------------------------------------

after prepro  From jscottilplarizonaedu Jim Scotti
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Lunar  Planetary Laboratory Tucson AZ
Lines 33

In article 1993Apr2117081715845sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes

   Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
   
   April  1973     83 jupiter radii
   August 1970     3 jupiter radii

  Where 1 Jupiter radius  71000 km  44000 mi  00005 AU 

 Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language

Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person

Neil Gehrels is Prof Tom Gehrels son  Tom Gehrels was the discoverer
of PGehrels 3 as well as about 4 other comets  the latest of which
does not bear his name but rather the name Spacewatch since he was
observing with that system when he found the latest comet  

 
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto	Information  We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom				 The Prisoner


Jim Scotti 
jscottilplarizonaedu
Lunar  Planetary Laboratory
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721 USA


preprocess doc  From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 31

Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:

>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:

>>Now, Space Marketing

>>What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>>it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).

>I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
>effect on the overall sky brightness.  Venus is visible during the day,
>but nobody complains about that.  Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only

When I was at the Texas Star Party a few years ago, the sky was so dark
that Venus did, indeed, cause light pollution until it set.

Even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem.  Imagine observing an
object and halfway through your run, your object was occulted!

I would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not 
fanatically serious observers.

It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
 
George Krumins
-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  George Krumins                                                              |
|  gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu                                                   |

after prepro  From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 31

JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes

Now Space Marketing

What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night

I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness  Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that  Besides its in LEO so it would only

When I was at the Texas Star Party a few years ago the sky was so dark
that Venus did indeed cause light pollution until it set

Even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem  Imagine observing an
object and halfway through your run your object was occulted

I would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not 
fanatically serious observers

It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
 
George Krumins
 


  George Krumins                                                              
  gfk39017uxacsouiucedu                                                   

preprocess doc  From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: unix.C52Cw7.I6t
Organization: Blasny Blasny, Consolidated (Amherst, MA Offices)
Lines: 37

In article <1993Apr6.041343.24997@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>Roger and I have
>clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
>specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
>the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").
>
>There is really nothing else to discuss.

Apparently not.

In response to his claim that it "terrifies" gay people not to be able
to "indoctrinate children to our lifestyle" (or words to that effect),
I sent Roger a very calm, carefully-written, detailed letter
explaining simply why the BSA policy does, indeed terrify me.  I did
not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an
answer.  Thus far, I have not received an answer.  I can conclude only
that Roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not
worth defending.

>Trying to cloud the issue
>with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
>because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
>control their race but they can control their behavior).

In fact, that's exactly the point: people can control their behavior.
Because of that fact, there is no need for a blanket ban on
homosexuals.

>What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?

You tell me.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                /  ?Usted es la de la tele, eh?  !La madre
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /  del asesino!  !Ay, que graciosa!
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /    -- Pedro Almodovar

after prepro  From twpierceunixamherstedu Tim Pierce
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID unixC52Cw7I6t
Organization Blasny Blasny Consolidated Amherst MA Offices
Lines 37

In article 1993Apr604134324997cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes

Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight

There is really nothing else to discuss

Apparently not

In response to his claim that it terrifies gay people not to be able
to indoctrinate children to our lifestyle or words to that effect
I sent Roger a very calm carefullywritten detailed letter
explaining simply why the BSA policy does indeed terrify me  I did
not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an
answer  Thus far I have not received an answer  I can conclude only
that Roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not
worth defending

Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because its like comparing apples to oranges ie people cant
control their race but they can control their behavior

In fact thats exactly the point people can control their behavior
Because of that fact there is no need for a blanket ban on
homosexuals

What else is there to possibly discuss on recscouting on this issue

You tell me

 
____ Tim Pierce                  Usted es la de la tele eh  La madre
\   twpierceunixamherstedu   del asesino  Ay que graciosa
 \ BITnet TWPIERCEAMHERST      Pedro Almodovar

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 30

In article <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com> pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:
>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M".  They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.
>
>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal?  I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.

The situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years.
See the discussion of "high-power rocketry" in the rec.models.rockets
frequently-asked-questions list.

This is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy; you need
proper certification.  That can be had, mostly through Tripoli (the high-
power analog of the NAR), although the NAR is cautiously moving to extend
the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too.

You need special FAA authorization, but provided you aren't doing it under
one of the LAX runway approaches or something stupid like that, it's not
especially hard to arrange.

As with model rocketry, this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled
properly.  Proper handling takes more care, and you need a lot more empty
air to fly in, but it's basically just model rocketry scaled up.  As with
model rocketry, the high-power people use factory-built engines, which
eliminates the major safety hazard of do-it-yourself rocketry.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 30

In article  pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes
Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet

Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal  I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes

The situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years
See the discussion of highpower rocketry in the recmodelsrockets
frequentlyaskedquestions list

This is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy you need
proper certification  That can be had mostly through Tripoli the high
power analog of the NAR although the NAR is cautiously moving to extend
the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too

You need special FAA authorization but provided you arent doing it under
one of the LAX runway approaches or something stupid like that its not
especially hard to arrange

As with model rocketry this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled
properly  Proper handling takes more care and you need a lot more empty
air to fly in but its basically just model rocketry scaled up  As with
model rocketry the highpower people use factorybuilt engines which
eliminates the major safety hazard of doityourself rocketry
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc   zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
 <1p6rgcINNhfb@gap.caltech.edu> <1p88fi$4vv@fido.asd.sgi.com> 
 <1993Mar30.051246.29911@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <1p8nd7$e9f@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pa0stINNpqa@gap.caltech.edu> <1pan4f$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20

In article <1pieg7INNs09@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says "Here is an "objective
|> >moral system".  And then I start to ask him about the definitions
|> >that this "objective" system depends on, and, predictably, the whole
|> >thing falls apart.
|> 
|> It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it.  This doesn't mean that
|> an objective system can't exist.  It just means that one cannot be
|> implemented.

It's not the fact that it can't exist that bothers me.   It's 
the fact that you don't seem to be able to define it.

If I wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in
principle exist as long as you don't think about them too
carefully, I could ask a religious person, now couldn't I?

jon.

after prepro   zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re  1p88fi4vvfidoasdsgicom 
 1993Mar3005124629911blazecsjhuedu 1p8nd7e9ffidoasdsgicom 1pa0stINNpqagapcaltechedu 1pan4fb6jfidoasdsgicom
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20

In article 1pieg7INNs09gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says Here is an objective
 moral system  And then I start to ask him about the definitions
 that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole
 thing falls apart
 
 It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it  This doesnt mean that
 an objective system cant exist  It just means that one cannot be
 implemented

Its not the fact that it cant exist that bothers me   Its 
the fact that you dont seem to be able to define it

If I wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in
principle exist as long as you dont think about them too
carefully I could ask a religious person now couldnt I

jon

preprocess doc  From: Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
            <1993Apr23.124759.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>
Lines: 29

In <1993Apr23.124759.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey writes:
>In article <19930422.121236.246@almaden.ibm.com>, Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert) writes:
>> 3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
>>    This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.
>
>Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "Level 5" comes
>from? It sounds like the RISKS Digest  equivalent of Large, Extra
>Large, Jumbo... Or maybe it's like "Defcon 5..."
>
>I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
>care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in
>the computing world is Level 1, or cheesy dime-store software.  Not
>surprising.  But who is it that invents this standard, and how come
>everyone but me seems to be familiar with it?

Level 5 refers to the Carnegie-Mellon Software Engineering Institute's
Capability Maturity Model.  This model rates software development
org's from1-5.  with 1 being Chaotic and 5 being Optimizing.  DoD is
beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts.  I
have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000.  I have a 20-30 page
presentation that summarizes it wethat I could FAX to you if you're
interested...
Bret Wingert
Wingert@VNET.IBM.COM

(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077



after prepro  From WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert
Subject Re Level 5
Organization IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
            1993Apr231247591fnalffnalgov
Lines 29

In 1993Apr231247591fnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
In article 19930422121236246almadenibmcom WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert writes
 3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
    This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA

Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term Level 5 comes
from It sounds like the RISKS Digest  equivalent of Large Extra
Large Jumbo Or maybe its like Defcon 5

I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1 or cheesy dimestore software  Not
surprising  But who is it that invents this standard and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it

Level 5 refers to the CarnegieMellon Software Engineering Institutes
Capability Maturity Model  This model rates software development
orgs from15  with 1 being Chaotic and 5 being Optimizing  DoD is
beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts  I
have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000  I have a 2030 page
presentation that summarizes it wethat I could FAX to you if youre
interested
Bret Wingert
WingertVNETIBMCOM

7132827534
FAX 7132828077



preprocess doc  From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: EnviroLeague
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 117
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com


A new alternative to Scouting for those "unacceptable to BSA" for reasons
of religious or sexual preference:


From: "BOYD R. CRITZ, III" <71611.365@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: EnviroLeague

"Birth Announcement" on March 7, 1993, from EARTH Forum, CompuServe
                       Information Service
===================================================================
 
                     FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT
                     -------------------
 
                                     (SM)
                        EnviroLeague
 
A new youth movement,"EnviroLeague," was recently born, according to its
founder, Boyd R. Critz, III (CIS ID# 71611,365), of Peoria, Illinois.
EnviroLeague exists for the education of youth, both male and female, in
matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our
environment.
 
Incorporated as an Illinois not-for-profit corporation, its Articles and
initial applications for a service mark have now been filed.  According to
Critz, its draft Bylaws contain the following statement of Mission and
Objectives:
 
                           MISSION
 
   It is the Mission of EnviroLeague and its adult members
   to foster and implement the improved education of young
   people in the need to conduct their lives as Stewards
   of The Earth, to leave The Earth in a better condition
   than they found it, and to otherwise act as responsible,
   moral and ethical users of their environment.  To pursue
   the accomplishment of this Mission, EnviroLeague shall
   seek to serve as a catalyst, focusing in common cause the
   separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation,
   improvement, and responsible use of the environment in
   which we must all live.
 
                         OBJECTIVES
 
   In pursuit of the Mission of EnviroLeague, its primary
   objectives shall be:
       (1)  To establish a Movement involving as many
            environmentally concerned organizations as
            possible, said Movement having as its primary
            focus the education and participatory
            involvement of young people in appropriate areas
            of environmental concern;
       (2)  To develop and provide to such organizations and
            their branches a full complement of program
            materials for their use, including suitable
            uniforms, insignia and other badges, written
            ideas, syllabi and information, literature and
            other items as shall seem appropriate and
            desirable;
       (3)  To serve as a "clearing house" for the exchange
            of program ideas, materials and information
            among said organizations;  and
       (4)  To assist environmentally concerned
            organizations to recruit and train the necessary
            adult leadership for their youth programs.
 
EnviroLeague will operate through three "Program Divisions" serving youth in
the elementary, middle and high school grades, respectively.  Service shall be
through formation of "EnviroLeague Teams," either by EnviroLeague itself or by
environmentally conscious organizations (or their local branches) wishing a
charter to use programs developed by EnviroLeague.
 
EnviroLeague, as it develops, will be controlled by the actual adult leaders
of each local Team, and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to
membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper
conduct. Organizations accepting a charter may, however, impose certain
additional standards for their own use of the program material.  Should such
organizations do so, EnviroLeague will commit itself to forming, as soon as
possible, new nearby Teams having no such restrictions, particularly as to
youth membership.
 
EnviroLeague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to
contribute to developing its programs.  Thus, the top youth leaders of its
Teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any
local administrative groups, and those for its high school youth may be
involved in similar functions at the national level.
 
Program materials are in development at this time.  Copies of the "draft"
portions of the Mentor's Manual (manual for adult leadership) will be in the
EARTH Forum, Library 17. These files will be updated as development takes
place.
 
CompuServe is particularly proud that EnviroLeague's founder chose this
electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation.
This announcement is being made simultaneously in both the OUTDOOR and EARTH
Forums.
 
The electronic home of EnviroLeague is in CompuServe's Earth Forum - GO
EARTH - message and library areas 17, both named "EnviroLeague."
============================================================================
 
Subsequently, EnviroLeague's Initial Governance Council has held its first
meeting.  Boyd Critz was elected as the first EnviroLeague Chief Guardian
(equivalent to Chairman of the Board or CEO).  He can be reached at home
(309) 675-4483 in case of real need.  Also, mail can be addressed to:
       EnviroLeague
       P.O. Box 418
       Peoria, IL  61651-0418
 
Those interested in starting an EnviroLeague Team might just establish
contact, to receive a diskette (IBM DOS, ASCII) with initial information.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...


after prepro  From cdtswstratuscom C D Tavares
Subject Re EnviroLeague
Organization Stratus Computer Inc
Lines 117
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost rocketswstratuscom


A new alternative to Scouting for those unacceptable to BSA for reasons
of religious or sexual preference


From BOYD R CRITZ III 71611365CompuServeCOM
Subject EnviroLeague

Birth Announcement on March 7 1993 from EARTH Forum CompuServe
                       Information Service

 
                     FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT
                     
 
                                     SM
                        EnviroLeague
 
A new youth movementEnviroLeague was recently born according to its
founder Boyd R Critz III CIS ID 71611365 of Peoria Illinois
EnviroLeague exists for the education of youth both male and female in
matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our
environment
 
Incorporated as an Illinois notforprofit corporation its Articles and
initial applications for a service mark have now been filed  According to
Critz its draft Bylaws contain the following statement of Mission and
Objectives
 
                           MISSION
 
   It is the Mission of EnviroLeague and its adult members
   to foster and implement the improved education of young
   people in the need to conduct their lives as Stewards
   of The Earth to leave The Earth in a better condition
   than they found it and to otherwise act as responsible
   moral and ethical users of their environment  To pursue
   the accomplishment of this Mission EnviroLeague shall
   seek to serve as a catalyst focusing in common cause the
   separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation
   improvement and responsible use of the environment in
   which we must all live
 
                         OBJECTIVES
 
   In pursuit of the Mission of EnviroLeague its primary
   objectives shall be
       1  To establish a Movement involving as many
            environmentally concerned organizations as
            possible said Movement having as its primary
            focus the education and participatory
            involvement of young people in appropriate areas
            of environmental concern
       2  To develop and provide to such organizations and
            their branches a full complement of program
            materials for their use including suitable
            uniforms insignia and other badges written
            ideas syllabi and information literature and
            other items as shall seem appropriate and
            desirable
       3  To serve as a clearing house for the exchange
            of program ideas materials and information
            among said organizations  and
       4  To assist environmentally concerned
            organizations to recruit and train the necessary
            adult leadership for their youth programs
 
EnviroLeague will operate through three Program Divisions serving youth in
the elementary middle and high school grades respectively  Service shall be
through formation of EnviroLeague Teams either by EnviroLeague itself or by
environmentally conscious organizations or their local branches wishing a
charter to use programs developed by EnviroLeague
 
EnviroLeague as it develops will be controlled by the actual adult leaders
of each local Team and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to
membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper
conduct Organizations accepting a charter may however impose certain
additional standards for their own use of the program material  Should such
organizations do so EnviroLeague will commit itself to forming as soon as
possible new nearby Teams having no such restrictions particularly as to
youth membership
 
EnviroLeague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to
contribute to developing its programs  Thus the top youth leaders of its
Teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any
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EARTH Forum Library 17 These files will be updated as development takes
place
 
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This announcement is being made simultaneously in both the OUTDOOR and EARTH
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The electronic home of EnviroLeague is in CompuServes Earth Forum  GO
EARTH  message and library areas 17 both named EnviroLeague

 
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309 6754483 in case of real need  Also mail can be addressed to
       EnviroLeague
       PO Box 418
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Those interested in starting an EnviroLeague Team might just establish
contact to receive a diskette IBM DOS ASCII with initial information
 

cdtrocketswstratuscom   If you believe that I speak for my company
OR cdtvosstratuscom        write today for my special Investors Packet


preprocess doc  From: shag@aero.org (Rob Unverzagt)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Article-I.D.: news.1pscc6INNebg
Organization: Organization?  You must be kidding.
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: aerospace.aero.org

In article <1pr5u2$t0b@agate.berkeley.edu> ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48) writes:
> I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
> first and second grade (69-70, 70-71).  They came in Chocolate,
> strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
> and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed
> like space foil at the time).  

Wasn't there a "plain" flavor too?  They looked more like some
kind of extruded industrial product than food -- perfectly
smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends.  Kinda scary.

> The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly.  It was
> most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar."  Sort of
> a toffee injected with vitamins.  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
> approximation of the taste.  Strawberry sucked.

An other post described it as like a "microwaved Tootsie Roll" --
which captures the texture pretty well.  As for taste, they were
like candy, only not very sweet -- does that make sense? I recall
liking them for their texture, not taste. I guess I have well
developed texture buds.

> Man, these were my "60's."

It was obligatory to eat a few while watching "Captain Scarlet".
Does anybody else remember _that_, as long as we're off the
topic of space?

Shag

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
       Rob Unverzagt        |
  shag@aerospace.aero.org   |       Tuesday is soylent green day.
unverzagt@courier2.aero.org | 

after prepro  From shagaeroorg Rob Unverzagt
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
ArticleID news1pscc6INNebg
Organization Organization  You must be kidding
Lines 35
NNTPPostingHost aerospaceaeroorg

In article 1pr5u2t0bagateberkeleyedu ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48 writes
 I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
 first and second grade 6970 7071  They came in Chocolate
 strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
 and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed
 like space foil at the time  

Wasnt there a plain flavor too  They looked more like some
kind of extruded industrial product than food  perfectly
smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends  Kinda scary

 The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly  It was
 most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar  Sort of
 a toffee injected with vitamins  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
 approximation of the taste  Strawberry sucked

An other post described it as like a microwaved Tootsie Roll 
which captures the texture pretty well  As for taste they were
like candy only not very sweet  does that make sense I recall
liking them for their texture not taste I guess I have well
developed texture buds

 Man these were my 60s

It was obligatory to eat a few while watching Captain Scarlet
Does anybody else remember _that_ as long as were off the
topic of space

Shag

 

       Rob Unverzagt        
  shagaerospaceaeroorg          Tuesday is soylent green day
unverzagtcourier2aeroorg  

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says "Here is an "objective
>moral system".  And then I start to ask him about the definitions
>that this "objective" system depends on, and, predictably, the whole
>thing falls apart.

It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it.  This doesn't mean that
an objective system can't exist.  It just means that one cannot be
implemented.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says Here is an objective
moral system  And then I start to ask him about the definitions
that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole
thing falls apart

It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it  This doesnt mean that
an objective system cant exist  It just means that one cannot be
implemented

keith

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 68
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993

Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab

By Karre Marino
     Some 15 years after his first visit to JPL, Prof. Stephen
Hawking, Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge
University and author of "A Brief History of Time," returned to
the Lab April 5.
     On a tour hosted by JPL Chief Scientist Dr. Moustafa Chahine
and Merle McKenzie, manager of the International Affairs Office,
Hawking visited a variety of facilities, met with Lab Director
Dr. Edward Stone and various project scientists and managers, and
felt "like royalty," he said. Hawking, whose theories attempt to
explain the origin of distant galaxies, black holes and alternate
dimensions, wanted to re-visit JPL, he explained, "because while
I'm most interested in those things in space that are farther
away, I know that here is where the first steps are taken."
     Hawking, who was accompanied by his family, two graduate
students and his aides, began the tour in von Karman Auditorium,
as David Evans, deputy assistant Lab director in the Office of
Flight Projects, and Dr. Arden Albee, Mars Observer's project
scientist, briefed him on current and past flight projects.
     Voyager was pointed out to him, with special attention paid
to a gold plate with a series of engraved images. Should
extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft, Evans noted,
they would find a variety of images that would explain something
of Earth. The professor asked if we were still communicating with
the spacecraft, and Evans affirmed that we are.
     Using a model of Mars Observer, Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecraft's features. In answer
to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
a concept." Chahine, who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
years before, described the professor as "a living miracle of the
power of the brain. He's miraculous, and he has such a good sense
of humor."
     The next stop, a demonstration on scientific data
visualization in Section 384's Digital Image Animation Lab,
entertained and delighted the group, as everyone donned goggles
to view 3-D images of Mars. Project Scientist Dr. Eric De Jong
showed off the latest data -- a comet that had only recently been
discovered in orbit close to Jupiter. Hawking was curious about
its composition, and as he was shown how images are developed, he
asked several questions on their interpretation.
     Norman Haynes, ALD, Office of Telecommunications and Data
Acquisition, briefed the professor on the Space Flight Operations
Facility, and then Hawking spoke with Stone.
     The day ended with two technical discussions of particular
interest to the professor. Technical Group Leader Dr. Frank
Estabrook and Senior Research Scientist Hugo Wahlquist described
a three-spacecraft gravity wave experiment, currently under way.
Then planetary astronomer Dr. Richard Terrile explained the
philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection.
     The Hawking party, which had been visiting Southern
California for five weeks, was headquartered at Caltech, and
planned to leave for England within a few weeks after the Lab
tour. Upon departing, the Cambridge-based scientist promised
Chahine that he would return to JPL for another visit.
                          ###
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 68
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993

Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab

By Karre Marino
     Some 15 years after his first visit to JPL Prof Stephen
Hawking Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge
University and author of A Brief History of Time returned to
the Lab April 5
     On a tour hosted by JPL Chief Scientist Dr Moustafa Chahine
and Merle McKenzie manager of the International Affairs Office
Hawking visited a variety of facilities met with Lab Director
Dr Edward Stone and various project scientists and managers and
felt like royalty he said Hawking whose theories attempt to
explain the origin of distant galaxies black holes and alternate
dimensions wanted to revisit JPL he explained because while
Im most interested in those things in space that are farther
away I know that here is where the first steps are taken
     Hawking who was accompanied by his family two graduate
students and his aides began the tour in von Karman Auditorium
as David Evans deputy assistant Lab director in the Office of
Flight Projects and Dr Arden Albee Mars Observers project
scientist briefed him on current and past flight projects
     Voyager was pointed out to him with special attention paid
to a gold plate with a series of engraved images Should
extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft Evans noted
they would find a variety of images that would explain something
of Earth The professor asked if we were still communicating with
the spacecraft and Evans affirmed that we are
     Using a model of Mars Observer Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecrafts features In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept Chahine who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
years before described the professor as a living miracle of the
power of the brain Hes miraculous and he has such a good sense
of humor
     The next stop a demonstration on scientific data
visualization in Section 384s Digital Image Animation Lab
entertained and delighted the group as everyone donned goggles
to view 3D images of Mars Project Scientist Dr Eric De Jong
showed off the latest data  a comet that had only recently been
discovered in orbit close to Jupiter Hawking was curious about
its composition and as he was shown how images are developed he
asked several questions on their interpretation
     Norman Haynes ALD Office of Telecommunications and Data
Acquisition briefed the professor on the Space Flight Operations
Facility and then Hawking spoke with Stone
     The day ended with two technical discussions of particular
interest to the professor Technical Group Leader Dr Frank
Estabrook and Senior Research Scientist Hugo Wahlquist described
a threespacecraft gravity wave experiment currently under way
Then planetary astronomer Dr Richard Terrile explained the
philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection
     The Hawking party which had been visiting Southern
California for five weeks was headquartered at Caltech and
planned to leave for England within a few weeks after the Lab
tour Upon departing the Cambridgebased scientist promised
Chahine that he would return to JPL for another visit
                          
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: S901924@mailserv.cuhk.hk
Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
Summary: Dong ....  Dong ....  Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
Nntp-Posting-Host: wksb14.csc.cuhk.hk
Organization: Computer Services Centre, C.U.H.K.
Distribution: World
Lines: 36

In article <C4M8E5.AuD@csn.org> et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor) writes:
>From: et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor)
>Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
>Summary: Dong ....  Dong ....  Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
>Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 20:18:04 GMT
>In article <C4KvJF.4qo@well.sf.ca.us> metares@well.sf.ca.us (Tom Van Flandern) writes:
>>crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>> Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott) writes:
>>>> "Existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in
>>>> physics.
>>> [crb] Dong ....  Dong ....  Dong ....  Do I hear the death-knell of
>>> string theory?
>>
>>     I agree.  You can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other
>>unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list,
>>including the omni-present "black holes."
>>
>>     Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
>>alone?  Then what about my original criticism, when I said "Curvature
>>can only exist relative to something non-curved"?  Bruce replied:
>>"'Existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in
>>physics.  We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about."
>>At the moment I don't see a way to defend that statement and the
>>existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously.  -|Tom|-
>
>"I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have
>no properties."
>"Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
>space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved,
>is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I,
>for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - Nikola Tesla
>
>----
> ET  "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes."
>----

after prepro  From S901924mailservcuhkhk
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization  Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong   Dong   Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
NntpPostingHost wksb14csccuhkhk
Organization Computer Services Centre CUHK
Distribution World
Lines 36

In article  ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor writes
From ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization  Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong   Dong   Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
Date Sun 28 Mar 1993 201804 GMT
In article  metareswellsfcaus Tom Van Flandern writes
crb7qkelvinseasVirginiaEDU Cameron Randale Bass writes
 BruceScottlaunchpaduncedu Bruce Scott writes
 Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
 physics
 [crb] Dong   Dong   Dong   Do I hear the deathknell of
 string theory

     I agree  You can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other
unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list
including the omnipresent black holes

     Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
alone  Then what about my original criticism when I said Curvature
can only exist relative to something noncurved  Bruce replied
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics  We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about
At the moment I dont see a way to defend that statement and the
existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously  Tom

I hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have
no properties
Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing I
for one refuse to subscribe to such a view  Nikola Tesla


 ET  Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time Perhaps now his time comes


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <6APR199314571378@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
|Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
|been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973.  Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
|may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
|make some closeup observations.  The orbital trajectory for Comet
|Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
a

What about positional uncertainties in S-L 1993e?   I assume we know where
and what Galileo is doing within a few meters.   But without the
HGA,  don't we have to have some pretty good ideas, of where to look
before imaging?  If the HGA was working,  they could slew around
in near real time (Less speed of light delay).  But when they were
imaging toutatis????  didn't someone have to get lucky on a guess to
find the first images?   

Also, I imagine S-L 1993e will be mostly a visual image.  so how will
that affect the other imaging missions.  with the LGA,  there is a real
tight allocation of bandwidth.   It may be premature to hope for answers,
but I thought i'd throw it on the floor.

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 6APR199314571378kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973  Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations  The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
a

What about positional uncertainties in SL 1993e   I assume we know where
and what Galileo is doing within a few meters   But without the
HGA  dont we have to have some pretty good ideas of where to look
before imaging  If the HGA was working  they could slew around
in near real time Less speed of light delay  But when they were
imaging toutatis  didnt someone have to get lucky on a guess to
find the first images   

Also I imagine SL 1993e will be mostly a visual image  so how will
that affect the other imaging missions  with the LGA  there is a real
tight allocation of bandwidth   It may be premature to hope for answers
but I thought id throw it on the floor

pat


preprocess doc  From: clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Central Florida
Lines: 19

I posted this over in sci.astro, but it didn't make it here.
Thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary :-)

What? You guys have never seen the Goodyear blimp polluting
the daytime and nightime skies?

Actually an oribital sign would only be visible near
sunset and sunrise, I believe.  So pollution at night
would be minimal.

If it pays for space travel, go for it.  Those who don't
like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine
environment of Jupiter's moons :-)

---
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training, University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway, Suite 300, Orlando, FL 32826
(407)658-5030, FAX: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu

after prepro  From clarkeacmeucfedu Thomas Clarke
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Central Florida
Lines 19

I posted this over in sciastro but it didnt make it here
Thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary 

What You guys have never seen the Goodyear blimp polluting
the daytime and nightime skies

Actually an oribital sign would only be visible near
sunset and sunrise I believe  So pollution at night
would be minimal

If it pays for space travel go for it  Those who dont
like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine
environment of Jupiters moons 


Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway Suite 300 Orlando FL 32826
4076585030 FAX 4076585059 clarkeacmeucfedu

preprocess doc  Organization: ESOC European Space Operations Centre
From: <TNEDDERH@ESOC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Apollo Training in Iceland
Distribution: sci
Lines: 10

The Apollo astronauts also trained at (in) Meteor Crater in the Flagstaff
area (Arizona).  There is now a museum with a space shop.
Caution: they ease you by 6$. Compared to a KSC visit it's not worth.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Thorsten Nedderhut             |  Disclaimer:
mbp Software & Systems GmbH    |
c/o ESA/ESOC/FCSD/OAD/STB      |  Neither ESA nor mbp is responsible
Darmstadt, Germany             |  for my postings!
tnedderh@esoc.bitnet           |

after prepro  Organization ESOC European Space Operations Centre
From 
Subject Re Apollo Training in Iceland
Distribution sci
Lines 10

The Apollo astronauts also trained at in Meteor Crater in the Flagstaff
area Arizona  There is now a museum with a space shop
Caution they ease you by 6 Compared to a KSC visit its not worth


Thorsten Nedderhut               Disclaimer
mbp Software  Systems GmbH    
co ESAESOCFCSDOADSTB        Neither ESA nor mbp is responsible
Darmstadt Germany               for my postings
tnedderhesocbitnet           

preprocess doc  From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 32

In <1993Apr15.234154.23145@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:

>As for the future, there is at least $5M in next years budget for work
>on SSRT. They (SDIO) have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
>some. However, SDIO is not (I repeat, is not) going to fund an orbital
>prototype. The best we can hope from them is to 1) keep it alive for
>another year, and 2) fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT (with
>major modifications) just make orbit. There is also some money for a
>set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions.

Would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket?


>Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort. The USAF managers of
>this program are very open to SSTO and will have about $50M next
>year for studies. This would be enough to bring DC-Y to PDR.

Thank Ghod! I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS.


(And just as a reminder:)
>Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
>for spending half on DC.

>Public support is STILL critical. Meet with your Congressperson (I'll
>help you do it) and get his/her support. Also call your local media
>and get them to cover the flight tests.




after prepro  From schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher
Subject Re DCX update
NntpPostingHost starmanconvexcom
Organization CONVEX Computer Corporation Richardson Tx USA
XDisclaimer This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX
Lines 32

In 1993Apr1523415423145itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes

As for the future there is at least 5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT They SDIO have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some However SDIO is not I repeat is not going to fund an orbital
prototype The best we can hope from them is to 1 keep it alive for
another year and 2 fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT with
major modifications just make orbit There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions

Would the suborbital version be suitable asis or aswillbe for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket


Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about 50M next
year for studies This would be enough to bring DCY to PDR

Thank Ghod I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS


And just as a reminder
Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC

Public support is STILL critical Meet with your Congressperson Ill
help you do it and get hisher support Also call your local media
and get them to cover the flight tests




preprocess doc  From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Islam is caused by believing (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 40



In article <1993Apr13.173100.29861@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>>I'm only saying that anything can happen under atheism.  Being a
>>beleiver, a knowledgeable one in religion, only good can happen.

This is becoming a tiresome statement.  Coming from you it is 
a definition, not an assertion:

   Islam is good.  Belief in Islam is good.  Therefore, being a 
   believer in Islam can produce only good...because Islam is
   good. Blah blah blah.

That's about as circular as it gets, and equally meaningless.  To
say that something produces only good because it is only good that 
it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition.  And
all you're application is saying that it's true if you really 
believe it's true.  That's silly.

Conversely, you say off-handedly that _anything_ can happen under
atheism.  Again, just an offshoot of believe-it-and-it-becomes-true-
don't-believe-it-and-it-doesn't.  

Like other religions I'm aquainted with, Islam teaches exclusion and
caste, and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no
logical call for punishment (certain limits on speech and sex, for
example).  To me this is not good.  I see much pain and suffering
without any justification, except for the _waving of the hand_ of
some inaccessible god.

By the by, you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly.
For what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of
terms.  I infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith.
And If you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing
to do with it, does it?

-jim halat
   


after prepro  From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Islam is caused by believing was Re Genocide is Caused by Theism
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 40



In article 1993Apr1317310029861ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

Im only saying that anything can happen under atheism  Being a
beleiver a knowledgeable one in religion only good can happen

This is becoming a tiresome statement  Coming from you it is 
a definition not an assertion

   Islam is good  Belief in Islam is good  Therefore being a 
   believer in Islam can produce only goodbecause Islam is
   good Blah blah blah

Thats about as circular as it gets and equally meaningless  To
say that something produces only good because it is only good that 
it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition  And
all youre application is saying that its true if you really 
believe its true  Thats silly

Conversely you say offhandedly that _anything_ can happen under
atheism  Again just an offshoot of believeitanditbecomestrue
dontbelieveitanditdoesnt  

Like other religions Im aquainted with Islam teaches exclusion and
caste and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no
logical call for punishment certain limits on speech and sex for
example  To me this is not good  I see much pain and suffering
without any justification except for the _waving of the hand_ of
some inaccessible god

By the by you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly
For what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of
terms  I infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith
And If you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing
to do with it does it

jim halat
   


preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr22.213815.12288
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22

In <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:

> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!

If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, I'd swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly.  I also find the
choice of newsgroups 'interesting'.  Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'?

It's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country.  Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do.

[In case you haven't gotten it yet, David, I don't think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ArticleID mksol1993Apr2221381512288
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22

In 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes

 ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY

If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words Id swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly  I also find the
choice of newsgroups interesting  Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that sciastro doesnt stand for astrology

Its truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country  Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks were all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do

[In case you havent gotten it yet David I dont think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups]

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 14

In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu+ wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:
+
+I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
+really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  (or even better, a
+Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.  
+
Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum. Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
disastrous deflation.

-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131

after prepro  From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Boom  Whoosh
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 14

In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes

I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt  or even better a
Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec  

Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
disastrous deflation

 
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131

preprocess doc  From: Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: atheist?
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 50

I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:

> In article <ii1i2B1w165w@mantis.co.uk>
> Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>  
> (Deletion)
> >
> >My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
> >belief for me to be comfortable with. Any strong atheists out there
> >care to comment? 
>[...]
> Humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent. It is one
> of the artifacts of human thought. The evidence for that is quite
> overwhelming. And the information content of the conceived is vanishing.
>  
> In other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and
> it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods.
>  
> The concept is useless, and I don't have to introduce new assumptions
> in order to show that.
>  
> No leap of faith required for me. Your mileage may vary.

Yes I fully agree with that, but is it "I don't believe gods exist", or
"I believe no gods exist"? As MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean.

Unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak
atheism, at least according to the FAQ:

# Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
# Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist.  The former is
# often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
# atheism".
# 
# It is important to note the difference between these two positions.  "Weak
# atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God.  "Strong
# atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist.  Please do not
# fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".

(From mathew's "An Introduction to Atheism" version 1.2 last modified 5-Apr-93)

Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"?
Can it?

-- 
Tony Lezard IS tony@mantis.co.uk OR tony%mantis.co.uk@uknet.ac.uk OR things
like tony%uk.co.mantis@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay OR (last resort) arl10@phx.cam.ac.uk
PGP 2.2 public key available on request.


after prepro  From Tony Lezard 
Subject Re atheist
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Lines 50

I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes

 In article 
 Tony Lezard  writes
  
 Deletion
 
 My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
 belief for me to be comfortable with Any strong atheists out there
 care to comment 
[]
 Humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent It is one
 of the artifacts of human thought The evidence for that is quite
 overwhelming And the information content of the conceived is vanishing
  
 In other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and
 it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods
  
 The concept is useless and I dont have to introduce new assumptions
 in order to show that
  
 No leap of faith required for me Your mileage may vary

Yes I fully agree with that but is it I dont believe gods exist or
I believe no gods exist As MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean

Unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak
atheism at least according to the FAQ

 Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God
 Some atheists go further and believe that God does not exist  The former is
 often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong
 atheism
 
 It is important to note the difference between these two positions  Weak
 atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of God  Strong
 atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist  Please do not
 fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists

From mathews An Introduction to Atheism version 12 last modified 5Apr93

Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief
Can it

 
Tony Lezard IS tonymantiscouk OR tonymantiscoukuknetacuk OR things
like tonyukcomantisukacnsfnetrelay OR last resort arl10phxcamacuk
PGP 22 public key available on request


preprocess doc  From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
            <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Lines: 9

In <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> George F. Krumins writes:
>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
 Umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about
here ..
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Nicholls ...         : Vidi
nicho@vnet.ibm.com or     : Vici
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni

after prepro  From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
            
Lines 9

In  George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
 Umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about
here 
 
Greg Nicholls           Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or      Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk  Veni

preprocess doc  From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu

In article <1993Apr5.011255.7295@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Now can we please use rec.scouting for the purpose for which it was
>established?  Clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to
>provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their
>anti-societal political views.

Ok, this is the only thing I will comment on from Stan at this time...
part of this forum we call rec.scouting is for policy discussions and
related topics.  This is a policy discussion, and involves related 
topics.  this is not a "fringe" group discussion.  obviously, it 
engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand. 
Wether a particular view is anti-societal or not is your opinion, 
and yours alone, don't try to make it seem otherwise. 
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion, use a kill file. 
If you wish to continue in this discussion, please do so, knowing 
full well the implications that apply.
I know for myself that I plan on continuing with the discussion when 
i have the wish to have input.  I for one am tired of people trying to 
say that this is not a matter significant for this group!  It is, and 
quite so. Especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely.


****************************************************************
*  Dominick V. Zurlo              *    "If the world's an      *
*  WWW                            *    oyster, why am I        *
*  Eagle Scout '87                *    allergic to Mollusks?"  *
*  blacklisted '88                *                            *
****************************************************************



after prepro  From anthropocarinaunmedu Dominick V Zurlo
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost carinaunmedu

In article 1993Apr50112557295cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes
Now can we please use recscouting for the purpose for which it was
established  Clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to
provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their
antisocietal political views

Ok this is the only thing I will comment on from Stan at this time
part of this forum we call recscouting is for policy discussions and
related topics  This is a policy discussion and involves related 
topics  this is not a fringe group discussion  obviously it 
engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand 
Wether a particular view is antisocietal or not is your opinion 
and yours alone dont try to make it seem otherwise 
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion use a kill file 
If you wish to continue in this discussion please do so knowing 
full well the implications that apply
I know for myself that I plan on continuing with the discussion when 
i have the wish to have input  I for one am tired of people trying to 
say that this is not a matter significant for this group  It is and 
quite so Especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely



  Dominick V Zurlo                  If the worlds an      
  WWW                                oyster why am I        
  Eagle Scout 87                    allergic to Mollusks  
  blacklisted 88                                            




preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 16

In article <1993Apr10.125109.25265@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:

>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

>>Could you please explain in what way the Qur'an in your eyes carries
>>"the excess baggage of another era"? The Qur'an in my opinion carries
>>no such baggage. 

>How about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on
>loans.  From what I hear, even fundamentalist Iran is having to
>compromise this ideal.

Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly?


Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 16

In article 1993Apr1012510925265bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes

Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote

Could you please explain in what way the Quran in your eyes carries
the excess baggage of another era The Quran in my opinion carries
no such baggage 

How about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on
loans  From what I hear even fundamentalist Iran is having to
compromise this ideal

Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly


Gregg

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr19.130503.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
> With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints 
> by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about 
> that might just work.
> 
> Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
> who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
> Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
> to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
> 
> --
>   gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
> theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
====
If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
in Australia..
Anybody game for a contest!

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr191305031
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
 With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints 
 by government over the large cost why not try something I read about 
 that might just work
 
 Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
 who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
 Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
 to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
 
 
   genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
 theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
in Australia
Anybody game for a contest


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: TRUE "GLOBE", Who makes it?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 12

In article <bill.047m@xpresso.UUCP> bill@xpresso.UUCP (Bill Vance) writes:
>It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
>shaped than globular/spherical.  Does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate
>as to actual shape, landmass configuration/Long/Lat lines etc.?

I don't think you're going to be able to see the differences from a sphere
unless they are greatly exaggerated.  Even the equatorial bulge is only
about 1 part in 300 -- you'd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe --
and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller.
-- 
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS.    - Dick Dunn  |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re TRUE GLOBE Who makes it
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 12

In article  billxpressoUUCP Bill Vance writes
It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globularspherical  Does anyone make a globe that is accurate
as to actual shape landmass configurationLongLat lines etc

I dont think youre going to be able to see the differences from a sphere
unless they are greatly exaggerated  Even the equatorial bulge is only
about 1 part in 300  youd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe 
and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller
 
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision    Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS     Dick Dunn    henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Ozone GIFs Available
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 90
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Ozone, UARS, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

                         ==========================
                               OZONE GIF IMAGES
                                April 15, 1993
                         ==========================

     Two GIF images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern
hemispheres are now available at the JPL Info public access site.  These maps
were produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite (UARS), and are courtesy of the Public Information Office
at JPL.  Note that the images are in GIF89a format, so make sure your display
software supports this format (as opposed to the older GIF87a format).  The
caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message,
as well as being embedded in the images.  The images are available by dialup
modem at +1 (818) 354-1333, up to 9600 bps, parameters N-8-1, or by using
anonymous ftp to:

        ftp:      pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2)
        user:     anonymous
        cd:       news (will be moved to the images directory in 30 days)
        files:    ozone93a.gif - Northern hemisphere
                  ozone93b.gif - Southern hemisphere

     Also, photographic prints of these images can be ordered from Newell Color
Lab listed below.  Refer to the P number associated with the images when
ordering.

     Newell Color Lab
     221 N. Westmoreland Avenue
     Los Angeles CA 90064
     Telephone: (213) 380-2980
     FAX: (213) 739-6984

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ozone93a.gif

PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109.  TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011

PHOTO                                                     P-42210
                                                   April 14, 1993

This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over Earth's
northern hemisphere in February 1992 and 1993.  These maps were
produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper
Atmosphere Research Satellite.  The chlorine monoxide (ClO) maps
(left) are for a layer about 20 kilometers (66,000 feet) above
the Earth's surface on February 17, 1992 (above) and 1993
(below).  The ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude
of about 12 kilometers (41,000 feet) averaged over the period
from February 15 to March 6 for the two years.  The Microwave
Limb Sounder, developed and operated by a team at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is one of several instruments on the
Goddard Space Flight Center's Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite, launched in September 1991.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ozone93b.gif

PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109.  TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011

PHOTO CAPTION                                             P-42211
                                                   April 14, 1993

This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide (ClO) and the Antarctic
ozone hole.  These maps, produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder
aboard the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite, show the amount
of chlorine monoxide (left) and ozone (right) in the stratosphere
at altitudes above 20 kilometers (66,000 feet).  Very small
abundances of ozone appear where there are large abundances of
chlorine monoxide, the dominant form of chlorine that destroys
ozone.  Data from September 21, 1991 (top) are compared with
those from September 20, 1992 (bottom).  The Microwave Limb
Sounder, developed and operated by a team at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is one of several instruments on Goddard
Space Flight Center's Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
launched September 12, 1991.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Ozone GIFs Available
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 90
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Ozone UARS JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

                         
                               OZONE GIF IMAGES
                                April 15 1993
                         

     Two GIF images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern
hemispheres are now available at the JPL Info public access site  These maps
were produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite UARS and are courtesy of the Public Information Office
at JPL  Note that the images are in GIF89a format so make sure your display
software supports this format as opposed to the older GIF87a format  The
caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message
as well as being embedded in the images  The images are available by dialup
modem at 1 818 3541333 up to 9600 bps parameters N81 or by using
anonymous ftp to

        ftp      pubinfojplnasagov 12814962
        user     anonymous
        cd       news will be moved to the images directory in 30 days
        files    ozone93agif  Northern hemisphere
                  ozone93bgif  Southern hemisphere

     Also photographic prints of these images can be ordered from Newell Color
Lab listed below  Refer to the P number associated with the images when
ordering

     Newell Color Lab
     221 N Westmoreland Avenue
     Los Angeles CA 90064
     Telephone 213 3802980
     FAX 213 7396984


ozone93agif

PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109  TELEPHONE 818 3545011

PHOTO                                                     P42210
                                                   April 14 1993

This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over Earths
northern hemisphere in February 1992 and 1993  These maps were
produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper
Atmosphere Research Satellite  The chlorine monoxide ClO maps
left are for a layer about 20 kilometers 66000 feet above
the Earths surface on February 17 1992 above and 1993
below  The ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude
of about 12 kilometers 41000 feet averaged over the period
from February 15 to March 6 for the two years  The Microwave
Limb Sounder developed and operated by a team at NASAs Jet
Propulsion Laboratory is one of several instruments on the
Goddard Space Flight Centers Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite launched in September 1991


ozone93bgif

PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109  TELEPHONE 818 3545011

PHOTO CAPTION                                             P42211
                                                   April 14 1993

This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide ClO and the Antarctic
ozone hole  These maps produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder
aboard the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite show the amount
of chlorine monoxide left and ozone right in the stratosphere
at altitudes above 20 kilometers 66000 feet  Very small
abundances of ozone appear where there are large abundances of
chlorine monoxide the dominant form of chlorine that destroys
ozone  Data from September 21 1991 top are compared with
those from September 20 1992 bottom  The Microwave Limb
Sounder developed and operated by a team at NASAs Jet
Propulsion Laboratory is one of several instruments on Goddard
Space Flight Centers Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
launched September 12 1991
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Clipper Launch Article
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 40

To All -- I thought the net would find this amusing..
  
From the March 1993 "Aero Vision" (The newsletter for the Employees
of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach, California).
  
  SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
  
  "On Monday, March 15 at noon, Quest Aerospace Education, Inc.
  launched two DC-Y Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria.
  The first rocket was launched by Dr. Bill Gaubatz, director and
  SSTO program manager, and the second by Air Force Captain Ed
  Spalding, who with Staff Sgt. Don Gisburne represents Air Force
  Space Command, which was requested by SDIO to assess the DC-X for
  potential military operational use.  Both rocket launches were
  successful.  The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria
  and Building 11, and the second landed on the roof of the
  cafeteria.
  
  Quest's Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the
  McDonnell Douglas DC-X.  The 1/122nd semi-scale model of the
  McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude
  of 300 feet.  The Space Clippers can be used in educational
  settings to teach mathematics and science, as well as social
  studies and other applications.  The Space Clipper is available
  either in the $35 Space Clipper outfit, which includes everything
  needed for three launches, or as individual rockets for $12 each.
  Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1-800-858-
  7302."
  
By the way -- this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is
it an advertisement to buy the product.  I make no claims about the
product.  This is posted for public information only (hey, I found
it amusing...), and is merely a repeat of what was included in the
MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter.
  
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 Wales Larrison                         Space Technology Investor
  

--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Clipper Launch Article
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 40

To All  I thought the net would find this amusing
  
From the March 1993 Aero Vision The newsletter for the Employees
of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach California
  
  SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
  
  On Monday March 15 at noon Quest Aerospace Education Inc
  launched two DCY Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria
  The first rocket was launched by Dr Bill Gaubatz director and
  SSTO program manager and the second by Air Force Captain Ed
  Spalding who with Staff Sgt Don Gisburne represents Air Force
  Space Command which was requested by SDIO to assess the DCX for
  potential military operational use  Both rocket launches were
  successful  The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria
  and Building 11 and the second landed on the roof of the
  cafeteria
  
  Quests Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the
  McDonnell Douglas DCX  The 1122nd semiscale model of the
  McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude
  of 300 feet  The Space Clippers can be used in educational
  settings to teach mathematics and science as well as social
  studies and other applications  The Space Clipper is available
  either in the 35 Space Clipper outfit which includes everything
  needed for three launches or as individual rockets for 12 each
  Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1800858
  7302
  
By the way  this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is
it an advertisement to buy the product  I make no claims about the
product  This is posted for public information only hey I found
it amusing and is merely a repeat of what was included in the
MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter
  

 Wales Larrison                         Space Technology Investor
  

 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

In article <1r6f3a$2ai@news.umbc.edu> rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian) writes:
>>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
>of the daylight.  You should be able to convert the information here
>to sunrise and sunset times.

Sorry, not so -- the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not
quite synchronized.  For example, neither the earliest sunrise nor the
latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year.

You can derive day length from sunrise and sunset times, but not
vice-versa.

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14

In article 1r6f3a2ainewsumbcedu roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight  You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times

Sorry not so  the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not
quite synchronized  For example neither the earliest sunrise nor the
latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year

You can derive day length from sunrise and sunset times but not
viceversa

preprocess doc  From: bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines: 122
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: thnext.mit.edu

In article <1993Apr5.163738.2447@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>  
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
[deleted]
> 
> ... over on alt.atheism we tend to recognise two
> categories of atheism. Function format due to mathew@mantis.co.uk, I  
think:
> 
> (i) weak  -  not(believe(gods))
> 
> (ii) strong  -  believe(not(gods))
> 
[deleted]
> 
> 
> 
> I ... am [a strong atheist], and I must quibble with your assertion 
> that the `strong' position requires faith. I believe that no god/s, 
> as commonly described by theists, exist. This belief is merely an 
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> opinion, formed on the basis of observation, including a certain 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> amount of introspection.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I fully accept that I could be wrong, and will be swayed by suitably
> convincing evidence. Thus while I believe that no gods exist, this does
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> not imply *faith* on my part that it is so.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me first say that "to believe that no gods exist" is in fact 
different than "not believing in a god or gods". 

I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement 
that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't  
know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than saying  
I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the position, even 
after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires faith.

But first let me say the following.
We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
God".
 
We also might differ upon what it means to have faith. Here is what
Webster says:

faith 
1a: allegiance to duty or a person: LOYALTY
b  (1): fidelity to one's promises
   (2): sincerity of intentions
2a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
   (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b  (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed esp. with strong conviction; esp: a system 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of religious beliefs
syn see BELIEF



One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief. All observations
can only point you in a direction - a direction that we might even
be predisposed to (by predisposed I mean, for example, people whoes 
partents "believe in God" also tend to). To actually draw a conclusion
about the "existence" or "non-existence" of God requires a leap - and
you have made this leap when you actively say "I believe that God  
does/does not exist". Personally, I think that both statements are
misguided. Arguing over the "existence" of God is precisely the wrong way
to find Him (and yes, I use "Him" because a personal God is the only 
viable concept (IMO) - if a person wants to use "She" go ahead. Of course 
God is neither He nor She - but we have no choice but to 
anthropomorphise. If you want me to explain myself further I'll be 
glad to.) 



And please, if someone does not agree with me - even if they violently 
disagree - it's in no ones advantage to start name calling. If a person 
thinks I've misunderstood something in the FAQs, or if they they think 
I have not read them well enough, just point out to me the error of my 
ways and I correct the situation. I'm interested in a polite and well  
thought out discussion.








> Cheers
> 
> Simon
> -- 
> Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
> Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
> University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
> Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.

--
bob singleton
bobs@thnext.mit.edu

after prepro  From bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines 122
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost thnextmitedu

In article 1993Apr51637382447dcswarwickacuk  
simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale writes
[deleted]
 
  over on altatheism we tend to recognise two
 categories of atheism Function format due to mathewmantiscouk I  
think
 
 i weak    notbelievegods
 
 ii strong    believenotgods
 
[deleted]
 
 
 
 I  am [a strong atheist] and I must quibble with your assertion 
 that the `strong position requires faith I believe that no gods 
 as commonly described by theists exist This belief is merely an 
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 opinion formed on the basis of observation including a certain 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 amount of introspection
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
 I fully accept that I could be wrong and will be swayed by suitably
 convincing evidence Thus while I believe that no gods exist this does
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 not imply faith on my part that it is so
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me first say that to believe that no gods exist is in fact 
different than not believing in a god or gods 

I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
does rest upon faith  that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement 
that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont  
know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than saying  
I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the position even 
after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires faith

But first let me say the following
We might have a language problem here  in regards to faith and
existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
being  God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
to debate the so called existence of God  and that is not what
Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
statement  but we obviously mean two different things by it However
in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
usual sense  and this is the sense that I think you are using it
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
God
 
We also might differ upon what it means to have faith Here is what
Webster says

faith 
1a allegiance to duty or a person LOYALTY
b  1 fidelity to ones promises
   2 sincerity of intentions
2a 1 belief and trust in and loyalty to God
   2 belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b  1 firm belief in something for which there is no proof
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   2 complete trust
3 something that is believed esp with strong conviction esp a system 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of religious beliefs
syn see BELIEF



One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
you refering to There are NO observations  pro or con  that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief All observations
can only point you in a direction  a direction that we might even
be predisposed to by predisposed I mean for example people whoes 
partents believe in God also tend to To actually draw a conclusion
about the existence or nonexistence of God requires a leap  and
you have made this leap when you actively say I believe that God  
doesdoes not exist Personally I think that both statements are
misguided Arguing over the existence of God is precisely the wrong way
to find Him and yes I use Him because a personal God is the only 
viable concept IMO  if a person wants to use She go ahead Of course 
God is neither He nor She  but we have no choice but to 
anthropomorphise If you want me to explain myself further Ill be 
glad to 



And please if someone does not agree with me  even if they violently 
disagree  its in no ones advantage to start name calling If a person 
thinks Ive misunderstood something in the FAQs or if they they think 
I have not read them well enough just point out to me the error of my 
ways and I correct the situation Im interested in a polite and well  
thought out discussion








 Cheers
 
 Simon
  
 Simon Clippingdale                simondcswarwickacuk
 Department of Computer Science    Tel 44 203 523296
 University of Warwick             FAX 44 203 525714
 Coventry CV4 7AL UK


bob singleton
bobsthnextmitedu

preprocess doc  From: yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
Subject: Re: Societally acceptable behavior
Organization: Kansas State University
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: citation.ksu.ksu.edu


In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>Merely a question for the basis of morality
>
>Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.

I disagree with these.  What society thinks should be irrelevant.  What the
individual decides is all that is important.

>
>1)Who is society

I think this is fairly obvious

>
>2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?

Generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy I can
think of.

>
>3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?

By thinking for ourselves.

>
>MAC
>--
>****************************************************************
>                                                    Michael A. Cobb
> "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
>    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
>          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
>                                              
>With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From yohancitationksuksuedu Jonathan W Newton
Subject Re Societally acceptable behavior
Organization Kansas State University
Lines 35
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost citationksuksuedu


In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
Merely a question for the basis of morality

MoralEthical behavior  _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_

I disagree with these  What society thinks should be irrelevant  What the
individual decides is all that is important


1Who is society

I think this is fairly obvious


2How do they define what is acceptable

Generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy I can
think of


3How do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position

By thinking for ourselves


MAC


                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Russian Email Contacts.
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

Does anyone have any Russian Contacts (Space or other) or contacts in the old
USSR/SU or Eastern Europe?

Post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions..
I think the cost of email is high, so we would have to  keep the content to
specific topics and such..

Basically if we want to save Russia and such, then we need to make contacts,
contacts are a form of info, so lets get informing.

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

Alive in Nome, Alaska (once called Russian America).


after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Russian Email Contacts
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

Does anyone have any Russian Contacts Space or other or contacts in the old
USSRSU or Eastern Europe

Post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions
I think the cost of email is high so we would have to  keep the content to
specific topics and such

Basically if we want to save Russia and such then we need to make contacts
contacts are a form of info so lets get informing


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

Alive in Nome Alaska once called Russian America


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>>No, that's just what you thought the theory meant.  While all humans
>>are generally capable of overpowering their instincts, it does not
>>follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent.
>Ok, so why aren't animals "generally capable of overpowering their instincts"?

Good question.  I'm sure some biologist could answer better than I,
but animals brains are just set up differently.

Animals *can* be trained, but if they're instincts serve them well, there is
no reason to contradict them.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re No thats just what you thought the theory meant  While all humans
are generally capable of overpowering their instincts it does not
follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent
Ok so why arent animals generally capable of overpowering their instincts

Good question  Im sure some biologist could answer better than I
but animals brains are just set up differently

Animals can be trained but if theyre instincts serve them well there is
no reason to contradict them

keith

preprocess doc  From: Chris W. Johnson <chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: New DC-x gif
Organization: University of Texas at Austin Computation Center
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d20
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7F316D13D01BE1F@gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu>
X-XXDate: Thu, 15 Apr 93 19:42:41 GMT

In article <Cohen-150493082611@q5022531.mdc.com> Andy Cohen,
Cohen@ssdgwy.mdc.com writes:
> I just uploaded "DCXart2.GIF" to bongo.cc.utexas.edu...after Chris Johnson
> moves it, it'll probably be in pub/delta-clipper.

Thanks again Andy.

The image is in pub/delta-clipper now. The name has been changed to 
"dcx-artists-concept.gif" in the spirit of verboseness. :-)

----Chris

Chris W. Johnson

Internet:   chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
UUCP:       {husc6|uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!chrisj
CompuServe: >INTERNET:chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
AppleLink:  chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu@internet#

...wishing the Delta Clipper team success in the upcoming DC-X flight tests.

after prepro  From Chris W Johnson 
Subject Re New DCx gif
Organization University of Texas at Austin Computation Center
Lines 20
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost gargravarrccutexasedu
XUserAgent Nuntius v111d20
XXXMessageID 
XXXDate Thu 15 Apr 93 194241 GMT

In article  Andy Cohen
Cohenssdgwymdccom writes
 I just uploaded DCXart2GIF to bongoccutexaseduafter Chris Johnson
 moves it itll probably be in pubdeltaclipper

Thanks again Andy

The image is in pubdeltaclipper now The name has been changed to 
dcxartistsconceptgif in the spirit of verboseness 

Chris

Chris W Johnson

Internet   chrisjemxccutexasedu
UUCP       husc6uunetcsutexaseduutemxchrisj
CompuServe INTERNETchrisjemxccutexasedu
AppleLink  chrisjemxccutexaseduinternet

wishing the Delta Clipper team success in the upcoming DCX flight tests

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Golden & Space ages
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 17

Pat sez;
>Oddly, enough,  The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
>the golden age of flight.  I would call it the granite years,
>reflecting the primitive nature of it.  It was  romantic,
>swashbuckling daredevils,  "those daring young men in their flying
>machines".  But in reality, it sucked.  Death was a highly likely
>occurence,  and  the environment blew.

Yeah, but a windscreen cut down most of it.  Canopies ended it completely.

Of course, the environment in space continues to suck :-)

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Golden  Space ages
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 17

Pat sez
Oddly enough  The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight  I would call it the granite years
reflecting the primitive nature of it  It was  romantic
swashbuckling daredevils  those daring young men in their flying
machines  But in reality it sucked  Death was a highly likely
occurence  and  the environment blew

Yeah but a windscreen cut down most of it  Canopies ended it completely

Of course the environment in space continues to suck 

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov

> Keesler, Loftus, Potter, Stansbery, Kubriek....?

I gues it is Keesler. The others do not ring the bell but they might be 
involved as well. Sometime ago Keesler was here at Langley teaching 
a course on space debris and, if my memory does not fai,l I think there
was even a reference to a book on the subject.

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 10
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov

 Keesler Loftus Potter Stansbery Kubriek

I gues it is Keesler The others do not ring the bell but they might be 
involved as well Sometime ago Keesler was here at Langley teaching 
a course on space debris and if my memory does not fail I think there
was even a reference to a book on the subject

COEgalonlarcnasagov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
>>or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden
>>by the US Constitution.
>Yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why
>a) you have the Supreme Court, and b) it makes no sense to refer
>to the Constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the
>word "cruel".

They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution.  They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent.  We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word.  Isn't this sufficient?

>>Oh, but we were discussing the death penalty (and that discussion
>>resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial
>>discussion about objective morality--so this is already three times
>>removed from the morality discussion).
>Actually, we were discussing the mening of the word "cruel" and
>the US Constitution says nothing about that.

But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty.  And, the
Constitution need not define each of the words within.  Anyone who doesn't
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did).

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden
by the US Constitution
Yes but they didnt say what they meant by cruel which is why
a you have the Supreme Court and b it makes no sense to refer
to the Constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the
word cruel

They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution  They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent  We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word  Isnt this sufficient

Oh but we were discussing the death penalty and that discussion
resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial
discussion about objective moralityso this is already three times
removed from the morality discussion
Actually we were discussing the mening of the word cruel and
the US Constitution says nothing about that

But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty  And the
Constitution need not define each of the words within  Anyone who doesnt
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did

keith

preprocess doc  From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Quaint US Archaisms
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra
Organization: Texas Instruments
Lines: 41

In article <C512wC.B0M.1@cs.cmu.edu>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr2.170157.24251@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
|> 
<stuff deleted>
|> Of course the units of force have the same names as those of weight,
|> but in order to use them you need to keep useful constants like the
|> omnipresent 32.???? ft/sec^2 around.
|> 
|> Maybe you'd like to go over again how this system is _so_ natural and
|> _so_ easy to use, Gary? While you're at it, you can figure out for us
|> the weight of 17 barrels and a quart of foo (density 17lb 2 3/4 oz per
|> cubic foot) on the moon (gravity 5 ft 7 3/32 in/sec^2). Let's face it,
|> even the imperial system uses a basically metric way of relating
|> quantities (i.e. that would be written as 5.59 ft/sec^2); the only
|> thing you're hanging on to is the right to express the same quantity
|> as 1731 inches, 144.25 feet, 48.0833 yards or 2.186 chains. What
|> everyone else is saying is _why_ do you want to do that?
|> 
|> Any apparent remaining complexity in the SI system is due to the
|> multiplicity of the aforesaid prefixes. In fact what's going on (and
|> the fundamental difference between SI and imperial) is that you have
|> exactly one unit of each type, and all values of that type are
|> expressed as some multiple of the unit.

You mean like: seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years. . .  :-)

Remember,  the Fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale.  Some
revisionists tell the history something like this:  The coldest point in a
particular Russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body
temperature of a volunteer (turns out he was sick, but you can't win 'em all).
Then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into
hundredths.
								:-)

FWIW,

Doug Page


***  The opinions are mine (maybe), and do not necessarily represent those  ***
***  of my employer (or any other sane person, fot that matter).            ***

after prepro  From dpageracscticom Doug Page
Subject Re Quaint US Archaisms
NntpPostingHost ra
Organization Texas Instruments
Lines 41

In article  nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
 In article 1993Apr217015724251ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes
 

 Of course the units of force have the same names as those of weight
 but in order to use them you need to keep useful constants like the
 omnipresent 32 ftsec^2 around
 
 Maybe youd like to go over again how this system is _so_ natural and
 _so_ easy to use Gary While youre at it you can figure out for us
 the weight of 17 barrels and a quart of foo density 17lb 2 34 oz per
 cubic foot on the moon gravity 5 ft 7 332 insec^2 Lets face it
 even the imperial system uses a basically metric way of relating
 quantities ie that would be written as 559 ftsec^2 the only
 thing youre hanging on to is the right to express the same quantity
 as 1731 inches 14425 feet 480833 yards or 2186 chains What
 everyone else is saying is _why_ do you want to do that
 
 Any apparent remaining complexity in the SI system is due to the
 multiplicity of the aforesaid prefixes In fact whats going on and
 the fundamental difference between SI and imperial is that you have
 exactly one unit of each type and all values of that type are
 expressed as some multiple of the unit

You mean like seconds minutes hours days months years    

Remember  the Fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale  Some
revisionists tell the history something like this  The coldest point in a
particular Russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body
temperature of a volunteer turns out he was sick but you cant win em all
Then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into
hundredths
								

FWIW

Doug Page


  The opinions are mine maybe and do not necessarily represent those  
  of my employer or any other sane person fot that matter            

preprocess doc  From: ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu (George Hastings)
Subject: Re: Space on other nets
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Richmond)
Lines: 17

   We run "SpaceNews & Views" on our STAREACH BBS, a local
operation running WWIV software with the capability to link to
over 1500 other BBS's in the U.S.A. and Canada through WWIVNet.
   Having just started this a couple of months ago, our sub us
currently subscribed by only about ten other boards, but more
are being added.
   We get our news articles re on Internet, via ftp from NASA
sites, and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals. We
get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students
who access the system.
 ____________________________________________________________
| George Hastings		ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu |  
| Space Science Teacher		72407.22@compuserve.com      |  If it's not
| Mathematics & Science Center 	STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533   |   FUN, it's
| 2304 Hartman Street		OFFICE:       804-343-6525   |  probably not
| Richmond, VA 23223		FAX:          804-343-6529   |    SCIENCE!
 ------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu George Hastings
Subject Re Space on other nets
Organization Virginias Public Education Network Richmond
Lines 17

   We run SpaceNews  Views on our STAREACH BBS a local
operation running WWIV software with the capability to link to
over 1500 other BBSs in the USA and Canada through WWIVNet
   Having just started this a couple of months ago our sub us
currently subscribed by only about ten other boards but more
are being added
   We get our news articles re on Internet via ftp from NASA
sites and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals We
get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students
who access the system
 ____________________________________________________________
 George Hastings		ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu   
 Space Science Teacher		7240722compuservecom        If its not
 Mathematics  Science Center 	STAREACH BBS 8043436533      FUN its
 2304 Hartman Street		OFFICE       8043436525     probably not
 Richmond VA 23223		FAX          8043436529       SCIENCE
 

preprocess doc  From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 70

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

Or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the
Messiah, or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of Jews built
into Godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of Roman oppression,
or.......

>	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
>die for a lie? 

Are the Moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into
Jewish embassies dying for the truth (hint: they think they are)? Were the
NAZI soldiers in WWII dying for the truth? 

People die for lies all the time.


>Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 

Was Hitler a liar? How about Napoleon, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan? We spend
millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying? So the
answer is no, they wouldn't be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied
about some things.

>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
>someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
>heal people.  

Why do you think he healed people, because the Bible says so? But if God
doesn't exist (the other possibility) then the Bible is not divinely
inspired and one can't use it as a piece of evidence, as it was written by
unbiased observers.

>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 

Were Hitler or Mussolini lunatics? How about Genghis Khan, Jim Jones...
there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to
lunatics.

>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
>this right away.
>	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
>real thing.  

So we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other
possibilities not given in this triad.

>	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 

Possibly self-fulfilling prophecy (ie he was aware what he should do in
order to fulfil these prophecies), possibly selective diting on behalf of
those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the
general; public had access. possibly also that the text is written in such
riddles (like Nostradamus) that anything that happens can be twisted to fit
the words of raving fictional 'prophecy'.

>and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
>write I will use it.
             [stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted]

I severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian, they
are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer.

Jeff.


after prepro  From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 70

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was

Or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the
Messiah or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of Jews built
into Godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of Roman oppression
or

	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie 

Are the Moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into
Jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are Were the
NAZI soldiers in WWII dying for the truth 

People die for lies all the time


Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 

Was Hitler a liar How about Napoleon Mussolini Ronald Reagan We spend
millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying So the
answer is no they wouldnt be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied
about some things

gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
heal people  

Why do you think he healed people because the Bible says so But if God
doesnt exist the other possibility then the Bible is not divinely
inspired and one cant use it as a piece of evidence as it was written by
unbiased observers

	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 

Were Hitler or Mussolini lunatics How about Genghis Khan Jim Jones
there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to
lunatics

anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away
	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  

So we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other
possibilities not given in this triad

	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 

Possibly selffulfilling prophecy ie he was aware what he should do in
order to fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting on behalf of
those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the
general public had access possibly also that the text is written in such
riddles like Nostradamus that anything that happens can be twisted to fit
the words of raving fictional prophecy

and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
write I will use it
             [stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted]

I severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian they
are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer

Jeff


preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 08/15 - Addresses
Supersedes: <addresses_730956515@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 230
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:58:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/addresses
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:38:55 $

CONTACTING NASA, ESA, AND OTHER SPACE AGENCIES/COMPANIES

Many space activities center around large Government or International
Bureaucracies.	In the US that means NASA.  If you have basic information
requests: (e.g., general PR info, research grants, data, limited tours, and
ESPECIALLY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT (typically resumes should be ready by Jan.  1),
etc.), consider contacting the nearest NASA Center to answer your questions.

EMail typically will not get you any where, computers are used by
investigators, not PR people. The typical volume of mail per Center is a
multiple of 10,000 letters a day. Seek the Public Information Office at one
of the below, this is their job:

NASA (The National Aeronautics and Space Administration) is the
civilian space agency of of the United States Federal Government.
It reports directly to the White House and is not a Cabinet
post such as the military Department of Defense.  Its 20K+ employees
are civil servants and hence US citizens.  Another 100K+ contractors
also work for NASA.

NASA CENTERS

    NASA Headquarters (NASA HQ)
    Washington DC 20546
    (202)-358-1600

	Ask them questions about policy, money, and things of political
	nature. Direct specific questions to the appropriate center.

    NASA Ames Research Center (ARC)
    Moffett Field, CA 94035
    (415)-694-5091

	Some aeronautical research, atmosphere reentry, Mars and Venus
	planetary atmospheres. "Lead center" for Helicopter research,
	V/STOL, etc. Runs Pioneer series of space probes.

    NASA Ames Research Center
    Dryden Flight Research Facility [DFRF]
    P. O. Box 273
    Edwards, CA  93523
    (805)-258-8381

	Aircraft, mostly. Tested the shuttle orbiter landing
	characteristics. Developed X-1, D-558, X-3, X-4, X-5, XB-70, and of
	course, the X-15.

    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC)
    Greenbelt, MD 20771
    [Outside of Washington DC]
    (301)-344-6255

	Earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets. Developed
	LANDSAT.

    Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)
    California Institute of Technology
    4800 Oak Grove Dr.
    Pasadena, CA 91109
    (818)-354-5011

	The "heavies" in planetary research probes and other unmanned
	projects (they also had a lot to do with IRAS). They run Voyager,
	Magellan, Galileo, and will run Cassini, CRAF, etc. etc.. For
	images, probe navigation, and other info about unmanned exploration,
	this is the place to go.

	JPL is run under contract for NASA by the nearby California
	Institute of Technology, unlike the NASA centers above. This
	distinction is subtle but critical. JPL has different requirements
	for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires. For instance in
	the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
	contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
	They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.

	A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
	FTP in

	    ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription

    NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
    Houston, TX 77058
    (713)-483-5111

	JSC manages Space Shuttle, ground control of manned missions.
	Astronaut training. Manned mission simulators.

    NASA Kennedy Space Flight Center (KSC)
    Titusville, FL 32899
    (407)-867-2468

	Space launch center. You know this one.

    NASA Langley Research Center (LaRC)
    Hampton, VA 23665
    [Near Newport News, VA]
    (804)-865-2935

	Original NASA site. Specializes in theoretical and experimental
	flight dynamics. Viking. Long Duration Exposure Facility.

    NASA Lewis Research Center (LeRC)
    21000 Brookpark Rd.
    Cleveland, OH 44135
    (216)-433-4000

	Aircraft/Rocket propulsion. Space power generation. Materials
	research.

    NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC)
    Huntsville, AL 35812
    (205)-453-0034

	Development, production, delivery of Solid Rocket Boosters, External
	Tank, Orbiter main engines. Propulsion and launchers.

    Michoud Assembly Facility
    Orleans Parish
    New Orleans, LA 70129
    (504)-255-2601

	Shuttle external tanks are produced here; formerly Michoud produced
	first stages for the Saturn V.

    Stennis Space Center
    Bay St. Louis, Mississippi 39529
    (601)-688-3341

	Space Shuttle main engines are tested here, as were Saturn V first
	and second stages. The center also does remote-sensing and
	technology-transfer research.

    Wallops Flight Center
    Wallops Island, VA 23337
    (804)824-3411
	    Aeronautical research, sounding rockets, Scout launcher.

    Manager, Technology Utilization Office
    NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility
    Post Office Box 8757
    Baltimore, Maryland 21240

    Specific requests for software must go thru COSMIC at the Univ. of
    Georgia, NASA's contracted software redistribution service. You can
    reach them at cosmic@uga.bitnet.

    NOTE: Foreign nationals requesting information must go through their
    Embassies in Washington DC. These are facilities of the US Government
    and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity. Centers
    cannot directly return information without high Center approval. Allow
    at least 1 month for clearance. This includes COSMIC.

The US Air Force Space Command can be contacted thru the Pentagon along with
    other Department of Defense offices. They have unacknowledged offices in
    Los Angeles, Sunnyvale, Colorado Springs, and other locations. They have
    a budget which rivals NASA in size.

ARIANESPACE HEADQUARTERS
    Boulevard de l'Europe
    B.P. 177
    91006 Evry Cedex
    France

ARIANESPACE, INC.
    1747 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 875
    Washington, DC 20006
    (202)-728-9075

EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY (ESA)
    955 L'Enfant Plaza S.W.
    Washington, D.C. 20024
    (202)-488-4158

NATIONAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (NASDA)
    4-1 Hamamatsu-Cho, 2 Chome
    Minato-Ku, Tokyo 105, JAPAN

SOYUZKARTA
    45 Vologradsij Pr.
    Moscow 109125
    USSR

SPACE CAMP
    Alabama Space and Rocket Center	U.S. SPACE CAMP
    1 Tranquility Base			6225 Vectorspace Blvd
    Huntsville, AL 35805		Titusville FL  32780
    (205)-837-3400			(407)267-3184

    Registration and mailing list are handled through Huntsville -- both
    camps are described in the same brochure.

    Programs offered at Space Camp are:

	Space Camp - one week, youngsters completing grades 4-6
	Space Academy I - one week, grades 7-9
	Aviation Challenge - one week high school program, grades 9-11
	Space Academy II - 8 days, college accredited, grades 10-12
	Adult Program - 3 days (editorial comment: it's great!)
	Teachers Program - 5 days

SPACE COMMERCE CORPORATION (U.S. agent for Soviet launch services)
    504 Pluto Drive		    69th flr, Texas Commerce Tower
    Colorado Springs, CO 80906	    Houston, TX 77002
    (719)-578-5490		    (713)-227-9000

SPACEHAB
    600 Maryland Avenue, SW
    Suite 201 West
    Washington, DC 20004
    (202)-488-3483

SPOT IMAGE CORPORATION
    1857 Preston White Drive,
    Reston, VA 22091
    (FAX) (703)-648-1813    (703)-620-2200


OTHER COMMERCIAL SPACE BUSINESSES

    Vincent Cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety
of companies in space-related businesses. This is mailed out on the
space-investors list he runs (see the "Network Resources" FAQ) and is also
available by anonymous ftp from furmint.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.209.111) in
/usr/vac/ftp/space-companies.


NEXT: FAQ #9/15 - Schedules for space missions, and how to see them

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0815  Addresses
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 230
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195829 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spaceaddresses
Lastmodified Date 930401 143855 

CONTACTING NASA ESA AND OTHER SPACE AGENCIESCOMPANIES

Many space activities center around large Government or International
Bureaucracies	In the US that means NASA  If you have basic information
requests eg general PR info research grants data limited tours and
ESPECIALLY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT typically resumes should be ready by Jan  1
etc consider contacting the nearest NASA Center to answer your questions

EMail typically will not get you any where computers are used by
investigators not PR people The typical volume of mail per Center is a
multiple of 10000 letters a day Seek the Public Information Office at one
of the below this is their job

NASA The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is the
civilian space agency of of the United States Federal Government
It reports directly to the White House and is not a Cabinet
post such as the military Department of Defense  Its 20K employees
are civil servants and hence US citizens  Another 100K contractors
also work for NASA

NASA CENTERS

    NASA Headquarters NASA HQ
    Washington DC 20546
    2023581600

	Ask them questions about policy money and things of political
	nature Direct specific questions to the appropriate center

    NASA Ames Research Center ARC
    Moffett Field CA 94035
    4156945091

	Some aeronautical research atmosphere reentry Mars and Venus
	planetary atmospheres Lead center for Helicopter research
	VSTOL etc Runs Pioneer series of space probes

    NASA Ames Research Center
    Dryden Flight Research Facility [DFRF]
    P O Box 273
    Edwards CA  93523
    8052588381

	Aircraft mostly Tested the shuttle orbiter landing
	characteristics Developed X1 D558 X3 X4 X5 XB70 and of
	course the X15

    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center GSFC
    Greenbelt MD 20771
    [Outside of Washington DC]
    3013446255

	Earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets Developed
	LANDSAT

    Jet Propulsion Laboratory JPL
    California Institute of Technology
    4800 Oak Grove Dr
    Pasadena CA 91109
    8183545011

	The heavies in planetary research probes and other unmanned
	projects they also had a lot to do with IRAS They run Voyager
	Magellan Galileo and will run Cassini CRAF etc etc For
	images probe navigation and other info about unmanned exploration
	this is the place to go

	JPL is run under contract for NASA by the nearby California
	Institute of Technology unlike the NASA centers above This
	distinction is subtle but critical JPL has different requirements
	for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires For instance in
	the latter an SF 171 is useless Employees are Caltech employees
	contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities
	They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers

	A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
	FTP in

	    amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQJPLDescription

    NASA Johnson Manned Space Center JSC
    Houston TX 77058
    7134835111

	JSC manages Space Shuttle ground control of manned missions
	Astronaut training Manned mission simulators

    NASA Kennedy Space Flight Center KSC
    Titusville FL 32899
    4078672468

	Space launch center You know this one

    NASA Langley Research Center LaRC
    Hampton VA 23665
    [Near Newport News VA]
    8048652935

	Original NASA site Specializes in theoretical and experimental
	flight dynamics Viking Long Duration Exposure Facility

    NASA Lewis Research Center LeRC
    21000 Brookpark Rd
    Cleveland OH 44135
    2164334000

	AircraftRocket propulsion Space power generation Materials
	research

    NASA Marshall Space Flight Center MSFC
    Huntsville AL 35812
    2054530034

	Development production delivery of Solid Rocket Boosters External
	Tank Orbiter main engines Propulsion and launchers

    Michoud Assembly Facility
    Orleans Parish
    New Orleans LA 70129
    5042552601

	Shuttle external tanks are produced here formerly Michoud produced
	first stages for the Saturn V

    Stennis Space Center
    Bay St Louis Mississippi 39529
    6016883341

	Space Shuttle main engines are tested here as were Saturn V first
	and second stages The center also does remotesensing and
	technologytransfer research

    Wallops Flight Center
    Wallops Island VA 23337
    8048243411
	    Aeronautical research sounding rockets Scout launcher

    Manager Technology Utilization Office
    NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility
    Post Office Box 8757
    Baltimore Maryland 21240

    Specific requests for software must go thru COSMIC at the Univ of
    Georgia NASAs contracted software redistribution service You can
    reach them at cosmicugabitnet

    NOTE Foreign nationals requesting information must go through their
    Embassies in Washington DC These are facilities of the US Government
    and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity Centers
    cannot directly return information without high Center approval Allow
    at least 1 month for clearance This includes COSMIC

The US Air Force Space Command can be contacted thru the Pentagon along with
    other Department of Defense offices They have unacknowledged offices in
    Los Angeles Sunnyvale Colorado Springs and other locations They have
    a budget which rivals NASA in size

ARIANESPACE HEADQUARTERS
    Boulevard de lEurope
    BP 177
    91006 Evry Cedex
    France

ARIANESPACE INC
    1747 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Suite 875
    Washington DC 20006
    2027289075

EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY ESA
    955 LEnfant Plaza SW
    Washington DC 20024
    2024884158

NATIONAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY NASDA
    41 HamamatsuCho 2 Chome
    MinatoKu Tokyo 105 JAPAN

SOYUZKARTA
    45 Vologradsij Pr
    Moscow 109125
    USSR

SPACE CAMP
    Alabama Space and Rocket Center	US SPACE CAMP
    1 Tranquility Base			6225 Vectorspace Blvd
    Huntsville AL 35805		Titusville FL  32780
    2058373400			4072673184

    Registration and mailing list are handled through Huntsville  both
    camps are described in the same brochure

    Programs offered at Space Camp are

	Space Camp  one week youngsters completing grades 46
	Space Academy I  one week grades 79
	Aviation Challenge  one week high school program grades 911
	Space Academy II  8 days college accredited grades 1012
	Adult Program  3 days editorial comment its great
	Teachers Program  5 days

SPACE COMMERCE CORPORATION US agent for Soviet launch services
    504 Pluto Drive		    69th flr Texas Commerce Tower
    Colorado Springs CO 80906	    Houston TX 77002
    7195785490		    7132279000

SPACEHAB
    600 Maryland Avenue SW
    Suite 201 West
    Washington DC 20004
    2024883483

SPOT IMAGE CORPORATION
    1857 Preston White Drive
    Reston VA 22091
    FAX 7036481813    7036202200


OTHER COMMERCIAL SPACE BUSINESSES

    Vincent Cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety
of companies in spacerelated businesses This is mailed out on the
spaceinvestors list he runs see the Network Resources FAQ and is also
available by anonymous ftp from furmintnectarcscmuedu 1282209111 in
usrvacftpspacecompanies


NEXT FAQ 915  Schedules for space missions and how to see them

preprocess doc  From: mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 39

In article <1993Apr12.124221.22592@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>
>Oh, this all sounds so nice!  Everyone helping each other and always smiling
>and fluffy bunnies everywhere.  Wake up!  People are just not like that.  It
>seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
>upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people.  Isn't it obvious from
>places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
>then they are going to be attracted to positions of power?  Sounds like a
>recipe for disaster.
>
>-- 
>
>Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk

Leonard, I'll give you an example of this....

My father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised
60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and 
Muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another, why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims. In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay 
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community. 

The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight!
iThat is the beauty of Islam.

Mas


-- 
C I T I Z E N  +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
_____   _____  | C A D E N C E  D E S I G N  S Y S T E M S  Inc. |
     \_/       | Masud Ahmed Khan mas@cadence.com All My Opinions|
_____/ \_____  +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

after prepro  From masCadenceCOM Masud Khan
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage 
Organization Cadence Design Systems Inc
Lines 39

In article 1993Apr1212422122592bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes

Oh this all sounds so nice  Everyone helping each other and always smiling
and fluffy bunnies everywhere  Wake up  People are just not like that  It
seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people  Isnt it obvious from
places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
then they are going to be attracted to positions of power  Sounds like a
recipe for disaster

 

Leonard               email  LNewnhambradfordacuk

Leonard Ill give you an example of this

My father recently bought a business the business price was 150000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised
60000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and 
Muslims he knew 50000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay 
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community 

The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight
iThat is the beauty of Islam

Mas


 
C I T I Z E N  
_____   _____   C A D E N C E  D E S I G N  S Y S T E M S  Inc 
     \_        Masud Ahmed Khan mascadencecom All My Opinions
_____ \_____  

preprocess doc  From: mrf4276@egbsun12.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Matthew R. Feulner)
Subject: Re: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Nntp-Posting-Host: egbsun12.draper.com
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Lines: 18

In article <1993Apr20.234427.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|> Okay here is what I have so far:
|> 
|> Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
|> set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
|> that mean no resupply or ?? 
|> 
|> Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.


My first thought is Ross Perot.  After further consideration, I think he'd
be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third.

Try Bill Gates.  Try Sam Walton's kids.

Matt

matthew_feulner@qmlink.draper.com

after prepro  From mrf4276egbsun12NoSubdomainNoDomain Matthew R Feulner
Subject Re Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
NntpPostingHost egbsun12drapercom
Organization Draper Laboratory
Lines 18

In article 1993Apr202344271auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 Okay here is what I have so far
 
 Have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon
 set up a habitate and have the humans spend one earth year on the moon Does
 that mean no resupply or  
 
 Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money


My first thought is Ross Perot  After further consideration I think hed
be more likely to try to win itbut come in a disappointing third

Try Bill Gates  Try Sam Waltons kids

Matt

matthew_feulnerqmlinkdrapercom

preprocess doc  From: oreilly@olivia.la.asu.edu (Tom O'Reilly)
Subject: Russian Phobos Mission
Organization: Mars Observer TES Project, ASU, Tempe AZ
Distribution: sci.space
Lines: 11

Yes, the Phobos mission did return some useful data including images of Phobos
itself. The best I've seen had a surface resolution of about 40 meters. By
the way, the new book entitled "Mars" (Kieffer et al, 1992, University of
Arizona Press) has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet.
The chapter is co-authored by V.I. Moroz of the Space Research Institute in
Moscow, and includes details never before published in the West. Don't
know of any ftp sites with images though.

Tom O'Reilly
Department of Geology
Arizona State University

after prepro  From oreillyolivialaasuedu Tom OReilly
Subject Russian Phobos Mission
Organization Mars Observer TES Project ASU Tempe AZ
Distribution scispace
Lines 11

Yes the Phobos mission did return some useful data including images of Phobos
itself The best Ive seen had a surface resolution of about 40 meters By
the way the new book entitled Mars Kieffer et al 1992 University of
Arizona Press has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet
The chapter is coauthored by VI Moroz of the Space Research Institute in
Moscow and includes details never before published in the West Dont
know of any ftp sites with images though

Tom OReilly
Department of Geology
Arizona State University

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:

>>But chimps are almost human...
>Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will?

Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re But chimps are almost human
Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will

Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior

keith

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Ontology (was: Benediktine Metaphysics)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 46

In article <66019@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
>
>>     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.
>
>"Contradictory" is a property of language.  If I correct this to
>
>
>      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
 
No need to correct it, it stands as it is said.
 
 
 
>I will object to definitions as reality.  If you then amend it to
>
>      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>then we've come to something which is plainly false.  Failures in
>description are merely failures in description.
>
 
You miss the point entirely. Things defined by contradictory language
do not exist. Though something existing might be meant, conclusions
drawn from the description are wrong, unless there is the possibility
to find the described, and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of
the described then. Another possibility is to drop the contradictory
part, but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented
and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well.
 
>(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)
>
 
Neither am I. But either things are directly sensed (which includes
some form of modelling, by the way) or they are used in modelling.
Using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of.
Wonder why?
 
We remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed
as contradictory. An important point is that either one manages to
resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer
to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions, or one will fall
in the garbage in garbage out trap.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Ontology was Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 46

In article 66019mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 

     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST

Contradictory is a property of language  If I correct this to


      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

 
No need to correct it it stands as it is said
 
 
 
I will object to definitions as reality  If you then amend it to

      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

then weve come to something which is plainly false  Failures in
description are merely failures in description

 
You miss the point entirely Things defined by contradictory language
do not exist Though something existing might be meant conclusions
drawn from the description are wrong unless there is the possibility
to find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of
the described then Another possibility is to drop the contradictory
part but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented
and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well
 
Im not an objectivist remember

 
Neither am I But either things are directly sensed which includes
some form of modelling by the way or they are used in modelling
Using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of
Wonder why
 
We remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed
as contradictory An important point is that either one manages to
resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer
to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions or one will fall
in the garbage in garbage out trap
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines: 14

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.

Find an encyclopedia. Volume H. Now look up Hitler, Adolf. He had
many more people than just Germans enamoured with him.

P.
-- 
 moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l  m o l o n e y  Come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin  and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - GeoffM
 brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza 

after prepro  From pmoloneymathstcdie Paul Moloney
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines 14

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy

Find an encyclopedia Volume H Now look up Hitler Adolf He had
many more people than just Germans enamoured with him

P
 
 moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l  m o l o n e y  Come let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin  and apply the wire brush of enlightenment  GeoffM
 brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza 

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 76


Chris Faehl writes:

> >Many atheists do not mock the concept of a god, they are shocked that
> >so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually
> >believe in a god.  You accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy,
> >again without evidence.
>
>> Rule *2:  Condescending to the population at large (i.e., theists) will >not
>> win many people to your faith anytime soon.  It only ruins your credibility.

>Fallacy #1: Atheism is a faith. Lo! I hear the FAQ beckoning once again...
>[wonderful Rule #3 deleted - you're correct, you didn't say anything >about
>a conspiracy]

Correction: _hard_ atheism is a faith.

>> Rule #4:  Don't mix apples with oranges.  How can you say that the
>> extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin?  Khan conquered people
>> unsympathetic to his cause. That was atrocious. But Stalin killed millions of
>> his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!!  How can
>> anyone be worse than that?

>I will not explain this to you again: Stalin did nothing in the name of
>atheism. Whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant.

Get a grip, man.  The Stalin example was brought up not as an
indictment of atheism, but merely as another example of how people will
kill others under any name that's fit for the occasion.

>> Rule #6:  If you rely on evidence, state it.  We're waiting.

>As opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper...
>Atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else. It is the burden of
>dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their 'evidence'. Which 'we'
>might you be referring to, and how long are you going to wait?

So hard atheism has nothing to prove?  Then how does it justify that
God does not exist?  I know, there's the FAQ, etc.  But guess what -- if
those justifications were so compelling why aren't people flocking to
_hard_ atheism?  They're not, and they won't.  I for one will discourage
people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable
statements on hard atheism.

Second, what makes you think I'm defending any given religion?  I'm merely
recognizing hard atheism for what it is, a faith.

And yes, by "we" I am referring to every reader of the post.  Where is the
evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon?
>
>> Oh yes, though I'm not a theist, I can say safely that *by definition* many
>> theists are not arrogant, since they boast about something _outside_
>> themselves, namely, a god or gods.  So in principle it's hard to see how
>> theists are necessarily arrogant.

>Because they say, "Such-and-such is absolutely unalterably True, because
         ^^^^
>my dogma says it is True." I am not prepared to issue blanket statements
>indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists.

Bzzt!  By virtue of your innocent little pronoun, "they", you've just issued
a blanket statement.  At least I will apologize by qualifying my original
statement with "hard atheist" in place of atheist.  Would you call John the
Baptist arrogant, who boasted of one greater than he?  That's what many
Christians do today.  How is that _in itself_ arrogant?
>
>> I'm not worthy!
>Only seriously misinformed.
With your sophisticated put-down of "they", the theists, _your_ serious
misinformation shines through.

--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 76


Chris Faehl writes

 Many atheists do not mock the concept of a god they are shocked that
 so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually
 believe in a god  You accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy
 again without evidence

 Rule 2  Condescending to the population at large ie theists will not
 win many people to your faith anytime soon  It only ruins your credibility

Fallacy 1 Atheism is a faith Lo I hear the FAQ beckoning once again
[wonderful Rule 3 deleted  youre correct you didnt say anything about
a conspiracy]

Correction _hard_ atheism is a faith

 Rule 4  Dont mix apples with oranges  How can you say that the
 extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin  Khan conquered people
 unsympathetic to his cause That was atrocious But Stalin killed millions of
 his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state  How can
 anyone be worse than that

I will not explain this to you again Stalin did nothing in the name of
atheism Whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant

Get a grip man  The Stalin example was brought up not as an
indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will
kill others under any name thats fit for the occasion

 Rule 6  If you rely on evidence state it  Were waiting

As opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper
Atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else It is the burden of
dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their evidence Which we
might you be referring to and how long are you going to wait

So hard atheism has nothing to prove  Then how does it justify that
God does not exist  I know theres the FAQ etc  But guess what  if
those justifications were so compelling why arent people flocking to
_hard_ atheism  Theyre not and they wont  I for one will discourage
people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable
statements on hard atheism

Second what makes you think Im defending any given religion  Im merely
recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith

And yes by we I am referring to every reader of the post  Where is the
evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon

 Oh yes though Im not a theist I can say safely that by definition many
 theists are not arrogant since they boast about something _outside_
 themselves namely a god or gods  So in principle its hard to see how
 theists are necessarily arrogant

Because they say Suchandsuch is absolutely unalterably True because
         ^^^^
my dogma says it is True I am not prepared to issue blanket statements
indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists

Bzzt  By virtue of your innocent little pronoun they youve just issued
a blanket statement  At least I will apologize by qualifying my original
statement with hard atheist in place of atheist  Would you call John the
Baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he  Thats what many
Christians do today  How is that _in itself_ arrogant

 Im not worthy
Only seriously misinformed
With your sophisticated putdown of they the theists _your_ serious
misinformation shines through


Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
Organization: Me, at The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: sci
Lines: 29

In article <15APR199320340428@stdvax> abdkw@stdvax (David Ward) writes:
>In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>>There has been something bothering me while watching
>>NASA Select for a while.  Well, I should'nt say
>>bothering, maybe wondering would be better.  When
>>they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
>>exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
>>"Clear caution & warning memory.  Verify no unexpected
>>errors. ...".  I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>>be.  Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
>
>
>In pure speculation, I would guess cautions based on hazardous
>pre-launch ops would qualify.  Something like "Caution:  SRBs
>have just been armed."  

Also in pure speculation:

Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered.
   "Yes that is an error, but we already knew about it"

Any problem where they decided a backup would handle it.

Any problem in an area that was not criticality 1,2,3..., that is, any
   problem in a system they decided they could do without.

I'd be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is.

tom

after prepro  From tombakerworldstdcom Tom A Baker
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
Organization Me at The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Distribution sci
Lines 29

In article 15APR199320340428stdvax abdkwstdvax David Ward writes
In article  ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while  Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better  When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution  warning memory  Verify no unexpected
errors   I am wondering what an expected error might
be  Sorry if this is a really dumb question but


In pure speculation I would guess cautions based on hazardous
prelaunch ops would qualify  Something like Caution  SRBs
have just been armed  

Also in pure speculation

Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered
   Yes that is an error but we already knew about it

Any problem where they decided a backup would handle it

Any problem in an area that was not criticality 123 that is any
   problem in a system they decided they could do without

Id be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is

tom

preprocess doc  From: howard@sharps.astro.wisc.edu (Greg Howard)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Astronomy Department
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: uwast.astro.wisc.edu


Actually, the "ether" stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare,
qualitative corruption of general relativity.  nothing to do with
the old-fashioned, ether, though.  maybe somebody could loan him
a GR text at a low level.

didn't get much further than that, tho.... whew.


greg

after prepro  From howardsharpsastrowiscedu Greg Howard
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization University of Wisconsin  Astronomy Department
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost uwastastrowiscedu


Actually the ether stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare
qualitative corruption of general relativity  nothing to do with
the oldfashioned ether though  maybe somebody could loan him
a GR text at a low level

didnt get much further than that tho whew


greg

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 16

on Date: 01 Apr 93 18:03:12 GMT, Ralph Buttigieg <ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au>
writes:
/Why can't the government just be a tennant? Private commercial concerns
/could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government
/financed researchers wanting to use it.

I believe that this was the thought behind the Industrial Space Facility.  I
don't remember all the details, but I think Space Services (?) wanted NASA to 
sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but 
NASA didn't like the deal.  (I'm sure I'll hear about it if I'm wrong!)

Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz     MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com    w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
   "Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 16

on Date 01 Apr 93 180312 GMT Ralph Buttigieg 
writes
Why cant the government just be a tennant Private commercial concerns
could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government
financed researchers wanting to use it

I believe that this was the thought behind the Industrial Space Facility  I
dont remember all the details but I think Space Services  wanted NASA to 
sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but 
NASA didnt like the deal  Im sure Ill hear about it if Im wrong

Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz     MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom    w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
   Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901


preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Nasa (dis)incentives
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 23

[questions and issues WRT congress raised and discussed}

Dennis Replies;
>Now black when it is white is just white. Except that when black is called
>white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is
>justified to call black, white.  It is also apparant that when white is called
>black, just the opposite occurs. Now white is a color, but when white is
>called black, it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum.
...
>It is a given however that NASA nor the military, whose competence in
>differentating black from white is well known (remember the black and
>white paint on the Saturn V rocket?) That nothing will occur here either.
>When black and white are used by congress, who cares nothing for results,
>just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the black/white
>controversy....

Dennis, why must you always see things in black and white terms? :-)

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Nasa disincentives
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 23

[questions and issues WRT congress raised and discussed

Dennis Replies
Now black when it is white is just white Except that when black is called
white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is
justified to call black white  It is also apparant that when white is called
black just the opposite occurs Now white is a color but when white is
called black it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum

It is a given however that NASA nor the military whose competence in
differentating black from white is well known remember the black and
white paint on the Saturn V rocket That nothing will occur here either
When black and white are used by congress who cares nothing for results
just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the blackwhite
controversy

Dennis why must you always see things in black and white terms 

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: University of Rochester

In article <844@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:

>	Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria?  I figure
> that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
> Any comments?

They exist.  Even photosynthetic varieties.  Not economical at this
time, though.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

after prepro  From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization University of Rochester

In article 844rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes

	Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria  I figure
 that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
 Any comments

They exist  Even photosynthetic varieties  Not economical at this
time though

	Paul F Dietz
	dietzcsrochesteredu

preprocess doc  From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 33

mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:

>Nanci Ann Miller writes:

>>My favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is
>>that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
>>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and
>>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right,
>>literally.  If not, then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
>>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
>>originally inspired by God?

>The "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak.  Comparison of the
>current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
>has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia.  This
>shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
>are likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
>-- 
Do you honestly hold to that tripe Charley? For a start there are enough
current versions of the Bible to make comparisons to show that what you write
above is utter garbage. Witness JW, Mormon, Catholic, Anglican, and Greek
Orthodox Bibles. But to really convince you I'd have to take you to a good
old library. In our local library we had a 1804 King James which I compared
to a brand new, hot of God's tongue Good News Bible. Genesis was almost
unrecognisable, many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been
edited from the Good News Bible. In fact the God of Good News was a much
more congenial fellow I must say. 

If you like I'll get the 1804 King James out again and actually give you
some quotes. At least the headings haven't changed much.

Jeff.


after prepro  From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 33

mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes

Nanci Ann Miller writes

My favorite reply to the you are being too literalminded complaint is
that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and
scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right
literally  If not then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
originally inspired by God

The corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak  Comparison of the
current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia  This
shouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
are likely to makes some pains to make good copies
 
Do you honestly hold to that tripe Charley For a start there are enough
current versions of the Bible to make comparisons to show that what you write
above is utter garbage Witness JW Mormon Catholic Anglican and Greek
Orthodox Bibles But to really convince you Id have to take you to a good
old library In our local library we had a 1804 King James which I compared
to a brand new hot of Gods tongue Good News Bible Genesis was almost
unrecognisable many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been
edited from the Good News Bible In fact the God of Good News was a much
more congenial fellow I must say 

If you like Ill get the 1804 King James out again and actually give you
some quotes At least the headings havent changed much

Jeff


preprocess doc  From: davidk@welch.jhu.edu (David "Go-Go" Kitaguchi)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Nntp-Posting-Host: uss1.welch.jhu.edu
Reply-To: davidk@welch.jhu.edu
Organization: Welch Medical Library
Lines: 56


:P>My atheism is incidental, and the question of "God" is trivial.
:P
:P>But........
:P
:P>It matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me,
:P>when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
:P>fact in school, when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
:P>from "God", when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
:P>shouldn't be considered a citizen and couldn't be patriotic because "after
:P>all this is one nation under God", when the fundies try to take over the
:P>party that may well provide the next President of The United States of
:P>America so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country,
:P>et cetera..........
:P
:P>That's why I subscribe to alt.atheism.
:P
:P>And in the middle of this, people who aren't mind readers pop up on
:P>alt.atheism to tell me what I do or don't believe, or to concoct some
:P>straw-man reason why I don't share their particular belief.
:P
:P>You think I should just accept this?
:P
:P>This isn't particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians. I have been
:P>told on alt.atheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
:P>islam, and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed. But most of
:P>the religious nuts who post on alt.atheism are some kind of militant
:P>christian who can't accept that others don't share their beliefs. This
:P>kind of stuff should be kept on talk.religion.misc, where it belongs.
:P
:P>ATHEISM ISN'T A BELIEF, IT'S THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS.
:P>                                 -------
:P
:P>Do you have a problem with this?
:P
:P>>
:P>>Bill
:PFirst, I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief.  It is a beilief
:Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith.  An atheist says there are no gods.  This cannot be proven. therefore you are excepting this on
:Pfaith alone.  That is a belief.  Secondly, you complain so much about how the 
:Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you, but you don't
:Pmention anything about how the atheists, such as; Madamme Murry O'hare(founder
:Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas), and Robert Sherman(from the       Chicago area) have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to  get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas,  forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it (like Sherman has done), or trying to get the slogan "In God We Trust" off of the American currency? You also talk about creation "myths" as if they are in fact myths and tha
:P
:P
:P 
:Phave concrete evidece of this.  You probably
:Pdon't and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity.  If this is not so please do show me why it isn't.  
:PMark Covalt 

The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin.  As soon as christians become the 
good non ego-centric Buddhists they are supposed to be, then I might listen.

My opinion, I speak not for my place of employment... But I should...
"Christ was over-rated, and will the ATF follow Koresh (the current Christ) through
his ascention to heaven?"

after prepro  From davidkwelchjhuedu David GoGo Kitaguchi
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
NntpPostingHost uss1welchjhuedu
ReplyTo davidkwelchjhuedu
Organization Welch Medical Library
Lines 56


PMy atheism is incidental and the question of God is trivial
P
PBut
P
PIt matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me
Pwhen they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
Pfact in school when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
Pfrom God when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
Pshouldnt be considered a citizen and couldnt be patriotic because after
Pall this is one nation under God when the fundies try to take over the
Pparty that may well provide the next President of The United States of
PAmerica so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country
Pet cetera
P
PThats why I subscribe to altatheism
P
PAnd in the middle of this people who arent mind readers pop up on
Paltatheism to tell me what I do or dont believe or to concoct some
Pstrawman reason why I dont share their particular belief
P
PYou think I should just accept this
P
PThis isnt particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians I have been
Ptold on altatheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
Pislam and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed But most of
Pthe religious nuts who post on altatheism are some kind of militant
Pchristian who cant accept that others dont share their beliefs This
Pkind of stuff should be kept on talkreligionmisc where it belongs
P
PATHEISM ISNT A BELIEF ITS THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS
P                                 
P
PDo you have a problem with this
P
P
PBill
PFirst I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief  It is a beilief
Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith  An atheist says there are no gods  This cannot be proven therefore you are excepting this on
Pfaith alone  That is a belief  Secondly you complain so much about how the 
Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you but you dont
Pmention anything about how the atheists such as Madamme Murry Oharefounder
Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas and Robert Shermanfrom the       Chicago area have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to  get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas  forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it like Sherman has done or trying to get the slogan In God We Trust off of the American currency You also talk about creation myths as if they are in fact myths and tha
P
P
P 
Phave concrete evidece of this  You probably
Pdont and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity  If this is not so please do show me why it isnt  
PMark Covalt 

The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin  As soon as christians become the 
good non egocentric Buddhists they are supposed to be then I might listen

My opinion I speak not for my place of employment But I should
Christ was overrated and will the ATF follow Koresh the current Christ through
his ascention to heaven

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 74
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
>the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong.

If you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what
purpose in mind.  Then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal.

>>>I don't think you've show the existence of *any* objective moral system.
>>They exist, but in practice, they are difficult to perfectly emulate.
>>I mean, you understand the concept of an objective system, right?
>I thought you were explaining it to us.   I certainly don't
>understand what you are explaining.

In an objective system, there are known goals.  Then, actions are judged
as either being compatible with these goals, or not.  Simple.  The problem
with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ.  That is,
the goals of each society are different.

Note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one.

>>The concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are
>>"right" or "wrong," and this depends on the moral system.  But, if
>>we have an objective system, then someone can be deemed innocent or
>>not quite easily by an omniscient person.  Anyway, I think I cleared
>>up the recursive definition of "murder," because no one is complaining
>>about it.
>I don't think it solves anything to speculate where we would be
>if we *did* have an objective moral system.  The question is
>still whether you can even say what one is.

I've said it many, many times.

>And for what it's worth, I don't think you cleared up *anything*
>concerning murder.

Which part do you have a problem with?

>>>What do you mean by "harmed?"  Is it harm if you have to spend
>>>your existence metabolising food for another species?
>>Oh, most moral systems would be considered only within a species.  It
>>is okay for us to enslave other animals, right?  But not humans...
>>Of course, ideally, perhaps we wouldn't even have to bother any other
>>animals...
>One the first point, it's wrong to enslave humans according to my
>persoanl moral system.  On the second point, I'm a vegetarian.

But, we can enslave the animals, right?  But just not kill them?  Or
are you a vegetarian for health reasons?

>So, are you a vegetarian?

No.  I fail to see how my *personal* views are relevant, anyway.

>Is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system?

Of course not.  It seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species
for food.  It might be nice, though, if the other animals were not made
to suffer.  For instance, a cow in a field lives out its life just about
the same way it would in the wild.  They seem happy enough.  However,
the veal youngsters aren't treated very well.

>How about an "objective" moral system?

I don't know.  What is the goal of this particular system?  There is no
inherent system.

>How about a "natural" moral system.

Nope.  Again, it seems okay to kill other species for food.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong

If you were omniscient youd know who exactly did what and with what
purpose in mind  Then with a particular goal in mind you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal

I dont think youve show the existence of any objective moral system
They exist but in practice they are difficult to perfectly emulate
I mean you understand the concept of an objective system right
I thought you were explaining it to us   I certainly dont
understand what you are explaining

In an objective system there are known goals  Then actions are judged
as either being compatible with these goals or not  Simple  The problem
with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ  That is
the goals of each society are different

Note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one

The concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are
right or wrong and this depends on the moral system  But if
we have an objective system then someone can be deemed innocent or
not quite easily by an omniscient person  Anyway I think I cleared
up the recursive definition of murder because no one is complaining
about it
I dont think it solves anything to speculate where we would be
if we did have an objective moral system  The question is
still whether you can even say what one is

Ive said it many many times

And for what its worth I dont think you cleared up anything
concerning murder

Which part do you have a problem with

What do you mean by harmed  Is it harm if you have to spend
your existence metabolising food for another species
Oh most moral systems would be considered only within a species  It
is okay for us to enslave other animals right  But not humans
Of course ideally perhaps we wouldnt even have to bother any other
animals
One the first point its wrong to enslave humans according to my
persoanl moral system  On the second point Im a vegetarian

But we can enslave the animals right  But just not kill them  Or
are you a vegetarian for health reasons

So are you a vegetarian

No  I fail to see how my personal views are relevant anyway

Is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system

Of course not  It seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species
for food  It might be nice though if the other animals were not made
to suffer  For instance a cow in a field lives out its life just about
the same way it would in the wild  They seem happy enough  However
the veal youngsters arent treated very well

How about an objective moral system

I dont know  What is the goal of this particular system  There is no
inherent system

How about a natural moral system

Nope  Again it seems okay to kill other species for food

keith

preprocess doc  From: landis@stsci.edu (Robert Landis,S202,,)
Subject: Re: Soviet Space Book
Reply-To: landis@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Lines: 9

What in blazes is going on with Wayne Matson and gang
down in Alabama?  I also heard an unconfirmed rumor that
Aerospace Ambassadors have disappeared.  Can anyone else
confirm??

++Rob Landis
   STScI, Baltimore, MD



after prepro  From landisstsciedu Robert LandisS202
Subject Re Soviet Space Book
ReplyTo landisstsciedu
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute Baltimore MD
Lines 9

What in blazes is going on with Wayne Matson and gang
down in Alabama  I also heard an unconfirmed rumor that
Aerospace Ambassadors have disappeared  Can anyone else
confirm

Rob Landis
   STScI Baltimore MD



preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: End of the Space Age?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



Oddly, enough,  The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight.  I would call it the granite years,
reflecting the primitive nature of it.  It was  romantic,
swashbuckling daredevils,  "those daring young men in their flying
machines".  But in reality, it sucked.  Death was a highly likely
occurence,  and  the environment blew.  Ever see the early navy
pressure suits,  they were modified  diving suits.  You were ready to
star in "plan 9 from outer space".   Radios  and Nav AIds were
a joke,  and engines ran on castor oil.  They  picked and called aviators
"men with iron stomachs",  and it wasn't due to vertigo.

Oddly enough, now we are in the golden age of flight.  I can hop the
shuttle to NY for $90 bucks,  now that's golden.

Mercury gemini, and apollo were romantic,  but let's be honest.
Peeing in bags,  having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime
you needed a bowel movement.  Living for days inside a VW Bug.
Romantic,  but not commercial.   The DC-X  points out a most likely
new golden age.  An age where  fat cigar smoking business men in
loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls
and used space ship lots.

hhhmmmmm,  maybe i'll  retract that golden age bit.   Maybe it was
better in the old days.  Of course, then we'll have  wally schirra
telling his great grand children, "In my day,  we walked on the moon.
Every day.  Miles.  no buses.  you kids got it soft".

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re End of the Space Age
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



Oddly enough  The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight  I would call it the granite years
reflecting the primitive nature of it  It was  romantic
swashbuckling daredevils  those daring young men in their flying
machines  But in reality it sucked  Death was a highly likely
occurence  and  the environment blew  Ever see the early navy
pressure suits  they were modified  diving suits  You were ready to
star in plan 9 from outer space   Radios  and Nav AIds were
a joke  and engines ran on castor oil  They  picked and called aviators
men with iron stomachs  and it wasnt due to vertigo

Oddly enough now we are in the golden age of flight  I can hop the
shuttle to NY for 90 bucks  now thats golden

Mercury gemini and apollo were romantic  but lets be honest
Peeing in bags  having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime
you needed a bowel movement  Living for days inside a VW Bug
Romantic  but not commercial   The DCX  points out a most likely
new golden age  An age where  fat cigar smoking business men in
loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls
and used space ship lots

hhhmmmmm  maybe ill  retract that golden age bit   Maybe it was
better in the old days  Of course then well have  wally schirra
telling his great grand children In my day  we walked on the moon
Every day  Miles  no buses  you kids got it soft

pat

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: HST, Pluto, Uranus
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope:

     o The Faint Object Spectrograph (FOS) was used to make ultraviolet
       observations of both the planet Pluto, and its moon Charon. The
       peakups were successful. The observations were executed as
       scheduled, and no problems were reported.

     o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
       Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus. These
       observations will help in our understanding of the planet's
       atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes. This event occurred
       close to the last quarter moon, and special arrangements had to be
       made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations.
       The observations are currently being reviewed, and all the
       observations looked okay.

     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords HST Pluto Uranus
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope

     o The Faint Object Spectrograph FOS was used to make ultraviolet
       observations of both the planet Pluto and its moon Charon The
       peakups were successful The observations were executed as
       scheduled and no problems were reported

     o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
       Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus These
       observations will help in our understanding of the planets
       atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes This event occurred
       close to the last quarter moon and special arrangements had to be
       made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations
       The observations are currently being reviewed and all the
       observations looked okay

     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:

>I somewhat agree with u.  However, what it comes to (theist) religion, 
>it's a different matter.  That's because religion is like a drug, once u
>use it, it's very difficult to get out of it.  That's because in
>order to experience a religion, u necessarily have to have blind faith,
>and once u have the blind faith, it's very diffcult for you to reason
>yourself back to atheism again.
>Therefore, it's unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to
>judge it.  It's like asking people to "try dying to find out what
>death is like".

Well now, we can't judge death until we are dead right?  So, why should
we judge religion without having experienced it?  People have said that
religion is bad by any account, and that it is in no way useful, etc.,
but I don't totally agree with this.  Of course, we cannot really say
how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion,
but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it.

So basically, we can not judge whether religion is the right route for
a given individual, or even for a general population.  We can say that
it is not best for us personally (at least, you can choose not to use
religion--might be hard to try to find out its benefits, as you state
above).

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider  Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng  dan writes

I somewhat agree with u  However what it comes to theist religion 
its a different matter  Thats because religion is like a drug once u
use it its very difficult to get out of it  Thats because in
order to experience a religion u necessarily have to have blind faith
and once u have the blind faith its very diffcult for you to reason
yourself back to atheism again
Therefore its unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to
judge it  Its like asking people to try dying to find out what
death is like

Well now we cant judge death until we are dead right  So why should
we judge religion without having experienced it  People have said that
religion is bad by any account and that it is in no way useful etc
but I dont totally agree with this  Of course we cannot really say
how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion
but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it

So basically we can not judge whether religion is the right route for
a given individual or even for a general population  We can say that
it is not best for us personally at least you can choose not to use
religionmight be hard to try to find out its benefits as you state
above

keith

preprocess doc  From: daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration.  May 7  Crystal City
Organization: NSPC
Distribution: na
Lines: 107

In article <1quule$5re@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|> 
|> AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
|> May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
|> 
|> Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????
|> 
|> Anyone want to go?
|> 
|> pat

Here are some selected excerpts of the invitation/registration form they
sent me. Retyped without permission, all typo's are mine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Low-Cost Lunar Access: A one-day conference to explore the means and 
benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program.

Friday, May 7, 1993
Hyatt Regency - Crystal City Hotel
Arlington, VA

ABOUT THE CONFERENCE
The Low-Cost Lunar Access conference will be a forum for the exchange of
ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program.
Inherent in such low-cost programs is the principle that they be 
implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time
frame.

[more deleted]

CONFERENCE PROGRAM (Preliminary)

In the Washington Room:

  9:00 - 9:10 a.m.     Opening Remarks
    Dr. Alan M. Lovelace

  9:10 - 9:30 a.m.     Keynote Address
    Mr. Brian Dailey

  9:30 - 10:00 a.m.    U.S. Policy Outlook
    John Pike, American Federation of Scientists

  A discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new low-cost
  lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space
  program is taking.

  10:00 - 12:00 noon   Morning Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on architectures, systems, and operational concepts.
  Emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant
  advancements beyond Apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the
  present era of severely constrained budgets


In the Potomac Room

  12:00 - 1:30 p.m.    Lunch
    Guest Speaker: Mr. John W. Young,
    NASA Special Assistant and former astronaut

In the Washington Room

  1:30 - 2:00 p.m.     International Policy Outlook
    Ian Pryke (invited)
    ESA, Washington Office

  The prevailing situation with respect to international space 
  commitments, with insights into preconditions for European 
  entry into new agreements, as would be required for a cooperative
  lunar program.

  2:00 - 3:30 p.m.     Afternoon Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on scientific objectives, benefits, and applications.
  Emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value
  of a lunar program and its timeliness.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a registration form and the fee is US$75.00. The mail address
is 

     American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
     Dept. No. 0018
     Washington, DC 20073-0018

and the FAX No. is: 

     (202) 646-7508

or it says you can register on-site during the AIAA annual meeting 
and on Friday morning, May 7, from 7:30-10:30


Sounds interesting. Too bad I can't go.

|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
|                                 * _!!!!_ *                         |
| Steven Davis                   * /  \   \ *                        |
| daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov  *  (<o><o>)  *                       |  
|                               *  \>_db_</  *  McDonnell Douglas    |
|  - I don't represent           *   |vv|   *   Space Systems Company| 
|    anybody but myself. -        *  (__)  *    Houston Division     |
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|

after prepro  From davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration  May 7  Crystal City
Organization NSPC
Distribution na
Lines 107

In article 1quule5reaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
 
 AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
 May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
 
 Does anyone know more about this  How much to attend
 
 Anyone want to go
 
 pat

Here are some selected excerpts of the invitationregistration form they
sent me Retyped without permission all typos are mine


LowCost Lunar Access A oneday conference to explore the means and 
benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program

Friday May 7 1993
Hyatt Regency  Crystal City Hotel
Arlington VA

ABOUT THE CONFERENCE
The LowCost Lunar Access conference will be a forum for the exchange of
ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program
Inherent in such lowcost programs is the principle that they be 
implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time
frame

[more deleted]

CONFERENCE PROGRAM Preliminary

In the Washington Room

  900  910 am     Opening Remarks
    Dr Alan M Lovelace

  910  930 am     Keynote Address
    Mr Brian Dailey

  930  1000 am    US Policy Outlook
    John Pike American Federation of Scientists

  A discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new lowcost
  lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space
  program is taking

  1000  1200 noon   Morning Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on architectures systems and operational concepts
  Emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant
  advancements beyond Apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the
  present era of severely constrained budgets


In the Potomac Room

  1200  130 pm    Lunch
    Guest Speaker Mr John W Young
    NASA Special Assistant and former astronaut

In the Washington Room

  130  200 pm     International Policy Outlook
    Ian Pryke invited
    ESA Washington Office

  The prevailing situation with respect to international space 
  commitments with insights into preconditions for European 
  entry into new agreements as would be required for a cooperative
  lunar program

  200  330 pm     Afternoon Plenary Sessions

  Presentations on scientific objectives benefits and applications
  Emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value
  of a lunar program and its timeliness




There is a registration form and the fee is US7500 The mail address
is 

     American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
     Dept No 0018
     Washington DC 200730018

and the FAX No is 

     202 6467508

or it says you can register onsite during the AIAA annual meeting 
and on Friday morning May 7 from 7301030


Sounds interesting Too bad I cant go

  
                                  __                          
 Steven Davis                      \   \                         
 davisssweetpeajscnasagov                               
                                 \_db_    McDonnell Douglas    
   I dont represent              vv      Space Systems Company 
    anybody but myself           __      Houston Division     
  

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 67

In article <1pq47tINN8lp@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>
>I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
>does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement
>that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't
>know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
>(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than saying
>I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the position, even
>after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires faith.
>
 
No it in the way it is usually used. In my view, you are saying here that
driving a car requires faith that the car drives.
 
For me it is a conclusion, and I have no more faith in it than I have in the
premises and the argument used.
 
 
>But first let me say the following.
>We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
>"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
>To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
>being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
>exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
>to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
>I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
>being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
>statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
>in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
>'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
>I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
>God".
>
 
No, that's a word game. The term god is used in a different way usually.
When you use a different definition it is your thing, but until it is
commonly accepted you would have to say the way I define god is ... and
that does not exist, it is existence itself, so I say it does not exist.
 
Interestingly, there are those who say that "existence exists" is one of
the indubitable statements possible.
 
Further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are implying
more with it, in which case your definition and your argument so far
are incomplete, making it a fallacy.
 
 
(Deletion)
>One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
>that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
>"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
>you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
>are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief.
(Deletion)
 
Where does that follow? Aren't observations based on the assumption
that something exists?
 
And wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
"god is" is meaningful. If not, I would reject that concept anyway.
 
So, where is your evidence for that "god is" is meaningful at some level?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 67

In article 1pq47tINN8lpsenatorbedfellowMITEDU
bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton writes
 
Deletion

I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
does rest upon faith  that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement
that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont
know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than saying
I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the position even
after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires faith

 
No it in the way it is usually used In my view you are saying here that
driving a car requires faith that the car drives
 
For me it is a conclusion and I have no more faith in it than I have in the
premises and the argument used
 
 
But first let me say the following
We might have a language problem here  in regards to faith and
existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
being  God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
to debate the so called existence of God  and that is not what
Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
statement  but we obviously mean two different things by it However
in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
usual sense  and this is the sense that I think you are using it
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
God

 
No thats a word game The term god is used in a different way usually
When you use a different definition it is your thing but until it is
commonly accepted you would have to say the way I define god is  and
that does not exist it is existence itself so I say it does not exist
 
Interestingly there are those who say that existence exists is one of
the indubitable statements possible
 
Further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying
more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far
are incomplete making it a fallacy
 
 
Deletion
One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
you refering to There are NO observations  pro or con  that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief
Deletion
 
Where does that follow Arent observations based on the assumption
that something exists
 
And wouldnt you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
god is is meaningful If not I would reject that concept anyway
 
So where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
Lines: 52
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 52

In article <1993Apr14.190904.21222@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
>Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 19:09:04 GMT
>In article <1993Apr14.131548.15938@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>In <madhausC5CKIp.21H@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>>
>>>Mark, how much do you *REALLY* know about vegetarian diets?
>>>The problem is not "some" B-vitamins, it's balancing proteins.  
>>>There is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from non-animal
>>>products, and this is only of concern to VEGANS, who eat no
>>>meat, dairy, or eggs.  I believe it is B12, and it is the only
>>>problem.  Supplements are available for vegans; yes, the B12
>>>does come from animal by-products.  If you are on an ovo-lacto
>>>vegetarian diet (eat dairy and eggs) this is not an issue.
>
>I didn't see the original posting, but...
>Yes, I do know about vegetarian diets, considering that several of my
>close friends are devout vegetarians, and have to take vitamin supplements.
>B12 was one of the ones I was thinking of, it has been a long time since
>I read the article I once saw talking about the special dietary needs
>of vegetarians so I didn't quote full numbers.  (Considering how nice
>this place is. ;)
>
>>B12 can also come from whole-grain rice, I understand.  Some brands here
>>in Australia (and other places too, I'm sure) get the B12 in the B12
>>tablets from whole-grain rice.
>
>Are you sure those aren't an enriched type?  I know it is basically
>rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need, but I hadn't heard
>of any rice having B12.  
>
>>Just thought I'd contribute on a different issue from the norm :)
>
>You should have contributed to the programming thread earlier. :)
>
>> Fred Rice
>> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   
>
>M^2
>
If one is a vegan (a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i.e eggs, 
milk, cheese, etc., after about 3 years of a vegan diet, you need to start 
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals.) Acutally our 
bodies make B12, I think, but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3 
years.  
Lacto-oveo vegetarians, like myself, still get B12 through milk products 
and eggs, so we don't need supplements.
And If anyone knows more, PLEASE post it.  I'm nearly contridicting myself 
with the mish-mash of knowledge I've gleaned.

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Lines 52
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 52

In article 1993Apr1419090421222daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Date Wed 14 Apr 1993 190904 GMT
In article 1993Apr1413154815938monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In  madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann writes

Mark how much do you REALLY know about vegetarian diets
The problem is not some Bvitamins its balancing proteins  
There is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from nonanimal
products and this is only of concern to VEGANS who eat no
meat dairy or eggs  I believe it is B12 and it is the only
problem  Supplements are available for vegans yes the B12
does come from animal byproducts  If you are on an ovolacto
vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this is not an issue

I didnt see the original posting but
Yes I do know about vegetarian diets considering that several of my
close friends are devout vegetarians and have to take vitamin supplements
B12 was one of the ones I was thinking of it has been a long time since
I read the article I once saw talking about the special dietary needs
of vegetarians so I didnt quote full numbers  Considering how nice
this place is 

B12 can also come from wholegrain rice I understand  Some brands here
in Australia and other places too Im sure get the B12 in the B12
tablets from wholegrain rice

Are you sure those arent an enriched type  I know it is basically
rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need but I hadnt heard
of any rice having B12  

Just thought Id contribute on a different issue from the norm 

You should have contributed to the programming thread earlier 

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

M^2

If one is a vegan a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at ie eggs 
milk cheese etc after about 3 years of a vegan diet you need to start 
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals Acutally our 
bodies make B12 I think but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3 
years  
Lactooveo vegetarians like myself still get B12 through milk products 
and eggs so we dont need supplements
And If anyone knows more PLEASE post it  Im nearly contridicting myself 
with the mishmash of knowledge Ive gleaned

Tammy

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 20

In article <C5HCBo.Joy@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

>The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike.  It can
>actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than
>from the ground.  

But with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to 
reach more orbits than from the ground.

Also remember, that the presence of a repair/supply facility adds value
to the space around it. If you can put your satellite in an orbit where it
can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain
benefit from economies of scale.

  Allen
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 20

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike  It can
actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than
from the ground  

But with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to 
reach more orbits than from the ground

Also remember that the presence of a repairsupply facility adds value
to the space around it If you can put your satellite in an orbit where it
can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain
benefit from economies of scale

  Allen
 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Is Keith as ignorant as he seems?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

mam@mouse.cmhnet.org (Mike McAngus) writes:

>>>No, everything wouldn't be OK, but it would be a start.
>>Now wait, if the religious organizations were no longer tax-exempt, what
>>other beef could you have?  They would then have as much right to lobby
>>as would any other group.
>You asked "would everything be okay".  I answered no.  Everything 
>encompasses more than just the tax-exempt status of religious 
>organizations.

Well, if everything wouldn't be okay, then tell us what it is that
wouldn't be okay.   That is, if religions were no longer tax-exempt, then
what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to
influence politics?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Is Keith as ignorant as he seems
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

mammousecmhnetorg Mike McAngus writes

No everything wouldnt be OK but it would be a start
Now wait if the religious organizations were no longer taxexempt what
other beef could you have  They would then have as much right to lobby
as would any other group
You asked would everything be okay  I answered no  Everything 
encompasses more than just the taxexempt status of religious 
organizations

Well if everything wouldnt be okay then tell us what it is that
wouldnt be okay   That is if religions were no longer taxexempt then
what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to
influence politics

keith

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Article-I.D.: srl03.pgf.734063192
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 22

shag@aero.org (Rob Unverzagt) writes:

>In article <5APR199318045045@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>> According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>> temporarily in orbit around Jupiter.  The comet had apparently made a
>> close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>> comet.  Attempts to determine the comet's orbit has been complicated by
>> the near impossibility of measuring the comet's center of mass.
>>

>Am I missing something -- what does knowing the comet's center
>of mass do for you in orbit determination?

>Shag

I'm not sure, but it almost sounds like they can't figure out where the 
_nucleus_ is within the coma. If they're off by a couple hundred
miles, well, you can imagine the rest...

--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man

after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
ArticleID srl03pgf734063192
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 22

shagaeroorg Rob Unverzagt writes

In article 5APR199318045045kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
 temporarily in orbit around Jupiter  The comet had apparently made a
 close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
 comet  Attempts to determine the comets orbit has been complicated by
 the near impossibility of measuring the comets center of mass


Am I missing something  what does knowing the comets center
of mass do for you in orbit determination

Shag

Im not sure but it almost sounds like they cant figure out where the 
_nucleus_ is within the coma If theyre off by a couple hundred
miles well you can imagine the rest


Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man

preprocess doc  From: ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat)
Subject: Shuttle Launch Question
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 16

There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while.  Well, I should'nt say
bothering, maybe wondering would be better.  When
they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
"Clear caution & warning memory.  Verify no unexpected
errors. ...".  I am wondering what an "expected error" might
be.  Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
inquiring minds just gotta know............

Yeah, yeah, I know, its those dumb cosmospheres again!
=============================================================
Randy Padgett, Supervisor      BITNET   : ETRAT@TTACS        
Academic Computing Facilities  Internet : ETRAT@TTACS.TTU.EDU 
Texas Tech University          THEnet   : TTACS::ETRAT        
Lubbock, TX 79409-42042  (806) 742-3653   FAX (806) 742-1755

after prepro  From ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat
Subject Shuttle Launch Question
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 16

There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while  Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better  When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution  warning memory  Verify no unexpected
errors   I am wondering what an expected error might
be  Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
inquiring minds just gotta know

Yeah yeah I know its those dumb cosmospheres again

Randy Padgett Supervisor      BITNET    ETRATTTACS        
Academic Computing Facilities  Internet  ETRATTTACSTTUEDU 
Texas Tech University          THEnet    TTACSETRAT        
Lubbock TX 7940942042  806 7423653   FAX 806 7421755

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 17
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang) writes:

>>Well, I have typed in the OED definitions.  As you will note upon reading
>>them, a punishment, being an inanimate object, is incapable of "showing
>>mercy."  So, you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one.
>Sorry, you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the
>definition (where transf. = transferred sense and fig. =
>figurative,-ly). "Things" can be cruel. Samples of text from the first
>definition include, "Because I would not see thy cruell nailes Plucke
>out his poore old eyes," and "The puniness of man in the centre of a
>cruel and frowning universe."

Sure nails can be cruel.  I'd imagine nails in your eyes would be
*very* painful.  But, this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel, which is what you are supposed to be trying to show.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Well I have typed in the OED definitions  As you will note upon reading
them a punishment being an inanimate object is incapable of showing
mercy  So you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one
Sorry you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the
definition where transf  transferred sense and fig 
figuratively Things can be cruel Samples of text from the first
definition include Because I would not see thy cruell nailes Plucke
out his poore old eyes and The puniness of man in the centre of a
cruel and frowning universe

Sure nails can be cruel  Id imagine nails in your eyes would be
very painful  But this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel which is what you are supposed to be trying to show

keith

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 10/15 - Planetary Probe History
Supersedes: <probe_730956556@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 527
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:59:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/probe
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:19 $

PLANETARY PROBES - HISTORICAL MISSIONS

    This section was lightly adapted from an original posting by Larry Klaes
    (klaes@verga.enet.dec.com), mostly minor formatting changes. Matthew
    Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu) contributed the section on
    Voyager, and the section on Sakigake was obtained from ISAS material
    posted by Yoshiro Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp).

US PLANETARY MISSIONS


    MARINER (VENUS, MARS, & MERCURY FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)

    MARINER 1, the first U.S. attempt to send a spacecraft to Venus, failed
    minutes after launch in 1962. The guidance instructions from the ground
    stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna, so the
    onboard computer took control. However, there turned out to be a bug in
    the guidance software, and the rocket promptly went off course, so the
    Range Safety Officer destroyed it. Although the bug is sometimes claimed
    to have been an incorrect FORTRAN DO statement, it was actually a
    transcription error in which the bar (indicating smoothing) was omitted
    from the expression "R-dot-bar sub n" (nth smoothed value of derivative
    of radius). This error led the software to treat normal minor variations
    of velocity as if they were serious, leading to incorrect compensation.

    MARINER 2 became the first successful probe to flyby Venus in December
    of 1962, and it returned information which confirmed that Venus is a
    very hot (800 degrees Fahrenheit, now revised to 900 degrees F.) world
    with a cloud-covered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide
    (sulfuric acid was later confirmed in 1978).

    MARINER 3, launched on November 5, 1964, was lost when its protective
    shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary
    space. Unable to collect the Sun's energy for power from its solar
    panels, the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in
    solar orbit. It was intended for a Mars flyby with MARINER 4.

    MARINER 4, the sister probe to MARINER 3, did reach Mars in 1965 and
    took the first close-up images of the Martian surface (22 in all) as it
    flew by the planet. The probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere
    much thinner than previously thought. Many scientists concluded from
    this preliminary scan that Mars was a "dead" world in both the
    geological and biological sense.

    MARINER 5 was sent to Venus in 1967. It reconfirmed the data on that
    planet collected five years earlier by MARINER 2, plus the information
    that Venus' atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least 90 times
    that of Earth's, or the equivalent of being 3,300 feet under the surface
    of an ocean.

    MARINER 6 and 7 were sent to Mars in 1969 and expanded upon the work
    done by MARINER 4 four years earlier. However, they failed to take away
    the concept of Mars as a "dead" planet, first made from the basic
    measurements of MARINER 4.

    MARINER 8 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean in 1971 when the rocket
    launcher autopilot failed.

    MARINER 9, the sister probe to MARINER 8, became the first craft to
    orbit Mars in 1971. It returned information on the Red Planet that no
    other probe had done before, revealing huge volcanoes on the Martian
    surface, as well as giant canyon systems, and evidence that water once
    flowed across the planet. The probe also took the first detailed closeup
    images of Mars' two small moons, Phobos and Deimos.

    MARINER 10 used Venus as a gravity assist to Mercury in 1974. The probe
    did return the first close-up images of the Venusian atmosphere in
    ultraviolet, revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover,
    plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four
    Earth days. MARINER 10 eventually made three flybys of Mercury from 1974
    to 1975 before running out of attitude control gas. The probe revealed
    Mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than
    thought. This would seem to indicate that Mercury has an iron core which
    makes up 75 percent of the entire planet.


    PIONEER (MOON, SUN, VENUS, JUPITER, and SATURN FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)

    PIONEER 1 through 3 failed to meet their main objective - to photograph
    the Moon close-up - but they did reach far enough into space to provide
    new information on the area between Earth and the Moon, including new
    data on the Van Allen radiation belts circling Earth. All three craft
    had failures with their rocket launchers. PIONEER 1 was launched on
    October 11, 1958, PIONEER 2 on November 8, and PIONEER 3 on December 6.

    PIONEER 4 was a Moon probe which missed the Moon and became the first
    U.S. spacecraft to orbit the Sun in 1959. PIONEER 5 was originally
    designed to flyby Venus, but the mission was scaled down and it instead
    studied the interplanetary environment between Venus and Earth out to
    36.2 million kilometers in 1960, a record until MARINER 2. PIONEER 6
    through 9 were placed into solar orbit from 1965 to 1968: PIONEER 6, 7,
    and 8 are still transmitting information at this time. PIONEER E (would
    have been number 10) suffered a launch failure in 1969.

    PIONEER 10 became the first spacecraft to flyby Jupiter in 1973. PIONEER
    11 followed it in 1974, and then went on to become the first probe to
    study Saturn in 1979. Both vehicles should continue to function through
    1995 and are heading off into interstellar space, the first craft ever
    to do so.

    PIONEER Venus 1 (1978) (also known as PIONEER Venus Orbiter, or PIONEER
    12) burned up in the Venusian atmosphere on October 8, 1992. PVO made
    the first radar studies of the planet's surface via probe. PIONEER Venus
    2 (also known as PIONEER 13) sent four small probes into the atmosphere
    in December of 1978. The main spacecraft bus burned up high in the
    atmosphere, while the four probes descended by parachute towards the
    surface. Though none were expected to survive to the surface, the Day
    probe did make it and transmitted for 67.5 minutes on the ground before
    its batteries failed.


    RANGER (LUNAR LANDER AND IMPACT MISSIONS)

    RANGER 1 and 2 were test probes for the RANGER lunar impact series. They
    were meant for high Earth orbit testing in 1961, but rocket problems
    left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed.

    RANGER 3, launched on January 26, 1962, was intended to land an
    instrument capsule on the surface of the Moon, but problems during the
    launch caused the probe to miss the Moon and head into solar orbit.
    RANGER 3 did try to take some images of the Moon as it flew by, but the
    camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt.

    RANGER 4, launched April 23, 1962, had the same purpose as RANGER 3, but
    suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside,
    the first U.S. probe to reach the Moon, albeit without returning data.

    RANGER 5, launched October 18, 1962 and similar to RANGER 3 and 4, lost
    all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the Moon
    and drifted off into solar orbit.

    RANGER 6 through 9 had more modified lunar missions: They were to send
    back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact
    with the Moon. RANGER 6 failed this objective in 1964 when its cameras
    did not operate. RANGER 7 through 9 performed well, becoming the first
    U.S. lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through 1965.


    LUNAR ORBITER (LUNAR SURFACE PHOTOGRAPHY)

    LUNAR ORBITER 1 through 5 were designed to orbit the Moon and image
    various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned APOLLO
    missions of 1969-1972. The probes also contributed greatly to our
    understanding of lunar surface features, particularly the lunar farside.
    All five probes of the series, launched from 1966 to 1967, were
    essentially successful in their missions. They were the first U.S.
    probes to orbit the Moon. All LOs were eventually crashed into the lunar
    surface to avoid interference with the manned APOLLO missions.


    SURVEYOR (LUNAR SOFT LANDERS)

    The SURVEYOR series were designed primarily to see if an APOLLO lunar
    module could land on the surface of the Moon without sinking into the
    soil (before this time, it was feared by some that the Moon was covered
    in great layers of dust, which would not support a heavy landing
    vehicle). SURVEYOR was successful in proving that the lunar surface was
    strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from 1966 to 1968.

