import sklearn
from sklearn.feature_extraction.text import TfidfVectorizer
from sklearn.base import BaseEstimator, TransformerMixin
from sklearn.svm import LinearSVC
from bs4 import BeautifulSoup
import re
import numpy as np
from nltk.stem import WordNetLemmatizer
from nltk.corpus import stopwords, wordnet
import nltk
nltk.download('averaged_perceptron_tagger')
nltk.download('wordnet')
nltk.download('stopwords')
nltk.download('omw')
[nltk_data] Downloading package averaged_perceptron_tagger to [nltk_data] /Users/christian/nltk_data... [nltk_data] Package averaged_perceptron_tagger is already up-to- [nltk_data] date! [nltk_data] Downloading package wordnet to [nltk_data] /Users/christian/nltk_data... [nltk_data] Package wordnet is already up-to-date! [nltk_data] Downloading package stopwords to [nltk_data] /Users/christian/nltk_data... [nltk_data] Unzipping corpora/stopwords.zip. [nltk_data] Downloading package omw to /Users/christian/nltk_data... [nltk_data] Package omw is already up-to-date!
True
from sklearn.datasets import fetch_20newsgroups
# sklearn transformer for pipeline
class peprocessor(BaseEstimator, TransformerMixin):
"""text preprocessor"""
def __init__(self):
self.lemmatizer = WordNetLemmatizer()
self.nltk_stopwords = stopwords.words('english')
def nltk_tag_to_wordnet_tag(self, nltk_tag):
if nltk_tag.startswith('J'):
return wordnet.ADJ
elif nltk_tag.startswith('V'):
return wordnet.VERB
elif nltk_tag.startswith('N'):
return wordnet.NOUN
elif nltk_tag.startswith('R'):
return wordnet.ADV
else:
return wordnet.NOUN
def remove_html_tags(self, text):
soup = BeautifulSoup(text, "html.parser")
removed_html_text = soup.get_text()
return removed_html_text
def remove_special_chars(self, text):
pattern = r'[^a-zA-z0-9\s]'
text = re.sub(pattern, '', text)
text = re.sub(r'[\x00-\x08\x0b\x0c\x0e-\x1f\x7f-\xff]', '', text)
return text
def preprocess_doc(self, text):
print('preprocess doc ', text)
assert type(text) == str
text = text.replace(r'\n',' ')
text = self.remove_html_tags(text)
text = self.remove_special_chars(text)
print("after prepro ", text)
if len(text.split()) < 5:
return np.nan
# tokenize the sentence and find the POS tag for each token
nltk_tagged = nltk.pos_tag(nltk.word_tokenize(text))
# tuple of (token, wordnet_tag)
wordnet_tagged = map(lambda x: (x[0], self.nltk_tag_to_wordnet_tag(
x[1])), nltk_tagged)
lemmas = [self.lemmatizer.lemmatize(word, tag) for word, tag in \
wordnet_tagged if not word in self.nltk_stopwords]
return lemmas
def transform(self, X, y=None):
return [self.preprocess_doc(text) for text in X]
def fit(self, X, y=None):
return self
preproc = peprocessor()
newsgroups_train = fetch_20newsgroups(subset='train', categories=['alt.atheism', 'sci.space'],
random_state=42)
X = newsgroups_train.data
y = newsgroups_train.target
X[0]
'From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)\nSubject: Re: Not the Omni!\nNntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu\nOrganization: Okcforum Unix Users Group\nX-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]\nLines: 18\n\nCharley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:\n: \n: >> Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory?\n: \n: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules\n: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed\n: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts\n: >the rules of nature.\n: \n: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.\n\nWhen you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;\ncertainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of\nnature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but\nactually cause it. If that\'s what you mean I\'d like to hear your\nfurther thoughts on the question.\n\nBill\n'
y[0]
0
len(X), len(y)
(1073, 1073)
Create tokens in prepro step, hence pass tokens to tfidf vect.
X_prepro = [preproc.preprocess_doc(text) for text in X]
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18
Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
:
: >> Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory?
:
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
:
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.
When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18
Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
Please enlighten me How is omnipotence contradictory
By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
the rules of nature
Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules
When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question
Bill
preprocess doc From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29
In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
(Ron Baalke) writes:
>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
> MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
> April 16, 1993
>
>
>2. Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?
>4. On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??
BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)
ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|
after prepro From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update 041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29
In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 16 1993
2 Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it
4 On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on
BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding
ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
JHWITTENCSRUUNL
Jurriaan Wittenberg Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
>>of a private Titan pad?
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development. If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans. It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.
Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins.
Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.
You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun. And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO.
Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment? I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway
Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness
Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins
Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of reward for
You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun And working out the
bugs of assembly integration in LEO
Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?
No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.
>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet?
>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28
msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
No I estimate a 99 probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Information We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet
This article is in the public domain
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
> Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
>
> You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.
Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities! I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn! They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)
> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
Nice attempt Chris verrry close
You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what
happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it I
have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus
Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do
Dave Buckminster Fuller
How is that one o keeper of the nicknames
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh
preprocess doc From: cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Florida State University Geology Dept.
Lines: 4
This discussion is better followed in talk.politics.space
Joseph Cain cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu
cain@fsu.bitnet scri::cain
(904) 644-4014 FAX (904) 644-4214 or -0098
after prepro From caingeomagglyfsuedu Joe Cain
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Florida State University Geology Dept
Lines 4
This discussion is better followed in talkpoliticsspace
Joseph Cain caingeomagglyfsuedu
cainfsubitnet scricain
904 6444014 FAX 904 6444214 or 0098
preprocess doc From: bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu (Mark Bradford)
Subject: Astro/Space Frequently Seen Acronyms
Supersedes: <space/acronyms_731394007@GZA.COM>
Organization: LifeForms Unlimited, Cephalopods
Lines: 509
Expires: 19 May 1993 04:00:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: pad-thai.aktis.com
Keywords: long space astro tla acronyms
X-Last-Updated: 1992/12/07
Archive-name: space/acronyms
Edition: 8
Acronym List for sci.astro, sci.space, and sci.space.shuttle:
Edition 8, 1992 Dec 7
Last posted: 1992 Aug 27
This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing
acronyms in the space-related newsgroups. If I forgot or botched your
favorite acronym, please let me know! Also, if there's an acronym *not*
on this list that confuses you, drop me a line, and if I can figure
it out, I'll add it to the list.
Note that this is intended to be a reference for *frequently seen*
acronyms, and is most emphatically *not* encyclopedic. If I incorporated
every acronym I ever saw, I'd soon run out of disk space! :-)
The list will be posted at regular intervals, every 30 days. All
comments regarding it are welcome; I'm reachable as bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu.
Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for -- you're on your
own for figuring out what they *mean*! Note also that the total number of
acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list; special-purpose acronyms that
are essentially always explained as they're introduced are omitted.
Further, some acronyms stand for more than one thing; as of Edition 3 of
the list, these acronyms appear on multiple lines, unless they're simply
different ways of referring to the same thing.
Thanks to everybody who's sent suggestions since the first version of
the list, and especially to Garrett A. Wollman (wollman@griffin.uvm.edu),
who is maintaining an independent list, somewhat more verbose in
character than mine, and to Daniel Fischer (dfi@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de),
who is maintaining a truly HUGE list (535 at last count) of acronyms and
terms, mostly in German (which I read, fortunately).
Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA, who sent me a copy of NASA
Reference Publication 1059 Revised: _Space Transportation System and
Associated Payloads: Glossary, Acronyms, and Abbreviations_, a truly
mammoth tome -- almost 300 pages of TLAs.
Special Bonus! At the end of this posting, you will find a perl program
written by none other than Larry Wall, whose purpose is to scramble the
acronym list in an entertaining fashion. Thanks, Larry!
A&A: Astronomy and Astrophysics
AAO: Anglo-Australian Observatory
AAS: American Astronomical Society
AAS: American Astronautical Society
AAVSO: American Association of Variable Star Observers
ACE: Advanced Composition Explorer
ACRV: Assured Crew Return Vehicle (or) Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle
ADFRF: Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility (was DFRF) (NASA)
AGN: Active Galactic Nucleus
AGU: American Geophysical Union
AIAA: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
AIPS: Astronomical Image Processing System
AJ: Astronomical Journal
ALEXIS: Array of Low Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors
ALPO: Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers
ALS: Advanced Launch System
ANSI: American National Standards Institute
AOA: Abort Once Around (Shuttle abort plan)
AOCS: Attitude and Orbit Control System
Ap.J: Astrophysical Journal
APM: Attached Pressurized Module (a.k.a. Columbus)
APU: Auxiliary Power Unit
ARC: Ames Research Center (NASA)
ARTEMIS: Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion
ASA: Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ASI: Agenzia Spaziale Italiano
ASRM: Advanced Solid Rocket Motor
ATDRS: Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
ATLAS: Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science
ATM: Amateur Telescope Maker
ATO: Abort To Orbit (Shuttle abort plan)
AU: Astronomical Unit
AURA: Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy
AW&ST: Aviation Week and Space Technology (a.k.a. AvLeak)
AXAF: Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility
BATSE: Burst And Transient Source Experiment (on CGRO)
BBXRT: Broad-Band X-Ray Telescope (ASTRO package)
BEM: Bug-Eyed Monster
BH: Black Hole
BIMA: Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array
BNSC: British National Space Centre
BTW: By The Way
C&T: Communications & Tracking
CCAFS: Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
CCD: Charge-Coupled Device
CCDS: Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
CD-ROM: Compact Disk Read-Only Memory
CFA: Center For Astrophysics
CFC: ChloroFluoroCarbon
CFF: Columbus Free Flyer
CFHT: Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope
CGRO: (Arthur Holley) Compton Gamma Ray Observatory (was GRO)
CHARA: Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy
CIRRIS: Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle
CIT: Circumstellar Imaging Telescope
CM: Command Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CMCC: Central Mission Control Centre (ESA)
CNES: Centre National d'Etude Spatiales
CNO: Carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen
CNSR: Comet Nucleus Sample Return
COBE: COsmic Background Explorer
COMPTEL: COMPton TELescope (on CGRO)
COSTAR: Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement
CRAF: Comet Rendezvous / Asteroid Flyby
CRRES: Combined Release / Radiation Effects Satellite
CSM: Command and Service Module (Apollo spacecraft)
CSTC: Consolidated Satellite Test Center (USAF)
CTIO: Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory
DCX: Delta Clipper eXperimental
DDCU: DC-to-DC Converter Unit
DFRF: Dryden Flight Research Facility (now ADFRF)
DMSP: Defense Meteorological Satellite Program
DOD: Department Of Defense (sometimes DoD)
DOE: Department Of Energy
DOT: Department Of Transportation
DSCS: Defense Satellite Communications System
DSN: Deep Space Network
DSP: Defense Support Program (USAF/NRO)
EAFB: Edwards Air Force Base
ECS: Environmental Control System
EDO: Extended Duration Orbiter
EGRET: Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope (on CGRO)
EJASA: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ELV: Expendable Launch Vehicle
EMU: Extravehicular Mobility Unit
EOS: Earth Observing System
ERS: Earth Resources Satellite (as in ERS-1)
ESA: European Space Agency
ESO: European Southern Observatory
ET: (Shuttle) External Tank
ETLA: Extended Three Letter Acronym
ETR: Eastern Test Range
EUV: Extreme UltraViolet
EUVE: Extreme UltraViolet Explorer
EVA: ExtraVehicular Activity
FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions
FAST: Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer
FFT: Fast Fourier Transform
FGS: Fine Guidance Sensors (on HST)
FHST: Fixed Head Star Trackers (on HST)
FIR: Far InfraRed
FITS: Flexible Image Transport System
FOC: Faint Object Camera (on HST)
FOS: Faint Object Spectrograph (on HST)
FRR: Flight-Readiness Review
FTP: File Transfer Protocol
FTS: Flight Telerobotic Servicer
FUSE: Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer
FWHM: Full Width at Half Maximum
FYI: For Your Information
GAS: Get-Away Special
GBT: Green Bank Telescope
GCVS: General Catalog of Variable Stars
GEM: Giotto Extended Mission
GEO: Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
GDS: Great Dark Spot
GHRS: Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph (on HST)
GIF: Graphics Interchange Format
GLOMR: Global Low-Orbiting Message Relay
GMC: Giant Molecular Cloud
GMRT: Giant Meter-wave Radio Telescope
GMT: Greenwich Mean Time (also called UT)
GOES: Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite
GOX: Gaseous OXygen
GPC: General Purpose Computer
GPS: Global Positioning System
GRO: Gamma Ray Observatory (now CGRO)
GRS: Gamma Ray Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
GRS: Great Red Spot
GSC: Guide Star Catalog (for HST)
GSFC: Goddard Space Flight Center (NASA)
GTO: Geostationary Transfer Orbit
HAO: High Altitude Observatory
HD: Henry Draper catalog entry
HEAO: High Energy Astronomical Observatory
HeRA: Hermes Robotic Arm
HF: High Frequency
HGA: High Gain Antenna
HLC: Heavy Lift Capability
HLV: Heavy Lift Vehicle
HMC: Halley Multicolor Camera (on Giotto)
HR: Hertzsprung-Russell (diagram)
HRI: High Resolution Imager (on ROSAT)
HSP: High Speed Photometer (on HST)
HST: Hubble Space Telescope
HUT: Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope (ASTRO package)
HV: High Voltage
IAPPP: International Amateur/Professional Photoelectric Photometry
IAU: International Astronomical Union
IAUC: IAU Circular
ICE: International Cometary Explorer
IDA: International Dark-sky Association
IDL: Interactive Data Language
IGM: InterGalactic Medium
IGY: International Geophysical Year
IMHO: In My Humble Opinion
IOTA: Infrared-Optical Telescope Array
IOTA: International Occultation Timing Association
IPS: Inertial Pointing System
IR: InfraRed
IRAF: Image Reduction and Analysis Facility
IRAS: InfraRed Astronomical Satellite
ISAS: Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (Japan)
ISM: InterStellar Medium
ISO: Infrared Space Observatory
ISO: International Standards Organization
ISPM: International Solar Polar Mission (now Ulysses)
ISY: International Space Year
IUE: International Ultraviolet Explorer
IUS: Inertial Upper Stage
JEM: Japanese Experiment Module (for SSF)
JGR: Journal of Geophysical Research
JILA: Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics
JPL: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
JSC: Johnson Space Center (NASA)
KAO: Kuiper Airborne Observatory
KPNO: Kitt Peak National Observatory
KSC: Kennedy Space Center (NASA)
KTB: Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary (from German)
LANL: Los Alamos National Laboratory
LaRC: Langley Research Center (NASA)
LDEF: Long Duration Exposure Facility
LEM: Lunar Excursion Module (a.k.a. LM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LEO: Low Earth Orbit
LeRC: Lewis Research Center (NASA)
LEST: Large Earth-based Solar Telescope
LFSA: List of Frequently Seen Acronyms (!)
LGA: Low Gain Antenna
LGM: Little Green Men
LH: Liquid Hydrogen (also LH2 or LHX)
LLNL: Lawrence-Livermore National Laboratory
LM: Lunar Module (a.k.a. LEM) (Apollo spacecraft)
LMC: Large Magellanic Cloud
LN2: Liquid N2 (Nitrogen)
LOX: Liquid OXygen
LRB: Liquid Rocket Booster
LSR: Local Standard of Rest
LTP: Lunar Transient Phenomenon
MB: Manned Base
MCC: Mission Control Center
MECO: Main Engine CutOff
MMH: MonoMethyl Hydrazine
MMT: Multiple Mirror Telescope
MMU: Manned Maneuvering Unit
MNRAS: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
MOC: Mars Observer Camera (on Mars Observer)
MOL: Manned Orbiting Laboratory
MOLA: Mars Observer Laser Altimeter (on Mars Observer)
MOMV: Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
MOTV: Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle
MPC: Minor Planets Circular
MRSR: Mars Rover and Sample Return
MRSRM: Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission
MSFC: (George C.) Marshall Space Flight Center (NASA)
MTC: Man Tended Capability
NACA: National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (became NASA)
NASA: National Aeronautics and Space Administration
NASDA: NAtional Space Development Agency (Japan)
NASM: National Air and Space Museum
NASP: National AeroSpace Plane
NBS: National Bureau of Standards (now NIST)
NDV: NASP Derived Vehicle
NERVA: Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application
NGC: New General Catalog
NICMOS: Near Infrared Camera / Multi Object Spectrometer (HST upgrade)
NIMS: Near-Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (on Galileo)
NIR: Near InfraRed
NIST: National Institute for Standards and Technology (was NBS)
NLDP: National Launch Development Program
NOAA: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NOAO: National Optical Astronomy Observatories
NRAO: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
NRO: National Reconnaissance Office
NS: Neutron Star
NSA: National Security Agency
NSF: National Science Foundation
NSO: National Solar Observatory
NSSDC: National Space Science Data Center
NTR: Nuclear Thermal Rocket(ry)
NTT: New Technology Telescope
OAO: Orbiting Astronomical Observatory
OCST: Office of Commercial Space Transportation
OMB: Office of Management and Budget
OMS: Orbital Maneuvering System
OPF: Orbiter Processing Facility
ORFEUS: Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer
OSC: Orbital Sciences Corporation
OSCAR: Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio
OSSA: Office of Space Science and Applications
OSSE: Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment (on CGRO)
OTA: Optical Telescope Assembly (on HST)
OTHB: Over The Horizon Backscatter
OTV: Orbital Transfer Vehicle
OV: Orbital Vehicle
PAM: Payload Assist Module
PAM-D: Payload Assist Module, Delta-class
PI: Principal Investigator
PLSS: Portable Life Support System
PM: Pressurized Module
PMC: Permanently Manned Capability
PMIRR: Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer (on Mars Observer)
PMT: PhotoMultiplier Tube
PSF: Point Spread Function
PSR: PulSaR
PV: Photovoltaic
PVO: Pioneer Venus Orbiter
QSO: Quasi-Stellar Object
RCI: Rodent Cage Interface (for SLS mission)
RCS: Reaction Control System
REM: Rat Enclosure Module (for SLS mission)
RF: Radio Frequency
RFI: Radio Frequency Interference
RIACS: Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science
RMS: Remote Manipulator System
RNGC: Revised New General Catalog
ROSAT: ROentgen SATellite
ROUS: Rodents Of Unusual Size (I don't believe they exist)
RSN: Real Soon Now
RTG: Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
RTLS: Return To Launch Site (Shuttle abort plan)
SAA: South Atlantic Anomaly
SAGA: Solar Array Gain Augmentation (for HST)
SAMPEX: Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer
SAO: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
SAR: Search And Rescue
SAR: Synthetic Aperture Radar
SARA: Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur
SAREX: Search and Rescue Exercise
SAREX: Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment
SAS: Space Activity Suit
SAS: Space Adaptation Syndrome
SAT: Synthetic Aperture Telescope
S/C: SpaceCraft
SCA: Shuttle Carrier Aircraft
SCT: Schmidt-Cassegrain Telescope
SDI: Strategic Defense Initiative
SDIO: Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
SEI: Space Exploration Initiative
SEST: Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope
SETI: Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
SID: Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance
SIR: Shuttle Imaging Radar
SIRTF: Space (formerly Shuttle) InfraRed Telescope Facility
SL: SpaceLab
SLAR: Side-Looking Airborne Radar
SLC: Space Launch Complex
SLS: Space(lab) Life Sciences
SMC: Small Magellanic Cloud
SME: Solar Mesosphere Explorer
SMEX: SMall EXplorers
SMM: Solar Maximum Mission
SN: SuperNova (e.g., SN1987A)
SNR: Signal to Noise Ratio
SNR: SuperNova Remnant
SNU: Solar Neutrino Units
SOFIA: Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy
SOHO: SOlar Heliospheric Observatory
SPAN: Space Physics and Analysis Network
SPDM: Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator
SPOT: Systeme Probatoire pour l'Observation de la Terre
SPS: Solar Power Satellite
SRB: Solid Rocket Booster
SRM: Solid Rocket Motor
SSF: Space Station Fred (er, Freedom)
SSI: Solid-State Imager (on Galileo)
SSI: Space Studies Institut
SSME: Space Shuttle Main Engine
SSPF: Space Station Processing Facility
SSRMS: Space Station Remote Manipulator System
SST: Spectroscopic Survey Telescope
SST: SuperSonic Transport
SSTO: Single Stage To Orbit
STIS: Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer (to replace FOC and GHRS)
STS: Shuttle Transport System (or) Space Transportation System
STScI: Space Telescope Science Institute
SWAS: Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
SWF: ShortWave Fading
TAL: Transatlantic Abort Landing (Shuttle abort plan)
TAU: Thousand Astronomical Unit (mission)
TCS: Thermal Control System
TDRS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
TDRSS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System
TES: Thermal Emission Spectrometer (on Mars Observer)
TIROS: Television InfraRed Observation Satellite
TLA: Three Letter Acronym
TOMS: Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer
TPS: Thermal Protection System
TSS: Tethered Satellite System
UARS: Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
UBM: Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism
UDMH: Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine
UFO: Unidentified Flying Object
UGC: Uppsala General Catalog
UHF: Ultra High Frequency
UIT: Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (Astro package)
UKST: United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope
USAF: United States Air Force
USMP: United States Microgravity Payload
UT: Universal Time (a.k.a. GMT, UTC, or Zulu Time)
UTC: Coordinated Universal Time (a.k.a. UT)
UV: UltraViolet
UVS: UltraViolet Spectrometer
VAB: Vehicle Assembly Building (formerly Vertical Assembly Building)
VAFB: Vandenberg Air Force Base
VEEGA: Venus-Earth-Earth Gravity Assist (Galileo flight path)
VHF: Very High Frequency
VLA: Very Large Array
VLBA: Very Long Baseline Array
VLBI: Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLF: Very Low Frequency
VLT: Very Large Telescope
VMS: Vertical Motion Simulator
VOIR: Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar (superseded by VRM)
VPF: Vertical Processing Facility
VRM: Venus Radar Mapper (now called Magellan)
WD: White Dwarf
WFPC: Wide Field / Planetary Camera (on HST)
WFPCII: Replacement for WFPC
WIYN: Wisconsin / Indiana / Yale / NOAO telescope
WSMR: White Sands Missile Range
WTR: Western Test Range
WUPPE: Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment (Astro package)
XMM: X-ray Multi Mirror
XUV: eXtreme UltraViolet
YSO: Young Stellar Object
#!/usr/bin/perl
# 'alt', An Acronym Scrambling Program, by Larry Wall
$THRESHOLD = 2;
srand;
while (<>) {
next unless /^([A-Z]\S+): */;
$key = $1;
$acro{$key} = $';
@words = split(/\W+/,$');
unshift(@words,$key);
$off = 0;
foreach $word (@words) {
next unless $word =~ /^[A-Z]/;
*w = $&;
vec($w{$word}, $off++ % 6, 1) = 1;
}
}
foreach $letter (A .. Z) {
*w = $letter;
@w = keys %w;
if (@w < $THRESHOLD) {
@d = `egrep '^$letter' /usr/dict/words`;
chop @d;
push(@w, @d);
}
}
foreach $key (sort keys %acro) {
$off = 0;
$acro = $acro{$key};
$acro =~ s/((([A-Z])[A-Z]*)[a-z]*)/ &pick($3, $2, $1, ++$off) || $& /eg;
print "$key: $acro";
}
sub pick {
local($letter, $prefix, $oldword, $off) = @_;
$i = 0;
if (length($prefix) > 1 && index($key,$prefix) < 0) {
if ($prefix eq $oldword) {
$prefix = '';
}
else {
$prefix = $letter;
}
}
if (length($prefix) > 1) {
local(*w) = substr($prefix,0,1);
do {
$word = $w[rand @w];
} until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ /^$prefix/i || ++$i > 30;
$word =~ s/^$prefix/$prefix/i;
$word;
}
elsif (length($prefix) == 1) {
local(*w) = $prefix;
do {
$word = $w[rand @w];
} until $word ne $oldword && vec($w{$word}, $off, 1) || ++$i > 10;
$word = "\u\L$word" if $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/;
$word;
}
else {
local(*w) = substr($oldword,0,1);
do {
$word = $w[rand @w];
} until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/ == 0 || ++$i > 30;
$word;
}
}
-- Mark Bradford (bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu) <> To err is human, to moo bovine.
"It's an ill wind that gathers no moss."
after prepro From bradfrd2ncarucaredu Mark Bradford
Subject AstroSpace Frequently Seen Acronyms
Supersedes
Organization LifeForms Unlimited Cephalopods
Lines 509
Expires 19 May 1993 040004 GMT
NNTPPostingHost padthaiaktiscom
Keywords long space astro tla acronyms
XLastUpdated 19921207
Archivename spaceacronyms
Edition 8
Acronym List for sciastro scispace and scispaceshuttle
Edition 8 1992 Dec 7
Last posted 1992 Aug 27
This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing
acronyms in the spacerelated newsgroups If I forgot or botched your
favorite acronym please let me know Also if theres an acronym not
on this list that confuses you drop me a line and if I can figure
it out Ill add it to the list
Note that this is intended to be a reference for frequently seen
acronyms and is most emphatically not encyclopedic If I incorporated
every acronym I ever saw Id soon run out of disk space
The list will be posted at regular intervals every 30 days All
comments regarding it are welcome Im reachable as bradfrd2ncarucaredu
Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for youre on your
own for figuring out what they mean Note also that the total number of
acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list specialpurpose acronyms that
are essentially always explained as theyre introduced are omitted
Further some acronyms stand for more than one thing as of Edition 3 of
the list these acronyms appear on multiple lines unless theyre simply
different ways of referring to the same thing
Thanks to everybody whos sent suggestions since the first version of
the list and especially to Garrett A Wollman wollmangriffinuvmedu
who is maintaining an independent list somewhat more verbose in
character than mine and to Daniel Fischer dfispecklecmpifrbonnmpgde
who is maintaining a truly HUGE list 535 at last count of acronyms and
terms mostly in German which I read fortunately
Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA who sent me a copy of NASA
Reference Publication 1059 Revised _Space Transportation System and
Associated Payloads Glossary Acronyms and Abbreviations_ a truly
mammoth tome almost 300 pages of TLAs
Special Bonus At the end of this posting you will find a perl program
written by none other than Larry Wall whose purpose is to scramble the
acronym list in an entertaining fashion Thanks Larry
AA Astronomy and Astrophysics
AAO AngloAustralian Observatory
AAS American Astronomical Society
AAS American Astronautical Society
AAVSO American Association of Variable Star Observers
ACE Advanced Composition Explorer
ACRV Assured Crew Return Vehicle or Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle
ADFRF AmesDryden Flight Research Facility was DFRF NASA
AGN Active Galactic Nucleus
AGU American Geophysical Union
AIAA American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
AIPS Astronomical Image Processing System
AJ Astronomical Journal
ALEXIS Array of Low Energy Xray Imaging Sensors
ALPO Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers
ALS Advanced Launch System
ANSI American National Standards Institute
AOA Abort Once Around Shuttle abort plan
AOCS Attitude and Orbit Control System
ApJ Astrophysical Journal
APM Attached Pressurized Module aka Columbus
APU Auxiliary Power Unit
ARC Ames Research Center NASA
ARTEMIS Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion
ASA Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ASI Agenzia Spaziale Italiano
ASRM Advanced Solid Rocket Motor
ATDRS Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
ATLAS Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science
ATM Amateur Telescope Maker
ATO Abort To Orbit Shuttle abort plan
AU Astronomical Unit
AURA Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy
AWST Aviation Week and Space Technology aka AvLeak
AXAF Advanced Xray Astrophysics Facility
BATSE Burst And Transient Source Experiment on CGRO
BBXRT BroadBand XRay Telescope ASTRO package
BEM BugEyed Monster
BH Black Hole
BIMA Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array
BNSC British National Space Centre
BTW By The Way
CT Communications Tracking
CCAFS Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
CCD ChargeCoupled Device
CCDS Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
CDROM Compact Disk ReadOnly Memory
CFA Center For Astrophysics
CFC ChloroFluoroCarbon
CFF Columbus Free Flyer
CFHT CanadaFranceHawaii Telescope
CGRO Arthur Holley Compton Gamma Ray Observatory was GRO
CHARA Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy
CIRRIS Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle
CIT Circumstellar Imaging Telescope
CM Command Module Apollo spacecraft
CMCC Central Mission Control Centre ESA
CNES Centre National dEtude Spatiales
CNO CarbonNitrogenOxygen
CNSR Comet Nucleus Sample Return
COBE COsmic Background Explorer
COMPTEL COMPton TELescope on CGRO
COSTAR Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement
CRAF Comet Rendezvous Asteroid Flyby
CRRES Combined Release Radiation Effects Satellite
CSM Command and Service Module Apollo spacecraft
CSTC Consolidated Satellite Test Center USAF
CTIO Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory
DCX Delta Clipper eXperimental
DDCU DCtoDC Converter Unit
DFRF Dryden Flight Research Facility now ADFRF
DMSP Defense Meteorological Satellite Program
DOD Department Of Defense sometimes DoD
DOE Department Of Energy
DOT Department Of Transportation
DSCS Defense Satellite Communications System
DSN Deep Space Network
DSP Defense Support Program USAFNRO
EAFB Edwards Air Force Base
ECS Environmental Control System
EDO Extended Duration Orbiter
EGRET Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope on CGRO
EJASA Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
ELV Expendable Launch Vehicle
EMU Extravehicular Mobility Unit
EOS Earth Observing System
ERS Earth Resources Satellite as in ERS1
ESA European Space Agency
ESO European Southern Observatory
ET Shuttle External Tank
ETLA Extended Three Letter Acronym
ETR Eastern Test Range
EUV Extreme UltraViolet
EUVE Extreme UltraViolet Explorer
EVA ExtraVehicular Activity
FAQ Frequently Asked Questions
FAST Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer
FFT Fast Fourier Transform
FGS Fine Guidance Sensors on HST
FHST Fixed Head Star Trackers on HST
FIR Far InfraRed
FITS Flexible Image Transport System
FOC Faint Object Camera on HST
FOS Faint Object Spectrograph on HST
FRR FlightReadiness Review
FTP File Transfer Protocol
FTS Flight Telerobotic Servicer
FUSE Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer
FWHM Full Width at Half Maximum
FYI For Your Information
GAS GetAway Special
GBT Green Bank Telescope
GCVS General Catalog of Variable Stars
GEM Giotto Extended Mission
GEO Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
GDS Great Dark Spot
GHRS Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph on HST
GIF Graphics Interchange Format
GLOMR Global LowOrbiting Message Relay
GMC Giant Molecular Cloud
GMRT Giant Meterwave Radio Telescope
GMT Greenwich Mean Time also called UT
GOES Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite
GOX Gaseous OXygen
GPC General Purpose Computer
GPS Global Positioning System
GRO Gamma Ray Observatory now CGRO
GRS Gamma Ray Spectrometer on Mars Observer
GRS Great Red Spot
GSC Guide Star Catalog for HST
GSFC Goddard Space Flight Center NASA
GTO Geostationary Transfer Orbit
HAO High Altitude Observatory
HD Henry Draper catalog entry
HEAO High Energy Astronomical Observatory
HeRA Hermes Robotic Arm
HF High Frequency
HGA High Gain Antenna
HLC Heavy Lift Capability
HLV Heavy Lift Vehicle
HMC Halley Multicolor Camera on Giotto
HR HertzsprungRussell diagram
HRI High Resolution Imager on ROSAT
HSP High Speed Photometer on HST
HST Hubble Space Telescope
HUT Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope ASTRO package
HV High Voltage
IAPPP International AmateurProfessional Photoelectric Photometry
IAU International Astronomical Union
IAUC IAU Circular
ICE International Cometary Explorer
IDA International Darksky Association
IDL Interactive Data Language
IGM InterGalactic Medium
IGY International Geophysical Year
IMHO In My Humble Opinion
IOTA InfraredOptical Telescope Array
IOTA International Occultation Timing Association
IPS Inertial Pointing System
IR InfraRed
IRAF Image Reduction and Analysis Facility
IRAS InfraRed Astronomical Satellite
ISAS Institute of Space and Astronautical Science Japan
ISM InterStellar Medium
ISO Infrared Space Observatory
ISO International Standards Organization
ISPM International Solar Polar Mission now Ulysses
ISY International Space Year
IUE International Ultraviolet Explorer
IUS Inertial Upper Stage
JEM Japanese Experiment Module for SSF
JGR Journal of Geophysical Research
JILA Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
JSC Johnson Space Center NASA
KAO Kuiper Airborne Observatory
KPNO Kitt Peak National Observatory
KSC Kennedy Space Center NASA
KTB CretaceousTertiary Boundary from German
LANL Los Alamos National Laboratory
LaRC Langley Research Center NASA
LDEF Long Duration Exposure Facility
LEM Lunar Excursion Module aka LM Apollo spacecraft
LEO Low Earth Orbit
LeRC Lewis Research Center NASA
LEST Large Earthbased Solar Telescope
LFSA List of Frequently Seen Acronyms
LGA Low Gain Antenna
LGM Little Green Men
LH Liquid Hydrogen also LH2 or LHX
LLNL LawrenceLivermore National Laboratory
LM Lunar Module aka LEM Apollo spacecraft
LMC Large Magellanic Cloud
LN2 Liquid N2 Nitrogen
LOX Liquid OXygen
LRB Liquid Rocket Booster
LSR Local Standard of Rest
LTP Lunar Transient Phenomenon
MB Manned Base
MCC Mission Control Center
MECO Main Engine CutOff
MMH MonoMethyl Hydrazine
MMT Multiple Mirror Telescope
MMU Manned Maneuvering Unit
MNRAS Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
MOC Mars Observer Camera on Mars Observer
MOL Manned Orbiting Laboratory
MOLA Mars Observer Laser Altimeter on Mars Observer
MOMV Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle
MOTV Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle
MPC Minor Planets Circular
MRSR Mars Rover and Sample Return
MRSRM Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission
MSFC George C Marshall Space Flight Center NASA
MTC Man Tended Capability
NACA National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics became NASA
NASA National Aeronautics and Space Administration
NASDA NAtional Space Development Agency Japan
NASM National Air and Space Museum
NASP National AeroSpace Plane
NBS National Bureau of Standards now NIST
NDV NASP Derived Vehicle
NERVA Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application
NGC New General Catalog
NICMOS Near Infrared Camera Multi Object Spectrometer HST upgrade
NIMS NearInfrared Mapping Spectrometer on Galileo
NIR Near InfraRed
NIST National Institute for Standards and Technology was NBS
NLDP National Launch Development Program
NOAA National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
NOAO National Optical Astronomy Observatories
NRAO National Radio Astronomy Observatory
NRO National Reconnaissance Office
NS Neutron Star
NSA National Security Agency
NSF National Science Foundation
NSO National Solar Observatory
NSSDC National Space Science Data Center
NTR Nuclear Thermal Rocketry
NTT New Technology Telescope
OAO Orbiting Astronomical Observatory
OCST Office of Commercial Space Transportation
OMB Office of Management and Budget
OMS Orbital Maneuvering System
OPF Orbiter Processing Facility
ORFEUS Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer
OSC Orbital Sciences Corporation
OSCAR Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio
OSSA Office of Space Science and Applications
OSSE Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment on CGRO
OTA Optical Telescope Assembly on HST
OTHB Over The Horizon Backscatter
OTV Orbital Transfer Vehicle
OV Orbital Vehicle
PAM Payload Assist Module
PAMD Payload Assist Module Deltaclass
PI Principal Investigator
PLSS Portable Life Support System
PM Pressurized Module
PMC Permanently Manned Capability
PMIRR Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer on Mars Observer
PMT PhotoMultiplier Tube
PSF Point Spread Function
PSR PulSaR
PV Photovoltaic
PVO Pioneer Venus Orbiter
QSO QuasiStellar Object
RCI Rodent Cage Interface for SLS mission
RCS Reaction Control System
REM Rat Enclosure Module for SLS mission
RF Radio Frequency
RFI Radio Frequency Interference
RIACS Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science
RMS Remote Manipulator System
RNGC Revised New General Catalog
ROSAT ROentgen SATellite
ROUS Rodents Of Unusual Size I dont believe they exist
RSN Real Soon Now
RTG Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
RTLS Return To Launch Site Shuttle abort plan
SAA South Atlantic Anomaly
SAGA Solar Array Gain Augmentation for HST
SAMPEX Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer
SAO Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
SAR Search And Rescue
SAR Synthetic Aperture Radar
SARA Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur
SAREX Search and Rescue Exercise
SAREX Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment
SAS Space Activity Suit
SAS Space Adaptation Syndrome
SAT Synthetic Aperture Telescope
SC SpaceCraft
SCA Shuttle Carrier Aircraft
SCT SchmidtCassegrain Telescope
SDI Strategic Defense Initiative
SDIO Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
SEI Space Exploration Initiative
SEST Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope
SETI Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
SID Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance
SIR Shuttle Imaging Radar
SIRTF Space formerly Shuttle InfraRed Telescope Facility
SL SpaceLab
SLAR SideLooking Airborne Radar
SLC Space Launch Complex
SLS Spacelab Life Sciences
SMC Small Magellanic Cloud
SME Solar Mesosphere Explorer
SMEX SMall EXplorers
SMM Solar Maximum Mission
SN SuperNova eg SN1987A
SNR Signal to Noise Ratio
SNR SuperNova Remnant
SNU Solar Neutrino Units
SOFIA Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy
SOHO SOlar Heliospheric Observatory
SPAN Space Physics and Analysis Network
SPDM Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator
SPOT Systeme Probatoire pour lObservation de la Terre
SPS Solar Power Satellite
SRB Solid Rocket Booster
SRM Solid Rocket Motor
SSF Space Station Fred er Freedom
SSI SolidState Imager on Galileo
SSI Space Studies Institut
SSME Space Shuttle Main Engine
SSPF Space Station Processing Facility
SSRMS Space Station Remote Manipulator System
SST Spectroscopic Survey Telescope
SST SuperSonic Transport
SSTO Single Stage To Orbit
STIS Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer to replace FOC and GHRS
STS Shuttle Transport System or Space Transportation System
STScI Space Telescope Science Institute
SWAS Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
SWF ShortWave Fading
TAL Transatlantic Abort Landing Shuttle abort plan
TAU Thousand Astronomical Unit mission
TCS Thermal Control System
TDRS Tracking and Data Relay Satellite
TDRSS Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System
TES Thermal Emission Spectrometer on Mars Observer
TIROS Television InfraRed Observation Satellite
TLA Three Letter Acronym
TOMS Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer
TPS Thermal Protection System
TSS Tethered Satellite System
UARS Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
UBM Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism
UDMH Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine
UFO Unidentified Flying Object
UGC Uppsala General Catalog
UHF Ultra High Frequency
UIT Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope Astro package
UKST United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope
USAF United States Air Force
USMP United States Microgravity Payload
UT Universal Time aka GMT UTC or Zulu Time
UTC Coordinated Universal Time aka UT
UV UltraViolet
UVS UltraViolet Spectrometer
VAB Vehicle Assembly Building formerly Vertical Assembly Building
VAFB Vandenberg Air Force Base
VEEGA VenusEarthEarth Gravity Assist Galileo flight path
VHF Very High Frequency
VLA Very Large Array
VLBA Very Long Baseline Array
VLBI Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLF Very Low Frequency
VLT Very Large Telescope
VMS Vertical Motion Simulator
VOIR Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar superseded by VRM
VPF Vertical Processing Facility
VRM Venus Radar Mapper now called Magellan
WD White Dwarf
WFPC Wide Field Planetary Camera on HST
WFPCII Replacement for WFPC
WIYN Wisconsin Indiana Yale NOAO telescope
WSMR White Sands Missile Range
WTR Western Test Range
WUPPE Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment Astro package
XMM Xray Multi Mirror
XUV eXtreme UltraViolet
YSO Young Stellar Object
usrbinperl
alt An Acronym Scrambling Program by Larry Wall
THRESHOLD 2
srand
while
next unless ^[AZ]\S
key 1
acrokey
words split\W
unshiftwordskey
off 0
foreach word words
next unless word ^[AZ]
w
vecwword off 6 1 1
foreach letter A Z
w letter
w keys w
if w THRESHOLD
d `egrep ^letter usrdictwords`
chop d
pushw d
foreach key sort keys acro
off 0
acro acrokey
acro s[AZ][AZ][az] pick3 2 1 off eg
print key acro
sub pick
localletter prefix oldword off _
i 0
if lengthprefix 1 indexkeyprefix 0
if prefix eq oldword
prefix
else
prefix letter
if lengthprefix 1
localw substrprefix01
do
word w[rand w]
until word ne oldword word ^prefixi i 30
word s^prefixprefixi
word
elsif lengthprefix 1
localw prefix
do
word w[rand w]
until word ne oldword vecwword off 1 i 10
word \u\Lword if word trazAZ
word
else
localw substroldword01
do
word w[rand w]
until word ne oldword word trazAZ 0 i 30
word
Mark Bradford bradfrd2ncarucaredu To err is human to moo bovine
Its an ill wind that gathers no moss
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Cannanite genocide in the Bible
Lines: 6
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 6
excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern
day Palestinians.
Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!!
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Cannanite genocide in the Bible
Lines 6
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 6
excuse me for my ignorance But I remember reading once that the
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still existsthey are the modern
day Palestinians
Anyone out there with more info please post it
Tammy
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Second Law (was: Albert Sabin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20
Joel Hanes (jjh00@diag.amdahl.com) wrote:
: Mr Connor's assertion that "more complex" == later in paleontology
: is simply incorrect. Many lineages are known in which whole
: structures are lost -- for example, snakes have lost their legs.
: Cave fish have lost their eyes. Some species have almost completely
: lost their males. Kiwis are descended from birds with functional
: wings.
Joel,
The statements I made were illustrative of the inescapably
anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process.
There is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other
than teleological, that is my whole point. Even those who have reason
to believe they understand evolution (biologists for instance) tend to
personify nature and I can't help but wonder if it's because of the
limits of the language or the nature of nature.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Second Law was Albert Sabin
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20
Joel Hanes jjh00diagamdahlcom wrote
Mr Connors assertion that more complex later in paleontology
is simply incorrect Many lineages are known in which whole
structures are lost for example snakes have lost their legs
Cave fish have lost their eyes Some species have almost completely
lost their males Kiwis are descended from birds with functional
wings
Joel
The statements I made were illustrative of the inescapably
anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process
There is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other
than teleological that is my whole point Even those who have reason
to believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend to
personify nature and I cant help but wonder if its because of the
limits of the language or the nature of nature
Bill
preprocess doc From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Keith IS a relativist!
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 25
In article <1pigidINNsot@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
> Not so. If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
> blame the tiger?
AHA! He admits it! He IS a moral relativist!
Keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'I think there is an absolute
morality' blurb a few weeks ago.
> keith
The Desert Brat
--
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia, ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au T.S.A.K.C. \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions. bb bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com | - Alice In Chains |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
after prepro From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Keith IS a relativist
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 25
In article 1pigidINNsotgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
Not so If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger
AHA He admits it He IS a moral relativist
Keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into its cage so to speak youd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your I think there is an absolute
morality blurb a few weeks ago
keith
The Desert Brat
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau TSAKC \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions bb bb
It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we Gods name is smack
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some
produce it Jim Perry perrydsinccom Alice In Chains
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Blow up space station, easy way to do it.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.184527.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
This might a real wierd idea or maybe not..
I have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them
that then drys and makes hard walls...
Why not do the same thing for a space station..
Fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such, blow up the baloons,
spin then around (I know a problem in micro gravity) let them dry/cure/harden?
and cut a hole for the docking/attaching ring and bingo a space station..
Of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation
protective covering/heat shield(?) and the material used to make the wals would
have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paint/covering of
the inner wall would have to be human safe.. Maybe a special congrete or maybe
the same material as makes caplets but with some changes (saw where someone
instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture, got a mix that was just as
strong as congret but easier to carry around and such..)
Sorry for any spelling errors, I missed school today.. (grin)..
Why musta space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be
confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not
earth, why be limited by earth based ideas??
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
going crazy in Nome Alaska, break up is here..
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Blow up space station easy way to do it
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51845271
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
This might a real wierd idea or maybe not
I have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them
that then drys and makes hard walls
Why not do the same thing for a space station
Fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such blow up the baloons
spin then around I know a problem in micro gravity let them drycureharden
and cut a hole for the dockingattaching ring and bingo a space station
Of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation
protective coveringheat shield and the material used to make the wals would
have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paintcovering of
the inner wall would have to be human safe Maybe a special congrete or maybe
the same material as makes caplets but with some changes saw where someone
instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture got a mix that was just as
strong as congret but easier to carry around and such
Sorry for any spelling errors I missed school today grin
Why musta space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be
confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not
earth why be limited by earth based ideas
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
going crazy in Nome Alaska break up is here
preprocess doc Subject: DC-X/Y/1 question
From: kkobayas@husc8.harvard.edu (Ken Kobayashi)
Keywords: DC-X
Nntp-Posting-Host: husc8.harvard.edu
Lines: 17
I've been following discussions about the Delta Clipper program, and I
have one small question. As I understand it, the DC-X derived orbital
vehicle (DC-Y & 1) is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways, not
completely nose-first. So why is the DC-Y look symmetric in every drawing
I've seen? I would think that an asymmetric design, sort of like
wingless Orbiter, may work better, since less shielding is required on the
top side. Can anybody explain?
- Ken Kobayashi
kkobayas@husc.harvard.edu
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Kobayashi |
kkobayas@husc.harvard.edu | "There is no final frontier." - IBM ad
after prepro Subject DCXY1 question
From kkobayashusc8harvardedu Ken Kobayashi
Keywords DCX
NntpPostingHost husc8harvardedu
Lines 17
Ive been following discussions about the Delta Clipper program and I
have one small question As I understand it the DCX derived orbital
vehicle DCY 1 is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways not
completely nosefirst So why is the DCY look symmetric in every drawing
Ive seen I would think that an asymmetric design sort of like
wingless Orbiter may work better since less shielding is required on the
top side Can anybody explain
Ken Kobayashi
kkobayashuscharvardedu
Ken Kobayashi
kkobayashuscharvardedu There is no final frontier IBM ad
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 13
In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
>of a private Titan pad?
You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
no new launcher development. If you assume new launcher development, with
lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
build something HLV-sized anyway.
Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans. It
doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
would have far better cost-effectiveness.
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 13
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway
Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Metric vs English
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr6.131900.8407
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 31
In <1993Apr5.195215.16833@pixel.kodak.com> dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones) writes:
>Keith Mancus (mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov) wrote:
>> Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Dunn) writes:
>> > SI neatly separates the concepts of "mass", "force" and "weight"
>> > which have gotten horribly tangled up in the US system.
>>
>> This is not a problem with English units. A pound is defined to
>> be a unit of force, period. There is a perfectly good unit called
>> the slug, which is the mass of an object weighing 32.2 lbs at sea level.
>> (g = 32.2 ft/sec^2, of course.)
>>
>American Military English units, perhaps. Us real English types were once
>taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force (being that force that
>causes 1 pound to accelerate at 1 ft.s-2). We had a rare olde tyme doing
>our exams in those units and metric as well.
American, perhaps, but nothing military about it. I learned (mostly)
slugs when we talked English units in high school physics and while
the teacher was an ex-Navy fighter jock the book certainly wasn't
produced by the military.
[Poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out
funny; sort of the same reason proponents of SI give for using that.]
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Metric vs English
ArticleID mksol1993Apr61319008407
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 31
In 1993Apr519521516833pixelkodakcom djekcolorssdkodakcom Dave Jones writes
Keith Mancus mancussweetpeajscnasagov wrote
Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca Bruce Dunn writes
SI neatly separates the concepts of mass force and weight
which have gotten horribly tangled up in the US system
This is not a problem with English units A pound is defined to
be a unit of force period There is a perfectly good unit called
the slug which is the mass of an object weighing 322 lbs at sea level
g 322 ftsec^2 of course
American Military English units perhaps Us real English types were once
taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force being that force that
causes 1 pound to accelerate at 1 fts2 We had a rare olde tyme doing
our exams in those units and metric as well
American perhaps but nothing military about it I learned mostly
slugs when we talked English units in high school physics and while
the teacher was an exNavy fighter jock the book certainly wasnt
produced by the military
[Poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out
funny sort of the same reason proponents of SI give for using that]
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
<C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Lines: 15
In <C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Greg Hennessy writes:
>In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>#The better question should be.
>#Why not transfer O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
>#to support these kind of ongoing science missions.
>
>Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
>changing them to a seperate agency help anything?
>
How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Nicholls ... : Vidi
nicho@vnet.ibm.com or : Vici
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni
after prepro From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
Lines 15
In Greg Hennessy writes
In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The better question should be
Why not transfer OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions
Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything
How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational
Greg Nicholls Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk Veni
preprocess doc Subject: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Lines: 55
In article <2942949719.2.p00261@psilink.com>, "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>DATE: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500
>>FROM: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>>
>>
>>> > 3. Can god uncreate itself?
>>>
>>> No. For if He did, He would violate His own nature which He cannot do.
>>> It is God's nature to Exist. He is, after all, the "I AM" which is
>>> a statement of His inherent Existence. He is existence itself.
>>> Existence cannot "not-exist".
>>
>>Then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent.
>>
What do you mean by omnipotent here? Do you mean by "omnipotent"
that God should be able to do anything/everything? This creates
a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless.
To be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and
not "being able to do anything/everything".
Let me illustrate by analogy.
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth. Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations. The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit. The US would be militarily "omnipotent".
But suppose further that the US holds to a doctrine/philosophy of not
interfering in the internal affairs of any nation, such as the current
civil war in the former Yugoslavian states.
Technically (in this scenario) the US would have the power to
unilaterally go into Yugoslavia and straighten out the mess. But
effectively the US could not intervene without violating its own policy
of non-interference. If the policy of non-interference were held to
strongly enough, then there would never be a question that it would
ever be violated. Effectively, the US would be limited in what it
could actually do, although it had the power to do "whatever it wanted".
The US would simply "never want to interfere" for such an idea would
be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate
non-interference policy.
God is effectively limited in the same sense. He is all powerful, but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He, Himself is.
I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning
omnipotence.
Regards,
Jim B.
after prepro Subject Omnipotence was Re Speculations
From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Lines 55
In article 29429497192p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
DATE Fri 2 Apr 1993 230222 0500
FROM Nanci Ann Miller
3 Can god uncreate itself
No For if He did He would violate His own nature which He cannot do
It is Gods nature to Exist He is after all the I AM which is
a statement of His inherent Existence He is existence itself
Existence cannot notexist
Then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent
What do you mean by omnipotent here Do you mean by omnipotent
that God should be able to do anythingeverything This creates
a selfcontradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless
To be descriptive omnipotence must mean being allpowerful and
not being able to do anythingeverything
Let me illustrate by analogy
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit The US would be militarily omnipotent
But suppose further that the US holds to a doctrinephilosophy of not
interfering in the internal affairs of any nation such as the current
civil war in the former Yugoslavian states
Technically in this scenario the US would have the power to
unilaterally go into Yugoslavia and straighten out the mess But
effectively the US could not intervene without violating its own policy
of noninterference If the policy of noninterference were held to
strongly enough then there would never be a question that it would
ever be violated Effectively the US would be limited in what it
could actually do although it had the power to do whatever it wanted
The US would simply never want to interfere for such an idea would
be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate
noninterference policy
God is effectively limited in the same sense He is all powerful but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He Himself is
I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning
omnipotence
Regards
Jim B
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr15.081303.16532@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
|>
|> Leonard, I'll give you an example of this....
|>
|> My father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds
|> and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised
|> 60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and
|> Muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after
|> paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
|> to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this
|> is an example of a Muslim community helping one another, why did they help
|> because of their common identity as Muslims. In turn my father has helped
|> with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay
|> and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
|> fortunate in the community.
Sorry. Wrong. This is how banks got started in the first place.
Sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone
who eventually goes broke, and then they will realise that they
havn't been managing risk very well. Then they will ask themselves
what it is that they need to quantify risk, and to persuade borrowers
not to take on greater loans than they can carry. And since they
don't all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the
money, some of them will specialise in that.
Then they'll reinvent interest, but like good Muslims, they'll call
it something else.
|>
|> The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight!
|> iThat is the beauty of Islam.
Riiiight. That's why John Major opened a new government department
a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business. Because
they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization sgi
Lines 37
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr1508130316532CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
Leonard Ill give you an example of this
My father recently bought a business the business price was 150000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised
60000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and
Muslims he knew 50000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community
Sorry Wrong This is how banks got started in the first place
Sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone
who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they
havnt been managing risk very well Then they will ask themselves
what it is that they need to quantify risk and to persuade borrowers
not to take on greater loans than they can carry And since they
dont all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the
money some of them will specialise in that
Then theyll reinvent interest but like good Muslims theyll call
it something else
The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight
iThat is the beauty of Islam
Riiiight Thats why John Major opened a new government department
a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business Because
they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar
jon
preprocess doc From: u1452@penelope.sdsc.edu (Jeff Bytof - SIO)
Subject: End of the Space Age?
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center @ UCSD
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: penelope.sdsc.edu
We are not at the end of the Space Age, but only at the end of Its
beginning.
That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation,
or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable; however,
technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for
possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to
many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the
cost of future space operations.
The Dream is Alive and Well.
-Jeff Bytof
member, technical staff
Institute for Remote Exploration
after prepro From u1452penelopesdscedu Jeff Bytof SIO
Subject End of the Space Age
Organization San Diego Supercomputer Center UCSD
Lines 16
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost penelopesdscedu
We are not at the end of the Space Age but only at the end of Its
beginning
That space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation
or a focus of American cultural attention is certainly debatable however
technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for
possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to
many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the
cost of future space operations
The Dream is Alive and Well
Jeff Bytof
member technical staff
Institute for Remote Exploration
preprocess doc From: games@max.u.washington.edu
Subject: Aerospace companies cooperate in reusable vehicle market.
Article-I.D.: max.1993Apr6.121843.1
Distribution: world
Lines: 34
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.u.washington.edu
What would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 (Martin
Mariatta, Boeing, Mcdonell Douglas, General Dynamics, Lockheed, Rockwell)
getting together, and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market
price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles, and spending say
$3million to do that. Recognizing that most of the military requirements
for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere (say, has the shuttle
ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability? You get the idea, figure
out how many, how often, where to, etc...)
Then taking this data, and forming a sematech type company (bad example, I
know... but at least its an example...) To develop between 3 and 5 craft
designs. Then to take all of those designs, and figure out EXACTLY what
the technologies are, and demonstrate those technologies, in order to
eliminate designs that can't be built today. And lets say that this
portion again funded by the GOV cost about $20 million.
And from here all of these companies went their separate ways, with the
intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall
street, and saying "I want to build this vehicle, and here are the numbers
that show %20 ROI, fund me...)
Now many of you think that this is a joke, but I have it on good authority that
just this project is shaping up in the background. It seems that the aerospace
companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things
ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled (NASP, NLS,
ALS, DCY?, etc...) They need to work more in the japaneese, and european
spirit of initial cooperation. They have also learned that design requirements
that are phony (I.E. some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be)
ends up getting chopped up in congress, because it is not a REAL requirement.
Any feedback?
John.
after prepro From gamesmaxuwashingtonedu
Subject Aerospace companies cooperate in reusable vehicle market
ArticleID max1993Apr61218431
Distribution world
Lines 34
NNTPPostingHost maxuwashingtonedu
What would all of you out there in net land think of the big 6 Martin
Mariatta Boeing Mcdonell Douglas General Dynamics Lockheed Rockwell
getting together and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market
price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles and spending say
3million to do that Recognizing that most of the military requirements
for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere say has the shuttle
ever really used that 1200mi crossrange capability You get the idea figure
out how many how often where to etc
Then taking this data and forming a sematech type company bad example I
know but at least its an example To develop between 3 and 5 craft
designs Then to take all of those designs and figure out EXACTLY what
the technologies are and demonstrate those technologies in order to
eliminate designs that cant be built today And lets say that this
portion again funded by the GOV cost about 20 million
And from here all of these companies went their separate ways with the
intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall
street and saying I want to build this vehicle and here are the numbers
that show 20 ROI fund me
Now many of you think that this is a joke but I have it on good authority that
just this project is shaping up in the background It seems that the aerospace
companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things
ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled NASP NLS
ALS DCY etc They need to work more in the japaneese and european
spirit of initial cooperation They have also learned that design requirements
that are phony IE some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be
ends up getting chopped up in congress because it is not a REAL requirement
Any feedback
John
preprocess doc From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: dsi.1pq6skINNhi4
Distribution: usa
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com
In article <1993Apr3.221101.25314@midway.uchicago.edu> shou@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1pi0dhINN8ub@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>Bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational; it
>>is other people who determine that by examining their arguments.
>[...]
>No! I expected it! You've set yourself up a wonderful little
>world where a bigot is whomever you say it is. This is very
>comfortable for you--imagine, never having to entertain an
>argument against your belief system. Simply accuse the person
>making of being a bigot.
Well, this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over
into alt.atheism, where we spend most of our time entertaining
arguments against our belief system, without resorting to accusing
others of bigotry. It's somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry
happens in this instance to have originated in rec.scouting, since I
always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity. I
understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who
happen to be of a different race, religion, ethnic background, sex, or
other inconsequential characteristics. All the evidence I've seen
indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are
exactly such inconsequential characteristics. Thus, pending further
evidence, I conclude that those who show prejudice against such people
are bigots, and organizations that exclude such people are
discriminatory.
--
Jim Perry perry@dsinc.com Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions. For a nominal fee, they can be yours.
after prepro From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID dsi1pq6skINNhi4
Distribution usa
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom
In article 1993Apr322110125314midwayuchicagoedu shoumidwayuchicagoedu writes
In article 1pi0dhINN8ubdsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational it
is other people who determine that by examining their arguments
[]
No I expected it Youve set yourself up a wonderful little
world where a bigot is whomever you say it is This is very
comfortable for youimagine never having to entertain an
argument against your belief system Simply accuse the person
making of being a bigot
Well this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over
into altatheism where we spend most of our time entertaining
arguments against our belief system without resorting to accusing
others of bigotry Its somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry
happens in this instance to have originated in recscouting since I
always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity I
understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who
happen to be of a different race religion ethnic background sex or
other inconsequential characteristics All the evidence Ive seen
indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are
exactly such inconsequential characteristics Thus pending further
evidence I conclude that those who show prejudice against such people
are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are
discriminatory
Jim Perry perrydsinccom Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions For a nominal fee they can be yours
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 22
In article <C5LDoD.7pC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu writes:
>allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
>down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
>expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
>originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
>was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
>deceleration.
Actually, Hiten wasn't originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all,
so it indeed didn't have much fuel on hand. The lunar-orbit mission was
an afterthought, after Hagoromo (a tiny subsatellite deployed by Hiten
during a lunar flyby) had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion
into lunar orbit couldn't be positively confirmed.
It should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages. It takes
a long time, and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit.
If you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit, you do have
to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel, although it is reduced from
what you'd need for the brute-force approach.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 22
In article rlsuihepahepuiucedu writes
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration
Actually Hiten wasnt originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all
so it indeed didnt have much fuel on hand The lunarorbit mission was
an afterthought after Hagoromo a tiny subsatellite deployed by Hiten
during a lunar flyby had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion
into lunar orbit couldnt be positively confirmed
It should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages It takes
a long time and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit
If you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit you do have
to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel although it is reduced from
what youd need for the bruteforce approach
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
Lines: 91
In <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>>Level 5? Out of how many? ...
>>
>>... Also keep in mind that it was
>>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>>did the whole process by hand...
>
>I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
>software-development process *before* the standdown. Fred is basically
>correct: no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
>care. But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
>the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people. (He
>also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
>pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)
>
>Among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things
>right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure
>during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure.
>As a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted
>on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero.
>
>As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
>Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
>experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
>(None of the experimenters could afford it.)
>--
>All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
> - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
>
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: Wingert@VNET.IBM.com (Bret Wingert)
<C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu>
In <C5uBn5.tz@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>>Level 5? Out of how many? ...
>>
>>... Also keep in mind that it was
>>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>>did the whole process by hand...
>
>I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
>software-development process *before* the standdown. Fred is basically
>correct: no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
>care. But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
>the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people. (He
>also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
>pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)
>
>As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
>Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
>experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
========================================================================
A couple of points on this thread.
1. We have been using our processes since way before Challenger. Challenger
in and of it self did not uncover flaws.
2. What Mr. Spencer says is by and large true. We have a process that is
not dependent on "sophisticated tools" (CASE tools?). However, tools
cannot fix a bad process. Also, tool support for HAL/S (the Shuttle
Language) is somewhat limited.
3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.
4. Feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info
on our software development process.
Bret Wingert
(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077
Bret Wingert
(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077
after prepro From WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert
Subject Re Level 5
Organization IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
Lines 91
In Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5
Level 5 Out of how many
Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand
I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown Fred is basically
correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet
Among other things the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major preflight simulations and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an inflight failure
As a result the number of majorsimulation failures could be counted
on one hand and the number of inflight failures was zero
As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
None of the experimenters could afford it
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom WingertVNETIBMcom Bret Wingert
In Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5
Level 5 Out of how many
Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand
I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown Fred is basically
correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet
As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
A couple of points on this thread
1 We have been using our processes since way before Challenger Challenger
in and of it self did not uncover flaws
2 What Mr Spencer says is by and large true We have a process that is
not dependent on sophisticated tools CASE tools However tools
cannot fix a bad process Also tool support for HALS the Shuttle
Language is somewhat limited
3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA
4 Feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info
on our software development process
Bret Wingert
7132827534
FAX 7132828077
Bret Wingert
7132827534
FAX 7132828077
preprocess doc From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 40
timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes: >
>OK, you have disproved one thing, but you failed to "nail" me.
>
>See, nowhere in my post did I claim that something _must_ be believed in. Here
>are the three possibilities:
>
> 1) God exists.
> 2) God does not exist.
> 3) I don't know.
>
>My attack was on strong atheism, (2). Since I am (3), I guess by what you said
>below that makes me a weak atheist.
[snip]
>First of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy. Why not try to be more honest
>and include my sentence afterwards that
Honest, it just ended like that, I swear!
Hmmmm...I recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and
rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls
people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr
"Clam" Bake Timmons = Bill "Shit Stirrer Connor"
Q.E.D.
Whirr click whirr...Frank O'Dwyer might also be contained
in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr
"Killfile" Keith Allen Schneider = Frank "Closet Theist" O'Dwyer =
the mind reels. Maybe they're all Bobby Mozumder.
--
Maddi Hausmann madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 408/428-3553
Kids, please don't try this at home. Remember, I post professionally.
after prepro From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 40
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
OK you have disproved one thing but you failed to nail me
See nowhere in my post did I claim that something _must_ be believed in Here
are the three possibilities
1 God exists
2 God does not exist
3 I dont know
My attack was on strong atheism 2 Since I am 3 I guess by what you said
below that makes me a weak atheist
[snip]
First of all you seem to be a reasonable guy Why not try to be more honest
and include my sentence afterwards that
Honest it just ended like that I swear
HmmmmI recognize the warning signsalternating polite and
rudecoming into newsgroup with huge chip on shouldercalls
people names and then makes nicewhirrrclickwhirrr
Clam Bake Timmons Bill Shit Stirrer Connor
QED
Whirr click whirrFrank ODwyer might also be contained
in that shellpop stack to determinewhirrclickwhirr
Killfile Keith Allen Schneider Frank Closet Theist ODwyer
the mind reels Maybe theyre all Bobby Mozumder
Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 4084283553
Kids please dont try this at home Remember I post professionally
preprocess doc Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 46
In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu) snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
)
)That's your mistake. It would be better for the children if the mother
)raised the child.
)
)One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
)because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men.
)Compare that with how homos are raised. Do a study and you will get my
)point.
)
)But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
)stayed home and raised the child. That is something false made up by
)feminists that seek a status above men. You do not recognize the fact
)that men and women have natural differences. Not just physically, but
)mentally also.
) [...]
)Your logic. I didn't say americans were the cause of worlds problems, I
)said atheists.
) [...]
)Becuase they have no code of ethics to follow, which means that atheists
)can do whatever they want which they feel is right. Something totally
)based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational
)thinking.
) [...]
)Yeah. I didn't say that all atheists are bad, but that they could be
)bad or good, with nothing to define bad or good.
)
Awright! Bobby's back, in all of his shit-for-brains glory. Just
when I thought he'd turned the corner of progress, his Thorazine
prescription runs out.
I'd put him in my kill file, but man, this is good stuff. I wish
I had his staying power.
Fortunately, I learned not to take him too seriously long,long,long
ago.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro Subject Re islamic authority over women
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 46
In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
Thats your mistake It would be better for the children if the mother
raised the child
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
because of the love of their mom It makes for more virile men
Compare that with how homos are raised Do a study and you will get my
point
But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
stayed home and raised the child That is something false made up by
feminists that seek a status above men You do not recognize the fact
that men and women have natural differences Not just physically but
mentally also
[]
Your logic I didnt say americans were the cause of worlds problems I
said atheists
[]
Becuase they have no code of ethics to follow which means that atheists
can do whatever they want which they feel is right Something totally
based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational
thinking
[]
Yeah I didnt say that all atheists are bad but that they could be
bad or good with nothing to define bad or good
Awright Bobbys back in all of his shitforbrains glory Just
when I thought hed turned the corner of progress his Thorazine
prescription runs out
Id put him in my kill file but man this is good stuff I wish
I had his staying power
Fortunately I learned not to take him too seriously longlonglong
ago
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr10.123858.25059@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
>> Khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of
>>British "leaders", so what?
>>THE QUR'AN is the basis of judgement. Khomenei was clearly a heretic
>>by the standards of the Qur'an. End of story.
>Could you be a little more specific as to exactly why Khomanei was a
>heretic and a jerk as judged by the Koran. I have no liking for the
>guy, but as far as I know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings
>of the Koran, or at least so I'm told by several Iranian research
>students that I share an office with.
>It is easy and convenient for you to denounce him. But I have the
>feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you
>suggest.
I have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again. Khomeini put a
price on the head of someone in another country, this makes him a jerk
as well as an international outlaw. Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders (the Twelve Imams) who
are free of error or sin. This makes him a heretic. In the Qur'an
Muhammad is chastised for error directly by God; the Qur'an says that
Muhammad is the greatest example of proper Islamic behavior; thus
no muslim is free from error.
>As usual there seems to be almost as many Islamic viewpoints as there
>are Muslims.
Perhaps it seems so to you, but this is hardly the case. There is
widespread agreement about matters of Islam. There certainly are
many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly Islamic in
and of themselves, but this is so for any large group of people
under the same name.
>It all comes back to the Koran being so imprecise in its wording.
The Qur'an is not particularly imprecise in wording, though it is true
that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of
many words. However, as an entire text the Qur'an makes its meanings
precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come
to agreement about them.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 50
In article 1993Apr1012385825059bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote
Khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of
British leaders so what
THE QURAN is the basis of judgement Khomenei was clearly a heretic
by the standards of the Quran End of story
Could you be a little more specific as to exactly why Khomanei was a
heretic and a jerk as judged by the Koran I have no liking for the
guy but as far as I know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings
of the Koran or at least so Im told by several Iranian research
students that I share an office with
It is easy and convenient for you to denounce him But I have the
feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you
suggest
I have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again Khomeini put a
price on the head of someone in another country this makes him a jerk
as well as an international outlaw Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders the Twelve Imams who
are free of error or sin This makes him a heretic In the Quran
Muhammad is chastised for error directly by God the Quran says that
Muhammad is the greatest example of proper Islamic behavior thus
no muslim is free from error
As usual there seems to be almost as many Islamic viewpoints as there
are Muslims
Perhaps it seems so to you but this is hardly the case There is
widespread agreement about matters of Islam There certainly are
many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly Islamic in
and of themselves but this is so for any large group of people
under the same name
It all comes back to the Koran being so imprecise in its wording
The Quran is not particularly imprecise in wording though it is true
that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of
many words However as an entire text the Quran makes its meanings
precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come
to agreement about them
Gregg
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 27
In article <1qlb7oINN684@shelley.u.washington.edu>
jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan) writes:
>20:52 P.S.T. I come to my senses and accept the all-knowing
>wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah. Not only that, but Allah
>himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. Allah rolls a
>few bones and we get down. Then Allah gets out the Crisco, bends
>over, and invites me to take a spin around the block. Wow.
>20:56 P.S.T. I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a
>commitment than I'm ready for, so I say "Man, I've got some
>programming to do. Gotta go. I'll call you."
>20:59 P.S.T Thinking it over, I renounce Islam.
What loyalty!
Jim, it seems you've been reading a little too much Russell Hoban
lately. As Hemingway said, my imitators always imitate the _bad_
aspects of my writing. Hoban would, no doubt, say the same here.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 27
In article 1qlb7oINN684shelleyuwashingtonedu
jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan writes
2052 PST I come to my senses and accept the allknowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah Not only that but Allah
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down Then Allah gets out the Crisco bends
over and invites me to take a spin around the block Wow
2056 PST I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a
commitment than Im ready for so I say Man Ive got some
programming to do Gotta go Ill call you
2059 PST Thinking it over I renounce Islam
What loyalty
Jim it seems youve been reading a little too much Russell Hoban
lately As Hemingway said my imitators always imitate the _bad_
aspects of my writing Hoban would no doubt say the same here
Gregg
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 40
In article <1993Apr15.163317.20805@cs.nott.ac.uk> eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (C.Wainwright) writes:
>In article <115437@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>|> The authorities I am referring to is the authority of the world
>|> Islamic community over itself. My point was simply that Islamic
>|> law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that
>|> Islamic law may not be enforcable in non-Islamic countries.
>Muslims residing in the UK may decide to be 'tried' (or whatever) by the
>Islamic community, but their rulings have no legal consequences in these
>isles.
It's not really their _decision_ to be tried. The rulings _do_ have
legal consequences, but only in Islamic law and not in UK law (this
should be obvious). Enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making
of a judgment. Take for example the judgments of the World Court. This
is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no
physical or economic effect but which _are_ important despite the fact
that their judgments cannot be enforced
>The person may be excommunicated (or similar) but if it decided to
>mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking UK laws
>itself, and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution.
Of course, have you read any of this thread before this post?
> To ignore
>the country's laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous
>to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion.
Of course, it is a sort of anarchism. Anarchism is explicitly against
Islam. Thank you for your well reasoned response, but it is beside the
points I've been making in this thread.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution worldpublic
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 40
In article 1993Apr1516331720805csnottacuk eczcawmipsnottacuk CWainwright writes
In article 115437buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
The authorities I am referring to is the authority of the world
Islamic community over itself My point was simply that Islamic
law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that
Islamic law may not be enforcable in nonIslamic countries
Muslims residing in the UK may decide to be tried or whatever by the
Islamic community but their rulings have no legal consequences in these
isles
Its not really their _decision_ to be tried The rulings _do_ have
legal consequences but only in Islamic law and not in UK law this
should be obvious Enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making
of a judgment Take for example the judgments of the World Court This
is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no
physical or economic effect but which _are_ important despite the fact
that their judgments cannot be enforced
The person may be excommunicated or similar but if it decided to
mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking UK laws
itself and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution
Of course have you read any of this thread before this post
To ignore
the countrys laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous
to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion
Of course it is a sort of anarchism Anarchism is explicitly against
Islam Thank you for your well reasoned response but it is beside the
points Ive been making in this thread
Gregg
preprocess doc From: ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu (George Hastings)
Subject: Re: Soviet space book
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Richmond)
Lines: 13
I have received my copies of Cosmonautics 1990 and
Cosmonautics 1991, as well as Soviet Space 1990 and Space
Station [MIR] Handbook from Aerospace Ambassadors with no
problem.
I'm getting ready to FAX them some material in Huntsville,
and I'll include a printout of your inquiry.
____________________________________________________________
| George Hastings ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu |
| Space Science Teacher 72407.22@compuserve.com | If it's not
| Mathematics & Science Center STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533 | FUN, it's
| 2304 Hartman Street OFFICE: 804-343-6525 | probably not
| Richmond, VA 23223 FAX: 804-343-6529 | SCIENCE!
------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu George Hastings
Subject Re Soviet space book
Organization Virginias Public Education Network Richmond
Lines 13
I have received my copies of Cosmonautics 1990 and
Cosmonautics 1991 as well as Soviet Space 1990 and Space
Station [MIR] Handbook from Aerospace Ambassadors with no
problem
Im getting ready to FAX them some material in Huntsville
and Ill include a printout of your inquiry
____________________________________________________________
George Hastings ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu
Space Science Teacher 7240722compuservecom If its not
Mathematics Science Center STAREACH BBS 8043436533 FUN its
2304 Hartman Street OFFICE 8043436525 probably not
Richmond VA 23223 FAX 8043436529 SCIENCE
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql667INN54a@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >I don't expect the lion to know, or not know anything of the kind.
|> >In fact, I don't have any evidence that lions ever consider such
|> >issues.
|> >And that, of course, is why I don't think you can assign moral
|> >significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions.
|>
|> What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
|> That is, it doesn't take much work to be moral, but it certainly does to
|> be immoral (in some cases).
That's the craziest thing I ever heard. Are you serious?
"it doesn't take much work to be moral?"
|> Also, I've said that morality is a remnant of evolution.
Really? And that's why people discuss morality on a daily basis?
Because it's a kind of evolutionary hangover, like your little toe?
|> Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal
|> kingdom.
This must be some novel use of the phrase "based on" with which I
am not sufficiently familiar. What do you mean by "based on" and
what is the significance of it for your argument?
|>
|> >>So you are basically saying that you think a "moral" is an undefinable
|> >>term, and that "moral systems" don't exist? If we can't agree on a
|> >>definition of these terms, then how can we hope to discuss them?
|> >
|> >No, it's perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
|> >is in *my* system, but that I can't speak for other people.
|>
|> But, this doesn't get us anywhere. Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
|> unless you can share them or discuss them...
Well, we can. What would you like to know about my particular moral
beliefs?
If you raise a topic I've never considered, I'll be quite happy to
invent a moral belief out of thin air.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I dont expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind
In fact I dont have any evidence that lions ever consider such
issues
And that of course is why I dont think you can assign moral
significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions
What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior
That is it doesnt take much work to be moral but it certainly does to
be immoral in some cases
Thats the craziest thing I ever heard Are you serious
it doesnt take much work to be moral
Also Ive said that morality is a remnant of evolution
Really And thats why people discuss morality on a daily basis
Because its a kind of evolutionary hangover like your little toe
Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal
kingdom
This must be some novel use of the phrase based on with which I
am not sufficiently familiar What do you mean by based on and
what is the significance of it for your argument
So you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable
term and that moral systems dont exist If we cant agree on a
definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them
No its perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
is in my system but that I cant speak for other people
But this doesnt get us anywhere Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them
Well we can What would you like to know about my particular moral
beliefs
If you raise a topic Ive never considered Ill be quite happy to
invent a moral belief out of thin air
jon
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 12/15 - Controversial Questions
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.controversy_733694426
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:00:26 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 252
Supersedes: <controversy_730956589@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Archive-name: space/controversy
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:06 $
CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS
These issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being
offered. The summaries below attempt to represent the position on which
much of the net community has settled. Please DON'T bring them up again
unless there's something truly new to be discussed. The net can't set
public policy, that's what your representatives are for.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SATURN V PLANS
Despite a widespread belief to the contrary, the Saturn V blueprints
have not been lost. They are kept at Marshall Space Flight Center on
microfilm.
The problem in re-creating the Saturn V is not finding the drawings, it
is finding vendors who can supply mid-1960's vintage hardware (like
guidance system components), and the fact that the launch pads and VAB
have been converted to Space Shuttle use, so you have no place to launch
from.
By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re-modify
the launch pads, you may as well have started from scratch with a clean
sheet design.
WHY DATA FROM SPACE MISSIONS ISN'T IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE
Investigators associated with NASA missions are allowed exclusive access
for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an
opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being
"scooped" by people uninvolved in the mission. However, NASA frequently
releases examples (in non-digital form, e.g. photos) to the public early
in a mission.
RISKS OF NUCLEAR (RTG) POWER SOURCES FOR SPACE PROBES
There has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to
block the Galileo and Ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium
thermal sources being dangerous. Numerous studies claim that even in
worst-case scenarios (shuttle explosion during launch, or accidental
reentry at interplanetary velocities), the risks are extremely small.
Two interesting data points are (1) The May 1968 loss of two SNAP 19B2
RTGs, which landed intact in the Pacific Ocean after a Nimbus B weather
satellite failed to reach orbit. The fuel was recovered after 5 months
with no release of plutonium. (2) In April 1970, the Apollo 13 lunar
module reentered the atmosphere and its SNAP 27 RTG heat source, which
was jettisoned, fell intact into the 20,000 feet deep Tonga Trench in
the Pacific Ocean. The corrosion resistant materials of the RTG are
expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to 10
half-lives of the Pu-238 fuel or about 870 years [DOE 1980].
To make your own informed judgement, some references you may wish to
pursue are:
A good review of the technical facts and issues is given by Daniel
Salisbury in "Radiation Risk and Planetary Exploration-- The RTG
Controversy," *Planetary Report*, May-June 1987, pages 3-7. Another good
article, which also reviews the events preceding Galileo's launch,
"Showdown at Pad 39-B," by Robert G. Nichols, appeared in the November
1989 issue of *Ad Astra*. (Both magazines are published by pro-space
organizations, the Planetary Society and the National Space Society
respectively.)
Gordon L Chipman, Jr., "Advanced Space Nuclear Systems" (AAS 82-261), in
*Developing the Space Frontier*, edited by Albert Naumann and Grover
Alexander, Univelt, 1983, p. 193-213.
"Hazards from Plutonium Toxicity", by Bernard L. Cohen, Health Physics,
Vol 32 (may) 1977, page 359-379.
NUS Corporation, Safety Status Report for the Ulysses Mission: Risk
Analysis (Book 1). Document number is NUS 5235; there is no GPO #;
published Jan 31, 1990.
NASA Office of Space Science and Applications, *Final Environmental
Impact Statement for the Ulysses Mission (Tier 2)*, (no serial number or
GPO number, but probably available from NTIS or NASA) June 1990.
[DOE 1980] U.S. Department of Energy, *Transuranic Elements in the
Environment*, Wayne C. Hanson, editor; DOE Document No. DOE/TIC-22800;
Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., April 1980.)
IMPACT OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON THE OZONE LAYER
From time to time, claims are made that chemicals released from
the Space Shuttle's Solid Rocket Boosters (SRBs) are responsible
for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer. Studies
indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact, both in
absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources. The
remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted
study, Charles Jackman.
The atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the
stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups, and was
organized by Dr. Michael Prather, NASA/Goddard Institute for Space
Studies. The three groups involved Michael Prather and Maria Garcia
(NASA/GISS), Charlie Jackman and Anne Douglass (NASA/Goddard Space
Flight Center), and Malcolm Ko and Dak Sze (Atmospheric and
Environmental Research, Inc.). The effort was to look at the effects
of the space shuttle and Titan rockets on the stratosphere.
The following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine:
Industrial sources: 300,000,000 kilograms/year
Natural sources: 75,000,000 kilograms/year
Shuttle sources: 725,000 kilograms/year
The shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles and 6 Titan rockets are
launched yearly. Thus the launches would add less than 0.25% to the
total stratospheric chlorine sources.
The effect on ozone is minimal: global yearly average total ozone would
be decreased by 0.0065%. This is much less than total ozone variability
associated with volcanic activity and solar flares.
The influence of human-made chlorine products on ozone is computed
by atmospheric model calculations to be a 1% decrease in globally
averaged ozone between 1980 and 1990. The influence of the space shuttle and
Titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible. The launch
schedule of the Space Shuttle and Titan rockets would need to be
increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about
the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons
do at the present time.
Theoretical results of this study have been published in _The Space
Shuttle's Impact on the Stratosphere_, MJ Prather, MM Garcia, AR
Douglass, CH Jackman, M.K.W. Ko and N.D. Sze, Journal of Geophysical
Research, 95, 18583-18590, 1990.
Charles Jackman, Atmospheric Chemistry and Dynamics Branch,
Code 916, NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center,
Greenbelt, MD 20771
Also see _Chemical Rockets and the Environment_, A McDonald, R Bennett,
J Hinshaw, and M Barnes, Aerospace America, May 1991.
HOW LONG CAN A HUMAN LIVE UNPROTECTED IN SPACE
If you *don't* try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a
minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your
breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to
watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your
Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal
experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no
immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do
not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.
Various minor problems (sunburn, possibly "the bends", certainly some
[mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue)
start after ten seconds or so. At some point you lose consciousness from
lack of oxygen. Injuries accumulate. After perhaps one or two minutes,
you're dying. The limits are not really known.
References:
_The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near Vacuum_,
Alfred G. Koestler ed., NASA CR-329 (Nov 1965).
_Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum Environment_, R.W.
Bancroft, J.E. Dunn, eds, Report SAM-TR-65-48 (June 1965), USAF School
of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks AFB, Texas.
HOW THE CHALLENGER ASTRONAUTS DIED
The Challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion. This is
a well-documented fact; see the Rogers Commission report, for example.
What looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank
came apart. The forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the
astronauts, never mind destroy their bodies, according to the Kerwin
team's medical/forensic report.
The astronauts were killed when the more-or-less intact cabin hit the
water at circa 200MPH, and their bodies then spent several weeks
underwater. Their remains were recovered, and after the Kerwin team
examined them, they were sent off to be buried.
USING THE SHUTTLE BEYOND LOW EARTH ORBIT
You can't use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low Earth orbit
because it can't get there. It is big and heavy and does not carry
enough fuel, even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks.
Furthermore, it is not particularly sensible to do so, because much of
that weight is things like wings, which are totally useless except in
the immediate vicinity of the Earth. The shuttle orbiter is highly
specialized for travel between Earth's surface and low orbit. Taking it
higher is enormously costly and wasteful. A much better approach would
be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized high-orbit
spacecraft.
[Yet another concise answer by Henry Spencer.]
THE "FACE ON MARS"
There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
face. It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery:
35A72 (much more facelike in appearance, and the one more often
published, with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon) and 70A13
(with the Sun 27 degrees from the west).
Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
artificial, intended to resemble a human, and erected by an
extraterrestrial civilization. Most other analysts concede that the
resemblance is most likely accidental. Other Viking images show a
smiley-faced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
on Mars. There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society (sorry, don't
know the address) to study the Face.
The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely high-resolution
camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
question in a few years. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
sci.astro.
V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. $18 by mail.
R.R. Pozos, *The Face of Mars*, Chicago Review Press, 1986. [Account of
an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
investigate the Face]
R.C. Hoagland, *The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever*,
North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California, USA, 1987. [Elaborate
discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
form a city]
M.J. Carlotto, "Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
Features," *Applied Optics*, 27, pp. 1926-1933, 1987. [Extracts
three-dimensional model for the Face from the 2-D images]
M.J. Carlotto & M.C. Stein, "A Method of Searching for Artificial
Objects on Planetary Surfaces," *Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p.209-216. [Uses a fractal image
analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]
B. O'Leary, "Analysis of Images of the `Face' on Mars and Possible
Intelligent Origin," *JBIS*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p. 203-208.
[Lights Carlotto's model from the two angles and shows it's consistent;
shows that the Face doesn't look facelike if observed from the surface]
NEXT: FAQ #13/15 - Space activist/interest/research groups & space publications
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1215 Controversial Questions
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID cscontroversy_733694426
Expires 6 May 1993 200026 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 252
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Archivename spacecontroversy
Lastmodified Date 930401 143906
CONTROVERSIAL QUESTIONS
These issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being
offered The summaries below attempt to represent the position on which
much of the net community has settled Please DONT bring them up again
unless theres something truly new to be discussed The net cant set
public policy thats what your representatives are for
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SATURN V PLANS
Despite a widespread belief to the contrary the Saturn V blueprints
have not been lost They are kept at Marshall Space Flight Center on
microfilm
The problem in recreating the Saturn V is not finding the drawings it
is finding vendors who can supply mid1960s vintage hardware like
guidance system components and the fact that the launch pads and VAB
have been converted to Space Shuttle use so you have no place to launch
from
By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and remodify
the launch pads you may as well have started from scratch with a clean
sheet design
WHY DATA FROM SPACE MISSIONS ISNT IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE
Investigators associated with NASA missions are allowed exclusive access
for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an
opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being
scooped by people uninvolved in the mission However NASA frequently
releases examples in nondigital form eg photos to the public early
in a mission
RISKS OF NUCLEAR RTG POWER SOURCES FOR SPACE PROBES
There has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to
block the Galileo and Ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium
thermal sources being dangerous Numerous studies claim that even in
worstcase scenarios shuttle explosion during launch or accidental
reentry at interplanetary velocities the risks are extremely small
Two interesting data points are 1 The May 1968 loss of two SNAP 19B2
RTGs which landed intact in the Pacific Ocean after a Nimbus B weather
satellite failed to reach orbit The fuel was recovered after 5 months
with no release of plutonium 2 In April 1970 the Apollo 13 lunar
module reentered the atmosphere and its SNAP 27 RTG heat source which
was jettisoned fell intact into the 20000 feet deep Tonga Trench in
the Pacific Ocean The corrosion resistant materials of the RTG are
expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to 10
halflives of the Pu238 fuel or about 870 years [DOE 1980]
To make your own informed judgement some references you may wish to
pursue are
A good review of the technical facts and issues is given by Daniel
Salisbury in Radiation Risk and Planetary Exploration The RTG
Controversy Planetary Report MayJune 1987 pages 37 Another good
article which also reviews the events preceding Galileos launch
Showdown at Pad 39B by Robert G Nichols appeared in the November
1989 issue of Ad Astra Both magazines are published by prospace
organizations the Planetary Society and the National Space Society
respectively
Gordon L Chipman Jr Advanced Space Nuclear Systems AAS 82261 in
Developing the Space Frontier edited by Albert Naumann and Grover
Alexander Univelt 1983 p 193213
Hazards from Plutonium Toxicity by Bernard L Cohen Health Physics
Vol 32 may 1977 page 359379
NUS Corporation Safety Status Report for the Ulysses Mission Risk
Analysis Book 1 Document number is NUS 5235 there is no GPO
published Jan 31 1990
NASA Office of Space Science and Applications Final Environmental
Impact Statement for the Ulysses Mission Tier 2 no serial number or
GPO number but probably available from NTIS or NASA June 1990
[DOE 1980] US Department of Energy Transuranic Elements in the
Environment Wayne C Hanson editor DOE Document No DOETIC22800
Government Printing Office Washington DC April 1980
IMPACT OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE ON THE OZONE LAYER
From time to time claims are made that chemicals released from
the Space Shuttles Solid Rocket Boosters SRBs are responsible
for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer Studies
indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact both in
absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources The
remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted
study Charles Jackman
The atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the
stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups and was
organized by Dr Michael Prather NASAGoddard Institute for Space
Studies The three groups involved Michael Prather and Maria Garcia
NASAGISS Charlie Jackman and Anne Douglass NASAGoddard Space
Flight Center and Malcolm Ko and Dak Sze Atmospheric and
Environmental Research Inc The effort was to look at the effects
of the space shuttle and Titan rockets on the stratosphere
The following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine
Industrial sources 300000000 kilogramsyear
Natural sources 75000000 kilogramsyear
Shuttle sources 725000 kilogramsyear
The shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles and 6 Titan rockets are
launched yearly Thus the launches would add less than 025 to the
total stratospheric chlorine sources
The effect on ozone is minimal global yearly average total ozone would
be decreased by 00065 This is much less than total ozone variability
associated with volcanic activity and solar flares
The influence of humanmade chlorine products on ozone is computed
by atmospheric model calculations to be a 1 decrease in globally
averaged ozone between 1980 and 1990 The influence of the space shuttle and
Titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible The launch
schedule of the Space Shuttle and Titan rockets would need to be
increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about
the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons
do at the present time
Theoretical results of this study have been published in _The Space
Shuttles Impact on the Stratosphere_ MJ Prather MM Garcia AR
Douglass CH Jackman MKW Ko and ND Sze Journal of Geophysical
Research 95 1858318590 1990
Charles Jackman Atmospheric Chemistry and Dynamics Branch
Code 916 NASAGoddard Space Flight Center
Greenbelt MD 20771
Also see _Chemical Rockets and the Environment_ A McDonald R Bennett
J Hinshaw and M Barnes Aerospace America May 1991
HOW LONG CAN A HUMAN LIVE UNPROTECTED IN SPACE
If you dont try to hold your breath exposure to space for half a
minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury Holding your
breath is likely to damage your lungs something scuba divers have to
watch out for when ascending and youll have eardrum trouble if your
Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up but theory predicts and animal
experiments confirm that otherwise exposure to vacuum causes no
immediate injury You do not explode Your blood does not boil You do
not freeze You do not instantly lose consciousness
Various minor problems sunburn possibly the bends certainly some
[mild reversible painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue
start after ten seconds or so At some point you lose consciousness from
lack of oxygen Injuries accumulate After perhaps one or two minutes
youre dying The limits are not really known
References
_The Effect on the Chimpanzee of Rapid Decompression to a Near Vacuum_
Alfred G Koestler ed NASA CR329 Nov 1965
_Experimental Animal Decompression to a Near Vacuum Environment_ RW
Bancroft JE Dunn eds Report SAMTR6548 June 1965 USAF School
of Aerospace Medicine Brooks AFB Texas
HOW THE CHALLENGER ASTRONAUTS DIED
The Challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion This is
a welldocumented fact see the Rogers Commission report for example
What looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank
came apart The forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the
astronauts never mind destroy their bodies according to the Kerwin
teams medicalforensic report
The astronauts were killed when the moreorless intact cabin hit the
water at circa 200MPH and their bodies then spent several weeks
underwater Their remains were recovered and after the Kerwin team
examined them they were sent off to be buried
USING THE SHUTTLE BEYOND LOW EARTH ORBIT
You cant use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low Earth orbit
because it cant get there It is big and heavy and does not carry
enough fuel even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks
Furthermore it is not particularly sensible to do so because much of
that weight is things like wings which are totally useless except in
the immediate vicinity of the Earth The shuttle orbiter is highly
specialized for travel between Earths surface and low orbit Taking it
higher is enormously costly and wasteful A much better approach would
be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized highorbit
spacecraft
[Yet another concise answer by Henry Spencer]
THE FACE ON MARS
There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
face It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery
35A72 much more facelike in appearance and the one more often
published with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon and 70A13
with the Sun 27 degrees from the west
Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
artificial intended to resemble a human and erected by an
extraterrestrial civilization Most other analysts concede that the
resemblance is most likely accidental Other Viking images show a
smileyfaced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
on Mars There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society sorry dont
know the address to study the Face
The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely highresolution
camera and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
question in a few years In the meantime speculation about the Face is
best carried on in the altnet group altalienvisitors not scispace or
sciastro
V DiPeitro and G Molenaar Unusual Martian Surface Features Mars
Research PO Box 284 Glen Dale Maryland USA 1982 18 by mail
RR Pozos The Face of Mars Chicago Review Press 1986 [Account of
an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
investigate the Face]
RC Hoagland The Monuments of Mars A City on the Edge of Forever
North Atlantic Books Berkeley California USA 1987 [Elaborate
discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
form a city]
MJ Carlotto Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
Features Applied Optics 27 pp 19261933 1987 [Extracts
threedimensional model for the Face from the 2D images]
MJ Carlotto MC Stein A Method of Searching for Artificial
Objects on Planetary Surfaces Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society Vol 43 no 5 May 1990 p209216 [Uses a fractal image
analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]
B OLeary Analysis of Images of the `Face on Mars and Possible
Intelligent Origin JBIS Vol 43 no 5 May 1990 p 203208
[Lights Carlottos model from the two angles and shows its consistent
shows that the Face doesnt look facelike if observed from the surface]
NEXT FAQ 1315 Space activistinterestresearch groups space publications
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: <SEC108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Why the bible?
Lines: 38
One thing I think is interesting about alt.athiesm is the fact that
without bible-thumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup.
It almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to
tear apart. Oh well, that little tidbit aside here is what I really wanted
write about.
How can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible? If you
want to be religious aren't there more plausable books out there? Seriously,
the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each
other. One minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next
it says not to kill at all. I think that if xtians really want to follow a
deity they should pick one that can be consistent, unlike the last one they
invented.
For people who say Jesus was the son of god, didn't god say not to
EVER put ANYONE else before him? Looks like you did just that. Didn't god
say not to make any symbols or idols? What are crosses then? Don't you think
that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track?
Was Jesus illiterate? Why didn't he write anything? Anyone know?
I honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that
it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the
poorer quality ones to boot. The only reason xtianity escaped the middle east
is because a certain roman who's wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome
xtian after a bad dream.
If this posting keeps one person, just ONE person, from standing on a
streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell I will be happy.
*** Only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life. ***
*** Dr. Clayton Forester ***
*** Mad Scientist ***
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From
Subject Why the bible
Lines 38
One thing I think is interesting about altathiesm is the fact that
without biblethumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup
It almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to
tear apart Oh well that little tidbit aside here is what I really wanted
write about
How can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible If you
want to be religious arent there more plausable books out there Seriously
the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each
other One minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next
it says not to kill at all I think that if xtians really want to follow a
deity they should pick one that can be consistent unlike the last one they
invented
For people who say Jesus was the son of god didnt god say not to
EVER put ANYONE else before him Looks like you did just that Didnt god
say not to make any symbols or idols What are crosses then Dont you think
that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track
Was Jesus illiterate Why didnt he write anything Anyone know
I honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that
it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the
poorer quality ones to boot The only reason xtianity escaped the middle east
is because a certain roman whos wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome
xtian after a bad dream
If this posting keeps one person just ONE person from standing on a
streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell I will be happy
Only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life
Dr Clayton Forester
Mad Scientist
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Space Design Movies?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.124722.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Is there a few Grasp pictures of space related items, namely Space Station
Designs, so you can see the "finished" revolt around..
If you don't know what a grasp prograsm is.. Check out some adult entertainment
files and see what I mean.. Or maybe geta few GIF files and create a "slide
shows" (I think Cshow can do this)..
I liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a AutoCAD program or to see
it revolt around and look at it.
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Space Design Movies
ArticleID aurora1993Apr231247221
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Is there a few Grasp pictures of space related items namely Space Station
Designs so you can see the finished revolt around
If you dont know what a grasp prograsm is Check out some adult entertainment
files and see what I mean Or maybe geta few GIF files and create a slide
shows I think Cshow can do this
I liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a AutoCAD program or to see
it revolt around and look at it
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql5snINN4vm@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
|> >>to be moral one?
|> >
|> >I like to think that many things are possible. Explain to me
|> >how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
|>
|> For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
would be nothing voluntary about it.
|>
|> >>That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
|> >>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard
|> >>it?
|> >
|> >Weaker than that. There must be the possibility that the
|> >organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can
|> >consider alternatives.
|>
|> So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
|> beings mimics theirs?
You are starting to get the point. Mimicry is not necessarily the
same as the action being imitated. A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly"
isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.
|> And, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence?
See above.
|> Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but
|> they don't.
They do. I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this, but you seem to have a very short memory.
|> Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
|> most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
I'm saying:
"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not
just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
It's right there in the posting you are replying to.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
to be moral one
I like to think that many things are possible Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
For example if it were instinctive not to murder
Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
would be nothing voluntary about it
That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard
it
Weaker than that There must be the possibility that the
organism its not just people we are talking about can
consider alternatives
So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs
You are starting to get the point Mimicry is not necessarily the
same as the action being imitated A Parrot saying Pretty Polly
isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly
And how much emphasis do you place on intelligence
See above
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but
they dont
They do I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this but you seem to have a very short memory
Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
Im saying
There must be the possibility that the organism its not
just people we are talking about can consider alternatives
Its right there in the posting you are replying to
jon
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Moraltiy? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 34
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>>>What if I act morally for no particular reason? Then am I moral? What
>>>>if morality is instinctive, as in most animals?
>>>Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to
>>>assume your conclusion.
>>Which conclusion?
>You conclusion - correct me if I err - that the behaviour which is
>instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system.
See, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here. Earlier, you said
that it must be a conscious act. By your definition, no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality. You are trying to apply
human terms to non-humans. I think that even if someone is not conscious
of an alternative, this does not prevent his behavior from being moral.
>>You don't think that morality is a behavior pattern? What is human
>>morality? A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
>>pattern. That is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral.
>You keep getting this backwards. *You* are trying to show that
>the behaviour pattern is a morality. Whether morality is a behavior
>pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for
>example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would
>not call a morality.
I try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown.
And, morality can be thought of a large class of princples. It could be
defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish. However,
it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics. It is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least
some free will.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Moraltiy was Re What if I act morally for no particular reason Then am I moral What
if morality is instinctive as in most animals
Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to
assume your conclusion
Which conclusion
You conclusion correct me if I err that the behaviour which is
instinctive in animals is a natural moral system
See we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here Earlier you said
that it must be a conscious act By your definition no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality You are trying to apply
human terms to nonhumans I think that even if someone is not conscious
of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral
You dont think that morality is a behavior pattern What is human
morality A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
pattern That is we enforce a certain behavior as moral
You keep getting this backwards You are trying to show that
the behaviour pattern is a morality Whether morality is a behavior
pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for
example the motions of the planets that most all people would
not call a morality
I try to show it but by your definition it cant be shown
And morality can be thought of a large class of princples It could be
defined in terms of many thingsthe laws of physics if you wish However
it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics It is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least
some free will
keith
preprocess doc From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 15
As for SF and advertising in space. There is a romantic episode
in Mead's "The Big Ball of Wax" where the lovers are watching
the constellation Pepsi Cola rising over the horizon and noting
the some 'stars' had slipped cause the Teamsters were on strike.
This was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation
of space mirrors published in Spaceflight in 1986. As the reviews
said: this seems technically feasible, and could be commercially viable
but is it aesthetically desirable? These days the only aesthetics
that count are the ones you can count!
--
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca
after prepro From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Space Advertising 2 of 2
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 15
As for SF and advertising in space There is a romantic episode
in Meads The Big Ball of Wax where the lovers are watching
the constellation Pepsi Cola rising over the horizon and noting
the some stars had slipped cause the Teamsters were on strike
This was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation
of space mirrors published in Spaceflight in 1986 As the reviews
said this seems technically feasible and could be commercially viable
but is it aesthetically desirable These days the only aesthetics
that count are the ones you can count
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
In-Reply-To: 's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15: 50:02 EDT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
Lines: 11
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:50:02 EDT, <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> said:
J> YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!! BE
J> PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!
Hmm, I've got my MST3K lunch box, my travel scrabble, and a couple of
kegs of Bass Ale. I'm all set! Let's go everybody!
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
InReplyTo s message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 15 5002 EDT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
Lines 11
On Fri 16 Apr 1993 155002 EDT said
J YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD BE
J PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION
Hmm Ive got my MST3K lunch box my travel scrabble and a couple of
kegs of Bass Ale Im all set Lets go everybody
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 19
keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
>
> Not so. If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
> blame the tiger?
As far as I know, tigers are not sentient. If I were pushed into a pool with
some dolphins and they attacked me, I might be inclined to blame the dolphins
rather than the person doing the pushing, as (a) dolphins are not usually
aggressive and (b) they seem to have well-developed brains and a capacity for
abstract thought.
As a matter of fact, tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes
them. Of course, if they are in a cage which is far too small, that might
count as provocation...
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re mathew writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
Not so If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger
As far as I know tigers are not sentient If I were pushed into a pool with
some dolphins and they attacked me I might be inclined to blame the dolphins
rather than the person doing the pushing as a dolphins are not usually
aggressive and b they seem to have welldeveloped brains and a capacity for
abstract thought
As a matter of fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes
them Of course if they are in a cage which is far too small that might
count as provocation
mathew
preprocess doc From: buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke)
Subject: White House outlines options for station, Russian cooperation
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 71
------- Blind-Carbon-Copy
To: spacenews@austen.rand.org, cti@austen.rand.org
Subject: White House outlines options for station, Russian cooperation
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 93 16:00:21 PDT
From: Richard Buenneke <buenneke@austen.rand.org>
4/06/93: GIBBONS OUTLINES SPACE STATION REDESIGN GUIDANCE
NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.
April 6, 1993
RELEASE: 93-64
Dr. John H. Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and Technology
Policy, outlined to the members-designate of the Advisory Committee on the
Redesign of the Space Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance
to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space
station.
A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7 billion and a
high option of $9 billion will be considered by the committee. Each
option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development,
operations, utilization, Shuttle integration, facilities, research
operations support, transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds.
Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within the NASA
budget for the President's new technology investment. As a result,
station options above $7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting
reductions in the rest of the NASA budget. For example, a space station
option of $9 billion would require $2 billion in offsets from the NASA
budget over the next 5 years.
Gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of
the advisory committee. Generally, the members-designate focused upon
administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted. They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the
Station Redesign Team is following to develop options for the advisory
committee to consider.
Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese and Canadians -- have
decided, after consultation, to give "full consideration" to use of
Russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process.
To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate in the
redesign effort on an as-needed consulting basis, so that the redesign
team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR
and the possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and systems.
The U.S. and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of
the Russian participants in assessing Russian systems and technology. The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing
station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes.
Careful integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in achieving
that goal.
Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is committed to the
redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the
science, the technology and the jobs that the space station program
represents. However, he also is committed to a space station that is well
managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should
be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation."
NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East-West Space Science
Center at the University of Maryland under the leadership of Roald
Sagdeev.
------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy
after prepro From buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke
Subject White House outlines options for station Russian cooperation
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 71
BlindCarbonCopy
To spacenewsaustenrandorg ctiaustenrandorg
Subject White House outlines options for station Russian cooperation
Date Tue 06 Apr 93 160021 PDT
From Richard Buenneke
40693 GIBBONS OUTLINES SPACE STATION REDESIGN GUIDANCE
NASA Headquarters Washington DC
April 6 1993
RELEASE 9364
Dr John H Gibbons Director Office of Science and Technology
Policy outlined to the membersdesignate of the Advisory Committee on the
Redesign of the Space Station on April 3 three budget options as guidance
to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space
station
A low option of 5 billion a midrange option of 7 billion and a
high option of 9 billion will be considered by the committee Each
option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for development
operations utilization Shuttle integration facilities research
operations support transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds
Over the next 5 years 4 billion is reserved within the NASA
budget for the Presidents new technology investment As a result
station options above 7 billion must be accompanied by offsetting
reductions in the rest of the NASA budget For example a space station
option of 9 billion would require 2 billion in offsets from the NASA
budget over the next 5 years
Gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of
the advisory committee Generally the membersdesignate focused upon
administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the
Station Redesign Team is following to develop options for the advisory
committee to consider
Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners the Europeans Japanese and Canadians have
decided after consultation to give full consideration to use of
Russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process
To that end the Russians will be asked to participate in the
redesign effort on an asneeded consulting basis so that the redesign
team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR
and the possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and systems
The US and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of
the Russian participants in assessing Russian systems and technology The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing
station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes
Careful integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in achieving
that goal
Gibbons reiterated that President Clinton is committed to the
redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the
science the technology and the jobs that the space station program
represents However he also is committed to a space station that is well
managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should
be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation
NASA Administrator Daniel S Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the EastWest Space Science
Center at the University of Maryland under the leadership of Roald
Sagdeev
End of BlindCarbonCopy
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
In-Reply-To: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM's message of 16 Apr 93 05: 10:18 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
Lines: 26
>>>>> On 16 Apr 93 05:10:18 GMT, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) said:
RB> In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
>EVER HEAR OF
>BAPTISM AT BIRTH? If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
>is...
>
RB>
RB> No, that's praying on the young. Preying on the young comes
RB> later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB> priest really wears under that chasible.
The same thing Scotsmen where under there kilt.
I'll never forget the day when I was about tweleve and accidently
walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware
drinking beer and watching football.
Kind of changed my opinion a bit. They didn't seem so menacing after
that.
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re thoughts on christians
InReplyTo bobbeviceICOTEKCOMs message of 16 Apr 93 05 1018 GMT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
Lines 26
On 16 Apr 93 051018 GMT bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine said
RB In article pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is
RB
RB No thats praying on the young Preying on the young comes
RB later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB priest really wears under that chasible
The same thing Scotsmen where under there kilt
Ill never forget the day when I was about tweleve and accidently
walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware
drinking beer and watching football
Kind of changed my opinion a bit They didnt seem so menacing after
that
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 30
SCOTT D. SAUYET (SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu) wrote:
: Regardless of people's hidden motivations, the stated reasons for many
: wars include religion. Of course you can always claim that the REAL
: reason was economics, politics, ethnic strife, or whatever. But the
: fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer
: the heathens.
: If you want to say, for instance, that economics was the chief cause
: of the Crusades, you could certainly make that point. But someone
: could come along and demonstrate that it was REALLY something else, in
: the same manner you show that it was REALLY not religion. You could
: in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the Crusades.
:
Scott,
I don't have to make outrageous claims about religion's affecting and
effecting history, for the purpsoe of a.a, all I have to do point out
that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate
atheism. At no time have I made any statement that religion was the
sole cause of anything, what I have done is point out that those who
do make that kind of claim are mistaken, usually deliberately.
To credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to
misunderstand human nature, the function of religion and of course,
history. I believe that those who distort history in this way know
exaclty what they're doing, and do it only for affect.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 30
SCOTT D SAUYET SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu wrote
Regardless of peoples hidden motivations the stated reasons for many
wars include religion Of course you can always claim that the REAL
reason was economics politics ethnic strife or whatever But the
fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer
the heathens
If you want to say for instance that economics was the chief cause
of the Crusades you could certainly make that point But someone
could come along and demonstrate that it was REALLY something else in
the same manner you show that it was REALLY not religion You could
in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the Crusades
Scott
I dont have to make outrageous claims about religions affecting and
effecting history for the purpsoe of aa all I have to do point out
that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate
atheism At no time have I made any statement that religion was the
sole cause of anything what I have done is point out that those who
do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately
To credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to
misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course
history I believe that those who distort history in this way know
exaclty what theyre doing and do it only for affect
Bill
preprocess doc From: pwg25888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Patrick W. Grady)
Subject: Re: Did any DC-X gifs show up?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 30
fils@iastate.edu (Douglas R Fils) writes:
>In article <1qgiah$h9g@news.cerf.net> diaspar@nic.cerf.net (Diaspar Virtual Reality Network) writes:
>>The rollout was great and I got lots of great shots. I attended
>>the press briefing and got shots of the DC-Y model, too. All
>>in 3D
>>
>>David H. Mitchell
>>
>>
>David,
> Are you still planing on scanning these and posting them
>somewhere? Hope Hope Hope. If you could that would be GREAT.
>Thanks for report of the rollout as well
>take care
>Doug
They did the rollout already??!? I am going to have to pay more
attention to the news. Are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive??
Patrick
--
Patrick Grady |How do they manage it, these humans-beginning
pwg25888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |each time so innocently, yet always ending up
pwg25888@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu |with the most blood on their hands?
|Fathertree to bugger, O.S. Card's _Xenocide_
after prepro From pwg25888uxacsouiucedu Patrick W Grady
Subject Re Did any DCX gifs show up
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 30
filsiastateedu Douglas R Fils writes
In article 1qgiahh9gnewscerfnet diasparniccerfnet Diaspar Virtual Reality Network writes
The rollout was great and I got lots of great shots I attended
the press briefing and got shots of the DCY model too All
in 3D
David H Mitchell
David
Are you still planing on scanning these and posting them
somewhere Hope Hope Hope If you could that would be GREAT
Thanks for report of the rollout as well
take care
Doug
They did the rollout already I am going to have to pay more
attention to the news Are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive
Patrick
Patrick Grady How do they manage it these humansbeginning
pwg25888uxacsouiucedu each time so innocently yet always ending up
pwg25888sumtercsouiucedu with the most blood on their hands
Fathertree to bugger OS Cards _Xenocide_
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31
In article <11820@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: some thoughts.
>Keywords: Dan Bissell
>Date: 15 Apr 93 18:21:21 GMT
>In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu> bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
>>
>> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
>>makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
>>lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
>>writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
>>in the process he became a Christian himself.
>
> This should be good fun. It's been a while since the group has
> had such a ripe opportunity to gut, gill, and fillet some poor
> bastard.
>
> Ah well. Off to get the popcorn...
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hope you're not going to flame him. Please give him the same coutesy you'
ve given me.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31
In article 11820viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Date 15 Apr 93 182121 GMT
In article bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
This should be good fun Its been a while since the group has
had such a ripe opportunity to gut gill and fillet some poor
bastard
Ah well Off to get the popcorn
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hope youre not going to flame him Please give him the same coutesy you
ve given me
Tammy
preprocess doc From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Jemison on Star Trek
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 7
I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
"Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.
Doug Loss
after prepro From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Jemison on Star Trek
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 7
I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
Its hardly space science I know but its interesting
Doug Loss
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Article-I.D.: mojo.1qkmkiINNep3
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>
>There are actually only two of us. I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary. Oh yeah,
>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
Damn! So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the K-MART!
UNLIMITED INSEMINATION OF THIS MESSAGE
RIGIDLY REFUSED
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re How many read scispace
ArticleID mojo1qkmkiINNep3
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes
There are actually only two of us I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby
Damn So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the KMART
UNLIMITED INSEMINATION OF THIS MESSAGE
RIGIDLY REFUSED
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.141137.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
> In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu> schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:
>
>>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
>
>>Oh gee, a billion dollars! That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>>feasability study! Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
>
> Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
> $$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
> moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
> transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
> more than needed.
>
> This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
> enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
>
> Allen
>
> --
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
> | W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
> +----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
Or have different classes of competetors.. and made the total purse $6billion
or $7billion (depending on how many different classes there are, as in auto
racing/motocycle racing and such)..
We shall see how things go..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr201411371
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 33
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Oh gee a billion dollars Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study Happy Happy JOY JOY
Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
more than needed
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
Or have different classes of competetors and made the total purse 6billion
or 7billion depending on how many different classes there are as in auto
racingmotocycle racing and such
We shall see how things go
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: university violating separation of church/state?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 29
dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings) writes:
> Recently, RAs have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about
> it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll: Thoughts
> on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
> stall doors. (at my school, the University of New Hampshire) It is some sort
> of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus. It poses a
> question about 'spirituality' each issue, and solicits responses to be
> included in the next 'issue.' It's all pretty vague. I assume it's put out
> by a Christian, but they're very careful not to mention Jesus or the bible.
> I've heard someone defend it, saying "Well it doesn't support any one religion.
> " So what??? This is a STATE university, and as a strong supporter of the
> separation of church and state, I was enraged.
>
> What can I do about this?
It sounds to me like it's just SCREAMING OUT for parody. Give a copy to your
friendly neighbourhood SubGenius preacher; with luck, he'll run it through the
mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut-bustingly
funny parody you can paste over the originals.
I can see it now:
The Stool Scroll
Thoughts on Religion, Spirituality, and Matters of the Colon
(You can use this text to wipe)
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re university violating separation of churchstate
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 29
dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes
Recently RAs have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about
it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll Thoughts
on religion spirituality and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
stall doors at my school the University of New Hampshire It is some sort
of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus It poses a
question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses to be
included in the next issue Its all pretty vague I assume its put out
by a Christian but theyre very careful not to mention Jesus or the bible
Ive heard someone defend it saying Well it doesnt support any one religion
So what This is a STATE university and as a strong supporter of the
separation of church and state I was enraged
What can I do about this
It sounds to me like its just SCREAMING OUT for parody Give a copy to your
friendly neighbourhood SubGenius preacher with luck hell run it through the
mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gutbustingly
funny parody you can paste over the originals
I can see it now
The Stool Scroll
Thoughts on Religion Spirituality and Matters of the Colon
You can use this text to wipe
mathew
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Henry,
didn't the Little Joe and Big Joe get built in under a year?
6 months for little Joe, and 12 Months for Big Joe?
i thought i saw something on that for a old mercury film.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Henry
didnt the Little Joe and Big Joe get built in under a year
6 months for little Joe and 12 Months for Big Joe
i thought i saw something on that for a old mercury film
pat
preprocess doc From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Quotation Was:(Re: <None|)
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 12
In article <1993Apr16.155656.1@otago.ac.nz| bioccnt@otago.ac.nz writes:
|
|Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation?
|
|He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
|the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
|million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
|bidder....."
|
Sounds similar to something Wally Schirra said.
--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131
after prepro From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Quotation WasRe None
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 12
In article 1993Apr161556561otagoacnz bioccntotagoacnz writes
Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation
He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder
Sounds similar to something Wally Schirra said
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131
preprocess doc From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Russian Email Contacts.
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 10
I am coordinating the Space Shuttle Program Office's e-mail traffic to
NPO Energia for our on-going Joint Missions. I have several e-mail
addresses for NPO Energia folks, but I won't post them on the 'Net for
obvious reasons. If you need to know, give me a yell.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"The earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind will not stay in
the cradle forever." -- Konstantin Tsiolkvosky
after prepro From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Russian Email Contacts
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 10
I am coordinating the Space Shuttle Program Offices email traffic to
NPO Energia for our ongoing Joint Missions I have several email
addresses for NPO Energia folks but I wont post them on the Net for
obvious reasons If you need to know give me a yell
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in
the cradle forever Konstantin Tsiolkvosky
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: Rationality (was: Islamic marriage)?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 115
In <1993Apr4.093904.20517@proxima.alt.za> lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re) writes:
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>My point of view is that the argument "all sexism is bad" just simply
>>does not hold. Let me give you an example. How about permitting a
>>woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy -- should that be
>>allowed? It happens to be sexist, as it gives a particular right only
>>to women. Nevertheless, despite the fact that it is sexist, I completely
>>support such a law, because I think it is just.
>Fred, you're exasperating... Sexism, like racialism, is a form of
>discrimination, using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny
>one portion of the population the same rights as another.
>In this context, your example above holds no water whatsoever:
>there's no discrimination in "denying" men maternity leave, in fact
>I'm quite convinced that, were anyone to experiment with male
>pregnancy, it would be possible for such a future father to take
>leave on medical grounds.
Okay... I argued this thoroughly about 3-4 weeks ago. Men and women are
different ... physically, physiologically, and psychologically. Much
recent evidence for this statement is present in the book "Brainsex" by
Anne Moir and David Jessel. I recommend you find a copy and read it.
Their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic
and is well referenced.
Now, if women and men are different in some ways, the law can only
adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are
different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women
are different. Maternity leave is an example of this -- it takes into
account that women get pregnant. It does not give women the same rules
it would give to men, because to treat women like it treats men in this
instance would be unjust. This is just simply an obvious example of
where men and women are intrinsically different!!!!!
Now, people make the _naive_ argument that sexism = oppression.
However, maternity leave is sexist because MEN DO NOT GET PREGNANT.