    Only SURVEYOR 2 and 4 were unsuccessful missions. The rest became the
    first U.S. probes to soft land on the Moon, taking thousands of images
    and scooping the soil for analysis. APOLLO 12 landed 600 feet from
    SURVEYOR 3 in 1969 and returned parts of the craft to Earth. SURVEYOR 7,
    the last of the series, was a purely scientific mission which explored
    the Tycho crater region in 1968.


    VIKING (MARS ORBITERS AND LANDERS)

    VIKING 1 was launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida on August 20, 1975 on
    a TITAN 3E-CENTAUR D1 rocket. The probe went into Martian orbit on June
    19, 1976, and the lander set down on the western slopes of Chryse
    Planitia on July 20, 1976. It soon began its programmed search for
    Martian micro-organisms (there is still debate as to whether the probes
    found life there or not), and sent back incredible color panoramas of
    its surroundings. One thing scientists learned was that Mars' sky was
    pinkish in color, not dark blue as they originally thought (the sky is
    pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the
    thin atmosphere). The lander set down among a field of red sand and
    boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image.

    The VIKING 1 orbiter kept functioning until August 7, 1980, when it ran
    out of attitude-control propellant. The lander was switched into a
    weather-reporting mode, where it had been hoped it would keep
    functioning through 1994; but after November 13, 1982, an errant command
    had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until
    further orders. Communication was never regained again, despite the
    engineers' efforts through May of 1983.

    An interesting side note: VIKING 1's lander has been designated the
    Thomas A. Mutch Memorial Station in honor of the late leader of the
    lander imaging team. The National Air and Space Museum in Washington,
    D.C. is entrusted with the safekeeping of the Mutch Station Plaque until
    it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition.

    VIKING 2 was launched on September 9, 1975, and arrived in Martian orbit
    on August 7, 1976. The lander touched down on September 3, 1976 in
    Utopia Planitia. It accomplished essentially the same tasks as its
    sister lander, with the exception that its seisometer worked, recording
    one marsquake. The orbiter had a series of attitude-control gas leaks in
    1978, which prompted it being shut down that July. The lander was shut
    down on April 12, 1980.

    The orbits of both VIKING orbiters should decay around 2025.


    VOYAGER (OUTER PLANET FLYBYS)

    VOYAGER 1 was launched September 5, 1977, and flew past Jupiter on March
    5, 1979 and by Saturn on November 13, 1980. VOYAGER 2 was launched
    August 20, 1977 (before VOYAGER 1), and flew by Jupiter on August 7,
    1979, by Saturn on August 26, 1981, by Uranus on January 24, 1986, and
    by Neptune on August 8, 1989. VOYAGER 2 took advantage of a rare
    once-every-189-years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to
    outer planet. VOYAGER 1 could, in principle, have headed towards Pluto,
    but JPL opted for the sure thing of a Titan close up.

    Between the two probes, our knowledge of the 4 giant planets, their
    satellites, and their rings has become immense. VOYAGER 1&2 discovered
    that Jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics, lightning and
    aurorae. Three new satellites were discovered. Two of the major
    surprises were that Jupiter has rings and that Io has active sulfurous
    volcanoes, with major effects on the Jovian magnetosphere.

    When the two probes reached Saturn, they discovered over 1000 ringlets
    and 7 satellites, including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep
    the rings stable. The weather was tame compared with Jupiter: massive
    jet streams with minimal variance (a 33-year great white spot/band cycle
    is known). Titan's atmosphere was smoggy. Mimas' appearance was
    startling: one massive impact crater gave it the Death Star appearance.
    The big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings. Braids,
    kinks, and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain.

    VOYAGER 2, thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts,
    continued the mission to Uranus and Neptune. Uranus itself was highly
    monochromatic in appearance. One oddity was that its magnetic axis was
    found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational
    axis, giving Uranus a peculiar magnetosphere. Icy channels were found on
    Ariel, and Miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains. 10
    satellites and one more ring were discovered.

    In contrast to Uranus, Neptune was found to have rather active weather,
    including numerous cloud features. The ring arcs turned out to be bright
    patches on one ring. Two other rings, and 6 other satellites, were
    discovered. Neptune's magnetic axis was also skewed. Triton had a
    canteloupe appearance and geysers. (What's liquid at 38K?)

    The two VOYAGERs are expected to last for about two more decades. Their
    on-target journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets
    beyond Pluto. Their next major scientific discovery should be the
    location of the heliopause.


SOVIET PLANETARY MISSIONS

    Since there have been so many Soviet probes to the Moon, Venus, and
    Mars, I will highlight only the primary missions:


    SOVIET LUNAR PROBES

    LUNA 1 - Lunar impact attempt in 1959, missed Moon and became first
	     craft in solar orbit.
    LUNA 2 - First craft to impact on lunar surface in 1959.
    LUNA 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1959.
    ZOND 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1965 since LUNA 3. Was
	     also a test for future Mars missions.
    LUNA 9 - First probe to soft land on the Moon in 1966, returned images
	     from surface.
    LUNA 10 - First probe to orbit the Moon in 1966.
    LUNA 13 - Second successful Soviet lunar soft landing mission in 1966.
    ZOND 5 - First successful circumlunar craft. ZOND 6 through 8
	     accomplished similar missions through 1970. The probes were
	     unmanned tests of a manned orbiting SOYUZ-type lunar vehicle.
    LUNA 16 - First probe to land on Moon and return samples of lunar soil
	      to Earth in 1970. LUNA 20 accomplished similar mission in
	      1972.
    LUNA 17 - Delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the Moon's
	      surface, LUNOKHOD 1, in 1970. A similar feat was accomplished
	      with LUNA 21/LUNOKHOD 2 in 1973.
    LUNA 24 - Last Soviet lunar mission to date. Returned soil samples in
	      1976.


    SOVIET VENUS PROBES

    VENERA 1 - First acknowledged attempt at Venus mission. Transmissions
	       lost enroute in 1961.
    VENERA 2 - Attempt to image Venus during flyby mission in tandem with
	       VENERA 3. Probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in
	       February of 1966. No images were returned.
    VENERA 3 - Attempt to place a lander capsule on Venusian surface.
	       Transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe
	       became the first craft to impact on another planet in 1966.
    VENERA 4 - First probe to successfully return data while descending
	       through Venusian atmosphere. Crushed by air pressure before
	       reaching surface in 1967. VENERA 5 and 6 mission profiles
	       similar in 1969.
    VENERA 7 - First probe to return data from the surface of another planet
	       in 1970. VENERA 8 accomplished a more detailed mission in
	       1972.
    VENERA 9 - Sent first image of Venusian surface in 1975. Was also the
	       first probe to orbit Venus. VENERA 10 accomplished similar
	       mission.
    VENERA 13 - Returned first color images of Venusian surface in 1982.
		VENERA 14 accomplished similar mission.
    VENERA 15 - Accomplished radar mapping with VENERA 16 of sections of
		planet's surface in 1983 more detailed than PVO.
    VEGA 1 - Accomplished with VEGA 2 first balloon probes of Venusian
	     atmosphere in 1985, including two landers. Flyby buses went on
	     to become first spacecraft to study Comet Halley close-up in
	     March of 1986.


    SOVIET MARS PROBES

    MARS 1 - First acknowledged Mars probe in 1962. Transmissions ceased
	     enroute the following year.
    ZOND 2 - First possible attempt to place a lander capsule on Martian
	     surface. Probe signals ceased enroute in 1965.
    MARS 2 - First Soviet Mars probe to land - albeit crash - on Martian
	     surface. Orbiter section first Soviet probe to circle the Red
	     Planet in 1971.
    MARS 3 - First successful soft landing on Martian surface, but lander
	     signals ceased after 90 seconds in 1971.
    MARS 4 - Attempt at orbiting Mars in 1974, braking rockets failed to
	     fire, probe went on into solar orbit.
    MARS 5 - First fully successful Soviet Mars mission, orbiting Mars in
	     1974. Returned images of Martian surface comparable to U.S.
	     probe MARINER 9.
    MARS 6 - Landing attempt in 1974. Lander crashed into the surface.
    MARS 7 - Lander missed Mars completely in 1974, went into a solar orbit
	     with its flyby bus.
    PHOBOS 1 - First attempt to land probes on surface of Mars' largest
	       moon, Phobos. Probe failed enroute in 1988 due to
	       human/computer error.
    PHOBOS 2 - Attempt to land probes on Martian moon Phobos. The probe did
	       enter Mars orbit in early 1989, but signals ceased one week
	       before scheduled Phobos landing.

    While there has been talk of Soviet Jupiter, Saturn, and even
    interstellar probes within the next thirty years, no major steps have
    yet been taken with these projects. More intensive studies of the Moon,
    Mars, Venus, and various comets have been planned for the 1990s, and a
    Mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been
    planned for 2003. How the many changes in the former Soviet Union (now
    the Commonwealth of Independent States) will affect the future of their
    space program remains to be seen.


JAPANESE PLANETARY MISSIONS

    SAKIGAKE (MS-T5) was launched from the Kagoshima Space Center by ISAS on
    January 8 1985, and approached Halley's Comet within about 7 million km
    on March 11, 1986. The spacecraft is carrying three instru- ments to
    measure interplanetary magnetic field/plasma waves/solar wind, all of
    which work normally now, so ISAS made an Earth swingby by Sakigake on
    January 8, 1992 into an orbit similar to the earth's. The closest
    approach was at 23h08m47s (JST=UTC+9h) on January 8, 1992. The
    geocentric distance was 88,997 km. This is the first planet-swingby for
    a Japanese spacecraft.

    During the approach, Sakigake observed the geotail. Some geotail
    passages will be scheduled in some years hence. The second Earth-swingby
    will be on June 14, 1993 (at 40 Re (Earth's radius)), and the third
    October 28, 1994 (at 86 Re).


    HITEN, a small lunar probe, was launched into Earth orbit on January 24,
    1990. The spacecraft was then known as MUSES-A, but was renamed to Hiten
    once in orbit. The 430 lb probe looped out from Earth and made its first
    lunary flyby on March 19, where it dropped off its 26 lb midget
    satellite, HAGOROMO. Japan at this point became the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon, joining the Unites States and USSR.

    The smaller spacecraft, Hagoromo, remained in orbit around the Moon. An
    apparently broken transistor radio caused the Japanese space scientists
    to lose track of it. Hagoromo's rocket motor fired on schedule on March
    19, but the spacecraft's tracking transmitter failed immediately. The
    rocket firing of Hagoromo was optically confirmed using the Schmidt
    camera (105-cm, F3.1) at the Kiso Observatory in Japan.

    Hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and
    performed aerobraking experiments using the Earth's atmosphere. Hiten
    made a close approach to the moon at 22:33 JST (UTC+9h) on February 15,
    1992 at the height of 423 km from the moon's surface (35.3N, 9.7E) and
    fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into
    lunar orbit. The following is the orbital calculation results after the
    approach:

	Apoapsis Altitude: about 49,400 km
	Periapsis Altitude: about 9,600 km
	Inclination	: 34.7 deg (to ecliptic plane)
	Period		: 4.7 days


PLANETARY MISSION REFERENCES

    I also recommend reading the following works, categorized in three
    groups: General overviews, specific books on particular space missions,
    and periodical sources on space probes. This list is by no means
    complete; it is primarily designed to give you places to start your
    research through generally available works on the subject. If anyone can
    add pertinent works to the list, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Though naturally I recommend all the books listed below, I think it
    would be best if you started out with the general overview books, in
    order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in
    this area. I also recommend that you pick up some good, up-to-date
    general works on astronomy and the Sol system, to give you some extra
    background. Most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good
    public and university library. Some of the more recently published works
    can also be purchased in and/or ordered through any good mass- market
    bookstore.

    General Overviews (in alphabetical order by author):

      J. Kelly Beatty et al, THE NEW SOLAR SYSTEM, 1990.

      Merton E. Davies and Bruce C. Murray, THE VIEW FROM SPACE:
       PHOTOGRAPHIC EXPLORATION OF THE PLANETS, 1971

      Kenneth Gatland, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE
       TECHNOLOGY, 1990

      Kenneth Gatland, ROBOT EXPLORERS, 1972

      R. Greeley, PLANETARY LANDSCAPES, 1987

      Douglas Hart, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT, 1987

      Nicholas L. Johnson, HANDBOOK OF SOVIET LUNAR AND PLANETARY
       EXPLORATION, 1979

      Clayton R. Koppes, JPL AND THE AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAM: A
       HISTORY OF THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY, 1982

      Richard S. Lewis, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE
       UNIVERSE, 1983

      Mark Littman, PLANETS BEYOND: DISCOVERING THE OUTER SOLAR
       SYSTEM, 1988

      Eugene F. Mallove and Gregory L. Matloff, THE STARFLIGHT
       HANDBOOK: A PIONEER'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL, 1989

      Frank Miles and Nicholas Booth, RACE TO MARS: THE MARS
       FLIGHT ATLAS, 1988

      Bruce Murray, JOURNEY INTO SPACE, 1989

      Oran W. Nicks, FAR TRAVELERS, 1985 (NASA SP-480)

      James E. Oberg, UNCOVERING SOVIET DISASTERS: EXPLORING THE
       LIMITS OF GLASNOST, 1988

      Carl Sagan, COMET, 1986

      Carl Sagan, THE COSMIC CONNECTION, 1973

      Carl Sagan, PLANETS, 1969 (LIFE Science Library)

      Arthur Smith, PLANETARY EXPLORATION: THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
       SPACE PROBES, 1988

      Andrew Wilson, (JANE'S) SOLAR SYSTEM LOG, 1987

    Specific Mission References:

      Charles A. Cross and Patrick Moore, THE ATLAS OF MERCURY, 1977
       (The MARINER 10 mission to Venus and Mercury, 1973-1975)

      Joel Davis, FLYBY: THE INTERPLANETARY ODYSSEY OF VOYAGER 2, 1987

      Irl Newlan, FIRST TO VENUS: THE STORY OF MARINER 2, 1963

      Margaret Poynter and Arthur L. Lane, VOYAGER: THE STORY OF A
       SPACE MISSION, 1984

      Carl Sagan, MURMURS OF EARTH, 1978 (Deals with the Earth
       information records placed on VOYAGER 1 and 2 in case the
       probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space,
       as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives
       themselves.)

    Other works and periodicals:

    NASA has published very detailed and technical books on every space
    probe mission it has launched. Good university libraries will carry
    these books, and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission
    you wish to read about. I recommend these works after you first study
    some of the books listed above.

    Some periodicals I recommend for reading on space probes are NATIONAL
    GEOGRAPHIC, which has written articles on the PIONEER probes to Earth's
    Moon Luna and the Jovian planets Jupiter and Saturn, the RANGER,
    SURVEYOR, LUNAR ORBITER, and APOLLO missions to Luna, the MARINER
    missions to Mercury, Venus, and Mars, the VIKING probes to Mars, and the
    VOYAGER missions to Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

    More details on American, Soviet, European, and Japanese probe missions
    can be found in SKY AND TELESCOPE, ASTRONOMY, SCIENCE, NATURE, and
    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazines. TIME, NEWSWEEK, and various major
    newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions,
    but also show you what else was going on with Earth at the time events
    were unfolding, if that is of interest to you. Space missions are
    affected by numerous political, economic, and climatic factors, as you
    probably know.

    Depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go, you
    might also wish to join The Planetary Society, one of the largest space
    groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration. Their
    periodical, THE PLANETARY REPORT, details the latest space probe
    missions. Write to The Planetary Society, 65 North Catalina Avenue,
    Pasadena, California 91106 USA.

    Good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration. I
    personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas
    in this field, and the benefits human society has and will receive from
    it are incredible, with many yet to be realized.

    Larry Klaes  klaes@verga.enet.dec.com

NEXT: FAQ #11/15 - Upcoming planetary probes - missions and schedules

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1015  Planetary Probe History
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 527
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195936 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spaceprobe
Lastmodified Date 930401 143919 

PLANETARY PROBES  HISTORICAL MISSIONS

    This section was lightly adapted from an original posting by Larry Klaes
    klaesvergaenetdeccom mostly minor formatting changes Matthew
    Wiener weembalibrawistarupennedu contributed the section on
    Voyager and the section on Sakigake was obtained from ISAS material
    posted by Yoshiro Yamada yamadayscvaxyscgojp

US PLANETARY MISSIONS


    MARINER VENUS MARS  MERCURY FLYBYS AND ORBITERS

    MARINER 1 the first US attempt to send a spacecraft to Venus failed
    minutes after launch in 1962 The guidance instructions from the ground
    stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna so the
    onboard computer took control However there turned out to be a bug in
    the guidance software and the rocket promptly went off course so the
    Range Safety Officer destroyed it Although the bug is sometimes claimed
    to have been an incorrect FORTRAN DO statement it was actually a
    transcription error in which the bar indicating smoothing was omitted
    from the expression Rdotbar sub n nth smoothed value of derivative
    of radius This error led the software to treat normal minor variations
    of velocity as if they were serious leading to incorrect compensation

    MARINER 2 became the first successful probe to flyby Venus in December
    of 1962 and it returned information which confirmed that Venus is a
    very hot 800 degrees Fahrenheit now revised to 900 degrees F world
    with a cloudcovered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide
    sulfuric acid was later confirmed in 1978

    MARINER 3 launched on November 5 1964 was lost when its protective
    shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary
    space Unable to collect the Suns energy for power from its solar
    panels the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in
    solar orbit It was intended for a Mars flyby with MARINER 4

    MARINER 4 the sister probe to MARINER 3 did reach Mars in 1965 and
    took the first closeup images of the Martian surface 22 in all as it
    flew by the planet The probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere
    much thinner than previously thought Many scientists concluded from
    this preliminary scan that Mars was a dead world in both the
    geological and biological sense

    MARINER 5 was sent to Venus in 1967 It reconfirmed the data on that
    planet collected five years earlier by MARINER 2 plus the information
    that Venus atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least 90 times
    that of Earths or the equivalent of being 3300 feet under the surface
    of an ocean

    MARINER 6 and 7 were sent to Mars in 1969 and expanded upon the work
    done by MARINER 4 four years earlier However they failed to take away
    the concept of Mars as a dead planet first made from the basic
    measurements of MARINER 4

    MARINER 8 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean in 1971 when the rocket
    launcher autopilot failed

    MARINER 9 the sister probe to MARINER 8 became the first craft to
    orbit Mars in 1971 It returned information on the Red Planet that no
    other probe had done before revealing huge volcanoes on the Martian
    surface as well as giant canyon systems and evidence that water once
    flowed across the planet The probe also took the first detailed closeup
    images of Mars two small moons Phobos and Deimos

    MARINER 10 used Venus as a gravity assist to Mercury in 1974 The probe
    did return the first closeup images of the Venusian atmosphere in
    ultraviolet revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover
    plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four
    Earth days MARINER 10 eventually made three flybys of Mercury from 1974
    to 1975 before running out of attitude control gas The probe revealed
    Mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than
    thought This would seem to indicate that Mercury has an iron core which
    makes up 75 percent of the entire planet


    PIONEER MOON SUN VENUS JUPITER and SATURN FLYBYS AND ORBITERS

    PIONEER 1 through 3 failed to meet their main objective  to photograph
    the Moon closeup  but they did reach far enough into space to provide
    new information on the area between Earth and the Moon including new
    data on the Van Allen radiation belts circling Earth All three craft
    had failures with their rocket launchers PIONEER 1 was launched on
    October 11 1958 PIONEER 2 on November 8 and PIONEER 3 on December 6

    PIONEER 4 was a Moon probe which missed the Moon and became the first
    US spacecraft to orbit the Sun in 1959 PIONEER 5 was originally
    designed to flyby Venus but the mission was scaled down and it instead
    studied the interplanetary environment between Venus and Earth out to
    362 million kilometers in 1960 a record until MARINER 2 PIONEER 6
    through 9 were placed into solar orbit from 1965 to 1968 PIONEER 6 7
    and 8 are still transmitting information at this time PIONEER E would
    have been number 10 suffered a launch failure in 1969

    PIONEER 10 became the first spacecraft to flyby Jupiter in 1973 PIONEER
    11 followed it in 1974 and then went on to become the first probe to
    study Saturn in 1979 Both vehicles should continue to function through
    1995 and are heading off into interstellar space the first craft ever
    to do so

    PIONEER Venus 1 1978 also known as PIONEER Venus Orbiter or PIONEER
    12 burned up in the Venusian atmosphere on October 8 1992 PVO made
    the first radar studies of the planets surface via probe PIONEER Venus
    2 also known as PIONEER 13 sent four small probes into the atmosphere
    in December of 1978 The main spacecraft bus burned up high in the
    atmosphere while the four probes descended by parachute towards the
    surface Though none were expected to survive to the surface the Day
    probe did make it and transmitted for 675 minutes on the ground before
    its batteries failed


    RANGER LUNAR LANDER AND IMPACT MISSIONS

    RANGER 1 and 2 were test probes for the RANGER lunar impact series They
    were meant for high Earth orbit testing in 1961 but rocket problems
    left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed

    RANGER 3 launched on January 26 1962 was intended to land an
    instrument capsule on the surface of the Moon but problems during the
    launch caused the probe to miss the Moon and head into solar orbit
    RANGER 3 did try to take some images of the Moon as it flew by but the
    camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt

    RANGER 4 launched April 23 1962 had the same purpose as RANGER 3 but
    suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside
    the first US probe to reach the Moon albeit without returning data

    RANGER 5 launched October 18 1962 and similar to RANGER 3 and 4 lost
    all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the Moon
    and drifted off into solar orbit

    RANGER 6 through 9 had more modified lunar missions They were to send
    back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact
    with the Moon RANGER 6 failed this objective in 1964 when its cameras
    did not operate RANGER 7 through 9 performed well becoming the first
    US lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through 1965


    LUNAR ORBITER LUNAR SURFACE PHOTOGRAPHY

    LUNAR ORBITER 1 through 5 were designed to orbit the Moon and image
    various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned APOLLO
    missions of 19691972 The probes also contributed greatly to our
    understanding of lunar surface features particularly the lunar farside
    All five probes of the series launched from 1966 to 1967 were
    essentially successful in their missions They were the first US
    probes to orbit the Moon All LOs were eventually crashed into the lunar
    surface to avoid interference with the manned APOLLO missions


    SURVEYOR LUNAR SOFT LANDERS

    The SURVEYOR series were designed primarily to see if an APOLLO lunar
    module could land on the surface of the Moon without sinking into the
    soil before this time it was feared by some that the Moon was covered
    in great layers of dust which would not support a heavy landing
    vehicle SURVEYOR was successful in proving that the lunar surface was
    strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from 1966 to 1968

    Only SURVEYOR 2 and 4 were unsuccessful missions The rest became the
    first US probes to soft land on the Moon taking thousands of images
    and scooping the soil for analysis APOLLO 12 landed 600 feet from
    SURVEYOR 3 in 1969 and returned parts of the craft to Earth SURVEYOR 7
    the last of the series was a purely scientific mission which explored
    the Tycho crater region in 1968


    VIKING MARS ORBITERS AND LANDERS

    VIKING 1 was launched from Cape Canaveral Florida on August 20 1975 on
    a TITAN 3ECENTAUR D1 rocket The probe went into Martian orbit on June
    19 1976 and the lander set down on the western slopes of Chryse
    Planitia on July 20 1976 It soon began its programmed search for
    Martian microorganisms there is still debate as to whether the probes
    found life there or not and sent back incredible color panoramas of
    its surroundings One thing scientists learned was that Mars sky was
    pinkish in color not dark blue as they originally thought the sky is
    pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the
    thin atmosphere The lander set down among a field of red sand and
    boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image

    The VIKING 1 orbiter kept functioning until August 7 1980 when it ran
    out of attitudecontrol propellant The lander was switched into a
    weatherreporting mode where it had been hoped it would keep
    functioning through 1994 but after November 13 1982 an errant command
    had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until
    further orders Communication was never regained again despite the
    engineers efforts through May of 1983

    An interesting side note VIKING 1s lander has been designated the
    Thomas A Mutch Memorial Station in honor of the late leader of the
    lander imaging team The National Air and Space Museum in Washington
    DC is entrusted with the safekeeping of the Mutch Station Plaque until
    it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition

    VIKING 2 was launched on September 9 1975 and arrived in Martian orbit
    on August 7 1976 The lander touched down on September 3 1976 in
    Utopia Planitia It accomplished essentially the same tasks as its
    sister lander with the exception that its seisometer worked recording
    one marsquake The orbiter had a series of attitudecontrol gas leaks in
    1978 which prompted it being shut down that July The lander was shut
    down on April 12 1980

    The orbits of both VIKING orbiters should decay around 2025


    VOYAGER OUTER PLANET FLYBYS

    VOYAGER 1 was launched September 5 1977 and flew past Jupiter on March
    5 1979 and by Saturn on November 13 1980 VOYAGER 2 was launched
    August 20 1977 before VOYAGER 1 and flew by Jupiter on August 7
    1979 by Saturn on August 26 1981 by Uranus on January 24 1986 and
    by Neptune on August 8 1989 VOYAGER 2 took advantage of a rare
    onceevery189years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to
    outer planet VOYAGER 1 could in principle have headed towards Pluto
    but JPL opted for the sure thing of a Titan close up

    Between the two probes our knowledge of the 4 giant planets their
    satellites and their rings has become immense VOYAGER 12 discovered
    that Jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics lightning and
    aurorae Three new satellites were discovered Two of the major
    surprises were that Jupiter has rings and that Io has active sulfurous
    volcanoes with major effects on the Jovian magnetosphere

    When the two probes reached Saturn they discovered over 1000 ringlets
    and 7 satellites including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep
    the rings stable The weather was tame compared with Jupiter massive
    jet streams with minimal variance a 33year great white spotband cycle
    is known Titans atmosphere was smoggy Mimas appearance was
    startling one massive impact crater gave it the Death Star appearance
    The big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings Braids
    kinks and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain

    VOYAGER 2 thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts
    continued the mission to Uranus and Neptune Uranus itself was highly
    monochromatic in appearance One oddity was that its magnetic axis was
    found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational
    axis giving Uranus a peculiar magnetosphere Icy channels were found on
    Ariel and Miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains 10
    satellites and one more ring were discovered

    In contrast to Uranus Neptune was found to have rather active weather
    including numerous cloud features The ring arcs turned out to be bright
    patches on one ring Two other rings and 6 other satellites were
    discovered Neptunes magnetic axis was also skewed Triton had a
    canteloupe appearance and geysers Whats liquid at 38K

    The two VOYAGERs are expected to last for about two more decades Their
    ontarget journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets
    beyond Pluto Their next major scientific discovery should be the
    location of the heliopause


SOVIET PLANETARY MISSIONS

    Since there have been so many Soviet probes to the Moon Venus and
    Mars I will highlight only the primary missions


    SOVIET LUNAR PROBES

    LUNA 1  Lunar impact attempt in 1959 missed Moon and became first
	     craft in solar orbit
    LUNA 2  First craft to impact on lunar surface in 1959
    LUNA 3  Took first images of lunar farside in 1959
    ZOND 3  Took first images of lunar farside in 1965 since LUNA 3 Was
	     also a test for future Mars missions
    LUNA 9  First probe to soft land on the Moon in 1966 returned images
	     from surface
    LUNA 10  First probe to orbit the Moon in 1966
    LUNA 13  Second successful Soviet lunar soft landing mission in 1966
    ZOND 5  First successful circumlunar craft ZOND 6 through 8
	     accomplished similar missions through 1970 The probes were
	     unmanned tests of a manned orbiting SOYUZtype lunar vehicle
    LUNA 16  First probe to land on Moon and return samples of lunar soil
	      to Earth in 1970 LUNA 20 accomplished similar mission in
	      1972
    LUNA 17  Delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the Moons
	      surface LUNOKHOD 1 in 1970 A similar feat was accomplished
	      with LUNA 21LUNOKHOD 2 in 1973
    LUNA 24  Last Soviet lunar mission to date Returned soil samples in
	      1976


    SOVIET VENUS PROBES

    VENERA 1  First acknowledged attempt at Venus mission Transmissions
	       lost enroute in 1961
    VENERA 2  Attempt to image Venus during flyby mission in tandem with
	       VENERA 3 Probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in
	       February of 1966 No images were returned
    VENERA 3  Attempt to place a lander capsule on Venusian surface
	       Transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe
	       became the first craft to impact on another planet in 1966
    VENERA 4  First probe to successfully return data while descending
	       through Venusian atmosphere Crushed by air pressure before
	       reaching surface in 1967 VENERA 5 and 6 mission profiles
	       similar in 1969
    VENERA 7  First probe to return data from the surface of another planet
	       in 1970 VENERA 8 accomplished a more detailed mission in
	       1972
    VENERA 9  Sent first image of Venusian surface in 1975 Was also the
	       first probe to orbit Venus VENERA 10 accomplished similar
	       mission
    VENERA 13  Returned first color images of Venusian surface in 1982
		VENERA 14 accomplished similar mission
    VENERA 15  Accomplished radar mapping with VENERA 16 of sections of
		planets surface in 1983 more detailed than PVO
    VEGA 1  Accomplished with VEGA 2 first balloon probes of Venusian
	     atmosphere in 1985 including two landers Flyby buses went on
	     to become first spacecraft to study Comet Halley closeup in
	     March of 1986


    SOVIET MARS PROBES

    MARS 1  First acknowledged Mars probe in 1962 Transmissions ceased
	     enroute the following year
    ZOND 2  First possible attempt to place a lander capsule on Martian
	     surface Probe signals ceased enroute in 1965
    MARS 2  First Soviet Mars probe to land  albeit crash  on Martian
	     surface Orbiter section first Soviet probe to circle the Red
	     Planet in 1971
    MARS 3  First successful soft landing on Martian surface but lander
	     signals ceased after 90 seconds in 1971
    MARS 4  Attempt at orbiting Mars in 1974 braking rockets failed to
	     fire probe went on into solar orbit
    MARS 5  First fully successful Soviet Mars mission orbiting Mars in
	     1974 Returned images of Martian surface comparable to US
	     probe MARINER 9
    MARS 6  Landing attempt in 1974 Lander crashed into the surface
    MARS 7  Lander missed Mars completely in 1974 went into a solar orbit
	     with its flyby bus
    PHOBOS 1  First attempt to land probes on surface of Mars largest
	       moon Phobos Probe failed enroute in 1988 due to
	       humancomputer error
    PHOBOS 2  Attempt to land probes on Martian moon Phobos The probe did
	       enter Mars orbit in early 1989 but signals ceased one week
	       before scheduled Phobos landing

    While there has been talk of Soviet Jupiter Saturn and even
    interstellar probes within the next thirty years no major steps have
    yet been taken with these projects More intensive studies of the Moon
    Mars Venus and various comets have been planned for the 1990s and a
    Mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been
    planned for 2003 How the many changes in the former Soviet Union now
    the Commonwealth of Independent States will affect the future of their
    space program remains to be seen


JAPANESE PLANETARY MISSIONS

    SAKIGAKE MST5 was launched from the Kagoshima Space Center by ISAS on
    January 8 1985 and approached Halleys Comet within about 7 million km
    on March 11 1986 The spacecraft is carrying three instru ments to
    measure interplanetary magnetic fieldplasma wavessolar wind all of
    which work normally now so ISAS made an Earth swingby by Sakigake on
    January 8 1992 into an orbit similar to the earths The closest
    approach was at 23h08m47s JSTUTC9h on January 8 1992 The
    geocentric distance was 88997 km This is the first planetswingby for
    a Japanese spacecraft

    During the approach Sakigake observed the geotail Some geotail
    passages will be scheduled in some years hence The second Earthswingby
    will be on June 14 1993 at 40 Re Earths radius and the third
    October 28 1994 at 86 Re


    HITEN a small lunar probe was launched into Earth orbit on January 24
    1990 The spacecraft was then known as MUSESA but was renamed to Hiten
    once in orbit The 430 lb probe looped out from Earth and made its first
    lunary flyby on March 19 where it dropped off its 26 lb midget
    satellite HAGOROMO Japan at this point became the third nation to
    orbit a satellite around the Moon joining the Unites States and USSR

    The smaller spacecraft Hagoromo remained in orbit around the Moon An
    apparently broken transistor radio caused the Japanese space scientists
    to lose track of it Hagoromos rocket motor fired on schedule on March
    19 but the spacecrafts tracking transmitter failed immediately The
    rocket firing of Hagoromo was optically confirmed using the Schmidt
    camera 105cm F31 at the Kiso Observatory in Japan

    Hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and
    performed aerobraking experiments using the Earths atmosphere Hiten
    made a close approach to the moon at 2233 JST UTC9h on February 15
    1992 at the height of 423 km from the moons surface 353N 97E and
    fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into
    lunar orbit The following is the orbital calculation results after the
    approach

	Apoapsis Altitude about 49400 km
	Periapsis Altitude about 9600 km
	Inclination	 347 deg to ecliptic plane
	Period		 47 days


PLANETARY MISSION REFERENCES

    I also recommend reading the following works categorized in three
    groups General overviews specific books on particular space missions
    and periodical sources on space probes This list is by no means
    complete it is primarily designed to give you places to start your
    research through generally available works on the subject If anyone can
    add pertinent works to the list it would be greatly appreciated

    Though naturally I recommend all the books listed below I think it
    would be best if you started out with the general overview books in
    order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in
    this area I also recommend that you pick up some good uptodate
    general works on astronomy and the Sol system to give you some extra
    background Most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good
    public and university library Some of the more recently published works
    can also be purchased in andor ordered through any good mass market
    bookstore

    General Overviews in alphabetical order by author

      J Kelly Beatty et al THE NEW SOLAR SYSTEM 1990

      Merton E Davies and Bruce C Murray THE VIEW FROM SPACE
       PHOTOGRAPHIC EXPLORATION OF THE PLANETS 1971

      Kenneth Gatland THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE
       TECHNOLOGY 1990

      Kenneth Gatland ROBOT EXPLORERS 1972

      R Greeley PLANETARY LANDSCAPES 1987

      Douglas Hart THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT 1987

      Nicholas L Johnson HANDBOOK OF SOVIET LUNAR AND PLANETARY
       EXPLORATION 1979

      Clayton R Koppes JPL AND THE AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAM A
       HISTORY OF THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY 1982

      Richard S Lewis THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE
       UNIVERSE 1983

      Mark Littman PLANETS BEYOND DISCOVERING THE OUTER SOLAR
       SYSTEM 1988

      Eugene F Mallove and Gregory L Matloff THE STARFLIGHT
       HANDBOOK A PIONEERS GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL 1989

      Frank Miles and Nicholas Booth RACE TO MARS THE MARS
       FLIGHT ATLAS 1988

      Bruce Murray JOURNEY INTO SPACE 1989

      Oran W Nicks FAR TRAVELERS 1985 NASA SP480

      James E Oberg UNCOVERING SOVIET DISASTERS EXPLORING THE
       LIMITS OF GLASNOST 1988

      Carl Sagan COMET 1986

      Carl Sagan THE COSMIC CONNECTION 1973

      Carl Sagan PLANETS 1969 LIFE Science Library

      Arthur Smith PLANETARY EXPLORATION THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
       SPACE PROBES 1988

      Andrew Wilson JANES SOLAR SYSTEM LOG 1987

    Specific Mission References

      Charles A Cross and Patrick Moore THE ATLAS OF MERCURY 1977
       The MARINER 10 mission to Venus and Mercury 19731975

      Joel Davis FLYBY THE INTERPLANETARY ODYSSEY OF VOYAGER 2 1987

      Irl Newlan FIRST TO VENUS THE STORY OF MARINER 2 1963

      Margaret Poynter and Arthur L Lane VOYAGER THE STORY OF A
       SPACE MISSION 1984

      Carl Sagan MURMURS OF EARTH 1978 Deals with the Earth
       information records placed on VOYAGER 1 and 2 in case the
       probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space
       as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives
       themselves

    Other works and periodicals

    NASA has published very detailed and technical books on every space
    probe mission it has launched Good university libraries will carry
    these books and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission
    you wish to read about I recommend these works after you first study
    some of the books listed above

    Some periodicals I recommend for reading on space probes are NATIONAL
    GEOGRAPHIC which has written articles on the PIONEER probes to Earths
    Moon Luna and the Jovian planets Jupiter and Saturn the RANGER
    SURVEYOR LUNAR ORBITER and APOLLO missions to Luna the MARINER
    missions to Mercury Venus and Mars the VIKING probes to Mars and the
    VOYAGER missions to Jupiter Saturn Uranus and Neptune

    More details on American Soviet European and Japanese probe missions
    can be found in SKY AND TELESCOPE ASTRONOMY SCIENCE NATURE and
    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazines TIME NEWSWEEK and various major
    newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions
    but also show you what else was going on with Earth at the time events
    were unfolding if that is of interest to you Space missions are
    affected by numerous political economic and climatic factors as you
    probably know

    Depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go you
    might also wish to join The Planetary Society one of the largest space
    groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration Their
    periodical THE PLANETARY REPORT details the latest space probe
    missions Write to The Planetary Society 65 North Catalina Avenue
    Pasadena California 91106 USA

    Good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration I
    personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas
    in this field and the benefits human society has and will receive from
    it are incredible with many yet to be realized

    Larry Klaes  klaesvergaenetdeccom

NEXT FAQ 1115  Upcoming planetary probes  missions and schedules

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
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Robert Singleton (bobs@thnext.mit.edu) wrote:

: > Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but it lends weight to (i.e. increases
: > notional running estimates of the posterior probability of) the 
: > atheist's pitch in the partition, and thus necessarily reduces the same 
: > quantity in the theist's pitch. This is because the `divine component' 
: > falls prey to Ockham's Razor, the phenomenon being satisfactorily 
:                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > explained without it, and there being no independent evidence of any 
:   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > such component. More detail in the next post.
: > 

Occam's Razor is not a law of nature, it is way of analyzing an
argument, even so, it interesting how often it's cited here and to
what end. 
It seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being
primitive, simple-minded and unscientific, anti-intellectual and
childish, and yet again condemned as being too complex (Occam's
razor), the scientific explanation of things being much more
straightforeward and, apparently, simpler. Which is it to be - which
is the "non-essential", and how do you know?
Considering that even scientists don't fully comprehend science due to
its complexity and diversity. Maybe William of Occam has performed a
lobotomy, kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away ...

This is all very confusing, I'm sure one of you will straighten me out
tough.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
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Lines 30

Robert Singleton bobsthnextmitedu wrote

  Sure it isnt mutually exclusive but it lends weight to ie increases
  notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the 
  atheists pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same 
  quantity in the theists pitch This is because the `divine component 
  falls prey to Ockhams Razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily 
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  such component More detail in the next post
  

Occams Razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an
argument even so it interesting how often its cited here and to
what end 
It seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being
primitive simpleminded and unscientific antiintellectual and
childish and yet again condemned as being too complex Occams
razor the scientific explanation of things being much more
straightforeward and apparently simpler Which is it to be  which
is the nonessential and how do you know
Considering that even scientists dont fully comprehend science due to
its complexity and diversity Maybe William of Occam has performed a
lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away 

This is all very confusing Im sure one of you will straighten me out
tough

Bill

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
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Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <930404.112127.2h6.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> >                                      And we, meaning people who drive,
|> > accept the risks of doing so, and contribute tax money to design systems
|> > to minimize those risks.
|> 
|> Eh?  We already have systems to minimize those risks.  It's just that you car
|> drivers don't want to use them.
|> 
|> They're called bicycles, trains and buses.

Poor Matthew.   A million posters to call "you car drivers" and he
chooses me, a non car owner.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  mathewmantiscouk mathew writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
                                       And we meaning people who drive
  accept the risks of doing so and contribute tax money to design systems
  to minimize those risks
 
 Eh  We already have systems to minimize those risks  Its just that you car
 drivers dont want to use them
 
 Theyre called bicycles trains and buses

Poor Matthew   A million posters to call you car drivers and he
chooses me a non car owner

jon

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: getting to the point!
Lines: 12
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 12

To all a.a readers:
     I have been asked be several of you to post a list of the SDA Church's 
27 Fundamental beliefs.  I warn you now, it's a long list.  However, I'll 
post it on Sunday.  Sabbath is coming up soon so I won't be reading on 
Saturday.  And I don't have time to do it now.
     I would GREATLY appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with what's 
going on.
     I hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend.  I hope it's 
the best one so far!!

Tammy


after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject getting to the point
Lines 12
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 12

To all aa readers
     I have been asked be several of you to post a list of the SDA Churchs 
27 Fundamental beliefs  I warn you now its a long list  However Ill 
post it on Sunday  Sabbath is coming up soon so I wont be reading on 
Saturday  And I dont have time to do it now
     I would GREATLY appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with whats 
going on
     I hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend  I hope its 
the best one so far

Tammy


preprocess doc  Subject: A word of advice
From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Summary: was Re: Yeah, Right
Lines: 14

In article <65882@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>
>I've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you
>might have caught on by now.  And there is no "alternative", but the point
>is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either.  The problems of metaphysical
>and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or I should say, humans cannot
>solve them.

How does that saying go: Those who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt
those who are doing it.

Jim
--
Have you washed your brain today?

after prepro  Subject A word of advice
From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Organization Nyx Public Access Unix at U of Denver MathCS dept
Summary was Re Yeah Right
Lines 14

In article 65882mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes

Ive said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you
might have caught on by now  And there is no alternative but the point
is rationality isnt an alternative either  The problems of metaphysical
and religious knowledge are unsolvable or I should say humans cannot
solve them

How does that saying go Those who say it cant be done shouldnt interrupt
those who are doing it

Jim

Have you washed your brain today

preprocess doc  From: enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori)
Subject: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Lines: 38

From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:

........
WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC

1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
 hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets.  Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie. Now, Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
orbit.  NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
..........

What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
Is NASA really supporting this junk?
Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
Really, really depressed.

             Enzo
-- 
Vincenzo Liguori                             | enzo@research.canon.oz.au
Canon Information Systems Research Australia | Phone +61 2 805 2983
PO Box 313 NORTH RYDE NSW 2113               | Fax   +61 2 805 2929

after prepro  From enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori
Subject Vandalizing the sky
Organization Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Lines 38

From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch


WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
 hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets  Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit  NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs


What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
Is NASA really supporting this junk
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Really really depressed

             Enzo
 
Vincenzo Liguori                              enzoresearchcanonozau
Canon Information Systems Research Australia  Phone 61 2 805 2983
PO Box 313 NORTH RYDE NSW 2113                Fax   61 2 805 2929

preprocess doc  From: JDB1145@tamvm1.tamu.edu
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
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In article <65934@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
>
>Nanci Ann Miller writes:
>
]The "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak.  Comparison of the
]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia.  This
]shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
 
Tell it to King James, mate.
 
]C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
]                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
]mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
]tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."
 
 
John Burke, jdb1145@summa.tamu.edu

after prepro  From JDB1145tamvm1tamuedu
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization Texas AM University
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NNTPPostingHost tamvm1tamuedu

In article 65934mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 

Nanci Ann Miller writes

]The corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak  Comparison of the
]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia  This
]shouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies
 
Tell it to King James mate
 
]C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
]                      but strife closed in the sod
]mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
]tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God
 
 
John Burke jdb1145summatamuedu

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
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Well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative 
posting.   

The question i have about the proton, is  could it be  handled at
one of KSC's spare pads, without major  malfunction,  or could it be
handled at kourou  or Vandenberg?   

Now if it uses storables,  then  how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york?

If  Proton were launched from a western site,  how would it compare to the
T4/centaur?   As i see it, it should lift  very close to the T4.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet


Well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative 
posting   

The question i have about the proton is  could it be  handled at
one of KSCs spare pads without major  malfunction  or could it be
handled at kourou  or Vandenberg   

Now if it uses storables  then  how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york

If  Proton were launched from a western site  how would it compare to the
T4centaur   As i see it it should lift  very close to the T4

pat

preprocess doc  From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 100

In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> 	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 

That's okay:  it's what all the rest of them who come on here say...

> makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
> lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
> writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
> in the process he became a Christian himself.

This isn't the guy who was a lawyer was he?  Could you give more info on this
guy (never mind- I'm sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post, and
it will appear there)

> 	The arguements he uses I am summing up.  The book is about whether 
> Jesus was God or not.  I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a 
> different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
> others have to say.

This is true.  Make sure it is true for ALL cases.
  
> 	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a

Why not both?  ;)
 
> modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
> 	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
> die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  

Why not die for a lie?  If you were poverty stricken and alunatic, sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me.  As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not, not necessarily.
Even if he died for what he believed in, this still makes him completely
selfish.  Like us all.  So what's the difference.


People 
> gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
> someone who was or had been healed.  Call me a fool, but I believe he did 
> heal people.  

There is no historical proof of this (see earlier threads).  Besides, he (or at
least his name), have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave.


> 	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
> to someone who was crazy.  

SIEG HEIL!!


>Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
> anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
> this right away.
>

Who is David Koresh?  I am curious.

 	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
> real thing.  

How does this follow?  Your definition of lunatic (and "disproof" thereof seem
rather... uhhh.. SHAKY)

> 	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
> the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
> and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
> write I will use it.

Good idea.

> 	I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.  It 
> is certainly not what I see a lot in churches. 

Naturally, those or not TRUE Christians, right?  ;)

> Rather I think it 
> should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
> sake.  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
> same.  Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
> over to him.  That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a 
> real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at.  But 
> just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes 
> time.  We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.  
> It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in 
> a while.  We box everything into time units.  Such as work at this 
> time, sports, Tv, social life.  God is above these boxes and should be 
> carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
> ourselves.  	  


Someone else handle this, I don't know if it's worth it... *sigh*


********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper		"Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
*				   who thought themselves good simply because  *
* acooper@macalstr.edu				they had no claws."	       *
********************************************************************************

after prepro  From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Macalester College
Lines 100

In article  bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
 	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 

Thats okay  its what all the rest of them who come on here say

 makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
 lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
 writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
 in the process he became a Christian himself

This isnt the guy who was a lawyer was he  Could you give more info on this
guy never mind Im sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post and
it will appear there

 	The arguements he uses I am summing up  The book is about whether 
 Jesus was God or not  I know many of you dont believe but listen to a 
 different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
 others have to say

This is true  Make sure it is true for ALL cases
  
 	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a

Why not both  
 
 modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
 	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
 die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  

Why not die for a lie  If you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me  As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not not necessarily
Even if he died for what he believed in this still makes him completely
selfish  Like us all  So whats the difference


People 
 gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
 someone who was or had been healed  Call me a fool but I believe he did 
 heal people  

There is no historical proof of this see earlier threads  Besides he or at
least his name have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave


 	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
 to someone who was crazy  

SIEG HEIL


Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
 anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
 this right away


Who is David Koresh  I am curious

 	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
 real thing  

How does this follow  Your definition of lunatic and disproof thereof seem
rather uhhh SHAKY

 	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
 the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 
 and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
 write I will use it

Good idea

 	I dont think most people understand what a Christian is  It 
 is certainly not what I see a lot in churches 

Naturally those or not TRUE Christians right  

 Rather I think it 
 should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods 
 sake  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
 same  Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
 over to him  Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a 
 real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at  But 
 just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes 
 time  We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life  
 It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in 
 a while  We box everything into time units  Such as work at this 
 time sports Tv social life  God is above these boxes and should be 
 carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
 ourselves  	  


Someone else handle this I dont know if its worth it sigh



 Adam John Cooper		Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings 
				   who thought themselves good simply because  
 acoopermacalstredu				they had no claws	       


preprocess doc   wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgi!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
 <93089.050046MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> <1pa6ntINNs5d@gap.caltech.edu> 
 <1993Mar30.210423.1302@bmerh85.bnr.ca> <1pcnqjINNpon@gap.caltech.edu> <kmr4.1344.733611641@po.CWRU.edu> <1pi9btINNqa5@gap.calte
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20

In article <1pi9btINNqa5@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
|> 
|> >>Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over?
|> >Because you rarely ever answer them.
|> 
|> Nope, I've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple
|> times.

	He:   Fifty dollars if I can't answer your question.

	She:  What is the Big Bang theory.

	He:   The Big Bang theory is a recipe for cookies.

	She:  Fifty dollars, please.

	He:   Hey, I didn't say the answers would make sense.

jon.

after prepro   wupostuunetoliveasgigatesgifidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re Pompous ass
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
 93089050046MVS104psuvmpsuedu 1pa6ntINNs5dgapcaltechedu 
 1993Mar302104231302bmerh85bnrca 1pcnqjINNpongapcaltechedu  1pi9btINNqa5gapcalte
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20

In article 1pi9btINNqa5gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
 
 Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over
 Because you rarely ever answer them
 
 Nope Ive answered each question posed and most were answered multiple
 times

	He   Fifty dollars if I cant answer your question

	She  What is the Big Bang theory

	He   The Big Bang theory is a recipe for cookies

	She  Fifty dollars please

	He   Hey I didnt say the answers would make sense

jon

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

mam@mouse.cmhnet.org (Mike McAngus) writes:

>Let me see if I understand what you are saying.  In order to talk 
>knowledgeably about religion, Atheists must first have been so immersed 
>in a religion that only the rare individual could have left.  

No, you don't understand.  I said that I don't think people can discuss
the subjective merits of religion objectively.  This should be obvious.
People here have said that everyone would be better off without religion,
but this almost certainly isn't true.

>>But really, are you threatened by the motto, or by the people that use it?
>The motto is a tool.  Let's try to take away the tool.

But, guns and axes are tools, both of which have been used for murder.
Should both be taken away?  That is to say, I don't think motto misuse
warrants its removal.  At least not in this case.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider  Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

mammousecmhnetorg Mike McAngus writes

Let me see if I understand what you are saying  In order to talk 
knowledgeably about religion Atheists must first have been so immersed 
in a religion that only the rare individual could have left  

No you dont understand  I said that I dont think people can discuss
the subjective merits of religion objectively  This should be obvious
People here have said that everyone would be better off without religion
but this almost certainly isnt true

But really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it
The motto is a tool  Lets try to take away the tool

But guns and axes are tools both of which have been used for murder
Should both be taken away  That is to say I dont think motto misuse
warrants its removal  At least not in this case

keith

preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov

There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center  that might answer 
your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow 
up I can dig that out for you.

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 7
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov

There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center  that might answer 
your question I do not have his name right now but if you follow 
up I can dig that out for you

COEgalonlarcnasagov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

preprocess doc  From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 19

In article <1r6mcgINNe87@gap.caltech.edu+ kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco) writes:
+In article <37147@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM+ wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
+++
++Once inflated the substance was no longer
++needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
++This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
++disastrous deflation.
+
+preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
+a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
+catastrophically deflated.  The large silvered shards
+
+The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon.

No, you're wrong about this. Give me some time to get my references.


-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) 

after prepro  From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Boom  Whoosh
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 19

In article 1r6mcgINNe87gapcaltechedu kwpwagcaltechedu Kevin W Plaxco writes
In article 37147scicomAlphaCDCCOM watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson writes

Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
disastrous deflation

preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to
catastrophically deflated  The large silvered shards

The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon

No youre wrong about this Give me some time to get my references


 
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM 

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 10

In article <23APR199317452695@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov> dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock) writes:
>  -  Man-Tended Capability (Griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist
>     language) ...

Glad to see Griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on
ritual purification of the language.  Pity he got stuck with the turkey
rather than one of the sensible options.
-- 
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS.    - Dick Dunn  |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 10

In article 23APR199317452695tm0006lercnasagov dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock writes
    ManTended Capability Griffin has not yet adopted nonsexist
     language 

Glad to see Griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on
ritual purification of the language  Pity he got stuck with the turkey
rather than one of the sensible options
 
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision    Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS     Dick Dunn    henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Request for Support
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 16

In article <1993Apr5.095148.5730@sei.cmu.edu> dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood) writes:

>2. If you must respond to one of his articles, include within it
>something similar to the following:
>
>    "Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges."

	Agreed.

--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Request for Support
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 16

In article 1993Apr50951485730seicmuedu dpwseicmuedu David Wood writes

2 If you must respond to one of his articles include within it
something similar to the following

    Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges

	Agreed




       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: claice@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Farmer Ted)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Nntp-Posting-Host: rintintin.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 14

> There is this buy at NASA Langley...




YES! Give me his name I would greatly appreciate it.



Rich

"The Earth is a cradle of the mind.  But, we cannot live forever in a cradle"
                         K.E. Tsiolkovski 
			 Father of Russian Astronautics

after prepro  From claicerintintinColoradoEDU Farmer Ted
Subject Re Space Debris
NntpPostingHost rintintincoloradoedu
Organization University of Colorado Boulder
Lines 14

 There is this buy at NASA Langley




YES Give me his name I would greatly appreciate it



Rich

The Earth is a cradle of the mind  But we cannot live forever in a cradle
                         KE Tsiolkovski 
			 Father of Russian Astronautics

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 18

In article <1993Apr21.140804.15028@draper.com> mrf4276@egbsun12.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Matthew R. Feulner) writes:
>|> Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.
>
>My first thought is Ross Perot.  After further consideration, I think he'd
>be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third.
>Try Bill Gates.  Try Sam Walton's kids.

When the Lunar Society's $500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit, somebody asked Jerry Pournelle "have you talked
to Bill Gates?".  The answer:  "Yes.  He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it, he'd want to run it -- and he doesn't have
the time."

(Somebody then asked him about Perot.  Answer:  "Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money.")
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 18

In article 1993Apr2114080415028drapercom mrf4276egbsun12NoSubdomainNoDomain Matthew R Feulner writes
 Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money

My first thought is Ross Perot  After further consideration I think hed
be more likely to try to win itbut come in a disappointing third
Try Bill Gates  Try Sam Waltons kids

When the Lunar Societys 500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit somebody asked Jerry Pournelle have you talked
to Bill Gates  The answer  Yes  He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it hed want to run it  and he doesnt have
the time

Somebody then asked him about Perot  Answer  Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
            <1q1kia$gg8@access.digex.net>
Lines: 18

In <1q1kia$gg8@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>In article <19930408.043740.516@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>>In <1q09ud$ji0@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>>>Why is everyone being so critical of B2?
>> Because it's bogus science, promoted as 'real' science.
>It seems to me, that it's sorta a large engineering project more
>then a science project.
  Bingo.
>B2 is not bench science,  but rather a large scale attempt to
>re-create a series of micro-ecologies.   what's so eveil about this?
 Nothing evil at all. There's no actual harm in what they're doing, only
how they represent it.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 .sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.

Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
                  nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)

after prepro  From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Biosphere II
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
            1q1kiagg8accessdigexnet
Lines 18

In 1q1kiagg8accessdigexnet Pat writes
In article 19930408043740516almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
In 1q09udji0accessdigexnet Pat writes
Why is everyone being so critical of B2
 Because its bogus science promoted as real science
It seems to me that its sorta a large engineering project more
then a science project
  Bingo
B2 is not bench science  but rather a large scale attempt to
recreate a series of microecologies   whats so eveil about this
 Nothing evil at all Theres no actual harm in what theyre doing only
how they represent it

 
 sig files are like strings  every yoyos got one

Greg Nicholls  nichovnetibmcom business or
                  nichoolympusdemoncouk private

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 72

In <1pkqe2INN54n@lynx.unm.edu> cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:

>In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>[deleted, to get to the point:]
>> 
>> Therefore, in a nutshell, my opinion is that pre-marital sex makes the
>> likelihood of extra-marital sex more probable.  Furthermore,
>> in my opinion, extra-marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads
>> to greater divorce rates.  This in turn, in my opinion, creates trauma
>> and a less stable environment for children, who are then, in my opinion,
>> more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression,
>> etc.  And thus, sex outside of marriage is, in the long run, harmful to
>> society.

>I think that you are drawing links where there are none - having sex before
>marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage. The
>issue as I see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on
>your spouse, and how confident you are about yourself. 
>	In addition, what someone does within their marriage is their own 
>business, not mine, and not yours. I have witnessed strong relationships
>that incorporate extra-marital sex. 
>	I would agree with your assertion about children - children should not  be witness to such confusing relationships - if adultery is stressful to 
>adults, which I assume it in general is, how can we expect children to 
>understand it?
>> 
>> Where is the evidence for my opinions?  At the moment, there are just
>> generalities I can cite.  For example, I read that in the 20th century,
>> the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from
>> depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies (probably
>> what I was reading referred particularly to the USA).  Similarly, one
>> can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
>> in this century in Western societies -- particularly with the "sexual
>> revolution" of the 60's, but even before that I think (otherwise the
>> "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible),
>> particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
>> Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage.  I propose
>> that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
>> (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
>> linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former.  I cannot
>> provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
>> seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.

>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation 
>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and 
>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis. 
>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people 
>experience.  

My argument is mainly a proposal of what I think is a plausible argument
against extra-marital sex -- one which I personally believe has some
truth.  My main purpose for posting it here is to show that a
_plausible_ argument can be made against extra-marital sex.  At this
stage I am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or
anything like that, just that it is plausible.  To try to convince you
all of this particular point of view, I would probably have to do a lot
of work researching what has been done in this field, etc., in order to
gather further evidence, which I simply do not have time to do now.  

Also note that I said that I think extra-marital sex is "a prime cause"
(in my opinion) of the generally greater levels of psychological
problems, especially depression, in Western societies.  I am not saying
it is "the prime cause" or "the only cause", just "a prime cause" --
i.e. one of the significant contributions to this trend.  I think when
you say you think my view is simplistic, you have forgotten this -- I
admit that there are probably other factors, but I do think that
extra-marital sex (and, IMO, subsequent destabilization of the family)
is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like
depression in Western society this century.
 
 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 72

In 1pkqe2INN54nlynxunmedu cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes

In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
[deleted to get to the point]
 
 Therefore in a nutshell my opinion is that premarital sex makes the
 likelihood of extramarital sex more probable  Furthermore
 in my opinion extramarital sex helps break down partnerships and leads
 to greater divorce rates  This in turn in my opinion creates trauma
 and a less stable environment for children who are then in my opinion
 more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression
 etc  And thus sex outside of marriage is in the long run harmful to
 society

I think that you are drawing links where there are none  having sex before
marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage The
issue as I see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on
your spouse and how confident you are about yourself 
	In addition what someone does within their marriage is their own 
business not mine and not yours I have witnessed strong relationships
that incorporate extramarital sex 
	I would agree with your assertion about children  children should not  be witness to such confusing relationships  if adultery is stressful to 
adults which I assume it in general is how can we expect children to 
understand it
 
 Where is the evidence for my opinions  At the moment there are just
 generalities I can cite  For example I read that in the 20th century
 the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from
 depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies probably
 what I was reading referred particularly to the USA  Similarly one
 can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
 in this century in Western societies  particularly with the sexual
 revolution of the 60s but even before that I think otherwise the
 sexual revolution of the 60s would not have been possible
 particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
 Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage  I propose
 that these two trends  greater level of general depression in society
 and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity  are
 linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former  I cannot
 provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
 seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it

Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation 
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and 
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis 
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people 
experience  

My argument is mainly a proposal of what I think is a plausible argument
against extramarital sex  one which I personally believe has some
truth  My main purpose for posting it here is to show that a
_plausible_ argument can be made against extramarital sex  At this
stage I am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or
anything like that just that it is plausible  To try to convince you
all of this particular point of view I would probably have to do a lot
of work researching what has been done in this field etc in order to
gather further evidence which I simply do not have time to do now  

Also note that I said that I think extramarital sex is a prime cause
in my opinion of the generally greater levels of psychological
problems especially depression in Western societies  I am not saying
it is the prime cause or the only cause just a prime cause 
ie one of the significant contributions to this trend  I think when
you say you think my view is simplistic you have forgotten this  I
admit that there are probably other factors but I do think that
extramarital sex and IMO subsequent destabilization of the family
is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like
depression in Western society this century
 
 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Magellan Update - 04/23/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager

                     MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                         April 23, 1993

1.  The Magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally, gathering
gravity data to plot the density variations of Venus in the
mid-latitudes.  The solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees
and spacecraft temperatures dropped 2-3 degrees C.

2.  An end-to-end test of the Delayed Aerobraking Data readout
process was conducted this week in preparation for the Transition
Experiment.  There was some difficulty locking up to the data frames,
and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in
equipment at the tracking station.

3.  Magellan has completed 7277 orbits of Venus and is now 32 days
from the end of Cycle 4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.

4.  Magellan scientists were participating in the Brown-Vernadsky
Microsymposium at Brown University in Providence, RI, this week.  This
joint meeting of U.S. and Russian Venus researchers has been
continuing for many years.

5.  A three-day simulation of Transition Experiment aerobraking
activities is planned for next week, including Orbit Trim Maneuvers
and Starcal (Star calibration) Orbits.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Magellan Update  042393
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 34
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager

                     MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                         April 23 1993

1  The Magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally gathering
gravity data to plot the density variations of Venus in the
midlatitudes  The solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees
and spacecraft temperatures dropped 23 degrees C

2  An endtoend test of the Delayed Aerobraking Data readout
process was conducted this week in preparation for the Transition
Experiment  There was some difficulty locking up to the data frames
and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in
equipment at the tracking station

3  Magellan has completed 7277 orbits of Venus and is now 32 days
from the end of Cycle 4 and the start of the Transition Experiment

4  Magellan scientists were participating in the BrownVernadsky
Microsymposium at Brown University in Providence RI this week  This
joint meeting of US and Russian Venus researchers has been
continuing for many years

5  A threeday simulation of Transition Experiment aerobraking
activities is planned for next week including Orbit Trim Maneuvers
and Starcal Star calibration Orbits
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.000021.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 55
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1993Apr22.162501.747@indyvax.iupui.edu>, tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
> In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
> such a contest without delving to deep into the budget.  I mentioned
> granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining
> rights.)  Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
> not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
> situation for the winner.)  So how about this?  Give the winning group
> (I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
> moratorium on taxes.
> 
> Tom Freebairn 


Who says there is no mineral rights to be given? Who says? The UN or the US
Government? 
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
The UN can't other than legal tom foolerie.. Can the truly inforce it?

If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
stop you from doing it. Maybe not acknowledge you? 

Why can't a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great
beyond of space? what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is
not.. Maybe I am a few years ahead on this.. It is liek the old Catholic Church 
stating which was Portugals and what was Spains, and along came the Reformation
and made it all null and void.. 

What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what
ever.. As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble..
Basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason
or another, but who will give you a "home".. Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever..
There are nations in the World who are not part of the UN, got to them and
offer your services and such.. I know that sound crazy, but. is it..
Also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it.
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will
not care.. 
If your worried about the US, do the same thing..

Why be limited by the short sighted people of earth.. After all they have many
other things to worry about that if someone is mining the Moon or MArs or what
ever..
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out, to do jus ta  little bit more, and to tell the crown to
piss off.. If my ancestors thought the way many today think, Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea..

I just read a good book, "Tower of the Gods" Interesting..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked


 

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
ArticleID aurora1993Apr230000211
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 55
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1993Apr22162501747indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
 In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
 such a contest without delving to deep into the budget  I mentioned
 granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining
 rights  Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
 not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
 situation for the winner  So how about this  Give the winning group
 I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
 moratorium on taxes
 
 Tom Freebairn 


Who says there is no mineral rights to be given Who says The UN or the US
Government 
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
The UN cant other than legal tom foolerie Can the truly inforce it

If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it Maybe not acknowledge you 

Why cant a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great
beyond of space what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is
not Maybe I am a few years ahead on this It is liek the old Catholic Church 
stating which was Portugals and what was Spains and along came the Reformation
and made it all null and void 

What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroidsmarsmoon or what
ever As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble
Basically find a country who wants to go into space but cant for soem reason
or another but who will give you a home Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever
There are nations in the World who are not part of the UN got to them and
offer your services and such I know that sound crazy but is it
Also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will
not care 
If your worried about the US do the same thing

Why be limited by the short sighted people of earth After all they have many
other things to worry about that if someone is mining the Moon or MArs or what
ever
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out to do jus ta  little bit more and to tell the crown to
piss off If my ancestors thought the way many today think Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea

I just read a good book Tower of the Gods Interesting


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked


 

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 91

In article <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:

>I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
>line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
>wrap at this university. 

Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and
non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors.
The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL
charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers; they charge a fee.

Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack
experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand
the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't
a flame, jsut a statement.

Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do.

>>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>>costing people how much fee they add to a project.

>I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
>any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.

Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in
their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer.

>No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
>of the Overhead capital of NASA. 

Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead.

>Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
>better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on.

Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station.

>Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
>at a place where everything is overhead.

When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that
integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort.

>Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
>demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being 
>selective with the facts again.

The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address
the problems until the press published the story.

Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns?

>If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
>of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
>"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
>for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a 
>blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.

You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for
resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport.

>Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
>to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
>do so.

I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------60 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 91

In article 17APR199316423628judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes

I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university 

Dennis I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of  Customers included government including NASA for profit and
nonprofit companies All expected a wrap usually called a fee Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors
The subcontractors where universities forprofits nonprofits and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space ALL
charged fees as part of the work Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers they charge a fee

Now Im sure your a competent engineer Dennis but you clearly lack
experience in several areas Your posts show that you dont understand
the importance of integration in large projects You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything This isnt
a flame jsut a statement

Your employer DOES charge a fee You may not see it but you do

Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project

I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead

Well there you are Dennis As I said they simply include the fee in
their overhead Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer

No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA 

Integration Dennis isnt overhead

Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on

Dennis Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion  the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station

Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead

When you have a bit more experience Dennis you will realize that
integration isnt overhead It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort

Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being 
selective with the facts again

The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress Suprise suprise The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldnt address
the problems until the press published the story

Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns

If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a 
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see

You should know Dennis that NASA doesnt include transport costs for
resuply That comes from the Shuttle budget What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport

Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so

I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
60 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21

In article <C5MtyJ.12q@well.sf.ca.us> collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins) writes:
>The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include...
>If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with
>current technology.

You're assuming that "go solar" = "photovoltaic".  Solar dynamic power
(turbo-alternators) doesn't have this problem.  It also has rather less
air drag due to its higher efficiency, which is a non-trivial win for big
solar plants at low altitude.

Now, you might have to replace the *rest* of the electronics fairly often,
unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding.

>Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
>by international treaty.

References?  Such treaties have been *proposed*, but as far as I know,
none of them has ever been negotiated or signed.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21

In article  collinswellsfcaus Steve Collins writes
The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include
If you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with
current technology

Youre assuming that go solar  photovoltaic  Solar dynamic power
turboalternators doesnt have this problem  It also has rather less
air drag due to its higher efficiency which is a nontrivial win for big
solar plants at low altitude

Now you might have to replace the rest of the electronics fairly often
unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding

Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty

References  Such treaties have been proposed but as far as I know
none of them has ever been negotiated or signed
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter)
Subject: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
Nntp-Posting-Host: bmdhh286
Organization: BNR-Europe-Limited, Maidenhead, England
Lines: 17

In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
|> 3.  On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.

This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?

Thanks, Alan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Belle Vue Court    |"They're unfriendly, which    | Home: 0684 564438
32 Belle Vue Terrace | is fortunate, really. They'd | Away: 0628 784351
Great Malvern        | be difficult to like."       | Work: 0628 794137
Worcestershire       |                              |
WR14 4PZ             | Kerr Avon, Blake's Seven     | Temporary: agc@bnr.ca
England              |                              | Permanent: alan@gid.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

after prepro  From agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter
Subject Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update  042293
Keywords Galileo JPL
NntpPostingHost bmdhh286
Organization BNREuropeLimited Maidenhead England
Lines 17

In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 3  On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase

This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is

Thanks Alan


1 Belle Vue Court    Theyre unfriendly which     Home 0684 564438
32 Belle Vue Terrace  is fortunate really Theyd  Away 0628 784351
Great Malvern         be difficult to like        Work 0628 794137
Worcestershire                                     
WR14 4PZ              Kerr Avon Blakes Seven      Temporary agcbnrca
England                                             Permanent alangidcouk


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: sgi
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qjipo$pen@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> In article <1qinmd$sp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #|> 
|> #|> At any rate, even if your interpretation is correct this does 
|> #|> not imply that the killings are religously motivated, which was 
|> #|> the original poster's seeming claim.
|> #
|> #Tricky, tricky.   I'm replying to your blanket claim that they
|> #are *not* religiously motivated.
|> 
|> They aren't.  Irish catholics in the south do not kill Irish protestants
|> in the south, yet have precisely the same history behind them.  Those
|> who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather
|> obvious matter of British occupation, partition and misguided patriotism
|> on both sides. 

False dichotomy.  You claimed the killing were *not* religiously
motivated, and I'm saying that's wrong.   I'm not saying that
each and every killing is religiously motivate, as I spelled out
in detail.


|> 
|> The problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical
|> roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated
|> by a protestant one.   The grotesque killing of soldiers and 
|> civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism, civil rights issues, and 
|> revenge.  It's only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard 
|> to understand - religion need not be invoked to explain it.  

Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph?


|> #But to claim that "The killings in N.I are not religously 
|> #motivated." is grotesque.   All that means is that the Church
|> #and believers are doing what they always do with history
|> #they can't face: they rewrite it.
|> 
|> You're attacking a different claim.  My claim is that when an IRA
|> terrorist plants a bomb in Warrington s/he does not have as a motive 
|> the greater glory of God. 

Sorry, Frank, but what I put in quotes is your own words from your
posting <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>.  Don't tell us now that 
it's a different claim.   If you can no longer stand behind your 
original claim, just say so.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization sgi
Lines 48
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1qjipopenhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 In article 1qinmdspfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
  
  At any rate even if your interpretation is correct this does 
  not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was 
  the original posters seeming claim
 
 Tricky tricky   Im replying to your blanket claim that they
 are not religiously motivated
 
 They arent  Irish catholics in the south do not kill Irish protestants
 in the south yet have precisely the same history behind them  Those
 who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather
 obvious matter of British occupation partition and misguided patriotism
 on both sides 

False dichotomy  You claimed the killing were not religiously
motivated and Im saying thats wrong   Im not saying that
each and every killing is religiously motivate as I spelled out
in detail


 
 The problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical
 roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated
 by a protestant one   The grotesque killing of soldiers and 
 civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism civil rights issues and 
 revenge  Its only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard 
 to understand  religion need not be invoked to explain it  

Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph


 But to claim that The killings in NI are not religously 
 motivated is grotesque   All that means is that the Church
 and believers are doing what they always do with history
 they cant face they rewrite it
 
 Youre attacking a different claim  My claim is that when an IRA
 terrorist plants a bomb in Warrington she does not have as a motive 
 the greater glory of God 

Sorry Frank but what I put in quotes is your own words from your
posting 1qi83bec4horusapmchpsnide  Dont tell us now that 
its a different claim   If you can no longer stand behind your 
original claim just say so

jon

preprocess doc  From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Questions about Titan IV and Ariane 5
Distribution: sci
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Lines: 26
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <C50orq.7G0@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, gwg33762@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Garret W. Gengler) writes...
>In sci.space you write:
> 
>>Try the ENVIRONET database at GSFC. FTP to envnet.gsfc.nasa.gov or 
>>128.183.104.16, or call (310)286-5690.  They have data on STS, Ariane, Titan, 
>>Atlas, Delta and Scout launch environments.
> 
>Howdy.  Thanks for the info.
> 
>I tried "anonymous" FTP there, but it didn't work.
>I also tried telnetting to the same address, but it asked for a login
>and password, although there was a note saying that the new username for
>environet was "envnet".  
> 
>Anyways, do you have any idea what else I should try?
> 
>Thanks,
>Garret
> 
> 
The home office number for ENVIRONET is (301) 286-5690 (note area
code change).  A friend of mine used to use it to get LDEF data, but
he had to apply for a login name and password.  I have a call in for
more info, which I hope to get in the morning.

David W. @ GSFC

after prepro  From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Questions about Titan IV and Ariane 5
Distribution sci
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center  Robotics Lab
Lines 26
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1

In article  gwg33762uxacsouiucedu Garret W Gengler writes
In scispace you write
 
Try the ENVIRONET database at GSFC FTP to envnetgsfcnasagov or 
12818310416 or call 3102865690  They have data on STS Ariane Titan 
Atlas Delta and Scout launch environments
 
Howdy  Thanks for the info
 
I tried anonymous FTP there but it didnt work
I also tried telnetting to the same address but it asked for a login
and password although there was a note saying that the new username for
environet was envnet  
 
Anyways do you have any idea what else I should try
 
Thanks
Garret
 
 
The home office number for ENVIRONET is 301 2865690 note area
code change  A friend of mine used to use it to get LDEF data but
he had to apply for a login name and password  I have a call in for
more info which I hope to get in the morning

David W  GSFC

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17

In article <1quh78INNf45@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>> >The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
>> >When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display...
>> Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
>> month...
>
>Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I was there three weeks ago and
>it wasn't there.  Not that I would have known to look for it, of course,
>but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
>would have caught my attention instantly.

It wasn't especially prominent, as I recall.  However, quite possibly it's
no longer on display; NASM, like most museums, has much more stuff than it
can display at once, and does rotate the displays occasionally.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17

In article 1quh78INNf45elroyjplnasagov pjseuclidjplnasagov writes
 The National Air  Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
 When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display
 Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
 month

Sorry to put a damper on your plans but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasnt there  Not that I would have known to look for it of course
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly

It wasnt especially prominent as I recall  However quite possibly its
no longer on display NASM like most museums has much more stuff than it
can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Speculations
From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 17

In article <930405.172903.4w6.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> If this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim, then why can't
>> he terminate eternity?
>
>For the same reason he can't flibble glop ork groink.
>
>The thing you are demanding that he must be able to do, has no meaning in its
>own terms.

This is a classic example of excessive faith in reason.  The fact that we
have trouble talking about something doesn't imply that it is impossible; it
simply implies that it is hard to talk about.  There is a very good chance
that God *can* flibble glop ork groink.  Charlie Wingate can flibble glop
ork groink, and he isn't even God.
--
Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.

after prepro  Subject Re Speculations
From dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 17

In article 9304051729034w6rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew  writes
Nanci Ann Miller  writes
 If this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim then why cant
 he terminate eternity

For the same reason he cant flibble glop ork groink

The thing you are demanding that he must be able to do has no meaning in its
own terms

This is a classic example of excessive faith in reason  The fact that we
have trouble talking about something doesnt imply that it is impossible it
simply implies that it is hard to talk about  There is a very good chance
that God can flibble glop ork groink  Charlie Wingate can flibble glop
ork groink and he isnt even God

Doug Graham         dgrahambnrca         My opinions are my own

preprocess doc  From: ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Article-I.D.: agate.1pr5u2$t0b
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.berkeley.edu

I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade (69-70, 70-71).  They came in Chocolate,
strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed
like space foil at the time).  

The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly.  It was
most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar."  Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins.  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste.  Strawberry sucked.

Man, these were my "60's."


-- 
Gavin Helf
UC Berkeley Political Science
Berkeley-Stanford Program in Soviet Studies
ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu

after prepro  From ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
ArticleID agate1pr5u2t0b
Organization University of California Berkeley
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost violetberkeleyedu

I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade 6970 7071  They came in Chocolate
strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed
like space foil at the time  

The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly  It was
most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar  Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins  The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste  Strawberry sucked

Man these were my 60s


 
Gavin Helf
UC Berkeley Political Science
BerkeleyStanford Program in Soviet Studies
ghelfvioletberkeleyedu

preprocess doc  From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 71

I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City.  Mr. Mark Holderman works down the hall from me, and can
be reached for comment at (713) 483-1317, or via e-mail at
mholderm@jscprofs.nasa.gov.

Mark proposed this design, which he calls "Geode" ("rough on the
outside, but a gem on the inside") or the "ET Strongback with
integrated hab modules and centrifuge."  As you can see from file
geodeA.gif, it uses a Space Shuttle External Tank (ET) in place of much
of the truss which is currently part of Space Station Freedom.  The
white track on the outside of the ET is used by the Station Remonte
Manipulator System (SRMS) and by the Reaction Control System (RCS)
pod.  This allows the RCS pod to move along the track so that thrusting
can occur near the center of gravity (CG) of the Station as the mass
properties of the Station change during assembly.

The inline module design allows the Shuttle to dock more easily because
it can approach closer to the Station's CG and at a structurally strong
part of the Station.  In the current SSF design, docking forces are
limited to 400 pounds, which seriously constrains the design of the
docking system.

The ET would have a hatch installed pre-flight, with little additional
launch mass.  We've always had the ability to put an ET into orbit
(contrary to some rumors which have circulated here), but we've never
had a reason to do it, while we have had some good reasons not to
(performance penalties, control, debris generation, and eventual
de-orbit and impact footprint).  Once on-orbit, we would vent the
residual H2.  The ET insulation (SOFI) either a) erodes on-orbit from
impact with atomic Oxygen, or b) stays where it is, and we deploy a
Kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating
the local space environment.  Option b) has the advantage of providing
further micrometeor protection.  The ET is incredibly strong (remember,
it supports the whole stack during launch), and could serve as the
nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits.

The white module at the end of ET contains a set of Control Moment
Gyros to be used for attitude control, while the RCS will be used
for gyro desaturation.  The module also contains a de-orbit system
which can be used at the end of the Station's life to perform a
controlled de-orbit (so we don't kill any more kangaroos, like we
did with Skylab).

The centrifuge, which has the same volume as a hab module, could be
used for long-term studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity
on humans.  The centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device
for the whole attitude control system.  The centrifuge is mounted on
one of the modules, opposite the ET and the solar panels.

This design uses most of the existing SSF designs for electrical,
data and communication systems, getting leverage from the SSF work
done to date.

Mark proposed this design at Joe Shea's committee in Crystal City,
and he reports that he was warmly received.  However, the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely.

Please note that this text is my interpretation of Mark's design;
you should see his notes in the GIF files.  

Instead of posting a 2 MB file to sci.space, I tried to post these for
anon-FTP in ames.arc.nasa.gov, but it was out of storage space.  I'll
let you all know when I get that done.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

     "...Development of the space station is as inevitable as 
      the rising of the sun." -- Wernher von Braun

after prepro  From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office 
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 71

I have 19 2 MB worth uuencoded GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City  Mr Mark Holderman works down the hall from me and can
be reached for comment at 713 4831317 or via email at
mholdermjscprofsnasagov

Mark proposed this design which he calls Geode rough on the
outside but a gem on the inside or the ET Strongback with
integrated hab modules and centrifuge  As you can see from file
geodeAgif it uses a Space Shuttle External Tank ET in place of much
of the truss which is currently part of Space Station Freedom  The
white track on the outside of the ET is used by the Station Remonte
Manipulator System SRMS and by the Reaction Control System RCS
pod  This allows the RCS pod to move along the track so that thrusting
can occur near the center of gravity CG of the Station as the mass
properties of the Station change during assembly

The inline module design allows the Shuttle to dock more easily because
it can approach closer to the Stations CG and at a structurally strong
part of the Station  In the current SSF design docking forces are
limited to 400 pounds which seriously constrains the design of the
docking system

The ET would have a hatch installed preflight with little additional
launch mass  Weve always had the ability to put an ET into orbit
contrary to some rumors which have circulated here but weve never
had a reason to do it while we have had some good reasons not to
performance penalties control debris generation and eventual
deorbit and impact footprint  Once onorbit we would vent the
residual H2  The ET insulation SOFI either a erodes onorbit from
impact with atomic Oxygen or b stays where it is and we deploy a
Kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating
the local space environment  Option b has the advantage of providing
further micrometeor protection  The ET is incredibly strong remember
it supports the whole stack during launch and could serve as the
nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits

The white module at the end of ET contains a set of Control Moment
Gyros to be used for attitude control while the RCS will be used
for gyro desaturation  The module also contains a deorbit system
which can be used at the end of the Stations life to perform a
controlled deorbit so we dont kill any more kangaroos like we
did with Skylab

The centrifuge which has the same volume as a hab module could be
used for longterm studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity
on humans  The centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device
for the whole attitude control system  The centrifuge is mounted on
one of the modules opposite the ET and the solar panels

This design uses most of the existing SSF designs for electrical
data and communication systems getting leverage from the SSF work
done to date

Mark proposed this design at Joe Sheas committee in Crystal City
and he reports that he was warmly received  However the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely

Please note that this text is my interpretation of Marks design
you should see his notes in the GIF files  

Instead of posting a 2 MB file to scispace I tried to post these for
anonFTP in amesarcnasagov but it was out of storage space  Ill
let you all know when I get that done

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

     Development of the space station is as inevitable as 
      the rising of the sun  Wernher von Braun

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 10

In article <j0=5l3=@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Dan Johnson) writes:
>In article 143048IO30436@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, <IO30436@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> () writes:

Dan Johnson-

You don't know me, but take this hand anyway.  Bravo for GO(DS) = 0. 
Beautiful!  Simply beautiful!

-jim halat


after prepro  Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 10

In article  johnsd2jec322itsrpiedu Dan Johnson writes
In article 143048IO30436MAINEMAINEEDU   writes

Dan Johnson

You dont know me but take this hand anyway  Bravo for GODS  0 
Beautiful  Simply beautiful

jim halat


preprocess doc  From: hdsteven@solitude.Stanford.EDU (H. D. Stevens)
Subject: Re: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: stanford
Lines: 38

In article <YAMAUCHI.93Apr21131325@yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu>, yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
|> >NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
|> >since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
|> >(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
|> >may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
|> >Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
|> >project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
|> >monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
|> 
|> This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people.  My
|> guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
|> build large, inflatable space structures.
|> 

The CU people have been, and continue to be big ozone scientists. So 
this is consistent. It is also consistent with the new "Comercial 
applications" that NASA and Clinton are pushing so hard. 
|> 
|> >Is NASA really supporting this junk?

Did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert 
all over it? I think the rocket people got alot of $$ for painting 
up the sides with the movie stuff. What about the Coke/Pepsi thing 
a few years back? NASA has been trying to find ways to get other 
people into the space funding business for some time. Frankly, I've 
thought about trying it too. When the funding gets tight, only the 
innovative get funded. One of the things NASA is big on is co-funding. 
If a PI can show co-funding for any proposal, that proposal has a SIGNIFICANTLY
higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no 
co-funding. Once again, money talks!


-- 
H.D. Stevens
Stanford University			Email:hdsteven@sun-valley.stanford.edu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory		Phone:	(415) 725-3293  (Lab)
Durand Building					(415) 722-3296  (Bullpen)
Stanford, CA 94305			Fax:	(415) 725-3377

after prepro  From hdstevensolitudeStanfordEDU H D Stevens
Subject Re Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization stanford
Lines 38

In article  yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
 NASA would provide contractual launch services However
 since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
 WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
 may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
 Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
 project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
 monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
 
 This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people  My
 guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
 build large inflatable space structures
 

The CU people have been and continue to be big ozone scientists So 
this is consistent It is also consistent with the new Comercial 
applications that NASA and Clinton are pushing so hard 
 
 Is NASA really supporting this junk

Did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert 
all over it I think the rocket people got alot of  for painting 
up the sides with the movie stuff What about the CokePepsi thing 
a few years back NASA has been trying to find ways to get other 
people into the space funding business for some time Frankly Ive 
thought about trying it too When the funding gets tight only the 
innovative get funded One of the things NASA is big on is cofunding 
If a PI can show cofunding for any proposal that proposal has a SIGNIFICANTLY
higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no 
cofunding Once again money talks


 
HD Stevens
Stanford University			Emailhdstevensunvalleystanfordedu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory		Phone	415 7253293  Lab
Durand Building					415 7223296  Bullpen
Stanford CA 94305			Fax	415 7253377

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 39

In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>In article <C5Jxru.2t8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike 
Cobb) writes:
>>What do you base your belief on atheism on?  Your knowledge and reasoning? 
>>COuldn't that be wrong?
>>

>  Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance.  Ignorance of the
>  existence of any god.  Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
>  because of their pride" mistake.

How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
be wrong 
to fall into the trap that you mentioned? 

Also, if I may, what the heck where we talking about and why didn't I keep 
some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were?

MAC
 


>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 39

In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike 
Cobb writes
What do you base your belief on atheism on  Your knowledge and reasoning 
COuldnt that be wrong


  Actually my atheism is based on ignorance  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god  Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
  because of their pride mistake

How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong 
to fall into the trap that you mentioned 

Also if I may what the heck where we talking about and why didnt I keep 
some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were

MAC
 


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Article-I.D.: news.C51r3o.9wK
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23

yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:

>Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
>Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
>Engineer" position?  Is this just a meaningless administrative
>shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?

Unfortunately, things have been boding ill (is that a legitimate conjugation?)
for a while.  While the Office of Exploration had some great ideas, they never
got much money.  I've heard good things about Griffin, but it's hard to want
him back in a job where he couldn't do anything.

>Does anyone know what his new duties will be?

The group examining the Freedom-based space station redesign proposals is 
headed by Michael Griffin, "NASA's cheif engineer" in the words of Space News.
I believe this is him.

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
          "Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
            	     seront capable de la realiser"
			 -Jules Verne

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Griffin  Office of Exploration RIP
ArticleID newsC51r3o9wK
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23

yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes

Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position  Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI

Unfortunately things have been boding ill is that a legitimate conjugation
for a while  While the Office of Exploration had some great ideas they never
got much money  Ive heard good things about Griffin but its hard to want
him back in a job where he couldnt do anything

Does anyone know what his new duties will be

The group examining the Freedombased space station redesign proposals is 
headed by Michael Griffin NASAs cheif engineer in the words of Space News
I believe this is him

 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
          Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
            	     seront capable de la realiser
			 Jules Verne

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 93

In article <65974@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
>>Well, John has a quite different, not necessarily more elaborated theology.
>>There is some evidence that he must have known Luke, and that the content
>>of Q was known to him, but not in a 'canonized' form.
>
>This is a new argument to me.  Could you elaborate a little?
>
 
The argument goes as follows: Q-oid quotes appear in John, but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke. However, they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such, and
not an entirely different source.
 
 
>>Assuming that he knew Luke would obviously put him after Luke, and would
>>give evidence for the latter assumption.
>
>I don't think this follows.  If you take the most traditional attributions,
>then Luke might have known John, but John is an elder figure in either case.
>We're talking spans of time here which are well within the range of
>lifetimes.
 
We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
 
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
 
 
>>>(1)  Earlier manuscripts of John have been discovered.
>
>>Interesting, where and which? How are they dated? How old are they?
>
>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand.  It was (I think) in the late
>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.
>
 
When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three?
 
 
>>I don't see your point, it is exactly what James Felder said.  They had no
>>first hand knowledge of the events, and it obvious that at least two of them
>>used older texts as the base of their account.  And even the association of
>>Luke to Paul or Mark to Peter are not generally accepted.
>
>Well, a genuine letter of Peter would be close enough, wouldn't it?
>
 
Sure, an original together with Id card of sender and receiver would be
fine. So what's that supposed to say? Am I missing something?
 
 
>And I don't think a "one step removed" source is that bad.  If Luke and Mark
>and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples, then I really
>cannot believe in the sort of "big transformation from Jesus to gospel" that
>some people posit.  In news reports, one generally gets no better
>information than this.
>
>And if John IS a diciple, then there's nothing more to be said.
>
 
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
 
The argument that John was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel
of John itself. Is there any other evidence for it?
 
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
Not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources.
 
 
>>It is also obvious that Mark has been edited. How old are the oldest
>>manuscripts? To my knowledge (which can be antiquated) the oldest is
>>quite after any of these estimates, and it is not even complete.
>
>The only clear "editing" is problem of the ending, and it's basically a
>hopeless mess.  The oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness,
>to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence.
>The most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost.
>The material from verse 9 on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent
>a synopsys of the end of Luke.
>
In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.
 
But how is that connected to a redating of John?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 93

In article 65974mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 
Well John has a quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology
There is some evidence that he must have known Luke and that the content
of Q was known to him but not in a canonized form

This is a new argument to me  Could you elaborate a little

 
The argument goes as follows Qoid quotes appear in John but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke However they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such and
not an entirely different source
 
 
Assuming that he knew Luke would obviously put him after Luke and would
give evidence for the latter assumption

I dont think this follows  If you take the most traditional attributions
then Luke might have known John but John is an elder figure in either case
Were talking spans of time here which are well within the range of
lifetimes
 
We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark
 
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly
 
 
1  Earlier manuscripts of John have been discovered

Interesting where and which How are they dated How old are they

Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand  It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200

 
When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three
 
 
I dont see your point it is exactly what James Felder said  They had no
first hand knowledge of the events and it obvious that at least two of them
used older texts as the base of their account  And even the association of
Luke to Paul or Mark to Peter are not generally accepted

Well a genuine letter of Peter would be close enough wouldnt it

 
Sure an original together with Id card of sender and receiver would be
fine So whats that supposed to say Am I missing something
 
 
And I dont think a one step removed source is that bad  If Luke and Mark
and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then I really
cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from Jesus to gospel that
some people posit  In news reports one generally gets no better
information than this

And if John IS a diciple then theres nothing more to be said

 
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument
 
The argument that John was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel
of John itself Is there any other evidence for it
 
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies
Not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources
 
 
It is also obvious that Mark has been edited How old are the oldest
manuscripts To my knowledge which can be antiquated the oldest is
quite after any of these estimates and it is not even complete

The only clear editing is problem of the ending and its basically a
hopeless mess  The oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness
to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence
The most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost
The material from verse 9 on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent
a synopsys of the end of Luke

In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak
 
But how is that connected to a redating of John
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco)
Subject: Re: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgi1.wag.caltech.edu

In article <37147@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
>+
>Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
>which expanded in vacuum. 

Called "gas".

>Once inflated the substance was no longer
>needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
>This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
>disastrous deflation.

The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance.  When they were finally punctured, this 
preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
catastrophically deflated.  The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder.

The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon.


after prepro  From kwpwagcaltechedu Kevin W Plaxco
Subject Re Boom  Whoosh
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena CA
Lines 22
NNTPPostingHost sgi1wagcaltechedu

In article 37147scicomAlphaCDCCOM watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson writes

Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum 

Called gas

Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no 
disastrous deflation

The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance  When they were finally punctured this 
preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to
catastrophically deflated  The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry though no longer useful as a passive transponder

The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon


preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
 <1q52q8INN6pi@gap.caltech.edu> <93099.234144MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
 <1q8lk3INNitq@gap.caltech.edu> <93102.062908MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
 <93105.022621TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> <1ql71pINN5ef@gap.caltech.edu>
Lines: 36

In article <1ql71pINN5ef@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan
Schneider) says:
>
>Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>>should not have available to use.
>
>It is worse than others?  The National Anthem?  Should it be changed too?
>God Bless America?  The list goes on...

Worse?  Maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt. supposedly follows.  Maybe the others
should be changed to?  But I'm not personally as concerned
about the anthem since I don't come across it in daily
nearly unavoidable routines.

>>every christian.  And I'd be tempted to rub that motto in the
>>face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
>>gets boring.
>
>Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.

I don't despise the people...just their opinions.  I meant
when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea
other than their own...then it just becomes an exercise for
amusement.

>[...]
>>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
>>   "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"
>
>Would you approve of such a motto?

No.  ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that.

after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell 
Subject Re  93099234144MVS104psuvmpsuedu
 1q8lk3INNitqgapcaltechedu 93102062908MVS104psuvmpsuedu
 93105022621TAN102psuvmpsuedu 1ql71pINN5efgapcaltechedu
Lines 36

In article 1ql71pINN5efgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan
Schneider says

Andrew Newell  writes

Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use

It is worse than others  The National Anthem  Should it be changed too
God Bless America  The list goes on

Worse  Maybe not but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt supposedly follows  Maybe the others
should be changed to  But Im not personally as concerned
about the anthem since I dont come across it in daily
nearly unavoidable routines

every christian  And Id be tempted to rub that motto in the
face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
gets boring

Then youd be no better than the people you despise

I dont despise the peoplejust their opinions  I meant
when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea
other than their ownthen it just becomes an exercise for
amusement

[]
For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
   In god gods or godlessness we trust

Would you approve of such a motto

No  not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 122

In article <ugo62B8w165w@angus.mi.org> dragon@angus.mi.org writes:

>Exactly when will the hover test be done, 

Early to mid June.

>and will any of the TV
>networks carry it.  I really want to see that...

If they think the public wants to see it they will carry it. Why not
write them and ask? You can reach them at:


                          F: NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA


ABC "World News Tonight"                 "Face the Nation"
7 West 66th Street                       CBS News
New York, NY 10023                       2020 M Street, NW
212/887-4040                             Washington, DC 20036
                                         202/457-4321

Associated Press                         "Good Morning America"
50 Rockefeller Plaza                     ABC News
New York, NY 10020                       1965 Broadway
National Desk (212/621-1600)             New York, NY 10023
Foreign Desk (212/621-1663)              212/496-4800
Washington Bureau (202/828-6400)
                                         Larry King Live TV
"CBS Evening News"                       CNN
524 W. 57th Street                       111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
New York, NY 10019                       Washington, DC 20001
212/975-3693                             202/898-7900

"CBS This Morning"                       Larry King Show--Radio
524 W. 57th Street                       Mutual Broadcasting
New York, NY 10019                       1755 So. Jefferson Davis Highway
212/975-2824                             Arlington, VA 22202
                                         703/685-2175
"Christian Science Monitor"
CSM Publishing Society                   "Los Angeles Times"
One Norway Street                        Times-Mirror Square
Boston, MA 02115                         Los Angeles, CA 90053
800/225-7090                             800/528-4637

CNN                                      "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour"
One CNN Center                           P.O. Box 2626
Box 105366                               Washington, DC 20013
Atlanta, GA 30348                        703/998-2870
404/827-1500
                                         "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour"
CNN                                      WNET-TV
Washington Bureau                        356 W. 58th Street
111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW             New York, NY 10019
Washington, DC 20001                     212/560-3113
202/898-7900

"Crossfire"                              NBC News
CNN                                      4001 Nebraska Avenue, NW
111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW             Washington, DC 20036
Washington, DC 20001                     202/885-4200
202/898-7951                             202/362-2009 (fax)

"Morning Edition/All Things Considered"  
National Public Radio                    
2025 M Street, NW                        
Washington, DC 20036                     
202/822-2000                             

United Press International
1400 Eye Street, NW
Washington, DC 20006
202/898-8000

"New York Times"                         "U.S. News & World Report"
229 W. 43rd Street                       2400 N Street, NW
New York, NY 10036                       Washington, DC 20037
212/556-1234                             202/955-2000
212/556-7415

"New York Times"                         "USA Today"
Washington Bureau                        1000 Wilson Boulevard
1627 Eye Street, NW, 7th Floor           Arlington, VA 22229
Washington, DC 20006                     703/276-3400
202/862-0300

"Newsweek"                               "Wall Street Journal"
444 Madison Avenue                       200 Liberty Street
New York, NY 10022                       New York, NY 10281
212/350-4000                             212/416-2000

"Nightline"                              "Washington Post"
ABC News                                 1150 15th Street, NW
47 W. 66th Street                        Washington, DC 20071
New York, NY 10023                       202/344-6000
212/887-4995

"Nightline"                              "Washington Week In Review"
Ted Koppel                               WETA-TV
ABC News                                 P.O. Box 2626
1717 DeSales, NW                         Washington, DC 20013
Washington, DC 20036                     703/998-2626
202/887-7364

"This Week With David Brinkley"
ABC News
1717 DeSales, NW
Washington, DC 20036
202/887-7777

"Time" magazine
Time Warner, Inc.
Time & Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York, NY 10020
212/522-1212

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 122

In article  dragonangusmiorg writes

Exactly when will the hover test be done 

Early to mid June

and will any of the TV
networks carry it  I really want to see that

If they think the public wants to see it they will carry it Why not
write them and ask You can reach them at


                          F NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA


ABC World News Tonight                 Face the Nation
7 West 66th Street                       CBS News
New York NY 10023                       2020 M Street NW
2128874040                             Washington DC 20036
                                         2024574321

Associated Press                         Good Morning America
50 Rockefeller Plaza                     ABC News
New York NY 10020                       1965 Broadway
National Desk 2126211600             New York NY 10023
Foreign Desk 2126211663              2124964800
Washington Bureau 2028286400
                                         Larry King Live TV
CBS Evening News                       CNN
524 W 57th Street                       111 Massachusetts Avenue NW
New York NY 10019                       Washington DC 20001
2129753693                             2028987900

CBS This Morning                       Larry King ShowRadio
524 W 57th Street                       Mutual Broadcasting
New York NY 10019                       1755 So Jefferson Davis Highway
2129752824                             Arlington VA 22202
                                         7036852175
Christian Science Monitor
CSM Publishing Society                   Los Angeles Times
One Norway Street                        TimesMirror Square
Boston MA 02115                         Los Angeles CA 90053
8002257090                             8005284637

CNN                                      MacNeilLehrer NewsHour
One CNN Center                           PO Box 2626
Box 105366                               Washington DC 20013
Atlanta GA 30348                        7039982870
4048271500
                                         MacNeilLehrer NewsHour
CNN                                      WNETTV
Washington Bureau                        356 W 58th Street
111 Massachusetts Avenue NW             New York NY 10019
Washington DC 20001                     2125603113
2028987900

Crossfire                              NBC News
CNN                                      4001 Nebraska Avenue NW
111 Massachusetts Avenue NW             Washington DC 20036
Washington DC 20001                     2028854200
2028987951                             2023622009 fax

Morning EditionAll Things Considered  
National Public Radio                    
2025 M Street NW                        
Washington DC 20036                     
2028222000                             

United Press International
1400 Eye Street NW
Washington DC 20006
2028988000

New York Times                         US News  World Report
229 W 43rd Street                       2400 N Street NW
New York NY 10036                       Washington DC 20037
2125561234                             2029552000
2125567415

New York Times                         USA Today
Washington Bureau                        1000 Wilson Boulevard
1627 Eye Street NW 7th Floor           Arlington VA 22229
Washington DC 20006                     7032763400
2028620300

Newsweek                               Wall Street Journal
444 Madison Avenue                       200 Liberty Street
New York NY 10022                       New York NY 10281
2123504000                             2124162000

Nightline                              Washington Post
ABC News                                 1150 15th Street NW
47 W 66th Street                        Washington DC 20071
New York NY 10023                       2023446000
2128874995

Nightline                              Washington Week In Review
Ted Koppel                               WETATV
ABC News                                 PO Box 2626
1717 DeSales NW                         Washington DC 20013
Washington DC 20036                     7039982626
2028877364

This Week With David Brinkley
ABC News
1717 DeSales NW
Washington DC 20036
2028877777

Time magazine
Time Warner Inc
Time  Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York NY 10020
2125221212

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 32

jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> Why would the Rushdie case be particularly legitimate? As I've said
> elsewhere on this issue, Rushdie's actions had effects in Islamic
> countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didn't commit
> a crime in an Islamic country.

Actually, it is simple.

A person P has committed a crime C in country X if P was within the borders
of X at the time when C was committed.  It doesn't matter if the physical
manifestation of C is outside X.

For instance, if I hack into NASA's Ames Research Lab and delete all their
files, I have committed a crime in the United Kingdom.  If the US authorities
wish to prosecute me under US law rather than UK law, they have no automatic
right to do so.

This is why the net authorities in the US tried to put pressure on some sites
in Holland.  Holland had no anti-cracking legislation, and so it was viewed
as a "hacker haven" by some US system administrators.

Similarly, a company called Red Hot Television is broadcasting pornographic
material which can be received in Britain.  If they were broadcasting in
Britain, they would be committing a crime.  But they are not, they are
broadcasting from Denmark, so the British Government is powerless to do
anything about it, in spite of the apparent law-breaking.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong.  More confusingly, I could
be right in some countries but not in others...


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 32

jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 Why would the Rushdie case be particularly legitimate As Ive said
 elsewhere on this issue Rushdies actions had effects in Islamic
 countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didnt commit
 a crime in an Islamic country

Actually it is simple

A person P has committed a crime C in country X if P was within the borders
of X at the time when C was committed  It doesnt matter if the physical
manifestation of C is outside X

For instance if I hack into NASAs Ames Research Lab and delete all their
files I have committed a crime in the United Kingdom  If the US authorities
wish to prosecute me under US law rather than UK law they have no automatic
right to do so

This is why the net authorities in the US tried to put pressure on some sites
in Holland  Holland had no anticracking legislation and so it was viewed
as a hacker haven by some US system administrators

Similarly a company called Red Hot Television is broadcasting pornographic
material which can be received in Britain  If they were broadcasting in
Britain they would be committing a crime  But they are not they are
broadcasting from Denmark so the British Government is powerless to do
anything about it in spite of the apparent lawbreaking

Of course Im not a lawyer so I could be wrong  More confusingly I could
be right in some countries but not in others


mathew

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses (good grief!)
Lines: 7

The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses good grief
Lines 7

The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.123433.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 43
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1r96hb$kbi@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> In article <1993Apr23.001718.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>>>  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
>>> when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining.
>>===
>>I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
>>miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
>>people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
>>mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).
> 
> 
> Lot's of these small miners  are no longer miners.  THey are people living
> rent free on Federal land,  under the claim of being a miner.  The facts are
> many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining,  do not
> often even live their full time,  and do fotentimes do a fair bit
> of environmental damage.
> 
> These minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's  when the west was
> uninhabited  and were designed to bring people into the frontier.  Times change
> people change.  DEAL.  you don't have a constitutional right to live off
> the same industry forever.  Anyone who claims the have a right to their
> job in particular,  is spouting nonsense.   THis has been a long term
> federal welfare program,  that has outlived it's usefulness.
> 
> pat
> 

Hum, do you enjoy putting words in my mouth? 
Come to Nome and meet some of these miners.. I am not sure how things go down
south in the lower 48 (I used to visit, but), of course to believe the
media/news its going to heck (or just plain crazy). 
Well it seems that alot of Unionist types seem to think that having a job is a
right, and not a priviledge. Right to the same job as your forbearers, SEE:
Kennedy's and tel me what you see (and the families they have married into).
There is a reason why many historians and poli-sci types use unionist and
socialist in the same breath.
The miners that I know, are just your average hardworking people who pay there
taxes and earn a living.. But taxes are not the answer. But maybe we could move
this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr231234331
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 43
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1r96hbkbiaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
 In article 1993Apr230017181auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
 when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining

I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point
 
 
 Lots of these small miners  are no longer miners  THey are people living
 rent free on Federal land  under the claim of being a miner  The facts are
 many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining  do not
 often even live their full time  and do fotentimes do a fair bit
 of environmental damage
 
 These minign statutes were created inthe 1830s1870s  when the west was
 uninhabited  and were designed to bring people into the frontier  Times change
 people change  DEAL  you dont have a constitutional right to live off
 the same industry forever  Anyone who claims the have a right to their
 job in particular  is spouting nonsense   THis has been a long term
 federal welfare program  that has outlived its usefulness
 
 pat
 

Hum do you enjoy putting words in my mouth 
Come to Nome and meet some of these miners I am not sure how things go down
south in the lower 48 I used to visit but of course to believe the
medianews its going to heck or just plain crazy 
Well it seems that alot of Unionist types seem to think that having a job is a
right and not a priviledge Right to the same job as your forbearers SEE
Kennedys and tel me what you see and the families they have married into
There is a reason why many historians and polisci types use unionist and
socialist in the same breath
The miners that I know are just your average hardworking people who pay there
taxes and earn a living But taxes are not the answer But maybe we could move
this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1r6f3a$2ai@news.umbc.edu> rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian) writes:
>how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year.
>Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles.
>Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
>the arctic circle.



If you want to have some fun.

Plug the basic formulas  into Lotus.

Use the spreadsheet auto re-calc,  and graphing functions
to produce  bar graphs  based on latitude,  tilt  and hours of day light avg.


pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 18
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1r6f3a2ainewsumbcedu roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian writes
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle



If you want to have some fun

Plug the basic formulas  into Lotus

Use the spreadsheet auto recalc  and graphing functions
to produce  bar graphs  based on latitude  tilt  and hours of day light avg


pat


preprocess doc  From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 55

In article <1993Apr23.000021.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.162501.747@indyvax.iupui.edu>, tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>> [...]  Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
>> not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
>> situation for the winner.)  So how about this?  Give the winning group
>> (I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
>> moratorium on taxes.
>> 
>> Tom Freebairn 
>
>
>Who says there is no mineral rights to be given? Who says? The UN or the US
>Government? 

Tom's right about this.  It's only a grantable right if the granter has
the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you.
Never mind the legal status.

>Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
>The UN can't other than legal tom foolerie.. Can the truly inforce it?

Nick's right about this.  It's always easier to obtain forgiveness than
permission.  Not many people remember that Britain's King George III
expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghany/appalachian
mountains.  Said subjects basically said, "Stop us if you can."  He
couldn't.

>If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
>stop you from doing it. Maybe not acknowledge you? 

That's how the USA started.  Of course, that's also how the Bolivarian
Republic started (ca. 1800-1820) in central america.  It didn't have
quite the staying power of the USA.  I'm sure there are more examples of
going far away and then ignoring authority, but none jump to mind right
now.

>What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your
>services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what
>ever.. As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble..

Or do as some whaling nations do: define whatever activities you want to
carry out as "scientific research" which just coincidentally requires
the recovery of megatonnes of minerals (or whatever), then go at it.

>Basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason
>or another, but who will give you a "home".. Such as Saudia Arabia or
>whatever..

Lute Keyser had just this sort of arrangement with Libya (I think) in
the late '70's for his commercial space launch project (one of the very
earliest).  It was killed by Soviet propaganda about NATO cruise
missiles in Africa, which made Libya renege on the arrangement.


Doug Loss

after prepro  From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 55

In article 1993Apr230000211auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1993Apr22162501747indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
 []  Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
 not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
 situation for the winner  So how about this  Give the winning group
 I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
 moratorium on taxes
 
 Tom Freebairn 


Who says there is no mineral rights to be given Who says The UN or the US
Government 

Toms right about this  Its only a grantable right if the granter has
the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you
Never mind the legal status

Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
The UN cant other than legal tom foolerie Can the truly inforce it

Nicks right about this  Its always easier to obtain forgiveness than
permission  Not many people remember that Britains King George III
expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghanyappalachian
mountains  Said subjects basically said Stop us if you can  He
couldnt

If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it Maybe not acknowledge you 

Thats how the USA started  Of course thats also how the Bolivarian
Republic started ca 18001820 in central america  It didnt have
quite the staying power of the USA  Im sure there are more examples of
going far away and then ignoring authority but none jump to mind right
now

What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroidsmarsmoon or what
ever As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble

Or do as some whaling nations do define whatever activities you want to
carry out as scientific research which just coincidentally requires
the recovery of megatonnes of minerals or whatever then go at it

Basically find a country who wants to go into space but cant for soem reason
or another but who will give you a home Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever

Lute Keyser had just this sort of arrangement with Libya I think in
the late 70s for his commercial space launch project one of the very
earliest  It was killed by Soviet propaganda about NATO cruise
missiles in Africa which made Libya renege on the arrangement


Doug Loss

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 17

In article <1qiu97INNpq6@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>
ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
 
>
> As evidence for the Resurrection, it is often claimed that the Disciples
>were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce
>their claim that Jesus had come back from the dead.
> Now, I skimmed Acts and such, and I found a reference to this happening
>to Stephen, but no others. Where does this apparently very widely held
>belief come from? Is there any evidence outside the Bible? Is there any
>evidence *in* the Bible? I sure haven't found any...
>
 
Early authors and legends. The most important sources can be found in the
Martyriologia of the Catholic Church. Makes the Grimms look like exact
science.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 17

In article 1qiu97INNpq6srvr1enginumichedu
inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles writes
 

 As evidence for the Resurrection it is often claimed that the Disciples
were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce
their claim that Jesus had come back from the dead
 Now I skimmed Acts and such and I found a reference to this happening
to Stephen but no others Where does this apparently very widely held
belief come from Is there any evidence outside the Bible Is there any
evidence in the Bible I sure havent found any

 
Early authors and legends The most important sources can be found in the
Martyriologia of the Catholic Church Makes the Grimms look like exact
science
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Science News article on Federal R&D
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <C5r2DK.764@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>, xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes:
> Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
> on Federal R&D funding.
> 
> Very briefly, all R&D is being shifted to gaining current 
> competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
> does not have as much commercial utility.
> -- 
> Chuck Divine

Gulp.

[Disclaimer:  This opinion is mine and does not represent the views of
Fermilab, Universities Research Association, the Department of Energy,
or the 49th Ward Regular Science Fiction Organization.]
 
-- 
     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS 

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Science News article on Federal RD
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 24
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article  xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
 Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
 on Federal RD funding
 
 Very briefly all RD is being shifted to gaining current 
 competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
 does not have as much commercial utility
  
 Chuck Divine

Gulp

[Disclaimer  This opinion is mine and does not represent the views of
Fermilab Universities Research Association the Department of Energy
or the 49th Ward Regular Science Fiction Organization]
 
 
     O           _      _         _  _           \
     _         _ _    _\zap
        \                          _ _                      \
             Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \            Bitnet     HIGGINSFNALBITNET
             Internet  HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV
              SPANHepnet      43011HIGGINS 

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 16

In article <C5szvL.I48@oakhill.sps.mot.com> dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com writes:
>>I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.
>
>this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie.  wouldn't there be
>a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
>to get the dough?  if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10Mil,
>then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero.
>just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
>rich.

Any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that
you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability,
rather than a lucky one-shot.  It can be done.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 16

In article  dongoakhillspsmotcom writes
Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough

this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie  wouldnt there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough  if you have a 1100 chance and it costs you 10Mil
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich

Any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that
you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability
rather than a lucky oneshot  It can be done
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: todd@phad.la.locus.com (Todd Johnson)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Lines: 28

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
;From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
;
;........
;WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC
;
;1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
;What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
;it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
;Is NASA really supporting this junk?
;Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
;Really, really depressed.
;
;             Enzo

I wouldn't worry about it.  There's enough space debris up there that
a mile-long inflatable would probably deflate in some very short
period of time (less than a year) while cleaning up LEO somewhat.
Sort of a giant fly-paper in orbit.

Hmm, that could actually be useful.

As for advertising -- sure, why not?  A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon.  Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.

<todd>

after prepro  From toddphadlalocuscom Todd Johnson
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Locus Computing Corporation Los Angeles California
Lines 28

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch


WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
Is NASA really supporting this junk
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Really really depressed

             Enzo

I wouldnt worry about it  Theres enough space debris up there that
a milelong inflatable would probably deflate in some very short
period of time less than a year while cleaning up LEO somewhat
Sort of a giant flypaper in orbit

Hmm that could actually be useful

As for advertising  sure why not  A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar wed need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon  Fortunately we sobered up in the morning



preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 12

In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
 
>        The arguements he uses I am summing up.  The book is about whether
>Jesus was God or not.  I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
>others have to say.
 
Read the FAQ first, watch the list fr some weeks, and come back then.
 
And read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 12

In article 
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
 
        The arguements he uses I am summing up  The book is about whether
Jesus was God or not  I know many of you dont believe but listen to a
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
others have to say
 
Read the FAQ first watch the list fr some weeks and come back then
 
And read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Vast Bandwidth Over-runs on NASA thread (was Re: NASA "Wraps")
In-Reply-To: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov's message of 18 Apr 1993 13:56 CDT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>
	<18APR199313560620@judy.uh.edu>
Lines: 12

In article <18APR199313560620@judy.uh.edu>, Dennis writes about a
zillion lines in response to article <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>,
in which Allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article
<17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu>, in which Dennis wrote another zillion
lines in response to Allen.

Hey, can it you guys. Take it to email, or talk.politics.space, or
alt.flame, or alt.music.pop.will.eat.itself.the.poppies.are.on.patrol,
or anywhere, but this is sci.space. This thread lost all scientific
content many moons ago.

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu

after prepro  From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Vast Bandwidth Overruns on NASA thread was Re NASA Wraps
InReplyTo wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGovs message of 18 Apr 1993 1356 CDT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
	17APR199316423628judyuhedu 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg
	18APR199313560620judyuhedu
Lines 12

In article 18APR199313560620judyuhedu Dennis writes about a
zillion lines in response to article 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg
in which Allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article
17APR199316423628judyuhedu in which Dennis wrote another zillion
lines in response to Allen

Hey can it you guys Take it to email or talkpoliticsspace or
altflame or altmusicpopwilleatitselfthepoppiesareonpatrol
or anywhere but this is scispace This thread lost all scientific
content many moons ago

Nick Haines nickhcmuedu

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Biblical Rape
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
 <1p387f$jh3@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1993Mar29.010116.18203@watson.ibm.com> 
 <16BA0D964.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> 
 <1993Apr01.184110.33851@watson.ibm.com> 
 <16BA4ADAC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> 
 <1993Apr03.012536.18323@watson.ibm.com> <16BA6C534.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> <1993Apr04.225107.39364@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 154

In article <1993Apr04.225107.39364@watson.ibm.com>
strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>
>The thread "Biblical Rape" was initiated by David O Hunt.
>Here is his posting:
>In article <8feu_KO00XsF0kpc5p@andrew.cmu.edu>, David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU> writes:
>|> I'm pretty sure I've seen biblical rules for when it's allowable to rape
>|> prisoners, what the codes are about that, etc.  Could some more
>|> knowledgable soul than I please let me know some references?
>
>He asked a very narrow question, and I gave a very narrow answer.
>
 
Yes, sorry. I have got that wrong. My apology.
 
 
(Deletion)
 
>No. David Hunt's post didn't mention a god, nor did my response.
>You were the first to bring up the idea of the Bible being "given
>by god".  Most Jews don't believe this in any literal sense.
>
 
So? No fun, but I must have met the minority then.
And "given by god" refers to any action whereby a god
god causes or better effects something.
 
 
Rob, I am not intimate with Jewish theology, but I understand
that you are a Messianic Jew. Correct me if I am wrong, but
it appears that the views of Messianic Jews on metaphysics
is different to that of the majority of Jews. While Jewish
theology overall is quite distinct from the Christianic god
views, I have heard that it is possible for Jews to attribute
evil to their god, an no-no for Christians, the Bible is
still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man.
 
 
(Deletion)
>No.  I thought we agreed that though Jews disagree,
>there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon,
>one of which is that the commandments are accessible
>and written in the language of the time, and another
>of which is that there must be a legal system to update them.
>
 
The context was metaphysics, even when the process of adapting
the commandments is not transcendent, the justification of the
process lie in metaphysic specualtion. I wonder how you break
out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system.
 
 
(Deletion)
>Could you explain this with respect to the original commandments
>being discussed --- that is, the commandment that says if
>you feel like raping a woman prisoner, you should instead
>wait and marry her?  What about "the way this commandment
>is given" invalidates it?
>
 
Is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other
reprehensible deeds. The context is repulsive, and it is
foul play, IMO, to invoke some relatively enlightened passages
as an example for the content of the whole book.
 
 
(Big deletion)
>|>
>|> The point is that I see that there is a necessary connection
>|> between the theology you use and the interpretation of the Bible.
>|>
>
>Only very loosely.  My interpretation of the Bible is
>based on a long tradition of Jewish scholars interpreting
>the Bible.  Theology doesn't really enter into it ---
>there are Jewish atheists who interpret the laws of
>charity essentially the same way I do.
>
 
No, not the interpretation of some laws, but the interpretation of
the bible. As in the example that Sodom and Gomorrha mean argue
with god. The whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows
you to argue with a god (whatever that means, that alone is a theo-
logic question) is proof of a theology used.
 
 
>|> >You pose another metaphysical riddle!
>|>
>|> No, you do.
>|>
>
>Well, you wrote this:
>|> Fine. So we have some major spirit with neither absolute power
>|> nor absolute knowledge. And, as it appears, limited means or will
>|> to communicate with us. Some form of spiritual big friend.
>|> Do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual?
>|>
>|> Am I right in the assumption that it cannot have created the
>|> universe as well? And that the passages in the Bible referring
>|> to that or its omnipotence are crap?
>
>That's what I meant by the "riddle".
>
 
It is an important question in the light of what for instance the
passage witrh Sodom and Gomorrha means. Either there is some connection
between the text, the fact that it exists, and your interpretation of
it, or it is purely arbitrary.. Further, the question is why is has
one to carry the burden of Biblical texts when one could simply write
other books that convey the message better. You might answer that one
can't becuase  some peculiar Biblical information might be lost, but
that holds true of every other book, and the question remains why has
the Bible still a special place? Can't it be replaced somehow? Is it
ok to bargain the dangerous content of the Bible against some other
message that is included as well?
 
 
(Deletion)
>|> Do you see the danger in doing so? Especially with the metaphers used
>|> in the Bible?
>
>I think the danger of doing so is less than either the
>danger of having a frozen system of laws, or having no laws.
>
 
Sorry, but there are worse systems does not say anything about if
one could not have a better system.
 
(Deletion)
>If we
>read two stories about the importance of helping the poor,
>and in one God is a spirit, and in the other God has a body,
>which is more important, helping the poor, or resolving
>the contradiction about the corporeal nature of God?
>
 
If we read two stories in the Bible, one that god commands people
to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills
children directly, what is more important to resolve, the message that
children are to be killed or if it has  to be done by god?
 
 
And the argument you have given is a fallacy, while it may not be important
in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not, it
can be crucial in other questions. Religious believers resolve contradictions
with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way,
and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some
god.
 
One cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what
is good depends on the question.
   Benedikt

after prepro  Subject Re Biblical Rape
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
 1p387fjh3fidoasdsgicom 1993Mar2901011618203watsonibmcom 
 16BA0D964I3150101dbstu1rztubsde 
 1993Apr0118411033851watsonibmcom 
 16BA4ADACI3150101dbstu1rztubsde 
 1993Apr0301253618323watsonibmcom 16BA6C534I3150101dbstu1rztubsde 1993Apr0422510739364watsonibmcom
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 154

In article 1993Apr0422510739364watsonibmcom
stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
 
Deletion

The thread Biblical Rape was initiated by David O Hunt
Here is his posting
In article 8feu_KO00XsF0kpc5pandrewcmuedu David O Hunt  writes
 Im pretty sure Ive seen biblical rules for when its allowable to rape
 prisoners what the codes are about that etc  Could some more
 knowledgable soul than I please let me know some references

He asked a very narrow question and I gave a very narrow answer

 
Yes sorry I have got that wrong My apology
 
 
Deletion
 
No David Hunts post didnt mention a god nor did my response
You were the first to bring up the idea of the Bible being given
by god  Most Jews dont believe this in any literal sense

 
So No fun but I must have met the minority then
And given by god refers to any action whereby a god
god causes or better effects something
 
 
Rob I am not intimate with Jewish theology but I understand
that you are a Messianic Jew Correct me if I am wrong but
it appears that the views of Messianic Jews on metaphysics
is different to that of the majority of Jews While Jewish
theology overall is quite distinct from the Christianic god
views I have heard that it is possible for Jews to attribute
evil to their god an nono for Christians the Bible is
still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man
 
 
Deletion
No  I thought we agreed that though Jews disagree
there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon
one of which is that the commandments are accessible
and written in the language of the time and another
of which is that there must be a legal system to update them

 
The context was metaphysics even when the process of adapting
the commandments is not transcendent the justification of the
process lie in metaphysic specualtion I wonder how you break
out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system
 
 
Deletion
Could you explain this with respect to the original commandments
being discussed  that is the commandment that says if
you feel like raping a woman prisoner you should instead
wait and marry her  What about the way this commandment
is given invalidates it

 
Is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other
reprehensible deeds The context is repulsive and it is
foul play IMO to invoke some relatively enlightened passages
as an example for the content of the whole book
 
 
Big deletion

 The point is that I see that there is a necessary connection
 between the theology you use and the interpretation of the Bible


Only very loosely  My interpretation of the Bible is
based on a long tradition of Jewish scholars interpreting
the Bible  Theology doesnt really enter into it 
there are Jewish atheists who interpret the laws of
charity essentially the same way I do

 
No not the interpretation of some laws but the interpretation of
the bible As in the example that Sodom and Gomorrha mean argue
with god The whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows
you to argue with a god whatever that means that alone is a theo
logic question is proof of a theology used
 
 
 You pose another metaphysical riddle

 No you do


Well you wrote this
 Fine So we have some major spirit with neither absolute power
 nor absolute knowledge And as it appears limited means or will
 to communicate with us Some form of spiritual big friend
 Do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual

 Am I right in the assumption that it cannot have created the
 universe as well And that the passages in the Bible referring
 to that or its omnipotence are crap

Thats what I meant by the riddle

 
It is an important question in the light of what for instance the
passage witrh Sodom and Gomorrha means Either there is some connection
between the text the fact that it exists and your interpretation of
it or it is purely arbitrary Further the question is why is has
one to carry the burden of Biblical texts when one could simply write
other books that convey the message better You might answer that one
cant becuase  some peculiar Biblical information might be lost but
that holds true of every other book and the question remains why has
the Bible still a special place Cant it be replaced somehow Is it
ok to bargain the dangerous content of the Bible against some other
message that is included as well
 
 
Deletion
 Do you see the danger in doing so Especially with the metaphers used
 in the Bible

I think the danger of doing so is less than either the
danger of having a frozen system of laws or having no laws

 
Sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about if
one could not have a better system
 
Deletion
If we
read two stories about the importance of helping the poor
and in one God is a spirit and in the other God has a body
which is more important helping the poor or resolving
the contradiction about the corporeal nature of God

 
If we read two stories in the Bible one that god commands people
to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills
children directly what is more important to resolve the message that
children are to be killed or if it has  to be done by god
 
 
And the argument you have given is a fallacy while it may not be important
in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not it
can be crucial in other questions Religious believers resolve contradictions
with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way
and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some
god
 
One cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what
is good depends on the question
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 43
NNTP-Posting-Host: rtfm.sps.mot.com


Is it just me, or has this part gotten beyond useful?

Gregg is not, as I understand his posts, giving any support to the bounty
on Rushdie's life.  If that's correct, end of one point...

Gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most Westerners don't accept.
His comments about Islamic Law I think make a great deal of sense to him,
and are even making a _little_ sense to me now - if a person is a member
of a group (religion or whatever) they bind themselves to follow the ways
of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum.
The big bone of contention here that I'm picking up is that in the West
we have secular governments that maintain, more or less, a level of control
and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups.  I think
the majority of us reading this thread are in tune (note - I didn't say
"in agreement") with the idea that you are finally responsible to the
secular government,  and within that to the group or groups a person may
have chosen.

With that in mind, it not possible under secular law ("legally" as most
people would define the term) to hold a person to a particular group once
they decide to separate from it.  Only if the secular authorities agree
that there is a requirement of some sort (contractual, etc) is there
any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past
group member.

A religion can, and often does, believe in and require additional duties
of a group member.  And it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties
in many ways - ostracism is common for example.  But the limit comes when
the enforcement would impose unwanted and/or unaccepted onus on a person
_in conflict with secular law_.

This is the difference.  In a theocracy, the requirements of the secular
authorities are, by definition, congruent with the religious authorities.
Outside a theocracy, this is not _necessarily_ true.  Religious requirements
_may_ coincide or may not.  Similiarly, religious consequences _may_ or
may not coincide with secular consequences (if any).

Regards,

Dew
-- 
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637

after prepro  From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Motorola Inc  AustinTX
Lines 43
NNTPPostingHost rtfmspsmotcom


Is it just me or has this part gotten beyond useful

Gregg is not as I understand his posts giving any support to the bounty
on Rushdies life  If thats correct end of one point

Gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most Westerners dont accept
His comments about Islamic Law I think make a great deal of sense to him
and are even making a _little_ sense to me now  if a person is a member
of a group religion or whatever they bind themselves to follow the ways
of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum
The big bone of contention here that Im picking up is that in the West
we have secular governments that maintain more or less a level of control
and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups  I think
the majority of us reading this thread are in tune note  I didnt say
in agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible to the
secular government  and within that to the group or groups a person may
have chosen

With that in mind it not possible under secular law legally as most
people would define the term to hold a person to a particular group once
they decide to separate from it  Only if the secular authorities agree
that there is a requirement of some sort contractual etc is there
any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past
group member

A religion can and often does believe in and require additional duties
of a group member  And it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties
in many ways  ostracism is common for example  But the limit comes when
the enforcement would impose unwanted andor unaccepted onus on a person
_in conflict with secular law_

This is the difference  In a theocracy the requirements of the secular
authorities are by definition congruent with the religious authorities
Outside a theocracy this is not _necessarily_ true  Religious requirements
_may_ coincide or may not  Similiarly religious consequences _may_ or
may not coincide with secular consequences if any

Regards

Dew
 
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 47

In <lsran6INN14a@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric 
Marsh) writes:

>In article <C5HqxJ.JDG@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> lis450bw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (lis450 
Student) writes:
>>Hmmmm.  Define objective morality.  Well, depends upon who you talk to.
>>Some say it means you can't have your hair over your ears, and others say
>>it means Stryper is acceptable.  _I_ would say that general principles
>>of objective morality would be listed in one or two places.

>>Ten Commandments

>>Sayings of Jesus

>>the first depends on whether you trust the Bible, 

>>the second depends on both whether you think Jesus is God, and whether
>>  you think we have accurate copies of the NT.

>Gong!

>Take a moment and look at what you just wrote. First you defined
>an "objective" morality and then you qualified this "objective" morality
>with subjective justifications. Do you see the error in this?

>Sorry, you have just disqualified yourself, but please play again.

>>MAC
>>

>eric

Huh?  Please explain.  Is there a problem because I based my morality on 
something that COULD be wrong?  Gosh, there's a heck of a lot of stuff that I 
believe that COULD be wrong, and that comes from sources that COULD be wrong. 
What do you base your belief on atheism on?  Your knowledge and reasoning? 
COuldn't that be wrong?

MAC
--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 47

In  emarshhernessunEngSunCOM Eric 
Marsh writes

In article  lis450bwux1csouiucedu lis450 
Student writes
Hmmmm  Define objective morality  Well depends upon who you talk to
Some say it means you cant have your hair over your ears and others say
it means Stryper is acceptable  _I_ would say that general principles
of objective morality would be listed in one or two places

Ten Commandments

Sayings of Jesus

the first depends on whether you trust the Bible 

the second depends on both whether you think Jesus is God and whether
  you think we have accurate copies of the NT

Gong

Take a moment and look at what you just wrote First you defined
an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality
with subjective justifications Do you see the error in this

Sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again

MAC


eric

Huh  Please explain  Is there a problem because I based my morality on 
something that COULD be wrong  Gosh theres a heck of a lot of stuff that I 
believe that COULD be wrong and that comes from sources that COULD be wrong 
What do you base your belief on atheism on  Your knowledge and reasoning 
COuldnt that be wrong

MAC


                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se (Thomas Enblom)
Subject: NAVSTAR positions
Reply-To: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: eos8c29.ericsson.se

I've just read Richard Langley's latest "Navstar GPS Constellation Status".

It states that the latest satellite was placed in Orbit Plane Position C-3.
There is already one satellite in that position. I know that it's almost
ten years since that satellite was launched but it's still in operation so
why not use it until it goes off?

Why not instead place the new satellite at B-4 since that position is empty
and by this measure have an almost complete GPS-constellation
(23 out of 24)?

/Thomas
================================================================================
Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden
      
Thomas Enblom, just another employee.     

after prepro  From ThomasEnblomeosericssonse Thomas Enblom
Subject NAVSTAR positions
ReplyTo ThomasEnblomeosericssonse
Organization Ericsson Telecom AB
Lines 16
NntpPostingHost eos8c29ericssonse

Ive just read Richard Langleys latest Navstar GPS Constellation Status

It states that the latest satellite was placed in Orbit Plane Position C3
There is already one satellite in that position I know that its almost
ten years since that satellite was launched but its still in operation so
why not use it until it goes off

Why not instead place the new satellite at B4 since that position is empty
and by this measure have an almost complete GPSconstellation
23 out of 24

Thomas

Ericsson Telecom Stockholm Sweden
      
Thomas Enblom just another employee     

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Lines: 47
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 47

In article <16BB112DFC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
>Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 20:28:27 GMT
>In article <healta.136.734813153@saturn.wwc.edu>
>healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
> 
>(Deletion)
>>You also said,"Why did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did?  Seems a
>>pretty sick way of going about creating a universe..."
>>
>>I'm gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson--forgive me, I used
>>to be a theology major.
>>First of all, I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle--
>>"the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan" (i borrowed a book title).
>>God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
>>decisions.
>(Deletion)
> 
>An universe it has created. By the way, can you tell me why it is less
>tyrannic to let one of one's own creatures do what it likes to others?
>By your definitions, your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
>would happen - including every choice of Satan.
> 
>Can you explain us what Free Will is, and how it goes along with omniscience?
>Didn't your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
>world? Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
>everything was fine for them? That the whole idea comes from the possibility
>to abuse power, something your god introduced according to your description?
> 
> 
>By the way, are you sure that you have read the FAQ? Especially the part
>about preaching?
>   Benedikt

I don't feel that I'm preaching. I'm just trying to answer people's 
questions and talking about my religion, my beliefs.
When it comes to what I post, I don't do it with the intent of converting 
anyone.  I don't expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what I 
say with a grain of salt if they so wish.
I just state what I beleve, they ask me how I believeit and why and we all 
go on. 
If that's preaching, then I'm soory and I'll get off the soapbox.

Tammy

  

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Lines 47
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 47

In article 16BB112DFCI3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 202827 GMT
In article 
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
 
Deletion
You also saidWhy did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did  Seems a
pretty sick way of going about creating a universe

Im gonna respond by giving a small theology lessonforgive me I used
to be a theology major
First of all I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle
the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan i borrowed a book title
God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
decisions
Deletion
 
An universe it has created By the way can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of ones own creatures do what it likes to others
By your definitions your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen  including every choice of Satan
 
Can you explain us what Free Will is and how it goes along with omniscience
Didnt your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description
 
 
By the way are you sure that you have read the FAQ Especially the part
about preaching
   Benedikt

I dont feel that Im preaching Im just trying to answer peoples 
questions and talking about my religion my beliefs
When it comes to what I post I dont do it with the intent of converting 
anyone  I dont expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what I 
say with a grain of salt if they so wish
I just state what I beleve they ask me how I believeit and why and we all 
go on 
If thats preaching then Im soory and Ill get off the soapbox

Tammy

  

preprocess doc  From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 7

In my last post I referred to Michael Adams as "Nick."  Completely my
error; Nick Adams was a film and TV actor from the '50's and early '60's
(remember Johnny Yuma, The Rebel?).  He was from my part of the country,
and Michael's email address of "nmsca[...]" probably helped confuse things
in my mind.  Purely user headspace error on my part.  Sorry.

Doug Loss

after prepro  From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 7

In my last post I referred to Michael Adams as Nick  Completely my
error Nick Adams was a film and TV actor from the 50s and early 60s
remember Johnny Yuma The Rebel  He was from my part of the country
and Michaels email address of nmsca[] probably helped confuse things
in my mind  Purely user headspace error on my part  Sorry

Doug Loss

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 26

In article <1993Apr19.113255.27550@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> >Fred, the problem with such reasoning is that for us non-believers
> >we need a better measurement tool to state that person A is a
> >real Muslim/Christian, while person B is not. As I know there are
> >no such tools, and anyone could believe in a religion, misuse its
> >power and otherwise make bad PR. It clearly shows the sore points
> >with religion -- in other words show me a movement that can't spin
> >off Khomeinis, Stalins, Davidians, Husseins... *).
> 
> I don't think such a system exists.  I think the reason for that is an
> condition known as "free will".  We humans have got it.  Anybody, using
> their free-will, can tell lies and half-truths about *any* system and
> thus abuse it for their own ends.

I don't think such tools exist either. In addition, there's no such
thing as objective information. All together, it looks like religion
and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose.

This all reminds me of Descartes' whispering deamon. You can't trust
anything. So why bother.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 26

In article 1993Apr1911325527550monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
 Fred the problem with such reasoning is that for us nonbelievers
 we need a better measurement tool to state that person A is a
 real MuslimChristian while person B is not As I know there are
 no such tools and anyone could believe in a religion misuse its
 power and otherwise make bad PR It clearly shows the sore points
 with religion  in other words show me a movement that cant spin
 off Khomeinis Stalins Davidians Husseins 
 
 I dont think such a system exists  I think the reason for that is an
 condition known as free will  We humans have got it  Anybody using
 their freewill can tell lies and halftruths about any system and
 thus abuse it for their own ends

I dont think such tools exist either In addition theres no such
thing as objective information All together it looks like religion
and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose

This all reminds me of Descartes whispering deamon You cant trust
anything So why bother

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 187

Bill Conner (bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu) wrote:
 
: There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
: that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
: be understood as processes of nature - exclusively.

This definition does not include all atheists (see the FAQ). However,
I (for one) do think there is no need to invoke any divine or
spiritual explanations. 

It makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood
as natural processes, and to claim that our observations do not
require us to postulate any divine intervention, or anything spiritual,
for that matter. Humans are not omnipotent, and neither is science.
However, science has one advantage theology doesn't: it is self-
correcting, with nature as its judge. 

It is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self-
consistent, simple picture of our universe. Science is no longer
a bunch of separate branches, it is one. From particle physics to
psychology. And no aspect of our life, or our universe, is safe
from its stern and stony eye. Not even our consciousness.

 There is no need
: for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
: no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
: physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
: determnined.

Actually, determinism vs. indeterminism is a philosophical question,
and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow
superdeterministic or not. I think the question does not have
any meaning, as far as individual human beings go. If their apparent
free will is an illusion, it does not appear to be so from their
perspective. Bill, can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free
will or not? 

: This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
: its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
: acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident.

Maybe. Who are we to tell? It seems intelligence is useful - when
during the history of Earth has _one species_ been able to control
one third of the whole biosphere? This can still be a result of 
numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates
and preserves. Even that machinery can be result of the same
principle - only the systems that can start replicating will
survive, those which don't don't make it. (Recommended reading: t.o)

: For an atheist, no
: event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
: value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
: an event can have value. 

From whose perspective? I value events and things subjectively, from
my perspective. Nature does not have values, because it does not have
a perspective - values arise from awareness. If I have a subjective
perspective, it is easy to assume that other people also do, and if
I think about what it would it be like in their position, I will
eventually discover the Golden Rule. Morality is not necessarily
a gift from heavens, in fact, it may be a product of evolution.
Perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity
is helpful, allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect
others who seem to have identity, too. 