Men do not have the same access to leave that women do (not to the same
extent or degree), and therefore IT IS SEXIST. No matter however much a
man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave, HE NEVER CAN. And
therefore the law IS SEXIST. No man can have access to maternity leave,
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES TO GET PREGNANT. I hope this is clear.
Maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just, because the
sexism here just reflects the "sexism" of nature in making men and women
different. There are many other differences between men and women which
are far more subtle than pregnancy, and to find out more of these I
recommend you have a look at the book "Brainsex".
Your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious.
If men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically
become women! To have a womb and the other factors required for
pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is --
so your argument, when it is examined, is seen to be fallacious. You
are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that
women can have if they also become women -- which actually just supports
my statement that maternity leave is sexist.
>The discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities
>because of her (legally determined) sexual inferiorities. As I
>understand most religious sexual discrimination, and I doubt that
>Islam is exceptional, the female is not allowed into the priestly
>caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to
>rights which, as an equal human, she ought to be entitled to.
There is no official priesthood in Islam -- much of this function is
taken by Islamic scholars. There are female Islamic scholars and
female Islamic scholars have always existed in Islam. An example from
early Islamic history is the Prophet's widow, Aisha, who was recognized
in her time and is recognized in our time as an Islamic scholar.
>No matter how sweetly you coat it, part of the role of religions
>seems, historically, to have served the function of oppressing the
>female, whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where
>there is no opportunity for self-improvement, or by denying her
>access to the same facilities the males are offered.
You have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions, and
I dispute it. I could go on and on about women in Islam, etc., but I
recently reposted something here under the heading "Islam and Women" --
if it is still at your news-site I suggest you read it. It is reposted
from soc.religion.islam, so if it has disappeared from alt.atheism it
still might be in soc.religion.islam (I forgot what its original title
was though). I will email it to you if you like.
>The Roman Catholic Church is the most blatant of the culprit,
>because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy, but the
>other religious are no different: let a woman attempt to escape her
>role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her.
Your statement that "other religions are no different" is, I think, a
statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity and perhaps Judaism.
>I'll accept your affirmation that Islam grants women the same rights
>as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the
>same position as (say) Khomeini and there are no artificial religious
>or social obstacles on her path to achieve this.
Aisha, who I mentioned earlier, was not only an Islamic scholar but also
was, at one stage, a military leader.
>Show me the equivalent of Hillary Rhodam-Clinton within Islam, and I
>may consider discussing the issue with you.
The Prophet's first wife, who died just before the "Hijra" (the
Prophet's journey from Mecca to Medina) was a successful businesswoman.
Lucio, you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your
viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage Rationality was Islamic marriage
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 115
In 1993Apr409390420517proximaaltza lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re writes
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
My point of view is that the argument all sexism is bad just simply
does not hold Let me give you an example How about permitting a
woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy should that be
allowed It happens to be sexist as it gives a particular right only
to women Nevertheless despite the fact that it is sexist I completely
support such a law because I think it is just
Fred youre exasperating Sexism like racialism is a form of
discrimination using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny
one portion of the population the same rights as another
In this context your example above holds no water whatsoever
theres no discrimination in denying men maternity leave in fact
Im quite convinced that were anyone to experiment with male
pregnancy it would be possible for such a future father to take
leave on medical grounds
Okay I argued this thoroughly about 34 weeks ago Men and women are
different physically physiologically and psychologically Much
recent evidence for this statement is present in the book Brainsex by
Anne Moir and David Jessel I recommend you find a copy and read it
Their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic
and is well referenced
Now if women and men are different in some ways the law can only
adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are
different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women
are different Maternity leave is an example of this it takes into
account that women get pregnant It does not give women the same rules
it would give to men because to treat women like it treats men in this
instance would be unjust This is just simply an obvious example of
where men and women are intrinsically different
Now people make the _naive_ argument that sexism oppression
However maternity leave is sexist because MEN DO NOT GET PREGNANT
Men do not have the same access to leave that women do not to the same
extent or degree and therefore IT IS SEXIST No matter however much a
man _wants_ to get pregnant and have maternity leave HE NEVER CAN And
therefore the law IS SEXIST No man can have access to maternity leave
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES TO GET PREGNANT I hope this is clear
Maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just because the
sexism here just reflects the sexism of nature in making men and women
different There are many other differences between men and women which
are far more subtle than pregnancy and to find out more of these I
recommend you have a look at the book Brainsex
Your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious
If men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically
become women To have a womb and the other factors required for
pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is
so your argument when it is examined is seen to be fallacious You
are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that
women can have if they also become women which actually just supports
my statement that maternity leave is sexist
The discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities
because of her legally determined sexual inferiorities As I
understand most religious sexual discrimination and I doubt that
Islam is exceptional the female is not allowed into the priestly
caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to
rights which as an equal human she ought to be entitled to
There is no official priesthood in Islam much of this function is
taken by Islamic scholars There are female Islamic scholars and
female Islamic scholars have always existed in Islam An example from
early Islamic history is the Prophets widow Aisha who was recognized
in her time and is recognized in our time as an Islamic scholar
No matter how sweetly you coat it part of the role of religions
seems historically to have served the function of oppressing the
female whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where
there is no opportunity for selfimprovement or by denying her
access to the same facilities the males are offered
You have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and
I dispute it I could go on and on about women in Islam etc but I
recently reposted something here under the heading Islam and Women
if it is still at your newssite I suggest you read it It is reposted
from socreligionislam so if it has disappeared from altatheism it
still might be in socreligionislam I forgot what its original title
was though I will email it to you if you like
The Roman Catholic Church is the most blatant of the culprit
because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy but the
other religious are no different let a woman attempt to escape her
role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her
Your statement that other religions are no different is I think a
statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity and perhaps Judaism
Ill accept your affirmation that Islam grants women the same rights
as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the
same position as say Khomeini and there are no artificial religious
or social obstacles on her path to achieve this
Aisha who I mentioned earlier was not only an Islamic scholar but also
was at one stage a military leader
Show me the equivalent of Hillary RhodamClinton within Islam and I
may consider discussing the issue with you
The Prophets first wife who died just before the Hijra the
Prophets journey from Mecca to Medina was a successful businesswoman
Lucio you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your
viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Lines: 12
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccsua.ctstateu.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
In article <kmr4.1563.734805744@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> In article <1qgbmt$c4f@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cr866@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank D. Kirschner) writes:
>
>> ---
>
> Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible.
>
>
Since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?There must be a God
of inbreeding to which you are his only son.
Pope John Paul
after prepro From kellybccsuactstateuedu
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Lines 12
NntpPostingHost ccsuactstateuedu
Organization Yale University Department of Computer Science New Haven CT
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article 1qgbmtc4fusenetINSCWRUEdu cr866clevelandFreenetEdu Frank D Kirschner writes
Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible
Since when does atheism mean trashing other religionsThere must be a God
of inbreeding to which you are his only son
Pope John Paul
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca> agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes:
>|> ... a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer ...
>
>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
If I'm not mistaken, this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of
communications. That timer is counting down continuously; if it ever hits
zero, that means Galileo hasn't heard from Earth in a suspiciously long
time and it may be Galileo's fault... so it's time to go into a fallback
mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances
of restoring contact. I don't know exactly what-all Galileo does in such
a situation, but a common example is to switch receivers, on the theory
that maybe the one you're listening with has died.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17
In article 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes
a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
If Im not mistaken this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of
communications That timer is counting down continuously if it ever hits
zero that means Galileo hasnt heard from Earth in a suspiciously long
time and it may be Galileos fault so its time to go into a fallback
mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances
of restoring contact I dont know exactly whatall Galileo does in such
a situation but a common example is to switch receivers on the theory
that maybe the one youre listening with has died
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr17.042918.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu>, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
>
> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
> back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information.
>
> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?
>
> Frank Snyder
> Auburn University
>
> snydefj@eng.auburn.edu
I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last
year..Also about Solar Sailing. Not sure who captured it if possible..
I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data?
I think I started the latest round or the late last year round.. But the topic
has been around here, off and on for a year or two..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
ArticleID aurora1993Apr170429181
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
back in the late 70s but I am having trouble gathering such information
Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project
Frank Snyder
Auburn University
snydefjengauburnedu
I know someone had long talks about Solar Sails early this year and late last
yearAlso about Solar Sailing Not sure who captured it if possible
I think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data
I think I started the latest round or the late last year round But the topic
has been around here off and on for a year or two
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 17
In article <16BB112525.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>I assume that you say here a religious law is for the followers of the
>religion. That begs the question why the religion has the right to define
>who is a follower even when the offenders disagree.
No, I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. This
prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion
who, when charged, claims that he/she was _not_ a member of the
religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 17
In article 16BB112525I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
I assume that you say here a religious law is for the followers of the
religion That begs the question why the religion has the right to define
who is a follower even when the offenders disagree
No I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies This
prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion
who when charged claims that heshe was _not_ a member of the
religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened
Gregg
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 16
Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:
...
>people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
>and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D
Seen that movie already. Or one just like it.
Come to think of it, they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing...
>Jeff Cook Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.com
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 16
JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D
Seen that movie already Or one just like it
Come to think of it they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing
Jeff Cook JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRcom
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 15
In article <C5w5F8.3LC.1@cs.cmu.edu> nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>
>Would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not
>much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km
>inflatable billboards in LEO (or in GEO, visible 24 hours from your
>key growth market). I'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of
>identity).
I've heard of sillier things, like a well-known utility company
wanting to buy an 'automated' boiler-cleaning system which uses as many
operators as the old system, and which rumour has it costs three million
more per unit. Automation is more 'efficient' although by what scale they are
not saying...
James Nicoll
after prepro From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Western Ontario London
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 15
In article nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
Would they buy it given that its a _lot_ more expensive and not
much more impressive than putting a large set of severalkm
inflatable billboards in LEO or in GEO visible 24 hours from your
key growth market Ill do _that_ for only 5bn and the changes of
identity
Ive heard of sillier things like a wellknown utility company
wanting to buy an automated boilercleaning system which uses as many
operators as the old system and which rumour has it costs three million
more per unit Automation is more efficient although by what scale they are
not saying
James Nicoll
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22
In <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
>$$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
>moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
>transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
>more than needed.
>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
But Allen, if you can assume the existence of an SSTO there is no need
to have the contest in the first place. I would think that what we
want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these
'cheaper' ways of doing things; if they already exist, why flush $1G
just to get someone to go to the Moon for a year?
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22
In 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
more than needed
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
But Allen if you can assume the existence of an SSTO there is no need
to have the contest in the first place I would think that what we
want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these
cheaper ways of doing things if they already exist why flush 1G
just to get someone to go to the Moon for a year
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: nancyo@fraser.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 11
timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:
>Rule #4: Don't mix apples with oranges. How can you say that the
>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin? Khan conquered people
>unsympathetic to his cause. That was atrocious. But Stalin killed millions of
>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! How can
>anyone be worse than that?
You're right. And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian.
after prepro From nancyofrasersfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC Canada
Lines 11
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
Rule 4 Dont mix apples with oranges How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause That was atrocious But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state How can
anyone be worse than that
Youre right And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: ? (was Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?))
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
Distribution: world,public
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Keywords: Time for a consistency check, bub.
sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>Of course, if at some later time we think that the death penalty
>>*is* cruel or unusual, it will be outlawed. But at the present,
>>most people don't seem to think this way.
>*This* from the same fellow who speaks of an "objective" or "natural"
>morality. I suppose that if the majority decides slavery is OK, then
>it is no longer immoral?
I did not claim that our system was objective.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re was Re Cruel was Re Of course if at some later time we think that the death penalty
is cruel or unusual it will be outlawed But at the present
most people dont seem to think this way
This from the same fellow who speaks of an objective or natural
morality I suppose that if the majority decides slavery is OK then
it is no longer immoral
I did not claim that our system was objective
keith
preprocess doc From: b711zbr@utarlg.uta.edu (JUNYAN WANG)
Subject: Bible contradictions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: utarlg.uta.edu
Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington
Lines: 2
I would like a list of Bible contadictions from those of you who dispite
being free from Christianity are well versed in the Bible.
after prepro From b711zbrutarlgutaedu JUNYAN WANG
Subject Bible contradictions
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
NntpPostingHost utarlgutaedu
Organization The University of Texas at Arlington
Lines 2
I would like a list of Bible contadictions from those of you who dispite
being free from Christianity are well versed in the Bible
preprocess doc From: ktj@beach.cis.ufl.edu (kerry todd johnson)
Subject: army in space
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: beach.cis.ufl.edu
Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space? After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army,
and I would like to spend it in a space-related field. I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counter-part. Any more info on that would be appreciated. I'm
looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other? To
whom do I voice my interest in space? What qualifications are necessary?
Etc, etc. BTW, my major is computer science engineering.
Please reply to ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu
Thanks for ANY info.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Whether they ever find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be =
= considered an enemy planet. -- Jack Handy =
---ktj@reef.cis.ufl.edu---cirop59@elm.circa.ufl.edu---endeavour@circa.ufl.edu--
after prepro From ktjbeachcisufledu kerry todd johnson
Subject army in space
Organization Univ of Florida CIS Dept
Lines 17
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost beachcisufledu
Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space After I graduate I will have a commitment to serve in the Army
and I would like to spend it in a spacerelated field I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counterpart Any more info on that would be appreciated Im
looking for things like do I branch Intelligence or Signal or other To
whom do I voice my interest in space What qualifications are necessary
Etc etc BTW my major is computer science engineering
Please reply to ktjreefcisufledu
Thanks for ANY info
Whether they ever find life there or not I think Jupiter should be
considered an enemy planet Jack Handy
ktjreefcisufleducirop59elmcircaufleduendeavourcircaufledu
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 37
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
>First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian.
Well, this is alt.atheism. I hope you arent here to try to convert anyone.
>It makes sense to be one.
Many would disagree.
[...]
>The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
Well, you shouldn't give any particular book too much weight. Actually,
I don't think that any of these statements is correct. It is more likely
that most of Jesus' fame was attributed to him after his death by those
who had some strong motives...
[...]
>Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone.
What's a prophecy, and what's so significant about them?
>I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.
I think we understand.
>It is certainly not what I see a lot in churches. Rather I think it
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's
>sake.
Well, sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now...
Don't waste any time.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 37
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Keywords Dan Bissell
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian
Well this is altatheism I hope you arent here to try to convert anyone
It makes sense to be one
Many would disagree
[]
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Well you shouldnt give any particular book too much weight Actually
I dont think that any of these statements is correct It is more likely
that most of Jesus fame was attributed to him after his death by those
who had some strong motives
[]
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone
Whats a prophecy and whats so significant about them
I dont think most people understand what a Christian is
I think we understand
It is certainly not what I see a lot in churches Rather I think it
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods
sake
Well sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now
Dont waste any time
keith
preprocess doc Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
<dxb105.734155421@aries> <1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu>
<dxb105.734495289@virgo> <1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
Lines: 9
This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
they will simply be able to afford more stuff.
Graydon
after prepro Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu
1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
Lines 9
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff
Graydon
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr14.132813.16343@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> Anyhow, on the basis of the apparent success of Islamic banks, it seems
> to me that the statement that a zero-interest economy cannot survive in
> today's world may be a bit premature.
I'm sure zero-intested economical systems survive on a small-scale,
co-ops is not an Islamic invention, and we have co-operatives working
all around the world. However such systems don't stand the corruption
of a large scale operation. Actually, nothing could handle human
greed, IMHO. Not even Allah :-).
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 16
In article 1993Apr1413281316343monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
Anyhow on the basis of the apparent success of Islamic banks it seems
to me that the statement that a zerointerest economy cannot survive in
todays world may be a bit premature
Im sure zerointested economical systems survive on a smallscale
coops is not an Islamic invention and we have cooperatives working
all around the world However such systems dont stand the corruption
of a large scale operation Actually nothing could handle human
greed IMHO Not even Allah
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
In-Reply-To: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu's message of 15 Apr 93 11: 17:13 -0600
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
<1993Apr15.111713.4726@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>
Lines: 18
a> In article <1qi156INNf9n@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno) writes:
>
..stuff deleted...
>
> Which brings me to the point of my posting. How many people out there have
> been around alt.atheism since 1990? I've done my damnedest to stay on top of
...more stuff deleted...
Hmm, USENET got it's collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after I
switched to engineering. I'd say I started reading alt.atheism around 1988-89.
I've probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though.
I'll never understand how people can find the time to write so much. I
can barely keep up as it is.
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Where are they now
InReplyTo acoopermacccmacalstredus message of 15 Apr 93 11 1713 0600
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
1993Apr151117134726macccmacalstredu
Lines 18
a In article 1qi156INNf9nsenatorbedfellowMITEDU tcbrunoathenamitedu Tom Bruno writes
stuff deleted
Which brings me to the point of my posting How many people out there have
been around altatheism since 1990 Ive done my damnedest to stay on top of
more stuff deleted
Hmm USENET got its collective hooks into me around 1987 or so right after I
switched to engineering Id say I started reading altatheism around 198889
Ive probably not posted more than 50 messages in the time since then though
Ill never understand how people can find the time to write so much I
can barely keep up as it is
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 25
In <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca> agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes:
>In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|> 3. On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
The Command Loss Timer is a timer that does just what its name says;
it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving
commands. Upon expiration of the Command Loss Timer, I believe the
probe starts a 'search for Earth' sequence (involving antenna pointing
and attitude changes which consume fuel) to try to reestablish
communications. No-ops are sent periodically through those periods
when there are no real commands to be sent, just so the probe knows
that we haven't forgotten about it.
Hope that's clear enough to be comprehensible.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Keywords Galileo JPL
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 25
In 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes
In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
3 On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
The Command Loss Timer is a timer that does just what its name says
it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving
commands Upon expiration of the Command Loss Timer I believe the
probe starts a search for Earth sequence involving antenna pointing
and attitude changes which consume fuel to try to reestablish
communications Noops are sent periodically through those periods
when there are no real commands to be sent just so the probe knows
that we havent forgotten about it
Hope thats clear enough to be comprehensible
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 49
In <2943927496.1.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>DATE: 14 Apr 1993 23:52:11 GMT
>>FROM: Frank O'Dwyer <frank@D012S658.uucp>
>>
>>In article <1993Apr14.102810.6059@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>
>>Just borrowing your post, Mr. Rice...
>>
>>#In <2943656910.0.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>#>Are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind
>>#>the massacres in East Timor? It is certainly odd that so many of the worlds
>>#>massacres occur along religious lines, independently of any claims to a
>>#>democratic form of government. Are Ireland and Northern Ireland considered
>>#>democracies? Would you attribute their problems to democracy even though
>>#>they are democracies? Which motivates them more, religion or democracy?
>>
>>Mr. Rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that Islam is evil
>>because some of those who claim to follow it are evil, not asserting that
>>democracy causes massacres, as I read it.
>That is right, he was. And I was pointing out that his use of Indonesians
>killing the East Timorese as a result of _democracy_ was a bit weak because
>democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in Indonesia
>from what I remember. East Timor was a former Portguese territory which was
>forcibly annexed by Indonesia. Last I heard over 10,000 Indonesians have
>died trying to keep East Timor a part of Indonesia. Being a former
>Portuguese colony, there is a strong Catholic influence in East Timor as I
>recall. So it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being
>fought between people who just "happen" to have different religions. Purely
>coincidental, I guess. But then the real motivation is to get the vote out
>and make democracy work in Indonesia.
I pointed out the secession movement in Aceh which has also been
brutally dealt with in the past by the Indonesian government. The
harshly with all secessionist movements.
the evidence, it appears to me that the Indonesian government has dealt
very harshly with all secession movements.
I know that the head of the Indonesian armed forces for a very long time
was Benny Murdani -- a "Christian". Indonesia has been heavy handed in
East Timor for a long time , even when Murdani was head of the armed
forces. The people who make up the
Indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests,
not religious ones.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 49
In 29439274961p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
DATE 14 Apr 1993 235211 GMT
FROM Frank ODwyer
In article 1993Apr141028106059monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
Just borrowing your post Mr Rice
In 29436569100p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
Are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind
the massacres in East Timor It is certainly odd that so many of the worlds
massacres occur along religious lines independently of any claims to a
democratic form of government Are Ireland and Northern Ireland considered
democracies Would you attribute their problems to democracy even though
they are democracies Which motivates them more religion or democracy
Mr Rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that Islam is evil
because some of those who claim to follow it are evil not asserting that
democracy causes massacres as I read it
That is right he was And I was pointing out that his use of Indonesians
killing the East Timorese as a result of _democracy_ was a bit weak because
democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in Indonesia
from what I remember East Timor was a former Portguese territory which was
forcibly annexed by Indonesia Last I heard over 10000 Indonesians have
died trying to keep East Timor a part of Indonesia Being a former
Portuguese colony there is a strong Catholic influence in East Timor as I
recall So it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being
fought between people who just happen to have different religions Purely
coincidental I guess But then the real motivation is to get the vote out
and make democracy work in Indonesia
I pointed out the secession movement in Aceh which has also been
brutally dealt with in the past by the Indonesian government The
harshly with all secessionist movements
the evidence it appears to me that the Indonesian government has dealt
very harshly with all secession movements
I know that the head of the Indonesian armed forces for a very long time
was Benny Murdani a Christian Indonesia has been heavy handed in
East Timor for a long time even when Murdani was head of the armed
forces The people who make up the
Indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests
not religious ones
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: flb@flb.optiplan.fi's message of Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:01:38 GMT
In article <C5xr2w.Dnw.1@cs.cmu.edu> flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
> Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
> please try to remember that there are more human activities than
> those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
> Priesthood.
Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may
freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..
The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
the merchants (aka Profiting Caste [sic])
for their rise to power, has it?
;-)
* Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" *
* Ya know... you penguin types offend me. ... *
* My Gosh... Life is offensive!! *
* Offensensitivity. - BB 1984 *
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto flbflboptiplanfis message of Fri 23 Apr 1993 120138 GMT
In article flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes
From Phil G Fraering
Finally this isnt the Bronze Age []
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
Priesthood
Right the Profiting Caste is blessed by God and may
freely blare its presence in the evening twilight
The Priesthood has never quite forgiven
the merchants aka Profiting Caste [sic]
for their rise to power has it
Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory
steinlylickucscedu standard disclaimer
Ya know you penguin types offend me
My Gosh Life is offensive
Offensensitivity BB 1984
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>>Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over?
>Because you rarely ever answer them.
Nope, I've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple
times.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over
Because you rarely ever answer them
Nope Ive answered each question posed and most were answered multiple
times
keith
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 31
In article <2BCC892B.21864@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>In article <115290@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>Well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
>>would not be relevant to you. I can understand your fear of persecution
>>and I share it even more than you (being muslim), however Rushdie's
>>behavior was not completely excusable.
>Why should a fatwa issued by Khomeini be relevant to anyone who
>doesn't live in Iran?
Issued by Khomeini it shouldn't be relevant to anyone. But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect.
> Who is it that decides whether Rushdie's behavior is excusable?
Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning,
if you are talking about a weak sense of "excuse." It depends on what
sense of "excuse" you have in mind.
> And who cares if you think it is inexcusable?
Only someone who thinks my opinion is important, obviously.
Obviously you don't care, nor do I care that you don't care.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 31
In article 2BCC892B21864icsuciedu bvickersicsuciedu Brett J Vickers writes
In article 115290buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
would not be relevant to you I can understand your fear of persecution
and I share it even more than you being muslim however Rushdies
behavior was not completely excusable
Why should a fatwa issued by Khomeini be relevant to anyone who
doesnt live in Iran
Issued by Khomeini it shouldnt be relevant to anyone But issued
by an honest and learned scholar of Islam it would be relevant to
any muslim as it would be contrary to Islamic law which all muslims
are required to respect
Who is it that decides whether Rushdies behavior is excusable
Anyone sufficiently well versed in Islamic law and capable of reasoning
if you are talking about a weak sense of excuse It depends on what
sense of excuse you have in mind
And who cares if you think it is inexcusable
Only someone who thinks my opinion is important obviously
Obviously you dont care nor do I care that you dont care
Gregg
preprocess doc From: hdsteven@solitude.Stanford.EDU (H. D. Stevens)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: stanford
Lines: 59
In article <1993Apr21.190156.7769@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
|> >Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
|> >What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
|> >than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?
|>
|>
|> The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton
|> is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
|> which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
|> launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
|> are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
|> up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
|> thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
|> Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know
|> how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
|> bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
|> and erected on the pad?
The Centaur that is being built for T4 would be a better bet to integrate
onto the Proton as the T4/Centaur is designed for the Extremely Harsh
envorinment of the T4 launch. It is also closer to 4 m in diameter.
You've hit on the real kicker, however. The Centaur is pressure stabilized.
It cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks. Additionally,
the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to ~+/- 5 psi.
That is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train. The pressure
stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance. On numerous occasions
(when I was there 88-91) the AF wanted to see what it would take to make
a non-pressure stabilized centaur. The answer -- a centaur not worth launching.
The Atlas/Centaur does not require on-pad integration, however the T4/Centaur
does. I believe the on-pad integration is to a great extent due to the
cleanliness requirements and PFL configuration, so maybe something can be
done there........
|>
|> They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
|> (unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
|> any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
|> US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
|> problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention.
The addition of LOX/LH facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it
lifts off. A LHe facility is also needed. I don't know what the proton uses
for fuel, but since they are derived from ICBM's I would suspect that they
use storable propellants which don't have the ullage problem that cryo's
do. If there is no cryo at the sight at all, the addition of these systems
could be big $$, not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with
providing centaur GSE to Russia. That issue alone might be enough to kill
this idea.
--
H.D. Stevens
Stanford University Email:hdsteven@sun-valley.stanford.edu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory Phone: (415) 725-3293 (Lab)
Durand Building (415) 722-3296 (Bullpen)
Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: (415) 725-3377
after prepro From hdstevensolitudeStanfordEDU H D Stevens
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization stanford
Lines 59
In article 1993Apr211901567769lmpsbbscommmotcom dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk writes
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now
The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton
is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad
The Centaur that is being built for T4 would be a better bet to integrate
onto the Proton as the T4Centaur is designed for the Extremely Harsh
envorinment of the T4 launch It is also closer to 4 m in diameter
Youve hit on the real kicker however The Centaur is pressure stabilized
It cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks Additionally
the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to 5 psi
That is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train The pressure
stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance On numerous occasions
when I was there 8891 the AF wanted to see what it would take to make
a nonpressure stabilized centaur The answer a centaur not worth launching
The AtlasCentaur does not require onpad integration however the T4Centaur
does I believe the onpad integration is to a great extent due to the
cleanliness requirements and PFL configuration so maybe something can be
done there
They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention
The addition of LOXLH facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it
lifts off A LHe facility is also needed I dont know what the proton uses
for fuel but since they are derived from ICBMs I would suspect that they
use storable propellants which dont have the ullage problem that cryos
do If there is no cryo at the sight at all the addition of these systems
could be big not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with
providing centaur GSE to Russia That issue alone might be enough to kill
this idea
HD Stevens
Stanford University Emailhdstevensunvalleystanfordedu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory Phone 415 7253293 Lab
Durand Building 415 7223296 Bullpen
Stanford CA 94305 Fax 415 7253377
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 24
higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
>> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>> Sails. [...]
>> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?
Bill says ...
>Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman,
>a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, Josh),
I presume the one you refer to is "Space Sailing" by Jerome L. Wright. He
worked on solar sails while at JPL and as CEO of General Astronautics. I'll
furnish ordering info upon request.
The Friedman book is called "Starsailing: Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel."
It was available from the Planetary Society a few years ago, I don't know if
it still is.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 24
higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails []
Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project
Bill says
Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out Josh
I presume the one you refer to is Space Sailing by Jerome L Wright He
worked on solar sails while at JPL and as CEO of General Astronautics Ill
furnish ordering info upon request
The Friedman book is called Starsailing Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel
It was available from the Planetary Society a few years ago I dont know if
it still is
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: Andrew Rogers <rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
X-Xxdate: Wed, 21 Apr 93 16:03:51 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Company
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 9
In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> Don Schiewer,
schiewer@pa881a.inland.com writes:
>What is the deal with life on Mars? I save the "face" and heard
>associated theories. (which sound thin to me)
>
>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
>Does anyone buy all the life theories?
try alt.alien.visitors
after prepro From Andrew Rogers
Subject Re Life on Mars
XXxdate Wed 21 Apr 93 160351 GMT
Organization Lockheed Engineering Sciences Company
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 9
In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer
schiewerpa881ainlandcom writes
What is the deal with life on Mars I save the face and heard
associated theories which sound thin to me
Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Does anyone buy all the life theories
try altalienvisitors
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list
Supersedes: <reminder_734971619@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Expires: 7 May 1993 17:25:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
This notice will be posted weekly in sci.space, sci.astro, and
sci.space.shuttle.
The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for sci.space and sci.astro is
posted approximately monthly. It also covers many questions that come up on
sci.space.shuttle (for shuttle launch dates, see below).
The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date, so a copy may be in your
news spool directory (look at old articles in sci.space). If not, here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting:
(1) If your machine is on the Internet, it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) in directory
pub/SPACE/FAQ.
(2) Otherwise, send email to 'archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov'
containing the single line:
help
The archive server will return directions on how to use it. To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory, send email containing the lines:
send space FAQ/Index
send space FAQ/faq1
Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions.
Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
sci.space.shuttle. A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/manifest and may be requested from the email
archive-server with 'send space FAQ/manifest'. Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings.
Do not post followups to this article; respond to the author.
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Weekly reminder for Frequently Asked Questions list
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 36
Distribution world
Expires 7 May 1993 172540 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
This notice will be posted weekly in scispace sciastro and
scispaceshuttle
The Frequently Asked Questions FAQ list for scispace and sciastro is
posted approximately monthly It also covers many questions that come up on
scispaceshuttle for shuttle launch dates see below
The FAQ is posted with a long expiration date so a copy may be in your
news spool directory look at old articles in scispace If not here are
two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting
1 If your machine is on the Internet it can be obtained by anonymous
FTP from the SPACE archive at amesarcnasagov 128102183 in directory
pubSPACEFAQ
2 Otherwise send email to archiveserveramesarcnasagov
containing the single line
help
The archive server will return directions on how to use it To get an
index of files in the FAQ directory send email containing the lines
send space FAQIndex
send space FAQfaq1
Use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer
your questions
Shuttle launch dates are posted by Ken Hollis periodically in
scispaceshuttle A copy of his manifest is now available in the Ames
archive in pubSPACEFAQmanifest and may be requested from the email
archiveserver with send space FAQmanifest Please get this document
instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings
Do not post followups to this article respond to the author
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 24
In article <house.734841689@helios>, house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house) writes:
|> marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall) writes:
|>
|> >healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
|>
|> >> you might think "oh yeah. then why didn't god destroy it in the bud
|> >>before it got to the point it is now--with millions through the
|> >>ages suffering along in life?"
|> >> the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was
|> >>better than God's. God is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way
|> >>is better than God's. we all know what that has brought.
|>
|> >Come on! God is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the
|> >well-being of billions? I seriously doubt it. Having read the Bible
|> >twice, I never got the impression that God and Satan were working in some
|> >sort of cooperative arrangement.
|>
|> Read the book of Job.
|>
Oh, that was just a bet.
Brian /-|-\
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re free moral agency
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 24
In article househeliosusqEDUAU ron house writes
marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall writes
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
you might think oh yeah then why didnt god destroy it in the bud
before it got to the point it is nowwith millions through the
ages suffering along in life
the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was
better than Gods God is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way
is better than Gods we all know what that has brought
Come on God is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the
wellbeing of billions I seriously doubt it Having read the Bible
twice I never got the impression that God and Satan were working in some
sort of cooperative arrangement
Read the book of Job
Oh that was just a bet
Brian \
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 54
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
(reference line trimmed)
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
[...]
>There is a good deal more confusion here. You started off with the
>assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
>here, you finished up with a recursive definition. Murder is
>"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
>requires an appeal to morality.
Yes.
>Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little. Now you are
>asking what is the "goal"? What do you mean by "goal?". Are you
>suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
>and we form our morals to achieve it?
Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
propogation of the species. Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence, which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You see,
to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system. That is,
we shall be moral unto what end?
>>Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule. And, I thought I had
>>defined murder as an intentional killing of a non-murderer, against his will.
>>And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
>>innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not.
>>I fail to see what this has to do with anything. I never claimed that our
>>system of morality was an objective one.
>I thought that was your very first claim. That there was
>some kind of "objective" morality, and that an example of that was
>that murder is wrong. If you don't want to claim that any more,
>that's fine.
Well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system. However, I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral. I think that
it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect.
>And by the way, you don't seem to understand the difference between
>"arbitrary" and "objective". If Keith Schneider "defines" murder
>to be this that and the other, that's arbitrary. Jon Livesey may
>still say "Well, according to my personal system of morality, all
>killing of humans against their will is murder, and wrong, and what
>the legal definition of murder may be in the USA, Kuweit, Saudi
>Arabia, or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me".
Well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re There is a good deal more confusion here You started off with the
assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
here you finished up with a recursive definition Murder is
objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
requires an appeal to morality
Yes
Now you have switch targets a little but only a little Now you are
asking what is the goal What do you mean by goal Are you
suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
and we form our morals to achieve it
Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
propogation of the species Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness You see
to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system That is
we shall be moral unto what end
Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule And I thought I had
defined murder as an intentional killing of a nonmurderer against his will
And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not
I fail to see what this has to do with anything I never claimed that our
system of morality was an objective one
I thought that was your very first claim That there was
some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was
that murder is wrong If you dont want to claim that any more
thats fine
Well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system However I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral I think that
it is a very good approximation but we cant be perfect
And by the way you dont seem to understand the difference between
arbitrary and objective If Keith Schneider defines murder
to be this that and the other thats arbitrary Jon Livesey may
still say Well according to my personal system of morality all
killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what
the legal definition of murder may be in the USA Kuweit Saudi
Arabia or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me
Well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning
keith
preprocess doc From: hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Nntp-Posting-Host: math30.mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de
Organization: Math Madhouse Bielefeld, Germany
Lines: 26
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au
(Enzo Liguori) writes:
> hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.
>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
selling every bit that promises to make money? I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.
Another depressed planetary citizen,
hoover
--
Uwe "Hoover" Schuerkamp hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de
Clear Skies --- Fight light pollution!
after prepro From hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
NntpPostingHost math30mathematikunibielefeldde
Organization Math Madhouse Bielefeld Germany
Lines 26
In article enzoresearchcanonozau
Enzo Liguori writes
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers
Another depressed planetary citizen
hoover
Uwe Hoover Schuerkamp hoovermathematikunibielefeldde
Clear Skies Fight light pollution
preprocess doc From: Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado)
Subject: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Lines: 32
Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
feed), I would be willing to feed it to them. I have a nice
offline message reader/editor, an automated modem "mailer"
program which will pick up mail bundles (quickly and easily),
and an INSTALL.EXE to set them up painlessly. No charge for
the sci.space feed, though you have to dial Washington, D.C.
This is NOT a BBS -- it's a store & forward system for mail
bundles, with minimum connect times. (I'm used to overseas
calls.) (This is not an offer for a free feed for any other
particular newsgroups.) Speeds of up to 14400 (v32bis) are
supported. VIP's might be offered other free services, such
as Internet address and other functionality.
I get my feed from UUNET and run a 4-line hub. I've been
hubbing for years -- I have an extremely reliable hub.
The software I provide runs under MS-DOS (and OS/2 and Windows
as a DOS box). Other, compatible software packages exist for
the MacIntosh and Unix.
Any responses should be private and go to:
mark.prado@permanet.org
(By the way, to all, my apologies for the public traffic on my
glib question. I really didn't expect public replys. But thanks
to Bill Higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead.)
* Origin: PerManNet FTSC <=> Internet gateway (1:109/349.2)
after prepro From MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado
Subject Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Lines 32
Reply address markpradopermanetorg
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them I have a nice
offline message readereditor an automated modem mailer
program which will pick up mail bundles quickly and easily
and an INSTALLEXE to set them up painlessly No charge for
the scispace feed though you have to dial Washington DC
This is NOT a BBS its a store forward system for mail
bundles with minimum connect times Im used to overseas
calls This is not an offer for a free feed for any other
particular newsgroups Speeds of up to 14400 v32bis are
supported VIPs might be offered other free services such
as Internet address and other functionality
I get my feed from UUNET and run a 4line hub Ive been
hubbing for years I have an extremely reliable hub
The software I provide runs under MSDOS and OS2 and Windows
as a DOS box Other compatible software packages exist for
the MacIntosh and Unix
Any responses should be private and go to
markpradopermanetorg
By the way to all my apologies for the public traffic on my
glib question I really didnt expect public replys But thanks
to Bill Higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead
Origin PerManNet FTSC Internet gateway 11093492
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr22.214735.22733@Princeton.EDU> phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser) writes:
>A transporter operator!?!? That better be one important transport. Usually
>it is a nameless ensign who does the job. For such a guest appearance I would
>have expected a more visible/meaningful role.
Christian Slater, only gota cameo on ST6,
and besides.
Maybe she can't act:-)
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr2221473522733PrincetonEDU phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser writes
A transporter operator That better be one important transport Usually
it is a nameless ensign who does the job For such a guest appearance I would
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role
Christian Slater only gota cameo on ST6
and besides
Maybe she cant act
pat
preprocess doc From: schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sal-sun121.usc.edu
In article <1993Apr19.130503.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
|> > With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
|> > by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
|> > that might just work.
|> >
|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
|> > Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
|> > to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
|> >
|> > --
|> > gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
|> > theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
|> ====
|> If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
|> resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
|> in Australia..
|> Anybody game for a contest!
|>
|> ==
|> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
Oh gee, a billion dollars! That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study! Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
Peter F. Schaefer
after prepro From schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 29
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost salsun121uscedu
In article 1993Apr191305031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
in Australia
Anybody game for a contest
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Oh gee a billion dollars Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study Happy Happy JOY JOY
Peter F Schaefer
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 32
In article <1993Apr10.130112.25440@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
>>>And no, in Western countries, it isn't a "legal" concept
>>>at all, so it's not the slightest bit pertinent to the
>>>topic, which is a British author living in the United
>>>Kingdom under the protection of British law.
>>Ah, yes, I keep forgetting, governments are superior entities to
>>religious organizations. Forgive me -- the gun is the higher law.
>This is degenerating to 'Zumder logic. Of course governments are
>superior entities, they are elected by the people, whereas religious
>leaders certainly are not.
Perhaps not in Christianity, but in Islam the choice of religious
leaders is to be made by the people. So much for your superiority
argument.
> Those who the people trust to make the law
>obviously represents the higher law. That is democracy.
Democracy is a basic element of Islam. Learn that one!
Ever notice that the so-called "fundamentalists" in Algeria
who are being repressed by the secular government won in
free and democratic elections.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 32
In article 1993Apr1013011225440bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote
And no in Western countries it isnt a legal concept
at all so its not the slightest bit pertinent to the
topic which is a British author living in the United
Kingdom under the protection of British law
Ah yes I keep forgetting governments are superior entities to
religious organizations Forgive me the gun is the higher law
This is degenerating to Zumder logic Of course governments are
superior entities they are elected by the people whereas religious
leaders certainly are not
Perhaps not in Christianity but in Islam the choice of religious
leaders is to be made by the people So much for your superiority
argument
Those who the people trust to make the law
obviously represents the higher law That is democracy
Democracy is a basic element of Islam Learn that one
Ever notice that the socalled fundamentalists in Algeria
who are being repressed by the secular government won in
free and democratic elections
Gregg
preprocess doc From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 39
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:
>>I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
>>with the Atlanta Olympics.
>Even worse, the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
>orbiting billboard. Considering the caliber of people running this city,
>there's no telling what we're going to have leering down at us from orbit.
I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity. For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s. Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer.
A small dispersal charge embedded in about 20 kg of sand or
birdshot (depending on the nature of the structure) would be
the payload. I am sure the whole project is well within
the capability of the amateur rocketry community.
It sounds like a good Science Fair project--'Reduction
of Light Pollution Through Applied Ballistics'.
Or, it could be part of the Challenge Prize being discussed
here: $1 billion for the first person to spend 1 year
on the moon, $1 million for the first erradication of
an orbital eyesore/CCD burner. I wouldpledge $1000
for the first person to bring it down, and I am sure
there are at least 999 other astronomers, nature lovers,
or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise.
Of course, a Gerald Bull solution might be simpler.
(Either the solution Gerald Bull would apply--the use
of a large caliber gun; or the solution which was applied
to Gerald Bull--the use of a small caliber gun.)
--
David M. Palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov
after prepro From palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 39
NNTPPostingHost alumnicaltechedu
matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes
In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes
I hear that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics
Even worse the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard Considering the caliber of people running this city
theres no telling what were going to have leering down at us from orbit
I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fueloxidizer
A small dispersal charge embedded in about 20 kg of sand or
birdshot depending on the nature of the structure would be
the payload I am sure the whole project is well within
the capability of the amateur rocketry community
It sounds like a good Science Fair projectReduction
of Light Pollution Through Applied Ballistics
Or it could be part of the Challenge Prize being discussed
here 1 billion for the first person to spend 1 year
on the moon 1 million for the first erradication of
an orbital eyesoreCCD burner I wouldpledge 1000
for the first person to bring it down and I am sure
there are at least 999 other astronomers nature lovers
or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise
Of course a Gerald Bull solution might be simpler
Either the solution Gerald Bull would applythe use
of a large caliber gun or the solution which was applied
to Gerald Bullthe use of a small caliber gun
David M Palmer palmeralumnicaltechedu
palmertgrsgsfcnasagov
preprocess doc From: Lawrence Curcio <lc2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: Doctoral student, Public Policy and Management, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com>
Let's see. These aren't, in a strict sense, amateur rockets. That term
denotes rockets, the engines of which are constructed by the user. The
rockets you describe are called HPR, or high power rockets, to
distinguish them from (smaller) model rockets. They use factory-made
ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines
with graphite nozzles. The engines are classified by impulse. A "D"
engine, for example, can have no more than 20 newton-seconds of impulse.
An "F" engine can have no more than 40 ns. Each letter corresponds to a
doubling of the maximum impulse. So far, engines up to size "O" are
available pretty much off the shelf. Engines of size H and above are
shipped as Class B explosives, and as such are controlled. Engines of
size F and below are shipped as Class C explosives, and are not as
controlled. Class F engines, BTW, are not HPR engines, but model rocket
engines. (Class G engines go in and out of legal limbo.)
There is an HPR Society, The Tripoli Rocket Society, I believe, which
holds events at various sites throughout the year, with all legalities
(FAA waiver included) taken care of. The National Association of
Rocketry is more concerned with engines below H, though it is involved
in HPR as well. These societies certify users of HPR rockets, and
companies will not sell to uncertified individuals.
Bottom Line: It's legit. I suggest you send for a catalog - but forget
the dynamite, will ya?
-Larry C.
after prepro From Lawrence Curcio
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization Doctoral student Public Policy and Management Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost po3andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
Lets see These arent in a strict sense amateur rockets That term
denotes rockets the engines of which are constructed by the user The
rockets you describe are called HPR or high power rockets to
distinguish them from smaller model rockets They use factorymade
ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines
with graphite nozzles The engines are classified by impulse A D
engine for example can have no more than 20 newtonseconds of impulse
An F engine can have no more than 40 ns Each letter corresponds to a
doubling of the maximum impulse So far engines up to size O are
available pretty much off the shelf Engines of size H and above are
shipped as Class B explosives and as such are controlled Engines of
size F and below are shipped as Class C explosives and are not as
controlled Class F engines BTW are not HPR engines but model rocket
engines Class G engines go in and out of legal limbo
There is an HPR Society The Tripoli Rocket Society I believe which
holds events at various sites throughout the year with all legalities
FAA waiver included taken care of The National Association of
Rocketry is more concerned with engines below H though it is involved
in HPR as well These societies certify users of HPR rockets and
companies will not sell to uncertified individuals
Bottom Line Its legit I suggest you send for a catalog but forget
the dynamite will ya
Larry C
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism : Evidence?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 21
In article <1qibo2$f4o@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>
>#>In the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more
>#>dangerous than atheist fanatics, I'll continue to be wary of fanatics of
>#>any stripe.
>#
>#I think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot.
>
>Fair point, actually. I mentioned theists and atheists, but left out
>agnostics. Mea culpa.
>
No wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries
to pass as an agnostic. I still remember your post about your daughter
singing Chrismas Carols and your feelings of it well.
By the way, would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions
you left open when you ceased to respond last time?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Theism Evidence
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 21
In article 1qibo2f4ohorusapmchpsnide
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more
dangerous than atheist fanatics Ill continue to be wary of fanatics of
any stripe
I think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot
Fair point actually I mentioned theists and atheists but left out
agnostics Mea culpa
No wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries
to pass as an agnostic I still remember your post about your daughter
singing Chrismas Carols and your feelings of it well
By the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions
you left open when you ceased to respond last time
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Activities in Tucson, AZ ?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 7
I would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational
opportunities in the Tucson, Arizona area. E-mail responses appreciated.
My mail feed is intermittent, so please try one or all of these addresses.
Ben Muniz w(818)586-3578 MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@beach.rockwell.com
or: bmuniz@a1tms1.remnet.ab.com MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Activities in Tucson AZ
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 7
I would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational
opportunities in the Tucson Arizona area Email responses appreciated
My mail feed is intermittent so please try one or all of these addresses
Ben Muniz w8185863578 MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetbeachrockwellcom
or bmuniza1tms1remnetabcom MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?
Given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by?
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges?
my own pet theory is that it's Flying saucers entering
hyperspace :-)
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away
Given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges
my own pet theory is that its Flying saucers entering
hyperspace
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in
pat
preprocess doc From: dchien@hougen.seas.ucla.edu (David H. Chien)
Subject: Orbit data - help needed
Organization: SEASnet, University of California, Los Angeles
Lines: 43
I have the "osculating elements at perigee" of an orbit, which I need
to convert to something useful, preferably distance from the earth
in evenly spaced time intervals. A GSM coordinate system is preferable,
but I convert from other systems. C, pascal, or fortran code, or
if you can point me to a book or something that'd be great.
here's the first few lines of the file.
0 ()
1 (2X, A3, 7X, A30)
2 (2X, I5, 2X, A3, 2X, E24.18)
3 (4X, A3, 7X, E24.18)
1 SMA SEMI-MAJOR AXIS
1 ECC ECCENTRICITY
1 INC INCLINATION
1 OMG RA OF ASCENDING NODE
1 POM ARGUMENT OF PERICENTRE
1 TRA TRUE ANOMALY
1 HAP APOCENTRE HEIGHT
1 HPE PERICENTRE HEIGHT
2 3 BEG 0.167290000000000000E+05
3 SMA 0.829159999999995925E+05
3 ECC 0.692307999999998591E+00
3 INC 0.899999999999999858E+02
3 OMG 0.184369999999999994E+03
3 POM 0.336549999999999955E+03
3 TRA 0.359999999999999943E+03
3 HAP 0.133941270127999174E+06
3 HPE 0.191344498719999910E+05
2 1 REF 0.167317532658774153E+05
3 SMA 0.829125167527418671E+05
3 ECC 0.691472268118590319E+00
3 INC 0.899596754214342091E+02
3 OMG 0.184377521828175002E+03
3 POM 0.336683788851850579E+03
3 TRA 0.153847166458030088E-05
3 HAP 0.133866082767180880E+06
3 HPE 0.192026707383028306E+05
Thanks in advance,
larry kepko
lkepko@igpp.ucla.edu
after prepro From dchienhougenseasuclaedu David H Chien
Subject Orbit data help needed
Organization SEASnet University of California Los Angeles
Lines 43
I have the osculating elements at perigee of an orbit which I need
to convert to something useful preferably distance from the earth
in evenly spaced time intervals A GSM coordinate system is preferable
but I convert from other systems C pascal or fortran code or
if you can point me to a book or something thatd be great
heres the first few lines of the file
0
1 2X A3 7X A30
2 2X I5 2X A3 2X E2418
3 4X A3 7X E2418
1 SMA SEMIMAJOR AXIS
1 ECC ECCENTRICITY
1 INC INCLINATION
1 OMG RA OF ASCENDING NODE
1 POM ARGUMENT OF PERICENTRE
1 TRA TRUE ANOMALY
1 HAP APOCENTRE HEIGHT
1 HPE PERICENTRE HEIGHT
2 3 BEG 0167290000000000000E05
3 SMA 0829159999999995925E05
3 ECC 0692307999999998591E00
3 INC 0899999999999999858E02
3 OMG 0184369999999999994E03
3 POM 0336549999999999955E03
3 TRA 0359999999999999943E03
3 HAP 0133941270127999174E06
3 HPE 0191344498719999910E05
2 1 REF 0167317532658774153E05
3 SMA 0829125167527418671E05
3 ECC 0691472268118590319E00
3 INC 0899596754214342091E02
3 OMG 0184377521828175002E03
3 POM 0336683788851850579E03
3 TRA 0153847166458030088E05
3 HAP 0133866082767180880E06
3 HPE 0192026707383028306E05
Thanks in advance
larry kepko
lkepkoigppuclaedu
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 28
In article <C4w5pv.JxD@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
>that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
>be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. There is no need
>for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
>no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
>physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
>determnined.
This posts contains too many fallacies to respond too.
1) The abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of
freewill.
You have not shown this. You have not even attempted to. However,
the existance of an Omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals.*
* Posted over five months ago. No one has been able to refute it,
nor give any reasonable reasons against it.
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 28
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature exclusively There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
determnined
This posts contains too many fallacies to respond too
1 The abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of
freewill
You have not shown this You have not even attempted to However
the existance of an Omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals
Posted over five months ago No one has been able to refute it
nor give any reasonable reasons against it
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: enf021@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Achurist)
Subject: Re: Abyss: breathing fluids
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Coventry University
Lines: 31
In article <93089.204431GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> Callec Dradja <GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I am a bit nervous about posting this beacause it is begining to
>stray fron the topic of space but then again that doesn't seem to
>stop alot of other people. :-)
>
>With all of this talk about breathing at high pressures, I began
>to think about the movie Abyss. If you remember, in that movie one
>of the characters dove to great depths by wearing a suit that used
>a fluid that carries oxegen as opposed to some sort of gas. Now I
>have heard that mice can breath this fluid but for some reason, humans
>are unable to. Does anyone know more details about this?
>
>Gregson Vaux
>
I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 2-3 minutes.
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on
hold, or else!! That's about it. Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature. ~10 I think, depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course!
Acurist
after prepro From enf021cckcoventryacuk Achurist
Subject Re Abyss breathing fluids
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Coventry University
Lines 31
In article 93089204431GRV101psuvmpsuedu Callec Dradja writes
I am a bit nervous about posting this beacause it is begining to
stray fron the topic of space but then again that doesnt seem to
stop alot of other people
With all of this talk about breathing at high pressures I began
to think about the movie Abyss If you remember in that movie one
of the characters dove to great depths by wearing a suit that used
a fluid that carries oxegen as opposed to some sort of gas Now I
have heard that mice can breath this fluid but for some reason humans
are unable to Does anyone know more details about this
Gregson Vaux
I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 23 minutes
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on
hold or else Thats about it Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature 10 I think depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course
Acurist
preprocess doc From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: I don't beleive in you either.
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu
In article <1993Apr13.213055.818@antioc.antioch.edu> smauldin@antioc.antioch.edu writes:
>I stopped believing in you as well, long before the invention of technology.
>
>--GOD
>
Don't listen to this guy, he's just a crank. At first, this business
about being the "one true god" was tolerated by the rest of us,
but now it has gotten completely out of hand.
Besides, it really isn't so bad when people stop believing in you.
It's much more relaxing when mortals aren't always begging you for favors.
-- ZEUS
after prepro From siefermesteinuwashingtonedu Eric Sieferman
Subject Re I dont beleive in you either
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost steinuwashingtonedu
In article 1993Apr13213055818antiocantiochedu smauldinantiocantiochedu writes
I stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology
GOD
Dont listen to this guy hes just a crank At first this business
about being the one true god was tolerated by the rest of us
but now it has gotten completely out of hand
Besides it really isnt so bad when people stop believing in you
Its much more relaxing when mortals arent always begging you for favors
ZEUS
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: sgi
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr6.030734.28563@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer ) writes:
>
> I wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic
> (TM) viewpoint though. For all we know, the prophet's cousin and
> the Fourth Khalif Hazret-i Ali may have said this after a
> frustrating night with a woman.
That's very interesting. I wonder, are women's reactions
recorded after a frustrating night with a man? Is that
considered to be important?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Islam Dress Code for women
Organization sgi
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr603073428563ennewseasasuedu guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer writes
I wouldnt consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic
TM viewpoint though For all we know the prophets cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazreti Ali may have said this after a
frustrating night with a woman
Thats very interesting I wonder are womens reactions
recorded after a frustrating night with a man Is that
considered to be important
jon
preprocess doc From: xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Science News article on Federal R&D
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 8
Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal R&D funding.
Very briefly, all R&D is being shifted to gaining current
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility.
--
Chuck Divine
after prepro From xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Science News article on Federal RD
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 8
Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal RD funding
Very briefly all RD is being shifted to gaining current
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility
Chuck Divine
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured?
Lines: 9
The traditions of the church hold that all the "apostles" (meaning the 11
surviving disciples, Matthias, Barnabas and Paul) were martyred, except for
John. "Tradition" should be understood to read "early church writings other
than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures".
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured
Lines 9
The traditions of the church hold that all the apostles meaning the 11
surviving disciples Matthias Barnabas and Paul were martyred except for
John Tradition should be understood to read early church writings other
than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1ql8mdINN674@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
>>>or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden
>>>by the US Constitution.
>>Yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why
>>a) you have the Supreme Court, and b) it makes no sense to refer
>>to the Constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the
>>word "cruel".
>
>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution. They
>picked words whose meanings implied the intent. We have already looked
>in the dictionary to define the word. Isn't this sufficient?
We only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers
consider cruel and unusual punishment?
Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.
Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those
days ], etc.
All would be considered cruel under your definition.
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.
---
" Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "
John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Cruel was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden
by the US Constitution
Yes but they didnt say what they meant by cruel which is why
a you have the Supreme Court and b it makes no sense to refer
to the Constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the
word cruel
They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word Isnt this sufficient
We only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers
consider cruel and unusual punishment
Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine
Firing squad [ note not a clean way to die back in those
days ] etc
All would be considered cruel under your definition
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers
Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken
John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>> The probability that the "automobile system" will kill someone
>> innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to 1, just
>> like the court system.
>However, anyone who doesn't like the "automobile system" can
>opt out, as I have.
This isn't true. Many people are forced to use the "automobile system."
I certainly don't use it by choice. If there were other ways of getting
around, I'd do it.
>Secondly, we do try to make the "automobile system" as safe
>as possible, because we *do* recognize the danger to the
>innocent, whereas the US - the current example - is not trying
>to make the "Court System" safer, which it could fairly easily
>do by replacing fatal punishments with non-fatal punishments.
But I think that the Court system has been refined--over hundreds of
years in the US, Britain, and other countries. We have tried to make
it as fair as possible. Can it be made better (without removing the
death penalty)? Besides, life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment
to me.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re The probability that the automobile system will kill someone
innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to 1 just
like the court system
However anyone who doesnt like the automobile system can
opt out as I have
This isnt true Many people are forced to use the automobile system
I certainly dont use it by choice If there were other ways of getting
around Id do it
Secondly we do try to make the automobile system as safe
as possible because we do recognize the danger to the
innocent whereas the US the current example is not trying
to make the Court System safer which it could fairly easily
do by replacing fatal punishments with nonfatal punishments
But I think that the Court system has been refinedover hundreds of
years in the US Britain and other countries We have tried to make
it as fair as possible Can it be made better without removing the
death penalty Besides life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment
to me
keith
preprocess doc From: dnadams@nyx.cs.du.edu (Dean Adams)
Subject: Ariane v.56 Mission Data
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 114
ARIANESPACE FLIGHT 56
(Flight V.56 was originally intended to carry the Hughes HS-601 series
Galaxy IV satellite, but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight.)
The 56th Ariane launch is now scheduled to place the ASTRA 1C and ARSENE
satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit (GTO), with
inclination reduced to 5 degrees and apogee altitude increased by 150 km.
This will be the 28th launch of an Ariane 4 and the first in the 42L
configuration, with 2 liquid strap-on boosters (PAL). It will be launched
from the newly refurbished Ariane launch complex ELA 2, in Kourou - French
Guiana.
The launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is 3,147 kg
of which 2,944 kg represents the satellite mass. The total vehicle mass
at liftoff is 361,778 kg.
Required Orbit Characteristics:
Perigee Altitude ..... 200 km
Apogee Altitude ...... 36,160 km at injection
Inclination .......... 5 degrees
The Ariane 42L lift-off for Flight 56 is scheduled on Thursday,
April 29, 1993, as soon as possible within the following launch
window:
Kourou Time GMT (04/30/93) Washington, DC
21:52 - 22:50 00:52 - 01:50 20:52 - 21:50
LAUNCH VEHICLE:
Ariane 42L. This is a three-stage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid
fueled strap-on boosters. The first stage (L220) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by 4 liquid fueled Viking V engines. The second stage (L33)
is built by MBB Erno and is powered by a single Viking IV engine. Both the
Viking IV and V engines are manufactured by SEP. The first and second stages
use a biliquid UH25/N2O4 fuel. The third stage (H10) is built by Aerospatiale,
and is powered by a cryogenic H2/O2 fueled HM-7B engine built by SEP. The two
strap-on boosters (PAL) are each powered by a Viking VI engine, also built
by SEP, which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages.
The fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high on the pad.
It uses the Type 01 Ariane Short payload fairing.
Flight Profile:
+02:21 Liquid strap-on booster jettison
+03:11 First stage separation
+03:18 Second stage ignition
+04:10 Fairing jettison
+05:21 Second stage separation
+05:26 Third stage ignition
+17:30 Third stage shutdown / orbit injection
+19:56 ASTRA 1C separation
+22:36 Cyclade adapter separation
+24:26 ARSENE separation
+28:47 End of Ariane mission 56
PAYLOADS:
ASTRA 1C is the third spacecraft in the fleet of "Societe Europeenne
des Satellites" to broadcast direct TV to homes all over Europe.
Built by Hughes, it will be the second HS-601 launched by Ariane.
Total mass at lift-off .... 2,790 kg
Mass at GEO insertion ..... 1,700 kg
Dry mass .................. 1,180 kg
On-board power ............ 3,300 W (end of life)
Nominal lifetime .......... 15 years
Span of solar panels ...... 21 m
On-Orbit position ......... 19.2 degrees east, over Africa.
Transmission capacity:
34 channels in Ku-band, via 18 transponders.
In-flight operations:
Solar array deployment ............ about 6 days after lift-off
First of 3 apogee motor firings ... about 40 hours after lift-off
at 4th apogee
ARSENE is the first spacecraft built by the European Space Industry
for the benefit of the world amateur radio community.
Total mass at lift-off .... 154 kg
Mass at GEO insertion ..... 98 kg
Dry mass .................. 97 kg
On-board power ............ 42 W (end of life)
Nominal lifetime .......... 3 years
Spacecraft dimensions ..... 1.1m x .96m
Orbital parameters ........ 20000/36000 km, 0 inclination, period 17:30.
Transmission capacity:
S-band: 1 transponder at 2.446 ghz
VHF/UHF: 145/435 mhz
LAUNCH COVERAGE:
All Ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from Kourou.
Coverage begins at 30 minutes before launch and continues until
all payloads have been deployed. This mission will likely be carried
in the US on Galaxy 6, however it could be Galaxy 7 or another satellite.
(What is the European satellite normally used for Ariane coverage?)
-{ Dean Adams }-
after prepro From dnadamsnyxcsduedu Dean Adams
Subject Ariane v56 Mission Data
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math Comp Sci
Lines 114
ARIANESPACE FLIGHT 56
Flight V56 was originally intended to carry the Hughes HS601 series
Galaxy IV satellite but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight
The 56th Ariane launch is now scheduled to place the ASTRA 1C and ARSENE
satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit GTO with
inclination reduced to 5 degrees and apogee altitude increased by 150 km
This will be the 28th launch of an Ariane 4 and the first in the 42L
configuration with 2 liquid strapon boosters PAL It will be launched
from the newly refurbished Ariane launch complex ELA 2 in Kourou French
Guiana
The launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is 3147 kg
of which 2944 kg represents the satellite mass The total vehicle mass
at liftoff is 361778 kg
Required Orbit Characteristics
Perigee Altitude 200 km
Apogee Altitude 36160 km at injection
Inclination 5 degrees
The Ariane 42L liftoff for Flight 56 is scheduled on Thursday
April 29 1993 as soon as possible within the following launch
window
Kourou Time GMT 043093 Washington DC
2152 2250 0052 0150 2052 2150
LAUNCH VEHICLE
Ariane 42L This is a threestage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid
fueled strapon boosters The first stage L220 is built by Aerospatiale
and is powered by 4 liquid fueled Viking V engines The second stage L33
is built by MBB Erno and is powered by a single Viking IV engine Both the
Viking IV and V engines are manufactured by SEP The first and second stages
use a biliquid UH25N2O4 fuel The third stage H10 is built by Aerospatiale
and is powered by a cryogenic H2O2 fueled HM7B engine built by SEP The two
strapon boosters PAL are each powered by a Viking VI engine also built
by SEP which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages
The fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high on the pad
It uses the Type 01 Ariane Short payload fairing
Flight Profile
0221 Liquid strapon booster jettison
0311 First stage separation
0318 Second stage ignition
0410 Fairing jettison
0521 Second stage separation
0526 Third stage ignition
1730 Third stage shutdown orbit injection
1956 ASTRA 1C separation
2236 Cyclade adapter separation
2426 ARSENE separation
2847 End of Ariane mission 56
PAYLOADS
ASTRA 1C is the third spacecraft in the fleet of Societe Europeenne
des Satellites to broadcast direct TV to homes all over Europe
Built by Hughes it will be the second HS601 launched by Ariane
Total mass at liftoff 2790 kg
Mass at GEO insertion 1700 kg
Dry mass 1180 kg
Onboard power 3300 W end of life
Nominal lifetime 15 years
Span of solar panels 21 m
OnOrbit position 192 degrees east over Africa
Transmission capacity
34 channels in Kuband via 18 transponders
Inflight operations
Solar array deployment about 6 days after liftoff
First of 3 apogee motor firings about 40 hours after liftoff
at 4th apogee
ARSENE is the first spacecraft built by the European Space Industry
for the benefit of the world amateur radio community
Total mass at liftoff 154 kg
Mass at GEO insertion 98 kg
Dry mass 97 kg
Onboard power 42 W end of life
Nominal lifetime 3 years
Spacecraft dimensions 11m x 96m
Orbital parameters 2000036000 km 0 inclination period 1730
Transmission capacity
Sband 1 transponder at 2446 ghz
VHFUHF 145435 mhz
LAUNCH COVERAGE
All Ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from Kourou
Coverage begins at 30 minutes before launch and continues until
all payloads have been deployed This mission will likely be carried
in the US on Galaxy 6 however it could be Galaxy 7 or another satellite
What is the European satellite normally used for Ariane coverage
Dean Adams
preprocess doc From: mike@starburst.umd.edu (Michael F. Santangelo)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: University of Maryland, Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
Lines: 47
NNTP-Posting-Host: starburst.umd.edu
dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock) writes:
...text of options "A" and "B" deleted...
>Option C - Single Core Launch Station.
>This is the JSC lead option. Basically, you take a 23 ft diameter
>cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
>the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a
>regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
>motors, and launch the can. Some key features are:
> - Complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout
> - 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
> - body mounted radiators (which adds protection against
> micrometeroid & orbital debris)
> - 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end)
> - 7 berthing ports
> - a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet
> (twice the volume of skylab).
> - 7 floors, center passageway between floors
> - 10 kW of housekeeping power
Only 10KW?
> - graceful degradation with failures (8 power channels, 4 thermal
> loops, dual environmental control & life support system)
> - increased crew time for utilization
> - 1 micro-g thru out the core module
Ha! "North America Modular SPACE STATION construction" :-)
Same apprach, same reasoning: "construction occurs under assembly
line conditions, no random weather problems interupting site-work
on your home - better quality control" -- sounds like first "-"
point above :-)
Somehow I have a strange attraction for this idea (living in
a modular home maybe has altered my mind). The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSME's and
a nosecone on it and "just launching it." I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction).
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Michael F. Santangelo + Internet: mike@cbl.umd.edu [work]
Dept. Head-Computer & Network Systems + mike@kavishar.umd.edu [home]
UMCEES / CBL (Solomons Island) + BITNET: MIKE@UMUC [fwd to mike@cbl]
after prepro From mikestarburstumdedu Michael F Santangelo
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization University of Maryland Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
Lines 47
NNTPPostingHost starburstumdedu
dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock writes
text of options A and B deleted
Option C Single Core Launch Station
This is the JSC lead option Basically you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder thats 92 ft long slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors and launch the can Some key features are
Complete endtoend ground integration and checkout
4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
body mounted radiators which adds protection against
micrometeroid orbital debris
2 centerline docking ports one on each end
7 berthing ports
a single pressurized volume approximately 26000 cubic feet
twice the volume of skylab
7 floors center passageway between floors
10 kW of housekeeping power
Only 10KW
graceful degradation with failures 8 power channels 4 thermal
loops dual environmental control life support system
increased crew time for utilization
1 microg thru out the core module
Ha North America Modular SPACE STATION construction
Same apprach same reasoning construction occurs under assembly
line conditions no random weather problems interupting sitework
on your home better quality control sounds like first
point above
Somehow I have a strange attraction for this idea living in
a modular home maybe has altered my mind The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSMEs and
a nosecone on it and just launching it I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged inorbit construction
Michael F Santangelo Internet mikecblumdedu [work]
Dept HeadComputer Network Systems mikekavisharumdedu [home]
UMCEES CBL Solomons Island BITNET MIKEUMUC [fwd to mikecbl]
preprocess doc From: lazarus@katarina.dev.cdx.mot.com (John McGlaughlin)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: katarina.dev.cdx.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Lines: 18
rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross Borden) writes:
> Quick! Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:
> "Hey, I read sci.space!"
>Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
>(This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
>the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")
Don't you think it would be better to E-mail back to you that we read sci.space
so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get
BW'd to death. Or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into
a single post and save on header bandwidth.... Not meaning to be taken as a
flame it's late and we have to work toward a demo .... little punchy
--
-jftm-
after prepro From lazaruskatarinadevcdxmotcom John McGlaughlin
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost katarinadevcdxmotcom
Organization Motorola Codex Canton Massachusetts
Lines 18
rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross Borden writes
Quick Everyone who sees this post a reply that says
Hey I read scispace
Then we can count them and find out how many there are
This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways
Dont you think it would be better to Email back to you that we read scispace
so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get
BWd to death Or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into
a single post and save on header bandwidth Not meaning to be taken as a
flame its late and we have to work toward a demo little punchy
jftm
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: japanese moon landing/temporary orbit
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 25
rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again)) writes:
>The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'. These
>are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
>three body system. The probe was launched into this region for the
>earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
>allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
>down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
>expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
>originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
>was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
>deceleration.
I should probably re-post this with another title, so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of "temporary orbits..."
Another possible temporary orbit:
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject japanese moon landingtemporary orbit
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 25
rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again writes
The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
three body system The probe was launched into this region for the
earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration
I should probably repost this with another title so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of temporary orbits
Another possible temporary orbit
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: Steve_Mullins@vos.stratus.com
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Organization: Stratus Computer, Marlboro Ma.
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: m72.eng.stratus.com
In article <1993Apr16.130430.1@ccsua.ctstateu.edu> kellyb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu wrote:
>In article <kmr4.1563.734805744@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>> Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible.
>>
> Since when does atheism mean trashing other religions?There must be a God
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> of inbreeding to which you are his only son.
a) I think that he has a rather witty .sig file. It sums up a great
deal of atheistic thought (IMO) in one simple sentence.
b) Atheism isn't an "other religion".
sm
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steve_Mullins@vos.stratus.com () "If a man empties his purse into his
My opinions <> Stratus' opinions () head, no one can take it from him
------------------------------ () ---------------Benjamin Franklin
after prepro From Steve_Mullinsvosstratuscom
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Organization Stratus Computer Marlboro Ma
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost m72engstratuscom
In article 1993Apr161304301ccsuactstateuedu kellybccsuactstateuedu wrote
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible
Since when does atheism mean trashing other religionsThere must be a God
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of inbreeding to which you are his only son
a I think that he has a rather witty sig file It sums up a great
deal of atheistic thought IMO in one simple sentence
b Atheism isnt an other religion
sm
Steve_Mullinsvosstratuscom If a man empties his purse into his
My opinions Stratus opinions head no one can take it from him
Benjamin Franklin
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
From: Robert Coe <bob@1776.COM>
Distribution: world
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA
Lines: 23
jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> >> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
> >>
> >> April 1973 83 jupiter radii
> >> August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
> >
> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. So the
> > 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
> > Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
> > --
> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
Hmmmm.... The prefix "peri-" is Greek, not Latin, so it's usually used
with the Greek form of the name of the body being orbited. (That's why
it's "perihelion" rather than "perisol", "perigee" rather than "periterr",
and "pericynthion" rather than "perilune".) So for Jupiter I'd expect it
to be something like "perizeon".) :^)
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
after prepro Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
From Robert Coe
Distribution world
Organization 1776 Enterprises Sudbury MA
Lines 23
jgarlandkeanucsmunca writes
Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius 71000 km 44000 mi 00005 AU So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language
Hmmmm The prefix peri is Greek not Latin so its usually used
with the Greek form of the name of the body being orbited Thats why
its perihelion rather than perisol perigee rather than periterr
and pericynthion rather than perilune So for Jupiter Id expect it
to be something like perizeon ^
___ _ Bob
__ _ _ _
___ ___ ____________________________________________ bob1776COM
Robert K Coe 14 Churchill St Sudbury Massachusetts 01776 5084433265
preprocess doc From: MAILRP%ESA.BITNET@vm.gmd.de
Subject: message from Space Digest
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 62
Press Release No.19-93
Paris, 22 April 1993
Users of ESA's Olympus satellite report on the outcome of
their experiments
"Today Europe's space telecommunications sector would not
be blossoming as it now does, had OLYMPUS not provided
a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s". This
summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300
participants at the Conference on Olympus Utilisation held in
Seville on 20-22-April 1993. The conference was organised by
the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Spanish Centre for
the Development of Industrial Technology (CDTI).
OLYMPUS has been particularly useful :
- in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of
new users, thanks to satellite terminals with very small
antennas (VSATs). OLYMPUS experiments have tested
data transmission, videoconferencing, business television,
distance teaching and rural telephony, to give but a few
examples.
- in opening the door to new telecommunications services
which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower-
frequency bands; OLYMPUS was the first satellite over
Europe to offer capacity in the 20/30 GHz band.
- in establishing two-way data relay links OLYMPUS
received for the first time in Europe, over several months,
high-volume data from a low-Earth orbiting spacecraft and
then distributed it to various centres in Europe.
When OLYMPUS was launched on 12 July 1989 it was the
world's largest telecommunications satellite; and no other
satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four
different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands.
OLYMPUS users range from individual experimenters to some
of the world's largest businesses. Access to the satellite is
given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or
services; over the past four years some 200 companies and
organisations made use of this opportunity, as well as over
100 members of the EUROSTEP distance-learning
organisation.
As the new technologies and services tested by these
OLYMPUS users enter the commercial market, they then
make use of operational satellites such as those of
EUTELSAT.
OLYMPUS utilisation will continue through 1993 and 1994,
when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the
end of its design life.
after prepro From MAILRPESABITNETvmgmdde
Subject message from Space Digest
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 62
Press Release No1993
Paris 22 April 1993
Users of ESAs Olympus satellite report on the outcome of
their experiments
Today Europes space telecommunications sector would not
be blossoming as it now does had OLYMPUS not provided
a testbed for the technologies and services of the 1990s This
summarises the general conclusions of 135 speakers and 300
participants at the Conference on Olympus Utilisation held in
Seville on 2022April 1993 The conference was organised by
the European Space Agency ESA and the Spanish Centre for
the Development of Industrial Technology CDTI
OLYMPUS has been particularly useful
in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of
new users thanks to satellite terminals with very small
antennas VSATs OLYMPUS experiments have tested
data transmission videoconferencing business television
distance teaching and rural telephony to give but a few
examples
in opening the door to new telecommunications services
which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower
frequency bands OLYMPUS was the first satellite over
Europe to offer capacity in the 2030 GHz band
in establishing twoway data relay links OLYMPUS
received for the first time in Europe over several months
highvolume data from a lowEarth orbiting spacecraft and
then distributed it to various centres in Europe
When OLYMPUS was launched on 12 July 1989 it was the
worlds largest telecommunications satellite and no other
satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four
different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands
OLYMPUS users range from individual experimenters to some
of the worlds largest businesses Access to the satellite is
given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or
services over the past four years some 200 companies and
organisations made use of this opportunity as well as over
100 members of the EUROSTEP distancelearning
organisation
As the new technologies and services tested by these
OLYMPUS users enter the commercial market they then
make use of operational satellites such as those of
EUTELSAT
OLYMPUS utilisation will continue through 1993 and 1994
when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the
end of its design life
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 25
In article <115565@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>>I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>>ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>>community in the Uk and elsewhere.
>
>Grow up, childish propagandist.
>
Gosh, Gregg. I'm pretty good a reading between the lines, but
you've given me precious little to work with in this refutation.
Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit? Or did I miss the full
grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism?
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 25
In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere
Grow up childish propagandist
Gosh Gregg Im pretty good a reading between the lines but
youve given me precious little to work with in this refutation
Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit Or did I miss the full
grandeur of its content by virtue of my blinding atheism
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Request for Support
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 35
I have a request for those who would like to see Charley Wingate
respond to the "Charley Challenges" (and judging from my e-mail, there
appear to be quite a few of you.)
It is clear that Mr. Wingate intends to continue to post tangential or
unrelated articles while ingoring the Challenges themselves. Between
the last two re-postings of the Challenges, I noted perhaps a dozen or
more posts by Mr. Wingate, none of which answered a single Challenge.
It seems unmistakable to me that Mr. Wingate hopes that the questions
will just go away, and he is doing his level best to change the
subject. Given that this seems a rather common net.theist tactic, I
would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers,
in the following manner:
1. Ignore any future articles by Mr. Wingate that do not address the
Challenges, until he answers them or explictly announces that he
refuses to do so.
--or--
2. If you must respond to one of his articles, include within it
something similar to the following:
"Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges."
Really, I'm not looking to humiliate anyone here, I just want some
honest answers. You wouldn't think that honesty would be too much to
ask from a devout Christian, would you?
Nevermind, that was a rhetorical question.
--Dave Wood
after prepro From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Request for Support
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 35
I have a request for those who would like to see Charley Wingate
respond to the Charley Challenges and judging from my email there
appear to be quite a few of you
It is clear that Mr Wingate intends to continue to post tangential or
unrelated articles while ingoring the Challenges themselves Between
the last two repostings of the Challenges I noted perhaps a dozen or
more posts by Mr Wingate none of which answered a single Challenge
It seems unmistakable to me that Mr Wingate hopes that the questions
will just go away and he is doing his level best to change the
subject Given that this seems a rather common nettheist tactic I
would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers
in the following manner
1 Ignore any future articles by Mr Wingate that do not address the
Challenges until he answers them or explictly announces that he
refuses to do so
or
2 If you must respond to one of his articles include within it
something similar to the following
Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges
Really Im not looking to humiliate anyone here I just want some
honest answers You wouldnt think that honesty would be too much to
ask from a devout Christian would you
Nevermind that was a rhetorical question
Dave Wood
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 09/15 - Mission Schedules
Supersedes: <schedule_730956538@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 177
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:59:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/schedule
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:23 $
SPACE SHUTTLE ANSWERS, LAUNCH SCHEDULES, TV COVERAGE
SHUTTLE LAUNCHINGS AND LANDINGS; SCHEDULES AND HOW TO SEE THEM
Shuttle operations are discussed in the Usenet group sci.space.shuttle,
and Ken Hollis (gandalf@pro-electric.cts.com) posts a compressed version
of the shuttle manifest (launch dates and other information)
periodically there. The manifest is also available from the Ames SPACE
archive in SPACE/FAQ/manifest. The portion of his manifest formerly
included in this FAQ has been removed; please refer to his posting or
the archived copy. For the most up to date information on upcoming
missions, call (407) 867-INFO (867-4636) at Kennedy Space Center.
Official NASA shuttle status reports are posted to sci.space.news
frequently.
WHY DOES THE SHUTTLE ROLL JUST AFTER LIFTOFF?
The following answer and translation are provided by Ken Jenks
(kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov).
The "Ascent Guidance and Flight Control Training Manual," ASC G&C 2102,
says:
"During the vertical rise phase, the launch pad attitude is
commanded until an I-loaded V(rel) sufficient to assure launch tower
clearance is achieved. Then, the tilt maneuver (roll program)
orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a
negative q-alpha, which in turn alleviates structural loading. Other
advantages with this attitude are performance gain, decreased abort
maneuver complexity, improved S-band look angles, and crew view of
the horizon. The tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining
downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff (MECO) target
in second stage."
This really is a good answer, but it's couched in NASA jargon. I'll try
to interpret.
1) We wait until the Shuttle clears the tower before rolling.
2) Then, we roll the Shuttle around so that the angle of attack
between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere (the
"relative wind") and the chord of the wings (the imaginary line
between the leading edge and the trailing edge) is a slightly
negative angle ("a negative q-alpha"). This causes a little bit of
"downward" force (toward the belly of the Orbiter, or the +Z
direction) and this force "alleviates structural loading."
We have to be careful about those wings -- they're about the
most "delicate" part of the vehicle.
3) The new attitude (after the roll) also allows us to carry more
mass to orbit, or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass, or
to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be
the case if we didn't roll ("performance gain").
4) The new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated
flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort
maneuvers, the Return To Launch Site ("decreased abort maneuver
complexity").
5) The new attitude improves the ability for ground-based radio
antennae to have a good line-of-sight signal with the S-band radio
antennae on the Orbiter ("improved S-band look angles").
6) The new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon, which is a
helpful (but not mandatory) part of piloting any flying machine.
7) The new attitude orients the Shuttle so that the body is
more nearly parallel with the ground, and the nose to the east
(usually). This allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity
in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit. Remember:
velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction.
The Shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its
velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit.
This all begs the question, "Why isn't the launch pad oriented to give
this nice attitude to begin with? Why does the Shuttle need to roll to
achieve that attitude?" The answer is that the pads were leftovers
from the Apollo days. The Shuttle straddles two flame trenches -- one
for the Solid Rocket Motor exhaust, one for the Space Shuttle Main
Engine exhaust. (You can see the effects of this on any daytime
launch. The SRM exhaust is dirty gray garbage, and the SSME exhaust is
fluffy white steam. Watch for the difference between the "top"
[Orbiter side] and the "bottom" [External Tank side] of the stack.) The
access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented
basically the same way they were for the Saturn V's. (A side note: the
Saturn V's also had a roll program. Don't ask me why -- I'm a Shuttle
guy.)
I checked with a buddy in Ascent Dynamics. He added that the "roll
maneuver" is really a maneuver in all three axes: roll, pitch and yaw.
The roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons
stated. The pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping
the angle of attack (q-alpha) within a tight tolerance. The yaw
component is used to determine the orbital inclination. The total
maneuver is really expressed as a "quaternion," a grad-level-math
concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one four-element
array.
HOW TO RECEIVE THE NASA TV CHANNEL, NASA SELECT
NASA SELECT is broadcast by satellite. If you have access to a satellite
dish, you can find SELECT on Satcom F2R, Transponder 13, C-Band, 72
degrees West Longitude, Audio 6.8, Frequency 3960 MHz. F2R is stationed
over the Atlantic, and is increasingly difficult to receive from
California and points west. During events of special interest (e.g.
shuttle missions), SELECT is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite
for these viewers.
If you can't get a satellite feed, some cable operators carry SELECT.
It's worth asking if yours doesn't.
The SELECT schedule is found in the NASA Headline News which is
frequently posted to sci.space.news. Generally it carries press
conferences, briefings by NASA officials, and live coverage of shuttle
missions and planetary encounters. SELECT has recently begun carrying
much more secondary material (associated with SPACELINK) when missions
are not being covered.
AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES FOR SHUTTLE MISSIONS
The following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio:
W6FXN - Los Angeles
K6MF - Ames Research Center, Mountain View, California
WA3NAN - Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt, Maryland.
W5RRR - Johnson Space Center (JSC), Houston, Texas
W6VIO - Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California.
W1AW Voice Bulletins
Station VHF 10m 15m 20m 40m 80m
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ----- -----
W6FXN 145.46
K6MF 145.585 7.165 3.840
WA3NAN 147.45 28.650 21.395 14.295 7.185 3.860
W5RRR 146.64 28.400 21.350 14.280 7.227 3.850
W6VIO 224.04 21.340 14.270
W6VIO 224.04 21.280 14.282 7.165 3.840
W1AW 28.590 21.390 14.290 7.290 3.990
W5RRR transmits mission audio on 146.64, a special event station on the
other frequencies supplying Keplerian Elements and mission information.
W1AW also transmits on 147.555, 18.160. No mission audio but they
transmit voice bulletins at 0245 and 0545 UTC.
Frequencies in the 10-20m bands require USB and frequencies in the 40
and 80m bands LSB. Use FM for the VHF frequencies.
[This item was most recently updated courtesy of Gary Morris
(g@telesoft.com, KK6YB, N5QWC)]
SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER FUEL COMPOSITION
Reference: "Shuttle Flight Operations Manual" Volume 8B - Solid Rocket
Booster Systems, NASA Document JSC-12770
Propellant Composition (percent)
Ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer) 69.6
Aluminum 16
Iron Oxide (burn rate catalyst) 0.4
Polybutadiene-acrilic acid-acrylonitrile (a rubber) 12.04
Epoxy curing agent 1.96
End reference
Comment: The aluminum, rubber, and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer.
NEXT: FAQ #10/15 - Historical planetary probes
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0915 Mission Schedules
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 177
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195907 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spaceschedule
Lastmodified Date 930401 143923
SPACE SHUTTLE ANSWERS LAUNCH SCHEDULES TV COVERAGE
SHUTTLE LAUNCHINGS AND LANDINGS SCHEDULES AND HOW TO SEE THEM
Shuttle operations are discussed in the Usenet group scispaceshuttle
and Ken Hollis gandalfproelectricctscom posts a compressed version
of the shuttle manifest launch dates and other information
periodically there The manifest is also available from the Ames SPACE
archive in SPACEFAQmanifest The portion of his manifest formerly
included in this FAQ has been removed please refer to his posting or
the archived copy For the most up to date information on upcoming
missions call 407 867INFO 8674636 at Kennedy Space Center
Official NASA shuttle status reports are posted to scispacenews
frequently
WHY DOES THE SHUTTLE ROLL JUST AFTER LIFTOFF
The following answer and translation are provided by Ken Jenks
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
The Ascent Guidance and Flight Control Training Manual ASC GC 2102
says
During the vertical rise phase the launch pad attitude is
commanded until an Iloaded Vrel sufficient to assure launch tower
clearance is achieved Then the tilt maneuver roll program
orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a
negative qalpha which in turn alleviates structural loading Other
advantages with this attitude are performance gain decreased abort
maneuver complexity improved Sband look angles and crew view of
the horizon The tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining
downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff MECO target
in second stage
This really is a good answer but its couched in NASA jargon Ill try
to interpret
1 We wait until the Shuttle clears the tower before rolling
2 Then we roll the Shuttle around so that the angle of attack
between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere the
relative wind and the chord of the wings the imaginary line
between the leading edge and the trailing edge is a slightly
negative angle a negative qalpha This causes a little bit of
downward force toward the belly of the Orbiter or the Z
direction and this force alleviates structural loading
We have to be careful about those wings theyre about the
most delicate part of the vehicle
3 The new attitude after the roll also allows us to carry more
mass to orbit or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass or
to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be
the case if we didnt roll performance gain
4 The new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated
flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort
maneuvers the Return To Launch Site decreased abort maneuver
complexity
5 The new attitude improves the ability for groundbased radio
antennae to have a good lineofsight signal with the Sband radio
antennae on the Orbiter improved Sband look angles
6 The new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon which is a
helpful but not mandatory part of piloting any flying machine
7 The new attitude orients the Shuttle so that the body is
more nearly parallel with the ground and the nose to the east
usually This allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity
in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit Remember
velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction
The Shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its
velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit
This all begs the question Why isnt the launch pad oriented to give
this nice attitude to begin with Why does the Shuttle need to roll to
achieve that attitude The answer is that the pads were leftovers
from the Apollo days The Shuttle straddles two flame trenches one
for the Solid Rocket Motor exhaust one for the Space Shuttle Main
Engine exhaust You can see the effects of this on any daytime
launch The SRM exhaust is dirty gray garbage and the SSME exhaust is
fluffy white steam Watch for the difference between the top
[Orbiter side] and the bottom [External Tank side] of the stack The
access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented
basically the same way they were for the Saturn Vs A side note the
Saturn Vs also had a roll program Dont ask me why Im a Shuttle
guy
I checked with a buddy in Ascent Dynamics He added that the roll
maneuver is really a maneuver in all three axes roll pitch and yaw
The roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons
stated The pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping
the angle of attack qalpha within a tight tolerance The yaw
component is used to determine the orbital inclination The total
maneuver is really expressed as a quaternion a gradlevelmath
concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one fourelement
array
HOW TO RECEIVE THE NASA TV CHANNEL NASA SELECT
NASA SELECT is broadcast by satellite If you have access to a satellite
dish you can find SELECT on Satcom F2R Transponder 13 CBand 72
degrees West Longitude Audio 68 Frequency 3960 MHz F2R is stationed
over the Atlantic and is increasingly difficult to receive from
California and points west During events of special interest eg
shuttle missions SELECT is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite
for these viewers
If you cant get a satellite feed some cable operators carry SELECT
Its worth asking if yours doesnt
The SELECT schedule is found in the NASA Headline News which is
frequently posted to scispacenews Generally it carries press
conferences briefings by NASA officials and live coverage of shuttle
missions and planetary encounters SELECT has recently begun carrying
much more secondary material associated with SPACELINK when missions
are not being covered
AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES FOR SHUTTLE MISSIONS
The following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio
W6FXN Los Angeles
K6MF Ames Research Center Mountain View California
WA3NAN Goddard Space Flight Center GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
W5RRR Johnson Space Center JSC Houston Texas
W6VIO Jet Propulsion Laboratory JPL Pasadena California
W1AW Voice Bulletins
Station VHF 10m 15m 20m 40m 80m
W6FXN 14546
K6MF 145585 7165 3840
WA3NAN 14745 28650 21395 14295 7185 3860
W5RRR 14664 28400 21350 14280 7227 3850
W6VIO 22404 21340 14270
W6VIO 22404 21280 14282 7165 3840
W1AW 28590 21390 14290 7290 3990
W5RRR transmits mission audio on 14664 a special event station on the
other frequencies supplying Keplerian Elements and mission information
W1AW also transmits on 147555 18160 No mission audio but they
transmit voice bulletins at 0245 and 0545 UTC
Frequencies in the 1020m bands require USB and frequencies in the 40
and 80m bands LSB Use FM for the VHF frequencies
[This item was most recently updated courtesy of Gary Morris
gtelesoftcom KK6YB N5QWC]
SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER FUEL COMPOSITION
Reference Shuttle Flight Operations Manual Volume 8B Solid Rocket
Booster Systems NASA Document JSC12770
Propellant Composition percent
Ammonium perchlorate oxidizer 696
Aluminum 16
Iron Oxide burn rate catalyst 04
Polybutadieneacrilic acidacrylonitrile a rubber 1204
Epoxy curing agent 196
End reference
Comment The aluminum rubber and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer
NEXT FAQ 1015 Historical planetary probes
preprocess doc From: suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
In-Reply-To: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com's message of 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST
Lines: 17
Reply-To: suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
<1993Apr3.183519.14721@proxima.alt.za>
<1993Apr5.112430.825@batman.bmd.trw.com>
>>>>> On 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com said:
:> God is eternal. [A = B]
:> Jesus is God. [C = A]
:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal. [C = B]
:> This works both logically and mathematically. God is of the set of
:> things which are eternal. Jesus is a subset of God. Therefore
:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
Everything isn't always so logical....
Mercedes is a car.
That girl is Mercedes.
Therefore, that girl is a car?
-Heikki
after prepro From suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
InReplyTo jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcoms message of 5 Apr 93 112430 MST
Lines 17
ReplyTo suopankistektoulufi
Organization Unixverstas Olutensin Finlandia
1993Apr318351914721proximaaltza
1993Apr5112430825batmanbmdtrwcom
On 5 Apr 93 112430 MST jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom said
God is eternal [A B]
Jesus is God [C A]
Therefore Jesus is eternal [C B]
This works both logically and mathematically God is of the set of
things which are eternal Jesus is a subset of God Therefore
Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal
Everything isnt always so logical
Mercedes is a car
That girl is Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car
Heikki
preprocess doc Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses (good grief!)
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 14
In article <66018@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
>true position of reason in this group.
I agree, we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of God.
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses good grief
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 14
In article 66018mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group
I agree we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of God
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 9
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you |
| think I said. But I am not sure that you realize that |
| what I said is not what I meant." |
after prepro From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject ProtonCentaur
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 9
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I know you believe you understand what it is that you
think I said But I am not sure that you realize that
what I said is not what I meant
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr22.204742.10671
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 62
In <C5tvL2.1In@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:
>> hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.
>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
>If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
>terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
>selling every bit that promises to make money?
Well, I guess I'm left wondering just who all the 'light fascists'
think *they* are. Yes, I understand the issues. I don't even
particularly care for the idea. But am I the only one that finds the
sort of overreaction above just a *little* questionable? You must
find things like the Moon *really* obnoxious in their pollution.
A few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves:
1) How long is this thing supposed to stay up? Sounds like it
would have a *huge* drag area, not a lot of mass, and be in a fairly
low orbit.
2) Just what orbital parameters are we talking about here?
What real impact are we talking about, really? How many optical
astronomers are *really* going to be impacted?
3) Which is more important; adding a few extra days of
'seeing' for (very few) optical astronomers or getting the data the
sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large
inflatables (and the potential there for an inflatable space station)?
The choice would seem to be one or the other, since the advertising is
being used to help fund this thing.
4) If your answer to 3) above was "the astronomers", then feel
free to come up with some other way to fund the (to my mind) more
important research data that would be gained by this WITHOUT SPENDING
ANY MORE OF MY MONEY TO DO IT. In other words, put up or shut up.
>I guess we really
>deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
>guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.
Probably so. I'm just not sure we agree about who the 'stupid' are.
> Another depressed planetary citizen,
> hoover
Yeah, me too.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
ArticleID mksol1993Apr2220474210671
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 62
In hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp writes
In article enzoresearchcanonozau
Enzo Liguori writes
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money
Well I guess Im left wondering just who all the light fascists
think they are Yes I understand the issues I dont even
particularly care for the idea But am I the only one that finds the
sort of overreaction above just a little questionable You must
find things like the Moon really obnoxious in their pollution
A few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves
1 How long is this thing supposed to stay up Sounds like it
would have a huge drag area not a lot of mass and be in a fairly
low orbit
2 Just what orbital parameters are we talking about here
What real impact are we talking about really How many optical
astronomers are really going to be impacted
3 Which is more important adding a few extra days of
seeing for very few optical astronomers or getting the data the
sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large
inflatables and the potential there for an inflatable space station
The choice would seem to be one or the other since the advertising is
being used to help fund this thing
4 If your answer to 3 above was the astronomers then feel
free to come up with some other way to fund the to my mind more
important research data that would be gained by this WITHOUT SPENDING
ANY MORE OF MY MONEY TO DO IT In other words put up or shut up
I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers
Probably so Im just not sure we agree about who the stupid are
Another depressed planetary citizen
hoover
Yeah me too
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, California
Lines: 19
In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Joe Wetstein
There is a wonderful book by Jean Meeus called
"Astronomical Algorithms," (1991) which I am fairly sure
contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times.
Dan Asimov
Mail Stop T045-1
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
asimov@nas.nasa.gov
(415) 604-4799
after prepro From asimovwk223nasnasagov Daniel A Asimov
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization NAS NASA Ames Research Center Moffett Field California
Lines 19
In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
Joe Wetstein
There is a wonderful book by Jean Meeus called
Astronomical Algorithms 1991 which I am fairly sure
contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times
Dan Asimov
Mail Stop T0451
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field CA 940351000
asimovnasnasagov
415 6044799
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 93
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qlettINN8oi@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >>>Explain to me
|> >>>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
|> >>For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
|> >
|> >Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
|> >would be nothing voluntary about it.
|>
|> See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
|> if it is "voluntary." Why do you think this?
If you force me to do something, am I morally responsible for it?
|>
|> And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.
Well, make up your mind. Is it to be "instinctive not to murder"
or not?
|>
|> >>So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
|> >>beings mimics theirs?
|> >
|> >You are starting to get the point. Mimicry is not necessarily the
|> >same as the action being imitated. A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly"
|> >isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.
|>
|> You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
|> Let's try this: is it "good" that animals of the same species
|> don't kill each other. Or, do you think this is right?
It's not even correct. Animals of the same species do kill
one another.
|>
|> Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
|> is either right nor wrong?
Sigh. I wonder how many times we have been round this loop.
I think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance.
I am quite prepared to believe that higher animals, such as
primates, have the beginnings of a moral sense, since they seem
to exhibit self-awareness.
|>
|>
|> >>Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but
|> >>they don't.
|> >
|> >They do. I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
|> >this, but you seem to have a very short memory.
|>
|> Those weren't arbitrary killings. They were slayings related to some
|> sort of mating ritual or whatnot.
So what? Are you trying to say that some killing in animals
has a moral significance and some does not? Is this your
natural morality>
|>
|> >>Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
|> >>most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
|> >
|> >I'm saying:
|> > "There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not
|> > just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
|> >
|> >It's right there in the posting you are replying to.
|>
|> Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions. What
|> do you mean by "consider?" Can a small child be moral? How about
|> a gorilla? A dolphin? A platypus? Where is the line drawn? Does
|> the being need to be self aware?
Are you blind? What do you think that this sentence means?
"There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not
just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
What would that imply?
|>
|> What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
|> the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other? Don't
|> you find the fact that they don't at all significant?
I find the fact that they do to be significant.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
For example if it were instinctive not to murder
Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
would be nothing voluntary about it
See there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is voluntary Why do you think this
If you force me to do something am I morally responsible for it
And anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts
Well make up your mind Is it to be instinctive not to murder
or not
So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs
You are starting to get the point Mimicry is not necessarily the
same as the action being imitated A Parrot saying Pretty Polly
isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly
You are attaching too many things to the term moral I think
Lets try this is it good that animals of the same species
dont kill each other Or do you think this is right
Its not even correct Animals of the same species do kill
one another
Or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong
Sigh I wonder how many times we have been round this loop
I think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance
I am quite prepared to believe that higher animals such as
primates have the beginnings of a moral sense since they seem
to exhibit selfawareness
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but
they dont
They do I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this but you seem to have a very short memory
Those werent arbitrary killings They were slayings related to some
sort of mating ritual or whatnot
So what Are you trying to say that some killing in animals
has a moral significance and some does not Is this your
natural morality
Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
Im saying
There must be the possibility that the organism its not
just people we are talking about can consider alternatives
Its right there in the posting you are replying to
Yes it was but I still dont understand your distinctions What
do you mean by consider Can a small child be moral How about
a gorilla A dolphin A platypus Where is the line drawn Does
the being need to be self aware
Are you blind What do you think that this sentence means
There must be the possibility that the organism its not
just people we are talking about can consider alternatives
What would that imply
What do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from arbitrarily killing each other Dont
you find the fact that they dont at all significant
I find the fact that they do to be significant
jon
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>Look, I'm not the one that made those Nazi comparisons. Other people
>>compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany. They
>>have said that it started out with little things (but no one really knew
>>about any of these "little" things, strangely enough) and grew to bigger
>>things. They said that the motto is but one of the little things
>You just contradicted yourself. The motto is one of those little things that
>nobody has bothered mentiopning to you, huh?
The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly. People
said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
weren't going to waste their time repeating them. Sounds to me like no one
knew, either. I looked in some books, but to no avail.
>>that is
>>going to pave the way for other "intrusions." Of course, if the motto
>>hasn't caused problems in its 40 year history, then I doubt it is going to...
>It *has* caused problems. You just ignore every instance when someone
>describes one to you.
It has *caused* problems? Again, no one has shown that things were better
before the motto, or that they'd likely be better after. I don't think
the motto initiates any sort of harassment. Harassment will occur whether
or not the motto is present.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Look Im not the one that made those Nazi comparisons Other people
compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany They
have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew
about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger
things They said that the motto is but one of the little things
You just contradicted yourself The motto is one of those little things that
nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh
The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
werent going to waste their time repeating them Sounds to me like no one
knew either I looked in some books but to no avail
that is
going to pave the way for other intrusions Of course if the motto
hasnt caused problems in its 40 year history then I doubt it is going to
It has caused problems You just ignore every instance when someone
describes one to you
It has caused problems Again no one has shown that things were better
before the motto or that theyd likely be better after I dont think
the motto initiates any sort of harassment Harassment will occur whether
or not the motto is present
keith
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1993Apr17.225127.25062@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>You exagerate to the point of libel. I gave only unpopular reasons
>deliberately. Or do you think that we should have let Iraq absorb Kuwait?
>I could make the tired old 1939 Poland comparison, but I think you've
>heard it. But the principle aplies, never play a Chamberlain and
>roll over to another country being invaded. That only invites further
>invasions.
Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist?
Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology,
etc.
We made Suddam Hussein.
What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind.
---
" I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling "Traditional Family Values."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1993Apr1722512725062daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
You exagerate to the point of libel I gave only unpopular reasons
deliberately Or do you think that we should have let Iraq absorb Kuwait
I could make the tired old 1939 Poland comparison but I think youve
heard it But the principle aplies never play a Chamberlain and
roll over to another country being invaded That only invites further
invasions
Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist
Provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology
etc
We made Suddam Hussein
What did Bush call him Oh yes an ally and a freind
Id Cheat on Hillary Too
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling Traditional Family Values
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: po.kmr4.1447.734101641
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1993Apr6.041343.24997@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>The point has been raised and has been answered. Roger and I have
>clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
>specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
>the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").
Please define "morally straight".
And, don't even try saying that "straight", as it is used here,
implies only hetersexual behavior. [ eg: "straight" as in the slang word
opposite to "gay" ]
This is alot like "family values". Everyone is talking about them,
but misteriously, no one knows what they are.
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID pokmr41447734101641
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1993Apr604134324997cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes
The point has been raised and has been answered Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight
Please define morally straight
And dont even try saying that straight as it is used here
implies only hetersexual behavior [ eg straight as in the slang word
opposite to gay ]
This is alot like family values Everyone is talking about them
but misteriously no one knows what they are
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say Mom because of the love of their mom It makes for more
virile men
Bobby Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
April 4 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang) writes:
>I was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be
>spending the rest of our lives arguing what a "Christian" really
>believes.
I don't think we need to argue about this.
>KS>Do you think that the motto points out that this country is proud
>KS>of its freedom of religion, and that this is something that
>KS>distinguishes us from many other countries?
>MW>No.
>KS>Well, your opinion is not shared by most people, I gather.
>Perhaps not, but that is because those seeking to make government
>recognize Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not
>think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share
>their beliefs.
Yes, but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize
Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think
the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their
beliefs.
And actually, I think that the government already does recognize that
Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. I mean, it is.
Don't you realize/recognize this?
This isn't to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of
Christianity, just that most people do.
>Like I've said before I personally don't think the motto is a major
>concern.
If you agree with me, then what are we discussing?
>KS>Since most people don't seem to associate Christmas with Jesus much
>KS>anymore, I don't see what the problem is.
>Can you prove your assertion that most people in the U.S. don't
>associate Christmas with Jesus anymore?
No, but I hear quite a bit about Christmas, and little if anything about
Jesus. Wouldn't this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really
associated to a high degree with him? Or are you saying that the
association with Jesus is on a personal level, and that everyone thinks
about it but just never talks about it?
That is, can *you* prove that most people *do* associate Christmas
most importantly with Jesus?
>Anyways, the point again is that there are people who do associate
>Christmas with Jesus. It doesn't matter if these people are a majority
>or not.
I think the numbers *do* matter. It takes a majority, or at least a
majority of those in power, to discriminate. Doesn't it?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 57
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
mmwangadobecom Michael Wang writes
I was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be
spending the rest of our lives arguing what a Christian really
believes
I dont think we need to argue about this
KSDo you think that the motto points out that this country is proud
KSof its freedom of religion and that this is something that
KSdistinguishes us from many other countries
MWNo
KSWell your opinion is not shared by most people I gather
Perhaps not but that is because those seeking to make government
recognize Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not
think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share
their beliefs
Yes but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize
Christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think
the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their
beliefs
And actually I think that the government already does recognize that
Christianity is the dominant religion in this country I mean it is
Dont you realizerecognize this
This isnt to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of
Christianity just that most people do
Like Ive said before I personally dont think the motto is a major
concern
If you agree with me then what are we discussing
KSSince most people dont seem to associate Christmas with Jesus much
KSanymore I dont see what the problem is
Can you prove your assertion that most people in the US dont
associate Christmas with Jesus anymore
No but I hear quite a bit about Christmas and little if anything about
Jesus Wouldnt this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really
associated to a high degree with him Or are you saying that the
association with Jesus is on a personal level and that everyone thinks
about it but just never talks about it
That is can you prove that most people do associate Christmas
most importantly with Jesus
Anyways the point again is that there are people who do associate
Christmas with Jesus It doesnt matter if these people are a majority
or not
I think the numbers do matter It takes a majority or at least a
majority of those in power to discriminate Doesnt it
keith
preprocess doc From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 94
In article <1993Apr15.050750.3893@nuscc.nus.sg>, cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> : In article <1q338l$cva@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, gsu0033@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Eric
> : Molas) wrote:
> : > Christianity is an infectious cult. The reasons it flourishes are
> : > because 1) it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life
> : > a safety blanked to hide behind. "Oh wow..all i have to do is
> : > follow this christian moral standard and I get eternal happiness."
> :
> : I agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on
> : 'haha, you won't laugh in hell' mentalities makes certain religions
> : very attractive for certain personalities.
>
> I agree with both of u, but I would like to make a small point. Xtianity, &
> other dogmatic religions, not only attract people without hope etc but
> also attract "average" people as well. I believe that Xtainity, thru
> its escapist doctrines & absolutist attitudes, provides great psychological
> shelter from day-to-day frustrations, unhappiness & fear of uncertainty
> & unknown etc.
>
This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
immigrants for example. Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary. Seems a little weak, but as long as it
doesn't hurt anybody...
> The Buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions:
>
> "When driven by fear, man worships sacred mountains, sacred stones,
> and sacred trees."
>
> However, the Buddha also said,
>
> "If somebody finds peace in any religion, let him be".
>
>
These are good quotes, and I agree with both of them, but let's make sure to
alter the scond one so that includes something like "...let him be, as long as
he is not preventing others from finding their peace." or something like that.
(Of course, I suppose, if someone were REALLY "at peace", there would be no
need for inflicting evangelism)
> Personally, I feel that since religion have such a poweful
> psychological effect, we should let theists be. But the problem is that
> religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole
> (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science
> & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc. Need I say more?).
> I really don't know what we can do about them. Any comments?
>
Well, it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives. Their
popularity seems to come and go. I remember when I first entered High School,
I was an atheist (always had been) and so were about 7 of my friends. At this
time, 5 of those 7 have converted, always to Christianity (they were all also
immigrants from Taiwan, or sons of immigrants, hence my earlier gross
generalization). Christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it
ever has before (since I've been noticing). Maybe it is just my perceptions
that are chagning. Who knows?
I for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them, so long as we
have some set of abstract rights/agreements on how we should treat each other:
I have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions. For all the well-put
arguments on this usenet, it never does any good. Argumentation does not
really seem to apply to Christians (or even some atheists)- it must simply be a
step the person takes naturally, almost, "instinctively"...
best regards,
********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper "Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
* who thought themselves good simply because *
* acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." *
********************************************************************************
>
--
>
> The UnEnlightened One
> ------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
> | "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be
> Tan Chade Meng | expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it
> Singapore | transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology;
> cmtan@iss.nus.sg | it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is
> | based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience
> | of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful
> | unity" -- Einstein
> ------------------+--------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
after prepro From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Macalester College
Lines 94
In article 1993Apr150507503893nusccnussg cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng dan writes
sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
In article 1q338lcvauxaecnbguedu gsu0033uxaecnbguedu Eric
Molas wrote
Christianity is an infectious cult The reasons it flourishes are
because 1 it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life
a safety blanked to hide behind Oh wowall i have to do is
follow this christian moral standard and I get eternal happiness
I agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on
haha you wont laugh in hell mentalities makes certain religions
very attractive for certain personalities
I agree with both of u but I would like to make a small point Xtianity
other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but
also attract average people as well I believe that Xtainity thru
its escapist doctrines absolutist attitudes provides great psychological
shelter from daytoday frustrations unhappiness fear of uncertainty
unknown etc
This is a good point but I think average people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their
social life or to get more involved with American culture if they are kids of
immigrants for example Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong
TOO new or TOO out of the ordinary Seems a little weak but as long as it
doesnt hurt anybody
The Buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions
When driven by fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones
and sacred trees
However the Buddha also said
If somebody finds peace in any religion let him be
These are good quotes and I agree with both of them but lets make sure to
alter the scond one so that includes something like let him be as long as
he is not preventing others from finding their peace or something like that
Of course I suppose if someone were REALLY at peace there would be no
need for inflicting evangelism
Personally I feel that since religion have such a poweful
psychological effect we should let theists be But the problem is that
religions cause enormous harm to nonbelievers and to humanity as a whole
holy wars inquisitions interreligious hatred impedence of science
intellectual progress usthem attitudes etc etc Need I say more
I really dont know what we can do about them Any comments
Well it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives Their
popularity seems to come and go I remember when I first entered High School
I was an atheist always had been and so were about 7 of my friends At this
time 5 of those 7 have converted always to Christianity they were all also
immigrants from Taiwan or sons of immigrants hence my earlier gross
generalization Christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it
ever has before since Ive been noticing Maybe it is just my perceptions
that are chagning Who knows
I for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them so long as we
have some set of abstract rightsagreements on how we should treat each other
I have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions For all the wellput
arguments on this usenet it never does any good Argumentation does not
really seem to apply to Christians or even some atheists it must simply be a
step the person takes naturally almost instinctively
best regards
Adam John Cooper Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings
who thought themselves good simply because
acoopermacalstredu they had no claws
The UnEnlightened One
Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be
Tan Chade Meng expected in a cosmic religion for the future it
Singapore transcends a personal God avoids dogmas and theology
cmtanissnussg it covers both the natural spiritual and it is
based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience
of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful
unity Einstein
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 57
In article <1993Apr15.215833.15970@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>> What about the Twelve Imams, who he considered incapable of error
>> or sin? Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans. This is
>> heresy for the very reasons I gave above.
>I would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 Imams with you, although
>my preference would be to move the discussion to another
>newsgroup. I feel a philosophy or religion group would be more
>appropriate.
I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as I've articulated it above_ (which may not be
the true view of Khomeini) is from the basic principles of Islam.
So that the non-muslim readers of this group will see how far from
the simple basics of Islam such views are on the face of them. And
if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of Islam, how
subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in Islam while
they are explicitly proscribed by the Qur'an.
>The topic is deeply embedded in the world view of Islam and the
>esoteric teachings of the Prophet (S.A.). Heresy does not enter
>into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
>religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical
>substance of man's being and nature.
In my opinion considering any human being as having a substance
or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human
being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by Islam.
>From your posts, you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought. You
>should seek to know Shi'ite thought through knowledgeable
>Shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the
>charge of heresy is levelled.
Absolutely! I would be interested in discussing this privately and
I am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of
error-free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with
the teachings of the Qur'an. However, _prima facie_ such attemptsa
are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery, explicitly
proscribed by the Qur'an.
>As salaam a-laikum
Alaikum Wassalam
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 57
In article 1993Apr1521583315970bnrca Rashid writes
What about the Twelve Imams who he considered incapable of error
or sin Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans This is
heresy for the very reasons I gave above
I would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 Imams with you although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup I feel a philosophy or religion group would be more
appropriate
I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as Ive articulated it above_ which may not be
the true view of Khomeini is from the basic principles of Islam
So that the nonmuslim readers of this group will see how far from
the simple basics of Islam such views are on the face of them And
if they are _not_ in contradiction with the basics of Islam how
subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in Islam while
they are explicitly proscribed by the Quran
The topic is deeply embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet SA Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical
substance of mans being and nature
In my opinion considering any human being as having a substance
or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human
being _is_ a heretical notion and one proscribed by Islam
From your posts you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought You
should seek to know Shiite thought through knowledgeable
Shiite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled
Absolutely I would be interested in discussing this privately and
I am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of
errorfree and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with
the teachings of the Quran However _prima facie_ such attemptsa
are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery explicitly
proscribed by the Quran
As salaam alaikum
Alaikum Wassalam
Gregg
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Bill Conner:
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 6
Could you explain what any of this pertains to? Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice? And why are you using my
name, do you think this relates to anything I've said and if so, what.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Bill Conner
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 6
Could you explain what any of this pertains to Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice And why are you using my
name do you think this relates to anything Ive said and if so what
Bill
preprocess doc cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!bdunn
Subject: Re: The wrong and the right.
From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Lines: 25
In article <93090.141001E62763@TRMETU.BITNET> <E62763@TRMETU.BITNET> writes:
>Hi.I'm a Turkish guy who had tried atheism,satenism and buddism at some instant
>s of hislife.Finally I decided on Islambecause of many facts which I intend to
> write here.From my point of view,you atheists are people who has dropped to a
>deep,dark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the well.But
> if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skies.You'dsee t
>he truth but you close your eyes.Allah is the only GOD and Mohammed is his mess
> ager.now,let's generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamics.W
>hat's your point of view to the problem of the ''FIRST KISS''?That is,the first
> spark which was generated for the formation of the universe.Has it formed by i
>tself?You are bothering yourselves with the Big Bang but where is the first spa
>rk?Please think a bit.Think and return to the only reality of the universe:ISLA
>M|
Uh oh. This looks a bit too much like Bobby's "Atheism Is False" stuff. Are
we really going to have to go through this again? Maybe the universe is
cyclical! :) :(
--Brendan Dunn
after prepro csutexaseduuunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedubdunn
Subject Re The wrong and the right
From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Lines 25
In article 93090141001E62763TRMETUBITNET writes
HiIm a Turkish guy who had tried atheismsatenism and buddism at some instant
s of hislifeFinally I decided on Islambecause of many facts which I intend to
write hereFrom my point of viewyou atheists are people who has dropped to a
deepdark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the wellBut
if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skiesYoudsee t
he truth but you close your eyesAllah is the only GOD and Mohammed is his mess
agernowlets generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamicsW
hats your point of view to the problem of the FIRST KISSThat isthe first
spark which was generated for the formation of the universeHas it formed by i
tselfYou are bothering yourselves with the Big Bang but where is the first spa
rkPlease think a bitThink and return to the only reality of the universeISLA
M
Uh oh This looks a bit too much like Bobbys Atheism Is False stuff Are
we really going to have to go through this again Maybe the universe is
cyclical
Brendan Dunn
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Distribution: na
Lines: 19
In article <C5rHoC.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in
>connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. Sorry I don't
>rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable.
>Anyone else know anything on this angle?
If by that you mean anything on the GD approach, there was an article on
it in a recent Avation Week. I don't remember the exact date but it was
recent.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Distribution na
Lines 19
In article jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing Sorry I dont
rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable
Anyone else know anything on this angle
If by that you mean anything on the GD approach there was an article on
it in a recent Avation Week I dont remember the exact date but it was
recent
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 75
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell
In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu> bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
It appears that Walla Walla College will fill the same role in alt.atheist
that Allegheny College fills in alt.fan.dan-quayle.
> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
>makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
>lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
>writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
>in the process he became a Christian himself.
Converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their
pre-xtian past, frequently falsely. Anyone who embarks on an
effort to "destroy" xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania, a
defect which is not cured by religious conversion.
> The arguements he uses I am summing up. The book is about whether
>Jesus was God or not. I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
>others have to say.
Different perspective? DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE?? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
(sigh!) Perhaps Big J was just mistaken about some of his claims.
Perhaps he was normally insightful, but had a few off days. Perhaps
many (most?) of the statements attributed to Jesus were not made by
him, but were put into his mouth by later authors. Other possibilities
abound. Surely, someone seriously examining this question could
come up with a decent list of possible alternatives, unless the task
is not serious examination of the question (much less "destroying"
xtianity) but rather religious salesmanship.
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
>die for a lie?
How many Germans died for Nazism? How many Russians died in the name
of the proletarian dictatorship? How many Americans died to make the
world safe for "democracy". What a silly question!
>Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
>someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
>heal people.
Is everyone who performs a healing = God?
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy.
It's probably hard to "draw" an entire nation to you unless you
are crazy.
>Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
>this right away.
> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
>real thing.
Anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves
to be a xtian.
> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
>and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
>write I will use it.
Don't bother. Many of the "prophecies" were "fulfilled" only in the
eyes of xtian apologists, who distort the meaning of Isaiah and
other OT books.
after prepro From siefermesteinuwashingtonedu Eric Sieferman
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 75
NNTPPostingHost steinuwashingtonedu
Keywords Dan Bissell
In article bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
It appears that Walla Walla College will fill the same role in altatheist
that Allegheny College fills in altfandanquayle
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
Converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their
prextian past frequently falsely Anyone who embarks on an
effort to destroy xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania a
defect which is not cured by religious conversion
The arguements he uses I am summing up The book is about whether
Jesus was God or not I know many of you dont believe but listen to a
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
others have to say
Different perspective DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
sigh Perhaps Big J was just mistaken about some of his claims
Perhaps he was normally insightful but had a few off days Perhaps
many most of the statements attributed to Jesus were not made by
him but were put into his mouth by later authors Other possibilities
abound Surely someone seriously examining this question could
come up with a decent list of possible alternatives unless the task
is not serious examination of the question much less destroying
xtianity but rather religious salesmanship
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie
How many Germans died for Nazism How many Russians died in the name
of the proletarian dictatorship How many Americans died to make the
world safe for democracy What a silly question
Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
Is everyone who performs a healing God
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy
Its probably hard to draw an entire nation to you unless you
are crazy
Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves
to be a xtian
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
Dont bother Many of the prophecies were fulfilled only in the
eyes of xtian apologists who distort the meaning of Isaiah and
other OT books
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 28
In article <114127@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>When they are victimized they are Muslims. When they victimize others
>>they are not True Muslims (tm) or no Muslims at all.
>
>>Quite annoying.
>
>I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic
>principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
>that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
>so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
>be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
>to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
>Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
>than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
>
It was no criticism of Islam for a change, it was a criticism of the
arguments used. Namely, whenever people you identify as Muslims are
the victims of the attacks of others, they are used an argument for
the bad situation of Muslims. But whenever deeds by Muslim that victimize
others are named, they do not count as an argument because what these
people did was not done as a true Muslims. No mention is made how Muslims
are the cause of a bad situation of another party.
Double standards.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 28
In article 114127buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
When they are victimized they are Muslims When they victimize others
they are not True Muslims tm or no Muslims at all
Quite annoying
I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic
principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts
It was no criticism of Islam for a change it was a criticism of the
arguments used Namely whenever people you identify as Muslims are
the victims of the attacks of others they are used an argument for
the bad situation of Muslims But whenever deeds by Muslim that victimize
others are named they do not count as an argument because what these
people did was not done as a true Muslims No mention is made how Muslims
are the cause of a bad situation of another party
Double standards
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 14
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi
In <1993Apr10.191100.16094@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>Insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional. Under
>atheism, anything can happen, good or bad, including genocide.
And you know why this is? Because you've conveniently _defined_ a theist as
someone who can do no wrong, and you've _defined_ people who do wrong as
atheists. The above statement is circular (not to mention bigoting), and,
as such, has no value.
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
after prepro From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 14
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi
In 1993Apr1019110016094ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
Insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional Under
atheism anything can happen good or bad including genocide
And you know why this is Because youve conveniently _defined_ a theist as
someone who can do no wrong and youve _defined_ people who do wrong as
atheists The above statement is circular not to mention bigoting and
as such has no value
Sami Aario Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 66
James Hogan writes:
timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:
>>Jim Hogan quips:
>>... (summary of Jim's stuff)
>>Jim, I'm afraid _you've_ missed the point.
>>>Thus, I think you'll have to admit that atheists have a lot
>>more up their sleeve than you might have suspected.
>>Nah. I will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists
>>have up their sleeves. Whatever I might have suspected is actually quite
>>meager. If you want I'll send them your address to learn less about your
>>faith.
>Faith?
Yeah, do you expect people to read the FAQ, etc. and actually accept hard
atheism? No, you need a little leap of faith, Jimmy. Your logic runs out
of steam!
>>>Fine, but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock
>>>the idea of a God? ....
>>>I hope you understand now.
>>Yes, Jim. I do understand now. Thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm
>>that would have dispelled any sympathies I would have had for your faith.
>Bake,
>Real glad you detected the sarcasm angle, but am really bummin' that
>I won't be getting any of your sympathy. Still, if your inclined
>to have sympathy for somebody's *faith*, you might try one of the
>religion newsgroups.
>Just be careful over there, though. (make believe I'm
>whispering in your ear here) They're all delusional!
Jim,
Sorry I can't pity you, Jim. And I'm sorry that you have these feelings of
denial about the faith you need to get by. Oh well, just pretend that it will
all end happily ever after anyway. Maybe if you start a new newsgroup,
alt.atheist.hard, you won't be bummin' so much?
>Good job, Jim.
>.
>Bye, Bake.
>>[more slim-Jim (tm) deleted]
>Bye, Bake!
>Bye, Bye!
Bye-Bye, Big Jim. Don't forget your Flintstone's Chewables! :)
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 66
James Hogan writes
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
Jim Hogan quips
summary of Jims stuff
Jim Im afraid _youve_ missed the point
Thus I think youll have to admit that atheists have a lot
more up their sleeve than you might have suspected
Nah I will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists
have up their sleeves Whatever I might have suspected is actually quite
meager If you want Ill send them your address to learn less about your
faith
Faith
Yeah do you expect people to read the FAQ etc and actually accept hard
atheism No you need a little leap of faith Jimmy Your logic runs out
of steam
Fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock
the idea of a God
I hope you understand now
Yes Jim I do understand now Thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm
that would have dispelled any sympathies I would have had for your faith
Bake
Real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but am really bummin that
I wont be getting any of your sympathy Still if your inclined
to have sympathy for somebodys faith you might try one of the
religion newsgroups
Just be careful over there though make believe Im
whispering in your ear here Theyre all delusional
Jim
Sorry I cant pity you Jim And Im sorry that you have these feelings of
denial about the faith you need to get by Oh well just pretend that it will
all end happily ever after anyway Maybe if you start a new newsgroup
altatheisthard you wont be bummin so much
Good job Jim
Bye Bake
[more slimJim tm deleted]
Bye Bake
Bye Bye
ByeBye Big Jim Dont forget your Flintstones Chewables
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Lines: 30
Benedikt Rosenau writes:
>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?
If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
it's obviously a risk one takes.
>Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
>is contradictive.
I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization. The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience. One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).
An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
that the "better" descriptive language is not available.
>And in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish
>that?
This word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you
can show how reliability can be determined.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Yeah Right
Lines 30
Benedikt Rosenau writes
And what about that revelation thing Charley
If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes
Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
is contradictive
Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable
An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available
And in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish
that
This word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you
can show how reliability can be determined
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: looper@cco.caltech.edu (Mark D. Looper)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>Galileo's HGA is stuck.
>The HGA was left closed, because galileo had a venus flyby.
>If the HGA were pointed att he sun, near venus, it would
>cook the foci elements.
>question: WHy couldn't Galileo's course manuevers have been
>designed such that the HGA did not ever do a sun point.?
The HGA isn't all that reflective in the wavelengths that might "cook the
focal elements", nor is its figure good on those scales--the problem is
that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to Venus-level sunlight,
lest like Icarus' wings it melt. (I think it was glues and such, as well
as electronics, that they were worried about.) Thus it had to remain
furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun, so that the small
sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded HGA.
(A larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus.)
--Mark Looper
"Hot Rodders--America's first recyclers!"
after prepro From looperccocaltechedu Mark D Looper
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost sandmancaltechedu
Keywords Galileo JPL
prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Galileos HGA is stuck
The HGA was left closed because galileo had a venus flyby
If the HGA were pointed att he sun near venus it would
cook the foci elements
question WHy couldnt Galileos course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA did not ever do a sun point
The HGA isnt all that reflective in the wavelengths that might cook the
focal elements nor is its figure good on those scalesthe problem is
that the antenna _itself_ could not be exposed to Venuslevel sunlight
lest like Icarus wings it melt I think it was glues and such as well
as electronics that they were worried about Thus it had to remain
furled and the axis _always_ pointed near the sun so that the small
sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded HGA
A larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus
Mark Looper
Hot RoddersAmericas first recyclers
preprocess doc From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: Small Astronaut (was: Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 25
In article <1pfkf5$7ab@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>Only one problem with sending a corp of Small astronauts.
>THey may want to start a galactic empire:-) Napoleon
>complex you know. Genghis Khan was a little guy too. I'd bet
>Julius caesar never broke 5'1".
I think you would lose your money. Julius was actually rather tall
for a Roman. He did go on record as favouring small soldiers though.
Thought they were tougher and had more guts. He was probably right
if you think about it. As for Napoleon remember that the French
avergae was just about 5 feet and that height is relative! Did he
really have a complex?
ObSpace : We have all seen the burning candle from High School that goes
out and relights. If there is a large hot body placed in space but in an
atmosphere, exactly how does it heat the surroundings? Diffusion only?
Joseph Askew
--
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
after prepro From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re Small Astronaut was Budget Astronaut
Organization Statistics Pure Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 25
In article 1pfkf57abaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Only one problem with sending a corp of Small astronauts
THey may want to start a galactic empire Napoleon
complex you know Genghis Khan was a little guy too Id bet
Julius caesar never broke 51
I think you would lose your money Julius was actually rather tall
for a Roman He did go on record as favouring small soldiers though
Thought they were tougher and had more guts He was probably right
if you think about it As for Napoleon remember that the French
avergae was just about 5 feet and that height is relative Did he
really have a complex
ObSpace We have all seen the burning candle from High School that goes
out and relights If there is a large hot body placed in space but in an
atmosphere exactly how does it heat the surroundings Diffusion only
Joseph Askew
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale the River murmurs on
preprocess doc From: n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier)
Subject: Re: What counntries do space surveillance?
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: harder.ccr-p.ida.org
In-reply-to: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com's message of 23 Apr 93 20:17:25 GMT
I can tell you that when AMSAT launched some birds along a Spot satellite
(French), that during installation of some instruments on Spot 2, there
heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners' look on there faces.
Spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit
surveillance.
BMc
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert W. McGwier | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org
Center for Communications Research | Interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf
Princeton, N.J. 08520 | Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700, Hightstown
after prepro From n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier
Subject Re What counntries do space surveillance
Organization IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines 13
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost harderccrpidaorg
Inreplyto thomsonalcpvasaiccoms message of 23 Apr 93 201725 GMT
I can tell you that when AMSAT launched some birds along a Spot satellite
French that during installation of some instruments on Spot 2 there
heavily armed legionaires who had a `take no prisoners look on there faces
Spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit
surveillance
BMc
Robert W McGwier n4hyccrpidaorg
Center for Communications Research Interests amateur radio astronomygolf
Princeton NJ 08520 Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700 Hightstown
preprocess doc From: jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: Caltech: Pasadena, California, USA
Lines: 12
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> If the new Kuiper belt object *is* called 'Karla', the next
>one should be called 'Smiley'.
Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.
--
Jeff Foust [49 days!] "You're from outer space."
Senior, Planetary Science, Caltech "No, I'm from Iowa. I only work in
jafoust@cco.caltech.edu outer space."
jeff@scn1.jpl.nasa.gov -- from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
after prepro From jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization Caltech Pasadena California USA
Lines 12
Distribution sci
NNTPPostingHost sandmancaltechedu
In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
If the new Kuiper belt object is called Karla the next
one should be called Smiley
Unless Im imaging things always a possibility 1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year is known as Smiley
Jeff Foust [49 days] Youre from outer space
Senior Planetary Science Caltech No Im from Iowa I only work in
jafoustccocaltechedu outer space
jeffscn1jplnasagov from Star Trek IV The Voyage Home
preprocess doc From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Area Rule (was Re: Space Research Spin Off)
Article-I.D.: bby.1993Apr6.064720.6920
<1pnuke$idn@access.digex.net> <SHAFER.93Apr4200752@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov>
<1ppm7j$ip@access.digex.net> <1993Apr5.133619.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 9
In-Reply-To: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov's message of 5 Apr 93 13:36:19 -0600
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw
Can somebody elaborate on "Area Ruling". I gather it's something to
do with aerodynamics of trans-sonic planes, and can be summarised as
"Coke bottle good, Coke can bad". Anyone provide more details,
derivation etc?
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knox's 386 is slick. Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
Knox's box is very quick. Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)
after prepro From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Area Rule was Re Space Research Spin Off
ArticleID bby1993Apr60647206920
1pnukeidnaccessdigexnet
1ppm7jipaccessdigexnet 1993Apr51336191fnalffnalgov
Organization Burdett Buckeridge Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 9
InReplyTo higginsfnalffnalgovs message of 5 Apr 93 133619 0600
NntpPostingHost leogw
Can somebody elaborate on Area Ruling I gather its something to
do with aerodynamics of transsonic planes and can be summarised as
Coke bottle good Coke can bad Anyone provide more details
derivation etc
Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knoxs 386 is slick Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
Knoxs box is very quick Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin
preprocess doc From: jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz)
Subject: SSRT Roll-Out Speech
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 101
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
SSRT ROLLOUT
Speech Delivered by Col. Simon P. Worden,
The Deputy for Technology, SDIO
Mcdonnell Douglas - Huntington Beach
April 3,1993
Most of you, as am I, are "children of the 1960's." We grew
up in an age of miracles -- Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles,
nuclear energy, computers, flights to the moon. But these were
miracles of our parent's doing. For a decade and more the pundits
have told us - "you've lost it!" The "me" generation is only
living on the accomplishments of the past.
You and I have even begun to believe the pessimists. We
listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs. Living
history they are. We are privileged to hear those who did it tell
of it. A few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as
General Bernie Schriever told of his team's work - and yes struggle
- to build this nation's Intercontinental Ballistic Missile.
What stories can we tell? Blurry-eyed telescopes? Thousand
dollar toilet seats? Even our space launch vehicles hearken only
of that past great time. They are and seem destined to remain Gen.
Schriever's ICBMs. I find it hard to swell with pride that the
best new space-lifter idea is to refurbish old Minuteman and
Poseidon ballistic missiles.
Well - The pessimists are wrong. The legacy is continuing.
This event is proof. To our technological parents: We've listened
to your stories. We've caught your enthusiasm and can-do spirit.
And we've learned from your achievements - and your mistakes. Let
me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus
behind this history - Max Hunter. You are one of the greatest
engineers of the firts great age of space exploration. Your
insight and discipline built the Thor ICBM - later incorporated
into today's most successful launch vehicle - The Delta.
You told us in the 60's that a new form of launch vehicle - a
single stage reusable rocket - can and should be built. You
advocated this idea tirelessly. It was elegantly simple, as are
all great breakthroughs. You showed us how to build it. You
convinced us it could be done. You are working by our side to weld
its components into place. Most important - you reminded us of a
prime engineering principle - undoubtably one you learned from the
generation before you - the generation that built transcontinental
aviation in the 1920's and 30's - build a little and test a little
and Max, you passed all of this on to people like Pat Ladner who
started this program for the SDI.
Douglas Aircraft didn't start with a DC-10. They didn't even
start with a DC-3. Our grandfathers built a little, tested a
little - even sold a little and made a little money - before they
moved on to the next step. They didn't take a decade or more
before putting the first "rubber on the road." Max Hunter - you
didn't take ten years to build Thor, and by God we're not going to
take ten years to show that low cost, single stage, reusable
aerospace transportation is real.
We ended the cold war in a few short years. It took the same
team here today but a few years to show through the Strategic
Defense Initiative that the cold war must end. We - you and us -
launched a series of satellites - The Delta experiments - in about
a year apiece. This, more than anything else signaled our
commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the Soviet
Union. Those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored
the importance of our work in bringing about a new international
relationship.
But it is the same team which is now putting in place the
framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the
next generation. We will make space access routine and affordable.
We built this magnificent flying machine in two years. This
summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the
first time. Then we can and surely will build in the next three
years a reusable sub-orbital rocket. It will allow us to use space
rapidly, affordably, and efficiently as no other nation can. And
yes - we'll make a little money off it too!
Then - and only then - we'll spend another three years to
build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system. The DC-3 of
space will be a reality! We may even be able to use some of the
rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries.
What a wonderful irony if this SDI product and Russian efforts to
counter SDI merge to power mankind's next step to the stars!
To be sure, we must guard against the temptations to leap to
the final answer. Robert Goddard's first rockets weren't Saturn
V's! If we succumb to the temptation to ask for just a few extra
dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital
system - we will fail. Max Hunter and his colleagues showed the
way. Three years and a cloud of dust - in our case rocket
exhausts. There is no short-cut. If we expect to reshape the
world again - we must do it one brick at a time. Minds on tasks at
hand!
This project is real. The torch of American technological
greatness is being passed. We are Americans. This machine is
American. Let's go fly it!
after prepro From jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz
Subject SSRT RollOut Speech
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 101
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
SSRT ROLLOUT
Speech Delivered by Col Simon P Worden
The Deputy for Technology SDIO
Mcdonnell Douglas Huntington Beach
April 31993
Most of you as am I are children of the 1960s We grew
up in an age of miracles InterContinental Ballistic Missiles
nuclear energy computers flights to the moon But these were
miracles of our parents doing For a decade and more the pundits
have told us youve lost it The me generation is only
living on the accomplishments of the past
You and I have even begun to believe the pessimists We
listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs Living
history they are We are privileged to hear those who did it tell
of it A few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as
General Bernie Schriever told of his teams work and yes struggle
to build this nations Intercontinental Ballistic Missile
What stories can we tell Blurryeyed telescopes Thousand
dollar toilet seats Even our space launch vehicles hearken only
of that past great time They are and seem destined to remain Gen
Schrievers ICBMs I find it hard to swell with pride that the
best new spacelifter idea is to refurbish old Minuteman and
Poseidon ballistic missiles
Well The pessimists are wrong The legacy is continuing
This event is proof To our technological parents Weve listened
to your stories Weve caught your enthusiasm and cando spirit
And weve learned from your achievements and your mistakes Let
me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus
behind this history Max Hunter You are one of the greatest
engineers of the firts great age of space exploration Your
insight and discipline built the Thor ICBM later incorporated
into todays most successful launch vehicle The Delta
You told us in the 60s that a new form of launch vehicle a
single stage reusable rocket can and should be built You
advocated this idea tirelessly It was elegantly simple as are
all great breakthroughs You showed us how to build it You
convinced us it could be done You are working by our side to weld
its components into place Most important you reminded us of a
prime engineering principle undoubtably one you learned from the
generation before you the generation that built transcontinental
aviation in the 1920s and 30s build a little and test a little
and Max you passed all of this on to people like Pat Ladner who
started this program for the SDI
Douglas Aircraft didnt start with a DC10 They didnt even
start with a DC3 Our grandfathers built a little tested a
little even sold a little and made a little money before they
moved on to the next step They didnt take a decade or more
before putting the first rubber on the road Max Hunter you
didnt take ten years to build Thor and by God were not going to
take ten years to show that low cost single stage reusable
aerospace transportation is real
We ended the cold war in a few short years It took the same
team here today but a few years to show through the Strategic
Defense Initiative that the cold war must end We you and us
launched a series of satellites The Delta experiments in about
a year apiece This more than anything else signaled our
commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the Soviet
Union Those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored
the importance of our work in bringing about a new international
relationship
But it is the same team which is now putting in place the
framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the
next generation We will make space access routine and affordable
We built this magnificent flying machine in two years This
summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the
first time Then we can and surely will build in the next three
years a reusable suborbital rocket It will allow us to use space
rapidly affordably and efficiently as no other nation can And
yes well make a little money off it too
Then and only then well spend another three years to
build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system The DC3 of
space will be a reality We may even be able to use some of the
rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries
What a wonderful irony if this SDI product and Russian efforts to
counter SDI merge to power mankinds next step to the stars
To be sure we must guard against the temptations to leap to
the final answer Robert Goddards first rockets werent Saturn
Vs If we succumb to the temptation to ask for just a few extra
dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital
system we will fail Max Hunter and his colleagues showed the
way Three years and a cloud of dust in our case rocket
exhausts There is no shortcut If we expect to reshape the
world again we must do it one brick at a time Minds on tasks at
hand
This project is real The torch of American technological
greatness is being passed We are Americans This machine is
American Lets go fly it
preprocess doc Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 29
In article <1993Apr6.124112.12959@dcs.warwick.ac.uk> simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>For the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether Bobby's for real,
>you betcha. Welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse.
>I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below. Is anyone
>(Keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff?
Sorry, I was, but I somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last
couple of months or so. However, thanks to the efforts of Bobby, it is being
replenished rather quickly!
Here is a recent favorite:
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re islamic authority over women
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 29
In article 1993Apr612411212959dcswarwickacuk simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale writes
For the guy who said hes just arrived and asked whether Bobbys for real
you betcha Welcome to altatheism and rest assured that it gets worse
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below Is anyone
Keith keeping a big file of such stuff
Sorry I was but I somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last
couple of months or so However thanks to the efforts of Bobby it is being
replenished rather quickly
Here is a recent favorite
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
In-Reply-To: prb@access.digex.com's message of 6 Apr 1993 14:06:57 -0400
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
<pgf.734062799@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
<SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> <1psgs1$so4@access.digex.net>
Lines: 38
On 6 Apr 1993 14:06:57 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:
Pat> In article <SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov>
Pat> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>successful we were. (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
>fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)
>
Pat> Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled. Didn't one of them
Pat> have a total electrical failure in flight? Was there machanical
Pat> backup systems?
All reaction-controlled aircraft are fly-by-wire, at least the RCS part
is. On the X-15 the aerodynamic control surfaces (elevator, rudder, etc)
were conventionally controlled (pushrods and cables) but the RCS jets
were fly-by-wire.
|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. On the other
|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
|can't do.
Pat> What do you mean? Overstress the wings, and they fail at teh
Pat> joints?
Navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings, in order to save space
on the hangar deck. The F-14 wings sweep, all the rest fold the
wingtips up at a joint.
Air Force planes don't have folding wings, since the Air Force has
lots of room.
--
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot
after prepro From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
InReplyTo prbaccessdigexcoms message of 6 Apr 1993 140657 0400
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
1psgs1so4accessdigexnet
Lines 38
On 6 Apr 1993 140657 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said
Pat In article
Pat shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes
successful we were Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog
Pat Gee I thought the X15 was Cable controlled Didnt one of them
Pat have a total electrical failure in flight Was there machanical
Pat backup systems
All reactioncontrolled aircraft are flybywire at least the RCS part
is On the X15 the aerodynamic control surfaces elevator rudder etc
were conventionally controlled pushrods and cables but the RCS jets
were flybywire
The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do
Pat What do you mean Overstress the wings and they fail at teh
Pat joints
Navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings in order to save space
on the hangar deck The F14 wings sweep all the rest fold the
wingtips up at a joint
Air Force planes dont have folding wings since the Air Force has
lots of room
Mary Shafer DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Of course I dont speak for NASA
A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all Unknown US fighter pilot
preprocess doc From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: Vandalizing the sky
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 12
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
>
> Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, [..]
> please try to remember that there are more human activities than
> those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
> Priesthood.
Right, the Profiting Caste is blessed by God, and may
freely blare its presence in the evening twilight ..
--
* Fred Baube (tm)
after prepro From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject Vandalizing the sky
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 12
From Phil G Fraering
Finally this isnt the Bronze Age []
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
Priesthood
Right the Profiting Caste is blessed by God and may
freely blare its presence in the evening twilight
Fred Baube tm
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 16
In <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com> pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>There are actually only two of us. I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary. Oh yeah,
>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
Yes, and I do everyone else. Why, you may wonder, don't I do 'Fred'?
Well, that would just be too *obvious*, wouldn't it? Oh yeah, this
isn't my real name, either. I'm actually Elvis. Or maybe a lemur; I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 16
In 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes
There are actually only two of us I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby
Yes and I do everyone else Why you may wonder dont I do Fred
Well that would just be too obvious wouldnt it Oh yeah this
isnt my real name either Im actually Elvis Or maybe a lemur I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Motorola
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 37
In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
>than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?
I haven't seen any speculation about it. But, the Salyut KB (Design Bureau)
was planning a new LH/LOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (Geostationary goes from
2600 kg. (Gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. This scheme was competing
with the Energia-M last year and I haven't heard which won, except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the Energia-M. So the early
results are Energia-M won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in
Russia. I'm sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue
their development.
The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton
is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad?
They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
(unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention.
Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL
after prepro From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Motorola
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 37
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now
I havent seen any speculation about it But the Salyut KB Design Bureau
was planning a new LHLOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg Geostationary goes from
2600 kg Gals launcher version to 6000 kg This scheme was competing
with the EnergiaM last year and I havent heard which won except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the EnergiaM So the early
results are EnergiaM won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in
Russia Im sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue
their development
The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton
is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad
They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention
Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL
preprocess doc From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 38
In article <1qi156INNf9n@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, tcbruno@athena.mit.edu (Tom Bruno) writes:
>
> Wow. Leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes
> away-- how depressing. Actually, there are a few familiar faces out there,
> counting Bob and Kent, but I don't seem to recognize anyone else. Has anyone
> heard from Graham Matthews recently, or has he gotten his degree and sailed
> for Greener Pastures (tm)?
>
> Which brings me to the point of my posting. How many people out there have
> been around alt.atheism since 1990? I've done my damnedest to stay on top of
> the newsgroup, but when you fall behind, you REALLY fall behind (it's still not
> as bad as rec.arts.startrek used to be, but I digress). Has anyone tried to
> keep up with the deluge? Inquiring minds want to know! Also-- does anyone
> keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt.atheism end up, once they
> leave the newsgroup? Just curious, I guess.
>
> cheers,
> tom bruno
I am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded
respect for people who have been on newsgroups/mailing lists longer than I
have, so you certainly have my sympathy Tom. I have only been semi-regularly
posting (it is TOUGHto keep up) since this February, but I have been reading
and following the threads since last August: my school's newsreader was down
for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new
feed site, so it wasn't accepting outgoing postings. I don't think anyone
keeps track of where other posters go: it's that old love 'em and leave 'em
Internet for you again...
best regards,
********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper "Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
* who thought themselves good simply because *
* acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." *
********************************************************************************
after prepro From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Macalester College
Lines 38
In article 1qi156INNf9nsenatorbedfellowMITEDU tcbrunoathenamitedu Tom Bruno writes
Wow Leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes
away how depressing Actually there are a few familiar faces out there
counting Bob and Kent but I dont seem to recognize anyone else Has anyone
heard from Graham Matthews recently or has he gotten his degree and sailed
for Greener Pastures tm
Which brings me to the point of my posting How many people out there have
been around altatheism since 1990 Ive done my damnedest to stay on top of
the newsgroup but when you fall behind you REALLY fall behind its still not
as bad as recartsstartrek used to be but I digress Has anyone tried to
keep up with the deluge Inquiring minds want to know Also does anyone
keep track of where the more infamous posters to altatheism end up once they
leave the newsgroup Just curious I guess
cheers
tom bruno
I am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded
respect for people who have been on newsgroupsmailing lists longer than I
have so you certainly have my sympathy Tom I have only been semiregularly
posting it is TOUGHto keep up since this February but I have been reading
and following the threads since last August my schools newsreader was down
for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new
feed site so it wasnt accepting outgoing postings I dont think anyone
keeps track of where other posters go its that old love em and leave em
Internet for you again
best regards
Adam John Cooper Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings
who thought themselves good simply because
acoopermacalstredu they had no claws
preprocess doc From: vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt)
Subject: Re: Islamic Banks (was Re: Slavery
Reply-To: vdp@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Foundation/Mayo Graduate School :Rochester, MN
Lines: 39
In article 28833@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
#In <1993Apr14.143121.26376@bmw.mayo.edu> vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt) writes:
#>So instead of calling it interest on deposits, you call it *returns on investements*
#>and instead of calling loans you call it *investing in business* (that is in other words
#>floating stocks in your company).
#
#No, interest is different from a return on an investment. For one
#thing, a return on an investment has greater risk, and not a set return
#(i.e. the amount of money you make can go up or down, or you might even
#lose money). The difference is, the risk of loss is shared by the
#investor, rather than practically all the risk being taken by the
#borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank.
#
But is it different from stocks ? If you wish to call an investor in stocks as
a banker, well then its your choice .....
#>Relabeling does not make it interest free !!
#
#It is not just relabeling, as I have explained above.
It *is* relabeling ...
Also its still not interest free. The investor is still taking some money ... as
dividend on his investment ... ofcourse the investor (in islamic *banking*, its your
so called *bank*) is taking more risk than the usual bank, but its still getting some
thing back in return ....
Also have you heard of junk bonds ???
---Vinayak
-------------------------------------------------------
vinayak dutt
e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu
standard disclaimers apply
-------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt
Subject Re Islamic Banks was Re Slavery
ReplyTo vdpmayoedu
Organization Mayo FoundationMayo Graduate School Rochester MN
Lines 39
In article 28833monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In 1993Apr1414312126376bmwmayoedu vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt writes
So instead of calling it interest on deposits you call it returns on investements
and instead of calling loans you call it investing in business that is in other words
floating stocks in your company
No interest is different from a return on an investment For one
thing a return on an investment has greater risk and not a set return
ie the amount of money you make can go up or down or you might even
lose money The difference is the risk of loss is shared by the
investor rather than practically all the risk being taken by the
borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank
But is it different from stocks If you wish to call an investor in stocks as
a banker well then its your choice
Relabeling does not make it interest free
It is not just relabeling as I have explained above
It is relabeling
Also its still not interest free The investor is still taking some money as
dividend on his investment ofcourse the investor in islamic banking its your
so called bank is taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some
thing back in return
Also have you heard of junk bonds
Vinayak
vinayak dutt
email vdpmayoedu
standard disclaimers apply
preprocess doc From: lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (Steve Lang)
Subject: Re: Objective Values 'v' Scientific Accuracy (was Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is)
Organization: Nottingham University
Lines: 38
In article <C5J718.Jzv@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly) wrote:
> In article <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>
> >Science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round,
> >as you would wish it.
>
> You must be using 'values' to mean something different from the way I
> see it used normally.
>
> And you are certainly using 'Science' like that if you equate it to
> "the real world".
>
> Science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the Universe
> and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning
> those perceptions.
Science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed
interpretations of our observations (perceptions).
> It has nothing to do with values as far as I can see.
> Values are ... well they are what I value.
> They are what I would have rather than not have - what I would experience
> rather than not, and so on.
Values can also refer to meaning. For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE, and 0 is FALSE. Science is based on commonly agreed
values (interpretation of observations), although science can result in a
reinterpretation of these values.
> Objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are
> applicable to everyone.
The values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been
fully agreed, and the change with time. The values of Newtonian physic are
certainly different to those of Quantum Mechanics.
Steve Lang
SLANG->SLING->SLINK->SLICK->SLACK->SHACK->SHANK->THANK->THINK->THICK
after prepro From lpzsmlunicornnottacuk Steve Lang
Subject Re Objective Values v Scientific Accuracy was Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Nottingham University
Lines 38
In article tkdcsedacuk Tommy Kelly wrote
In article 1qjahhmrshorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round
as you would wish it
You must be using values to mean something different from the way I
see it used normally
And you are certainly using Science like that if you equate it to
the real world
Science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the Universe
and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning
those perceptions
Science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed
interpretations of our observations perceptions
It has nothing to do with values as far as I can see
Values are well they are what I value
They are what I would have rather than not have what I would experience
rather than not and so on
Values can also refer to meaning For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE and 0 is FALSE Science is based on commonly agreed
values interpretation of observations although science can result in a
reinterpretation of these values
Objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are
applicable to everyone
The values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been
fully agreed and the change with time The values of Newtonian physic are
certainly different to those of Quantum Mechanics
Steve Lang
SLANGSLINGSLINKSLICKSLACKSHACKSHANKTHANKTHINKTHICK
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: MACH 25 landing site bases?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.193829.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 7
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
The supersonic booms hear a few months ago over I belive San Fran, heading east
of what I heard, some new super speed Mach 25 aircraft?? What military based
int he direction of flight are there that could handle a Mach 25aircraft on its
landing decent?? Odd question??
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject MACH 25 landing site bases
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51938291
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 7
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
The supersonic booms hear a few months ago over I belive San Fran heading east
of what I heard some new super speed Mach 25 aircraft What military based
int he direction of flight are there that could handle a Mach 25aircraft on its
landing decent Odd question
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Suggestion for "resources" FAQ
In-Reply-To: <C5qKDy.40D@liverpool.ac.uk>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 34
>DATE: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:01:10 GMT
>FROM: Bruce Stephens <bruce@liverpool.ac.uk>
>
>I think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good.
>
>I confess I don't know of any---indeed that's why I checked the FAQ to see
>if it had one---but I'm sure some alert reader does.
>
>I think the list of books suffers far too much from being Christian based;
>I agree that most of the traffic is of this nature (although a few Islamic
>references might be good) but I still think an overview would be nice.
One book I have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions
is called _Man's Religions_ by John B. Noss. It was a textbook in a class
I had on comparative religion or some such thing. It has some decent
bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading.
It doesn't "compare" religions directly but describes each one individually
and notes a few similarities. But nothing I have read in it could be even
remotely described as preachy or Christian based. In fact, Christianity
mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages. The book is
divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began
(India, East Asia, Near East). There is nothing about New World religions
from the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, etc. Just the stuff people kill each
other over nowadays. And a few of the older religions snuffed out along
the way.
If you like the old stuff, then a couple of books called "The Ancient Near
East" by James B. Pritchard are pretty cool. Got the Epic of Gilgamesh,
Code of Hammurabi, all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods
were men. Essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own
religion and make it sound real good.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re Suggestion for resources FAQ
InReplyTo
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 34
DATE Mon 19 Apr 1993 150110 GMT
FROM Bruce Stephens
I think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good
I confess I dont know of anyindeed thats why I checked the FAQ to see
if it had onebut Im sure some alert reader does
I think the list of books suffers far too much from being Christian based
I agree that most of the traffic is of this nature although a few Islamic
references might be good but I still think an overview would be nice
One book I have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions
is called _Mans Religions_ by John B Noss It was a textbook in a class
I had on comparative religion or some such thing It has some decent
bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading
It doesnt compare religions directly but describes each one individually
and notes a few similarities But nothing I have read in it could be even
remotely described as preachy or Christian based In fact Christianity
mercifully consumes only 90 or so of its nearly 600 pages The book is
divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began
India East Asia Near East There is nothing about New World religions
from the Aztecs Mayas Incas etc Just the stuff people kill each
other over nowadays And a few of the older religions snuffed out along
the way
If you like the old stuff then a couple of books called The Ancient Near
East by James B Pritchard are pretty cool Got the Epic of Gilgamesh
Code of Hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods
were men Essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own
religion and make it sound real good
preprocess doc From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: Looking for a little research help
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 19
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com
Hi,
I'm writing a science fiction script and I'm looking for some
answers to questions regarding the Moon and Earth. My starting point
is an impossible situation. [I checked with a professor at berkeley
and his response was a VERY helpful "can't happen".] If you enjoy
playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions
please contact me via e-mail (jennise@dgi.com).
I get extremely annoyed when screen and tele-plays ignore basic
facts about computers that I'm determined to be as scientifically
accurate as I can.
Sorry for being vague, but I'd like to protect my idea as much as I
can until I'm ready to sell it (hopefully).
Jennise
after prepro From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject Looking for a little research help
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 19
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom
Hi
Im writing a science fiction script and Im looking for some
answers to questions regarding the Moon and Earth My starting point
is an impossible situation [I checked with a professor at berkeley
and his response was a VERY helpful cant happen] If you enjoy
playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions
please contact me via email jennisedgicom
I get extremely annoyed when screen and teleplays ignore basic
facts about computers that Im determined to be as scientifically
accurate as I can
Sorry for being vague but Id like to protect my idea as much as I
can until Im ready to sell it hopefully
Jennise
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 19
In article <115846@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
(Deletion)
>Certainly. It is a central aspect of Islam to show mercy and to give
>those who've done wrong (even presuming Rushdie _did_ violate Islamic
>Law) and committed crimes. This was the basis for my posts regarding
>leniency which seemed not to have penetrated Benedikt's skull.
You have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes. Repeating
offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at
all. Typically religious doublespeak. Whenever you have contradictory
statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument.
It is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make Theodore KKKaldis
feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion.
Gregg, tell us, would you kill idolaters?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 19
In article 115846buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Deletion
Certainly It is a central aspect of Islam to show mercy and to give
those whove done wrong even presuming Rushdie _did_ violate Islamic
Law and committed crimes This was the basis for my posts regarding
leniency which seemed not to have penetrated Benedikts skull
You have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes Repeating
offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at
all Typically religious doublespeak Whenever you have contradictory
statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument
It is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make Theodore KKKaldis
feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion
Gregg tell us would you kill idolaters
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Elevator to the top floor
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 56
Reading from a Amoco Performance Products data sheet, their
ERL-1906 resin with T40 carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive
strength of 280,000 psi. It has a density of 0.058 lb/cu in,
therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column
that can just support itself is 4.8 million inches, or 400,000 ft,
or 75 Statute miles.
Now, a real structure will have horizontal bracing (either a truss
type, or guy wires, or both) and will be used below the crush strength.
Let us assume that we will operate at 40% of the theoretical
strength. This gives a working height of 30 miles for a constant
section column.
A constant section column is not the limit on how high you can
build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section
as you go up. For example, let us say you have a 280,000 pound
load to support at the top of the tower (for simplicity in
calculation). This requires 2.5 square inches of column cross
sectional area to support the weight. The mile of structure
below the payload will itself weigh 9,200 lb, so at 1 mile
below the payload, the total load is now 289,200 lb, a 3.3% increase.
The next mile of structure must be 3.3% thicker in cross section
to support the top mile of tower plus the payload. Each mile
of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way
to the bottom. We can see from this that there is no theoretical
limit on area, although there will be practical limits based
on how much composites we can afford to by at $40/lb, and how
much load you need to support on the ground (for which you need
a foundation that the bedrock can support.
Let us arbitrarily choose $1 billion as the limit in costruction
cost. With this we can afford perhaps 10,000,000 lb of composites,
assuming our finished structure costs $100/lb. The $40/lb figure
is just for materials cost. Then we have a tower/payload mass
ratio of 35.7:1. At a 3.3% mass ratio per mile, the tower
height becomes 111 miles. This is clearly above the significant
atmosphere. A rocket launched from the top of the tower will still
have to provide orbital velocity, but atmospheric drag and g-losses
will be almost eliminated. G-losses are the component of
rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity,
but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity. Thus
they represent wasted thrust. Together with drag, rockets starting
from the ground have a 15% velocity penalty to contend with.
This analysis is simplified, in that it does not consider wind
loads. These will require more structural support over the first
15 miles of height. Above that, the air pressure drops to a low
enough value for it not to be a big factor.
Dani Eder
--
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
after prepro From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Elevator to the top floor
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 56
Reading from a Amoco Performance Products data sheet their
ERL1906 resin with T40 carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive
strength of 280000 psi It has a density of 0058 lbcu in
therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column
that can just support itself is 48 million inches or 400000 ft
or 75 Statute miles
Now a real structure will have horizontal bracing either a truss
type or guy wires or both and will be used below the crush strength
Let us assume that we will operate at 40 of the theoretical
strength This gives a working height of 30 miles for a constant
section column
A constant section column is not the limit on how high you can
build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section
as you go up For example let us say you have a 280000 pound
load to support at the top of the tower for simplicity in
calculation This requires 25 square inches of column cross
sectional area to support the weight The mile of structure
below the payload will itself weigh 9200 lb so at 1 mile
below the payload the total load is now 289200 lb a 33 increase
The next mile of structure must be 33 thicker in cross section
to support the top mile of tower plus the payload Each mile
of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way
to the bottom We can see from this that there is no theoretical
limit on area although there will be practical limits based
on how much composites we can afford to by at 40lb and how
much load you need to support on the ground for which you need
a foundation that the bedrock can support
Let us arbitrarily choose 1 billion as the limit in costruction
cost With this we can afford perhaps 10000000 lb of composites
assuming our finished structure costs 100lb The 40lb figure
is just for materials cost Then we have a towerpayload mass
ratio of 3571 At a 33 mass ratio per mile the tower
height becomes 111 miles This is clearly above the significant
atmosphere A rocket launched from the top of the tower will still
have to provide orbital velocity but atmospheric drag and glosses
will be almost eliminated Glosses are the component of
rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity
but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity Thus
they represent wasted thrust Together with drag rockets starting
from the ground have a 15 velocity penalty to contend with
This analysis is simplified in that it does not consider wind
loads These will require more structural support over the first
15 miles of height Above that the air pressure drops to a low
enough value for it not to be a big factor
Dani Eder
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 14
This is fascinating. Atheists argue for abortion, defend homosexuality
as a means of population control, insist that the only values are
biological and condemn war and capital punishment. According to
Benedikt, if something is contardictory, it cannot exist, which in
this case means atheists I suppose.
I would like to understand how an atheist can object to war (an
excellent means of controlling population growth), or to capital
punishment, I'm sorry but the logic escapes me.
And why just capital punishment, what is being questioned here, the
propriety of killing or of punishment? What is the basis of the
ecomplaint?
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 14
This is fascinating Atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality
as a means of population control insist that the only values are
biological and condemn war and capital punishment According to
Benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in
this case means atheists I suppose
I would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an
excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital
punishment Im sorry but the logic escapes me
And why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the
propriety of killing or of punishment What is the basis of the
ecomplaint
Bill
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek (Better Ideas)
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.154449.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1rbp6q$oai@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> In article <1993Apr22.214735.22733@Princeton.EDU> phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser) writes:
>>A transporter operator!?!? That better be one important transport. Usually
>>it is a nameless ensign who does the job. For such a guest appearance I would
>>have expected a more visible/meaningful role.
>
>
> Christian Slater, only gota cameo on ST6,
>
> and besides.
>
> Maybe she can't act:-)
>
> pat
>
Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch..
Maybe age Jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost..
Heh of late, they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media,
anything can happen..
Imagine a Astronaut/Crew member to find themselves in the 24th Century as the
object of interest of an alien civilization, maybe rescued or helped by the ST
Enterprise... I know Vegr and such was okay, but this could be better..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek Better Ideas
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251544491
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 31
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1rbp6qoaiaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Apr2221473522733PrincetonEDU phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser writes
A transporter operator That better be one important transport Usually
it is a nameless ensign who does the job For such a guest appearance I would
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role
Christian Slater only gota cameo on ST6
and besides
Maybe she cant act
pat
Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other spacetime glitch
Maybe age Jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost
Heh of late they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media
anything can happen
Imagine a AstronautCrew member to find themselves in the 24th Century as the
object of interest of an alien civilization maybe rescued or helped by the ST
Enterprise I know Vegr and such was okay but this could be better
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 25
In article <schumach.734984753@convex.convex.com> schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>Would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use
>as a reuseable sounding rocket?
DC-X as is today isn't suitable for this. However, the followon SDIO
funds will. A reusable sounding rocket was always SDIO's goal.
>Thank Ghod! I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
>bastard Son of NLS.
So did I. There is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon
which should be very favorable. The insiders have been very bush briefing
the right people and it is now paying off.
However, public support is STILL critical. In politics you need to keep
constant pressure on elected officials.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 25
In article schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher writes
Would the suborbital version be suitable asis or aswillbe for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket
DCX as is today isnt suitable for this However the followon SDIO
funds will A reusable sounding rocket was always SDIOs goal
Thank Ghod I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS
So did I There is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon
which should be very favorable The insiders have been very bush briefing
the right people and it is now paying off
However public support is STILL critical In politics you need to keep
constant pressure on elected officials
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
In article <115571@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <2BCC892B.21864@ics.uci.edu> bvickers@ics.uci.edu (Brett J. Vickers) writes:
>
>>In article <115290@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>
>>>Well, seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
>>>would not be relevant to you. I can understand your fear of persecution
>>>and I share it even more than you (being muslim), however Rushdie's
>>>behavior was not completely excusable.
As much as I considered some of the (so-called) Islam-related dialogue
here a total waste of time, I somehow can't restrain myself in this
instance, so, Gregg, try this:
20:52 P.S.T. I come to my senses and accept the all-knowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah. Not only that, but Allah
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice. Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down. Then Allah gets out the Crisco, bends
over, and invites me to take a spin around the block. Wow.
20:56 P.S.T. I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a
commitment than I'm ready for, so I say "Man, I've got some
programming to do. Gotta go. I'll call you."
20:59 P.S.T Thinking it over, I renounce Islam.
BTW, Gregg, Allah said he still thinks of you.
Jim
after prepro From jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost carsonuwashingtonedu
In article 115571buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 2BCC892B21864icsuciedu bvickersicsuciedu Brett J Vickers writes
In article 115290buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by Khomeini
would not be relevant to you I can understand your fear of persecution
and I share it even more than you being muslim however Rushdies
behavior was not completely excusable
As much as I considered some of the socalled Islamrelated dialogue
here a total waste of time I somehow cant restrain myself in this
instance so Gregg try this
2052 PST I come to my senses and accept the allknowing
wisdom and power of the Quran and Allah Not only that but Allah
himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice Allah rolls a
few bones and we get down Then Allah gets out the Crisco bends
over and invites me to take a spin around the block Wow
2056 PST I realize that maybe Allah is looking for more of a
commitment than Im ready for so I say Man Ive got some
programming to do Gotta go Ill call you
2059 PST Thinking it over I renounce Islam
BTW Gregg Allah said he still thinks of you
Jim
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
In-Reply-To: <timmbake.735261806@mcl>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 18
>DATE: 19 Apr 93 23:23:26 GMT
>FROM: Bake Timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu>
>
>My my, there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands. :)
>
>OK, first I apologize. I didn't bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
>imprecise flame. That was inexcusable.
>
How about the nickname Bake "Flamethrower" Timmons?
You weren't at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you?
Remember, Koresh "dried" for your sins.
And pass that beef jerky. Umm Umm.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
InReplyTo
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 18
DATE 19 Apr 93 232326 GMT
FROM Bake Timmons
My my there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands
OK first I apologize I didnt bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
imprecise flame That was inexcusable
How about the nickname Bake Flamethrower Timmons
You werent at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you
Remember Koresh dried for your sins
And pass that beef jerky Umm Umm
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 22
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <1993Apr21.204941.15055@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>
>>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
>
>Why would you want to do that? The goal is to do it cheaper (remember,
>this isn't government). Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad,
>just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility.
Allen, sometimes I think you're OK. And sometimes you tend to rashly leap into
making statement without thinking them out.
Wanna guess which today?
You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
of a private Titan pad?
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 22
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article 1993Apr2120494115055itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Why would you want to do that The goal is to do it cheaper remember
this isnt government Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility
Allen sometimes I think youre OK And sometimes you tend to rashly leap into
making statement without thinking them out
Wanna guess which today
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Organization: University of Central Florida
Distribution: na
Lines: 18
> In <1993Apr3.233154.7045@Princeton.EDU> lije@cognito.Princeton.EDU (Elijah
Millgram) writes:
>
>
> A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression "pushing
> the envelope" comes from. Anyone out there know?
>
Everbody has been defining envelope.
Why was the world "envelope" chosen, rather than say "shell",
or "boundary". In analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps?
Actually, "shell" might be good. Push the shell too hard and
it (the aircraft?) breaks.
--
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training, University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway, Suite 300, Orlando, FL 32826
(407)658-5030, FAX: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu
after prepro From clarkeacmeucfedu Thomas Clarke
Subject Re pushing the envelope
Organization University of Central Florida
Distribution na
Lines 18
In 1993Apr32331547045PrincetonEDU lijecognitoPrincetonEDU Elijah
Millgram writes
A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression pushing
the envelope comes from Anyone out there know
Everbody has been defining envelope
Why was the world envelope chosen rather than say shell
or boundary In analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps
Actually shell might be good Push the shell too hard and
it the aircraft breaks
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway Suite 300 Orlando FL 32826
4076585030 FAX 4076585059 clarkeacmeucfedu
preprocess doc From: goltz@mimi.UU.NET (James P. Goltz)
Subject: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA, USA
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: mimi.uu.net
Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept. It
would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft.
The idea was that you'd detonate devices with somewhere from one to
ten megatons yield behind a "pusher plate" attached to the main
spacecraft. The shock wave from the explosions would transfer
momentum to the ship.
Now, in an atmosphere I can see this. The energy of the explosion
heats the atmosphere, which expands explosively and slams a shock wave
into the pusher plate. But in a vacuum, only two things I can see are
going to hit the plate: fission/fusion products (barium, krypton,
helium, neutrons, evaporated bomb casing) and electromagnetic
radiation (gammas mostly, some light/heat from irradiated fission
products).
Would this work? I can't see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum (especially given the mass of the pusher plate), and it seems
to me you're going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
they're there.
I must be missing something. Would someone enlighten me via email?
Thanks.
--
--Jim
---
Jim Goltz AlterNet Engineer goltz@uunet.uu.net
after prepro From goltzmimiUUNET James P Goltz
Subject Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization UUNET Technologies Inc Falls Church VA USA
Lines 31
NNTPPostingHost mimiuunet
Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept It
would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft
The idea was that youd detonate devices with somewhere from one to
ten megatons yield behind a pusher plate attached to the main
spacecraft The shock wave from the explosions would transfer
momentum to the ship
Now in an atmosphere I can see this The energy of the explosion
heats the atmosphere which expands explosively and slams a shock wave
into the pusher plate But in a vacuum only two things I can see are
going to hit the plate fissionfusion products barium krypton
helium neutrons evaporated bomb casing and electromagnetic
radiation gammas mostly some lightheat from irradiated fission
products
Would this work I cant see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems
to me youre going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
theyre there
I must be missing something Would someone enlighten me via email
Thanks
Jim
Jim Goltz AlterNet Engineer goltzuunetuunet
preprocess doc From: jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov (J. I. Blackshear Jr.)
Subject: DSPSE (was Why Clementine?)
Reply-To: jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: Barrios Technology @ NASA/JSC; Houston
Lines: 29
The SDIO has "contracted" with the NRL (Naval Research Laboratory) to fly the Clementine Mission. BTW we call it DSPSE (Deep Space Project Science Experiment).
The NRL is building the spacecraft, designing the detailed mission and doing the
integration and operations (with help from, JPL & Goddard & prob. some folks I
have left out...don't be mad).
I am on the TAMP (Trajectory Analysis & Mission Planning) team and am responsable
for the IV&V of the traj that Goddard/CSC are designing.
As for why SDIO is doing it, some of the reasons are:
1) the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the LIDAR in LEO
2) in LEO we don't get any new radiation data on the sensors, we will get
that data on our 9 passages through the Van Allen (sp?) Belts
3) since we are going out there...why not piggy-back some general science
4) the intercept problem is a lot easied over LONG distances and LONG times
I am sure there are some things I have forgotten, and some I haven't been told
but, those are the reasons we all talk about.
--
Jim Blackshear
jib@bonnie.jsc.nasa.gov
after prepro From jibbonniejscnasagov J I Blackshear Jr
Subject DSPSE was Why Clementine
ReplyTo jibbonniejscnasagov
Organization Barrios Technology NASAJSC Houston
Lines 29
The SDIO has contracted with the NRL Naval Research Laboratory to fly the Clementine Mission BTW we call it DSPSE Deep Space Project Science Experiment
The NRL is building the spacecraft designing the detailed mission and doing the
integration and operations with help from JPL Goddard prob some folks I
have left outdont be mad
I am on the TAMP Trajectory Analysis Mission Planning team and am responsable
for the IVV of the traj that GoddardCSC are designing
As for why SDIO is doing it some of the reasons are
1 the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the LIDAR in LEO
2 in LEO we dont get any new radiation data on the sensors we will get
that data on our 9 passages through the Van Allen sp Belts
3 since we are going out therewhy not piggyback some general science
4 the intercept problem is a lot easied over LONG distances and LONG times
I am sure there are some things I have forgotten and some I havent been told
but those are the reasons we all talk about
Jim Blackshear
jibbonniejscnasagov
preprocess doc From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject: ORION space drive
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: beethoven.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 16
An excellent reference for non-technical readers on the ORION system is
"The Starflight Handbook", by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff, ISBN
0-471-61912-4. The relevant chapter is 4: Nuclear Pulse Propulsion.
The book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically
inclined.
Enjoy!
---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/ Nathan F. Wallace C/C/ "Reality Is" C/
C/ e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu C/C/ ancient Alphaean proverb C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
after prepro From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject ORION space drive
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost beethovencscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University Computer Science Dept
Lines 16
An excellent reference for nontechnical readers on the ORION system is
The Starflight Handbook by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff ISBN
0471619124 The relevant chapter is 4 Nuclear Pulse Propulsion
The book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically
inclined
Enjoy
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C Nathan F Wallace CC Reality Is C
C email wallacencscolostateedu CC ancient Alphaean proverb C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
preprocess doc From: ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick)
Subject: DC-X & DC-Y
Organization: Rutherford Appleton Lab, UK
Lines: 15
Hi guys,
I've been hearing lots of talk on the net about DC-X and DC-Y,
but none of the many posts actually explain what they are !!! Sorry if
this is a FAQ, but would somebody please explain to me what they are.
Reply by Email please . . . thanks.
Andy
ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk
--
-----------------------------------
Andy Jonathan J. Broderick, | "I have come that they might have |
Rutherford Lab., UK | life, and have it to the full" |
Mail : ajjb@adam2.bnsc.rl.ac.uk | - Jesus Christ |
after prepro From ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick
Subject DCX DCY
Organization Rutherford Appleton Lab UK
Lines 15
Hi guys
Ive been hearing lots of talk on the net about DCX and DCY
but none of the many posts actually explain what they are Sorry if
this is a FAQ but would somebody please explain to me what they are
Reply by Email please thanks
Andy
ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk
Andy Jonathan J Broderick I have come that they might have
Rutherford Lab UK life and have it to the full
Mail ajjbadam2bnscrlacuk Jesus Christ
preprocess doc Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 11
In article <1993Apr3.214741.14026@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>
> My claim is that a person that committs a crime doesn't believe in
> God, for the moment that the crime is committed, at least, whether
> they are originally believers or not. To believe is to do good.
> Your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism.
And doubtless, when an atheist does an act of charity
they temporarily become a Baptist.
jon.
after prepro Subject Re islamic authority over women
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 11
In article 1993Apr321474114026ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
My claim is that a person that committs a crime doesnt believe in
God for the moment that the crime is committed at least whether
they are originally believers or not To believe is to do good
Your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism
And doubtless when an atheist does an act of charity
they temporarily become a Baptist
jon
preprocess doc From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War
Lines: 128
In article <930414.121019.7E4.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr12.143834.26803@seachg.com> chrisb@seachg.com (Chris
>>Blask) writes:
>>>Add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death (special cell
>>>block, years of court costs, extra guards...) and the benefits of the death
>>>penalty entirely disappear.
>>
>> That's because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death
>> overrides the benefit of all the others. Obviously it's tragic, but
>> it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty. If we went
>> to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time
>> (because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect), then
>> there is no way to win the war.
>
> Yes. Fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power,
> and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of
> thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait. We won the war,
> hurrah hurrah!
The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and
exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media. The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians
in any other war of comparable size this century! This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently.
The idea that "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi citizens died is
ludicrous. Not even "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi soldiers died,
and they were the ones being targeted! Or do you think that the US
and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim Iraqi civilians?
Either the smart bombs didn't hit their targets (and we know they did),
or they were targeting civilian targets (!) which is hardly condusive to
destroying Iraq's military potential. The military mission planners are
not fools, they know they have to hit *military* targets to win a war.
Hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you,
not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their
tyrant-dictator.
>
> OK, so some innocent people died. Yes, maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing
> along that road didn't need to be bombed to bits. Perhaps that kid with half
> his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren't
> entirely guilty. But it's worth the death of a few innocents to save the
> oil^H^H^Hlives of the Kuwaiti people, isn't it? After all, the Iraqis may
> not have had a chance to vote for Saddam, but they showed their acceptance of
> his regime by not assassinating him, right? All that surrendering and
> fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy. We were entirely within
> our rights to bomb 'em just in case, without finding out if they were
> soldiers.
How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
I don't hear you bemoaning them! War is never an exact science, but
with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties. Sometimes mistakes are made; targets are
misidentified; innocents die. That's war the way it really is.
But the alternative, to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth
like it's one big rummage sale, grabbing everything they can get is
worse. Like Patrick Henry said some 217 years ago, "I know not what
course others may take -- but as for me, give me liberty, or give me
death!" War is always the price one must be willing to pay if one
wishes to stay free.
>
>> The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime, but the legal
>> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court
>> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
>> it should be. Hence the question is, do we instate the death penalty as
>> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of
>> it entirely?
>
> Yes, let's reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be. All that shit
> about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice.
> Let's give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty, and save
> ourselves the expense of all those lawyers.
>
> Think of the knock-on benefits, too. LA would never have had to spend so
> much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops
> had been allowed to do their job properly. A quick bullet through the head
> of Rodney King and another for the cameraman, and everyone would have been
> saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense.
>
> After all, if the police decide a man's guilty, that ought to be enough. The
> fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect
> over imprisonment, well, that's entirely irrelevant.
>
>
> mathew
> --
Mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here.
You come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although I
feel sure that was not your intent.
So the Iraqi war was wrong, eh? I'm sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war, just like it did in WW2, eh? I guess we
shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg. How about all the poor
French who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent? We
should have just let Hitler take over Europe, and you'd be speaking
German instead of English right now.
Tyrants like Hussein *have* to be stopped. His kind don't understand
diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun. My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into Baghdad, so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi people's sacrifice (not to
mention the 357 Americans who died) was for naught. Liberating Kuwait
was a good thing, but wiping Hussein off the map would've been better!
And as for poor, poor Rodney King! Did you ever stop and think *why*
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
have not seen. When one makes a judgment without the benefit of a
trial where evidence can be presented on both sides, one has simply
lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice, a state-of-mind
which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against, but instead tends
to support in the case against the policemen.
Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused,
whether they be criminals or cops. One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict. Anyone else is simply
succumbing to verbal vigilantism.