Bill, have you ever read Aristotle? Try his Ethica Nikomakhea (sp.)
for starters.

: How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
: the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
: what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
: seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
: have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
: in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
: establish your values.

C.S. Lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why
he abandoned his atheism and became Christian. The argument is
severely flawed.

Some values, such as the Golden Rule, can have a rational basis. Some
others, like the basic idea of wanting to live, has probably its
roots in the way our brains are wired. Lewis ignored the very real
possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic
behaviour, and morality as well. Indeed, as humans evolved better
and better in building and using tools, they also became better
at killing each other. It is a logical necessity that evolution could
only favour those who knew how to use tools, but not against one's
own people.

The Bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early Jews
was not beyond this. A simple set of rules to hold the people
together, under one god. Their god did not care much about people
of other nations. 

At the time of the NT, things were quite different - the Jews
were under rule of an _empire_, and could no longer simply ignore
the Gentiles. A new situation required a new morality, and along
with it a new religion was born. (A mutation in a meme pool.)

: Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
: difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
: otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
: way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
: objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
: - that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
: that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
: no weight in any "absolute" sense.

It looks like you haven't bothered to read philosophy. Whenever there
is an observer, there is a subjective point of view, which may 
value its existence and happiness (even if that were just a result
of some physical event), and other's happiness, too, if the observer
comes to think about it. In an absolutely objective sense, that is,
without any observers or subjects, moral judgments lose their
meaning. 

It is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of
view. This includes gods, too, their values are only _their_ 
personal judgments, not absolute truths, since such truths
do not exist. 

The fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others
is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence
by becoming social beings who can think and value others'
existence.

Morality is not property of humans alone - chimps, dolphins and
many other species show great care for each other. Dolphins have
sometimes saved humans from drowning, a good deed indeed. 

: That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
: or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
: nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
: with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
: objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
: conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
: intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.

The last statement does not logically follow. In fact, there is
every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very
well, and our senses can convey reliable information. Solipsism
is still a logical possibility, but not a very likely one.

You are continuously mixing two different views: the subjective
point of view (which we all share) and an objective point of view,
_which does not exist_. Any observer or thinker, any personal being,
has its own point of view. It does not matter whether this point
of view is a result of some physical events or not, it does not
cease to be subjective. 

From a non-observers non-point of view, values do not exist. Neither
does pain, or pleasure, or beauty, or love. Such things are 
inherently subjective. 

Once again, if god wants wives to submit to their husbands, or even
to make a leap of faith into the unknown, or wants to punish us if
we don't, I disagree with his morals. I do not think my morals come
from any supreme being - to remove my morals means the same than
to make me a zombie, a machine without a single thought. If god
gave us morality to judge, but I disagree with him, it is not my
fault. He is free to replace my morals. I cannot see what is the
point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one's
own and then to get mad at this. 

God must be schizophrenic.

: All of this being so, you have excluded
: yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
: etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
: weight whatsoever.

Neither can the opinion of any god, for that matter. I cannot understand
why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way
less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else.

Bill, take note: Absolute values must be independent of _any_ being,
_including_ gods. If god has a subjective viewpoint, it is his
own point of view, and his morals are his own. 

Petri

--
 ___. .'*''.*        Petri Pihko    kem-pmp@          Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' .    Pihatie 15 C    finou.oulu.fi    Physics is the Rule of
       ' *' .* '*    SF-90650 OULU  kempmp@           the Game.
          *'  *  .*  FINLAND         phoenix.oulu.fi  -> Chemistry is The Game.

after prepro  From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 187

Bill Conner bilokcforumosrheedu wrote
 
 There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
 that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
 be understood as processes of nature  exclusively

This definition does not include all atheists see the FAQ However
I for one do think there is no need to invoke any divine or
spiritual explanations 

It makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood
as natural processes and to claim that our observations do not
require us to postulate any divine intervention or anything spiritual
for that matter Humans are not omnipotent and neither is science
However science has one advantage theology doesnt it is self
correcting with nature as its judge 

It is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self
consistent simple picture of our universe Science is no longer
a bunch of separate branches it is one From particle physics to
psychology And no aspect of our life or our universe is safe
from its stern and stony eye Not even our consciousness

 There is no need
 for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
 no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
 physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
 determnined

Actually determinism vs indeterminism is a philosophical question
and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow
superdeterministic or not I think the question does not have
any meaning as far as individual human beings go If their apparent
free will is an illusion it does not appear to be so from their
perspective Bill can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free
will or not 

 This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
 its products There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
 acquire intelligence its just a happy accident

Maybe Who are we to tell It seems intelligence is useful  when
during the history of Earth has _one species_ been able to control
one third of the whole biosphere This can still be a result of 
numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates
and preserves Even that machinery can be result of the same
principle  only the systems that can start replicating will
survive those which dont dont make it Recommended reading to

 For an atheist no
 event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
 value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about
 an event can have value 

From whose perspective I value events and things subjectively from
my perspective Nature does not have values because it does not have
a perspective  values arise from awareness If I have a subjective
perspective it is easy to assume that other people also do and if
I think about what it would it be like in their position I will
eventually discover the Golden Rule Morality is not necessarily
a gift from heavens in fact it may be a product of evolution
Perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity
is helpful allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect
others who seem to have identity too 

Bill have you ever read Aristotle Try his Ethica Nikomakhea sp
for starters

 How then can an atheist judge value What is the basis for criticizing
 the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God On
 what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned It
 seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you
 have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what
 in nature can serve that purpose What law of nature can you invoke to
 establish your values

CS Lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why
he abandoned his atheism and became Christian The argument is
severely flawed

Some values such as the Golden Rule can have a rational basis Some
others like the basic idea of wanting to live has probably its
roots in the way our brains are wired Lewis ignored the very real
possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic
behaviour and morality as well Indeed as humans evolved better
and better in building and using tools they also became better
at killing each other It is a logical necessity that evolution could
only favour those who knew how to use tools but not against ones
own people

The Bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early Jews
was not beyond this A simple set of rules to hold the people
together under one god Their god did not care much about people
of other nations 

At the time of the NT things were quite different  the Jews
were under rule of an _empire_ and could no longer simply ignore
the Gentiles A new situation required a new morality and along
with it a new religion was born A mutation in a meme pool

 Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what
 difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or
 otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value The only
 way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the
 objection is entirely subjective and that heshe just doesnt like it
  thats it Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
 that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
 no weight in any absolute sense

It looks like you havent bothered to read philosophy Whenever there
is an observer there is a subjective point of view which may 
value its existence and happiness even if that were just a result
of some physical event and others happiness too if the observer
comes to think about it In an absolutely objective sense that is
without any observers or subjects moral judgments lose their
meaning 

It is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of
view This includes gods too their values are only _their_ 
personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths
do not exist 

The fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others
is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence
by becoming social beings who can think and value others
existence

Morality is not property of humans alone  chimps dolphins and
many other species show great care for each other Dolphins have
sometimes saved humans from drowning a good deed indeed 

 That you dont like what God told people to do says nothing about God
 or Gods commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your
 nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
 with a preexisting thoughtset to form that reaction That your
 objections seem well founded is due to the way youve been
 conditioned there is no truth content The whole of your
 intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality

The last statement does not logically follow In fact there is
every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very
well and our senses can convey reliable information Solipsism
is still a logical possibility but not a very likely one

You are continuously mixing two different views the subjective
point of view which we all share and an objective point of view
_which does not exist_ Any observer or thinker any personal being
has its own point of view It does not matter whether this point
of view is a result of some physical events or not it does not
cease to be subjective 

From a nonobservers nonpoint of view values do not exist Neither
does pain or pleasure or beauty or love Such things are 
inherently subjective 

Once again if god wants wives to submit to their husbands or even
to make a leap of faith into the unknown or wants to punish us if
we dont I disagree with his morals I do not think my morals come
from any supreme being  to remove my morals means the same than
to make me a zombie a machine without a single thought If god
gave us morality to judge but I disagree with him it is not my
fault He is free to replace my morals I cannot see what is the
point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with ones
own and then to get mad at this 

God must be schizophrenic

 All of this being so you have excluded
 yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil
 etc and cannot participate Your opinion about the Bible can have no
 weight whatsoever

Neither can the opinion of any god for that matter I cannot understand
why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way
less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else

Bill take note Absolute values must be independent of _any_ being
_including_ gods If god has a subjective viewpoint it is his
own point of view and his morals are his own 

Petri


 ___         Petri Pihko    kempmp          Mathematics is the Truth
___       Pihatie 15 C    finououlufi    Physics is the Rule of
              SF90650 OULU  kempmp           the Game
                FINLAND         phoenixoulufi   Chemistry is The Game

preprocess doc  From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines: 47

west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:

>The pope is jewish.... I guess they're right, and I always thought that
>the thing on his head was just a fancy hat, not a Jewish headpiece (I
>don't remember the name).  It's all so clear now (clear as mud.)

As to what that headpiece is....

(by chort@crl.nmsu.edu)

SOURCE: AP NEWSWIRE

The Vatican, Home Of Genetic Misfits?

Michael  A. Gillow, noted geneticist, has revealed  some unusual  data
after working undercover in  the Vatican for the past 18 years.   "The
Popehat(tm) is actually an advanced bone spur.", reveals Gillow in his
groundshaking report. Gillow, who had  secretly  studied the innermost
workings of the Vatican since returning from Vietnam in a wheel chair,
first approached the scientific community with his  theory in the late
1950's.

"The  whole hat  thing, that was just a cover  up. The  Vatican didn't
want the Catholic Community(tm) to realize  their  leader  was hefting
nearly  8 kilograms of extraneous  bone  tissue on    the  top of  his
skull.", notes Gillow in his report. "There are whole  laboratories in
the  Vatican  that experiment with tissue  transplants and bone marrow
experiments.  What started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400's is now
scientifically engineered and bred for. The whole bone transplant idea
started  in  the  mid   sixties  inspired  by   doctor  Timothy  Leary
transplanting deer  bone cells into small white rats." Gillow is quick
to point  out  the  assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II and the
disappearance of Dr.  Leary from the public eye.

"When it becomes time to replace the pope", says Gillow, "The old pope
and the replacement pope are  locked  in a padded  chamber. They  butt
heads much  like  male yaks  fighting for dominance of the  herd.  The
victor emerges and has  earned the privilege of inseminating the choir
boys."


P.
-- 
 moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l  m o l o n e y  Come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin  and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - GeoffM
 brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza 

after prepro  From pmoloneymathstcdie Paul Moloney
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines 47

westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes

The pope is jewish I guess theyre right and I always thought that
the thing on his head was just a fancy hat not a Jewish headpiece I
dont remember the name  Its all so clear now clear as mud

As to what that headpiece is

by chortcrlnmsuedu

SOURCE AP NEWSWIRE

The Vatican Home Of Genetic Misfits

Michael  A Gillow noted geneticist has revealed  some unusual  data
after working undercover in  the Vatican for the past 18 years   The
Popehattm is actually an advanced bone spur reveals Gillow in his
groundshaking report Gillow who had  secretly  studied the innermost
workings of the Vatican since returning from Vietnam in a wheel chair
first approached the scientific community with his  theory in the late
1950s

The  whole hat  thing that was just a cover  up The  Vatican didnt
want the Catholic Communitytm to realize  their  leader  was hefting
nearly  8 kilograms of extraneous  bone  tissue on    the  top of  his
skull notes Gillow in his report There are whole  laboratories in
the  Vatican  that experiment with tissue  transplants and bone marrow
experiments  What started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400s is now
scientifically engineered and bred for The whole bone transplant idea
started  in  the  mid   sixties  inspired  by   doctor  Timothy  Leary
transplanting deer  bone cells into small white rats Gillow is quick
to point  out  the  assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II and the
disappearance of Dr  Leary from the public eye

When it becomes time to replace the pope says Gillow The old pope
and the replacement pope are  locked  in a padded  chamber They  butt
heads much  like  male yaks  fighting for dominance of the  herd  The
victor emerges and has  earned the privilege of inseminating the choir
boys


P
 
 moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l  m o l o n e y  Come let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin  and apply the wire brush of enlightenment  GeoffM
 brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza 

preprocess doc  From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Guns for Space
Keywords: Sopa Gun, Space Launcer
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 22

In reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid
rockets as payloads.  Thiokol provided me with samples and data on
a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations.  Solid
motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of 
aluminum in the mix.  For example, the Space Shuttle SRBs are 16 percent
Aluminum.  The technique is to use a 'foamed aluminum' structure.
The structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles (an I suspect
some bubbling process is used to form it).  In other words, if you made
a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum, then froze it, this is what
you get.  It forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in
all directions.  The remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into
the voids, and you get aluminum-reinforced solid propellant.  The
foamed-aluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant,
so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain.  The major
improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking, which is the
principal failure mode for solid propellant.

Dani Eder

-- 
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.

after prepro  From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Guns for Space
Keywords Sopa Gun Space Launcer
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 22

In reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid
rockets as payloads  Thiokol provided me with samples and data on
a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations  Solid
motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of 
aluminum in the mix  For example the Space Shuttle SRBs are 16 percent
Aluminum  The technique is to use a foamed aluminum structure
The structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles an I suspect
some bubbling process is used to form it  In other words if you made
a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum then froze it this is what
you get  It forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in
all directions  The remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into
the voids and you get aluminumreinforced solid propellant  The
foamedaluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant
so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain  The major
improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking which is the
principal failure mode for solid propellant

Dani Eder

 
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt

preprocess doc  From: jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein)
Subject: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Drexel University, College of Engineering, Philadelphia, PA
Lines: 8


Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times.

I would appreciate any advice.

Joe Wetstein
jpw@coe.drexel.edu

after prepro  From jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein
Subject Sunrise sunset times
Organization Drexel University College of Engineering Philadelphia PA
Lines 8


Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

I would appreciate any advice

Joe Wetstein
jpwcoedrexeledu

preprocess doc  From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 18

Re: Space billboards

Even easier to implement than writing messages on the Moon, once upon
a time a group of space activists I belonged to in Seattle considered
a "Goodyear Blimp in orbit".  The idea was to use a large structure
that could carry an array of lights like the Goodyear Blimp has.
Placed in a low Earth orbit of high inclination, it could eventually
be seen by almost everyone on Earth.  Only our collective disapproval
of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing
it.  It had quite feasible economics, which I will not post here
because I don't want to encourage the idea (if you want to do such
a thing, go figure it out for yourself).

Dani Eder

-- 
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.

after prepro  From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 18

Re Space billboards

Even easier to implement than writing messages on the Moon once upon
a time a group of space activists I belonged to in Seattle considered
a Goodyear Blimp in orbit  The idea was to use a large structure
that could carry an array of lights like the Goodyear Blimp has
Placed in a low Earth orbit of high inclination it could eventually
be seen by almost everyone on Earth  Only our collective disapproval
of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing
it  It had quite feasible economics which I will not post here
because I dont want to encourage the idea if you want to do such
a thing go figure it out for yourself

Dani Eder

 
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: FAQs
Article-I.D.: mojo.1pst9uINN7tj
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <10505.2BBCB8C3@nss.org>, freed@nss.org (Bev Freed) writes:
>I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly
>.  Every 28-30 days, I get this bloated feeling.

Or just stick 'em on sci.space.news every 28-30 days? 



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re FAQs
ArticleID mojo1pst9uINN7tj
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article 105052BBCB8C3nssorg freednssorg Bev Freed writes
I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly
  Every 2830 days I get this bloated feeling

Or just stick em on scispacenews every 2830 days 



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 20


> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
> > > 
> > > April  1973     83 jupiter radii
> > > August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii

> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. ...

> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.

Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
Same person?
-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

This article is in the public domain.

after prepro  From msbsqsqcom Mark Brader
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization SoftQuad Inc Toronto Canada
Lines 20


   Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
   
   April  1973     83 jupiter radii
   August 1970     3 jupiter radii

  Where 1 Jupiter radius  71000 km  44000 mi  00005 AU 

 Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language

Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
 
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto	Information  We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom				 The Prisoner

This article is in the public domain

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 18

In article <C5Jxru.2t8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>What do you base your belief on atheism on?  Your knowledge and reasoning? 
>COuldn't that be wrong?
>

  Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance.  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god.  Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
  because of their pride" mistake.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 18

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
What do you base your belief on atheism on  Your knowledge and reasoning 
COuldnt that be wrong


  Actually my atheism is based on ignorance  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god  Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
  because of their pride mistake


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: drunen@nucleus.ps.uci.edu (Eric Van Drunen)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Nntp-Posting-Host: nucleus.ps.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 30

Actually, they are legal! I not familiar with the ad you are speaking of
but knowing Popular Science it is probably on the fringe.  However, you
may be speaking of "Public Missle, Inc.", which is a legitimate company
that has been around for a while.

Due to advances in composite fuels, engines are now available for model
rockets using similar composites to SRB fuel, roughly 3 times more 
powerful than black powder motors.  They are even available in a reloadable
form, i.e. aluminum casing, end casings, o-rings (!).  The engines range
from D all the way to M in common manufacture, N and O I've heard of
used at special occasions.

To be a model rocket, however, the rocket can't contain any metal 
structural parts, amongst other requirements.  I've never heard of a
model rocket doing 50,000.  I have heard of > 20,000 foot flights.
These require FAA waivers (of course!).  There are a few large national
launches (LDRS, FireBALLS), at which you can see many > K sized engine
flights.  Actually, using a > G engine constitutes the area of "High
Power Rocketry", which is seperate from normal model rocketry.  Purchase
of engines like I have been describing require membership in the National
Association of Rocketry, the Tripoli Rocketry Assoc., or you have to
be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry.

Amatuer rocketry is another area.  I'm not really familiar with this,
but it is an area where metal parts are allowed, along with liquid fuels
and what not.  I don't know what kind of regulations are involved, but
I'm sure they are numerous.

High power rocketry is very exciting!  If you are interested or have 
more questions, there is a newsgroup rec.model.rockets.

after prepro  From drunennucleuspsuciedu Eric Van Drunen
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
NntpPostingHost nucleuspsuciedu
Organization University of California Irvine
Lines 30

Actually they are legal I not familiar with the ad you are speaking of
but knowing Popular Science it is probably on the fringe  However you
may be speaking of Public Missle Inc which is a legitimate company
that has been around for a while

Due to advances in composite fuels engines are now available for model
rockets using similar composites to SRB fuel roughly 3 times more 
powerful than black powder motors  They are even available in a reloadable
form ie aluminum casing end casings orings   The engines range
from D all the way to M in common manufacture N and O Ive heard of
used at special occasions

To be a model rocket however the rocket cant contain any metal 
structural parts amongst other requirements  Ive never heard of a
model rocket doing 50000  I have heard of  20000 foot flights
These require FAA waivers of course  There are a few large national
launches LDRS FireBALLS at which you can see many  K sized engine
flights  Actually using a  G engine constitutes the area of High
Power Rocketry which is seperate from normal model rocketry  Purchase
of engines like I have been describing require membership in the National
Association of Rocketry the Tripoli Rocketry Assoc or you have to
be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry

Amatuer rocketry is another area  Im not really familiar with this
but it is an area where metal parts are allowed along with liquid fuels
and what not  I dont know what kind of regulations are involved but
Im sure they are numerous

High power rocketry is very exciting  If you are interested or have 
more questions there is a newsgroup recmodelrockets

preprocess doc  From: Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado)
Subject: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration.  May 7  Crystal City
Lines: 25

Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org

 > From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
 >
 > In article <1993Apr19.230236.18227@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>,
 > daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis) writes:
 > > |> AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration
 > confernce> |> May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the
 > auspices of AIAA.
 >
 > Thanks for typing that in, Steven.
 >
 > I hope you decide to go, Pat.  The Net can use some eyes
 > and ears there...

I plan to go.  It's about 30 minutes away from my home.
I can report on some of it (from my perspective ...)
Anyone else on sci.space going to be there?  If so, send me
netmail.  Maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly...
I'll maintain a list of who's going.

mark.prado@permanet.org

 * Origin: Just send it to bill.clinton@permanet.org
(1:109/349.2)

after prepro  From MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado
Subject Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration  May 7  Crystal City
Lines 25

Reply address markpradopermanetorg

  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
 
  In article 1993Apr1923023618227aiojscnasagov
  davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis writes
    AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration
  confernce  May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the
  auspices of AIAA
 
  Thanks for typing that in Steven
 
  I hope you decide to go Pat  The Net can use some eyes
  and ears there

I plan to go  Its about 30 minutes away from my home
I can report on some of it from my perspective 
Anyone else on scispace going to be there  If so send me
netmail  Maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly
Ill maintain a list of whos going

markpradopermanetorg

  Origin Just send it to billclintonpermanetorg
11093492

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 32


Maddi Hausmann chirps:

>timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes: >

>>First of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy.  Why not try to be more >honest
>>and include my sentence afterwards that

>Honest, it just ended like that, I swear!

That's nice.

>Hmmmm...I recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and
>rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls
>people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr

You forgot the third equality...whirrr...click...whirrr...see below...

>Whirr click whirr...Frank O'Dwyer might also be contained
>in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr

>"Killfile" Keith Allen Schneider = Frank "Closet Theist" O'Dwyer = ...

= Maddi "The Mad Sound-O-Geek" Hausmann

...whirrr...click...whirrr

--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 32


Maddi Hausmann chirps

timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes 

First of all you seem to be a reasonable guy  Why not try to be more honest
and include my sentence afterwards that

Honest it just ended like that I swear

Thats nice

HmmmmI recognize the warning signsalternating polite and
rudecoming into newsgroup with huge chip on shouldercalls
people names and then makes nicewhirrrclickwhirrr

You forgot the third equalitywhirrrclickwhirrrsee below

Whirr click whirrFrank ODwyer might also be contained
in that shellpop stack to determinewhirrclickwhirr

Killfile Keith Allen Schneider  Frank Closet Theist ODwyer  

 Maddi The Mad SoundOGeek Hausmann

whirrrclickwhirrr


Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear Mr. Theist
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 31
	<1993Apr5.024150.10193@wam.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po2.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.024150.10193@wam.umd.edu>

west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> means to me.  The full quote (Michael Crichton, _Jurrasic_Park_) was 
> something like "The earth has existed quite contently for billions of 
> years.  We have been here but for the blink of an eye, and if we were gone
> tomorrow, the earth would not miss us.".  I remember this quote to keep
> myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we
> are masters of this planet.
  
Cool quote.

> The earth doesn't need saving, it's existed quite happily with-
> out us, we are the ones who need saving.

Better watch it.  The theists will jump on you for that... :-)

> Brian West.
> --
> THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE            *    -"To the Earth, we have been
> THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE            *     here but for the blink of an
> OK, SO IT'S A SIG FILE            *     eye, if we were gone tomorrow, 
> posted by west@wam.umd.edu        *     we would not be missed."-  
> who doesn't care who knows it.    *        (Jurassic Park) 
> ** DICLAIMER: I said this, I meant this, nobody made me do it.**

Nanci

.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Dear Mr Theist
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 31
	1993Apr502415010193wamumdedu
NNTPPostingHost po2andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr502415010193wamumdedu

westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
 means to me  The full quote Michael Crichton _Jurrasic_Park_ was 
 something like The earth has existed quite contently for billions of 
 years  We have been here but for the blink of an eye and if we were gone
 tomorrow the earth would not miss us  I remember this quote to keep
 myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we
 are masters of this planet
  
Cool quote

 The earth doesnt need saving its existed quite happily with
 out us we are the ones who need saving

Better watch it  The theists will jump on you for that 

 Brian West
 
 THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE                To the Earth we have been
 THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE                 here but for the blink of an
 OK SO ITS A SIG FILE                 eye if we were gone tomorrow 
 posted by westwamumdedu             we would not be missed  
 who doesnt care who knows it            Jurassic Park 
  DICLAIMER I said this I meant this nobody made me do it

Nanci


If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others


preprocess doc  From: nether@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Joel C Belog)
Subject: Space Shuttle information wanted
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu



Hello everyone,

	I was hoping someone could help me out.  I'm writing a program
	for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low
	orbit.  There are two things I'd like to know, First, how much 
	time elapses between launch and the pitch over. Second, what is
	the cross-sectional area of the shuttle, srb's, and ext. tank.

	Thanks for any information, post or e-mail.

	Joel Belog
	nether@wpi.wpi.edu
	

after prepro  From netherbigwpiWPIEDU Joel C Belog
Subject Space Shuttle information wanted
Organization Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost bigwpiwpiedu



Hello everyone

	I was hoping someone could help me out  Im writing a program
	for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low
	orbit  There are two things Id like to know First how much 
	time elapses between launch and the pitch over Second what is
	the crosssectional area of the shuttle srbs and ext tank

	Thanks for any information post or email

	Joel Belog
	netherwpiwpiedu
	

preprocess doc  From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
Lines: 51
In-Reply-To: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:32:04 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <C5L1tG.K5q@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu writes:

> If some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok I 
> would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong.  My 
> basis of morality is not on societal norms, or on current legalities.  My
> basis is, surprise surprise, on both the Bible and on inherent moral
> abhorrences,

      AH! But what, exactly, is "inherently abhorrent" and WHY is it so?
What you're saying is, in effect, "I think some things are repulsive,
and I know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me, so they
should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever, period".

      Which in and of itself is nice enough; to some extent I agree with
you. But I do _not_ agree that things are 'inherently' or 'absolutely'
immoral; they are labeled 'immoral' each for its own good reason, and if
the reason can even theoretically change, then so can the label.

[...]
> Yes, that's vague, and the only way I know off the top of my head to
> defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made. Yes, that falls
> into the trap of creation,

      No it doesn't. Humans are to some extent similar, because we all
belong to the same species; that that species has evolved is another
story altogether. To a certain extent evolution can even lend credence
to moral absolutism (of a flavour).

[...]
> My arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust, goodness, 
> love, respect, courage, and honesty in any society rather than deceipt,
> hatred, disrespect, "cowardness", and dishonesty.

      You're saying morality is what'll keep society alive and kicking.
It is, I think, up to a point; but societies are not all alike, and
neither are their moralities.

> No, I haven't been everywhere and 
> seen everyone, but, according to my thesis, I don't have to, since I hold that
> we were all created similarly.

      Similar != identical.

> If that makes an unfalsifiable thesis, just say
> so, and I'll both work out what I can and punt to fellow theists.

      No, it's falsifiable through finding someoe who was "created
different", whatever that might be in the "real" world.

-- 
  Disclaimer?   "It's great to be young and insane!"

after prepro  From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
Lines 51
InReplyTo cobbalexialisuiucedus message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 153204 GMT
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124

In  cobbalexialisuiucedu writes

 If some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok I 
 would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong  My 
 basis of morality is not on societal norms or on current legalities  My
 basis is surprise surprise on both the Bible and on inherent moral
 abhorrences

      AH But what exactly is inherently abhorrent and WHY is it so
What youre saying is in effect I think some things are repulsive
and I know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me so they
should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period

      Which in and of itself is nice enough to some extent I agree with
you But I do _not_ agree that things are inherently or absolutely
immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and if
the reason can even theoretically change then so can the label

[]
 Yes thats vague and the only way I know off the top of my head to
 defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made Yes that falls
 into the trap of creation

      No it doesnt Humans are to some extent similar because we all
belong to the same species that that species has evolved is another
story altogether To a certain extent evolution can even lend credence
to moral absolutism of a flavour

[]
 My arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust goodness 
 love respect courage and honesty in any society rather than deceipt
 hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty

      Youre saying morality is whatll keep society alive and kicking
It is I think up to a point but societies are not all alike and
neither are their moralities

 No I havent been everywhere and 
 seen everyone but according to my thesis I dont have to since I hold that
 we were all created similarly

      Similar  identical

 If that makes an unfalsifiable thesis just say
 so and Ill both work out what I can and punt to fellow theists

      No its falsifiable through finding someoe who was created
different whatever that might be in the real world

 
  Disclaimer   Its great to be young and insane

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>So how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings?
>Your theory would state that the more the human is detached from 
>primitive behavior, the more violent and non-moralistic the human
>becomes (please correct me if my understanding was wrong). So
>you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people
>from the roof of a campus. Could you explain how your 'theory'
>explains such a situation?

Madmen are mad.  Do we try to explain the output from a broken computer?
I think not.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re So how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings
Your theory would state that the more the human is detached from 
primitive behavior the more violent and nonmoralistic the human
becomes please correct me if my understanding was wrong So
you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people
from the roof of a campus Could you explain how your theory
explains such a situation

Madmen are mad  Do we try to explain the output from a broken computer
I think not

keith

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 67
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr15.072429.10206@sol.UVic.CA>, rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross  Borden) writes:
> In article <734850108.F00002@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>>
>>One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how
>>many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are
>>these individuals?
>>
> 	Quick!  Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:
> 
> 			"Hey, I read sci.space!"
> 
> Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
> (This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
> the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")

A practical suggestion, to be sure, but one could *also* peek into
news.lists, where Brian Reid has posted "USENET Readership report for
Mar 93." Another posting called "USENET READERSHIP SUMMARY REPORT FOR
MAR 93" gives the methodology and caveats of Reid's survey.  (These
postings failed to appear for a while-- I wonder why?-- but they are
now back.)

Reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers...
Sorry, Mark.

I suspect Mark, dangling out there on Fidonet, may not get news.lists
so I've mailed him copies of these reports.

The bottom line?

        +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
        |     +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
        |     |     +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
        |     |     |      +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
        |     |     |      |      +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month)
        |     |     |      |      |      +-- Crossposting percentage
        |     |     |      |      |      |    +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr
        |     |     |      |      |      |    |      +-- Share: % of newsrders
        |     |     |      |      |      |    |      |   who read this group.
        V     V     V      V      V      V    V      V
  88  62000  1493   80%  1958  4283.9    19%  0.10   2.9%  sci.space 

The first figure indicates that sci.space ranks 88th among most-read
newsgroups.

I've been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic
and readership.  You might be entertained to see this.

Oct 91   55  71000  1387   84%   718  1865.2    21%  0.04   4.2%  sci.space
Mar 92   43  85000  1741   82%  1207  2727.2    13%  0.06   4.1%  sci.space
Jul 92   48  94000  1550   80%  1044  2448.3    12%  0.04   3.8%  sci.space
May 92   45  94000  2023   82%   834  1744.8    13%  0.04   4.1%  sci.space
(some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here)
Sep 92   45  51000  1690   80%  1420  3541.2    16%  0.11   3.6%  sci.space 
Nov 92   78  47000  1372   81%  1220  2633.2    17%  0.08   2.8%  sci.space 
(revision in ranking groups happens here(?))
Mar 93   88  62000  1493   80%  1958  4283.9    19%  0.10   2.9%  sci.space 

Possibly old Usenet hands could give me some more background on how to
interpret these figures, glitches, or the history of Reid's reporting
effort.  Take it to e-mail-- it doesn't belong in sci.space.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | There grow roses and other posies
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | Fertilized by Clementine.
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  |

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 67
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1993Apr1507242910206solUVicCA rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross  Borden writes
 In article 734850108F00002permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes

One could go on and on and on here but I wonder  how
many people read scispace and of what powerinfluence are
these individuals

 	Quick  Everyone who sees this post a reply that says
 
 			Hey I read scispace
 
 Then we can count them and find out how many there are 
 This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
 the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways

A practical suggestion to be sure but one could also peek into
newslists where Brian Reid has posted USENET Readership report for
Mar 93 Another posting called USENET READERSHIP SUMMARY REPORT FOR
MAR 93 gives the methodology and caveats of Reids survey  These
postings failed to appear for a while I wonder why but they are
now back

Reid alas gives us no measure of the powerinfluence of readers
Sorry Mark

I suspect Mark dangling out there on Fidonet may not get newslists
so Ive mailed him copies of these reports

The bottom line

         Estimated total number of people who read the group worldwide
              Actual number of readers in sampled population
                   Propagation how many sites receive this group at all
                         Recent traffic messages per month
                               Recent traffic kilobytes per month
                                     Crossposting percentage
                                         Cost ratio USmonthrdr
                                               Share  of newsrders
                                                 who read this group
        V     V     V      V      V      V    V      V
  88  62000  1493   80  1958  42839    19  010   29  scispace 

The first figure indicates that scispace ranks 88th among mostread
newsgroups

Ive been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic
and readership  You might be entertained to see this

Oct 91   55  71000  1387   84   718  18652    21  004   42  scispace
Mar 92   43  85000  1741   82  1207  27272    13  006   41  scispace
Jul 92   48  94000  1550   80  1044  24483    12  004   38  scispace
May 92   45  94000  2023   82   834  17448    13  004   41  scispace
some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here
Sep 92   45  51000  1690   80  1420  35412    16  011   36  scispace 
Nov 92   78  47000  1372   81  1220  26332    17  008   28  scispace 
revision in ranking groups happens here
Mar 93   88  62000  1493   80  1958  42839    19  010   29  scispace 

Possibly old Usenet hands could give me some more background on how to
interpret these figures glitches or the history of Reids reporting
effort  Take it to email it doesnt belong in scispace

Bill Higgins Beam Jockey               In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory   Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet           HIGGINSFNALBITNET   There grow roses and other posies
Internet       HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   Fertilized by Clementine
SPANHepnet           43011HIGGINS  

preprocess doc  From: MAILRP%ESA.BITNET@vm.gmd.de
Subject: message from Space Digest
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 58





Joint Press release ESA/UN No 18-93
Paris, 19 April 1993

UN/ESA joint training course on satellite applications
to be held in Italy, 19-30 April

The United Nations and the European Space Agency (ESA)
are jointly organising a training course on the applications of
satellite data gathered by the European Remote Sensing
Satellite (ERS-1), to be held in Frascati, Italy, from 19 to 30
April. The training course will discuss the applications of
satellite data concerning natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment.

The training course, organised for the benefit of francophone
African experts, will be hosted by ESRIN, the European Space
Agency's establishment in Frascati, which is responsible for
coordination with the users of data from ESA's remote sensing
satellite. Twenty-four experts in the field of remote sensing,
selected from 19 francophone countries from northern, western
and central Africa, and three regional African centres, will
attend the two-week session. The course will focus on remote
sensing techniques and data applications, particularly ERS-1
data.

The ERS-1 satellite, developed by ESA and launched in 1991
with the European Ariane launcher, carries an advanced radar
instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing
missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year
2000. The aim of the training course is to increase the
potential of experts using the practical applications of radar
remote sensing systems to natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment, with particular emphasis on applications
to geology and mineral prospecting, oceanography and near-
coastal areas, agriculture, forestry and meteorology.

The education and practical training programme was
developed jointly by the United Nations and ESA. The
facilities and the technical support, as well as lecturers and
information documents for the training course, will be
provided by the Agency. Lecturers at the training course will
include high-level experts from other European and African
organisations active in remote sensing applications. Funds for
the training course are being provided by the United Nations



Trust Fund for New and Renewable Sources of Energy; the
primary contributor to that Fund is the Government of Italy.

A similar training course is being planned for Latin American
experts.



after prepro  From MAILRPESABITNETvmgmdde
Subject message from Space Digest
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 58





Joint Press release ESAUN No 1893
Paris 19 April 1993

UNESA joint training course on satellite applications
to be held in Italy 1930 April

The United Nations and the European Space Agency ESA
are jointly organising a training course on the applications of
satellite data gathered by the European Remote Sensing
Satellite ERS1 to be held in Frascati Italy from 19 to 30
April The training course will discuss the applications of
satellite data concerning natural resources renewable energy
and the environment

The training course organised for the benefit of francophone
African experts will be hosted by ESRIN the European Space
Agencys establishment in Frascati which is responsible for
coordination with the users of data from ESAs remote sensing
satellite Twentyfour experts in the field of remote sensing
selected from 19 francophone countries from northern western
and central Africa and three regional African centres will
attend the twoweek session The course will focus on remote
sensing techniques and data applications particularly ERS1
data

The ERS1 satellite developed by ESA and launched in 1991
with the European Ariane launcher carries an advanced radar
instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing
missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year
2000 The aim of the training course is to increase the
potential of experts using the practical applications of radar
remote sensing systems to natural resources renewable energy
and the environment with particular emphasis on applications
to geology and mineral prospecting oceanography and near
coastal areas agriculture forestry and meteorology

The education and practical training programme was
developed jointly by the United Nations and ESA The
facilities and the technical support as well as lecturers and
information documents for the training course will be
provided by the Agency Lecturers at the training course will
include highlevel experts from other European and African
organisations active in remote sensing applications Funds for
the training course are being provided by the United Nations



Trust Fund for New and Renewable Sources of Energy the
primary contributor to that Fund is the Government of Italy

A similar training course is being planned for Latin American
experts



preprocess doc  From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Distribution: sci
Lines: 18

In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>There has been something bothering me while watching
>NASA Select for a while.  Well, I should'nt say
>bothering, maybe wondering would be better.  When
>they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
>exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
>"Clear caution & warning memory.  Verify no unexpected
>errors. ...".  I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>be.  Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but


In pure speculation, I would guess cautions based on hazardous
pre-launch ops would qualify.  Something like "Caution:  SRBs
have just been armed."  

It does raise an interesting question as to how hard it is to 
pick out an Expected Error from an Unexpected Error in the heat
of the moment. 

after prepro  From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1  
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center  Robotics Lab
Distribution sci
Lines 18

In article  ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while  Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better  When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution  warning memory  Verify no unexpected
errors   I am wondering what an expected error might
be  Sorry if this is a really dumb question but


In pure speculation I would guess cautions based on hazardous
prelaunch ops would qualify  Something like Caution  SRBs
have just been armed  

It does raise an interesting question as to how hard it is to 
pick out an Expected Error from an Unexpected Error in the heat
of the moment 

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 15

keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>>instead.  The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>>Why wait until they commit the crime?  Why not implant such devices in
>>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?
> 
> Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning.  You are proposing to punish people
> *before* they commit a crime?  What justification do you have for this?

Look up "irony", Keith.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re mathew  writes
Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead  The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime  Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists
 
 Sorry I dont follow your reasoning  You are proposing to punish people
 before they commit a crime  What justification do you have for this

Look up irony Keith


mathew

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 24

Kent Sandvik (sandvik@newton.apple.com) wrote:


: > This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
: > so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
: > social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
: > immigrants for example.  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
: > Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
: > they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
: > TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary.  Seems a little weak, but as long as it
: > doesn't hurt anybody...

: The social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority
: of passive Christians in our world today. In the case of early Christianity
: the promise of a heavenly afterlife, independent of your social status,
: was also a very promising gift (reason slaves and non-Romans accepted
: the religion very rapidly).

If this is a hypothetical proposition, you should say so, if it's
fact, you should cite your sources. If all this is the amateur
sociologist sub-branch of a.a however, it would suffice to alert the
unwary that you are just screwing around ...

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re thoughts on christians
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 24

Kent Sandvik sandviknewtonapplecom wrote


  This is a good point but I think average people do not take up Christianity
  so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their
  social life or to get more involved with American culture if they are kids of
  immigrants for example  Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
  Western World in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if
  they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong
  TOO new or TOO out of the ordinary  Seems a little weak but as long as it
  doesnt hurt anybody

 The social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority
 of passive Christians in our world today In the case of early Christianity
 the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status
 was also a very promising gift reason slaves and nonRomans accepted
 the religion very rapidly

If this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if its
fact you should cite your sources If all this is the amateur
sociologist subbranch of aa however it would suffice to alert the
unwary that you are just screwing around 

Bill

preprocess doc  From: msmilor@skat.usc.edu (Mark Smilor)
Subject: Summer Internships
Article-I.D.: skat.1psaifINNfc5
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu


	
        Hi Folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask, but I am
searching for a summer internship in engineering.  I will be graduating in early
 May with a B.S. in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my Masters this Fall
.Does anyone know of anything that is available, I am in the process of applyi
ng to some of the larger companies (ie. MacDac, Martin Marietta, Lockheed.  If a
nyone knows of anything I would appreciate it if you could mail it to me.

Thanks in advance

Mark Smilor
msmilor@skat.usc.edu
or
smilor@aludra.usc.edu

after prepro  From msmilorskatuscedu Mark Smilor
Subject Summer Internships
ArticleID skat1psaifINNfc5
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost skatuscedu


	
        Hi Folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask but I am
searching for a summer internship in engineering  I will be graduating in early
 May with a BS in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my Masters this Fall
Does anyone know of anything that is available I am in the process of applyi
ng to some of the larger companies ie MacDac Martin Marietta Lockheed  If a
nyone knows of anything I would appreciate it if you could mail it to me

Thanks in advance

Mark Smilor
msmilorskatuscedu
or
smiloraludrauscedu

preprocess doc  From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
In-Reply-To: 18084TM@msu.edu's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 21:37:55 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution: sci
Lines: 50

In article <C5sy4s.4x2.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:

   Nick Haines sez;
   >(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
   >maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).

   Level 5?  Out of how many?  What are the different levels?  I've never
   heard of this rating system.  Anyone care to clue me in?

This is a rating system used by ARPA and other organisations to
measure the maturity of a `software process' i.e. the entire process
by which software gets designed, written, tested, delivered, supported
etc.

See `Managing the Software Process', by Watts S. Humphrey, Addison
Wesley 1989. An excellent software engineering text. The 5 levels of
software process maturity are:

1. Initial
2. Repeatable
3. Defined
4. Managed
5. Optimizing

The levels are approximately characterized as follows:

1. no statistically software process control. Have no statistical
   basis for estimating how large software will be, how long it will
   take to produce, how expensive it will be, or how reliable it will
   be.  Most software production is at this level.

2. stable process with statistical controls, rigorous project
   management; having done something once, can do it again. Projects
   are planned in detail, and there is software configuration
   management and quality assurance.

3. The process is defined and understood, implementation is
   consistent. This includes things like software inspection, a
   rigorous software testing framework, more configuration management,
   and typically a `software engineering process group' within the
   project.

4. Statistical information on the software is systematically gathered
   and analysed, and the process is controlled on the basis of this
   information. Software quality is measured and has goals.

5. Defects are prevented, the process is automated, software contracts
   are effective and certified.

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu

after prepro  From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Level 5
InReplyTo 18084TMmsuedus message of Tue 20 Apr 1993 213755 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution sci
Lines 50

In article  18084TMmsuedu Tom writes

   Nick Haines sez
   given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
   maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case

   Level 5  Out of how many  What are the different levels  Ive never
   heard of this rating system  Anyone care to clue me in

This is a rating system used by ARPA and other organisations to
measure the maturity of a `software process ie the entire process
by which software gets designed written tested delivered supported
etc

See `Managing the Software Process by Watts S Humphrey Addison
Wesley 1989 An excellent software engineering text The 5 levels of
software process maturity are

1 Initial
2 Repeatable
3 Defined
4 Managed
5 Optimizing

The levels are approximately characterized as follows

1 no statistically software process control Have no statistical
   basis for estimating how large software will be how long it will
   take to produce how expensive it will be or how reliable it will
   be  Most software production is at this level

2 stable process with statistical controls rigorous project
   management having done something once can do it again Projects
   are planned in detail and there is software configuration
   management and quality assurance

3 The process is defined and understood implementation is
   consistent This includes things like software inspection a
   rigorous software testing framework more configuration management
   and typically a `software engineering process group within the
   project

4 Statistical information on the software is systematically gathered
   and analysed and the process is controlled on the basis of this
   information Software quality is measured and has goals

5 Defects are prevented the process is automated software contracts
   are effective and certified

Nick Haines nickhcmuedu

preprocess doc  From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Space class for teachers near Chicago
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: usa
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 59

I am posting this for a friend without internet access. Please inquire
to the phone number and address listed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier"
Sponsored by the Planetary Studies Foundation

The Planetary Studies Foundation is sponsoring a one week class for
teachers called "Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier." The class will be
held at the Sheraton Suites in Elk Grove, Illinois from June 14 through
June 18. Participants who complete the program can earn two semester
hours of graduate credit from Aurora College. Please note that while the
class is intended for teachers, it is not restricted to teachers.

The class, which is being cosponsored by the United States Space
Foundation, will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool
to get students excited about learning and interested in science.

Classroom topics to be covered by the class include:
     > Living in Space
     > The Space Shuttle
     > The Space Station
     > NASA Spinoffs that Benefit Society
     > Principles of Astrodynamics/Aeronautics
     > The Solar System

There will also be simulated Zero-G training in an underwater space
station simulation, model rocket launches, observing sessions at the
Harper College Observatory, and field trips to the Adler Planetarium and
the Museum of Science and Industry.

Featured speakers include Jerry Brown of the Colorado based United
States Space Foundation and Debbie Brown of the NASA Lewis Research
Center in Cleveland, Ohio. Additional instructors will be provided by
the Planetary Studies Foundation.

The social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring
Space Shuttle Payload Specialist Byron Lichtenberg, currently President
of Payload Systems, Inc. Lichtenberg was a member of the crew of STS-9
which flew in November 1983. The banquet is scheduled for Thursday, June
17.

The registration fee includes transportation for field trips, materials,
continental breakfasts, lunches, and the special dinner banquet. Guest
tickets for the dinner banquet are also available.  There is an
additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit. For any
additional information about the class, contact the Science Learning
Center at (708) 359-7913.

Or write to:
Planetary Studies Foundation
1520 W. Algonquin Rd.
Palatine, IL 60067

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL

after prepro  From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Space class for teachers near Chicago
Organization Motorola
Distribution usa
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 59

I am posting this for a friend without internet access Please inquire
to the phone number and address listed


Space Teachings Newest Frontier
Sponsored by the Planetary Studies Foundation

The Planetary Studies Foundation is sponsoring a one week class for
teachers called Space Teachings Newest Frontier The class will be
held at the Sheraton Suites in Elk Grove Illinois from June 14 through
June 18 Participants who complete the program can earn two semester
hours of graduate credit from Aurora College Please note that while the
class is intended for teachers it is not restricted to teachers

The class which is being cosponsored by the United States Space
Foundation will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool
to get students excited about learning and interested in science

Classroom topics to be covered by the class include
      Living in Space
      The Space Shuttle
      The Space Station
      NASA Spinoffs that Benefit Society
      Principles of AstrodynamicsAeronautics
      The Solar System

There will also be simulated ZeroG training in an underwater space
station simulation model rocket launches observing sessions at the
Harper College Observatory and field trips to the Adler Planetarium and
the Museum of Science and Industry

Featured speakers include Jerry Brown of the Colorado based United
States Space Foundation and Debbie Brown of the NASA Lewis Research
Center in Cleveland Ohio Additional instructors will be provided by
the Planetary Studies Foundation

The social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring
Space Shuttle Payload Specialist Byron Lichtenberg currently President
of Payload Systems Inc Lichtenberg was a member of the crew of STS9
which flew in November 1983 The banquet is scheduled for Thursday June
17

The registration fee includes transportation for field trips materials
continental breakfasts lunches and the special dinner banquet Guest
tickets for the dinner banquet are also available  There is an
additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit For any
additional information about the class contact the Science Learning
Center at 708 3597913

Or write to
Planetary Studies Foundation
1520 W Algonquin Rd
Palatine IL 60067



Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL

preprocess doc  From: dfegan@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Doug Egan)
Subject: Re: *** HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES ***
Organization: LESC
Lines: 19

In <1993Apr20.041300.21721@ncsu.edu> jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:

>    I'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following
>companies.  Specifically, I need addresses for their personnel
>offices or like bureau.  The companies are:

>	- Space Industries, Inc.  (Somewhere in Houston)
          101 Courageous Dr. 
          Leage City, TX  77573
          Phone: (713) 538-6000   

         
Good Luck!
Doug 
--
 Doug Egan                                  "It's not what you got -
 Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Co.       It's what you give."          
 Houston, TX                                                  -Tesla      
 ***** email:  egan@blkbox.com  *****                                    

after prepro  From dfeganlescssejscnasagov Doug Egan
Subject Re  HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES 
Organization LESC
Lines 19

In 1993Apr2004130021721ncsuedu jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes

    Im trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies  Specifically I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau  The companies are

	 Space Industries Inc  Somewhere in Houston
          101 Courageous Dr 
          Leage City TX  77573
          Phone 713 5386000   

         
Good Luck
Doug 

 Doug Egan                                  Its not what you got 
 Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Co       Its what you give          
 Houston TX                                                  Tesla      
  email  eganblkboxcom                                      

preprocess doc  From: Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7F6002BF6011C1D@rs14-annex3.sfu.ca>
X-Xxdate: Sat, 17 Apr 93 02:42:51 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 11

In article <C5nGxq.663@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer,
henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
>The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
>When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
>the film continuously repeating.

Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time.
Once again netnews has enriched my life.

Leigh

after prepro  From Leigh Palmer 
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
XXxmessageId 
XXxdate Sat 17 Apr 93 024251 GMT
Organization Simon Fraser University
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 11

In article  Henry Spencer
henryzootorontoedu writes
The National Air  Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating

Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife who was also working at General Atomic at the time
Once again netnews has enriched my life

Leigh

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 43

yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:

>Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
>Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
>Engineer" position?  Is this just a meaningless administrative
>shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?

>In my opinion, this seems like a Bad Thing, at least on the surface.
>Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
>things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
>getting things done faster, better, and cheaper.  It's unclear to me
>whether he will be able to do this at his new position.

>Does anyone know what his new duties will be?

First I've heard of it. Offhand:

Griffin is no longer an "office" head, so that's bad.

On the other hand:

Regress seemed to think: we can't fund anything by Griffin, because
that would mean (and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the
$ 400 billion mars mission to prove it) that we would be buying into a
mission to Mars that would cost 400 billion. Therefore there will be
no Artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera...

They were killing Griffin's main program simply because some sycophants
somewhere had Congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into
the same old stuff. Sorta like not giving aid to Yeltsin because he's
a communist hardliner.

At least now the sort of reforms Griffin was trying to bring forward
won't be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded
ghetto. That Griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very
good. And if he brings something up, noone can say "why don't you go
back to the OSE where you belong" (and where he couldn't even get money
for design studies).
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Griffin  Office of Exploration RIP
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 43

yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes

Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position  Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI

In my opinion this seems like a Bad Thing at least on the surface
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster better and cheaper  Its unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position

Does anyone know what his new duties will be

First Ive heard of it Offhand

Griffin is no longer an office head so thats bad

On the other hand

Regress seemed to think we cant fund anything by Griffin because
that would mean and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the
 400 billion mars mission to prove it that we would be buying into a
mission to Mars that would cost 400 billion Therefore there will be
no Artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera

They were killing Griffins main program simply because some sycophants
somewhere had Congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into
the same old stuff Sorta like not giving aid to Yeltsin because hes
a communist hardliner

At least now the sort of reforms Griffin was trying to bring forward
wont be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded
ghetto That Griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very
good And if he brings something up noone can say why dont you go
back to the OSE where you belong and where he couldnt even get money
for design studies

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 23

In article <1993Apr14.175557.20296@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:

>Sorry to insult your homestate, but coming from where I do, Wisconsin
>is _very_ backwards.  I was never able to understand that people actually
>held such bigoted and backwards views until I came here.

I have never been to Wisconsin, though I have been to
neighbor Minnesota. Being a child of the Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA)
I found that there were few states in the provences that stood
out in this youngster's mind: California, Texas, and Florida to 
name the most obvious three.  However, both Minnesota and Wisconsin
stuck out, solely on the basis of their politics.  Both have 
always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states.
And my recent trip to Minnestoa last summer served to support that
state's reputation.  My guess is that Wisconsin is probably the
same.  At least that was the impression the people of Minnesota left
with me about their neighbors.

The only question in my head about Wisconsin, though, is 
whether or not there is a cause-effect relationship between
cheese and serial killers :)

-jim halat

after prepro  From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 23

In article 1993Apr1417555720296daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes

Sorry to insult your homestate but coming from where I do Wisconsin
is _very_ backwards  I was never able to understand that people actually
held such bigoted and backwards views until I came here

I have never been to Wisconsin though I have been to
neighbor Minnesota Being a child of the Middle Atlantic NY NJ PA
I found that there were few states in the provences that stood
out in this youngsters mind California Texas and Florida to 
name the most obvious three  However both Minnesota and Wisconsin
stuck out solely on the basis of their politics  Both have 
always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states
And my recent trip to Minnestoa last summer served to support that
states reputation  My guess is that Wisconsin is probably the
same  At least that was the impression the people of Minnesota left
with me about their neighbors

The only question in my head about Wisconsin though is 
whether or not there is a causeeffect relationship between
cheese and serial killers 

jim halat

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 27

In article <1qjfnv$ogt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank
O'Dwyer) wrote:
> (1) Does the term "hero-worship" mean anything to you?  

Yes, worshipping Jesus as the super-saver is indeed hero-worshipping
of the grand scale. Worshipping Lenin that will make life pleasant
for the working people is, eh, somehow similar, or what.
 
> (2) I understand that gods are defined to be supernatural, not merely
>     superhuman.
The notion of Lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights
into how to change the world, he wasn't a communist God, but he was
the man who gave presents to kids during Christmas.
 
> #Actually, I agree. Things are always relative, and you can't have 
> #a direct mapping between a movement and a cause. However, the notion
> #that communist Russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is 
> #only something that Robertson, Tilton et rest would believe in.
> 
> Those atheists were not True Unbelievers, huh?   :-)

Don't know what they were, but they were fanatics indeed.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 27

In article 1qjfnvogthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank
ODwyer wrote
 1 Does the term heroworship mean anything to you  

Yes worshipping Jesus as the supersaver is indeed heroworshipping
of the grand scale Worshipping Lenin that will make life pleasant
for the working people is eh somehow similar or what
 
 2 I understand that gods are defined to be supernatural not merely
     superhuman
The notion of Lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights
into how to change the world he wasnt a communist God but he was
the man who gave presents to kids during Christmas
 
 Actually I agree Things are always relative and you cant have 
 a direct mapping between a movement and a cause However the notion
 that communist Russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is 
 only something that Robertson Tilton et rest would believe in
 
 Those atheists were not True Unbelievers huh   

Dont know what they were but they were fanatics indeed

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt)
Subject: Re:  Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Reply-To: vdp@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Foundation/Mayo Graduate School :Rochester, MN
Lines: 53

In article H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil,  khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
##I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND
##SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille, a French surgeon.  It is not comprehensive,
##but, it is well researched.  I imagine your library has it or can get it
##for you through interlibrary loan.
##

  I shall try to get hold of it (when I have time to read of course :-)

##In short, Dr Baucaille began investigating the Bible because of pre-
##ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies.  He assumed that
##some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by-
##gone days.  So, he read what he could find in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.
##What he found was that the problems didn't go away, they got worse.
##Then, he decided to see if other religions had the same problems.
##So, he picked up the Holy Qur'an (in French) and found similar prob-
##lems, but not as many.  SO, he applied the same logoic as he had
##with the Bible: he learned to read it in Arabic.  The problems he
##had found with the French version went away in Arabic.  He was unable
##to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Qur'an, but,
##what he did find made sense with modern understanding.  So, he
##investigated the Traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to
##say about science.  they were filled with science problems; after
##all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by
##pour standards, a primitive world view.  His conclusion was that,
##while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
##say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
##Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
##the Traditions.  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
##what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
##it)?  
##

    So in short the writer (or writers) of Quran decided to stay away from
science.  (if you do not open your mouth, then you don't put you foot into
your mouth either). 

   But then if you say Quran does not talk much about science, then one can
not make claims (like Bobby does) that you have great science in Quran.

   Basically I want to say that *none* of the religious texts are supposed to
be scientific treatises. So I am just requesting the theists to stop making
such wild claims.

--- Vinayak
-------------------------------------------------------
                                           vinayak dutt
                                   e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu

             standard disclaimers apply
-------------------------------------------------------



after prepro  From vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt
Subject Re  Islam And Scientific Predictions was
ReplyTo vdpmayoedu
Organization Mayo FoundationMayo Graduate School Rochester MN
Lines 53

In article H9rranrlnavymil  khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE THE QURAN AND
SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille a French surgeon  It is not comprehensive
but it is well researched  I imagine your library has it or can get it
for you through interlibrary loan


  I shall try to get hold of it when I have time to read of course 

In short Dr Baucaille began investigating the Bible because of pre
ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies  He assumed that
some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by
gone days  So he read what he could find in Hebrew Greek Aramaic
What he found was that the problems didnt go away they got worse
Then he decided to see if other religions had the same problems
So he picked up the Holy Quran in French and found similar prob
lems but not as many  SO he applied the same logoic as he had
with the Bible he learned to read it in Arabic  The problems he
had found with the French version went away in Arabic  He was unable
to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Quran but
what he did find made sense with modern understanding  So he
investigated the Traditions the hadith to see what they had to
say about science  they were filled with science problems after
all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by
pour standards a primitive world view  His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it  


    So in short the writer or writers of Quran decided to stay away from
science  if you do not open your mouth then you dont put you foot into
your mouth either 

   But then if you say Quran does not talk much about science then one can
not make claims like Bobby does that you have great science in Quran

   Basically I want to say that none of the religious texts are supposed to
be scientific treatises So I am just requesting the theists to stop making
such wild claims

 Vinayak

                                           vinayak dutt
                                   email vdpmayoedu

             standard disclaimers apply




preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: NASA Ames server (was Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnala.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr26.152722.19887@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks [NASA]) writes:
> I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
[...]
> Sorry it took
> me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
> but it's out of space.

How ironic.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | "Treat your password like
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | your toothbrush.  Don't let
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | anybody else use it--
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | and get a new one every
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | six months."  --Cliff Stoll

after prepro  From higginsfnalafnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject NASA Ames server was Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost fnalafnalgov

In article 1993Apr2615272219887aiojscnasagov kjenksjscnasagov Ken Jenks [NASA] writes
 I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server icsuciedu
[]
 Sorry it took
 me so long to get these out but I was trying for the Ames server
 but its out of space

How ironic

Bill Higgins Beam Jockey               Treat your password like
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory   your toothbrush  Dont let
Bitnet           HIGGINSFNALBITNET   anybody else use it
Internet       HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   and get a new one every
SPANHepnet           43011HIGGINS   six months  Cliff Stoll

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Surviving Large Accelerations?
From: lpham@eis.calstate.edu (Lan Pham)
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 25

Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
>     I was reading through "The Spaceflight Handbook" and somewhere in
> there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
> when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
> the sun in a hyperbolic orbit. The magnitude of such accelerations he
> estimated to be on the order of 700g. He also says that this is may not
> be a big problem for manned craft because humans (and this was published
> in 1986) have already withstood accelerations of 45g. All this is very
> long-winded but here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
> fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
> course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
> Can this be extended to larger accelerations?

are you sure 45g is the right number? as far as i know, pilots are
blackout in dives that exceed 8g - 9g. 45g seems to be out of human
tolerance. would anybody clarify this please.

lan


> 
> Thanks is advance...
> -Amruth Laxman
> 

after prepro  Subject Re Surviving Large Accelerations
From lphameiscalstateedu Lan Pham
Organization Calif State UnivElectronic Information Services
Lines 25

Amruth Laxman  writes
 Hi
     I was reading through The Spaceflight Handbook and somewhere in
 there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
 when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
 the sun in a hyperbolic orbit The magnitude of such accelerations he
 estimated to be on the order of 700g He also says that this is may not
 be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published
 in 1986 have already withstood accelerations of 45g All this is very
 longwinded but heres my question finally  Are 45g accelerations in
 fact humanly tolerable  with the aid of any mechanical devices of
 course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration
 Can this be extended to larger accelerations

are you sure 45g is the right number as far as i know pilots are
blackout in dives that exceed 8g  9g 45g seems to be out of human
tolerance would anybody clarify this please

lan


 
 Thanks is advance
 Amruth Laxman
 

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 54
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr22.003719.101323@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>prb@access.digex.com (Pat) Pontificated: 
>>
>>
>
>I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
>that essentially says "If you never hear from Earth again,
>here's what to do."  This was a back up in the event a receiver
>burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but
>still some data).  
>

Voyager  has the unusual  luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system.   All it's doing is collecting  fields  data,  and routinely
squirting it down.  One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit,  and still providing similiar  solar data.  

Something  in a planetary orbit,  is subject to much more complex forces.

Comsats, in "stable " geosynch  orbits,  require  almost daily
stationkeeping operations.   

For the occasional  deep space bird,  like PFF  after pluto,  sure
it could be left on  "auto-pilot".  but things like  galileo or
magellan,  i'd suspect they need enough  housekeeping that
even untended they'd  end up unusable after a while.

The better question  should be.

Why not transfer  O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions.

pat

	When ongoing ops are mentioned,  it seems to  always quote  Operations
and Data analysis.  how much would it cost to collect the data
and let it be analyzed  whenever.  kinda like all that landsat data
that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole.

>>Even if you let teh bird drift,  it may  get hosed by some
>>cosmic phenomena.   
>>
>Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
>startup, if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe, it might
>not be such a big loss.  Obviously you can't plan for
>everything, but the most obvious things can be considered.
>
>
>/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
>| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you        |   
>| think I said.  But I am not sure that you realize that        |
>| what I said is not what I meant."                             |



after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 54
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr22003719101323zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
prbaccessdigexcom Pat Pontificated 



I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says If you never hear from Earth again
heres what to do  This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but
still some data  


Voyager  has the unusual  luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system   All its doing is collecting  fields  data  and routinely
squirting it down  One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit  and still providing similiar  solar data  

Something  in a planetary orbit  is subject to much more complex forces

Comsats in stable  geosynch  orbits  require  almost daily
stationkeeping operations   

For the occasional  deep space bird  like PFF  after pluto  sure
it could be left on  autopilot  but things like  galileo or
magellan  id suspect they need enough  housekeeping that
even untended theyd  end up unusable after a while

The better question  should be

Why not transfer  OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions

pat

	When ongoing ops are mentioned  it seems to  always quote  Operations
and Data analysis  how much would it cost to collect the data
and let it be analyzed  whenever  kinda like all that landsat data
that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole

Even if you let teh bird drift  it may  get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena   

Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe it might
not be such a big loss  Obviously you cant plan for
everything but the most obvious things can be considered


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I know you believe you understand what it is that you           
 think I said  But I am not sure that you realize that        
 what I said is not what I meant                             



preprocess doc  From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: DC-X: Choice of a New Generation (was Re: SSRT Roll-Out Speech)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: jkatz@access.digex.com's message of 21 Apr 1993 22:09:32 -0400

In article <1r4uos$jid@access.digex.net> jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz) writes:

>		   Speech Delivered by Col. Simon P. Worden,
>			The Deputy for Technology, SDIO
>
>	Most of you, as am I, are "children of the 1960's."  We grew
>up in an age of miracles -- Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles,
>nuclear energy, computers, flights to the moon.  But these were
>miracles of our parent's doing. 

>                          Speech by Pete Worden
>          Delivered Before the U.S. Space Foundation Conference

>     I'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
>generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's
>and 1960's.  They went to the moon - we built a telescope that
>can't see straight.  They soft-landed on Mars - the least we
>could do is soft-land on Earth!

Just out of curiousity, how old is Worden?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


after prepro  From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject DCX Choice of a New Generation was Re SSRT RollOut Speech
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 27
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu
Inreplyto jkatzaccessdigexcoms message of 21 Apr 1993 220932 0400

In article 1r4uosjidaccessdigexnet jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz writes

		   Speech Delivered by Col Simon P Worden
			The Deputy for Technology SDIO

	Most of you as am I are children of the 1960s  We grew
up in an age of miracles  InterContinental Ballistic Missiles
nuclear energy computers flights to the moon  But these were
miracles of our parents doing 

                          Speech by Pete Worden
          Delivered Before the US Space Foundation Conference

     Im embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation  the giants of the last great space era the 1950s
and 1960s  They went to the moon  we built a telescope that
cant see straight  They softlanded on Mars  the least we
could do is softland on Earth

Just out of curiousity how old is Worden

_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: sgi
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <115468@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|> In article <1qg79g$kl5@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >You are amazed that I find it difficult to grasp it when
|> >people justify death-threats against Rushdie with the 
|> >claim "he was born Muslim?"
|> 
|> This is empty rhetoric. I am amazed at your inability to understand what
|> I am saying not that you find it difficult to "grasp it when people
|> justify death-threats...". I find it amazing that your ability to
|> consider abstract questions in isolation. You seem to believe in the
|> falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse. You must *hate*
|> physics!

You're closer than you might imagine.   I certainly despised living
under the Soviet regime when it purported to organize society according
to what they fondly imagined to be the "objective" conclusions of
Marxist dialectic.

But I don't hate Physics so long as some clown doesn't start trying
to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable
atoms, rather than individual human beings.

jon. 

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization sgi
Lines 24
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 115468buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 In article 1qg79gkl5fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 You are amazed that I find it difficult to grasp it when
 people justify deaththreats against Rushdie with the 
 claim he was born Muslim
 
 This is empty rhetoric I am amazed at your inability to understand what
 I am saying not that you find it difficult to grasp it when people
 justify deaththreats I find it amazing that your ability to
 consider abstract questions in isolation You seem to believe in the
 falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse You must hate
 physics

Youre closer than you might imagine   I certainly despised living
under the Soviet regime when it purported to organize society according
to what they fondly imagined to be the objective conclusions of
Marxist dialectic

But I dont hate Physics so long as some clown doesnt start trying
to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable
atoms rather than individual human beings

jon 

preprocess doc  From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 28

In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com> dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
>
>  Hello. I just started reading this group today, and I think I am going
>to be a large participant in its daily postings. I liked the section of
>the FAQ about constructing logical arguments - well done. I am an atheist,
>but I do not try to turn other people into atheists. I only try to figure
>why people believe the way they do - I don't much care if they have a 
>different view than I do. When it comes down to it . . . I could be wrong.
>I am willing to admit the possibility - something religious followers 
>dont seem to have the capability to do.
>
>  Happy to be aboard !
>
>Dave Fuller
>dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com

Welcome.  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster."  So the next time
you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
Dave "Buckminster" Fuller.  Thanks again.

Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part                    | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse       | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse        | Nothing

after prepro  From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Re New Member
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 28

In article  dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes

  Hello I just started reading this group today and I think I am going
to be a large participant in its daily postings I liked the section of
the FAQ about constructing logical arguments  well done I am an atheist
but I do not try to turn other people into atheists I only try to figure
why people believe the way they do  I dont much care if they have a 
different view than I do When it comes down to it    I could be wrong
I am willing to admit the possibility  something religious followers 
dont seem to have the capability to do

  Happy to be aboard 

Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom

Welcome  I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster  So the next time
you post an article sign with your nickname like so
Dave Buckminster Fuller  Thanks again

Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland

If God is dead and the actor plays his part                      Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart  History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse        Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse         Nothing

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:

>>To borrow from philosophy, you don't truly understand the color red
>>until you have seen it.
>Not true, even if you have experienced the color red you still might
>have a different interpretation of it.

But, you wouldn't know what red *was*, and you certainly couldn't judge
it subjectively.  And, objectivity is not applicable, since you are wanting
to discuss the merits of red.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider  Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes

To borrow from philosophy you dont truly understand the color red
until you have seen it
Not true even if you have experienced the color red you still might
have a different interpretation of it

But you wouldnt know what red was and you certainly couldnt judge
it subjectively  And objectivity is not applicable since you are wanting
to discuss the merits of red

keith

preprocess doc  From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 80

In article <1993Apr21.150545.24058@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
wrote:
> 
> In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> 
> >>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
> >>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
> 
> >Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
> >to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation.  Of
> >course, they may be over-optimistic.
> 
> In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
> cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
> is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
> base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
> much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
> range.
> 

For the purpose of a contest, I'd bet some things could be cut.  Like fuel
for re-entry, any kind of heat shielding, etc., etc.  Even still, if the
contest participants had to fund DC-1 development, it probably wouldn't be
worth it to develop DC-1 (just for the contest).  Just give me the cheapest
heaviest lift man rated (or at least under 6 or so Gs) booster...  If I
don't have to pay for DC-1 development, great!, I'll use it.

But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST about a
low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon.  A General
Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
stage, LEV, and crew capsule.  The mission consists of delivering two
unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission. 
Total cost:  US was $10-$13 billion.  Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was $6-$9
billion for the US share.

I didn't find a mention of how long the crew could stay, but I'd bet that
its  around 30 days.  And the total payload delivered was about 30 metric
tonnes.  So if you ignore the scientific payload, hitch a ride in the crew
habitation module (no return trip...), and toss in a few more tonnes for
the additional consumables to last another 11 months, then you *might* be
able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes (and in case its not obvious,
that's a wild ass guess).  A pretty boring visit, since every trip outdoors
eats up a bit of LOX.  And I'm not certain if a home brewed (or
college-brewed) life support system could last a year.  But let's round
this up to 19.4 tonnes (convient, since the GD plan talks about 9.7 ton
payloads delivered to the lunar surface.  This adds up to two Centaurs, two
LEVs, two Shuttle flights... All to put a single man on the moon for a
year.   Hmmm.  Not really practical.  Anyone got a cheaper/better way of
delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade?  Anyone
have a more precise guess about how much a year's supply of consumables and
equipment would weigh?

And I was wondering about the GD LEV.  Is it reusable?  Or is it discarded
to burn up on return to LEO?  If its not discarded, could it be refueled? 
Henry: Do you know anything about the GD LEV?  I noted that it uses RL-10
engines.  Aren't they reusable/restartable?  Would a LEV fit in a DC-1? 
I've forgotten (if I ever knew) what the cargo bay dimensions are for the
DC-1.

All in all, I'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise and/or useful.  How about:  A prize for the first
non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a manned
moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth.  Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure...  Having a single goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared
to win.  And for those that didn't give up, I find something a little scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters.  I'd
like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition.

Lastly, about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was an
English space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases on
the cheap.  I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from solar
flares, etc.  Unfortunately I don't remember the name of this magazine. 
Does this ring a bell to anyone?

Craig Keithley                    |"I don't remember, I don't recall, 
Apple Computer, Inc.              |I got no memory of anything at all"
keithley@apple.com                |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)

after prepro  From keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization Apple Computer Inc
Lines 80

In article 1993Apr2115054524058itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
wrote
 
 In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 
 This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
 enough to do it if the vehicle exists
 
 Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
 to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation  Of
 course they may be overoptimistic
 
 In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
 cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
 is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
 base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
 much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
 range
 

For the purpose of a contest Id bet some things could be cut  Like fuel
for reentry any kind of heat shielding etc etc  Even still if the
contest participants had to fund DC1 development it probably wouldnt be
worth it to develop DC1 just for the contest  Just give me the cheapest
heaviest lift man rated or at least under 6 or so Gs booster  If I
dont have to pay for DC1 development great Ill use it

But back to the contest goals there was a recent article in AWST about a
low cost its all relative manned return to the moon  A General
Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV  Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
stage LEV and crew capsule  The mission consists of delivering two
unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission 
Total cost  US was 1013 billion  Joint ESANASA project was 69
billion for the US share

I didnt find a mention of how long the crew could stay but Id bet that
its  around 30 days  And the total payload delivered was about 30 metric
tonnes  So if you ignore the scientific payload hitch a ride in the crew
habitation module no return trip and toss in a few more tonnes for
the additional consumables to last another 11 months then you might be
able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes and in case its not obvious
thats a wild ass guess  A pretty boring visit since every trip outdoors
eats up a bit of LOX  And Im not certain if a home brewed or
collegebrewed life support system could last a year  But lets round
this up to 194 tonnes convient since the GD plan talks about 97 ton
payloads delivered to the lunar surface  This adds up to two Centaurs two
LEVs two Shuttle flights All to put a single man on the moon for a
year   Hmmm  Not really practical  Anyone got a cheaperbetter way of
delivering 1520 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade  Anyone
have a more precise guess about how much a years supply of consumables and
equipment would weigh

And I was wondering about the GD LEV  Is it reusable  Or is it discarded
to burn up on return to LEO  If its not discarded could it be refueled 
Henry Do you know anything about the GD LEV  I noted that it uses RL10
engines  Arent they reusablerestartable  Would a LEV fit in a DC1 
Ive forgotten if I ever knew what the cargo bay dimensions are for the
DC1

All in all Im not certain that the single goalprize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise andor useful  How about  A prize for the first
nongovernment sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a manned
moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil another for a reusable earthmoon shuttle and so forth  Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure  Having a single goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared
to win  And for those that didnt give up I find something a little scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters  Id
like to see as much a reward for cooperation as for competition

Lastly about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was an
English space magazine that had an ongoing discussion about moonbases on
the cheap  I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced how much lunar material itd need for protection from solar
flares etc  Unfortunately I dont remember the name of this magazine 
Does this ring a bell to anyone

Craig Keithley                    I dont remember I dont recall 
Apple Computer Inc              I got no memory of anything at all
keithleyapplecom                Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr22.184650.4833@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>isn't my real name, either.  I'm actually Elvis.  Or maybe a lemur; I
>sometimes have difficulty telling which is which.

definitely a lemur.

Elvis couldn't spell,  just listen to any of his songs.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr221846504833mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
isnt my real name either  Im actually Elvis  Or maybe a lemur I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which

definitely a lemur

Elvis couldnt spell  just listen to any of his songs

pat

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 22

In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
>exploration.
>
>Basically get the eco-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth.

They aren't going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining.  Quite a
few of those people are, when you come right down to it, basically against
industrial civilization.  They won't stop with shutting down the mines here;
that is only a means to an end for them now.

The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution
is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without radical change.
Telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is
treason of the vilest kind.

Trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to
harness a buffalo to pull your plough.  He's got plenty of muscle, all
right, but the furrow will go where he wants, not where you want.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 22

In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration

Basically get the ecofreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth

They arent going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining  Quite a
few of those people are when you come right down to it basically against
industrial civilization  They wont stop with shutting down the mines here
that is only a means to an end for them now

The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution
is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without radical change
Telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is
treason of the vilest kind

Trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to
harness a buffalo to pull your plough  Hes got plenty of muscle all
right but the furrow will go where he wants not where you want
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus)
Article-I.D.: mojo.1qkn6rINNett
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 17
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <1993Apr15.170048.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
>States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K... Later, they went
>on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.
>
>The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
>airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
>look at.

They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO.  Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE: 1999. 



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Doppelganger was Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
ArticleID mojo1qkn6rINNett
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Distribution world
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 17
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article 1993Apr151700481fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes

This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
States and as Doppelganger in the UK Later they went
on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999

The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
look at

They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO  Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE 1999 



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject: ORION test film
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: sor.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 11

Is the film from the "putt-putt" test vehicle which used conventional
explosives as a proof-of-concept test, or another one?

---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/    Nathan F. Wallace                   C/C/           "Reality Is"         C/
C/    e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu   C/C/    ancient Alphaean proverb    C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
 



after prepro  From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject ORION test film
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost sorcscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University  Computer Science Dept
Lines 11

Is the film from the puttputt test vehicle which used conventional
explosives as a proofofconcept test or another one


CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C    Nathan F Wallace                   CC           Reality Is         C
C    email wallacencscolostateedu   CC    ancient Alphaean proverb    C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 



preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 42
	<STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu>
	<1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 20 Apr 93 22:38:07 GMT

In article <1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

   In article <STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

   > Why Paul, it's obvious.
   > Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
   > as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will

   > :-) :-) :-) 

   Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification.  The
   chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
   dominance in the marketplace.

Darn, caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again...

   Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
   white lead pigment some decades ago.  Very little is reduced to the
   metal.

Spoilsport. Hence the need for increasing fashion
emphasis on anodise Ti jewelry...

   > Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
   > in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
   > the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
   > use...

   Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
   there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)

I did not evade the issue at all. I clearly stated that
this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing
a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming Great War ;-)
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			 Lick Observatory     	  *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		       "standard disclaimer"  	  *
* But, oh, love is strange 					  *
* and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth,      *
* I suppose 				              - B.B. 1983 *


after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 42
	
	1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto dietzcsrochesteredus message of 20 Apr 93 223807 GMT

In article 1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes

   In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

    Why Paul its obvious
    Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
    as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will

       

   Well there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification  The
   chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving
   dominance in the marketplace

Darn caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again

   Most Ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced
   white lead pigment some decades ago  Very little is reduced to the
   metal

Spoilsport Hence the need for increasing fashion
emphasis on anodise Ti jewelry

    Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
    in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
    the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
    use

   Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
   there at all and why their children would want to stay

I did not evade the issue at all I clearly stated that
this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing
a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming Great War 
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method 

  Steinn Sigurdsson   			 Lick Observatory     	  
 steinlylickucscedu		       standard disclaimer  	  
 But oh love is strange 					  
 and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth      
 I suppose 				               BB 1983 


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.001718.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
> when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining.
> 
> they still mine coal in the midwest,  but now it doesn't look like
> the moon when theyare done.
> 
> pat
===
I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).

I am talking the guy who coem to Nome evry year, sets up his tent on the beach
(the beach was washed away last year) and sets up his/her sluice box and goes
at it "mining".
I know the large corps, such as Alaska Gold Company, might complain to..

My opinions are what I learn at the local BS table..

My original thing/idea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the
eco-freaks thier way.. As they have done with other mineral development.
You can't in many places can't go to the bathroom in the woods without some
form of regulation covering it.. 

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr230017181
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
  Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
 when they were told to pay for  restoring land  after strip mining
 
 they still mine coal in the midwest  but now it doesnt look like
 the moon when theyare done
 
 pat

I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point

I am talking the guy who coem to Nome evry year sets up his tent on the beach
the beach was washed away last year and sets up hisher sluice box and goes
at it mining
I know the large corps such as Alaska Gold Company might complain to

My opinions are what I learn at the local BS table

My original thingidea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the
ecofreaks thier way As they have done with other mineral development
You cant in many places cant go to the bathroom in the woods without some
form of regulation covering it 


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 19

In article <115437@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:
> As I have stated on a parallel thread, I am not an anarchist, nor is
> Islam anarchist. Therefore the UK should have control over itself. 
> However, this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens
> of the UK residing within the UK to be in violation of Islamic law.

This is an interesting notion -- and one I'm scared of. In my
case I'm a Finnish citizen, I live in USA, and I have to conform
to the US laws. However, the Finnish government is not actively
checking out what I'm doing in this country, in other words checking
out if I conform to the Finnish laws.

However, Islamic law seems to be a 'curse' that is following you
everywhere in the world. Shades of 1984, eh?

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution worldpublic
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 19

In article 115437buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote
 As I have stated on a parallel thread I am not an anarchist nor is
 Islam anarchist Therefore the UK should have control over itself 
 However this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens
 of the UK residing within the UK to be in violation of Islamic law

This is an interesting notion  and one Im scared of In my
case Im a Finnish citizen I live in USA and I have to conform
to the US laws However the Finnish government is not actively
checking out what Im doing in this country in other words checking
out if I conform to the Finnish laws

However Islamic law seems to be a curse that is following you
everywhere in the world Shades of 1984 eh

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 48
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:
>:> God is eternal.    [A = B]
>:> Jesus is God.      [C = A]
>:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal.  [C = B]
>
>:> This works both logically and mathematically.  God is of the set of
>:> things which are eternal.  Jesus is a subset of God.   Therefore
>:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
>
>Everything isn't always so logical....
>
>Mercedes is a car.
>That girl is Mercedes.
>Therefore, that girl is a car?

	This is not  strickly correct. Only by incorrect application of the 
rules of language, does it seem to work.

	The Mercedes in the first premis, and the one in the second are NOT 
the same Mercedes. 

	In your case, 

	A = B
	C = D
	
	A and D are NOT equal. One is a name of a person, the other the
name of a object. You can not simply extract a word without taking the 
context into account. 

	Of course, your case doesn't imply that A = D.

	In his case, A does equal D.


	Try again...

---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world. 


after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 48
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article  suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki writes
 God is eternal    [A  B]
 Jesus is God      [C  A]
 Therefore Jesus is eternal  [C  B]

 This works both logically and mathematically  God is of the set of
 things which are eternal  Jesus is a subset of God   Therefore
 Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal

Everything isnt always so logical

Mercedes is a car
That girl is Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car

	This is not  strickly correct Only by incorrect application of the 
rules of language does it seem to work

	The Mercedes in the first premis and the one in the second are NOT 
the same Mercedes 

	In your case 

	A  B
	C  D
	
	A and D are NOT equal One is a name of a person the other the
name of a object You can not simply extract a word without taking the 
context into account 

	Of course your case doesnt imply that A  D

	In his case A does equal D


	Try again



        One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say Mom because of the love of their mom  It makes for more 
        virile men

        Bobby Mozumder   snm6394ultbiscritedu 
        April 4 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world 


preprocess doc  From: jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Lines: 37
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada

In article <15APR199315012030@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.094320.1723@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes...
>>> > So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that
>>> > put it into temporary orbit, and how far is it likely to get from
>>> > Jupiter before it makes its escape?
>>> 
>>> The answer to all of these questions is we don't know yet.
>>> We don't know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit.
>> 
>>I see.  I wasn't so interested in this particular case as in typical
>>behavior, anyway.  Can these questions be answered for a previous
>>instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?
> 
> Gehrels 3 was in a temporary Jovian orbit for about 3 or 4 years.  I'll
> get the orbital elements from Dance of the Planets and post them here.

Sorry folks, I should have done this, and meant to just after i hit the 
send key...

Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)

p(au)          3.424346
e              0.151899
i              1.0988
cap_omega(0) 243.5652
W(0)         231.1607
epoch       1977.04110

Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:

April  1973     83 jupiter radii
August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii

Hope this helps...I'm even less of an orbital mechanic than I am an artist.

John Garland
jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca

after prepro  From jgarlandkeanucsmunca
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Lines 37
Organization Memorial University StJohns Nfld Canada

In article 15APR199315012030kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 In article 1993Apr150943201723sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
  So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that
  put it into temporary orbit and how far is it likely to get from
  Jupiter before it makes its escape
 
 The answer to all of these questions is we dont know yet
 We dont know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit
 
I see  I wasnt so interested in this particular case as in typical
behavior anyway  Can these questions be answered for a previous
instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting
 
 Gehrels 3 was in a temporary Jovian orbit for about 3 or 4 years  Ill
 get the orbital elements from Dance of the Planets and post them here

Sorry folks I should have done this and meant to just after i hit the 
send key

Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files

pau          3424346
e              0151899
i              10988
cap_omega0 2435652
W0         2311607
epoch       197704110

Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were

April  1973     83 jupiter radii
August 1970     3 jupiter radii

Hope this helpsIm even less of an orbital mechanic than I am an artist

John Garland
jgarlandkeanucsmunca

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr20.072706.19981@cs.ruu.nl>, jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg) writes...
>In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov 
>(Ron Baalke) writes:
> 
>>4.  On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.

>Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??

The gravity data is collected in real-time and it not recorded to the tape
recorder.  However, you only need to collect the gravity every 3rd or 4th
orbit, so there is no real data loss if the Moon blocks transmission for
a short while.

>BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
>looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
>to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)

The aerobraking starts May 25 and is expected last about 70 days.  If the
funding is provided (8 million dollars) to extend the mission for the
high resolution gravity data, then the mission will last through October 1994.
Otherwise, the mission will end this coming July.   
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Magellan Update  041693
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 29
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr2007270619981csruunl jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg writes
In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov 
Ron Baalke writes
 
4  On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes

Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on 

The gravity data is collected in realtime and it not recorded to the tape
recorder  However you only need to collect the gravity every 3rd or 4th
orbit so there is no real data loss if the Moon blocks transmission for
a short while

BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding 

The aerobraking starts May 25 and is expected last about 70 days  If the
funding is provided 8 million dollars to extend the mission for the
high resolution gravity data then the mission will last through October 1994
Otherwise the mission will end this coming July   
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
In-Reply-To: <C5L1Fv.H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 35

>DATE:   Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:23:54 GMT
>FROM:   Umar Khan <khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil>
>
> His conclusion was that,
>while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
>say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
>Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
>the Traditions.  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?  
>
Well, it looks like the folks in soc.religion.islam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking/interest
topic.  A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned.  These may be hard to find, but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity.  I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran (which I posted here) were also pretty 
vague.  I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have.

At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science.

I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
"Creation Science" on any topic.  It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran, to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded.  It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then "interpret" passages
to match those findings.  People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time.

Anyway, it is a rather unique claim of Islam and may be worth checking.



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
InReplyTo 
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 35

DATE   Fri 16 Apr 1993 152354 GMT
FROM   Umar Khan 

 His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions  How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it  

Well it looks like the folks in socreligionislam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the bankinginterest
topic  A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned  These may be hard to find but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity  I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran which I posted here were also pretty 
vague  I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have

At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science

I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
Creation Science on any topic  It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded  It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then interpret passages
to match those findings  People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time

Anyway it is a rather unique claim of Islam and may be worth checking



preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Wholly Babble (Was Re: free moral agency)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 10

In article <2944159064.5.p00261@psilink.com>
"Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
 
(Deletion)
>Of course, there is also the
>Book of the SubGenius and that whole collection of writings as well.
 
 
Does someone know a FTP site with it?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Wholly Babble Was Re free moral agency
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 10

In article 29441590645p00261psilinkcom
Robert Knowles  writes
 
Deletion
Of course there is also the
Book of the SubGenius and that whole collection of writings as well
 
 
Does someone know a FTP site with it
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14

In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.

Their Hiten engineering-test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys, and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravity-assist-like maneuvering.  This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually, since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit (as far as anyone knows), and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14

In article  dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon

Their Hiten engineeringtest mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravityassistlike maneuvering  This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|
|I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
|current spending rules don't permit it to be workable.  For this to
|work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
|minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
|enough to make this attractive to a private firm.  Since they
|generally can't allocate money except one year at a time, the
|government can't provide such a tenant guarantee.


Fred.

	Try reading a bit.  THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses.  They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract.   THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts,  that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.

Look at SSF.  THis years funding is 2.2 Billion,  1.8 of which will
cover penalty clauses, due to the re-design.

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes

I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable  For this to
work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
enough to make this attractive to a private firm  Since they
generally cant allocate money except one year at a time the
government cant provide such a tenant guarantee


Fred

	Try reading a bit  THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses  They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract   THe reason they arent cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts  that its now cheaper to just finish them out

Look at SSF  THis years funding is 22 Billion  18 of which will
cover penalty clauses due to the redesign

pat


preprocess doc  Subject: Space FAQ 05/15 - References
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:56:44 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <references_730956466@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 665

Archive-name: space/references
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:21 $

REFERENCES ON SPECIFIC AREAS

    PUBLISHERS OF SPACE/ASTRONOMY MATERIAL

    Astronomical Society of the Pacific
    1290 24th Avenue
    San Francisco, CA 94122

	More expensive but better organized slide sets.

    Cambridge University Press
    32 East 57th Street
    New York, NY 10022

    Crawford-Peters Aeronautica
    P.O. Box 152528
    San Diego, CA 92115
    (619) 287-3933

	An excellent source of all kinds of space publications. They publish
	a number of catalogs, including:
	    Aviation and Space, 1945-1962
	    Aviation and Space, 1962-1990
	    Space and Related Titles

    European Southern Observatory
    Information and Photographic Service
    Dr R.M. West
    Karl Scharzschild Strasse 2
    D-8046 Garching bei Munchen
    FRG

	Slide sets, posters, photographs, conference proceedings.

    Finley Holiday Film Corporation
    12607 East Philadelphia Street
    Whittier, California 90601
    (213)945-3325
    (800)FILMS-07

	Wide selection of Apollo, Shuttle, Viking, and Voyager slides at ~50
	cents/slide. Call for a catalog.

    Hansen Planetarium (Utah)

	Said to hold sales on old slide sets. Look in Sky & Telescope
	for contact info.

    Lunar and Planetary Institute
    3303 NASA Road One
    Houston, TX 77058-4399

	Technical, geology-oriented slide sets, with supporting
	booklets.

    John Wiley & Sons
    605 Third Avenue
    New York, NY 10158-0012

    Sky Publishing Corporation
    PO Box 9111
    Belmont, MA  02178-9111

	Offers "Sky Catalogue 2000.0" on PC floppy with information
	(including parallax) for 45000 stars.

    Roger Wheate
    Geography Dept.
    University of Calgary, Alberta
    Canada T2N 1N4
    (403)-220-4892
    (403)-282-7298 (FAX)
    wheate@uncamult.bitnet

	Offers a 40-slide set called "Mapping the Planets" illustrating
	recent work in planetary cartography, comes with a booklet and
	information on getting your own copies of the maps. $50 Canadian,
	shipping included.

    Superintendent of Documents
    US Government Printing Office
    Washington, DC 20402

    Univelt, Inc.
    P. O. Box 28130
    San Diego, Ca. 92128

	Publishers for the American Astronomical Society.

    US Naval Observatory
	202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
	202-653-1507 General

    Willmann-Bell
    P.O. Box 35025
    Richmond, Virginia 23235 USA
    (804)-320-7016 9-5 EST M-F


    CAREERS IN THE SPACE INDUSTRY

    In 1990 the Princeton Planetary Society published the first edition of
    "Space Jobs: The Guide to Careers in Space-Related Fields." The
    publication was enormously successful: we distributed 2000 copies to
    space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in
    Great Britain, Australia, and Ecuador. Due to the tremendous response to
    the first edition, PPS has published an expanded, up-to-date second
    edition of the guide.

    The 40-page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and full-time job
    opportunities as well as graduate school programs. The second edition of
    "Space Jobs" features strategies for entering the space field and
    describes positions at consulting and engineering firms, NASA, and
    non-profit organizations. The expanded special section on graduate
    schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing
    to space policy. Additional sections include tips on becoming an
    astronaut and listings of NASA Space Grant Fellowships and Consortia, as
    well as NASA Centers for the Commercial Development of Space.

    To order send check or money order made payable to Princeton Planetary
    Society for $4 per copy, plus $1 per copy for shipping and handling
    (non-US customers send an International Money Order payable in US
    dollars) to:

    Princeton Planetary Society
    315 West College
    Princeton University
    Princeton, NJ  08544


    DC-X SINGLE-STAGE TO ORBIT (SSTO) PROGRAM

    SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
    suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
    mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
    orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.

    An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
    anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

	bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper

    Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.


    HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

    Official names are decided by committees of the International
    Astronomical Union, and are not for sale. There are purely commercial
    organizations which will, for a fee, send you pretty certificates and
    star maps describing where to find "your" star. These organizations have
    absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they
    assign are not used by anyone else. It's also likely that you won't be
    able to see "your" star without binoculars or a telescope. See the back
    pages of Astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact
    info; one such organization may be found at:

	International Star Registry
	34523 Wilson Road
	Ingleside, IL 60041

    This is not an endorsement of ISR.


    LLNL "GREAT EXPLORATION"

    The LLNL "Great Exploration", a plan for an on-the-cheap space station,
    Lunar base, and Mars mission using inflatable space structures, excited
    a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time. Some
    references cited during net discussion were:

	Avation Week Jan 22, 1990 for an article on the overall Great
	Exploration

	NASA Assessment of the LLNL Space Exploration Proposal and LLNL
	Responses by Dr. Lowell Wood LLNL Doc. No. SS 90-9. Their address
	is: PO Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 (the NASA authors are unknown).

	Briefing slides of a presentation to the NRC last December may be
	available. Write LLNL and ask.

	Conceptual Design Study for Modular Inflatable Space Structures, a
	final report for purchase order B098747 by ILC Dover INC. I don't
	know how to get this except from LLNL or ILC Dover. I don't have an
	address for ILC.


    LUNAR PROSPECTOR

    Lunar Exploration Inc. (LEI) is a non-profit corporation working on a
    privately funded lunar polar orbiter. Lunar Prospector is designed to
    perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the
    poles. A set of reference files describing the project is available in

	ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/LEI/*


    LUNAR SCIENCE AND ACTIVITIES

    Grant H Heiken, David T Vaniman, and Bevan M French (editors), "Lunar
    Sourcebook, A User's Guide to the Moon", Cambridge University Press
    1991, ISBN 0-521-33444-6; hardcover; expensive. A one-volume
    encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the Moon, reviewing
    current knowledge in considerable depth, with copious references. Heavy
    emphasis on geology, but a lot more besides, including considerable
    discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to
    future mission design. *The* reference book for the Moon; all others are
    obsolete.

    Wendell Mendell (ed), "Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st
    Century", $15. "Every serious student of lunar bases *must* have this
    book" - Bill Higgins. Available from:

	Lunar and Planetary Institute
	3303 NASA Road One
	Houston, TX 77058-4399
	If you want to order books, call (713)486-2172.

    Thomas A. Mutch, "Geology of the Moon: A Stratigraphic View", Princeton
    University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
    including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
    various Orbiters.


    ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES

    A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
    available by anonymous FTP in:

	ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites


    SPACECRAFT MODELS

    "Space in Miniature #2: Gemini" by
	Michael J. Mackowski
	1621 Waterwood Lane, St. Louis, MO 63146
	$7.50

    Only 34pp but enough pictures & diagrams to interest more than just the
    modelling community, I feel.

    Marco's Miniatures of Dracut, Mass. have produced a 1/144 Skylab in an
    edition of 500 & a 1/48 Lunar Rover (same scale as Monogram and Revell
    Lunar Modules) in a similar edition. Prices are $45 for Skylab, $24 for
    LRV. Check with them for postage etc. I have no connection with them,
    but have found their service to be good and their stock of rare/old kits
    *is* impressive. Prices range from reasonable ($35 for Monogram 1/32
    scale Apollo CSM with cutaway details) to spectacular ($145 for Airfix
    Vostok).

	 Four Star Collectibles
	 P.O. Box 658
	 Dracut Mass 01826, USA.
	 (508)-957-0695.

    Voyager, HST, Viking, Lunar Rover etc. kits from:

	Lunar Models
	5120 Grisham
	Rowlett, Texas 75088
	(214)-475-4230

    As reviewed by Bob Kaplow:

	Peter Alway's book "Scale Model Rocketry" is now available. Mine
	arrived in the mail earlier this week. To get your own copy, send
	$19.95 + $2.50 s/h ($22.45 total) to:

			Peter Alway
			2830 Pittsfield
			Ann Arbor, MI 48104

	The book includes information on collecting scale data, construction
	of scale models, and several handy tables. Appendicies include plans
	for 3 sport scale models, a 1:9.22 D Region Tomahawk (BT50), a 1/40
	V-2 (BT60), and a 1/9.16 Aerobee 150A (BT55/60).

	I've only begun to study the book, but it certainly will be a
	valuable data source for many modellers. Most vehicles include
	several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the
	rocket, various specs including "NAR" engine classification, along
	with a dimensioned drawing, color layouts & paint pattern, and a
	black & white photograph.

	The vehicles included are the Aerobee 150A, Aerobee 300, Aerobee Hi,
	Arcas, Asp, Astrobee 1500, Astrobee D, Atlas Centaur, Atlas-Agena,
	Atlas-Score, Baby WAC, D-Region Tomahawk, Deacon Rockoon, Delta B,
	Delta E, Gemini-Titan II, Iris, Javelin, Juno 1, Juno 2, Little Joe
	1, Little Joe 2, Mercury-Atlas, Mercury-Redstone, Nike-Apache,
	Nike-Asp, Nike-Cajun, Nike-Deacon, Nike-Tomahawk, RAM B, Saturn 1
	Block 1, Saturn 1 Block 2, Saturn 1B, Saturn 5, Scout, Standard
	Aerobee, Terrapin, Thor-Able, Titan III C, Titan III E, Trailblazer
	1, V-2, Vanguard, Viking Model 1, Viking Model 2, and Wac Corporal.


    ROCKET PROPULSION

	George P. Sutton, "Rocket Propulsion Elements", 5th edn,
	Wiley-Interscience 1986, ISBN 0-471-80027-9. Pricey textbook. The
	best (nearly the only) modern introduction to the technical side of
	rocketry. A good place to start if you want to know the details. Not
	for the math-shy. Straight chemical rockets, essentially nothing on
	more advanced propulsion (although earlier editions reportedly had
	some coverage).

	Dieter K. Huzel and David H. Huang, "Design of Liquid Propellant
	Rocket Engines", NASA SP-125.
	NTIS N71-29405		PC A20/MF A01	1971  461p
	Out of print; reproductions may be obtained through the NTIS
	(expensive). The complete and authoritative guide to designing
	liquid-fuel engines. Reference #1 in most chapters of Sutton. Heavy
	emphasis on practical issues, what works and what doesn't, what the
	typical values of the fudge factors are. Stiff reading, massive
	detail; written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers.


    SPACECRAFT DESIGN

	Brij N. Agrawal, "Design of Geosynchronous Spacecraft",
	Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-200114-4.

	James R. Wertz ed, "Spacecraft Attitude Determination and
	Control", Kluwer, ISBN 90-277-1204-2.

	P.R.K. Chetty, "Satellite Technology and its Applications",
	McGraw-Hill, ISBN 0-8306-9688-1.

	James R. Wertz and Wiley J. Larson (editors), "Space Mission
	Analysis and Design", Kluwer Academic Publishers
	(Dordrecht/Boston/London) 1991, ISBN 0-7923-0971-5 (paperback), or
	0-7923-0970-7 (hardback).

	    This looks at system-level design of a spacecraft, rather than
	    detailed design. 23 chapters, 4 appendices, about 430 pages. It
	    leads the reader through the mission design and system-level
	    design of a fictitious earth-observation satellite, to
	    illustrate the principles that it tries to convey. Warning:
	    although the book is chock-full of many useful reference tables,
	    some of the numbers in at least one of those tables (launch
	    costs for various launchers) appear to be quite wrong. Can be
	    ordered by telephone, using a credit card; Kluwer's phone number
	    is (617)-871-6600. Cost $34.50.


    ESOTERIC PROPULSION SCHEMES (SOLAR SAILS, LASERS, FUSION...)

    This needs more and more up-to-date references, but it's a start.

    ANTIMATTER:

	"Antiproton Annihilation Propulsion", Robert Forward
	    AFRPL TR-85-034 from the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory
	    (AFRPL/XRX, Stop 24, Edwards Air Force Base, CA 93523-5000).
	    NTIS AD-A160 734/0	   PC A10/MF A01
	    PC => Paper copy, A10 => $US57.90 -- or maybe Price Code?
	    MF => MicroFiche, A01 => $US13.90

	    Technical study on making, holding, and using antimatter for
	    near-term (30-50 years) propulsion systems. Excellent
	    bibliography. Forward is the best-known proponent
	    of antimatter.

	    This also may be available as UDR-TR-85-55 from the contractor,
	    the University of Dayton Research Institute, and DTIC AD-A160
	    from the Defense Technical Information Center, Defense Logistics
	    Agency, Cameron Station, Alexandria, VA 22304-6145. And it's
	    also available from the NTIS, with yet another number.

	"Advanced Space Propulsion Study, Antiproton and Beamed Power
	    Propulsion", Robert Forward

	    AFAL TR-87-070 from the Air Force Astronautics Laboratory, DTIC
	    #AD-A189 218.
	    NTIS AD-A189 218/1	  PC A10/MF A01

	    Summarizes the previous paper, goes into detail on beamed power
	    systems including " 1) pellet, microwave, and laser beamed power
	    systems for intersteller transport; 2) a design for a
	    near-relativistic laser-pushed lightsail using near-term laser
	    technology; 3) a survey of laser thermal propulsion, tether
	    transportation systems, antiproton annihilation propulsion,
	    exotic applications of solar sails, and laser-pushed
	    interstellar lightsails; 4) the status of antiproton
	    annihilation propulsion as of 1986; and 5) the prospects for
	    obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons." Again,
	    there is an extensive bibliography.

	    "Application of Antimatter - Electric Power to Interstellar
	    Propulsion", G. D. Nordley, JBIS Interstellar Studies issue of
	    6/90.

    BUSSARD RAMJETS AND RELATED METHODS:

	G. L. Matloff and A. J. Fennelly, "Interstellar Applications and
	Limitations of Several Electrostatic/Electromagnetic Ion Collection
	Techniques", JBIS 30 (1977):213-222

	N. H. Langston, "The Erosion of Interstellar Drag Screens", JBIS 26
	(1973): 481-484

	C. Powell, "Flight Dynamics of the Ram-Augmented Interstellar
	Rocket", JBIS 28 (1975):553-562

	A. R. Martin, "The Effects of Drag on Relativistic Spacefight", JBIS
	25 (1972):643-652

    FUSION:

	"A Laser Fusion Rocket for Interplanetary Propulsion", Roderick Hyde,
	LLNL report UCRL-88857. (Contact the Technical Information Dept. at
	Livermore)

	    Fusion Pellet design: Fuel selection. Energy loss mechanisms.
	    Pellet compression metrics. Thrust Chamber: Magnetic nozzle.
	    Shielding. Tritium breeding. Thermal modeling. Fusion Driver
	    (lasers, particle beams, etc): Heat rejection. Vehicle Summary:
	    Mass estimates. Vehicle Performance: Interstellar travel
	    required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusion's capability.
	    Interplanetary missions are limited by power/weight ratio.
	    Trajectory modeling. Typical mission profiles. References,
	    including the 1978 report in JBIS, "Project Daedalus", and
	    several on ICF and driver technology.

	"Fusion as Electric Propulsion", Robert W. Bussard, Journal of
	Propulsion and Power, Vol. 6, No. 5, Sept.-Oct. 1990

	    Fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion
	    systems, with propulsion thrust-power-input-power ratio (the
	    thrust-power "gain" G(t)) much greater than unity. Gain values
	    of conventional (solar, fission) electric propulsion systems are
	    always quite small (e.g., G(t)<0.8). With these, "high-thrust"
	    interplanetary flight is not possible, because system
	    acceleration (a(t)) capabilities are always less than the local
	    gravitational acceleration. In contrast, gain values 50-100
	    times higher are found for some fusion concepts, which offer
	    "high-thrust" flight capability. One performance example shows a
	    53.3 day (34.4 powered; 18.9 coast), one-way transit time with
	    19% payload for a single-stage Earth/Mars vehicle. Another shows
	    the potential for high acceleration (a(t)=0.55g(o)) flight in
	    Earth/moon space.

	"The QED Engine System: Direct Electric Fusion-Powered Systems for
	Aerospace Flight Propulsion" by Robert W. Bussard, EMC2-1190-03,
	available from Energy/Matter Conversion Corp., 9100 A. Center
	Street, Manassas, VA 22110.

	    [This is an introduction to the application of Bussard's version
	    of the Farnsworth/Hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion
	    technology to propulsion. 1500<Isp<5000 sec. Farnsworth/Hirsch
	    demonstrated a 10**10 neutron flux with their device back in
	    1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising
	    stability of the Soviet Tokamak. Hirsch, responsible for the
	    panic, has recently recanted and is back working on QED. -- Jim
	    Bowery]

	"PLASMAKtm Star Power for Energy Intensive Space Applications", by
	Paul M. Koloc, Eight ANS Topical Meeting on Technology of Fusion
	Energy, special issue FUSION TECHNOLOGY, March 1989.

	    Aneutronic energy (fusion with little or negligible neutron
	    flux) requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times
	    larger than can be delivered by current approaches. If plasma
	    pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds
	    could be achieved in aneutronic fuels, then high power densities
	    and very compact, realtively clean burning engines for space and
	    other special applications would be at hand. The PLASMAKtm
	    innovation will make this possible; its unique pressure
	    efficient structure, exceptional stability, fluid-mechanically
	    compressible Mantle and direct inductive MHD electric power
	    conversion advantages are described. Peak burn densities of tens
	    of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the
	    multi-gigawatt electric output size. Engineering advantages
	    indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost. [I
	    strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously. Bob
	    Hirsch, the primary proponent of the Tokamak, has recently
	    declared Koloc's PLASMAKtm precursor, the spheromak, to be one
	    of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather
	    than Tokamak. Aside from the preceeding appeal to authority, the
	    PLASMAKtm looks like it finally models ball-lightning with solid
	    MHD physics. -- Jim Bowery]

    ION DRIVES:

	Retrieve files pub/SPACE/SPACELINK/6.5.2.* from the Ames SPACE
	archive; these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the
	SERT I and II missions, which flight-tested cesium ion thrusters in
	the 1960s and 70s. There are numerous references.

    MASS DRIVERS (COILGUNS, RAILGUNS):

	IEEE Transactions on Magnetics (for example, v. 27 no. 1, January
	1991 issue). Every so often they publish the proceedings of the
	Symposium on Electromagnetic Launcher Technology, including hundreds
	of papers on the subject. It's a good look at the state of the art,
	though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners. Anybody know some
	good review papers?

    NUCLEAR ROCKETS (FISSION):

	"Technical Notes on Nuclear Rockets", by Bruce W. Knight and Donald
	Kingsbury, unpublished. May be available from: Donald Kingsbury,
	Math Dept., McGill University, PO Box 6070, Station A, Montreal,
	Quebec M3C 3G1 Canada.

    SOLAR SAILS:

	Starsailing. Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel. Louis Friedman,
	Wiley, New York, 1988, 146 pp., paper $9.95. (Not very technical,
	but an adequate overview.)

	"Roundtrip Interstellar Travel Using Laser-Pushed Lightsails
	(Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, vol. 21, pp. 187-95, Jan.-Feb.
	1984)

    TETHERS:

	_Tethers and Asteroids for Artificial Gravity Assist in the Solar
	System,_ by P.A. Penzo and H.L. Mayer., _Journal of Spacecraft
	and Rockets_ for Jan-Feb 1986.

	    Details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass
	    can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 km/sec. if
	    it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid.

    GENERAL:

	"Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources", Robert Forward
	    AFPRL TR-83-067.
	    NTIS AD-B088 771/1	  PC A07/MF A01   Dec 83 138p

	    Keywords: Propulsion energy, metastable helium, free-radical
	    hydrogen, solar pumped (sic) plasmas, antiproton annihiliation,
	    ionospheric lasers, solar sails, perforated sails, microwave
	    sails, quantum fluctuations, antimatter rockets... It's a wide,
	    if not deep, look at exotic energy sources which might be useful
	    for space propulsion. It also considers various kinds of laser
	    propulsion, metallic hydrogen, tethers, and unconventional
	    nuclear propulsion. The bibliographic information, pointing to
	    the research on all this stuff, belongs on every daydreamer's
	    shelf.

	Future Magic. Dr. Robert L. Forward, Avon, 1988. ISBN 0-380-89814-4.

	    Nontechnical discussion of tethers, antimatter, gravity control,
	    and even futher-out topics.


    SPY SATELLITES

    *Deep Black*, by William Burrows;
	"best modern general book for spysats."

    1) A Base For Debate: The US Satellite Station at Nurrungar, Des Ball,
    Allen and Unwin Australia, 1987 ISBN 0 04 355027 4 [ covers DSP early
    warning satellites]

    2) Pine Gap: Australia and the US Geostationary Signals intelligence
    satellite program, Des Ball, Allen and Unwin Australia, 1988 ISBN 0 04
    363002 5. [covers RHYOLITE/AQUACADE, CHALET/VORTEX, and MAGNUM signals
    intelligence satellites]

    3) Guardians: Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites, Curtis Peebles, 1987,
    Ian Allan, ISBN 0 7110 17654 [ good on MOL, military Salyut and Soviet
    satellites, less so on others. Tends to believe what he's told so flaws
    in discussion of DSP, RHYOLITE et al..]

    4) America's Secret Eyes In Space: The Keyhole Spy Satellite Program,
    Jeffrey Richelson, 1990, Harper and Row, ISBN 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class
    of its own, *the* historical reference on the KEYHOLE satellites]

    5) Secret Sentries in Space, Philip J Klass, 1971.
	"long out of print but well worth a look"


    SPACE SHUTTLE COMPUTER SYSTEMS

    %J Communications of the ACM
    %V 27
    %N 9
    %D September 1984
    %K Special issue on space [shuttle] computers

    %A Myron Kayton
    %T Avionics for Manned Spacecraft
    %J IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems
    %V 25
    %N 6
    %D November 1989
    %P 786-827

    Other various AIAA and IEEE publications.

    Computers in Spaceflight: The NASA Experience
    James E.  Tomayko
    1988?


    SETI COMPUTATION (SIGNAL PROCESSING)

    %A D. K. Cullers
    %A Ivan R. Linscott
    %A Bernard M. Oliver
    %T Signal Processing in SETI
    %J Communications of the ACM
    %V 28
    %N 11
    %D November 1984
    %P 1151-1163
    %K CR Categories and Subject Descriptors: D.4.1 [Operating Systems]:
    Process Management - concurrency; I.5.4 [Pattern Recognition]:
    Applications - signal processing; J.2 [Phsyical Sciences and Engineering]:
    astronomy
    General Terms: Design
    Additional Key Words and Phrases: digital Fourier transforms,
    finite impulse-response filters, interstellar communications,
    Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence, signal detection,
    spectrum analysis


    AMATEUR SATELLIES & WEATHER SATELLITES

    A fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite
    photos is available from the Ames SPACE archive in
    pub/SPACE/FAQ/WeatherPhotos.

    The American Radio Relay League publication service offers the following
    references (also see the section on AMSAT in the space groups segment of
    the FAQ):

	ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook,		#3185, $20
	ARRL Weather Satellite Handbook,		#3193, $20
	IBM-PC software for Weather Satellite Handbook, #3290, $10

	AMSAT NA 5th Space Symposium,			#0739, $12
	AMSAT NA 6th Space Symposium,			#2219, $12

	Shipping is extra.

    The American Radio Relay League
    Publications Department
    225 Main Street
    Newington, CT 06111
    (203)-666-1541


    TIDES

    Srinivas Bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides, available from the
    Ames SPACE archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/Tides. It covers the following
    areas:

	- 2-D Example of Tidal Deformation
	- Treatment of Tidal Fields in Practice
	- Long term evolution of the Earth-Moon system under tides

    The writeup refers to the following texts:

	"Geophysical Geodesy" by K. Lambeck
	"Tides of the planet Earth" by P. Melchior

NEXT: FAQ #6/15 - Constants and equations for calculations

after prepro  Subject Space FAQ 0515  References
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195644 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 665

Archivename spacereferences
Lastmodified Date 930401 143921 

REFERENCES ON SPECIFIC AREAS

    PUBLISHERS OF SPACEASTRONOMY MATERIAL

    Astronomical Society of the Pacific
    1290 24th Avenue
    San Francisco CA 94122

	More expensive but better organized slide sets

    Cambridge University Press
    32 East 57th Street
    New York NY 10022

    CrawfordPeters Aeronautica
    PO Box 152528
    San Diego CA 92115
    619 2873933

	An excellent source of all kinds of space publications They publish
	a number of catalogs including
	    Aviation and Space 19451962
	    Aviation and Space 19621990
	    Space and Related Titles

    European Southern Observatory
    Information and Photographic Service
    Dr RM West
    Karl Scharzschild Strasse 2
    D8046 Garching bei Munchen
    FRG

	Slide sets posters photographs conference proceedings

    Finley Holiday Film Corporation
    12607 East Philadelphia Street
    Whittier California 90601
    2139453325
    800FILMS07

	Wide selection of Apollo Shuttle Viking and Voyager slides at 50
	centsslide Call for a catalog

    Hansen Planetarium Utah

	Said to hold sales on old slide sets Look in Sky  Telescope
	for contact info

    Lunar and Planetary Institute
    3303 NASA Road One
    Houston TX 770584399

	Technical geologyoriented slide sets with supporting
	booklets

    John Wiley  Sons
    605 Third Avenue
    New York NY 101580012

    Sky Publishing Corporation
    PO Box 9111
    Belmont MA  021789111

	Offers Sky Catalogue 20000 on PC floppy with information
	including parallax for 45000 stars

    Roger Wheate
    Geography Dept
    University of Calgary Alberta
    Canada T2N 1N4
    4032204892
    4032827298 FAX
    wheateuncamultbitnet

	Offers a 40slide set called Mapping the Planets illustrating
	recent work in planetary cartography comes with a booklet and
	information on getting your own copies of the maps 50 Canadian
	shipping included

    Superintendent of Documents
    US Government Printing Office
    Washington DC 20402

    Univelt Inc
    P O Box 28130
    San Diego Ca 92128

	Publishers for the American Astronomical Society

    US Naval Observatory
	2026531079 USNO Bulletin Board via modem
	2026531507 General

    WillmannBell
    PO Box 35025
    Richmond Virginia 23235 USA
    8043207016 95 EST MF


    CAREERS IN THE SPACE INDUSTRY

    In 1990 the Princeton Planetary Society published the first edition of
    Space Jobs The Guide to Careers in SpaceRelated Fields The
    publication was enormously successful we distributed 2000 copies to
    space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in
    Great Britain Australia and Ecuador Due to the tremendous response to
    the first edition PPS has published an expanded uptodate second
    edition of the guide

    The 40page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and fulltime job
    opportunities as well as graduate school programs The second edition of
    Space Jobs features strategies for entering the space field and
    describes positions at consulting and engineering firms NASA and
    nonprofit organizations The expanded special section on graduate
    schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing
    to space policy Additional sections include tips on becoming an
    astronaut and listings of NASA Space Grant Fellowships and Consortia as
    well as NASA Centers for the Commercial Development of Space

    To order send check or money order made payable to Princeton Planetary
    Society for 4 per copy plus 1 per copy for shipping and handling
    nonUS customers send an International Money Order payable in US
    dollars to

    Princeton Planetary Society
    315 West College
    Princeton University
    Princeton NJ  08544


    DCX SINGLESTAGE TO ORBIT SSTO PROGRAM

    SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
    suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
    mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
    orbit vehicle called Delta Clipper is uncertain at present

    An collection of pictures and files relating to DCX is available by
    anonymous FTP or email server in the directory

	bongoccutexasedupubdeltaclipper

    Chris W Johnson chrisjemxccutexasedu maintains the archive


    HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON

    Official names are decided by committees of the International
    Astronomical Union and are not for sale There are purely commercial
    organizations which will for a fee send you pretty certificates and
    star maps describing where to find your star These organizations have
    absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they
    assign are not used by anyone else Its also likely that you wont be
    able to see your star without binoculars or a telescope See the back
    pages of Astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact
    info one such organization may be found at

	International Star Registry
	34523 Wilson Road
	Ingleside IL 60041

    This is not an endorsement of ISR


    LLNL GREAT EXPLORATION

    The LLNL Great Exploration a plan for an onthecheap space station
    Lunar base and Mars mission using inflatable space structures excited
    a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time Some
    references cited during net discussion were

	Avation Week Jan 22 1990 for an article on the overall Great
	Exploration

	NASA Assessment of the LLNL Space Exploration Proposal and LLNL
	Responses by Dr Lowell Wood LLNL Doc No SS 909 Their address
	is PO Box 808 Livermore CA 94550 the NASA authors are unknown

	Briefing slides of a presentation to the NRC last December may be
	available Write LLNL and ask

	Conceptual Design Study for Modular Inflatable Space Structures a
	final report for purchase order B098747 by ILC Dover INC I dont
	know how to get this except from LLNL or ILC Dover I dont have an
	address for ILC


    LUNAR PROSPECTOR

    Lunar Exploration Inc LEI is a nonprofit corporation working on a
    privately funded lunar polar orbiter Lunar Prospector is designed to
    perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the
    poles A set of reference files describing the project is available in

	amesarcnasagovpubSPACELEI


    LUNAR SCIENCE AND ACTIVITIES

    Grant H Heiken David T Vaniman and Bevan M French editors Lunar
    Sourcebook A Users Guide to the Moon Cambridge University Press
    1991 ISBN 0521334446 hardcover expensive A onevolume
    encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the Moon reviewing
    current knowledge in considerable depth with copious references Heavy
    emphasis on geology but a lot more besides including considerable
    discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to
    future mission design The reference book for the Moon all others are
    obsolete

    Wendell Mendell ed Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st
    Century 15 Every serious student of lunar bases must have this
    book  Bill Higgins Available from

	Lunar and Planetary Institute
	3303 NASA Road One
	Houston TX 770584399
	If you want to order books call 7134862172

    Thomas A Mutch Geology of the Moon A Stratigraphic View Princeton
    University Press 1970 Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions
    including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
    various Orbiters


    ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES

    A list of Earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is
    available by anonymous FTP in

	amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQSatellites


    SPACECRAFT MODELS

    Space in Miniature 2 Gemini by
	Michael J Mackowski
	1621 Waterwood Lane St Louis MO 63146
	750

    Only 34pp but enough pictures  diagrams to interest more than just the
    modelling community I feel

    Marcos Miniatures of Dracut Mass have produced a 1144 Skylab in an
    edition of 500  a 148 Lunar Rover same scale as Monogram and Revell
    Lunar Modules in a similar edition Prices are 45 for Skylab 24 for
    LRV Check with them for postage etc I have no connection with them
    but have found their service to be good and their stock of rareold kits
    is impressive Prices range from reasonable 35 for Monogram 132
    scale Apollo CSM with cutaway details to spectacular 145 for Airfix
    Vostok

	 Four Star Collectibles
	 PO Box 658
	 Dracut Mass 01826 USA
	 5089570695

    Voyager HST Viking Lunar Rover etc kits from

	Lunar Models
	5120 Grisham
	Rowlett Texas 75088
	2144754230

    As reviewed by Bob Kaplow

	Peter Always book Scale Model Rocketry is now available Mine
	arrived in the mail earlier this week To get your own copy send
	1995  250 sh 2245 total to

			Peter Alway
			2830 Pittsfield
			Ann Arbor MI 48104

	The book includes information on collecting scale data construction
	of scale models and several handy tables Appendicies include plans
	for 3 sport scale models a 1922 D Region Tomahawk BT50 a 140
	V2 BT60 and a 1916 Aerobee 150A BT5560

	Ive only begun to study the book but it certainly will be a
	valuable data source for many modellers Most vehicles include
	several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the
	rocket various specs including NAR engine classification along
	with a dimensioned drawing color layouts  paint pattern and a
	black  white photograph

	The vehicles included are the Aerobee 150A Aerobee 300 Aerobee Hi
	Arcas Asp Astrobee 1500 Astrobee D Atlas Centaur AtlasAgena
	AtlasScore Baby WAC DRegion Tomahawk Deacon Rockoon Delta B
	Delta E GeminiTitan II Iris Javelin Juno 1 Juno 2 Little Joe
	1 Little Joe 2 MercuryAtlas MercuryRedstone NikeApache
	NikeAsp NikeCajun NikeDeacon NikeTomahawk RAM B Saturn 1
	Block 1 Saturn 1 Block 2 Saturn 1B Saturn 5 Scout Standard
	Aerobee Terrapin ThorAble Titan III C Titan III E Trailblazer
	1 V2 Vanguard Viking Model 1 Viking Model 2 and Wac Corporal


    ROCKET PROPULSION

	George P Sutton Rocket Propulsion Elements 5th edn
	WileyInterscience 1986 ISBN 0471800279 Pricey textbook The
	best nearly the only modern introduction to the technical side of
	rocketry A good place to start if you want to know the details Not
	for the mathshy Straight chemical rockets essentially nothing on
	more advanced propulsion although earlier editions reportedly had
	some coverage

	Dieter K Huzel and David H Huang Design of Liquid Propellant
	Rocket Engines NASA SP125
	NTIS N7129405		PC A20MF A01	1971  461p
	Out of print reproductions may be obtained through the NTIS
	expensive The complete and authoritative guide to designing
	liquidfuel engines Reference 1 in most chapters of Sutton Heavy
	emphasis on practical issues what works and what doesnt what the
	typical values of the fudge factors are Stiff reading massive
	detail written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers


    SPACECRAFT DESIGN

	Brij N Agrawal Design of Geosynchronous Spacecraft
	PrenticeHall ISBN 0132001144

	James R Wertz ed Spacecraft Attitude Determination and
	Control Kluwer ISBN 9027712042

	PRK Chetty Satellite Technology and its Applications
	McGrawHill ISBN 0830696881

	James R Wertz and Wiley J Larson editors Space Mission
	Analysis and Design Kluwer Academic Publishers
	DordrechtBostonLondon 1991 ISBN 0792309715 paperback or
	0792309707 hardback

	    This looks at systemlevel design of a spacecraft rather than
	    detailed design 23 chapters 4 appendices about 430 pages It
	    leads the reader through the mission design and systemlevel
	    design of a fictitious earthobservation satellite to
	    illustrate the principles that it tries to convey Warning
	    although the book is chockfull of many useful reference tables
	    some of the numbers in at least one of those tables launch
	    costs for various launchers appear to be quite wrong Can be
	    ordered by telephone using a credit card Kluwers phone number
	    is 6178716600 Cost 3450


    ESOTERIC PROPULSION SCHEMES SOLAR SAILS LASERS FUSION

    This needs more and more uptodate references but its a start

    ANTIMATTER

	Antiproton Annihilation Propulsion Robert Forward
	    AFRPL TR85034 from the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory
	    AFRPLXRX Stop 24 Edwards Air Force Base CA 935235000
	    NTIS ADA160 7340	   PC A10MF A01
	    PC  Paper copy A10  US5790  or maybe Price Code
	    MF  MicroFiche A01  US1390

	    Technical study on making holding and using antimatter for
	    nearterm 3050 years propulsion systems Excellent
	    bibliography Forward is the bestknown proponent
	    of antimatter

	    This also may be available as UDRTR8555 from the contractor
	    the University of Dayton Research Institute and DTIC ADA160
	    from the Defense Technical Information Center Defense Logistics
	    Agency Cameron Station Alexandria VA 223046145 And its
	    also available from the NTIS with yet another number

	Advanced Space Propulsion Study Antiproton and Beamed Power
	    Propulsion Robert Forward

	    AFAL TR87070 from the Air Force Astronautics Laboratory DTIC
	    ADA189 218
	    NTIS ADA189 2181	  PC A10MF A01

	    Summarizes the previous paper goes into detail on beamed power
	    systems including  1 pellet microwave and laser beamed power
	    systems for intersteller transport 2 a design for a
	    nearrelativistic laserpushed lightsail using nearterm laser
	    technology 3 a survey of laser thermal propulsion tether
	    transportation systems antiproton annihilation propulsion
	    exotic applications of solar sails and laserpushed
	    interstellar lightsails 4 the status of antiproton
	    annihilation propulsion as of 1986 and 5 the prospects for
	    obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons Again
	    there is an extensive bibliography

	    Application of Antimatter  Electric Power to Interstellar
	    Propulsion G D Nordley JBIS Interstellar Studies issue of
	    690

    BUSSARD RAMJETS AND RELATED METHODS

	G L Matloff and A J Fennelly Interstellar Applications and
	Limitations of Several ElectrostaticElectromagnetic Ion Collection
	Techniques JBIS 30 1977213222

	N H Langston The Erosion of Interstellar Drag Screens JBIS 26
	1973 481484

	C Powell Flight Dynamics of the RamAugmented Interstellar
	Rocket JBIS 28 1975553562

	A R Martin The Effects of Drag on Relativistic Spacefight JBIS
	25 1972643652

    FUSION

	A Laser Fusion Rocket for Interplanetary Propulsion Roderick Hyde
	LLNL report UCRL88857 Contact the Technical Information Dept at
	Livermore

	    Fusion Pellet design Fuel selection Energy loss mechanisms
	    Pellet compression metrics Thrust Chamber Magnetic nozzle
	    Shielding Tritium breeding Thermal modeling Fusion Driver
	    lasers particle beams etc Heat rejection Vehicle Summary
	    Mass estimates Vehicle Performance Interstellar travel
	    required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusions capability
	    Interplanetary missions are limited by powerweight ratio
	    Trajectory modeling Typical mission profiles References
	    including the 1978 report in JBIS Project Daedalus and
	    several on ICF and driver technology

	Fusion as Electric Propulsion Robert W Bussard Journal of
	Propulsion and Power Vol 6 No 5 SeptOct 1990

	    Fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion
	    systems with propulsion thrustpowerinputpower ratio the
	    thrustpower gain Gt much greater than unity Gain values
	    of conventional solar fission electric propulsion systems are
	    always quite small eg Gt08 With these highthrust
	    interplanetary flight is not possible because system
	    acceleration at capabilities are always less than the local
	    gravitational acceleration In contrast gain values 50100
	    times higher are found for some fusion concepts which offer
	    highthrust flight capability One performance example shows a
	    533 day 344 powered 189 coast oneway transit time with
	    19 payload for a singlestage EarthMars vehicle Another shows
	    the potential for high acceleration at055go flight in
	    Earthmoon space

	The QED Engine System Direct Electric FusionPowered Systems for
	Aerospace Flight Propulsion by Robert W Bussard EMC2119003
	available from EnergyMatter Conversion Corp 9100 A Center
	Street Manassas VA 22110

	    [This is an introduction to the application of Bussards version
	    of the FarnsworthHirsch electrostatic confinement fusion
	    technology to propulsion 1500Isp5000 sec FarnsworthHirsch
	    demonstrated a 1010 neutron flux with their device back in
	    1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising
	    stability of the Soviet Tokamak Hirsch responsible for the
	    panic has recently recanted and is back working on QED  Jim
	    Bowery]

	PLASMAKtm Star Power for Energy Intensive Space Applications by
	Paul M Koloc Eight ANS Topical Meeting on Technology of Fusion
	Energy special issue FUSION TECHNOLOGY March 1989

	    Aneutronic energy fusion with little or negligible neutron
	    flux requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times
	    larger than can be delivered by current approaches If plasma
	    pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds
	    could be achieved in aneutronic fuels then high power densities
	    and very compact realtively clean burning engines for space and
	    other special applications would be at hand The PLASMAKtm
	    innovation will make this possible its unique pressure
	    efficient structure exceptional stability fluidmechanically
	    compressible Mantle and direct inductive MHD electric power
	    conversion advantages are described Peak burn densities of tens
	    of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the
	    multigigawatt electric output size Engineering advantages
	    indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost [I
	    strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously Bob
	    Hirsch the primary proponent of the Tokamak has recently
	    declared Kolocs PLASMAKtm precursor the spheromak to be one
	    of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather
	    than Tokamak Aside from the preceeding appeal to authority the
	    PLASMAKtm looks like it finally models balllightning with solid
	    MHD physics  Jim Bowery]

    ION DRIVES

	Retrieve files pubSPACESPACELINK652 from the Ames SPACE
	archive these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the
	SERT I and II missions which flighttested cesium ion thrusters in
	the 1960s and 70s There are numerous references

    MASS DRIVERS COILGUNS RAILGUNS

	IEEE Transactions on Magnetics for example v 27 no 1 January
	1991 issue Every so often they publish the proceedings of the
	Symposium on Electromagnetic Launcher Technology including hundreds
	of papers on the subject Its a good look at the state of the art
	though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners Anybody know some
	good review papers

    NUCLEAR ROCKETS FISSION

	Technical Notes on Nuclear Rockets by Bruce W Knight and Donald
	Kingsbury unpublished May be available from Donald Kingsbury
	Math Dept McGill University PO Box 6070 Station A Montreal
	Quebec M3C 3G1 Canada

    SOLAR SAILS

	Starsailing Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel Louis Friedman
	Wiley New York 1988 146 pp paper 995 Not very technical
	but an adequate overview

	Roundtrip Interstellar Travel Using LaserPushed Lightsails
	Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets vol 21 pp 18795 JanFeb
	1984

    TETHERS

	_Tethers and Asteroids for Artificial Gravity Assist in the Solar
	System_ by PA Penzo and HL Mayer _Journal of Spacecraft
	and Rockets_ for JanFeb 1986

	    Details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass
	    can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 kmsec if
	    it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid

    GENERAL

	Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources Robert Forward
	    AFPRL TR83067
	    NTIS ADB088 7711	  PC A07MF A01   Dec 83 138p

	    Keywords Propulsion energy metastable helium freeradical
	    hydrogen solar pumped sic plasmas antiproton annihiliation
	    ionospheric lasers solar sails perforated sails microwave
	    sails quantum fluctuations antimatter rockets Its a wide
	    if not deep look at exotic energy sources which might be useful
	    for space propulsion It also considers various kinds of laser
	    propulsion metallic hydrogen tethers and unconventional
	    nuclear propulsion The bibliographic information pointing to
	    the research on all this stuff belongs on every daydreamers
	    shelf

	Future Magic Dr Robert L Forward Avon 1988 ISBN 0380898144

	    Nontechnical discussion of tethers antimatter gravity control
	    and even futherout topics


    SPY SATELLITES

    Deep Black by William Burrows
	best modern general book for spysats

    1 A Base For Debate The US Satellite Station at Nurrungar Des Ball
    Allen and Unwin Australia 1987 ISBN 0 04 355027 4 [ covers DSP early
    warning satellites]

    2 Pine Gap Australia and the US Geostationary Signals intelligence
    satellite program Des Ball Allen and Unwin Australia 1988 ISBN 0 04
    363002 5 [covers RHYOLITEAQUACADE CHALETVORTEX and MAGNUM signals
    intelligence satellites]

    3 Guardians Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites Curtis Peebles 1987
    Ian Allan ISBN 0 7110 17654 [ good on MOL military Salyut and Soviet
    satellites less so on others Tends to believe what hes told so flaws
    in discussion of DSP RHYOLITE et al]

    4 Americas Secret Eyes In Space The Keyhole Spy Satellite Program
    Jeffrey Richelson 1990 Harper and Row ISBN 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class
    of its own the historical reference on the KEYHOLE satellites]

    5 Secret Sentries in Space Philip J Klass 1971
	long out of print but well worth a look


    SPACE SHUTTLE COMPUTER SYSTEMS

    J Communications of the ACM
    V 27
    N 9
    D September 1984
    K Special issue on space [shuttle] computers

    A Myron Kayton
    T Avionics for Manned Spacecraft
    J IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems
    V 25
    N 6
    D November 1989
    P 786827

    Other various AIAA and IEEE publications

    Computers in Spaceflight The NASA Experience
    James E  Tomayko
    1988


    SETI COMPUTATION SIGNAL PROCESSING

    A D K Cullers
    A Ivan R Linscott
    A Bernard M Oliver
    T Signal Processing in SETI
    J Communications of the ACM
    V 28
    N 11
    D November 1984
    P 11511163
    K CR Categories and Subject Descriptors D41 [Operating Systems]
    Process Management  concurrency I54 [Pattern Recognition]
    Applications  signal processing J2 [Phsyical Sciences and Engineering]
    astronomy
    General Terms Design
    Additional Key Words and Phrases digital Fourier transforms
    finite impulseresponse filters interstellar communications
    Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence signal detection
    spectrum analysis


    AMATEUR SATELLIES  WEATHER SATELLITES

    A fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite
    photos is available from the Ames SPACE archive in
    pubSPACEFAQWeatherPhotos

    The American Radio Relay League publication service offers the following
    references also see the section on AMSAT in the space groups segment of
    the FAQ

	ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook		3185 20
	ARRL Weather Satellite Handbook		3193 20
	IBMPC software for Weather Satellite Handbook 3290 10

	AMSAT NA 5th Space Symposium			0739 12
	AMSAT NA 6th Space Symposium			2219 12

	Shipping is extra

    The American Radio Relay League
    Publications Department
    225 Main Street
    Newington CT 06111
    2036661541


    TIDES

    Srinivas Bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides available from the
    Ames SPACE archive in pubSPACEFAQTides It covers the following
    areas

	 2D Example of Tidal Deformation
	 Treatment of Tidal Fields in Practice
	 Long term evolution of the EarthMoon system under tides

    The writeup refers to the following texts

	Geophysical Geodesy by K Lambeck
	Tides of the planet Earth by P Melchior

NEXT FAQ 615  Constants and equations for calculations

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: sgi
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qlef4INN8dn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> [...]
|> >>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
|> >>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
|> >That's not true.  I gave you two examples.  One was the rather
|> >pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
|> >arrived.  The other was the system of social ranks that were used
|> >in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
|> >of the population.
|> 
|> These don't seem like "little things" to me.  At least, they are orders
|> worse than the motto.  Do you think that the motto is a "little thing"
|> that will lead to worse things?

You don't think these are little things because with twenty-twenty
hindsight, you know what they led to.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 []
 The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly  People
 said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
 Thats not true  I gave you two examples  One was the rather
 pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
 arrived  The other was the system of social ranks that were used
 in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
 of the population
 
 These dont seem like little things to me  At least they are orders
 worse than the motto  Do you think that the motto is a little thing
 that will lead to worse things

You dont think these are little things because with twentytwenty
hindsight you know what they led to

jon

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 19

In article <healta.140.734925835@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu
(Tammy R Healy) wrote:
> At the time Ezekiel was written, Israel was in apostacy again and if I'm not 
> mistaken, Tyre was about to make war on Israel.  Like I said, the Prince of 
> Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre.  He was a wicked man.  By calling Satan 
> the King of Tyre, Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre.

Tammy, is this all explicitly stated in the bible, or do you assume
that you know that Ezekiel indirectly mentioned? It could have been
another metaphor, for instance Ezekiel was mad at his landlord, so he
talked about him when he wrote about the prince of Tyre.

Sorry, but my interpretation is more mundane, Ezekiel wrote about 
the prince of Tyre when we wrote about the prince of Tyre.
 
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 19

In article  healtasaturnwwcedu
Tammy R Healy wrote
 At the time Ezekiel was written Israel was in apostacy again and if Im not 
 mistaken Tyre was about to make war on Israel  Like I said the Prince of 
 Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre  He was a wicked man  By calling Satan 
 the King of Tyre Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre

Tammy is this all explicitly stated in the bible or do you assume
that you know that Ezekiel indirectly mentioned It could have been
another metaphor for instance Ezekiel was mad at his landlord so he
talked about him when he wrote about the prince of Tyre

Sorry but my interpretation is more mundane Ezekiel wrote about 
the prince of Tyre when we wrote about the prince of Tyre
 
Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Subject: Re: Jewish Settlers Demolish a Mosque in Gaza
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 41

In <C5IwxM.G0z@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:

>In article <kutluk.734797558@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>>Atheists are not
>>mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view, and a
>>minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing.

>  But there are people who say that they are Atheists. If they aren't Atheists,
>what are they?

When the Quran uses the word *din* it means way of individual thinking, behaving,
communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs. This is often
interpreted as the much weaker term religion. 

The atheists are not mentioned in the Quran along with Jews,
Mushriqin, Christians, etc. because the  latter are all din. To have a
din you need a set of beliefs, assumptions, etc, to forma a social
code. For example the Marxist have those, such as History, Conflict,
etc. That they do not put idols (sometimes they did) to represent
those assuptions  does not mean they are any different from the other
Mushriq, or roughly polytheists. 

There cannot be social Atheism, because when there is a community,
that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate 
the society. When they inscribe assumptions, say Nation, or "Progress is 
the natural consequence of Human activity" or "parlamentarian
democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government", however 
they individually insist they do not have gods, from the Quranic point
of view they do. Therefore by definition, atheism does not exist. 
"We are a atheist society" in fact means "we reject the din other than
ours". 

Atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols/gods/dogmas/
suppositions/.. of the society that they part, and in that case that
is a personal deviation of belief, and Quran tells about such
deviations and disbelief. But as I mentioned, from a Quranic point of
looking at things, there is no Atheism in the macro level. 

I think it took more than one minute.

Kutluk

after prepro  From kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven
Subject Re Jewish Settlers Demolish a Mosque in Gaza
Organization Manchester Computing Centre
Lines 41

In  d9bertildtekchalmersse Bertil Jonell writes

In article  kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven writes
Atheists are not
mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view and a
minutes reasoning one can see that there is no such thing

  But there are people who say that they are Atheists If they arent Atheists
what are they

When the Quran uses the word din it means way of individual thinking behaving
communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs This is often
interpreted as the much weaker term religion 

The atheists are not mentioned in the Quran along with Jews
Mushriqin Christians etc because the  latter are all din To have a
din you need a set of beliefs assumptions etc to forma a social
code For example the Marxist have those such as History Conflict
etc That they do not put idols sometimes they did to represent
those assuptions  does not mean they are any different from the other
Mushriq or roughly polytheists 

There cannot be social Atheism because when there is a community
that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate 
the society When they inscribe assumptions say Nation or Progress is 
the natural consequence of Human activity or parlamentarian
democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government however 
they individually insist they do not have gods from the Quranic point
of view they do Therefore by definition atheism does not exist 
We are a atheist society in fact means we reject the din other than
ours 

Atheism can only exist when people reject all the idolsgodsdogmas
suppositions of the society that they part and in that case that
is a personal deviation of belief and Quran tells about such
deviations and disbelief But as I mentioned from a Quranic point of
looking at things there is no Atheism in the macro level 

I think it took more than one minute

Kutluk

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
In-Reply-To: <1pqfic$9s2@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 32

>DATE:   5 Apr 1993 23:32:28 GMT
>FROM:   Jon Livesey <livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com>
>
>In article <114127@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>|> 
>|> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic 
>|> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
>|> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
>|> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
>|> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
>|> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
>|> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
>|> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
>
>Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
>bad acts, people temporarily become atheists?
>
>jon.

Of course B.M. is not incorrect.  He is defending Islam.  When defending
Islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize
you.  But when an atheist uses the same argument he is using "petty sarcasm".  So
B.M. can have his "temporary atheists" whenever he needs them and all the
"temporary atheists" can later say that they were always good Muslims because
they never explicitly rejected Islam.  

Temporary atheism, temporary Islam, temporary marriage.  None of it sticks.  
A teflon religion.  How convenient.  And so easy to clean up after.  But 
then, what would you expect from a bunch of people who can't even agree on 
the phases of the moon?



after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
InReplyTo 1pqfic9s2fidoasdsgicom
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 32

DATE   5 Apr 1993 233228 GMT
FROM   Jon Livesey 

In article 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 
 I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic 
 principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
 that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
 so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
 be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
 to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
 Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
 than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts

Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts people temporarily become atheists

jon

Of course BM is not incorrect  He is defending Islam  When defending
Islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize
you  But when an atheist uses the same argument he is using petty sarcasm  So
BM can have his temporary atheists whenever he needs them and all the
temporary atheists can later say that they were always good Muslims because
they never explicitly rejected Islam  

Temporary atheism temporary Islam temporary marriage  None of it sticks  
A teflon religion  How convenient  And so easy to clean up after  But 
then what would you expect from a bunch of people who cant even agree on 
the phases of the moon



preprocess doc  From: mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Lines: 21

In article <JVIGNEAU.93Apr5182106@cs.ulowell.edu> jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu (Joe Vigneau) writes:
>
>If anything, the BSA has taught me, I don't know, tolerance or something.
>Before I met this guy, I thought all gays were 'faries'.  So, the BSA HAS
>taught me to be an antibigot.

I could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout
back in the 1960s. The issue wasn't gays, but the principles were the
same. Thanks for a well put testimonial. Stan Krieger and his kind who
think this discussion doesn't belong here and his intolerance is the
only acceptable position in scouting should take notice. The BSA has
been hijacked by the religious right, but some of the core values have
survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts
haven't given up. Seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that
scouting is still worth fighting for.

On a cautionary note, you must realize that if your experience with this
camp leader was in the BSA you may be putting him at risk by publicizing
it. Word could leak out to the BSA gestapo.

Bill Mayne

after prepro  From maynepipecsfsuedu William Mayne
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Organization Florida State University Computer Science Department
ReplyTo maynecsfsuedu
Lines 21

In article  jvigneaucsulowelledu Joe Vigneau writes

If anything the BSA has taught me I dont know tolerance or something
Before I met this guy I thought all gays were faries  So the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot

I could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout
back in the 1960s The issue wasnt gays but the principles were the
same Thanks for a well put testimonial Stan Krieger and his kind who
think this discussion doesnt belong here and his intolerance is the
only acceptable position in scouting should take notice The BSA has
been hijacked by the religious right but some of the core values have
survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts
havent given up Seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that
scouting is still worth fighting for

On a cautionary note you must realize that if your experience with this
camp leader was in the BSA you may be putting him at risk by publicizing
it Word could leak out to the BSA gestapo

Bill Mayne

preprocess doc  From: wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu (Wyatt Miler)
Subject: Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 185


Posted to the Internet by wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu
 
000062David42      041493003715
 
             The Lunar Tele-operation Model One (LTM1)
             =========================================
                        By David H. Mitchell
                          March 23, 1993
 
INTRODUCTION:
 
In order to increase public interest in space-based and lunar operations, a
real miniature lunar-like environment is being constructed on which to test
tele-operated models. These models are remotely-controlled by individuals
located world-wide using their personal computers, for EduTainment
purposes.
Not only does this provide a test-bed for simple tele-operation and
tele-presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of
information
on methods of operating in space, including, but not limited to, layout of
a
lunar colony, tele-operating machines for work and play, disseminating
educational information, providing contests and awards for creativity and
achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in
Twenty-First century remote learning methods.
 
Because of the nature of the LTM1 project, people of all ages, interests
and
skills can contribute scenery and murals, models and structures,
interfacing
and electronics, software and graphics. In operation LTM1 is an evolving
playground and laboratory that can be used by children, students and
professionals worldwide. Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at
a participating institution a user is able to tele-operate real models at
the
LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes. Because a real
facility
exists, ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the
construction
of the lunar model, its operation and new features to be added as suggested
by the users themselves.
 
This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups:
 - tele-operations and virtual reality research
 - radio control, model railroad and ham radio operation
 - astronomy and space planetariums and science centers
 - art and theater
 - bbs and online network users
 - software and game developers
 - manufacturers and retailers of model rockets, cars and trains
 - children
 - the child in all of us
 
LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN:
 
A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout. The walls are used
for murals of distant moon mountains, star fields and a view of the earth.
The "floor" is the simulated lunar surface. A global call for contributions
is hereby made for material for the lunar surface, and for the design and
creation of scale models of lunar colony elements, scenery, and
machine-lets.
 
 The LTM1 initial design has 3 tele-operated machinelets:
 1. An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off, hover and land;
 2. A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area; and
 3. A moon-train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface.
 
 Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on
 it. A personal computer digitizes the image (including reducing picture
 content and doing data-compression to allow for minimal images to be sent
 to the operator for control purposes) and also return control signals.
 
The first machinelet to be set up will be the moon-train since model trains
with TV cameras built in are almost off-the-shelf items and control
electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal. The user will
receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their
data link to LTM1.
 
Next, an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a
servo-motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the
SSTO
to be controlled by the operator to take off, hover over the entire lunar
landscape and land.
 
Finally, some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped
bulldozerlets. The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators
worldwide
to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and
takeoff, traveling and doing work. The entire system is based on
commercially
available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the
interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced
ham radio operator and computer hardware/software developers.
 
By taking a graphically oriented communications program (Dmodem) and adding
a tele-operations screen and controls, the necessary user interface can be
provided in under 80 man hours.
 
PLAN OF ACTION:
 
The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by
providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network.
Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction
of the lunar model. Diaspar has, in stock, the electronic tanks that can be
modified and one CCD TV chip. Diaspar also agrees to provide "rail stock"
for the lunar train model. Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical
communications package and modify it for control of the machines-lets.
An initial "ground breaking" with miniature shovels will be performed for
a live photo-session and news conference on April 30, 1993. The initial
models will be put in place. A time-lapse record will be started for
historical purposes. It is not expected that this event will be completely
serious or solemn. The lunar colony will be declared open for additional
building, operations and experiments. A photographer will be present and
the photographs taken will be converted to .gif images for distribution
world-wide to major online networks and bbs's. A press release will be
issued
calling for contributions of ideas, time, talent, materials and scale
models
for the simulated lunar colony.
 
A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then
be
announced. Universities will be invited to participate, the goal being to
find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of
the lunar colony model. Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that
time
the results of the class work will be added to the model. Contributors will
then be able to tele-operate any contributed machine-lets once they return
to
their campus.
 
A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via
conventional means to the media. Any major new tele-operated equipment
addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media.
Having a large, real model space colony will be a very attractive photo
opportunity for the television community. Especially since the "action"
will
be controlled by people all over the world. Science fiction writers will be
invited to issue "challenges" to engineering and human factors students at
universities to build and operate the tele-operated equipment to perform
lunar tasks. Using counter-weight and pulley systems, 1/6 gravity may be
simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges.
 
The long term goal is creating world-wide interest, education,
experimentation
and remote operation of a lunar colony. LTM1 has the potential of being a
long
term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic
example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited
to space EduTainment. All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can
lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars!
 
CONCLUSION:
 
EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment. Anyone who has
ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a
globally available layout for recreation, education and experimentation
purposes. By creating a tele-operated model lunar colony we not only create
world-wide publicity, but also a method of trying new ideas that require
real
(not virtual) skills and open a new method for putting people's minds in
space.
 
 
MOONLIGHTERS:
 
"Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development."
The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work:
David42, Rob47, Dash, Hyson, Jzer0, Vril, Wyatt, The Dark One, Tiggertoo,
The Mad Hatter, Sir Robin, Jogden.
 
Come join the discussion any Friday night from 10:30 to midnight PST in
 
Diaspar Virtual Reality Network. Ideas welcome!
 
Internet telnet to: 192.215.11.1 or diaspar.com
 
(voice)  714-376-1776
(2400bd) 714-376-1200
(9600bd) 714-376-1234
 
Email inquiries to LTM1 project leader Jzer@Hydra.unm.edu
or directly to Jzer0 on Diaspar.


after prepro  From wmilernyxcsduedu Wyatt Miler
Subject Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement
Organization Nyx Public Access Unix  U of Denver MathCS dept
Lines 185


Posted to the Internet by wmilernyxcsduedu
 
000062David42      041493003715
 
             The Lunar Teleoperation Model One LTM1
             
                        By David H Mitchell
                          March 23 1993
 
INTRODUCTION
 
In order to increase public interest in spacebased and lunar operations a
real miniature lunarlike environment is being constructed on which to test
teleoperated models These models are remotelycontrolled by individuals
located worldwide using their personal computers for EduTainment
purposes
Not only does this provide a testbed for simple teleoperation and
telepresence activities but it also provides for the sharing of
information
on methods of operating in space including but not limited to layout of
a
lunar colony teleoperating machines for work and play disseminating
educational information providing contests and awards for creativity and
achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in
TwentyFirst century remote learning methods
 
Because of the nature of the LTM1 project people of all ages interests
and
skills can contribute scenery and murals models and structures
interfacing
and electronics software and graphics In operation LTM1 is an evolving
playground and laboratory that can be used by children students and
professionals worldwide Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at
a participating institution a user is able to teleoperate real models at
the
LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes Because a real
facility
exists ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the
construction
of the lunar model its operation and new features to be added as suggested
by the users themselves
 
This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups
  teleoperations and virtual reality research
  radio control model railroad and ham radio operation
  astronomy and space planetariums and science centers
  art and theater
  bbs and online network users
  software and game developers
  manufacturers and retailers of model rockets cars and trains
  children
  the child in all of us
 
LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN
 
A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout The walls are used
for murals of distant moon mountains star fields and a view of the earth
The floor is the simulated lunar surface A global call for contributions
is hereby made for material for the lunar surface and for the design and
creation of scale models of lunar colony elements scenery and
machinelets
 
 The LTM1 initial design has 3 teleoperated machinelets
 1 An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off hover and land
 2 A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area and
 3 A moontrain which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface
 
 Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on
 it A personal computer digitizes the image including reducing picture
 content and doing datacompression to allow for minimal images to be sent
 to the operator for control purposes and also return control signals
 
The first machinelet to be set up will be the moontrain since model trains
with TV cameras built in are almost offtheshelf items and control
electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal The user will
receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their
data link to LTM1
 
Next an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a
servomotor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the
SSTO
to be controlled by the operator to take off hover over the entire lunar
landscape and land
 
Finally some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped
bulldozerlets The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators
worldwide
to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and
takeoff traveling and doing work The entire system is based on
commercially
available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the
interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced
ham radio operator and computer hardwaresoftware developers
 
By taking a graphically oriented communications program Dmodem and adding
a teleoperations screen and controls the necessary user interface can be
provided in under 80 man hours
 
PLAN OF ACTION
 
The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by
providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network
Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction
of the lunar model Diaspar has in stock the electronic tanks that can be
modified and one CCD TV chip Diaspar also agrees to provide rail stock
for the lunar train model Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical
communications package and modify it for control of the machineslets
An initial ground breaking with miniature shovels will be performed for
a live photosession and news conference on April 30 1993 The initial
models will be put in place A timelapse record will be started for
historical purposes It is not expected that this event will be completely
serious or solemn The lunar colony will be declared open for additional
building operations and experiments A photographer will be present and
the photographs taken will be converted to gif images for distribution
worldwide to major online networks and bbss A press release will be
issued
calling for contributions of ideas time talent materials and scale
models
for the simulated lunar colony
 
A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then
be
announced Universities will be invited to participate the goal being to
find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of
the lunar colony model Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that
time
the results of the class work will be added to the model Contributors will
then be able to teleoperate any contributed machinelets once they return
to
their campus
 
A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via
conventional means to the media Any major new teleoperated equipment
addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media
Having a large real model space colony will be a very attractive photo
opportunity for the television community Especially since the action
will
be controlled by people all over the world Science fiction writers will be
invited to issue challenges to engineering and human factors students at
universities to build and operate the teleoperated equipment to perform
lunar tasks Using counterweight and pulley systems 16 gravity may be
simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges
 
The long term goal is creating worldwide interest education
experimentation
and remote operation of a lunar colony LTM1 has the potential of being a
long
term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic
example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited
to space EduTainment All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can
lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars
 
CONCLUSION
 
EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment Anyone who has
ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a
globally available layout for recreation education and experimentation
purposes By creating a teleoperated model lunar colony we not only create
worldwide publicity but also a method of trying new ideas that require
real
not virtual skills and open a new method for putting peoples minds in
space
 
 
MOONLIGHTERS
 
Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development
The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work
David42 Rob47 Dash Hyson Jzer0 Vril Wyatt The Dark One Tiggertoo
The Mad Hatter Sir Robin Jogden
 
Come join the discussion any Friday night from 1030 to midnight PST in
 
Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Ideas welcome
 
Internet telnet to 192215111 or diasparcom
 
voice  7143761776
2400bd 7143761200
9600bd 7143761234
 
Email inquiries to LTM1 project leader JzerHydraunmedu
or directly to Jzer0 on Diaspar


preprocess doc  From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Article-I.D.: zeus.1993Apr22.003719.101323
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 32

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) Pontificated: 
>
>
>Some birds require constant management for survival.  Pointing a sensor at
>the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out.  Pointing a
>parabolic antenna  at Sol,  from venus orbit  may trash the
>foci  elements.
>
What I was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be
possible to put enough brains on board future deep-space probes
for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the
sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble.  

I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says "If you never hear from Earth again,
here's what to do."  This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but
still some data).  

>Even if you let teh bird drift,  it may  get hosed by some
>cosmic phenomena.   
>
Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup, if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe, it might
not be such a big loss.  Obviously you can't plan for
everything, but the most obvious things can be considered.


/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you        |   
| think I said.  But I am not sure that you realize that        |
| what I said is not what I meant."                             |

after prepro  From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ArticleID zeus1993Apr22003719101323
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 32

prbaccessdigexcom Pat Pontificated 


Some birds require constant management for survival  Pointing a sensor at
the sun even when powered down may burn it out  Pointing a
parabolic antenna  at Sol  from venus orbit  may trash the
foci  elements

What I was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be
possible to put enough brains on board future deepspace probes
for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the
sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble  

I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says If you never hear from Earth again
heres what to do  This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but
still some data  

Even if you let teh bird drift  it may  get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena   

Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe it might
not be such a big loss  Obviously you cant plan for
everything but the most obvious things can be considered


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I know you believe you understand what it is that you           
 think I said  But I am not sure that you realize that        
 what I said is not what I meant                             

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 33

In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>I propose
>that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
>(and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
>linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former.  I cannot
>provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
>seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.
>

  Damn right you can't provide any evidence for it.  

  Rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a
  simple premise.  If they were, psychology would be a hard science
  with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics.  

  Your premise may well be right.  It is much more likely, however,
  that it reflects your socialization and religious background, as
  well as your need to validate your religious beliefs.  Were I to
  pretend to have all the answers (and I don't), I would say that the
  xenophobia, guilt, and intolerance brought about by adherence to 
  fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing
  the members of our society.

  Your mileage obviously varies.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 33

In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
I propose
that these two trends  greater level of general depression in society
and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity  are
linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former  I cannot
provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it


  Damn right you cant provide any evidence for it  

  Rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a
  simple premise  If they were psychology would be a hard science
  with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics  

  Your premise may well be right  It is much more likely however
  that it reflects your socialization and religious background as
  well as your need to validate your religious beliefs  Were I to
  pretend to have all the answers and I dont I would say that the
  xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about by adherence to 
  fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing
  the members of our society

  Your mileage obviously varies

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Re: And Another THing:
In-Reply-To: mangoe@cs.umd.edu's message of 3 Apr 93 00:46:07 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 39



mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:

>Keith Ryan writes:
>>
>>You will ignore any criticism of your logic, or any possible incongruenties
>>in your stance?  You will not answer any questions on the validity of any
>>opinion and/or facts you state?

>When I have to start saying "that's not what I said", and the response is
>"did so!", there's no reason to continue.  If someone is not going to argue
>with MY version of MY position, then they cannot be argued with.

But of course YOUR version of YOUR position has been included in the
Charley Challenges, so your claim above is a flat-out lie.  Further,
only last week you claimed that you "might not" answer the Challenges
because you were turned off by "included text".  So which is it, do
you want your context included in my articles or not?  Come to think
of it, this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next
Challenges post.

By the way, I've kept every bloody thing that you've written related
to this thread, and will be only too pleased to re-post any of it to
back my position.  You seem to have forgotten that you leave an
electronic paper trail on the net.

>>This is the usual theist approach.  No matter how many times a certain
>>argument has been disproven, shown to be non-applicable or non-sequitur;
>>they keep cropping up- time after time.

>Speaking of non-sequiturs, this has little to do with what I just said.  And
>have some sauce for the goose: some of the "disproof" is fallacies repeated
>over and over (such as the "law of nature" argument someone posted recently).

Now, now, let's not change the subject.  Wouldn't it be best to finish
up the thread in question before you begin new ones?

--Dave Wood

after prepro  From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Re And Another THing
InReplyTo mangoecsumdedus message of 3 Apr 93 004607 GMT
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 39



mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes

Keith Ryan writes

You will ignore any criticism of your logic or any possible incongruenties
in your stance  You will not answer any questions on the validity of any
opinion andor facts you state

When I have to start saying thats not what I said and the response is
did so theres no reason to continue  If someone is not going to argue
with MY version of MY position then they cannot be argued with

But of course YOUR version of YOUR position has been included in the
Charley Challenges so your claim above is a flatout lie  Further
only last week you claimed that you might not answer the Challenges
because you were turned off by included text  So which is it do
you want your context included in my articles or not  Come to think
of it this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next
Challenges post

By the way Ive kept every bloody thing that youve written related
to this thread and will be only too pleased to repost any of it to
back my position  You seem to have forgotten that you leave an
electronic paper trail on the net

This is the usual theist approach  No matter how many times a certain
argument has been disproven shown to be nonapplicable or nonsequitur
they keep cropping up time after time

Speaking of nonsequiturs this has little to do with what I just said  And
have some sauce for the goose some of the disproof is fallacies repeated
over and over such as the law of nature argument someone posted recently

Now now lets not change the subject  Wouldnt it be best to finish
up the thread in question before you begin new ones

Dave Wood

preprocess doc  From: phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: chroma.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 33

In article <1993Apr20.142747.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu  
writes:
> In article <C5sB3p.IB9@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)  
writes:
> >    I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
> > black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
> > on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
> > "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
> > It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.
> > 
> > Doug Loss
> 
> 
> Interesting is rigth.. I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
> astronaut in the credits.. I think it might help people connect the future  
of
> space with the present.. And give them an idea that we must go into space..
> 


A transporter operator!?!?  That better be one important transport.  Usually  
it is a nameless ensign who does the job.  For such a guest appearance I would  
have expected a more visible/meaningful role.

---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Carlos G. Niederstrasser        |  Only two things are infinite,  |
| Princeton Planetary Society     |      the universe and human     |
|                                 |   stupidity, and I'm not sure   |
|                                 |   about the former. - Einstein  |
| carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu   |---------------------------------|
| space@phoenix.princeton.edu     |    Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra    |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost chromaprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 33

In article 1993Apr201427471auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu  
writes
 In article  lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss  
writes
     I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
  black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
  on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
  Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
  Its hardly space science I know but its interesting
  
  Doug Loss
 
 
 Interesting is rigth I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
 astronaut in the credits I think it might help people connect the future  
of
 space with the present And give them an idea that we must go into space
 


A transporter operator  That better be one important transport  Usually  
it is a nameless ensign who does the job  For such a guest appearance I would  
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role



 Carlos G Niederstrasser          Only two things are infinite  
 Princeton Planetary Society           the universe and human     
                                    stupidity and Im not sure   
                                    about the former  Einstein  
 carlosnphoenixprincetonedu   
 spacephoenixprincetonedu         Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra    


preprocess doc  From: tclark@tlcslip.uncecs.edu (Thomas B. Clark)
Subject: Re: "So help you God" in court?  
Reply-To: tclark@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC School of Medicine
Lines: 11

I don't think there is really any question about which god the courts
mean.  The request for solemnly swearing, so help you god,
 is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand
and hold up your right hand.  In the courts of NC, at least, it is always
an old and new testament.

Though it is hard to imagine, picking up the bible and swearing to (whatever)
god is sometimes the least of the religious influence.  There is a court in
Greensboro, NC, where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom
stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session.  I've thought about
sitting through it, but I'm not terribly anxious to spend 30 days in jail...

after prepro  From tclarktlcslipuncecsedu Thomas B Clark
Subject Re So help you God in court  
ReplyTo tclarkmeduncedu
Organization UNC School of Medicine
Lines 11

I dont think there is really any question about which god the courts
mean  The request for solemnly swearing so help you god
 is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand
and hold up your right hand  In the courts of NC at least it is always
an old and new testament

Though it is hard to imagine picking up the bible and swearing to whatever
god is sometimes the least of the religious influence  There is a court in
Greensboro NC where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom
stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session  Ive thought about
sitting through it but Im not terribly anxious to spend 30 days in jail

preprocess doc  From: willner@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA
Lines: 19


In article <C5qvJC.B4B@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry
Spencer) writes: 
> The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.

>   However, quite possibly it's
> no longer on display; NASM, like most museums, has much more stuff than it
> can display at once, and does rotate the displays occasionally.

The NASM photo archives are open to the public.  All (or almost all)
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but I
don't know about films.  At least it might be worth a try.  I'm not
sure if appointments are necessary, but I think not.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.
-- 
Steve Willner            Phone 617-495-7123         Bitnet:   willner@cfa
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA                 Internet: willner@cfa.harvard.edu
  member, League for Programming Freedom; contact lpf@uunet.uu.net

after prepro  From willnerheadcfaharvardedu Steve Willner
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory Cambridge MA  USA
Lines 19


In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry
Spencer writes 
 The National Air  Space Museum has both the prototype and the film

   However quite possibly its
 no longer on display NASM like most museums has much more stuff than it
 can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally

The NASM photo archives are open to the public  All or almost all
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but I
dont know about films  At least it might be worth a try  Im not
sure if appointments are necessary but I think not

Good luck and let us know what you find
 
Steve Willner            Phone 6174957123         Bitnet   willnercfa
Cambridge MA 02138 USA                 Internet willnercfaharvardedu
  member League for Programming Freedom contact lpfuunetuunet

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: How do they ignite the SSME?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 21

on Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 12:38:50 GMT, Paul Dietz <dietz@cs.rochester.edu>
writes:

/in essence, holding a match under the nozzle, is just *nuts*.  One
/thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that
/the propellants ignite as soon as they mix, within milliseconds.  To
/do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture
/which, when it finally does ignite, blows everything to hell.

Definitely! In one of the reports of an early test conducted by Rocketdyne at 
their Santa Susanna Field Lab ("the Hill" above the San Fernando and Simi 
Valleys), the result of a hung start was described as "structural failure" of 
the combustion chamber.  The inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below
, the CC had vaporized!  This was described in a class I took as a "typical
engineering understatement" :-)

Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz     MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com    w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
   "Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject How do they ignite the SSME
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 21

on Date Sat 3 Apr 1993 123850 GMT Paul Dietz 
writes

in essence holding a match under the nozzle is just nuts  One
thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that
the propellants ignite as soon as they mix within milliseconds  To
do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture
which when it finally does ignite blows everything to hell

Definitely In one of the reports of an early test conducted by Rocketdyne at 
their Santa Susanna Field Lab the Hill above the San Fernando and Simi 
Valleys the result of a hung start was described as structural failure of 
the combustion chamber  The inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below
 the CC had vaporized  This was described in a class I took as a typical
engineering understatement 

Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz     MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom    w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
   Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901


preprocess doc  From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 37

In article <30121@ursa.bear.com>, halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
>In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>
>>He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
>>One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
>>existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
>>Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
>>number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
>>is his status at the time the crime was committed. 
>

I'll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one
_rejects_ god.  Therefore, you choose to punish only those who
_talk_ about it.  

>
>-jim halat                             
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            

after prepro  From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 37

In article 30121ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
is his status at the time the crime was committed 


Ill also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one
_rejects_ god  Therefore you choose to punish only those who
_talk_ about it  


jim halat                             
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            

preprocess doc  From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Long Island (was Why use AC at 20kHz for SSF power)
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 21

on Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:19:46 GMT, Edmund Hack <arabia!hack> writes:

/In article <1pgdno$3t1@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
/>
/>I always thought GD's  Fighter plants were in Long Island.  
/>
/No, Northrup has a plant on Long Island.

I don't think Northrup ever had a plant on Long Island.  The two main airframe
manufacturers there were (Fairchild)/Republic which closed its doors after the
T-46 cancellation, and Grumman (which is still hanging on last I time I called).
I think Sperry also started there.  If you're ever in the area check out the
Cradle of Aviation Museum at Mitchell field (now mostly parking lots behind the
Nassau Coliseum and the community college).  Good display of vehicles from Long
Island, including a LEM flight article.

Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz     MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com    w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
   "Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901


after prepro  From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Long Island was Why use AC at 20kHz for SSF power
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 21

on Date Fri 2 Apr 1993 231946 GMT Edmund Hack  writes

In article 1pgdno3t1accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

I always thought GDs  Fighter plants were in Long Island  

No Northrup has a plant on Long Island

I dont think Northrup ever had a plant on Long Island  The two main airframe
manufacturers there were FairchildRepublic which closed its doors after the
T46 cancellation and Grumman which is still hanging on last I time I called
I think Sperry also started there  If youre ever in the area check out the
Cradle of Aviation Museum at Mitchell field now mostly parking lots behind the
Nassau Coliseum and the community college  Good display of vehicles from Long
Island including a LEM flight article

Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz     MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom    w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
   Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 12

In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
>... a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
>Diego back in 1957 or 1958...   I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?

The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 12

In article 1993Apr1705333315696sfuca Leigh Palmer  writes
 a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958   I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it

The National Air  Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: next15csc.wam.umd.edu
Reply-To: west@next02.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Lines: 35

In article <kmr4.1433.734039535@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.  
Ryan) writes:
> In article <1993Apr5.163050.13308@wam.umd.edu>  
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> >In article <kmr4.1422.733983061@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.  
> >Ryan) writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr5.025924.11361@wam.umd.edu>  
> >west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> >> 
> >> >THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GOD(tm)    *prove me wrong*
> >> 
> >> 	I dispute it.
> >> 
> >> 	Ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong.
> >
> >	I dispute your counter-example
> >
> >	Ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and
> >	I am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
> 
> 	No. The premis stated that it was undisputed. 
> 

Fine... THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GOD(tm)  (disputed or not, it is)

Dispute that.  It won't matter.  Prove me wrong.

Brian West
--
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE            *    -"To the Earth, we have been
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE            *     here but for the blink of an
OK, SO IT'S A SIG FILE            *     eye, if we were gone tomorrow, 
posted by west@wam.umd.edu        *     we would not be missed."-  
who doesn't care who knows it.    *        (Jurassic Park) 
** DICLAIMER: I said this, I meant this, nobody made me do it.**

after prepro  From westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost next15cscwamumdedu
ReplyTo westnext02wamumdedu
Organization Workstations at Maryland University of Maryland College Park
Lines 35

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M  
Ryan writes
 In article 1993Apr516305013308wamumdedu  
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
 In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M  
 Ryan writes
  In article 1993Apr502592411361wamumdedu  
 westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
  
  THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GODtm    prove me wrong
  
  	I dispute it
  
  	Ergo by counterexample you are proven wrong
 
 	I dispute your counterexample
 
 	Ergo by countercounterexample you are wrong and
 	I am right so nannynannybooboo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
 
 	No The premis stated that it was undisputed 
 

Fine THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GODtm  disputed or not it is

Dispute that  It wont matter  Prove me wrong

Brian West

THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE                To the Earth we have been
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE                 here but for the blink of an
OK SO ITS A SIG FILE                 eye if we were gone tomorrow 
posted by westwamumdedu             we would not be missed  
who doesnt care who knows it            Jurassic Park 
 DICLAIMER I said this I meant this nobody made me do it

preprocess doc  From: rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 52

In article <11812@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.205414.3982@leland.Stanford.EDU> rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding) writes:
>>
>>If we worry about the one case in 20,000 (or more) where an innocent man is
>>convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty,  and
>>hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually
>>execute real criminals,  then the death penalty is not serving its original
>>purpose.  It should either be changed or done away with.
>>
>
>  I don't have numbers to back this up, so take the following
>  accordingly.
>
>  You use an off-the-cuff number of 1 in 20,000 innocent people
>  sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital
>  punishment.  I'd be very, very surprised if the ratio were that
>  low.  There have been approximately a dozen known cases of the
>  execution of the innocent in the US since the turn of the century.
>  Have we in that same period sentenced 240,000 people to death?
>  Accounting for those cases that we don't know the truth, it seems
>  reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in
>  fact been executed.  That would raise the number of death
>  sentences metered out since 1900 to half a million for your
>  acceptance ratio to hold.  I rather doubt that's the case.
>
>
>  The point, of course, is what *is* an acceptable loss.  1 in
>  10,000?  Seems we're probably not doing even that well.  1 in 100?
>  1 in 2?  Or should we perhaps find a better solution?
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
>

Any suggestions as to what a better solution might be?  I realize the
off-hand nature of the numbers I used.  And I can't answer as to what
an acceptable loss rate is.  However,  as I said in another post,  I
despise the idea of supporting criminals for life.  It's the economics
of the situation that concern me most.  The money spent feeding, clothing,
housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are
unfit to live in society could go to a number of places,  all of which
I, and probably others,  would consider far more worthwhile and which
would enrish the lives of all Americans.  Give people jobs,  give the
homeless shelter.  Any number of things.

Clyde


-- 
Little girls,  like butterflies, don't need a reason!
					- Robert Heinlein

after prepro  From rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization DSG Stanford University CA 94305 USA
Lines 52

In article 11812viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article 1993Apr142054143982lelandStanfordEDU rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding writes

If we worry about the one case in 20000 or more where an innocent man is
convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty  and
hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually
execute real criminals  then the death penalty is not serving its original
purpose  It should either be changed or done away with


  I dont have numbers to back this up so take the following
  accordingly

  You use an offthecuff number of 1 in 20000 innocent people
  sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital
  punishment  Id be very very surprised if the ratio were that
  low  There have been approximately a dozen known cases of the
  execution of the innocent in the US since the turn of the century
  Have we in that same period sentenced 240000 people to death
  Accounting for those cases that we dont know the truth it seems
  reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in
  fact been executed  That would raise the number of death
  sentences metered out since 1900 to half a million for your
  acceptance ratio to hold  I rather doubt thats the case


  The point of course is what is an acceptable loss  1 in
  10000  Seems were probably not doing even that well  1 in 100
  1 in 2  Or should we perhaps find a better solution

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 


Any suggestions as to what a better solution might be  I realize the
offhand nature of the numbers I used  And I cant answer as to what
an acceptable loss rate is  However  as I said in another post  I
despise the idea of supporting criminals for life  Its the economics
of the situation that concern me most  The money spent feeding clothing
housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are
unfit to live in society could go to a number of places  all of which
I and probably others  would consider far more worthwhile and which
would enrish the lives of all Americans  Give people jobs  give the
homeless shelter  Any number of things

Clyde


 
Little girls  like butterflies dont need a reason
					 Robert Heinlein

preprocess doc   cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!zazen
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
From: zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)
Organization: Brownian Motion Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 34

The One and Only (jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: In article <dl2021-310393180711@m249-66.bgsu.edu> dl2021@andy.bgsu.edu (Pixie) writes:
: [first post I've seen from the ol' Bug-Zoo (BGSU)]
: >     There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
: >that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
: >what it is).  Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
: >atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
: > I accept nothing on blind faith.

: Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns!  Need I say more?

There is also the question of what is meant by "atheist".  A familiar
example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows.

The two statements following ARE consistent:

(1) I do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(2) I do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

The two statements following are NOT consistent:

(3) I do believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(4) I do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

Statements (1) and (2) require no faith, they make no presumptions about
the nature of reality.  Statements (3) and (4) require belief.  Many
atheists (myself included) take the following position:

(5) I do not believe that there is a god.
(6) I do not believe that there is not a god.

That is , I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence
for god existing or not.  Some folks call this agnosticism.  It does not
suffer from "blind faith" at all.  I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".

after prepro   csutexasedugeraldoccutexaseduportalaustinibmcomawdprimeaustinibmcomzazen
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
From zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon
Organization Brownian Motion Inc
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 34

The One and Only jcopelannyxcsduedu wrote
 In article  dl2021andybgsuedu Pixie writes
 [first post Ive seen from the ol BugZoo BGSU]
      There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
 that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
 what it is  Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
 atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
  I accept nothing on blind faith

 Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns  Need I say more

There is also the question of what is meant by atheist  A familiar
example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows

The two statements following ARE consistent

1 I do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks
2 I do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

The two statements following are NOT consistent

3 I do believe that you are wearing lilac socks
4 I do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks

Statements 1 and 2 require no faith they make no presumptions about
the nature of reality  Statements 3 and 4 require belief  Many
atheists myself included take the following position

5 I do not believe that there is a god
6 I do not believe that there is not a god

That is  I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence
for god existing or not  Some folks call this agnosticism  It does not
suffer from blind faith at all  I think of it as Dont worry be happy

preprocess doc  From: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Subject: A WRENCH in the works?
Originator: jmcocker@c00068-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 19


Hi all,

I really thought that by now I would have seen something
about this, but I haven't, so here goes:  Last night on
the evening news, the anchorperson said something to the
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.  There
was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was
found, of what type of wrench it was, but the anchorperson
did say something about a NASA official commenting that
there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the SSRB.

Has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be 
better than mine heard anything about this?  It seems rather
weird.

Mitch ---------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu

after prepro  From jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Subject A WRENCH in the works
Originator jmcockerc00068100lezeosncsuedu
ReplyTo jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Organization North Carolina State University Project Eos
Lines 19


Hi all

I really thought that by now I would have seen something
about this but I havent so here goes  Last night on
the evening news the anchorperson said something to the
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case  There
was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was
found of what type of wrench it was but the anchorperson
did say something about a NASA official commenting that
there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the SSRB

Has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be 
better than mine heard anything about this  It seems rather
weird

Mitch jmcockereosncsuedu

preprocess doc  From: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Organization: Sea Change Corporation, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 44

werdna@cco.caltech.edu (Andrew Tong) writes:
>mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>
>>Question 2: This attitude god character seems awfully egotistical
>>and proud.  But Christianity tells people to be humble.  What's the deal?
>
>Well, God pretty much has a right to be "egotistical and proud."  I
>mean, he created _you_, doesn't he have the right to be proud of such
>a job?
>
>Of course, people don't have much of a right to be proud.  What have
>they accomplished that can match God's accomplishments, anyways?  How
>do their abilities compare with those of God's.  We're an "imbecile
>worm of the earth," to quote Pascal.

Grumblegrumble...   

>If you were God, and you created a universe, wouldn't you be just a
>little irked if some self-organizing cell globules on a tiny planet
>started thinking they were as great and awesome as you?

unfortunately the logic falls apart quick: all-perfect > insulted or
threatened by the actions of a lesser creature > actually by offspring >
???????????????????

How/why shuold any all-powerful all-perfect feel either proud or offended?
Anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every 
particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should
be able to understand the cause of every action of every 'cell globule' on
each tniy planet...

>Well, actually, now that I think of it, it seems kinda odd that God
>would care at all about the Earth.  OK, so it was a bad example. But
>the amazing fact is that He does care, apparently, and that he was
>willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness.

"All-powerful, Owner Of Everything in the Universe Makes Great Sacrifices"
makes a great headline but it doesn't make any sense.  What did he
sacrifice?  Where did it go that he couldn't get it back?  If he gave
something up, who'd he give it up to?

-chris

[you guys have fun, I'm agoin' to Key West!!]

after prepro  From chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
ReplyTo chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Organization Sea Change Corporation Mississauga Ontario Canada
Lines 44

werdnaccocaltechedu Andrew Tong writes
mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes

Question 2 This attitude god character seems awfully egotistical
and proud  But Christianity tells people to be humble  Whats the deal

Well God pretty much has a right to be egotistical and proud  I
mean he created _you_ doesnt he have the right to be proud of such
a job

Of course people dont have much of a right to be proud  What have
they accomplished that can match Gods accomplishments anyways  How
do their abilities compare with those of Gods  Were an imbecile
worm of the earth to quote Pascal

Grumblegrumble   

If you were God and you created a universe wouldnt you be just a
little irked if some selforganizing cell globules on a tiny planet
started thinking they were as great and awesome as you

unfortunately the logic falls apart quick allperfect  insulted or
threatened by the actions of a lesser creature  actually by offspring 


Howwhy shuold any allpowerful allperfect feel either proud or offended
Anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every 
particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should
be able to understand the cause of every action of every cell globule on
each tniy planet

Well actually now that I think of it it seems kinda odd that God
would care at all about the Earth  OK so it was a bad example But
the amazing fact is that He does care apparently and that he was
willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness

Allpowerful Owner Of Everything in the Universe Makes Great Sacrifices
makes a great headline but it doesnt make any sense  What did he
sacrifice  Where did it go that he couldnt get it back  If he gave
something up whod he give it up to

chris

[you guys have fun Im agoin to Key West]

preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: NASA "Wraps"
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 133

In the April edition of "One Small Step for a Space Activist",
Allen Sherzer & Tim Kyger write:
  "Another problem is what are called 'wraps' (or sometimes
   the 'center tax'). When work for a large program like
   Freedom or Shuttle is performed at a NASA center, the
   center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts
   to a slush fund. This money is used to fund work the
   center manager wants to fund. This sum is estimated to
   be over a third of the funds allocated. Think about
   that: Of the $30 billion cost of Freedom, fully $10
   billion won't be spent on anything having anything
   to do with Space Stations! Now, maybe that $10 billion
   was wisely spent (and maybe it wasn't), but the work done
   with it should stand on its own merits, not distorting
   the cost of other projects. Congress has no idea of the
   existense of these wraps; Congress has never heard the
   term 'center tax'. They look at the Station they are
   getting and the price they are paying and note that
   it doesn't add up. They wonder this blissfully unaware
   that a third of the money is going for something else."

My dear friends, your mixing fact and fiction here. A couple
of weeks ago, when I first read this in your posting, I
talked with one of the cost experts here in Space Station
at Headquarters [if you wondering why I didn't post a
response immediately, I do have a real job I'm supposed
to be doing here at Headquarters, & digging up old 20 kHz
data & looking into Sherzer/Kyger claims rates pretty low
on the totem pole of priority. Also, I spent last weekend
in Kansas City, at the National Science Teachers 
Association conference, extolling the virtues of SSF
to 15,000 science teachers.]

First off, yes, the concept of 'center tax', or 'wrap' does
exist. If I recall the numbers correctly, the total 'tax'
for the SSF program for this fiscal year is around $40 Million.
This was computed by adding up the WP-1, WP-2, and WP-4
center 'taxes'. With the SSF budget for this fiscal year at
$2.2 Billion, my calculater says the tax percentage is
04/2.2 = 1.8%

Over the life of the SSF program, using your figure of $30
billion for the cost of SSF, a tax at a 1.8% rate comes to
$540 million. This is alot less than $10 billion, but I
will concede it's still an appreciable amount of pocket
change.

I should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 1/3 could
be close to the actual rate. The tax is only charged on funds
that are spent at the center (kind of like McDonalds at some
states, where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat
the food at the restaurant, but you don't if you get it
take-out). For example, at WP-4, the vast bulk of the funds
we receive go to the Rocketdyne Contract, and are *NOT*
subject to the center tax (I don't have the numbers in
front of me, but I'd guess at least 95% of the WP-4 funds
go to Rocketdyne). So, you could be right about a tax
rate of 1/3, but it's only applied to funds spent at the
center, and not to the prime contracts.

This leads to the obvious question "What is the government
doing with SSF funds that don't go to the prime contractors?
(i.e. ok, WP-4 gets a slice of the $30 billion pie. A
big portion of this slice goes to Rocketdyne. What happens
to the balance of the funds, which aren't eaten
up by the center tax?)"

At WP-4, we call these funds we spend in-house supporting
development funds (as they are supporting the development
work done by Rocketdyne). We have used these funds to
setup our own testbed, to checkout the electrical
power system architecture. Our testbed has a real life
solar array field (left over from solar cell research
research a few years back), with lead-acid car batteries
(to simulate the Nickel-Hydrogen batteries on SSF), DC
switchgear, DC-DC converter units, and simulated
loads. Data from the testbed was used in a recent
change evaluation involving concerns about the stability
of the power system.

We have also used the supporting development money to
purchase Nickel Hydrogen batteries, which are on life
testing at both Lewis and the Crane Naval facility in
Indiana. As a side point, 6 of the battery cells on
test recently hit the four year life test milestone.
38 cells have completed 18,552 to 23,405 cycles (the
on-orbit batteries go through 5,840 cycles per year).

As a final example, my 'home' division at Lewis used
the supporting development funds to purchase personal
computers and work stations, for performing system
analyses (like modeling of the performance of the
electrical power system, availability calculations
using a Monte-Carlo simulation, setting up a 
database with information on weight of the power
system elements).

Finally, the money raised by the 'tax' does not all
go into a 'slush fund.' At Lewis, the director
does control a small discretionary fund. Each year,
any individual at Lewis can submit a proposal to
the director to get money from this fund to look
at pretty much anything within the Lewis Charter.

Most of the tax, however, goes to fund the 'general'
services at the Center, like the library, the 
central computer services division, the Contractor 
who removes the snow, etc. Thus, it is rather
difficult to determine what percentage of the
SSF budget doesn't go for SSF activities. To get
an accurate figure, you would have to take
the annual expenditure for the library (for example),
and then divide by the amount of the library funds
used to support SSF (which would be hard to
compute by itself - how would you figure out
what percentage of the bill for Aviation Week for
1 year is 'billable' to SSF, would you base it on
the person-hours SSF employees spend reading AV-week
versus the rest of the center personnel). You would
then have to compare this estimate of the SSF
portion of the library expense with the portion of
the tax that goes to support the library. Who knows,
maybe SSF overpays on the tax to run the library, but
we underpay for snow removal? Talk about
a burecratic nightmare!

My last point is that I can't believe your claim that
Congress has never heard of the term 'center tax.'
Unfortunately, all of the NASA testimony before
Congress isn't on a computer, so I can't do a simple
word search someplace to prove you wrong. But surely,
in some GAO audit somewhere, these NASA cost methods
were documented for Congress?

after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject NASA Wraps
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 133

In the April edition of One Small Step for a Space Activist
Allen Sherzer  Tim Kyger write
  Another problem is what are called wraps or sometimes
   the center tax When work for a large program like
   Freedom or Shuttle is performed at a NASA center the
   center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts
   to a slush fund This money is used to fund work the
   center manager wants to fund This sum is estimated to
   be over a third of the funds allocated Think about
   that Of the 30 billion cost of Freedom fully 10
   billion wont be spent on anything having anything
   to do with Space Stations Now maybe that 10 billion
   was wisely spent and maybe it wasnt but the work done
   with it should stand on its own merits not distorting
   the cost of other projects Congress has no idea of the
   existense of these wraps Congress has never heard the
   term center tax They look at the Station they are
   getting and the price they are paying and note that
   it doesnt add up They wonder this blissfully unaware
   that a third of the money is going for something else

My dear friends your mixing fact and fiction here A couple
of weeks ago when I first read this in your posting I
talked with one of the cost experts here in Space Station
at Headquarters [if you wondering why I didnt post a
response immediately I do have a real job Im supposed
to be doing here at Headquarters  digging up old 20 kHz
data  looking into SherzerKyger claims rates pretty low
on the totem pole of priority Also I spent last weekend
in Kansas City at the National Science Teachers 
Association conference extolling the virtues of SSF
to 15000 science teachers]

First off yes the concept of center tax or wrap does
exist If I recall the numbers correctly the total tax
for the SSF program for this fiscal year is around 40 Million
This was computed by adding up the WP1 WP2 and WP4
center taxes With the SSF budget for this fiscal year at
22 Billion my calculater says the tax percentage is
0422  18

Over the life of the SSF program using your figure of 30
billion for the cost of SSF a tax at a 18 rate comes to
540 million This is alot less than 10 billion but I
will concede its still an appreciable amount of pocket
change

I should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 13 could
be close to the actual rate The tax is only charged on funds
that are spent at the center kind of like McDonalds at some
states where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat
the food at the restaurant but you dont if you get it
takeout For example at WP4 the vast bulk of the funds
we receive go to the Rocketdyne Contract and are NOT
subject to the center tax I dont have the numbers in
front of me but Id guess at least 95 of the WP4 funds
go to Rocketdyne So you could be right about a tax
rate of 13 but its only applied to funds spent at the
center and not to the prime contracts

This leads to the obvious question What is the government
doing with SSF funds that dont go to the prime contractors
ie ok WP4 gets a slice of the 30 billion pie A
big portion of this slice goes to Rocketdyne What happens
to the balance of the funds which arent eaten
up by the center tax

At WP4 we call these funds we spend inhouse supporting
development funds as they are supporting the development
work done by Rocketdyne We have used these funds to
setup our own testbed to checkout the electrical
power system architecture Our testbed has a real life
solar array field left over from solar cell research
research a few years back with leadacid car batteries
to simulate the NickelHydrogen batteries on SSF DC
switchgear DCDC converter units and simulated
loads Data from the testbed was used in a recent
change evaluation involving concerns about the stability
of the power system

We have also used the supporting development money to
purchase Nickel Hydrogen batteries which are on life
testing at both Lewis and the Crane Naval facility in
Indiana As a side point 6 of the battery cells on
test recently hit the four year life test milestone
38 cells have completed 18552 to 23405 cycles the
onorbit batteries go through 5840 cycles per year

As a final example my home division at Lewis used
the supporting development funds to purchase personal
computers and work stations for performing system
analyses like modeling of the performance of the
electrical power system availability calculations
using a MonteCarlo simulation setting up a 
database with information on weight of the power
system elements

Finally the money raised by the tax does not all
go into a slush fund At Lewis the director
does control a small discretionary fund Each year
any individual at Lewis can submit a proposal to
the director to get money from this fund to look
at pretty much anything within the Lewis Charter

Most of the tax however goes to fund the general
services at the Center like the library the 
central computer services division the Contractor 
who removes the snow etc Thus it is rather
difficult to determine what percentage of the
SSF budget doesnt go for SSF activities To get
an accurate figure you would have to take
the annual expenditure for the library for example
and then divide by the amount of the library funds
used to support SSF which would be hard to
compute by itself  how would you figure out
what percentage of the bill for Aviation Week for
1 year is billable to SSF would you base it on
the personhours SSF employees spend reading AVweek
versus the rest of the center personnel You would
then have to compare this estimate of the SSF
portion of the library expense with the portion of
the tax that goes to support the library Who knows
maybe SSF overpays on the tax to run the library but
we underpay for snow removal Talk about
a burecratic nightmare

My last point is that I cant believe your claim that
Congress has never heard of the term center tax
Unfortunately all of the NASA testimony before
Congress isnt on a computer so I cant do a simple
word search someplace to prove you wrong But surely
in some GAO audit somewhere these NASA cost methods
were documented for Congress

preprocess doc  From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 53
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>  What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?

>Given the enormous  power,  i was just wondering,  what if they are
>quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by?

>Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges?   

Gamma Ray Bursts (GRBs) are seen coming equally from all directions.
However, given the number of bright ones, there are too few faint
ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far
as we can see--it is as if they are all contained within
a finite sphere (or a sphere with fuzzy edges) with us at the
center.  (These measurements are statistical, and you can
always hide a sufficiently small number of a different
type of GRB with a different origin in the data.  I am assuming
that there is only one population of GRBs).

The data indicates that we are less than 10% of the radius of the center
of the distribution.  The only things the Earth is at the exact center
of are the Solar system (at the scale of the Oort cloud of comets
way beyond Pluto) and the Universe.  Cosmological theories, placing
GRBs throughout the Universe, require supernova-type energies to
be released over a timescale of milliseconds.  Oort cloud models
tend to be silly, even by the standards of astrophysics.

If GRBs were Galactic (i.e. distributed through the Milky Way Galaxy)
you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of
the Galaxy (for a 'disk' population), or towards the Galactic center
(for a spherical 'halo' population).  We don't see this, so if they
are Galactic, they must be in a halo at least 250,000 light years in
radius, and we would probably start to see GRBs from the Andromeda
Galaxy (assuming that it has a similar halo.)  For comparison, the
Earth is 25,000 light-years from the center of the Galaxy.

>my own pet theory is that it's  Flying saucers  entering
>hyperspace :-)

The aren't concentrated in the known spacelanes, and we don't
see many coming from Zeta Reticuli and Tau Ceti.

>but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
>are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes,  i just wondered
>if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in.

There are more than 130 GRB different models in the refereed literature.
Right now, the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium
on new models until new observational evidence comes in.

-- 
		David M. Palmer		palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
					palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov

after prepro  From palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 53
NNTPPostingHost alumnicaltechedu

prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

  What  evidence  indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away

Given the enormous  power  i was just wondering  what if they are
quantum  black holes or something  like that  fairly close by

Why would they have to be at  galactic ranges   

Gamma Ray Bursts GRBs are seen coming equally from all directions
However given the number of bright ones there are too few faint
ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far
as we can seeit is as if they are all contained within
a finite sphere or a sphere with fuzzy edges with us at the
center  These measurements are statistical and you can
always hide a sufficiently small number of a different
type of GRB with a different origin in the data  I am assuming
that there is only one population of GRBs

The data indicates that we are less than 10 of the radius of the center
of the distribution  The only things the Earth is at the exact center
of are the Solar system at the scale of the Oort cloud of comets
way beyond Pluto and the Universe  Cosmological theories placing
GRBs throughout the Universe require supernovatype energies to
be released over a timescale of milliseconds  Oort cloud models
tend to be silly even by the standards of astrophysics

If GRBs were Galactic ie distributed through the Milky Way Galaxy
you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of
the Galaxy for a disk population or towards the Galactic center
for a spherical halo population  We dont see this so if they
are Galactic they must be in a halo at least 250000 light years in
radius and we would probably start to see GRBs from the Andromeda
Galaxy assuming that it has a similar halo  For comparison the
Earth is 25000 lightyears from the center of the Galaxy

my own pet theory is that its  Flying saucers  entering
hyperspace 

The arent concentrated in the known spacelanes and we dont
see many coming from Zeta Reticuli and Tau Ceti

but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes  that they
are  colliding nuetron stars  or  spinning black holes  i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist  and place them  closer in

There are more than 130 GRB different models in the refereed literature
Right now the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium
on new models until new observational evidence comes in

 
		David M Palmer		palmeralumnicaltechedu
					palmertgrsgsfcnasagov

preprocess doc  From: will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Ryukoku Univ., Seta, Japan
Lines: 4


	Thanks for the Update.

							Will...

after prepro  From willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Ryukoku Univ Seta Japan
Lines 4


	Thanks for the Update

							Will

preprocess doc   howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!tubsibr!dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de!I3150101
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 35

In article <66015@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
(Deletion)
>I cannot see any evidence for the V. B. which the cynics in this group would
>ever accept.  As for the second, it is the foundation of the religion.
>Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus (back in the 40 day period)
>is a believer, and therefore is discounted by those in this group; since
>these are all ancients anyway, one again to choose to dismiss the whole
>thing.  The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else--
>even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it *means*, so
>again I don't see how evidence is possible.
>
 
No cookies, Charlie. The claims that Jesus have been seen are discredited
as extraordinary claims that don't match their evidence. In this case, it
is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was Jesus who has been
seen. Further, there are zillions of other spook stories, and one would
hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of
a resurrection.
 
There have been more elaborate arguments made, but it looks as if they have
not passed your post filtering.
 
 
>I thus interpret the "extraordinary claims" claim as a statement that the
>speaker will not accept *any* evidence on the matter.
 
It is no evidence in the strict meaning. If there was actual evidence it would
probably be part of it, but the says nothing about the claims.
 
 
Charlie, I have seen Invisible Pink Unicorns!
By your standards we have evidence for IPUs now.
   Benedikt

after prepro   howlandrestonansneteuropaenggtefsdcomuunetmcsunGermanyEUnetnewsdfndetubsibrdbstu1rztubsdeI3150101
Subject Re Gospel Dating
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 35

In article 66015mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 
Deletion
I cannot see any evidence for the V B which the cynics in this group would
ever accept  As for the second it is the foundation of the religion
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus back in the 40 day period
is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since
these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing  The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so
again I dont see how evidence is possible

 
No cookies Charlie The claims that Jesus have been seen are discredited
as extraordinary claims that dont match their evidence In this case it
is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was Jesus who has been
seen Further there are zillions of other spook stories and one would
hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of
a resurrection
 
There have been more elaborate arguments made but it looks as if they have
not passed your post filtering
 
 
I thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter
 
It is no evidence in the strict meaning If there was actual evidence it would
probably be part of it but the says nothing about the claims
 
 
Charlie I have seen Invisible Pink Unicorns
By your standards we have evidence for IPUs now
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Organization: Me, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 78

snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.163445.1203@wam.umd.edu> west@next02.wam.umd.edu writes:
>>> >> And belief causes far more horrors.
>>> >> Crusades, 
>>> >> the emasculation and internment of Native Americans,  
>>> >> the killing of various tribes in South America.
>>> >-the Inquisition
>>> >-the Counter-reformation and the wars that followed
>>> >-the Salem witch trials
>>> >-the European witch hunts
>>> >-the holy wars of the middle east
>>> >-the colonization/destruction of Africa
>>> >-the wars between Christianity and Islam (post crusade)
>>> >-the genocide (biblical) of the Canaanites and Philistines
>>> >-Aryian invasion of India
>>> >-the attempted genocide of Jews by Nazi Germany
>>> >-the current missionary assaults on tribes in Africa
>>> 
>>> I think all the horrors you mentioned are due to *lack* of people
>>> following religion.
.d.
>By lack of people following religion I also include fanatics- people
>that don't know what they are following.
.d.
>So how do you know that you were right?
>Why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors.
>It really covers yourself- something false to save yourself.
>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder
>
I just thought of another one, in the Bible, so it's definately not because
of *lack* of religion.  The Book of Esther (which I read the other day for
other reasons) describes the origin of Pur'im, a Jewish celbration of joy
and peace.  The long and short of the story is that 75,000 people were
killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions 
lying about (you couldn't swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice,
peaceful solution.)  'Course Joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to
mind...

I agree with Bobby this far: religion as it is used to kill large numbers
of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally
intended for.

That doesn't reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion, it is
just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in
the Universe.  The very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in
religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war.  Many
people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own
stomache-contentsthan in any absolute truth, and have therefore been driven to
kill by their leaders.

The point is that there are many things involved in religion that often
lead to war.  Whether these things are a part of religion, an unpleasant
side effect or (as Bobby would have it) the result of people switching
between Religion and Atheism spontaneously, the results are the same.  

@Religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest
parts of Man's history.@

Atheists, on the other hand (preen,preen) are typically not an ideological
social caste, nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs.
The overuse of Nazism and Stalinism just show how true this is:  Two groups
with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to
further their means.  Anyone who cannot see the obvious - namely that these
were groups founded for reasons *entirely* their own, who used religious
persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more
powerfull - is trying too hard.  Basically, Bobby uses these examples
because there are so few wars that were *not* *specifically* fought over
religion that he does not have many choices.

Well, I'm off to Key West where the only flames are heating the bottom of
little silver butter-dishes.

-ciao

-chris blask

after prepro  From chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Subject Re islamic authority over women
ReplyTo chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Organization Me Mississauga Ontario Canada
Lines 78

snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
In article 1993Apr71634451203wamumdedu westnext02wamumdedu writes
  And belief causes far more horrors
  Crusades 
  the emasculation and internment of Native Americans  
  the killing of various tribes in South America
 the Inquisition
 the Counterreformation and the wars that followed
 the Salem witch trials
 the European witch hunts
 the holy wars of the middle east
 the colonizationdestruction of Africa
 the wars between Christianity and Islam post crusade
 the genocide biblical of the Canaanites and Philistines
 Aryian invasion of India
 the attempted genocide of Jews by Nazi Germany
 the current missionary assaults on tribes in Africa
 
 I think all the horrors you mentioned are due to lack of people
 following religion
d
By lack of people following religion I also include fanatics people
that dont know what they are following
d
So how do you know that you were right
Why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors
It really covers yourself something false to save yourself

Peace

Bobby Mozumder

I just thought of another one in the Bible so its definately not because
of lack of religion  The Book of Esther which I read the other day for
other reasons describes the origin of Purim a Jewish celbration of joy
and peace  The long and short of the story is that 75000 people were
killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions 
lying about you couldnt swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice
peaceful solution  Course Joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to
mind

I agree with Bobby this far religion as it is used to kill large numbers
of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally
intended for

That doesnt reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion it is
just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in
the Universe  The very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in
religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war  Many
people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own
stomachecontentsthan in any absolute truth and have therefore been driven to
kill by their leaders

The point is that there are many things involved in religion that often
lead to war  Whether these things are a part of religion an unpleasant
side effect or as Bobby would have it the result of people switching
between Religion and Atheism spontaneously the results are the same  

Religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest
parts of Mans history

Atheists on the other hand preenpreen are typically not an ideological
social caste nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs
The overuse of Nazism and Stalinism just show how true this is  Two groups
with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to
further their means  Anyone who cannot see the obvious  namely that these
were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious
persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more
powerfull  is trying too hard  Basically Bobby uses these examples
because there are so few wars that were not specifically fought over
religion that he does not have many choices

Well Im off to Key West where the only flames are heating the bottom of
little silver butterdishes

ciao

chris blask

preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Christian Morality is
 <C5prCA.590@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Lines: 32

In article <C5prCA.590@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
says:
>
>In <11836@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>
>>In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
>Cobb) writes:
>
>>  If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake.  That
>>  he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
>>  undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.
>
>What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
>choices up to you?

Leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason
to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting
killed for us?  And little new in the past few thousand
years, leaving us with only the texts passed down through
centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording.
...most of this passing down and interpretation of course
coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing
the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth.
What about maybe talking to us directly, eh?
He's a big god, right?  He ought to be able to make time
for the creations he loves so much...at least enough to
give us each a few words of direct conversation.
What, he's too busy to get around to all of us?
Or maybe a few unquestionably-miraculous works here and
there?
...speaks volumes upon volumes to me that I've never
gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him.

after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell 
Subject Re Christian Morality is
 
Lines 32

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
says

In 11836viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes

  If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake  That
  he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
  undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes

What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
choices up to you

Leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason
to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting
killed for us  And little new in the past few thousand
years leaving us with only the texts passed down through
centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording
most of this passing down and interpretation of course
coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing
the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth
What about maybe talking to us directly eh
Hes a big god right  He ought to be able to make time
for the creations he loves so muchat least enough to
give us each a few words of direct conversation
What hes too busy to get around to all of us
Or maybe a few unquestionablymiraculous works here and
there
speaks volumes upon volumes to me that Ive never
gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him

preprocess doc  From: ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Ralph Buttigieg)
Subject: Commercial point of view
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Lines: 29

Original to: szabo@techbook.com
G'day szabo@techbook.com

29 Mar 93 07:28, szabo@techbook.com wrote to All:

 sc> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo), via Kralizec 3:713/602

 sc> Here are some longer-term markets to consider:

Here are some more:

* Terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors.

* World enviroment and disaster monitering system. (the Japanese have
already developed a plan for this, called WEDOS) Although this may be more
of a "public good".

* Space tourism.

* Energy relay satellites

ta

Ralph

--- GoldED 2.41
 * Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-6797  3:713/6
(3:713/635)


after prepro  From ralphbuttigiegf635n713z3fidozetaorgau Ralph Buttigieg
Subject Commercial point of view
Organization Fidonet Gate admin is fidosocsutseduau
Lines 29

Original to szabotechbookcom
Gday szabotechbookcom

29 Mar 93 0728 szabotechbookcom wrote to All

 sc szabotechbookcom Nick Szabo via Kralizec 3713602

 sc Here are some longerterm markets to consider

Here are some more

 Terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors

 World enviroment and disaster monitering system the Japanese have
already developed a plan for this called WEDOS Although this may be more
of a public good

 Space tourism

 Energy relay satellites

ta

Ralph

 GoldED 241
  Origin VULCANS WORLD  Sydney Australia 02 6356797  37136
3713635


preprocess doc  From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Sr-71 in propoganda films?
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra
Organization: Texas Instruments
Distribution: sci
Lines: 28

In article <1993Apr5.220610.1532@sequent.com>, bigfoot@sequent.com (Gregory Smith) writes:
|> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|> 
|> >In <1phv98$jbk@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> >>THe SR-71 stopped being a real secret by the mid 70's.
|> >>I had a friend in high school who had a poster with it's picture.
|> 
|> >It was known well before that.  I built a model of it sometime in the
|> >mid 60's, billed as YF-12A/SR-71.  The model was based on YF-12A specs
|> >and had a big radar in the nose and 8 AAMs in closed bays on the
|> >underside of the fuselage.  The description, even then, read "speeds
|> >in excess of Mach 3 at altitudes exceeding 80,000 feet."
|> 
|> L.B.J. publically announced the existance of the Blackbird program
|> in 1964.


He's also the one who dubbed it the SR-71 - it was the RS-71 until LBJ
mippselled (sic) it.

FWIW,

Doug Page

***  The opinions are mine (maybe), and don't necessarily represent those  ***
***  of my employer.                                                       ***

after prepro  From dpageracscticom Doug Page
Subject Re Sr71 in propoganda films
NntpPostingHost ra
Organization Texas Instruments
Distribution sci
Lines 28

In article 1993Apr52206101532sequentcom bigfootsequentcom Gregory Smith writes
 mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
 
 In 1phv98jbkaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
 
 
 THe SR71 stopped being a real secret by the mid 70s
 I had a friend in high school who had a poster with its picture
 
 It was known well before that  I built a model of it sometime in the
 mid 60s billed as YF12ASR71  The model was based on YF12A specs
 and had a big radar in the nose and 8 AAMs in closed bays on the
 underside of the fuselage  The description even then read speeds
 in excess of Mach 3 at altitudes exceeding 80000 feet
 
 LBJ publically announced the existance of the Blackbird program
 in 1964


Hes also the one who dubbed it the SR71  it was the RS71 until LBJ
mippselled sic it

FWIW

Doug Page

  The opinions are mine maybe and dont necessarily represent those  
  of my employer                                                       

preprocess doc  From: bon@lte.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de (Uwe Bonnes)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: LTE, University of Erlangen, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aladin.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
Lines: 15


In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>, jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) asked:
|> 
|> Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
|> to compute sunrise and sunset times.
|> 
|> I would appreciate any advice.
|> 
|> Joe Wetstein
|> jpw@coe.drexel.edu

To compute this, and many other astronomical things, go and get (x)ephem written
by Elwood C. Downey. It is e.g. on export.lcs.mit.edu

Uwe Bonnes  bon@lte.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de

after prepro  From bonlteetechnikunierlangende Uwe Bonnes
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization LTE University of Erlangen Germany
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost aladinetechnikunierlangende
Lines 15


In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein asked
 
 Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
 to compute sunrise and sunset times
 
 I would appreciate any advice
 
 Joe Wetstein
 jpwcoedrexeledu

To compute this and many other astronomical things go and get xephem written
by Elwood C Downey It is eg on exportlcsmitedu

Uwe Bonnes  bonlteetechnikunierlangende

preprocess doc  From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

Thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without 
reading the FAQ!  I was laughing for a good 5 minutes.  Were there any 
parts of the FAQ that weren't mentioned?  I think there might have been one
or two...

Please don't tell me this wasn't a joke.  I'm not ready to hear that yet...

Brendan

after prepro  From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 8
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

Thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without 
reading the FAQ  I was laughing for a good 5 minutes  Were there any 
parts of the FAQ that werent mentioned  I think there might have been one
or two

Please dont tell me this wasnt a joke  Im not ready to hear that yet

Brendan

preprocess doc  From: pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas)
Subject: Big amateur rockets
Organization: ICEM Systems, Inc.
Lines: 23

I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back.  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.

Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
and engines of sizes "F" to "M".  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50,000 feet.

Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts, isn't this illegal?  I can't imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.

And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one.  I'm not that crazy.


-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas
-- 
#include <std.disclaimer>
#define FULL_NAME                          "Paul Dokas"
#define EMAIL                              "pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com"
/*            Just remember, you *WILL* die someday.             */

after prepro  From pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas
Subject Big amateur rockets
Organization ICEM Systems Inc
Lines 23

I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that

Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet

Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal  I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down

And no Im not going to even think of buying one  Im not that crazy


Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas
 
include 
define FULL_NAME                          Paul Dokas
define EMAIL                              pbdrunyoncimcdccom
            Just remember you WILL die someday             

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and anarchists
Lines: 117

mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu writes:

>My turn
>I went back and reread your post.  All you did is attack atheism, and
>say that agnosticism wasn't as funny as atheism.  Nowhere does that
>imply that you are agnostic, or weak atheist.  As most people who post
>such inflammatory remarks are theists, it was a reasonable assumption.

Sorry, you're right.  I did not clearly state it.

>>Rule *2:  Condescending to the population at large (i.e., theists) will not
>>win many people to your faith anytime soon.  It only ruins your credibility.

>How am I being condescending to the population at large?  I am stating
>something that happened to be true for a long time, I couldn't believe
>that people actually believed in this god idea.  It was an alien concept
>to me.  I am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it.  I have
>no faith.  Religion was a non issue when I had the attitude above because
>it never even occurred to me to believe.  Atheist by default I guess you
>could say.

The most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational
attitude.  Once one has accepted the _assumption_ that there is no god(s),
and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their
assumption(s) contradict your assumption, then I would say there's a
lack of consistency here.

Now I know you'll get on me about faith.  If the _positive_ belief that God
does not exist were a closed, logical argument, why do so many rational
people have problems with that "logic"?

But you, probably like me, seem to be a soft atheist.  Sorry for the flamage.

>The line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed
>to imply that.  Sorry, been reading too much on the CLIPPER project lately,
>and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some.

;)  What is the CLIPPER project BTW?

>>Rule #4:  Don't mix apples with oranges.  How can you say that the
>>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin?  Khan conquered >people
>>unsympathetic to his cause.  That was atrocious.  But Stalin killed >millions of
>>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!!  >>How can
>>anyone be worse than that?

>Many rulers have done similar things in the past, only Stalin did it
>when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him.  The
>evidence is that some of the early European rulers ruled with an iron
>fist much like Stalin's.  You threw in numbers, and I am sick of hearing
>about Stalin as an example because the example doesn't apply.  You
>managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack
>all forms of atheism.

It might have appeared to attack atheism in general, but its point was
that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons.  People will hate who
they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it, be it cross or
hammer&sickle.  The Stalin example _is_ important not only because it's
still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also
because people really did love him and his ideas, even after all that he
had wrought.

>The evidence I am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative
>evidence.  Say I claim there are no pink crows.  I have never seen
>a pink crow, but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist.  But, this person
>here claims that there are pink crows, even though he admits he hasn't
>been able to capture one or get a photo, or find one with me etc.
>In a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows.
>That is what I am saying when I look at the evidence.  I look at the
>suppossed evidence for a deity, show how it is flawed, and doesn't show
>what theists want it to show, and go on.

First, all the pink crows/unicorns/elves arguments in the world will not
sway most people, for they simply do not accept the analogy.  Why?

One of the big reasons is that many, many people want something
beyond this life.  You can pretend that they don't want this, but I for
one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes.

And there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a God.
Can love as a truth be proven, logically?

>>themselves, namely, a god or gods.  So in principle it's hard to see how
>>theists are necessarily arrogant.

>Makes no sense to me.  They seem arrogant to make such a claim to me.
>But my previous refutation still stands, and I believe there may be
>another one on the net.

John the Baptist boasted of Jesus to many people.  I find it hard to see
how that behavior is arrogant at all.  Many Christians I know also boast
in this way, but I still do not necessarily see it as arrogance.  Of course,
I do know arrogant Christians, doctors, and teachers as well.  Technically,
you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant,
Jesus, for instance.

>Are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism?  If you are
>talking about weak atheism which I believe in, then I refuse such a claim.
>Atheism is a lack of belief.  I used good ol' Occam's Razor to make the
>final rejection of a deity, in that, as I see things, even if I
>present the hypothesises in an equal fasion, I find the theist argument
>not plausible.

I speak against strong atheism.  I also often find that the evidence
supporting a faith is very subjective, just as, say, the evidence supporting
love as truth is subjective.

>I believe I answered that.  I apologize for the (as you stated) incorrect
>assumption on your theism, but I saw nothing to indicate that you
>were an agnostic, only that you were just another newbie Christian
>on the net trying to get some cheap shots in.

No apology necessary.  :)
--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and anarchists
Lines 117

mccullouwhipplecswiscedu writes

My turn
I went back and reread your post  All you did is attack atheism and
say that agnosticism wasnt as funny as atheism  Nowhere does that
imply that you are agnostic or weak atheist  As most people who post
such inflammatory remarks are theists it was a reasonable assumption

Sorry youre right  I did not clearly state it

Rule 2  Condescending to the population at large ie theists will not
win many people to your faith anytime soon  It only ruins your credibility

How am I being condescending to the population at large  I am stating
something that happened to be true for a long time I couldnt believe
that people actually believed in this god idea  It was an alien concept
to me  I am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it  I have
no faith  Religion was a non issue when I had the attitude above because
it never even occurred to me to believe  Atheist by default I guess you
could say

The most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational
attitude  Once one has accepted the _assumption_ that there is no gods
and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their
assumptions contradict your assumption then I would say theres a
lack of consistency here

Now I know youll get on me about faith  If the _positive_ belief that God
does not exist were a closed logical argument why do so many rational
people have problems with that logic

But you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist  Sorry for the flamage

The line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed
to imply that  Sorry been reading too much on the CLIPPER project lately
and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some

  What is the CLIPPER project BTW

Rule 4  Dont mix apples with oranges  How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin  Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause  That was atrocious  But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state  How can
anyone be worse than that

Many rulers have done similar things in the past only Stalin did it
when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him  The
evidence is that some of the early European rulers ruled with an iron
fist much like Stalins  You threw in numbers and I am sick of hearing
about Stalin as an example because the example doesnt apply  You
managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack
all forms of atheism

It might have appeared to attack atheism in general but its point was
that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons  People will hate who
they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it be it cross or
hammersickle  The Stalin example _is_ important not only because its
still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also
because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that he
had wrought

The evidence I am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative
evidence  Say I claim there are no pink crows  I have never seen
a pink crow but that doesnt mean it couldnt exist  But this person
here claims that there are pink crows even though he admits he hasnt
been able to capture one or get a photo or find one with me etc
In a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows
That is what I am saying when I look at the evidence  I look at the
suppossed evidence for a deity show how it is flawed and doesnt show
what theists want it to show and go on

First all the pink crowsunicornselves arguments in the world will not
sway most people for they simply do not accept the analogy  Why

One of the big reasons is that many many people want something
beyond this life  You can pretend that they dont want this but I for
one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes

And there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a God
Can love as a truth be proven logically

themselves namely a god or gods  So in principle its hard to see how
theists are necessarily arrogant

Makes no sense to me  They seem arrogant to make such a claim to me
But my previous refutation still stands and I believe there may be
another one on the net

John the Baptist boasted of Jesus to many people  I find it hard to see
how that behavior is arrogant at all  Many Christians I know also boast
in this way but I still do not necessarily see it as arrogance  Of course
I do know arrogant Christians doctors and teachers as well  Technically
you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant
Jesus for instance

Are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism  If you are
talking about weak atheism which I believe in then I refuse such a claim
Atheism is a lack of belief  I used good ol Occams Razor to make the
final rejection of a deity in that as I see things even if I
present the hypothesises in an equal fasion I find the theist argument
not plausible

I speak against strong atheism  I also often find that the evidence
supporting a faith is very subjective just as say the evidence supporting
love as truth is subjective

I believe I answered that  I apologize for the as you stated incorrect
assumption on your theism but I saw nothing to indicate that you
were an agnostic only that you were just another newbie Christian
on the net trying to get some cheap shots in

No apology necessary  

Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:

>I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.  I base
>this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
>of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
>almost all would want to complain.  Therefore I take it that to assert or
>believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
>that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
>a rainy day.  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
>it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
>such as this exist.

	You have only shown that a vast majority ( if not all ) would
agree to this. However, there is nothing against a subjective majority.

	In any event, I must challenge your assertion. I know many 
societies- heck, many US citizens- willing to trade freedom for "security".


--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

        John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.



after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes

Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable  I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain  Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day  I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist

	You have only shown that a vast majority  if not all  would
agree to this However there is nothing against a subjective majority

	In any event I must challenge your assertion I know many 
societies heck many US citizens willing to trade freedom for security


 

         Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken 

        John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word



preprocess doc  From: dprjdg@inetg1.ARCO.COM (John Grasham)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: ARCO Oil and Gas Company
Lines: 44

keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
>
> All in all, I'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the
> moon for a year is wise and/or useful.  How about:  A prize for the
> first
> non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a
> manned
> moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
> lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth. 
> Find
> some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure...  Having a single
> goal
> might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person
> appeared
> to win.  And for those that didn't give up, I find something a little
> scary
> about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters.  I'd
> like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition.
>
> Lastly, about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was
> an
> English space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases
> on
> the cheap.  I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
> body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from
> solar
> flares, etc.  Unfortunately I don't remember the name of this magazine. 
> Does this ring a bell to anyone?
>
> Craig Keithley                    |"I don't remember, I don't recall, 
> Apple Computer, Inc.              |I got no memory of anything at all"
> keithley@apple.com                |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)
>

I love the idea of progressive developmental prizes, but the assumption
has
been all along that only the U.S. Gummint could fund the prizes.  It
wouldn't and couldn't do such a thing ... BUT ...

An eccentric billionaire COULD offer such a prize or series of prizes.

Anyone know H. Ross Perot or Bill Gates personally?

John G.

after prepro  From dprjdginetg1ARCOCOM John Grasham
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization ARCO Oil and Gas Company
Lines 44

keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley writes

 All in all Im not certain that the single goalprize of staying on the
 moon for a year is wise andor useful  How about  A prize for the
 first
 nongovernment sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a
 manned
 moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
 lunar soil another for a reusable earthmoon shuttle and so forth 
 Find
 some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure  Having a single
 goal
 might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person
 appeared
 to win  And for those that didnt give up I find something a little
 scary
 about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters  Id
 like to see as much a reward for cooperation as for competition

 Lastly about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was
 an
 English space magazine that had an ongoing discussion about moonbases
 on
 the cheap  I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
 body produced how much lunar material itd need for protection from
 solar
 flares etc  Unfortunately I dont remember the name of this magazine 
 Does this ring a bell to anyone

 Craig Keithley                    I dont remember I dont recall 
 Apple Computer Inc              I got no memory of anything at all
 keithleyapplecom                Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980


I love the idea of progressive developmental prizes but the assumption
has
been all along that only the US Gummint could fund the prizes  It
wouldnt and couldnt do such a thing  BUT 

An eccentric billionaire COULD offer such a prize or series of prizes

Anyone know H Ross Perot or Bill Gates personally

John G

preprocess doc  From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 59

acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu wrote:
 
: I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of
: the world  if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group
: of the population. 

I've been thinking about this every now and then since I cut my ties
with Christianity. It is surprising to note that a large majority of
people, at least in Finland, seem to be apatheists - even though
90 % of the population are members of the Lutheran Church of Finland,
religious people are actually a minority. 

Could it be possible that many people believe in god "just in case"?
It seems people do not want to seek the truth; they fall prey to Pascal's
Wager or other poor arguments. A small minority of those who do believe
reads the Bible regularly. The majority doesn't care - it believes,
but doesn't know what or how. 

People don't usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle,
they only want to keep the virtual gate open. A Christian would say
that they are not "born in the Spirit", but this does not disturb them.
Religion is not something to think about. 

I'm afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible
dream. Religions have a strong appeal to people, nevertheless - 
a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to.
Coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our
morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop, too many
people take the poison with a smile. Or just pretend to swallow
(and unconsciously hope god wouldn't notice ;-) )

: Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
: higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking.  The
: typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
: same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
: other, qualitatively.  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
: somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
: than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
: expresses its own selfishness.

If logic and reason are valued, then I would claim that atheistic thinking
is of higher value than the theistic exposition. Theists make unnecessary
assumptions they believe in - I've yet to see good reasons to believe
in gods, or to take a leap of faith at all. A revelation would do.

However, why do we value logic and reasoning? This questions bears
some resemblance to a long-disputed problem in science: why mathematics
works? Strong deep structuralists, like Atkins, have proposed that
perhaps, after all, everything _is_ mathematics. 

Is usefulness any criterion?

Petri

--
 ___. .'*''.*        Petri Pihko    kem-pmp@          Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' .    Pihatie 15 C    finou.oulu.fi    Physics is the Rule of
       ' *' .* '*    SF-90650 OULU  kempmp@           the Game.
          *'  *  .*  FINLAND         phoenix.oulu.fi  -> Chemistry is The Game.

after prepro  From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 59

acoopermacccmacalstredu wrote
 
 I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of
 the world  if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group
 of the population 

Ive been thinking about this every now and then since I cut my ties
with Christianity It is surprising to note that a large majority of
people at least in Finland seem to be apatheists  even though
90  of the population are members of the Lutheran Church of Finland
religious people are actually a minority 

Could it be possible that many people believe in god just in case
It seems people do not want to seek the truth they fall prey to Pascals
Wager or other poor arguments A small minority of those who do believe
reads the Bible regularly The majority doesnt care  it believes
but doesnt know what or how 

People dont usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle
they only want to keep the virtual gate open A Christian would say
that they are not born in the Spirit but this does not disturb them
Religion is not something to think about 

Im afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible
dream Religions have a strong appeal to people nevertheless  
a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to
Coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our
morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop too many
people take the poison with a smile Or just pretend to swallow
and unconsciously hope god wouldnt notice  

 Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
 higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking  The
 typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
 same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
 other qualitatively  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
 somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
 than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
 expresses its own selfishness

If logic and reason are valued then I would claim that atheistic thinking
is of higher value than the theistic exposition Theists make unnecessary
assumptions they believe in  Ive yet to see good reasons to believe
in gods or to take a leap of faith at all A revelation would do

However why do we value logic and reasoning This questions bears
some resemblance to a longdisputed problem in science why mathematics
works Strong deep structuralists like Atkins have proposed that
perhaps after all everything _is_ mathematics 

Is usefulness any criterion

Petri


 ___         Petri Pihko    kempmp          Mathematics is the Truth
___       Pihatie 15 C    finououlufi    Physics is the Rule of
              SF90650 OULU  kempmp           the Game
                FINLAND         phoenixoulufi   Chemistry is The Game

preprocess doc  From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: Rationality (was: Islamic marriage)?
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 26
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi

In <1993Mar31.013034.27070@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>My case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start
>believing in Islam.  And that horrors to mankind are all caused by the
>lack of belief- Atheism.

For the last time, Bobby. Lack of belief in YOUR god does NOT imply
atheism. Just because some moslems aren't moral does not mean they don't
believe in a god named Allah, although their Allah may not do the things
your Allah does. If a moslem says he/she believes that a god exists, he/she
is a theist (though maybe not a TRUE follower of islam).

>30,000 murder victims a year caused by atheism. Poverty. Massive hate crimes.
>Such low respect for the human body.  Distrust among people.  Everything
>wrong, all caused by atheism.

>Peace,

Jerk.

>Bobby Mozumder
-- 
Sami Aario         |  "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi  |   one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------'  "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"     DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.

after prepro  From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage Rationality was Islamic marriage
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 26
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi

In 1993Mar3101303427070ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

My case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start
believing in Islam  And that horrors to mankind are all caused by the
lack of belief Atheism

For the last time Bobby Lack of belief in YOUR god does NOT imply
atheism Just because some moslems arent moral does not mean they dont
believe in a god named Allah although their Allah may not do the things
your Allah does If a moslem says heshe believes that a god exists heshe
is a theist though maybe not a TRUE follower of islam

30000 murder victims a year caused by atheism Poverty Massive hate crimes
Such low respect for the human body  Distrust among people  Everything
wrong all caused by atheism

Peace

Jerk

Bobby Mozumder
 
Sami Aario           Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi     one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
  Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space     DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qlf7gINN8sn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
|> >"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.
|> 
|> That's right.  Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though.  Perhaps
|> our goal is one of self-actualization.

Humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly?    In one thread
you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong.   So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion?   The long-
term survival of the human species, or what?

How does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions?

|> 
|> >But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
|> >term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
|> >other species, either terrestrial or alien.
|> 
|> Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me.  This
|> was not part of the original premise.

Well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time,
so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right"
and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is. 

|> 
|> >Does that make it moral to do so?
|> 
|> Which type of morality are you talking about?  In a natural sense, it
|> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
|> adversely affect your own, I guess).

I'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions.

You tell us what type of morality that is.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Objective morality was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
 goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive
 
 Thats right  Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though  Perhaps
 our goal is one of selfactualization

Humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly    In one thread
youre telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong   So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion   The long
term survival of the human species or what

How does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign
right and wrong to actions

 
 But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
 term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some 
 other species either terrestrial or alien
 
 Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me  This
 was not part of the original premise

Well your original premises have a habit of changing over time
so perhaps youd like to review it for us and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right
and wrong to actions and telling us the result is 

 
 Does that make it moral to do so
 
 Which type of morality are you talking about  In a natural sense it
 is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
 adversely affect your own I guess

Im talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign
right and wrong to actions

You tell us what type of morality that is

jon

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: 30826
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.151108.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

I like option C of the new space station design.. 
It needs some work, but it is simple and elegant..

Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex...

Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it..

Might be an idea for a Moon/Mars base to.. 

Where is Captain Eugenia(sp) when you need it (reference to russian heavy
lifter, I think).
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject 30826
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251511081
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 14
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

I like option C of the new space station design 
It needs some work but it is simple and elegant

Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex

Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it

Might be an idea for a MoonMars base to 

Where is Captain Eugeniasp when you need it reference to russian heavy
lifter I think

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  From: davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu (Dave Choweller)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: California State University, San Bernardino
Lines: 45
Nntp-Posting-Host: silicon.csci.csusb.edu

In article <1qif1g$fp3@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>In article <1qialf$p2m@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>|In article <1qi921$egl@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
[stuff deleted...]
>||> To the newsgroup at large, how about this for a deal: recognise that what 
>||> happened in former Communist Russia has as much bearing on the validity 
>||> of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their 
>||> theism.  That's zip, nada, none.  The fallacy is known as ad hominem, and 
>||> it's an old one. It should be in the Holy FAQ, in the Book of Constructing
>||> a Logical Argument :-)
>|
>|Apart from not making a lot of sense, this is wrong.   There
>|is no "atheist creed" that taught any communist what to do "in
>|the name of atheism".   There clearly are theistic creeds and
>|instructions on how to act for theists.    They all madly
>|conflict with one another, but that's another issue.
>
>Lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil.

That's like saying that, since mathematics includes no instructions on
how to act, it is evil.  Atheism is not a moral system, so why should
it speak of instructions on how to act?  *Atheism is simply lack of
belief in God*.

  Plenty of theists
>think so.   So one could argue the case for "atheism causes whatever
>I didn't like about the former USSR" with as much validity as "theism
>causes genocide" - that is to say, no validity at all.

I think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide
can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide.
This is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act,
and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide.  However, since
the atheist set of instructions is the null set, how can you show that
atheism causes genocide?
--
David Choweller (davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu)

There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moment's notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject.          --George Bernard Shaw.
-- 
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moment's notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject.          --George Bernard Shaw.

after prepro  From davecsiliconcscicsusbedu Dave Choweller
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization California State University San Bernardino
Lines 45
NntpPostingHost siliconcscicsusbedu

In article 1qif1gfp3horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1qialfp2mfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1qi921eglhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
[stuff deleted]
 To the newsgroup at large how about this for a deal recognise that what 
 happened in former Communist Russia has as much bearing on the validity 
 of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their 
 theism  Thats zip nada none  The fallacy is known as ad hominem and 
 its an old one It should be in the Holy FAQ in the Book of Constructing
 a Logical Argument 

Apart from not making a lot of sense this is wrong   There
is no atheist creed that taught any communist what to do in
the name of atheism   There clearly are theistic creeds and
instructions on how to act for theists    They all madly
conflict with one another but thats another issue

Lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil

Thats like saying that since mathematics includes no instructions on
how to act it is evil  Atheism is not a moral system so why should
it speak of instructions on how to act  Atheism is simply lack of
belief in God

  Plenty of theists
think so   So one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever
I didnt like about the former USSR with as much validity as theism
causes genocide  that is to say no validity at all

I think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide
can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide
This is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act
and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide  However since
the atheist set of instructions is the null set how can you show that
atheism causes genocide

David Choweller davecsiliconcscicsusbedu

There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moments notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject          George Bernard Shaw
 
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moments notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject          George Bernard Shaw

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: RIMSAT, US/Russian joint venture
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 121


I've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. I've 
transcribed some of my notes below.  Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine.  Permission is 
granted to copy this without restriction.

Michael Sternberg, Cheif of Operations of RIMSAT, was invited to speak at an
informal lunch held by ACDIS here on the campus of the University of Illinois.
ACDIS is an organization on campus that deals with Arms Control, Disarmament and
International Security.  RIMSAT was considered an appropriate topic because the
company is using Russian launchers and satellites.  I think it also helped that
his daughter is a grad student in the International Relations program.

The concept behind RIMSAT apparently began when Matt Neilson (?) went to Tonga
to visit a friend.  While he was there, he somehow ended up visiting the king,
who happened to be a big TV fan.  Matt bought the King a satellite dish, which 
the king thought was really nifty.  Since Tonga has a GNP of about $70 million,
His Majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this.  Matt thought
there probably was, so at his suggestion, Tonga applied for 31 geosynchronous
satellite slots.  While this isn't entirely off the wall, it was very unusual,
seeing as Tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program, and 31 is a lot of
slots.

The whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and Carl
Hilliard (who is apparently a respected space lawyer) wrote several opinions
supporting Tonga's case.  Eventually Tonga ended up with 7 slots, ranging from 
70 E to 170 E (slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside).
According to Sternberg, four of these, from 130 E to 142 E are the best in the
world because they are excellently placed for communications between Hawaii and 
the Pacific Rim. 

RIMSAT was formed to use these slots. It was officially formed in Nevis as a tax
haven.  They tried for a few years to raise funds in the west, however, to
fill 7 slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have
cost approximately $2 billion.  It's not easy to raise that kind of money.
Eventually, they hit upon the idea of using Russian hardware.  They began 
negotiating with Glavkosmos for hardware.  Mr Sternberg describes operating in 
Moscow in such harsh terms that I don't think I'll visit there for a long time.
Besides a significant lack of creature comforts, he was not happy with the way
that people operate.  For example "everybody can sell you everything."  
Everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the
only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by.

Eventually, RIMSAT arranged a deal with Glavkosmos for 6 satellites at a cost
of $150 million.  However, Glavkosmos lost favor after the coup.  Sternberg
says that this is because they were basically a bunch of KGB operatives who 
went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures.  Since Glavkosmos was
out of power, he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities.  He
again described life in a Moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms.  Eventually,
he worked out a deal and on Dec 4, 1992 he met with Koptev, who heads the 
Russian space program, to sign the deal.  Koptev insisted on a few concessions
before signing and according to Sternberg he arranged these new rules to 
allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as RIMSAT.

The next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware, NPO Applied 
Mechanics -- NPO PM to use their acronym.  This organization is located in 
Siberia (can't figure out how to spell the town, I need an atlas) and has built
about 1500 vehicles since the dawn of the space age.  Sternberg commented that
siberians are very different from Musovites.  They are hard workers, honest
people who team up to get things done, very much like midwesterners.  At this
point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on
both siberians and midwesterners :-)

Sternberg had lots of good things to say about NPO PM.  His company is 
apparently lookng for $100 million to invest in the firm to become 50% partners.It apparently costs the Russians about $4 million to build a satellite that
would sell for $50 million in the west.  If you want to give them 
specifications, they'll build you a satellite.  For the particular satellites
that RIMSAT will be using, costs run about $378,000 per transponder year.  This
compares to $810,000 t/y in the U.S.  They can sell their time for about $1.1
million compared to $2.6 million in the U.S.  RIMSAT will launch their 
satellites on Protons.  To get the best prices, they bought in bulk.  They 
have the rights to twelve launches, so if any of you need a lift I can give
you their address.  The first launch is scheduled for October and they are
getting one used satellite from the Russians, which is being moved into place
now.

Tidbits:

*  Sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs, not big
business because big business is just like what they have over there, except
that "we have better paper, both in the bathroom and in the copier."

*  Russian launches are self insured.  The promise to replace a failed launch
within 9 months.

*  Major investors in RIMSAT include Russell 20/20, which is a huge retirement
fund organization, Cellsat, which is a big telecom business in southeast Asia,
and a fund operated by some of the big names in U.S aerospace which he says is
sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off.

*  He downplayed the instabilites in the ex-USSR saying that we are worried
partly because we aren't used to seeing Russia as anything but an unvarying
monolith.  Italy gets a new government "every two weeks" but we don't worry 
because we're used to it.  He predicted that once we get used to seeing what
really goes on in Russia we won't worry about their stability as much.

*  Part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering
money.  The central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments, putting
25% in their coffers and replacing the rest with the "equivalent" value in 
rubles.  To get around this, RIMSAT pays their hard currency into an Austrian
bank account.  NPO PM then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that
the only the contractors get swindled by the government.

*  One of the big problems RIMSAT has had is stonewalling by the western 
satellite industry.  However, Intelsat recently bought three of the same type
of satellites, which was rather reassuring.

*  The biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive
technology and shorter lifetime.  The older Gorizont (Horizon) satellites have
a lifetime of about 5 years, while the more modern Express satellites compare
well with western technology and last about 8 years.  While this is much 
shorter than 15 years for western satellites, Sternberg downplayed the 
difference.  At these prices they can afford to launch new ones.  In addition,
shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer
technology so they will be able to compete better than older, out of date
hardware.

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject RIMSAT USRussian joint venture
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 121


Ive been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest Ive 
transcribed some of my notes below  Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine  Permission is 
granted to copy this without restriction

Michael Sternberg Cheif of Operations of RIMSAT was invited to speak at an
informal lunch held by ACDIS here on the campus of the University of Illinois
ACDIS is an organization on campus that deals with Arms Control Disarmament and
International Security  RIMSAT was considered an appropriate topic because the
company is using Russian launchers and satellites  I think it also helped that
his daughter is a grad student in the International Relations program

The concept behind RIMSAT apparently began when Matt Neilson  went to Tonga
to visit a friend  While he was there he somehow ended up visiting the king
who happened to be a big TV fan  Matt bought the King a satellite dish which 
the king thought was really nifty  Since Tonga has a GNP of about 70 million
His Majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this  Matt thought
there probably was so at his suggestion Tonga applied for 31 geosynchronous
satellite slots  While this isnt entirely off the wall it was very unusual
seeing as Tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program and 31 is a lot of
slots

The whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and Carl
Hilliard who is apparently a respected space lawyer wrote several opinions
supporting Tongas case  Eventually Tonga ended up with 7 slots ranging from 
70 E to 170 E slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside
According to Sternberg four of these from 130 E to 142 E are the best in the
world because they are excellently placed for communications between Hawaii and 
the Pacific Rim 

RIMSAT was formed to use these slots It was officially formed in Nevis as a tax
haven  They tried for a few years to raise funds in the west however to
fill 7 slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have
cost approximately 2 billion  Its not easy to raise that kind of money
Eventually they hit upon the idea of using Russian hardware  They began 
negotiating with Glavkosmos for hardware  Mr Sternberg describes operating in 
Moscow in such harsh terms that I dont think Ill visit there for a long time
Besides a significant lack of creature comforts he was not happy with the way
that people operate  For example everybody can sell you everything  
Everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the
only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by

Eventually RIMSAT arranged a deal with Glavkosmos for 6 satellites at a cost
of 150 million  However Glavkosmos lost favor after the coup  Sternberg
says that this is because they were basically a bunch of KGB operatives who 
went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures  Since Glavkosmos was
out of power he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities  He
again described life in a Moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms  Eventually
he worked out a deal and on Dec 4 1992 he met with Koptev who heads the 
Russian space program to sign the deal  Koptev insisted on a few concessions
before signing and according to Sternberg he arranged these new rules to 
allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as RIMSAT

The next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware NPO Applied 
Mechanics  NPO PM to use their acronym  This organization is located in 
Siberia cant figure out how to spell the town I need an atlas and has built
about 1500 vehicles since the dawn of the space age  Sternberg commented that
siberians are very different from Musovites  They are hard workers honest
people who team up to get things done very much like midwesterners  At this
point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on
both siberians and midwesterners 

Sternberg had lots of good things to say about NPO PM  His company is 
apparently lookng for 100 million to invest in the firm to become 50 partnersIt apparently costs the Russians about 4 million to build a satellite that
would sell for 50 million in the west  If you want to give them 
specifications theyll build you a satellite  For the particular satellites
that RIMSAT will be using costs run about 378000 per transponder year  This
compares to 810000 ty in the US  They can sell their time for about 11
million compared to 26 million in the US  RIMSAT will launch their 
satellites on Protons  To get the best prices they bought in bulk  They 
have the rights to twelve launches so if any of you need a lift I can give
you their address  The first launch is scheduled for October and they are
getting one used satellite from the Russians which is being moved into place
now

Tidbits

  Sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs not big
business because big business is just like what they have over there except
that we have better paper both in the bathroom and in the copier

  Russian launches are self insured  The promise to replace a failed launch
within 9 months

  Major investors in RIMSAT include Russell 2020 which is a huge retirement
fund organization Cellsat which is a big telecom business in southeast Asia
and a fund operated by some of the big names in US aerospace which he says is
sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off

  He downplayed the instabilites in the exUSSR saying that we are worried
partly because we arent used to seeing Russia as anything but an unvarying
monolith  Italy gets a new government every two weeks but we dont worry 
because were used to it  He predicted that once we get used to seeing what
really goes on in Russia we wont worry about their stability as much

  Part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering
money  The central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments putting
25 in their coffers and replacing the rest with the equivalent value in 
rubles  To get around this RIMSAT pays their hard currency into an Austrian
bank account  NPO PM then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that
the only the contractors get swindled by the government

  One of the big problems RIMSAT has had is stonewalling by the western 
satellite industry  However Intelsat recently bought three of the same type
of satellites which was rather reassuring

  The biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive
technology and shorter lifetime  The older Gorizont Horizon satellites have
a lifetime of about 5 years while the more modern Express satellites compare
well with western technology and last about 8 years  While this is much 
shorter than 15 years for western satellites Sternberg downplayed the 
difference  At these prices they can afford to launch new ones  In addition
shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer
technology so they will be able to compete better than older out of date
hardware

 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C5uB2s.FD@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes...
>In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer) writes:
>There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life.

Not quite true.  One of the instruments on Mars Observer will be searching
for potential fossil sites.   

>>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
> 
>Mars Observer, currently approaching Mars, will probably try to get a better
>image or two of the "face" at some point.  It's not high priority; nobody
>takes it very seriously.  The shadowed half of the face does not look very
>face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
>the illusion.

The face and the Viking landing sites will be targeted by the high-resolution
camera on Mars Observer.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 24
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer writes
There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life

Not quite true  One of the instruments on Mars Observer will be searching
for potential fossil sites   

Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
 
Mars Observer currently approaching Mars will probably try to get a better
image or two of the face at some point  Its not high priority nobody
takes it very seriously  The shadowed half of the face does not look very
facelike so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion

The face and the Viking landing sites will be targeted by the highresolution
camera on Mars Observer
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: agar.engin.umich.edu

In article <66019@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:
>
>>     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.
>
>"Contradictory" is a property of language.  If I correct this to
>
>      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>I will object to definitions as reality.  If you then amend it to
>
>      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>then we've come to something which is plainly false.  Failures in
>description are merely failures in description.

 How about this description: "An object that is, at one time, both a
Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle"? I hold that no object satisfying
this description could exist. The description is inconsistent, and hence
describes an object that could not exist.
 Now, suppose someone pointed to a bicycle, and said, "That object is,
at one time, both a Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle." This does
not mean that the bicycle does not exist, it measn that the description
was incorrectly applied.
 
 The atheist says, "The descriptions of God that I have been presented with
are contradictory, and hence describe something that cannot exist."
 Now, your position (so far as I can gather) is that God exists, but the
descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions
of It.
 This is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle, and,
when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one,
are told that it is a "Euclidean circle-square". Can they be blamed for
doubting rather strongly that this 'bicycle' exists at all?

>(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)

 No kidding. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles               ingles@engin.umich.edu

 "The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein

after prepro  From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 45
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost agarenginumichedu

In article 66019mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Benedikt Rosenau writes with great authority

     IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST

Contradictory is a property of language  If I correct this to

      THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

I will object to definitions as reality  If you then amend it to

      THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST

then weve come to something which is plainly false  Failures in
description are merely failures in description

 How about this description An object that is at one time both a
Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle I hold that no object satisfying
this description could exist The description is inconsistent and hence
describes an object that could not exist
 Now suppose someone pointed to a bicycle and said That object is
at one time both a Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle This does
not mean that the bicycle does not exist it measn that the description
was incorrectly applied
 
 The atheist says The descriptions of God that I have been presented with
are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist
 Now your position so far as I can gather is that God exists but the
descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions
of It
 This is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle and
when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one
are told that it is a Euclidean circlesquare Can they be blamed for
doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists at all

Im not an objectivist remember

 No kidding 

 Sincerely

 Ray Ingles               inglesenginumichedu

 The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars  Robert A Heinlein

preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


In article <25228@ksr.com>, jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods) writes:
>nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson) writes:
>>jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
>>>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>>>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>>>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.
>>I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
>>to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
>>said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
>>during assembly of one SRB.

It was a test of the first reusable tool.

>
>I assume, then, that someone at Thiokol put on their "manager's hat" and said
>that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
>it was a bad idea, regardless of where that tool might have ended up.
>
>Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol "manager's hats" are shaped like cones?

Pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better, and
be closer to their brains?
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Lines 31
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


In article 25228ksrcom jfwksrcom John F Woods writes
nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson writes
jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case
I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB

It was a test of the first reusable tool


I assume then that someone at Thiokol put on their managers hat and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up

Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol managers hats are shaped like cones

Pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better and
be closer to their brains

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood  We need
pyronskndivdsegticom          solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909                     


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



I once read an article on  Computer technology  which stated that 
every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it
replaced.  Silicon was less  effective then the germanium  products
then available.   GaAs  was less capable then Silicon.  Multi-processors
were slower then  existent single processors.

What the argument was, though was that these new technologies promised either
theoretically future higher performance  or lower cost or higher densities.

I think that the DC-1  may g=fit into this same model.

ELV's can certainly launch more weight  then  a SSRT,  but 
an SSRT offers the prospect of  greater cycle times and  lower costs.

This is kind of a speculative posting,  but I thought i'd throw it out as
a hjistorical framework  for those interested in the project.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



I once read an article on  Computer technology  which stated that 
every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it
replaced  Silicon was less  effective then the germanium  products
then available   GaAs  was less capable then Silicon  Multiprocessors
were slower then  existent single processors

What the argument was though was that these new technologies promised either
theoretically future higher performance  or lower cost or higher densities

I think that the DC1  may gfit into this same model

ELVs can certainly launch more weight  then  a SSRT  but 
an SSRT offers the prospect of  greater cycle times and  lower costs

This is kind of a speculative posting  but I thought id throw it out as
a hjistorical framework  for those interested in the project

pat

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
 <SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> <kmr4.1444.734058912@po.CWRU.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Lines: 26

In article <kmr4.1444.734058912@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes...
>In article <SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:
>>:> God is eternal.    [A = B]
>>:> Jesus is God.      [C = A]
>>:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal.  [C = B]
>>
>>:> This works both logically and mathematically.  God is of the set of
>>:> things which are eternal.  Jesus is a subset of God.   Therefore
>>:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.

The first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity
statements, since the "is" in those statements is the "is" of predication
rather than of identity.  Instead, they should be translated using a
predicate letter.  Using "g" to designate God and "j" to designate Jesus,
and the predicate letter "E" for the property of being eternal, the
first premise is Eg and the conclusion is Ej.
    The second premise appears to contain an "is" of identity, in which
case it can be properly symbolized as j = g.  But your remark that "Jesus
is a subset of God" suggests that strict identity is not desired here.
If, however, the first premise means that all members making up the set
God have the property of being eternal, the same conclusion follows.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721

after prepro  Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
  
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
Lines 26

In article  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article  suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki writes
 God is eternal    [A  B]
 Jesus is God      [C  A]
 Therefore Jesus is eternal  [C  B]

 This works both logically and mathematically  God is of the set of
 things which are eternal  Jesus is a subset of God   Therefore
 Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal

The first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity
statements since the is in those statements is the is of predication
rather than of identity  Instead they should be translated using a
predicate letter  Using g to designate God and j to designate Jesus
and the predicate letter E for the property of being eternal the
first premise is Eg and the conclusion is Ej
    The second premise appears to contain an is of identity in which
case it can be properly symbolized as j  g  But your remark that Jesus
is a subset of God suggests that strict identity is not desired here
If however the first premise means that all members making up the set
God have the property of being eternal the same conclusion follows

Jim Lippard              LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy      LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721

preprocess doc  From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: STS-56 Press Kit
Lines: 9
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 9

Does anyone know ifthe STS-56 email press kit was ever released?

-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
              Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).

   (WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min

after prepro  From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject STS56 Press Kit
Lines 9
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 9

Does anyone know ifthe STS56 email press kit was ever released

Tony Ryan Astronomy  Space new International magazine available from
              Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress

   WORLDS LARGEST ASTRO SOC per capita  unless you know better 0033
Tel 0891881950 UKNIreland 1550111442 Eire Cost up to 48p per min

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes...
>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts.  For
>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.  

It can be, but the problem is a political one, not a technical one. 
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 15
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts  For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again  

It can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one 
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr3.195642.25261@njitgw.njit.edu>, dmu5391@hertz.njit.edu (David Utidjian Eng.Sci.) writes...
>In article <31MAR199321091163@juliet.caltech.edu> lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.) writes:
>	For a complete description of what is, and is not atheism
>or agnosticism see the FAQ for alt.atheism in alt.answers... I think.
>utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu

 I apologize for posting this. I thought it was only going to talk.origins.
I also took my definitions from a 1938 Websters.
 Nonetheless, the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like
'bimonthly' and 'biweekly' they have no commonly accepted definitions and
should be used with care.

larry henling  lmh@shakes.caltech.edu

after prepro  From lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization California Institute of Technology
Lines 13
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost julietcaltechedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr319564225261njitgwnjitedu dmu5391hertznjitedu David Utidjian EngSci writes
In article 31MAR199321091163julietcaltechedu lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M writes
	For a complete description of what is and is not atheism
or agnosticism see the FAQ for altatheism in altanswers I think
utidjianremarqueberkeleyedu

 I apologize for posting this I thought it was only going to talkorigins
I also took my definitions from a 1938 Websters
 Nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like
bimonthly and biweekly they have no commonly accepted definitions and
should be used with care

larry henling  lmhshakescaltechedu

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20

In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
>  I propose that these two trends -- greater level of general 
> depression in society (and other psychological problems) and 
> greater sexual promiscuity -- are linked, with the latter being 
> a prime cause of the former.  I cannot provide any evidence beyond 
> this at this stage, but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to 
> me and I request that people ponder upon it.

I pondered it for all of ten seconds when I realised that since
we don't have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity,
and since the whole issue of "depression" isn't at all well 
defined for earlier centuries, you are probably talking crap.

Of course, you could pull a Mozumder on us, and say that people
who are having sex outside marriage are *defined* to be depressed.

I can't say I'd ever noticed, myself.

jon. 

after prepro  Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20

In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes

  I propose that these two trends  greater level of general 
 depression in society and other psychological problems and 
 greater sexual promiscuity  are linked with the latter being 
 a prime cause of the former  I cannot provide any evidence beyond 
 this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to 
 me and I request that people ponder upon it

I pondered it for all of ten seconds when I realised that since
we dont have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity
and since the whole issue of depression isnt at all well 
defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap

Of course you could pull a Mozumder on us and say that people
who are having sex outside marriage are defined to be depressed

I cant say Id ever noticed myself

jon 

preprocess doc  From: almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM (Alan Monday-WWCS Business Mgt. Group)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Reply-To: almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: packmind.ebay.sun.com

Hey!? What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus+500?

In article 29848@news.duc.auburn.edu, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
>
>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
> back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information.
>
>Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?





after prepro  From almopackmindEBaySunCOM Alan MondayWWCS Business Mgt Group
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization Sun Microsystems Inc
Lines 14
Distribution world
ReplyTo almopackmindEBaySunCOM
NNTPPostingHost packmindebaysuncom

Hey What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus500

In article 29848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes

I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
 Sails I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
 back in the late 70s but I am having trouble gathering such information

Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project 





preprocess doc  From: msjohnso@donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: NCR Corporation Wichita, KS
Lines: 86

pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:

>I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
>the back.  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
>science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
>It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.

The company was probably "Public Missiles, Inc" of Michigan.

>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M".  They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.

Yup.

>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal?  I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
>Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.

Nope, it's not illegal. It is, however, closely regulated. In order to 
purchase and use the big rocket motors required, it is necessary to be
one of the following:
a) An employee of a government agency.
b) An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets.
c) A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets. There are two such organizations: 
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry.
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own.

The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations, upon request, to any 
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions 
to avoid conflicts with aircraft. The usual stipulations are:
- Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed. Depending on the
location, this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL. 
- The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site.
- Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited.
- The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time.

Most of the launches that are held (and there are dozens of them every year)
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light, such as over the
western deserts (the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of *nothing to hit* on the ground).

The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members'
use, to insure safety. Depending on motor size, the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet. 

By the way, rockets under 1 lb and powered by an "F" motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway. See FAR 101, Subpart
C, for details.

As for recovery...although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50,000 feet, most of them only get to 2,000 to 5,000 feet. The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter, and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute,
or multiple parachutes, depending on the payload. Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounder--particularly at launches
in the eastern US, where there are more obstructions.

Camera, telemetry transmitter, and video payloads are becoming quite common.

>And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one.  I'm not that crazy.

Why not? It's a lot of fun...check out the traffic on rec.models.rockets
for information about the model (3 lb and under) and high power (everything
bigger) rocket hobbies. As with all dangerous activities, the key is to
practice safety. I've been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 4-5 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years, and still have all my extremities intact.

>-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas

That's another thing. NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS. NONE! Please forgive me for shouting, but that's one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby. 

>/*            Just remember, you *WILL* die someday.             */
True. But it will not be related to the rocket hobby, unless I get 
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand. 
-- 
Mark Johnson                          USnail: NCR Peripheral Products Division
E-mail:  Mark.Johnson@WichitaKS.NCR.COM       3718 N. Rock Rd.
Voice: (316) 636-8189 [V+ 654-8189]           Wichita, KS  67226
[Non-business email: 76670.1775@compuserve.com]

after prepro  From msjohnsodonaldWichitaKSNCRCOM Mark Johnson
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization NCR Corporation Wichita KS
Lines 86

pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes

I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that

The company was probably Public Missiles Inc of Michigan

Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet

Yup

Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal  I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down

Nope its not illegal It is however closely regulated In order to 
purchase and use the big rocket motors required it is necessary to be
one of the following
a An employee of a government agency
b An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets
c A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets There are two such organizations 
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own

The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations upon request to any 
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions 
to avoid conflicts with aircraft The usual stipulations are
 Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed Depending on the
location this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL 
 The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site
 Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited
 The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time

Most of the launches that are held and there are dozens of them every year
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light such as over the
western deserts the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of nothing to hit on the ground

The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members
use to insure safety Depending on motor size the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet 

By the way rockets under 1 lb and powered by an F motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway See FAR 101 Subpart
C for details

As for recoveryalthough the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50000 feet most of them only get to 2000 to 5000 feet The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute
or multiple parachutes depending on the payload Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounderparticularly at launches
in the eastern US where there are more obstructions

Camera telemetry transmitter and video payloads are becoming quite common

And no Im not going to even think of buying one  Im not that crazy

Why not Its a lot of funcheck out the traffic on recmodelsrockets
for information about the model 3 lb and under and high power everything
bigger rocket hobbies As with all dangerous activities the key is to
practice safety Ive been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 45 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years and still have all my extremities intact

Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas

Thats another thing NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS NONE Please forgive me for shouting but thats one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby 

            Just remember you WILL die someday             
True But it will not be related to the rocket hobby unless I get 
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand 
 
Mark Johnson                          USnail NCR Peripheral Products Division
Email  MarkJohnsonWichitaKSNCRCOM       3718 N Rock Rd
Voice 316 6368189 [V 6548189]           Wichita KS  67226
[Nonbusiness email 766701775compuservecom]

preprocess doc  From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: Looking for a little research help [ addendum]
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 10
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com

Sorry but I forgot this ps.

Right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so it's 
kind of necessary (to me) that any responses be sent to me directly.


Thanks a lot

Jennise
     jennise@dgi.com  

after prepro  From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject Looking for a little research help [ addendum]
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 10
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom

Sorry but I forgot this ps

Right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so its 
kind of necessary to me that any responses be sent to me directly


Thanks a lot

Jennise
     jennisedgicom  

preprocess doc  From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re)
Subject: Re: atheist?
Reply-To: lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA
Organization: MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines: 33

Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
>belief for me to be comfortable with. Any strong atheists out there
>care to comment? As far as I can tell, strong atheists are far
>outnumbered on alt.atheism by weak atheists.

At the cost of repudiating the FAQ, I think too much is made of the
strong vs weak atheism issue, although in the context of alt.atheism,
where we're continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists
"believe" in the non-existence of god, I think the separation is a
valid one.

To cover my arse, what I'm trying to say is that there is an
infinitely grey area between weak and strong, as well as between
strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism (I wish!).  Whereas I
_logically_ can only support the weak atheist position, in effect I am
a strong atheist (and wish I could be a mathematical one).  To
justify my strong atheist position I believe I need only show that
the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny
is faulty.

If I read the FAQ correctly, no argument for the existence of god
(generic, as represented by mainstream theologians) has ever been
found to be unassailable.  To me this is adequate evidence that the
_real_god_ is undefinable (or at least no definition has yet been
found to be watertight), which in turn I accept as sufficient to
base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god.

I'm a little fuzzy on the edges, though, so opinions are welcome
(but perhaps we should change the thread subject).
-- 
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA) - tab stops at four.

after prepro  From lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re
Subject Re atheist
ReplyTo lucioproximaAltZA
Organization MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines 33

Tony Lezard  writes

My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
belief for me to be comfortable with Any strong atheists out there
care to comment As far as I can tell strong atheists are far
outnumbered on altatheism by weak atheists

At the cost of repudiating the FAQ I think too much is made of the
strong vs weak atheism issue although in the context of altatheism
where were continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists
believe in the nonexistence of god I think the separation is a
valid one

To cover my arse what Im trying to say is that there is an
infinitely grey area between weak and strong as well as between
strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism I wish  Whereas I
_logically_ can only support the weak atheist position in effect I am
a strong atheist and wish I could be a mathematical one  To
justify my strong atheist position I believe I need only show that
the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny
is faulty

If I read the FAQ correctly no argument for the existence of god
generic as represented by mainstream theologians has ever been
found to be unassailable  To me this is adequate evidence that the
_real_god_ is undefinable or at least no definition has yet been
found to be watertight which in turn I accept as sufficient to
base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god

Im a little fuzzy on the edges though so opinions are welcome
but perhaps we should change the thread subject
 
Lucio de Re lucioproximaAltZA  tab stops at four

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 8

Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:

: 	Nice cop out bill.

I'm sure you're right, but I have no idea to what you refer. Would you
mind explaining how I copped out?

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 8

Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote

 	Nice cop out bill

Im sure youre right but I have no idea to what you refer Would you
mind explaining how I copped out

Bill

preprocess doc  From: cchung@sneezy.phy.duke.edu (Charles Chung)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: bashful.phy.duke.edu

In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary  
Coffman) writes:
> >Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
> >be significant commerical activity on the Moon?
> 
> Wishful thinking mostly.
[Lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbase=fantasyland]

Then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the  
earth?  I'm not trying to flame you.  I just want to know where you  
stand.

-Chuck
---
*******************************************************************

	Chuck Chung				(919) 660-2539 (O)
	Duke University Dept. of Physics	(919) 684-1517 (H)
	Durham, N.C.      27706			cchung@phy.duke.edu
	
	"If pro is the opposite of con, 
		then what is the opposite of progress?"

*******************************************************************

after prepro  From cchungsneezyphydukeedu Charles Chung
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost bashfulphydukeedu

In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary  
Coffman writes
 Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
 be significant commerical activity on the Moon
 
 Wishful thinking mostly
[Lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbasefantasyland]

Then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the  
earth  Im not trying to flame you  I just want to know where you  
stand

Chuck



	Chuck Chung				919 6602539 O
	Duke University Dept of Physics	919 6841517 H
	Durham NC      27706			cchungphydukeedu
	
	If pro is the opposite of con 
		then what is the opposite of progress



preprocess doc  From: jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA,  USA
Distribution: sci
Lines: 23

From article <C5owCB.n3p@world.std.com>, by tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker):
>>In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>>>"Clear caution & warning memory.  Verify no unexpected
>>>errors. ...".  I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>>>be.  Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
> 
> Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered.
>    "Yes that is an error, but we already knew about it"
> I'd be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is.
> 
> tom


My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.

 - Jonathan



after prepro  From jcmheadcfaharvardedu Jonathan McDowell
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
Organization Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory Cambridge MA  USA
Distribution sci
Lines 23

From article  by tombakerworldstdcom Tom A Baker
In article  ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
Clear caution  warning memory  Verify no unexpected
errors   I am wondering what an expected error might
be  Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
 
 Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered
    Yes that is an error but we already knew about it
 Id be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is
 
 tom


My understanding is that the expected errors are basically
known bugs in the warning system software  things are checked
that dont have the right values in yet because they arent
set till after launch and suchlike Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew
ok if you see a warning no 213 before liftoff ignore it

  Jonathan



preprocess doc  Subject: Space FAQ 03/15 - Data Sources
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:55:35 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <data_730956427@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 463

Archive-name: space/data
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:07 $

ONLINE AND OTHER SOURCES OF IMAGES, DATA, ETC.


INTRODUCTION

    A wide variety of images, data, catalogs, information releases, and
    other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net.
    A few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access, while the
    remainder support some form of file transfer. Many sites are listed as
    providing 'anonymous FTP'. This refers to the File Transfer Protocol on
    the Internet. Sites not connected to the Internet cannot use FTP
    directly, but there are a few automated FTP servers which operates via
    email. Send mail containing only the word HELP to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com
    or bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu, and the servers will send you instructions
    on how to make requests.

    The sources with the broadest selection of material are the NASA Ames
    SPACE archive and the National Space Science Data Center.

    Don't even ask for images to be posted to the net. The data volume is
    huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it.


VIEWING IMAGES

    The possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly
    large, and I won't attempt to cover common formats (GIF, etc.) here. To
    read PDS and VICAR (and many other) formats on Unix systems running X,
    use XV 2.11, available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu
    (18.24.0.12) in contrib/xv-2.11.tar.Z and the other standard X11 FTP
    sites.

    The FAQ for the Usenet group alt.binaries.pictures discusses image
    formats and how to get image viewing software. A copy of this document
    is available by anonymous FTP from the Usenet FAQ archives at
    pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), in directory
    pub/usenet/alt.binaries.pictures.


ONLINE ARCHIVES

    NASA AMES

    Extensive archives are maintained at NASA Ames and are available via
    anonymous FTP or an email server. These archives include many images and
    a wide variety of documents including this FAQ list, NASA press
    releases, shuttle launch advisories, and mission status reports. Please
    note that these are NOT maintained on an official basis.

    FTP users should connect to ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) and look in
    pub/SPACE. pub/SPACE/Index contains a listing of files available in the
    archive (the index is about 200K by itself).

    To access the archives by email, send a letter to
    archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). In the
    subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like:

	send SPACE Index
	send SPACE SHUTTLE/ss01.23.91.

    The capitalization of the subdirectory names is important. All are in
    caps. Only text files are handled by the email server at present; use
    one of the FTP email servers described in the introduction to this
    section for images or programs.

    The Magellan Venus and Voyager Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus CD-ROM image
    disks have been put online in the CDROM and CDROM2 directories. The
    disks will be rotated on a weekly basis. Thousands of images are
    available in these collections.

    The GIF directory contains images in GIF format. The VICAR directory
    contains Magellan images in VICAR format (these are also available in
    the GIF directory). A PC program capable of displaying these files is
    found in the IMDISP directory (see the item "VIEWING IMAGES" below).

    The NASA media guide describes the various NASA centers and how to
    contact their public affairs officers; this may be useful when pursuing
    specific information. It's in MISC/media.guide.

    Any problems with the archive server should be reported to Peter Yee
    (yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov).


    NASA ASTROPHYSICS DATA SYSTEM

    The ADS is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and
    provides uniform access to ground-based and space-based astronomy data
    from NASA data centers across the country. It currently has over 140
    data catalogs of radio, infrared, optical, UV, and X-ray data which can
    be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog. The ADS
    also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results. In addition,
    ADS has a Beta version of an Abstracts Service which allows users to
    query over 125,000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors,
    keywords, title words, or abstract text words.

    ADS use requires direct Internet access. For more info and to sign up to
    become a user, email ads@cuads.coloradu.edu. The User's Guide and
    "QuickStart" Guide are available by anonymous FTP to sao-ftp.harvard.edu
    in directory pub/ads/ADS_User_Guide (PostScript files).

    Contact Carolyn Stern Grant (stern@cfa.harvard.edu).


    NASA JET PROPULSION LAB (MISSION INFORMATION AND IMAGES)

    pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2) is an anonymous FTP site operated by
    the JPL Public Information Office, containing news releases, status
    reports, fact sheets, images, and other data on JPL missions. It may
    also be reached by modem at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1
    stop bit).

    Contact newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170.


    NASA LANGLEY (TECHNICAL REPORTS)

    techreports.larc.nasa.gov is an anonymous FTP site offering technical
    reports. To get started, cd to directory pub/techreports/larc/92 and
    retrieve files README and abstracts.92. Most files are compressed
    PostScript. The reports are also in a WAIS database with the following
    description:

	(:source
	 :version 3
	 :ip-name "techreports.larc.nasa.gov"
	 :tcp-port 210
	 :database-name "nasa-larc-abs"
	 :cost 0.00
	 :cost-unit :free
	 :maintainer "M.L.Nelson@LaRC.NASA.GOV"
	 :description "NASA Langley Research Center Technical Reports

    Contact tr-admin@techreports.larc.nasa.gov.


    NASA SPACELINK

    SpaceLink is an online service located at Marshall Space Flight Center
    in Huntsville, Alabama. The system is specifically designed for
    teachers. The data base is arranged to provide easy access to current
    and historical information on NASA aeronautics, space research, and
    technology transfer information. Also included are suggested classroom
    activities that incorporate information on NASA projects to teach a
    number of scientific principles. Unlike bulletin board systems, NASA
    Spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers. However it
    does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments
    for NASA which may be answered by regular mail. Messages are answered
    electronically, even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by
    mail. Messages are generally handled the next working day except during
    missions when turnaround times increase. The mail system is closed-loop
    between the user and NASA.

    SpaceLink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs
    useful for science educators as well as space graphics and GIF images
    from NASA's planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope.

    You can dial in at (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(V.32) baud, 8
    bits, no parity, 1 stop bit), or telnet to spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov
    (128.158.13.250, also known as xsl.msfc.nasa.gov) if you're on the
    Internet. Anonymous FTP capability (password guest) is now available.

    Most of this information is also available from the Ames server in
    directory SPACELINK.


    NATIONAL SPACE SCIENCE DATA CENTER (NSSDC)

    The National Space Science Data Center is the official clearinghouse for
    NASA data. The data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online.
    Internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.36.23) and
    log in as 'NODIS' (no password). You can also get the catalog by sending
    email to 'request@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov'.

    You can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits,
    no parity, one stop). At the "Enter Number:" prompt, enter MD and
    carriage return. When the system responds "Call Complete," enter a few
    more carriage returns to get the "Username:" and log in as 'NODIS' (no
    password).

    The system is menu-driven; topics available as of 3/93 are:

	1   -	Master Directory - NASA & Global Change
	2   -	Personnel Information Management System
	3   -	Nimbus-7 GRID TOMS Data
	4   -	Interplanetary Medium Data (OMNI)
	5   -	Request data and/or information from NSSDC
	6   -	Geophysical Models
	7   -	CANOPUS Newsletter
	8   -	International Ultraviolet Explorer Data Request
	9   -	CZCS Browse and Order Utility
	10  -	Astronomical Data Center (ADC)
	11  -	STEP Bulletin Board Service
	12  -	Standards and Technology Information System
	13  -	Planetary Science & Magellan Project Information
	14  -	Other Online Data Services at NSSDC
	15  -	CD-ROMS Available at NSSDC

    For users with Internet access, datasets are made available via
    anonymous FTP once you select the desired datasets from the online
    catalog. For other users, data may be ordered on CD-ROM and in other
    formats. Among the many types of data available are Voyager, Magellan,
    and other planetary images, Earth observation data, and star catalogs.
    Viewers for Macintosh and IBM systems are also available. As an example
    of the cost, an 8 CD set of Voyager images is $75. Data may ordered
    online, by email, or by physical mail. The postal address is:

	National Space Science Data Center
	Request Coordination Office
	Goddard Space Flight Center
	Code 633
	Greenbelt, MD  20771

	Telephone: (301) 286-6695

	Email address:	 request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov


    SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE

    stsci.edu (130.167.1.2) has a large amount of information about the
    Hubble Space Telescope available by anonymous FTP, such as status
    reports and newsletters, in addition to material oriented towards HST
    observers and proposers. Get the top level README file to begin with.
    Contact Pete Reppert (reppert@stsci.edu) or Chris O'Dea
    (odea@stsci.edu).


    STARCAT

    The Space Telescope European Coordination Facility, at ESO/Garching
    provides on-line access to a huge astronomical database, featuring

	- Observation log files of several satellites/telescopes
	    (IUE,IRAS,HST,NTT...).
	- Spectra and images (IUE, HST).
	- Most of the astronomical catalogues (SAO, HR, NGC, PPM, IRAS,
	    Veron, GSC and many others, more than 50) in a very convenient
	    way (give center+radius+kind of objects, and you get the
	    corresponding files!).

    Log on as ``starcat'' (no password) on node stesis.hq.eso.org
    (134.171.8.100) or on STESIS (DECnet). The files created can be
    retreived by FTP. Contact: Benoit Pirenne, bpirenne@eso.org (phone +49
    89 320 06 433) at ST-ECF


    ASTRONOMICAL DATABASES

    The full SAO stellar database is *NOT* available online, probably due to
    the 40 MB size. It may be ordered on magnetic tape from the NSSDC. A
    subset containing position and magnitude only is available by FTP (see
    "Astronomy Programs" below).

    nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) has a large collection of astronomical
    programs for many types of computers, databases of stars and deep sky
    objects, and general astronomy information in directory /pub/astro. This
    site is mainly for European users, but overseas connections are
    possible.

    The Ames archives contain a database of 8,436 galaxies including name,
    RA, declination, magnitude, and radial velocity in MISC/galaxy.dat.
    Supplied by Wayne Hayes (wayne@csri.utoronto.ca).

    iris1.ucis.dal.ca (129.173.18.107) has a number of GIFs from Voyager,
    Hubble, and other sources available by anonymous FTP in pub/gif (most of
    this data is also in SPACE/GIF on the Ames server). Please restrict
    access to 5pm - 8am Atlantic time.

    pomona.claremont.edu has the Yale Bright Star catalog for anonymous FTP
    in directory [.YALE_BSC]. Contact James Dishaw
    (jdishaw@hmcvax.claremont.edu).

    The Hubble Guide Star catalog is available on CD-ROM for the Mac and PC
    for $49.95 US (catalog # ST101).

	Astronomical Society of the Pacific
	390 Ashton Ave.
	San Francisco, CA 94112
	Phone: (415) 337-2624 9 AM - 3 PM Pacific Time
	FAX: (415) 337-5205

    For German (and possibly other European) readers, Jost Jahn has a
    service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost.
    About 30-40 catalogs are available for DM 6..8/disk. Several floppy disk
    formats are available. Because of the expense of receiving email on his
    system, he asks that you contact him by physical mail:

	Jost Jahn
	Neustaedter Strasse 11
	W-3123 Bodenteich
	GERMANY
	Phone: FRG-5824-3197


    ASTRONOMY PROGRAMS

    Various astronomy-related programs and databases posted to the net in
    the past are archived for anonymous FTP at multiple sites, including
    ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9). Also see the ASTRO-FTP list posted to sci.astro
    monthly, which is more complete than this list.

    Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.unix:

    Volume 8:	    phoon	moon phase and date routines
    Volume 12,13:   starchart	starchart program & Yale Star data
    Volume 15:	    moontool	shows moon phase picture on Suns
    Volume 16:	    sao		reduced SAO catalog

    Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.misc:

    Volume  8:	    moon	another moon phase program
    Volume 11:	    starchart	starchart program, version 3.2
    Volume 11:	    n3emo-orbit orbit: track earth satellites
    Volume 12:	    starchart2	starchart program, update to version 3.2.1
    Volume 13:	    jupmoons	plotter for Jupiter's major moons [in perl]
    Volume 13:	    lunisolar	lunisolar (not sure what this does)
    Volume 14:	    ephem-4.21	astronomical ephemeris, v4.21
    Volume 14:	    n3emo-orbit patch to orbit 3.7
    Volume 18:	    planet	planet generation simulator

    Elwood Downey (e_downey@tasha.cca.cr.rockwell.com), the author of
    "ephem", has offered to mail copies to people who can't find it on one
    of the archives.

    XSAT, an X Window System based satellite tracking program, is
    available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in
    contrib/xsat1.0.tar.Z. Contact Dave Curry (davy@ecn.purdue.edu)
    for more information.

    Xsky, a computerized sky atlas for the X Window System, is available for
    anonymous FTP on arizona.edu in the directory [.SOFTWARE.UNIX.XSKY] as
    xsky.tarz. Contact Terry R. Friedrichsen (terry@venus.sunquest.com) for
    more information.

    The "Variable Stars Analysis Software Archive" is available via
    anonymous FTP from kauri.vuw.ac.nz (130.195.11.3) in directory
    pub/astrophys. This is intended for specialists in this field, and they
    would appreciate people from outside New Zealand confining their FTP
    access to the astrophys directory, as they pay a significant amount for
    Internet access. Contents are relatively sparse at present due to the
    youth of the archive - contributions are encouraged. Contact the archive
    administrator, Timothy Banks (bankst@kauri.vuw.ac.nz) for more
    information.

    The "IDL Astronomy Users Library" is available by anonymous FTP from
    idlastro.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.57.82). This is a central repository for
    general purpose astronomy procedures written in IDL, a commercial image
    processing, plotting, and programming language. Contact Wayne Landsman
    (landsman@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov) for more information.


    ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS

    The most recent orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are
    carried on the Celestial BBS, (513)-427-0674. Documentation and tracking
    software are also available on this system. The Celestial BBS may be
    accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1
    stop bit, no parity.

    Orbital element sets are available via anonymous FTP from the
    following sites:

    archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66)	    NASA,TVRO,Shuttle
    directory: /pub/space

    ftp.funet.fi (128.214.6.100)	    NASA,TVRO,Molczan,CelBBS,
    directory: /pub/astro/pc/satel	    Shuttle (*)

    kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.1.165)     NASA,Molczan
    directory: /pub/space/


    SPACE DIGEST ARCHIVES

    Copies of back issues of Space Digest are archived on
    LISTSERV@UGA.BITNET. Send mail containing the message "INDEX SPACE" to
    get an index of files; send it the message "GET filename filetype" to
    get a particular file.


LANDSAT AND NASA PHOTOS

    You can get black-and-white 1:1M prints, negatives, or positives for
    $10, $18, $12 respectively for any Landsat data more than 2 years old
    from EDC, (Eros (Earth Resources Orbiting Satellite) Data Center). Call
    them at (605)-594-6511. You get 80 meter resolution from the MSS
    scanner, 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size. I think you
    have to select one band from (green, red, near IR, second near IR), but
    I'm not sure. Digitial data is also available at higher prices.

    Transparencies of all NASA photos available to the public can be
    borrowed from the NASA photo archive; you can have copies or prints
    made.

	 NASA Audio-Visual Facility
	 918 North Rengstorff Ave
	 Mountain View, CA  94043
	 (415)-604-6270


PLANETARY MAPS

    The USGS address for maps of the planets is:

    U.S. Geological Survey,
    Distribution Branch,
    Box 25286, Federal Center, Bldg. 41
    Denver, CO 80225

    Maps cost $2.40 to $3.10 per sheet (a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets).

    The best global maps of Mars based on Viking images are 1:15,000,000
    scale in 3 sheets. These maps are:

    I-1535 (2 sheets only) - relief, albedo, names
    I-1535
    I-1618 (3 sheets) - relief, names
    I-2030 (3 sheets) - relief, topographic contours
    I-1802-A,B,C (3 sheets) - geology

    There are many other maps as well: 30 sheets at 1:5,000,000 scale in
    relief, albedo, geology, photomosaic forms (not all 30 sheets available
    in all formats); 140 sheets at 1:2,000,000 scale as photomosaics of the
    whole planet, about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1:500,000 scale
    in photomosaic format, and lots of special sheets.

    Then there are maps of Mercury, Venus, the Moon, the four Galilean
    Satellites, six moons of Saturn and five of Uranus. [Phil Stooke
    (stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca), the author of this item, has offered to
    respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar
    and planetary maps.]


COMETARY ORBIT DATA

    The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and the Minor Planet
    Center announce the sixth edition of the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits in
    IAU Circular 4935. The catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent
    all known comets through November 1989 and is 96 pages long.
    Non-subscribers to the Circulars may purchase the catalogue for $15.00
    while the cost to subscribers is $7.50. The basic catalogue in ASCII
    along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate
    ephemerides is available on MS-DOS 5.25-inch 2S2D diskette at a cost of
    $75.00 (the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor). The catalogue
    alone is also available by e-mail for $37.50 or on magnetic tape for
    $300.00.