Regards,
Jim B.
after prepro From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty Gulf War
Lines 128
In article 9304141210197E4rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding writes
In article 1993Apr1214383426803seachgcom chrisbseachgcom Chris
Blask writes
Add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death special cell
block years of court costs extra guards and the benefits of the death
penalty entirely disappear
Thats because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death
overrides the benefit of all the others Obviously its tragic but
it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty If we went
to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time
because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect then
there is no way to win the war
Yes Fortunately we have rightthinking folks like your good self in power
and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of
thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait We won the war
hurrah hurrah
The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way overexaggerated and
exploited for antiwar emotionalism by the liberal news media The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians
in any other war of comparable size this century This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently
The idea that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens died is
ludicrous Not even hundreds of thousands of Iraqi soldiers died
and they were the ones being targeted Or do you think that the US
and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim Iraqi civilians
Either the smart bombs didnt hit their targets and we know they did
or they were targeting civilian targets which is hardly condusive to
destroying Iraqs military potential The military mission planners are
not fools they know they have to hit military targets to win a war
Hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you
not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their
tyrantdictator
OK so some innocent people died Yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing
along that road didnt need to be bombed to bits Perhaps that kid with half
his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs werent
entirely guilty But its worth the death of a few innocents to save the
oil^H^H^Hlives of the Kuwaiti people isnt it After all the Iraqis may
not have had a chance to vote for Saddam but they showed their acceptance of
his regime by not assassinating him right All that surrendering and
fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy We were entirely within
our rights to bomb em just in case without finding out if they were
soldiers
How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
I dont hear you bemoaning them War is never an exact science but
with smart bombs its becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties Sometimes mistakes are made targets are
misidentified innocents die Thats war the way it really is
But the alternative to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth
like its one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get is
worse Like Patrick Henry said some 217 years ago I know not what
course others may take but as for me give me liberty or give me
death War is always the price one must be willing to pay if one
wishes to stay free
The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal
shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court
battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
it should be Hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as
it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of
it entirely
Yes lets reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be All that shit
about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice
Lets give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty and save
ourselves the expense of all those lawyers
Think of the knockon benefits too LA would never have had to spend so
much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops
had been allowed to do their job properly A quick bullet through the head
of Rodney King and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been
saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense
After all if the police decide a mans guilty that ought to be enough The
fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect
over imprisonment well thats entirely irrelevant
mathew
Mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely offbase here
You come off sounding like a complete peacenik idiot although I
feel sure that was not your intent
So the Iraqi war was wrong eh Im sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war just like it did in WW2 eh I guess we
shouldnt have fought WW2 either just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg How about all the poor
French who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent We
should have just let Hitler take over Europe and youd be speaking
German instead of English right now
Tyrants like Hussein have to be stopped His kind dont understand
diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didnt have the military roll into Baghdad so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi peoples sacrifice not to
mention the 357 Americans who died was for naught Liberating Kuwait
was a good thing but wiping Hussein off the map wouldve been better
And as for poor poor Rodney King Did you ever stop and think why
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
have not seen When one makes a judgment without the benefit of a
trial where evidence can be presented on both sides one has simply
lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice a stateofmind
which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends
to support in the case against the policemen
Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused
whether they be criminals or cops One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of ones guilt and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict Anyone else is simply
succumbing to verbal vigilantism
Regards
Jim B
preprocess doc From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 44
In article <C5w5un.Bpq@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry
Spencer) wrote:
>
> The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply (for
> more than a brief visit, at least) is low-cost transport to Earth orbit.
> For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs, you can develop
> a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper. (Delta Clipper
> might be a bit more expensive than this, perhaps, but there are less
> ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit.)
Ah, there's the rub. And a catch-22 to boot. For the purposes of a
contest, you'll probably not compete if'n you can't afford the ride to get
there. And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable, without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system. Course, if a
low priced system existed, there might be demand...
I wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage
low cost payload delivery systems. The accounting methods would probably
be the hardest to work out. For example, would you allow Rockwell to
'loan' you the engines? And so forth...
> Any plan for doing
> sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
> money in a big way.
>
This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line. In other
words, perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology (life support,
navigation, etc.) could be developed prior to a low cost launch system.
You wouldn't want to use the expensive stuff forever, but I'd hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac, oops, I mean launch
system comes on line.
I guess I'd simplify this to say that 'waste' is a slippery concept. If
your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next 5 years, then perhaps its
not 'wasted' money. If your goal is to explore the moon for under $500
million, then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so.
Craig
Craig Keithley |"I don't remember, I don't recall,
Apple Computer, Inc. |I got no memory of anything at all"
keithley@apple.com |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)
after prepro From keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization Apple Computer Inc
Lines 44
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry
Spencer wrote
The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply for
more than a brief visit at least is lowcost transport to Earth orbit
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit
Ah theres the rub And a catch22 to boot For the purposes of a
contest youll probably not compete ifn you cant afford the ride to get
there And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system Course if a
low priced system existed there might be demand
I wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage
low cost payload delivery systems The accounting methods would probably
be the hardest to work out For example would you allow Rockwell to
loan you the engines And so forth
Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way
This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line In other
words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support
navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system
You wouldnt want to use the expensive stuff forever but Id hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac oops I mean launch
system comes on line
I guess Id simplify this to say that waste is a slippery concept If
your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next 5 years then perhaps its
not wasted money If your goal is to explore the moon for under 500
million then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so
Craig
Craig Keithley I dont remember I dont recall
Apple Computer Inc I got no memory of anything at all
keithleyapplecom Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980
preprocess doc From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: LRDPA news
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 28
Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the
Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now. This bill, also known as the Back to
the Moon bill, would authorize the U.S.
government to purchase lunar science data from private
and non-profit vendors, selected on the basis of competitive bidding, with an
aggregate cap on bid awards of $65 million.
If you have a copy of the bill, and can't or don't want to go through
all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislation,don't both - you have
a free resource to evaluate the bill for you. Your local congressional office,
listed in the phone book,is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the
bill to legal experts. Simply ask them to do so, and to consider supporting
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act.
If you do get feedback, negative or positive, from your congressional
office, please forward it to: David Anderman
3136 E. Yorba Linda Blvd., Apt G-14, Fullerton, CA 92631,
or via E-Mail to: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org.
Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society.
Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support
the Back to the Moon bill. For the address and telephone number of the nearest
chapter to you, please send E-mail, or check the latest issue of Ad Astra, in
a library near you.
Finally, if you have requested, and not received, information about
the Back to the Moon bill, please re-send your request. The database for the
bill was recently corrupted, and some information was lost. The authors of the
bill thank you for your patience.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From DavidAndermanofa123fidonetorg
Subject LRDPA news
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 28
Many of you at this point have seen a copy of the
Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act by now This bill also known as the Back to
the Moon bill would authorize the US
government to purchase lunar science data from private
and nonprofit vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding with an
aggregate cap on bid awards of 65 million
If you have a copy of the bill and cant or dont want to go through
all of the legalese contained in all Federal legislationdont both you have
a free resource to evaluate the bill for you Your local congressional office
listed in the phone bookis staffed by people who can forward a copy of the
bill to legal experts Simply ask them to do so and to consider supporting
the Lunar Resources Data Purchase Act
If you do get feedback negative or positive from your congressional
office please forward it to David Anderman
3136 E Yorba Linda Blvd Apt G14 Fullerton CA 92631
or via EMail to DavidAndermanofa123fidonetorg
Another resource is your local chapter of the National Space Society
Members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support
the Back to the Moon bill For the address and telephone number of the nearest
chapter to you please send Email or check the latest issue of Ad Astra in
a library near you
Finally if you have requested and not received information about
the Back to the Moon bill please resend your request The database for the
bill was recently corrupted and some information was lost The authors of the
bill thank you for your patience
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 6
>There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center that might answer
>your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow
>up I can dig that out for you.
Keesler, Loftus, Potter, Stansbery, Kubriek....?
after prepro From wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math Comp Sci
Lines 6
There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center that might answer
your question I do not have his name right now but if you follow
up I can dig that out for you
Keesler Loftus Potter Stansbery Kubriek
preprocess doc From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 8
You forget that Apollo was a Government program and had to start
relatively from scratch. Some people at NASA think that this could work.
One of them replied to me personally after I posted this original message
several days ago. I have heard Jerry Pournelle suggest this idea before.
--
gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
after prepro From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 8
You forget that Apollo was a Government program and had to start
relatively from scratch Some people at NASA think that this could work
One of them replied to me personally after I posted this original message
several days ago I have heard Jerry Pournelle suggest this idea before
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 4
I'm sold! Where do I sign up?
Brian /-|-\ The next book: "Charles Manson: Lord, Lunatic, or Liar"
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 4
Im sold Where do I sign up
Brian \ The next book Charles Manson Lord Lunatic or Liar
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 14
In article <1qlf7gINN8sn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith
Allan Schneider) wrote:
> Which type of morality are you talking about? In a natural sense, it
> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
> adversely affect your own, I guess).
Hehehe, so you say, but this objective morality somehere tells you
that this is not the case, and you don't know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems...
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Objective morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith
Allan Schneider wrote
Which type of morality are you talking about In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
Hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you
that this is not the case and you dont know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: maverick@wpi.WPI.EDU (T. Giaquinto)
Subject: General Information Request
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu
I am looking for any information about the space program.
This includes NASA, the shuttles, history, anything! I would like to
know if anyone could suggest books, periodicals, even ftp sites for a
novice who is interested in the space program.
Todd Giaquinto
maverick@wpi.WPI.EDU
after prepro From maverickwpiWPIEDU T Giaquinto
Subject General Information Request
Organization Worcester Polytechnic Institute Worcester MA 016092280
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost wpiwpiedu
I am looking for any information about the space program
This includes NASA the shuttles history anything I would like to
know if anyone could suggest books periodicals even ftp sites for a
novice who is interested in the space program
Todd Giaquinto
maverickwpiWPIEDU
preprocess doc From: tkelso@afit.af.mil (TS Kelso)
Subject: Two-Line Orbital Element Set: Space Shuttle
Keywords: Space Shuttle, Orbital Elements, Keplerian
Nntp-Posting-Host: scgraph.afit.af.mil
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines: 21
The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when
possible). Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using
8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.
Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil
(129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space.
STS 56
1 22621U 93 23 A 93105.58333333 .00090711 00000-0 25599-3 0 249
2 22621 57.0029 144.8669 0004136 304.2989 134.3206 15.92851555 1179
1993 023B
1 22623U 93 23 B 93103.37312705 .00041032 00000-0 11888-3 0 86
2 22623 57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650 66.5967 15.92653917 803
--
Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelso@afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology
after prepro From tkelsoafitafmil TS Kelso
Subject TwoLine Orbital Element Set Space Shuttle
Keywords Space Shuttle Orbital Elements Keplerian
NntpPostingHost scgraphafitafmil
Organization Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines 21
The most current orbital elements from the NORAD twoline element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS 513 4270674 and are updated daily when
possible Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system As a service to the satellite user community the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 2400 4800 or 9600 bps using
8 data bits 1 stop bit no parity
Element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archiveafitafmil
12992166 in the directory pubspace
STS 56
1 22621U 93 23 A 9310558333333 00090711 000000 255993 0 249
2 22621 570029 1448669 0004136 3042989 1343206 1592851555 1179
1993 023B
1 22623U 93 23 B 9310337312705 00041032 000000 118883 0 86
2 22623 570000 1551150 0004422 2934650 665967 1592653917 803
Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelsoafitafmil Air Force Institute of Technology
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Fred and Tom, ad naseum
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 189
>>Nick sez;
I'm not very impressed by the old so-called "prospecting" work from
LPI, it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on
the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there. [...]
>>Fred replies;
Translation: It doesn't support the Nick Szabo Vision of the Future
to Which You MUST Subscribe...
>Tom sez;
Fred, we're all supporting what each of us thinks should be done, to some
degree. If you have a problem with what Nick thinks should be done,
address it, instead of just complaining about his doing so.
>Fred again;
You really don't get what the 'complaints' are about, do you?
[not incredibly clear explanation of complaints...something between
feelings regarding Nick's method, and judgments about his meaning]
T
>>Maybe I'd get it if you said what the complaints are about, rather than
>>doing the same things that you mean to complain about. When you trash
>>people, how am I supposed to read that as 'trashing people is bad'?
F
>Gee, funny that you get it now, then? Deliberate obtuseness, perhaps?
*** Fred's issue #1; Nick's alleged trashing of others ***
I only got it when you stopped trashing, and made your point patently,
instead of 'allegorically'. That was my point all along, Fred.
>>>>Not only
>>>>do you do the same thing on the net (honestly reporting your ideas
>>>>on matters of policy and projects in space), but your response was just
>>>>baiting, not even part of a debate.
>>>I have yet to see Nick enter into anything remotely resembling "a
>>>debate". I see him flame anyone or anything who disagrees with The
>>>One True Szabo Plan; I see him attacking people, calling them "lazy
>>>bastard" because they had the temerity to disagree with the Almight
>>>Nick; I see him questioning peoples ethics, again because they had the
>>>temerity to disagree with Lord God Szabo. But debate? BWAAaaahhhaaaa.
>>I'm glad you can laugh, since your ratio of debate/insult is about the same.
>Not even close, Tommy, and generally only when I'm dealing with
>someone like Nick.
I see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations, not
least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is
and is not debate. Suffice to say that I disagree with you on that last
point. Why don't you take a poll, Fred, if you want some psuedo-objective
point-of-view?
And, as usual, you defend your insults with "he started it." "Yeah, I
took some of his research and called it my own, but he started it." "So
what if I stole his car, he stole my lawnmower first." Besides that, I
think it's still open to interpretation whether Nick actually did start it.
So your defense, besides being lame, and contradicting the first part of
the sentence in which it occurs, may not even apply anyway.
Your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool: "I
never borrowed it, I already gave it back, and it was broken when you
gave it to me." Make up yer mind, Fred!
>>>>I'm not convinced that people are necessary in all parts of every space-
>>>>based process, and your response doesn't tell me a thing about the
>>>>reasons why you think they should be, except to impune the motives of
>>>>the person with a divergent opinion.
>>>Who said I think they should be, Tommy? Show me a note where I said
>>>that and I'll eat this terminal. ****See below, Fred****
>>Fred, I cocluded that you did, since you took issue with it. The fact
>>that my conclusion was incorrect, i.e. that you were taking issue with
>>something different, is evidence that your communication style is
>>confusing.
>Or evidence that your reading and comprehension style are inadequate.
First, I try to address what I think you meant, for which I am rewarded
with a denial of sorts, and a smart remark. Then, I point out that I am
not clear what you did mean, rather than risking your childish ire, wrongly
interpreting you a second time, and I'm stupid for it. I just can't win,
can I, Fred? You've got a great point here somewhere, it's just that
between stupid people that you must insult, and your jealous guarding of
your valuable opinions, you never actually get around to making it.
>Please quote the 'it' I took issue with. I believe you will see (if
>you look) that what I was and am taking issue with is Mr Szabo's idea
>that the manned program should be scrapped until such time as his
>toaster-based infrastructure is finished. All Hail the Szabo Plan!
*** Fred issue #2; Nick's alleged meaning ***
Too bad the plan only exists in your mind, instead of Nick's, or you
would have a really good point. Instead you have provided a good reason
to ignore your insults, since they are based on incorrect interpretations
that you have made about others. Forgive me for giving your insults more
meaning than they ever should have had.
My reading of what Nick actually said is that "people aren't required in
all parts of all space processes", so your taking issue with his opinions
regarding people in the space program, I read as "People are required in
all parts of all space processes." So, help me out, here, Fred, since I'm
so patently stupid. Did you read Nick wrong? Or are you going to eat
your terminal now? If the latter, I sure hope it's one of those Cheeto and
string models that all the computer mags have been raving about :-)
The point is, _I_ am not stupid because of _your_ incorrect assumption. I'd
only be stupid if I insulted you for having made it. But, alas, that's your
job, Fred.
And, finally, your style is confusing, since you tried to make two points,
simultaneously, with an allegory/insult. Sadly, one point addressed a 'plan'
that only existed in your mind, and the other took issue with behaviors that
you do as much as anyone.
>More deliberate lack of understanding, Tommy?
No, no, I finally got it. You don't like the plan that Nick's posts made
you imagine. And you don't like Nick's obnoxious behavior, even though
it's no worse than your own. Thanks for taking the time with someone as
dense as myself.
>>>>If you have a problem with Nick's delivery, address that. The way you
>>>>bait, you're perpetuating the lack of discourse that you complain of.
>>>No, Tommy, the 'bait' is that which elicits the response. *NICK*
>>>'baits'; I just flame him for being an obnoxious fool.
>>I don't really care who started it. I read this list to get information
>>and other's views on the issues to which it was dedicated, not to be
>>your Mom (He started it! No, he did!) or to hear about why Nick is a very
>>bad guy. If you think flaming is bad, stop flaming, or at least get to
>>the point in the first post, instead of explaining yourself all the time.
>That's nice, Tommy. When you pay me to post to the net you can
>complain about not getting your money's worth. Perhaps if you weren't
>(deliberately?) too thick to get the point the first time I wouldn't
>have to waste time "explaining [myself] all the time"?
Of course, Socrates. How could it be otherwise?
>I think it's neat how all this criticism from you started after your
>'fatherly' admonitions to me about how such things should be handled
>outside Usenet were somewhat rebuffed. Being a little hypocritical,
>Tommy (to go with the immaturity)? Or is this just the pique of a
>net.ghod wannabe who got turned down by someone he *thought* was new
>(and hence could be 'instructed' -- Tommy, I saw you come on the net).
Who cares who came on the net first? If you do, consider that you saw
me come on after a brief haitus, before which I was on for about 2 years.
If you had seen me on the net first, you'd remember when Nick and I went
down exactly the same road regarding rude, unneccesary behavior. It's
just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior that's
no worse than your own.
Let's see here, my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical,
while your flames against people you decide are flamers isn't, and my
complaints about your name-calling are immature, while your name-calling
isn't. Yeah, right. Maybe if you called me some more names, I might
see it better, Fred.
"Net.ghod wannabe"? Naturally, Fred, you've correctly interpreted my
motivations, when yours are impossible to judge from your actions (as
your insulting of people that try, proves). I didn't really care about
people that fill the net with personal garbage, what I really wanted was to
impress everyone. I only put my complaints with your behavior on private
mail, not because it belongs there, but because I thought you were such a
jerk that you'd bring it back to the Net, playing right into my hands.
Alas, I had no idea what an intellectual master you were, turning tables and
bringing the history of these posts to the net, for the noble and valuable
purpose of embarassing me. Whether I should feel stupid because I tried
to make suggestions to such a superior intellect, or becuase I tried to
communicate like an adult with a self-righteous ass, still isn't clear.
Well, Fred, you exposed me. Now I'll never be able to get a(nother) job
with NASA, since they all know that I'm stupider than Fred McCall. Well,
I just hope you're happy. Please leave me alone, now. I just don't
have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me. Maybe Nick
or Pat can approach your high standards, but I'm dropping it now.
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Fred and Tom ad naseum
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 189
Nick sez
Im not very impressed by the old socalled prospecting work from
LPI it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on
the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there []
Fred replies
Translation It doesnt support the Nick Szabo Vision of the Future
to Which You MUST Subscribe
Tom sez
Fred were all supporting what each of us thinks should be done to some
degree If you have a problem with what Nick thinks should be done
address it instead of just complaining about his doing so
Fred again
You really dont get what the complaints are about do you
[not incredibly clear explanation of complaintssomething between
feelings regarding Nicks method and judgments about his meaning]
T
Maybe Id get it if you said what the complaints are about rather than
doing the same things that you mean to complain about When you trash
people how am I supposed to read that as trashing people is bad
F
Gee funny that you get it now then Deliberate obtuseness perhaps
Freds issue 1 Nicks alleged trashing of others
I only got it when you stopped trashing and made your point patently
instead of allegorically That was my point all along Fred
Not only
do you do the same thing on the net honestly reporting your ideas
on matters of policy and projects in space but your response was just
baiting not even part of a debate
I have yet to see Nick enter into anything remotely resembling a
debate I see him flame anyone or anything who disagrees with The
One True Szabo Plan I see him attacking people calling them lazy
bastard because they had the temerity to disagree with the Almight
Nick I see him questioning peoples ethics again because they had the
temerity to disagree with Lord God Szabo But debate BWAAaaahhhaaaa
Im glad you can laugh since your ratio of debateinsult is about the same
Not even close Tommy and generally only when Im dealing with
someone like Nick
I see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations not
least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is
and is not debate Suffice to say that I disagree with you on that last
point Why dont you take a poll Fred if you want some psuedoobjective
pointofview
And as usual you defend your insults with he started it Yeah I
took some of his research and called it my own but he started it So
what if I stole his car he stole my lawnmower first Besides that I
think its still open to interpretation whether Nick actually did start it
So your defense besides being lame and contradicting the first part of
the sentence in which it occurs may not even apply anyway
Your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool I
never borrowed it I already gave it back and it was broken when you
gave it to me Make up yer mind Fred
Im not convinced that people are necessary in all parts of every space
based process and your response doesnt tell me a thing about the
reasons why you think they should be except to impune the motives of
the person with a divergent opinion
Who said I think they should be Tommy Show me a note where I said
that and Ill eat this terminal See below Fred
Fred I cocluded that you did since you took issue with it The fact
that my conclusion was incorrect ie that you were taking issue with
something different is evidence that your communication style is
confusing
Or evidence that your reading and comprehension style are inadequate
First I try to address what I think you meant for which I am rewarded
with a denial of sorts and a smart remark Then I point out that I am
not clear what you did mean rather than risking your childish ire wrongly
interpreting you a second time and Im stupid for it I just cant win
can I Fred Youve got a great point here somewhere its just that
between stupid people that you must insult and your jealous guarding of
your valuable opinions you never actually get around to making it
Please quote the it I took issue with I believe you will see if
you look that what I was and am taking issue with is Mr Szabos idea
that the manned program should be scrapped until such time as his
toasterbased infrastructure is finished All Hail the Szabo Plan
Fred issue 2 Nicks alleged meaning
Too bad the plan only exists in your mind instead of Nicks or you
would have a really good point Instead you have provided a good reason
to ignore your insults since they are based on incorrect interpretations
that you have made about others Forgive me for giving your insults more
meaning than they ever should have had
My reading of what Nick actually said is that people arent required in
all parts of all space processes so your taking issue with his opinions
regarding people in the space program I read as People are required in
all parts of all space processes So help me out here Fred since Im
so patently stupid Did you read Nick wrong Or are you going to eat
your terminal now If the latter I sure hope its one of those Cheeto and
string models that all the computer mags have been raving about
The point is _I_ am not stupid because of _your_ incorrect assumption Id
only be stupid if I insulted you for having made it But alas thats your
job Fred
And finally your style is confusing since you tried to make two points
simultaneously with an allegoryinsult Sadly one point addressed a plan
that only existed in your mind and the other took issue with behaviors that
you do as much as anyone
More deliberate lack of understanding Tommy
No no I finally got it You dont like the plan that Nicks posts made
you imagine And you dont like Nicks obnoxious behavior even though
its no worse than your own Thanks for taking the time with someone as
dense as myself
If you have a problem with Nicks delivery address that The way you
bait youre perpetuating the lack of discourse that you complain of
No Tommy the bait is that which elicits the response NICK
baits I just flame him for being an obnoxious fool
I dont really care who started it I read this list to get information
and others views on the issues to which it was dedicated not to be
your Mom He started it No he did or to hear about why Nick is a very
bad guy If you think flaming is bad stop flaming or at least get to
the point in the first post instead of explaining yourself all the time
Thats nice Tommy When you pay me to post to the net you can
complain about not getting your moneys worth Perhaps if you werent
deliberately too thick to get the point the first time I wouldnt
have to waste time explaining [myself] all the time
Of course Socrates How could it be otherwise
I think its neat how all this criticism from you started after your
fatherly admonitions to me about how such things should be handled
outside Usenet were somewhat rebuffed Being a little hypocritical
Tommy to go with the immaturity Or is this just the pique of a
netghod wannabe who got turned down by someone he thought was new
and hence could be instructed Tommy I saw you come on the net
Who cares who came on the net first If you do consider that you saw
me come on after a brief haitus before which I was on for about 2 years
If you had seen me on the net first youd remember when Nick and I went
down exactly the same road regarding rude unneccesary behavior Its
just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior thats
no worse than your own
Lets see here my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical
while your flames against people you decide are flamers isnt and my
complaints about your namecalling are immature while your namecalling
isnt Yeah right Maybe if you called me some more names I might
see it better Fred
Netghod wannabe Naturally Fred youve correctly interpreted my
motivations when yours are impossible to judge from your actions as
your insulting of people that try proves I didnt really care about
people that fill the net with personal garbage what I really wanted was to
impress everyone I only put my complaints with your behavior on private
mail not because it belongs there but because I thought you were such a
jerk that youd bring it back to the Net playing right into my hands
Alas I had no idea what an intellectual master you were turning tables and
bringing the history of these posts to the net for the noble and valuable
purpose of embarassing me Whether I should feel stupid because I tried
to make suggestions to such a superior intellect or becuase I tried to
communicate like an adult with a selfrighteous ass still isnt clear
Well Fred you exposed me Now Ill never be able to get another job
with NASA since they all know that Im stupider than Fred McCall Well
I just hope youre happy Please leave me alone now I just dont
have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me Maybe Nick
or Pat can approach your high standards but Im dropping it now
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: Re: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 43
In article <1993Apr5.124216.4374@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
>
>I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
>if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population.
Probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in
emphasis. Weekends might not be so inviolate (more common to work 7 days
a week in a business), and instead of American Atheists, we would have
similar, religious organizations. A persons religious belief seems more
as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions.
Of course, people would have to come up with more fascinating
rationalizations for their actions, but that could be fun to watch...
It seems to me, that for most people, religion in America doesn't matter
that much. You have extreemists on both ends, but a large majority don't
make too much of an issue about it as long as you don't. Now, admittedly,
I have never had to suffer the "Bible Belt", but I am just north of it
and see the fringes, and the reasonable people in most things tend to be
reasonable in religion as well.
>Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
>higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking. The
>typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
>same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
>other, qualitatively. But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
>somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
>than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
>expresses its own selfishness.
>
I don't bother according a higher value to my thinking, or just about
anybodys thinking. I don't want to fall in that trap. Because if you
do start that, then you are then to decide which is better, says whom,
why, is there a best, and also what to do about those who have inferior
modes of thinking. IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.)
I'll argue it over a soda, but not over much more.
Just my $.12 (What inflation has done...)
M^2
after prepro From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization University of Wisconsin Madison Computer Sciences Dept
Lines 43
In article 1993Apr51242164374macccmacalstredu acoopermacccmacalstredu writes
I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population
Probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in
emphasis Weekends might not be so inviolate more common to work 7 days
a week in a business and instead of American Atheists we would have
similar religious organizations A persons religious belief seems more
as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions
Of course people would have to come up with more fascinating
rationalizations for their actions but that could be fun to watch
It seems to me that for most people religion in America doesnt matter
that much You have extreemists on both ends but a large majority dont
make too much of an issue about it as long as you dont Now admittedly
I have never had to suffer the Bible Belt but I am just north of it
and see the fringes and the reasonable people in most things tend to be
reasonable in religion as well
Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
other qualitatively But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
expresses its own selfishness
I dont bother according a higher value to my thinking or just about
anybodys thinking I dont want to fall in that trap Because if you
do start that then you are then to decide which is better says whom
why is there a best and also what to do about those who have inferior
modes of thinking IDIC Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Ill argue it over a soda but not over much more
Just my 12 What inflation has done
M^2
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
In-Reply-To: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM's message of Fri, 23 Apr 93 09: 06:09 BST
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
<1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> <C5w5zJ.HHq@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
<19930423.010821.639@almaden.ibm.com>
Lines: 14
>>>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:06:09 BST, nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls) said:
GS> How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
GS> able to accept donations to keep craft operational.
I seem to remember NASA considering this for some of the Apollo
equipment left on the moon, but that they decided against it.
Or maybe not...
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
InReplyTo nichovnetIBMCOMs message of Fri 23 Apr 93 09 0609 BST
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet
19930423010821639almadenibmcom
Lines 14
On Fri 23 Apr 93 090609 BST nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls said
GS How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
GS able to accept donations to keep craft operational
I seem to remember NASA considering this for some of the Apollo
equipment left on the moon but that they decided against it
Or maybe not
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Billboard/Station/Space Dock?
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Seems that the Mile-Long Billboard and any other inflateble space
object/station or what ever have the same problems. (other than being a little
bit different than the "normal" space ideas, such as trusses and shuttles)
But also dag and such.. Why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to
the same topic?
I personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space. But problem. How do you
service it? fly a shuttle/DC-1 to near it and then dismount and "fly" to it?
Or what?? or havign a special docking section for shuttle/DC-1 docking?
Also what if the billboard springs a leak? Self sealing and such??
Just thinking (okay rambling)..
Also why must the now inflated billboard, not be covered in the inside by a
harder substance (such as a polymer or other agent) and then the now "hard"
billboard would be a now giant docking structure/space dock/station??
Or am I missing something here.. (probably am!?)
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject BillboardStationSpace Dock
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Seems that the MileLong Billboard and any other inflateble space
objectstation or what ever have the same problems other than being a little
bit different than the normal space ideas such as trusses and shuttles
But also dag and such Why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to
the same topic
I personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space But problem How do you
service it fly a shuttleDC1 to near it and then dismount and fly to it
Or what or havign a special docking section for shuttleDC1 docking
Also what if the billboard springs a leak Self sealing and such
Just thinking okay rambling
Also why must the now inflated billboard not be covered in the inside by a
harder substance such as a polymer or other agent and then the now hard
billboard would be a now giant docking structurespace dockstation
Or am I missing something here probably am
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: robink@hparc0.aus.hp.com (Robin Kenny)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: HP Australasian Response Centre (Melbourne)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.5]
Lines: 26
David Fuzzy Wells (wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
: really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt (or even better, a
: Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.
: <BOOM!> Whooooooooshhhhhh...... <sputter, sputter>
: <okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just a thought... (let's pretend it IS INFLATED and PRESSURIZED) wouldn't
there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture?
If the metalization is behind a clear sandwich (ie. insulated) then the
deflating balloon would generate electrical interference - "noise"
By the way, any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a "Bugs
Bunny" hole through the wall, highly unlikely to "BOOM", and the fabric
would almost certainly be ripstop.
Regards, Robin Kenny - a private and personal opinion, not in any way
endorsed, authorised or known by my employers.
______________________________________________________________________
What the heck would I know about Space? I'm stuck at the
bottom of this huge gravity well!
after prepro From robinkhparc0aushpcom Robin Kenny
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization HP Australasian Response Centre Melbourne
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL85]
Lines 26
David Fuzzy Wells wdwellsnyxcsduedu wrote
I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a
Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec
Whooooooooshhhhhh
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just a thought lets pretend it IS INFLATED and PRESSURIZED wouldnt
there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture
If the metalization is behind a clear sandwich ie insulated then the
deflating balloon would generate electrical interference noise
By the way any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a Bugs
Bunny hole through the wall highly unlikely to BOOM and the fabric
would almost certainly be ripstop
Regards Robin Kenny a private and personal opinion not in any way
endorsed authorised or known by my employers
______________________________________________________________________
What the heck would I know about Space Im stuck at the
bottom of this huge gravity well
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Galileo Update - 04/22/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 84
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from Neal Ausman, Galileo Mission Director
GALILEO
MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
POST-LAUNCH
April 16 - 22, 1993
SPACECRAFT
1. On April 19, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV), Dust Detector (DDS), and Magnetometer
(MAG) instruments. Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly.
2. On April 19, a Command Detector Unit Signal-to-Noise Ratio (CDUSNR) test
and a Radio Frequency Subsystem Automatic Gain Control (RFSAGC) test were
performed using the LGA-1 (Low Gain Antenna #1) over DSS-63 (Madrid 70 meter
antenna) and DSS-61 (Madrid 34 meter antenna), respectively. Data analysis
is in process. These tests are periodically performed to provide detailed
information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity.
3. On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
4. On April 21, the first of two suppressed carrier/DSN (Deep Space Network)
advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over DSS-14 (Goldstone
70 meter antenna). The spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees
to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings.
5. The AC bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change
(greater than 25 DN) throughout this period but the DC bus imbalance
measurement has. The AC measurement reads 20 DN (4.5 volts). The DC
measurement has ranged from 43 DN (4.6 volts) to 138 DN (16.2 volts) and
currently reads 138 DN (16.2 volts). These measurements are consistent with
the model developed by the AC/DC special anomaly team.
6. The Spacecraft status as of April 22, 1993, is as follows:
a) System Power Margin - 68 watts
b) Spin Configuration - Dual-Spin
c) Spin Rate/Sensor - 3.15rpm/Star Scanner
d) Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 21 degrees
off-sun (lagging) and 5 degrees off-earth (leading)
e) Downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/LGA-1
f) General Thermal Control - all temperatures within
acceptable range
g) RPM Tank Pressures - all within acceptable range
h) Orbiter Science- Instruments powered on are the PWS,
EUV, UVS, EPD, MAG, HIC, and DDS
i) Probe/RRH - powered off, temperatures within
acceptable range
j) CMD Loss Timer Setting - 264 hours
Time To Initiation - 184 hours
TRAJECTORY
As of noon Thursday, April 22, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows:
Distance from Earth 169,747,800 km (1.14 AU)
Distance from Sun 286,967,900 km (1.92 AU)
Heliocentric Speed 91,200 km per hour
Distance from Jupiter 532,735,900 km
Round Trip Light Time 18 minutes, 58 seconds
SPECIAL TOPIC
1. As of April 22, 1993, a total of 70185 real-time commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch. Of these, 65077 were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the real-time command process.
In the past week, one real time command was transmitted: one was initiated in
the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command
process. The only command activity was a command to reset the command loss
timer.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Galileo Update 042293
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 84
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from Neal Ausman Galileo Mission Director
GALILEO
MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
POSTLAUNCH
April 16 22 1993
SPACECRAFT
1 On April 19 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV Dust Detector DDS and Magnetometer
MAG instruments Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly
2 On April 19 a Command Detector Unit SignaltoNoise Ratio CDUSNR test
and a Radio Frequency Subsystem Automatic Gain Control RFSAGC test were
performed using the LGA1 Low Gain Antenna 1 over DSS63 Madrid 70 meter
antenna and DSS61 Madrid 34 meter antenna respectively Data analysis
is in process These tests are periodically performed to provide detailed
information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity
3 On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
4 On April 21 the first of two suppressed carrierDSN Deep Space Network
advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over DSS14 Goldstone
70 meter antenna The spacecraft modulation index was varied from 43 degrees
to 90 degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings
5 The AC bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change
greater than 25 DN throughout this period but the DC bus imbalance
measurement has The AC measurement reads 20 DN 45 volts The DC
measurement has ranged from 43 DN 46 volts to 138 DN 162 volts and
currently reads 138 DN 162 volts These measurements are consistent with
the model developed by the ACDC special anomaly team
6 The Spacecraft status as of April 22 1993 is as follows
a System Power Margin 68 watts
b Spin Configuration DualSpin
c Spin RateSensor 315rpmStar Scanner
d Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 21 degrees
offsun lagging and 5 degrees offearth leading
e Downlink telemetry rateantenna 40bpscodedLGA1
f General Thermal Control all temperatures within
acceptable range
g RPM Tank Pressures all within acceptable range
h Orbiter Science Instruments powered on are the PWS
EUV UVS EPD MAG HIC and DDS
i ProbeRRH powered off temperatures within
acceptable range
j CMD Loss Timer Setting 264 hours
Time To Initiation 184 hours
TRAJECTORY
As of noon Thursday April 22 1993 the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows
Distance from Earth 169747800 km 114 AU
Distance from Sun 286967900 km 192 AU
Heliocentric Speed 91200 km per hour
Distance from Jupiter 532735900 km
Round Trip Light Time 18 minutes 58 seconds
SPECIAL TOPIC
1 As of April 22 1993 a total of 70185 realtime commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch Of these 65077 were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the realtime command process
In the past week one real time command was transmitted one was initiated in
the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command
process The only command activity was a command to reset the command loss
timer
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Portable Small Ground Station?dir
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.185700.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <C4zGAM.2nJ@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr2.214705.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>How difficult would it be to set up your own ground station?
>
> Ground station for *what*? At one extreme, some of the amateur-radio
> satellites have sometimes been reachable with hand-held radios. At the
> other, nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on
> Galileo. Please be more specific.
> --
> All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
> - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
SPECIFIC:
Basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do.. Monitor, and
control if need be the Shuttle...
Such as the one in Australia and such....
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Portable Small Ground Stationdir
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51857001
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr22147051auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
How difficult would it be to set up your own ground station
Ground station for what At one extreme some of the amateurradio
satellites have sometimes been reachable with handheld radios At the
other nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on
Galileo Please be more specific
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
SPECIFIC
Basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do Monitor and
control if need be the Shuttle
Such as the one in Australia and such
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 23
pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
: You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
: can be blamed solely on Mary.
:
: So, she's married to Joseph. She gets knocked up. What do you think
: ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around? So Mary comes up
: with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant.
:
Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what
happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.
Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?
after prepro From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 23
pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
You know it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary
So shes married to Joseph She gets knocked up What do you think
ol Joe will do if he finds shes been getting around So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant
Nice attempt Chris verrry close
You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what
happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it I
have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus
Dave Buckminster Fuller
How is that one o keeper of the nicknames
preprocess doc From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Re: Clementine mission name
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 27
Mark Prado
>Please go just one step further:
>How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining?
Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows:
"In a cavern, in a canyon,
Excavating for a mine,
Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
And his daughter, CLEMENTINE"
Chorus:
"Oh my darling, Oh my darling,
Oh my darling Clementine.
You are lost and gone forever,
Oh my darling Clementine."
I've also had it explained (but not confirmed from a reliable data
source) that CLEMENTINE is an acronym. Something like Combined
Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial
Intercept Near Earth. Personally, I think that acronym was made up
to fit the name (if it really is an acronym).
------------------------------------------------------------------
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Re Clementine mission name
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 27
Mark Prado
Please go just one step further
How has the word Clementine been associated with mining
Old pioneer song from the 1850s or so goes as follows
In a cavern in a canyon
Excavating for a mine
Dwelt a miner fortyniner
And his daughter CLEMENTINE
Chorus
Oh my darling Oh my darling
Oh my darling Clementine
You are lost and gone forever
Oh my darling Clementine
Ive also had it explained but not confirmed from a reliable data
source that CLEMENTINE is an acronym Something like Combined
Lunar Elemental Mapper Experiment on Extended Non Terrestrial
Intercept Near Earth Personally I think that acronym was made up
to fit the name if it really is an acronym
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: First Spacewalk
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 14
In article <C5suMG.2rF.1@cs.cmu.edu> flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:
>At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
>(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
>
>Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
>
>Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?
This claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into
the footage of the actual spacewalk.
Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL
after prepro From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re First Spacewalk
Organization Motorola
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 14
In article flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
Alexei Leonov was a staged fake
Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged
Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination
This claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into
the footage of the actual spacewalk
Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL
preprocess doc From: wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Subject: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 22
And one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project (Dr. Ron
Humble, Univ. Colorado at Colorado Springs).
I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt (or even better, a
Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.
<BOOM!> Whooooooooshhhhhh...... <sputter, sputter>
<okay, PRETEND it would make a sound!>
I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics.
Fuzzy.
===============================================================================
_ __/| | Lt. David "Fuzzy" Wells | "I want peace on earth,
\'o.O' | HQ AFSPACECOM/CNA | goodwill toward men."
=(___)= | "We do debris" |"We're the government. We don't do that
U ...ack!| wdwells@esprit.uccs.edu | that sort of thing." -SNEAKERS
===============================================================================
after prepro From wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells
Subject Boom Whoosh
Organization University of Denver Dept of Math Comp Sci
Lines 22
And one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project Dr Ron
Humble Univ Colorado at Colorado Springs
I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a
Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec
Whooooooooshhhhhh
I hear that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics
Fuzzy
_ __ Lt David Fuzzy Wells I want peace on earth
\oO HQ AFSPACECOMCNA goodwill toward men
___ We do debris Were the government We dont do that
U ack wdwellsesprituccsedu that sort of thing SNEAKERS
preprocess doc From: bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines: 138
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: thnext.mit.edu
In article <16BA8C4AC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>
I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
> In article <1pq47tINN8lp@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
> bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton) writes:
>
> (Deletion)
> >
> >I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
> >does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement
> >that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't
> >know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
> >(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than
> >saying I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the
> >position, even after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires
> >faith.
> >
>
> No it in the way it is usually used. In my view, you are saying here
> that driving a car requires faith that the car drives.
>
I'm not saying this at all - it requires no faith on my part to
say the car drives because I've seen it drive - I've done more
than at in fact - I've actually driven it. (now what does require
some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation
of what's out there....) But there is NO evidence - pro or con -
for the existence or non-existence of God (see what I have to
say below on this).
> For me it is a conclusion, and I have no more faith in it than I
> have in the premises and the argument used.
>
Sorry if I remain skeptical - I don't believe it's entirely a
conclusion. That you have seen no evidence that there IS a God
is correct - neither have I. But lack of evidence for the existence
of something is in NO WAY evidence for the non-existence of something
(the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they
disprove evolution the establish creation). You (personally) have never
seen a neutrino before, but they exist. The "pink unicorn" analogy breaks
down and is rather naive. I have a scientific theory that explains the
appearance of animal life - evolution. When I draw the conclusion that
"pink unicorns" don't exist because I haven't seen them, this conclusion
has it's foundation in observation and theory. A "pink unicorn", if
it did exist, would be qualitatively similar to other known entities.
That is to say, since there is good evidence that all life on earth has
evolved from "more primitive" ancestors these pink unicorns would share
a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such. God, however,
has no such correspondence with anything (IMO). There is no physical
frame work of observation to draw ANY conclusions FROM.
> >But first let me say the following.
> >We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
> >"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
> >To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
> >being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
> >exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
> >to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
> >I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
> >being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
> >statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
> >in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
> >'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
> >I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
> >God".
> >
>
> No, that's a word game.
I disagree with you profoundly on this. I haven't defined God as
existence - in fact, I haven't defined God. But this might be
getting off the subject - although if you think it's relevant
we can come back to it.
>
> Further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is
> already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are
> implying more with it, in which case your definition and your argument
> so far are incomplete, making it a fallacy.
>
You are using wrong categories here - or perhaps you misunderstand
what I'm saying. I'm making no argument what so ever and offering no
definition so there is no fallacy. I'm not trying to convince you of
anything. *I* Believe - and that rests upon Faith. And it is inappropriate
to apply the category of logic in this realm (unless someone tells you
that they can logically prove God or that they have "evidence" or ...,
then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary).
BTW, an incomplete argument is not a fallacy - some things are not
EVEN wrong.
>
> (Deletion)
> >One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
> >that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
> >"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
> >you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
> >are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief.
> (Deletion)
>
> Where does that follow? Aren't observations based on the assumption
> that something exists?
>
I don't follow you here. Certainly one can make observations of
things that they didn't know existed. I still maintain that one
cannot use observation to infer that "God does not exist". Such
a positive assertion requires a leap.
> And wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
> "god is" is meaningful. If not, I would reject that concept anyway.
>
> So, where is your evidence for that "god is" is meaningful at some
> level?
Once again you seem to completely misunderstand me. I have no
EVIDENCE that "'god is' is meaningful" at ANY level. Maybe such
a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so
many people try to run their own private conception of God down
your throat. I, however, am not doing this. I am arguing one, and
only one, thing - that to make a positive assertion about something
for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against
requires a leap - it requires faith. I am, as you would say, a
"theist"; however, there is a form of atheism that I can respect -
but it must be founded upon honesty.
> Benedikt
--
bob singleton
bobs@thnext.mit.edu
after prepro From bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines 138
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost thnextmitedu
In article 16BA8C4ACI3150101dbstu1rztubsde
I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1pq47tINN8lpsenatorbedfellowMITEDU
bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton writes
Deletion
I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
does rest upon faith that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement
that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont
know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than
saying I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the
position even after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires
faith
No it in the way it is usually used In my view you are saying here
that driving a car requires faith that the car drives
Im not saying this at all it requires no faith on my part to
say the car drives because Ive seen it drive Ive done more
than at in fact Ive actually driven it now what does require
some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation
of whats out there But there is NO evidence pro or con
for the existence or nonexistence of God see what I have to
say below on this
For me it is a conclusion and I have no more faith in it than I
have in the premises and the argument used
Sorry if I remain skeptical I dont believe its entirely a
conclusion That you have seen no evidence that there IS a God
is correct neither have I But lack of evidence for the existence
of something is in NO WAY evidence for the nonexistence of something
the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they
disprove evolution the establish creation You personally have never
seen a neutrino before but they exist The pink unicorn analogy breaks
down and is rather naive I have a scientific theory that explains the
appearance of animal life evolution When I draw the conclusion that
pink unicorns dont exist because I havent seen them this conclusion
has its foundation in observation and theory A pink unicorn if
it did exist would be qualitatively similar to other known entities
That is to say since there is good evidence that all life on earth has
evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share
a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such God however
has no such correspondence with anything IMO There is no physical
frame work of observation to draw ANY conclusions FROM
But first let me say the following
We might have a language problem here in regards to faith and
existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
being God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
to debate the so called existence of God and that is not what
Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
statement but we obviously mean two different things by it However
in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
usual sense and this is the sense that I think you are using it
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
God
No thats a word game
I disagree with you profoundly on this I havent defined God as
existence in fact I havent defined God But this might be
getting off the subject although if you think its relevant
we can come back to it
Further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are
implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument
so far are incomplete making it a fallacy
You are using wrong categories here or perhaps you misunderstand
what Im saying Im making no argument what so ever and offering no
definition so there is no fallacy Im not trying to convince you of
anything I Believe and that rests upon Faith And it is inappropriate
to apply the category of logic in this realm unless someone tells you
that they can logically prove God or that they have evidence or
then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary
BTW an incomplete argument is not a fallacy some things are not
EVEN wrong
Deletion
One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
you refering to There are NO observations pro or con that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief
Deletion
Where does that follow Arent observations based on the assumption
that something exists
I dont follow you here Certainly one can make observations of
things that they didnt know existed I still maintain that one
cannot use observation to infer that God does not exist Such
a positive assertion requires a leap
And wouldnt you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
god is is meaningful If not I would reject that concept anyway
So where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some
level
Once again you seem to completely misunderstand me I have no
EVIDENCE that god is is meaningful at ANY level Maybe such
a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so
many people try to run their own private conception of God down
your throat I however am not doing this I am arguing one and
only one thing that to make a positive assertion about something
for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against
requires a leap it requires faith I am as you would say a
theist however there is a form of atheism that I can respect
but it must be founded upon honesty
Benedikt
bob singleton
bobsthnextmitedu
preprocess doc From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com
In article <65882@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
}>For several years I've periodically asked Charley Wingate to explain this
}>mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically
}>when he pops up every few months. His reluctance to explain indicates to me
}>that it's not so hot.
}
}I've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you
}might have caught on by now. And there is no "alternative", but the point
}is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either. The problems of metaphysical
}and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or I should say, humans cannot
}solve them.
If there is truly no alternative, then you have no basis whatsoever
for your claim. The usual line here, which you call "a prejudgment of
atheism", and dispute, is that reason is all we have. Here you admit
that you have no alternative, no possible basis for the claim that
there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in
religious knowledge, except possibly that reason conflicts with
"religious knowledge".
This sounds very much like "I can't provide a rational defense for my
belief, but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it
may be false". I hope it makes you happy, but your repeated and
unfounded assertions to this effect don't advance your cause.
--
Jim Perry perry@dsinc.com Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions. For a nominal fee, they can be yours.
after prepro From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom
In article 65882mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
For several years Ive periodically asked Charley Wingate to explain this
mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically
when he pops up every few months His reluctance to explain indicates to me
that its not so hot
Ive said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you
might have caught on by now And there is no alternative but the point
is rationality isnt an alternative either The problems of metaphysical
and religious knowledge are unsolvable or I should say humans cannot
solve them
If there is truly no alternative then you have no basis whatsoever
for your claim The usual line here which you call a prejudgment of
atheism and dispute is that reason is all we have Here you admit
that you have no alternative no possible basis for the claim that
there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in
religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with
religious knowledge
This sounds very much like I cant provide a rational defense for my
belief but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it
may be false I hope it makes you happy but your repeated and
unfounded assertions to this effect dont advance your cause
Jim Perry perrydsinccom Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions For a nominal fee they can be yours
preprocess doc From: schlegel@cwis.unomaha.edu (Mark Schlegel)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 86
timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:
> Atheism denies the existence of God. This is logically bankrupt --
>where is the proof of this nonexistence? It's a joke.
This is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism, i.e. the
belief that you can't deny anything that you can't prove doesn't exist.
This is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are
conceivable but not observed to exist, does this mean that we would have
to believe in all of them? According to the above poster, we must believe
in objects or beings that haven't been proved not to exist so why stop at
God? (there could be a huge number of beings identical to Ronald Reagan
except for trivial differences, say one is missing a finger, one has blond
hair,... and they all live on other planets so we can't see them) The
reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians
have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of God.
>Fine, but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of
>a God? Here again is a classic atheist fallacy.
How did they shoot themselves in the foot?
> Radical Muslims, the Crusades, the Inquisition are common examples that
>atheists like to bring up as marks against religion. How weak! Only fools can
>take that drivel seriously. How about the grand-daddy of all human atrocities,
>the Stalinist movement?
> Twenty eight MILLION people _killed_ under this leadership, which
>proudly featured atheism.
There is a big difference here, Stalin didn't say that he stood for a
particular moral position (i.e. against murder and terrorism, etc.) and
then did the opposite (like the religious movements), he was at least
an honest killer. (This is NOT a support of Stalin but an attack on this
viewpoint). Saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because
one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic, look at all the
russians that helped Stalin that weren't atheists - don't they contradict
your point? Besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant
to his murdering people, this is just the common assumption that atheists
can't value life as much as theists (which you didn't support).
> Agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable. Yet
>they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of God
>is unknowable. This in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is,
>though it's less arrogant and pompous.
Ah, and here's another point you didn't get out of the FAQ. An atheist
doesn't have to hold the positive view that god doesn't exist, he/she may
just have the non-existence of the positive belief. Here's the example:
Strong atheism - "I believe god does not exist" a positive belief
Weak atheism - "I don't believe in a god" a negative belief
these are NOT the same, some one that has never thought of the idea of
god in their whole life is technically an atheist, but not the kind that
you are calling unreasonable. Or let's look at it this way (in sets)
suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that I will represent
as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas
exist as real objects or not. So if S = santa, then E(S)= no is the person
not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa. But notice that
even E(S) = no is itself another idea! This means you have lots of cases:
christian : (A,E(A)=yes,B,E(B)=no, . . . G,E(G)=yes......) where G = god
atheist (strong) : (A,E(A). . . . .G,E(G)=no)
atheist (weak) : (A,.....E) i.e. no G at all in the set
agnostic : (A,.......G, E(G) = indeterminate, E', ....)
> Why are people so afraid to say "undecided"? It must just be another
>feature of human nature -- "undecided" is not a sexy, trendy, or glamorous
>word. It does not inspire much hate or conflict. It's not blasphemous.
>It's not political. In fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated.
Nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not
will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always
prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival
trait, evolution has drilled it in us to take positions, even false ones.
>Bake Timmons, III
M.S.
after prepro From schlegelcwisunomahaedu Mark Schlegel
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines 86
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
Atheism denies the existence of God This is logically bankrupt
where is the proof of this nonexistence Its a joke
This is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism ie the
belief that you cant deny anything that you cant prove doesnt exist
This is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are
conceivable but not observed to exist does this mean that we would have
to believe in all of them According to the above poster we must believe
in objects or beings that havent been proved not to exist so why stop at
God there could be a huge number of beings identical to Ronald Reagan
except for trivial differences say one is missing a finger one has blond
hair and they all live on other planets so we cant see them The
reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians
have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of God
Fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of
a God Here again is a classic atheist fallacy
How did they shoot themselves in the foot
Radical Muslims the Crusades the Inquisition are common examples that
atheists like to bring up as marks against religion How weak Only fools can
take that drivel seriously How about the granddaddy of all human atrocities
the Stalinist movement
Twenty eight MILLION people _killed_ under this leadership which
proudly featured atheism
There is a big difference here Stalin didnt say that he stood for a
particular moral position ie against murder and terrorism etc and
then did the opposite like the religious movements he was at least
an honest killer This is NOT a support of Stalin but an attack on this
viewpoint Saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because
one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic look at all the
russians that helped Stalin that werent atheists dont they contradict
your point Besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant
to his murdering people this is just the common assumption that atheists
cant value life as much as theists which you didnt support
Agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable Yet
they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of God
is unknowable This in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is
though its less arrogant and pompous
Ah and heres another point you didnt get out of the FAQ An atheist
doesnt have to hold the positive view that god doesnt exist heshe may
just have the nonexistence of the positive belief Heres the example
Strong atheism I believe god does not exist a positive belief
Weak atheism I dont believe in a god a negative belief
these are NOT the same some one that has never thought of the idea of
god in their whole life is technically an atheist but not the kind that
you are calling unreasonable Or lets look at it this way in sets
suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that I will represent
as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas
exist as real objects or not So if S santa then ES no is the person
not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa But notice that
even ES no is itself another idea This means you have lots of cases
christian AEAyesBEBno GEGyes where G god
atheist strong AEA GEGno
atheist weak AE ie no G at all in the set
agnostic AG EG indeterminate E
Why are people so afraid to say undecided It must just be another
feature of human nature undecided is not a sexy trendy or glamorous
word It does not inspire much hate or conflict Its not blasphemous
Its not political In fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated
Nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not
will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always
prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival
trait evolution has drilled it in us to take positions even false ones
Bake Timmons III
MS
preprocess doc From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
In-Reply-To: gene@theporch.raider.net's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 19:29:40 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 32
In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net> gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
year.
And with $1B on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment!
"Oh Dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of ACME's base and they
all died. How sad. Gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents."
"Quick Boss, the slime from YoyoDyne are back, and this time they've
got a tank! Man the guns!"
One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment.....
Greg.
(I'm kidding, BTW, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness
military procurement programs. And $1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition.)
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knox's 386 is slick. Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
Knox's box is very quick. Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)
after prepro From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
InReplyTo genetheporchraidernets message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 192940 GMT
NntpPostingHost leogw
Organization Burdett Buckeridge Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 32
In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
year
And with 1B on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment
Oh Dear my freighter just landed on the roof of ACMEs base and they
all died How sad Gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents
Quick Boss the slime from YoyoDyne are back and this time theyve
got a tank Man the guns
One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment
Greg
Im kidding BTW although the problem of winnertakesall prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour witness
military procurement programs And 1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition
Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knoxs 386 is slick Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
Knoxs box is very quick Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin
preprocess doc From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: Cosmos 2238
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 11
I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993-
018B) as possible. Both its purpose, launch date, location, in short,
EVERYTHING! Can you help?
-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).
(WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min
after prepro From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject Cosmos 2238
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 11
I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment 1993
018B as possible Both its purpose launch date location in short
EVERYTHING Can you help
Tony Ryan Astronomy Space new International magazine available from
Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress
WORLDS LARGEST ASTRO SOC per capita unless you know better 0033
Tel 0891881950 UKNIreland 1550111442 Eire Cost up to 48p per min
preprocess doc From: rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross Borden)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: ugl-gw.uvic.ca
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, BC, Canada
Lines: 33
In article <1qjs1j$306@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>
>
>In the old days, their used to be Arbitron stats' that analyzed
>the readership and posting volumes by group and user.
>
>They were available from UUNET. That's how you check the
>readership of Sci.space, not some stupid unscientific attempt
>to flood the newsgroup.
>
>I have abetter idea. WHy don't we all reply directly to the
>origanator of this post, and tell him we read sci.space ;-)
>
>
>pat
Sigh.
I try to make a little joke, I try to inject some humour here
and what happens? In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn:
"I say, that was a _joke_, son."
I thought that the bit about McElwaine, not to mention the two
smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING.
Sigh.
(And will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat)
*please* stop sending me email.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| I shot a man just to watch him die; | Ross Borden |
| I'm going to Disneyland! | rborden@ra.uvic.ca |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross Borden
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost uglgwuvicca
Organization University of Victoria Victoria BC Canada
Lines 33
In article 1qjs1j306accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In the old days their used to be Arbitron stats that analyzed
the readership and posting volumes by group and user
They were available from UUNET Thats how you check the
readership of Scispace not some stupid unscientific attempt
to flood the newsgroup
I have abetter idea WHy dont we all reply directly to the
origanator of this post and tell him we read scispace
pat
Sigh
I try to make a little joke I try to inject some humour here
and what happens In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn
I say that was a _joke_ son
I thought that the bit about McElwaine not to mention the two
smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING
Sigh
And will everyone who pats suggestion thanks bunches pat
please stop sending me email
I shot a man just to watch him die Ross Borden
Im going to Disneyland rbordenrauvicca
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <930404.111651.1K0.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr2.065230.18676@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
|> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|> >The "automobile system" kills non-driving passengers, not to mention
|> >pedestrians. You need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one.
|>
|> Indeed, and it kills far more than a system of public transport would. I am
|> therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with
|> trains, buses, taxis, bicycles, and so on.
Seconded. I cycle to work each day, and if we could just get
those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road, it
would be a lot more fun.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re mathewmantiscouk mathew writes
In article 1993Apr206523018676blazecsjhuedu
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
The automobile system kills nondriving passengers not to mention
pedestrians You need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one
Indeed and it kills far more than a system of public transport would I am
therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with
trains buses taxis bicycles and so on
Seconded I cycle to work each day and if we could just get
those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road it
would be a lot more fun
jon
preprocess doc From: (Rashid)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 76
In article <1993Apr14.131032.15644@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
>
> It is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema
> [Islamic scholars] that Islamic law applies only in an Islamic country,
> of which the UK is not. Furthermore, to take the law into one's own
> hands is a criminal act, as these are matters for the state, not for
> individuals. Nevertheless, Khomeini offered a cash prize for people to
> take the law into their own hands -- something which, to my
> understanding, is against Islamic law.