    Except for the printed version of the catalogue, the various magnetic
    media or e-mail forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion
    non-subscribers. It is possible that these forms of the catalogue may
    not be available to non-subscribers or that their prices may be more
    expensive than those given. Mail requests for specific information and
    orders to:

	Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
	Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
	Cambridge, MA 02138, USA


NEXT: FAQ #4/15 - Performing calculations and interpreting data formats

after prepro  Subject Space FAQ 0315  Data Sources
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195535 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 463

Archivename spacedata
Lastmodified Date 930401 143907 

ONLINE AND OTHER SOURCES OF IMAGES DATA ETC


INTRODUCTION

    A wide variety of images data catalogs information releases and
    other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net
    A few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access while the
    remainder support some form of file transfer Many sites are listed as
    providing anonymous FTP This refers to the File Transfer Protocol on
    the Internet Sites not connected to the Internet cannot use FTP
    directly but there are a few automated FTP servers which operates via
    email Send mail containing only the word HELP to ftpmaildecwrldeccom
    or bitftppuccprincetonedu and the servers will send you instructions
    on how to make requests

    The sources with the broadest selection of material are the NASA Ames
    SPACE archive and the National Space Science Data Center

    Dont even ask for images to be posted to the net The data volume is
    huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it


VIEWING IMAGES

    The possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly
    large and I wont attempt to cover common formats GIF etc here To
    read PDS and VICAR and many other formats on Unix systems running X
    use XV 211 available by anonymous FTP from exportlcsmitedu
    1824012 in contribxv211tarZ and the other standard X11 FTP
    sites

    The FAQ for the Usenet group altbinariespictures discusses image
    formats and how to get image viewing software A copy of this document
    is available by anonymous FTP from the Usenet FAQ archives at
    pitmanagermitedu 1872158 in directory
    pubusenetaltbinariespictures


ONLINE ARCHIVES

    NASA AMES

    Extensive archives are maintained at NASA Ames and are available via
    anonymous FTP or an email server These archives include many images and
    a wide variety of documents including this FAQ list NASA press
    releases shuttle launch advisories and mission status reports Please
    note that these are NOT maintained on an official basis

    FTP users should connect to amesarcnasagov 128102183 and look in
    pubSPACE pubSPACEIndex contains a listing of files available in the
    archive the index is about 200K by itself

    To access the archives by email send a letter to
    archiveserveramesarcnasagov or amesarchiveserver In the
    subject of your letter or in the body use commands like

	send SPACE Index
	send SPACE SHUTTLEss012391

    The capitalization of the subdirectory names is important All are in
    caps Only text files are handled by the email server at present use
    one of the FTP email servers described in the introduction to this
    section for images or programs

    The Magellan Venus and Voyager Jupiter Saturn and Uranus CDROM image
    disks have been put online in the CDROM and CDROM2 directories The
    disks will be rotated on a weekly basis Thousands of images are
    available in these collections

    The GIF directory contains images in GIF format The VICAR directory
    contains Magellan images in VICAR format these are also available in
    the GIF directory A PC program capable of displaying these files is
    found in the IMDISP directory see the item VIEWING IMAGES below

    The NASA media guide describes the various NASA centers and how to
    contact their public affairs officers this may be useful when pursuing
    specific information Its in MISCmediaguide

    Any problems with the archive server should be reported to Peter Yee
    yeeamesarcnasagov


    NASA ASTROPHYSICS DATA SYSTEM

    The ADS is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and
    provides uniform access to groundbased and spacebased astronomy data
    from NASA data centers across the country It currently has over 140
    data catalogs of radio infrared optical UV and Xray data which can
    be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog The ADS
    also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results In addition
    ADS has a Beta version of an Abstracts Service which allows users to
    query over 125000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors
    keywords title words or abstract text words

    ADS use requires direct Internet access For more info and to sign up to
    become a user email adscuadscoloraduedu The Users Guide and
    QuickStart Guide are available by anonymous FTP to saoftpharvardedu
    in directory pubadsADS_User_Guide PostScript files

    Contact Carolyn Stern Grant sterncfaharvardedu


    NASA JET PROPULSION LAB MISSION INFORMATION AND IMAGES

    pubinfojplnasagov 12814962 is an anonymous FTP site operated by
    the JPL Public Information Office containing news releases status
    reports fact sheets images and other data on JPL missions It may
    also be reached by modem at 8183541333 no parity 8 data bits 1
    stop bit

    Contact newsdeskjplpostjplnasagov or phone 8183547170


    NASA LANGLEY TECHNICAL REPORTS

    techreportslarcnasagov is an anonymous FTP site offering technical
    reports To get started cd to directory pubtechreportslarc92 and
    retrieve files README and abstracts92 Most files are compressed
    PostScript The reports are also in a WAIS database with the following
    description

	source
	 version 3
	 ipname techreportslarcnasagov
	 tcpport 210
	 databasename nasalarcabs
	 cost 000
	 costunit free
	 maintainer MLNelsonLaRCNASAGOV
	 description NASA Langley Research Center Technical Reports

    Contact tradmintechreportslarcnasagov


    NASA SPACELINK

    SpaceLink is an online service located at Marshall Space Flight Center
    in Huntsville Alabama The system is specifically designed for
    teachers The data base is arranged to provide easy access to current
    and historical information on NASA aeronautics space research and
    technology transfer information Also included are suggested classroom
    activities that incorporate information on NASA projects to teach a
    number of scientific principles Unlike bulletin board systems NASA
    Spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers However it
    does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments
    for NASA which may be answered by regular mail Messages are answered
    electronically even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by
    mail Messages are generally handled the next working day except during
    missions when turnaround times increase The mail system is closedloop
    between the user and NASA

    SpaceLink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs
    useful for science educators as well as space graphics and GIF images
    from NASAs planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope

    You can dial in at 2058950028 300120024009600V32 baud 8
    bits no parity 1 stop bit or telnet to spacelinkmsfcnasagov
    12815813250 also known as xslmsfcnasagov if youre on the
    Internet Anonymous FTP capability password guest is now available

    Most of this information is also available from the Ames server in
    directory SPACELINK


    NATIONAL SPACE SCIENCE DATA CENTER NSSDC

    The National Space Science Data Center is the official clearinghouse for
    NASA data The data catalog not the data itself is available online
    Internet users can telnet to nssdcagsfcnasagov 1281833623 and
    log in as NODIS no password You can also get the catalog by sending
    email to requestnssdcgsfcnasagov

    You can also dial in at 3012869000 300 1200 or 2400 baud 8 bits
    no parity one stop At the Enter Number prompt enter MD and
    carriage return When the system responds Call Complete enter a few
    more carriage returns to get the Username and log in as NODIS no
    password

    The system is menudriven topics available as of 393 are

	1   	Master Directory  NASA  Global Change
	2   	Personnel Information Management System
	3   	Nimbus7 GRID TOMS Data
	4   	Interplanetary Medium Data OMNI
	5   	Request data andor information from NSSDC
	6   	Geophysical Models
	7   	CANOPUS Newsletter
	8   	International Ultraviolet Explorer Data Request
	9   	CZCS Browse and Order Utility
	10  	Astronomical Data Center ADC
	11  	STEP Bulletin Board Service
	12  	Standards and Technology Information System
	13  	Planetary Science  Magellan Project Information
	14  	Other Online Data Services at NSSDC
	15  	CDROMS Available at NSSDC

    For users with Internet access datasets are made available via
    anonymous FTP once you select the desired datasets from the online
    catalog For other users data may be ordered on CDROM and in other
    formats Among the many types of data available are Voyager Magellan
    and other planetary images Earth observation data and star catalogs
    Viewers for Macintosh and IBM systems are also available As an example
    of the cost an 8 CD set of Voyager images is 75 Data may ordered
    online by email or by physical mail The postal address is

	National Space Science Data Center
	Request Coordination Office
	Goddard Space Flight Center
	Code 633
	Greenbelt MD  20771

	Telephone 301 2866695

	Email address	 requestnssdcagsfcnasagov


    SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE

    stsciedu 13016712 has a large amount of information about the
    Hubble Space Telescope available by anonymous FTP such as status
    reports and newsletters in addition to material oriented towards HST
    observers and proposers Get the top level README file to begin with
    Contact Pete Reppert reppertstsciedu or Chris ODea
    odeastsciedu


    STARCAT

    The Space Telescope European Coordination Facility at ESOGarching
    provides online access to a huge astronomical database featuring

	 Observation log files of several satellitestelescopes
	    IUEIRASHSTNTT
	 Spectra and images IUE HST
	 Most of the astronomical catalogues SAO HR NGC PPM IRAS
	    Veron GSC and many others more than 50 in a very convenient
	    way give centerradiuskind of objects and you get the
	    corresponding files

    Log on as ``starcat no password on node stesishqesoorg
    1341718100 or on STESIS DECnet The files created can be
    retreived by FTP Contact Benoit Pirenne bpirenneesoorg phone 49
    89 320 06 433 at STECF


    ASTRONOMICAL DATABASES

    The full SAO stellar database is NOT available online probably due to
    the 40 MB size It may be ordered on magnetic tape from the NSSDC A
    subset containing position and magnitude only is available by FTP see
    Astronomy Programs below

    nicfunetfi 1282146100 has a large collection of astronomical
    programs for many types of computers databases of stars and deep sky
    objects and general astronomy information in directory pubastro This
    site is mainly for European users but overseas connections are
    possible

    The Ames archives contain a database of 8436 galaxies including name
    RA declination magnitude and radial velocity in MISCgalaxydat
    Supplied by Wayne Hayes waynecsriutorontoca

    iris1ucisdalca 12917318107 has a number of GIFs from Voyager
    Hubble and other sources available by anonymous FTP in pubgif most of
    this data is also in SPACEGIF on the Ames server Please restrict
    access to 5pm  8am Atlantic time

    pomonaclaremontedu has the Yale Bright Star catalog for anonymous FTP
    in directory [YALE_BSC] Contact James Dishaw
    jdishawhmcvaxclaremontedu

    The Hubble Guide Star catalog is available on CDROM for the Mac and PC
    for 4995 US catalog  ST101

	Astronomical Society of the Pacific
	390 Ashton Ave
	San Francisco CA 94112
	Phone 415 3372624 9 AM  3 PM Pacific Time
	FAX 415 3375205

    For German and possibly other European readers Jost Jahn has a
    service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost
    About 3040 catalogs are available for DM 68disk Several floppy disk
    formats are available Because of the expense of receiving email on his
    system he asks that you contact him by physical mail

	Jost Jahn
	Neustaedter Strasse 11
	W3123 Bodenteich
	GERMANY
	Phone FRG58243197


    ASTRONOMY PROGRAMS

    Various astronomyrelated programs and databases posted to the net in
    the past are archived for anonymous FTP at multiple sites including
    ftpuunet 1373919 Also see the ASTROFTP list posted to sciastro
    monthly which is more complete than this list

    AstonomicalSpacerelated sources of interest in compsourcesunix

    Volume 8	    phoon	moon phase and date routines
    Volume 1213   starchart	starchart program  Yale Star data
    Volume 15	    moontool	shows moon phase picture on Suns
    Volume 16	    sao		reduced SAO catalog

    AstonomicalSpacerelated sources of interest in compsourcesmisc

    Volume  8	    moon	another moon phase program
    Volume 11	    starchart	starchart program version 32
    Volume 11	    n3emoorbit orbit track earth satellites
    Volume 12	    starchart2	starchart program update to version 321
    Volume 13	    jupmoons	plotter for Jupiters major moons [in perl]
    Volume 13	    lunisolar	lunisolar not sure what this does
    Volume 14	    ephem421	astronomical ephemeris v421
    Volume 14	    n3emoorbit patch to orbit 37
    Volume 18	    planet	planet generation simulator

    Elwood Downey e_downeytashaccacrrockwellcom the author of
    ephem has offered to mail copies to people who cant find it on one
    of the archives

    XSAT an X Window System based satellite tracking program is
    available by anonymous FTP from exportlcsmitedu 1824012 in
    contribxsat10tarZ Contact Dave Curry davyecnpurdueedu
    for more information

    Xsky a computerized sky atlas for the X Window System is available for
    anonymous FTP on arizonaedu in the directory [SOFTWAREUNIXXSKY] as
    xskytarz Contact Terry R Friedrichsen terryvenussunquestcom for
    more information

    The Variable Stars Analysis Software Archive is available via
    anonymous FTP from kaurivuwacnz 130195113 in directory
    pubastrophys This is intended for specialists in this field and they
    would appreciate people from outside New Zealand confining their FTP
    access to the astrophys directory as they pay a significant amount for
    Internet access Contents are relatively sparse at present due to the
    youth of the archive  contributions are encouraged Contact the archive
    administrator Timothy Banks bankstkaurivuwacnz for more
    information

    The IDL Astronomy Users Library is available by anonymous FTP from
    idlastrogsfcnasagov 1281835782 This is a central repository for
    general purpose astronomy procedures written in IDL a commercial image
    processing plotting and programming language Contact Wayne Landsman
    landsmanstarsgsfcnasagov for more information


    ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS

    The most recent orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are
    carried on the Celestial BBS 5134270674 Documentation and tracking
    software are also available on this system The Celestial BBS may be
    accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 or 2400 baud using 8 data bits 1
    stop bit no parity

    Orbital element sets are available via anonymous FTP from the
    following sites

    archiveafitafmil 12992166	    NASATVROShuttle
    directory pubspace

    ftpfunetfi 1282146100	    NASATVROMolczanCelBBS
    directory pubastropcsatel	    Shuttle 

    kilroyjplnasagov 1281491165     NASAMolczan
    directory pubspace


    SPACE DIGEST ARCHIVES

    Copies of back issues of Space Digest are archived on
    LISTSERVUGABITNET Send mail containing the message INDEX SPACE to
    get an index of files send it the message GET filename filetype to
    get a particular file


LANDSAT AND NASA PHOTOS

    You can get blackandwhite 11M prints negatives or positives for
    10 18 12 respectively for any Landsat data more than 2 years old
    from EDC Eros Earth Resources Orbiting Satellite Data Center Call
    them at 6055946511 You get 80 meter resolution from the MSS
    scanner 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size I think you
    have to select one band from green red near IR second near IR but
    Im not sure Digitial data is also available at higher prices

    Transparencies of all NASA photos available to the public can be
    borrowed from the NASA photo archive you can have copies or prints
    made

	 NASA AudioVisual Facility
	 918 North Rengstorff Ave
	 Mountain View CA  94043
	 4156046270


PLANETARY MAPS

    The USGS address for maps of the planets is

    US Geological Survey
    Distribution Branch
    Box 25286 Federal Center Bldg 41
    Denver CO 80225

    Maps cost 240 to 310 per sheet a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets

    The best global maps of Mars based on Viking images are 115000000
    scale in 3 sheets These maps are

    I1535 2 sheets only  relief albedo names
    I1535
    I1618 3 sheets  relief names
    I2030 3 sheets  relief topographic contours
    I1802ABC 3 sheets  geology

    There are many other maps as well 30 sheets at 15000000 scale in
    relief albedo geology photomosaic forms not all 30 sheets available
    in all formats 140 sheets at 12000000 scale as photomosaics of the
    whole planet about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1500000 scale
    in photomosaic format and lots of special sheets

    Then there are maps of Mercury Venus the Moon the four Galilean
    Satellites six moons of Saturn and five of Uranus [Phil Stooke
    stookevaxrsscluwoca the author of this item has offered to
    respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar
    and planetary maps]


COMETARY ORBIT DATA

    The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and the Minor Planet
    Center announce the sixth edition of the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits in
    IAU Circular 4935 The catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent
    all known comets through November 1989 and is 96 pages long
    Nonsubscribers to the Circulars may purchase the catalogue for 1500
    while the cost to subscribers is 750 The basic catalogue in ASCII
    along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate
    ephemerides is available on MSDOS 525inch 2S2D diskette at a cost of
    7500 the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor The catalogue
    alone is also available by email for 3750 or on magnetic tape for
    30000

    Except for the printed version of the catalogue the various magnetic
    media or email forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion
    nonsubscribers It is possible that these forms of the catalogue may
    not be available to nonsubscribers or that their prices may be more
    expensive than those given Mail requests for specific information and
    orders to

	Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
	Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
	Cambridge MA 02138 USA


NEXT FAQ 415  Performing calculations and interpreting data formats

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Feminism and Islam, again
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 30

In article <1993Apr14.030334.8650@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> In article <1993Apr11.145519.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>>
>>There's a way around that via the hadith, which state that silence is
>>taken to mean "yes" and that women may not speak before a judge, who
>>must conduct the marriage.
> 
> Actaully, that's a false hadith, because it contradicts verses in the
> Quran, that says women may testify- speak before a judge.
> 
> Hadiths are declared false when they contradict the Quran.  Hadiths
> weren't written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet,
> and so may contain errors.

So the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is
if it contradicts the Quran?  What if it relates to something
that isn't explicitly spelled out in the Quran?

Also, the Quran wasn't written down during the life of Muhammed
either.  It wasn't long after, but 20 years or so is still long
enough to shift a few verses around.

Karl
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope      | "All you touch and all you see  |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition -       | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall."  --Duke |                 --Pink Floyd    |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|         A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it.         |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  Subject Re Feminism and Islam again
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 30

In article 1993Apr140303348650ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
 In article 1993Apr111455191eaglewesleyanedu kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu writes

Theres a way around that via the hadith which state that silence is
taken to mean yes and that women may not speak before a judge who
must conduct the marriage
 
 Actaully thats a false hadith because it contradicts verses in the
 Quran that says women may testify speak before a judge
 
 Hadiths are declared false when they contradict the Quran  Hadiths
 werent written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet
 and so may contain errors

So the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is
if it contradicts the Quran  What if it relates to something
that isnt explicitly spelled out in the Quran

Also the Quran wasnt written down during the life of Muhammed
either  It wasnt long after but 20 years or so is still long
enough to shift a few verses around

Karl
 
 Lastly I come to China in the hope       All you touch and all you see  
 of fulfilling a lifelong ambition         Is all your life will ever be 
 dropping acid on the Great Wall  Duke                  Pink Floyd    

         A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it         
 

preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Lines: 25
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


In article <C50z77.EE6@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jelson@rcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (John Elson) writes:
>Has anyone ever heard of a food product called "Space Food Sticks?" This
>was apparently created/marketed around the time of the lunar expeditions, along
>with "Tang" and other dehydrated foods. I have spoken with several people
>who have eaten these before, and they described them as a dehydrated candy. 
>Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

A freeze dried Tootsie Roll (tm).  The actual taste sensation was like nothing
you will ever willingly experience.  The amazing thing was that we ate a second
one, and a third and ....

I doubt that they actually flew on missions, as I'm certain they did "bad
things" to the gastrointestinal tract.  Compared to Space Food Sticks, Tang was
a gastronomic contribution to mankind.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |God gave us weather so we wouldn't complain
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |about other things.
PADI DM-54909                     |

PS. I don't think Tang flew, either.  Although it was developed under contract.


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
Lines 25
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


In article  jelsonrcnextcsouiucedu John Elson writes
Has anyone ever heard of a food product called Space Food Sticks This
was apparently createdmarketed around the time of the lunar expeditions along
with Tang and other dehydrated foods I have spoken with several people
who have eaten these before and they described them as a dehydrated candy 
Any information would be greatly appreciated 

A freeze dried Tootsie Roll tm  The actual taste sensation was like nothing
you will ever willingly experience  The amazing thing was that we ate a second
one and a third and 

I doubt that they actually flew on missions as Im certain they did bad
things to the gastrointestinal tract  Compared to Space Food Sticks Tang was
a gastronomic contribution to mankind

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     God gave us weather so we wouldnt complain
pyronskndivdsegticom          about other things
PADI DM54909                     

PS I dont think Tang flew either  Although it was developed under contract


preprocess doc  From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1993Apr6.041343.24997
Organization: Summit NJ
Lines: 39

student writes:

>Somewhere, roger colin shouse writes about "radical gay dogma."  Somewhere else
>he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesn't know.
>There are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth-
>reich-sophistique shit in his postings.  Maybe more.  In fact I'm not sure
>the instances could be counted, because they reproduce like a virus the more
>you consider his words.
>	My question is this: what is the best response to weasels like
>shouse and Stan Krieger?  Possibilities:
>	(a) study them dispassionately and figure out how they work, then
>(1) remember what you've learned so as to combat them when they or their clones
>get into office
>(2) contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward
>	(b) learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder

This posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting.

The point has been raised and has been answered.  Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").

There is really nothing else to discuss.  Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
control their race but they can control their behavior).

What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?
Nobody, including BSA, is denying anybody the right to live and/or
worship as they please or don't please,  but it doesn't mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com

after prepro  From stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID cbnewsl1993Apr604134324997
Organization Summit NJ
Lines 39

student writes

Somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma  Somewhere else
he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesnt know
There are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth
reichsophistique shit in his postings  Maybe more  In fact Im not sure
the instances could be counted because they reproduce like a virus the more
you consider his words
	My question is this what is the best response to weasels like
shouse and Stan Krieger  Possibilities
	a study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then
1 remember what youve learned so as to combat them when they or their clones
get into office
2 contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward
	b learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder

This posting is totally uncalled for in recscouting

The point has been raised and has been answered  Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight

There is really nothing else to discuss  Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because its like comparing apples to oranges ie people cant
control their race but they can control their behavior

What else is there to possibly discuss on recscouting on this issue
Nobody including BSA is denying anybody the right to live andor
worship as they please or dont please  but it doesnt mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized positive religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based
 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions advice or suggestions even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment are my own
Summit NJ
smkuslcom

preprocess doc  From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23

jbreed@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed) writes:

>In article <C5ros0.uy@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
>|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
>|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.

It's my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the
growing distance of Pluto and Charon from the Sun, due to it's
elliptical orbit. It is not due to shadowing effects. 

>Where does the shadow come from?  There's nothing close enough to block
>sunlight from hitting them.  I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
>our view of them either.  What am I missing?

Pluto can shadow Charon, and vice-versa.

George Krumins
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  George Krumins                                                              |
|  gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu                                                   |
|  Pufferfish Observatory                                                      |

after prepro  From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23

jbreeddoinkb23bingrcom James B Reed writes

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 [Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
 shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible

Its my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the
growing distance of Pluto and Charon from the Sun due to its
elliptical orbit It is not due to shadowing effects 

Where does the shadow come from  Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them  I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either  What am I missing

Pluto can shadow Charon and viceversa

George Krumins
 

  George Krumins                                                              
  gfk39017uxacsouiucedu                                                   
  Pufferfish Observatory                                                      

preprocess doc  From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 29


Robert Knowles writes:

>>
>>My my, there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands.  :)
>>
>>OK, first I apologize.  I didn't bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
>>imprecise flame.  That was inexcusable.
>>

>How about the nickname Bake "Flamethrower" Timmons?

Sure, but Robert "Koresh-Fetesh" (sic) Knowles seems good, too.  :) 
>
>You weren't at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you?
>
>Remember, Koresh "dried" for your sins.
>
>And pass that beef jerky.  Umm Umm.

Though I wasn't there, at least I can rely on you now to keep me posted on what
what he's doing.

Have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and David Koresh? 
--
Bake Timmons, III

-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)

after prepro  From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 29


Robert Knowles writes


My my there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands  

OK first I apologize  I didnt bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
imprecise flame  That was inexcusable


How about the nickname Bake Flamethrower Timmons

Sure but Robert KoreshFetesh sic Knowles seems good too   

You werent at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you

Remember Koresh dried for your sins

And pass that beef jerky  Umm Umm

Though I wasnt there at least I can rely on you now to keep me posted on what
what hes doing

Have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and David Koresh 

Bake Timmons III

 theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory  Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 23

In article <1993Apr15.131954.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

>Reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers...
>Sorry, Mark.

I think I can. Largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group
writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened:

1. NASA reprogrammed funds to keep NASP alive in 1991.
2. Efforts to kill DC-X and the SSRT progam where twice twarted
   (Feb. and June of last year).
3. Gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him.

This may not be what Mark was thinking of but it shows that the
readers of sci.space DO have power and influence.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 23

In article 1993Apr151319541fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes

Reid alas gives us no measure of the powerinfluence of readers
Sorry Mark

I think I can Largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group
writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened

1 NASA reprogrammed funds to keep NASP alive in 1991
2 Efforts to kill DCX and the SSRT progam where twice twarted
   Feb and June of last year
3 Gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him

This may not be what Mark was thinking of but it shows that the
readers of scispace DO have power and influence

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: army in space
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 23

ktj@beach.cis.ufl.edu (kerry todd johnson) writes:

> Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
> with space?  After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army,
> and I would like to spend it in a space-related field.  I saw a post a long
> time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
> its Army counter-part.  Any more info on that would be appreciated.  I'm 
> looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other?  To
> whom do I voice my interest in space?  What qualifications are necessary?
> Etc, etc.  BTW, my major is computer science engineering.

Kerry-- I'm guessing a little at this, because it's been a few years 
since I saw the info, but you will probably want to look at Air Defense 
Artillery as a specialty, or possibly Signals.  The kind of thing you're 
looking for is SDI-type assignments, but it'll be pretty prosaic stuff.
Things like hard-kill ATBM missiles, some of the COBRA rigs -- that kind 
of thing.  

Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael  - dante@shakala.com 
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289

after prepro  From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re army in space
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 23

ktjbeachcisufledu kerry todd johnson writes

 Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
 with space  After I graduate I will have a commitment to serve in the Army
 and I would like to spend it in a spacerelated field  I saw a post a long
 time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
 its Army counterpart  Any more info on that would be appreciated  Im 
 looking for things like do I branch Intelligence or Signal or other  To
 whom do I voice my interest in space  What qualifications are necessary
 Etc etc  BTW my major is computer science engineering

Kerry Im guessing a little at this because its been a few years 
since I saw the info but you will probably want to look at Air Defense 
Artillery as a specialty or possibly Signals  The kind of thing youre 
looking for is SDItype assignments but itll be pretty prosaic stuff
Things like hardkill ATBM missiles some of the COBRA rigs  that kind 
of thing  

Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look though


Charlie Prael   danteshakalacom 
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Which Gehrels? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1993Apr21.170817.15845@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
> 
>> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
> 
> Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
> me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
> has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
> Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
> Same person?

I would guess not.  Dr. Neil Gehrels of CGRO is the son of Dr. Tom
Gehrels of the University of Arizona.  Since he's long had research
interests in asteroids and other solar-system astronomy, Tom is the
one more likely to have discovered  a comet (and thus had his name
attached to it).

Tom Gehrels is a leader in the Spacewatch project, which has recently
increased mankind's discovery rate on near-Earth asteroids (they're
finding a couple every month).  For much more on this interesting guy,
read his autobiography, *On a Glassy Sea*.

"Do you know the asteroids, Mr.Kemp?...    Bill Higgins
Hundreds of thousands of them.  All        
wandering around the Sun in strange        Fermilab
orbits.  Some never named, never
charted.  The orphans of the Solar         higgins@fnal.fnal.gov
System, Mr. Kemp."
                                           higgins@fnal.bitnet
"And you want to become a father."
  --*Moon Zero Two*                        SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Which Gehrels was Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article 1993Apr2117081715845sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
 
   Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
 
 Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
 me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
 has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
 Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
 Same person

I would guess not  Dr Neil Gehrels of CGRO is the son of Dr Tom
Gehrels of the University of Arizona  Since hes long had research
interests in asteroids and other solarsystem astronomy Tom is the
one more likely to have discovered  a comet and thus had his name
attached to it

Tom Gehrels is a leader in the Spacewatch project which has recently
increased mankinds discovery rate on nearEarth asteroids theyre
finding a couple every month  For much more on this interesting guy
read his autobiography On a Glassy Sea

Do you know the asteroids MrKemp    Bill Higgins
Hundreds of thousands of them  All        
wandering around the Sun in strange        Fermilab
orbits  Some never named never
charted  The orphans of the Solar         higginsfnalfnalgov
System Mr Kemp
                                           higginsfnalbitnet
And you want to become a father
  Moon Zero Two                        SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS

preprocess doc  From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
In-Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.uucp's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 09:10:51 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu> <dxb105.734495289@virgo>
	<1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
	<93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
	<1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>
Lines: 35

In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:

   In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:

   >This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought not
   >to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
   >think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
   >
   >Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
   >larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
   >they will simply be able to afford more stuff.

   If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
   economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a
   lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
   but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
   military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than
   just a "we have the money, why not?" approach.

Ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon. It's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000R?) bills
to fuel their moon-dozers. The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged. It's a way of funding
high-tech research, just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country, or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-European
cooperation.

Now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of
money (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as
investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at
the size of that multiplier :->).

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu

after prepro  From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
InReplyTo garyke4zvuucps message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 091051 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
	1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu 
	1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
	93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA
	1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp
Lines 35

In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes

   In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon  writes

   This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought not
   to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
   think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
   
   Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
   larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
   they will simply be able to afford more stuff

   If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
   economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a
   lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
   but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
   military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than
   just a we have the money why not approach

Ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon Its not like theyd be using 1000 1000R bills
to fuel their moondozers The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged Its a way of funding
hightech research just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research under the pretense that its good for panEuropean
cooperation

Now maybe you think that governmentfunded research is a waste of
money in fact Im pretty sure you do but it does count as
investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at
the size of that multiplier 

Nick Haines nickhcmuedu

preprocess doc  From: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: Boom!  Whoosh......
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: oit.gatech.edu

In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:

>I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
>with the Atlanta Olympics. 

Even worse, the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard.  Considering the caliber of people running this city, 
there's no telling what we're going to have leering down at us from orbit.
-- 
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew
Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu

after prepro  From matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca
Subject Re Boom  Whoosh
Organization The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines 13
NNTPPostingHost oitgatechedu

In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes

I hear  that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics 

Even worse the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard  Considering the caliber of people running this city 
theres no telling what were going to have leering down at us from orbit
 
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta Georgia 30332
uucp	  decvaxhplabsncarpurduerutgersgatechprismmatthew
Internet matthewphantomgatechedu

preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Portuguese Launch Complex (was:*Doppelganger*)
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov

> Portugese launch complex were *wonderful

Portuguese launch complex??? Gosh.... Polish are for American in the 
same way as Portuguese are for Brazilians (I am from Brazil). There is 
a joke about the Portuguese Space Agency that wanted to send a 
Portuguese  astronaut to the surface of the Sun (if there is such a thing).
How did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the 
Sun??? Simple... their astronauts travelled during the night...

 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Portuguese Launch Complex wasDoppelganger
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 14
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov

 Portugese launch complex were wonderful

Portuguese launch complex Gosh Polish are for American in the 
same way as Portuguese are for Brazilians I am from Brazil There is 
a joke about the Portuguese Space Agency that wanted to send a 
Portuguese  astronaut to the surface of the Sun if there is such a thing
How did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the 
Sun Simple their astronauts travelled during the night

 COEGALONLARCNASAGOV

COEgalonlarcnasagov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 07/15 - Astronomical Mnemonics
Supersedes: <mnemonics_730956500@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 95
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:57:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/mnemonics
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:14 $

ASTRONOMICAL MNEMONICS (This is the last FAQ section posted to sci.astro)

    Gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sci.astro.

    Spectral classification sequence: O B A F G K M R N S

	Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now, Sweetheart. (a classic)

	O'Dell's Big Astronomical Fiasco Gonna Kill Me Right Now Surely
	Obese Balding Astronomy Found Guilty; Killed Many Reluctant
	    Nonscience Students.
	Octopus Brains, A Favorite Gastronomical Kitchen Menu,
	    Requires No Sauce
	Odd Ball Astronomers Find Generally Kooky Mnemonics
	    Really Nifty Stuff
	Oh Big And Ferocious Gorilla, Kill My Roomate Next Saturday
	Oh Boy, A Flash! Godzilla Kills Mothra! Really Not Surprising!
	Oh Boy, An F Grade Kills Me
	On Bad Afternoons Fermented Grapes Keep Mrs. Richard Nixon Smiling
	On, Backward Astronomer, Forget Geocentricity; Kepler's Motions
	    Reveal Nature's Simplicity
	Our Bad Astronomy Faculty Gets Killed Monday
	Oven Baked Ants, Fried Gently, Kept Moist, Retain Natural Succulence
	Overseas Broadcast: A Flash!  Godzilla kills Mothra!
	    (Rodan Named Successor)
	Overweight Boys and Fat Girls Keep Munching
	Only Bored Astronomers Find Gratification Knowing Mnemonics
	Oh Bloody Astronomy!  F Grades Kill Me

    Order of the planets:

	Sun
	Mercury
	Venus
	Earth (Terra)
	Mars
	(Asteroids)
	Jupiter
	Saturn
	Uranus
	Neptune
	Pluto

	My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas
	Mother Very Thoughtfully Made A Jelly Sandwich Under No Protest
	My Very Erotic Mate Joyfully Satisfies Unusual Needs Passionately
	Men Very Easily Make Jugs Serve Useful Nocturnal Purposes
	Man Very Early Made A Jug Serve Useful Noble Purposes
	My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Eager Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Exhausted Mother hAs Just Swept Up a Planetary Nebula
	Most Voters Earn Money Just Showing Up Near Polls
	My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizza-pies
	Many Viscious Elephants Made John, Suzy and Uncle Need Protection
	Solar Mass Very Easily Makes All Jupiter's Satellites Undergo
	    Numerous Perturbations.

	Mein Vater erklaert mir jeden Sonntag unsere niedlichen Planeten
	    (My Father explains to me every Sunday our nine planets)
	Man verachte einen Menschen in seinem Unglueck nie -- Punkt
	    (Never scorn/despise a person in his misfortune/bad luck/misery
		-- period!)

    Colors of the spectrum: Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet
	ROY G. BIV  (pronounce as a man's name)
	Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain
	Read Out Your Good Book In Verse

    Galilean Satellite of Jupiter: Io Europa Ganymede Callisto
	I Expect God Cries
	I Eat Green Cheese
	I Embarrass Good Christians

	Ich erschrecke all guten Christen
	    (I scare all good Christians)

    Saturnian Satellites
	MET DR THIP
	Miriam's Enchiladas Taste Divine Recently. Tell Her I'm Proud.
	(Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion,
	    Iapetus, Phoebe)

    Uranian Satellites:
	MAUTO
	Mispronunciations Afflict Uranus Too Often
	My Angel Uriel Takes Opium
	(Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon)

NOTE: the remaining FAQ sections do not appear in sci.astro, as they cover
    material of relevance only to sci.space.

NEXT: FAQ #8/15 - Contacting NASA, ESA, and other space agencies/companies

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0715  Astronomical Mnemonics
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 95
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195755 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spacemnemonics
Lastmodified Date 930401 143914 

ASTRONOMICAL MNEMONICS This is the last FAQ section posted to sciastro

    Gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sciastro

    Spectral classification sequence O B A F G K M R N S

	Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now Sweetheart a classic

	ODells Big Astronomical Fiasco Gonna Kill Me Right Now Surely
	Obese Balding Astronomy Found Guilty Killed Many Reluctant
	    Nonscience Students
	Octopus Brains A Favorite Gastronomical Kitchen Menu
	    Requires No Sauce
	Odd Ball Astronomers Find Generally Kooky Mnemonics
	    Really Nifty Stuff
	Oh Big And Ferocious Gorilla Kill My Roomate Next Saturday
	Oh Boy A Flash Godzilla Kills Mothra Really Not Surprising
	Oh Boy An F Grade Kills Me
	On Bad Afternoons Fermented Grapes Keep Mrs Richard Nixon Smiling
	On Backward Astronomer Forget Geocentricity Keplers Motions
	    Reveal Natures Simplicity
	Our Bad Astronomy Faculty Gets Killed Monday
	Oven Baked Ants Fried Gently Kept Moist Retain Natural Succulence
	Overseas Broadcast A Flash  Godzilla kills Mothra
	    Rodan Named Successor
	Overweight Boys and Fat Girls Keep Munching
	Only Bored Astronomers Find Gratification Knowing Mnemonics
	Oh Bloody Astronomy  F Grades Kill Me

    Order of the planets

	Sun
	Mercury
	Venus
	Earth Terra
	Mars
	Asteroids
	Jupiter
	Saturn
	Uranus
	Neptune
	Pluto

	My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas
	Mother Very Thoughtfully Made A Jelly Sandwich Under No Protest
	My Very Erotic Mate Joyfully Satisfies Unusual Needs Passionately
	Men Very Easily Make Jugs Serve Useful Nocturnal Purposes
	Man Very Early Made A Jug Serve Useful Noble Purposes
	My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Eager Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
	My Very Exhausted Mother hAs Just Swept Up a Planetary Nebula
	Most Voters Earn Money Just Showing Up Near Polls
	My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzapies
	Many Viscious Elephants Made John Suzy and Uncle Need Protection
	Solar Mass Very Easily Makes All Jupiters Satellites Undergo
	    Numerous Perturbations

	Mein Vater erklaert mir jeden Sonntag unsere niedlichen Planeten
	    My Father explains to me every Sunday our nine planets
	Man verachte einen Menschen in seinem Unglueck nie  Punkt
	    Never scorndespise a person in his misfortunebad luckmisery
		 period

    Colors of the spectrum Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet
	ROY G BIV  pronounce as a mans name
	Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain
	Read Out Your Good Book In Verse

    Galilean Satellite of Jupiter Io Europa Ganymede Callisto
	I Expect God Cries
	I Eat Green Cheese
	I Embarrass Good Christians

	Ich erschrecke all guten Christen
	    I scare all good Christians

    Saturnian Satellites
	MET DR THIP
	Miriams Enchiladas Taste Divine Recently Tell Her Im Proud
	Mimas Enceladus Tethys Dione Rhea Titan Hyperion
	    Iapetus Phoebe

    Uranian Satellites
	MAUTO
	Mispronunciations Afflict Uranus Too Often
	My Angel Uriel Takes Opium
	Miranda Ariel Umbriel Titania Oberon

NOTE the remaining FAQ sections do not appear in sciastro as they cover
    material of relevance only to scispace

NEXT FAQ 815  Contacting NASA ESA and other space agenciescompanies

preprocess doc  From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 51

Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts.  For
example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.  

For that matter, why exactly were the Apollo lunar experiments
"turned off" rather than just "safed".  Was it political (i.e.
as along as they could be used, someone would keep bugging
congress for funds)?  Turning them off keeps them pesky
scientists out of the bureaucrat's hair....  

I've heard the argument that an active but "uncontrolled"
spacecraft causes "radio noise."  I find that hard to believe
that this could be a problem in a properly designed "safe" mode.
This safe mode could be a program routine which causes the
spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation, and once a
(week, month, year, whatever) attempts a signal lock on Earth.
At that time, if funding has been restored, the mission can
continue.  If no signal is recieved, the spacecraft goes back to
the safe mode for another time period. As we would know when the
spacecraft is going to try to contact Earth, we could be
prepared if necessary.  

As another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is
beam stored data towards Earth.  If someone can receive it,
great, if not, so it's lost and no big deal.
By making the time and signal location generally known, perhaps
someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the
data even if they're not willing to contact the spacecraft.

I see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which
could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to
places which are otherwise unaccessible (Jupiter/Saturn Orbit,
exiting the solar system, etc).   

Perhaps those designing future spacecraft (Cassini, Pluto Flyby,
etc) should consider designing in a "pause" mode in case their
spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of
the primary mission. Perhaps Mars Observer and Galilleo could
have some kind of routine written in for the post mission
"drift" phase.

So any holes in all this?


/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	| 
| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the 	|
| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."    		|
|                  <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> 		|

after prepro  From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 51

Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts  For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again  

For that matter why exactly were the Apollo lunar experiments
turned off rather than just safed  Was it political ie
as along as they could be used someone would keep bugging
congress for funds  Turning them off keeps them pesky
scientists out of the bureaucrats hair  

Ive heard the argument that an active but uncontrolled
spacecraft causes radio noise  I find that hard to believe
that this could be a problem in a properly designed safe mode
This safe mode could be a program routine which causes the
spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation and once a
week month year whatever attempts a signal lock on Earth
At that time if funding has been restored the mission can
continue  If no signal is recieved the spacecraft goes back to
the safe mode for another time period As we would know when the
spacecraft is going to try to contact Earth we could be
prepared if necessary  

As another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is
beam stored data towards Earth  If someone can receive it
great if not so its lost and no big deal
By making the time and signal location generally known perhaps
someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the
data even if theyre not willing to contact the spacecraft

I see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which
could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to
places which are otherwise unaccessible JupiterSaturn Orbit
exiting the solar system etc   

Perhaps those designing future spacecraft Cassini Pluto Flyby
etc should consider designing in a pause mode in case their
spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of
the primary mission Perhaps Mars Observer and Galilleo could
have some kind of routine written in for the post mission
drift phase

So any holes in all this


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	 
 the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the 	
 Moon and returning him safely to the Earth    		
                   		

preprocess doc  From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 86
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: judy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr10.145502.28866@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes...
>In article <9APR199318394890@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:
> 
>>>BTW, universities do the same thing. They however, have a wrap of
>>>10% to 15% (again, this is over and above any overhead charge).
> 
>>Wrong Allen. The max overhead charge is ALL of the charge. There is no
>>seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion. 
> 
>A professor at the University of Virginia told me their wrap was about
>15%. The subcontracts I have let out and worked on for other universities
>are about the same. My employer (a non-profit research institute) does
>the same. This is generally reffered to as the fee.
> 

I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
wrap at this university. I also asked around here. Ther is no wrap at 
Marquette, University of Wisconsin Madison, Utah State, Weber State or
Embry Riddle U. I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance
that I have been able to track down it does not. Also the president of our
University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did
not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead
to be a legitimate charge.

>>How do 
>>I know? I write proposals and have won contracts and I know to the dime
>>what the charges are. At UAH for example the overhead is 36.6%.
> 
>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>costing people how much fee they add to a project.
>

I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.

>>If you have some numbers Allen then show them else quit barking. 
> 
>I did Dennis; read the article. To repeat: an internal estimate done by
>the Reston costing department says Freedom can be built for about $1.8B
>a year and operated for $1B per year *IF* all the money where spent on
>Freedom. Since we spend about half a billion $$ more per year it looks
>like roughly 25% of the money is wasted. Now if you think I'm making
>this up, you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few
>weeks ago in Space News.
>

No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA. Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on.
Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead.

>This Dennis, is why NASA has so many problems: you can't accept that
>anything is wrong unless you can blame it on Congress. Oh, sure, you'll
>say NASA has problems but do you believe it? Remember the WP 02
>overrun? You insisted it was all congresses fault when NASA management
>knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act. Do you
>still blame Congress for the overrun?
>

Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being 
selective with the facts again.

>>By your own numbers Allen, at a cost of 500 million per flight the
>>service cost of flying shuttle to SSF is 2 billion for four flights, so how
>>did you get your one billion number?
> 
>I have no idea what your trying to say here Dennis.
> 
>  Allen
>-- 

If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a 
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville.

Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
do so.


after prepro  From wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization University of Houston
Lines 86
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost judyuhedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr1014550228866itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 9APR199318394890judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes
 
BTW universities do the same thing They however have a wrap of
10 to 15 again this is over and above any overhead charge
 
Wrong Allen The max overhead charge is ALL of the charge There is no
seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion 
 
A professor at the University of Virginia told me their wrap was about
15 The subcontracts I have let out and worked on for other universities
are about the same My employer a nonprofit research institute does
the same This is generally reffered to as the fee
 

I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university I also asked around here Ther is no wrap at 
Marquette University of Wisconsin Madison Utah State Weber State or
Embry Riddle U I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance
that I have been able to track down it does not Also the president of our
University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did
not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead
to be a legitimate charge

How do 
I know I write proposals and have won contracts and I know to the dime
what the charges are At UAH for example the overhead is 366
 
Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project


I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead

If you have some numbers Allen then show them else quit barking 
 
I did Dennis read the article To repeat an internal estimate done by
the Reston costing department says Freedom can be built for about 18B
a year and operated for 1B per year IF all the money where spent on
Freedom Since we spend about half a billion  more per year it looks
like roughly 25 of the money is wasted Now if you think Im making
this up you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few
weeks ago in Space News


No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers  where the work is going on
Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead

This Dennis is why NASA has so many problems you cant accept that
anything is wrong unless you can blame it on Congress Oh sure youll
say NASA has problems but do you believe it Remember the WP 02
overrun You insisted it was all congresses fault when NASA management
knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act Do you
still blame Congress for the overrun


Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being 
selective with the facts again

By your own numbers Allen at a cost of 500 million per flight the
service cost of flying shuttle to SSF is 2 billion for four flights so how
did you get your one billion number
 
I have no idea what your trying to say here Dennis
 
  Allen
 

If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a 
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see

Dennis University of Alabama in Huntsville

Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so


preprocess doc  From: gallas2@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Sean Michael Gallagher)
Subject: Funding for NASA
Article-I.D.: rpi.87g54s_
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: marcus.its.rpi.edu

I am doing a political science paper on the funding of NASA and pork-barrel 
politics.  I would be interested in information about funding practices and
histories of some of the major programs (Apollo, STS, SSF, etc) and the
funding of SSTO to contrast.  Could someone please recommend some sources
that would be useful?  Thank you.
-- 
Sean Gallagher
gallas2@rpi.edu

after prepro  From gallas2marcusitsrpiedu Sean Michael Gallagher
Subject Funding for NASA
ArticleID rpi87g54s_
Lines 8
NntpPostingHost marcusitsrpiedu

I am doing a political science paper on the funding of NASA and porkbarrel 
politics  I would be interested in information about funding practices and
histories of some of the major programs Apollo STS SSF etc and the
funding of SSTO to contrast  Could someone please recommend some sources
that would be useful  Thank you
 
Sean Gallagher
gallas2rpiedu

preprocess doc  From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 37
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi

[deletions...]

In <1993Apr13.184227.1191@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

>I really don't think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite.

First of all, infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans
to explain certain things in a certain way. We don't know if it actually
applies to reality, we don't know if anything in the world is infinite.

>It wouldn't be able to
>comprehend what reality is like for the programmer, because that would
>require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and
>based on infinietely small units- no units.

You don't know if the universe is actually continuous. Continuum is another
mathematical concept (based on infinity) used to explain things in a certain
way.

>Because humans do not know what infinite is.  We call it something
>beyond numbers.  We call it endless, but we do not know what it is.

I have a pretty good idea of what infinity is. It's a man-made concept, and
like many man-made concepts, it has evolved through time. Ancient Greeks had
a different understanding of it.

>So, we can call Allah infinitely powerful, knowledgeable, etc.., yet we
>cannot imagine what Allah actually is, because we just cannot imagine
>what it is like to be infinite.

Precicely. We don't even know if infinity applies to reality.

-- 
Sami Aario         |  "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi  |   one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------'  "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space"     DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.

after prepro  From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 37
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi

[deletions]

In 1993Apr131842271191ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

I really dont think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite

First of all infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans
to explain certain things in a certain way We dont know if it actually
applies to reality we dont know if anything in the world is infinite

It wouldnt be able to
comprehend what reality is like for the programmer because that would
require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and
based on infinietely small units no units

You dont know if the universe is actually continuous Continuum is another
mathematical concept based on infinity used to explain things in a certain
way

Because humans do not know what infinite is  We call it something
beyond numbers  We call it endless but we do not know what it is

I have a pretty good idea of what infinity is Its a manmade concept and
like many manmade concepts it has evolved through time Ancient Greeks had
a different understanding of it

So we can call Allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet we
cannot imagine what Allah actually is because we just cannot imagine
what it is like to be infinite

Precicely We dont even know if infinity applies to reality

 
Sami Aario           Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi     one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
  Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space     DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros

preprocess doc  From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 23

: >> The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime,  but the legal
: >> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court
: >> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
: >> it should be.  Hence the question is,  do we instate the death penalty as
: >> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of
: >> it entirely?

  I doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a "deterrent" to crime. If so,
why doesn't every crime carry a death penalty ? That would be effictive
wouldn't it ???

  The death penalty is a punishment, much like a $50 fine for speeding is
a punishment. Anyway, somebody with murder on the mind doesn't much care
about the consequences. I think another problem is that people dont think
they will get caught. If I wanted to kill another person, I wouldn't 
care what the penalty was if I didn't think I would get caught.

  If it was to be strictly a deterrent, it should have been more along 
the lines of torture.

Dave Fuller
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com


after prepro  From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 23

  The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime  but the legal
  shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court
  battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
  it should be  Hence the question is  do we instate the death penalty as
  it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of
  it entirely

  I doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a deterrent to crime If so
why doesnt every crime carry a death penalty  That would be effictive
wouldnt it 

  The death penalty is a punishment much like a 50 fine for speeding is
a punishment Anyway somebody with murder on the mind doesnt much care
about the consequences I think another problem is that people dont think
they will get caught If I wanted to kill another person I wouldnt 
care what the penalty was if I didnt think I would get caught

  If it was to be strictly a deterrent it should have been more along 
the lines of torture

Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom


preprocess doc  From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 5

The Apollo program cost something like $25 billion at a time when
the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now. No one would 
take the offer.
-- 
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131

after prepro  From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 5

The Apollo program cost something like 25 billion at a time when
the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now No one would 
take the offer
 
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131

preprocess doc  From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Gulf War and Peace-niks
Lines: 67

In article <1993Apr20.062328.19776@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, 
dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:

[...]
> 
> Wait a minute.  You said *never* play a Chamberlain.  Since the US
> *is* playing Chamberlain as far as East Timor is concerned, wouldn't
> that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing
> to do with the Gulf War?  Actually, I rather like your idea.  Perhaps
> the rest of the world should have bombed (or maybe missiled) Washington
> when the US invaded Nicaragua, Grenada, Panama, Vietnam, Mexico, Hawaii,
> or any number of other places.

Wait a minute, Doug.  I know you are better informed than that.  The US 
has never invaded Nicaragua (as far as I know).  We liberated Grenada 
from the Cubans	to protect US citizens there and to prevent the completion 
of a strategic air strip.  Panama we invaded, true (twice this century).  
Vietnam?  We were invited in by the government of S. Vietnam.  (I guess 
we "invaded" Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, eh?)  Mexico?  We have 
invaded Mexico 2 or 3 times, once this century, but there were no missiles 
for anyone to shoot over here at that time.  Hawaii?  We liberated it from 
Spain.

So if you mean by the word "invaded" some sort of military action where
we cross someone's border, you are right 5 out of 6.  But normally
"invaded" carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation.
(If some nation "invades" the U.S. Virgin Islands, would they be
invading the Virgin Islands or the U.S.?)  So from this point of
view, your score falls to 2 out of 6 (Mexico, Panama).

[...]
> 
> What's a "peace-nik"?  Is that somebody who *doesn't* masturbate
> over "Guns'n'Ammo" or what?  Is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik?

No, it's someone who believes in "peace-at-all-costs".  In other words,
a person who would have supported giving Hitler not only Austria and
Czechoslakia, but Poland too if it could have averted the War.  And one
who would allow Hitler to wipe all *all* Jews, slavs, and political 
dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone.

"Is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik," you ask?  Well, it depends
on what your values are.  If you value life over liberty, peace over
freedom, then I guess not.  But if liberty and freedom mean more to you
than life itself; if you'd rather die fighting for liberty than live
under a tyrant's heel, then yes, it's "bad" to be a peace-nik.

The problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are
not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable".  I would not have any
argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and
stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with 
the national defense.  But no, they are not willing to allow us to
legitimately hold a different point-of-view.  They militate and 
many times resort to violence all in the name of peace.  (What rank
hypocrisy!)  All to stop we "warmongers" who are willing to stand up 
and defend our freedoms against tyrants, and who realize that to do
so requires a strong national defense.

Time to get off the soapbox now.  :)

[...]
> --
> Doug Graham         dgraham@bnr.ca         My opinions are my own.

Regards,

Jim B.

after prepro  From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Gulf War and Peaceniks
Lines 67

In article 1993Apr2006232819776bmerh85bnrca 
dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes

[]
 
 Wait a minute  You said never play a Chamberlain  Since the US
 is playing Chamberlain as far as East Timor is concerned wouldnt
 that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing
 to do with the Gulf War  Actually I rather like your idea  Perhaps
 the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled Washington
 when the US invaded Nicaragua Grenada Panama Vietnam Mexico Hawaii
 or any number of other places

Wait a minute Doug  I know you are better informed than that  The US 
has never invaded Nicaragua as far as I know  We liberated Grenada 
from the Cubans	to protect US citizens there and to prevent the completion 
of a strategic air strip  Panama we invaded true twice this century  
Vietnam  We were invited in by the government of S Vietnam  I guess 
we invaded Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War eh  Mexico  We have 
invaded Mexico 2 or 3 times once this century but there were no missiles 
for anyone to shoot over here at that time  Hawaii  We liberated it from 
Spain

So if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where
we cross someones border you are right 5 out of 6  But normally
invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation
If some nation invades the US Virgin Islands would they be
invading the Virgin Islands or the US  So from this point of
view your score falls to 2 out of 6 Mexico Panama

[]
 
 Whats a peacenik  Is that somebody who doesnt masturbate
 over GunsnAmmo or what  Is it supposed to be bad to be a peacenik

No its someone who believes in peaceatallcosts  In other words
a person who would have supported giving Hitler not only Austria and
Czechoslakia but Poland too if it could have averted the War  And one
who would allow Hitler to wipe all all Jews slavs and political 
dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone

Is it supposed to be bad to be a peacenik you ask  Well it depends
on what your values are  If you value life over liberty peace over
freedom then I guess not  But if liberty and freedom mean more to you
than life itself if youd rather die fighting for liberty than live
under a tyrants heel then yes its bad to be a peacenik

The problem with most peaceniks it they consider those of us who are
not like them to be bad and unconscionable  I would not have any
argument or problem with a peacenik if they held to their ideals and
stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with 
the national defense  But no they are not willing to allow us to
legitimately hold a different pointofview  They militate and 
many times resort to violence all in the name of peace  What rank
hypocrisy  All to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up 
and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do
so requires a strong national defense

Time to get off the soapbox now  

[]
 
 Doug Graham         dgrahambnrca         My opinions are my own

Regards

Jim B

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 41

In <16BB4C522.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:

>In article <1993Apr17.122329.21438@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
> 
>>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH:  ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE."  (Holy Quran 21:33)
>>
>>>Hmm. This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre,
>>>with the planets orbitting round it. So Copernicus and Gallileo were
>>>wrong after all!
>>
>>You haven't read very carefully -- if you look again, you will see that
>>it doesn't say anything about what is circling what.
> 
>Anyway, they are not moving in circles.  

Oops, sorry, my words, not the words of the Qur'an.

>Nor is there any evidence that
>everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense. Wishy-
>washy statements are not scientific.

Note that "(the celestial bodies)" in the above verse is an
interpolation (which is why it is in brackets) -- it is the translator's 
(incorrect, IMHO) interpretation.

Here is Maurice Bucaille's translation (he studied Arabic for his
research into the Qur'an and science) of this verse:

"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon.
Each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (Qur'an :33)

The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr. Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for
a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
(or anywhere in the Qur'an).

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 41

In 16BB4C522I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes

In article 1993Apr1712232921438monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH  ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE  Holy Quran 2133

Hmm This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre
with the planets orbitting round it So Copernicus and Gallileo were
wrong after all

You havent read very carefully  if you look again you will see that
it doesnt say anything about what is circling what
 
Anyway they are not moving in circles  

Oops sorry my words not the words of the Quran

Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense Wishy
washy statements are not scientific

Note that the celestial bodies in the above verse is an
interpolation which is why it is in brackets  it is the translators 
incorrect IMHO interpretation

Here is Maurice Bucailles translation he studied Arabic for his
research into the Quran and science of this verse

God is the One Who created the night the day the sun and the moon
Each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion Quran 33

The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for
a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
or anywhere in the Quran

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: enzo@research.canon.oz.au's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:36:55 GMT

In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC

>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
>hideous vision of the future.  Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>side of the booster rockets.  Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
>for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie.

Well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well.  They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA.
(Sign of the times: a Sony logo on a Soyuz launcher...)

>Now, Space Marketing
>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>orbit.

This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of.  Does anyone
know if he's involved?

>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.

This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people.  My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large, inflatable space structures.

>..........
>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.

If this is true, I think it's a great idea.

Learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development, and given that Freedom appears to be
shrinking towards the vanishing point, I question whether NASA's space
station is going to provide much, if any, knowledge in this area.
(Especially if a design such as Faget's wingless orbiter is chosen...)
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so
much the better.

>Is NASA really supporting this junk?

And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
idea" stage or does it have real funding?

>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?

Not yet.  Though, if this project goes through, I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable...
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


after prepro  From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 70
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu
Inreplyto enzoresearchcanonozaus message of Tue 20 Apr 1993 223655 GMT

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future  Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets  Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie

Well if youre going to get upset with this you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well  They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA
Sign of the times a Sony logo on a Soyuz launcher

Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit

This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of  Does anyone
know if hes involved

NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs

This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people  My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large inflatable space structures


What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore

If this is true I think its a great idea

Learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development and given that Freedom appears to be
shrinking towards the vanishing point I question whether NASAs space
station is going to provide much if any knowledge in this area
Especially if a design such as Fagets wingless orbiter is chosen
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of partial private sector funding in the process  so
much the better

Is NASA really supporting this junk

And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip  How serious is this project  Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding

Are protesting groups being organized in the States

Not yet  Though if this project goes through I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable

_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:

>>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution.  They
>>picked words whose meanings implied the intent.  We have already looked
>>in the dictionary to define the word.  Isn't this sufficient?
>We only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers 
>consider cruel and unusual punishment?

>Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
>painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.

Well, most hangings are very quick and, I imagine, painless.

>Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those 
>days ], etc. 
>All would be considered cruel under your definition.
>All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.

And, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too.  And, if these
things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution
(painless) would not be, either.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution  They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent  We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word  Isnt this sufficient
We only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers 
consider cruel and unusual punishment

Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very 
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine

Well most hangings are very quick and I imagine painless

Firing squad  [ note not a clean way to die back in those 
days ] etc 
All would be considered cruel under your definition
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers

And hangings and firing squads are allowed today too  And if these
things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution
painless would not be either

keith

preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov

> there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit

Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that  you just can 
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its 
orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because 
the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth 
that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon???

 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 13
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov

 there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit

Is it right That is new stuff for me So it means that  you just can 
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its 
orbit will be unstable If so what is the reason Is that because 
the combined gravitacional atraction of the SunMoon and Earth 
that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon

 COEGALONLARCNASAGOV

COEgalonlarcnasagov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

preprocess doc  From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Moon Colony Prize Race! $6 billion total?
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 49

In article <1993Apr20.020259.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>I think if there is to be a prize and such.. There should be "classes"
>such as the following:
>
>Large Corp.
>Small Corp/Company (based on reported earnings?)
>Large Government (GNP and such)
>Small Governemtn (or political clout or GNP?)
>Large Organization (Planetary Society? and such?)
>Small Organization (Alot of small orgs..)

Whatabout, Schools, Universities, Rich Individuals (around 250 people 
in the UK have more than 10 million dollars each). I reecieved mail
from people who claimed they might get a person into space for $500
per pound. Send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money
among the ground crew!
>
>The organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ??
>
>Of course this means the prize might go up. Larger get more or ??
>Basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class
>winners..
>More fair?
>
>There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events,
>umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want
>to risk thier own lives let them do it?).
>
Agreed. I volunteer for any UK attempts. But one clause: No launch methods
which are clearly dangerous to the environment (ours or someone else's). No
usage of materials from areas of planetary importance.

>Any other ideas??

Yes: We should *do* this rather than talk about it. Lobby people!
The major problem with the space programmes is all talk/paperwork and
no action!

>==
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
>
>


-- 
****************************************************************************  
                  Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"

after prepro  From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Moon Colony Prize Race 6 billion total
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 49

In article 1993Apr200202591auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
I think if there is to be a prize and such There should be classes
such as the following

Large Corp
Small CorpCompany based on reported earnings
Large Government GNP and such
Small Governemtn or political clout or GNP
Large Organization Planetary Society and such
Small Organization Alot of small orgs

Whatabout Schools Universities Rich Individuals around 250 people 
in the UK have more than 10 million dollars each I reecieved mail
from people who claimed they might get a person into space for 500
per pound Send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money
among the ground crew

The organization things would probably have to be nonprofit or liek 

Of course this means the prize might go up Larger get more or 
Basically make the prize total purse 6 billion divided amngst the class
winners
More fair

There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events
umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it

Agreed I volunteer for any UK attempts But one clause No launch methods
which are clearly dangerous to the environment ours or someone elses No
usage of materials from areas of planetary importance

Any other ideas

Yes We should do this rather than talk about it Lobby people
The major problem with the space programmes is all talkpaperwork and
no action


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked




 
  
                  Marvin Batty  djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock

preprocess doc  From: byab314@chpc.utexas.edu (Srinivas Bettadpur)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Center for Space Research, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 15

In article <1993Apr23.140649.1@rhea.arc.ab.ca> thacker@rhea.arc.ab.ca writes:
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au>, enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>
>> What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>> it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
>
>No need to be depressed about this one.  Lights aren't on during the day
>so there shouldn't be any daytime light pollution.

  Thanks for these surreal moments....
                                               Srinivas
-- 
Srinivas Bettadpur        Internet : byab314@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu
P.O. Box 8520, Austin, Tx. 78713-8520, U.S.A.  Tel. (512) 471 4332
BITNET : byab314@uthermes

after prepro  From byab314chpcutexasedu Srinivas Bettadpur
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Center for Space Research University of Texas at Austin
Lines 15

In article 1993Apr231406491rheaarcabca thackerrheaarcabca writes
In article  enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes

 What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
 it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night

No need to be depressed about this one  Lights arent on during the day
so there shouldnt be any daytime light pollution

  Thanks for these surreal moments
                                               Srinivas
 
Srinivas Bettadpur        Internet  byab314hermeschpcutexasedu
PO Box 8520 Austin Tx 787138520 USA  Tel 512 471 4332
BITNET  byab314uthermes

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 226
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

<MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>>Many people would probably think (especially if the fanatics propogandized
>>this) that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious.
>>Many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion, if
>>we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference.
>That's not what the people I've asked think. Perhaps you would be right
>if you said the fundamentalists would think this way; after all, they think
>they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress. However,
>you have not shown where you get this idea that 'many' people would
>'probably' think it's atheism vs. religion, winner take all. As far as I can
>tell, it is your groundless prediction that this will happen.

But you haven't taken into the account of propoganda.  Remember, if you
asked Germans before WWII if the Jews shoudl be slaughtered, they would
probably answer no, but, after the propoganda machine rolled through, at
least some were able to tolerate it.

You see, it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general
frenzy.

>>THe propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues, including
>>abortion and gays...  look at some of the things that have happened.
>Well, so far they have passed one amendment, which is currently under
>intense scrutiny, and they have failed to outlaw abortion, which is their
>prime goal on that issue. Yep, they seem sooo effective. Sure.

Well, they haven't managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity
of the courts.  But, they have managed to create quite a few problems for
people that wanted to have an abortion.  They could create similar problems
for us.  And, it could be worse.  They can try to stop abortions by blocking
clinics, etc., but imagine what they'd have to do to stop atheism.

>>>>Besides, the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people.
>>>Better than your one, that is, your opinion. Also, I have branched
>>>out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now.
>>And, what have they said?  Were you questions unbiased?
>Keith, you would claim that my questions are biased the minute I posted
>them, because the answers agreed with me. Everyone I have asked about
>the possible removal of the motto (the christian portion) has expressed
>regret about its loss, because they like it. However, when it is pointed
>out to them that a new motto will not be in the works, none have expressed
>the desire to rape, murder, pillage, etc., which you have basically claimed.

So, you are able to convince them individually, but could you convince a
whole room of them?  A whole nation?

>As for the atheist portion (I know some around here), they have all
>expressed disgust with the motto. Some noted being harassed by christians
>who used the motto to try to seem justified. And all would see it gone.

Yes, I'd be glad if it were gone to.  I've never supported it.  However,
I think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored, contrasted
with what *could* happen (an what may be likely).

>>Which Christians designed the motto?  Does the motto say anything about
>>Jesus?  Why do you think that it refers *only* to Christians?
>Christians wrote it; christians think that their religion is right, and
>all others are wrong; therefore, why would they 'include' other religions
>in the realm of being correct? I doubt that any other religions were meant
>to be included.

Well, I am not clear on the religious convictions of Francis Scott Key (the
motto can be attributed to him), but it is at least clear that he believed
in a god.  And, surely there are a few Christians that think as you say,
but I don't think that most do.  Do you think that all Christians actively
despise other religions?  Most that I have met haven't and don't do so.

>>>No christian
>>>that I have queried thinks it means anything but them, and only them.
>>Why not ask some people of other faiths?
>Sorry, I would, but christianity is just so awfully popular around here.
>Suppose you could ask a few people?

Well, I have asked a Hindu, Moselem, and a few Jews, and all of them think
that it is applicable to them.  Of course, I can't say that these people
(just some that I know pretty well) are accurate representations of their
faiths.

>>It is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any
>>given issue.  You are assuming that all the views were the same, and nothing
>>leads to this conclusion.
>Without evidence to the contrary, I doubt that there were dissenting
>opinions. You claim there were. Provide some evidence for your assertion.

Well, I'd really like to, and I've tried, but I really don't know where to
get access to _Congressional Records_ from the 1950's.  Can anyone help
out here?

>Comparing christians to Nazis? Interesting.

Only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs.

>>>>No, again, the motto on the money doesn't cost you anything extra.  However,
>>>>if you abolished the motto, we'd all have to pay to have all the dies and
>>>>plates redone.
>>>Like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them.
>>You now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again.

>... Also, I doubt that they use th3
>same plates for more than a year's printing; this would make it easy
>to remove the motto (simply make next year's plates without it). Your
>claim, evidently, is that they will have to pay extra somewhere.
>Provide some evidence for this assertion.

So, are you saying that they redesign the plates each year?

Anyway, your whole argument (conveniently deleted I see) was that the motto
somehow costs us all a lot of money.  This is just not correct.

>>The ones I read didn't mention anything about Jesus.  I think the issue was
>>concerning the distinction between religion and not.
>How could it be between religious and not religious? The motto
>refers to god; it is a religious motto. The question is whether or
>not it is only christian. You say it is more. I doubt this. Provide
>some evidence for this assertion.

That is to say, the religion of this country, and the non-religion of
the USSR.  That was what most of those quotes were about, and some included
all atheists, in general, as well.  I don't think that any of the quotes
(although I seem to have lost them) mentioned anything at all about Jesus.
They advocated religion over non-religion.  A specific religion was not
mentioned.

>>You have missed this point.  I said that the motto didn't say anything
>>about anyone in particular.  That is, the motto doesn't imply anything
>>about *your* particular beliefs.  It doesn't say that everyone trusts
>>in some form of god, only that the nation on the whole does.
>We have been through this before. It's obvious it does not include me;
>this much is beyond doubt. Your claim, again, is that the motto refers
>to more than christians. Based on the facts that christianity says all
>other religions are wrong, and because it seems that the motto was
>written by christians, I doubt your claim.

So, you are saying that all Christians must believe that all other religions
should be outlawed, just because they think they are wrong?  That's silly.
I think the Flat-Earthers are wrong, but I don't advocate their banishment.

>[...]  Based on this idea I doubt that any additional expense would
>even be incurred by removing the motto. Provide some evidence for your
>claim that it would.

I think that any such cost would be insignificant.  I mentioned the slight
cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by
being on our currency.

>Disregarding the digression of the other motto...If it is used for
>harassment, and no other purpose has been found for it, why should
>it not be removed?

Well, mottos in general don't really have purposes...  I don't think it
should be removed because I think the benefit would be outweighed by the
consequences.

>>And do you know what the vote was?  Were there other opinions?  Do you
>>think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother
>>atheists?  Do you think that this is what the majority of congress at
>>the time had in mind?  If you do, then show why.
>Again, it is the opinion of the people who put it there that I am
>concerned with.

Then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress.

>Again, it is not necessary that the complete majority
>shared the purpose of confronting 'godless Communism' with this motto.

Why not?  It is the majority that put it there.

>>The general public probably does not know about the anti-atheist intent
>>of a few people in the 50's either.
>I daresay more people remember the 50's than the time when Key wrote
>the anthem.

But do they remember the debate surrounding the motto?  Do they remember
that some people intended it to be a message against atheists?  Why don't
you include this in your little survey that you were conducting?

[...]
>You claim here that scientists would believe someone's claims. I doubt
>this. Provide evidence for your assertion.

What?  Should I ask some scientists the probability that something Einstein
said about relativity is worthy?  I mean, if Einstein said it, there's a
good chance that it was right (at least at the time).

>As for the courts, the
>method scientists use can be applied. I need not agree with the court
>by default because of a 'good record.'

You need not agree with them all of the time, but you would certainly think
that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point.

>>What?  But you said you didn't agree with the court because they "allowed
>>Congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning."  If
>>you don't realize that something like this is external to the realm of
>>the court's power, then how can I be confident that you know *anything*
>>about the court's powers?  I mean, if you don't know how the court works,
>>how can you participate in a discussion of the court?
>A judge can go to speak before Congress. And still you ignore the
>abortion gag rule, as you make your claims on abortion.

No, I think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a Supreme Court
Justice to testify before Congress during the consideration of a
Constitutional Amendment.

And, in order for the Court to rule on something, a case usually must be
presented.

>>Mushrooms, flowers, trees, buildings, signs, whatever...  the analogy is
>>the same.  Just because something that I might find offensive is present
>>doesn't mean that my rights are being violated.
>We are talking about something put there by people, Keith...not
>a mushroom. No one caused that mushroom to exist, unless you're
>finding things offensive in a mushroom farm.

Yes, some mushrooms can be planted.  And, I don't appreciate mushrooms on
my pizza, either.

>This is not the case
>with the motto. And you're ignoring the harassment which is the
>only known result of the motto, and you're ignoring that somewhere
>along the line people were forced to put the motto there.

Who was forced to put the motto there?  What do you mean?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 226
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu

 writes

Many people would probably think especially if the fanatics propogandized
this that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious
Many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion if
we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference
Thats not what the people Ive asked think Perhaps you would be right
if you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think
they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress However
you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would
probably think its atheism vs religion winner take all As far as I can
tell it is your groundless prediction that this will happen

But you havent taken into the account of propoganda  Remember if you
asked Germans before WWII if the Jews shoudl be slaughtered they would
probably answer no but after the propoganda machine rolled through at
least some were able to tolerate it

You see it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general
frenzy

THe propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues including
abortion and gays  look at some of the things that have happened
Well so far they have passed one amendment which is currently under
intense scrutiny and they have failed to outlaw abortion which is their
prime goal on that issue Yep they seem sooo effective Sure

Well they havent managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity
of the courts  But they have managed to create quite a few problems for
people that wanted to have an abortion  They could create similar problems
for us  And it could be worse  They can try to stop abortions by blocking
clinics etc but imagine what theyd have to do to stop atheism

Besides the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people
Better than your one that is your opinion Also I have branched
out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now
And what have they said  Were you questions unbiased
Keith you would claim that my questions are biased the minute I posted
them because the answers agreed with me Everyone I have asked about
the possible removal of the motto the christian portion has expressed
regret about its loss because they like it However when it is pointed
out to them that a new motto will not be in the works none have expressed
the desire to rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed

So you are able to convince them individually but could you convince a
whole room of them  A whole nation

As for the atheist portion I know some around here they have all
expressed disgust with the motto Some noted being harassed by christians
who used the motto to try to seem justified And all would see it gone

Yes Id be glad if it were gone to  Ive never supported it  However
I think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored contrasted
with what could happen an what may be likely

Which Christians designed the motto  Does the motto say anything about
Jesus  Why do you think that it refers only to Christians
Christians wrote it christians think that their religion is right and
all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions
in the realm of being correct I doubt that any other religions were meant
to be included

Well I am not clear on the religious convictions of Francis Scott Key the
motto can be attributed to him but it is at least clear that he believed
in a god  And surely there are a few Christians that think as you say
but I dont think that most do  Do you think that all Christians actively
despise other religions  Most that I have met havent and dont do so

No christian
that I have queried thinks it means anything but them and only them
Why not ask some people of other faiths
Sorry I would but christianity is just so awfully popular around here
Suppose you could ask a few people

Well I have asked a Hindu Moselem and a few Jews and all of them think
that it is applicable to them  Of course I cant say that these people
just some that I know pretty well are accurate representations of their
faiths

It is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any
given issue  You are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing
leads to this conclusion
Without evidence to the contrary I doubt that there were dissenting
opinions You claim there were Provide some evidence for your assertion

Well Id really like to and Ive tried but I really dont know where to
get access to _Congressional Records_ from the 1950s  Can anyone help
out here

Comparing christians to Nazis Interesting

Only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs

No again the motto on the money doesnt cost you anything extra  However
if you abolished the motto wed all have to pay to have all the dies and
plates redone
Like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them
You now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again

 Also I doubt that they use th3
same plates for more than a years printing this would make it easy
to remove the motto simply make next years plates without it Your
claim evidently is that they will have to pay extra somewhere
Provide some evidence for this assertion

So are you saying that they redesign the plates each year

Anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted I see was that the motto
somehow costs us all a lot of money  This is just not correct

The ones I read didnt mention anything about Jesus  I think the issue was
concerning the distinction between religion and not
How could it be between religious and not religious The motto
refers to god it is a religious motto The question is whether or
not it is only christian You say it is more I doubt this Provide
some evidence for this assertion

That is to say the religion of this country and the nonreligion of
the USSR  That was what most of those quotes were about and some included
all atheists in general as well  I dont think that any of the quotes
although I seem to have lost them mentioned anything at all about Jesus
They advocated religion over nonreligion  A specific religion was not
mentioned

You have missed this point  I said that the motto didnt say anything
about anyone in particular  That is the motto doesnt imply anything
about your particular beliefs  It doesnt say that everyone trusts
in some form of god only that the nation on the whole does
We have been through this before Its obvious it does not include me
this much is beyond doubt Your claim again is that the motto refers
to more than christians Based on the facts that christianity says all
other religions are wrong and because it seems that the motto was
written by christians I doubt your claim

So you are saying that all Christians must believe that all other religions
should be outlawed just because they think they are wrong  Thats silly
I think the FlatEarthers are wrong but I dont advocate their banishment

[]  Based on this idea I doubt that any additional expense would
even be incurred by removing the motto Provide some evidence for your
claim that it would

I think that any such cost would be insignificant  I mentioned the slight
cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by
being on our currency

Disregarding the digression of the other mottoIf it is used for
harassment and no other purpose has been found for it why should
it not be removed

Well mottos in general dont really have purposes  I dont think it
should be removed because I think the benefit would be outweighed by the
consequences

And do you know what the vote was  Were there other opinions  Do you
think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother
atheists  Do you think that this is what the majority of congress at
the time had in mind  If you do then show why
Again it is the opinion of the people who put it there that I am
concerned with

Then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress

Again it is not necessary that the complete majority
shared the purpose of confronting godless Communism with this motto

Why not  It is the majority that put it there

The general public probably does not know about the antiatheist intent
of a few people in the 50s either
I daresay more people remember the 50s than the time when Key wrote
the anthem

But do they remember the debate surrounding the motto  Do they remember
that some people intended it to be a message against atheists  Why dont
you include this in your little survey that you were conducting

[]
You claim here that scientists would believe someones claims I doubt
this Provide evidence for your assertion

What  Should I ask some scientists the probability that something Einstein
said about relativity is worthy  I mean if Einstein said it theres a
good chance that it was right at least at the time

As for the courts the
method scientists use can be applied I need not agree with the court
by default because of a good record

You need not agree with them all of the time but you would certainly think
that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point

What  But you said you didnt agree with the court because they allowed
Congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning  If
you dont realize that something like this is external to the realm of
the courts power then how can I be confident that you know anything
about the courts powers  I mean if you dont know how the court works
how can you participate in a discussion of the court
A judge can go to speak before Congress And still you ignore the
abortion gag rule as you make your claims on abortion

No I think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a Supreme Court
Justice to testify before Congress during the consideration of a
Constitutional Amendment

And in order for the Court to rule on something a case usually must be
presented

Mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever  the analogy is
the same  Just because something that I might find offensive is present
doesnt mean that my rights are being violated
We are talking about something put there by people Keithnot
a mushroom No one caused that mushroom to exist unless youre
finding things offensive in a mushroom farm

Yes some mushrooms can be planted  And I dont appreciate mushrooms on
my pizza either

This is not the case
with the motto And youre ignoring the harassment which is the
only known result of the motto and youre ignoring that somewhere
along the line people were forced to put the motto there

Who was forced to put the motto there  What do you mean

keith

preprocess doc  From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 21

In article <sandvik-150493144638@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>Looking at historical evidence such 'perfect utopian' islamic states
>didn't survive. I agree, people are people, and even if you might
>start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state, it takes 
>some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules --
>again.
>

Nothing is perfect. Nothing is perpetual. i.e. even if it is perfect,
it isn't going to stay that way forever. 

Perpetual machines cannot exist. I thought that there
were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that.

Not an atheist
BN
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
- Naren Bala (Software Evaluation Engineer)
- HOME: (503) 627-0380		WORK: (503) 627-2742
- All standard disclaimers apply. 

after prepro  From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage 
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton  OR
Lines 21

In article  sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
Looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states
didnt survive I agree people are people and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes 
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules 
again


Nothing is perfect Nothing is perpetual ie even if it is perfect
it isnt going to stay that way forever 

Perpetual machines cannot exist I thought that there
were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that

Not an atheist
BN


 Naren Bala Software Evaluation Engineer
 HOME 503 6270380		WORK 503 6272742
 All standard disclaimers apply 

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 13/15 - Interest Groups & Publications
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.groups_733694492
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:01:32 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 354
Supersedes: <groups_730956605@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu

Archive-name: space/groups
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:08 $

SPACE ACTIVIST/INTEREST/RESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS

    GROUPS

    AIA -- Aerospace Industry Association. Professional group, with primary
	membership of major aerospace firms. Headquartered in the DC area.
	Acts as the "voice of the aerospace industry" -- and it's opinions
	are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
	the firms in AIA.

	    [address needed]

    AIAA -- American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
	Professional association, with somewhere about 30,000-40,000
	members. 65 local chapters around the country -- largest chapters
	are DC area (3000 members), LA (2100 members), San Francisco (2000
	members), Seattle/NW (1500), Houston (1200) and Orange County
	(1200), plus student chapters. Not a union, but acts to represent
	aviation and space professionals (engineers, managers, financial
	types) nationwide. Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
	aviation topics publishes technical Journals (Aerospace Journal,
	Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, etc.), technical reference books
	and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
	their published papers and proceedings. Also offers continuing
	education classes on aerospace design. Has over 60 technical
	committees, and over 30 committees for industry standards. AIAA acts
	as a professional society -- offers a centralized resume/jobs
	function, provides classes on job search, offers low-cost health and
	life insurance, and lobbies for appropriate legislation (AIAA was
	one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs - Individual
	Retirement Accounts). Very active public policy arm -- works
	directly with the media, congress and government agencies as a
	legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
	technology technical issues. Reasonably non-partisan, in that they
	represent the industry as a whole, and not a single company,
	organization, or viewpoint.

	Membership $70/yr (student memberships are less).

	American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
	The Aerospace Center
	370 L'Enfant Promenade, SW
	Washington, DC 20077-0820
	(202)-646-7400

    AMSAT - develops small satellites (since the 1960s) for a variety of
	uses by amateur radio enthusiasts. Has various publications,
	supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PC/Mac/Amiga etc.

	Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
	P.O. Box 27
	Washington, DC 20044
	(301)-589-6062

    ASERA - Australian Space Engineering and Research Association. An
	Australian non-profit organisation to coordinate, promote, and
	conduct space R&D projects in Australia, involving both Australian
	and international (primarily university) collaborators. Activities
	include the development of sounding rockets, small satellites
	(especially microsatellites), high-altitude research balloons, and
	appropriate payloads. Provides student projects at all levels, and
	is open to any person or organisation interested in participating.
	Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal.

	Membership $A100 (dual subscription)
	Subscriptions $A25 (newsletter only) $A50 (journal only)

	ASERA Ltd
	PO Box 184
	Ryde, NSW, Australia, 2112
	email: lindley@syd.dit.csiro.au

    BIS - British Interplanetary Society. Probably the oldest pro-space
	group, BIS publishes two excellent journals: _Spaceflight_, covering
	current space activities, and the _Journal of the BIS_, containing
	technical papers on space activities from near-term space probes to
	interstellar missions. BIS has published a design study for an
	interstellar probe called _Daedalus_.

	British Interplanetary Society
	27/29 South Lambeth Road
	London SW8 1SZ
	ENGLAND

	No dues information available at present.

    ISU - International Space University. ISU is a non-profit international
	graduate-level educational institution dedicated to promoting the
	peaceful exploration and development of space through multi-cultural
	and multi-disciplinary space education and research. For further
	information on ISU's summer session program or Permanent Campus
	activities please send messages to 'information@isu.isunet.edu' or
	contact the ISU Executive Offices at:

	International Space University
	955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
	Cambridge, MA 02139
	(617)-354-1987 (phone)
	(617)-354-7666 (fax)

    L-5 Society (defunct). Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
	advocate space colonization. Its major success was in preventing US
	participation in the UN "Moon Treaty" in the late 1970s. Merged with
	the National Space Institute in 1987, forming the National Space
	Society.

    NSC - National Space Club. Open for general membership, but not well
	known at all. Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
	industry. Acts as information conduit and social gathering group.
	Active in DC, with a chapter in LA. Monthly meetings with invited
	speakers who are "heavy hitters" in the field. Annual "Outlook on
	Space" conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
	annual planning for space programs. Cheap membership (approx
	$20/yr).

	    [address needed]

    NSS - the National Space Society. NSS is a pro-space group distinguished
	by its network of local chapters. Supports a general agenda of space
	development and man-in-space, including the NASA space station.
	Publishes _Ad Astra_, a monthly glossy magazine, and runs Shuttle
	launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services. A major sponsor
	of the annual space development conference. Associated with
	Spacecause and Spacepac, political lobbying organizations.

	Membership $18 (youth/senior) $35 (regular).

	National Space Society
	Membership Department
	922 Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E.
	Washington, DC 20003-2140
	(202)-543-1900

    Planetary Society - founded by Carl Sagan. The largest space advocacy
	group. Publishes _Planetary Report_, a monthly glossy, and has
	supported SETI hardware development financially. Agenda is primarily
	support of space science, recently amended to include an
	international manned mission to Mars.

	The Planetary Society
	65 North Catalina Avenue
	Pasadena, CA 91106

	Membership $35/year.

    SSI - the Space Studies Institute, founded by Dr. Gerard O'Neill.
	Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
	O'Neill's death in 1992. Publishes _SSI Update_, a bimonthly
	newsletter describing work-in-progress. Conducts a research program
	including mass-drivers, lunar mining processes and simulants,
	composites from lunar materials, solar power satellites. Runs the
	biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing.

	Membership $25/year. Senior Associates ($100/year and up) fund most
	    SSI research.

	Space Studies Institute
	258 Rosedale Road
	PO Box 82
	Princeton, NJ 08540

    SEDS - Students for the Exploration and Development of Space. Founded in
	1980 at MIT and Princeton. SEDS is a chapter-based pro-space
	organization at high schools and universities around the world.
	Entirely student run. Each chapter is independent and coordinates
	its own local activities. Nationally, SEDS runs a scholarship
	competition, design contests, and holds an annual international
	conference and meeting in late summer.

	Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
	MIT Room W20-445
	77 Massachusetts Avenue
	Cambridge, MA  02139
	(617)-253-8897
	email: odyssey@athena.mit.edu

	Dues determined by local chapter.

    SPACECAUSE -  A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
	Family of Organizations. Publishes a bi-monthly newsletter,
	Spacecause News. Annual dues is $25. Members also receive a discount
	on _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Activities to support pro-space
	legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
	with legislative staff. Spacecause primarily operates in the
	legislative process.

	National Office			West Coast Office
	Spacecause			Spacecause
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE	3435 Ocean Park Blvd.
	Washington, D.C. 20003		Suite 201-S
	(202)-543-1900			Santa Monica, CA 90405

    SPACEPAC - A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
	Organizations. Spacepac researches issues, policies, and candidates.
	Each year, updates _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Current Handbook
	price is $25. While Spacepac does not have a membership, it does
	have regional contacts to coordinate local activity. Spacepac
	primarily operates in the election process, contributing money and
	volunteers to pro-space candidates.

	Spacepac
	922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE
	Washington, DC 20003
	(202)-543-1900

    UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION - a public, non-profit organization
	supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
	international education, understanding and support of space. The
	group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
	in education. Other projects include developing lesson plans that
	use space to teach other basic skills such as reading. Publishes
	"Spacewatch," a monthly B&W glossy magazine of USSF events and
	general space news. Annual dues:

		Charter		$50 ($100 first year)
		Individual	$35
		Teacher		$29
		College student $20
		HS/Jr. High	$10
		Elementary	 $5
		Founder &     $1000+
		    Life Member

	United States Space Foundation
	PO Box 1838
	Colorado Springs, CO 80901
	(719)-550-1000

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
    asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
    minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena, California 91301


    PUBLICATIONS

    Aerospace Daily (McGraw-Hill)
	Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues. Approx. $1400/yr.

    Air & Space / Smithsonian (bimonthly magazine)
	Box 53261
	Boulder, CO 80332-3261
	$18/year US, $24/year international

    ESA - The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals,
	generally available free of charge. A document describing them in
	more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
	pub/SPACE/FAQ/ESAPublications.

    Final Frontier (mass-market bimonthly magazine) - history, book reviews,
	general-interest articles (e.g. "The 7 Wonders of the Solar System",
	"Everything you always wanted to know about military space
	programs", etc.)

	Final Frontier Publishing Co.
	PO Box 534
	Mt. Morris, IL 61054-7852
	$14.95/year US, $19.95 Canada, $23.95 elsewhere

    Space News (weekly magazine) - covers US civil and military space
	programs. Said to have good political and business but spotty
	technical coverage.

	Space News
	Springfield VA 22159-0500
	(703)-642-7330
	$75/year, may have discounts for NSS/SSI members

    Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times - publications of
	the American Astronautical Society. No details.

	AAS Business Office
	6352 Rolling Mill Place, Suite #102
	Springfield, VA 22152
	(703)-866-0020

    GPS World (semi-monthly) - reports on current and new uses of GPS, news
	and analysis of the system and policies affecting it, and technical
	and product issues shaping GPS applications.

	GPS World
	859 Willamette St.
	P.O. Box 10460
	Eugene, OR 97440-2460
	(503)-343-1200

	Free to qualified individuals; write for free sample copy.

    Innovation (Space Technology) -- Free. Published by the NASA Office of
	Advanced Concepts and Technology. A revised version of the NASA
	Office of Commercial Programs newsletter.

    Planetary Encounter - in-depth technical coverage of planetary missions,
	with diagrams, lists of experiments, interviews with people directly
	involved.
    World Spaceflight News - in-depth technical coverage of near-Earth
	spaceflight. Mostly covers the shuttle: payload manifests, activity
	schedules, and post-mission assessment reports for every mission.

	Box 98
	Sewell, NJ 08080
	$30/year US/Canada
	$45/year elsewhere

    Space (bi-monthly magazine)
	British aerospace trade journal. Very good. $75/year.

    Space Calendar (weekly newsletter)

    Space Daily/Space Fax Daily  (newsletter)
	Short (1 paragraph) news notes. Available online for a fee
	(unknown).

    Space Technology Investor/Commercial Space News -- irregular Internet
	column on aspects of commercial space business. Free. Also limited
	fax and paper edition.

	    P.O. Box 2452
	    Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452.

    All the following are published by:

	Phillips Business Information, Inc.
	7811 Montrose Road
	Potomac, MC 20854

	Aerospace Financial News - $595/year.
	Defense Daily - Very good coverage of space and defense issues.
	    $1395/year.
	Space Business News (bi-weekly) - Very good overview of space
	    business activities. $497/year.
	Space Exploration Technology (bi-weekly) - $495/year.
	Space Station News (bi-weekly) - $497/year.

    UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS

	Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
	groups (or others not mentioned) for inclusion in the answer is
	encouraged to do so.

	AAS - American Astronautical Society
	Other groups not mentioned above

NEXT: FAQ #14/15 - How to become an astronaut

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1315  Interest Groups  Publications
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csgroups_733694492
Expires 6 May 1993 200132 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 354
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu

Archivename spacegroups
Lastmodified Date 930401 143908 

SPACE ACTIVISTINTERESTRESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS

    GROUPS

    AIA  Aerospace Industry Association Professional group with primary
	membership of major aerospace firms Headquartered in the DC area
	Acts as the voice of the aerospace industry  and its opinions
	are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
	the firms in AIA

	    [address needed]

    AIAA  American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
	Professional association with somewhere about 3000040000
	members 65 local chapters around the country  largest chapters
	are DC area 3000 members LA 2100 members San Francisco 2000
	members SeattleNW 1500 Houston 1200 and Orange County
	1200 plus student chapters Not a union but acts to represent
	aviation and space professionals engineers managers financial
	types nationwide Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
	aviation topics publishes technical Journals Aerospace Journal
	Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets etc technical reference books
	and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
	their published papers and proceedings Also offers continuing
	education classes on aerospace design Has over 60 technical
	committees and over 30 committees for industry standards AIAA acts
	as a professional society  offers a centralized resumejobs
	function provides classes on job search offers lowcost health and
	life insurance and lobbies for appropriate legislation AIAA was
	one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs  Individual
	Retirement Accounts Very active public policy arm  works
	directly with the media congress and government agencies as a
	legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
	technology technical issues Reasonably nonpartisan in that they
	represent the industry as a whole and not a single company
	organization or viewpoint

	Membership 70yr student memberships are less

	American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
	The Aerospace Center
	370 LEnfant Promenade SW
	Washington DC 200770820
	2026467400

    AMSAT  develops small satellites since the 1960s for a variety of
	uses by amateur radio enthusiasts Has various publications
	supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PCMacAmiga etc

	Amateur Satellite Corporation AMSAT
	PO Box 27
	Washington DC 20044
	3015896062

    ASERA  Australian Space Engineering and Research Association An
	Australian nonprofit organisation to coordinate promote and
	conduct space RD projects in Australia involving both Australian
	and international primarily university collaborators Activities
	include the development of sounding rockets small satellites
	especially microsatellites highaltitude research balloons and
	appropriate payloads Provides student projects at all levels and
	is open to any person or organisation interested in participating
	Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal

	Membership A100 dual subscription
	Subscriptions A25 newsletter only A50 journal only

	ASERA Ltd
	PO Box 184
	Ryde NSW Australia 2112
	email lindleysydditcsiroau

    BIS  British Interplanetary Society Probably the oldest prospace
	group BIS publishes two excellent journals _Spaceflight_ covering
	current space activities and the _Journal of the BIS_ containing
	technical papers on space activities from nearterm space probes to
	interstellar missions BIS has published a design study for an
	interstellar probe called _Daedalus_

	British Interplanetary Society
	2729 South Lambeth Road
	London SW8 1SZ
	ENGLAND

	No dues information available at present

    ISU  International Space University ISU is a nonprofit international
	graduatelevel educational institution dedicated to promoting the
	peaceful exploration and development of space through multicultural
	and multidisciplinary space education and research For further
	information on ISUs summer session program or Permanent Campus
	activities please send messages to informationisuisunetedu or
	contact the ISU Executive Offices at

	International Space University
	955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
	Cambridge MA 02139
	6173541987 phone
	6173547666 fax

    L5 Society defunct Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
	advocate space colonization Its major success was in preventing US
	participation in the UN Moon Treaty in the late 1970s Merged with
	the National Space Institute in 1987 forming the National Space
	Society

    NSC  National Space Club Open for general membership but not well
	known at all Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
	industry Acts as information conduit and social gathering group
	Active in DC with a chapter in LA Monthly meetings with invited
	speakers who are heavy hitters in the field Annual Outlook on
	Space conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
	annual planning for space programs Cheap membership approx
	20yr

	    [address needed]

    NSS  the National Space Society NSS is a prospace group distinguished
	by its network of local chapters Supports a general agenda of space
	development and maninspace including the NASA space station
	Publishes _Ad Astra_ a monthly glossy magazine and runs Shuttle
	launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services A major sponsor
	of the annual space development conference Associated with
	Spacecause and Spacepac political lobbying organizations

	Membership 18 youthsenior 35 regular

	National Space Society
	Membership Department
	922 Pennsylvania Avenue SE
	Washington DC 200032140
	2025431900

    Planetary Society  founded by Carl Sagan The largest space advocacy
	group Publishes _Planetary Report_ a monthly glossy and has
	supported SETI hardware development financially Agenda is primarily
	support of space science recently amended to include an
	international manned mission to Mars

	The Planetary Society
	65 North Catalina Avenue
	Pasadena CA 91106

	Membership 35year

    SSI  the Space Studies Institute founded by Dr Gerard ONeill
	Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
	ONeills death in 1992 Publishes _SSI Update_ a bimonthly
	newsletter describing workinprogress Conducts a research program
	including massdrivers lunar mining processes and simulants
	composites from lunar materials solar power satellites Runs the
	biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing

	Membership 25year Senior Associates 100year and up fund most
	    SSI research

	Space Studies Institute
	258 Rosedale Road
	PO Box 82
	Princeton NJ 08540

    SEDS  Students for the Exploration and Development of Space Founded in
	1980 at MIT and Princeton SEDS is a chapterbased prospace
	organization at high schools and universities around the world
	Entirely student run Each chapter is independent and coordinates
	its own local activities Nationally SEDS runs a scholarship
	competition design contests and holds an annual international
	conference and meeting in late summer

	Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
	MIT Room W20445
	77 Massachusetts Avenue
	Cambridge MA  02139
	6172538897
	email odysseyathenamitedu

	Dues determined by local chapter

    SPACECAUSE   A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
	Family of Organizations Publishes a bimonthly newsletter
	Spacecause News Annual dues is 25 Members also receive a discount
	on _The Space Activists Handbook_ Activities to support prospace
	legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
	with legislative staff Spacecause primarily operates in the
	legislative process

	National Office			West Coast Office
	Spacecause			Spacecause
	922 Pennsylvania Ave SE	3435 Ocean Park Blvd
	Washington DC 20003		Suite 201S
	2025431900			Santa Monica CA 90405

    SPACEPAC  A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
	Organizations Spacepac researches issues policies and candidates
	Each year updates _The Space Activists Handbook_ Current Handbook
	price is 25 While Spacepac does not have a membership it does
	have regional contacts to coordinate local activity Spacepac
	primarily operates in the election process contributing money and
	volunteers to prospace candidates

	Spacepac
	922 Pennsylvania Ave SE
	Washington DC 20003
	2025431900

    UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION  a public nonprofit organization
	supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
	international education understanding and support of space The
	group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
	in education Other projects include developing lesson plans that
	use space to teach other basic skills such as reading Publishes
	Spacewatch a monthly BW glossy magazine of USSF events and
	general space news Annual dues

		Charter		50 100 first year
		Individual	35
		Teacher		29
		College student 20
		HSJr High	10
		Elementary	 5
		Founder      1000
		    Life Member

	United States Space Foundation
	PO Box 1838
	Colorado Springs CO 80901
	7195501000

    WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION  has been designing and building a solarsail
    spacecraft for longer than any similar group many JPL employees lend
    their talents to this project WSF also provides partial funding for the
    Palomar Sky Survey an extremely successful search for nearEarth
    asteroids Publishes Foundation News and Foundation Astronautics
    Notebook each a quarterly 48 page newsletter Contributing Associate
    minimum of 15year but more money always welcome to support projects

	World Space Foundation
	Post Office Box Y
	South Pasadena California 91301


    PUBLICATIONS

    Aerospace Daily McGrawHill
	Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues Approx 1400yr

    Air  Space  Smithsonian bimonthly magazine
	Box 53261
	Boulder CO 803323261
	18year US 24year international

    ESA  The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals
	generally available free of charge A document describing them in
	more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
	pubSPACEFAQESAPublications

    Final Frontier massmarket bimonthly magazine  history book reviews
	generalinterest articles eg The 7 Wonders of the Solar System
	Everything you always wanted to know about military space
	programs etc

	Final Frontier Publishing Co
	PO Box 534
	Mt Morris IL 610547852
	1495year US 1995 Canada 2395 elsewhere

    Space News weekly magazine  covers US civil and military space
	programs Said to have good political and business but spotty
	technical coverage

	Space News
	Springfield VA 221590500
	7036427330
	75year may have discounts for NSSSSI members

    Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times  publications of
	the American Astronautical Society No details

	AAS Business Office
	6352 Rolling Mill Place Suite 102
	Springfield VA 22152
	7038660020

    GPS World semimonthly  reports on current and new uses of GPS news
	and analysis of the system and policies affecting it and technical
	and product issues shaping GPS applications

	GPS World
	859 Willamette St
	PO Box 10460
	Eugene OR 974402460
	5033431200

	Free to qualified individuals write for free sample copy

    Innovation Space Technology  Free Published by the NASA Office of
	Advanced Concepts and Technology A revised version of the NASA
	Office of Commercial Programs newsletter

    Planetary Encounter  indepth technical coverage of planetary missions
	with diagrams lists of experiments interviews with people directly
	involved
    World Spaceflight News  indepth technical coverage of nearEarth
	spaceflight Mostly covers the shuttle payload manifests activity
	schedules and postmission assessment reports for every mission

	Box 98
	Sewell NJ 08080
	30year USCanada
	45year elsewhere

    Space bimonthly magazine
	British aerospace trade journal Very good 75year

    Space Calendar weekly newsletter

    Space DailySpace Fax Daily  newsletter
	Short 1 paragraph news notes Available online for a fee
	unknown

    Space Technology InvestorCommercial Space News  irregular Internet
	column on aspects of commercial space business Free Also limited
	fax and paper edition

	    PO Box 2452
	    Seal Beach CA 907401452

    All the following are published by

	Phillips Business Information Inc
	7811 Montrose Road
	Potomac MC 20854

	Aerospace Financial News  595year
	Defense Daily  Very good coverage of space and defense issues
	    1395year
	Space Business News biweekly  Very good overview of space
	    business activities 497year
	Space Exploration Technology biweekly  495year
	Space Station News biweekly  497year

    UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS

	Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
	groups or others not mentioned for inclusion in the answer is
	encouraged to do so

	AAS  American Astronautical Society
	Other groups not mentioned above

NEXT FAQ 1415  How to become an astronaut

preprocess doc  From: swoithe@crackle.uucp (Stan Woithe)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer Update - 04/14/93
Organization: University of Adelaide
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: crackle.itd.adelaide.edu.au
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL

Hiya 

I'm a VERY amuture astronomer in Adelaide Australia, and today, I heard some
very interesting and exciting news from a local program on TV. As I couldn't
find anything on it on the news server, I have posted this. However, if it is
old information, tell me, and ill sue the TV station for saying they are 
'Up to date' ;-)

(Also, my news server could be slow. . so . . .!!!

I only caught the end of the article, so all the information on the topic
is not known to me at the moment.

The news is of a small 'psudo' planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a 
Hawiian obsevatory, supposably 'recently' - acording to the report.
It was meant to be about 150miles in diamater, and a faily large distance 
from the plutos orbit.  (it had a computer drawing, and the orbit distance
from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest
apart.  This is all I found out about it. OH it is called Karna. (un-officially
).  
CAn anyone give any more information to me on it???

Thanx.

Brendan Woithe
swoithe@crackle.aelmg.adelaide.edu.au

BTW - if this is old news, does anyone know a good lawyer. . . .8)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From swoithecrackleuucp Stan Woithe
Subject Re Mars Observer Update  041493
Organization University of Adelaide
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost crackleitdadelaideeduau
Keywords Mars Observer JPL

Hiya 

Im a VERY amuture astronomer in Adelaide Australia and today I heard some
very interesting and exciting news from a local program on TV As I couldnt
find anything on it on the news server I have posted this However if it is
old information tell me and ill sue the TV station for saying they are 
Up to date 

Also my news server could be slow  so   

I only caught the end of the article so all the information on the topic
is not known to me at the moment

The news is of a small psudo planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a 
Hawiian obsevatory supposably recently  acording to the report
It was meant to be about 150miles in diamater and a faily large distance 
from the plutos orbit  it had a computer drawing and the orbit distance
from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest
apart  This is all I found out about it OH it is called Karna unofficially
  
CAn anyone give any more information to me on it

Thanx

Brendan Woithe
swoithecrackleaelmgadelaideeduau

BTW  if this is old news does anyone know a good lawyer   8



preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

[...]
>>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly.  People
>>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
>That's not true.  I gave you two examples.  One was the rather
>pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
>arrived.  The other was the system of social ranks that were used
>in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
>of the population.

These don't seem like "little things" to me.  At least, they are orders
worse than the motto.  Do you think that the motto is a "little thing"
that will lead to worse things?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly  People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
Thats not true  I gave you two examples  One was the rather
pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived  The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest 
of the population

These dont seem like little things to me  At least they are orders
worse than the motto  Do you think that the motto is a little thing
that will lead to worse things

keith

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: IF ONLY HE KNEW
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20

prudenti@juncol.juniata.edu wrote:

: Upon arriving at home, Joseph probably took advantage of Mary...had his way
: with her so to speak.  Of course, word of this couldn't get around so Mary,
: being the highly-religious follower that she was decided "Hey, I'll just say
: that GOD impregnated me...no one will ever know!"
: 
: Thus, seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul, she was believed...
:     
: And then came Jesus, the child born from violence.
: 
: 
: 

Dave,

Can you explain the purpose of your post, I can't imagine what you
must have thougt it meant. 

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re IF ONLY HE KNEW
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20

prudentijuncoljuniataedu wrote

 Upon arriving at home Joseph probably took advantage of Maryhad his way
 with her so to speak  Of course word of this couldnt get around so Mary
 being the highlyreligious follower that she was decided Hey Ill just say
 that GOD impregnated meno one will ever know
 
 Thus seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed
     
 And then came Jesus the child born from violence
 
 
 

Dave

Can you explain the purpose of your post I cant imagine what you
must have thougt it meant 

Bill

preprocess doc  From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Stereo Pix of planets?
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 5

Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces?  GIFs preferred, but any will do.  I'm
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos, Deimos, Mars
and the Moon (in that order).
  Thanks. 

after prepro  From arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler
Subject Stereo Pix of planets
Organization California State University Sacramento
Lines 5

Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces  GIFs preferred but any will do  Im
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos Deimos Mars
and the Moon in that order
  Thanks 

preprocess doc  From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 27

cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:

>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation 
>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and 
>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis. 
>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people 
>experience.  

I agree, I reckon it's television and the increase in fundamentalism.. You
think its the increase in pre-marital sex... others thinks its because
psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent
criminals con them into letting them out into the streets... others think
it's the increase in designer drugs... others think it's a communist plot.
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control. We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. But one
things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage.

Jeff.

>> 
>>  Fred Rice <-- a Muslim, giving his point of view.
>>  darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au 

>cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu  

after prepro  From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 27

cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes

Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation 
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and 
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis 
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people 
experience  

I agree I reckon its television and the increase in fundamentalism You
think its the increase in premarital sex others thinks its because
psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent
criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think
its the increase in designer drugs others think its a communist plot
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing But one
things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage

Jeff

 
  Fred Rice  a Muslim giving his point of view
  dariceyoyoccmonasheduau 

cfaehlvestaunmedu  

preprocess doc   zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!juliet.caltech.edu!lmh
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 18

In article <1APR199313404295@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu<, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes...
<In article <31MAR199321091163@juliet.caltech.edu<, lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.) writes...
<<Atheism (Greek 'a' not + 'theos' god)  Belief that there is no god.
<<Agnosticism (Greek 'a' not + ~ 'gnostein ?' know) Belief that it is
<<  not possible to determine if there is a god.

<No.  Agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive belief--a
<belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods.
<That's a belief I'm inclined to reject.  You have also defined atheism
<here as a positive belief--that there is no god.  A fairly large number
<of atheists on alt.atheism reject this definition, instead holding that
<atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god.  Michael Martin, in
<_Atheism: A Philosophical Justification_, distinguishes strong atheism

 My mistake. I will have to get a newer dictionary and read the 
follow up line.

larry henling   lmh@shakes.caltech.edu

after prepro   zaphodmpsohiostateeduuscelroyjplnasagovnntpservercaltechedujulietcaltechedulmh
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M
Distribution worldlocal
Organization California Institute of Technology
NNTPPostingHost julietcaltechedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Lines 18

In article 1APR199313404295skybluccitarizonaedu lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard writes
In article 31MAR199321091163julietcaltechedu lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M writes
Atheism Greek a not  theos god  Belief that there is no god
Agnosticism Greek a not   gnostein  know Belief that it is
  not possible to determine if there is a god

No  Agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive beliefa
belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods
Thats a belief Im inclined to reject  You have also defined atheism
here as a positive beliefthat there is no god  A fairly large number
of atheists on altatheism reject this definition instead holding that
atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god  Michael Martin in
_Atheism A Philosophical Justification_ distinguishes strong atheism

 My mistake I will have to get a newer dictionary and read the 
follow up line

larry henling   lmhshakescaltechedu

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 45

In <1pq7rj$q2u@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

>In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>|
>|I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
>|current spending rules don't permit it to be workable.  For this to
>|work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
>|minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
>|enough to make this attractive to a private firm.  Since they
>|generally can't allocate money except one year at a time, the
>|government can't provide such a tenant guarantee.


>Fred.

>	Try reading a bit.  THe government does lots of multi year
>contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses.  They just like to be
>damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
>contract.   THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
>as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
>Multi year contracts,  that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.

I don't have to "try reading a bit", Pat.  I *work* as a government
contractor and know what the rules are like.  Yes, they sign some
(damned few -- which is why everyone is always having to go to
Washington to see about next week's funding) multi-year contracts;
they also aren't willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties
when they *do* decide to cut the multi-year contract and not pay on it
(which can happen arbitrarily at any time, no matter what previous
plans were) to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a
private space station with the government as the expected prime
occupant.

I'd like a source for that statement about "the reason they aren't
cutting defense spending as much as they would like"; I just don't buy
it. The other thing I find a bit 'funny' about your posting, Pat, is
that several other people answered the question pretty much the same
way I did; mine is the one you comment (and incorrectly, I think) on.
I think that says a lot.  You and Tommy should move in together.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 45

In 1pq7rjq2uaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes

I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable  For this to
work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
enough to make this attractive to a private firm  Since they
generally cant allocate money except one year at a time the
government cant provide such a tenant guarantee


Fred

	Try reading a bit  THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses  They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract   THe reason they arent cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts  that its now cheaper to just finish them out

I dont have to try reading a bit Pat  I work as a government
contractor and know what the rules are like  Yes they sign some
damned few  which is why everyone is always having to go to
Washington to see about next weeks funding multiyear contracts
they also arent willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties
when they do decide to cut the multiyear contract and not pay on it
which can happen arbitrarily at any time no matter what previous
plans were to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a
private space station with the government as the expected prime
occupant

Id like a source for that statement about the reason they arent
cutting defense spending as much as they would like I just dont buy
it The other thing I find a bit funny about your posting Pat is
that several other people answered the question pretty much the same
way I did mine is the one you comment and incorrectly I think on
I think that says a lot  You and Tommy should move in together

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
In-Reply-To: mathew's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14: 15:20 +0100
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
	<930416.141520.7h1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 12

>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:15:20 +0100, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> said:

m> The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
m> finished writing a sequel to the Bible.

Also, it's the 16th now.  Can the Feds get him on tax evasion?  I don't
remember hearing about him running to the Post Office last night.

--
Ed McCreary                                               ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com                                   _-\_<, 
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao."  (*)/'(*)

after prepro  From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
InReplyTo mathews message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 14 1520 0100
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
	9304161415207h1rusnewsw165wmantiscouk
Lines 12

 On Fri 16 Apr 1993 141520 0100 mathew  said

m The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
m finished writing a sequel to the Bible

Also its the 16th now  Can the Feds get him on tax evasion  I dont
remember hearing about him running to the Post Office last night


Ed McCreary                                               __o
edmtwistocompaqcom                                   _\_ 
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao  

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: ISLAM: a clearer view
Lines: 25
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 25

In article <16BAFC876.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
>Subject: Re: ISLAM: a clearer view
>Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:15:18 GMT
>In article <healta.60.734567658@saturn.wwc.edu>
>healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
> 
>>>Sorry, it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is
>>>the reason why torture was introduced outside the Romanic countries
>>>at the end of the Middle Ages. In other words, the Holy Mother Church
>>>which is lead infallibly by the Holy Ghost has spread it.
>>
>>The Roman Catholic Church claims to be lead by the "infallable" pope.
>>That's why she (the RC Church) has done so many wicked things to Xtians and
>>non-believers alike.
> 
> 
>The rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based
>on the claim above. The dogma about the pope is of Jesuitic origin and
>has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century.
>   Benedikt

You're right.  Thanks for enlightening me.

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re ISLAM a clearer view
Lines 25
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 25

In article 16BAFC876I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re ISLAM a clearer view
Date Tue 13 Apr 1993 131518 GMT
In article 
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
 
Sorry it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is
the reason why torture was introduced outside the Romanic countries
at the end of the Middle Ages In other words the Holy Mother Church
which is lead infallibly by the Holy Ghost has spread it

The Roman Catholic Church claims to be lead by the infallable pope
Thats why she the RC Church has done so many wicked things to Xtians and
nonbelievers alike
 
 
The rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based
on the claim above The dogma about the pope is of Jesuitic origin and
has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century
   Benedikt

Youre right  Thanks for enlightening me

Tammy

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: sgi
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <115565@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|> In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
|> >ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
|> >community in the Uk and elsewhere.
|> 
|> >jon.
|> 
|> Grow up, childish propagandist.

Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you, but exactly who is being childish here is 
open to question.

BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors.

And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
the street?   Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned 
and operated bank couldn't possibly cheat them? 

So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all 
work out right next time.

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization sgi
Lines 31
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
 ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
 community in the Uk and elsewhere
 
 jon
 
 Grow up childish propagandist

Gregg Im really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things arent quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you but exactly who is being childish here is 
open to question

BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank 
what will someone bet me they werent real Islamic owners and
operators  and yet it actually turned out to be a longrunning
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors

And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interestmotivated western bank down
the street   Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned 
and operated bank couldnt possibly cheat them 

So please dont try to con us into thinking that it will all 
work out right next time

jon

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: army in space
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net


There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization.

They were the precursors to SDIO.  and still exist under
that umbrella.  Army Signal Corp's  and DCA  defense Comm Agency
oops  DISA, they just changed names  do space work.  that's
the point of all those defense comm sats.  

But don't worry,  there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging,
somehow you'll end up there ;-)

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re army in space
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 10
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet


There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization

They were the precursors to SDIO  and still exist under
that umbrella  Army Signal Corps  and DCA  defense Comm Agency
oops  DISA they just changed names  do space work  thats
the point of all those defense comm sats  

But dont worry  there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging
somehow youll end up there 

preprocess doc  Subject: <None>
From: bioccnt@otago.ac.nz
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
Nntp-Posting-Host: thorin.otago.ac.nz
Lines: 12


Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
bidder....." 

Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated. 

Clive Trotman


after prepro  Subject 
From bioccntotagoacnz
Organization University of Otago Dunedin New Zealand
NntpPostingHost thorinotagoacnz
Lines 12


Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder 

Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated 

Clive Trotman


preprocess doc  From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 29

: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

: >There is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a
: >breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down, even
: >if there is something like a 5cm hole in the wall that nobody tries
: >to plug.

Josh Hopkins (jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) replied:
: Wow.

: Double wow.  Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall?

Personnally, I don't know, but I'd like to try it sometime.

Programmatically, yes, we can land an Orbiter with a 5 cm hole in
the wall -- provided that the thing which caused 5 cm hole didn't
cause a Crit 1 failure on some of the internal systems.  There are
a few places where a 5 cm hole would cause a Bad Day -- especially
if the 5 cm hole went all the way through the Orbiter and out the
other side, as could easily happen with a meteor strike.  But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de-orbit
to the next available landing site.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

     "NASA turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction
      into fact" -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator


after prepro  From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office 
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 29

 henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

 There is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a
 breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down even
 if there is something like a 5cm hole in the wall that nobody tries
 to plug

Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu replied
 Wow

 Double wow  Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall

Personnally I dont know but Id like to try it sometime

Programmatically yes we can land an Orbiter with a 5 cm hole in
the wall  provided that the thing which caused 5 cm hole didnt
cause a Crit 1 failure on some of the internal systems  There are
a few places where a 5 cm hole would cause a Bad Day  especially
if the 5 cm hole went all the way through the Orbiter and out the
other side as could easily happen with a meteor strike  But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately deorbit
to the next available landing site

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

     NASA turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction
      into fact  Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator


preprocess doc  From: Mehrtens_T@msm.cdx.mot.com
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: tom_mac.prds.cdx.mot.com
Organization: Motorola_Codex
Lines: 25

In article <1qkmkiINNep3@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug
Mohney) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com>,
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>>
>>There are actually only two of us.  I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary.  Oh
yeah,
>>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
>
>Damn!  So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
>LOT of the K-MART!
>    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
>  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

They just tore down the Kmart near my house (putting in a new suptermarket).  I
heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place!  8-{)

Tom

I liked this one I read a while ago...

"Data sheet: HSN-3000 Nuclear Event Detector. The [NED] senses the gamma
radiation pulse [from a] nuclear weapon." As if we wouldn't notice...



after prepro  From Mehrtens_Tmsmcdxmotcom
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost tom_macprdscdxmotcom
Organization Motorola_Codex
Lines 25

In article 1qkmkiINNep3mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug
Mohney writes
In article 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom
pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes

There are actually only two of us  I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary  Oh
yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby

Damn  So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the KMART
    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

They just tore down the Kmart near my house putting in a new suptermarket  I
heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place  8

Tom

I liked this one I read a while ago

Data sheet HSN3000 Nuclear Event Detector The [NED] senses the gamma
radiation pulse [from a] nuclear weapon As if we wouldnt notice



preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution. 
>I realise that this is widely held belief in America, but in fact
>the clause on cruel and unusual punishments, like a lot of the
>rest, was lifted from the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

Just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn't spend
much time on the wording.

>>We have already looked in the dictionary to define the word.  Isn't 
>>this sufficient?
>Since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to
>inflict injury or grief counted as "cruel", sure.

People can be described as cruel in this way, but punishments cannot.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution 
I realise that this is widely held belief in America but in fact
the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the
rest was lifted from the English Bill of Rights of 1689

Just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didnt spend
much time on the wording

We have already looked in the dictionary to define the word  Isnt 
this sufficient
Since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to
inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure

People can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot

keith

preprocess doc  From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 5

	If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
one  should be called 'Smiley'.

							James Nicoll


after prepro  From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Western Ontario London
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 5

	If the  new  Kuiper belt object is  called Karla the next
one  should be called Smiley

							James Nicoll


preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
From: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
 <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU><1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 48

In article <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
responds to a lot of grief given to him
>In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
>galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton)
a.k.a. "The Sagemaster"
[ . . .]
>But then I ask, So?  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
>answering John's question of why?  Why are there genetic diseases,
>and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
>babies to develop antibodies.  Is it God's fault? (the original
>question) -- I say no, it is not.

Most of Scotty's followup *was* irrelevant to the original question,
but this is not unusual, as threads often quickly evolve away from
the original topic.  What I could not understand is why Jim spent so
much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies.

[ . . . ]
>> May I ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from?
[ . . . ]
>
>By "collective" I was referring to the idea that God works with
>humanity on two levels, individually and collectively.  If mankind
>as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of
>mankind),

Well, I guess hypothetical Adam was "the majority of mankind"
seeing how he was the ONLY man at the time.

>then God will allow the consequences of that action to
>affect mankind as a whole.  If you didn't understand that, then I
>apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion.

I understand what you mean by "collective," but I think it is an
insane perversion of justice.  What sort of judge would punish the
descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor?

>If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
>response, send a copy to Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com.  I can't read
>a.a. every day, and some posts slip by.  Thanks.

Well, I must admit that you probably read a.a. more often than I read
the Bible these days.  But you missed a couple of good followups to
your post.  I'm sending you a personal copy of my followup which I
hope you will respond to publically in a.a.

John
The Sageless

after prepro  Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
From J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson
 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom
Organization Penn State University
Lines 48

In article 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
responds to a lot of grief given to him
In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU
galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton
aka The Sagemaster
[   ]
But then I ask So  Where is this relevant to my discussion in
answering Johns question of why  Why are there genetic diseases
and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
babies to develop antibodies  Is it Gods fault the original
question  I say no it is not

Most of Scottys followup was irrelevant to the original question
but this is not unusual as threads often quickly evolve away from
the original topic  What I could not understand is why Jim spent so
much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies

[    ]
 May I ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from
[    ]

By collective I was referring to the idea that God works with
humanity on two levels individually and collectively  If mankind
as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of
mankind

Well I guess hypothetical Adam was the majority of mankind
seeing how he was the ONLY man at the time

then God will allow the consequences of that action to
affect mankind as a whole  If you didnt understand that then I
apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion

I understand what you mean by collective but I think it is an
insane perversion of justice  What sort of judge would punish the
descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor

If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
response send a copy to Jim_Brownozbmdtrwcom  I cant read
aa every day and some posts slip by  Thanks

Well I must admit that you probably read aa more often than I read
the Bible these days  But you missed a couple of good followups to
your post  Im sending you a personal copy of my followup which I
hope you will respond to publically in aa

John
The Sageless

preprocess doc  From: cfairman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Carolyn Jean Fairman)
Subject: Re: *** The list of Biblical contradictions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 26

joslin@pogo.isp.pitt.edu (David Joslin) writes:

>Someone writes:
>>I found a list of Biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit,
>>but now I'd like some help with it.

>I'm curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve.

It's about time.  Why do atheists spend so much time paying attention
to the bible, anyway?

Face it, there are better things to do with your life!  I used to
chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity
of people believing in it as truth, etc.  Why do we spend so little
time on the Mayan religion, or the Native Americans?  Heck, the Native
Americans have signifigantly more interesting myths.  Also, what
about the Egyptians.

I think we pay so much attention to Christianity because we accept
it as a _religion_ and not a mythology, which I find more accurate.


I try to be tolerant.  It gets very hard when someone places a book
under my nose and tells me it's special.  It's not.

Carolyn

after prepro  From cfairmanlelandStanfordEDU Carolyn Jean Fairman
Subject Re  The list of Biblical contradictions
Organization DSG Stanford University CA 94305 USA
Lines 26

joslinpogoisppittedu David Joslin writes

Someone writes
I found a list of Biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit
but now Id like some help with it

Im curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve

Its about time  Why do atheists spend so much time paying attention
to the bible anyway

Face it there are better things to do with your life  I used to
chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity
of people believing in it as truth etc  Why do we spend so little
time on the Mayan religion or the Native Americans  Heck the Native
Americans have signifigantly more interesting myths  Also what
about the Egyptians

I think we pay so much attention to Christianity because we accept
it as a _religion_ and not a mythology which I find more accurate


I try to be tolerant  It gets very hard when someone places a book
under my nose and tells me its special  Its not

Carolyn

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: SIRTF Mission is Still Alive
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 114
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: SIRTF, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993

SIRTF is still very much in business

By Mark Whalen
     In these times of extra-tight NASA budgets, the very
survival of a number of missions has been uncertain. But thanks
to major design refinements implemented in recent months, JPL's
Space Infrared Telescope Facility (SIRTF) -- a major project
considered to be in trouble a couple of years ago -- is "alive
and well," according to Project Scientist Michael Werner.
     A lighter spacecraft, revised orbit and shorter mission have
added up to a less expensive project with "tremendous scientific
power" and a bright future, said Werner.
     Designed as a follow-up to the highly successful Infrared
Astronomical Satellite (IRAS) and Cosmic Background Explorer
(COBE) missions, SIRTF -- a cryogenically cooled observatory for
infrared astronomy from space -- is scheduled for launch in 2000
or 2001 if plans proceed as scheduled.
     IRAS' pioneering work in space-based infrared astronomy 10
years ago allowed astronomers to view the Milky Way as never
before and revealed, among other things, 60,000 galaxies and 25
comets. It provided a sky survey 1,000 times more sensitive than
any previously available from ground-based observations. COBE has
measured the infrared and microwave background radiation on large
angular scales, and revealed new facts about the early universe.
     But to illuminate SIRTF's potential, Jim Evans, JPL's
manager of Astrophysics and Fundamental Physics Pre-Projects,
recently said that the project is "1,000 to 1 million times more
capable than IRAS," based on technological advances in infrared
detector arrays.
     However, despite the enormous strides in infrared
exploration SIRTF promised, and the fact that it was cited as the
highest priority new initiative for all of astronomy in the 1990s
(by the National Academy of Sciences), it took a "diet or die"
directive from NASA Headquarters last year to keep the project
going, according to Werner.
     The project is now known as Atlas SIRTF, based on the key
factor in its new design: The satellite will orbit the sun
instead of the Earth, permitting the use of an Atlas rocket
launch instead of the formerly proposed and heavier Titan. "The
main advantage of the solar orbit is that you can use all of your
launch capability for boosting the payload -- you don't have to
carry up a second rocket to circularize the orbit," Werner said.
The other advantage to a solar orbit, he said, is that "it's in a
better thermal environment, away from the heat of the Earth."
     Additional major changes in SIRTF's redesign include
shortening the mission from five to three years and building a
spacecraft that is less than half as heavy as in the original
plan -- Atlas SIRTF will weigh 2,470 kilograms (5,400 pounds)
compared to Titan SIRTF's 5,500 kilograms (12,100 pounds).
     All of that adds up to "a less stressful launch
environment," Werner said, and a cost savings of more than $200
million for the launch, in addition to increased savings in the
design of the smaller, less massive spacecraft.
     Werner said SIRTF's redesign came as a result of Congress'
telling NASA "you're trying to do too many things. If you want us
to support SIRTF, which is a good project, develop a plan to see
how it fits into (NASA's) overall strategy."
     Shortly thereafter, SIRTF was named as NASA's highest
priority "flagship" scientific mission by the interdisciplinary
Space Sciences Advisory Committee, in addition to the blessing
from the National Academy of Sciences.
     While the spacecraft and its instruments required descoping
to keep the project alive, SIRTF's major scientific contribution
always promised to come about from its advanced infrared detector
arrays, which will allow images to be developed "tens of
thousands of times faster" than before, according to Evans.
     "Up until a couple of years ago," Werner said, "all infrared
astronomy was done with single detectors -- or very small arrays
of individually assembled detectors. Since then, the Department
of Defense has developed a program to produce arrays of tens or
hundreds of thousands of detectors, rather than just a few, and
those are very well suited for use on SIRTF."
     Werner noted that in addition to dealing with budget
pressures, Congress is currently watching NASA projects with an
eye out for any "technological spinoff."
     "On that question, I think we have some things to say," he
said, "because the detectors we're using are straight off various
military developments. Also, SIRTF will be built by the U.S.
aerospace industry, and it's a real technological and engineering
challenge in addition to being a tremendous scientific project.
     "SIRTF will be used by the entire astronomical community,"
Werner added, but the revised three-year mission "puts a premium
on observing time. We have to educate the user community and
develop a program that involves early surveys and quick
turnaround of the data."
     Werner said the downsizing of the project required a
reduction in scope and complexity of SIRTF's three instruments --
the infrared spectrograph, infrared array camera and multiband
imaging photometer. However, these reductions will only result in
losses of efficiency rather than capability, he said.
     The project hopes to start a "Phase B" activity in 1995,
which will provide a detailed concept for development and design.
Building the hardware would begin about two years later.
     Projected cost estimates, Evans said, are $850 million-$950
million.
     "I am very optimistic about SIRTF," he said. "It will
provide a tremendous return for the investment."
     Werner added that an additional benefit from the project
will be the "enrichment of our intellectual and cultural
environment. People on the street are very interested in
astronomy ... black holes, the possibility of life on other
planets, the origin of the universe ... and those are the kind of
questions SIRTF will help answer."
                              ###
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject SIRTF Mission is Still Alive
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 114
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords SIRTF JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993

SIRTF is still very much in business

By Mark Whalen
     In these times of extratight NASA budgets the very
survival of a number of missions has been uncertain But thanks
to major design refinements implemented in recent months JPLs
Space Infrared Telescope Facility SIRTF  a major project
considered to be in trouble a couple of years ago  is alive
and well according to Project Scientist Michael Werner
     A lighter spacecraft revised orbit and shorter mission have
added up to a less expensive project with tremendous scientific
power and a bright future said Werner
     Designed as a followup to the highly successful Infrared
Astronomical Satellite IRAS and Cosmic Background Explorer
COBE missions SIRTF  a cryogenically cooled observatory for
infrared astronomy from space  is scheduled for launch in 2000
or 2001 if plans proceed as scheduled
     IRAS pioneering work in spacebased infrared astronomy 10
years ago allowed astronomers to view the Milky Way as never
before and revealed among other things 60000 galaxies and 25
comets It provided a sky survey 1000 times more sensitive than
any previously available from groundbased observations COBE has
measured the infrared and microwave background radiation on large
angular scales and revealed new facts about the early universe
     But to illuminate SIRTFs potential Jim Evans JPLs
manager of Astrophysics and Fundamental Physics PreProjects
recently said that the project is 1000 to 1 million times more
capable than IRAS based on technological advances in infrared
detector arrays
     However despite the enormous strides in infrared
exploration SIRTF promised and the fact that it was cited as the
highest priority new initiative for all of astronomy in the 1990s
by the National Academy of Sciences it took a diet or die
directive from NASA Headquarters last year to keep the project
going according to Werner
     The project is now known as Atlas SIRTF based on the key
factor in its new design The satellite will orbit the sun
instead of the Earth permitting the use of an Atlas rocket
launch instead of the formerly proposed and heavier Titan The
main advantage of the solar orbit is that you can use all of your
launch capability for boosting the payload  you dont have to
carry up a second rocket to circularize the orbit Werner said
The other advantage to a solar orbit he said is that its in a
better thermal environment away from the heat of the Earth
     Additional major changes in SIRTFs redesign include
shortening the mission from five to three years and building a
spacecraft that is less than half as heavy as in the original
plan  Atlas SIRTF will weigh 2470 kilograms 5400 pounds
compared to Titan SIRTFs 5500 kilograms 12100 pounds
     All of that adds up to a less stressful launch
environment Werner said and a cost savings of more than 200
million for the launch in addition to increased savings in the
design of the smaller less massive spacecraft
     Werner said SIRTFs redesign came as a result of Congress
telling NASA youre trying to do too many things If you want us
to support SIRTF which is a good project develop a plan to see
how it fits into NASAs overall strategy
     Shortly thereafter SIRTF was named as NASAs highest
priority flagship scientific mission by the interdisciplinary
Space Sciences Advisory Committee in addition to the blessing
from the National Academy of Sciences
     While the spacecraft and its instruments required descoping
to keep the project alive SIRTFs major scientific contribution
always promised to come about from its advanced infrared detector
arrays which will allow images to be developed tens of
thousands of times faster than before according to Evans
     Up until a couple of years ago Werner said all infrared
astronomy was done with single detectors  or very small arrays
of individually assembled detectors Since then the Department
of Defense has developed a program to produce arrays of tens or
hundreds of thousands of detectors rather than just a few and
those are very well suited for use on SIRTF
     Werner noted that in addition to dealing with budget
pressures Congress is currently watching NASA projects with an
eye out for any technological spinoff
     On that question I think we have some things to say he
said because the detectors were using are straight off various
military developments Also SIRTF will be built by the US
aerospace industry and its a real technological and engineering
challenge in addition to being a tremendous scientific project
     SIRTF will be used by the entire astronomical community
Werner added but the revised threeyear mission puts a premium
on observing time We have to educate the user community and
develop a program that involves early surveys and quick
turnaround of the data
     Werner said the downsizing of the project required a
reduction in scope and complexity of SIRTFs three instruments 
the infrared spectrograph infrared array camera and multiband
imaging photometer However these reductions will only result in
losses of efficiency rather than capability he said
     The project hopes to start a Phase B activity in 1995
which will provide a detailed concept for development and design
Building the hardware would begin about two years later
     Projected cost estimates Evans said are 850 million950
million
     I am very optimistic about SIRTF he said It will
provide a tremendous return for the investment
     Werner added that an additional benefit from the project
will be the enrichment of our intellectual and cultural
environment People on the street are very interested in
astronomy  black holes the possibility of life on other
planets the origin of the universe  and those are the kind of
questions SIRTF will help answer
                              
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 34

In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

>>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.

>Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
>to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation.  Of
>course, they may be over-optimistic.

In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
range.

>You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
>that would help pay for its development costs.

True it and the contest would result in a much larger market. But I
don't think it would be enough to attract the investors given the
risks involved.

If you could gurantee the SSTO costs and gurantee that it captures
100% of the available launch market, then I think you could
do it.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 34

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists

Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation  Of
course they may be overoptimistic

In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
range

You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs

True it and the contest would result in a much larger market But I
dont think it would be enough to attract the investors given the
risks involved

If you could gurantee the SSTO costs and gurantee that it captures
100 of the available launch market then I think you could
do it

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 38

In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
|> There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
|> marriage.
  ...
|> 
|> Where is the evidence for my opinions?  At the moment, there are just
|> generalities I can cite.  For example, I read that in the 20th century,
|> the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from
|> depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies (probably
|> what I was reading referred particularly to the USA).  Similarly, one
|> can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
|> in this century in Western societies -- particularly with the "sexual
|> revolution" of the 60's, but even before that I think (otherwise the
|> "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible),
|> particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
|> Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage.  I propose
|> that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
|> (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
|> linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former.  I cannot
|> provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
|> seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.
|> 
|>  Fred Rice <-- a Muslim, giving his point of view.
|>  darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

I think this is a big leap sex->depression.  One example is myself,
where no sex->depression :)  But, seriously 1) promiscuity is on a decline,
depression is not and 2) it might be more reasonable to say 
depression->promiscuity.  I think depression is more likely to come
from emotional problems (relationships, family, job, friends) and
promiscuity is used as an escape.
Since I see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an
emotional bond, I don't see a problem with sex before (not outside of)
marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as
what is expected from a married couple.  Of course, this is just 
my opinion.

Brian /-|-\

after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 38

In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
 marriage
  
 
 Where is the evidence for my opinions  At the moment there are just
 generalities I can cite  For example I read that in the 20th century
 the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from
 depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies probably
 what I was reading referred particularly to the USA  Similarly one
 can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
 in this century in Western societies  particularly with the sexual
 revolution of the 60s but even before that I think otherwise the
 sexual revolution of the 60s would not have been possible
 particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
 Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage  I propose
 that these two trends  greater level of general depression in society
 and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity  are
 linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former  I cannot
 provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
 seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it
 
  Fred Rice  a Muslim giving his point of view
  dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

I think this is a big leap sexdepression  One example is myself
where no sexdepression   But seriously 1 promiscuity is on a decline
depression is not and 2 it might be more reasonable to say 
depressionpromiscuity  I think depression is more likely to come
from emotional problems relationships family job friends and
promiscuity is used as an escape
Since I see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an
emotional bond I dont see a problem with sex before not outside of
marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as
what is expected from a married couple  Of course this is just 
my opinion

Brian \

preprocess doc  From: xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Washington Post Article on US-Russian Space Cooperation
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 23

Reported yesterday in the Washington Post (Kathy Sawyer, writer):

The article plays down the Russian role in US space.

Gibbons (science advisor to Clinton) sent Goldin a letter indicating
NASA should not limit redesign options to those compatible with Mir
orbit.

The White House thinks expectations for Russian cooperation have been
raised too high.

The article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits
for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly
impossible.  That's why some think Goldin has begun looking at 
Russian hardware.

Goldin states NASA will present all options to the administration 
which will then have decision making power.

Goldin and the White House have totally ruled out using Energia to
boost the station.
-- 
Chuck Divine

after prepro  From xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Washington Post Article on USRussian Space Cooperation
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 23

Reported yesterday in the Washington Post Kathy Sawyer writer

The article plays down the Russian role in US space

Gibbons science advisor to Clinton sent Goldin a letter indicating
NASA should not limit redesign options to those compatible with Mir
orbit

The White House thinks expectations for Russian cooperation have been
raised too high

The article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits
for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly
impossible  Thats why some think Goldin has begun looking at 
Russian hardware

Goldin states NASA will present all options to the administration 
which will then have decision making power

Goldin and the White House have totally ruled out using Energia to
boost the station
 
Chuck Divine

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1pigidINNsot@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
>
>Not so.  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
>blame the tiger?

	A human has greater control over his/her actions, than a 
predominately instictive tiger.

	A proper analogy would be:

	If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled, do you 
blame that person?

	Yes. [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of 
mind, eg not clinicaly insane, on PCB's, etc. ]

---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world. 

after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

mathew  writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist

Not so  If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger

	A human has greater control over hisher actions than a 
predominately instictive tiger

	A proper analogy would be

	If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled do you 
blame that person

	Yes [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of 
mind eg not clinicaly insane on PCBs etc ]



        One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say Mom because of the love of their mom  It makes for more 
        virile men

        Bobby Mozumder   snm6394ultbiscritedu 
        April 4 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world 

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 34

In <1psg95$ree@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:

[On the issue of 'burning' nuclear wastes using particle beams...]

>How is it ever going to be an Off- the Shelf Technology if someone doesn't
>do it?  Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals. ;-)

>Gee fred.  After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
>for SSF, Id think you would support a minor research program like
>this.

I sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than
everyone else, Pat.  Just a *few* corrections:

1) I never 'defended' 20kHz power, other than as something reasonable
to GO LOOK AT.

2) I have also never opposed a *research project* into feasibility of
the spalling reactor approach to 'cleaning' nuclear waste -- I simply
doubt it could be made to work in the Real World (tm), which ought to
become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility
(sort of like what happened to 20 kHz power -- it proved to have a
down-side that was too expensive to overcome).

I figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault
density for even you, Pat.



-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 34

In 1psg95reeaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes

[On the issue of burning nuclear wastes using particle beams]

How is it ever going to be an Off the Shelf Technology if someone doesnt
do it  Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals 

Gee fred  After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF Id think you would support a minor research program like
this

I sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than
everyone else Pat  Just a few corrections

1 I never defended 20kHz power other than as something reasonable
to GO LOOK AT

2 I have also never opposed a research project into feasibility of
the spalling reactor approach to cleaning nuclear waste  I simply
doubt it could be made to work in the Real World tm which ought to
become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility
sort of like what happened to 20 kHz power  it proved to have a
downside that was too expensive to overcome

I figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault
density for even you Pat



 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: lochem@fys.ruu.nl (Gert-Jan van Lochem)
Subject: Dutch: symposium compacte objecten
Summary: U wordt uitgenodigd voor het symposium compacte objecten 26-4-93
Keywords: compacte objecten, symposium
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Lines: 122

Sterrenkundig symposium 'Compacte Objecten'
                                             op 26 april 1993


In het jaar 1643, zeven jaar na de oprichting van de
Universiteit van Utrecht, benoemde de universiteit haar
eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer. Hiermee ontstond de tweede
universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld. Aert Jansz, de eerste
waarnemer, en zijn opvolgers voerden de Utrechtse sterrenkunde
in de daaropvolgende jaren, decennia en eeuwen naar de
voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek. Dit jaar is het 350
jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond.

De huidige generatie Utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten
sterrenkunde, verenigd in het Sterrekundig Instituut Utrecht,
vieren de benoeming van hun 'oervader' middels een breed scala
aan feestelijke activiteiten. Zo is er voor scholieren een
planetenproject, programmeert de Studium Generale een aantal
voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de Dies
Natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt. Er
staat echter meer op stapel.

Studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde kunnen op 26 april aan een
sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen. De onderwerpen van het
symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het
huidige Utrechtse onderzoek: het onderzoek aan de zogeheten
'compacte objecten', de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren.
Bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de
deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van
de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia. In de
eerste, inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof. Lamers een
beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren,
waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een
half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten
zullen ingaan. Na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot
het stellen van vragen. Het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op
een apart vel.
Het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars
studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde. OOK ANDERE BELANGSTELLENDEN
ZIJN VAN HARTE WELKOM!

Tijdens de lezing van prof. Kuijpers zullen, als alles goed
gaat, de veertien radioteleskopen van de Radiosterrenwacht
Westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen
het heelal, Westerbork en Utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van
een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren, een zogeheten pulsar,
in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren.
Prof. Kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen (elkaar snel
opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling) bespreken en
trachten te verklaren.
Het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de
technische haalbaarheid ervan. De op te vangen signalen zijn
namelijk zo zwak, dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van 10
miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van 30
Watt een seconde te laten branden! Tijdens het symposium zal
er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden: de hedendaagse
technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren.

Deelname aan het symposium kost f 4,- (exclusief lunch) en
f 16,- (inclusief lunch). Inschrijving geschiedt door het
verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op ABN-AMRO rekening
44.46.97.713 t.n.v. stichting 350 JUS. Het gironummer van de
ABN-AMRO bank Utrecht is 2900. Bij de inschrijving dient te
worden aangegeven of men lid is van de NNV. Na inschrijving
wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd. Bij inschrijving na
31 maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren.

Het symposium vindt plaats in Transitorium I,
Universiteit Utrecht.

Voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij
Henrik Spoon, p/a S.R.O.N., Sorbonnelaan 2, 3584 CA Utrecht.
Tel.: 030-535722. E-mail: henriks@sron.ruu.nl.



******* DAGPROGRAMMA **************************************


 9:30   ONTVANGST MET KOFFIE & THEE

10:00   Opening
           Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers (Utrecht)

10:10   Dubbelster evolutie
           Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers

10:25   Radiopulsars
           Prof. dr. J.M.E. Kuijpers (Utrecht)

11:00   Pulsars in dubbelster systemen
           Prof. dr. F. Verbunt (Utrecht)

11:50   Massa & straal van neutronensterren
           Prof. dr. J. van Paradijs (Amsterdam)

12:25   Theorie van accretieschijven
           Drs. R.F. van Oss (Utrecht)

13:00   LUNCH

14:00   Hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit?
           Dr. R.G.M. Rutten (Amsterdam)

14:35   Snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren
        en zwarte gaten
           Dr. M. van der Klis (Amsterdam)

15:10   THEE & KOFFIE

15:30   Zwarte gaten: knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd
           Prof. dr. V. Icke (leiden)

16:05   afsluiting

16:25   BORREL

-- 
Gert-Jan van Lochem	     \\		"What is it?"
Fysische informatica	      \\	"Something blue"
Universiteit Utrecht           \\	"Shapes, I need shapes!"
030-532803			\\			- HHGG -

after prepro  From lochemfysruunl GertJan van Lochem
Subject Dutch symposium compacte objecten
Summary U wordt uitgenodigd voor het symposium compacte objecten 26493
Keywords compacte objecten symposium
Organization Physics Department University of Utrecht The Netherlands
Lines 122

Sterrenkundig symposium Compacte Objecten
                                             op 26 april 1993


In het jaar 1643 zeven jaar na de oprichting van de
Universiteit van Utrecht benoemde de universiteit haar
eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer Hiermee ontstond de tweede
universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld Aert Jansz de eerste
waarnemer en zijn opvolgers voerden de Utrechtse sterrenkunde
in de daaropvolgende jaren decennia en eeuwen naar de
voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek Dit jaar is het 350
jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond

De huidige generatie Utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten
sterrenkunde verenigd in het Sterrekundig Instituut Utrecht
vieren de benoeming van hun oervader middels een breed scala
aan feestelijke activiteiten Zo is er voor scholieren een
planetenproject programmeert de Studium Generale een aantal
voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de Dies
Natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt Er
staat echter meer op stapel

Studenten natuur en sterrenkunde kunnen op 26 april aan een
sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen De onderwerpen van het
symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het
huidige Utrechtse onderzoek het onderzoek aan de zogeheten
compacte objecten de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren
Bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de
deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van
de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia In de
eerste inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof Lamers een
beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren
waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een
half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten
zullen ingaan Na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot
het stellen van vragen Het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op
een apart vel
Het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars
studenten natuur en sterrenkunde OOK ANDERE BELANGSTELLENDEN
ZIJN VAN HARTE WELKOM

Tijdens de lezing van prof Kuijpers zullen als alles goed
gaat de veertien radioteleskopen van de Radiosterrenwacht
Westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen
het heelal Westerbork en Utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van
een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren een zogeheten pulsar
in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren
Prof Kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen elkaar snel
opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling bespreken en
trachten te verklaren
Het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de
technische haalbaarheid ervan De op te vangen signalen zijn
namelijk zo zwak dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van 10
miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van 30
Watt een seconde te laten branden Tijdens het symposium zal
er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden de hedendaagse
technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren

Deelname aan het symposium kost f 4 exclusief lunch en
f 16 inclusief lunch Inschrijving geschiedt door het
verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op ABNAMRO rekening
444697713 tnv stichting 350 JUS Het gironummer van de
ABNAMRO bank Utrecht is 2900 Bij de inschrijving dient te
worden aangegeven of men lid is van de NNV Na inschrijving
wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd Bij inschrijving na
31 maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren

Het symposium vindt plaats in Transitorium I
Universiteit Utrecht

Voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij
Henrik Spoon pa SRON Sorbonnelaan 2 3584 CA Utrecht
Tel 030535722 Email henrikssronruunl



 DAGPROGRAMMA 


 930   ONTVANGST MET KOFFIE  THEE

1000   Opening
           Prof dr HJGLM Lamers Utrecht

1010   Dubbelster evolutie
           Prof dr HJGLM Lamers

1025   Radiopulsars
           Prof dr JME Kuijpers Utrecht

1100   Pulsars in dubbelster systemen
           Prof dr F Verbunt Utrecht

1150   Massa  straal van neutronensterren
           Prof dr J van Paradijs Amsterdam

1225   Theorie van accretieschijven
           Drs RF van Oss Utrecht

1300   LUNCH

1400   Hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit
           Dr RGM Rutten Amsterdam

1435   Snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren
        en zwarte gaten
           Dr M van der Klis Amsterdam

1510   THEE  KOFFIE

1530   Zwarte gaten knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd
           Prof dr V Icke leiden

1605   afsluiting

1625   BORREL

 
GertJan van Lochem	     \\		What is it
Fysische informatica	      \\	Something blue
Universiteit Utrecht           \\	Shapes I need shapes
030532803			\\			 HHGG 

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1993Apr5.171143.828@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:

>God is effectively limited in the same sense.  He is all powerful, but
>He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
>He, Himself is.

	Cannot? Try, will not.

---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world. 


after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Omnipotence was Re Speculations
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1993Apr5171143828batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes

God is effectively limited in the same sense  He is all powerful but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He Himself is

	Cannot Try will not



        One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say Mom because of the love of their mom  It makes for more 
        virile men

        Bobby Mozumder   snm6394ultbiscritedu 
        April 4 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world 


preprocess doc  From: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Subject: *** HELP  I NEED SOME ADDRESSES ***
Originator: jmcocker@c00137-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 21


Hi all,

    I'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies.  Specifically, I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau.  The companies are:

	- AMROC
	- Orbital Sciences Corp. (sp?)
	- Spacehab, Inc.  (I know this one is somewhere in 
		 	   Seattle, WA, or at least part of it is.)
	- Space Industries, Inc.  (Somewhere in Houston)
	- Space Enterprises Inc.

If anybody could point me in the right direction on this, I
would be most appreciative.  I prefer an email response, but I
will post a summary if sufficient interest exists.

Thanks,

Mitch-------------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu

after prepro  From jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Subject  HELP  I NEED SOME ADDRESSES 
Originator jmcockerc00137100lezeosncsuedu
ReplyTo jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Organization North Carolina State University Project Eos
Lines 21


Hi all

    Im trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies  Specifically I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau  The companies are

	 AMROC
	 Orbital Sciences Corp sp
	 Spacehab Inc  I know this one is somewhere in 
		 	   Seattle WA or at least part of it is
	 Space Industries Inc  Somewhere in Houston
	 Space Enterprises Inc

If anybody could point me in the right direction on this I
would be most appreciative  I prefer an email response but I
will post a summary if sufficient interest exists

Thanks

Mitchjmcockereosncsuedu

preprocess doc  From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of 21 Apr 93 08:15:55 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 17

In article <1993Apr21.001555.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
   Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
   Why not??

Because to be any use as a nav point you need to know -exactly- where
it is, which means you either nail it to something that doesn't move
or you watch it all the time.  Neither of which is possible on a
deactivated spacecraft.  Then you have to know exactly how far away
from it you are; this may or may not be possible with the hardware on
board. 

Apart from which, there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons.
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knox's 386 is slick.            Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
   Knox's box is very quick.       Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)

after prepro  From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of 21 Apr 93 081555 GMT
NntpPostingHost leogw
Organization Burdett Buckeridge  Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 17

In article 1993Apr210015551auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
   Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
   Why not

Because to be any use as a nav point you need to know exactly where
it is which means you either nail it to something that doesnt move
or you watch it all the time  Neither of which is possible on a
deactivated spacecraft  Then you have to know exactly how far away
from it you are this may or may not be possible with the hardware on
board 

Apart from which there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons

Gregory Bond  Burdett Buckeridge  Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
   Knoxs 386 is slick            Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
   Knoxs box is very quick       Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin

preprocess doc   uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Lines: 15

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
>cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances.

It can be painless, so it isn't cruel.  And, it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual.

>I don't take issue with the numbers.  A single innocent life taken
>is one too many.

But, innocents die due to many causes.  Why have you singled out
accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with?

keith

after prepro   uunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances

It can be painless so it isnt cruel  And it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual

I dont take issue with the numbers  A single innocent life taken
is one too many

But innocents die due to many causes  Why have you singled out
accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with

keith

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Mars Observer Update - 04/23/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project

                       MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
                             April 23, 1993
                              10:00 AM PDT

Flight Sequence C8 is active, the Spacecraft subsystems and instrument
payload performing well in Array Normal Spin and outer cruise
configuration, with uplink and downlink via the High Gain Antenna; uplink
at 125 bps, downlink at the 2 K Engineering data rate.

As a result of the spacecraft entering Contingency Mode on April 9, all
payload instruments were automatically powered off by on-board fault
protection software.  Gamma Ray Spectrometer Random Access Memory
was successfully reloaded on Monday, April 19.  To prepare for
Magnetometer Calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in Flight
Sequence C9 on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, a reload of Payload
Data System Random Access Memory will take place this morning
beginning at 10:30 AM.

Over this weekend, the Flight Team will send real-time commands to
perform Differential One-Way Ranging to obtain additional data for
analysis by the Navigation Team.  Radio Science Ultra Stable Oscillator
testing will take place on Monday .

The Flight Sequence C9 uplink will occur on Sunday, April 25, with
activation at Midnight, Monday evening April 26.  C9 has been modified to
include Magnetometer Calibrations which could not be performed in C8 due
to Contingency Mode entry on April 9.  These Magnetometer instrument
calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the
spacecraft-generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument.
This information is critical to Martian magnetic field measurements
which occur during approach and mapping phases. MAG Cals will require
the sequence to command the spacecraft out of Array Normal Spin state
and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the MAG team data points
in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations.

Today, the spacecraft is 22,971,250 km (14,273,673 mi.) from Mars
travelling at a velocity of 2.09 kilometers/second (4,677 mph) with
respect to Mars.  One-way light time is approximately 10 minutes, 38
seconds.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Mars Observer Update  042393
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 48
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Mars Observer JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project

                       MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
                             April 23 1993
                              1000 AM PDT

Flight Sequence C8 is active the Spacecraft subsystems and instrument
payload performing well in Array Normal Spin and outer cruise
configuration with uplink and downlink via the High Gain Antenna uplink
at 125 bps downlink at the 2 K Engineering data rate

As a result of the spacecraft entering Contingency Mode on April 9 all
payload instruments were automatically powered off by onboard fault
protection software  Gamma Ray Spectrometer Random Access Memory
was successfully reloaded on Monday April 19  To prepare for
Magnetometer Calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in Flight
Sequence C9 on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week a reload of Payload
Data System Random Access Memory will take place this morning
beginning at 1030 AM

Over this weekend the Flight Team will send realtime commands to
perform Differential OneWay Ranging to obtain additional data for
analysis by the Navigation Team  Radio Science Ultra Stable Oscillator
testing will take place on Monday 

The Flight Sequence C9 uplink will occur on Sunday April 25 with
activation at Midnight Monday evening April 26  C9 has been modified to
include Magnetometer Calibrations which could not be performed in C8 due
to Contingency Mode entry on April 9  These Magnetometer instrument
calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the
spacecraftgenerated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument
This information is critical to Martian magnetic field measurements
which occur during approach and mapping phases MAG Cals will require
the sequence to command the spacecraft out of Array Normal Spin state
and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the MAG team data points
in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations

Today the spacecraft is 22971250 km 14273673 mi from Mars
travelling at a velocity of 209 kilometerssecond 4677 mph with
respect to Mars  Oneway light time is approximately 10 minutes 38
seconds
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17

In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts.  For
>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.  

One consideration to remember is that if you don't turn it off now,
you may not be able to later.  This isn't a case of reaching over and
flipping a switch; much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly
to execute a "turn off" command successfully.  Spacecraft do malfunction
in their old age.  The big concern is not radio clutter from idle
spacecraft, but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can
no longer be turned off.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17

In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts  For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again  

One consideration to remember is that if you dont turn it off now
you may not be able to later  This isnt a case of reaching over and
flipping a switch much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly
to execute a turn off command successfully  Spacecraft do malfunction
in their old age  The big concern is not radio clutter from idle
spacecraft but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can
no longer be turned off
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 162

C.Wainwright (eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk) wrote:
: I
: |> Jim,
: |> 
: |> I always thought that homophobe was only a word used at Act UP
: |> rallies, I didn't beleive real people used it. Let's see if we agree
: |> on the term's definition. A homophobe is one who actively and
: |> militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent
: |> homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation.
: |> Since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a
: |> homophobe (your implication is clear), it must necessarily follow that
: |> all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least.
: |> 
: 
: Crap crap crap crap crap.  A definition of any type of 'phobe comes from
: phobia = an irrational fear of.  Hence a homophobe (not only in ACT UP meetings,
: the word is apparently in general use now.  Or perhaps it isn't in the bible?  
: Wouldst thou prefer if I were to communicate with thou in bilespeak?)
: 
: Does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider?  Does an
: agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space?  Do you
: understand English?
: 
: Obviously someone who has  phobia will react to it.  They will do their best
: to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or
: run away.  Or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes?  People
: who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or
: cause them (or themselves) violence.
: 

Isn't that what I said ...
What are you taking issue with here, your remarks are merely
parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful.

: [...]
: 
: |> It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
: |> (other than limiting population growth) since evolution only occurs
: |> when the members of one generation pass along their traits to
: |> subsequent generations. Homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend. If I
: |> take your usage of the term, homophobe, in the sense you seem to
: |> intend, then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our
: |> species at least, is going nowhere.
: |> 
: 
: So *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children?
: Hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated.  Obviously you keep to the
: Monty Python song:  "Every sperm is sacred".  And if, as *you* say, it has
: a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own 
: arguement, natural.

Consider the context, I'm talking about an evolutionary function. One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context.

: 
: |> Another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to
: |> survive, the participation of both parents is necessary - a family must
: |> exist, since homosexuals do not reproduce, they cannot constitute a
: |> family. Since the majority of humankind is part of a family,
: |> homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation, contrary to nature if you
: |> will.
: |> 
: 
: Well if that is true, by your own arguements homosexuals would have 
: vanished *years* ago due to non-procreation.  Also the parent from single
: parent families should put the babies out in the cold now, cos they must,
: by your arguement, die.

By your argument, homosexuality is genetically determined. As to your
second point, you prove again that you have no idea what context
means. I am talking about evolution, the preservation of the species,
the fundamental premise of the whole process.
: 
: |> But it gets worse. Since the overwhelming majority of people actually
: |> -prefer- a heterosexual relationship, homosexuality is a social
: |> abberation as well. The homosexual eschews the biological imperative
: |> to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in
: |> the most fundamental social element, the family. But wait, there's
: |> more.
: |> 
: 
: Read the above.  I expect you to have at least ten children by now, with
: the family growing.  These days sex is less to do with procreation (admittedly
: without it there would be no-one) but more to do with pleasure.  In pre-pill
: and pre-condom days, if you had sex there was the chance of producing children.
: These days is just ain't true!  People can decide whether or not to have 
: children and when.  Soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's 
: another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision.  Again by
: your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they must
: be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children.  Both are 
: as "unnatural" as each other.

Yet another non-sequitur. Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. That
homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and
nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose.

: 
: |> Since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some
: |> policy makers that they have civil rights, they are now claiming that
: |> their sexuality is a preference, a life-style, an orientation, a
: |> choice that should be protected by law. Now if homosexuality is a mere
: |> choice and if it is both contrary to nature and anti-social, then it
: |> is a perverse choice; they have even less credibility than before they
: |> became prominent. 
: |> 
: 
: People are people are people.  Who are you to tell anyone else how to live
: their life?  Are you god(tm)?  If so, fancy a date?

Here's pretty obvious dodge, do you really think you've said anything
or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement? I am not
telling anyone anything, I am demonstrating that there are arguments
against the practice of homosexuality (providing it's a merely an
alternate lifestlye) that are not homophobic, that one can reasonably
call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand. I realize
of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing  a value,
and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis, but if you
are to be consistent, you have no case in this regard.
: 
: |> To characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to
: |> ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of
: |> the homosexual "life-style". But since the charge is only intended to
: |> intimidate, it's really just demogoguery and not to be taken
: |> seriously. Fact is, Jim, there are far more persuasive arguments for
: |> suppressing homosexuality than those given, but consider this a start.
: |> 
: 
: Again crap.  All your arguments are based on outdated ideals.  Likewise the
: bible.  Would any honest Christian condemn the ten generations spawned by
: a "bastard" to eternal damnation?  Or someone who crushes his penis (either
: accidently or not..!).  Both are in Deuteronomy.

I'm sure your comment pertains to something, but you've disguised it
so well I can't see what. Where did I mention ideals, out-dated or
otherwise? Your arguments are very reactionary; do you have anything
at all to contribute?

: 
: |> As to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in
: |> scouting, the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from
: |> teaching; by their own logic, homosexuals are deviates, social and
: |> biological. Since any adult is a role model for a child, it is
: |> incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from
: |> those who would do the child harm. In this case, harm means primarily
: |> social, though that could be extended easily enough.
: |> 
: |> 
: 
: You show me *anyone* who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as
: normal, and will take of my hat (Puma baseball cap) to you.  "One man's meat
: is another man's poison"!
: 

What has this got to do with anything? Would you pick a single point
that you find offensive and explain your objections, I would really
like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly.

Bill



after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 162

CWainwright eczcawmipsnottacuk wrote
 I
  Jim
  
  I always thought that homophobe was only a word used at Act UP
  rallies I didnt beleive real people used it Lets see if we agree
  on the terms definition A homophobe is one who actively and
  militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent
  homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation
  Since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a
  homophobe your implication is clear it must necessarily follow that
  all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least
  
 
 Crap crap crap crap crap  A definition of any type of phobe comes from
 phobia  an irrational fear of  Hence a homophobe not only in ACT UP meetings
 the word is apparently in general use now  Or perhaps it isnt in the bible  
 Wouldst thou prefer if I were to communicate with thou in bilespeak
 
 Does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider  Does an
 agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space  Do you
 understand English
 
 Obviously someone who has  phobia will react to it  They will do their best
 to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or
 run away  Or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes  People
 who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or
 cause them or themselves violence
 

Isnt that what I said 
What are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely
parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful

 []
 
  It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
  other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs
  when the members of one generation pass along their traits to
  subsequent generations Homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend If I
  take your usage of the term homophobe in the sense you seem to
  intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our
  species at least is going nowhere
  
 
 So every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children
 Hmmno wonder the world is overpopulated  Obviously you keep to the
 Monty Python song  Every sperm is sacred  And if as you say it has
 a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own 
 arguement natural

Consider the context Im talking about an evolutionary function One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate those who dont have no purpose in that context

 
  Another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to
  survive the participation of both parents is necessary  a family must
  exist since homosexuals do not reproduce they cannot constitute a
  family Since the majority of humankind is part of a family
  homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation contrary to nature if you
  will
  
 
 Well if that is true by your own arguements homosexuals would have 
 vanished years ago due to nonprocreation  Also the parent from single
 parent families should put the babies out in the cold now cos they must
 by your arguement die

By your argument homosexuality is genetically determined As to your
second point you prove again that you have no idea what context
means I am talking about evolution the preservation of the species
the fundamental premise of the whole process
 
  But it gets worse Since the overwhelming majority of people actually
  prefer a heterosexual relationship homosexuality is a social
  abberation as well The homosexual eschews the biological imperative
  to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in
  the most fundamental social element the family But wait theres
  more
  
 
 Read the above  I expect you to have at least ten children by now with
 the family growing  These days sex is less to do with procreation admittedly
 without it there would be noone but more to do with pleasure  In prepill
 and precondom days if you had sex there was the chance of producing children
 These days is just aint true  People can decide whether or not to have 
 children and when  Soon they will be able to choose its sex c but thats 
 another arguement so its more of a lifestyle decision  Again by
 your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must
 be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children  Both are 
 as unnatural as each other

Yet another nonsequitur Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental That
homosexuals dont procreate means that sex is only recreation and
nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose

 
  Since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some
  policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that
  their sexuality is a preference a lifestyle an orientation a
  choice that should be protected by law Now if homosexuality is a mere
  choice and if it is both contrary to nature and antisocial then it
  is a perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they
  became prominent 
  
 
 People are people are people  Who are you to tell anyone else how to live
 their life  Are you godtm  If so fancy a date

Heres pretty obvious dodge do you really think youve said anything
or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement I am not
telling anyone anything I am demonstrating that there are arguments
against the practice of homosexuality providing its a merely an
alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably
call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand I realize
of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing  a value
and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis but if you
are to be consistent you have no case in this regard
 
  To characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to
  ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of
  the homosexual lifestyle But since the charge is only intended to
  intimidate its really just demogoguery and not to be taken
  seriously Fact is Jim there are far more persuasive arguments for
  suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this a start
  
 
 Again crap  All your arguments are based on outdated ideals  Likewise the
 bible  Would any honest Christian condemn the ten generations spawned by
 a bastard to eternal damnation  Or someone who crushes his penis either
 accidently or not  Both are in Deuteronomy

Im sure your comment pertains to something but youve disguised it
so well I cant see what Where did I mention ideals outdated or
otherwise Your arguments are very reactionary do you have anything
at all to contribute

 
  As to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in
  scouting the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from
  teaching by their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and
  biological Since any adult is a role model for a child it is
  incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from
  those who would do the child harm In this case harm means primarily
  social though that could be extended easily enough
  
  
 
 You show me anyone who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as
 normal and will take of my hat Puma baseball cap to you  One mans meat
 is another mans poison
 

What has this got to do with anything Would you pick a single point
that you find offensive and explain your objections I would really
like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly

Bill



preprocess doc  From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com

This (frayed) thread has turned into a patented alt.atheism 5-on-1
ping-pong game, and I don't have any strong disagreement, so I'll try
to stick to the one thing I don't quite follow about the argument:

It seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the Bible
was "enlightened for its times" (i.e. closer to what we would consider
morally good based on our standards and past experience) on the one
hand [I hope this summarizes this argument adequately], and on the
other hand:

In article <1993Apr03.001125.23294@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
}In article <1phpe1INN8g6@dsi.dsinc.com>, perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:

}|> }Disclaimer:  I'm speaking from the Jewish perspective,
}|> }where "the Bible" means what many call the Old Testament,
}|> }and where the interpretation is not necessarily the
}|> }raw text, but instead the court cases, commentaries
}|> }and traditions passed down through Jewish communities.
}|> 
}|> This seems the crux to me: if you judge the Bible according to a long
}|> line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day,
}|> rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact, then of course
}|> it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values.
}
}But if that's how the Bible is actually being used today,
}shouldn't that be how we should judge it?  If most people
}use scissors to cut paper, shouldn't Consumer's Reports
}test scissors for paper-cutting ability, even though
}scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth?

That's possibly a good way to judge the use of the Bible in teaching
Jewish morality today, but it hardly seems fair to claim that this
highly-interpreted version is what was "enlightened for its times".
To (attempt to) extend the analogy, this is like saying that the
original scissor-makers were unusually advanced at paper-cutting for
their times, even though they only ever cut cloth, and had never even
heard of paper.

I'm not arguing that the Bible is "disgusting", though some of the
history depicted in it is, by modern standards.  However, history is
full of similar abuses, and I don't think the Biblical accounts are
worse than their contemporaries--or possibly ours.  On the other hand,
I don't know of any reason to think the history described in the Bible
shows *less* abuse than their contemporaries, or ours.  That complex
and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic
interpretations of that history is interesting, but I still don't
think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it
to attack condemnation of the original history.
-- 
Jim Perry   perry@dsinc.com   Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions.  For a nominal fee, they can be yours.

after prepro  From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom

This frayed thread has turned into a patented altatheism 5on1
pingpong game and I dont have any strong disagreement so Ill try
to stick to the one thing I dont quite follow about the argument

It seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the Bible
was enlightened for its times ie closer to what we would consider
morally good based on our standards and past experience on the one
hand [I hope this summarizes this argument adequately] and on the
other hand

In article 1993Apr0300112523294watsonibmcom stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
In article 1phpe1INN8g6dsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes

 Disclaimer  Im speaking from the Jewish perspective
 where the Bible means what many call the Old Testament
 and where the interpretation is not necessarily the
 raw text but instead the court cases commentaries
 and traditions passed down through Jewish communities
 
 This seems the crux to me if you judge the Bible according to a long
 line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day
 rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact then of course
 it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values

But if thats how the Bible is actually being used today
shouldnt that be how we should judge it  If most people
use scissors to cut paper shouldnt Consumers Reports
test scissors for papercutting ability even though
scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth

Thats possibly a good way to judge the use of the Bible in teaching
Jewish morality today but it hardly seems fair to claim that this
highlyinterpreted version is what was enlightened for its times
To attempt to extend the analogy this is like saying that the
original scissormakers were unusually advanced at papercutting for
their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even
heard of paper

Im not arguing that the Bible is disgusting though some of the
history depicted in it is by modern standards  However history is
full of similar abuses and I dont think the Biblical accounts are
worse than their contemporariesor possibly ours  On the other hand
I dont know of any reason to think the history described in the Bible
shows less abuse than their contemporaries or ours  That complex
and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic
interpretations of that history is interesting but I still dont
think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it
to attack condemnation of the original history
 
Jim Perry   perrydsinccom   Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions  For a nominal fee they can be yours

preprocess doc   zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
 <1993Mar31.230523.13892@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <11705@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> <1pic4lINNrau@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 15

In article <1pic4lINNrau@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
|> 
|> >My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
|> >cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances.
|> 
|> It can be painless, so it isn't cruel.  And, it has occurred frequently
|> since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual.

Koff!  You mean that as long as I put you to sleep first,
I can kill you without being cruel?

This changes everything.

jon.

after prepro   zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re  11705viceICOTEKCOM 1pic4lINNraugapcaltechedu
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 15

In article 1pic4lINNraugapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
 
 My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
 cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances
 
 It can be painless so it isnt cruel  And it has occurred frequently
 since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual

Koff  You mean that as long as I put you to sleep first
I can kill you without being cruel

This changes everything

jon

preprocess doc  From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 63

In article <93110.031905SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
>says:
>>It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
>>that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
>>Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
>>years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
>>levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
>>put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
>>use grad students?
>
>You might be able to _run_ one for that; put it there, hardly.
>
>Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
>be significant commerical activity on the Moon?

Wishful thinking mostly. It's more likely that the Moon will never
be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
grade fusion reactors. Exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch, 
and it's position in the gravity well of Earth coupled with it's heat 
sink capacity could offer some military utility for "high ground" military
weapons systems, but it holds very minute commercial value. If space 
travel becomes cheap enough, it might become a tourist attraction as 
Mt. Everest and the Antarctic have become, but that's a very minor 
activity in the global scope of things.

Luna has an inconvienent gravity field. It's likely too low to prevent
calcium loss, muscle atrophy, and long term genetic drift. Yet it's
too high to do micro-G manufacturing. Space based colonies and factories
that can be spun to any convienent value of G look much better. Luna
has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month, but orbital
sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure. Luna offers
a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials, heatsink,
and shielding. The asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and
heavy elements, and volatile compounds, and many are in less steep gravity
wells so that less delta-v is required to reach them.

We don't use 2/3rds of the Earth now, the seafloors, and we virtually
ignore Antarctica, a whole continent. That's because we don't have to
deal with those conditions in order to make a buck. Luna is a much more
expensive place to visit, or to live and work. I think we'll use the
easier places first. That pushes Lunar development back at least a few
centuries, if not much longer.

Luna's main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio
astronomy observatory, shielded from the noisy Earth. Or as the site
of a laser, particle beam, or linear accelerator weapons system for
defending Earth, or bombarding it as the case may be. The first is
unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument.
The second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good
enough, and the military would really rather see the Earth safe for
conventional warfare again. There's little glory in watching from a
bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges. Little
ultimate profit either.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | 

after prepro  From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 63

In article 93110031905SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon  writes
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
says
Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students

You might be able to _run_ one for that put it there hardly

Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon

Wishful thinking mostly Its more likely that the Moon will never
be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
grade fusion reactors Exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch 
and its position in the gravity well of Earth coupled with its heat 
sink capacity could offer some military utility for high ground military
weapons systems but it holds very minute commercial value If space 
travel becomes cheap enough it might become a tourist attraction as 
Mt Everest and the Antarctic have become but thats a very minor 
activity in the global scope of things

Luna has an inconvienent gravity field Its likely too low to prevent
calcium loss muscle atrophy and long term genetic drift Yet its
too high to do microG manufacturing Space based colonies and factories
that can be spun to any convienent value of G look much better Luna
has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month but orbital
sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure Luna offers
a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials heatsink
and shielding The asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and
heavy elements and volatile compounds and many are in less steep gravity
wells so that less deltav is required to reach them

We dont use 23rds of the Earth now the seafloors and we virtually
ignore Antarctica a whole continent Thats because we dont have to
deal with those conditions in order to make a buck Luna is a much more
expensive place to visit or to live and work I think well use the
easier places first That pushes Lunar development back at least a few
centuries if not much longer

Lunas main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio
astronomy observatory shielded from the noisy Earth Or as the site
of a laser particle beam or linear accelerator weapons system for
defending Earth or bombarding it as the case may be The first is
unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument
The second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good
enough and the military would really rather see the Earth safe for
conventional warfare again Theres little glory in watching from a
bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges Little
ultimate profit either

Gary
 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV              You make it      gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems     we break it      uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way                 Guaranteed       emorykd4ncke4zvgary 
Lawrenceville GA 30244                           

preprocess doc  From: bobc@sed.stel.com (Bob Combs)
Subject: Re: Blow up space station, easy way to do it.
Organization: SED, Stanford Telecom, Reston, VA 22090
Lines: 16

In article <1993Apr5.184527.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>This might a real wierd idea or maybe not..
>
>
>Why musta  space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be
>confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not
>earth, why be limited by earth based ideas??
>
Choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above:
 

1.  Politics
2.  Traditions
3.  Congress
4.  Beauracrats


after prepro  From bobcsedstelcom Bob Combs
Subject Re Blow up space station easy way to do it
Organization SED Stanford Telecom Reston VA 22090
Lines 16

In article 1993Apr51845271auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
This might a real wierd idea or maybe not


Why musta  space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be
confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not
earth why be limited by earth based ideas

Choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above
 

1  Politics
2  Traditions
3  Congress
4  Beauracrats


preprocess doc  From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 34

> > Can these questions be answered for a previous
> > instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?

> Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)
> p(au)          3.424346
> e              0.151899
> i              1.0988
> cap_omega(0) 243.5652
> W(0)         231.1607
> epoch       1977.04110

Thanks for the information!

I assume p is the semi-major axis and e the eccentricity.  The peri-
helion and aphelion are then given by p(1-e) and p(1+e), i.e., about
2.90 and 3.95 AU respectively.  For Jupiter, they are 4.95 and 5.45 AU.
If 1977 was after the temporary capture, this means that the comet
ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 AU to Jupiter's --
which I take to be a rough indication of how far from Jupiter it could
get under Jupiter's influence.

> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
> 
> April  1973     83 jupiter radii
> August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii

Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU.  So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
-- 
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto		"Remember the Golgafrinchans"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com					-- Pete Granger

This article is in the public domain.

after prepro  From msbsqsqcom Mark Brader
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization SoftQuad Inc Toronto Canada
Lines 34

  Can these questions be answered for a previous
  instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting

 Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files
 pau          3424346
 e              0151899
 i              10988
 cap_omega0 2435652
 W0         2311607
 epoch       197704110

Thanks for the information

I assume p is the semimajor axis and e the eccentricity  The peri
helion and aphelion are then given by p1e and p1e ie about
290 and 395 AU respectively  For Jupiter they are 495 and 545 AU
If 1977 was after the temporary capture this means that the comet
ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 AU to Jupiters 
which I take to be a rough indication of how far from Jupiter it could
get under Jupiters influence

 Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
 
 April  1973     83 jupiter radii
 August 1970     3 jupiter radii

Where 1 Jupiter radius  71000 km  44000 mi  00005 AU  So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
 
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto		Remember the Golgafrinchans
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom					 Pete Granger

This article is in the public domain

preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 23

In article <1993Apr10.124753.25195@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:

>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:

>>Well, it seemed slightly incongruous to find the Union Jack flying
>>at City Hall in Belfast. 

>May I ask why?  It's there not because the British want it there (NI
>is just one big expensive problem), it's there because that is
>what the majority of the population of NI want.  Is there some
>problem with that?

The majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps.
There seems quite alot of incentive for the British to have control
of NI, like using the North Channel and Irish Sea as a waste dump (I was
appalled at the dumping I saw in the harbor in Belfast). It is my
understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water --
it'd be quite a problem if NI got its independence from Britain and
then stopped accepting the waste. Are you suggesting that British
industry isn't making profit off the situation as well?


Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 23

In article 1993Apr1012475325195bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes

Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote

Well it seemed slightly incongruous to find the Union Jack flying
at City Hall in Belfast 

May I ask why  Its there not because the British want it there NI
is just one big expensive problem its there because that is
what the majority of the population of NI want  Is there some
problem with that

The majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps
There seems quite alot of incentive for the British to have control
of NI like using the North Channel and Irish Sea as a waste dump I was
appalled at the dumping I saw in the harbor in Belfast It is my
understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water 
itd be quite a problem if NI got its independence from Britain and
then stopped accepting the waste Are you suggesting that British
industry isnt making profit off the situation as well


Gregg

preprocess doc  From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
In-Reply-To: <timmbake.735175045@mcl>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 19

>DATE:   18 Apr 93 23:17:25 GMT
>FROM:   Bake Timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu>
>
>	These Bible-lovers have got to chill out.  If we all could just relax
>and see atheism for what it is, the funny pages could have more material.
>
>	Atheism denies the existence of God.  This is logically bankrupt --
>where is the proof of this nonexistence?  It's a joke.
>
>	So nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously.  Perhaps

Perhaps because you just made it up?

Now put your skateboard away and read the FAQ.  Learn something about atheism
before you get off on these tangents.





after prepro  From Robert Knowles 
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
InReplyTo 
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 19

DATE   18 Apr 93 231725 GMT
FROM   Bake Timmons 

	These Biblelovers have got to chill out  If we all could just relax
and see atheism for what it is the funny pages could have more material

	Atheism denies the existence of God  This is logically bankrupt 
where is the proof of this nonexistence  Its a joke

	So nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously  Perhaps

Perhaps because you just made it up

Now put your skateboard away and read the FAQ  Learn something about atheism
before you get off on these tangents





preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: JPL

In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>     Using a model of Mars Observer, Albee spent several minutes
>describing the project and the spacecraft's features. In answer
>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>a concept." Chahine, who had met Hawking at Caltech about five


Too bad they didn't  give him a tour of the CGRO data?

I think he'd be fascinated by the Gamma ray bursters.  The mind of
hawking might even propose a mechanism.


SO what's a drag free satellite?   coated with WD-40?  carries an
aluminum-gold  set of grateful dead albums?   inquiring minds
want to know?

And why would MO  carry any features for being drag free?  I thought
aero-braking was a possible MO  experimental activity?

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords JPL

In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
     Using a model of Mars Observer Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecrafts features In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept Chahine who had met Hawking at Caltech about five


Too bad they didnt  give him a tour of the CGRO data

I think hed be fascinated by the Gamma ray bursters  The mind of
hawking might even propose a mechanism


SO whats a drag free satellite   coated with WD40  carries an
aluminumgold  set of grateful dead albums   inquiring minds
want to know

And why would MO  carry any features for being drag free  I thought
aerobraking was a possible MO  experimental activity

pat


preprocess doc  From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 33

In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>
>He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
>One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
>existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
>Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
>number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
>is his status at the time the crime was committed. 


I'd have to say that I have a problem with any organization, 
religious or not, where the idea that _simple speech_ such
as this is the basis for a crime.

-jim halat                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          

after prepro  From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 33

In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient 
number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
is his status at the time the crime was committed 


Id have to say that I have a problem with any organization 
religious or not where the idea that _simple speech_ such
as this is the basis for a crime

jim halat                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          
                                                                          

preprocess doc  From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 26


I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population. 
It is rather a ridiculous question in some ways, I know, but my newsreader is
down so I am not getting any new postings for a bit, so I figure I might as
well post something new myself.

Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking.  The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
other, qualitatively.  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
expresses its own selfishness.

Idle thoughts...


Adam

********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper		"Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
*				   who thought themselves good simply because  *
* acooper@macalstr.edu				they had no claws."	       *
********************************************************************************

after prepro  From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization Macalester College
Lines 26


I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population 
It is rather a ridiculous question in some ways I know but my newsreader is
down so I am not getting any new postings for a bit so I figure I might as
well post something new myself

Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking  The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
other qualitatively  But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
expresses its own selfishness

Idle thoughts


Adam


 Adam John Cooper		Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings 
				   who thought themselves good simply because  
 acoopermacalstredu				they had no claws	       


preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: atheist?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 38

In article <ePVk2B3w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
 
(Deletion)
>> In other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and
>> it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods.
>>
>> The concept is useless, and I don't have to introduce new assumptions
>> in order to show that.
>
>Yes I fully agree with that, but is it "I don't believe gods exist", or
>"I believe no gods exist"? As MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
>pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean.
>
 
For me, it is a "I believe no gods exist" and a "I don't believe gods exist".
 
In other words, I think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere
with this world are false or meaningless. In Ontology, one can fairly
conclude that when "A exist" is meaningless A does not exist. Under the
Pragmatic definition of truth, "A exists" is meaningless makes A exist
even logically false.
 
A problem with such statements is that one can't disprove a subjective god
by definition, and there might be cases where a subjective god would even
make sense. The trouble with most god definitions is that they include
some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting
all. Believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others.
 
 
(Deletion)
>
>Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"?
>Can it?
>
 
Honestly, I don't see the problem.
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re atheist
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 38

In article 
Tony Lezard  writes
 
Deletion
 In other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and
 it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods

 The concept is useless and I dont have to introduce new assumptions
 in order to show that

Yes I fully agree with that but is it I dont believe gods exist or
I believe no gods exist As MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean

 
For me it is a I believe no gods exist and a I dont believe gods exist
 
In other words I think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere
with this world are false or meaningless In Ontology one can fairly
conclude that when A exist is meaningless A does not exist Under the
Pragmatic definition of truth A exists is meaningless makes A exist
even logically false
 
A problem with such statements is that one cant disprove a subjective god
by definition and there might be cases where a subjective god would even
make sense The trouble with most god definitions is that they include
some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting
all Believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others
 
 
Deletion

Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief
Can it

 
Honestly I dont see the problem
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain)
Subject: Drag free satellites (was: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL)
Keywords: JPL
Organization: Florida State University Geology Dept.
Lines: 23

In article <1raee7$b8s@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>> In answer
>>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>>a concept." 
>
>SO what's a drag free satellite?   coated with WD-40?

	I am puzzled by the term "concept." Drag free may already have
been flown. It was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would
more accurately respond to motions from the Earth's gravity field and
ignore drag. It was proposed many years ago and involved a ball
floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little
adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them. The ball itself would
then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity
anisotropies, whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously
adjusting its position to compensate for drag.


Joseph Cain		cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu   
cain@fsu.bitnet		scri::cain
(904) 644-4014		FAX (904) 644-4214 or -0098

after prepro  From caingeomagglyfsuedu Joe Cain
Subject Drag free satellites was Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Keywords JPL
Organization Florida State University Geology Dept
Lines 23

In article 1raee7b8saccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
 In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept 

SO whats a drag free satellite   coated with WD40

	I am puzzled by the term concept Drag free may already have
been flown It was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would
more accurately respond to motions from the Earths gravity field and
ignore drag It was proposed many years ago and involved a ball
floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little
adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them The ball itself would
then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity
anisotropies whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously
adjusting its position to compensate for drag


Joseph Cain		caingeomagglyfsuedu   
cainfsubitnet		scricain
904 6444014		FAX 904 6444214 or 0098

preprocess doc  From: jbreed@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Nntp-Posting-Host: doink
Reply-To: jbreed@ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 10

In article <C5ros0.uy@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.

Where does the shadow come from?  There's nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them.  I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
our view of them either.  What am I missing?

	Jim

after prepro  From jbreeddoinkb23bingrcom James B Reed
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
NntpPostingHost doink
ReplyTo jbreedingrcom
Organization Intergraph Electronics
Lines 10

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
 [Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
 shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible

Where does the shadow come from  Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them  I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either  What am I missing

	Jim

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Moonbase race
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 26

From: Gene Wright <gene@theporch.raider.net>

>With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
>by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
>that might just work.

>Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
>Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
>to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!

I'll say!  Imagine that there were a couple groups up there, maybe landing
a few weeks apart.  The year-mark starts coming on for the first group.
Isn't a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential
winner?  "Yeah, that's a shame that Team A's life support gave out
so close to the deadline.  Thanks for the billion."

On the other hand, if Apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks
in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers?

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Moonbase race
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 26

From Gene Wright 

With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work

Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then

Ill say  Imagine that there were a couple groups up there maybe landing
a few weeks apart  The yearmark starts coming on for the first group
Isnt a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential
winner  Yeah thats a shame that Team As life support gave out
so close to the deadline  Thanks for the billion

On the other hand if Apollo cost 25billion for a few days or weeks
in space in 1970 dollars then wont the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 10

dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

> Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
> there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)

Paul-- for the same reason that many other colonies are founded. Why not?

------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael  - dante@shakala.com 
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289

after prepro  From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 10

dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes

 Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
 there at all and why their children would want to stay

Paul for the same reason that many other colonies are founded Why not


Charlie Prael   danteshakalacom 
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289

preprocess doc  From: brody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Adam R. Brody )
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: na
Lines: 14

prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:


>AW&ST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
>May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.

>Does anyone know more about this?  How much, to attend????

>Anyone want to go?

>pat

I got something in the mail from AIAA about it.  Cost is $75.
Speakers include John Pike, Hohn Young, and Ian Pryke.

after prepro  From brodyeosarcnasagov Adam R Brody 
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution na
Lines 14

prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes


AWST  had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th  at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA

Does anyone know more about this  How much to attend

Anyone want to go

pat

I got something in the mail from AIAA about it  Cost is 75
Speakers include John Pike Hohn Young and Ian Pryke

preprocess doc  From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov

> Another legend with the name Vulcan was the planet, much like Earth,
> in the same orbit

There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago (I do not remember its 
name) about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the 
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth. Turns out that that planet 
was the exact mirror image of Earth and all its inhabitants looked like 
the Earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite 
side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they 
would shake hands with the left hand and so on...

 C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV

C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

after prepro  From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 16
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov

 Another legend with the name Vulcan was the planet much like Earth
 in the same orbit

There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago I do not remember its 
name about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the 
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth Turns out that that planet 
was the exact mirror image of Earth and all its inhabitants looked like 
the Earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite 
side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they 
would shake hands with the left hand and so on

 COEGALONLARCNASAGOV

COEgalonlarcnasagov

Claudio Oliveira Egalon

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 31

In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>Level 5?  Out of how many? ...
>
>... Also keep in mind that it was
>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>did the whole process by hand...

I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
software-development process *before* the standdown.  Fred is basically
correct:  no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
care.  But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people.  (He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)

Among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure.
As a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted
on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero.

As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
(None of the experimenters could afford it.)
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Level 5
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 31

In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 
Level 5  Out of how many 

 Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown  they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand

I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown  Fred is basically
correct  no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care  But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people  He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet

Among other things the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major preflight simulations and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an inflight failure
As a result the number of majorsimulation failures could be counted
on one hand and the number of inflight failures was zero

As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
None of the experimenters could afford it
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Article-I.D.: indyvax.1993Apr22.162501.747
Lines: 10

In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget.  I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining
rights.)  Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner.)  So how about this?  Give the winning group
(I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
moratorium on taxes.

Tom Freebairn 

after prepro  From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
ArticleID indyvax1993Apr22162501747
Lines 10

In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget  I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining
rights  Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner  So how about this  Give the winning group
I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
moratorium on taxes

Tom Freebairn 

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Surviving Large Accelerations?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 13

In article <EfpX7WS00Uh7QAoP1S@andrew.cmu.edu> Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>... here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
>fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
>course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?

This sounds a bit high to me.  Still higher accelerations have been endured
*very briefly*, during violent deceleration.  If we're talking sustained
acceleration, I think 30-odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion.

I doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Surviving Large Accelerations
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 13

In article  Amruth Laxman  writes
 heres my question finally  Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable  with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration

This sounds a bit high to me  Still higher accelerations have been endured
very briefly during violent deceleration  If were talking sustained
acceleration I think 30odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion

I doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 102

In article <66020@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
 
>Assuming you are presenting it accurately, I don't see how this argument
>really leads to any firm conclusion.  The material in John (I'm not sure
>exactly what is referred to here, but I'll take for granted the similarity
>to the Matt./Luke "Q" material) IS different; hence, one could have almost
>any relationship between the two, right up to John getting it straight from
>Jesus' mouth.
>
 
No, the argument says John has known Q, ie a codified version of the logia,
and not the original, assuming that there has been one. It has weaknesses,
of course, like that John might have known the original, yet rather referred
to Q in his text, or that the logia were given in a codified version in
the first place.
 
The argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion, but it fits well into
the dating usually given for the gospels.
 
 
>>We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
>>explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
>>their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
>>that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
>
>The version of the "usual theory" I have heard has Matthew and Luke
>independently relying on Mark and "Q".  One would think that if Luke relied
>on Matthew, we wouldn't have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies,
>for one thing.
>
 
Not necessarily, Luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the
version given by Matthew. Improving on Matthew would give a motive, for
instance.
 
As far as I know, the theory that Luke has known Matthew is based on a
statistical analysis of the texts.
 
 
>>As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
>>for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
>
>This is the part that is particularly new to me.  If it were possible that
>you could point me to a reference, I'd be grateful.
>
 
Yep, but it will take another day or so to get the source. I hope your German
is good enough. :-)
 
 
>>>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand.  It was (I think) in the late
>>>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.
>
>>When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
>>putting John after the rest of the three?
>
>Because it closes up the gap between (supposed) writing and the existing
>copy quit a bit.  The further away from the original, the more copies can be
>written, and therefore survival becomes more probable.
>
 
I still do not see how copies from 200 allow to change the dating of John.
 
 
>>That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
>>together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
>
>I'm not really impressed with the "theology" argument.  But I'm really
>pointing this out as an "if".  And as I pointed out earlier, one cannot make
>these arguments about I Peter; I see no reason not to accept it as an
>authentic letter.
>
 
Yes, but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence. The authencity of
many letters is still discussed. It looks as if conclusions about them are not
drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as
well.
 
 
>>One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
>>to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
>
>The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants, which is
>not so bad.
>
 
Well, rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the
big meeting. Not necessarily wrong, but certainly bad.
 
 
>>In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
>>and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.
>
>But the statement of divinity is not in that section, and in any case, it's
>agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark.
 
Yes, but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem.
 
Question: Are there letters not from Paul and predating Mark claiming the
divinity of Jesus?
   Benedikt

after prepro  From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 102

In article 66020mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
 
Assuming you are presenting it accurately I dont see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion  The material in John Im not sure
exactly what is referred to here but Ill take for granted the similarity
to the MattLuke Q material IS different hence one could have almost
any relationship between the two right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus mouth

 
No the argument says John has known Q ie a codified version of the logia
and not the original assuming that there has been one It has weaknesses
of course like that John might have known the original yet rather referred
to Q in his text or that the logia were given in a codified version in
the first place
 
The argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion but it fits well into
the dating usually given for the gospels
 
 
We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark

The version of the usual theory I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and Q  One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew we wouldnt have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies
for one thing

 
Not necessarily Luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the
version given by Matthew Improving on Matthew would give a motive for
instance
 
As far as I know the theory that Luke has known Matthew is based on a
statistical analysis of the texts
 
 
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly

This is the part that is particularly new to me  If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference Id be grateful

 
Yep but it will take another day or so to get the source I hope your German
is good enough 
 
 
Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand  It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200

When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three

Because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing
copy quit a bit  The further away from the original the more copies can be
written and therefore survival becomes more probable

 
I still do not see how copies from 200 allow to change the dating of John
 
 
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument

Im not really impressed with the theology argument  But Im really
pointing this out as an if  And as I pointed out earlier one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter

 
Yes but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence The authencity of
many letters is still discussed It looks as if conclusions about them are not
drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as
well
 
 
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies

The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is
not so bad

 
Well rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the
big meeting Not necessarily wrong but certainly bad
 
 
In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak

But the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case its
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark
 
Yes but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem
 
Question Are there letters not from Paul and predating Mark claiming the
divinity of Jesus
   Benedikt

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 23

In article <1993Apr23.155313.4220@dazixco.ingr.com> jbreed@ingr.com writes:
>|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
>|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
>|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.
>
>Where does the shadow come from?  There's nothing close enough to block
>sunlight from hitting them.  I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
>our view of them either.  What am I missing?

You're assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface
into sunlight.  Not so.  Even on Earth, each pole gets several weeks without
sunlight in mid-winter.  Pluto and Charon have much more extreme axial
tilt and a much longer orbit.  Pluto's north pole, for example, gets over
a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light.

At the moment, we're in luck -- Pluto and Charon are just past their
equinox, when the Sun was just on the horizon at both poles (of each).
If we get probes there soon, only the immediate vicinity of one pole
(on each) will be in long-term shadow.  This will get steadily worse the
longer we wait.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 23

In article 1993Apr231553134220dazixcoingrcom jbreedingrcom writes
 [Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
 shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible

Where does the shadow come from  Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them  I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either  What am I missing

Youre assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface
into sunlight  Not so  Even on Earth each pole gets several weeks without
sunlight in midwinter  Pluto and Charon have much more extreme axial
tilt and a much longer orbit  Plutos north pole for example gets over
a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light

At the moment were in luck  Pluto and Charon are just past their
equinox when the Sun was just on the horizon at both poles of each
If we get probes there soon only the immediate vicinity of one pole
on each will be in longterm shadow  This will get steadily worse the
longer we wait
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 14

In <1993Apr5.191011.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

>Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
>Why do the Martian Landing thing..  Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
>much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).

You missed something.  I think it takes off vertically and is intended
to land the same way.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 14

In 1993Apr51910111auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way
Why do the Martian Landing thing  Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious

You missed something  I think it takes off vertically and is intended
to land the same way

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 88
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: HST
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Ed Campion
Headquarters, Washington, D.C.                             April 23, 1993
(Phone:  202/358-1780)

Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center, Houston
(Phone:  713/483-5111)

RELEASE:  93-76

HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS

	The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS-61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two, if needed.

	The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities, or EVAs, was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training, maneuver times
required using the Shuttle's robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions.

	"Basically what we've done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics, or unknowns, of spacewalks," Mission Director Randy Brinkley said.
"It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real-time situations."

	In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks, officials have determined that changing out the gyros, solar arrays
and the Wide Field/Planetary Camera (WF/PC) and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement (COSTAR) are priority objectives
during the mission.

	"When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks, highest through
lowest priority, and recognizing that the major tasks -- gyros, solar arrays,
WF/PC and COSTAR -- would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk, five EVAs were deemed appropriate," said Milt Heflin, Lead Flight
Director for the mission.

	While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented, the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two, three or four EVAs.

	"We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs,"
Heflin said.  "In planning for all Space Shuttle missions, it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives."

	Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center, called joint integrated
simulations, lasting between 10 and 36 hours.  In addition, many stand alone
underwater training "runs" will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk.

	Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission.  Also, lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS-61 crew in its training techniques.

	Endeavour's June flight and Discovery's July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission.
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center, Houston, and the Marshall Space Flight Center,
Huntsville, Ala.

	Also, the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps, the flight controllers and
trainers.

	Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew, Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures.

	The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990.  At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary.

- end -
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 88
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords HST
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

Ed Campion
Headquarters Washington DC                             April 23 1993
Phone  2023581780

Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center Houston
Phone  7134835111

RELEASE  9376

HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS

	The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope HST has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two if needed

	The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities or EVAs was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training maneuver times
required using the Shuttles robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions

	Basically what weve done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics or unknowns of spacewalks Mission Director Randy Brinkley said
It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to realtime situations

	In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks officials have determined that changing out the gyros solar arrays
and the Wide FieldPlanetary Camera WFPC and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement COSTAR are priority objectives
during the mission

	When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks highest through
lowest priority and recognizing that the major tasks  gyros solar arrays
WFPC and COSTAR  would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk five EVAs were deemed appropriate said Milt Heflin Lead Flight
Director for the mission

	While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two three or four EVAs

	We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs
Heflin said  In planning for all Space Shuttle missions it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives

	Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center called joint integrated
simulations lasting between 10 and 36 hours  In addition many stand alone
underwater training runs will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk

	Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission  Also lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS61 crew in its training techniques

	Endeavours June flight and Discoverys July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center Houston and the Marshall Space Flight Center
Huntsville Ala

	Also the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps the flight controllers and
trainers

	Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures

	The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990  At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary

 end 
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 24
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <C5ut0z.CtG@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r46ofINNdku@gap.caltech.edu> palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer) writes:
>>>orbiting billboard...
>>
>>I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
>>object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
>>velocity.  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
>>you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s.  
>Unfortunately, if you launch this from the US (or are a US citizen),
>you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
>Transportation, and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
>an antisatellite weapon... :-)

Well Henry, we are often reminded how CANADA is not a part of the United States
(yet).  You could have quite a commercial A-SAT, er sky-cleaning service going
in a few years. 

"Toronto SkySweepers:  Clear skies in 48 hours, or your money back."
	   Discount rates available for astro-researchers. 



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 24
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r46ofINNdkugapcaltechedu palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer writes
orbiting billboard

I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity  For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms  
Unfortunately if you launch this from the US or are a US citizen
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon 

Well Henry we are often reminded how CANADA is not a part of the United States
yet  You could have quite a commercial ASAT er skycleaning service going
in a few years 

Toronto SkySweepers  Clear skies in 48 hours or your money back
	   Discount rates available for astroresearchers 



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: ruca@pinkie.saber-si.pt (Rui Sousa)
Subject: Re: Potential World-Bearing Stars?
In-Reply-To: dan@visix.com's message of Mon, 12 Apr 1993 19:52:23 GMT
Lines: 17
Organization: SABER - Sistemas de Informacao, Lda.

In article <C5Dz7C.J0E@visix.com> dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist) writes:


   I'm on a fact-finding mission, trying to find out if there exists a list of
   potentially world-bearing stars within 100 light years of the Sun...
   Is anyone currently working on this sort of thing?  Thanks...

   Dan
   -- 

In principle, any star resembling the Sun (mass, luminosity) might have planets
located in a suitable orbit. There several within 100 ly of the sun. They are
single stars, for double or multiple systems might be troublesome. There's a
list located at ames.arc.nasa.gov somewhere in pub/SPACE. I think it is called
stars.dat. By the way, what kind of project, if I may know?

Rui
-- 
*** Infinity is at hand!                               Rui Sousa
*** If yours is big enough, grab it!                   ruca@saber-si.pt

                All opinions expressed here are strictly my own

after prepro  From rucapinkiesabersipt Rui Sousa
Subject Re Potential WorldBearing Stars
InReplyTo danvisixcoms message of Mon 12 Apr 1993 195223 GMT
Lines 17
Organization SABER  Sistemas de Informacao Lda

In article  danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist writes


   Im on a factfinding mission trying to find out if there exists a list of
   potentially worldbearing stars within 100 light years of the Sun
   Is anyone currently working on this sort of thing  Thanks

   Dan
    

In principle any star resembling the Sun mass luminosity might have planets
located in a suitable orbit There several within 100 ly of the sun They are
single stars for double or multiple systems might be troublesome Theres a
list located at amesarcnasagov somewhere in pubSPACE I think it is called
starsdat By the way what kind of project if I may know

Rui
 
 Infinity is at hand                               Rui Sousa
 If yours is big enough grab it                   rucasabersipt

                All opinions expressed here are strictly my own

preprocess doc  From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 32

In <1pp6reINNonl@phantom.gatech.edu> matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:

>In article <841@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:

>>	Well this pretty much says it.  I have gotten alot of replys to this
>>and it looks like oil is only on Earth.  So if those greedy little oil companys
>>who obviously don't give **** about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us
>>high a dry.

>Greedy little oil companies?  Don't blame them; oil companies just supply the 
>demand created by you, me, and just about everyone else on the planet.  If we
>run out, its all our faults.

He also ignores a few other things.  While organics would become
significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear (and thus
some things would no longer be economically feasible), oil is hardly
an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables.  As
supply decreases, prices rise and alternatives become more
competetive.  He also needs to consider that there has been an
estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared
about petroleum; whatever the current usage rate is, we always seem to
have about a 30 year reserve that we know about.

[I'm not sure that last figure is still true -- we tend not to look as
hard when prices are comparatively cheap -- but it was certainly true
during hte 'oil crisis' days of the 70's.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

after prepro  From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 32

In 1pp6reINNonlphantomgatechedu matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes

In article 841rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes

	Well this pretty much says it  I have gotten alot of replys to this
and it looks like oil is only on Earth  So if those greedy little oil companys
who obviously dont give  about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us
high a dry

Greedy little oil companies  Dont blame them oil companies just supply the 
demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet  If we
run out its all our faults

He also ignores a few other things  While organics would become
significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear and thus
some things would no longer be economically feasible oil is hardly
an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables  As
supply decreases prices rise and alternatives become more
competetive  He also needs to consider that there has been an
estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared
about petroleum whatever the current usage rate is we always seem to
have about a 30 year reserve that we know about

[Im not sure that last figure is still true  we tend not to look as
hard when prices are comparatively cheap  but it was certainly true
during hte oil crisis days of the 70s]

 
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
 in the real world    Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden

FredMcCalldsegticom  I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: He has risen!
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu



	Our Lord and Savior David Keresh has risen!


	He has been seen alive!


	Spread the word!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
		
		"My sole intention was learning to fly."

after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject He has risen
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu



	Our Lord and Savior David Keresh has risen


	He has been seen alive


	Spread the word





		
		My sole intention was learning to fly

preprocess doc  From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 25

Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first.  They could have beaten us if either:

* Their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back,

and/or

* A Saturn V went boom.

If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon).  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go.  Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars (at least in the short run).  Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon.


/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	| 
| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the 	|
| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."    		|
|                  <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> 		|

after prepro  From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 25

Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first  They could have beaten us if either

 Their rocket hadnt blown up on the pad thus setting them back

andor

 A Saturn V went boom

If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon  Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go  Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run  Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving	 
 the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the 	
 Moon and returning him safely to the Earth    		
                   		

preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
	<1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp>
	<1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu>
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 53
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 20 Apr 93 20:48:38 GMT

In article <1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

   In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:

    > be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
    > materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
    > and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
    > grade fusion reactors.

   problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
   reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
   small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some

   This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
   as a source of titanium for use on earth.  As I recall, Wingo wasn't
 ...
   even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
   at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
   basalts.  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
   could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
   ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
   mined today).

Why Paul, it's obvious.
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing).
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance 

:-) :-) :-) 


(oops, this is sci.space... wrong rules of debate ;-)


Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use... as to why Lunar natives are cost effective, 
analysis has shown they will be critical in providing
a sheltered manufacturing base, technological innovation,
critical materials and manpower in the war between
the Allies and Central Powers in about two hundred years...

;-)

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|

after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
	1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp
	1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 53
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto dietzcsrochesteredus message of 20 Apr 93 204838 GMT

In article 1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes

   In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman writes

     be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
     materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
     and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
     grade fusion reactors

   problem with 3He aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
   reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
   small  on the order of 5 ppb or so on average more in some

   This thread reminds me of Wingos claims some time ago about the moon
   as a source of titanium for use on earth  As I recall Wingo wasnt
 
   even 1 of the basalts are 5 TiO2 this is trillions of tons of TiO2
   at concentrations only a factor of 23 less than in lunar highTi
   basalts  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
   could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
   ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being
   mined today

Why Paul its obvious
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will
sharply increase we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance 

   


oops this is scispace wrong rules of debate 


Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use as to why Lunar natives are cost effective 
analysis has shown they will be critical in providing
a sheltered manufacturing base technological innovation
critical materials and manpower in the war between
the Allies and Central Powers in about two hundred years



  Steinn Sigurdsson	I saw two shooting stars last night		
  Lick Observatory	I wished on them but they were only satellites	
 steinlylickucscedu Is it wrong to wish on space hardware		
 standard disclaimer	I wish I wish I wish youd care  BB 1983	

preprocess doc  From: baez@guitar.ucr.edu (john baez)
Subject: End of the Space Age
Article-I.D.: galaxy.29034
Organization: University of California, Riverside
Lines: 82
Nntp-Posting-Host: guitar.ucr.edu

There is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of today's
LA Times (Thursday April 15, 1993, p. D1).  I thought I'd post it to
stir up some flame wars - I mean reasoned debate.  Let me preface it by
saying that I largely agree that the "Space Age" in the romantic sense
of several decades ago is over, and that projects like the space station
miss the point at this time.  Reading, for example, "What's New" -
the weekly physics update we get here on the net - it's clear that the
romance of the day lies in the ever more fine-grained manipulation of
matter: by which I include biotechnology, condensed matter physics (with
its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere), and the amazing things
people are doing with individual atoms these days.  To a large extent, I
think, the romance some people still have with space is a matter of
nostalgia.  I feel sure that someday we - or more precisely, our "mind
children" - will spread across space (unless we wipe ourselves out); but
I think that *manned* space exploration is not what is exciting about
what we can do *now*.   

Anyway, let me quote some of this article, but not all...


SPACE AGE GLORY FADES FROM VIEW

Micheal Schrage (writer, consultant, and research associate at MIT)

At 35, America's Space Age won't have to suffer through the angst of a
midlife crisis.

The reason is that the Space Age is already dead.  The technologies no
longer define our times, and the public has grown weary of the multibillion
-dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic
rewards.  

Space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of America's science
and technology debate into a peripheral issue.  Speace is not a
meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate, our
technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion
policy.  

To be sure, America should continue to invest in satellite technologies
for telecommunications and remote sensing - cheap deep-space probes
would be nice too - but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of
scientific and industrial innovation is now dead.

.....

Before the change in administrations, it would have been foolish to
write an obituary for the Space Age.  The Bush White House aggressively
supported the space program and proposed spending well over $30 billion
to build space station Freedom alone.

Even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains,
Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman was an outspoken
public champion of big-ticket space expenditures.  The reality that much
of the civilian space program - from the shuttle to the Hubble telescope
to the space station - was poorly conceived and unimpressively
implemented did not seem to matter much.

Political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism - not a coherent
vision or cost-effective sensibilities - determined multibillion-dollar
space budgets.

Indeed, with few notable exceptions, such as Voyager, the post-Apollo
era is the story of the gold-plated porkification of space exploration
with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more.  

......

While the Clinton Administration has kept on the highly regarded Daniel
Goldin as administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, it seems clear that space exploration is not being
positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of America's
technological prowess.  The space station budget has - rightly - been
slashed.  Space is virtually ignored when the Administration champions
its competitiveness agenda.

......

"I wish this had happened 10 years ago instead of starting to happen
now," says Bruce Murray, a Caltech professor who ran NASA's Jet
Propulsion Lab in Pasadena.  "We've put off a lot of things we shouldn't
have.... I would rather see a $10-billion NASA doing well than a
$40-billion one filled with white elephants."

after prepro  From baezguitarucredu john baez
Subject End of the Space Age
ArticleID galaxy29034
Organization University of California Riverside
Lines 82
NntpPostingHost guitarucredu

There is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of todays
LA Times Thursday April 15 1993 p D1  I thought Id post it to
stir up some flame wars  I mean reasoned debate  Let me preface it by
saying that I largely agree that the Space Age in the romantic sense
of several decades ago is over and that projects like the space station
miss the point at this time  Reading for example Whats New 
the weekly physics update we get here on the net  its clear that the
romance of the day lies in the ever more finegrained manipulation of
matter by which I include biotechnology condensed matter physics with
its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere and the amazing things
people are doing with individual atoms these days  To a large extent I
think the romance some people still have with space is a matter of
nostalgia  I feel sure that someday we  or more precisely our mind
children  will spread across space unless we wipe ourselves out but
I think that manned space exploration is not what is exciting about
what we can do now   

Anyway let me quote some of this article but not all


SPACE AGE GLORY FADES FROM VIEW

Micheal Schrage writer consultant and research associate at MIT

At 35 Americas Space Age wont have to suffer through the angst of a
midlife crisis

The reason is that the Space Age is already dead  The technologies no
longer define our times and the public has grown weary of the multibillion
dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic
rewards  

Space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of Americas science
and technology debate into a peripheral issue  Speace is not a
meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate our
technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion
policy  

To be sure America should continue to invest in satellite technologies
for telecommunications and remote sensing  cheap deepspace probes
would be nice too  but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of
scientific and industrial innovation is now dead



Before the change in administrations it would have been foolish to
write an obituary for the Space Age  The Bush White House aggressively
supported the space program and proposed spending well over 30 billion
to build space station Freedom alone

Even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains
Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman was an outspoken
public champion of bigticket space expenditures  The reality that much
of the civilian space program  from the shuttle to the Hubble telescope
to the space station  was poorly conceived and unimpressively
implemented did not seem to matter much

Political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism  not a coherent
vision or costeffective sensibilities  determined multibilliondollar
space budgets

Indeed with few notable exceptions such as Voyager the postApollo
era is the story of the goldplated porkification of space exploration
with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more  



While the Clinton Administration has kept on the highly regarded Daniel
Goldin as administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration it seems clear that space exploration is not being
positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of Americas
technological prowess  The space station budget has  rightly  been
slashed  Space is virtually ignored when the Administration champions
its competitiveness agenda



I wish this had happened 10 years ago instead of starting to happen
now says Bruce Murray a Caltech professor who ran NASAs Jet
Propulsion Lab in Pasadena  Weve put off a lot of things we shouldnt
have I would rather see a 10billion NASA doing well than a
40billion one filled with white elephants

preprocess doc  From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 41

In article <843@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:

>> The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
>> built is that there isn't any reason to do so.  Natural uranium is
>> still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
>> technically reasonable.
>>
>
>	November/December, 1987 page 21 - "Science and Technology in Japan".
>			Seawater Uranium Recovery Experiment
>	"The ground uranium reserves are estimated at about 3.6 million tons,
> and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the
> end of the 20th century.  In Japan, a resources poor country, technological
> development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in
> seawater.  The total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated
> to be about 4.6 billion tons, a huge amount when compared with ground uranium
> reserves......."


I hate to pour cold water on this, but currently seawater extracted
uranium, even using the new, improved fiber absorbers from Japan, is
about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market.
Uranium is *very* cheap right now, around $10/lb.  Right now, there
are mines closing because they can't compete with places like Cigar
Lake in Canada (where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards
to the mines, who work in shielded vehicles).  Plenty of other sources
(for example, uranium from phosphate processing) would come on line before
uranium reached $200/lb.

"Demand and supply balance will collapse" is nonsense.  Supply and
demand always balance; what changes is the price.  Is uranium going
to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century?
Not bloody likely.  New nuclear reactors are not being built
at a sufficient rate.

Uranium from seawater is interesting, but it's a long term project, or
a project that the Japanese might justify on grounds of
self-sufficiency.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

after prepro  From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 41

In article 843rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes

 The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
 built is that there isnt any reason to do so  Natural uranium is
 still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
 technically reasonable


	NovemberDecember 1987 page 21  Science and Technology in Japan
			Seawater Uranium Recovery Experiment
	The ground uranium reserves are estimated at about 36 million tons
 and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the
 end of the 20th century  In Japan a resources poor country technological
 development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in
 seawater  The total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated
 to be about 46 billion tons a huge amount when compared with ground uranium
 reserves


I hate to pour cold water on this but currently seawater extracted
uranium even using the new improved fiber absorbers from Japan is
about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market
Uranium is very cheap right now around 10lb  Right now there
are mines closing because they cant compete with places like Cigar
Lake in Canada where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards
to the mines who work in shielded vehicles  Plenty of other sources
for example uranium from phosphate processing would come on line before
uranium reached 200lb

Demand and supply balance will collapse is nonsense  Supply and
demand always balance what changes is the price  Is uranium going
to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century
Not bloody likely  New nuclear reactors are not being built
at a sufficient rate

Uranium from seawater is interesting but its a long term project or
a project that the Japanese might justify on grounds of
selfsufficiency

	Paul F Dietz
	dietzcsrochesteredu

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 44
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>>But, you don't know that capital punishment is wrong, so it isn't the same
>>as shooting.  A better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car,
>>realizing that sooner or later, someone is going to be killed in an automobile
>>accident.  You *know* people get killed as a result of driving, yet you
>>continue to do it anyway.
>Uh uh.  You do not know that you will be the one to do the
>killing.  I'm not sure I'd drive a car if I had sufficient evidence to
>conclude that I would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime.

Yes, and everyone thinks as you do.  No one thinks that he is going to cause
or be involved in a fatal accident, but the likelihood is surprisingly high.
Just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting
blanks does not mean that you are less guilty.

>I don't know about Jon, but I say *ALL* taking of human life is
>murder.  And I say murder is wrong in all but one situation:  when
>it is the only action that will prevent another murder, either of
>myself or another.

You mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation?  And, you should
note that that situation will never occur.  There are always other options
thank killing.  Why don't you just say that all killing is wrong.  This
is basically what you are saying.

>I'm getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments.

Are you attempting to be condescending?

>That the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to
>the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection.  Is your
>personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach?
>You sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many
>outweighing the needs of the few, so fuck the few.

But, most people have found the risk to be acceptable.  You are probably
much more likely to die in a plane crash, or even using an electric
blender, than you are to be executed as an innocent.  I personally think
that the risk is acceptable, but in an ideal moral system, no such risk
is acceptable.  "Acceptable" is the fudge factor necessary in such an
approximation to the ideal.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re But you dont know that capital punishment is wrong so it isnt the same
as shooting  A better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car
realizing that sooner or later someone is going to be killed in an automobile
accident  You know people get killed as a result of driving yet you
continue to do it anyway
Uh uh  You do not know that you will be the one to do the
killing  Im not sure Id drive a car if I had sufficient evidence to
conclude that I would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime

Yes and everyone thinks as you do  No one thinks that he is going to cause
or be involved in a fatal accident but the likelihood is surprisingly high
Just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting
blanks does not mean that you are less guilty

I dont know about Jon but I say ALL taking of human life is
murder  And I say murder is wrong in all but one situation  when
it is the only action that will prevent another murder either of
myself or another

You mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation  And you should
note that that situation will never occur  There are always other options
thank killing  Why dont you just say that all killing is wrong  This
is basically what you are saying

Im getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments

Are you attempting to be condescending

That the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to
the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection  Is your
personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach
You sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many
outweighing the needs of the few so fuck the few

But most people have found the risk to be acceptable  You are probably
much more likely to die in a plane crash or even using an electric
blender than you are to be executed as an innocent  I personally think
that the risk is acceptable but in an ideal moral system no such risk
is acceptable  Acceptable is the fudge factor necessary in such an
approximation to the ideal

keith

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21

> O.K., so pick former Yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused
> by communism, it doesn't really matter.  But I guess religious leaders are
> calling for an end to that, too, so it can't be religiously motivated.  This
> despite the fact that the Christians carve crosses in dead Muslims chests.
> Maybe they just want land.  Maybe its something else they want.  Maybe the
> cross carvings are just accidental.  I don't know.  Just looks suspicious.

Most likely the tragic situation in Bosnia is a combination of ethnical
and religious motives, where religion is just one attribute that separates
the groups from each other.

But I must agree that the sad saga in Bosnia is a terrible example
of a case where religion is not helping, instead it is used as a weapon
against other humans. And my sympathies are mostly on the Bosnian side,
it looks like the Serbs are the oppressors, willing to use even
Christianity as a weapon against their former friends.

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21

 OK so pick former Yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused
 by communism it doesnt really matter  But I guess religious leaders are
 calling for an end to that too so it cant be religiously motivated  This
 despite the fact that the Christians carve crosses in dead Muslims chests
 Maybe they just want land  Maybe its something else they want  Maybe the
 cross carvings are just accidental  I dont know  Just looks suspicious

Most likely the tragic situation in Bosnia is a combination of ethnical
and religious motives where religion is just one attribute that separates
the groups from each other

But I must agree that the sad saga in Bosnia is a terrible example
of a case where religion is not helping instead it is used as a weapon
against other humans And my sympathies are mostly on the Bosnian side
it looks like the Serbs are the oppressors willing to use even
Christianity as a weapon against their former friends

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr22.164801.7530@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>	Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
>players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
>per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.
>


I don't think so at first,  but solid state offered  better reliabity,
id bet,  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr221648017530julianuwoca jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
	Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems



I dont think so at first  but solid state offered  better reliabity
id bet  and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up

pat


preprocess doc  From: qpliu@ernie.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: ernie.princeton.edu
Reply-To: qpliu@princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 34

In article <1993Apr5.091139.823@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <16BA5DA01.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>, I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>> But could you give a definition of free will? Especially in the
>> presence of an omniscient being?

>"Will" is "self-determination".  In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God.  All "will", therefore, is "free will".

So these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of
their circumstances (their genetics, their environment, their experiences)
which are not all self-determined?

(Of course, the idea of Hell makes the idea of "free will" dubious.
On the other hand, the idea of Hell is not a very powerful idea.

	"A Parable for You

	"There was once our main character who blah blah blah.
	"One day, a thug pointed a mean looking gun at OMC, and
said, 'Do what I say, or I'm blasting you to hell.'
	"OMC thought, 'If I believe this thug, and follow the
instructions that will be given, I'll avoid getting blasted to
hell.  On the other hand, if I believe this thug, and do not
follow the instructions that will be given, I'll get blasted to
hell.  Hmm... the more attractive choice is obvious, I'll
follow the instructions.'  Now, OMC found the choice obvious
because everything OMC had learned about getting blasted to
hell made it appear very undesirable.
	"But then OMC noticed that the thug's gun wasn't a real
gun.  The thug's threats were make believe.
	"So OMC ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah.")
-- 
qpliu@princeton.edu           Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.

after prepro  From qpliuerniePrincetonEDU qpliu
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost ernieprincetonedu
ReplyTo qpliuprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 34

In article 1993Apr5091139823batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 16BA5DA01I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
 But could you give a definition of free will Especially in the
 presence of an omniscient being

Will is selfdetermination  In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God  All will therefore is free will

So these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of
their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences
which are not all selfdetermined

Of course the idea of Hell makes the idea of free will dubious
On the other hand the idea of Hell is not a very powerful idea

	A Parable for You

	There was once our main character who blah blah blah
	One day a thug pointed a mean looking gun at OMC and
said Do what I say or Im blasting you to hell
	OMC thought If I believe this thug and follow the
instructions that will be given Ill avoid getting blasted to
hell  On the other hand if I believe this thug and do not
follow the instructions that will be given Ill get blasted to
hell  Hmm the more attractive choice is obvious Ill
follow the instructions  Now OMC found the choice obvious
because everything OMC had learned about getting blasted to
hell made it appear very undesirable
	But then OMC noticed that the thugs gun wasnt a real
gun  The thugs threats were make believe
	So OMC ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah
 
qpliuprincetonedu           Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated

preprocess doc  From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 12

With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints 
by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about 
that might just work.

Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation 
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year. 
Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!

--
  gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

after prepro  From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 12

With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints 
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about 
that might just work

Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation 
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year 
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin 
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then


  genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr21.001555.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
Why not?? If you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion
beacon, to take a directional plot on??

Wierd or what?
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
ArticleID aurora1993Apr210015551
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 8
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
Why not If you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion
beacon to take a directional plot on

Wierd or what

Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: There must be a creator! (Maybe)
From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 24

In article <16BA1E927.DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU>, DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter) writes:
>
>   Science is wonderful at answering most of our questions.  I'm not the type
>to question scientific findings very often, but...  Personally, I find the
>theory of evolution to be unfathomable.  Could humans, a highly evolved,
>complex organism that thinks, learns, and develops truly be an organism
>that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection?

[...stuff deleted...]

Computers are an excellent example...of evolution without "a" creator.
We did not "create" computers.  We did not create the sand that goes
into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into
processor board.  We took these things and put them together in an
interesting way. Just like plants "create" oxygen using light through 
photosynthesis.  It's a much bigger leap to talk about something that
created "everything" from nothing.  I find it unfathomable to resort
to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists: we
simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings -- if there even
were beginnings at all.  And that's ok with me.  The present keeps me
perfectly busy.

-jim halat


after prepro  Subject Re There must be a creator Maybe
From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 24

In article 16BA1E927DRPORTERSUVMSYREDU DRPORTERSUVMSYREDU Brad Porter writes

   Science is wonderful at answering most of our questions  Im not the type
to question scientific findings very often but  Personally I find the
theory of evolution to be unfathomable  Could humans a highly evolved
complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly be an organism
that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection

[stuff deleted]

Computers are an excellent exampleof evolution without a creator
We did not create computers  We did not create the sand that goes
into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into
processor board  We took these things and put them together in an
interesting way Just like plants create oxygen using light through 
photosynthesis  Its a much bigger leap to talk about something that
created everything from nothing  I find it unfathomable to resort
to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists we
simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings  if there even
were beginnings at all  And thats ok with me  The present keeps me
perfectly busy

jim halat


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 45
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr6.125608.7506@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|In <1993Apr2.150038.2521@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
|>>
|>>Paul, quite frankly I'll believe that this is really going to work on
|>>the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
|>>tons in one end and get (relatively) clean material out the other end,
|>>plus be able to run it off its own residual power.  Sounds almost like
|>>perpetual motion, doesn't it?
|
|I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
|technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the
|trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
|separating things first and having a different 'run' for each
|actinide) when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
|(relatively) clean material out the other.  Once the costs,
|technological risks, etc., are taken into account I still class this
|one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun.  Sure, it's possible
|and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable
|approach? 
|

How is it ever going to be an Off- the Shelf Technology if someone doesn't
do it?  Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals. ;-)

Gee fred.  After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF, Id think you would support a minor research program like this.

And does anyone who knows more Particle physics then me,  know if the IPNS
could Prove this technology?

|
|>The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
|>built is that there isn't any reason to do so.  Natural uranium is
|>still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
|>technically reasonable.
|

It may also help there is political gridlock on the entire
nuclear technical agenda.  There were big political opponenents to
Fast Breeder Technologies.  WIPP is being fought to death in Courts.
Even if you could make a nuclear incinerator, do you really think
even Deaf SMith County Nevada would accept it?  NIMBY'ism rules
nuclear power concerns.  Only the medical community has been
able to overrule  nuclear  technology opposition. 


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 45
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr61256087506mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
In 1993Apr21500382521csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes

Paul quite frankly Ill believe that this is really going to work on
the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end
plus be able to run it off its own residual power  Sounds almost like
perpetual motion doesnt it

I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different run for each
actinide when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
relatively clean material out the other  Once the costs
technological risks etc are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun  Sure its possible
and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable
approach 


How is it ever going to be an Off the Shelf Technology if someone doesnt
do it  Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals 

Gee fred  After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF Id think you would support a minor research program like this

And does anyone who knows more Particle physics then me  know if the IPNS
could Prove this technology


The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
built is that there isnt any reason to do so  Natural uranium is
still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
technically reasonable


It may also help there is political gridlock on the entire
nuclear technical agenda  There were big political opponenents to
Fast Breeder Technologies  WIPP is being fought to death in Courts
Even if you could make a nuclear incinerator do you really think
even Deaf SMith County Nevada would accept it  NIMBYism rules
nuclear power concerns  Only the medical community has been
able to overrule  nuclear  technology opposition 


preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
|
|>Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)
|
>Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!

Let it never be said that an opportunity was missed to put someone down.



after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method 

Sherzer Methodology

Let it never be said that an opportunity was missed to put someone down



preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: The Area Rule
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



I am sure  Mary or Henry can describe this more aptly then me.
But here is how i understand it.

At Speed,  Near supersonic.  The wind behaves like a fluid pipe.
It becomes incompressible.  So wind has to bend away from the
wing edges.   AS the wing thickens,  the more the pipes bend.

If they have no place to go,  they begin to stall,  and force
compression, stealing power from the vehicle (High Drag).

If you squeeze the fuselage,  so that these pipes  have aplace to bend
into,  then drag is reduced.   

Essentially,  teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf
remain constant for all areas of the fuselage.  That is where the wings are
subtract, teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re The Area Rule
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
Distribution sci
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



I am sure  Mary or Henry can describe this more aptly then me
But here is how i understand it

At Speed  Near supersonic  The wind behaves like a fluid pipe
It becomes incompressible  So wind has to bend away from the
wing edges   AS the wing thickens  the more the pipes bend

If they have no place to go  they begin to stall  and force
compression stealing power from the vehicle High Drag

If you squeeze the fuselage  so that these pipes  have aplace to bend
into  then drag is reduced   

Essentially  teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf
remain constant for all areas of the fuselage  That is where the wings are
subtract teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage

pat

preprocess doc  From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Motorola
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 31

In article <1r54to$oh@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>The question i have about the proton, is  could it be  handled at
>one of KSC's spare pads, without major  malfunction,  or could it be
>handled at kourou  or Vandenberg?   

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to. Its probably better to   
invest in newer launch systems. I don't think a big cost advantage
for using Russian systems will last for very long (maybe a few years). 
Lockheed would be the place to ask, since you would probably have to buy 
the Proton from them (they market the Proton world wide except Russia). 
They should know a lot about the possibilities, I haven't heard them
propose US launches, so I assume they looked into it and found it 
unprofitable. 

>Now if it uses storables,  

Yes...

>then  how long would it take for the russians
>to equip something at cape york?

Comparable to the Zenit I suppose, but since it looks like
nothing will be built there, you might just as well pick any
spot.

The message is: to launch now while its cheap and while Russia and
Kazakstan are still cooperating. Later, the story may be different.

Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL

after prepro  From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Motorola
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 31

In article 1r54toohaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The question i have about the proton is  could it be  handled at
one of KSCs spare pads without major  malfunction  or could it be
handled at kourou  or Vandenberg   

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to Its probably better to   
invest in newer launch systems I dont think a big cost advantage
for using Russian systems will last for very long maybe a few years 
Lockheed would be the place to ask since you would probably have to buy 
the Proton from them they market the Proton world wide except Russia 
They should know a lot about the possibilities I havent heard them
propose US launches so I assume they looked into it and found it 
unprofitable 

Now if it uses storables  

Yes

then  how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york

Comparable to the Zenit I suppose but since it looks like
nothing will be built there you might just as well pick any
spot

The message is to launch now while its cheap and while Russia and
Kazakstan are still cooperating Later the story may be different

Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL

preprocess doc  From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support


There are actually only two of us.  I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary.  Oh yeah,
this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
--
Dillon Pyron                      | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support    | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here)     |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home)     |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood.  We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com          |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909                     |


after prepro  From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re How many read scispace
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support


There are actually only two of us  I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary  Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby

Dillon Pyron                       The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support     sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here     
2144924656 when Im home     Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood  We need
pyronskndivdsegticom          solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909                     


preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 13

frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.125245.12872@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats
> Andtbacka) writes:
> |      "And these objective values are ... ?"
> |Please be specific, and more importantly, motivate.
> 
> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.

Yes, but whose freedom?  The world in general doesn't seem to value the
freedom of Tibetans, for example.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 13

frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
 In article 1993Apr1512524512872abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats
 Andtbacka writes
       And these objective values are  
 Please be specific and more importantly motivate
 
 Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable

Yes but whose freedom  The world in general doesnt seem to value the
freedom of Tibetans for example


mathew

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 22

Jim Perry (perry@dsinc.com) wrote:

: The Bible says there is a God; if that is true then our atheism is
: mistaken.  What of it?  Seems pretty obvious to me.  Socrates said
: there were many gods; if that is true then your monotheism (and our
: atheism) is mistaken, even if Socrates never existed.


Jim,

I think you must have come in late. The discussion (on my part at
least) began with Benedikt's questioning of the historical acuuracy of
the NT. I was making the point that, if the same standards are used to
validate secular history that are used here to discredit NT history,
then virtually nothing is known of the first century.

You seem to be saying that the Bible -cannot- be true because it
speaks of the existence of God as it it were a fact. Your objection
has nothing to do with history, it is merely another statement of
atheism.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 22

Jim Perry perrydsinccom wrote

 The Bible says there is a God if that is true then our atheism is
 mistaken  What of it  Seems pretty obvious to me  Socrates said
 there were many gods if that is true then your monotheism and our
 atheism is mistaken even if Socrates never existed


Jim

I think you must have come in late The discussion on my part at
least began with Benedikts questioning of the historical acuuracy of
the NT I was making the point that if the same standards are used to
validate secular history that are used here to discredit NT history
then virtually nothing is known of the first century

You seem to be saying that the Bible cannot be true because it
speaks of the existence of God as it it were a fact Your objection
has nothing to do with history it is merely another statement of
atheism

Bill

preprocess doc  From: daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing/temporary orbit
Organization: NSPC
Lines: 46

In article <pgf.735012282@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
|> rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again)) writes:
|> 
|> >The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'.  These
|> >are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
|> >three body system.  The probe was launched into this region for the
|> >earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
|> >allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
|> >down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
|> >expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
|> >originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
|> >was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
|> >deceleration.
|> 
|> 
|> I should probably re-post this with another title, so that
|> the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
|> use of "temporary orbits..."
|> 
|> Another possible temporary orbit:
|> 
|> --
|> Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
|> pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
|> 
|> 

If you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained
you should try and find the following paper:

     Hiroshi Yamakawa, Jun'ichiro Kawaguchi, Nobuaki Ishii, 
     and Hiroki Matsuo, "A Numerical Study of Gravitational Capture
     Orbit in the Earth-Moon System," AAS-92-186, AAS/AIAA Spaceflight
     Mechanics Meeting, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 1992.

The references included in this paper are quite interesting also and 
include several that are specific to the HITEN mission itself. 

|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
|                                 * _!!!!_ *                         |
| Steven Davis                   * /  \   \ *                        |
| daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov  *  (<o><o>)  *                       |  
|                               *  \>_db_</  *  McDonnell Douglas    |
|  - I don't represent           *   |vv|   *   Space Systems Company| 
|    anybody but myself. -        *  (__)  *    Houston Division     |
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|

after prepro  From davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis
Subject Re japanese moon landingtemporary orbit
Organization NSPC
Lines 46

In article  pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering writes
 rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again writes
 
 The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions  These
 are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
 three body system  The probe was launched into this region for the
 earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
 allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
 down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
 expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
 originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
 was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
 deceleration
 
 
 I should probably repost this with another title so that
 the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
 use of temporary orbits
 
 Another possible temporary orbit
 
 
 Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
 pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
 
 

If you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained
you should try and find the following paper

     Hiroshi Yamakawa Junichiro Kawaguchi Nobuaki Ishii 
     and Hiroki Matsuo A Numerical Study of Gravitational Capture
     Orbit in the EarthMoon System AAS92186 AASAIAA Spaceflight
     Mechanics Meeting Colorado Springs Colorado 1992

The references included in this paper are quite interesting also and 
include several that are specific to the HITEN mission itself 

  
                                  __                          
 Steven Davis                      \   \                         
 davisssweetpeajscnasagov                               
                                 \_db_    McDonnell Douglas    
   I dont represent              vv      Space Systems Company 
    anybody but myself           __      Houston Division     
  

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 11

mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
> I think you mean circular, not recursive, but that is semantics.
> Recursiveness has no problems, it is just horribly inefficient (just ask
> any assembly programmer.)

Tail-recursive functions in Scheme are at least as efficient as iterative
loops.  Anyone who doesn't program in assembler will have heard of optimizing
compilers.


mathew

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject Re  I think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics
 Recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask
 any assembly programmer

Tailrecursive functions in Scheme are at least as efficient as iterative
loops  Anyone who doesnt program in assembler will have heard of optimizing
compilers


mathew

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 51

In article <1993Apr2.115300.803@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> In article <C4twso.8M2@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, mukesh@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mukesh Prasad) writes:
|> > In article <1993Apr1.142854.794@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> >> In article <1p8v1aINN9e9@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, strat@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis) writes:
|> >> > bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
|> >> > 
|> >> >>- The Earth is evil because Satan rules over it.
|> >> > 
|> >> > This is a new one to me.  I guess it's been a while since a Witness
|> >> > bothered with me.  Are they implying that Satan is omniscient?  You
|> >> > might try tricking them into saying that Satan is 'all-knowing' and
|> >> > then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are
|> >> > self-contradictary.  
|> >> 
|> >> No, Satan is not omniscient, but he does hold dominion over the earth
|> >> according to Christian theology (note, not to be confused with JW's
|> >> theology). 
|> >> 
|> > 
|> > What are the standard theologies on who/what created Satan,
|> > and why?
|> > 
|> 
|> Orthodox Christian theology states that God created Lucifer (Satan)
|> along with the other angels, presumably because He wanted beings to
|> celebrate (glorify) existence and life (and thereby, God) along with
|> Him.  Actually the whys and wherefores of God's motivations for 
|> creating the angels are not a big issue within Christian theology.
|> 
|> But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
|> the other angels free moral will.  Lucifer was a high angel (perhaps
|> the highest) with great authority.  It seems that his greatness caused
|> him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or
|> greater than God.  He forgot his place as a created being.  He exalted
|> himself above God, and thereby evil and sin entered creation.

Actually, the story goes that Lucifer refused to bow before MAN as 
God commanded him to.  Lucifer was devoted to God.

Oh yeah, there is nothing in Genesis that says the snake was anything
more than a snake (well, a talking one...had legs at the time, too).

I don't think pointing out contradictions in STORIES is the best way
to show the error in theology:  if they think a supernatural entity
kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a
fruit that gave them special powers...well, they might not respond
well to reason and logic.  :^)

Brian /-|-\



after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 51

In article 1993Apr2115300803batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
 In article  mukeshHQIleafCOM Mukesh Prasad writes
  In article 1993Apr1142854794batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
  In article 1p8v1aINN9e9mattksuksuedu stratmattksuksuedu Steve Davis writes
   bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes
   
   The Earth is evil because Satan rules over it
   
   This is a new one to me  I guess its been a while since a Witness
   bothered with me  Are they implying that Satan is omniscient  You
   might try tricking them into saying that Satan is allknowing and
   then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are
   selfcontradictary  
  
  No Satan is not omniscient but he does hold dominion over the earth
  according to Christian theology note not to be confused with JWs
  theology 
  
  
  What are the standard theologies on whowhat created Satan
  and why
  
 
 Orthodox Christian theology states that God created Lucifer Satan
 along with the other angels presumably because He wanted beings to
 celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby God along with
 Him  Actually the whys and wherefores of Gods motivations for 
 creating the angels are not a big issue within Christian theology
 
 But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
 the other angels free moral will  Lucifer was a high angel perhaps
 the highest with great authority  It seems that his greatness caused
 him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or
 greater than God  He forgot his place as a created being  He exalted
 himself above God and thereby evil and sin entered creation

Actually the story goes that Lucifer refused to bow before MAN as 
God commanded him to  Lucifer was devoted to God

Oh yeah there is nothing in Genesis that says the snake was anything
more than a snake well a talking onehad legs at the time too

I dont think pointing out contradictions in STORIES is the best way
to show the error in theology  if they think a supernatural entity
kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a
fruit that gave them special powerswell they might not respond
well to reason and logic  ^

Brian \



preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 29

In article <C5qt5p.Mvo@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu
(Ken Arromdee) wrote:
> 
> In article <115694@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> >I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
> >deviant the view _as I've articulated it above_ (which may not be
> >the true view of Khomeini) is from the basic principles of Islam. 
> 
> From the point ov view of an atheist, I see you claim Khomeini wasn't
> practicing true Islam.  But I'm sure that he would have said the same about
> you.  How am I, a member of neither group, supposed to be able to tell which
> one of you two is really a true Muslim?

Fred Rice answered this already in an early posting:
"The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be "faking it".  This is something known only by
the person him/herself (and God).  Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true."

In other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and
false Muslim. We are back to square one, Khomeini and Hussein are 
still innocent and can't be defined as evil or good Islamic 
worshippers.

Cheers,
Kent

---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 29

In article  arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu
Ken Arromdee wrote
 
 In article 115694buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
 deviant the view _as Ive articulated it above_ which may not be
 the true view of Khomeini is from the basic principles of Islam 
 
 From the point ov view of an atheist I see you claim Khomeini wasnt
 practicing true Islam  But Im sure that he would have said the same about
 you  How am I a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which
 one of you two is really a true Muslim

Fred Rice answered this already in an early posting
The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be faking it  This is something known only by
the person himherself and God  Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a believer _is_ a believer is not necessarily true

In other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and
false Muslim We are back to square one Khomeini and Hussein are 
still innocent and cant be defined as evil or good Islamic 
worshippers

Cheers
Kent


sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 15/15 - Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
Supersedes: <launchers_730956689@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 195
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:02:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions

Archive-name: space/launchers
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:11 $

ORBITAL AND PLANETARY LAUNCH SERVICES

The following data comes from _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_ by Steven J. Isakowitz, 1991 edition.

Notes:
    * Unless otherwise specified, LEO and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm
	orbit.
    * Reliablity data includes launches through Dec, 1990. Reliabity for a
	familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when
	applicable
    * Prices are in millions of 1990 $US and are subject to change.
    * Only operational vehicle families are included. Individual vehicles
	which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk (*) If a vehicle
	had first launch after publication of my data, it may still be
	marked with an asterisk.


Vehicle        |     Payload  kg  (lbs)   | Reliability | Price | Launch Site
(nation)       |  LEO	   Polar    GTO   |		|	| (Lat. & Long.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ariane					    35/40  87.5%	  Kourou
(ESA)								 (5.2 N, 52.8 W)
  AR40		4,900	  3,900    1,900    1/1		  $65m
	       (10,800)  (8,580)  (4,190)
  AR42P		6,100	  4,800    2,600    1/1		  $67m
	       (13,400)  (10,600) (5,730)
  AR44P		6,900	  5,500    3,000    0/0 ?	  $70m
	       (15,200)  (12,100) (6,610)
  AR42L		7,400	  5,900    3,200    0/0 ?	  $90m
	       (16,300)  (13,000) (7,050)
  AR44LP	8,300	  6,600    3,700    6/6		  $95m
	       (18,300)  (14,500) (8,160)
  AR44L		9,600	  7,700    4,200    3/4		  $115m
	       (21,100)  (16,900) (9,260)

* AR5	       18,000	   ???	   6,800    0/0		  $105m
	      (39,600)		  (15,000)
	       [300nm]


Atlas					   213/245 86.9%	 Cape Canaveral
(USA)								 (28.5 N, 81.0W)
  Atlas E	 --	   820	     --     15/17	  $45m	 Vandeberg AFB
			  (1,800)				(34.7 N, 120.6W)

  Atlas I	5,580	  4,670    2,250    1/1		  $70m
	       (12,300)  (10,300) (4,950)

  Atlas II	6,395	  5,400    2,680    0/0		  $75m
	       (14,100)  (11,900) (5,900)

  Atlas IIA	6,760	  5,715    2,810    0/0		  $85m
	       (14,900)  (12,600) (6,200)

* Atlas IIAS	8,390	  6,805    3,490    0/0		  $115m
	       (18,500)  (15,000) (7,700)


Delta					   189/201 94.0%	 Cape Canaveral
(USA)								 Vandenberg AFB
  Delta 6925	3,900	  2,950    1,450   14/14	  $45m
	       (8,780)	 (6,490)  (3,190)

  Delta 7925	5,045	  3,830    1,820    1/1		  $50m
	       (11,100)  (8,420)  (2,000)


Energia					    2/2  100%		 Baikonur
(Russia)							 (45.6 N 63.4 E)
  Energia      88,000	 80,000     ???     2/2		  $110m
	      (194,000) (176,000)


H series				    22/22 100%		 Tangeshima
(Japan)								(30.2 N 130.6 E)
* H-2	       10,500	 6,600	   4,000    0/0		  $110m
	      (23,000)	(14,500)  (8,800)


Kosmos					   371/377 98.4%	 Plestek
(Russia)							 (62.8 N 40.1 E)
  Kosmos      1100 - 1350  (2300 - 3000)		 $???	 Kapustin Yar
	      [400 km orbit ??? inclination]			 (48.4 N 45.8 E)


Long March				    23/25 92.0%		 Jiquan SLC
(China)								 (41 N	100 E)
* CZ-1D		 720	  ???	    200     0/0		  $10m	 Xichang SLC
		(1,590)		   (440)			 (28 N	102 E)
								 Taiyuan SLC
  CZ-2C		3,200	  1,750    1,000    12/12	  $20m	 (41 N	100 E)
	       (7,040)	 (3,860)  (2,200)

  CZ-2E		9,200	   ???	   3,370    1/1		  $40m
	       (20,300)		  (7,430)

* CZ-2E/HO     13,600	   ???	   4,500    0/0		  $???
	      (29,900)		  (9,900)

  CZ-3		???	   ???	   1,400    6/7		  $33m
				  (3,100)

* CZ-3A		???	   ???	   2,500    0/0		  $???m
				  (5,500)

  CZ-4		4,000	   ???	   1,100    2/2		  $???m
	       (8,800)		  (2,430)


Pegasus/Taurus				    2/2   100%		Peg:  B-52/L1011
(USA)								Taur: Canaveral
  Pegasus	 455	   365	    125     2/2		  $10m	  or Vandenberg
		(1,000)   (800)    (275)

* Taurus	1,450	  1,180     375     0/0		  $15m
	       (3,200)	 (2,600)   (830)


Proton					   164/187 87.7%	 Baikonour
(Russia)
  Proton       20,000	   ???	   5,500   164/187	  $35-70m
	      (44,100)		  (12,200)


SCOUT					    99/113 87.6%	Vandenberg AFB
(USA)								Wallops FF
  SCOUT G-1	 270	   210	    54	    13/13	  $12m	(37.9 N  75.4 W)
		(600)	  (460)    (120)			San Marco
								(2.9 S	40.3 E)
* Enhanced SCOUT 525	   372	   110	    0/0		  $15m
		(1,160)   (820)   (240)


Shavit					    2/2   100%		Palmachim AFB
(Israel)							( ~31 N)
  Shavit	 ???	   160	   ???	    2/2		  $22m
			  (350)

Space Shuttle				    37/38  97.4%	Kennedy Space
(USA)								Center
  Shuttle/SRB  23,500	   ???	   5,900    37/38	  $248m (28.5 N 81.0 W)
	      (51,800)		  (13,000)		  [FY88]

* Shuttle/ASRM 27,100	   ???	   ???	    0/0
	      (59,800)


SLV					    2/6    33.3%	SHAR Center
(India)       (400km)  (900km polar)				(13.9 N 80.4 E)
  ASLV		150	   ???	    ???     0/2		  $???m
	       (330)

* PSLV		3,000	  1,000     450     0/0		  $???m
	       (6,600)	 (2,200)   (990)

* GSLV		8,000	   ???	   2,500    0/0		  $???m
	       (17,600)		  (5,500)


Titan					    160/172 93.0%	Cape Canaveral
(USA)								Vandenberg
  Titan II	 ???	  1,905     ???     2/2		   $43m
			 (4,200)

  Titan III    14,515	  ???	   5,000    2/3		   $140m
	      (32,000)		  (11,000)

  Titan IV/SRM 17,700	 14,100    6,350    3/3		   $154m-$227m
	      (39,000)	(31,100)  (14,000)

 Titan IV/SRMU 21,640	 18,600    8,620    0/0		   $???m
	      (47,700)	(41,000)  (19,000)


Vostok					    1358/1401 96.9%	Baikonur
(Russia)		 [650km]				Plesetsk
  Vostok	4,730	  1,840     ???     ?/149	   $14m
	      (10,400)	(4,060)

  Soyuz		7,000	   ???	    ???     ?/944	   $15m
	      (15,400)

  Molniya	1500kg (3300 lbs) in	    ?/258	   $???M
		Highly eliptical orbit


Zenit					    12/13  92.3%	Baikonur
(Russia)
  Zenit        13,740	 11,380    4,300    12/13	   $65m
	      (30,300)	(25,090)  (9,480)

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1515  Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
Supersedes 
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 195
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 200247 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions

Archivename spacelaunchers
Lastmodified Date 930401 143911 

ORBITAL AND PLANETARY LAUNCH SERVICES

The following data comes from _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_ by Steven J Isakowitz 1991 edition

Notes
     Unless otherwise specified LEO and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm
	orbit
     Reliablity data includes launches through Dec 1990 Reliabity for a
	familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when
	applicable
     Prices are in millions of 1990 US and are subject to change
     Only operational vehicle families are included Individual vehicles
	which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk  If a vehicle
	had first launch after publication of my data it may still be
	marked with an asterisk


Vehicle             Payload  kg  lbs    Reliability  Price  Launch Site
nation         LEO	   Polar    GTO   			 Lat  Long


Ariane					    3540  875	  Kourou
ESA								 52 N 528 W
  AR40		4900	  3900    1900    11		  65m
	       10800  8580  4190
  AR42P		6100	  4800    2600    11		  67m
	       13400  10600 5730
  AR44P		6900	  5500    3000    00 	  70m
	       15200  12100 6610
  AR42L		7400	  5900    3200    00 	  90m
	       16300  13000 7050
  AR44LP	8300	  6600    3700    66		  95m
	       18300  14500 8160
  AR44L		9600	  7700    4200    34		  115m
	       21100  16900 9260

 AR5	       18000	   	   6800    00		  105m
	      39600		  15000
	       [300nm]


Atlas					   213245 869	 Cape Canaveral
USA								 285 N 810W
  Atlas E	 	   820	          1517	  45m	 Vandeberg AFB
			  1800				347 N 1206W

  Atlas I	5580	  4670    2250    11		  70m
	       12300  10300 4950

  Atlas II	6395	  5400    2680    00		  75m
	       14100  11900 5900

  Atlas IIA	6760	  5715    2810    00		  85m
	       14900  12600 6200

 Atlas IIAS	8390	  6805    3490    00		  115m
	       18500  15000 7700


Delta					   189201 940	 Cape Canaveral
USA								 Vandenberg AFB
  Delta 6925	3900	  2950    1450   1414	  45m
	       8780	 6490  3190

  Delta 7925	5045	  3830    1820    11		  50m
	       11100  8420  2000


Energia					    22  100		 Baikonur
Russia							 456 N 634 E
  Energia      88000	 80000          22		  110m
	      194000 176000


H series				    2222 100		 Tangeshima
Japan								302 N 1306 E
 H2	       10500	 6600	   4000    00		  110m
	      23000	14500  8800


Kosmos					   371377 984	 Plestek
Russia							 628 N 401 E
  Kosmos      1100  1350  2300  3000		 	 Kapustin Yar
	      [400 km orbit  inclination]			 484 N 458 E


Long March				    2325 920		 Jiquan SLC
China								 41 N	100 E
 CZ1D		 720	  	    200     00		  10m	 Xichang SLC
		1590		   440			 28 N	102 E
								 Taiyuan SLC
  CZ2C		3200	  1750    1000    1212	  20m	 41 N	100 E
	       7040	 3860  2200

  CZ2E		9200	   	   3370    11		  40m
	       20300		  7430

 CZ2EHO     13600	   	   4500    00		  
	      29900		  9900

  CZ3			   	   1400    67		  33m
				  3100

 CZ3A			   	   2500    00		  m
				  5500

  CZ4		4000	   	   1100    22		  m
	       8800		  2430


PegasusTaurus				    22   100		Peg  B52L1011
USA								Taur Canaveral
  Pegasus	 455	   365	    125     22		  10m	  or Vandenberg
		1000   800    275

 Taurus	1450	  1180     375     00		  15m
	       3200	 2600   830


Proton					   164187 877	 Baikonour
Russia
  Proton       20000	   	   5500   164187	  3570m
	      44100		  12200


SCOUT					    99113 876	Vandenberg AFB
USA								Wallops FF
  SCOUT G1	 270	   210	    54	    1313	  12m	379 N  754 W
		600	  460    120			San Marco
								29 S	403 E
 Enhanced SCOUT 525	   372	   110	    00		  15m
		1160   820   240


Shavit					    22   100		Palmachim AFB
Israel							 31 N
  Shavit	 	   160	   	    22		  22m
			  350

Space Shuttle				    3738  974	Kennedy Space
USA								Center
  ShuttleSRB  23500	   	   5900    3738	  248m 285 N 810 W
	      51800		  13000		  [FY88]

 ShuttleASRM 27100	   	   	    00
	      59800


SLV					    26    333	SHAR Center
India       400km  900km polar				139 N 804 E
  ASLV		150	   	         02		  m
	       330

 PSLV		3000	  1000     450     00		  m
	       6600	 2200   990

 GSLV		8000	   	   2500    00		  m
	       17600		  5500


Titan					    160172 930	Cape Canaveral
USA								Vandenberg
  Titan II	 	  1905          22		   43m
			 4200

  Titan III    14515	  	   5000    23		   140m
	      32000		  11000

  Titan IVSRM 17700	 14100    6350    33		   154m227m
	      39000	31100  14000

 Titan IVSRMU 21640	 18600    8620    00		   m
	      47700	41000  19000


Vostok					    13581401 969	Baikonur
Russia		 [650km]				Plesetsk
  Vostok	4730	  1840          149	   14m
	      10400	4060

  Soyuz		7000	   	         944	   15m
	      15400

  Molniya	1500kg 3300 lbs in	    258	   M
		Highly eliptical orbit


Zenit					    1213  923	Baikonur
Russia
  Zenit        13740	 11380    4300    1213	   65m
	      30300	25090  9480

preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C5xuGL.Jow@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>, xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes...
>Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in today's Washington Post that Joseph Shea, the 
>head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons.
> 
>Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February.  He returned
>yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel.
>Shea's presentation was rambling and almost inaudible.

I missed the presentations given in the morning session (when Shea gave
his "rambling and almost inaudible" presentation), but I did attend
the afternoon session. The meeting was in a small conference room. The
speaker was wired with a mike, and there were microphones on the table for
the panel members to use. Peons (like me) sat in a foyer outside the
conference room, and watched the presentations on closed circuit TV. In
general, the sound system was fair to poor, and some of the other
speakers (like the committee member from the Italian Space Agency)
also were "almost inaudible."

Shea didn't "lead the formal presentation," in the sense of running
or guiding the presentation. He didn't even attend the afternoon
session. Vest ran the show (President of MIT, the chair of the
advisory panel).

> 
>Shea's deputy, former astronaut Bryan O'Connor, will take over the effort.

Note that O'Connor has been running the day-to-day
operations of the of the redesign team since Shea got sick (which
was immediately after the panel was formed).


after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Re Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article  xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in todays Washington Post that Joseph Shea the 
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons
 
Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February  He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel
Sheas presentation was rambling and almost inaudible

I missed the presentations given in the morning session when Shea gave
his rambling and almost inaudible presentation but I did attend
the afternoon session The meeting was in a small conference room The
speaker was wired with a mike and there were microphones on the table for
the panel members to use Peons like me sat in a foyer outside the
conference room and watched the presentations on closed circuit TV In
general the sound system was fair to poor and some of the other
speakers like the committee member from the Italian Space Agency
also were almost inaudible

Shea didnt lead the formal presentation in the sense of running
or guiding the presentation He didnt even attend the afternoon
session Vest ran the show President of MIT the chair of the
advisory panel

 
Sheas deputy former astronaut Bryan OConnor will take over the effort

Note that OConnor has been running the daytoday
operations of the of the redesign team since Shea got sick which
was immediately after the panel was formed


preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Stereo Pix of planets?y
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <1993Apr20.010326.8634@csus.edu>, arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler) writes:
> Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
> planetary satellite surfaces?  GIFs preferred, but any will do.  I'm
> especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos, Deimos, Mars
> and the Moon (in that order).
>   Thanks. 


ames.arc.nasa.gov not sure what subdirectory thou..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

PS: I know it has a GIF area as well as SPACE and other info..


after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Stereo Pix of planetsy
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article 1993Apr200103268634csusedu arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler writes
 Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
 planetary satellite surfaces  GIFs preferred but any will do  Im
 especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos Deimos Mars
 and the Moon in that order
   Thanks 


amesarcnasagov not sure what subdirectory thou


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

PS I know it has a GIF area as well as SPACE and other info


preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 23
Distribution: sci
	<1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: jafoust@cco.caltech.edu's message of 23 Apr 1993 18:44:19 GMT

In article <1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu> jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust) writes:

   In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
   >	If the  new  Kuiper belt object *is*  called 'Karla', the next
   >one  should be called 'Smiley'.

   Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
   object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.

As it happens the _second_ one is Karla. The first one was
Smiley. All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course,
but I think they might let this one slide...

*  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	          *
*  steinly@lick.ucsc.edu		"standard disclaimer"  	          *
*  "The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his 	  *
*  revolution is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without  *
*  radical change. Telling people that paradise can be attained without   *
*  revolution is treason of the vilest kind."  -- H.S. 1993		  * 


Just had to try out my new .sig# on this forum ;-)


after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 23
Distribution sci
	1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto jafoustccocaltechedus message of 23 Apr 1993 184419 GMT

In article 1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust writes

   In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
   	If the  new  Kuiper belt object is  called Karla the next
   one  should be called Smiley

   Unless Im imaging things always a possibility  1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
   object discovered last year is known as Smiley

As it happens the _second_ one is Karla The first one was
Smiley All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course
but I think they might let this one slide

  Steinn Sigurdsson   			Lick Observatory      	          
  steinlylickucscedu		standard disclaimer  	          
  The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his 	  
  revolution is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without  
  radical change Telling people that paradise can be attained without   
  revolution is treason of the vilest kind   HS 1993		   


Just had to try out my new sig on this forum 


preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 49
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>>Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
>>a certain species has developed in order to survive.
>Wait.  Are we talking about ethics or morals here?

Is the distinction important?

>>We see this countless
>>times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for
>>our own system as well.
>Huh?

Well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways.

>>In order for humans to thrive, we seem to need
>>to live in groups,
>Here's your problem.  "we *SEEM* to need".  What's wrong with the highlighted
>word?

I don't know.  What is wrong?  Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild?  Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult.  Humans
are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success.

>>and in order for a group to function effectively, it
>>needs some sort of ethical code.
>This statement is not correct.

Isn't it?  Why don't you think so?

>>And, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself,
>>I am not trying to give you your tautology, but I am trying to show that
>>such are examples of moral systems with a goal.  Propogation of the species
>>is a goal of a natural system of morality.
>So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral?  After all,
>in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate
>as many women as possible.

No.  As noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality)
isn't really destructive to the system.  It is a worst neutral.

>For that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates.  When
>he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who
>mates.  These seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying
>to shoot itself in the figurative foot.

Again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined...

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
a certain species has developed in order to survive
Wait  Are we talking about ethics or morals here

Is the distinction important

We see this countless
times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for
our own system as well
Huh

Well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways

In order for humans to thrive we seem to need
to live in groups
Heres your problem  we SEEM to need  Whats wrong with the highlighted
word

I dont know  What is wrong  Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild  Yes its possible but it is difficult  Humans
are a social animal and that is a cause of our success

and in order for a group to function effectively it
needs some sort of ethical code
This statement is not correct

Isnt it  Why dont you think so

And by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself
I am not trying to give you your tautology but I am trying to show that
such are examples of moral systems with a goal  Propogation of the species
is a goal of a natural system of morality
So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral  After all
in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate
as many women as possible

No  As noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality
isnt really destructive to the system  It is a worst neutral

For that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates  When
he diesis killedwhatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who
mates  These seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying
to shoot itself in the figurative foot

Again the mating practices are something to be reexamined

keith

preprocess doc  From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.142747.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu

In article <C5sB3p.IB9@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss) writes:
>    I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
> black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
> on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
> "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
> It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.
> 
> Doug Loss


Interesting is rigth.. I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits.. I think it might help people connect the future of
space with the present.. And give them an idea that we must go into space..

==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked

after prepro  From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
ArticleID aurora1993Apr201427471
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 16
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu

In article  lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss writes
    I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
 black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
 on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
 Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
 Its hardly space science I know but its interesting
 
 Doug Loss


Interesting is rigth I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits I think it might help people connect the future of
space with the present And give them an idea that we must go into space


Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu  Im not high just jacked

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
From: SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET)
Distribution: world
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com's message of 16 Apr 93 16:37:29 MSTLines: 34
Lines: 34

jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:   >
  ( in <1993Apr16.163729.867@batman.bmd.trw.com> )
  ( responding to Dave "First With Official A.A Nickname" Fuller )
 
[ ... ]
> The death penalty IS a deterrent, Dave.  The person executed will never
> commit a crime again.  Guaranteed.      [ ... ]

That means that it is an effective anti-recidivism measure.  It does
not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime
in the first place.

The true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually
stop one from murdering.  (Or commiting treason -- are there any other
capital crimes anywhere in the USA?)  That is, if there were no death
penalty, would its introduction deter a would-be criminal from
committing her/his crime?  I doubt it.

This is only the first step.  Even if it were a strong deterrent
(short of being a complete deterrent) I would reject it.  For what
about the case of the innocent executed?

And even if we could eliminate this possibility, I would reject the
death penalty as immoral. This makes me something of a radical on
the issue, although I think there are many opponents of captial
punishment who agree with me, but who find the innocent executed the
strongest argument to make.

I would, if magically placed in charge, facilitate state-aided suicide
for criminals who have life-sentences.  This could be a replacement
for capital punishment.  Those who don't want to live the rest of
their lives in jail would always have this option.

 -- Scott Sauyet                 ssauyet@eagle.wesleyan.edu

after prepro  Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
From SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu SCOTT D SAUYET
Distribution world
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 120InReplyTo jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcoms message of 16 Apr 93 163729 MSTLines 34
Lines 34

jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes   
   in 1993Apr16163729867batmanbmdtrwcom 
   responding to Dave First With Official AA Nickname Fuller 
 
[  ]
 The death penalty IS a deterrent Dave  The person executed will never
 commit a crime again  Guaranteed      [  ]

That means that it is an effective antirecidivism measure  It does
not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime
in the first place

The true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually
stop one from murdering  Or commiting treason  are there any other
capital crimes anywhere in the USA  That is if there were no death
penalty would its introduction deter a wouldbe criminal from
committing herhis crime  I doubt it

This is only the first step  Even if it were a strong deterrent
short of being a complete deterrent I would reject it  For what
about the case of the innocent executed

And even if we could eliminate this possibility I would reject the
death penalty as immoral This makes me something of a radical on
the issue although I think there are many opponents of captial
punishment who agree with me but who find the innocent executed the
strongest argument to make

I would if magically placed in charge facilitate stateaided suicide
for criminals who have lifesentences  This could be a replacement
for capital punishment  Those who dont want to live the rest of
their lives in jail would always have this option

  Scott Sauyet                 ssauyeteaglewesleyanedu

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
Summary: Please read this file before posting to alt.atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Thu, 6 May 1993 12:22:45 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930308134439@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 646

Archive-name: atheism/introduction
Alt-atheism-archive-name: introduction
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                          An Introduction to Atheism
                       by mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>

This article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism.  Whilst I
have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues, you
should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint.  I
would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions; some
relevant books are listed in a companion article.

To provide a sense of cohesion and progression, I have presented this article
as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist.  All the
questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped
up repeatedly on alt.atheism since the newsgroup was created.  Some other
frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article.

Please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions
posed from a Christian viewpoint.  This is because the FAQ files reflect
questions which have actually been asked, and it is predominantly Christians
who proselytize on alt.atheism.

So when I talk of religion, I am talking primarily about religions such as
Christianity, Judaism and Islam, which involve some sort of superhuman divine
being.  Much of the discussion will apply to other religions, but some of it
may not.

"What is atheism?"

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist.  The former is
often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
atheism".

It is important to note the difference between these two positions.  "Weak
atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God.  "Strong
atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist.  Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".

Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their
atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making
flat-out denials.

"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"

Definitely not.  Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true.  Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or
not.  Which brings us to agnosticism.

"What is agnosticism then?"

The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor Huxley at a meeting of the
Metaphysical Society in 1876.  He defined an agnostic as someone who
disclaimed ("strong") atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things
must be some cause unknown and unknowable.

Thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for
sure whether God exists.

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact.  Beware of assuming that
you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact
that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic.  For example, many people
use agnosticism to mean "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when
referring to "strong atheism".

Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it
is very difficult to generalize about atheists.  About all you can say for
sure is that atheists don't believe in God.  For example, it certainly isn't
the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out
about the universe.

"So what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism?"

There are many philosophical justifications for atheism.  To find out why a
particular person chooses to be an atheist, it's best to ask her.

Many atheists feel that the idea of God as presented by the major religions
is essentially self-contradictory, and that it is logically impossible that
such a God could exist.  Others are atheists through scepticism, because they
see no evidence that God exists.

"But isn't it impossible to prove the non-existence of something?"

There are many counter-examples to such a statement.  For example, it is
quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than
all other prime numbers.  Of course, this deals with well-defined objects
obeying well-defined rules.  Whether Gods or universes are similarly
well-defined is a matter for debate.

However, assuming for the moment that the existence of a God is not provably
impossible, there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non-existence of
God.  If we assume that something does not exist, it is always possible to
show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counter-example.

If on the other hand we assume that something does exist, and if the thing in
question is not provably impossible, showing that the assumption is invalid
may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing
might be found, to show that it isn't there.  Such an exhaustive search is
often impractical or impossible.  There is no such problem with largest
primes, because we can prove that they don't exist.

Therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist
unless we have evidence that they do.  Even theists follow this rule most of
the time; they don't believe in unicorns, even though they can't conclusively
prove that no unicorns exist anywhere.

To assume that God exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be
tested.  We cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere God might be to
prove that he doesn't exist anywhere.  So the sceptical atheist assumes by
default that God does not exist, since that is an assumption we can test.

Those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of God
exists; instead, they generally restrict their claims so as to cover
varieties of God described by followers of various religions.  So whilst it
may be impossible to prove conclusively that no God exists, it may be
possible to prove that (say) a God as described by a particular religious
book does not exist.  It may even be possible to prove that no God described
by any present-day religion exists.

In practice, believing that no God described by any religion exists is very
close to believing that no God exists.  However, it is sufficiently different
that counter-arguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of
God are not really applicable.

"But what if God is essentially non-detectable?"

If God interacts with our universe in any way, the effects of his interaction
must be measurable.  Hence his interaction with our universe must be
detectable.

If God is essentially non-detectable, it must therefore be the case that he
does not interact with our universe in any way.  Many atheists would argue
that if God does not interact with our universe at all, it is of no
importance whether he exists or not.

If the Bible is to be believed, God was easily detectable by the Israelites.
Surely he should still be detectable today?

Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically
verifiable, physical way.  It must surely be possible to perceive some
effect caused by his presence, though; otherwise, how can I distinguish him
from all the other things that don't exist?

"OK, you may think there's a philosophical justification for atheism, but
 isn't it still a religious belief?"

One of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is "the
redefinition game".  The cynical view of this game is as follows:

Person A begins by making a contentious statement.  When person B points out
that it can't be true, person A gradually re-defines the words he used in the
statement until he arrives at something person B is prepared to accept.  He
then records the statement, along with the fact that person B has agreed to
it, and continues.  Eventually A uses the statement as an "agreed fact", but
uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure
redefinitions originally needed to get B to agree to it.  Rather than be seen
to be apparently inconsistent, B will tend to play along.

The point of this digression is that the answer to the question "Isn't
atheism a religious belief?" depends crucially upon what is meant by
"religious".  "Religion" is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman
controlling power -- especially in some sort of God -- and by faith and
worship.

[ It's worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not
  "religion" according to such a definition. ]

Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power, nor is it
categorized by worship in any meaningful sense.  Widening the definition of
"religious" to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of
human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as "religious" as well -- such as
science, politics, and watching TV.

"OK, so it's not a religion.  But surely belief in atheism (or science) is
 still just an act of faith, like religion is?"

Firstly, it's not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one
actually believes in.

Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to
make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience.  Most atheists
try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to
questioning if experience throws them into doubt.

Science has a number of core assumptions.  For example, it is generally
assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers.  These are
the sort of core assumptions atheists make.  If such basic ideas are called
"acts of faith", then almost everything we know must be said to be based on
acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.

Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something.
According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of
faith.  Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as
religious followers when claiming that something is "certain".  This is not a
general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to
state with certainty that the universe exists.

Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof.
Sceptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as sceptical atheism
has no beliefs.  Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as
even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or
the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.

"If atheism is not religious, surely it's anti-religious?"

It is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either "for" or
"against", "friend" or "enemy".  The truth is not so clear-cut.

Atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism; in that sense,
it can be said to be "anti-religion".  However, when religious believers
speak of atheists being "anti-religious" they usually mean that the atheists
have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists.

This categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair.
Atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum.

Most atheists take a "live and let live" attitude.  Unless questioned, they
will not usually mention their atheism, except perhaps to close friends.  Of
course, this may be in part because atheism is not "socially acceptable" in
many countries.

A few atheists are quite anti-religious, and may even try to "convert" others
when possible.  Historically, such anti-religious atheists have made little
impact on society outside the Eastern Bloc countries.

(To digress slightly: the Soviet Union was originally dedicated to separation
of church and state, just like the USA.  Soviet citizens were legally free to
worship as they wished.  The institution of "state atheism" came about when
Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and tried to destroy the churches in
order to gain complete power over the population.)

Some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs, but only where they see
religion encroaching on matters which are not its business -- for example,
the government of the USA.  Such individuals are usually concerned that
church and state should remain separate.

"But if you don't allow religion to have a say in the running of the state,
 surely that's the same as state atheism?"

The principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall
not legislate concerning matters of religious belief.  In particular, it
means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of
another, but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in
nature.

Religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters.  For
example, religious believers have historically been responsible for
encouraging many political reforms.  Even today, many organizations
campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as
religious campaigns.  So long as they campaign concerning secular matters,
and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds, most atheists
are quite happy to see them have their say.

"What about prayer in schools? If there's no God, why do you care if people
 pray?"

Because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers, and tend to do things
that those who don't pray can't just ignore.  Also, Christian prayer in
schools is intimidating to non-Christians, even if they are told that they
need not join in.  The diversity of religious and non-religious belief means
that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be
acceptable to all those present at any public event.

Also, non-prayers tend to have friends and family who pray.  It is reasonable
to care about friends and family wasting their time, even without other
motives.

"You mentioned Christians who campaign for increased foreign aid.  What about
 atheists?  Why aren't there any atheist charities or hospitals?  Don't
 atheists object to the religious charities?"

There are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to.  Some atheists contribute to religious charities as well, for
the sake of the practical good they do.  Some atheists even do voluntary work
for charities founded on a theistic basis.

Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn't worth shouting about in
connection with charity.  To them, atheism is just a simple, obvious everyday
matter, and so is charity.  Many feel that it's somewhat cheap, not to say
self-righteous, to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set
of religious beliefs.

To "weak" atheists, building a hospital to say "I do not believe in God" is a
rather strange idea; it's rather like holding a party to say "Today is not my
birthday".  Why the fuss?  Atheism is rarely evangelical.

"You said atheism isn't anti-religious.  But is it perhaps a backlash against
 one's upbringing, a way of rebelling?"

Perhaps it is, for some.  But many people have parents who do not attempt to
force any religious (or atheist) ideas upon them, and many of those people
choose to call themselves atheists.

It's also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a
backlash against an atheist upbringing, as a way of being different.  On the
other hand, many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the
expectations of others.

On the whole, we can't conclude much about whether atheism or religion are
backlash or conformism; although in general, people have a tendency to go
along with a group rather than act or think independently.

"How do atheists differ from religious people?"

They don't believe in God.  That's all there is to it.

Atheists may listen to heavy metal -- backwards, even -- or they may prefer a
Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words.  They may wear Hawaiian shirts,
they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes.  (Many
Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.)  Some atheists even carry a copy
of the Bible around -- for arguing against, of course!

Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without
realising it.  Atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and
appearance.

"Unexceptional? But aren't atheists less moral than religious people?"

That depends.  If you define morality as obedience to God, then of course
atheists are less moral as they don't obey any God.  But usually when one
talks of morality, one talks of what is acceptable ("right") and unacceptable
("wrong") behaviour within society.

Humans are social animals, and to be maximally successful they must
co-operate with each other.  This is a good enough reason to discourage most
atheists from "anti-social" or "immoral" behaviour, purely for the purposes
of self-preservation.

Many atheists behave in a "moral" or "compassionate" way simply because they
feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans.  So why do they care
what happens to others?  They don't know, they simply are that way.

Naturally, there are some people who behave "immorally" and try to use
atheism to justify their actions.  However, there are equally many people who
behave "immorally" and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their
actions.  For example:

  "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ
   came into the world to save sinners...  But for that very reason, I was
   shown mercy so that in me...  Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
   patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
   eternal life.  Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God,
   be honor and glory forever and ever."

The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer, the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee,
Wisconsin.  It seems that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a
religious mass-murderer.  But what of more trivial morality?

   A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
   deteriorated after "born again" experiences.  While only 4% of respondents
   said they had driven intoxicated before being "born again," 12% had done
   so after conversion.  Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before
   conversion, 9% after.  Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
   before salvation; 5% after.
                                ["Freethought Today", September 1991, p. 12.]

So it seems that at best, religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour.

"Is there such a thing as atheist morality?"

If you mean "Is there such a thing as morality for atheists?", then the
answer is yes, as explained above.  Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people.

If you mean "Does atheism have a characteristic moral code?", then the answer
is no.  Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave.  Most atheists follow many of the same "moral rules" as theists,
but for different reasons.  Atheists view morality as something created by
humans, according to the way humans feel the world 'ought' to work, rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being.

"Then aren't atheists just theists who are denying God?"

A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90% of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them.  They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them.

Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial; they are
unbelievers through choice.  The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions, sometimes in very great depth.  They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs.

This decision may, of course, be an inevitable consequence of that
individual's personality.  For a naturally sceptical person, the choice
of atheism is often the only one that makes sense, and hence the only
choice that person can honestly make.

"But don't atheists want to believe in God?"

Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them.  Many
of them have no desire to be watched over, no matter how good-natured the
"Big Brother" figure might be.

Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God -- but so what? Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true?  The risks of
such an approach should be obvious.  Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough; there must be evidence for the belief.

"But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God -- they are
 unwilling in their souls to see!"

Many, if not most atheists were previously religious.  As has been explained
above, the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists.  Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God.

Of course, it is true that some atheists lack an open mind; but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed-minded.
Comments such as "Of course God is there, you just aren't looking properly"
are likely to be viewed as patronizing.

Certainly, if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God.  If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth, debate is
futile.

"Isn't the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist?"

Many atheists live a purposeful life.  They decide what they think gives
meaning to life, and they pursue those goals.  They try to make their lives
count, not by wishing for eternal life, but by having an influence on other
people who will live on.  For example, an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform, in the hope of leaving his mark on history.

It is a natural human tendency to look for "meaning" or "purpose" in random
events.  However, it is by no means obvious that "life" is the sort of thing
that has a "meaning".

To put it another way, not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask.  Some atheists believe that asking "What is the
meaning of life?" is as silly as asking "What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee?".  They believe that life has no purpose or meaning, it just is.

"So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger?"

There are many ways of obtaining comfort; from family, friends, or even pets.
Or on a less spiritual level, from food or drink or TV.

That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger, but so
what?  Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting, or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be?

In the end, it's a decision for the individual concerned.  Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable.  They put truth before comfort, and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy, that's just
hard luck.

"Don't atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"

The short answer is "No, do you?"

Many atheists have been atheists for years.  They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God, but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive.

Thousands of years of religious belief haven't resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God.  Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future, and they stop worrying about it.

"So why should theists question their beliefs? Don't the same arguments
 apply?"

No, because the beliefs being questioned are not similar.  Weak atheism is
the sceptical "default position" to take; it asserts nothing.  Strong atheism
is a negative belief.  Theism is a very strong positive belief.

Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause -- not just to the believers,
but to everyone else.

"What sort of harm?"

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind.  It's not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings;
think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on.
Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing.  There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result.  Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and
condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion.

"Those weren't REAL believers.  They just claimed to be believers as some
 sort of excuse."

What makes a real believer?  There are so many One True Religions it's hard
to tell.  Look at Christianity: there are many competing groups, all
convinced that they are the only true Christians.  Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other.  How is an atheist supposed to decide who's a REAL
Christian and who isn't, when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England can't decide amongst themselves?

In the end, most atheists take a pragmatic view, and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian, and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions, should be considered a Christian.  Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends -- but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support un-Christian acts it can't be
much of a moral code? If the Bible is the word of God, why couldn't he have
made it less easy to misinterpret? And how do you know that your beliefs
aren't a perversion of what your God intended?

If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible, then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say-so?
Sorry, but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so, we must call him a
Christian.

"Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned.  But since
 nobody has ever proved that God does not exist, it must be very unlikely
 that more basic religious beliefs, shared by all faiths, are nonsense."

That does not hold, because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue,
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones.  Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
don't exist, but that doesn't make it unlikely that they are myths.

It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default.  Of course, "weak" atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still.

"Well, if atheism's so great, why are there so many theists?"

Unfortunately, the popularity of a belief has little to do with how "correct"
it is, or whether it "works"; consider how many people believe in astrology,
graphology, and other pseudo-sciences.

Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods.  Certainly in many primitive human societies, religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand.

Of course, there's more to religion than that.  In the industrialized world,
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations.  Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world, but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well.

"But so many cultures have developed religions.  Surely that must say
 something?"

Not really.  Most religions are only superficially similar; for example, it's
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense.

Of course, most religions are quick to denounce competing religions, so it's
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another.

"What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
 that God exists?"

For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one who
does not.  Besides, as has already been pointed out, the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it.  Also, it is important to
realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders.

A famous scientist is only human; she may be an expert in some fields, but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight.  Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise.

"So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
 nothing?"

Not entirely.  It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far.

The theory of memetics talks of "memes" -- sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds, by analogy with genes.  Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes, which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others.  Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine, or by using peer pressure
to keep one-time believers from admitting that they were mistaken.  Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes.

Of course, in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme.  Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it, any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it.

"Even if religion is not entirely true, at least it puts across important
 messages.  What are the fundamental messages of atheism?"

There are many important ideas atheists promote.  The following are just a
few of them; don't be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions.

   There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules.

   Be especially sceptical of positive claims.

   If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to
   find it.

   Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

   Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.

   It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change
   yourself.

   Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.

   If you must assume something, assume something it's easy to test.

   Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.

and finally (and most importantly):

   All beliefs should be open to question.