Yes, this is also my understanding of the majority of Islamic laws.
However, I believe there are also certain legal rulings which, in all
five schools of law (4 sunni and 1 jaffari), can be levelled against
muslim or non-muslims, both within and outside dar-al-islam. I do
not know if apostasy (when accompanied by active, persistent, and
open hostility to Islam) falls into this category of the law. I do know
that
historically, apostasy has very rarely been punished at all, let alone
by the death penalty.
My understanding is that Khomeini's ruling was not based on the
law of apostasy (alone). It was well known that Rushdie was an apostate
long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no
precedent in the Qur'an, hadith, or in Islamic history for indiscriminantly
levelling death penalties for apostasy.
I believe the charge levelled against Rushdie was that of "fasad". This
ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an
Islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals. The reward was
not offered by Khomeini but by individuals within Iran.
> Stuff deleted
> Also, I think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that
> Khomeini's fatwa was issued due to the _distribution_ of the book. My
> understanding is that Khomeini's fatwa was issued in response to the
> _writing_ and _publishing_ of the book. If my view is correct, then
> your viewpoint that Rushdie was sentenced for a "crime in progress" is
> incorrect.
>
I would concur that the thrust of the fatwa (from what I remember) was
levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication
of the book. However, the charge of "fasad" can encompass a
number of lesser charges. I remember that when diplomatic relations
broke off between Britain and Iran over the fatwa - Iran stressed that
the condemnation of the author, and the removal of the book from
circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the
"crisis". But you are correct to point out that banning the book was not
the main thrust behind the fatwa. Islamic charges such as fasad are
levelled at people, not books.
The Rushdie situation was followed in Iran for several months before the
issuance of the fatwa. Rushdie went on a media blitz,
presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of
secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people
crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred.
Fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost
his image and push the book, he was everywhere in the media. Then
Muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while
protesting against the book. Rushdie appeared momentarily
concerned, then climbed back on his media horse to once again
attack the Muslims and defend his sacred rights. It was at this
point that the fatwa on "fasad" was issued.
The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie - any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling. The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well. The
crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being
played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media.
P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the "fasad" ruling.
after prepro From Rashid
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 76
In article 1993Apr1413103215644monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
It is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema
[Islamic scholars] that Islamic law applies only in an Islamic country
of which the UK is not Furthermore to take the law into ones own
hands is a criminal act as these are matters for the state not for
individuals Nevertheless Khomeini offered a cash prize for people to
take the law into their own hands something which to my
understanding is against Islamic law
Yes this is also my understanding of the majority of Islamic laws
However I believe there are also certain legal rulings which in all
five schools of law 4 sunni and 1 jaffari can be levelled against
muslim or nonmuslims both within and outside daralislam I do
not know if apostasy when accompanied by active persistent and
open hostility to Islam falls into this category of the law I do know
that
historically apostasy has very rarely been punished at all let alone
by the death penalty
My understanding is that Khomeinis ruling was not based on the
law of apostasy alone It was well known that Rushdie was an apostate
long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no
precedent in the Quran hadith or in Islamic history for indiscriminantly
levelling death penalties for apostasy
I believe the charge levelled against Rushdie was that of fasad This
ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an
Islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals The reward was
not offered by Khomeini but by individuals within Iran
Stuff deleted
Also I think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that
Khomeinis fatwa was issued due to the _distribution_ of the book My
understanding is that Khomeinis fatwa was issued in response to the
_writing_ and _publishing_ of the book If my view is correct then
your viewpoint that Rushdie was sentenced for a crime in progress is
incorrect
I would concur that the thrust of the fatwa from what I remember was
levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication
of the book However the charge of fasad can encompass a
number of lesser charges I remember that when diplomatic relations
broke off between Britain and Iran over the fatwa Iran stressed that
the condemnation of the author and the removal of the book from
circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the
crisis But you are correct to point out that banning the book was not
the main thrust behind the fatwa Islamic charges such as fasad are
levelled at people not books
The Rushdie situation was followed in Iran for several months before the
issuance of the fatwa Rushdie went on a media blitz
presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of
secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people
crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred
Fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost
his image and push the book he was everywhere in the media Then
Muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while
protesting against the book Rushdie appeared momentarily
concerned then climbed back on his media horse to once again
attack the Muslims and defend his sacred rights It was at this
point that the fatwa on fasad was issued
The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well The
crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being
played out and played up in the the full view of the media
PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling
preprocess doc From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Origins of the bible.
Lines: 56
In article <1993Apr19.141112.15018@cs.nott.ac.uk>, eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright) writes:
> Hi,
>
> I have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with
> a theist acquaintance. He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered
> at a certain point in time which were syllable-perfect. This therefore
> meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time; the time quoted
> by my acquaintace was approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus.
Hi Adda,
Most Bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain
time -- the time when the author wrote it. Unfortunately, like all works
from this time period and earlier, all that exists today are copies.
>
> Cutting all of the crap out of the way (ie god wrote it) could anyone answer
> the following:
>
> 1. How old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament?
There are parts of books, scraps really, that date from around the
mid second century (A.D. 130+). There are some complete books, letters,
etc. from the middle third century. The first complete collection of
the New Testament dates from the early 4th century (A.D. 325). Throughout
this period are writings of various early church fathers/leaders who
quoted various scriptures in their writings.
> 2. Is there any truth in my acquaintance's statements?
If you mean that someone discovered thousands of "Bibles" which were all
perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st century...No!
If you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts (within the
dates given above, but not letter perfect) and that the most probable
text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest
original autographs (now lost) probably were written starting sometime
shortly after A.D. 50, then yes.
> 3. From who/where did the bible originate?
From the original authors. We call them Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter,
Paul, James, and one other not identified.
> 4. How long is a piece of string? ;-)
As long as you make it.
>
> Adda
>
> --
Regards,
Jim B.
after prepro From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Origins of the bible
Lines 56
In article 1993Apr1914111215018csnottacuk eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright writes
Hi
I have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with
a theist acquaintance He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered
at a certain point in time which were syllableperfect This therefore
meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted
by my acquaintace was approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus
Hi Adda
Most Bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain
time the time when the author wrote it Unfortunately like all works
from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies
Cutting all of the crap out of the way ie god wrote it could anyone answer
the following
1 How old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament
There are parts of books scraps really that date from around the
mid second century AD 130 There are some complete books letters
etc from the middle third century The first complete collection of
the New Testament dates from the early 4th century AD 325 Throughout
this period are writings of various early church fathersleaders who
quoted various scriptures in their writings
2 Is there any truth in my acquaintances statements
If you mean that someone discovered thousands of Bibles which were all
perfect copies dating from the last part of the 1st centuryNo
If you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts within the
dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable
text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest
original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime
shortly after AD 50 then yes
3 From whowhere did the bible originate
From the original authors We call them Matthew Mark Luke John Peter
Paul James and one other not identified
4 How long is a piece of string
As long as you make it
Adda
Regards
Jim B
preprocess doc From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Atlas revisited
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: sci
Lines: 8
I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to
maintain tank geometry....leads me to the question: ? have any
of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the
launch configuration would be significantly different from the
reentry one? I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures
as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others, a "ballon" tank
SSTO sounds very clever.
after prepro From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Atlas revisited
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Distribution sci
Lines 8
I found it very interesting that Atlas depended on pressure to
maintain tank geometryleads me to the question have any
of the SSTO concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the
launch configuration would be significantly different from the
reentry one I have long been facinated by pnumatic structures
as conceived and built by Frei Otto and others a ballon tank
SSTO sounds very clever
preprocess doc From: (Rashid)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 31
In article <1993Apr14.121134.12187@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
>
> >In article <C5C7Cn.5GB@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
Stuff deleted
> >>What we should be demanding, is for Khomeini and his ilk to publicly
> >>come clean and to show their proof that Islamic Law punishes
> >>apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of
> >>coversion of freedom of conscience.
All five schools of law (to the best of my knowledge) support the
death sentence for apostasy WHEN it is accompanied by open, persistent,
and aggravated hostility to Islam. Otherwise
I agree, there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief.
The Qur'an makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience. Public
or private disavowal of Islam or conversion to another faith is not
punishable (there are some jurists who have gone against this
trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable (even by death) - but
historically they are the exception.
Cursing and Insulting the Prophets falls under the category of "Shatim".
>
> I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeini's fatwa etc.
>Lots of stuff deleted<
>
> And, according to the above analysis, it looks like Khomeini's offering
> of a reward for Rushdie's death in fact constitutes a criminal act
> according to Islamic law.
Please see my post under "Re: Yet more Rushdie (ISLAMIC LAW)".
after prepro From Rashid
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 31
In article 1993Apr1412113412187monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
In article khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
Stuff deleted
What we should be demanding is for Khomeini and his ilk to publicly
come clean and to show their proof that Islamic Law punishes
apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of
coversion of freedom of conscience
All five schools of law to the best of my knowledge support the
death sentence for apostasy WHEN it is accompanied by open persistent
and aggravated hostility to Islam Otherwise
I agree there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief
The Quran makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience Public
or private disavowal of Islam or conversion to another faith is not
punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this
trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable even by death but
historically they are the exception
Cursing and Insulting the Prophets falls under the category of Shatim
I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeinis fatwa etc
Lots of stuff deleted
And according to the above analysis it looks like Khomeinis offering
of a reward for Rushdies death in fact constitutes a criminal act
according to Islamic law
Please see my post under Re Yet more Rushdie ISLAMIC LAW
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr19.130922.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1993Apr19.144427.17399@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
> Gene Wright (gene@theporch.raider.net) wrote:
> : Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
> : who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
> : Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
> : to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
>
> I'm an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work, and I
> throw around the $1 billion figure for that "reward." I suggest that
> you increase the Lunar reward to about $3 billion.
>
> This would encourage private industry to invest in space, which
> should be one of NASA's primary goals.
>
> -- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
> kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
>
> "Better. Faster. Cheaper." -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator
Also would maybe get the Russians Involved. After all they do have the resources
to do it in part.. But they need the capital and the goal..
I wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification?
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr191309221
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1993Apr1914442717399aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
Gene Wright genetheporchraidernet wrote
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
Im an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work and I
throw around the 1 billion figure for that reward I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about 3 billion
This would encourage private industry to invest in space which
should be one of NASAs primary goals
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
Better Faster Cheaper Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator
Also would maybe get the Russians Involved After all they do have the resources
to do it in part But they need the capital and the goal
I wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: ray@engr.LaTech.edu (Bill Ray)
Subject: Re: The Bible and Abortion
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Lines: 38
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: ee02.engr.latech.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
James J. Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu) wrote:
: Exodus 21:22-25:
: 22 And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with
: child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further
: injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may
: demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.
: 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint
: as a penalty life for life,
: 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
: 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
: The most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if
: men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry, the penalty
: is only a fine. If, however, the woman is injured or dies, the
: *lex talionis* doctrine of "an eye for an eye" applies. This is the
: Jewish interpretation, and is supported by Jewish commentaries on
: these verses.
: This is quite an embarrassment for pro-lifer Christians, so there is
: of course an alternate explanation. The alternative interprets the
: word "miscarriage" to mean "premature birth"--i.e., the child is born
: alive--and "further injury" to mean injury to either the woman or
: the fetus. This is not a straightforward interpretation, it is not
: (so far as I know) supported by any Jewish commentaries, and it does
: not appeared to be supported by any other part of the Bible.
What if any, historical reference do we have to abortion at this time? Did
the ancient Jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion? (I am
truly asking, not making a point veiled as a question). If there is
little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion, it is
not surprising the Bible makes little reference to it, as it makes little
reference to nuclear power and contamination.
While your interpretation is a reasonable one, I see no reason to reject
the other out of hand. The King Jimmy translation says "if there is no
further mischief." This does not necessarily imply to the woman. I know
if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort, we
would feel that a life was truly taken, not simply a process halted.
after prepro From rayengrLaTechedu Bill Ray
Subject Re The Bible and Abortion
Organization Louisiana Tech University
Lines 38
Distribution worldlocal
NNTPPostingHost ee02engrlatechedu
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
James J Lippard lippardskybluccitarizonaedu wrote
Exodus 212225
22 And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with
child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further
injury he shall surely be fined as the womans husband may
demand of him and he shall pay as the judges decide
23 But if there is any further injury then you shall appoint
as a penalty life for life
24 eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot
25 burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise
The most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if
men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry the penalty
is only a fine If however the woman is injured or dies the
lex talionis doctrine of an eye for an eye applies This is the
Jewish interpretation and is supported by Jewish commentaries on
these verses
This is quite an embarrassment for prolifer Christians so there is
of course an alternate explanation The alternative interprets the
word miscarriage to mean premature birthie the child is born
aliveand further injury to mean injury to either the woman or
the fetus This is not a straightforward interpretation it is not
so far as I know supported by any Jewish commentaries and it does
not appeared to be supported by any other part of the Bible
What if any historical reference do we have to abortion at this time Did
the ancient Jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion I am
truly asking not making a point veiled as a question If there is
little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion it is
not surprising the Bible makes little reference to it as it makes little
reference to nuclear power and contamination
While your interpretation is a reasonable one I see no reason to reject
the other out of hand The King Jimmy translation says if there is no
further mischief This does not necessarily imply to the woman I know
if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort we
would feel that a life was truly taken not simply a process halted
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23
In <sfnNTrC00WBO43LRUK@andrew.cmu.edu> "David R. Sacco" <dsav+@andrew.cmu.edu>
writes:
>After tons of mail, could we move this discussion to alt.religion?
Yes.
MAC
>=============================================================
>--There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke. (Bob Dylan)
>--"If you were happy every day of your life you wouldn't be a human
>being, you'd be a game show host." (taken from the movie "Heathers.")
>--Lecture (LEK chur) - process by which the notes of the professor
>become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of
>either.
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23
In David R Sacco
writes
After tons of mail could we move this discussion to altreligion
Yes
MAC
There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke Bob Dylan
If you were happy every day of your life you wouldnt be a human
being youd be a game show host taken from the movie Heathers
Lecture LEK chur process by which the notes of the professor
become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of
either
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Reply-To: eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk (A.Wainwright)
Organization: Nottingham University
Lines: 28
In article <healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) writes:
|> I hope you're not going to flame him. Please give him the same coutesy you'
|> ve given me.
|>
|> Tammy
If a person gives a well-balanced reasoned argument, Tammy, then all are
happy to discuss it with him. If he makes astounding claims, which are not
backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them.
If the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not
supportable then people would have simply ignored him. He did not. He
claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed. His argument was for
christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe
him and his message. I for one will not take things as read. If you told me
that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark
side of Jupiter then I would demand evidence!
Adda
--
+-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
| Adda Wainwright | Does dim atal y llanw! 8o) |
| eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk | 8o) Mae .sig 'ma ar werth! |
+-------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
after prepro From eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
ReplyTo eczcawmipsnottacuk AWainwright
Organization Nottingham University
Lines 28
In article healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy writes
I hope youre not going to flame him Please give him the same coutesy you
ve given me
Tammy
If a person gives a wellbalanced reasoned argument Tammy then all are
happy to discuss it with him If he makes astounding claims which are not
backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them
If the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not
supportable then people would have simply ignored him He did not He
claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed His argument was for
christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe
him and his message I for one will not take things as read If you told me
that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark
side of Jupiter then I would demand evidence
Adda
Adda Wainwright Does dim atal y llanw 8o
eczcawmipsnottacuk 8o Mae sig ma ar werth
preprocess doc From: jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz)
Subject: U.S. Space Foundation Speech
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Speech by Pete Worden
Delivered Before the U.S. Space Foundation Conference
Colorado Springs, Colorado
April 15, 1993
What a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble. For
providing me this forum I would sincerely like to thank the U.S.
Space Foundation. My topic today is the Single Stage Rocket
Technology rocket or SSRT. By I intend to speak of more. How to
lower the cost and make rapid progress. SSRT is to my mind --
and I hope to convince you -- the erupting a new rallying cry for
our generation in space -- Faster, Cheaper, and Better.
Faster, Cheaper, Better and SSRT represent the passing of a
torch from one technical generation to another. It is a new
thing to be sure -- but it is also a relearning of old things
from past masters.
When we rolled out the SSRT baby two weeks ago, so called
experts told us it violates the laws of physics -- it made no
sense. For example, Dr. Eberhart Rachtin - former president of
the Aerospace Corp., said of SSRT in the L.A. Times that it,
"defies the best principles of launching payloads into space."
Well Dr. Rachtin -- you've made us mad! What are these
principles that SSRT defies?
Well I'll tell you. It violates the principle that you need
a giant program office to build space hardware. It violates the
"fact" that it takes 20 years to build something new. And it
violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for
less than many billions of dollars.
It took some of the last generation's experts to teach us
some new/old lessons. Werhner Von Braun's first rocket was not a
Saturn V. General Schriever's ICBM's didn't take ten years to
demonstrate. And the X-1 airplane didn't cost $1 billion.
It took one of the great engineers of the 1950's to remind
us of these truths -- Max Hunter. Max, to remind you, was a
senior engineer in the Thor IRBM program, and old faster, better,
cheaper success story. Max has been persistent in a vision of a
single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960's.
Because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps - Build a
little, Test a little.
Next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration. We
didn't solicit a bunch of requirements -- they'd just change
every few years anyway. [ not included in the speech -- The
ALS/NLS has such ephemeral requirements that it would better
known as "Shape Shifter" than "Space Lifter." We didn't spend a
lot money -- this X-Rocket only cost $60 million. When's the
last time we even built a new airplane for that? And it didn't
take a lot of time to build -- McDonnell Douglas completed it in
18 months. Finally, the government program office consisted of
one very over-worked Air Force Major -- motivated in part by the
threat that he'd get to ride on it in a strapped-on lawn chair if
it ran over cost or schedule.
As I described what SSRT is -- and isn't keep in mind its
only a first step. There are several more steps -- and steps
that can easily fail -- before the U.S. can field an SSTO. But
each step should follow the same principles -- a small management
team -- a few years technology demonstration -- and a modest
budget.
Let me show a few details on SSRT and how it might evolve:
(See charts)
I'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's
and 1960's. They went to the moon - we built a telescope that
can't see straight. They soft-landed on Mars - the least we
could do is soft-land on Earth!
But we do have an answer. We can follow their build a
little, test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable
and routine access to space. I know there are nay sayers among
you -- those who say SSRT is a stunt. It needs more thermal
protection, the engines are wrong, it would be better to land
horizontally, etc, etc.
I say to you -- we'll see you at White Sands in June. You
bring your view-graphs, and I'll bring my rocketship. If we do
what we say we can do, then you let us do the next step. [ not
included in the speech: If we fail -- you still have your
program offices, staff summary sheets, requirement analyses, and
decade long programs.]
I bet on my generation and Max Hunter's idea -- Any Takers?
after prepro From jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz
Subject US Space Foundation Speech
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 94
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Speech by Pete Worden
Delivered Before the US Space Foundation Conference
Colorado Springs Colorado
April 15 1993
What a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble For
providing me this forum I would sincerely like to thank the US
Space Foundation My topic today is the Single Stage Rocket
Technology rocket or SSRT By I intend to speak of more How to
lower the cost and make rapid progress SSRT is to my mind
and I hope to convince you the erupting a new rallying cry for
our generation in space Faster Cheaper and Better
Faster Cheaper Better and SSRT represent the passing of a
torch from one technical generation to another It is a new
thing to be sure but it is also a relearning of old things
from past masters
When we rolled out the SSRT baby two weeks ago so called
experts told us it violates the laws of physics it made no
sense For example Dr Eberhart Rachtin former president of
the Aerospace Corp said of SSRT in the LA Times that it
defies the best principles of launching payloads into space
Well Dr Rachtin youve made us mad What are these
principles that SSRT defies
Well Ill tell you It violates the principle that you need
a giant program office to build space hardware It violates the
fact that it takes 20 years to build something new And it
violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for
less than many billions of dollars
It took some of the last generations experts to teach us
some newold lessons Werhner Von Brauns first rocket was not a
Saturn V General Schrievers ICBMs didnt take ten years to
demonstrate And the X1 airplane didnt cost 1 billion
It took one of the great engineers of the 1950s to remind
us of these truths Max Hunter Max to remind you was a
senior engineer in the Thor IRBM program and old faster better
cheaper success story Max has been persistent in a vision of a
single stage reusable space launch system since the 1960s
Because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps Build a
little Test a little
Next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration We
didnt solicit a bunch of requirements theyd just change
every few years anyway [ not included in the speech The
ALSNLS has such ephemeral requirements that it would better
known as Shape Shifter than Space Lifter We didnt spend a
lot money this XRocket only cost 60 million Whens the
last time we even built a new airplane for that And it didnt
take a lot of time to build McDonnell Douglas completed it in
18 months Finally the government program office consisted of
one very overworked Air Force Major motivated in part by the
threat that hed get to ride on it in a strappedon lawn chair if
it ran over cost or schedule
As I described what SSRT is and isnt keep in mind its
only a first step There are several more steps and steps
that can easily fail before the US can field an SSTO But
each step should follow the same principles a small management
team a few years technology demonstration and a modest
budget
Let me show a few details on SSRT and how it might evolve
See charts
Im embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation the giants of the last great space era the 1950s
and 1960s They went to the moon we built a telescope that
cant see straight They softlanded on Mars the least we
could do is softland on Earth
But we do have an answer We can follow their build a
little test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable
and routine access to space I know there are nay sayers among
you those who say SSRT is a stunt It needs more thermal
protection the engines are wrong it would be better to land
horizontally etc etc
I say to you well see you at White Sands in June You
bring your viewgraphs and Ill bring my rocketship If we do
what we say we can do then you let us do the next step [ not
included in the speech If we fail you still have your
program offices staff summary sheets requirement analyses and
decade long programs]
I bet on my generation and Max Hunters idea Any Takers
preprocess doc From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Clementine Science Team Selected
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 32
nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>In article <stephens.734792933@ngis> stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson) writes:
> Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was
> the Astronomer Royal, who was paid [...] from the Department
> of Ordinance Budget (i.e. the military). Flamsteed House (the original
> RGO) was built out of Army Surplus Scrap ( A gate house at the Tower of
> London ?), and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder [...]
>At the time, astronomy was vital to the military, in that navigation
>and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military, and good
>cartography was impossible without good astronomy.
>The relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious.
>Nick
It still applies, except the astronomy these days is Very Long Baseline
Radio Astronomy coupled to GPS and Satellite Laser Ranging. The data
from NASA's and the Naval Observatory's (among others) is a vital
source of data for studies into crustal dynamics, Earth rotation, and
purturbations. Every time there is a leap second added to the New Year,
remember the military and science are still co-habiting nicely. The
same VLBI was used to track Gallileo as it passed the Earth, and used
so little fuel that it can afford to observe Ida.
--
Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca
after prepro From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Clementine Science Team Selected
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 32
nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
In article stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson writes
Remember the first government scientist in the British Empire was
the Astronomer Royal who was paid [] from the Department
of Ordinance Budget ie the military Flamsteed House the original
RGO was built out of Army Surplus Scrap A gate house at the Tower of
London and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder []
At the time astronomy was vital to the military in that navigation
and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military and good
cartography was impossible without good astronomy
The relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious
Nick
It still applies except the astronomy these days is Very Long Baseline
Radio Astronomy coupled to GPS and Satellite Laser Ranging The data
from NASAs and the Naval Observatorys among others is a vital
source of data for studies into crustal dynamics Earth rotation and
purturbations Every time there is a leap second added to the New Year
remember the military and science are still cohabiting nicely The
same VLBI was used to track Gallileo as it passed the Earth and used
so little fuel that it can afford to observe Ida
Dave Stephenson
Geodetic Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
I thought that under emergency conditions, the STS can
put down at any good size Airport. IF it could take a C-5 or a
747, then it can take an orbiter. You just need a VOR/TAC
I don't know if they need ILS.
pat
ANyone know for sure.
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
I thought that under emergency conditions the STS can
put down at any good size Airport IF it could take a C5 or a
747 then it can take an orbiter You just need a VORTAC
I dont know if they need ILS
pat
ANyone know for sure
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 44
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>Humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly? In one thread
>you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
>survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
>being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong. So
>what does this omniscient being use for a criterion? The long-
>term survival of the human species, or what?
Well, that's the question, isn't it? The goals are probably not all that
obvious. We can set up a few goals, like happiness and liberty and
the golden rule, etc. But these goals aren't inherent. They have to
be defined before an objective system is possible.
>How does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign
>"right" and "wrong" to actions?
It is not too difficult, one you have goals in mind, and absolute
knoweldge of everyone's intent, etc.
>>Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. This
>>was not part of the original premise.
>Well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time,
>so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the
>difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right"
>and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is.
Omniscience is fine, as long as information is not given away. Isn't
this the resolution of the free will problem? An interactive omniscient
being changes the situation.
>>Which type of morality are you talking about? In a natural sense, it
>>is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
>>adversely affect your own, I guess).
>I'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to
>be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign
>"right" and "wrong" to actions.
>You tell us what type of morality that is.
Well, I was speaking about an objective system in general. I didn't
mention a specific goal, which would be necessary to determine the
morality of an action.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re Humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly In one thread
youre telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion The long
term survival of the human species or what
Well thats the question isnt it The goals are probably not all that
obvious We can set up a few goals like happiness and liberty and
the golden rule etc But these goals arent inherent They have to
be defined before an objective system is possible
How does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign
right and wrong to actions
It is not too difficult one you have goals in mind and absolute
knoweldge of everyones intent etc
Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me This
was not part of the original premise
Well your original premises have a habit of changing over time
so perhaps youd like to review it for us and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right
and wrong to actions and telling us the result is
Omniscience is fine as long as information is not given away Isnt
this the resolution of the free will problem An interactive omniscient
being changes the situation
Which type of morality are you talking about In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
Im talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign
right and wrong to actions
You tell us what type of morality that is
Well I was speaking about an objective system in general I didnt
mention a specific goal which would be necessary to determine the
morality of an action
keith
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Washington Post Article on SSF Redesign
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 52
"Space Station Redesign Leader Says Cost Goal May Be
Impossible"
Today (4/6) the Washington Post ran an article with the
headline shown above. The article starts with "A leader
of the NASA team in charge of redesigning the planned
space station said yesterday the job is tough and may
be impossible." O'Connor is quoted saying whether it is
possible to cut costs that much and still provide for
meaningful research "is a real question for me."
O'Connor said "everything is fair game," including
"dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the
aerospace industry, chopping management of the space
station program at some NASA facilities around the
country, working closely with the Russian space station
Mir, and using unmanned Titan rockets to supplement the
manned space shuttle fleet."
O'Connor says his team has reviewed 30 design options
so far, and they are sorting the serious candidates
into three categories based on cost.
The Post says O'Connor described the design derived
from the current SSF as a high cost option (I believe
Kathy Sawyer, the Post writer, got confused here. I
listened in on part of O'Connor's briefing to the press
on Monday, and in one part of the briefing O'Connor
talked about how the White House wants three options,
sorted by cost [low, medium, and high]. In another part
of the briefing, he discussed the three teams he has
formed to look at three options [SSF derivative @ LaRC,
modular buildup with Bus-1 @ MSFC, and Single Launch
Core ["wingless Orbiter"] @ JSC. Later, in response to
a reporters question, I thought I heard O'Connor say
the option based on a SSF redesign was a "moderate"
cost option, in between low & high cost options. Not
the "high cost" option as Sawyer wrote).
The article goes on to describe the other two options
as "one features modules that could gradually be fitted
together in orbit, similar to the Russian Mir. The
other is a core facility that could be deposited in
orbit in a single launch, like Skylab. That option
would use existing hardware from the space shuttle -
the fuselage, for example, in its basic structure."
The last sentence in the article contradicts the title
& the first paragraph. The sentence reads "He
[O'Connor] said a streamlined version of the planned
space station Freedom is still possible within the
administration's budget guidelines."
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Washington Post Article on SSF Redesign
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 52
Space Station Redesign Leader Says Cost Goal May Be
Impossible
Today 46 the Washington Post ran an article with the
headline shown above The article starts with A leader
of the NASA team in charge of redesigning the planned
space station said yesterday the job is tough and may
be impossible OConnor is quoted saying whether it is
possible to cut costs that much and still provide for
meaningful research is a real question for me
OConnor said everything is fair game including
dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the
aerospace industry chopping management of the space
station program at some NASA facilities around the
country working closely with the Russian space station
Mir and using unmanned Titan rockets to supplement the
manned space shuttle fleet
OConnor says his team has reviewed 30 design options
so far and they are sorting the serious candidates
into three categories based on cost
The Post says OConnor described the design derived
from the current SSF as a high cost option I believe
Kathy Sawyer the Post writer got confused here I
listened in on part of OConnors briefing to the press
on Monday and in one part of the briefing OConnor
talked about how the White House wants three options
sorted by cost [low medium and high] In another part
of the briefing he discussed the three teams he has
formed to look at three options [SSF derivative LaRC
modular buildup with Bus1 MSFC and Single Launch
Core [wingless Orbiter] JSC Later in response to
a reporters question I thought I heard OConnor say
the option based on a SSF redesign was a moderate
cost option in between low high cost options Not
the high cost option as Sawyer wrote
The article goes on to describe the other two options
as one features modules that could gradually be fitted
together in orbit similar to the Russian Mir The
other is a core facility that could be deposited in
orbit in a single launch like Skylab That option
would use existing hardware from the space shuttle
the fuselage for example in its basic structure
The last sentence in the article contradicts the title
the first paragraph The sentence reads He
[OConnor] said a streamlined version of the planned
space station Freedom is still possible within the
administrations budget guidelines
preprocess doc From: pef1@quads.uchicago.edu (it's enrico palazzo!)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. Where are they?
Reply-To: pef1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Lines: 36
> = From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
> If all of these things have been detected in space, has anyone
> looked into possible problems with the detectors?
> That is, is there some mechanism (cosmic rays, whatever) that
> could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
> things?
> Graydon
That would not explain why widely separated detectors, such as on Ulysses
and PVO and Ginga et al., would see a burst at the same time(*). In fact, be-
fore BATSE, having this widely separated "Interplanetary Network" was the
only sure way to locate a random burst. With only one detector, one cannot
locate a burst (except to say "It's somewhere in the field of view."). With
two detectors, one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector
to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky. With three detectors,
one gets intersecting annuli, giving two possible locations. If one of these
locations is impossible (because, say, the Earth blocked that part of the
sky), voila, you have an error box.
BATSE, by having 8 detectors of its own, can do its own location determination,
but only to within about 3 degrees (would someone at GSFC, like David, like
to comment on the current state of location determination?). Having inde-
pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty.
You did touch on something that you didn't mean to, though. Some believe
(in a reference that I have somewhere) that absorption-like features seen
in a fraction of GRBs can actually be caused by the detector. It would be
a mean, nasty God, though, that would have a NaI crystal act like a 10^12 Gauss
neutron star...but this is getting too far afield.
Peter
peterf@oddjob.uchicago.edu
after prepro From pef1quadsuchicagoedu its enrico palazzo
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters Where are they
ReplyTo pef1midwayuchicagoedu
Organization University of Chicago
Lines 36
From Graydon
If all of these things have been detected in space has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors
That is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things
Graydon
That would not explain why widely separated detectors such as on Ulysses
and PVO and Ginga et al would see a burst at the same time In fact be
fore BATSE having this widely separated Interplanetary Network was the
only sure way to locate a random burst With only one detector one cannot
locate a burst except to say Its somewhere in the field of view With
two detectors one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector
to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky With three detectors
one gets intersecting annuli giving two possible locations If one of these
locations is impossible because say the Earth blocked that part of the
sky voila you have an error box
BATSE by having 8 detectors of its own can do its own location determination
but only to within about 3 degrees would someone at GSFC like David like
to comment on the current state of location determination Having inde
pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty
You did touch on something that you didnt mean to though Some believe
in a reference that I have somewhere that absorptionlike features seen
in a fraction of GRBs can actually be caused by the detector It would be
a mean nasty God though that would have a NaI crystal act like a 10^12 Gauss
neutron starbut this is getting too far afield
Peter
peterfoddjobuchicagoedu
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 74
In article <114140@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>>>> In cases of prostitution
>>>>>both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public, quite
>>>>>severely.
(Deletion)
>
>>No Gregg, you cannot say A is lenient and A punishes severely in public.
>>Unless, of course, it is one of the exceptions implied by "almost all
>>matters".
>
>That depends on the statistics and who is punished in public. If some
>power (for example, nothing Islamic about it) allows men to rape women
>five times before blowing the rapist's head off in public then I'd call
>that leniency, wouldn't you?
>
You have given that example. It is not lenient. End of argument.
And chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either. It
rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system
without checking if they suit the description.
And wasn't the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according
to Islamic law?
>>While I don't approve of it, I think both the prostitute and the customer
>>have the right to do what they do. In other words, punishing them is a
>>violation of their rights. And to punish them severely in public is just
>>another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many
>>religions.
>
>Believe what you like.
>
No, I even believe what I don't like. Can you give better answers than that?
Have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims?
>>In this case, I don't see why I should accept the complex ridden views
>>of an oriental goatherd.
>
>Ah, yes, I forget that the West is historically so much without sexual
>neurosis :)
>
>"Oriental goatherd", _really_ intellectual.
>
A fact, if memory serves. And most will see the connection between the
primitive machism in the Orient and in Islam.
>>If people agree on having sex it is fine. And I would assume that a
>>god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it
>>are.
>
>Huh? Ever heard of AIDs? (Of course you'll probably go on to say that
>God must be evil because he allows the disease to exist, bla bla).
>
As usually you miss the point. Aids is neither spread only through sex
nor necessarily spread by having sex. Futher, the point is, a very important
point, the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of AIDS. It is even
stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex. The
consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of Aids.
Please note that the idea that everybody would end up with AIDS when sex
is not controlled is completely counterfactual.
And since you have brought up the point, is your god evil or not?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 74
In article 114140buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In cases of prostitution
both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public quite
severely
Deletion
No Gregg you cannot say A is lenient and A punishes severely in public
Unless of course it is one of the exceptions implied by almost all
matters
That depends on the statistics and who is punished in public If some
power for example nothing Islamic about it allows men to rape women
five times before blowing the rapists head off in public then Id call
that leniency wouldnt you
You have given that example It is not lenient End of argument
And chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either It
rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system
without checking if they suit the description
And wasnt the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according
to Islamic law
While I dont approve of it I think both the prostitute and the customer
have the right to do what they do In other words punishing them is a
violation of their rights And to punish them severely in public is just
another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many
religions
Believe what you like
No I even believe what I dont like Can you give better answers than that
Have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims
In this case I dont see why I should accept the complex ridden views
of an oriental goatherd
Ah yes I forget that the West is historically so much without sexual
neurosis
Oriental goatherd _really_ intellectual
A fact if memory serves And most will see the connection between the
primitive machism in the Orient and in Islam
If people agree on having sex it is fine And I would assume that a
god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it
are
Huh Ever heard of AIDs Of course youll probably go on to say that
God must be evil because he allows the disease to exist bla bla
As usually you miss the point Aids is neither spread only through sex
nor necessarily spread by having sex Futher the point is a very important
point the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of AIDS It is even
stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex The
consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of Aids
Please note that the idea that everybody would end up with AIDS when sex
is not controlled is completely counterfactual
And since you have brought up the point is your god evil or not
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31
In article <kmr4.1572.734847158@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
>Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 04:12:38 GMT
>
>(S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>>(TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>>I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named
>>>Ellen G. White. I hope that what she said will help you to edit your
>>>remarks in this group in the future.
>>>
>>>"Do not set yourself as a standard. Do not make your opinions, your views
>>>of duty, your interpretations of scripture, a criterion for others and in
>>>your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal."
>>> Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p. 124
>>
>>Point?
>
> Point: you have taken it upon yourself to judge others; when only
>God is the true judge.
>
>---
>
> Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible.
>
>
I agree totally with you! Amen! You stated it better and in less world
than I did.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 041238 GMT
SN Mozumder writes
TAMMY R HEALY writes
I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named
Ellen G White I hope that what she said will help you to edit your
remarks in this group in the future
Do not set yourself as a standard Do not make your opinions your views
of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in
your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal
Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p 124
Point
Point you have taken it upon yourself to judge others when only
God is the true judge
Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible
I agree totally with you Amen You stated it better and in less world
than I did
Tammy
preprocess doc From: rm03@ic.ac.uk (Mr R. Mellish)
Subject: Re: university violating separation of church/state?
Organization: Imperial College
Lines: 33
Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.31.80.14
In article <199304041750.AA17104@kepler.unh.edu> dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings) writes:
>
>
>
> Recently, RAs have been ordered (and none have resisted or cared about
>it apparently) to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll: Thoughts
>on religion, spirituality, and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
>stall doors. (at my school, the University of New Hampshire) It is some sort
>of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus.
[most of post deleted]
>
> Please respond as soon as possible. I'd like these religious postings to
>stop, NOW!
>
>
>Thanks,
>
> Dana
>
>
>
There is an easy way out....
Post the flyers on the stall doors, but add at the bottom, in nice large
capitals,
EMERGENCY TOILET PAPER
:)
--
------ Robert Mellish, FOG, IC, UK ------
Email: r.mellish@ic.ac.uk Net: rm03@sg1.cc.ic.ac.uk IRC: HobNob
------ and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work. ------
after prepro From rm03icacuk Mr R Mellish
Subject Re university violating separation of churchstate
Organization Imperial College
Lines 33
NntpPostingHost 129318014
In article 199304041750AA17104keplerunhedu dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes
Recently RAs have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about
it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled _The Soul Scroll Thoughts
on religion spirituality and matters of the soul_ on the inside of bathroom
stall doors at my school the University of New Hampshire It is some sort
of newsletter assembled by a Hall Director somewhere on campus
[most of post deleted]
Please respond as soon as possible Id like these religious postings to
stop NOW
Thanks
Dana
There is an easy way out
Post the flyers on the stall doors but add at the bottom in nice large
capitals
EMERGENCY TOILET PAPER
Robert Mellish FOG IC UK
Email rmellishicacuk Net rm03sg1ccicacuk IRC HobNob
and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work
preprocess doc From: DKELO@msmail.pepperdine.edu (Dan Kelo)
Subject: M-81 Supernova
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 7
How 'bout some more info on that alleged supernova in M-81?
I might just break out the scope for this one.
____________________________________________________
"No sir, I don't like it! "-- Mr. Horse
Dan Kelo dkelo@pepvax.pepperdine.edu
____________________________________________________
after prepro From DKELOmsmailpepperdineedu Dan Kelo
Subject M81 Supernova
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 7
How bout some more info on that alleged supernova in M81
I might just break out the scope for this one
____________________________________________________
No sir I dont like it Mr Horse
Dan Kelo dkelopepvaxpepperdineedu
____________________________________________________
preprocess doc From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Islam vs the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Society for Trying Really Hard
Lines: 25
In article <1993Apr2.223248.19014@Princeton.EDU> qpliu@princeton.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.115300.803@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
>>the other angels free moral will.
>
>>Now God could have prevented Lucifer's fall by taking away his ability
>>to choose between moral alternatives (worship God or worship himself),
>
>So Lucifer's moral choices are determined by his will.
>What determines what his will is?
>--
>qpliu@princeton.edu Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.
Bobby-
A few posts ago you said that Lucifer had no free will. From the above
it seems the JW believes the contrary.
Are you talking about the same Lucifer?
If so, can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong?
Or do you claim that you are both right?
-Norman
after prepro From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Islam vs the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Society for Trying Really Hard
Lines 25
In article 1993Apr222324819014PrincetonEDU qpliuprincetonedu writes
In article 1993Apr2115300803batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
the other angels free moral will
Now God could have prevented Lucifers fall by taking away his ability
to choose between moral alternatives worship God or worship himself
So Lucifers moral choices are determined by his will
What determines what his will is
qpliuprincetonedu Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated
Bobby
A few posts ago you said that Lucifer had no free will From the above
it seems the JW believes the contrary
Are you talking about the same Lucifer
If so can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong
Or do you claim that you are both right
Norman
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22
In <1r6ub0$mgl@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.164801.7530@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>> Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
>>players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
>>per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.
>>
>I don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity,
>id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.
Careful. Making statements about how solid state is (generally) more
reliable than analog will get you a nasty follow-up from Tommy Mac or
Pat. Wait a minute; you *are* Pat. Pleased to see that you're not
suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind. ;-)
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22
In 1r6ub0mglaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Apr221648017530julianuwoca jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems
I dont think so at first but solid state offered better reliabity
id bet and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up
Careful Making statements about how solid state is generally more
reliable than analog will get you a nasty followup from Tommy Mac or
Pat Wait a minute you are Pat Pleased to see that youre not
suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com
Subject: What counntries do space surveillance?
Organization: Science Applications Int'l Corp./San Diego
Lines: 111
Ethnocentric USian that I am, I've assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
non-cooperative objects in low Earth orbit. Grazing in a couple of
databases recently, I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line, and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys (it isn't clear whether the radar can
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects). Abstracts of
the articles are appended.
This leads to the more general question: do yet other people than
the US, Russia, and Japan do space surveillance, and if so, how and
why?
Allen Thomson SAIC McLean, VA, USA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACTS
Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite (EGS)
TAKABE, MASAO; ITABE, TOSHIKAZU; ARUGA, TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory, Review (ISSN 0033-801X), vol. 34,
March 1988, p. 23-34. In Japanese, with abstract in English.
This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
(experimental geodetic satellite) which was launched on August 13,
1986, by NASDA. The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory (RRL) optical ground <----
station are discussed. A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described. The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed. In addition, it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite (JAS-1) which was
launched with the EGS, was accurately determined by means of a <----
satellite tracking video. It is clear from this experiment that <----
optical observation data (i.e., satellite direction data) are very <----
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch <----
stages. Furthermore, the results confirm the effectivenes of these <----
two satellite optical tracking techniques. <----
MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO, TORU; KAYAMA, HIDETOSHI; FURUSAWA, AKIRA; KIMURA, IWANE
(Kyoto University, Japan)
AIAA, NASA, and DOD, Orbital Debris Conference: Technical Issues and
Future Directions, Baltimore, MD, Apr. 16-19, 1990. 10 p.
RPN: AIAA PAPER 90-1343
Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high-
power VHF Doppler radar (MU radar) of Japan. An automated data
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail
echoes or lightning atmospherics. Although the results are preliminary,
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar <----
observations using a much higher frequency. It is found that the <----
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as
once per two years.
Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora (EXOS-C)
SATO, T.; INOOKA, Y.; FUKAO, S. (Kyoto Univ., Japan); KATO, S.
Kyoto Univ., Uji (Japan). Radio Atmospheric Science Center.
In International Council of Scientific Unions, Middle Atmosphere Program.
Handbook for MAP, Vol. 20 5 p
Publication Date: Jun. 1986
As the first attempt among MST (mesosphere stratosphere
troposphere) type radars, the MU (middle and upper atmosphere) radar
features an active phased array system. Unlike the conventional large
VHF radars, in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed
to individual antenna elements, each of 475 solid state power amplifier
feeds each antenna element. This system configuration enables very fast
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the
antenna into independent subarrays, because phase shift and signal
division/combination are performed at a low signal level using
electronic devices under control of a computer network. The antenna
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the
zenith angle of 30 deg. Since a precise phase alignment of each element
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system, careful
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna
element was carried out. Among various aircraft which may be used for
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to
make a long term monitoring with the same system. An antenna pattern
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific
satellite OHZORA (EXOS-C). A receiver named MUM (MU radar antenna
Monitor) on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400
watts transmitted from the MU radar. The principle of the measurement
and results are discussed.
Equatorial radar system
FUKAO, SHOICHIRO; TSUDA, TOSHITAKA; SATO, TORU; KATO, SUSUMU
(Kyoto University, Uji, Japan)
(COSPAR, IAGA, SCOSTEP, et al., Plenary Meeting, 27th,
Workshops and Symposium on the Earth's Middle Atmosphere,
Espoo, Finland, July 18-29, 1988) Advances in Space Research
(ISSN 0273-1177), vol. 10, no. 10, 1990, p. 151-154.
A large clear air radar with the sensitivity of an incoherent
scatter radar for observing the whole equatorial atmosphere up to 1000
km altitude is now being designed in Japan. The radar will be built in
Pontianak, West Kalimantan, Indonesia (0.03 deg N, 109.29 deg E). The
system is a 47-MHz monostatic Doppler radar with an active phased array
configuration similar to that of the MU radar in Japan, which has been
in successful operation since 1983. It will have a PA product of about
3 x 10 to the 9th W sq m (P = average transmitter power, A = effective
antenna aperture) with a sensitivity of approximately 10 times that of
the MU radar. This system configuration enables pulse-to-pulse beam
steering within 20 deg from the zenith. As is the case of the MU radar,
a variety of operations will be made feasible under the supervision of
the radar controller. A brief description of the system configuration
is presented.
after prepro From thomsonalcpvasaiccom
Subject What counntries do space surveillance
Organization Science Applications Intl CorpSan Diego
Lines 111
Ethnocentric USian that I am Ive assumed that we and the
xUSSR were the only countries with significant capabilities to track
noncooperative objects in low Earth orbit Grazing in a couple of
databases recently I found that Japan has some optical capabilities
along this line and also uses a radar designed for other purposes
for orbital debris surveys it isnt clear whether the radar can
determine orbital elements for the objects it detects Abstracts of
the articles are appended
This leads to the more general question do yet other people than
the US Russia and Japan do space surveillance and if so how and
why
Allen Thomson SAIC McLean VA USA
ABSTRACTS
Optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite EGS
TAKABE MASAO ITABE TOSHIKAZU ARUGA TADASHI
Radio Research Laboratory Review ISSN 0033801X vol 34
March 1988 p 2334 In Japanese with abstract in English
This paper reports the optical tracking results of EGS
experimental geodetic satellite which was launched on August 13
1986 by NASDA The EGS optical tracking experiment process and an
outline of the Radio Research Laboratory RRL optical ground
station are discussed A star tracking technique for optical
equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit
prediction improvement are also described The accuracy of EGS
tracking data obtained by RRL at the request of NASDA is also
discussed In addition it is briefly demonstrated that the
position of the Japanese amateur satellite JAS1 which was
launched with the EGS was accurately determined by means of a
satellite tracking video It is clear from this experiment that
optical observation data ie satellite direction data are very
useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch
stages Furthermore the results confirm the effectivenes of these
two satellite optical tracking techniques
MU radar measurements of orbital debris
SATO TORU KAYAMA HIDETOSHI FURUSAWA AKIRA KIMURA IWANE
Kyoto University Japan
AIAA NASA and DOD Orbital Debris Conference Technical Issues and
Future Directions Baltimore MD Apr 1619 1990 10 p
RPN AIAA PAPER 901343
Distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross
section are determined from a series of observations made with a high
power VHF Doppler radar MU radar of Japan An automated data
processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of
orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail
echoes or lightning atmospherics Although the results are preliminary
they showed good agreement with those from NORAD tracking radar
observations using a much higher frequency It is found that the
collision frequency of a Space Station of 1 km x 1 km size at an
altitude of 500 km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as
once per two years
Monitoring of the MU radar antenna pattern by Satellite Ohzora EXOSC
SATO T INOOKA Y FUKAO S Kyoto Univ Japan KATO S
Kyoto Univ Uji Japan Radio Atmospheric Science Center
In International Council of Scientific Unions Middle Atmosphere Program
Handbook for MAP Vol 20 5 p
Publication Date Jun 1986
As the first attempt among MST mesosphere stratosphere
troposphere type radars the MU middle and upper atmosphere radar
features an active phased array system Unlike the conventional large
VHF radars in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed
to individual antenna elements each of 475 solid state power amplifier
feeds each antenna element This system configuration enables very fast
beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the
antenna into independent subarrays because phase shift and signal
divisioncombination are performed at a low signal level using
electronic devices under control of a computer network The antenna
beam can be switched within 10 microsec to any direction within the
zenith angle of 30 deg Since a precise phase alignment of each element
is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system careful
calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna
element was carried out Among various aircraft which may be used for
this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to
make a long term monitoring with the same system An antenna pattern
monitoring system for the MU radar was developed using the scientific
satellite OHZORA EXOSC A receiver named MUM MU radar antenna
Monitor on board the satellite measures a CW signal of 100 to 400
watts transmitted from the MU radar The principle of the measurement
and results are discussed
Equatorial radar system
FUKAO SHOICHIRO TSUDA TOSHITAKA SATO TORU KATO SUSUMU
Kyoto University Uji Japan
COSPAR IAGA SCOSTEP et al Plenary Meeting 27th
Workshops and Symposium on the Earths Middle Atmosphere
Espoo Finland July 1829 1988 Advances in Space Research
ISSN 02731177 vol 10 no 10 1990 p 151154
A large clear air radar with the sensitivity of an incoherent
scatter radar for observing the whole equatorial atmosphere up to 1000
km altitude is now being designed in Japan The radar will be built in
Pontianak West Kalimantan Indonesia 003 deg N 10929 deg E The
system is a 47MHz monostatic Doppler radar with an active phased array
configuration similar to that of the MU radar in Japan which has been
in successful operation since 1983 It will have a PA product of about
3 x 10 to the 9th W sq m P average transmitter power A effective
antenna aperture with a sensitivity of approximately 10 times that of
the MU radar This system configuration enables pulsetopulse beam
steering within 20 deg from the zenith As is the case of the MU radar
a variety of operations will be made feasible under the supervision of
the radar controller A brief description of the system configuration
is presented
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: There must be a creator! (Maybe)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu
In article <1993Apr2.144909.806@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr2.165032.3356@bradford.ac.uk>, L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
[deletions]
>>...Argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of
>> reasoning since medieval times.
[deletions]
>Interesting that you should mention that "Argument from incredulity has
>not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times." I
>quite agree. Why then, do some atheists here engage in it? More than
>a few times I have read posts where the atheists posting state that
>they 'cannot see how a gracious and loving God can allow such evil and
>suffering to occur as we see on the earth.' Simply because they cannot
>envision it, it must not be true. If this is not an argument from
>incredulity, I don't know what is!
As you have presented it, it is indeed an argument from incredulity.
However, from what I have seen, it is not often presented in this manner.
It is usually presented more in the form, "And *besides*, I cannot see...
...nor have I ever been offered a convincing explanation."
Moreover, it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such
phenomena. That theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not
an argument in theism's favor. Especially when different theisms offer
different explanations, and even different adherents of what is purportedly
the same theism give different explanations...
> God has far more complex motivations
>and reasons for action or non-action than to simply "fix" evil whenever
>and however it occurs, or even *before* it occurs. And yet, it is this
>very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons
>why atheists (in general) reject God and in particular the Christian God.
Not im my experience. In my experience, the most common reason is the
lack of evidence in theism's favor. You mileage may vary. :->
>This seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality,
>to wit, that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning
>on the part of one's opponents than it is to see it in oneself.
Oh, heck, I'll be snide this once. :-> It's also fairly easy to attack
arguments that are not made. (I.e. 'strawmen'.)
>As one Man of Wisdom put it, take the log out of your own eye before you
>try to remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye.
Sage advice indeed.
Sincerely,
Raymond Ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu
"An apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away." - B. Kliban
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re There must be a creator Maybe
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 51
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu
In article 1993Apr2144909806batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 1993Apr21650323356bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
[deletions]
Argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of
reasoning since medieval times
[deletions]
Interesting that you should mention that Argument from incredulity has
not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times I
quite agree Why then do some atheists here engage in it More than
a few times I have read posts where the atheists posting state that
they cannot see how a gracious and loving God can allow such evil and
suffering to occur as we see on the earth Simply because they cannot
envision it it must not be true If this is not an argument from
incredulity I dont know what is
As you have presented it it is indeed an argument from incredulity
However from what I have seen it is not often presented in this manner
It is usually presented more in the form And besides I cannot see
nor have I ever been offered a convincing explanation
Moreover it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such
phenomena That theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not
an argument in theisms favor Especially when different theisms offer
different explanations and even different adherents of what is purportedly
the same theism give different explanations
God has far more complex motivations
and reasons for action or nonaction than to simply fix evil whenever
and however it occurs or even before it occurs And yet it is this
very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons
why atheists in general reject God and in particular the Christian God
Not im my experience In my experience the most common reason is the
lack of evidence in theisms favor You mileage may vary
This seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality
to wit that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning
on the part of ones opponents than it is to see it in oneself
Oh heck Ill be snide this once Its also fairly easy to attack
arguments that are not made Ie strawmen
As one Man of Wisdom put it take the log out of your own eye before you
try to remove the splinter from your neighbors eye
Sage advice indeed
Sincerely
Raymond Ingles inglesenginumichedu
An apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away B Kliban
preprocess doc From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 38
>In article <kutluk.734797558@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>>Atheists are not
>>mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view, and a
>>minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing.
I guess that's why scientists probably aren't mentioned either. Or
stock brokers. Or television repairmen.
It's precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood
( that it takes to progress a religion ) cleans away a very substantial
part of the reasoning neurons.
But don't mind me; I don't exist.
-jim halat
after prepro From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 38
In article kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven writes
Atheists are not
mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view and a
minutes reasoning one can see that there is no such thing
I guess thats why scientists probably arent mentioned either Or
stock brokers Or television repairmen
Its precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood
that it takes to progress a religion cleans away a very substantial
part of the reasoning neurons
But dont mind me I dont exist
jim halat
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Studies on Book of Mormon
Lines: 31
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 31
In article <735023059snx@enkidu.mic.cl> agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt) writes:
>From: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt)
>Subject: Studies on Book of Mormon
>Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 14:15:33 CST
>Hi!
>
>I don't know much about Mormons, and I want to know about serious independent
>studies about the Book of Mormon.
>
>I don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven,
>but haven't read the Book of Mormon by myself (I have to much work learning
>Biblical Hebrew), I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
>in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on.
>
>For example: There is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers?
>There are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later
>discovered by archeologist?
>
>Yours in Collen
>
>Andres Grino Brandt Casilla 14801 - Santiago 21
>agrino@enkidu.mic.cl Chile
>
>No hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta
I don't think the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from Biblical
Hebrew. I've read that "prophet Joseph Smith" traslated the gold tablets
from some sort of Egyptian-ish language.
Former Mormons, PLEASE post.
Tammy "no trim" Healy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Studies on Book of Mormon
Lines 31
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 31
In article 735023059snxenkidumiccl agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt writes
From agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt
Subject Studies on Book of Mormon
Date Sun 18 Apr 1993 141533 CST
Hi
I dont know much about Mormons and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon
I dont buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven
but havent read the Book of Mormon by myself I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style vocabulary placenames internal consistency and so on
For example There is evidence for onewriter or multiple writers
There are some mention about events places or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist
Yours in Collen
Andres Grino Brandt Casilla 14801 Santiago 21
agrinoenkidumiccl Chile
No hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta
I dont think the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from Biblical
Hebrew Ive read that prophet Joseph Smith traslated the gold tablets
from some sort of Egyptianish language
Former Mormons PLEASE post
Tammy no trim Healy
preprocess doc From: aa429@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Ford)
Subject: NASP
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 15
Could someone please send me the basics of the NASP project:
1. The proposal/objectives
2. The current status of the project/obstacles encountered
3. Chance that the project shall ever be completed
or any other interesting information about this project.
Any help will be much appreciated
--
Terry Ford [aa429@freenet.carleton.ca]
>House, Nepean, Ontario, Canada, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Cluster A21<
DISCALIMER: Any injuries occuring as a direct result from the reading of this
message INCLUDING HEART PALPITATIONS is not my fault in any shape or form.
after prepro From aa429freenetcarletonca Terry Ford
Subject NASP
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 15
Could someone please send me the basics of the NASP project
1 The proposalobjectives
2 The current status of the projectobstacles encountered
3 Chance that the project shall ever be completed
or any other interesting information about this project
Any help will be much appreciated
Terry Ford [aa429freenetcarletonca]
House Nepean Ontario Canada Earth Solar System Milky Way Cluster A21
DISCALIMER Any injuries occuring as a direct result from the reading of this
message INCLUDING HEART PALPITATIONS is not my fault in any shape or form
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Dreams and Degrees (was Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 19
higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
...
>Like others involved in sci.space, Mr. Adams shows symptoms of being a
>fledgling member of the technoculture, and I think he's soaking it up
>fast. I was a young guy with dreams once, and they led me to get a
>technical education to follow them up. Too bad I wound up in an
>assembly-line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day...
>(-:
How can you tell they're identical?
You got one of them "Star Drek: The Next Syndication" neutrino
scanners?
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Dreams and Degrees was Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 19
higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
Like others involved in scispace Mr Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture and I think hes soaking it up
fast I was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up Too bad I wound up in an
assemblyline job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day
How can you tell theyre identical
You got one of them Star Drek The Next Syndication neutrino
scanners
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Lines: 35
In <1993Apr3.233154.7045@Princeton.EDU> lije@cognito.Princeton.EDU (Elijah Millgram) writes:
>A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression "pushing
>the envelope" comes from. Anyone out there know?
Every aircraft has flight constraints for speed/AOA/power. When
graphed, these define the 'flight envelope' of that aircraft,
presumably so named because the graphed line encloses (envelopes) the
area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft
doesn't fall out of the sky. Hence, 'pushing the envelope' becomes
'operating at (or beyond) the edge of the flight (or operational)
envelope'.