Thanks for taking the time to read this article.


mathew

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after prepro  From mathew 
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
Summary Please read this file before posting to altatheism
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Thu 6 May 1993 122245 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930308134439mantiscouk
Lines 646

Archivename atheismintroduction
Altatheismarchivename introduction
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 12

BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE

                          An Introduction to Atheism
                       by mathew 

This article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism  Whilst I
have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues you
should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint  I
would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions some
relevant books are listed in a companion article

To provide a sense of cohesion and progression I have presented this article
as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist  All the
questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped
up repeatedly on altatheism since the newsgroup was created  Some other
frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article

Please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions
posed from a Christian viewpoint  This is because the FAQ files reflect
questions which have actually been asked and it is predominantly Christians
who proselytize on altatheism

So when I talk of religion I am talking primarily about religions such as
Christianity Judaism and Islam which involve some sort of superhuman divine
being  Much of the discussion will apply to other religions but some of it
may not

What is atheism

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God
Some atheists go further and believe that God does not exist  The former is
often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong
atheism

It is important to note the difference between these two positions  Weak
atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of God  Strong
atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist  Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists

Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods others limit their
atheism to specific Gods such as the Christian God rather than making
flatout denials

But isnt disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesnt exist

Definitely not  Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true  Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false one may simply have no idea whether it is true or
not  Which brings us to agnosticism

What is agnosticism then

The term agnosticism was coined by Professor Huxley at a meeting of the
Metaphysical Society in 1876  He defined an agnostic as someone who
disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things
must be some cause unknown and unknowable

Thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for
sure whether God exists

Words are slippery things and language is inexact  Beware of assuming that
you can work out someones philosophical point of view simply from the fact
that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic  For example many people
use agnosticism to mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when
referring to strong atheism

Beware also that because the word atheist has so many shades of meaning it
is very difficult to generalize about atheists  About all you can say for
sure is that atheists dont believe in God  For example it certainly isnt
the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out
about the universe

So what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism

There are many philosophical justifications for atheism  To find out why a
particular person chooses to be an atheist its best to ask her

Many atheists feel that the idea of God as presented by the major religions
is essentially selfcontradictory and that it is logically impossible that
such a God could exist  Others are atheists through scepticism because they
see no evidence that God exists

But isnt it impossible to prove the nonexistence of something

There are many counterexamples to such a statement  For example it is
quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than
all other prime numbers  Of course this deals with welldefined objects
obeying welldefined rules  Whether Gods or universes are similarly
welldefined is a matter for debate

However assuming for the moment that the existence of a God is not provably
impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the nonexistence of
God  If we assume that something does not exist it is always possible to
show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counterexample

If on the other hand we assume that something does exist and if the thing in
question is not provably impossible showing that the assumption is invalid
may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing
might be found to show that it isnt there  Such an exhaustive search is
often impractical or impossible  There is no such problem with largest
primes because we can prove that they dont exist

Therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist
unless we have evidence that they do  Even theists follow this rule most of
the time they dont believe in unicorns even though they cant conclusively
prove that no unicorns exist anywhere

To assume that God exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be
tested  We cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere God might be to
prove that he doesnt exist anywhere  So the sceptical atheist assumes by
default that God does not exist since that is an assumption we can test

Those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of God
exists instead they generally restrict their claims so as to cover
varieties of God described by followers of various religions  So whilst it
may be impossible to prove conclusively that no God exists it may be
possible to prove that say a God as described by a particular religious
book does not exist  It may even be possible to prove that no God described
by any presentday religion exists

In practice believing that no God described by any religion exists is very
close to believing that no God exists  However it is sufficiently different
that counterarguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of
God are not really applicable

But what if God is essentially nondetectable

If God interacts with our universe in any way the effects of his interaction
must be measurable  Hence his interaction with our universe must be
detectable

If God is essentially nondetectable it must therefore be the case that he
does not interact with our universe in any way  Many atheists would argue
that if God does not interact with our universe at all it is of no
importance whether he exists or not

If the Bible is to be believed God was easily detectable by the Israelites
Surely he should still be detectable today

Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically
verifiable physical way  It must surely be possible to perceive some
effect caused by his presence though otherwise how can I distinguish him
from all the other things that dont exist

OK you may think theres a philosophical justification for atheism but
 isnt it still a religious belief

One of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is the
redefinition game  The cynical view of this game is as follows

Person A begins by making a contentious statement  When person B points out
that it cant be true person A gradually redefines the words he used in the
statement until he arrives at something person B is prepared to accept  He
then records the statement along with the fact that person B has agreed to
it and continues  Eventually A uses the statement as an agreed fact but
uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure
redefinitions originally needed to get B to agree to it  Rather than be seen
to be apparently inconsistent B will tend to play along

The point of this digression is that the answer to the question Isnt
atheism a religious belief depends crucially upon what is meant by
religious  Religion is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman
controlling power  especially in some sort of God  and by faith and
worship

[ Its worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not
  religion according to such a definition ]

Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power nor is it
categorized by worship in any meaningful sense  Widening the definition of
religious to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of
human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as religious as well  such as
science politics and watching TV

OK so its not a religion  But surely belief in atheism or science is
 still just an act of faith like religion is

Firstly its not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one
actually believes in

Secondly it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to
make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience  Most atheists
try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible and even those are subject to
questioning if experience throws them into doubt

Science has a number of core assumptions  For example it is generally
assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers  These are
the sort of core assumptions atheists make  If such basic ideas are called
acts of faith then almost everything we know must be said to be based on
acts of faith and the term loses its meaning

Faith is more often used to refer to complete certain belief in something
According to such a definition atheism and science are certainly not acts of
faith  Of course individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as
religious followers when claiming that something is certain  This is not a
general tendency however there are many atheists who would be reluctant to
state with certainty that the universe exists

Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof
Sceptical atheism certainly doesnt fit that definition as sceptical atheism
has no beliefs  Strong atheism is closer but still doesnt really match as
even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data or
the lack of it when asserting that God does not exist

If atheism is not religious surely its antireligious

It is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either for or
against friend or enemy  The truth is not so clearcut

Atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism in that sense
it can be said to be antireligion  However when religious believers
speak of atheists being antireligious they usually mean that the atheists
have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists

This categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair
Atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum

Most atheists take a live and let live attitude  Unless questioned they
will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps to close friends  Of
course this may be in part because atheism is not socially acceptable in
many countries

A few atheists are quite antireligious and may even try to convert others
when possible  Historically such antireligious atheists have made little
impact on society outside the Eastern Bloc countries

To digress slightly the Soviet Union was originally dedicated to separation
of church and state just like the USA  Soviet citizens were legally free to
worship as they wished  The institution of state atheism came about when
Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and tried to destroy the churches in
order to gain complete power over the population

Some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see
religion encroaching on matters which are not its business  for example
the government of the USA  Such individuals are usually concerned that
church and state should remain separate

But if you dont allow religion to have a say in the running of the state
 surely thats the same as state atheism

The principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall
not legislate concerning matters of religious belief  In particular it
means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of
another but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in
nature

Religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters  For
example religious believers have historically been responsible for
encouraging many political reforms  Even today many organizations
campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as
religious campaigns  So long as they campaign concerning secular matters
and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds most atheists
are quite happy to see them have their say

What about prayer in schools If theres no God why do you care if people
 pray

Because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers and tend to do things
that those who dont pray cant just ignore  Also Christian prayer in
schools is intimidating to nonChristians even if they are told that they
need not join in  The diversity of religious and nonreligious belief means
that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be
acceptable to all those present at any public event

Also nonprayers tend to have friends and family who pray  It is reasonable
to care about friends and family wasting their time even without other
motives

You mentioned Christians who campaign for increased foreign aid  What about
 atheists  Why arent there any atheist charities or hospitals  Dont
 atheists object to the religious charities

There are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to  Some atheists contribute to religious charities as well for
the sake of the practical good they do  Some atheists even do voluntary work
for charities founded on a theistic basis

Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isnt worth shouting about in
connection with charity  To them atheism is just a simple obvious everyday
matter and so is charity  Many feel that its somewhat cheap not to say
selfrighteous to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set
of religious beliefs

To weak atheists building a hospital to say I do not believe in God is a
rather strange idea its rather like holding a party to say Today is not my
birthday  Why the fuss  Atheism is rarely evangelical

You said atheism isnt antireligious  But is it perhaps a backlash against
 ones upbringing a way of rebelling

Perhaps it is for some  But many people have parents who do not attempt to
force any religious or atheist ideas upon them and many of those people
choose to call themselves atheists

Its also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a
backlash against an atheist upbringing as a way of being different  On the
other hand many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the
expectations of others

On the whole we cant conclude much about whether atheism or religion are
backlash or conformism although in general people have a tendency to go
along with a group rather than act or think independently

How do atheists differ from religious people

They dont believe in God  Thats all there is to it

Atheists may listen to heavy metal  backwards even  or they may prefer a
Verdi Requiem even if they know the words  They may wear Hawaiian shirts
they may dress all in black they may even wear orange robes  Many
Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God  Some atheists even carry a copy
of the Bible around  for arguing against of course

Whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without
realising it  Atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and
appearance

Unexceptional But arent atheists less moral than religious people

That depends  If you define morality as obedience to God then of course
atheists are less moral as they dont obey any God  But usually when one
talks of morality one talks of what is acceptable right and unacceptable
wrong behaviour within society

Humans are social animals and to be maximally successful they must
cooperate with each other  This is a good enough reason to discourage most
atheists from antisocial or immoral behaviour purely for the purposes
of selfpreservation

Many atheists behave in a moral or compassionate way simply because they
feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans  So why do they care
what happens to others  They dont know they simply are that way

Naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try to use
atheism to justify their actions  However there are equally many people who
behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their
actions  For example

  Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance Jesus Christ
   came into the world to save sinners  But for that very reason I was
   shown mercy so that in me  Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
   patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
   eternal life  Now to the king eternal immortal invisible the only God
   be honor and glory forever and ever

The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee
Wisconsin  It seems that for every atheist massmurderer there is a
religious massmurderer  But what of more trivial morality

   A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
   deteriorated after born again experiences  While only 4 of respondents
   said they had driven intoxicated before being born again 12 had done
   so after conversion  Similarly 5 had used illegal drugs before
   conversion 9 after  Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
   before salvation 5 after
                                [Freethought Today September 1991 p 12]

So it seems that at best religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour

Is there such a thing as atheist morality

If you mean Is there such a thing as morality for atheists then the
answer is yes as explained above  Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people

If you mean Does atheism have a characteristic moral code then the answer
is no  Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave  Most atheists follow many of the same moral rules as theists
but for different reasons  Atheists view morality as something created by
humans according to the way humans feel the world ought to work rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being

Then arent atheists just theists who are denying God

A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90 of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them  They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them

Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial they are
unbelievers through choice  The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions sometimes in very great depth  They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs

This decision may of course be an inevitable consequence of that
individuals personality  For a naturally sceptical person the choice
of atheism is often the only one that makes sense and hence the only
choice that person can honestly make

But dont atheists want to believe in God

Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them  Many
of them have no desire to be watched over no matter how goodnatured the
Big Brother figure might be

Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God  but so what Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true  The risks of
such an approach should be obvious  Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough there must be evidence for the belief

But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God  they are
 unwilling in their souls to see

Many if not most atheists were previously religious  As has been explained
above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists  Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God

Of course it is true that some atheists lack an open mind but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closedminded
Comments such as Of course God is there you just arent looking properly
are likely to be viewed as patronizing

Certainly if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God  If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth debate is
futile

Isnt the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist

Many atheists live a purposeful life  They decide what they think gives
meaning to life and they pursue those goals  They try to make their lives
count not by wishing for eternal life but by having an influence on other
people who will live on  For example an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform in the hope of leaving his mark on history

It is a natural human tendency to look for meaning or purpose in random
events  However it is by no means obvious that life is the sort of thing
that has a meaning

To put it another way not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask  Some atheists believe that asking What is the
meaning of life is as silly as asking What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee  They believe that life has no purpose or meaning it just is

So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger

There are many ways of obtaining comfort from family friends or even pets
Or on a less spiritual level from food or drink or TV

That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger but so
what  Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be

In the end its a decision for the individual concerned  Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable  They put truth before comfort and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy thats just
hard luck

Dont atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong

The short answer is No do you

Many atheists have been atheists for years  They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive

Thousands of years of religious belief havent resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God  Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future and they stop worrying about it

So why should theists question their beliefs Dont the same arguments
 apply

No because the beliefs being questioned are not similar  Weak atheism is
the sceptical default position to take it asserts nothing  Strong atheism
is a negative belief  Theism is a very strong positive belief

Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause  not just to the believers
but to everyone else

What sort of harm

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind  Its not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings
think of all the time and effort spent building churches praying and so on
Imagine how that effort could be better spent

Many theists believe in miracle healing  There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being healed by a priest ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors and dying as a result  Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds

It is arguable that the Catholic Churchs opposition to birth control  and
condoms in particular  is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
thirdworld countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS worldwide

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion

Those werent REAL believers  They just claimed to be believers as some
 sort of excuse

What makes a real believer  There are so many One True Religions its hard
to tell  Look at Christianity there are many competing groups all
convinced that they are the only true Christians  Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other  How is an atheist supposed to decide whos a REAL
Christian and who isnt when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England cant decide amongst themselves

In the end most atheists take a pragmatic view and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions should be considered a Christian  Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends  but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support unChristian acts it cant be
much of a moral code If the Bible is the word of God why couldnt he have
made it less easy to misinterpret And how do you know that your beliefs
arent a perversion of what your God intended

If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your sayso
Sorry but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so we must call him a
Christian

Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned  But since
 nobody has ever proved that God does not exist it must be very unlikely
 that more basic religious beliefs shared by all faiths are nonsense

That does not hold because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones  Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
dont exist but that doesnt make it unlikely that they are myths

It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default  Of course weak atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still

Well if atheisms so great why are there so many theists

Unfortunately the popularity of a belief has little to do with how correct
it is or whether it works consider how many people believe in astrology
graphology and other pseudosciences

Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods  Certainly in many primitive human societies religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand

Of course theres more to religion than that  In the industrialized world
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations  Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well

But so many cultures have developed religions  Surely that must say
 something

Not really  Most religions are only superficially similar for example its
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense

Of course most religions are quick to denounce competing religions so its
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another

What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
 that God exists

For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god there is one who
does not  Besides as has already been pointed out the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it  Also it is important to
realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders

A famous scientist is only human she may be an expert in some fields but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight  Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise

So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
 nothing

Not entirely  It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far

The theory of memetics talks of memes  sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds by analogy with genes  Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others  Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine or by using peer pressure
to keep onetime believers from admitting that they were mistaken  Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes

Of course in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme  Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it

Even if religion is not entirely true at least it puts across important
 messages  What are the fundamental messages of atheism

There are many important ideas atheists promote  The following are just a
few of them dont be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions

   There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules

   Be especially sceptical of positive claims

   If you want your life to have some sort of meaning its up to you to
   find it

   Search for what is true even if it makes you uncomfortable

   Make the most of your life as its probably the only one youll have

   Its no good relying on some external power to change you you must change
   yourself

   Just because somethings popular doesnt mean its good

   If you must assume something assume something its easy to test

   Dont believe things just because you want them to be true

and finally and most importantly

   All beliefs should be open to question

Thanks for taking the time to read this article


mathew

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preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 35

In article <1993Apr14.231654.14060@stsci.edu> rdouglas@stsci.edu (Rob Douglas) writes:

>This question is probably mostly for Allen Sherzer, but anyone who KNOWS
>would be welcome to answer.  I was just wondering if we could have some kind
>of update on DC-X.

Well it rolled out two weeks ago. As we speak it is at White Sands getting
ready. I would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out
of town (in NM).

As for the future, there is at least $5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT. They (SDIO) have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some. However, SDIO is not (I repeat, is not) going to fund an orbital
prototype. The best we can hope from them is to 1) keep it alive for
another year, and 2) fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT (with
major modifications) just make orbit. There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions.

Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort. The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about $50M next
year for studies. This would be enough to bring DC-Y to PDR.

Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC.

Public support is STILL critical. Meet with your Congressperson (I'll
help you do it) and get his/her support. Also call your local media
ans get them to cover the flight tests.

   Allen
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------62 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 35

In article 1993Apr1423165414060stsciedu rdouglasstsciedu Rob Douglas writes

This question is probably mostly for Allen Sherzer but anyone who KNOWS
would be welcome to answer  I was just wondering if we could have some kind
of update on DCX

Well it rolled out two weeks ago As we speak it is at White Sands getting
ready I would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out
of town in NM

As for the future there is at least 5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT They SDIO have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some However SDIO is not I repeat is not going to fund an orbital
prototype The best we can hope from them is to 1 keep it alive for
another year and 2 fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT with
major modifications just make orbit There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions

Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about 50M next
year for studies This would be enough to bring DCY to PDR

Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC

Public support is STILL critical Meet with your Congressperson Ill
help you do it and get hisher support Also call your local media
ans get them to cover the flight tests

   Allen
 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
62 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 60

In <CINDY.93Apr18124333@solan10.solan.unit.no> cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf) writes:

>Various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of
>bandwidth, but i will copy the Koran quote:
>>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH:  ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE."  (Holy Quran 21:33)

>As it has been pointed out, this quote makes no claim about what
>orbits what.  The idea that something orbited something had been held
>as true for many years before the Koran was written, so the fact that
>it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight.  My
>concern is with the word "rounded". 

>There are two interpretations of this word:
>1. It means in a circle.  This is wrong, although many believed it to
>be true at the time the Koran was written.  In other words, it is not
>describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists, but
>as it was thought to be at the time.  This has implications which i
>hope are obvious to everyone.
>2. It means "in a rounded shape", which could include elipses (the
>geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the
>planets).  This is also not a great insight.  Look at the shapes you
>see in nature.  Very few of them even approach a square or rectangle;
>those are human-created shapes.  Everything in nature is rounded to
>some degree.  Even the flat-earthers don't try to claim Earth is a
>rectangle.  Children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them
>rectangular bodies.  We seem to instinctively recognize that nature
>produces rounded shapes; hence, the assumption that the orbits of the
>planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration.

It is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an
interpretation, so (as you point out below) one must really go back to
the original Arabic.  Regarding the verses relevant to nature, I prefer
to use Dr. Maurice Bucaille's translations (in his book, "The Bible, the
Qur'an and Science") for in general his translations are more literal.
 
Maurice Bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing
as 

"...Each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion."

(Also note that "the celestial bodies" in the first translation quoted
by you above is the translator's interpolation -- it is not existent in
the original Arabic, which is why it is included in brackets.) 

>Perhaps someone who can read the original Arabic can eliminate one of
>these interpretations; at any rate, neither one of them is exactly
>impressive.

You're right, what the verses _do_ contain isn't all that remarkable.

However, Dr. Bucaille (a surgeon, that's how he's a "Dr.") thinks it is
significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas, even
though geocentrism was all the rage up until the 17th century (?) or so.
(And this goes for the rest of the Qur'an as well, which has about 750
verses or so regarding nature, I think I remember reading once.)

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 60

In  cindysolan10solanunitno Cynthia Kandolf writes

Various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of
bandwidth but i will copy the Koran quote
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH  ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE  Holy Quran 2133

As it has been pointed out this quote makes no claim about what
orbits what  The idea that something orbited something had been held
as true for many years before the Koran was written so the fact that
it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight  My
concern is with the word rounded 

There are two interpretations of this word
1 It means in a circle  This is wrong although many believed it to
be true at the time the Koran was written  In other words it is not
describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists but
as it was thought to be at the time  This has implications which i
hope are obvious to everyone
2 It means in a rounded shape which could include elipses the
geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the
planets  This is also not a great insight  Look at the shapes you
see in nature  Very few of them even approach a square or rectangle
those are humancreated shapes  Everything in nature is rounded to
some degree  Even the flatearthers dont try to claim Earth is a
rectangle  Children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them
rectangular bodies  We seem to instinctively recognize that nature
produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits of the
planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration

It is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an
interpretation so as you point out below one must really go back to
the original Arabic  Regarding the verses relevant to nature I prefer
to use Dr Maurice Bucailles translations in his book The Bible the
Quran and Science for in general his translations are more literal
 
Maurice Bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing
as 

Each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion

Also note that the celestial bodies in the first translation quoted
by you above is the translators interpolation  it is not existent in
the original Arabic which is why it is included in brackets 

Perhaps someone who can read the original Arabic can eliminate one of
these interpretations at any rate neither one of them is exactly
impressive

Youre right what the verses _do_ contain isnt all that remarkable

However Dr Bucaille a surgeon thats how hes a Dr thinks it is
significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas even
though geocentrism was all the rage up until the 17th century  or so
And this goes for the rest of the Quran as well which has about 750
verses or so regarding nature I think I remember reading once

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Lines: 34
Organization: Walla Walla College
Distribution: na
Lines: 34

In article <11810@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: free moral agency
>Date: 14 Apr 93 21:41:31 GMT
>In article <healta.133.734810202@saturn.wwc.edu> healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>>
>>In the Old testement, Satan is RARELY mentioned, if at all. 
>
>
>  Huh?  Doesn't the SDA Bible contain the book of Job?
>
>>This is why there is suffering in the world, we are caught inthe crossfire. 
>>and sometimes, innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt.
>>That's my opinion and I hope I cleared up a few things.
>>
>
>  Seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has "got some
>  'splainin' to do" then.  Or did he just create Satan for shits and
>  giggles?
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't say it NEVER mentioned Satan, I said it RARELY, if at all.  Please 
excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence.

Tammy
P.S I'm soory if I sound cranky.  I apoplogize now before anyone's feelings 
get hurt.

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re free moral agency
Lines 34
Organization Walla Walla College
Distribution na
Lines 34

In article 11810viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re free moral agency
Date 14 Apr 93 214131 GMT
In article  healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes

In the Old testement Satan is RARELY mentioned if at all 


  Huh  Doesnt the SDA Bible contain the book of Job

This is why there is suffering in the world we are caught inthe crossfire 
and sometimes innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt
Thats my opinion and I hope I cleared up a few things


  Seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some
  splainin to do then  Or did he just create Satan for shits and
  giggles

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didnt say it NEVER mentioned Satan I said it RARELY if at all  Please 
excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence

Tammy
PS Im soory if I sound cranky  I apoplogize now before anyones feelings 
get hurt

preprocess doc  From: chico@ccsun.unicamp.br (Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues)
Subject: New planet/Kuiper object found?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 28


	Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object,
beyond Pluto's orbit, was found by an observatory at Hawaii. They
named the object Karla.

	The program said the object wasn't a gaseous giant planet, and
should be composed by rocks and ices.

	Can someone confirm these information? Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object?

	Thanks in advance.

	Francisco.

-----------------------=====================================----the stars,----
|    ._,               | Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues    |       o   o     |
|  ,_| |._/\           |                                   |     o         o |
|  |       |o/^^~-._   | COTUCA-Colegio Tecnico da UNICAMP |   o             |
|/-'    BRASIL      | ~|                                   |  o      o o     |
|\__/|_            /'  | Depto de Processamento de Dados   |  o    o  o  o   |
|      \__  Cps   | .  |                                   |   o  o  o    o  |
|        |   * __/'    | InterNet : chico@ccsun.unicamp.br |     o o      o  |
|        >   /'        |            cotuca@ccvax.unicamp.br|             o   |
|      /'   /'         | Fone/Fax : 55-0192-32-9519        | o         o     |
|     ~~^\/'           | Campinas - SP - Brasil            |    o   o        |
-----------------------=====================================----like dust.----


after prepro  From chicoccsununicampbr Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues
Subject New planetKuiper object found
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 28


	Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object
beyond Plutos orbit was found by an observatory at Hawaii They
named the object Karla

	The program said the object wasnt a gaseous giant planet and
should be composed by rocks and ices

	Can someone confirm these information Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object

	Thanks in advance

	Francisco

the stars
    _                Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues           o   o     
  _ _\                                                   o         o 
         o^^_    COTUCAColegio Tecnico da UNICAMP    o             
    BRASIL                                            o      o o     
\___               Depto de Processamento de Dados     o    o  o  o   
      \__  Cps                                            o  o  o    o  
            __     InterNet  chicoccsununicampbr      o o      o  
                               cotucaccvaxunicampbr             o   
                   FoneFax  550192329519         o         o     
     ^\            Campinas  SP  Brasil                o   o        
like dust


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 35

In article <1rd1g0$ckb@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>How will said re-boost be done?
>Grapple, HST,  stow it in Cargo bay,  do OMS burn to high altitude,  
>unstow  HST,   repair  gyros,  costar install,  fix solar arrays,
>then return to earth?

Actually, the reboost will probably be done last, so that there is a fuel
reserve during the EVAs (in case they have to chase down an adrift
astronaut or something like that).  But yes, you've got the idea -- the
reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up.

>My guess is  why  bother with  usingthe shuttle to reboost?
>why not  grapple,  do all said fixes,   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
>thruster module  to  HST,   then let it make the re-boost...

Somebody has to build that thruster module; it's not an off-the-shelf
item.  Nor is it a trivial piece of hardware, since it has to include
attitude control (HST's own is not strong enough to compensate for things
like thruster imbalance), guidance (there is no provision to feed gyro
data from HST's own gyros to an external device), and separation (you
don't want it left attached afterward, if only to avoid possible
contamination after the telescope lid is opened again).  You also get
to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is
done and HST is inaccessible to the shuttle (the lid stays closed for
the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from
thrusters and the like).

The original plan was to use the Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle to do the
reboost.  The OMV was planned to be a sort of small space tug, well
suited to precisely this sort of job.  Unfortunately, it was costing
a lot to develop and the list of definitely-known applications was
relatively short, so it got cancelled.
-- 
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS.    - Dick Dunn  |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 35

In article 1rd1g0ckbaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
How will said reboost be done
Grapple HST  stow it in Cargo bay  do OMS burn to high altitude  
unstow  HST   repair  gyros  costar install  fix solar arrays
then return to earth

Actually the reboost will probably be done last so that there is a fuel
reserve during the EVAs in case they have to chase down an adrift
astronaut or something like that  But yes youve got the idea  the
reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up

My guess is  why  bother with  usingthe shuttle to reboost
why not  grapple  do all said fixes   bolt a small  liquid  fueled
thruster module  to  HST   then let it make the reboost

Somebody has to build that thruster module its not an offtheshelf
item  Nor is it a trivial piece of hardware since it has to include
attitude control HSTs own is not strong enough to compensate for things
like thruster imbalance guidance there is no provision to feed gyro
data from HSTs own gyros to an external device and separation you
dont want it left attached afterward if only to avoid possible
contamination after the telescope lid is opened again  You also get
to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is
done and HST is inaccessible to the shuttle the lid stays closed for
the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from
thrusters and the like

The original plan was to use the Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle to do the
reboost  The OMV was planned to be a sort of small space tug well
suited to precisely this sort of job  Unfortunately it was costing
a lot to develop and the list of definitelyknown applications was
relatively short so it got cancelled
 
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision    Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS     Dick Dunn    henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. No
>mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were.

Confident, or merely crazed?  That desert sun :-)


>successful we were.  (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
>fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)
>

Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled.  Didn't one of them have a
total electrical failure in flight?  Was there machanical backup systems?

|
|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing.  On the other
|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
|can't do.
|

What do you mean?  Overstress the wings,  and they fail at teh joints?

You'll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands.


pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article  shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes
Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s No
mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were

Confident or merely crazed  That desert sun 


successful we were  Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog


Gee I thought the X15 was Cable controlled  Didnt one of them have a
total electrical failure in flight  Was there machanical backup systems


The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing  On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do


What do you mean  Overstress the wings  and they fail at teh joints

Youll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands


pat


preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Lines: 2

YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!!  BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!

after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From 
Subject YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Lines 2

YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD  BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Plutonium based Nuclear Power plants.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

Todays New York TImes just wrote about a pact being negotiated 
between us and the Russians  to develope  High Temperature
Gas Cooled Fission Reactors using Re-Cycled Weapons Grade plutonium
from Warhead stockpiles.   THe fuel will be pelletized in ceramic
for safety,  and then after depletion will be sufficiently
contaminated with by-products to make extraction of the remaining
plutonium hazardous enough to deter re-use.

Apparently the project will be led by General Atomics of San Diego
with funding from the US GOvernment.  THe pilot plant will be built
and operated by the russians.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Plutonium based Nuclear Power plants
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 13
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

Todays New York TImes just wrote about a pact being negotiated 
between us and the Russians  to develope  High Temperature
Gas Cooled Fission Reactors using ReCycled Weapons Grade plutonium
from Warhead stockpiles   THe fuel will be pelletized in ceramic
for safety  and then after depletion will be sufficiently
contaminated with byproducts to make extraction of the remaining
plutonium hazardous enough to deter reuse

Apparently the project will be led by General Atomics of San Diego
with funding from the US GOvernment  THe pilot plant will be built
and operated by the russians

pat

preprocess doc  From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
Lines: 38
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 38

In article <1993Apr14.213356.22176@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>From: snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder )
>Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 21:33:56 GMT
>In article <healta.56.734556346@saturn.wwc.edu> healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>Bobby,
>>
>>I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named 
>>Ellen G. White.  I hope that what she said will help you to edit your 
>>remarks in this group in the future.
>>
>>"Do not set yourself as a standard.  Do not make your opinions, your views 
>>of duty, your interpretations of scripture, a criterion for others and in 
>>your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal."
>>                         Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p. 124
>>
>>I hope quoting this doesn't make the atheists gag, but I think Ellen White 
>>put it better than I could.
>> 
>>Tammy
>
>Point?
>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder
>
My point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe.  Saying 
that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and 
counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups.  I see in your posts a 
spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don'
t believe exactly as you do.  If you're here to try to convert the atheists 
here, you're failing miserably.  Who wants to be in position of constantly 
defending themselves agaist insulting attacks, like you seem to like to do?!
I'm sorry you're so blind that you didn't get the messgae in the quote, 
everyone else has seemed to.

Tammy

after prepro  From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Lines 38
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 38

In article 1993Apr1421335622176ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes
From snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder 
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Date Wed 14 Apr 1993 213356 GMT
In article  healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
Bobby

I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named 
Ellen G White  I hope that what she said will help you to edit your 
remarks in this group in the future

Do not set yourself as a standard  Do not make your opinions your views 
of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in 
your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal
                         Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p 124

I hope quoting this doesnt make the atheists gag but I think Ellen White 
put it better than I could
 
Tammy

Point

Peace

Bobby Mozumder

My point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe  Saying 
that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and 
counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups  I see in your posts a 
spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don
t believe exactly as you do  If youre here to try to convert the atheists 
here youre failing miserably  Who wants to be in position of constantly 
defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem to like to do
Im sorry youre so blind that you didnt get the messgae in the quote 
everyone else has seemed to

Tammy

preprocess doc  Subject: Quotation? Lowest bidder...
From: bioccnt@otago.ac.nz
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
Nntp-Posting-Host: thorin.otago.ac.nz
Lines: 12


Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation? 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
bidder....." 

Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated. 

Clive Trotman


after prepro  Subject Quotation Lowest bidder
From bioccntotagoacnz
Organization University of Otago Dunedin New Zealand
NntpPostingHost thorinotagoacnz
Lines 12


Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation 

He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder 

Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated 

Clive Trotman


preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 21

In article <sandvik-140493185248@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>
>This is the reason I like the controversy of post-modernism, the
>issues of polarities -- evil and good -- are just artificial 
>constructs, and they fall apart during a closer inspection.
>
>The more I look into the notion of a constant struggle between
>the evil and good forces, the more it sounds like a metaphor
>that people just assume without closer inspection.
>

  More info please.  I'm not well exposed to these ideas.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 21

In article  sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes

This is the reason I like the controversy of postmodernism the
issues of polarities  evil and good  are just artificial 
constructs and they fall apart during a closer inspection

The more I look into the notion of a constant struggle between
the evil and good forces the more it sounds like a metaphor
that people just assume without closer inspection


  More info please  Im not well exposed to these ideas

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 11

In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>of the "fasad" ruling.

Please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again.

/---- John David Munch ------------------ jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu ----\
|...." the heart can change, be full of hate, or love. If people are allowed|
|to base their lives through their hearts, anything can happen. A dangerous |
|situation, in my opinion." -Bobby Mozumder describing problems with atheism|

after prepro  From jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 11

In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling

Please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again

 John David Munch  jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu \
 the heart can change be full of hate or love If people are allowed
to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen A dangerous 
situation in my opinion Bobby Mozumder describing problems with atheism

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 29

In <ednclark.734054731@kraken> ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark) writes:

>cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:

>>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation 
>>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and 
>>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis. 
>>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people 
>>experience.  

[...]
>Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
>are far too complicated for us to control. We just have to hold on to the
>panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. But one
>things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
>due solely to sex out of marriage.

Note that I _never_ said that depression and the destruction of the
nuclear family is due _solely_ to extra-marital sex.  I specifically
said that it was "a prime cause" of this, not "the prime cause" or "the
only cause" of this -- I recognize that there are probably other factors
too, but I think that extra-marital sex and subsequent destabilization
of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in
psychological problems, including depression, in the West in the 20th
century.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 29

In  ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark writes

cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes

Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation 
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and 
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis 
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people 
experience  

[]
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing But one
things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage

Note that I _never_ said that depression and the destruction of the
nuclear family is due _solely_ to extramarital sex  I specifically
said that it was a prime cause of this not the prime cause or the
only cause of this  I recognize that there are probably other factors
too but I think that extramarital sex and subsequent destabilization
of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in
psychological problems including depression in the West in the 20th
century

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Advertising (1 of 2)
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 81

Brian Yamauchi asks: [Regarding orbital billboards...]
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
  
    Well, I had been collecting data for next edition of the
Commercial Space News/Space Technology Investor... To summarize:
  
SPACE ADVERTISING
    First, advertising on space vehicles is not new -- it is very
common practice to put the cooperating organization's logos on the
space launch vehicle.  For example, the latest GPS launcher had the
(very prominent) logos on its side of
   - McDonnell Douglas (the Delta launcher)
   - Rockwell International (who built the GPS satellite)
   - USAF (who paid for the satellite and launch), and
   - the GPS/Navstar program office
   This has not been considered "paid advertising" but rather
"public relations", since the restrictions have been such that only
organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the
side, and there was no money exchanged for this.  [However, putting
a 10' high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras
is "advertising" as much as it is "public relations", in my
opinion.]  [And by the way, I note that the DC-X test vehicle has
rather prominent McDonnell-Douglas and SDIO logos on the side...]
   There have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials
for use of space vehicles for advertising, or placing large
advertising signs in orbit.  On the shuttle, for example, I know of
several serious studies in the early and mid 1980's which looked at
putting logos on the external tank, or on the sides of the payload
bay.  These ventures would be different than "public relations", in
that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms
participating on that flight, and would involve payment of sums for
the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization.  (For
example, painting the ET to look like a Pepsi can, or putting a
Disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras
would scan past it.)
  
ADVERTS ON LAUNCH VEHICLES
   The first paid advertising was done on a Soviet launcher in about
1990, when several non-involved foreign organizations were allowed
to pay to put their logos on a Proton launch.  (An Italian shoe
company was one of the first advertisers, I remember.)  Similarly,
Soviet cosmonauts on Mir made a paid advertisement for the last
Olympic games, and have gleefully shown banners and other items from
participating firms and organizations.  Mars candy bars, for
example, got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the
British visiting cosmonaut to Mir.
   Now US firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch
vehicles.  The upcoming Conestoga launch (in June) putting the COMET
recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements
on the side, for Arnold Schwarzenegger's upcoming movie "The Last
Action Hero".  Besides the usual logos of the participating
organizations, Columbia pictures has paid $500,000 to put ads on the
main fuselage of the mission's Conestoga rocket, its booster
rockets, and on the COMET payload, which will orbit the Earth for
one month.  A concept for this advertising display was published in
Space News magazine a couple of months ago.
   (As a side note: Robert Lorsch, an advertising executive, is
talking about suing NASA.  He charges NASA with appropriating an idea he
created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising
sponsorships on NASA spacecraft as a way to get funding for the
space program.  Lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on
the upcoming COMET, NASA violated an agreement that it "would not use
his idea without him being the exclusive representative for NASA and
receiving compensation."   This is being disputed, since the launch
is a "commercial launch" and NASA is receiving none of the
advertising revenues, but the funding for the COMET program is
coming from NASA.)
  
ORBITAL "BILLBOARDS"
   Orbital "billboards" have been the staple of science fiction for
some time.  Arthur C. Clarke wrote about one example, and Robert
Heinlein described another in "The Man Who Sold the Moon".  Several
different potential projects have been developed, although none have
been implemented, but the most real prior to 1993 being the "Eiffel
II" project, which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in
orbit to celebrate the French Republic's Bi-centennial.
                                                (cont)

--- Maximus 2.01wb

after prepro  From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Advertising 1 of 2
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 81

Brian Yamauchi asks [Regarding orbital billboards]
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip  How serious is this project  Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
  
    Well I had been collecting data for next edition of the
Commercial Space NewsSpace Technology Investor To summarize
  
SPACE ADVERTISING
    First advertising on space vehicles is not new  it is very
common practice to put the cooperating organizations logos on the
space launch vehicle  For example the latest GPS launcher had the
very prominent logos on its side of
    McDonnell Douglas the Delta launcher
    Rockwell International who built the GPS satellite
    USAF who paid for the satellite and launch and
    the GPSNavstar program office
   This has not been considered paid advertising but rather
public relations since the restrictions have been such that only
organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the
side and there was no money exchanged for this  [However putting
a 10 high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras
is advertising as much as it is public relations in my
opinion]  [And by the way I note that the DCX test vehicle has
rather prominent McDonnellDouglas and SDIO logos on the side]
   There have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials
for use of space vehicles for advertising or placing large
advertising signs in orbit  On the shuttle for example I know of
several serious studies in the early and mid 1980s which looked at
putting logos on the external tank or on the sides of the payload
bay  These ventures would be different than public relations in
that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms
participating on that flight and would involve payment of sums for
the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization  For
example painting the ET to look like a Pepsi can or putting a
Disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras
would scan past it
  
ADVERTS ON LAUNCH VEHICLES
   The first paid advertising was done on a Soviet launcher in about
1990 when several noninvolved foreign organizations were allowed
to pay to put their logos on a Proton launch  An Italian shoe
company was one of the first advertisers I remember  Similarly
Soviet cosmonauts on Mir made a paid advertisement for the last
Olympic games and have gleefully shown banners and other items from
participating firms and organizations  Mars candy bars for
example got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the
British visiting cosmonaut to Mir
   Now US firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch
vehicles  The upcoming Conestoga launch in June putting the COMET
recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements
on the side for Arnold Schwarzeneggers upcoming movie The Last
Action Hero  Besides the usual logos of the participating
organizations Columbia pictures has paid 500000 to put ads on the
main fuselage of the missions Conestoga rocket its booster
rockets and on the COMET payload which will orbit the Earth for
one month  A concept for this advertising display was published in
Space News magazine a couple of months ago
   As a side note Robert Lorsch an advertising executive is
talking about suing NASA  He charges NASA with appropriating an idea he
created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising
sponsorships on NASA spacecraft as a way to get funding for the
space program  Lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on
the upcoming COMET NASA violated an agreement that it would not use
his idea without him being the exclusive representative for NASA and
receiving compensation   This is being disputed since the launch
is a commercial launch and NASA is receiving none of the
advertising revenues but the funding for the COMET program is
coming from NASA
  
ORBITAL BILLBOARDS
   Orbital billboards have been the staple of science fiction for
some time  Arthur C Clarke wrote about one example and Robert
Heinlein described another in The Man Who Sold the Moon  Several
different potential projects have been developed although none have
been implemented but the most real prior to 1993 being the Eiffel
II project which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in
orbit to celebrate the French Republics Bicentennial
                                                cont

 Maximus 201wb

preprocess doc  From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu

Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
Engineer" position?  Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?

In my opinion, this seems like a Bad Thing, at least on the surface.
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster, better, and cheaper.  It's unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position.

Does anyone know what his new duties will be?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


after prepro  From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject Griffin  Office of Exploration RIP
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu

Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position  Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI

In my opinion this seems like a Bad Thing at least on the surface
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster better and cheaper  Its unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position

Does anyone know what his new duties will be

_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________


preprocess doc  From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Re: Vulcan?  (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 31

>In article <VNci2B7w165w@inqmind.bison.mb.ca> victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking) writes:
>>From: victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking)
>>Subject: Vulcan?  (No, not the guy with the ears!)
>>Date: Sun, 04 Apr 93 19:31:54 CDT
>>Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
>> 
>>All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
>>drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's 
>>orbit.  Beyond that, I have no other info.
>>
>>Does anyone know anything more specific?
>>

As I heard the story, before Albert came up the the theory
o'relativity and warped space, nobody could account for
Mercury's orbit.  It ran a little fast (I think) for simple
Newtonian physics.  With the success in finding Neptune to
explain the odd movments of Uranus, it was postulated that there
might be another inner planet to explain Mercury's orbit.  

It's unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the
sun than Mercury.  I'm sure we would have spotted it by now.
Perhaps some professionals can confirm that.


/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\ 
| Heaven, n.:                                                   |
|   A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk | 
|   of their own personal affairs, and the good listen with     |
|   attention while you expound your own.                       |
|                  Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"     |

after prepro  From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Re Vulcan  No not the guy with the ears
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 31

In article  victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking writes
From victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking
Subject Vulcan  No not the guy with the ears
Date Sun 04 Apr 93 193154 CDT
Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
 
All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at 
drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys 
orbit  Beyond that I have no other info

Does anyone know anything more specific


As I heard the story before Albert came up the the theory
orelativity and warped space nobody could account for
Mercurys orbit  It ran a little fast I think for simple
Newtonian physics  With the success in finding Neptune to
explain the odd movments of Uranus it was postulated that there
might be another inner planet to explain Mercurys orbit  

Its unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the
sun than Mercury  Im sure we would have spotted it by now
Perhaps some professionals can confirm that


 James T Green  jgreenoboecalpolyedu \ 
 Heaven n                                                   
   A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk  
   of their own personal affairs and the good listen with     
   attention while you expound your own                       
                  Ambrose Bierce The Devils Dictionary     

preprocess doc  From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 16

In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:

>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida? 

Why would you want to do that? The goal is to do it cheaper (remember,
this isn't government). Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad,
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility.

  Allen

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

after prepro  From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 16

In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes

So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida 

Why would you want to do that The goal is to do it cheaper remember
this isnt government Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility

  Allen

 

 Lady Astor   Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee   
 W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it             
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX

preprocess doc  Organization: Penn State University
From: <MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Distribution: world
 <1pan4f$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1q0fngINNahu@gap.caltech.edu>
 <C5C9FA.6zH@acsu.buffalo.edu> <1qabe7INNaff@gap.caltech.edu>
 <1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu>
Lines: 11

In article <1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu>, SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu
(SCOTT D. SAUYET) says:

>Are these his final words?  (And how many here would find that
>appropriate?)  Or is it just that finals got in the way?

>Keep your fingers crossed!

Why should I keep my fingers crossed? I doubt it would do anything. :)

Martin Schulte

after prepro  Organization Penn State University
From 
Subject Re  1q0fngINNahugapcaltechedu
  1qabe7INNaffgapcaltechedu
 1993Apr15150938975newswesleyanedu
Lines 11

In article 1993Apr15150938975newswesleyanedu SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu
SCOTT D SAUYET says

Are these his final words  And how many here would find that
appropriate  Or is it just that finals got in the way

Keep your fingers crossed

Why should I keep my fingers crossed I doubt it would do anything 

Martin Schulte

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism : Evidence?
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 26

In article <1qid04$fct@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>
>I don't see anything special about theism in general that makes it a 
>particular hazard (more so than say, stupidity, anarchy, or patriotism).   
>Of course, it depends on the religion, but I see nothing about believing 
>in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia, genocide, 
>etc.  

  If the emphasis is on the "in general", then of course you're
  correct, since you haven't really said anything.  If we restrict
  our observations to practiced religions, there are lots of
  examples of god mandated genocide.  Just ask the Canaanites.  The
  point is that if you believe in a god, and if you believe he has
  ordered you to eliminate an entire race, you will likely make the
  attempt.  After all, if it was OK in the past, it could surely be
  OK in the present.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Theism  Evidence
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 26

In article 1qid04fcthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes

I dont see anything special about theism in general that makes it a 
particular hazard more so than say stupidity anarchy or patriotism   
Of course it depends on the religion but I see nothing about believing 
in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia genocide 
etc  

  If the emphasis is on the in general then of course youre
  correct since you havent really said anything  If we restrict
  our observations to practiced religions there are lots of
  examples of god mandated genocide  Just ask the Canaanites  The
  point is that if you believe in a god and if you believe he has
  ordered you to eliminate an entire race you will likely make the
  attempt  After all if it was OK in the past it could surely be
  OK in the present


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 11

In article <C5sx3y.3z9.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:
>On the other hand, if Apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks
>in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more
>than only 1 billion to get any takers?

Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
technology base... and on government contracts.  Just doing it privately,
rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 11

In article  18084TMmsuedu Tom writes
On the other hand if Apollo cost 25billion for a few days or weeks
in space in 1970 dollars then wont the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers

Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts  Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: pearson@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (N. Shirlene Pearson)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Nntp-Posting-Host: wren
Organization: Applied Research Labs, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 13

jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:


>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.

Would you mind posting the responses you get?
I am also interested, and there may be others.

Thanks,

N. Shirlene Pearson
pearson@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu

after prepro  From pearsontsdarlututexasedu N Shirlene Pearson
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
NntpPostingHost wren
Organization Applied Research Labs University of Texas at Austin
Lines 13

jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes


Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times

Would you mind posting the responses you get
I am also interested and there may be others

Thanks

N Shirlene Pearson
pearsontitantsdarlututexasedu

preprocess doc  From: william.vaughan@uuserv.cc.utah.edu (WILLIAM DANIEL VAUGHAN)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Lines: 9
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center

In article <pww-120493020107@spac-at1-59.rice.edu> pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker) writes:
>From: pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker)
>Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 07:06:33 GMT
>In article <1qaqi1INNgje@gap.caltech.edu>, werdna@cco.caltech.edu (Andrew
>Tong) wrote:
>> 

so what

after prepro  From williamvaughanuuservccutahedu WILLIAM DANIEL VAUGHAN
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
Lines 9
Organization University of Utah Computer Center

In article  pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker writes
From pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
Date Mon 12 Apr 1993 070633 GMT
In article 1qaqi1INNgjegapcaltechedu werdnaccocaltechedu Andrew
Tong wrote
 

so what

preprocess doc  From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Article-I.D.: aio.1993Apr6.134526.14966
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
Lines: 17
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

John Elson (jelson@rcnext.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Has anyone ever heard of a food product called "Space Food Sticks?" 

I remember those awful things.  They were dry and crumbly, and I
recall asking my third-grade teacher, Miss G'Francisco, how they
kept the crumbs from floating around in zero-G.  She had no clue.
I have not seen anything like them in today's space program.

Some Apollo technology is best forgotten.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

                  "HERE MEN FROM THE PLANET EARTH
                    FIRST SET FOOT UPON THE MOON
                           JULY 1969, A.D.
                  WE CAME IN PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND."

after prepro  From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re space food sticks
ArticleID aio1993Apr613452614966
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
Lines 17
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]

John Elson jelsonrcnextcsouiucedu wrote
 Has anyone ever heard of a food product called Space Food Sticks 

I remember those awful things  They were dry and crumbly and I
recall asking my thirdgrade teacher Miss GFrancisco how they
kept the crumbs from floating around in zeroG  She had no clue
I have not seen anything like them in todays space program

Some Apollo technology is best forgotten

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

                  HERE MEN FROM THE PLANET EARTH
                    FIRST SET FOOT UPON THE MOON
                           JULY 1969 AD
                  WE CAME IN PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND

preprocess doc  From: hathaway@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Distribution: na
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines: 101

>Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space
>Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
>
 (excerpts from posting on this topic) 

>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au 
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:
>
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.  
>... 
>>... the real purpose of the project is to help the environment! 
>>The platform will carry ozone monitors 
>
>... 
>I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
>effect on the overall sky brightness.  Venus is visible during the day,
>but nobody complains about that.  Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
>be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if
>it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time
>as it goes zipping across the sky.
>

(I've seen satellites at midnight - they're not only in twilight.) :o) 

>...
>
>From the book "Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla" by John J. O'Neill:
>
>"This remarkable conductivity of gases, including the air, at low
>pressures, led Tesla to suggest, in a published statement in 1914, a
>system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat
>the whole Earth, with its surrounding atmosphere, as if it were a
>single lamp....  
>The whole Earth would be transformed into a giant lamp, with the night 
>sky completely illuminated.  ... making the night as bright as day."
> 

Now my comments: 

I'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly 
practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for 
research activities by professional astronomers.  Some of what I 
would complain about is rooted in aesthetics.  Many readers may 
never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred - 
unsullied by the actions of humans.  The space between the stars 
as profoundly black as an abyss can be.  With full horizons and 
a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time 
- none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man. 
Any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men.  
Whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there 
and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief 
in an afterlife.  

The Space Age changed all that.  The effect of the first Sputniks 
and Echo, etc. on this view could only happen once.  To see a light 
crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people 
is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating 
the scales involved is also awesome - even if the few hundreds or 
thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe.  
But there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky. 

Yes, I know aircraft are almost always in sight.  I have to live 
in a very populated area (6 miles from an international airport 
currently) where light pollution on the ground is ghastly.  The 
impact of humans is so extreme here - virtually no place exists 
that has not been shaped, sculpted, modified, trashed or whipped 
into shape by the hands of man.  In some places the only life 
forms larger than bacteria are humans, cockroaches, and squirrels 
(or rats).  I visited some friends up in the Appalacian mountains 
one weekend, "getting away from it all" (paved roads, indoor plumbing, 
malls, ...) and it felt good for a while - then I quickly noticed 
the hollow was directly under the main flight path into Dulles - 60-80 
miles to the east.  (Their 'security light' didn't help matters 
much either.)  But I've heard the artic wilderness gets lots of 
high air traffic.  So I know the skies are rarely perfect. 

But there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't 
fouled in some way.  (I mean they've been TRYING this forever - 
like, concerning Tesla's idea to banish night, - wow!)  I don't watch 
commercial television, but I can imagine just how disgusting beer, 
truck, or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high.  
If ya' gotta make a buck on it (displaying products in heaven), at 
least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last
beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life.  

To be open about this though, I have here my listing of the passage 
of HST in the evening sky for this weekend - tonight Friday at 
8:25 p.m. EDT it will reach an altitude of 20.1 degrees on the 
local meridian from Baltimore vicinity.  I'll be trying to see it 
if I can - it _is_ my mealticket after all.  So I suppose I could 
be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky 
while complaining about billboards proposed by others.  Be that 
as it may, I think my point about a desire for beauty is valid, 
even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved. 

Regards, 
Wm. Hathaway 
Baltimore MD 

after prepro  From hathawaystsciedu
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Distribution na
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines 101

Newsgroups sciastroscispace
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky

 excerpts from posting on this topic 

In article  enzoresearchcanonozau 
Enzo Liguori writes

Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit  
 
 the real purpose of the project is to help the environment 
The platform will carry ozone monitors 

 
I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness  Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that  Besides its in LEO so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if
it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky


Ive seen satellites at midnight  theyre not only in twilight o 



From the book Prodigal Genius The Life of Nikola Tesla by John J ONeill

This remarkable conductivity of gases including the air at low
pressures led Tesla to suggest in a published statement in 1914 a
system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat
the whole Earth with its surrounding atmosphere as if it were a
single lamp  
The whole Earth would be transformed into a giant lamp with the night 
sky completely illuminated   making the night as bright as day
 

Now my comments 

Id like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly 
practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for 
research activities by professional astronomers  Some of what I 
would complain about is rooted in aesthetics  Many readers may 
never have known a time where the heavens were pristine  sacred  
unsullied by the actions of humans  The space between the stars 
as profoundly black as an abyss can be  With full horizons and 
a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time 
 none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man 
Any lights were supplied solely by nature uncorruptable by men  
Whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there 
and becoming immortal as the stars whether by apotheosis or a belief 
in an afterlife  

The Space Age changed all that  The effect of the first Sputniks 
and Echo etc on this view could only happen once  To see a light 
crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people 
is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating 
the scales involved is also awesome  even if the few hundreds or 
thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe  
But there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky 

Yes I know aircraft are almost always in sight  I have to live 
in a very populated area 6 miles from an international airport 
currently where light pollution on the ground is ghastly  The 
impact of humans is so extreme here  virtually no place exists 
that has not been shaped sculpted modified trashed or whipped 
into shape by the hands of man  In some places the only life 
forms larger than bacteria are humans cockroaches and squirrels 
or rats  I visited some friends up in the Appalacian mountains 
one weekend getting away from it all paved roads indoor plumbing 
malls  and it felt good for a while  then I quickly noticed 
the hollow was directly under the main flight path into Dulles  6080 
miles to the east  Their security light didnt help matters 
much either  But Ive heard the artic wilderness gets lots of 
high air traffic  So I know the skies are rarely perfect 

But there is still this desire to see a place that man hasnt 
fouled in some way  I mean theyve been TRYING this forever  
like concerning Teslas idea to banish night  wow  I dont watch 
commercial television but I can imagine just how disgusting beer 
truck or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high  
If ya gotta make a buck on it displaying products in heaven at 
least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last
beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life  

To be open about this though I have here my listing of the passage 
of HST in the evening sky for this weekend  tonight Friday at 
825 pm EDT it will reach an altitude of 201 degrees on the 
local meridian from Baltimore vicinity  Ill be trying to see it 
if I can  it _is_ my mealticket after all  So I suppose I could 
be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky 
while complaining about billboards proposed by others  Be that 
as it may I think my point about a desire for beauty is valid 
even if it cant ever be perfectly achieved 

Regards 
Wm Hathaway 
Baltimore MD 

preprocess doc  From: jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Keywords: slander calumny
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 60
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Apr16.222525.16024@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>In article <1993Apr16.171722.159590@zeus.calpoly.edu>,
>jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>> >P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>> >applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>> >of the "fasad" ruling.
>> 
>> Please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again.
>
>My apologies. "Shatim", I believe, refers to slandering or spreading
>slander and lies about the Prophets(a.s) - any of the Prophets.

Basically, any prophet I've ever dealt with has either been busy 
hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in 
Florida.  Then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets
and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it.

>It's a kind of willful caulmny and "cursing" that's indicated by the
>word. This is the best explanation I can come up with off the top
>of my head - I'll try and look up a more technical definition when I
>have the time.

Never mind that, but let me tell you about this Chevelle I bought 
from this dude (you guessed it, a prophet) named Mohammed.  I've
got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks, then Manny, 
my mechanic, tells me it was loaded with sawdust!  Take a guess
whether "Mohammed" was anywhere to be found.  I don't think so.

>
>"Fasad" is a little more difficult to describe. Again, this is not
>a technical definition - I'll try and get that later. Literally,

Oh, Mohammed!

>the word "fasad" means mischief. But it's a mischief on the order of
>magnitude indicated by the word "corruption". It's when someone who
>is doing something wrong to begin with, seeks to escalate the hurt,

Yeah, you, Mohammed!

>disorder, concern, harm etc. (the mischief) initially caused by their 
>actions. The "wrong" is specifically related to attacks against
>"God and His Messenger" and mischief, corruption, disorder etc.

You slimy mass of pond scum!

>resulting from that. The attack need not be a physical attack and there
>are different levels of penalty proscribed, depending on the extent
>of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to 
>"make hay" of the situation. The severest punishment is death.

Yeah, right!  You're the one should be watching your butt.  You and
your buddy Allah.  The stereo he sold me croaked after two days.
Your ass is grass!

Jim

Yeah, that's right, Jim.

after prepro  From jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Keywords slander calumny
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 60
NNTPPostingHost carsonuwashingtonedu

In article 1993Apr1622252516024bnrca Rashid writes
In article 1993Apr16171722159590zeuscalpolyedu
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch wrote
 
 In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
 PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
 applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
 of the fasad ruling
 
 Please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again

My apologies Shatim I believe refers to slandering or spreading
slander and lies about the Prophetsas  any of the Prophets

Basically any prophet Ive ever dealt with has either been busy 
hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in 
Florida  Then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets
and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it

Its a kind of willful caulmny and cursing thats indicated by the
word This is the best explanation I can come up with off the top
of my head  Ill try and look up a more technical definition when I
have the time

Never mind that but let me tell you about this Chevelle I bought 
from this dude you guessed it a prophet named Mohammed  Ive
got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then Manny 
my mechanic tells me it was loaded with sawdust  Take a guess
whether Mohammed was anywhere to be found  I dont think so


Fasad is a little more difficult to describe Again this is not
a technical definition  Ill try and get that later Literally

Oh Mohammed

the word fasad means mischief But its a mischief on the order of
magnitude indicated by the word corruption Its when someone who
is doing something wrong to begin with seeks to escalate the hurt

Yeah you Mohammed

disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused by their 
actions The wrong is specifically related to attacks against
God and His Messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc

You slimy mass of pond scum

resulting from that The attack need not be a physical attack and there
are different levels of penalty proscribed depending on the extent
of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to 
make hay of the situation The severest punishment is death

Yeah right  Youre the one should be watching your butt  You and
your buddy Allah  The stereo he sold me croaked after two days
Your ass is grass

Jim

Yeah thats right Jim

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
>>to be moral one?
>I like to think that many things are possible.   Explain to me
>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.

For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...

>>That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
>>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard 
>>it?
>Weaker than that.   There must be the possibility that the
>organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can
>consider alternatives.

So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs?  And, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence?
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but they
don't.  Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
to be moral one
I like to think that many things are possible   Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen

For example if it were instinctive not to murder

That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard 
it
Weaker than that   There must be the possibility that the
organism  its not just people we are talking about  can
consider alternatives

So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs  And how much emphasis do you place on intelligence
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they
dont  Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do

keith

preprocess doc  From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: First Spacewalk
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13

At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.

Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?

Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?

-- 
* Fred Baube (tm)         *  In times of intellectual ferment,
* baube@optiplan.fi       * advantage to him with the intellect
* #include <disclaimer.h> * most fermented !
* How is Frank Zappa doing ?
* May '68, Paris: It's Retrospective Time !!  

after prepro  From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject First Spacewalk
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13

At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk 
Alexei Leonov  was a staged fake

Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged 

Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination 

 
 Fred Baube tm           In times of intellectual ferment
 baubeoptiplanfi        advantage to him with the intellect
 include   most fermented 
 How is Frank Zappa doing 
 May 68 Paris Its Retrospective Time   

preprocess doc  From: jbatka@desire.wright.edu
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters.  WHere  are they.
Organization:  Wright State University 
Lines: 16

I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
event and the 1/r^2 law.  So, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume
some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation),
could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
events happening much closer to us?  The even distribution could
be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays 
being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy.

Just some idle babbling,
-- 

   Jim Batka  | Work Email:  BATKAJ@CCMAIL.DAYTON.SAIC.COM | Elvis is
              | Home Email:  JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU      |   DEAD!

    64 years is 33,661,440 minutes ...
             and a minute is a LONG time!  - Beatles:  _ Yellow Submarine_

after prepro  From jbatkadesirewrightedu
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters  WHere  are they
Organization  Wright State University 
Lines 16

I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
event and the 1r^2 law  So if the 1r^2 law is incorrect assume
some unknown material [dark matter] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation
could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
events happening much closer to us  The even distribution could
be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays 
being shorter then 12 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy

Just some idle babbling
 

   Jim Batka   Work Email  BATKAJCCMAILDAYTONSAICCOM  Elvis is
               Home Email  JBATKADESIREWRIGHTEDU         DEAD

    64 years is 33661440 minutes 
             and a minute is a LONG time   Beatles  _ Yellow Submarine_

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Apr6.061329.25582@den.mmc.com>, seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes...
>baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>>According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>>temporarily in orbit around Jupiter.  The comet had apparently made a
>>close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>>comet.
> 
>Ooooh -- who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
>check out a comet TOO?!?

Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973.  Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations.  The orbital trajectory for Comet
Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1993Apr606132925582denmmccom sealepossumdenmmccom Eric H Seale writes
baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
temporarily in orbit around Jupiter  The comet had apparently made a
close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
comet
 
Ooooh  who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO

Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973  Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations  The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 51

In <11836@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike 
Cobb) writes:
>>In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) 
writes:
>>
>>
>>>  Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance.  Ignorance of the
>>>  existence of any god.  Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
>>>  because of their pride" mistake.
>>
>>How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
>>be wrong 
>>to fall into the trap that you mentioned? 
>>

>  If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake.  That
>  he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
>  undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.

What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your 
choices up to you?

>  As for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that I don't
>  believe in god because I do not wish to.  Unless you can know my
>  motivations better than I do myself, you should believe me when I
>  say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
>  him.

I definitely agree that it's rather presumptuous for either "side" to give some
psychological reasoning for another's belief.

MAC
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 51

In 11836viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike 
Cobb writes
In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine 
writes


  Actually my atheism is based on ignorance  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god  Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
  because of their pride mistake

How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong 
to fall into the trap that you mentioned 


  If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake  That
  he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
  undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes

What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your 
choices up to you

  As for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that I dont
  believe in god because I do not wish to  Unless you can know my
  motivations better than I do myself you should believe me when I
  say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
  him

I definitely agree that its rather presumptuous for either side to give some
psychological reasoning for anothers belief

MAC
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: pvtmakela@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI (M{kel{ Veikko)
Subject: Re: Astronomy Program
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20

In article <28641@galaxy.ucr.edu> datadec@ucrengr.ucr.edu 
(kevin marcus) writes:

>Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
>map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae,
>and so forth?  If so, is there any ftp site where I can get one?


   There are several star map programs available.  Your
   job is to choose that you like.  Try anonymous-FTP
   from:

	ftp.funet.fi:pub/astro/pc/stars
			       pc/solar
                               mac
			       amiga
			       atari
   
					regards,
					-Veikko-	

after prepro  From pvtmakelahylkn1HelsinkiFI Mkel Veikko
Subject Re Astronomy Program
Organization University of Helsinki
Lines 20

In article 28641galaxyucredu datadecucrengrucredu 
kevin marcus writes

Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae
and so forth  If so is there any ftp site where I can get one


   There are several star map programs available  Your
   job is to choose that you like  Try anonymousFTP
   from

	ftpfunetfipubastropcstars
			       pcsolar
                               mac
			       amiga
			       atari
   
					regards
					Veikko	

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 37

Benedikt Rosenau (I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de) wrote:

: When the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers
: act in a certain way and we observe that they don't, we have a contradiction.
: Something defined contradictorily cannot exist. That what the believe in does
: not exist. Secondly, there are better explanations for why they believe than
: the existence of the object of their belief.
:  
:  
: Have you read the FAQ already?
:    Benedikt

Benedikt,

I can't recall anyone claiming that God -makes- anyone act a particlar
way, I think that you're attempting to manufacture a contradiction.
God is said to require certain behavior, but the only compulsion is
the believer's sense of duty. A standard of conduct does exist, but we
are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever
ways we find convenient, but our response to God's edicts can in no
way be used to question God's existence. The behavior of believers is
a completely separate question from that of God's existence; there is
nothing contradictory here.

To say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist, is really
asking too much; you would have existence depend on grammar. All you
can really say is that something is poorly defined, but that in itself
is insufficient to decide anything (other than confusion of course).

Your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief
than the object of belief may lead to a rat's nest of unnecessary
complexity. I think I know what you're implying, but I'd like to see
your version of this better alternative just the same.

Bill



after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 37

Benedikt Rosenau I3150101dbstu1rztubsde wrote

 When the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers
 act in a certain way and we observe that they dont we have a contradiction
 Something defined contradictorily cannot exist That what the believe in does
 not exist Secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than
 the existence of the object of their belief
  
  
 Have you read the FAQ already
    Benedikt

Benedikt

I cant recall anyone claiming that God makes anyone act a particlar
way I think that youre attempting to manufacture a contradiction
God is said to require certain behavior but the only compulsion is
the believers sense of duty A standard of conduct does exist but we
are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever
ways we find convenient but our response to Gods edicts can in no
way be used to question Gods existence The behavior of believers is
a completely separate question from that of Gods existence there is
nothing contradictory here

To say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really
asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar All you
can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself
is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course

Your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief
than the object of belief may lead to a rats nest of unnecessary
complexity I think I know what youre implying but Id like to see
your version of this better alternative just the same

Bill



preprocess doc  From: datepper@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Aaron Tepper)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 28

In article <30136@ursa.bear.com> halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
>In article <1qjd3o$nlv@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>>Firstly, science has its basis in values, not the other way round.
>>So you better explain what objective atoms are, and how we get them
>>from subjective values, before we go any further.
>
>Atoms are not objective.  They aren't even real.  What scientists call
>an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes 
>certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings.  All
>of which is subjective.  

[rest deleted...]

You were a liberal arts major, weren'tcha?

Guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world--
"IBM" made with noble gas atoms (krypton? xenon? I forget the
specifics).

Atoms, trees, electrons are all independently observable and
verifiable. Morals aren't. See the difference?

Tep
-- 
Men who love brown tend to be warm and deep, sensitive to the needs and
desires of their partners. Sex is a 24 hour a day thing. Snuggling by
the fire, walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is
a real turn-on to a lover of brown. (thanx becka!)

after prepro  From datepperphoenixPrincetonEDU David Aaron Tepper
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost phoenixprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 28

In article 30136ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
In article 1qjd3onlvhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round
So you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them
from subjective values before we go any further

Atoms are not objective  They arent even real  What scientists call
an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes 
certain physical observable properties of our surroundings  All
of which is subjective  

[rest deleted]

You were a liberal arts major werentcha

Guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world
IBM made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon I forget the
specifics

Atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and
verifiable Morals arent See the difference

Tep
 
Men who love brown tend to be warm and deep sensitive to the needs and
desires of their partners Sex is a 24 hour a day thing Snuggling by
the fire walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is
a real turnon to a lover of brown thanx becka

preprocess doc  From: uck@netcom.com (Tom Chamberlain)
Subject: Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 6

Has anyone heard of or Played Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space?

Does anyone know when it is expected to be released...?

Thanx, Tom.


after prepro  From ucknetcomcom Tom Chamberlain
Subject Buzz Aldrins Race Into Space
Organization NETCOM Online Communication Services 408 2419760 guest
Lines 6

Has anyone heard of or Played Buzz Aldrins Race into Space

Does anyone know when it is expected to be released

Thanx Tom


preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 23

In article <3HgF3B3w165w@shakala.com> dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael) writes:
>Doug-- Actually, if memory serves, the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old 
>Titan ICBM...

Nope, you're confusing separate programs.  Atlas was the first-generation
US ICBM; Titan I was the second-generation one; Titan II, which all the
Titan launchers are based on, was the third-generation heavy ICBM.  There
was essentially nothing in common between these three programs.

(Yes, *three* programs.  Despite the similarity of names, Titan I and
Titan II were completely different missiles.  They didn't even use the
same fuels, never mind the same launch facilities.)

>If so, there's probably quite a few old pads, albeit in need 
>of some serious reconditioning.  Still, Being able to buy the turf and 
>pad (and bunkers, including prep facility) at Midwest farmland prices 
>strikes me as pretty damned cheap.

Sorry, the Titan silos (a) can't handle the Titan launchers with their
large SRBs, (b) can't handle *any* sort of launcher without massive
violations of normal range-safety rules (nobody cares about such things
in the event of a nuclear war, but in peacetime they matter), and (c) were
scrapped years ago.

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 23

In article 3HgF3B3w165wshakalacom danteshakalacom Charlie Prael writes
Doug Actually if memory serves the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old 
Titan ICBM

Nope youre confusing separate programs  Atlas was the firstgeneration
US ICBM Titan I was the secondgeneration one Titan II which all the
Titan launchers are based on was the thirdgeneration heavy ICBM  There
was essentially nothing in common between these three programs

Yes three programs  Despite the similarity of names Titan I and
Titan II were completely different missiles  They didnt even use the
same fuels never mind the same launch facilities

If so theres probably quite a few old pads albeit in need 
of some serious reconditioning  Still Being able to buy the turf and 
pad and bunkers including prep facility at Midwest farmland prices 
strikes me as pretty damned cheap

Sorry the Titan silos a cant handle the Titan launchers with their
large SRBs b cant handle any sort of launcher without massive
violations of normal rangesafety rules nobody cares about such things
in the event of a nuclear war but in peacetime they matter and c were
scrapped years ago

preprocess doc  From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Lines: 13

In article <EDM.93Apr15104322@gocart.twisto.compaq.com>, edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary) writes:
> >>>>> On Thu, 15 Apr 1993 04:54:38 GMT, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) said:
> 
> DLB> 	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
> DLB> makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
> DLB>lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
> DLB>writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
> DLB> in the process he became a Christian himself.
> 
> Here we go again...

Just the friendly folks at Christian Central, come to save you.


after prepro  From decaycbnewsjcbattcom deankaflowitz
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization ATT
Distribution na
Lines 13

In article  edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary writes
  On Thu 15 Apr 1993 045438 GMT bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL said
 
 DLB 	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
 DLB makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
 DLBlunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
 DLBwrites the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
 DLB in the process he became a Christian himself
 
 Here we go again

Just the friendly folks at Christian Central come to save you


preprocess doc  From: jim@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (jim jaworski)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: The Inquiring Mind BBS  1 204 488-1607
Lines: 36

rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross  Borden) writes:

> In article <734850108.F00002@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permane
> >
> >One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how
> >many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are
> >these individuals?
> >
> 	Quick!  Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:
> 
> 			"Hey, I read sci.space!"
> 
> Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
> (This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
> the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")
> 

As an Amateur Radio operator (VHF 2metres) I like to keep up with what is 
going up (and for that matter what is coming down too).
 
In about 30 days I have learned ALOT about satellites current, future and 
past all the way back to Vanguard series and up to Astro D observatory 
(space).  I borrowed a book from the library called Weater Satellites (I 
think, it has a photo of the earth with a TIROS type satellite on it.)
 
I would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the 
TIROS satellites I think there are places in the USA that sell them.
ITOS is my favorite looking satellite, followed by AmSat-OSCAR 13 
(AO-13).
 
TTYL
73
Jim

jim@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba  204 488-1607

after prepro  From jiminqmindbisonmbca jim jaworski
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization The Inquiring Mind BBS  1 204 4881607
Lines 36

rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross  Borden writes

 In article 734850108F00002permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permane
 
 One could go on and on and on here but I wonder  how
 many people read scispace and of what powerinfluence are
 these individuals
 
 	Quick  Everyone who sees this post a reply that says
 
 			Hey I read scispace
 
 Then we can count them and find out how many there are 
 This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
 the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways
 

As an Amateur Radio operator VHF 2metres I like to keep up with what is 
going up and for that matter what is coming down too
 
In about 30 days I have learned ALOT about satellites current future and 
past all the way back to Vanguard series and up to Astro D observatory 
space  I borrowed a book from the library called Weater Satellites I 
think it has a photo of the earth with a TIROS type satellite on it
 
I would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the 
TIROS satellites I think there are places in the USA that sell them
ITOS is my favorite looking satellite followed by AmSatOSCAR 13 
AO13
 
TTYL
73
Jim

jiminqmindbisonmbca
The Inquiring Mind BBS Winnipeg Manitoba  204 4881607

preprocess doc  From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 9

	Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.

	Mind you, my father was a vacuum-tube fan in the 60s (Switched
to solid-state in the mid-seventies and then abruptly died; no doubt
there's a lesson in that) and his account could have been biased.

							James Nicoll

after prepro  From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization University of Western Ontario London
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 9

	Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems

	Mind you my father was a vacuumtube fan in the 60s Switched
to solidstate in the midseventies and then abruptly died no doubt
theres a lesson in that and his account could have been biased

							James Nicoll

preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: JPL's VLBI Project Meets with International Space Agencies
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 112
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: VLBI, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993

VLBI project meets with international space agencies

By Ed McNevin
     Members of JPL's Space Very Long Baseline Interferometry
(VLBI) project team recently concluded a week-long series of
meetings with officials from Russia and Japan.
     The meetings were part of "Space VLBI Week" held at JPL in
early March and were intended to maintain cooperation between
international space agencies participating in the development of
the U.S. Space VLBI Project, a recently approved JPL flight
project set for launch in 1995.
     U.S. Space VLBI will utilize two Earth-orbiting spacecraft
-- the Japanese VSOP (VLBI Space Observing Program) satellite
with its 8-meter radio telescope, and a Russian RADIOASTRON
10-meter satellite. Both spacecraft will team up with
ground-based radio telescopes located around the world to create
a radio telescope network that astronomers hope will expand radio
telescope observing power by a factor of 10.
     Japan's VSOP satellite will use a limited six-hour orbit to
conduct imaging science, while the Russian RADIOASTRON spacecraft
will exploit a larger, 28-hour Earth orbit to conduct exploratory
radio astronomy. Each satellite will point at a source target for
roughly 24 hours, while approximately 20 ground-based radio
telescopes will simultaneously point at the same source object
while within view on Earth.
     According to Dr. Joel Smith, JPL's project manager for the
U.S. Space VLBI, meetings like those held at JPL will permit
Japan and Russia, who have little previous experience in radio
interferometry, to establish working relationships with the radio
astronomy communities that will be vital during the complex
observations required by the Space VLBI project.
     "One of our main activities is developing the methodology
for international coordination, because the two spacecraft
simultaneously rely on the corresponding tracking stations while
using the ground-based radio telescopes to observe the same
celestial objects," said Smith.
     Three new tracking antennas are being built at DSN
facilities and other three other tracking facilities located in
Japan, Russia and Green Bank, W.Va. This global network of
ground-based radio telescopes will use precision clocks and
high-speed recorders to collect observation data and forward the
information to a correlator located at the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory in Socorro, N.M. The correlator will
combine and process data, then make it available to mission
investigators in Moscow, Tokyo, and JPL via electronic mail.
     Smith is optimistic that the massive radio telescope created
by the Space VLBI network will provide radio astronomers with
better resolution than has ever been achieved before by
ground-based radio telescopes, allowing astronomers to take a
closer look at distant objects in space.
     "There is a long history of radio astronomy using
ground-based telescopes," said Smith. "What we intend to do is to
extend radio astronomy into Earth orbit. Our goal is to look
deeper into the cores of galactic nuclei, quasars and other
active radio sources to understand what drives those things we
have seen so far with radio astronomy."
     Smith noted that if one examines "the active galactic
nuclei, you'll find jets appearing to spew at speeds greater than
light, and at energy levels that are millions of times greater
than you would expect."
     He said some astronomers believe that black holes may be
located in the cores of these galaxies, and that they may fuel
the jets. Smith hopes that "by using Space VLBI to look further
into the cores, this theory may be supported or disproved."
     Russian space-flight hardware, including transponders and
transmitters, are now being tested in the United States, and
Japanese hardware is scheduled to arrive for testing later this
year. Analysis of this hardware will permit U.S. scientists and
engineers to understand how to modify the high-speed VLBA
Correlator operating at the NRAO in order to accommodate the odd
data patterns that will originate from the more than 20
ground-based radio telescopes involved in Space VLBI.
     Smith is particularly pleased that meetings with the
Japanese and Russian space agency officials -- like those held at
JPL in March -- have proceeded smoothly. Yet he knows that the
political uncertainty in Russia could jeopardize that country's
participation in the project.
     "Nothing is ever smooth," he said, "but the Russians have
been incredibly open with us. We always anticipated some
likelihood that we will not succeed because of political factors
beyond our control, yet there tends to be a way of keeping these
things going, because scientists on both sides are trying hard,
and people recognize the value of cooperation at this level."
     Smith points out that the Japanese space agency has more at
stake than just fulfilling an international commitment to a
science mission.
     "The Japanese have been extremely cooperative, since
international cooperation is essential to their science mission,"
he said.
     But Smith also noted that Japanese space agency officials
look at the U.S. Space VLBI mission as an opportunity to showcase
the technology involved with VSOP spacecraft, and their highly
regarded Mach V launch vehicle.
     Yet regardless of the risks involved in undertaking such an
ambitious project, JPL's Smith is satisfied that planning for the
Space VLBI Project is beyond the significant financial and
political hurdles that otherwise might threaten the project.
     "Fortunately, we have the virtue of having two partners, and
if either falls out, we would still have something with the
other. By themselves, both spacecraft are independent,
scientifically exciting missions."
                           ###
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | part vegetable.


after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject JPLs VLBI Project Meets with International Space Agencies
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 112
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords VLBI JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993

VLBI project meets with international space agencies

By Ed McNevin
     Members of JPLs Space Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLBI project team recently concluded a weeklong series of
meetings with officials from Russia and Japan
     The meetings were part of Space VLBI Week held at JPL in
early March and were intended to maintain cooperation between
international space agencies participating in the development of
the US Space VLBI Project a recently approved JPL flight
project set for launch in 1995
     US Space VLBI will utilize two Earthorbiting spacecraft
 the Japanese VSOP VLBI Space Observing Program satellite
with its 8meter radio telescope and a Russian RADIOASTRON
10meter satellite Both spacecraft will team up with
groundbased radio telescopes located around the world to create
a radio telescope network that astronomers hope will expand radio
telescope observing power by a factor of 10
     Japans VSOP satellite will use a limited sixhour orbit to
conduct imaging science while the Russian RADIOASTRON spacecraft
will exploit a larger 28hour Earth orbit to conduct exploratory
radio astronomy Each satellite will point at a source target for
roughly 24 hours while approximately 20 groundbased radio
telescopes will simultaneously point at the same source object
while within view on Earth
     According to Dr Joel Smith JPLs project manager for the
US Space VLBI meetings like those held at JPL will permit
Japan and Russia who have little previous experience in radio
interferometry to establish working relationships with the radio
astronomy communities that will be vital during the complex
observations required by the Space VLBI project
     One of our main activities is developing the methodology
for international coordination because the two spacecraft
simultaneously rely on the corresponding tracking stations while
using the groundbased radio telescopes to observe the same
celestial objects said Smith
     Three new tracking antennas are being built at DSN
facilities and other three other tracking facilities located in
Japan Russia and Green Bank WVa This global network of
groundbased radio telescopes will use precision clocks and
highspeed recorders to collect observation data and forward the
information to a correlator located at the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory in Socorro NM The correlator will
combine and process data then make it available to mission
investigators in Moscow Tokyo and JPL via electronic mail
     Smith is optimistic that the massive radio telescope created
by the Space VLBI network will provide radio astronomers with
better resolution than has ever been achieved before by
groundbased radio telescopes allowing astronomers to take a
closer look at distant objects in space
     There is a long history of radio astronomy using
groundbased telescopes said Smith What we intend to do is to
extend radio astronomy into Earth orbit Our goal is to look
deeper into the cores of galactic nuclei quasars and other
active radio sources to understand what drives those things we
have seen so far with radio astronomy
     Smith noted that if one examines the active galactic
nuclei youll find jets appearing to spew at speeds greater than
light and at energy levels that are millions of times greater
than you would expect
     He said some astronomers believe that black holes may be
located in the cores of these galaxies and that they may fuel
the jets Smith hopes that by using Space VLBI to look further
into the cores this theory may be supported or disproved
     Russian spaceflight hardware including transponders and
transmitters are now being tested in the United States and
Japanese hardware is scheduled to arrive for testing later this
year Analysis of this hardware will permit US scientists and
engineers to understand how to modify the highspeed VLBA
Correlator operating at the NRAO in order to accommodate the odd
data patterns that will originate from the more than 20
groundbased radio telescopes involved in Space VLBI
     Smith is particularly pleased that meetings with the
Japanese and Russian space agency officials  like those held at
JPL in March  have proceeded smoothly Yet he knows that the
political uncertainty in Russia could jeopardize that countrys
participation in the project
     Nothing is ever smooth he said but the Russians have
been incredibly open with us We always anticipated some
likelihood that we will not succeed because of political factors
beyond our control yet there tends to be a way of keeping these
things going because scientists on both sides are trying hard
and people recognize the value of cooperation at this level
     Smith points out that the Japanese space agency has more at
stake than just fulfilling an international commitment to a
science mission
     The Japanese have been extremely cooperative since
international cooperation is essential to their science mission
he said
     But Smith also noted that Japanese space agency officials
look at the US Space VLBI mission as an opportunity to showcase
the technology involved with VSOP spacecraft and their highly
regarded Mach V launch vehicle
     Yet regardless of the risks involved in undertaking such an
ambitious project JPLs Smith is satisfied that planning for the
Space VLBI Project is beyond the significant financial and
political hurdles that otherwise might threaten the project
     Fortunately we have the virtue of having two partners and
if either falls out we would still have something with the
other By themselves both spacecraft are independent
scientifically exciting missions
                           
     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  The aweto from New Zealand
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  is part caterpillar and
_____  _       _____                      part vegetable


preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 16

Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
: 
: 	Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. If you state that 
: one of the books in your room is blue, I certainly do not need as much 
: evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed 
: leapard in your bed. [ and I don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ]

Keith, 

If the issue is, "What is Truth" then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent. If the issue is, "What are the consequences
if such and such -is- True", then Truth is irrelevent. Which is it to
be?


Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 16

Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote
 
 	Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence If you state that 
 one of the books in your room is blue I certainly do not need as much 
 evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed 
 leapard in your bed [ and I dont mean a male lover in a leotard ]

Keith 

If the issue is What is Truth then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent If the issue is What are the consequences
if such and such is True then Truth is irrelevent Which is it to
be


Bill

preprocess doc  From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 38

In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:

 > be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
 > materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
 > and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
 > grade fusion reactors.

I don't know what a "low grade" fusion reactor is, but the major
problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some
fractions, but still very small).  Massive amounts of regolith would
have to be processed.

This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth.  As I recall, Wingo wasn't
content with being assured that titanium (at .5% in the Earth's crust,
average) would not run out, and touted lunar mines, even though the
market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around $.06/pound.
This prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources.

On the moon, titanium occurs in basalts; "high-Ti" basalts (Apollo 11
and 17) have 8-14% titanium dioxide (by weight).  This is nice, but...
terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in
titanium.  They very often have 3% TiO2, frequently have 4%, and
sometimes even 5% TiO2 (again, by weight).  These flood basalts are
*enormous* -- millions of cubic kilometers, scattered all over the
world (Siberia, Brazil, the NW United States, Ethiopia, etc.).  If
even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
basalts.  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
mined today).

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu


after prepro  From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 38

In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman writes

  be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
  materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
  and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
  grade fusion reactors

I dont know what a low grade fusion reactor is but the major
problem with 3He aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small  on the order of 5 ppb or so on average more in some
fractions but still very small  Massive amounts of regolith would
have to be processed

This thread reminds me of Wingos claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth  As I recall Wingo wasnt
content with being assured that titanium at 5 in the Earths crust
average would not run out and touted lunar mines even though the
market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around 06pound
This prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources

On the moon titanium occurs in basalts highTi basalts Apollo 11
and 17 have 814 titanium dioxide by weight  This is nice but
terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in
titanium  They very often have 3 TiO2 frequently have 4 and
sometimes even 5 TiO2 again by weight  These flood basalts are
enormous  millions of cubic kilometers scattered all over the
world Siberia Brazil the NW United States Ethiopia etc  If
even 1 of the basalts are 5 TiO2 this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 23 less than in lunar highTi
basalts  It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being
mined today

	Paul F Dietz
	dietzcsrochesteredu


preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Apr3.153552.4334@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>, acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
|> In article <1pint5$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes
>
> Well, Germany was hardly the ONLY country to discriminate against the 
> Jews, although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job 
> of expressing a general European dislike of them.  This should not turn 
> into a debate on antisemitism, but you should also point out that Luther's
>  antiSemitism was based on religious grounds, while Hitler's was on racial 
> grounds, and Wagnmer's on aesthetic grounds.  Just blanketing the whole 
> group is poor analysis, even if they all are bigots.

I find these to be intriguing remarks.   Could you give us a bit
more explanation here?   For example, which religion is anti-semitic,
and which aesthetic?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom

In article 1993Apr31535524334macccmacalstredu acoopermacccmacalstredu writes
 In article 1pint51l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

 Well Germany was hardly the ONLY country to discriminate against the 
 Jews although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job 
 of expressing a general European dislike of them  This should not turn 
 into a debate on antisemitism but you should also point out that Luthers
  antiSemitism was based on religious grounds while Hitlers was on racial 
 grounds and Wagnmers on aesthetic grounds  Just blanketing the whole 
 group is poor analysis even if they all are bigots

I find these to be intriguing remarks   Could you give us a bit
more explanation here   For example which religion is antisemitic
and which aesthetic

jon

preprocess doc  From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21

In article <1qnb9tINN7ff@rave.larc.nasa.gov> C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON) writes:
>> there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit
>
>Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that  you just can 
>not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its 
>orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because 
>the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth 
>that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon???

Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections, and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months.  The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days.  It is *possible* that there are stable orbits here and there --
the Moon's gravitational field is poorly mapped -- but we know of none.

Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes.  The big problem is that the Moon's own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon.
-- 
All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

after prepro  From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21

In article 1qnb9tINN7ffravelarcnasagov COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON writes
 there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit

Is it right That is new stuff for me So it means that  you just can 
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its 
orbit will be unstable If so what is the reason Is that because 
the combined gravitacional atraction of the SunMoon and Earth 
that does not provide a stable  orbit around the Moon

Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months  The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days  It is possible that there are stable orbits here and there 
the Moons gravitational field is poorly mapped  but we know of none

Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes  The big problem is that the Moons own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry

preprocess doc  From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 51

[reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)]
 
>>>     There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
>>>that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
>>>what it is).  Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
>>>atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
>>> I accept nothing on blind faith.
 
>>Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns!  Need I say more?
 
>...I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god
>existing or not.  Some folks call this agnosticism.  It does not suffer
>from "blind faith" at all.  I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".
 
For many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration:  what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing?  There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist.  Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith.  Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence.  It is a reliable way of knowing?
 
There is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence
of any possibility of proof.  Even when we agree to take someone elses
word "on faith", we just mean that having found this person to be
reliable in the past, we judge him likely to be a reliable source now.
If we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence
everywhere else, why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about
gods?
 
The difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then
one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing,
rather than, as some agnostic posters would have it, whether ones faith
is in gods or no gods.  The theist believes that faith is an acceptable
basis for a belief in gods, even if he rejects faith as reliable at
other times, for example in his work as a scientist.  The atheist
believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable
knowledge.  Agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than
theism or atheism, unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other
knowledge.  Without evidence, why should we believe in gods rather than
Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?
 
I would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn't
require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods.  I don't believe that
there is any such thing as absolute knowledge.  Atheism is the best and
simplest theory to fit the (lack of) facts and so should be held until
contrary evidence is found.
 
David Nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu).  Midelfort Clinic, Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell

after prepro  From nyedacnsvaxuwecedu David Nye
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 51

[reply to zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon]
 
     There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
what it is  Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
 I accept nothing on blind faith
 
Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns  Need I say more
 
I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god
existing or not  Some folks call this agnosticism  It does not suffer
from blind faith at all  I think of it as Dont worry be happy
 
For many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration  what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing  There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist  Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith  Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence  It is a reliable way of knowing
 
There is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence
of any possibility of proof  Even when we agree to take someone elses
word on faith we just mean that having found this person to be
reliable in the past we judge him likely to be a reliable source now
If we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence
everywhere else why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about
gods
 
The difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then
one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing
rather than as some agnostic posters would have it whether ones faith
is in gods or no gods  The theist believes that faith is an acceptable
basis for a belief in gods even if he rejects faith as reliable at
other times for example in his work as a scientist  The atheist
believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable
knowledge  Agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than
theism or atheism unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other
knowledge  Without evidence why should we believe in gods rather than
Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny
 
I would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesnt
require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods  I dont believe that
there is any such thing as absolute knowledge  Atheism is the best and
simplest theory to fit the lack of facts and so should be held until
contrary evidence is found
 
David Nye nyedacnsvaxuwecedu  Midelfort Clinic Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities  Bertrand Russell

preprocess doc  From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 42

mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus) writes:

>cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
>> All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year 
>> moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
>>development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
>> Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.
>> But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
>> realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.
>> Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of 
>> today?

>  The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
>and-civilized areas are obvious.  Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
>The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
>transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.

Lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties.

>It didn't require gov't to
>fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
>at the destination.  In practice, some were gov't funded, some were private.

Could you give examples of privately funded ones?

>But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
>of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.

Your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies.  However, the
concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons, I 
suspect.  I'm not aware that Mr Orteig received any significant economic 
benefit from Lindbergh's flight.  Modern analogies, such as the prize for a
human powered helicopter face similar arguments.  There is little economic
benefit in such a thing.  The advantage comes in the new approaches developed
and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the 
equivalent amount of direct investment would.  A person who puts up $ X billion
for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done
than because they expect to make money off the deal.
-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
		    "Find a way or make one."
	             -attributed to Hannibal

after prepro  From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 42

mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus writes

cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
 All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year 
 moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
 Saint Louis venture to his financial backers
 But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
 realize that much more was at stake than 25000
 Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of 
 today

  The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious  Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery

Lindberghs flight took place in 27 not the thirties

It didnt require govt to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination  In practice some were govt funded some were private

Could you give examples of privately funded ones

But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff

Your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies  However the
concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons I 
suspect  Im not aware that Mr Orteig received any significant economic 
benefit from Lindberghs flight  Modern analogies such as the prize for a
human powered helicopter face similar arguments  There is little economic
benefit in such a thing  The advantage comes in the new approaches developed
and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the 
equivalent amount of direct investment would  A person who puts up  X billion
for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done
than because they expect to make money off the deal
 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
		    Find a way or make one
	             attributed to Hannibal

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?


I don't know a whole lot on Proton, but given that it is a multi stage
rocket,  up to 4 stages, it may not really need the Centaur,  plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur.   

Also, the centaur is not small,  unless the Proton has an oversize
shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it.

Dennis,  you know much about this?

pat


after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo


I dont know a whole lot on Proton but given that it is a multi stage
rocket  up to 4 stages it may not really need the Centaur  plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur   

Also the centaur is not small  unless the Proton has an oversize
shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it

Dennis  you know much about this

pat


preprocess doc  From: isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (Isaac Kuo)
Subject: Re: Abyss--breathing fluids
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: skippy.berkeley.edu

Are breathable liquids possible?

I remember seeing an old Nova or The Nature of Things where this idea was
touched upon (it might have been some other TV show).  If nothing else, I know
such liquids ARE possible because...

They showed a large glass full of this liquid, and put a white mouse (rat?) in
it.  Since the liquid was not dense, the mouse would float, so it was held down
by tongs clutching its tail.  The thing struggled quite a bit, but it was
certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid.  It never
did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top.

Now, this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations, but it certainly
shows breathable liquids can be made.
-- 
*Isaac Kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu)	*       ___
*					* _____/_o_\_____
*	Twinkle, twinkle, little .sig,	*(==(/_______\)==)
*	Keep it less than 5 lines big.	* \==\/     \/==/

after prepro  From isaackuoskippyberkeleyedu Isaac Kuo
Subject Re Abyssbreathing fluids
Organization UC Berkeley Math Department
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost skippyberkeleyedu

Are breathable liquids possible

I remember seeing an old Nova or The Nature of Things where this idea was
touched upon it might have been some other TV show  If nothing else I know
such liquids ARE possible because

They showed a large glass full of this liquid and put a white mouse rat in
it  Since the liquid was not dense the mouse would float so it was held down
by tongs clutching its tail  The thing struggled quite a bit but it was
certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid  It never
did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top

Now this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations but it certainly
shows breathable liquids can be made
 
Isaac Kuo isaackuomathberkeleyedu	       ___
					 ______o_\_____
	Twinkle twinkle little sig	_______\
	Keep it less than 5 lines big	 \\     \

preprocess doc  From: kpa@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Karl Anderson)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Nntp-Posting-Host: oslo.rchland.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Rochester
Lines: 42

From another space forum
>  NOW WHERE DID I LEAVE THOSE PLIERS?
    When workers at the Kennedy Space Center disassembled the STS-56
 solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers
 lodged into the outside base of the right hand SRB.  The tool survived
 the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a 250,000 foot
 altitude, then down to splashdown and towing back to KSC.

    NASA spokesperson Lisa Malone told the media,

    "It's been a long time since something like this happened.  We've
 lost washers and bolts (before) but never a tool like this."

    The initial investigation into the incident has shown that a
 Thiokol Corp. technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on
 April 2nd.  Unfortunately, the worker's supervisor did not act on the
 report and Discovery was launched with its "extra payload".  NASA
 officials were never told of the missing tool before the April 8th
 launch date.

    The free-flying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the SRB
 technician.  When the tool was found in an aft section of the booster,
 its 18-inch long rope was still attached.  The pliers were found in a
 part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad.
|(Ron's ed. note:  naaahhh,  just too easy)

    A spokesperson for the Lockheed Space Operations Company said that
 the Shuttle processor will take "appropriate action".  Thiokol is a
 subcontractor to LSOC for work to prepare Shuttle hardware for launch.

_________________________________________________________

Karl Anderson	
DEV/2000: Configuration Management/Version Control

Dept 53K/006-2		Rochester, Minnesota 55901
253-8044		Tie 8-453-8044
INTERNET: karl@vnet.ibm.com
PRODIGY: CMMG96A

"To seek, to strive, to find, and not to yield."
			Alfred Lord Tennyson

after prepro  From kparchlandvnetibmcom Karl Anderson
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not necessarily those of IBM
NntpPostingHost oslorchlandibmcom
Organization IBM Rochester
Lines 42

From another space forum
  NOW WHERE DID I LEAVE THOSE PLIERS
    When workers at the Kennedy Space Center disassembled the STS56
 solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers
 lodged into the outside base of the right hand SRB  The tool survived
 the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a 250000 foot
 altitude then down to splashdown and towing back to KSC

    NASA spokesperson Lisa Malone told the media

    Its been a long time since something like this happened  Weve
 lost washers and bolts before but never a tool like this

    The initial investigation into the incident has shown that a
 Thiokol Corp technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on
 April 2nd  Unfortunately the workers supervisor did not act on the
 report and Discovery was launched with its extra payload  NASA
 officials were never told of the missing tool before the April 8th
 launch date

    The freeflying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the SRB
 technician  When the tool was found in an aft section of the booster
 its 18inch long rope was still attached  The pliers were found in a
 part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad
Rons ed note  naaahhh  just too easy

    A spokesperson for the Lockheed Space Operations Company said that
 the Shuttle processor will take appropriate action  Thiokol is a
 subcontractor to LSOC for work to prepare Shuttle hardware for launch

_________________________________________________________

Karl Anderson	
DEV2000 Configuration ManagementVersion Control

Dept 53K0062		Rochester Minnesota 55901
2538044		Tie 84538044
INTERNET karlvnetibmcom
PRODIGY CMMG96A

To seek to strive to find and not to yield
			Alfred Lord Tennyson

preprocess doc  From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Dreams and Degrees (was Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 47
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <C5xp0K.G79@brunel.ac.uk>, mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
> <1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>> Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
>>and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
>>that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
>>dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. 
> 
> Oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh?
> 
> The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
> pernicious fallacys of the New Age.  Michael, thanks for the generous
> offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you.

Well said.
 
> You, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by
> failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here)
> which would give your imagination wings.
> 
> Just to show this isn't a flame, I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of 
> the Body Snatchers_:
> 
> "Become one of us; it's not so bad, you know"

Okay, Del, so Michael was being unfair, but you are being unfair back.  
He is taking college courses now, I presume he is studying hard, and
his postings reveal that he is *somewhat* hip to the technical issues
of astronautics.  Plus, he is attentively following the erudite
discourse of the Big Brains who post to sci.space; is it not
inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from
reading the likes of you and me? [1]

Like others involved in sci.space, Mr. Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture, and I think he's soaking it up
fast.  I was a young guy with dreams once, and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up.  Too bad I wound up in an
assembly-line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day...
(-:

[1] Though rumors persist that Del and I are both pseudonyms of Fred
McCall.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | "We'll see you
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | at White Sands in June. 
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | You bring your view-graphs, 
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | and I'll bring my rocketship."  
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | --Col. Pete Worden on the DC-X

after prepro  From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Dreams and Degrees was Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 47
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov

In article  mt90dacbrunelacuk Del Cotter writes
 1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
 Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless 
 
 Oh and us with the big degrees dont got imagination huh
 
 The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
 pernicious fallacys of the New Age  Michael thanks for the generous
 offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you

Well said
 
 You on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by
 failing to get the mathsthermodynamicschemistryyour choices here
 which would give your imagination wings
 
 Just to show this isnt a flame I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of 
 the Body Snatchers_
 
 Become one of us its not so bad you know

Okay Del so Michael was being unfair but you are being unfair back  
He is taking college courses now I presume he is studying hard and
his postings reveal that he is somewhat hip to the technical issues
of astronautics  Plus he is attentively following the erudite
discourse of the Big Brains who post to scispace is it not
inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from
reading the likes of you and me [1]

Like others involved in scispace Mr Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture and I think hes soaking it up
fast  I was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up  Too bad I wound up in an
assemblyline job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day


[1] Though rumors persist that Del and I are both pseudonyms of Fred
McCall

Bill Higgins Beam Jockey               Well see you
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory   at White Sands in June 
Bitnet           HIGGINSFNALBITNET   You bring your viewgraphs 
Internet       HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV   and Ill bring my rocketship  
SPANHepnet           43011HIGGINS   Col Pete Worden on the DCX

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Contradictions
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 49

In article <C52oys.2CLJ@austin.ibm.com> yoder@austin.ibm.com (Stuart R. Yoder) writes:
>: 
>: Then what would it have to do with "in the universe"?  You theists
>: cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe
>: are two different places.  Put God outside the universe and you
>: subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the
>: universe, put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of
>: physics on it.
>
>1.  God is outside the universe.
>2.  Things outside the universe do not have 'the ability to interact
>    with the inside of the universe'.
>3.  Therefore God cannot interact inside the universe.
>
>(2) has no basis whatsoever.  You seem to have positive knowledge
>about this.

	(2) is a corrallary of (1).

	The negation of (2) would contridict (1).

>
>: Although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules
>: governing the inside of the universe, we expect that there are no
>: contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics.
>: On the other hand, your notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and
>: infinitely benevolent god, is not subject to physical laws: you
>: attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of
>: them, beyond measurement.  To me, beyond measurement means it can
>: have no measurable effect on reality, so it cannot interact: ergo,
>: your god is IRRELEVANT.
>
>1.  God is beyond measure.
>2.  Beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on
>    reality.
>3.  Therefore God cannot have a measurable effect on reality.
>
>(2) has no basis whatsoever.

  (2) Is a corrallary of (1)

  The negation of (2) would contradict (1).
--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Contradictions
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 49

In article  yoderaustinibmcom Stuart R Yoder writes
 
 Then what would it have to do with in the universe  You theists
 cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe
 are two different places  Put God outside the universe and you
 subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the
 universe put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of
 physics on it

1  God is outside the universe
2  Things outside the universe do not have the ability to interact
    with the inside of the universe
3  Therefore God cannot interact inside the universe

2 has no basis whatsoever  You seem to have positive knowledge
about this

	2 is a corrallary of 1

	The negation of 2 would contridict 1


 Although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules
 governing the inside of the universe we expect that there are no
 contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics
 On the other hand your notion of an omnipotent omniscient and
 infinitely benevolent god is not subject to physical laws you
 attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of
 them beyond measurement  To me beyond measurement means it can
 have no measurable effect on reality so it cannot interact ergo
 your god is IRRELEVANT

1  God is beyond measure
2  Beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on
    reality
3  Therefore God cannot have a measurable effect on reality

2 has no basis whatsoever

  2 Is a corrallary of 1

  The negation of 2 would contradict 1



       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: rjungcla@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (R. M. Jungclas)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville, IL.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 48

In article <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com> pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:
>I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
>the back.  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
>science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
>It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.
>
>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M".  They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.
>
>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal?  I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
>Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.
>
>And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one.  I'm not that crazy.
>
>
>-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas

Could it be Public Missile, Inc in Michigan?

From the description of ad here, it sounds like they're talking about
"High Power Rocketry", an outgrowth of model rocketry.  This hobby
uses non-metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P.  The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular.
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry.

Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 3.3 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater, REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch.
Typically, a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time (ie week, weekend, etc.) at a designated site and time, and
all of the launches are then covered under this "blanket waiver".
There is also a "High Power Safety Code" which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size, etc.

Finally, in order to purchase any of the larger (Class B) rocket 
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association. Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and "safe" flight at a total impulse
level.

For more information, watch rec.models.rockets newsgroup.

R. Michael Jungclas                    UUCP:      att!ihlpb!rjungcla 
AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville, IL.       Internet:  rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com


after prepro  From rjungclacbnewsdcbattcom R M Jungclas
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization ATT Bell Labs  Naperville IL
Distribution usa
Lines 48

In article  pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes
I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back  I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that

Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M  They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet

Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal  I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down

And no Im not going to even think of buying one  Im not that crazy


Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas

Could it be Public Missile Inc in Michigan

From the description of ad here it sounds like theyre talking about
High Power Rocketry an outgrowth of model rocketry  This hobby
uses nonmetallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P  The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry

Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 33 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch
Typically a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time ie week weekend etc at a designated site and time and
all of the launches are then covered under this blanket waiver
There is also a High Power Safety Code which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size etc

Finally in order to purchase any of the larger Class B rocket 
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and safe flight at a total impulse
level

For more information watch recmodelsrockets newsgroup

R Michael Jungclas                    UUCP      attihlpbrjungcla 
ATT Bell Labs  Naperville IL       Internet  rjungclaihlpbattcom


preprocess doc  From: agae@palm.lle.rochester.edu (Andres C. Gaeris)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Reply-To: agae@palm.lle.rochester.edu (Andres C. Gaeris)
Organization: UofR Laboratory for Laser Energetics
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: palm.lle.rochester.edu

In article <1993Apr20.164655.11048@head-cfa.harvard.edu>, willner@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) writes:
> 
> The NASM photo archives are open to the public.  All (or almost all)
> still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but I
> don't know about films.  At least it might be worth a try.  I'm not
> sure if appointments are necessary, but I think not.
>
Is posible to make copies of these photographs (or any other aerospace
photographs at NASM) if you pay a copyright fee?

===============================================================================
Andres C. Gaeris	   || "Living example of the application of Newton's
Junior laser fusioneer	   ||  Zeroth Law:
agae@lle.rochester.edu	   ||  `Every body in rest wants to remain in bed'"
===============================================================================

 

after prepro  From agaepalmllerochesteredu Andres C Gaeris
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
ReplyTo agaepalmllerochesteredu Andres C Gaeris
Organization UofR Laboratory for Laser Energetics
Lines 17
NntpPostingHost palmllerochesteredu

In article 1993Apr2016465511048headcfaharvardedu willnerheadcfaharvardedu Steve Willner writes
 
 The NASM photo archives are open to the public  All or almost all
 still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but I
 dont know about films  At least it might be worth a try  Im not
 sure if appointments are necessary but I think not

Is posible to make copies of these photographs or any other aerospace
photographs at NASM if you pay a copyright fee


Andres C Gaeris	    Living example of the application of Newtons
Junior laser fusioneer	     Zeroth Law
agaellerochesteredu	     `Every body in rest wants to remain in bed


 

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 8

The only ether I see here is the stuff you must
have been breathing before you posted...

--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 8

The only ether I see here is the stuff you must
have been breathing before you posted


Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: rlennip4@mach1.wlu.ca (robert lennips 9209 U)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Lines: 2

Please get a REAL life.


after prepro  From rlennip4mach1wluca robert lennips 9209 U
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Organization Wilfrid Laurier University
Lines 2

Please get a REAL life


preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <115686@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>No, I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
>belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. This


	Who does the categorizing?

	
---  

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling "Traditional Family Values."





after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 115686buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

No I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies This


	Who does the categorizing

	
  

   Id Cheat on Hillary Too

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling Traditional Family Values





preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 35

In article <1993Apr15.135650.28926@st-andrews.ac.uk> nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson) writes:

>I don't think you're right about Germany.  My daughter was born there and
>I don't think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there (beyond the
>rights of all EC citizens).  She is a British citizen by virtue of
>her parentage, but that's not "full" citizenship.  For example, I don't think
>her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way.

I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it. It might require immigration to Germany, but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case.

>More interesting is your sentence, 

>>In fact, many people try to come to the US to have their children
>>born here so that they will have some human rights.

>How does the US compare to an Islamic country in this respect?  Do people
>go to Iran so their children will have some human rights?  Would you?

More interesting only for your propaganda purposes. I have said several
times now that I don't consider Iran particularly exemplary as a good
Islamic state. We might talk about the rights of people in "capitalist
secular" third world countries to give other examples of the lack of
rights in third world countries broadly. Say, for example, Central
American secular capitalist countries whose govt's the US supports
but who Amnesty International has pointed out are human rights vacua.


Gregg





after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 35

In article 1993Apr1513565028926standrewsacuk nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson writes

I dont think youre right about Germany  My daughter was born there and
I dont think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there beyond the
rights of all EC citizens  She is a British citizen by virtue of
her parentage but thats not full citizenship  For example I dont think
her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way

I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it It might require immigration to Germany but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case

More interesting is your sentence 

In fact many people try to come to the US to have their children
born here so that they will have some human rights

How does the US compare to an Islamic country in this respect  Do people
go to Iran so their children will have some human rights  Would you

More interesting only for your propaganda purposes I have said several
times now that I dont consider Iran particularly exemplary as a good
Islamic state We might talk about the rights of people in capitalist
secular third world countries to give other examples of the lack of
rights in third world countries broadly Say for example Central
American secular capitalist countries whose govts the US supports
but who Amnesty International has pointed out are human rights vacua


Gregg





preprocess doc  From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Hawaii
Distribution: sci
Lines: 18

Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues writes:

> 	Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object,
> beyond Pluto's orbit, was found by an observatory at Hawaii. They
> named the object Karla.

The name is a working name only; quite unofficial.  The formal designation
is 1993 FW.

> 	The program said the object wasn't a gaseous giant planet, and
> should be composed by rocks and ices.
> 
> 	Can someone confirm these information? Could this object be a
> new planet or a Kuiper object?

It's most likely a Kuiper Belt object, with an estimated diameter of
290 km.  The orbit hasn't been determined well enough yet to say much
more about it.

after prepro  From tholengalileoifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Hawaii
Distribution sci
Lines 18

Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues writes

 	Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object
 beyond Plutos orbit was found by an observatory at Hawaii They
 named the object Karla

The name is a working name only quite unofficial  The formal designation
is 1993 FW

 	The program said the object wasnt a gaseous giant planet and
 should be composed by rocks and ices
 
 	Can someone confirm these information Could this object be a
 new planet or a Kuiper object

Its most likely a Kuiper Belt object with an estimated diameter of
290 km  The orbit hasnt been determined well enough yet to say much
more about it

preprocess doc  From: tom@igc.apc.org
Subject: computer cult
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1469100033:000:2451
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!tom    Apr 24 09:26:00 1993
Lines: 59


From: <tom>
Subject: computer cult

From scott Fri Apr 23 16:31:21 1993
Received: by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
	id AA16121; Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Message-Id: <9304232331.AA16121@igc.apc.org>
From: Scott Weikart <scott>
Sender: scott
To: cdplist
Subject: Next stand-off?
Status: R

Redwood City, CA (API) -- A tense stand-off entered its third week
today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with
charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs.

Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound, but
some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside
have been terminated.  Others claim to be staying of their own free
will, but Jobs' persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm.

In conversations with authorities, Jobs has given conflicting
information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the
industry.  At times, he has claimed to "have hardware which will blow
anything else away", while more recently he claims they have stopped
manufacturing their own.

Agents from the ATF (Apple-Taligent Forces) believe that the group is
equipped with serious hardware, including 486-caliber pieces and
possibly Canon equipment.

The siege has attracted a variety of spectators, from the curious to
other cultists.  Some have offered to intercede in negotiations,
including a young man who will identify himself only as "Bill" and
claims to be the "MS-iah".

Former members of the cult, some only recently deprogrammed, speak
hesitantly of their former lives, including being forced to work
20-hour days, and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies.  There were
frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of
"interpersonal computing" which rejects traditional roles.

Late-night vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on
federal marshals.  Loud rock and roll, mostly Talking Heads, blares
throughout the night.  Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own
apocalyptic prophecies, a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers
carry Jobs' own speeches -- typically beginning with a chilling "I
want to welcome you to the 'Next World' ".

- - -- 
Roland J. Schemers III              |            Networking Systems
Systems Programmer                  |            G16 Redwood Hall (415) 723-6740
Distributed Computing Group         |            Stanford, CA 94305-4122
Stanford University                 |            schemers@Slapshot.Stanford.EDU



after prepro  From tomigcapcorg
Subject computer cult
NfID Ncdp14691000330002451
NfFrom cdpUUCPtom    Apr 24 092600 1993
Lines 59


From 
Subject computer cult

From scott Fri Apr 23 163121 1993
Received by igcapcorg 41Revision 177 
	id AA16121 Fri 23 Apr 93 163109 PDT
Date Fri 23 Apr 93 163109 PDT
MessageId 9304232331AA16121igcapcorg
From Scott Weikart 
Sender scott
To cdplist
Subject Next standoff
Status R

Redwood City CA API  A tense standoff entered its third week
today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with
charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs

Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound but
some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside
have been terminated  Others claim to be staying of their own free
will but Jobs persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm

In conversations with authorities Jobs has given conflicting
information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the
industry  At times he has claimed to have hardware which will blow
anything else away while more recently he claims they have stopped
manufacturing their own

Agents from the ATF AppleTaligent Forces believe that the group is
equipped with serious hardware including 486caliber pieces and
possibly Canon equipment

The siege has attracted a variety of spectators from the curious to
other cultists  Some have offered to intercede in negotiations
including a young man who will identify himself only as Bill and
claims to be the MSiah

Former members of the cult some only recently deprogrammed speak
hesitantly of their former lives including being forced to work
20hour days and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies  There were
frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of
interpersonal computing which rejects traditional roles

Latenight vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on
federal marshals  Loud rock and roll mostly Talking Heads blares
throughout the night  Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own
apocalyptic prophecies a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers
carry Jobs own speeches  typically beginning with a chilling I
want to welcome you to the Next World 

   
Roland J Schemers III                          Networking Systems
Systems Programmer                              G16 Redwood Hall 415 7236740
Distributed Computing Group                     Stanford CA 943054122
Stanford University                             schemersSlapshotStanfordEDU



preprocess doc  From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK
Lines: 26

<1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:

>So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was Wilbur and
>Orville Wright, and quite a few others.. Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
>and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
>that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
>dreams all the knowledge is worthless.. 

Oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh?

The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age.  Michael, thanks for the generous
offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you.

You, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here)
which would give your imagination wings.

Just to show this isn't a flame, I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of 
the Body Snatchers_:

"Become one of us; it's not so bad, you know"
-- 
 ',' ' ',','  |                                                  |  ',' ' ',','
   ', ,','    |       Del Cotter       mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk      |    ', ,','  
     ','      |                                                  |      ','    

after prepro  From mt90dacbrunelacuk Del Cotter
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Brunel University West London UK
Lines 26

1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes

So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright and quite a few others Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless 

Oh and us with the big degrees dont got imagination huh

The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age  Michael thanks for the generous
offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you

You on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the mathsthermodynamicschemistryyour choices here
which would give your imagination wings

Just to show this isnt a flame I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of 
the Body Snatchers_

Become one of us its not so bad you know
 
                                                           
               Del Cotter       mt90dacbrunelacuk             
                                                                       

preprocess doc  From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1qlfd4INN935@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> >>Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
|> >>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
|> >
|> >So, why "must" they have such laws?
|> 
|> The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."

Oh, Your Highness?   And exactly why "should" the quotation
marks enclose "laws," not "must."

In case you didn't notice, it's the function of the "must"
that I wish to ironicise.

|> 
|> If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
|> etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
|> into chaos.

Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour, entirely by chance.

Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour?

What about the natural morality of bee dance?

jon.

after prepro  From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
 liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 
 Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
 as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
 
 So why must they have such laws
 
 The quotation marks should enclose laws not must

Oh Your Highness   And exactly why should the quotation
marks enclose laws not must

In case you didnt notice its the function of the must
that I wish to ironicise

 
 If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
 etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
 into chaos

Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour entirely by chance

Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour

What about the natural morality of bee dance

jon

preprocess doc  From: jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Lines: 26
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada

In article <1993Apr19.020359.26996@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>> > Can these questions be answered for a previous
>> > instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?
> 
>> Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)
>> p(au)          3.424346
>> e              0.151899
>> i              1.0988
>> cap_omega(0) 243.5652
>> W(0)         231.1607
>> epoch       1977.04110
> 
> 
>> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
>> 
>> April  1973     83 jupiter radii
>> August 1970     ~3 jupiter radii
> 
> Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU.  So the
> 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
> Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
> -- 
Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.

John Garland
jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca

after prepro  From jgarlandkeanucsmunca
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Lines 26
Organization Memorial University StJohns Nfld Canada

In article 1993Apr1902035926996sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
  Can these questions be answered for a previous
  instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting
 
 Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files
 pau          3424346
 e              0151899
 i              10988
 cap_omega0 2435652
 W0         2311607
 epoch       197704110
 
 
 Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
 
 April  1973     83 jupiter radii
 August 1970     3 jupiter radii
 
 Where 1 Jupiter radius  71000 km  44000 mi  00005 AU  So the
 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
 Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
  
Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language

John Garland
jgarlandkeanucsmunca

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <C50zxA.1K9@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1ppm7j$ip@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>I thought the area rule was pioneered by Boeing.
|>NASA guys developed the rule,  but no-one knew if it worked
|>until Boeing built the hardware 727 and maybe the FB-111?????
|
|Nope.  The decisive triumph of the area rule was when Convair's YF-102 --
|contractually commmitted to being a Mach 1.5 fighter and actually found
|to be incapable of going supersonic in level flight -- was turned into
|the area-ruled YF-102A which met the specs.  This was well before either
|the 727 or the FB-111; the 102 flew in late 1953, and Convair spent most
|of the first half of 1954 figuring out what went wrong and most of the
|second half building the first 102A.
|-- 
|All work is one man's work.             | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
|                    - Kipling           |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry



Good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there.

I seem to recall, somebody built  or at least proposed a wasp waisetd
Passenger civil transport.  I thought it was a 727,  but maybe it
was a DC- 8,9???   Sure it had a funny passenger compartment,
but on the other hand  it seemed to save fuel.

I thought Area rules  applied even before transonic speeds,  just
not as badly.

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1ppm7jipaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
I thought the area rule was pioneered by Boeing
NASA guys developed the rule  but noone knew if it worked
until Boeing built the hardware 727 and maybe the FB111

Nope  The decisive triumph of the area rule was when Convairs YF102 
contractually commmitted to being a Mach 15 fighter and actually found
to be incapable of going supersonic in level flight  was turned into
the arearuled YF102A which met the specs  This was well before either
the 727 or the FB111 the 102 flew in late 1953 and Convair spent most
of the first half of 1954 figuring out what went wrong and most of the
second half building the first 102A
 
All work is one mans work              Henry Spencer  U of Toronto Zoology
                     Kipling             henryzootorontoedu  utzoohenry



Good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there

I seem to recall somebody built  or at least proposed a wasp waisetd
Passenger civil transport  I thought it was a 727  but maybe it
was a DC 89   Sure it had a funny passenger compartment
but on the other hand  it seemed to save fuel

I thought Area rules  applied even before transonic speeds  just
not as badly

pat

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 36

In <kmr4.1576.734879396@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:

>In article <1qj9gq$mg7@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank 
O'Dwyer) writes:

>>Is good logic *better* than bad?  Is good science better than bad?  

> By definition.


> great - good - okay - bad - horrible

>    << better
>       worse >>


> Good is defined as being better than bad.

>---
How do we come up with this setup?  Is this subjective, if enough people agreed
we could switch the order?  Isn't this defining one unknown thing by another? 
That is, good is that which is better than bad, and bad is that which is worse
than good?  Circular?

MAC
>   Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible. 
>        

--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 36

In  kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes

In article 1qj9gqmg7horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank 
ODwyer writes

Is good logic better than bad  Is good science better than bad  

 By definition


 great  good  okay  bad  horrible

     better
       worse 


 Good is defined as being better than bad


How do we come up with this setup  Is this subjective if enough people agreed
we could switch the order  Isnt this defining one unknown thing by another 
That is good is that which is better than bad and bad is that which is worse
than good  Circular

MAC
   Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible 
        



                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1ql0ajINN2kj@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>Well, chimps must have some system.  They live in social groups
>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.

	Why "must"?

--- 

        " Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "

        John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.



after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

Well chimps must have some system  They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior

	Why must

 

         Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken 

        John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word



preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 34

In article <1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu> SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET) writes:
>In <1qabe7INNaff@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu writes:
>
>>> Chimpanzees fight wars over land.
>> 
>> But chimps are almost human...
>> 
>> keith
>
>Could it be?  This is the last message from Mr. Schneider, and it's
>more than three days old!
>
>Are these his final words?  (And how many here would find that
>appropriate?)  Or is it just that finals got in the way?
>

  No. The christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman
  (seems so clandestine, and all that), so they had him removed.  Of
  course, Keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he
  isn't really being persecuted, since (after all) they *are*
  feeding him, and any resistance on his part would only be viewed
  as trouble making.  

  I understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed "In God
  We Trust" on his forehead, though.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re  SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu SCOTT D SAUYET writes
In 1qabe7INNaffgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu writes

 Chimpanzees fight wars over land
 
 But chimps are almost human
 
 keith

Could it be  This is the last message from Mr Schneider and its
more than three days old

Are these his final words  And how many here would find that
appropriate  Or is it just that finals got in the way


  No The christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman
  seems so clandestine and all that so they had him removed  Of
  course Keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he
  isnt really being persecuted since after all they are
  feeding him and any resistance on his part would only be viewed
  as trouble making  

  I understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed In God
  We Trust on his forehead though

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: NASA Special Publications for Voyager Mission?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 12

I have two books, both NASA Special Publications, on the Voyager 
Missions. One is titled "Voyages to Jupiter" the other "Voyage to Saturn" 
These were excellent books put together after the encounters with each 
planet. 

The question is: Did NASA ever put together a similar book for either the 
Uranus encounter or Neptune? If so, what SP number is it and where can it 
be obtained? If not, why didn't they?

--
  gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net  615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

after prepro  From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject NASA Special Publications for Voyager Mission
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 12

I have two books both NASA Special Publications on the Voyager 
Missions One is titled Voyages to Jupiter the other Voyage to Saturn 
These were excellent books put together after the encounters with each 
planet 

The question is Did NASA ever put together a similar book for either the 
Uranus encounter or Neptune If so what SP number is it and where can it 
be obtained If not why didnt they


  genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet  6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
Distribution: world,public
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <115847@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:

>Well, in 1984 one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority. One
>_is_ free to leave Islam. If one regards Islamic law as a curse one
>should consider leaving Islam.

	The only way out seems to be death.

---  

  " I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling "Traditional Family Values."





after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
Distribution worldpublic
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 115847buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes

Well in 1984 one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority One
_is_ free to leave Islam If one regards Islamic law as a curse one
should consider leaving Islam

	The only way out seems to be death

  

   Id Cheat on Hillary Too

   John Laws
   Local GOP Reprehensitive
   Extolling Traditional Family Values





preprocess doc  From: shread@ll.mit.edu ( Peter Shread)
Subject: El Sets
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: us
Lines: 5

I am looking for a source of orbital element sets
other than UAF/Space Command.  I believe there is
one on CompuServe.  Please let me know what other
possible sources there are and how I can reach 
them.  Thanks much.

after prepro  From shreadllmitedu  Peter Shread
Subject El Sets
Organization MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution us
Lines 5

I am looking for a source of orbital element sets
other than UAFSpace Command  I believe there is
one on CompuServe  Please let me know what other
possible sources there are and how I can reach 
them  Thanks much

preprocess doc  From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Level 5?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13


Nick Haines sez;
>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
>maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).

Level 5?  Out of how many?  What are the different levels?  I've never
heard of this rating system.  Anyone care to clue me in?

-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Level 5
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13


Nick Haines sez
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case

Level 5  Out of how many  What are the different levels  Ive never
heard of this rating system  Anyone care to clue me in

Tommy Mac

Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk   \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows


preprocess doc  From: jtk@s1.gov (Jordin Kare)
Subject: Re: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: LLNL
Lines: 96
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: s1.gov

yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993  Washington, DC
>
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.
>
>This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of.  Does anyone
>know if he's involved?

No.  The idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible
near-term commercial space activities.  One of the folks involved in those
discussions, a
spacecraft engineer named Preston Carter, passed the suggestion on to 
some entreprenurial types, and Mike Lawson is apparently going ahead with
it.  Preston is now at LLNL, and is working with Space Marketing on 
the sensors that might be carried.
>
>>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. 

Actually, that sounds unlikely.  I don't know what the launch vehicle
would be, but I would expect it to go on a commercial launcher --
certainly not on the Shuttle -- and the fraction of the cost paid to NASA
for, e.g.,  launch support would probably 
cover NASA's incremental costs pretty well.

>>This
>>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
>
>This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people.  My
>guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
>build large, inflatable space structures.

No, as noted, LLNL is involved in lightweight sensor design, per 
Clementine and related programs.  I'm sure folks around here would like to 
see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure, but after all, 
the U.S. did the Echo satellites long ago, and an advertising structure
would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than Echo was
(or a parade balloon, for that matter).
>
>>..........
>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.

While I happen to personally dislike the idea, mostly because I've got
a background in astronomy, it's hardly vandalism -- it would be a short-lived
intrusion on the night sky, doing no permanent damage and actually hurting
only a small subset of astronomers.  On the other hand, it would certainly
draw attention to space.   
>
>If this is true, I think it's a great idea.
>
>Learning how to build structures in space in an essential
>step towards space development...

Which, unfortunately, this is not likely to contribute much to.

>If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
>creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so
>much the better.
>
>>Is NASA really supporting this junk?

As far as I know, it's a purely commercial venture.
>
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip?  How serious is this project?  Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?

I gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers.
Commercial projects, however, generally don't get "funding" -- they
get "customers" -- whether it will have customers remains to be seen.
>
>>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
>
>Not yet.  Though, if this project goes through, I suppose The Return
>of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable...

Nahh.  He's too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in
the sky :-)

>
>Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
>yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science

Jordin Kare	jtk@s1.gov	Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

[These are my personal views only and do not represent official statements
or positions of LLNL, the University of California, or the U.S. DOE.]

after prepro  From jtks1gov Jordin Kare
Subject Re Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization LLNL
Lines 96
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost s1gov

yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993  Washington DC

Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit

This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of  Does anyone
know if hes involved

No  The idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible
nearterm commercial space activities  One of the folks involved in those
discussions a
spacecraft engineer named Preston Carter passed the suggestion on to 
some entreprenurial types and Mike Lawson is apparently going ahead with
it  Preston is now at LLNL and is working with Space Marketing on 
the sensors that might be carried

NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense 

Actually that sounds unlikely  I dont know what the launch vehicle
would be but I would expect it to go on a commercial launcher 
certainly not on the Shuttle  and the fraction of the cost paid to NASA
for eg  launch support would probably 
cover NASAs incremental costs pretty well

This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs

This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people  My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large inflatable space structures

No as noted LLNL is involved in lightweight sensor design per 
Clementine and related programs  Im sure folks around here would like to 
see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure but after all 
the US did the Echo satellites long ago and an advertising structure
would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than Echo was
or a parade balloon for that matter


What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore

While I happen to personally dislike the idea mostly because Ive got
a background in astronomy its hardly vandalism  it would be a shortlived
intrusion on the night sky doing no permanent damage and actually hurting
only a small subset of astronomers  On the other hand it would certainly
draw attention to space   

If this is true I think its a great idea

Learning how to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development

Which unfortunately this is not likely to contribute much to

If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of partial private sector funding in the process  so
much the better

Is NASA really supporting this junk

As far as I know its a purely commercial venture

And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip  How serious is this project  Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding

I gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers
Commercial projects however generally dont get funding  they
get customers  whether it will have customers remains to be seen

Are protesting groups being organized in the States

Not yet  Though if this project goes through I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable

Nahh  Hes too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in
the sky 


Brian Yamauchi			Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu	Department of Computer Engineering and Science

Jordin Kare	jtks1gov	Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

[These are my personal views only and do not represent official statements
or positions of LLNL the University of California or the US DOE]

preprocess doc  From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M., again
Nntp-Posting-Host: nin
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Lines: 30

In article <1993Apr13.213527.3706@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:

> How about people who are not religous?  Take the inner city.  There are
> many people that care little for religion.  Lot of crime.  Lot of
> murder.  This is the other end- lack of religion- that allows wrong to
> happen.

I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half, and one of the many reasons why
I intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can
walk anywhere (and I mean *anywhere*) at any time of day or night and not
feel uneasy, even if one's from an ethnic minority as I was.

Clues for Bobby (why do I bother?): (i) Tokyo is a city, and inner Tokyo
is an inner city; (ii) there is a negligible level of violent crime, and
a street murder will be a lead item on *national* TV news; (iii) the
population is almost universally atheistic.

Next time I go for a stroll around Beirut at night, I'll let you know how
it compares.

> Bobby Mozumder

Cheers

Simon
-- 
Simon Clippingdale                simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science    Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.

after prepro  From simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale
Subject Re note to Bobby M again
NntpPostingHost nin
Organization Department of Computer Science Warwick University England
Lines 30

In article 1993Apr132135273706ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder  writes

 How about people who are not religous  Take the inner city  There are
 many people that care little for religion  Lot of crime  Lot of
 murder  This is the other end lack of religion that allows wrong to
 happen

I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half and one of the many reasons why
I intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can
walk anywhere and I mean anywhere at any time of day or night and not
feel uneasy even if ones from an ethnic minority as I was

Clues for Bobby why do I bother i Tokyo is a city and inner Tokyo
is an inner city ii there is a negligible level of violent crime and
a street murder will be a lead item on national TV news iii the
population is almost universally atheistic

Next time I go for a stroll around Beirut at night Ill let you know how
it compares

 Bobby Mozumder

Cheers

Simon
 
Simon Clippingdale                simondcswarwickacuk
Department of Computer Science    Tel 44 203 523296
University of Warwick             FAX 44 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL UK

preprocess doc  From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 21

In <16BA6C947.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:

>In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
> 
>>There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
>>marriage.
>>
>>I personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships
>>between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure
>>environment for children to grow up in.
>(Deletion)
> 
>As an addition to Chris Faehl's post, what about homosexuals?

Well, from an Islamic viewpoint, homosexuality is not the norm for
society.  I cannot really say much about the Islamic viewpoint on homosexuality 
as it is not something I have done much research on.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

after prepro  From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 21

In 16BA6C947I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes

In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
 
There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
marriage

I personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships
between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure
environment for children to grow up in
Deletion
 
As an addition to Chris Faehls post what about homosexuals

Well from an Islamic viewpoint homosexuality is not the norm for
society  I cannot really say much about the Islamic viewpoint on homosexuality 
as it is not something I have done much research on

 Fred Rice
 dariceyoyoccmonasheduau   

preprocess doc  From: xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Space Station radio commercial
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 13

A brief political/cultural item.

Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials (elected and otherwise).  
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes, diamond
jewelry, expensive resorts and (truthfully) Trident submarines.

This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project.
Didn't catch the advertiser.

Guess they're pulling out all the stops.
-- 
Chuck Divine

after prepro  From xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Space Station radio commercial
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 13

A brief politicalcultural item

Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise  
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes diamond
jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully Trident submarines

This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project
Didnt catch the advertiser

Guess theyre pulling out all the stops
 
Chuck Divine

preprocess doc  From: mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: MDSSC
Lines: 32

In article <1r3nuvINNjep@lynx.unm.edu>, cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
> All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year 
> moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
> development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
> Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.
> But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
> realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.
> Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of 
> today?

  The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
and-civilized areas are obvious.  Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.  It didn't require gov't to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination.  In practice, some were gov't funded, some were private.
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
  I am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop,
and large numbers of people will live and work off-Earth.  But if you ask
me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base, I
can't give them.  We just don't know enough.  The launch rate demanded by
existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much, and
we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries
will be, when they will practical, how much will have to be invested to
start them, etc.

-- 
 Keith Mancus    <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov>                           |
 N5WVR           <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>                        |
 "Black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall,          |
  when your back's against the wall...." -Leslie Fish                  |

after prepro  From mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization MDSSC
Lines 32

In article 1r3nuvINNjeplynxunmedu cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
 All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year 
 moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace 
 development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of 
 Saint Louis venture to his financial backers
 But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to 
 realize that much more was at stake than 25000
 Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of 
 today

  The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious  Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery  It didnt require govt to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination  In practice some were govt funded some were private
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff
  I am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop
and large numbers of people will live and work offEarth  But if you ask
me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base I
cant give them  We just dont know enough  The launch rate demanded by
existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much and
we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries
will be when they will practical how much will have to be invested to
start them etc

 
 Keith Mancus                               
 N5WVR                                   
 Black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall          
  when your backs against the wall Leslie Fish                  

preprocess doc  From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 109


My turn to jump in! :)

In article <1pi8h5INNq40@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>(reference line trimmed)
>
>livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>[...]
>
>>There is a good deal more confusion here.   You started off with the 
>>assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
>>here, you finished up with a recursive definition.   Murder is 
>>"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
>>requires an appeal to morality.
>

I think you mean circular, not recursive, but that is semantics.
Recursiveness has no problems, it is just horribly inefficient (just ask
any assembly programmer.)

>Yes.
>
>>Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little.   Now you are
>>asking what is the "goal"?   What do you mean by "goal?".   Are you
>>suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
>>and we form our morals to achieve it?
>
>Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
>propogation of the species.  Another example of a moral system is
>presented within the Declaration of Independence, which states that we
>should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  You see,
>to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system.  That is,
>we shall be moral unto what end?

The oft-quoted line that says people should be guaranteed life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights, is a complete lie
and deception, as the very authors of that line were in the process of
proving.  Liberty is never free, it is always purchased at some cost, 
almost always at the cost to another.  Whos liberty is more inalienable?
Similarly for right of life.  When one person must die if he is to save
another, or even a group of others, whos life is more inalienable?  
That leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty, 
especially for serial killers.  Whos life and liberty is more valuable,
the serial killer, or the victim?  According to that beautiful line,
those two rights should be completely inviolate, that is, noone should be
able to remove them.  This _includes_ government.  Admittedly the serial
killer has restricted some people's life and/or liberty, but is not his
own life/liberty inviolate also?  According to the declaration of independence,
it is.

>>>Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule.  And, I thought I had
>>>defined murder as an intentional killing of a non-murderer, against his will.

Oooh, I like that.  It means that killing an infant is not murder because
it cannot be against its will.  Reason, an infant has no will as such.

Similarly for people who are brain dead (easier to see), in a coma, etc.

Also, under current law, accidental killing is still murder.  How will you
include that?

>>>And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
>>>innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not.
>>>I fail to see what this has to do with anything.  I never claimed that our
>>>system of morality was an objective one.
>>I thought that was your very first claim.   That there was
>>some kind of "objective" morality, and that an example of that was
>>that murder is wrong.   If you don't want to claim that any more,
>>that's fine.

The only real golden rule in life is, he who has the gold, makes the
rules.  I.e. Might Makes Right.  That is survival.  Now what is wrong
with that?

>Well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most
>every moral system.  However, I am not assuming that our current system
>and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral.  I think that
>it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect.

If you mean the golden rule as I stated, yes, almost every system as
implemented has used that in reality.  Sorry, I don't deal as much in
fiction, as I do in reality.  

>>And by the way, you don't seem to understand the difference between
>>"arbitrary" and "objective".   If Keith Schneider "defines" murder
>>to be this that and the other, that's arbitrary.   Jon Livesey may
>>still say "Well, according to my personal system of morality, all
>>killing of humans against their will is murder, and wrong, and what
>>the legal definition of murder may be in the USA, Kuweit, Saudi
>>Arabia, or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me".

WELCOME TO OZLAND!!!!!!! :)

What is NOT arbitrary?  If you can find some part of society, some societal
rules, morals, etc. that are not arbitrary, please tell me.  I don't think
there are any.

>Well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
>concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning.
>
>keith
Sounds like euphemisms to me.  The difference seems to be, that objective
is some reasoning that I like, while arbitrary is some reasoning that
I don't like OR don't understand. 

M^2



after prepro  From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
reference line trimmed

liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

[]

There is a good deal more confusion here   You started off with the 
assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
here you finished up with a recursive definition   Murder is 
objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
requires an appeal to morality


I think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics
Recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask
any assembly programmer

Yes

Now you have switch targets a little but only a little   Now you are
asking what is the goal   What do you mean by goal   Are you
suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
and we form our morals to achieve it

Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
propogation of the species  Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness  You see
to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system  That is
we shall be moral unto what end

The oftquoted line that says people should be guaranteed life liberty
and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights is a complete lie
and deception as the very authors of that line were in the process of
proving  Liberty is never free it is always purchased at some cost 
almost always at the cost to another  Whos liberty is more inalienable
Similarly for right of life  When one person must die if he is to save
another or even a group of others whos life is more inalienable  
That leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty 
especially for serial killers  Whos life and liberty is more valuable
the serial killer or the victim  According to that beautiful line
those two rights should be completely inviolate that is noone should be
able to remove them  This _includes_ government  Admittedly the serial
killer has restricted some peoples life andor liberty but is not his
own lifeliberty inviolate also  According to the declaration of independence
it is

Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule  And I thought I had
defined murder as an intentional killing of a nonmurderer against his will

Oooh I like that  It means that killing an infant is not murder because
it cannot be against its will  Reason an infant has no will as such

Similarly for people who are brain dead easier to see in a coma etc

Also under current law accidental killing is still murder  How will you
include that

And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not
I fail to see what this has to do with anything  I never claimed that our
system of morality was an objective one
I thought that was your very first claim   That there was
some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was
that murder is wrong   If you dont want to claim that any more
thats fine

The only real golden rule in life is he who has the gold makes the
rules  Ie Might Makes Right  That is survival  Now what is wrong
with that

Well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system  However I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral  I think that
it is a very good approximation but we cant be perfect

If you mean the golden rule as I stated yes almost every system as
implemented has used that in reality  Sorry I dont deal as much in
fiction as I do in reality  

And by the way you dont seem to understand the difference between
arbitrary and objective   If Keith Schneider defines murder
to be this that and the other thats arbitrary   Jon Livesey may
still say Well according to my personal system of morality all
killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what
the legal definition of murder may be in the USA Kuweit Saudi
Arabia or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me

WELCOME TO OZLAND 

What is NOT arbitrary  If you can find some part of society some societal
rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell me  I dont think
there are any

Well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning

keith
Sounds like euphemisms to me  The difference seems to be that objective
is some reasoning that I like while arbitrary is some reasoning that
I dont like OR dont understand 

M^2



preprocess doc  From: drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Quaint US Archaisms
Article-I.D.: news.1993Apr06.090626.21880
Organization: Mentor Graphics
Lines: 14
Originator: drickel@bounce
Nntp-Posting-Host: bounce.mentorg.com


In article <C512wC.B0M.1@cs.cmu.edu>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> Oh, and the other advantage is that you don't have shit constants like
|> 32.??? hanging around.

No, instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 31556925.9747 and
299792.458 and 9.80665 and ...

How many cc's in a ml anyway?  The metric system has its problems, just not
as many of them.


david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com

after prepro  From drickelbouncementorgcom Dave Rickel
Subject Re Quaint US Archaisms
ArticleID news1993Apr0609062621880
Organization Mentor Graphics
Lines 14
Originator drickelbounce
NntpPostingHost bouncementorgcom


In article  nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
 Oh and the other advantage is that you dont have shit constants like
 32 hanging around

No instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 315569259747 and
299792458 and 980665 and 

How many ccs in a ml anyway  The metric system has its problems just not
as many of them


david rickel
drickelsjcmentorgcom

preprocess doc  From: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Private Computer, Totowa, NJ
Lines: 18

In article <1993Mar31.191658.9836@mksol.dseg.ti.com: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
:Just a bit off, Phil.  We don't reprocess nuclear fuel because what
:you get from the reprocessing plant is bomb-grade plutonium.  It is
:also cheaper, given current prices of things, to simply fabricate new
:fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones, creating potentially
:dangerous materials (from a national security point of view) and then
:fabricate that back into fuel rods.

Fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go
kind of boom, but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium.  If you want bomb
grade plutonium use a research reactor, not a power reactor.  But if you want
a bomb, don't use plutonium, use uranium.

-- 
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to ken@eies2.njit.edu for now.
"All this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting
on someone's table" -- J.L. Picard: ST:TNG

after prepro  From kensugrauucp Kenneth Ng
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Private Computer Totowa NJ
Lines 18

In article 1993Mar311916589836mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
Just a bit off Phil  We dont reprocess nuclear fuel because what
you get from the reprocessing plant is bombgrade plutonium  It is
also cheaper given current prices of things to simply fabricate new
fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones creating potentially
dangerous materials from a national security point of view and then
fabricate that back into fuel rods

Fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go
kind of boom but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium  If you want bomb
grade plutonium use a research reactor not a power reactor  But if you want
a bomb dont use plutonium use uranium

 
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to keneies2njitedu for now
All this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting
on someones table  JL Picard STTNG

preprocess doc  From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Lines: 34

In article <20APR199321040621@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes...
>In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes...
>>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts.  For
>>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.  
> 
>It can be, but the problem is a political one, not a technical one.

Also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode
(probably a spin-stabilized sun-pointing orientation) is a dollar not
spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft.  In order to turn the
spacecraft back on, you either need to insure that the Ops guys will be
available, or you need to retrain a new team.

Having said that, there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed.
Many of the operational satellites Goddard flies (like the Tiros NOAA 
series) require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set.
Extras which get replaced on-orbit are powered into a "standby" mode for
use in an emergency.  In that case, however, the same ops team is still
required to fly the operational birds; so the standby maintenance is
relatively cheap.

Finally, Pat's explanation (some spacecraft require continuous maintenance
to stay under control) is also right on the mark.  I suggested a spin-
stabilized control mode because it would require little power or 
maintenance, but it still might require some momentum dumping from time
to time.

In the end, it *is* a political decision (since the difference is money),
but there is some technical rationale behind the decision.

David W. @ GSFC  

after prepro  From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1  
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center  Robotics Lab
Lines 34

In article 20APR199321040621kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts  For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again  
 
It can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one

Also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode
probably a spinstabilized sunpointing orientation is a dollar not
spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft  In order to turn the
spacecraft back on you either need to insure that the Ops guys will be
available or you need to retrain a new team

Having said that there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed
Many of the operational satellites Goddard flies like the Tiros NOAA 
series require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set
Extras which get replaced onorbit are powered into a standby mode for
use in an emergency  In that case however the same ops team is still
required to fly the operational birds so the standby maintenance is
relatively cheap

Finally Pats explanation some spacecraft require continuous maintenance
to stay under control is also right on the mark  I suggested a spin
stabilized control mode because it would require little power or 
maintenance but it still might require some momentum dumping from time
to time

In the end it is a political decision since the difference is money
but there is some technical rationale behind the decision

David W  GSFC  

preprocess doc  From: kilman2y@fiu.edu (Yevgeny (Gene) Kilman)
Subject: Re: USAToday ad ("family values")
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Lines: 15

In article <C4rzz2.47J@unix.portal.com> danb@shell.portal.com (Dan E Babcock) writes:
>There was a funny ad in USAToday from "American Family Association".
>I'll post a few choice parts for your enjoyment (all emphases is in
>the ad; I'm not adding anything). All the typos are mine. :)

[Dan's article deleted]

I found the same add in our local Sunday newspaper.
The add was placed in the ..... cartoon section!
The perfect place for it ! :-)

Y.K.




after prepro  From kilman2yfiuedu Yevgeny Gene Kilman
Subject Re USAToday ad family values
Organization Florida International University Miami
Lines 15

In article  danbshellportalcom Dan E Babcock writes
There was a funny ad in USAToday from American Family Association
Ill post a few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases is in
the ad Im not adding anything All the typos are mine 

[Dans article deleted]

I found the same add in our local Sunday newspaper
The add was placed in the  cartoon section
The perfect place for it  

YK




preprocess doc  Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 47

In article <1993Apr3.212139.14076@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <1pj9bs$d4j@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>I would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense
>>as bad as many.   We certainly feel that way when we punish
>>someone for a single murder.
>>Now if we reform system X, by reducing the number of deaths
>>by one, we produce system XX.    I'd say we should not go back
>>to system X, even though by doing so we would re-introduce only 
>>a single extra death.
>
>Bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than
>the one you indicate.
>--

  Yes, I do.  

  My argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to
  kill people.  That is it's primary (and I would argue only)
  purpose.  To continue to kill people by a practice that has
  almost no utility, especially when you know you will be killing
  innocents, is unconscionable.

  At the very least, the existence of the prison system and our
  transportation system are based on their merits to society, not
  their detriments.  We are willing to accept a few lost innocent
  lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued
  existence of these systems.  One has to stretch the evidence and
  the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment.

  Just in case I wasn't clear again:  We maintain a capital
  punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with
  no net positive gain.  Why?

  Were you to pin me in a corner and ask, I would have to respond
  that I don't belief the state should have the right to take life
  at all.  But I won't open that debate, as it seems others are
  tiring of this thread on a.a anyway.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

after prepro  Subject Re  arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
In article 1pj9bsd4jfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense
as bad as many   We certainly feel that way when we punish
someone for a single murder
Now if we reform system X by reducing the number of deaths
by one we produce system XX    Id say we should not go back
to system X even though by doing so we would reintroduce only 
a single extra death

Bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than
the one you indicate


  Yes I do  

  My argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to
  kill people  That is its primary and I would argue only
  purpose  To continue to kill people by a practice that has
  almost no utility especially when you know you will be killing
  innocents is unconscionable

  At the very least the existence of the prison system and our
  transportation system are based on their merits to society not
  their detriments  We are willing to accept a few lost innocent
  lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued
  existence of these systems  One has to stretch the evidence and
  the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment

  Just in case I wasnt clear again  We maintain a capital
  punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with
  no net positive gain  Why

  Were you to pin me in a corner and ask I would have to respond
  that I dont belief the state should have the right to take life
  at all  But I wont open that debate as it seems others are
  tiring of this thread on aa anyway


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

preprocess doc  Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 28

In article <115621@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.135650.28926@st-andrews.ac.uk> nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson) writes:
> 
>>I don't think you're right about Germany.  My daughter was born there and
>>I don't think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there (beyond the
>>rights of all EC citizens).  She is a British citizen by virtue of
>>her parentage, but that's not "full" citizenship.  For example, I don't think
>>her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way.
> 
> I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
> application for it. It might require immigration to Germany, but
> I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
> in this case.

Nope, Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws.  The 
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years 
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany, but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany can't.
It's not a very good example to show citizenship without descent.

Karl
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope      | "All you touch and all you see  |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition -       | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall."  --Duke |                 --Pink Floyd    |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|         A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it.         |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

after prepro  Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 28

In article 115621buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
 In article 1993Apr1513565028926standrewsacuk nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson writes
 
I dont think youre right about Germany  My daughter was born there and
I dont think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there beyond the
rights of all EC citizens  She is a British citizen by virtue of
her parentage but thats not full citizenship  For example I dont think
her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way
 
 I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
 application for it It might require immigration to Germany but
 I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
 in this case

Nope Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws  The 
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years 
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany cant
Its not a very good example to show citizenship without descent

Karl
 
 Lastly I come to China in the hope       All you touch and all you see  
 of fulfilling a lifelong ambition         Is all your life will ever be 
 dropping acid on the Great Wall  Duke                  Pink Floyd    

         A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it         
 

preprocess doc  From: freed@nss.org (Bev Freed)
Subject: FAQs
Organization: The NSS BBS, Pittsburgh PA (412) 366-5208
Lines: 8

I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly.  Every 28-30 days, I get this bloated feeling.
 


--  
Bev Freed - via FidoNet node 1:129/104
UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!freed
INTERNET: freed@nss.org

after prepro  From freednssorg Bev Freed
Subject FAQs
Organization The NSS BBS Pittsburgh PA 412 3665208
Lines 8

I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly  Every 2830 days I get this bloated feeling
 


  
Bev Freed  via FidoNet node 1129104
UUCP pittnssfreed
INTERNET freednssorg

preprocess doc  From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: NASP
Distribution: sci
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 39

I have before me a pertinent report from the United States General
Accounting Office:

National Aero-Space Plane: Restructuring Future Research and Development
Efforts
December 1992
Report number GAO/NSIAD-93-71

In the back it lists the following related reports:

NASP: Key Issues Facing the Program (31 Mar 92) GAO/T-NSIAD-92-26

Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Japan and Australia
(4 Oct 91) GAO/NSIAD-92-5

Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Europe (25 July 91)
GAO/NSIAD-91-194

Aerospace Technology: Technical Data and Information on Foreign
Test Facilities (22 Jun 90) GAO/NSIAD-90-71FS

Investment in Foreign Aerospace Vehicle Research and Technological
Development Efforts (2 Aug 89) GAO/T-NSIAD-89-43

NASP: A Technology Development and Demonstration Program to Build
the X-30 (27 Apr 88) GAO/NSIAD-88-122


On the inside back cover, under "Ordering Information" it says

"The first copy of each GAO report is free.  . . .  Orders
may also be placed by calling (202)275-6241
"

Dani

-- 
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.

after prepro  From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re NASP
Distribution sci
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 39

I have before me a pertinent report from the United States General
Accounting Office

National AeroSpace Plane Restructuring Future Research and Development
Efforts
December 1992
Report number GAONSIAD9371

In the back it lists the following related reports

NASP Key Issues Facing the Program 31 Mar 92 GAOTNSIAD9226

Aerospace Plane Technology RD Efforts in Japan and Australia
4 Oct 91 GAONSIAD925

Aerospace Plane Technology RD Efforts in Europe 25 July 91
GAONSIAD91194

Aerospace Technology Technical Data and Information on Foreign
Test Facilities 22 Jun 90 GAONSIAD9071FS

Investment in Foreign Aerospace Vehicle Research and Technological
Development Efforts 2 Aug 89 GAOTNSIAD8943

NASP A Technology Development and Demonstration Program to Build
the X30 27 Apr 88 GAONSIAD88122


On the inside back cover under Ordering Information it says

The first copy of each GAO report is free      Orders
may also be placed by calling 2022756241


Dani

 
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:

>>If I kill this person [an innocent person convicted of murder],
>>then a murder would be committed, but I would not be the murderer.  At least,
>>I wouldn't "reasonably" be considered a murderer, with "reasonable" being
>>introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be
>>totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information.
>If society collective decides to carry the burden of executing
>it's citizens, then it also carries the blame for their innocent
>blood.  Each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of
>capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and
>every innocent victim of the system.

Why are only those people in favor of the system to blame.  If society
accepts such a system, then each member of society is to blame when
an innocent person gets executed.  Those that are not in favor should
work to convince others.

And, most members of our society have accepted the blame--they've considered
the risk to be acceptable.  Similarly, every person who drives must accept
the blame for fatal traffic accidents.  This is something that is surely
going to happen when so many people are driving.  It is all a question of
what risk is acceptable.  It is much more likely that an innocent person
will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu

bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes

If I kill this person [an innocent person convicted of murder]
then a murder would be committed but I would not be the murderer  At least
I wouldnt reasonably be considered a murderer with reasonable being
introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be
totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information
If society collective decides to carry the burden of executing
its citizens then it also carries the blame for their innocent
blood  Each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of
capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and
every innocent victim of the system

Why are only those people in favor of the system to blame  If society
accepts such a system then each member of society is to blame when
an innocent person gets executed  Those that are not in favor should
work to convince others

And most members of our society have accepted the blametheyve considered
the risk to be acceptable  Similarly every person who drives must accept
the blame for fatal traffic accidents  This is something that is surely
going to happen when so many people are driving  It is all a question of
what risk is acceptable  It is much more likely that an innocent person
will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed

keith

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 62
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

(reference line trimmed)

SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET) writes:

>First, I'll make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one
>who has commited murder.

Well, I'd say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder.
For instance, if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain
blanks, and someone was killed with such a gun, the person who actually
performed the action isn't the murderer (but I guess this is actually made
clear in the below definition).

>I'd be interested to see a more reasonable definition. 

What do you mean by "reasonable?"

>Otherwise, your inductive definition doesn't bottom out:
>Your definition, in essence, is that
>>Murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited 
>>murder, against his will.
>Expanding the second occurence of `murder' in the above, we see that
[...]

Yes, it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition.  But,
even though the series is recursively infinite, I think the meaning can
still be deduced.

>I assume you can see the problem here.  To do a correct inductive
>definition, you must define something in terms of a simpler case, and
>you must have one or several "bottoming out" cases.  For instance, we
>can define the factorial function (the function which assigns to a
>positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or
>equal to it) on the positive integers inductively as follows:

[math lesson deleted]

Okay, let's look at this situation:  suppose there is a longstanding
feud between two families which claim that the other committed some
travesty in the distant past.  Each time a member of the one family
kills a member of the other, the other family thinks that it is justified
in killing a that member of the first family.  Now, let's suppose that this
sequence has occurred an infinite number of times.  Or, if you don't
like dealing with infinities, suppose that one member of the family
goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing.  That is, there
is a never-ending loop of slayings based on some non-existent travesty.
How do you resolve this?

Well, they are all murders.

Now, I suppose that this isn't totally applicable to your "problem," but
it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system.

And, in any case, the nested "murderer" in the definition of murder
cannot be infintely recursive, given the finite existence of humanity.
And, a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved.  So, the
first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily
a murderer.  Is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently
unreducable definition?  See, in a totally objective system where all the
information is available, such a nested definition isn't really a problem.

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re First Ill make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one
who has commited murder

Well Id say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder
For instance if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain
blanks and someone was killed with such a gun the person who actually
performed the action isnt the murderer but I guess this is actually made
clear in the below definition

Id be interested to see a more reasonable definition 

What do you mean by reasonable

Otherwise your inductive definition doesnt bottom out
Your definition in essence is that
Murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited 
murder against his will
Expanding the second occurence of `murder in the above we see that
[]

Yes it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition  But
even though the series is recursively infinite I think the meaning can
still be deduced

I assume you can see the problem here  To do a correct inductive
definition you must define something in terms of a simpler case and
you must have one or several bottoming out cases  For instance we
can define the factorial function the function which assigns to a
positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or
equal to it on the positive integers inductively as follows

[math lesson deleted]

Okay lets look at this situation  suppose there is a longstanding
feud between two families which claim that the other committed some
travesty in the distant past  Each time a member of the one family
kills a member of the other the other family thinks that it is justified
in killing a that member of the first family  Now lets suppose that this
sequence has occurred an infinite number of times  Or if you dont
like dealing with infinities suppose that one member of the family
goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing  That is there
is a neverending loop of slayings based on some nonexistent travesty
How do you resolve this

Well they are all murders

Now I suppose that this isnt totally applicable to your problem but
it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system

And in any case the nested murderer in the definition of murder
cannot be infintely recursive given the finite existence of humanity
And a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved  So the
first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily
a murderer  Is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently
unreducable definition  See in a totally objective system where all the
information is available such a nested definition isnt really a problem

keith

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Motto Mania
Lines: 33

mathew writes:

>I prefer Mark-Jason Dominus's suggestion that the motto should be changed to
>"Mind your own fucking business".

In this era of AIDS, isn't someone's fucking *everyone's* interest?  (semi
:-))

I propose "We have no motto."

Recently in the glorious state of Maryland (the only state whose state song
refers to Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant), people have gotten all wound up over
the state motto (which we inherited from the Calverts):

    "Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine"

which, if you read Italian, says,

    "Manly deeds, womanly words"

or something to that effect.  In the state which not so long ago had four
women out of seven representatives, this represents a problem.  The official
solution was to change the translation, so now it means:

    "Strong deeds, gentle words"

My personal suggestion was changing it to "walk softly and carry a big
stick."
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Motto Mania
Lines 33

mathew writes

I prefer MarkJason Dominuss suggestion that the motto should be changed to
Mind your own fucking business

In this era of AIDS isnt someones fucking everyones interest  semi


I propose We have no motto

Recently in the glorious state of Maryland the only state whose state song
refers to Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant people have gotten all wound up over
the state motto which we inherited from the Calverts

    Fatti Maschii Parole Femine

which if you read Italian says

    Manly deeds womanly words

or something to that effect  In the state which not so long ago had four
women out of seven representatives this represents a problem  The official
solution was to change the translation so now it means

    Strong deeds gentle words

My personal suggestion was changing it to walk softly and carry a big
stick
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions
Summary: Please read this file before posting to alt.atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Fri, 14 May 1993 09:39:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930315114603@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 733

Archive-name: atheism/faq
Alt-atheism-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.1

                    Alt.Atheism Frequently-Asked Questions

This file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in
alt.atheism.  Points covered here are ones which are not covered in the
"Introduction to Atheism"; you are advised to read that article as well
before posting.

These answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive. The purpose of
the periodic FAQ postings is not to stifle debate, but to raise its level. If
you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isn't
covered by the answer given, please feel free to make your point.

Overview of contents:

   "What is the purpose of this newsgroup?"
   "Hitler was an atheist!"
   "The Bible proves it"
   "Pascal's Wager"
   "What is Occam's Razor?"
   "Why it's good to believe in Jesus"
   "Why I know that God exists"
   "Einstein and "God does not play dice""
   "Everyone worships something"
   "Why there must be a causeless cause"
   "The universe is so complex it must have been designed"
   "Independent evidence that the Bible is true"
   "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem"
   "George Bush on atheism and patriotism"
   "I know where hell is!"
   "Biblical contradictions wanted"
   "The USA is a Christian nation"
   "The USA is not a Christian nation"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: What is the purpose of this newsgroup?

Typical posting:

Why have a newsgroup about atheism?  Why do atheists organize in groups?  
What is there to discuss?

Response:

Many things are discussed here, including:

* Whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting one's
  family
* Prayer in schools
* Discrimination against atheists
* Sunday trading laws
* The Satanic Child Abuse myth
* Whether one should be an overt atheist or 'stay in the closet'
* How religious societies prey (sic) on new college students
* How to get rid of unwanted proselytizers
* Whether religion is a danger to society and/or the individual
* Why people become atheists

Of course, inevitably alt.atheism tends to attract evangelical Christians
looking for someone to convert.  Most readers of the newsgroup don't 
want to be preached to, although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure 
from tearing apart particularly ill-considered or uninformed postings.

------------------------------

Subject: Hitler was an atheist!

Typical posting:

Hitler was an atheist, and look at what he did!

Response:

Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist.  As he said himself:

   The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
   his own denomination, of making _people_stop_just_talking_
   superficially_of_God's_will,_and_actually_fulfill_God's_will,_and_
   not_let_God's_word_be_desecrated._[orig. ital.]

   For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their
   abilities.  Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
   Lord's creation, the divine will.  Therefore, let every man be
   active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every
   man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
   in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
   religious community and tries to butt into the other.

   [...]

   Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
   of the Almighty Creator: _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew,_I_am_
   fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord._[orig. ital.]

          -- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", trans. Ralph Mannheim.

Of course, someone bad believing something does not make that belief
wrong.  It's also entirely possible that Hitler was lying when he claimed 
to believe in God.  We certainly can't conclude that he's an atheist, 
though.

------------------------------

Subject: The Bible proves it

Typical posting:

In the Bible it says that...

Response:

Most of the readers of alt.atheism feel that the Bible is of questionable
accuracy, as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before.  Thus, any claimed
'truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy.  This isn't to say that The
Bible has no truth in it; simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted.

Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to "interpretation", any claim that a passage 'means' one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate.

Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books.

It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion.

------------------------------

Subject: Pascal's Wager

Typical posting:

If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing --
but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to
hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist.

Response:

This argument is known as Pascal's Wager.  It has several flaws.

Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow.  Indeed, there are
many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there.  This is often
described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem.  If a person is a
follower of religion X, he may end up in religion Y's version of hell.

Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true.  Suppose you're believing in
the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness.
Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in
favour of prayer.

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that 
the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that they are of 
comparable likelihood.  If, in fact, the possibility of there being a God 
is close to zero, the argument becomes much less persuasive.  So sadly the
argument is only likely to convince those who believe already.

Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on 
evidence, with some amount of intuition.  It is not a matter of will or 
cost-benefit analysis.

Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

  1. One does not know whether God exists.
  2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does
     exist.
  3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
  4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.

There are two approaches to the argument.  The first is to view 1 as an
assumption, and 2 as a consequence of it.  One problem with this approach, in
the abstract, is that it creates information from no information.  This is
considered invalid in information theory.  Statement 1 indicates one has no
information about God -- but statement 2 indicates that beneficial information
can be gained from the absolute lack of information about God.  This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no information, at
no "cost".

The alternative approach is to claim that 1 and 2 are both assumptions.  The
problem with this is that 2 is then basically an assumption which states the
Christian position, and only a Christian will agree with that assumption. The
argument thus collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests
to believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed.

The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
a wager.  He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all
whether people believe in him.

------------------------------

Subject: What is Occam's Razor?

Typical posting:

People keep talking about Occam's Razor.  What is it?

Response:

William of Occam formulated a principle which has become known as Occam's 
Razor.  In its original form, it said "Do not multiply entities 
unnecessarily."  That is, if you can explain something without supposing
the existence of some entity, then do so.

Nowadays when people refer to Occam's Razor, they generally express it 
more generally, for example as "Take the simplest solution".

The relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations 
for what we see around us:

1. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, which
came into being as a result of natural processes.

2. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, and 
there is also a God who created the universe.  Clearly this God must be 
of non-zero complexity.

Given that both explanations fit the facts, Occam's Razor might suggest 
that we should take the simpler of the two -- solution number one.
Unfortunately, some argue that there is a third even more simple solution:

3. There isn't an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there.  
We just imagine that there is.

This third option leads us logically towards solipsism, which many people 
find unacceptable.
 
------------------------------

Subject: Why it's good to believe in Jesus

Typical posting:

I want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion.

Response:

Preaching is not appreciated.

Feel free to talk about your religion, but please do not write postings that
are on a "conversion" theme.  Such postings do not belong on alt.atheism and
will be rejected from alt.atheism.moderated (try the newsgroup
talk.religion.misc).

You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
newsgroup in an attempt to convert you; please do unto others as you would
have them do unto you!

Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of lengthy
analogies or parables.  Be aware that atheists have heard of God and know the
basic claims about him; if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell
atheists that God exists and brings salvation, you may as well not post it,
since it tells us nothing we have not been told before.

------------------------------

Subject: Why I know that God exists

Typical posting:

I *know* from personal experience and prayer that God exists.

Response:

Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists, so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist.  That evidence varies from person to person.

Furthermore, without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand, many
people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things -- that they have been
abducted by UFOs, visited by the ghost of Elvis, and so on.

------------------------------

Subject: Einstein and "God does not play dice"

Typical posting:

Albert Einstein believed in God.  Do you think you're cleverer than him?

Response:

Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the universe]". 
This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the
Christian God.  Used this way, it is out of context; it refers to Einstein's
refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory. Furthermore,
Einstein's religious background was Jewish rather than Christian.

A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the following:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings."

Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in an
objective, orderly reality; a reality which would not be subject to random
events and which would not be dependent upon the observer.  He believed that
QM was incomplete, and that a better theory would have no need for
statistical interpretations.  So far no such better theory has been found,
and much evidence suggests that it never will be.

A longer quote from Einstein appears in "Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A
Symposium", published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion
in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.  In
it he says:

  "The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events
   the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side
   of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature.  For him
   neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
   independent cause of natural events.  To be sure, the doctrine of a
   personal God interfering with natural events could never be
   *refuted* [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this
   doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
   knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

   But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives
   of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal.  For a doctrine
   which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark,
   will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm
   to human progress.  In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers
   of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal
   God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past
   placed such vast power in the hands of priests.  In their labors they
   will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable
   of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity
   itself.  This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably
   more worthy task..."

Einstein has also said:

  "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religous convictions,
   a lie which is being systematically repeated.  I do not believe in a
   personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
   If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
   unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
   science can reveal it."

The latter quote is from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen 
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press.  
Also from the same book:

  "I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics
   to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind 
   it."

Of course, the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does 
not in itself imply that Christianity is false.

------------------------------

Subject: Everyone worships something

Typical posting:

Everyone worships something, whether it's money, power or God.

Response:

If that is true, everyone is a polytheist.  Theists care just as much about
those things that atheists care about.  If the atheists' reactions to (for
example) their families amount to worship then so do the theists'.

------------------------------

Subject: Why there must be a causeless cause

Typical posting:

Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member, so
chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause.

Response:

The set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound, but has
no smallest member.

Further, even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause, that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity, and
especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by
any particular religion.

------------------------------

Subject: The universe is so complex it must have been designed

Typical posting:

The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God.  Surely you
don't think all this appeared here just by chance?

Response:

This is known as the Argument From Design.

It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talk.origins for a while.

There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here.
However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
so-called Scientific Creationism. Furthermore, there is much evidence,
observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth.

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of
something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that
surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some 
external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos
deliberately.

But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind
capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must
be immeasurably more unlikely?  The approach used to argue in favour of the
existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist
position.

This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe,
what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling 
improbability.  The only way out is to declare that the creator was not
created and just "is" (or "was").

From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe
just "is" without introducing a creator?  Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book
"A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed
and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.

The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called 
Watchmaker Argument.  One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on
the beach.  Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it
evolved naturally?  Of course one assumes a watchmaker.  Yet like the 
watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the 
universe too must have a creator.

The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above 
those common to all Arguments By Design.  Firstly, a watchmaker creates 
watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have 
created the universe from nothing.  These two sorts of creation are 
clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.

Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in 
the world.  If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear 
reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker.  The argument 
would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a 
different part of creation.

Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that 
the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore 
stands out from the randomness of nature.  Yet in the second part of the 
argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not 
random, but shows elements of order.  The Watchmaker argument is thus 
internally inconsistent.

------------------------------

Subject: Independent evidence that the Bible is true

Typical posting:

The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
evidence.  For example...

Response:

The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
evidence.

Early versions of Josephus's work are thought not to have mentioned Jesus or
James; the extant version discusses John in a non-Christian context.  Many
scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and James in passing, but
that this was expanded by Christian copyists.  Several "reconstructions" of
the original text have been published to this effect.

Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius (about 320
C.E.).  It is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate
falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally acknowledged as 'the
first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.' It is Eusebius who is
generally given the title of authorship for this material.

Aside from the New Testament, the biographical information about Jesus is
more well-documented.  For further information, please consult the Frequently
Asked Questions file for the newsgroup soc.religion.christian.

------------------------------

Subject: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem

Typical posting:

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the
Bible to be both true and complete.

Response:

Godel's First Incompleteness Theorem says that in any consistent formal 
system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary 
arithmetic, one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be 
valid or invalid ('true' or 'false') within that formal system.  (Technically
speaking, the system must also be recursive; that is, there must be a decision
procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal 
system.)

Essentially, all such systems can formulate what is known as a "Liar 
Paradox."  The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is "This 
sentence is false."  Note that if a proposition is undecidable, the formal 
system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable.

The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined, so claims
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to
prove or disprove) the existence of God are worthless in isolation.

One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the
existence of God, simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom. 
This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof, however.

It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms
that both atheists and theists agree with.  It may then be possible to show
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system.  However, that
would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists
within the system.  Furthermore, it certainly wouldn't tell us anything about
whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally.

Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about
the actual existence of God; the formal systems are just abstractions.

Another frequent claim is that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates
that a religious text (the Bible, the Book of Mormon or whatever) cannot be
both consistent and universally applicable. Religious texts are not formal
systems, so such claims are nonsense.

------------------------------

Subject: George Bush on atheism and patriotism

Typical posting:

Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens?

Response:

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I.
Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1988. Sherman
is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of
the press corps.  The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce
federal disaster relief for Illinois.  The discussion turned to the
presidential primary:

 RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"

 GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community.  Faith in
      God is important to me."

 RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
      Americans who are atheists?"

 GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,
      nor should they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under
      God."

 RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
      of state and church?"

 GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state.  I'm just not
      very high on atheists."

UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were
still angry over the remarks.

The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27,
1989.  It can also be found in "Free Enquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue,
Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.

On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane,
cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign.  This concerned a
lawsuit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 (Chicago, Illinois) from forcing his first-grade Atheist son to
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as "one nation under God"
(Bush's phrase).  The following conversation took place:
 
 RS: "American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday.
      Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?"
 
 EM: "It's bullshit."
 
 RS: "What is bullshit?"
 
 EM: "Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit."
 
 RS: "Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
      campaign is on this issue."

 EM: "You're welcome."

After Bush's election, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract
his statement.  On February 21st 1989, C. Boyden Gray, Counsel to the
President, replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by
his original statement, and wrote:

  "As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports
   atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
   supported by the government."

For further information, contact American Atheist Veterans at the American
Atheist Press's Cameron Road address.

------------------------------

Subject: I know where hell is!

Typical posting:

I know where Hell is!  Hell is in Norway!

Response:

There are several towns called "Hell" in various countries around the
world, including Norway and the USA.  Whilst this information is mildly
amusing the first time one hears it, readers of alt.atheism are now 
getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week.

------------------------------

Subject: Biblical contradictions wanted

Typical posting:

Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions?

Response:
 
American Atheist Press publish an atheist's handbook detailing Biblical
contradictions. See the accompanying posting on Atheist Resources for
details.

There is a file containing some Biblical contradictions available from the
archive-server@mantis.co.uk. See the contacts file for more information.

------------------------------

Subject: The USA is a Christian nation

Typical posting:

Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, shouldn't the
United States be considered a Christian nation?

Response:

Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers, it is clear
that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation.  Here are some
quotes; there are many more.

  "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?
   In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
   ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen
   upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been
   the guardians of the liberties of the people.  Rulers who wish to subvert
   the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
   auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it,
   needs them not."
      - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

  "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
   the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
   Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
      - John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

  "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
   maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of
   ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
   always avail themselves for their own purpose."

      - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

  "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or
   requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely
   above it."

      - Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion",
        Nov. 20, 1728

------------------------------

Subject: The USA is not a Christian nation

Typical posting:

Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not in any
sense founded upon the Christian religion?

Response:

No.  The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty
of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):

   Article 11

   As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
   founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of
   enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as
   the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
   against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
   pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
   of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty collections
such as Charles Bevans' "Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America 1776-1949", vol. 11 (pp. 1070-1080).

The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the U.S. Senate on
June 7, 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.  It was
recently discovered that the Arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the
quotation, it lacks Article XI altogether.

The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow, Consul
General at Algiers, a close friend of Thomas Paine -- and an opponent of
Christianity.  It is possible that Barlow made up Article XI, but since there
is no Arabic version of that article to be found, it's hard to say.

In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the
quotation.


End of FAQ Digest
*****************
ÿ

after prepro  From mathew 
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Frequently Asked Questions
Summary Please read this file before posting to altatheism
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Fri 14 May 1993 093955 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930315114603mantiscouk
Lines 733

Archivename atheismfaq
Altatheismarchivename faq
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 11

                    AltAtheism FrequentlyAsked Questions

This file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in
altatheism  Points covered here are ones which are not covered in the
Introduction to Atheism you are advised to read that article as well
before posting

These answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive The purpose of
the periodic FAQ postings is not to stifle debate but to raise its level If
you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isnt
covered by the answer given please feel free to make your point

Overview of contents

   What is the purpose of this newsgroup
   Hitler was an atheist
   The Bible proves it
   Pascals Wager
   What is Occams Razor
   Why its good to believe in Jesus
   Why I know that God exists
   Einstein and God does not play dice
   Everyone worships something
   Why there must be a causeless cause
   The universe is so complex it must have been designed
   Independent evidence that the Bible is true
   Godels Incompleteness Theorem
   George Bush on atheism and patriotism
   I know where hell is
   Biblical contradictions wanted
   The USA is a Christian nation
   The USA is not a Christian nation



Subject What is the purpose of this newsgroup

Typical posting

Why have a newsgroup about atheism  Why do atheists organize in groups  
What is there to discuss

Response

Many things are discussed here including

 Whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting ones
  family
 Prayer in schools
 Discrimination against atheists
 Sunday trading laws
 The Satanic Child Abuse myth
 Whether one should be an overt atheist or stay in the closet
 How religious societies prey sic on new college students
 How to get rid of unwanted proselytizers
 Whether religion is a danger to society andor the individual
 Why people become atheists

Of course inevitably altatheism tends to attract evangelical Christians
looking for someone to convert  Most readers of the newsgroup dont 
want to be preached to although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure 
from tearing apart particularly illconsidered or uninformed postings



Subject Hitler was an atheist

Typical posting

Hitler was an atheist and look at what he did

Response

Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist  As he said himself

   The folkishminded man in particular has the sacred duty each in
   his own denomination of making _people_stop_just_talking_
   superficially_of_Gods_will_and_actually_fulfill_Gods_will_and_
   not_let_Gods_word_be_desecrated_[orig ital]

   For Gods will gave men their form their essence and their
   abilities  Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
   Lords creation the divine will  Therefore let every man be
   active each in his own denomination if you please and let every
   man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
   in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
   religious community and tries to butt into the other

   []

   Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
   of the Almighty Creator _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew_I_am_
   fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord_[orig ital]

           Adolf Hitler from Mein Kampf trans Ralph Mannheim

Of course someone bad believing something does not make that belief
wrong  Its also entirely possible that Hitler was lying when he claimed 
to believe in God  We certainly cant conclude that hes an atheist 
though



Subject The Bible proves it

Typical posting

In the Bible it says that

Response

Most of the readers of altatheism feel that the Bible is of questionable
accuracy as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before  Thus any claimed
truth in it is of questionable legitimacy  This isnt to say that The
Bible has no truth in it simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted

Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to interpretation any claim that a passage means one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate

Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books

It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion



Subject Pascals Wager

Typical posting

If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing 
but if you dont believe in God and turn out to be incorrect you will go to
hell Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist

Response

This argument is known as Pascals Wager  It has several flaws

Firstly it does not indicate which religion to follow  Indeed there are
many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there  This is often
described as the avoiding the wrong hell problem  If a person is a
follower of religion X he may end up in religion Ys version of hell

Secondly the statement that If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect you have lost nothing is not true  Suppose youre believing in
the wrong God  the true God might punish you for your foolishness
Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in
favour of prayer

Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that 
the two possibilities are equally likely  or at least that they are of 
comparable likelihood  If in fact the possibility of there being a God 
is close to zero the argument becomes much less persuasive  So sadly the
argument is only likely to convince those who believe already

Also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief is based on 
evidence with some amount of intuition  It is not a matter of will or 
costbenefit analysis

Formally speaking the argument consists of four statements

  1 One does not know whether God exists
  2 Not believing in God is bad for ones eternal soul if God does
     exist
  3 Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist
  4 Therefore it is in ones interest to believe in God

There are two approaches to the argument  The first is to view 1 as an
assumption and 2 as a consequence of it  One problem with this approach in
the abstract is that it creates information from no information  This is
considered invalid in information theory  Statement 1 indicates one has no
information about God  but statement 2 indicates that beneficial information
can be gained from the absolute lack of information about God  This violates
information entropy  information has been extracted from no information at
no cost

The alternative approach is to claim that 1 and 2 are both assumptions  The
problem with this is that 2 is then basically an assumption which states the
Christian position and only a Christian will agree with that assumption The
argument thus collapses to If you are a Christian it is in your interests
to believe in God  a rather vacuous tautology and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed

The biggest reason why Pascals wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
a wager  He will spurn the latter assuming he actually cares at all
whether people believe in him



Subject What is Occams Razor

Typical posting

People keep talking about Occams Razor  What is it

Response

William of Occam formulated a principle which has become known as Occams 
Razor  In its original form it said Do not multiply entities 
unnecessarily  That is if you can explain something without supposing
the existence of some entity then do so

Nowadays when people refer to Occams Razor they generally express it 
more generally for example as Take the simplest solution

The relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations 
for what we see around us

1 There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which
came into being as a result of natural processes

2 There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and 
there is also a God who created the universe  Clearly this God must be 
of nonzero complexity

Given that both explanations fit the facts Occams Razor might suggest 
that we should take the simpler of the two  solution number one
Unfortunately some argue that there is a third even more simple solution

3 There isnt an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there  
We just imagine that there is

This third option leads us logically towards solipsism which many people 
find unacceptable
 


Subject Why its good to believe in Jesus

Typical posting

I want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion

Response

Preaching is not appreciated

Feel free to talk about your religion but please do not write postings that
are on a conversion theme  Such postings do not belong on altatheism and
will be rejected from altatheismmoderated try the newsgroup
talkreligionmisc

You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
newsgroup in an attempt to convert you please do unto others as you would
have them do unto you

Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of lengthy
analogies or parables  Be aware that atheists have heard of God and know the
basic claims about him if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell
atheists that God exists and brings salvation you may as well not post it
since it tells us nothing we have not been told before



Subject Why I know that God exists

Typical posting

I know from personal experience and prayer that God exists

Response

Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist  That evidence varies from person to person

Furthermore without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand many
people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things  that they have been
abducted by UFOs visited by the ghost of Elvis and so on



Subject Einstein and God does not play dice

Typical posting

Albert Einstein believed in God  Do you think youre cleverer than him

Response

Einstein did once comment that God does not play dice [with the universe] 
This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the
Christian God  Used this way it is out of context it refers to Einsteins
refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory Furthermore
Einsteins religious background was Jewish rather than Christian

A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the following
I believe in Spinozas God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings

Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in an
objective orderly reality a reality which would not be subject to random
events and which would not be dependent upon the observer  He believed that
QM was incomplete and that a better theory would have no need for
statistical interpretations  So far no such better theory has been found
and much evidence suggests that it never will be

A longer quote from Einstein appears in Science Philosophy and Religion A
Symposium published by the Conference on Science Philosophy and Religion
in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life Inc New York 1941  In
it he says

  The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events
   the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side
   of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature  For him
   neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
   independent cause of natural events  To be sure the doctrine of a
   personal God interfering with natural events could never be
   refuted [italics his] in the real sense by science for this
   doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
   knowledge has not yet been able to set foot

   But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives
   of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal  For a doctrine
   which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark
   will of necessity lose its effect on mankind with incalculable harm
   to human progress  In their struggle for the ethical good teachers
   of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal
   God that is give up that source of fear and hope which in the past
   placed such vast power in the hands of priests  In their labors they
   will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable
   of cultivating the Good the True and the Beautiful in humanity
   itself  This is to be sure a more difficult but an incomparably
   more worthy task

Einstein has also said

  It was of course a lie what you read about my religous convictions
   a lie which is being systematically repeated  I do not believe in a
   personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly
   If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
   unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
   science can reveal it

The latter quote is from Albert Einstein The Human Side edited by Helen 
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman and published by Princeton University Press  
Also from the same book

  I do not believe in immortality of the individual and I consider ethics
   to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind 
   it

Of course the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does 
not in itself imply that Christianity is false



Subject Everyone worships something

Typical posting

Everyone worships something whether its money power or God

Response

If that is true everyone is a polytheist  Theists care just as much about
those things that atheists care about  If the atheists reactions to for
example their families amount to worship then so do the theists



Subject Why there must be a causeless cause

Typical posting

Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member so
chains of causes must all have a first element a causeless cause

Response

The set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound but has
no smallest member

Further even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity and
especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by
any particular religion



Subject The universe is so complex it must have been designed

Typical posting

The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God  Surely you
dont think all this appeared here just by chance

Response

This is known as the Argument From Design

It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talkorigins for a while

There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here
However the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
socalled Scientific Creationism Furthermore there is much evidence
observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth

The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of
something as incredibly intricate as say a human is so improbable that
surely it cant have come about by chance that surely there must be some 
external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos
deliberately

But if human intelligence is so improbable surely the existence of a mind
capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must
be immeasurably more unlikely  The approach used to argue in favour of the
existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist
position

This leads us to the familiar theme of If a creator created the universe
what created the creator but with the addition of spiralling 
improbability  The only way out is to declare that the creator was not
created and just is or was

From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe
just is without introducing a creator  Indeed Stephen Hawking in his book
A Brief History of Time explains his theory that the universe is closed
and finite in extent with no beginning or end

The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy in the socalled 
Watchmaker Argument  One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on
the beach  Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker or that it
evolved naturally  Of course one assumes a watchmaker  Yet like the 
watch the universe is intricate and complex so the argument goes the 
universe too must have a creator

The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above 
those common to all Arguments By Design  Firstly a watchmaker creates 
watches from preexisting materials whereas God is claimed to have 
created the universe from nothing  These two sorts of creation are 
clearly fundamentally different and the analogy is therefore rather weak

Secondly a watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things in 
the world  If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear 
reactor we wouldnt assume it was created by the watchmaker  The argument 
would therefore suggest a multitude of creators each responsible for a 
different part of creation

Finally in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that 
the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered and therefore 
stands out from the randomness of nature  Yet in the second part of the 
argument we start from the position that the universe is obviously not 
random but shows elements of order  The Watchmaker argument is thus 
internally inconsistent



Subject Independent evidence that the Bible is true

Typical posting

The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
evidence  For example

Response

The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
evidence

Early versions of Josephuss work are thought not to have mentioned Jesus or
James the extant version discusses John in a nonChristian context  Many
scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and James in passing but
that this was expanded by Christian copyists  Several reconstructions of
the original text have been published to this effect

Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius about 320
CE  It is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate
falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally acknowledged as the
first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity It is Eusebius who is
generally given the title of authorship for this material

Aside from the New Testament the biographical information about Jesus is
more welldocumented  For further information please consult the Frequently
Asked Questions file for the newsgroup socreligionchristian



Subject Godels Incompleteness Theorem

Typical posting

Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the
Bible to be both true and complete

Response

Godels First Incompleteness Theorem says that in any consistent formal 
system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary 
arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be 
valid or invalid true or false within that formal system  Technically
speaking the system must also be recursive that is there must be a decision
procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal 
system

Essentially all such systems can formulate what is known as a Liar 
Paradox  The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is This 
sentence is false  Note that if a proposition is undecidable the formal 
system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable

The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined so claims
that Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to
prove or disprove the existence of God are worthless in isolation

One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the
existence of God simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom 
This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof however

It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms
that both atheists and theists agree with  It may then be possible to show
that Godels Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system  However that
would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists
within the system  Furthermore it certainly wouldnt tell us anything about
whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally

Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about
the actual existence of God the formal systems are just abstractions

Another frequent claim is that Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates
that a religious text the Bible the Book of Mormon or whatever cannot be
both consistent and universally applicable Religious texts are not formal
systems so such claims are nonsense



Subject George Bush on atheism and patriotism

Typical posting

Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens

Response

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I
Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush on August 27 1988 Sherman
is a fully accredited reporter and was present by invitation as a member of
the press corps  The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce
federal disaster relief for Illinois  The discussion turned to the
presidential primary

 RS What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists

 GB I guess Im pretty weak in the atheist community  Faith in
      God is important to me

 RS Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
      Americans who are atheists

 GB No I dont know that atheists should be considered as citizens
      nor should they be considered patriots  This is one nation under
      God

 RS Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
      of state and church

 GB Yes I support the separation of church and state  Im just not
      very high on atheists

UPI reported on May 8 1989 that various atheist organizations were
still angry over the remarks

The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27
1989  It can also be found in Free Enquiry magazine Fall 1988 issue
Volume 8 Number 4 page 16

On October 29 1988 Mr Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane
cochairman of the BushQuayle 88 Illinois campaign  This concerned a
lawsuit Mr Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 Chicago Illinois from forcing his firstgrade Atheist son to
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as one nation under God
Bushs phrase  The following conversation took place
 
 RS American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday
      Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing
 
 EM Its bullshit
 
 RS What is bullshit
 
 EM Everything that American Atheists does Rob is bullshit
 
 RS Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
      campaign is on this issue

 EM Youre welcome

After Bushs election American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract
his statement  On February 21st 1989 C Boyden Gray Counsel to the
President replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by
his original statement and wrote

  As you are aware the President is a religious man who neither supports
   atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
   supported by the government

For further information contact American Atheist Veterans at the American
Atheist Presss Cameron Road address



Subject I know where hell is

Typical posting

I know where Hell is  Hell is in Norway

Response

There are several towns called Hell in various countries around the
world including Norway and the USA  Whilst this information is mildly
amusing the first time one hears it readers of altatheism are now 
getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week



Subject Biblical contradictions wanted

Typical posting

Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions

Response
 
American Atheist Press publish an atheists handbook detailing Biblical
contradictions See the accompanying posting on Atheist Resources for
details

There is a file containing some Biblical contradictions available from the
archiveservermantiscouk See the contacts file for more information



Subject The USA is a Christian nation

Typical posting

Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers shouldnt the
United States be considered a Christian nation

Response

Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers it is clear
that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation  Here are some
quotes there are many more

  What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on society
   In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
   ruins of the civil authority on many instances they have been seen
   upholding the thrones of political tyranny in no instance have they been
   the guardians of the liberties of the people  Rulers who wish to subvert
   the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
   auxiliaries A just government instituted to secure and perpetuate it
   needs them not
       James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance 1785

  I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
   the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preservedthe Cross
   Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced
       John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

  History I believe furnishes no example of a priestridden people
   maintaining a free civil government  This marks the lowest grade of
   ignorance of which their political as well as religious leaders will
   always avail themselves for their own purpose

       Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt 1813

  I cannot conceive otherwise than that He the Infinite Father expects or
   requires no worship or praise from us but that He is even infinitely
   above it

       Benjamin Franklin from Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion
        Nov 20 1728



Subject The USA is not a Christian nation

Typical posting

Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not in any
sense founded upon the Christian religion

Response

No  The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty
of Tripoli 8 Stat 154 Treaty Series 358

   Article 11

   As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
   founded on the Christian Religion  as it has in itself no character of
   enmity against the laws religion or tranquility of Musselmen  and as
   the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
   against any Mehomitan nation it is declared by the parties that no
   pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
   of the harmony existing between the two countries

The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty collections
such as Charles Bevans Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America 17761949 vol 11 pp 10701080

The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the US Senate on
June 7 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June 10 1797  It was
recently discovered that the Arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the
quotation it lacks Article XI altogether

The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow Consul
General at Algiers a close friend of Thomas Paine  and an opponent of
Christianity  It is possible that Barlow made up Article XI but since there
is no Arabic version of that article to be found its hard to say

In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the
quotation


End of FAQ Digest



preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 20

In article <1ql8mdINN674@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty.  And, the
>Constitution need not define each of the words within.  Anyone who doesn't
>know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did).
>

  Or, with no dictionary available, they could gain first hand
  knowledge by suffering through one of your posts.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Cruel was Re  keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes

But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty  And the
Constitution need not define each of the words within  Anyone who doesnt
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did


  Or with no dictionary available they could gain first hand
  knowledge by suffering through one of your posts


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


preprocess doc  From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 14

In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

>I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>community in the Uk and elsewhere.

>jon.

Grow up, childish propagandist.




Gregg

after prepro  From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 14

In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes

I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere

jon

Grow up childish propagandist




Gregg

preprocess doc  From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 42

In <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) 
writes:

>In article <pww-140493214334@spac-at1-59.rice.edu> pww@spacsun.rice.edu 
(Peter Walker) writes:
>#In article <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank
>#O'Dwyer) wrote:
>#> Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
>#
>#But where do those objective values come from? How can we measure them?
>#What mediated thair interaction with the real world, a moralon? Or a scalar
>#valuino field?

>Science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round, 
>as you would wish it.  If there is no such thing as objective value, then 
>science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head.
>Simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said
>to be more useful than a set of tarot cards.  You like those conclusions?
>I don't.

>#And how do we know they exist in the first place?

>One assumes objective reality, one doesn't know it.  

>-- 
>Frank O'Dwyer                                  'I'm not hatching That'
>odwyer@sse.ie                                  from "Hens",  by Evelyn Conlon

How do we measure truth, beauty, goodness, love, friendship, trust, honesty, 
etc.?  If things have no basis in objective fact then aren't we limited in what
we know to be true?  Can't we say that we can examples or instances of reason,
but cannot measure reason, or is that semantics?

MAC
--
****************************************************************
                                                    Michael A. Cobb
 "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs."                 Champaign-Urbana
          -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.

after prepro  From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 42

In 1qjahhmrshorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer 
writes

In article  pwwspacsunriceedu 
Peter Walker writes
In article 1qie61fkthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank
ODwyer wrote
 Objective morality is morality built from objective values

But where do those objective values come from How can we measure them
What mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon Or a scalar
valuino field

Science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round 
as you would wish it  If there is no such thing as objective value then 
science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head
Simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said
to be more useful than a set of tarot cards  You like those conclusions
I dont

And how do we know they exist in the first place

One assumes objective reality one doesnt know it  

 
Frank ODwyer                                  Im not hatching That
odwyersseie                                  from Hens  by Evelyn Conlon

How do we measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty 
etc  If things have no basis in objective fact then arent we limited in what
we know to be true  Cant we say that we can examples or instances of reason
but cannot measure reason or is that semantics

MAC


                                                    Michael A Cobb
 and I wont raise taxes on the middle     University of Illinois
    class to pay for my programs                 ChampaignUrbana
          Bill Clinton 3rd Debate             cobbalexialisuiucedu
                                              
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net

In article <19930419.062802.166@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
|In <1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
|>The Work is privately funded,  the DATA belongs to SBV.  I don't see
|>either george or Fred,  scoriating IBM research division for
|>not releasing data.
|   We publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look.


Never said you didn't publish, merely that there is data you don't
publish,  and that no-one scoriates you for those cases.  

IBM research  publishes plenty, it's why you ended up  with 2 Nobel
prizes in the last 10 years,  but that some projects are deemed
company confidential.  ATT Bell Labs,  keeps lots of stuff private,
Like Karamankars algorithm.  Private moeny is entitled to do what
it pleases, within the bounds of Law,  and For all the keepers of the
temple of SCience,  should please shove their pointy little heads
up their Conically shaped Posterior Orifices.   

pat

	who just read the SA article on Karl Fehrabend(sp???)

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Biosphere II
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 22
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet

In article 19930419062802166almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
In 1q77kuav6accessdigexnet Pat writes
The Work is privately funded  the DATA belongs to SBV  I dont see
either george or Fred  scoriating IBM research division for
not releasing data
   We publish plenty kiddoyou just have to look


Never said you didnt publish merely that there is data you dont
publish  and that noone scoriates you for those cases  

IBM research  publishes plenty its why you ended up  with 2 Nobel
prizes in the last 10 years  but that some projects are deemed
company confidential  ATT Bell Labs  keeps lots of stuff private
Like Karamankars algorithm  Private moeny is entitled to do what
it pleases within the bounds of Law  and For all the keepers of the
temple of SCience  should please shove their pointy little heads
up their Conically shaped Posterior Orifices   

pat

	who just read the SA article on Karl Fehrabendsp

preprocess doc  From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Blue Ribbon Panel Members Named
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 71

The following press release was distributed April 1 by
NASA Headquarters.

Space Station Redesign Advisory Members Named

Along with Dr. Charles M. Vest, recently named by Vice President
Albert Gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the
Space Station, NASA has announced the names of representatives
from government and industry and academic experts from across the
country to participate in an independent review of the redesign
options being developed by NASA.

"I am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this
important review panel. America's future in science and
technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost
attention and care," said Vest. "We have assembled a diverse
panel of experts that, I believe, will bring the appropriate
measures of insight, integrity and objectivity to this critical
task."

The advisory committee is charged with independently assessing
various redesign options of the space station presented by NASA's
redesign team, and proposing recommendations to improve
efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program. Space
station international partners also are being asked to 
participate and will be named at a later date. The advisory
committee will submit its recommendations in June.

Advisory committee members named today include:

Dr. Charles Vest              Dr. Bobby Alford
President, MIT                Executive VP & Dean of Medicine
                              Baylor College of Medicine

Mr. Jay Chabrow               Dr. Paul Chu
President, JMR Associates     Director, Texas Center for
                              Superconductivity
                              University of Houston

Dr. Ed Crawley                Dr. John Fabian
Prof of Aero & Astro          President & CEO
MIT                           ANSER

Maj. Gen. James Fain          Dr. Edward Fort
Deputy Chief of Staff for     Chancellor
Requirements; Headquarters    North Carolina AT&T
USAF Materials Command        State University

Dr. Mary Good                 Mr. Frederick Hauck
Senior VP of Technology       President, International Technical
Allied Signal, Inc.           Underwriters

Dr. Lou Lanzerotti            Mr. William Lilly
Chair, Space Sciences         National Academy of Public
Board, National Research      Administration
Council

Mr. Duane McRuer              Dr. Brad Parkinson
President Systems Technology  Prof of Astro & Aero
                              Stanford University

Dr. Robert Seamans            Dr. Lee Silver
Former NASA Deputy Admin.     W.M. Keck Foundation Professor
                              for Resource Geology
                              California Institute of
                              Technology

Dr. Albert "Bud" Wheelon
Retired CEO
Hughes Aircraft


after prepro  From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Blue Ribbon Panel Members Named
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center  Cleveland Ohio
Lines 71

The following press release was distributed April 1 by
NASA Headquarters

Space Station Redesign Advisory Members Named

Along with Dr Charles M Vest recently named by Vice President
Albert Gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the
Space Station NASA has announced the names of representatives
from government and industry and academic experts from across the
country to participate in an independent review of the redesign
options being developed by NASA

I am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this
important review panel Americas future in science and
technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost
attention and care said Vest We have assembled a diverse
panel of experts that I believe will bring the appropriate
measures of insight integrity and objectivity to this critical
task

The advisory committee is charged with independently assessing
various redesign options of the space station presented by NASAs
redesign team and proposing recommendations to improve
efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program Space
station international partners also are being asked to 
participate and will be named at a later date The advisory
committee will submit its recommendations in June

Advisory committee members named today include

Dr Charles Vest              Dr Bobby Alford
President MIT                Executive VP  Dean of Medicine
                              Baylor College of Medicine

Mr Jay Chabrow               Dr Paul Chu
President JMR Associates     Director Texas Center for
                              Superconductivity
                              University of Houston

Dr Ed Crawley                Dr John Fabian
Prof of Aero  Astro          President  CEO
MIT                           ANSER

Maj Gen James Fain          Dr Edward Fort
Deputy Chief of Staff for     Chancellor
Requirements Headquarters    North Carolina ATT
USAF Materials Command        State University

Dr Mary Good                 Mr Frederick Hauck
Senior VP of Technology       President International Technical
Allied Signal Inc           Underwriters

Dr Lou Lanzerotti            Mr William Lilly
Chair Space Sciences         National Academy of Public
Board National Research      Administration
Council

Mr Duane McRuer              Dr Brad Parkinson
President Systems Technology  Prof of Astro  Aero
                              Stanford University

Dr Robert Seamans            Dr Lee Silver
Former NASA Deputy Admin     WM Keck Foundation Professor
                              for Resource Geology
                              California Institute of
                              Technology

Dr Albert Bud Wheelon
Retired CEO
Hughes Aircraft


preprocess doc  Subject: Re:  PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs
Lines: 27

In article <1993Apr22.213815.12288@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
>
>> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
>
>If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, I'd swear that
>McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly.  I also find the
>choice of newsgroups 'interesting'.  Perhaps someone should tell this
>guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'?
>
>It's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
>are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country.  Small
>wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we
>have the problems that we do.
>
>[In case you haven't gotten it yet, David, I don't think this was
>quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.]

Was that post for real? I thought it was a late April Fool joke. Some of it
seemed a bit over the top even by McElwaine/Abian/etc standards :-)

--
... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ............ alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ...
      "And crawling on the planet's face
      Some insects called the human race
      Lost in time and lost in space"      (RHPS)


after prepro  Subject Re  PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
From alienacheronamigansgennz Ross Smith
Distribution world
Organization Muppet Labs
Lines 27

In article 1993Apr2221381512288mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
In 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes

 ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY

If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words Id swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly  I also find the
choice of newsgroups interesting  Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that sciastro doesnt stand for astrology

Its truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country  Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks were all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do

[In case you havent gotten it yet David I dont think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups]

Was that post for real I thought it was a late April Fool joke Some of it
seemed a bit over the top even by McElwaineAbianetc standards 


 Ross Smith Wanganui NZ  alienacheronamigansgennz 
      And crawling on the planets face
      Some insects called the human race
      Lost in time and lost in space      RHPS


preprocess doc  From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1psfan$pj0@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes...
>In article <6APR199314571378@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
>|been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973.  Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
>|may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
>|make some closeup observations.  The orbital trajectory for Comet
>|Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
>a
> 
>What about positional uncertainties in S-L 1993e?   

If Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e is in Jovian orbit, and if the comet
is still hanging around when Galileo arrives, then I'm sure it will
be added to the list of targets.  We'll have by then over two years
of Earth-based observations to help narrow down the positions of the
pieces of the comet. It probably won't be too much different than
what was done with Gaspra.

>But when they were
>imaging toutatis?

Galileo did not image Toutatis.  That came from Earth-based radar.

     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation 
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | and causes more aggravation
                                                  | instead.

after prepro  From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141    

In article 1psfanpj0accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 6APR199314571378kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973  Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations  The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
a
 
What about positional uncertainties in SL 1993e   

If Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e is in Jovian orbit and if the comet
is still hanging around when Galileo arrives then Im sure it will
be added to the list of targets  Well have by then over two years
of Earthbased observations to help narrow down the positions of the
pieces of the comet It probably wont be too much different than
what was done with Gaspra

But when they were
imaging toutatis

Galileo did not image Toutatis  That came from Earthbased radar

     ___    _____     ___
    _   ____ \  _      Ron Baalke          baalkekelvinjplnasagov
         __ \         Jet Propulsion Lab 
 ___    __     __   MS 5253684 Telos  Being cynical never helps 
___     ___     __  Pasadena CA 91109  to correct the situation 
_____  _       _____                      and causes more aggravation
                                                   instead

preprocess doc  From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 33

In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>
>
>>  Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance.  Ignorance of the
>>  existence of any god.  Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
>>  because of their pride" mistake.
>
>How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
>be wrong 
>to fall into the trap that you mentioned? 
>

  If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake.  That
  he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
  undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.

  As for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that I don't
  believe in god because I do not wish to.  Unless you can know my
  motivations better than I do myself, you should believe me when I
  say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
  him.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 

They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


after prepro  From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 33

In article  cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes


  Actually my atheism is based on ignorance  Ignorance of the
  existence of any god  Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
  because of their pride mistake

How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong 
to fall into the trap that you mentioned 


  If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake  That
  he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
  undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes

  As for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that I dont
  believe in god because I do not wish to  Unless you can know my
  motivations better than I do myself you should believe me when I
  say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
  him


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 

Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM 

They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


preprocess doc  Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 27

In article <1993Apr6.151843.15240@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say "Muslim".  In
>general, anyone who calls themselves a "Muslim" and does not do or 
>outwardly profess
>something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
>is considered to be a Muslim.  Thus, one who might do things contrary to
>Islam (through ignorance, for example) does not suddenly _not_ become a
>Muslim.  If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
>principles, though, then one does leave Islam.

	You and Mr. bobby really need to sit down and decide what
exactly Islam  *is* before posting here.

	According to 'Zlumber, one is NOT a muslim when one is doing evil. 
[ A muslin can do no evil ] According to him, one who does evil is suffering 
from "temporary athiesm."

	Now, would the members who claim to be "Muslims" get their stories 
straight????

--


       "Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.  
        They do what god tells them to do. "

        S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu) 

after prepro  Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 27

In article 1993Apr615184315240monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say Muslim  In
general anyone who calls themselves a Muslim and does not do or 
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim  Thus one who might do things contrary to
Islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim  If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles though then one does leave Islam

	You and Mr bobby really need to sit down and decide what
exactly Islam  is before posting here

	According to Zlumber one is NOT a muslim when one is doing evil 
[ A muslin can do no evil ] According to him one who does evil is suffering 
from temporary athiesm

	Now would the members who claim to be Muslims get their stories 
straight




       Satan and the Angels do not have freewill  
        They do what god tells them to do 

        SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu 

preprocess doc  From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu

In article <1993Apr6.021635.20958@wam.umd.edu> west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:

>Fine... THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GOD(tm)  (disputed or not, it is)
>
>Dispute that.  It won't matter.  Prove me wrong.

	The Illiad contains more than one word. Ergo: it can not be
the Word of God. 

	But, if you will humbly agree that it is the WORDS of God, I 
will conceed.

	:-D


---

        "One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say "Mom", because of the love of their mom.  It makes for more 
        virile men."

        Bobby Mozumder  ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
        April 4, 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world. 


after prepro  From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu

In article 1993Apr602163520958wamumdedu westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes

Fine THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GODtm  disputed or not it is

Dispute that  It wont matter  Prove me wrong

	The Illiad contains more than one word Ergo it can not be
the Word of God 

	But if you will humbly agree that it is the WORDS of God I 
will conceed

	D




        One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that 
        say Mom because of the love of their mom  It makes for more 
        virile men

        Bobby Mozumder   snm6394ultbiscritedu 
        April 4 1993

        The one TRUE Muslim left in the world 


preprocess doc  From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Netcom. San Jose, California
Lines: 91

frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes ...
> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>#frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes ...
>#>Plus questions for you:  why do subjectivists/relativists/nihilists get so 
>#>het up about the idea that relativism is *better* than objectivism? 
>#
>#To the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the
>#truth than is objectivism, it provides more power and ability to
>#control events.
>
>I think you lose the right to talk about THE truth once you say values are
>relative.   Accuracy is a value judgement, too.  It so happens I agree with 
>the substance of what you say below, but it's clear to me that at least 
>*some* values are objective.  Truth is better than falsehood, peace is
>better than war, education is better than ignorance.  We know these things,
>if we know anything.

While I'll agree that these are generally held to be "good things", I
question whether they come very close to being objective values.
Especially considering that at one time or another each has been
viewed as being undesirable.  I doubt you could even come up with
anything that could be said to be universally "good" or "bad".

And when I referred to "the truth" I was using the term
hypothetically, realizing full well that there may not even be such a
thing.

>#Assuming, for the moment, that morals _are_ relative, then two
>#relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute
>#truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that
>#produces the desired results.
>
>No they cannot, because they acknowledge up front that THE desired
>results do not exist.  That, after all, is the meaning of compromise.
>
>Plus some problems: If the relativists have no values in common, compromise 
>is impossible - what happens then?    Who, if anyone, is right?  What happens 
>if one relativist has a value "Never compromise?".  A value "plant bombs in 
>crowded shopping areas"?  After all, if morals are relative, these values 
>cannot *meaningfully* be said to be incorrect.

True enough.  But they cannot be said to be anything more than
personal morals.  One thing notably lacking in most extremists is any
sense of _personal_ accountability - the justification for any
socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some "higher authority"
(aka, absolute moral truth).

>#Assuming that there is an absolute morality, two disagreeing 
>#objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right; there
>#is no room for compromise.  Once you beleive in absolute morals,
>#you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees
>#with you is amoral.
>
>Untrue.  One can accept that one does not know the whole truth.  Part
>of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is
>better than rigidity, compromise is better than believing you have a lock
>on morals, etc.  In the same way, I can believe in an objective reality
>without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse, or who shot
>JFK.

An objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth?
Interesting notion.   :-)

Certainly one can have as one's morals a belief that compromise is
good.  But to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most
people do very successfully.  I suppose one could hold compromise as
being an absolute moral, but then what happens when someone else
insists on no compromise?  How do you compromise on compromising?

>#Given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention,
>#I'd say that compromise seems to be "better".
>
>And I would agree.   But it's bloody to pointless to speak of it if it's
>merely a matter of taste.  Is your liking for peace any better founded
>than someone else's liking for ice-cream?  I'm looking for a way to say
>"yes" to that question, and relativism isn't it.

Almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing
over another, be it morals or consequences, people only consider those
aspects which justify a desired action or belief.  In justifying a
commitement to peace I might argue that it lets people live long &
healthy and peaceful lives.  While that much may well be true, it is
incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war - killing off the most
agressive member of society, trimming down the population, stimulating
production.  The equation is always more complex than presented.
To characterize relative morals as merely following one's own
conscience / desires is to unduly simplify it.

-- 
Ray Fischer                   "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth
ray@netcom.com                 than lies."  -- Friedrich Nietzsche

after prepro  From raynetcomcom Ray Fischer
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Netcom San Jose California
Lines 91

frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes 
 raynetcomcom Ray Fischer writes
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes 
Plus questions for you  why do subjectivistsrelativistsnihilists get so 
het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism 

To the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the
truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to
control events

I think you lose the right to talk about THE truth once you say values are
relative   Accuracy is a value judgement too  It so happens I agree with 
the substance of what you say below but its clear to me that at least 
some values are objective  Truth is better than falsehood peace is
better than war education is better than ignorance  We know these things
if we know anything

While Ill agree that these are generally held to be good things I
question whether they come very close to being objective values
Especially considering that at one time or another each has been
viewed as being undesirable  I doubt you could even come up with
anything that could be said to be universally good or bad

And when I referred to the truth I was using the term
hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even be such a
thing

Assuming for the moment that morals _are_ relative then two
relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute
truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that
produces the desired results

No they cannot because they acknowledge up front that THE desired
results do not exist  That after all is the meaning of compromise

Plus some problems If the relativists have no values in common compromise 
is impossible  what happens then    Who if anyone is right  What happens 
if one relativist has a value Never compromise  A value plant bombs in 
crowded shopping areas  After all if morals are relative these values 
cannot meaningfully be said to be incorrect

True enough  But they cannot be said to be anything more than
personal morals  One thing notably lacking in most extremists is any
sense of _personal_ accountability  the justification for any
socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some higher authority
aka absolute moral truth

Assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing 
objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there
is no room for compromise  Once you beleive in absolute morals
you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees
with you is amoral

Untrue  One can accept that one does not know the whole truth  Part
of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is
better than rigidity compromise is better than believing you have a lock
on morals etc  In the same way I can believe in an objective reality
without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse or who shot
JFK

An objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth
Interesting notion   

Certainly one can have as ones morals a belief that compromise is
good  But to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most
people do very successfully  I suppose one could hold compromise as
being an absolute moral but then what happens when someone else
insists on no compromise  How do you compromise on compromising

Given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention
Id say that compromise seems to be better

And I would agree   But its bloody to pointless to speak of it if its
merely a matter of taste  Is your liking for peace any better founded
than someone elses liking for icecream  Im looking for a way to say
yes to that question and relativism isnt it

Almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing
over another be it morals or consequences people only consider those
aspects which justify a desired action or belief  In justifying a
commitement to peace I might argue that it lets people live long 
healthy and peaceful lives  While that much may well be true it is
incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war  killing off the most
agressive member of society trimming down the population stimulating
production  The equation is always more complex than presented
To characterize relative morals as merely following ones own
conscience  desires is to unduly simplify it

 
Ray Fischer                   Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth
raynetcomcom                 than lies   Friedrich Nietzsche

preprocess doc  From: John Lussmyer <dragon@angus.mi.org>
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Mystery Spot BBS
Reply-To: dragon@angus.mi.org
Lines: 12

henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

> The first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical
> landing.  There will be no payload.  DC-X will never carry any kind

Exactly when will the hover test be done, and will any of the TV
networks carry it.  I really want to see that...

--
John Lussmyer (dragon@angus.mi.org)
Mystery Spot BBS, Royal Oak, MI --------------------------------------------?--


after prepro  From John Lussmyer 
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Mystery Spot BBS
ReplyTo dragonangusmiorg
Lines 12

henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes

 The first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical
 landing  There will be no payload  DCX will never carry any kind

Exactly when will the hover test be done and will any of the TV
networks carry it  I really want to see that


John Lussmyer dragonangusmiorg
Mystery Spot BBS Royal Oak MI 


preprocess doc  From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: euclid.jpl.nasa.gov

In article <1993Apr18.014305.28536@sfu.ca>, Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
> In article <C5nGxq.663@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer,
> henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
> >The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
> >When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
> >the film continuously repeating.
> 
> Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
> month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time.
> Once again netnews has enriched my life.

Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasn't there.  Not that I would have known to look for it, of course,
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly.

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)

after prepro  From pjseuclidJPLNASAGOV Peter J Scott
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum  how
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory NASACaltech
Lines 19
Distribution world
ReplyTo pjseuclidjplnasagov
NNTPPostingHost euclidjplnasagov

In article 1993Apr1801430528536sfuca Leigh Palmer  writes
 In article  Henry Spencer
 henryzootorontoedu writes
 The National Air  Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
 When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
 the film continuously repeating
 
 Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
 month with my wife who was also working at General Atomic at the time
 Once again netnews has enriched my life

Sorry to put a damper on your plans but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasnt there  Not that I would have known to look for it of course
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly

 
This is news  This is your           Peter Scott NASAJPLCaltech
brain on news  Any questions        pjseuclidjplnasagov

preprocess doc  From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Lines: 73

Benedikt Rosenau writes:

>The argument goes as follows: Q-oid quotes appear in John, but not in
>the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke. However, they are
>considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such, and
>not an entirely different source.

Assuming you are presenting it accurately, I don't see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion.  The material in John (I'm not sure
exactly what is referred to here, but I'll take for granted the similarity
to the Matt./Luke "Q" material) IS different; hence, one could have almost
any relationship between the two, right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus' mouth.

>We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
>explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
>their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
>that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).

The version of the "usual theory" I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and "Q".  One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew, we wouldn't have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies,
for one thing.

>As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
>for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.

This is the part that is particularly new to me.  If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference, I'd be grateful.

>>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand.  It was (I think) in the late
>>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.

>When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
>putting John after the rest of the three?

Because it closes up the gap between (supposed) writing and the existing
copy quit a bit.  The further away from the original, the more copies can be
written, and therefore survival becomes more probable.

>>And I don't think a "one step removed" source is that bad.  If Luke and Mark
>>and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples, then I really
>>cannot believe in the sort of "big transformation from Jesus to gospel" that
>>some people posit.  In news reports, one generally gets no better
>>information than this.

>>And if John IS a diciple, then there's nothing more to be said.

>That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
>together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.

I'm not really impressed with the "theology" argument.  But I'm really
pointing this out as an "if".  And as I pointed out earlier, one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter; I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter.


>One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
>to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.

The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants, which is
not so bad.

>In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
>and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.

But the statement of divinity is not in that section, and in any case, it's
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark.
-- 
C. Wingate        + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
                  +    but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu +  Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe       +    the marv'lous peace of God."

after prepro  From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Lines 73

Benedikt Rosenau writes

The argument goes as follows Qoid quotes appear in John but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke However they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such and
not an entirely different source

Assuming you are presenting it accurately I dont see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion  The material in John Im not sure
exactly what is referred to here but Ill take for granted the similarity
to the MattLuke Q material IS different hence one could have almost
any relationship between the two right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus mouth

We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark

The version of the usual theory I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and Q  One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew we wouldnt have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies
for one thing

As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly

This is the part that is particularly new to me  If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference Id be grateful

Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand  It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200

When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three

Because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing
copy quit a bit  The further away from the original the more copies can be
written and therefore survival becomes more probable

And I dont think a one step removed source is that bad  If Luke and Mark
and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then I really
cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from Jesus to gospel that
some people posit  In news reports one generally gets no better
information than this

And if John IS a diciple then theres nothing more to be said

That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument

Im not really impressed with the theology argument  But Im really
pointing this out as an if  And as I pointed out earlier one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter


One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies

The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is
not so bad

In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak

But the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case its
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark
 
C Wingate         The peace of God it is no peace
                      but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu   Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe           the marvlous peace of God

preprocess doc  From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 76
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu

kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>>>How many contridictions do you want to see?
>>Good question. If I claim something is a general trend, then to disprove this,
>>I guess you'd have to show that it was not a general trend.
>No, if you're going to claim something, then it is up to you to prove it.
>Think "Cold Fusion".

Well, I've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you
(or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding
mating practices, etc.  I don't think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality.  And, again, the mating
practices need to be reexamined...

>>Try to find "immoral" non-mating-related activities.
>So you're excluding mating-related-activities from your "natural morality"?

No, but mating practices are a special case.  I'll have to think about it
some more.

>>Yes, I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
>>goal of species propogation in mind.  But, I am not equating the two
>>as you so think.  That is, an objective system isn't necessarily the
>>natural one.
>Are you or are you not the man who wrote:
>"A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
> follow".

Indeed.  But, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems
are not the natural one.  So, the terms can not be equated.  The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones.

>Now, since homosexuality has been observed in most animals (including
>birds and dolphins), are you going to claim that "most animals" have
>the capacity of being immoral?

I don't claim that homosexuality is immoral.  It isn't harmful, although
it isn't helpful either (to the mating process).  And, when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?"

>>>>Because we can't determine to what end we should be "moral."
>Are you claiming to be a group?  "We" usually implies more than one entity.

This is standard jargon.  Read any textbook.  The "we" forms are used
throughout.

>>Well, I'm saying that these goals are not inherent.  That is why they must
>>be postulates, because there is not really a way to determine them
>>otherwise (although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
>>goal--but they are somewhat removed).
>Postulate: To assume; posit.

That's right.  The goals themselves aren't inherent.

>I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
>Earth, that the moon is actually made of green cheese, and the stars are
>the portions of Angels that intrudes into three-dimensional reality.

You could, but such would contradict observations.

>I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
>of one side of a triangle, the length of a second side of the triangle, and
>the degree of angle connecting them, I can determine the length of the
>third side.

But a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be
true.  I don't think your postulate would be valid.

>Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to.  In order to assume
>something about your system, you have to be able to show that your postulates
>work.

Yes, and I think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work.  You think
they don't?  Or are they not good goals?

keith

after prepro  From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re How many contridictions do you want to see
Good question If I claim something is a general trend then to disprove this
I guess youd have to show that it was not a general trend
No if youre going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it
Think Cold Fusion

Well Ive provided examples to show that the trend was general and you
or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding
mating practices etc  I dont think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality  And again the mating
practices need to be reexamined

Try to find immoral nonmatingrelated activities
So youre excluding matingrelatedactivities from your natural morality

No but mating practices are a special case  Ill have to think about it
some more

Yes I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
goal of species propogation in mind  But I am not equating the two
as you so think  That is an objective system isnt necessarily the
natural one
Are you or are you not the man who wrote
A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
 follow

Indeed  But while the natural system is objective all objective systems
are not the natural one  So the terms can not be equated  The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones

Now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including
birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have
the capacity of being immoral

I dont claim that homosexuality is immoral  It isnt harmful although
it isnt helpful either to the mating process  And when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom dont you mean bisexuality

Because we cant determine to what end we should be moral
Are you claiming to be a group  We usually implies more than one entity

This is standard jargon  Read any textbook  The we forms are used
throughout

Well Im saying that these goals are not inherent  That is why they must
be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them
otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
goalbut they are somewhat removed
Postulate To assume posit

Thats right  The goals themselves arent inherent

I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
Earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are
the portions of Angels that intrudes into threedimensional reality

You could but such would contradict observations

I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and
the degree of angle connecting them I can determine the length of the
third side

But a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be
true  I dont think your postulate would be valid

Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to  In order to assume
something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates
work

Yes and I think the goals of survival and happiness do work  You think
they dont  Or are they not good goals

keith

preprocess doc  From: cbrasted@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Charles Brasted)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: The University of Adelaide
Lines: 123
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: adelphi.itd.adelaide.edu.au
Keywords: Dan Bissell

bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:

>	First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.  It 
>makes sense to be one.  Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar, 
>lunatic, or the real thing?  (I might be a little off on the title, but he 
>writes the book.  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity, 
>in the process he became a Christian himself.

I assume you are posting to encourage comments - how much history has
Tony Campello read?  Not much it seems. 

>	The arguements he uses I am summing up.  The book is about whether 
>Jesus was God or not.  I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a 
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
>others have to say.  

It is good to hear that there are a few reasonable Christians about.
If only those christian "scientists" would take note.

(In Australia there is a very strong movement, a bunch of christian 
scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly
true, and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified
by using the laws of physics.  For example, there are a few chaps who are 
trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old, and that the
error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed 
light has been rapidly decaying over the years, and this has not been 
accounted for. :-] )

>	The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a 
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.

Or (of course), that he never existed, and the bible was a story, and was never 
intended to become a manifesto for a billion people.  Did Tony follow that one
up?

>	Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows.  Who would 
>die for a lie?  Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?  People 
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing 
>someone who was or had been healed.  

Millions of people have "died for a lie".  This  point is difficult to 
substantiate since it is not well defined (a great many religious arguments
work in that way), but consider the many Aztec warriors who sacrificed 
themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory
of the Spanish invaders.  The list is endless.  The Aztecs lost, BTW.

>Call me a fool, but I believe he did heal people.
  
That is perfectly reasonable, but it is not grounds for me (or anyone)
to become a christian.  More to the point, it does not add weight to
the claim that Jesus was the "real thing".


>	Niether was he a lunatic.  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
>to someone who was crazy.  Very doubtful, in fact rediculous.  For example 
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see 
>this right away.

Have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of Nazi Germany?  More to the
point, did Tony mention this?  One could hardly call Werner Heisenberg and his
many colleagues  fools, or  illogical men, their support of Hitler was based 
(I presume) upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with 
his principles.  Obviously my argument is invalid if Tony thought that Hitler
was sane....

 

>	Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the 
>real thing.  

Hmmm.... I don't think his arguments warrant the use of a "Therefore..."

>	Some other things to note.  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.  This in his betrayal 
>and Crucifixion.  I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I 
>write I will use it.

This is (unfortunately) what alot of religious discussions I have had with
people result in - quoting the bible.  The only reasonable way I think
people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of
metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to
present.  If someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally, he or
she will end up in all sorts of shit.   

Tony's argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe
the events described in the bible took place, but to convince someone, 
who thinks the bible is total fiction, that Jesus is real by quoting the
book is totally pointless.  For example, in mathematics you cannot say "a is
equal to b because a is equal to b".

  

>	I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.  

That would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed 
in religious wars, and why there are hundreds of different versions all
claiming to be correct.  

It 
>is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.  Rather I think it 
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's 
>sake.  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
>same.  Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
>over to him.  That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a 
>real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at.  But 
>just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes 
>time.  We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.  
>It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in 
>a while.  We box everything into time units.  Such as work at this 
>time, sports, Tv, social life.  God is above these boxes and should be 
>carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
>ourselves.  	  

I think if you posted this part to alt.religion you would get more flames
than here :-).  I have never really understood why the emotional sentiments
of a stranger should be of interest to other people. 

Someone famous said that there two evils in life, polititians and churchs, one
rules by fear of the living, the other by fear of the dead.  If I am pressed I
could probably find the exact quotation.

Cheers,
Charles.

after prepro  From cbrastedphysicsadelaideeduau Charles Brasted
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization The University of Adelaide
Lines 123
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost adelphiitdadelaideeduau
Keywords Dan Bissell

bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes

	First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian  It 
makes sense to be one  Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar 
lunatic or the real thing  I might be a little off on the title but he 
writes the book  Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity 
in the process he became a Christian himself

I assume you are posting to encourage comments  how much history has
Tony Campello read  Not much it seems 

	The arguements he uses I am summing up  The book is about whether 
Jesus was God or not  I know many of you dont believe but listen to a 
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what 
others have to say  

It is good to hear that there are a few reasonable Christians about
If only those christian scientists would take note

In Australia there is a very strong movement a bunch of christian 
scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly
true and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified
by using the laws of physics  For example there are a few chaps who are 
trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old and that the
error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed 
light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been 
accounted for ] 

	The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy  a 
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was

Or of course that he never existed and the bible was a story and was never 
intended to become a manifesto for a billion people  Did Tony follow that one
up

	Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows  Who would 
die for a lie  Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar  People 
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing 
someone who was or had been healed  

Millions of people have died for a lie  This  point is difficult to 
substantiate since it is not well defined a great many religious arguments
work in that way but consider the many Aztec warriors who sacrificed 
themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory
of the Spanish invaders  The list is endless  The Aztecs lost BTW

Call me a fool but I believe he did heal people
  
That is perfectly reasonable but it is not grounds for me or anyone
to become a christian  More to the point it does not add weight to
the claim that Jesus was the real thing


	Niether was he a lunatic  Would more than an entire nation be drawn 
to someone who was crazy  Very doubtful in fact rediculous  For example 
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see 
this right away

Have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of Nazi Germany  More to the
point did Tony mention this  One could hardly call Werner Heisenberg and his
many colleagues  fools or  illogical men their support of Hitler was based 
I presume upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with 
his principles  Obviously my argument is invalid if Tony thought that Hitler
was sane

 

	Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the 
real thing  

Hmmm I dont think his arguments warrant the use of a Therefore

	Some other things to note  He fulfilled loads of prophecies in 
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone  This in his betrayal 
and Crucifixion  I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I 
write I will use it

This is unfortunately what alot of religious discussions I have had with
people result in  quoting the bible  The only reasonable way I think
people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of
metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to
present  If someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally he or
she will end up in all sorts of shit   

Tonys argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe
the events described in the bible took place but to convince someone 
who thinks the bible is total fiction that Jesus is real by quoting the
book is totally pointless  For example in mathematics you cannot say a is
equal to b because a is equal to b

  

	I dont think most people understand what a Christian is  

That would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed 
in religious wars and why there are hundreds of different versions all
claiming to be correct  

It 
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches  Rather I think it 
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods 
sake  He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the 
same  Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives 
over to him  Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a 
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at  But 
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes 
time  We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life  
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in 
a while  We box everything into time units  Such as work at this 
time sports Tv social life  God is above these boxes and should be 
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for 
ourselves  	  

I think if you posted this part to altreligion you would get more flames
than here   I have never really understood why the emotional sentiments
of a stranger should be of interest to other people 

Someone famous said that there two evils in life polititians and churchs one
rules by fear of the living the other by fear of the dead  If I am pressed I
could probably find the exact quotation

Cheers
Charles

preprocess doc  From: nancyo@shnext15.ucslabs.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 39

In article <1993Apr15.180024.19308@wam.umd.edu>  
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:

+Last night, while watching the 2a.m. rebroadcast of Jerry Springer (a
+talk show) I heard this Jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist. 
+The focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the Jewish
+religion, and why.  

[some stuff deleted]

+Interesting (and scary) no?  They went on to say how the Jews had 
+killed their god, and how in the end of time that all the races would
+go to their homelands (of course, they would remain in America, which
+is New Jeruselem, as it says in Gen 2??? (what another kid said) but
+the rest of the races would go home) and then the great battle or plague
+or whatever Revel. says would happen, and the jews would be killed.
+
+The most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is Catholic, 
+and had the KJV of the Bible on his desk.  He immediatly opened it up
+and began to search for the quoted passages (Gen, Rev, and John) to 
+look for himself, and couldn't find what they said they saw.  I don't
+know

I saw this show a while back, and when I heard these kids
quote the Bible to justify their racist claims, I looked up
that quote about Jesus hating Jews (since Jesus himself was a
Jew, my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim).
The jist of the passage (and I am sorry but I can't recall
which passage it was exactly) was that Jesus was condemning
the Pharisees for being corrupt.
Of course, the Pharisees were Jewish too, but it wasn't Jews
as a whole that Jesus was condemning, just the powers that be.

--
Nancy O'Connor		 +
Psychology undergrad     +         The opinions I express
Simon Fraser University, +         are my own.
Burnaby, B.C.            +
CANADA			 +

after prepro  From nancyoshnext15ucslabssfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC Canada
Lines 39

In article 1993Apr1518002419308wamumdedu  
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes

Last night while watching the 2am rebroadcast of Jerry Springer a
talk show I heard this Jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist 
The focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the Jewish
religion and why  

[some stuff deleted]

Interesting and scary no  They went on to say how the Jews had 
killed their god and how in the end of time that all the races would
go to their homelands of course they would remain in America which
is New Jeruselem as it says in Gen 2 what another kid said but
the rest of the races would go home and then the great battle or plague
or whatever Revel says would happen and the jews would be killed

The most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is Catholic 
and had the KJV of the Bible on his desk  He immediatly opened it up
and began to search for the quoted passages Gen Rev and John to 
look for himself and couldnt find what they said they saw  I dont
know

I saw this show a while back and when I heard these kids
quote the Bible to justify their racist claims I looked up
that quote about Jesus hating Jews since Jesus himself was a
Jew my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim
The jist of the passage and I am sorry but I cant recall
which passage it was exactly was that Jesus was condemning
the Pharisees for being corrupt
Of course the Pharisees were Jewish too but it wasnt Jews
as a whole that Jesus was condemning just the powers that be


Nancy OConnor		 
Psychology undergrad              The opinions I express
Simon Fraser University          are my own
Burnaby BC            
CANADA			 

preprocess doc  From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: DC-X Rollout Report
Article-I.D.: topaz.STEINLY.93Apr6170313
Distribution: sci
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: buenneke@monty.rand.org's message of Tue, 6 Apr 1993 22:34:39 GMT

In article <C532v3.Ftn.1@cs.cmu.edu> buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke) writes:

   McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X

 ...


   SSTO research remains cloudy.  The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
   million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
   follow-on vehicle.  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for

This is a little peculiar way of putting it, SDIO's budget this year
was, what, $3-4 billion? They _could_ fund all of the DC development
out of one years budget - of course they do have other irons in the
fire ;-) and launcher development is not their primary purpose, but
the DC development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money
as by diverting the comparable STS ops budget...

- oh, and before the flames start. I applaud the SDIO for funding DC-X
devlopment and I hope it works, and, no, launcher development is not
NASAs primary goal either, IMHO they are supposed to provide the
enabling technology research for others to do launcher development,
and secondarily operate such launchers as they require - but that's
just me.

|  Steinn Sigurdsson	|I saw two shooting stars last night		|
|  Lick Observatory	|I wished on them but they were only satellites	|
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?		|
| "standard disclaimer"	|I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983	|

after prepro  From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re DCX Rollout Report
ArticleID topazSTEINLY93Apr6170313
Distribution sci
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto buennekemontyrandorgs message of Tue 6 Apr 1993 223439 GMT

In article  buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke writes

   McDonnell Douglas rolls out DCX

 


   SSTO research remains cloudy  The SDI Organization  which paid 60
   million for the DCX  cant itself afford to fund full development of a
   followon vehicle  To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for

This is a little peculiar way of putting it SDIOs budget this year
was what 34 billion They _could_ fund all of the DC development
out of one years budget  of course they do have other irons in the
fire  and launcher development is not their primary purpose but
the DC development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money
as by diverting the comparable STS ops budget

 oh and before the flames start I applaud the SDIO for funding DCX
devlopment and I hope it works and no launcher development is not
NASAs primary goal either IMHO they are supposed to provide the
enabling technology research for others to do launcher development
and secondarily operate such launchers as they require  but thats
just me

  Steinn Sigurdsson	I saw two shooting stars last night		
  Lick Observatory	I wished on them but they were only satellites	
 steinlylickucscedu Is it wrong to wish on space hardware		
 standard disclaimer	I wish I wish I wish youd care  BB 1983	

preprocess doc  From: rdl1@ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Lorenz)
Subject: Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: eagle.ukc.ac.uk

>Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
>for sounding rockets?

Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
tanks big enough.

Working out how much cold gas is another problem, depending on
vehicle configuration, flight duration, thruster Isp (which couples
into storage pressure, which may be a factor in selecting tank
wall thickness etc.)

Ralph Lorenz
Unit for Space Sciences
University of Kent, UK

after prepro  From rdl1ukcacuk RDLorenz
Subject Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization Computing Lab University of Kent at Canterbury UK
Lines 14
NntpPostingHost eagleukcacuk

Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets

Well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the
tanks big enough

Working out how much cold gas is another problem depending on
vehicle configuration flight duration thruster Isp which couples
into storage pressure which may be a factor in selecting tank
wall thickness etc

Ralph Lorenz
Unit for Space Sciences
University of Kent UK

preprocess doc  From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21

In article <1993Apr19.120352.1574@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
>> The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
> believer and who may be "faking it".  This is something known only by
> the person him/herself (and God).  Your assumption that anyone who
> _claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true.

So that still leaves the door totally open for Khomeini, Hussein
et rest. They could still be considered true Muslims, and you can't
judge them, because this is something between God and the person.

You have to apply your rule as well with atheists/agnostics, you
don't know their belief, this is something between them and God.

So why the hoopla about Khomeini not being a real Muslim, and the
hoopla about atheists being not real human beings?

Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.

after prepro  From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re islamic authority over women
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21

In article 1993Apr191203521574monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
 The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
 believer and who may be faking it  This is something known only by
 the person himherself and God  Your assumption that anyone who
 _claims_ to be a believer _is_ a believer is not necessarily true

So that still leaves the door totally open for Khomeini Hussein
et rest They could still be considered true Muslims and you cant
judge them because this is something between God and the person

You have to apply your rule as well with atheistsagnostics you
dont know their belief this is something between them and God

So why the hoopla about Khomeini not being a real Muslim and the
hoopla about atheists being not real human beings

Cheers
Kent

sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND  Private activities on the net

preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 56
	<1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>


jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
> > Sorry, but there are no supernatural
> > forces necessary to create a pathogen.  You are saying, "Since
> > diseases are bad, the bad entity must have created it."  So
> > what would you say about acid rain, meteors falling from the
> > sky, volcanoes, earthquakes, and other QUOTE UNQUOTE "Acts
> > of God?" 
> 
> I would say that they are not "acts of God" but natural
> occurrences.

It amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not
the result of the natural process of evolution (but rather an "act of God")
and then in the same post say that these other processes (volcanos et al.)
are natural occurrences.  Who gave YOU the right to choose what things are
natural processes and what are direct acts of God?  How do you know that
God doesn't cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose
in mind?  It would certainly go along with the sadistic nature I've seen in
the bible.

> >>Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
> >>disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since
> >>humanity forsook God's protection.  If we choose to live apart from
> >>God's law (humanity collectively), then it should come as no surprise
> >>that there are adverse consequences to our (collective) action.  One
> >>of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which
> >>inevitably result in an entropic universe.
> > 
> > May I ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from? 
>
> By "collective" I was referring to the idea that God works with
> humanity on two levels, individually and collectively.  If mankind
> as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of
> mankind), then God will allow the consequences of that action to
> affect mankind as a whole.

Adam & Eve (TWO PEOPLE), even tho they had the honor (or so you christians
claim) of being the first two, definitely do NOT represent a majority in
the billions and trillions (probably more) of people that have come after
them.  Perhaps they were the majority then, but *I* (and YOU) weren't
around to vote, and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to
do with that tree.  But your god never asked us.  He just assumes that if
you have two bad people then they ALL must be bad.  Hmm.  Sounds like the
same kind of false generalization that I see many of the theists posting
here resorting to.  So THAT's where they get it... shoulda known.

> Jim B.

Nanci

.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 56
	1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom


jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
  Sorry but there are no supernatural
  forces necessary to create a pathogen  You are saying Since
  diseases are bad the bad entity must have created it  So
  what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the
  sky volcanoes earthquakes and other QUOTE UNQUOTE Acts
  of God 
 
 I would say that they are not acts of God but natural
 occurrences

It amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not
the result of the natural process of evolution but rather an act of God
and then in the same post say that these other processes volcanos et al
are natural occurrences  Who gave YOU the right to choose what things are
natural processes and what are direct acts of God  How do you know that
God doesnt cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose
in mind  It would certainly go along with the sadistic nature Ive seen in
the bible

 Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
 disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since
 humanity forsook Gods protection  If we choose to live apart from
 Gods law humanity collectively then it should come as no surprise
 that there are adverse consequences to our collective action  One
 of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which
 inevitably result in an entropic universe
  
  May I ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from 

 By collective I was referring to the idea that God works with
 humanity on two levels individually and collectively  If mankind
 as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of
 mankind then God will allow the consequences of that action to
 affect mankind as a whole

Adam  Eve TWO PEOPLE even tho they had the honor or so you christians
claim of being the first two definitely do NOT represent a majority in
the billions and trillions probably more of people that have come after
them  Perhaps they were the majority then but I and YOU werent
around to vote and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to
do with that tree  But your god never asked us  He just assumes that if
you have two bad people then they ALL must be bad  Hmm  Sounds like the
same kind of false generalization that I see many of the theists posting
here resorting to  So THATs where they get it shoulda known

 Jim B

Nanci


If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others


preprocess doc  From: karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Originator: frank@karner.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Lines: 50


In article <1pj2b6$aaa@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> In article <1993Apr3.033446.10669@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
> |> In article <1pint5$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> |> >
> |> Deletions...
> |> Er, Jon, what Ken said was:
> |> 
> |>   There have previously been people like you in your country.  Unfortunately,
> |>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> |>   most Jews did not survive.
> |> 
> |> That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi.
> 
> Hitler and the Nazis didn't spring fully formed from the forehead
> of Athena.   They didn't invent anti-semitism.   They built on a 
> foundation of anti-semitism that was already present in Germany.   
> This foundation of anti-semitism was laid down, not by the Nazis, 
> but by the people I listed, and also by hundreds of years of unthinking, 
> knee-jerk bigotry, on the part of perfectly ordinary people, and, of
> course, their pastors and priests.
> 
> What we have to worry about today is not whether some Hollywood
> Hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the German
> stage in one unprepared step, but whether those same bedrock foundations
> of anti-semitism are being laid down, little by little, in Germany,
> as we speak.
> 
> And if so, they will be laid down, not by Hitlers and Himmlers, who
> will come later, but by "people like" the poster in question.   The
> people who think that casual anti-semitism is acceptable, or even fun.
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
Deletions...
> I did.     Now may I suggest, with the greatest possible respect, that
> you go read some history?
> 
> jon.

So, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic?  Perhaps you
imply that anyone in Germany who doesn't agree with israely policy in a
nazi?  Pray tell, how does it even qualify as "casual anti-semitism"? 
If the term doesn't apply, why then bring it up?

Your own bigotry is shining through.  
-- 

         DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
            solely and do not represent my employer in any way.
       F. A. Karner AIX Technical Support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com

after prepro  From karneraustinibmcom F Karner
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Originator frankkarneraustinibmcom
Organization IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Lines 50


In article 1pj2b6aaafidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
 In article 1993Apr303344610669bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
  In article 1pint51l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
  
  Deletions
  Er Jon what Ken said was
  
    There have previously been people like you in your country  Unfortunately
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    most Jews did not survive
  
  That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi
 
 Hitler and the Nazis didnt spring fully formed from the forehead
 of Athena   They didnt invent antisemitism   They built on a 
 foundation of antisemitism that was already present in Germany   
 This foundation of antisemitism was laid down not by the Nazis 
 but by the people I listed and also by hundreds of years of unthinking 
 kneejerk bigotry on the part of perfectly ordinary people and of
 course their pastors and priests
 
 What we have to worry about today is not whether some Hollywood
 Hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the German
 stage in one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations
 of antisemitism are being laid down little by little in Germany
 as we speak
 
 And if so they will be laid down not by Hitlers and Himmlers who
 will come later but by people like the poster in question   The
 people who think that casual antisemitism is acceptable or even fun
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Deletions
 I did     Now may I suggest with the greatest possible respect that
 you go read some history
 
 jon

So you consider the german posters remark antisemitic  Perhaps you
imply that anyone in Germany who doesnt agree with israely policy in a
nazi  Pray tell how does it even qualify as casual antisemitism 
If the term doesnt apply why then bring it up

Your own bigotry is shining through  
 

         DISCLAIMER The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
            solely and do not represent my employer in any way
       F A Karner AIX Technical Support  karneraustinvnetibmcom

preprocess doc  From: mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 48

In article <16BAFA9D9.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
> 
> 
>Yes, but, fortunately, religions have been replaced by systems
>that value Human Rights higher.

Secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life,
Islam places the rights of society and every member in it above 
the rights of the individual, this is what I call true human rights.

> 
>By the way, do you actually support the claim of precedence of Islamic
>Law? In case you do, what about the laws of other religions?

As a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land I am bound by the laws of the land
I live in, but I do not disregard Islamic Law it still remains a part of my 
life. If the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent
that I am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then I must 
leave the land. So in a way Islamic law does take precendence over secular law
but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too.

In an Islamic state (one ruled by a Khaliphate) religions other than Islam
are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don't affect
the genral population and don't come into direct conflict with state 
laws, Dhimmis (non-Muslim population) are exempt from most Islamic laws
on religion, such as fighting in a Jihad, giving Zakat (alms giving)
etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as Military
protection and if they are poor they will receive Zakat.

> 
>If not, what has it got to do with Rushdie? And has anyone reliable
>information if he hadn't left Islam according to Islamic law?
>Or is the burden of proof on him?
>   Benedikt

After the Fatwa didn't Rushdie re-affirm his faith in Islam, didn't
he go thru' a very public "conversion" to Islam? If so he is binding
himself to Islamic Laws. He has to publicly renounce in his belief in Islam
so the burden is on him.

Mas


-- 
C I T I Z E N  +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
_____   _____  | C A D E N C E  D E S I G N  S Y S T E M S  Inc. |
     \_/       | Masud Ahmed Khan mas@cadence.com All My Opinions|
_____/ \_____  +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

after prepro  From masCadenceCOM Masud Khan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Cadence Design Systems Inc
Lines 48

In article 16BAFA9D9I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
 
 
Yes but fortunately religions have been replaced by systems
that value Human Rights higher

Secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life
Islam places the rights of society and every member in it above 
the rights of the individual this is what I call true human rights

 
By the way do you actually support the claim of precedence of Islamic
Law In case you do what about the laws of other religions

As a Muslim living in a nonMuslim land I am bound by the laws of the land
I live in but I do not disregard Islamic Law it still remains a part of my 
life If the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent
that I am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then I must 
leave the land So in a way Islamic law does take precendence over secular law
but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too

In an Islamic state one ruled by a Khaliphate religions other than Islam
are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they dont affect
the genral population and dont come into direct conflict with state 
laws Dhimmis nonMuslim population are exempt from most Islamic laws
on religion such as fighting in a Jihad giving Zakat alms giving
etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as Military
protection and if they are poor they will receive Zakat

 
If not what has it got to do with Rushdie And has anyone reliable
information if he hadnt left Islam according to Islamic law
Or is the burden of proof on him
   Benedikt

After the Fatwa didnt Rushdie reaffirm his faith in Islam didnt
he go thru a very public conversion to Islam If so he is binding
himself to Islamic Laws He has to publicly renounce in his belief in Islam
so the burden is on him

Mas


 
C I T I Z E N  
_____   _____   C A D E N C E  D E S I G N  S Y S T E M S  Inc 
     \_        Masud Ahmed Khan mascadencecom All My Opinions
_____ \_____  

preprocess doc  From: mcgoy@unicorn.acs.ttu.edu (David McGaughey)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Texas Tech University
Lines: 12

west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> THE POPE IS JEWISH

I always thought that the Pope was a bear.

You know, because of that little saying:

Does a bear shit in the woods?
Is the Pope Catholic?

There MUST be SOME connection between those two lines!


after prepro  From mcgoyunicornacsttuedu David McGaughey
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Texas Tech University
Lines 12

westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
 THE POPE IS JEWISH

I always thought that the Pope was a bear

You know because of that little saying

Does a bear shit in the woods
Is the Pope Catholic

There MUST be SOME connection between those two lines


preprocess doc  From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
            <1993Apr20.001428.724@indyvax.iupui.edu>
Lines: 14

In <1993Apr20.001428.724@indyvax.iupui.edu> tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>Let's play a game - What would be a reasonable reward?  What companies would
>have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat?  Just where in the
>budget would the reward come from?  Should there be a time limit?  Would a
>straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say . . .
>exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years? You get the idea.
 A cash award is OK. A time limit would be nice. You can't give away
mining rights (assuming there's anything to mine) because you don't own
them.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 .sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.

Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
                  nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)

after prepro  From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
            1993Apr20001428724indyvaxiupuiedu
Lines 14

In 1993Apr20001428724indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
Lets play a game  What would be a reasonable reward  What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat  Just where in the
budget would the reward come from  Should there be a time limit  Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say   
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years You get the idea
 A cash award is OK A time limit would be nice You cant give away
mining rights assuming theres anything to mine because you dont own
them
 
 sig files are like strings  every yoyos got one

Greg Nicholls  nichovnetibmcom business or
                  nichoolympusdemoncouk private

preprocess doc  From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net



Some birds require constant management for survival.  Pointing a sensor at
the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out.  Pointing a
parabolic antenna  at Sol,  from venus orbit  may trash the
foci  elements.

Even if you let teh bird drift,  it may  get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena.   

pat

after prepro  From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet



Some birds require constant management for survival  Pointing a sensor at
the sun even when powered down may burn it out  Pointing a
parabolic antenna  at Sol  from venus orbit  may trash the
foci  elements

Even if you let teh bird drift  it may  get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena   

pat

preprocess doc  From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 06/15 - Constants and Equations
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.constants_733694246
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:57:26 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 189
Supersedes: <constants_730956482@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu

Archive-name: space/constants
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:04 $

CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS

    This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer. Additions would be
    appreciated.

    Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
    blue-skying purposes.

    Unix systems provide the 'units' program, useful in converting
    between different systems (metric/English, etc.)

    NUMBERS

	7726 m/s	 (8000)  -- Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
	3075 m/s	 (3000)  -- Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km (geosync)
	6371 km		 (6400)  -- Mean radius of Earth
	6378 km		 (6400)  -- Equatorial radius of Earth
	1738 km		 (1700)  -- Mean radius of Moon
	5.974e24 kg	 (6e24)  -- Mass of Earth
	7.348e22 kg	 (7e22)  -- Mass of Moon
	1.989e30 kg	 (2e30)  -- Mass of Sun
	3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14)  -- Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
	4.903e12 m^3/s^2 (5e12)  -- Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
	1.327e20 m^3/s^2 (13e19) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
	384401 km	 ( 4e5)  -- Mean Earth-Moon distance
	1.496e11 m	 (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)

	1 megaton (MT) TNT = about 4.2e15 J or the energy equivalent of
	about .05 kg (50 gm) of matter. Ref: J.R Williams, "The Energy Level
	of Things", Air Force Special Weapons Center (ARDC), Kirtland Air
	Force Base, New Mexico, 1963. Also see "The Effects of Nuclear
	Weapons", compiled by S. Glasstone and P.J. Dolan, published by the
	US Department of Defense (obtain from the GPO).

    EQUATIONS

	Where d is distance, v is velocity, a is acceleration, t is time.
	Additional more specialized equations are available from:

	    ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/MoreEquations


	For constant acceleration
	    d = d0 + vt + .5at^2
	    v = v0 + at
	  v^2 = 2ad

	Acceleration on a cylinder (space colony, etc.) of radius r and
	    rotation period t:

	    a = 4 pi**2 r / t^2

	For circular Keplerian orbits where:
	    Vc	 = velocity of a circular orbit
	    Vesc = escape velocity
	    M	 = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
	    G	 = Gravitational constant (defined below)
	    u	 = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
	    K	 = -G * M / 2 / a
	    r	 = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
	    V	 = orbital velocity
	    P	 = orbital period
	    a	 = semimajor axis of orbit

	    Vc	 = sqrt(M * G / r)
	    Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
	    V^2  = u/a
	    P	 = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
	    K	 = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)

	    The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
	       of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.

	Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
	circular orbit:

	    delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)

	Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
	velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).

	    GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
	    Re = radius of the earth
	    Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.

	Classical rocket equation, where
	    dv	= change in velocity
	    Isp = specific impulse of engine
	    Ve	= exhaust velocity
	    x	= reaction mass
	    m1	= rocket mass excluding reaction mass
	    g	= 9.80665 m / s^2

	    Ve	= Isp * g
	    dv	= Ve * ln((m1 + x) / m1)
		= Ve * ln((final mass) / (initial mass))

	Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(a*t/c)

	Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR:

	    at/c = Ve/c * ln(MR), or

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(Ve/c * ln(MR))
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(Ve/C * ln(MR)) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(Ve/C * ln(MR))

	Converting from parallax to distance:

	    d (in parsecs) = 1 / p (in arc seconds)
	    d (in astronomical units) = 206265 / p

	Miscellaneous
	    f=ma    -- Force is mass times acceleration
	    w=fd    -- Work (energy) is force times distance

	Atmospheric density varies as exp(-mgz/kT) where z is altitude, m is
	molecular weight in kg of air, g is local acceleration of gravity, T
	is temperature, k is Bolztmann's constant. On Earth up to 100 km,

	    d = d0*exp(-z*1.42e-4)

	where d is density, d0 is density at 0km, is approximately true, so

	    d@12km (40000 ft) = d0*.18
	    d@9 km (30000 ft) = d0*.27
	    d@6 km (20000 ft) = d0*.43
	    d@3 km (10000 ft) = d0*.65

		    Atmospheric scale height	Dry lapse rate
		    (in km at emission level)	 (K/km)
		    -------------------------	--------------
	    Earth	    7.5			    9.8
	    Mars	    11			    4.4
	    Venus	    4.9			    10.5
	    Titan	    18			    1.3
	    Jupiter	    19			    2.0
	    Saturn	    37			    0.7
	    Uranus	    24			    0.7
	    Neptune	    21			    0.8
	    Triton	    8			    1

	Titius-Bode Law for approximating planetary distances:

	    R(n) = 0.4 + 0.3 * 2^N Astronomical Units (N = -infinity for
	    Mercury, 0 for Venus, 1 for Earth, etc.)

	    This fits fairly well except for Neptune.

    CONSTANTS

	6.62618e-34 J-s  (7e-34) -- Planck's Constant "h"
	1.054589e-34 J-s (1e-34) -- Planck's Constant / (2 * PI), "h bar"
	1.3807e-23 J/K	(1.4e-23) - Boltzmann's Constant "k"
	5.6697e-8 W/m^2/K (6e-8) -- Stephan-Boltzmann Constant "sigma"
    6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant "G"
	0.0029 m K	 (3e-3)  -- Wien's Constant "sigma(W)"
	3.827e26 W	 (4e26)  -- Luminosity of Sun
	1370 W / m^2	 (1400)  -- Solar Constant (intensity at 1 AU)
	6.96e8 m	 (7e8)	 -- radius of Sun
	1738 km		 (2e3)	 -- radius of Moon
	299792458 m/s	  (3e8)  -- speed of light in vacuum "c"
	9.46053e15 m	  (1e16) -- light year
	206264.806 AU	  (2e5)  -- \
	3.2616 light years (3)	 --  --> parsec
	3.0856e16 m	 (3e16)  -- /


Black Hole radius (also called Schwarzschild Radius):

	2GM/c^2, where G is Newton's Grav Constant, M is mass of BH,
		c is speed of light

    Things to add (somebody look them up!)
	Basic rocketry numbers & equations
	Aerodynamical stuff
	Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
	    velocities.
	Non-circular cases?


NEXT: FAQ #7/15 - Astronomical Mnemonics

after prepro  From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0615  Constants and Equations
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csconstants_733694246
Expires 6 May 1993 195726 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 189
Supersedes 
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu

Archivename spaceconstants
Lastmodified Date 930401 143904 

CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS

    This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer Additions would be
    appreciated

    Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
    blueskying purposes

    Unix systems provide the units program useful in converting
    between different systems metricEnglish etc

    NUMBERS

	7726 ms	 8000   Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
	3075 ms	 3000   Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km geosync
	6371 km		 6400   Mean radius of Earth
	6378 km		 6400   Equatorial radius of Earth
	1738 km		 1700   Mean radius of Moon
	5974e24 kg	 6e24   Mass of Earth
	7348e22 kg	 7e22   Mass of Moon
	1989e30 kg	 2e30   Mass of Sun
	3986e14 m^3s^2 4e14   Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
	4903e12 m^3s^2 5e12   Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
	1327e20 m^3s^2 13e19  Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
	384401 km	  4e5   Mean EarthMoon distance
	1496e11 m	 15e10  Mean EarthSun distance Astronomical Unit

	1 megaton MT TNT  about 42e15 J or the energy equivalent of
	about 05 kg 50 gm of matter Ref JR Williams The Energy Level
	of Things Air Force Special Weapons Center ARDC Kirtland Air
	Force Base New Mexico 1963 Also see The Effects of Nuclear
	Weapons compiled by S Glasstone and PJ Dolan published by the
	US Department of Defense obtain from the GPO

    EQUATIONS

	Where d is distance v is velocity a is acceleration t is time
	Additional more specialized equations are available from

	    amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQMoreEquations


	For constant acceleration
	    d  d0  vt  5at^2
	    v  v0  at
	  v^2  2ad

	Acceleration on a cylinder space colony etc of radius r and
	    rotation period t

	    a  4 pi2 r  t^2

	For circular Keplerian orbits where
	    Vc	  velocity of a circular orbit
	    Vesc  escape velocity
	    M	  Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
	    G	  Gravitational constant defined below
	    u	  G  M can be measured much more accurately than G or M
	    K	  G  M  2  a
	    r	  radius of orbit measured from center of mass of system
	    V	  orbital velocity
	    P	  orbital period
	    a	  semimajor axis of orbit

	    Vc	  sqrtM  G  r
	    Vesc  sqrt2  M  G  r  sqrt2  Vc
	    V^2   ua
	    P	  2 piSqrtua^3
	    K	  12 V2  G  M  r conservation of energy

	    The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
	       of a circular orbit with the same semimajor axis

	Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
	circular orbit

	    delta V  2 sqrtGMr sin phi2

	Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit ignores rotational
	velocity which reduces the energy a bit

	    GMm 1Re  12Rcirc
	    Re  radius of the earth
	    Rcirc  radius of the circular orbit

	Classical rocket equation where
	    dv	 change in velocity
	    Isp  specific impulse of engine
	    Ve	 exhaust velocity
	    x	 reaction mass
	    m1	 rocket mass excluding reaction mass
	    g	 980665 m  s^2

	    Ve	 Isp  g
	    dv	 Ve  lnm1  x  m1
		 Ve  lnfinal mass  initial mass

	Relativistic rocket equation constant acceleration

	    t unaccelerated  ca  sinhatc
	    d  c2a  coshatc  1
	    v  c  tanhatc

	Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR

	    atc  Vec  lnMR or

	    t unaccelerated  ca  sinhVec  lnMR
	    d  c2a  coshVeC  lnMR  1
	    v  c  tanhVeC  lnMR

	Converting from parallax to distance

	    d in parsecs  1  p in arc seconds
	    d in astronomical units  206265  p

	Miscellaneous
	    fma     Force is mass times acceleration
	    wfd     Work energy is force times distance

	Atmospheric density varies as expmgzkT where z is altitude m is
	molecular weight in kg of air g is local acceleration of gravity T
	is temperature k is Bolztmanns constant On Earth up to 100 km

	    d  d0expz142e4

	where d is density d0 is density at 0km is approximately true so

	    d12km 40000 ft  d018
	    d9 km 30000 ft  d027
	    d6 km 20000 ft  d043
	    d3 km 10000 ft  d065

		    Atmospheric scale height	Dry lapse rate
		    in km at emission level	 Kkm
		    	
	    Earth	    75			    98
	    Mars	    11			    44
	    Venus	    49			    105
	    Titan	    18			    13
	    Jupiter	    19			    20
	    Saturn	    37			    07
	    Uranus	    24			    07
	    Neptune	    21			    08
	    Triton	    8			    1

	TitiusBode Law for approximating planetary distances

	    Rn  04  03  2^N Astronomical Units N  infinity for
	    Mercury 0 for Venus 1 for Earth etc

	    This fits fairly well except for Neptune

    CONSTANTS

	662618e34 Js  7e34  Plancks Constant h
	1054589e34 Js 1e34  Plancks Constant  2  PI h bar
	13807e23 JK	14e23  Boltzmanns Constant k
	56697e8 Wm^2K 6e8  StephanBoltzmann Constant sigma
    6673e11 N m^2kg^2 7e11  Newtons Gravitational Constant G
	00029 m K	 3e3   Wiens Constant sigmaW
	3827e26 W	 4e26   Luminosity of Sun
	1370 W  m^2	 1400   Solar Constant intensity at 1 AU
	696e8 m	 7e8	  radius of Sun
	1738 km		 2e3	  radius of Moon
	299792458 ms	  3e8   speed of light in vacuum c
	946053e15 m	  1e16  light year
	206264806 AU	  2e5   \
	32616 light years 3	    parsec
	30856e16 m	 3e16   


Black Hole radius also called Schwarzschild Radius

	2GMc^2 where G is Newtons Grav Constant M is mass of BH
		c is speed of light

    Things to add somebody look them up
	Basic rocketry numbers  equations
	Aerodynamical stuff
	Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
	    velocities
	Noncircular cases


NEXT FAQ 715  Astronomical Mnemonics

preprocess doc  From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: New Member
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 47

In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com>, dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
|>   Hello. I just started reading this group today, and I think I am going
|> to be a large participant in its daily postings. I liked the section of
|> the FAQ about constructing logical arguments - well done. I am an atheist,
|> but I do not try to turn other people into atheists. I only try to figure
|> why people believe the way they do - I don't much care if they have a 
|> different view than I do. When it comes down to it . . . I could be wrong.
|> I am willing to admit the possibility - something religious followers 
|> dont seem to have the capability to do.

Welcome aboard!

|> 
|>   I notice alot of posts from Bobby. Why does anybody ever respond to 
|> his posts ? He always falls back on the same argument:

(I think you just answered your own question, there)

|> 
|> "If the religion is followed it will cause no bad"
|> 
|>   He is right. Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
|> done "in the name of religion", does not mean that it actually followed
|> the religion. He will always point to the "ideal" and say that it wasn't
|> followed so it can't be the reason for the event. There really is no way
|> to argue with him, so why bother. Sure, you may get upset because his 
|> answer is blind and not supported factually - but he will win every time
|> with his little argument. I don't think there will be any postings from
|> me in direct response to one of his.

Most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that
all atheists are fools/evil for not seeing how peachy Islam is.
I would leave the pro/con arguments of Islam to Fred Rice, who is more
level headed and seems to know more on the subject, anyway.

|> 
|>   Happy to be aboard !

How did you know I was going to welcome you abord?!?

|> 
|> Dave Fuller
|> dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com
|> 
|> 

Brian /-|-\

after prepro  From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re New Member
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 47

In article  dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
   Hello I just started reading this group today and I think I am going
 to be a large participant in its daily postings I liked the section of
 the FAQ about constructing logical arguments  well done I am an atheist
 but I do not try to turn other people into atheists I only try to figure
 why people believe the way they do  I dont much care if they have a 
 different view than I do When it comes down to it    I could be wrong
 I am willing to admit the possibility  something religious followers 
 dont seem to have the capability to do

Welcome aboard

 
   I notice alot of posts from Bobby Why does anybody ever respond to 
 his posts  He always falls back on the same argument

I think you just answered your own question there

 
 If the religion is followed it will cause no bad
 
   He is right Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
 done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed
 the religion He will always point to the ideal and say that it wasnt
 followed so it cant be the reason for the event There really is no way
 to argue with him so why bother Sure you may get upset because his 
 answer is blind and not supported factually  but he will win every time
 with his little argument I dont think there will be any postings from
 me in direct response to one of his

Most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that
all atheists are foolsevil for not seeing how peachy Islam is
I would leave the procon arguments of Islam to Fred Rice who is more
level headed and seems to know more on the subject anyway

 
   Happy to be aboard 

How did you know I was going to welcome you abord

 
 Dave Fuller
 dfullerportalhqvideocartcom
 
 

Brian \

preprocess doc  From: gwh@soda.berkeley.edu (George William Herbert)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Retro Aerospace
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu
Summary: Hmm...

Hmm.  $1 billion, lesse... I can probably launch 100 tons to LEO at
$200 million, in five years, which gives about 20 tons to the lunar
surface one-way.  Say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its
fuel, a bigger Mercury or something (might get that as low as two
tons), leaving fifteen tons for a one-man habitat and a year's supplies?
Gee, with that sort of mass margins I can build the systems off
the shelf for about another hundred million tops.  That leaves
about $700 million profit.  I like this idea 8-)  Let's see
if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8-) 8-)

[slightly seriously]

-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace

after prepro  From gwhsodaberkeleyedu George William Herbert
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Retro Aerospace
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost sodaberkeleyedu
Summary Hmm

Hmm  1 billion lesse I can probably launch 100 tons to LEO at
200 million in five years which gives about 20 tons to the lunar
surface oneway  Say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its
fuel a bigger Mercury or something might get that as low as two
tons leaving fifteen tons for a oneman habitat and a years supplies
Gee with that sort of mass margins I can build the systems off
the shelf for about another hundred million tops  That leaves
about 700 million profit  I like this idea 8  Lets see
if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8 8

[slightly seriously]

george william herbert
Retro Aerospace

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 10
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

>Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)

Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!



    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 10
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes

Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method 

Sherzer Methodology



    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: kjenks@jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks [NASA])
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 40

kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Hey, that's me!) wrote:
: I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
: one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
: Crystal City.  [...]

I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
You can retrieve them from:
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif
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  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeA.gif
  ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeB.gif

The last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing
charts.

These will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days,
so now's the time to grab them if you're interested.  Sorry it took
me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
but it's out of space.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov  (713) 483-4368

     "The earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind will not stay in
     the cradle forever." -- Konstantin Tsiolkvosky

after prepro  From kjenksjscnasagov Ken Jenks [NASA]
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 40

kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov Hey thats me wrote
 I have 19 2 MB worth uuencoded GIF images contain charts outlining
 one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
 Crystal City  []

I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server icsuciedu
You can retrieve them from
  icsucieduincominggeode01gif
  icsucieduincominggeode02gif
  icsucieduincominggeode03gif
  icsucieduincominggeode04gif
  icsucieduincominggeode05gif
  icsucieduincominggeode06gif
  icsucieduincominggeode07gif
  icsucieduincominggeode08gif
  icsucieduincominggeode09gif
  icsucieduincominggeode10gif
  icsucieduincominggeode11gif
  icsucieduincominggeode12gif
  icsucieduincominggeode13gif
  icsucieduincominggeode14gif
  icsucieduincominggeode15gif
  icsucieduincominggeode16gif
  icsucieduincominggeode17gif
  icsucieduincominggeodeAgif
  icsucieduincominggeodeBgif

The last two are scanned color photos the others are scanned briefing
charts

These will be deleted by the icsuciedu system manager in a few days
so nows the time to grab them if youre interested  Sorry it took
me so long to get these out but I was trying for the Ames server
but its out of space

 Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
      kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov  713 4834368

     The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in
     the cradle forever  Konstantin Tsiolkvosky

preprocess doc  From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
            <1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net>
Lines: 10

In <1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>The Work is privately funded,  the DATA belongs to SBV.  I don't see
>either george or Fred,  scoriating IBM research division for
>not releasing data.
   We publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
 .sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.

Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
                  nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)

after prepro  From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Biosphere II
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
            1q77kuav6accessdigexnet
Lines 10

In 1q77kuav6accessdigexnet Pat writes
The Work is privately funded  the DATA belongs to SBV  I dont see
either george or Fred  scoriating IBM research division for
not releasing data
   We publish plenty kiddoyou just have to look
 
 sig files are like strings  every yoyos got one

Greg Nicholls  nichovnetibmcom business or
                  nichoolympusdemoncouk private

preprocess doc  From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Guns for Space
Keywords: Sopa Gun, Space Launcer
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 72


Okay, lets get the record straight on the Livermore gas gun.  
The project manager is Dr. John Hunter, and he works for the
Laser group at Livermore.  What, you may ask, does gas guns
have to do with lasers? Nothing, really, but the gun is physically
located across the road from the Free Electron Laser building,
and the FEL building has a heavily shielded control room (thick walls)
from which the gun firings are controlled.  So I suspect that the
office he works for is an administrative convenience.

I visited Hunter at the beginning of Feb. and we toured the gun.
At the time I was working on gas gun R&D at Boeing, where I work,
but I am now doing other things (helping to save the space station),

The gun uses a methane-air mixture, which is burned in a chamber
about 200 ft long by 16 inch ID (i.e. it looks like a pipe).
The chamber holds a 1 ton piston which is propelled at several
hundred m/s down the chamber.  On the other side of the piston
is hudrogen gas, initially at room temperature andsome tens
of atmospheres.

The piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until
a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures, at around 50,000 psi.
The barrel of the gun is about 100 feet long and has a 4 inch
bore.  It is mounted at right angles to the chamber (i.e. they
intersect).  This was done so that in the future, the barrel
could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to
move the larger and heavier chamber.  The projectile being used
in testing is a 5 kg cylinder of Lexan plastic, 4 in in diameter
and about 50 cm long.

All of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen
gas from 50,000 psi downwards until the projectile leaves the
barrel.  The barrel is evacuated, and the end is sealed with a
sheet of plastic film (a little thicker than Saran wrap).  The
plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped
in the barrel ahead of the projectile.  

The gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic
water jugs.  In the early testing fragments of the plastic
projectile were found.  At the higher speeds in later testing,
the projectile vaporizes.

The testing is into a bunker because the Livermore test range is
about 3 miles across, and the projectile would go 100-200 km
if fired for maximum range.  The intent is to move the whole gun
to Vandenberg AFB after the testing is complete, where they can
fire into the Pacific Ocean, and use the tracking radar at VAFB
to follow the projectiles.

The design goal of the gun is to throw a 5 kg projectile at 4
km/s (half of orbital speed).  So far they have reached 2 km/s,
and the gun is currently down for repairs, as on the last test
they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware (I think it
had to do with the methane-air more detonating than burning, but
I haven't had a chance to talk to Hunter directly on this).

There are people waiting to test scramjet components in this
gun by firing then out of the gun into the air (at Mach 12=
4 km/s), since the most you can get in wind tunnels is Mach 8.

This gun cost about 4 million to develop, and is basically
a proof-of-concept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful-
sized payloads into space.  This would require on the order of
100 kg projectiles, which deliver on the order of 20 kg
useful payload to orbit.

Dani Eder

-- 
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.

after prepro  From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Guns for Space
Keywords Sopa Gun Space Launcer
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 72


Okay lets get the record straight on the Livermore gas gun  
The project manager is Dr John Hunter and he works for the
Laser group at Livermore  What you may ask does gas guns
have to do with lasers Nothing really but the gun is physically
located across the road from the Free Electron Laser building
and the FEL building has a heavily shielded control room thick walls
from which the gun firings are controlled  So I suspect that the
office he works for is an administrative convenience

I visited Hunter at the beginning of Feb and we toured the gun
At the time I was working on gas gun RD at Boeing where I work
but I am now doing other things helping to save the space station

The gun uses a methaneair mixture which is burned in a chamber
about 200 ft long by 16 inch ID ie it looks like a pipe
The chamber holds a 1 ton piston which is propelled at several
hundred ms down the chamber  On the other side of the piston
is hudrogen gas initially at room temperature andsome tens
of atmospheres

The piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until
a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures at around 50000 psi
The barrel of the gun is about 100 feet long and has a 4 inch
bore  It is mounted at right angles to the chamber ie they
intersect  This was done so that in the future the barrel
could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to
move the larger and heavier chamber  The projectile being used
in testing is a 5 kg cylinder of Lexan plastic 4 in in diameter
and about 50 cm long

All of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen
gas from 50000 psi downwards until the projectile leaves the
barrel  The barrel is evacuated and the end is sealed with a
sheet of plastic film a little thicker than Saran wrap  The
plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped
in the barrel ahead of the projectile  

The gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic
water jugs  In the early testing fragments of the plastic
projectile were found  At the higher speeds in later testing
the projectile vaporizes

The testing is into a bunker because the Livermore test range is
about 3 miles across and the projectile would go 100200 km
if fired for maximum range  The intent is to move the whole gun
to Vandenberg AFB after the testing is complete where they can
fire into the Pacific Ocean and use the tracking radar at VAFB
to follow the projectiles

The design goal of the gun is to throw a 5 kg projectile at 4
kms half of orbital speed  So far they have reached 2 kms
and the gun is currently down for repairs as on the last test
they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware I think it
had to do with the methaneair more detonating than burning but
I havent had a chance to talk to Hunter directly on this

There are people waiting to test scramjet components in this
gun by firing then out of the gun into the air at Mach 12
4 kms since the most you can get in wind tunnels is Mach 8

This gun cost about 4 million to develop and is basically
a proofofconcept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful
sized payloads into space  This would require on the order of
100 kg projectiles which deliver on the order of 20 kg
useful payload to orbit

Dani Eder

 
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt

preprocess doc  From: bill@xpresso.UUCP (Bill Vance)
Subject: TRUE "GLOBE", Who makes it?
Organization: (N.) To be organized.  But that's not important right now.....
Lines: 11
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globular/spherical.  Does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate
as to actual shape, landmass configuration/Long/Lat lines etc.?
Thanks in advance.

--

bill@xpresso.UUCP                   (Bill Vance),             Bothell, WA
rwing!xpresso!bill

You listen when I xpresso, I listen When uuxpresso.......:-)

after prepro  From billxpressoUUCP Bill Vance
Subject TRUE GLOBE Who makes it
Organization N To be organized  But thats not important right now
Lines 11
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]

It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globularspherical  Does anyone make a globe that is accurate
as to actual shape landmass configurationLongLat lines etc
Thanks in advance



billxpressoUUCP                   Bill Vance             Bothell WA
rwingxpressobill

You listen when I xpresso I listen When uuxpresso

from sklearn.feature_extraction.text import TfidfVectorizer

def identity_tokenizer(text):
    return text
tfidf_vec = TfidfVectorizer(lowercase=False, tokenizer=identity_tokenizer, stop_words=None)

from sklearn.pipeline import Pipeline

X_feat = tfidf_vec.fit_transform(X_prepro)

X_feat

<1073x25528 sparse matrix of type '<class 'numpy.float64'>'
	with 147153 stored elements in Compressed Sparse Row format>

Training

pipe = Pipeline([
    ('prepro', peprocessor()),
    ('tfidf', tfidf_vec),
    ('clf', LinearSVC(class_weight = 'balanced', random_state=42))
])

pipe.fit(X[:5], y[:5])

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18

Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
: 
: >> Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory?
: 
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
: 
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.

When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18

Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
 
  Please enlighten me  How is omnipotence contradictory
 
 By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
 of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
 in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
 the rules of nature
 
 Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules

When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question

Bill

preprocess doc  From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29

In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov 
(Ron Baalke) writes:

>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
>                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
>                            April 16, 1993
>
>
>2.  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?

>4.  On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??

BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)

ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
 
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|

after prepro  From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update  041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29

In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov 
Ron Baalke writes

Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16 1993


2  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it

4  On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on 

BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding 

ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
 
 

      JHWITTENCSRUUNL            
Jurriaan Wittenberg  Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
>>of a private Titan pad? 
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development.  If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans.  It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.

Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins. 

Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.  

You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun.  And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO. 

Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment?  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...




    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad 

Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development  If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway

Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans  It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness

Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins 

Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of  reward for   

You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun  And working out the
bugs of assembly  integration in LEO 

Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there




    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28

msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:


>Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?

No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.

>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet?

>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28

msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes


Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person

No I estimate a 99  probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done

Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto	Information  We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom				 The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet

This article is in the public domain

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
	<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>

dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
>   Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
> 
>   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what 
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.

Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities!  I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn!  They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)

> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?

Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
	
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
   Nice attempt Chris    verrry close
 
   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
 He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
 wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what 
 happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
 THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
 been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it    I
 have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
 receive all of the praise being paid to jesus

Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities  I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn  Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do 

 Dave Buckminster Fuller
 How is that one o keeper of the nicknames 

Nanci

If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh

Pipeline(steps=[('prepro', peprocessor()),
                ('tfidf',
                 TfidfVectorizer(lowercase=False,
                                 tokenizer=<function identity_tokenizer at 0x7f7f1cb20710>)),
                ('clf', LinearSVC(class_weight='balanced', random_state=42))])

Evalution

Skip validation set performance evaluation. Short check on training data only for functionality test.

pipe.predict(X[:5])

preprocess doc  From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18

Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
: 
: >> Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory?
: 
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
: 
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.

When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.

Bill

after prepro  From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18

Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
 
  Please enlighten me  How is omnipotence contradictory
 
 By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
 of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
 in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
 the rules of nature
 
 Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules

When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question

Bill

preprocess doc  From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29

In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov 
(Ron Baalke) writes:

>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
>                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
>                            April 16, 1993
>
>
>2.  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?

>4.  On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??

BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)

ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
 
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|

after prepro  From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update  041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29

In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov 
Ron Baalke writes

Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager

                        MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
                            April 16 1993


2  Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it

4  On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on 

BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding 

ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
 
 

      JHWITTENCSRUUNL            
Jurriaan Wittenberg  Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____

preprocess doc  From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu

In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff.  Do you know 
>>of a private Titan pad? 
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development.  If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans.  It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.

Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins. 

Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.  

You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun.  And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO. 

Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment?  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...




    Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --

after prepro  From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu

In article  henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff  Do you know 
of a private Titan pad 

Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development  If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway

Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans  It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness

Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins 

Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of  reward for   

You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun  And working out the
bugs of assembly  integration in LEO 

Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment  I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there




    Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
                     SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU                         

preprocess doc  From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28

msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:


>Thanks again.  One final question.  The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?

No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.

>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto	"Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com				-- The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet?

>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering         |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man



after prepro  From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28

msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes


Thanks again  One final question  The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person

No I estimate a 99  probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory

Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done

Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto	Information  We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom				 The Prisoner

You have the info on Mayan Television yet

This article is in the public domain

Phil Fraering         Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man



preprocess doc  From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
	<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>

dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
>   Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
> 
>   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what 
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.

Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities!  I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn!  They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)

> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?

Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.


after prepro  From Nanci Ann Miller 
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
	
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 

dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
   Nice attempt Chris    verrry close
 
   You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
 He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
 wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what 
 happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
 THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
 been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it    I
 have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
 receive all of the praise being paid to jesus

Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities  I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn  Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do 

 Dave Buckminster Fuller
 How is that one o keeper of the nicknames 

Nanci

If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh

array([0, 1, 1, 1, 0])

II) Save to Mlflow

Use custom pyfunc implementation due to the nltk dependency

from mlflow.models.signature import ModelSignature
from mlflow.types.schema import Schema, ColSpec
import mlflow

input_example = {
  "text": "Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory",
}
input_schema = Schema([
  ColSpec("string", "text")
])
output_schema = Schema([ColSpec("string")])
signature = ModelSignature(inputs=input_schema, outputs=output_schema)
signature

inputs: 
  ['text': string]
outputs: 
  [string]

test_text = ["Please enlighten me.  How is omnipotence contradictory"]

Save Local

# ! rm -rf tests/classifier
# mlflow.sklearn.save_model(
#     pipe, 
#     path = "tests/classifier", # save local
#     conda_env="environment_model.yml", 
#     #mlflow_model=None, 
#     #serialization_format='cloudpickle', 
#     signature = signature,
#     input_example = input_example, 
#     pip_requirements=None, extra_pip_requirements=None)

#local_model = mlflow.sklearn.load_model("classifier")

#local_model.predict(test_text)

Save to MLflow

mlflow.set_tracking_uri("http://localhost:8088")

experiment_name = "document_classifier"

#mlflow.create_experiment(experiment_name)

mlflow.set_experiment(experiment_name)
experiment = mlflow.get_experiment_by_name(experiment_name)

mlflow.start_run(experiment_id=experiment.experiment_id, run_name="baseline3")

<ActiveRun: >

mlflow.sklearn.log_model(
    pipe, 
    artifact_path="model", 
    conda_env="environment_model.yml", 
    #serialization_format='cloudpickle', 
    registered_model_name=None, 
    signature= signature,
    input_example= input_example)
    #await_registration_for=300, 
    #pip_requirements=None, 
    #extra_pip_requirements=None)

!jupyter nbconvert --to html NLP_Classifier.ipynb
mlflow.log_artifact("NLP_Classifier.ipynb")
mlflow.log_artifact("NLP_Classifier.html")

mlflow.end_run()