Note that the envelope isn't precisely known until someone actually
flies the airplane in those regions -- up to that point, all there are
are the theoretical predictions. Hence, one of the things test pilots
do for a living is 'push the envelope' to find out how close the
correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is -- in
essence, 'pushing back' the edges of the theoretical envelope to where
the airplane actually starts to fail to fly. Note, too, that this is
done is a quite calculated and careful way; flight tests are generally
carefully coreographed and just what is going to be 'pushed' and how
far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans,
such as the 'early' first flight of the F-16 during its high-speed
taxi tests).
I'm sure Mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
this process (and then some).
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re pushing the envelope
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution na
Lines 35
In 1993Apr32331547045PrincetonEDU lijecognitoPrincetonEDU Elijah Millgram writes
A friend of mine and I were wondering where the expression pushing
the envelope comes from Anyone out there know
Every aircraft has flight constraints for speedAOApower When
graphed these define the flight envelope of that aircraft
presumably so named because the graphed line encloses envelopes the
area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft
doesnt fall out of the sky Hence pushing the envelope becomes
operating at or beyond the edge of the flight or operational
envelope
Note that the envelope isnt precisely known until someone actually
flies the airplane in those regions up to that point all there are
are the theoretical predictions Hence one of the things test pilots
do for a living is push the envelope to find out how close the
correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is in
essence pushing back the edges of the theoretical envelope to where
the airplane actually starts to fail to fly Note too that this is
done is a quite calculated and careful way flight tests are generally
carefully coreographed and just what is going to be pushed and how
far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans
such as the early first flight of the F16 during its highspeed
taxi tests
Im sure Mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about
this process and then some
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson)
Subject: Re: Magellan Venus Maps (Thanks)
In-Reply-To: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov's message of 30 Mar 1993 00:34 UT
Lines: 14
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Thanks Ron and Peter for some very nice maps.
I have an advice though. You wrote that the maps were reduced to 256
colors. As far ad I understand JPEG pictures gets much better (and
the compressed files smaller) if you use the original 3 color 24 bit
data when converting to JPEG.
Thanks again,
--
Roland Karlsson SICS, PO Box 1263, S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN
Internet: roland@sics.se Tel: +46 8 752 15 40 Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Telex: 812 6154 7011 SICS Ttx: 2401-812 6154 7011=SICS
after prepro From rolandsicsse Roland Karlsson
Subject Re Magellan Venus Maps Thanks
InReplyTo baalkekelvinjplnasagovs message of 30 Mar 1993 0034 UT
Lines 14
Organization Swedish Institute of Computer Science Kista
Thanks Ron and Peter for some very nice maps
I have an advice though You wrote that the maps were reduced to 256
colors As far ad I understand JPEG pictures gets much better and
the compressed files smaller if you use the original 3 color 24 bit
data when converting to JPEG
Thanks again
Roland Karlsson SICS PO Box 1263 S164 28 KISTA SWEDEN
Internet rolandsicsse Tel 46 8 752 15 40 Fax 46 8 751 72 30
Telex 812 6154 7011 SICS Ttx 2401812 6154 7011SICS
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 20
In article <1ql6jiINN5df@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly. People
>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
>They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
>weren't going to waste their time repeating them. Sounds to me like no one
>knew, either. I looked in some books, but to no avail.
If the Anne Frank exhibit makes it to your small little world,
take an afternoon to go see it.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
werent going to waste their time repeating them Sounds to me like no one
knew either I looked in some books but to no avail
If the Anne Frank exhibit makes it to your small little world
take an afternoon to go see it
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Vandalizing the sky
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 50
yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
>>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
>>hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>>side of the booster rockets. Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
>>for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie.
>Well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct
>some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well. They pioneered
>this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA.
In fact, you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring NASA
altogether. The rocket is a commercial launch vechicle - a Conestoga flying
a COMET payload. NASA is simply the primary customer. I believe SDIO has a
small payload as well. The advertising space was sold by the owners of the
rocket, who can do whatever they darn well please with it. In addition, these
anonymous "observers" had no reason to be startled. The deal made Space News
at least twice.
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.
>>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense.
>>Is NASA really supporting this junk?
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip? How serious is this project? Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
I think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy
fit. The fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that
it has not yet been approved.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 50
yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie
Well if youre going to get upset with this you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA
In fact you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring NASA
altogether The rocket is a commercial launch vechicle a Conestoga flying
a COMET payload NASA is simply the primary customer I believe SDIO has a
small payload as well The advertising space was sold by the owners of the
rocket who can do whatever they darn well please with it In addition these
anonymous observers had no reason to be startled The deal made Space News
at least twice
Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit
NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense
Is NASA really supporting this junk
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip How serious is this project Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
I think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy
fit The fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that
it has not yet been approved
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of Thu, 22 Apr 1993 04:54:03 GMT
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Lines: 25
On Thu, 22 Apr 1993 04:54:03 GMT, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu said:
nsmca> So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but
nsmca> so was Wilbur and Orville Wright, and quite a few others..
This is a common misconception. There was nothing "off the wall"
about the Wright Brothers. They were in correspondance with a number
of other experimenters (Octave Chanute, Lillienthal, etc), they flew
models, they had a wind tunnel. In short, they were quite mainstream
and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community.
I suggest you read The Bishop's Boys or the biography by Harry Gates?
Combs? (I can never remember which it is--the guy that had the FBOs
and owned Learjet for a while). These are both in print and easily
obtainable. The Bishop's Boys is in trade paperback, even.
Even better would be the multi-volume set of the Wrights' writings,
but this is out of print, rare, and hideously expensive.
--
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot
after prepro From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of Thu 22 Apr 1993 045403 GMT
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
Lines 25
On Thu 22 Apr 1993 045403 GMT nsmcaauroraalaskaedu said
nsmca So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but
nsmca so was Wilbur and Orville Wright and quite a few others
This is a common misconception There was nothing off the wall
about the Wright Brothers They were in correspondance with a number
of other experimenters Octave Chanute Lillienthal etc they flew
models they had a wind tunnel In short they were quite mainstream
and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community
I suggest you read The Bishops Boys or the biography by Harry Gates
Combs I can never remember which it isthe guy that had the FBOs
and owned Learjet for a while These are both in print and easily
obtainable The Bishops Boys is in trade paperback even
Even better would be the multivolume set of the Wrights writings
but this is out of print rare and hideously expensive
Mary Shafer DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Of course I dont speak for NASA
A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all Unknown US fighter pilot
preprocess doc From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 16
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi
In <kmr4.1466.734160929@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> "Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
> contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
> reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
> --- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2
Does anybody have Bobby's post in which he said something like "I don't
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries. Maybe it's
atheists killing the female children"? It's my personal favorite!
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
after prepro From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 16
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi
In kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
Wait You just said that humans are rarely reasonable Doesnt that
contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and
reason This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false
Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 2
Does anybody have Bobbys post in which he said something like I dont
know why there are more men than women in islamic countries Maybe its
atheists killing the female children Its my personal favorite
Sami Aario Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros
preprocess doc From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: sci.skeptic.religion (Was: Why ALT.atheism?)
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: thug.sps.mot.com
In article <93103.071613J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>Standard groups (sci, soc, talk) must conform to stricter rules when being
>established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will
>cease to exist. These groups also reach more sites on USENET than alt
>groups. I already posted my opinion to mathew's suggestion, which was that
>alt.atheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from
>fundies, and "elevating" its status to a standard group (and consequently,
>the volume of such postings) could make it unreadable.
I tend to agree. I came here when it first started and watched it grow
from the roots on talk.religion.misc. It seemed to take a while for enough
atheists to come forward to get past the "Let's trash Xians" and such.
Now there's a stable core, and frankly there's a feeling that this is
_our_ group.
If we go mainstream, we're going to be in a lot more places. And every
fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find Jeesus! and
warn us that we're all going to Hell.
Want to see what we'll get? Go real alt.fan.brother-jed and imagine that
those imbecilic tirades will be here. All the time. Every other post.
I'm being selfish. I find I really learn a lot here and the S/N isn't too
bad. The Browns and the Boobys are a distraction, but they are few enough
that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them. But
I greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping
level of the Conners of the world.
Regards,
Dew
--
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637
after prepro From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re sciskepticreligion Was Why ALTatheism
Organization Motorola Inc AustinTX
Lines 33
NNTPPostingHost thugspsmotcom
In article 93103071613J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson writes
Standard groups sci soc talk must conform to stricter rules when being
established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will
cease to exist These groups also reach more sites on USENET than alt
groups I already posted my opinion to mathews suggestion which was that
altatheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from
fundies and elevating its status to a standard group and consequently
the volume of such postings could make it unreadable
I tend to agree I came here when it first started and watched it grow
from the roots on talkreligionmisc It seemed to take a while for enough
atheists to come forward to get past the Lets trash Xians and such
Now theres a stable core and frankly theres a feeling that this is
_our_ group
If we go mainstream were going to be in a lot more places And every
fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find Jeesus and
warn us that were all going to Hell
Want to see what well get Go real altfanbrotherjed and imagine that
those imbecilic tirades will be here All the time Every other post
Im being selfish I find I really learn a lot here and the SN isnt too
bad The Browns and the Boobys are a distraction but they are few enough
that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them But
I greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping
level of the Conners of the world
Regards
Dew
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637
preprocess doc From: Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: none
Lines: 51
In-reply-to: enzo@research.canon.oz.au's message of 20 Apr 93 22:36:55 GMT
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>Now, Space Marketing
>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>orbit. NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
How could this possibly be "environmental vandalism" when there is no
"environment" to vandalize up there?
Since the advertising "is just to help defray costs", it's certainly no
surprise that "the taxpayers would bear most of the expense". Sounds
like a good idea to me, since the taxpayers would bear _all_ of the
expense if they didn't do the advertising.
>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky?
Great idea, they should have done it long ago.
>What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness. Venus is visible during the day,
but nobody complains about that. Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if
it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky.
>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
No doubt. People are always looking for something to protest about, so
it would be no surprise.
>Really, really depressed.
Well, look on the, er, bright side. Imagine the looks on the faces of
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D
--
Jeff Cook Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.com
after prepro From JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization none
Lines 51
Inreplyto enzoresearchcanonozaus message of 20 Apr 93 223655 GMT
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
How could this possibly be environmental vandalism when there is no
environment to vandalize up there
Since the advertising is just to help defray costs its certainly no
surprise that the taxpayers would bear most of the expense Sounds
like a good idea to me since the taxpayers would bear _all_ of the
expense if they didnt do the advertising
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky
Great idea they should have done it long ago
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that Besides its in LEO so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if
it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
No doubt People are always looking for something to protest about so
it would be no surprise
Really really depressed
Well look on the er bright side Imagine the looks on the faces of
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D
Jeff Cook JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRcom
preprocess doc From: moroney@world.std.com (Michael Moroney)
Subject: Re: Vulcan? (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 21
victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking) writes:
>Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
>
>All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
>drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's
>orbit. Beyond that, I have no other info.
>Does anyone know anything more specific?
>(Yes, this happened LONG before Star Trek and is apparently where they
>got the reference for the "guy with the ears".)
Yes, long before Star Trek. Before Einstein, in fact.
Vulcan as a planet inside Mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation
of Mercury's orbit that could not be explained by the known planets. But
Einstein's theory of relativity explained Mercury's motion, and analysis
of Mercury's motion now shows there are _not_ any planets inside its orbit.
-Mike
after prepro From moroneyworldstdcom Michael Moroney
Subject Re Vulcan No not the guy with the ears
Organization The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Lines 21
victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking writes
Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys
orbit Beyond that I have no other info
Does anyone know anything more specific
Yes this happened LONG before Star Trek and is apparently where they
got the reference for the guy with the ears
Yes long before Star Trek Before Einstein in fact
Vulcan as a planet inside Mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation
of Mercurys orbit that could not be explained by the known planets But
Einsteins theory of relativity explained Mercurys motion and analysis
of Mercurys motion now shows there are _not_ any planets inside its orbit
Mike
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek (Better Ideas)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr25.154449.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|
|Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
|lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space/time glitch..
|
|Maybe age Jemison a few years (makeup and such) and have her as the only
>survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost..
Of course that asumes the mission was able to launch :-)
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek Better Ideas
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr251544491auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Better idea for use of NASA Shuttle Astronauts and Crew is have them be found
lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other spacetime glitch
Maybe age Jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only
survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost
Of course that asumes the mission was able to launch
preprocess doc From: phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser)
Subject: Double sonic booms.
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: luma.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 16
Every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic
booms. Having taken various relevant classes, I have several ideas of where
they come from, but none of them are very convincing. Exactly what causes
them? Are they a one time pheneomenon, or a constant one like the supersonic
shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane, but you hear only when it
goes over you?
---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Carlos G. Niederstrasser | Only two things are infinite, |
| Princeton Planetary Society | the universe and human |
| | stupidity, and I'm not sure |
| | about the former. - Einstein |
| carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------|
| space@phoenix.princeton.edu | Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser
Subject Double sonic booms
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost lumaprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 16
Every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic
booms Having taken various relevant classes I have several ideas of where
they come from but none of them are very convincing Exactly what causes
them Are they a one time pheneomenon or a constant one like the supersonic
shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane but you hear only when it
goes over you
Carlos G Niederstrasser Only two things are infinite
Princeton Planetary Society the universe and human
stupidity and Im not sure
about the former Einstein
carlosnphoenixprincetonedu
spacephoenixprincetonedu Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra
preprocess doc From: Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5JHBp.55w@portal.hq.videocart.com>
Excerpts from netnews.alt.atheism: 15-Apr-93 Re: thoughts on christians
by Dave Fuller@portal.hq.vi
> I'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and WORST
> OF ALL . . . . respected more than atheists. There must be an end
> in sight.
>
I think it'd help if we got a couple good atheists (or even some good,
steadfast agnostics) in some high political offices. When was the last
time we had an (openly) atheist president? Have we ever? (I don't
actually know; these aren't rhetorical questions.) How 'bout some
Supreme court justices?
One thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news
program on a local station...The promo said something like "Who are
these cults, and why do they prey on the young?" Ahem. EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH? If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
is...
I used to be (ack, barf) a Catholic, and was even confirmed...Shortly
thereafter I decided it was a load of BS. My mom, who really insisted
that I continue to go to church, felt it was her duty (!) to bring me up
as a believer! That was one of the more presumptuous things I've heard
in my life. I suggested we go talk to the priest, and she agreed. The
priest was amazingly cool about it...He basically said that if I didn't
believe it, there was no good in forcing it on me. Actually, I guess he
wasn't amazingly cool about it--His response is what you'd hope for
(indeed, expect) from a human being. I s'pose I just _didn't_ expect
it...
I find it absurd that religion exists; Yet, I can also see its
usefulness to people. Facing up to the fact that you're just going to
be worm food in a few decades, and that there isn't some cosmic purpose
to humanity and the universe, can be pretty difficult for some people.
Having a readily-available, pre-digested solution to this is pretty
attractive, if you're either a) gullible enough, b) willing to suspend
your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind, or c) have had the stuff
rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember. Religion in
general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses; Organized
religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control.
Blech.
Chris
----------------------
Chris Leger
Sophomore, Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always
ignore them!
after prepro From Patrick C Leger
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Sophomore Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost po3andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
Excerpts from netnewsaltatheism 15Apr93 Re thoughts on christians
by Dave Fullerportalhqvi
Im sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and WORST
OF ALL respected more than atheists There must be an end
in sight
I think itd help if we got a couple good atheists or even some good
steadfast agnostics in some high political offices When was the last
time we had an openly atheist president Have we ever I dont
actually know these arent rhetorical questions How bout some
Supreme court justices
One thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news
program on a local stationThe promo said something like Who are
these cults and why do they prey on the young Ahem EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is
I used to be ack barf a Catholic and was even confirmedShortly
thereafter I decided it was a load of BS My mom who really insisted
that I continue to go to church felt it was her duty to bring me up
as a believer That was one of the more presumptuous things Ive heard
in my life I suggested we go talk to the priest and she agreed The
priest was amazingly cool about itHe basically said that if I didnt
believe it there was no good in forcing it on me Actually I guess he
wasnt amazingly cool about itHis response is what youd hope for
indeed expect from a human being I spose I just _didnt_ expect
it
I find it absurd that religion exists Yet I can also see its
usefulness to people Facing up to the fact that youre just going to
be worm food in a few decades and that there isnt some cosmic purpose
to humanity and the universe can be pretty difficult for some people
Having a readilyavailable predigested solution to this is pretty
attractive if youre either a gullible enough b willing to suspend
your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind or c have had the stuff
rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember Religion in
general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses Organized
religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control
Blech
Chris
Chris Leger
Sophomore Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Rememberif you dont like what somebody is saying you can always
ignore them
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 117
In article <16BB112949.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <115287@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>>>>A brutal system filtered through "leniency" is not lenient.
>>>>Huh?
>>>How do you rate public floggings or floggings at all? Chopping off the
>>>hands, heads, or other body parts? What about stoning?
>>I don't have a problem with floggings, particularly, when the offenders
>>have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are
>>given. I do have a problem with maiming in general, by whatever means.
>>In my opinion no-one who has not maimed another should be maimed. In
>>the case of rape the victim _is_ maimed, physically and emotionally,
>>so I wouldn't have a problem with maiming rapists. Obviously I wouldn't
>>have a problem with maiming murderers either.
>May I ask if you had the same opinion before you became a Muslim?
Sure. Yes, I did. You see I don't think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly. You, being so interested in leniency for
leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be
told the "did a _bad_ thing."
>And what about the simple chance of misjudgements?
Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible.
I suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement
of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely.
>>>>>>"Orient" is not a place having a single character. Your ignorance
>>>>>>exposes itself nicely here.
>>>>>Read carefully, I have not said all the Orient shows primitive machism.
>>>>Well then, why not use more specific words than "Orient"? Probably
>>>>because in your mind there is no need to (it's all the same).
>>>Because it contains sufficient information. While more detail is possible,
>>>it is not necessary.
>>And Europe shows civilized bullshit. This is bullshit. Time to put out
>>or shut up. You've substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like
>>"Islamists" who talk about the West as the "Great Satan." You're both
>>guilty of stupidities.
>I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
>not to call each others names. In this case, to substantiate it: The Quran
>allows that one beATs one's wife into submission.
Really? Care to give chapter and verse? We could discuss it.
>Primitive Machism refers to
>that. (I have misspelt that before, my fault).
Again, not all of the Orient follows the Qur'an. So you'll have to do
better than that.
Sorry, you haven't "put out" enough.
>>>Islam expresses extramarital sex. Extramarital sex is a subset of sex. It is
>>>suppressedin Islam. That marial sexis allowed or encouraged in Islam, as
>>>it is in many branches of Christianity, too, misses the point.
>>>Read the part about the urge for sex again. Religions that run around telling
>>>people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons: Suppressing
>>>a strong urge needs strong measures, and it is not their business anyway.
>>Believe what you wish. I thought you were trying to make an argument.
>>All I am reading are opinions.
>It is an argument. That you doubt the validity of the premises does not change
>it. If you want to criticize it, do so. Time for you to put up or shut up.
This is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress
sex. A such it's an irrelevant argument.
If you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
fine. My response is then: you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments").
The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it. If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 117
In article 16BB112949I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 115287buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
A brutal system filtered through leniency is not lenient
Huh
How do you rate public floggings or floggings at all Chopping off the
hands heads or other body parts What about stoning
I dont have a problem with floggings particularly when the offenders
have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are
given I do have a problem with maiming in general by whatever means
In my opinion noone who has not maimed another should be maimed In
the case of rape the victim _is_ maimed physically and emotionally
so I wouldnt have a problem with maiming rapists Obviously I wouldnt
have a problem with maiming murderers either
May I ask if you had the same opinion before you became a Muslim
Sure Yes I did You see I dont think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly You being so interested in leniency for
leniencys sake apparently think that people should simply be
told the did a _bad_ thing
And what about the simple chance of misjudgements
Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible
I suspect that its pretty unlikely that given my requirement
of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely
Orient is not a place having a single character Your ignorance
exposes itself nicely here
Read carefully I have not said all the Orient shows primitive machism
Well then why not use more specific words than Orient Probably
because in your mind there is no need to its all the same
Because it contains sufficient information While more detail is possible
it is not necessary
And Europe shows civilized bullshit This is bullshit Time to put out
or shut up Youve substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like
Islamists who talk about the West as the Great Satan Youre both
guilty of stupidities
I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
not to call each others names In this case to substantiate it The Quran
allows that one beATs ones wife into submission
Really Care to give chapter and verse We could discuss it
Primitive Machism refers to
that I have misspelt that before my fault
Again not all of the Orient follows the Quran So youll have to do
better than that
Sorry you havent put out enough
Islam expresses extramarital sex Extramarital sex is a subset of sex It is
suppressedin Islam That marial sexis allowed or encouraged in Islam as
it is in many branches of Christianity too misses the point
Read the part about the urge for sex again Religions that run around telling
people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons Suppressing
a strong urge needs strong measures and it is not their business anyway
Believe what you wish I thought you were trying to make an argument
All I am reading are opinions
It is an argument That you doubt the validity of the premises does not change
it If you want to criticize it do so Time for you to put up or shut up
This is an argument for why _you_ dont like religions that suppress
sex A such its an irrelevant argument
If youd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
fine My response is then you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments
The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner
Gregg
preprocess doc From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 20
sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:
> Allen, sometimes I think you're OK. And sometimes you tend to rashly leap in
> making statement without thinking them out.
>
> Wanna guess which today?
>
> You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
> of a private Titan pad?
Doug-- Actually, if memory serves, the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old
Titan ICBM. If so, there's probably quite a few old pads, albeit in need
of some serious reconditioning. Still, Being able to buy the turf and
pad (and bunkers, including prep facility) at Midwest farmland prices
strikes me as pretty damned cheap.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael - dante@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
after prepro From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 20
sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes
Allen sometimes I think youre OK And sometimes you tend to rashly leap in
making statement without thinking them out
Wanna guess which today
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Doug Actually if memory serves the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old
Titan ICBM If so theres probably quite a few old pads albeit in need
of some serious reconditioning Still Being able to buy the turf and
pad and bunkers including prep facility at Midwest farmland prices
strikes me as pretty damned cheap
Charlie Prael danteshakalacom
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
preprocess doc From: pmolloy@microwave.msfc.nasa.gov (G. Patrick Molloy)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Nntp-Posting-Host: 128.158.30.103
Reply-To: pmolloy@microwave.msfc.nasa.gov (G. Patrick Molloy)
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Lines: 40
In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
writes:
> Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
> exploration.
>
> Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
> You think this is crazy. Well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality.
>
> There is a billin the congress to do just that.. Basically to make it so
> expensive to mine minerals in the US, unless you can by off the inspectors or
> tax collectors.. ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends
> of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of
> the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there
> normal taxes. So by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and
> other expenses you can owe more than what you made.
> BAsically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe
> 600.00 in federal taxes.. Bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. And
> the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks..
>
> Basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go
> cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
> eco-freaks or the protectionist..
> Such fun we have in these interesting times..
>
> ==
> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
The current mining regulations and fees were set in the 1800's!
What the so-called "eco-freaks" want to do is to simply bring those
fees in line with current economic reality. Currently, mining companies
can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices --
something like $50! The mining lobby has for decades managed to block
any reform of these outdated fees. In fact, the latest attempt to reform
them was again blocked -- President Clinton "compromised" by taking the
mining fee reforms out of his '94 budget, and plans to draft separate
legislation to fight that battle.
If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you take this to talk.environment.
G. Patrick Molloy
Huntsville, Alabama
after prepro From pmolloymicrowavemsfcnasagov G Patrick Molloy
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
NntpPostingHost 12815830103
ReplyTo pmolloymicrowavemsfcnasagov G Patrick Molloy
Organization NASAMSFC
Lines 40
In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
writes
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration
Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
You think this is crazy Well in a way it is but in a way it is reality
There is a billin the congress to do just that Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends
of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there
normal taxes So by the time you get done paying for materials workers and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made
BAsically if you make a 100000 and spend 500 ofor expenses you can owe
60000 in federal taxes Bascially it is driving the miners off the land And
the only peopel who benefit are the ecofreaks
Basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
ecofreaks or the protectionist
Such fun we have in these interesting times
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
The current mining regulations and fees were set in the 1800s
What the socalled ecofreaks want to do is to simply bring those
fees in line with current economic reality Currently mining companies
can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices
something like 50 The mining lobby has for decades managed to block
any reform of these outdated fees In fact the latest attempt to reform
them was again blocked President Clinton compromised by taking the
mining fee reforms out of his 94 budget and plans to draft separate
legislation to fight that battle
If you want to discuss this further I suggest you take this to talkenvironment
G Patrick Molloy
Huntsville Alabama
preprocess doc From: aa429@freenet.carleton.ca (Terry Ford)
Subject: A flawed propulsion system: Space Shuttle
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13
For an essay, I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better
propulsion system. Through research, I have found that it is rather clumsy
(i.e. all the checks/tests before launch), the safety hazards ("sitting
on a hydrogen bomb"), etc.. If you have any beefs about the current
space shuttle program Re: propulsion, please send me your ideas.
Thanks a lot.
--
Terry Ford [aa429@freenet.carleton.ca]
Nepean, Ontario, Canada.
after prepro From aa429freenetcarletonca Terry Ford
Subject A flawed propulsion system Space Shuttle
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13
For an essay I am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better
propulsion system Through research I have found that it is rather clumsy
ie all the checkstests before launch the safety hazards sitting
on a hydrogen bomb etc If you have any beefs about the current
space shuttle program Re propulsion please send me your ideas
Thanks a lot
Terry Ford [aa429freenetcarletonca]
Nepean Ontario Canada
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 14/15 - How to Become an Astronaut
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.astronaut_733694515
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:01:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 313
Supersedes: <astronaut_730956661@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Archive-name: space/astronaut
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:02 $
HOW TO BECOME AN ASTRONAUT
First the short form, authored by Henry Spencer, then an official NASA
announcement.
Q. How do I become an astronaut?
A. We will assume you mean a NASA astronaut, since it's probably
impossible for a non-Russian to get into the cosmonaut corps (paying
passengers are not professional cosmonauts), and the other nations have
so few astronauts (and fly even fewer) that you're better off hoping to
win a lottery. Becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fast-jet
experience, which means a military flying career; forget that unless you
want to do it anyway. So you want to become a shuttle "mission
specialist".
If you aren't a US citizen, become one; that is a must. After that,
the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly
exceeds the supply. NASA's problem is not finding qualified people,
but thinning the lineup down to manageable length. It is not enough
to be qualified; you must avoid being *dis*qualified for any reason,
many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job.
Get a Ph.D. Specialize in something that involves getting your hands
dirty with equipment, not just paper and pencil. Forget computer
programming entirely; it will be done from the ground for the fore-
seeable future. Degree(s) in one field plus work experience in
another seems to be a frequent winner.
Be in good physical condition, with good eyesight. (DO NOT get a
radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision; nobody knows
what sudden pressure changes would do to RKed eyes, and long-term
effects are poorly understood. For that matter, avoid any other
significant medical unknowns.) If you can pass a jet-pilot physical,
you should be okay; if you can't, your chances are poor.
Practise public speaking, and be conservative and conformist in
appearance and actions; you've got a tough selling job ahead, trying
to convince a cautious, conservative selection committee that you
are better than hundreds of other applicants. (And, also, that you
will be a credit to NASA after you are hired: public relations is
a significant part of the job, and NASA's image is very prim and
proper.) The image you want is squeaky-clean workaholic yuppie.
Remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point,
and Security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent.
Keep your nose clean.
Get a pilot's license and make flying your number one hobby;
experienced pilots are known to be favored even for non-pilot jobs.
Work for NASA; of 45 astronauts selected between 1984 and 1988,
43 were military or NASA employees, and the remaining two were
a NASA consultant and Mae Jemison (the first black female astronaut).
If you apply from outside NASA and miss, but they offer you a job
at NASA, ***TAKE IT***; sometimes in the past this has meant "you
do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first".
Think space: they want highly motivated people, so lose no chance
to demonstrate motivation.
Keep trying. Many astronauts didn't make it the first time.
NASA
National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center
Houston, Texas
Announcement for Mission Specialist and Pilot Astronaut Candidates
==================================================================
Astronaut Candidate Program
---------------------------
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) has a need for
Pilot Astronaut Candidates and Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidates
to support the Space Shuttle Program. NASA is now accepting on a
continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed.
Persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be
considered.
All positions are located at the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in
Houston, Texas, and will involved a 1-year training and evaluation
program.
Space Shuttle Program Description
---------------------------------
The numerous successful flights of the Space Shuttle have demonstrated
that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming
routine. The Space Shuttle Orbiter is launched into, and maneuvers in
the Earth orbit performing missions lastling up to 30 days. It then
returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and
flight crew.
The Orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment
and retrieval of satellites, service of existing satellites, operation
of specialized laboratories (astronomy, earth sciences, materials
processing, manufacturing), and other operations. These missions will
eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space
station. The Orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher
orbits than can be achieved by the Orbiter itself. Users of the Space
Shuttle's capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include
government agencies and private industries.
The crew normally consists of five people - the commander, the pilot,
and three mission specialists. On occasion additional crew members are
assigned. The commander, pilot, and mission specialists are NASA
astronauts.
Pilot Astronaut
Pilot astronauts server as both Space Shuttle commanders and pilots.
During flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle,
crew, mission success and safety in flight. The pilot assists the
commander in controlling and operating the vehicle. In addition, the
pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing
the remote manipulator system, in extra-vehicular activities, and other
payload operations.
Mission Specialist Astronaut
Mission specialist astronauts, working with the commander and pilot,
have overall responsibility for the coordination of Shuttle operations
in the areas of crew activity planning, consumables usage, and
experiment and payload operations. Mission specialists are required to
have a detailed knowledge of Shuttle systems, as well as detailed
knowledge of the operational characteristics, mission requirements and
objectives, and supporting systems and equipment for each of the
experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions. Mission
specialists will perform extra-vehicular activities, payload handling
using the remote manipulator system, and perform or assist in specific
experimental operations.
Astronaut Candidate Program
===========================
Basic Qualification Requirements
--------------------------------
Applicants MUST meet the following minimum requirements prior to
submitting an application.
Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidate:
1. Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering,
biological science, physical science or mathematics. Degree must be
followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible,
professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable and may be
substituted for part or all of the experience requirement (master's
degree = 1 year, doctoral degree = 3 years). Quality of academic
preparation is important.
2. Ability to pass a NASA class II space physical, which is similar to a
civilian or military class II flight physical and includes the following
specific standards:
Distant visual acuity:
20/150 or better uncorrected,
correctable to 20/20, each eye.
Blood pressure:
140/90 measured in sitting position.
3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.
Pilot Astronaut Candidate:
1. Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution in engineering,
biological science, physical science or mathematics. Degree must be
followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible,
professional experience. An advanced degree is desirable. Quality of
academic preparation is important.
2. At least 1000 hours pilot-in-command time in jet aircraft. Flight
test experience highly desirable.
3. Ability to pass a NASA Class I space physical which is similar to a
military or civilian Class I flight physical and includes the following
specific standards:
Distant visual acuity:
20/50 or better uncorrected
correctable to 20/20, each eye.
Blood pressure:
140/90 measured in sitting position.
4. Height between 64 and 76 inches.
Citizenship Requirements
Applications for the Astronaut Candidate Program must be citizens of
the United States.
Note on Academic Requirements
Applicants for the Astronaut Candidate Program must meet the basic
education requirements for NASA engineering and scientific positions --
specifically: successful completion of standard professional curriculum
in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelor's
degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering,
biological science, physical science, or mathematics.
The following degree fields, while related to engineering and the
sciences, are not considered qualifying:
- Degrees in technology (Engineering Technology, Aviation Technology,
Medical Technology, etc.)
- Degrees in Psychology (except for Clinical Psychology, Physiological
Psychology, or Experimental Psychology which are qualifying).
- Degrees in Nursing.
- Degrees in social sciences (Geography, Anthropology, Archaeology, etc.)
- Degrees in Aviation, Aviation Management or similar fields.
Application Procedures
----------------------
Civilian
The application package may be obtained by writing to:
NASA Johnson Space Center
Astronaut Selection Office
ATTN: AHX
Houston, TX 77058
Civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis. When NASA
decides to select additional astronaut candidates, consideration will be
given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is
made. Applications received after that date will be retained and
considered for the next selection. Applicants will be notified annually
of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate
continued interest in being considered for the program. Those applicants
who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from
consideration, and their applications will not be retained. After the
preliminary screening of applications, additional information may be
requested for some applicants, and person listed on the application as
supervisors and references may be contacted.
Active Duty Military
Active duty military personnel must submit applications to their
respective military service and not directly to NASA. Application
procedures will be disseminated by each service.
Selection
---------
Personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required
for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration.
Once final selections have been made, all applicants who were considered
will be notified of the outcome of the process.
Selection rosters established through this process may be used for the
selection of additional candidates during a one year period following
their establishment.
General Program Requirements
Selected applicants will be designated Astronaut Candidates and will be
assigned to the Astronaut Office at the Johnson Space Center, Houston,
Texas. The astronaut candidates will undergo a 1 year training and
evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or
scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to
ongoing programs. They will also participate in the basic astronaut
training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills
required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight. Pilot
astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in NASA aircraft during
their candidate period.
Applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does
not insure selection as an astronaut. Final selection as an astronaut
will depend on satisfactory completion of the 1 year training and
evaluation period. Civilian candidates who successfully complete the
training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become
permanent Federal employees and will be expected to remain with NASA for
a period of at least five years. Civilian candidates who are not
selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within NASA
depending upon Agency requirements and manpower constraints at that
time. Successful military candidates will be detailed to NASA for a
specified tour of duty.
NASA has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified
minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates.
Therefore, qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply.
Pay and Benefits
----------------
Civilians
Salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the Federal
Governments General Schedule pay scales for grades GS-11 through GS-14,
and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements
and experience.
Other benefits include vacation and sick leave, a retirement plan, and
participation in group health and life insurance plans.
Military
Selected military personnel will be detailed to the Johnson Space Center
but will remain in an active duty status for pay, benefits, leave, and
other similar military matters.
NEXT: FAQ #15/15 - Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1415 How to Become an Astronaut
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csastronaut_733694515
Expires 6 May 1993 200155 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 313
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Archivename spaceastronaut
Lastmodified Date 930401 143902
HOW TO BECOME AN ASTRONAUT
First the short form authored by Henry Spencer then an official NASA
announcement
Q How do I become an astronaut
A We will assume you mean a NASA astronaut since its probably
impossible for a nonRussian to get into the cosmonaut corps paying
passengers are not professional cosmonauts and the other nations have
so few astronauts and fly even fewer that youre better off hoping to
win a lottery Becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fastjet
experience which means a military flying career forget that unless you
want to do it anyway So you want to become a shuttle mission
specialist
If you arent a US citizen become one that is a must After that
the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly
exceeds the supply NASAs problem is not finding qualified people
but thinning the lineup down to manageable length It is not enough
to be qualified you must avoid being disqualified for any reason
many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job
Get a PhD Specialize in something that involves getting your hands
dirty with equipment not just paper and pencil Forget computer
programming entirely it will be done from the ground for the fore
seeable future Degrees in one field plus work experience in
another seems to be a frequent winner
Be in good physical condition with good eyesight DO NOT get a
radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision nobody knows
what sudden pressure changes would do to RKed eyes and longterm
effects are poorly understood For that matter avoid any other
significant medical unknowns If you can pass a jetpilot physical
you should be okay if you cant your chances are poor
Practise public speaking and be conservative and conformist in
appearance and actions youve got a tough selling job ahead trying
to convince a cautious conservative selection committee that you
are better than hundreds of other applicants And also that you
will be a credit to NASA after you are hired public relations is
a significant part of the job and NASAs image is very prim and
proper The image you want is squeakyclean workaholic yuppie
Remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point
and Security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent
Keep your nose clean
Get a pilots license and make flying your number one hobby
experienced pilots are known to be favored even for nonpilot jobs
Work for NASA of 45 astronauts selected between 1984 and 1988
43 were military or NASA employees and the remaining two were
a NASA consultant and Mae Jemison the first black female astronaut
If you apply from outside NASA and miss but they offer you a job
at NASA TAKE IT sometimes in the past this has meant you
do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first
Think space they want highly motivated people so lose no chance
to demonstrate motivation
Keep trying Many astronauts didnt make it the first time
NASA
National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Lyndon B Johnson Space Center
Houston Texas
Announcement for Mission Specialist and Pilot Astronaut Candidates
Astronaut Candidate Program
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration NASA has a need for
Pilot Astronaut Candidates and Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidates
to support the Space Shuttle Program NASA is now accepting on a
continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed
Persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be
considered
All positions are located at the Lyndon B Johnson Space Center in
Houston Texas and will involved a 1year training and evaluation
program
Space Shuttle Program Description
The numerous successful flights of the Space Shuttle have demonstrated
that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming
routine The Space Shuttle Orbiter is launched into and maneuvers in
the Earth orbit performing missions lastling up to 30 days It then
returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and
flight crew
The Orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment
and retrieval of satellites service of existing satellites operation
of specialized laboratories astronomy earth sciences materials
processing manufacturing and other operations These missions will
eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space
station The Orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher
orbits than can be achieved by the Orbiter itself Users of the Space
Shuttles capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include
government agencies and private industries
The crew normally consists of five people the commander the pilot
and three mission specialists On occasion additional crew members are
assigned The commander pilot and mission specialists are NASA
astronauts
Pilot Astronaut
Pilot astronauts server as both Space Shuttle commanders and pilots
During flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle
crew mission success and safety in flight The pilot assists the
commander in controlling and operating the vehicle In addition the
pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing
the remote manipulator system in extravehicular activities and other
payload operations
Mission Specialist Astronaut
Mission specialist astronauts working with the commander and pilot
have overall responsibility for the coordination of Shuttle operations
in the areas of crew activity planning consumables usage and
experiment and payload operations Mission specialists are required to
have a detailed knowledge of Shuttle systems as well as detailed
knowledge of the operational characteristics mission requirements and
objectives and supporting systems and equipment for each of the
experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions Mission
specialists will perform extravehicular activities payload handling
using the remote manipulator system and perform or assist in specific
experimental operations
Astronaut Candidate Program
Basic Qualification Requirements
Applicants MUST meet the following minimum requirements prior to
submitting an application
Mission Specialist Astronaut Candidate
1 Bachelors degree from an accredited institution in engineering
biological science physical science or mathematics Degree must be
followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible
professional experience An advanced degree is desirable and may be
substituted for part or all of the experience requirement masters
degree 1 year doctoral degree 3 years Quality of academic
preparation is important
2 Ability to pass a NASA class II space physical which is similar to a
civilian or military class II flight physical and includes the following
specific standards
Distant visual acuity
20150 or better uncorrected
correctable to 2020 each eye
Blood pressure
14090 measured in sitting position
3 Height between 585 and 76 inches
Pilot Astronaut Candidate
1 Bachelors degree from an accredited institution in engineering
biological science physical science or mathematics Degree must be
followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible
professional experience An advanced degree is desirable Quality of
academic preparation is important
2 At least 1000 hours pilotincommand time in jet aircraft Flight
test experience highly desirable
3 Ability to pass a NASA Class I space physical which is similar to a
military or civilian Class I flight physical and includes the following
specific standards
Distant visual acuity
2050 or better uncorrected
correctable to 2020 each eye
Blood pressure
14090 measured in sitting position
4 Height between 64 and 76 inches
Citizenship Requirements
Applications for the Astronaut Candidate Program must be citizens of
the United States
Note on Academic Requirements
Applicants for the Astronaut Candidate Program must meet the basic
education requirements for NASA engineering and scientific positions
specifically successful completion of standard professional curriculum
in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelors
degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering
biological science physical science or mathematics
The following degree fields while related to engineering and the
sciences are not considered qualifying
Degrees in technology Engineering Technology Aviation Technology
Medical Technology etc
Degrees in Psychology except for Clinical Psychology Physiological
Psychology or Experimental Psychology which are qualifying
Degrees in Nursing
Degrees in social sciences Geography Anthropology Archaeology etc
Degrees in Aviation Aviation Management or similar fields
Application Procedures
Civilian
The application package may be obtained by writing to
NASA Johnson Space Center
Astronaut Selection Office
ATTN AHX
Houston TX 77058
Civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis When NASA
decides to select additional astronaut candidates consideration will be
given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is
made Applications received after that date will be retained and
considered for the next selection Applicants will be notified annually
of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate
continued interest in being considered for the program Those applicants
who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from
consideration and their applications will not be retained After the
preliminary screening of applications additional information may be
requested for some applicants and person listed on the application as
supervisors and references may be contacted
Active Duty Military
Active duty military personnel must submit applications to their
respective military service and not directly to NASA Application
procedures will be disseminated by each service
Selection
Personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required
for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration
Once final selections have been made all applicants who were considered
will be notified of the outcome of the process
Selection rosters established through this process may be used for the
selection of additional candidates during a one year period following
their establishment
General Program Requirements
Selected applicants will be designated Astronaut Candidates and will be
assigned to the Astronaut Office at the Johnson Space Center Houston
Texas The astronaut candidates will undergo a 1 year training and
evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or
scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to
ongoing programs They will also participate in the basic astronaut
training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills
required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight Pilot
astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in NASA aircraft during
their candidate period
Applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does
not insure selection as an astronaut Final selection as an astronaut
will depend on satisfactory completion of the 1 year training and
evaluation period Civilian candidates who successfully complete the
training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become
permanent Federal employees and will be expected to remain with NASA for
a period of at least five years Civilian candidates who are not
selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within NASA
depending upon Agency requirements and manpower constraints at that
time Successful military candidates will be detailed to NASA for a
specified tour of duty
NASA has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified
minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates
Therefore qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply
Pay and Benefits
Civilians
Salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the Federal
Governments General Schedule pay scales for grades GS11 through GS14
and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements
and experience
Other benefits include vacation and sick leave a retirement plan and
participation in group health and life insurance plans
Military
Selected military personnel will be detailed to the Johnson Space Center
but will remain in an active duty status for pay benefits leave and
other similar military matters
NEXT FAQ 1515 Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Moon Colony Prize Race! $6 billion total?
Lines: 26
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
I think if there is to be a prize and such.. There should be "classes"
such as the following:
Large Corp.
Small Corp/Company (based on reported earnings?)
Large Government (GNP and such)
Small Governemtn (or political clout or GNP?)
Large Organization (Planetary Society? and such?)
Small Organization (Alot of small orgs..)
The organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ??
Of course this means the prize might go up. Larger get more or ??
Basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class
winners..
More fair?
There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events,
umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it?).
Any other ideas??
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Moon Colony Prize Race 6 billion total
Lines 26
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
I think if there is to be a prize and such There should be classes
such as the following
Large Corp
Small CorpCompany based on reported earnings
Large Government GNP and such
Small Governemtn or political clout or GNP
Large Organization Planetary Society and such
Small Organization Alot of small orgs
The organization things would probably have to be nonprofit or liek
Of course this means the prize might go up Larger get more or
Basically make the prize total purse 6 billion divided amngst the class
winners
More fair
There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events
umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it
Any other ideas
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Reply-To: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines: 20
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
In article <1r2aii$ivs@access.digex.net>, prb@access (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>
>I don't know a whole lot on Proton, but given that it is a multi stage
>rocket, up to 4 stages, it may not really need the Centaur, plus
>it may end up seriously beating on said centaur.
The Proton has been used in 2, 3, and 4 stage versions. The two stage version
was used for the first 3 launches, while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used
today. The four stage version is used mostly for escape (and geosynchronous?)
orbits, while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits. Since this is
the version that launched Mir and the Salyuts (and the add-on modules for Mir),
as long as Centaur is smaller than Mir (which I believe it is), it should fit
under the shroud.
I vaguely recall that the Russians are developing a LH2/LOX upper stage for the
Proton.
--
Chris Jones clj@ksr.com
after prepro From cljksrcom Chris Jones
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
ReplyTo cljksrcom Chris Jones
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 20
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcom Pat
In article 1r2aiiivsaccessdigexnet prbaccess Pat writes
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
I dont know a whole lot on Proton but given that it is a multi stage
rocket up to 4 stages it may not really need the Centaur plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur
The Proton has been used in 2 3 and 4 stage versions The two stage version
was used for the first 3 launches while the 3 and 4 stage versions are used
today The four stage version is used mostly for escape and geosynchronous
orbits while the 3 stage version is used for low earth orbits Since this is
the version that launched Mir and the Salyuts and the addon modules for Mir
as long as Centaur is smaller than Mir which I believe it is it should fit
under the shroud
I vaguely recall that the Russians are developing a LH2LOX upper stage for the
Proton
Chris Jones cljksrcom
preprocess doc From: dragon@access.digex.com (Covert C Beach)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer Update - 03/29/93
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL
In article <1pcgaa$do1@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>Now isn't that always the kicker. It does seem stupid to drop
>a mission like Magellan, because there isn't 70 million a year
>to keep up the mission. You'd think that ongoing science could
>justify the money. JPL gets accused of spending more then neccessary,
>probably some validity in that, but NASA does put money into some
>things that really are Porcine. Oh well.
I attended a colloquium at Goddard last fall where the head of the
operations section of NASA was talking about what future missions
were going to be funded. I don't remember his name or title off hand
and I have discarded the colloquia announcement. In any case, he was
asked about that very matter: "Why can't we spend a few million more
to keep instruments that we already have in place going?"
His responce was that there are only so many $ available to him and
the lead time on an instrument like a COBE, Magellan, Hubble, etc
is 5-10 years minumum. If he spent all that could be spent on using
current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have
very little to nothing for future projects. If he did that, sure
in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular,
however starting a few years after he had retired he would become
one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not
funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments. Just
as he had benefited from his predicessor's funding choices, he owed it
to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new
missions, even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before
the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them.
--
Covert C Beach
dragon@access.digex.com
after prepro From dragonaccessdigexcom Covert C Beach
Subject Re Mars Observer Update 032993
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 33
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords Mars Observer JPL
In article 1pcgaado1accessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Now isnt that always the kicker It does seem stupid to drop
a mission like Magellan because there isnt 70 million a year
to keep up the mission Youd think that ongoing science could
justify the money JPL gets accused of spending more then neccessary
probably some validity in that but NASA does put money into some
things that really are Porcine Oh well
I attended a colloquium at Goddard last fall where the head of the
operations section of NASA was talking about what future missions
were going to be funded I dont remember his name or title off hand
and I have discarded the colloquia announcement In any case he was
asked about that very matter Why cant we spend a few million more
to keep instruments that we already have in place going
His responce was that there are only so many available to him and
the lead time on an instrument like a COBE Magellan Hubble etc
is 510 years minumum If he spent all that could be spent on using
current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have
very little to nothing for future projects If he did that sure
in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular
however starting a few years after he had retired he would become
one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not
funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments Just
as he had benefited from his predicessors funding choices he owed it
to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new
missions even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before
the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them
Covert C Beach
dragonaccessdigexcom
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins) writes:
>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
George.
It's called a democracy. The majority rules. sorry.
If ytou don't like it, I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies. The theory of government
here is that the majority rules, except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights. If you really are annoyed, get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone, where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone. Kind of like the national radio quiet zone. Did you
know about that? near teh Radio telescope observatory in West virginia,
they have a 90?????? mile EMCON zone. Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors, like air conditioners and Vacuums.
In practice, they use it mostly to control large radio users.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
George
Its called a democracy The majority rules sorry
If ytou dont like it I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies The theory of government
here is that the majority rules except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights If you really are annoyed get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone Kind of like the national radio quiet zone Did you
know about that near teh Radio telescope observatory in West virginia
they have a 90 mile EMCON zone Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors like air conditioners and Vacuums
In practice they use it mostly to control large radio users
pat
preprocess doc From: ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Keywords: Solar Sail
Organization: Rutherford Appleton Lab, UK
Lines: 79
In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu> snydefj@eng.auburn.edu writes:
>
>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails
I was at an interesting seminar at work (UK's R.A.L. Space Science
Dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project. The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project. I'll typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting. Here goes :
The Microlight Solar Sail
-------------------------
1. Introduction
The solar sail is a well-established concept. Harnessing the pressure of
sunlight, a spacecraft would have unlimited range. In principle, such a
vehicle could explore the whole Solar System with zero fuel consumption.
However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize. The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer. Deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized
fabric which would be necessary to transport a 'conventional' type
spacecraft is a daunting task. This is why, despite the potential of hte
idea, no such craft has actually been launched to date.
2.Design
Recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept: a
tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely
be electronics, with no mechanical parts. Several attitude control
methods are feasible: for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a
panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn.
The key components of the craft will be a minute CCD camera developed at
Edinburgh University which can act as both attitude sensor and data
gathering device; solar cells providing ~1 watt power for control and
communication; and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface
of the sail itself. Launched as a piggyback payload, the total cost of
the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars.
3.Missions
The craft would be capable of some ambitious missions. For example:
a) It could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the Apollo or Amor
groups. Closeup pictures could be transmitted back to Earth at a low bit
rate.
b) It could be steered into a lunar polar orbit. Previously unobserved
areas around the lunar poles could be viewed. By angling the sail to
reflect sunlight downwards, polar craters whose bases never receive
sunlight could be imaged. Bright reflections would confirm that
volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these
locations.[Immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar
base, BTW]
c) It could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet
nucleus. Impacting at low speed, a thin wire probe attached to the craft
causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharp-edged
tube, like performing a biopsy. Returning to Earth, the sail acts as an
ideal re-entry parachute: load per unit area 20 gm/m2 ensures that heat
is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed ~300
deg C. The material sample is recovered, enclosed in a small insulating
container.
Contact: Colin Jack Tel. 0865-200447
Oxford Mathematical Designs, 131 High Street, Oxford OX1 4DH, England
--------------------------------
This guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or
seeking details or anything, and would be most happy to send you more
information.
Andy
--
-----------------------------------
Andy Jonathan J. Broderick, | "I have come that they might have |
Rutherford Lab., UK | life, and have it to the full" |
Mail : ajjb@adam2.bnsc.rl.ac.uk | - Jesus Christ |
after prepro From ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Keywords Solar Sail
Organization Rutherford Appleton Lab UK
Lines 79
In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails
I was at an interesting seminar at work UKs RAL Space Science
Dept on this subject specifically on a smallscale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project Ill typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting Here goes
The Microlight Solar Sail
1 Introduction
The solar sail is a wellestablished concept Harnessing the pressure of
sunlight a spacecraft would have unlimited range In principle such a
vehicle could explore the whole Solar System with zero fuel consumption
However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer Deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized
fabric which would be necessary to transport a conventional type
spacecraft is a daunting task This is why despite the potential of hte
idea no such craft has actually been launched to date
2Design
Recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept a
tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely
be electronics with no mechanical parts Several attitude control
methods are feasible for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a
panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn
The key components of the craft will be a minute CCD camera developed at
Edinburgh University which can act as both attitude sensor and data
gathering device solar cells providing 1 watt power for control and
communication and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface
of the sail itself Launched as a piggyback payload the total cost of
the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars
3Missions
The craft would be capable of some ambitious missions For example
a It could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the Apollo or Amor
groups Closeup pictures could be transmitted back to Earth at a low bit
rate
b It could be steered into a lunar polar orbit Previously unobserved
areas around the lunar poles could be viewed By angling the sail to
reflect sunlight downwards polar craters whose bases never receive
sunlight could be imaged Bright reflections would confirm that
volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these
locations[Immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar
base BTW]
c It could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet
nucleus Impacting at low speed a thin wire probe attached to the craft
causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharpedged
tube like performing a biopsy Returning to Earth the sail acts as an
ideal reentry parachute load per unit area 20 gmm2 ensures that heat
is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed 300
deg C The material sample is recovered enclosed in a small insulating
container
Contact Colin Jack Tel 0865200447
Oxford Mathematical Designs 131 High Street Oxford OX1 4DH England
This guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or
seeking details or anything and would be most happy to send you more
information
Andy
Andy Jonathan J Broderick I have come that they might have
Rutherford Lab UK life and have it to the full
Mail ajjbadam2bnscrlacuk Jesus Christ
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Article-I.D.: news.C51rzx.AC3
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 34
nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
[Excellent discussion of DC-X landing techniques by Henry deleted]
>Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
The DC-X will not take of horizontally. It takes of vertically.
>Why do the Martian Landing thing..
For several reasons. Vertical landings don't require miles of runway and limit
noise pollution. They don't require wheels or wings. Just turn on the engines
and touch down. Of course, as Henry pointed out, vetical landings aren't quite
that simple.
>Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
>much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).
Well, to be blunt, yes. But at least you're learning.
>Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...
The Soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets
just before they hit the ground. Parachutes are, however, not especially
practical if you want to reuse something without much effort. The landings
are also not very comfortable. However, in the words of Georgy Grechko,
"I prefer to have bruises, not to sink."
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
seront capable de la realiser"
-Jules Verne
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
ArticleID newsC51rzxAC3
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 34
nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
[Excellent discussion of DCX landing techniques by Henry deleted]
Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way
The DCX will not take of horizontally It takes of vertically
Why do the Martian Landing thing
For several reasons Vertical landings dont require miles of runway and limit
noise pollution They dont require wheels or wings Just turn on the engines
and touch down Of course as Henry pointed out vetical landings arent quite
that simple
Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious
Well to be blunt yes But at least youre learning
Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts Parachute in then
The Soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets
just before they hit the ground Parachutes are however not especially
practical if you want to reuse something without much effort The landings
are also not very comfortable However in the words of Georgy Grechko
I prefer to have bruises not to sink
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
seront capable de la realiser
Jules Verne
preprocess doc From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Re: Had to share this
Organization: St. Andrews University, Scotland.
Lines: 66
In article <1993Apr03.232325.23178@acme.gen.nz> kilroy@acme.gen.nz (earthbound misfit, I) writes:
>bena@dec07.cs.monash.edu.au (Ben Aveling) writes:
>
>> Warning - if you are anything like a devout Christian this post is
>> really going to offend and/or upset you.
>
>[...numerous Ctrl-Ls deleted...hehehe...]
>
>> I assume everyone here is familiar with the Christian `fish' symbol.
>> The one on the back of all those Volvos.
>> The one that looks (something) like
>> __
>> / \/
>> \__/\
>>
>> Or perhaps more like () ?
>> '`
>>
>> Well, I found out this morning where it comes from ...
>>
>> It's been stolen from the pagans, like so much else ...
>>
>> (Last last chance to be blisfully ignorant ;-]
>>
>> Hmm, how can I put it.
>>
>> Well, it comes from, this ...
>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> \/
>> ()
>> `__-'`-__'
>>
>>
>>
>> Sigh, I hate drawing with ascii chars.
>> Still, I think you can work it out from there ...
>
>If you haven't, go read "Skinny Legs and All" by Tom Robbins. If he's even
>50% accurate then most of the modern religions have been "appropriated".
>It's also a great book.
>
>Followups to alt.atheism, whose readers are probably slightly more authorative
>on this.
>
> - k
>--
>Craig Harding kilroy@acme.gen.nz ACME BBS +64 6 3551342
>"Jub'er lbh pnyyvat n obmb?"
Craig-
I thought it was derived from a Greek acronym. My Greek isn't up to much, but
it goes something like this:
Jesus Christ, God => Iesus CHristos, THeos => Ichthos
which is the Greek for "fish" (as in, eg "ichthysaurus").
Apologies for my dreadful Greek! Perhaps someone will correct it.
By the way, what does your sig mean?
-Norman
after prepro From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Re Had to share this
Organization St Andrews University Scotland
Lines 66
In article 1993Apr0323232523178acmegennz kilroyacmegennz earthbound misfit I writes
benadec07csmonasheduau Ben Aveling writes
Warning if you are anything like a devout Christian this post is
really going to offend andor upset you
[numerous CtrlLs deletedhehehe]
I assume everyone here is familiar with the Christian `fish symbol
The one on the back of all those Volvos
The one that looks something like
__
\
\__\
Or perhaps more like
`
Well I found out this morning where it comes from
Its been stolen from the pagans like so much else
Last last chance to be blisfully ignorant ]
Hmm how can I put it
Well it comes from this
__
\
`__`__
Sigh I hate drawing with ascii chars
Still I think you can work it out from there
If you havent go read Skinny Legs and All by Tom Robbins If hes even
50 accurate then most of the modern religions have been appropriated
Its also a great book
Followups to altatheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative
on this
k
Craig Harding kilroyacmegennz ACME BBS 64 6 3551342
Juber lbh pnyyvat n obmb
Craig
I thought it was derived from a Greek acronym My Greek isnt up to much but
it goes something like this
Jesus Christ God Iesus CHristos THeos Ichthos
which is the Greek for fish as in eg ichthysaurus
Apologies for my dreadful Greek Perhaps someone will correct it
By the way what does your sig mean
Norman
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu>, schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.130503.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>|> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
>|> > With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
>|> > by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
>|> > that might just work.
>|> >
>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
>|> > Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
>|> > to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
>|> >
>|> > --
>|> > gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
>|> > theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
>|> ====
>|> If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
>|> resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
>|> in Australia..
>|> Anybody game for a contest!
>|>
>|> ==
>|> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
>
>
>Oh gee, a billion dollars! That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>feasability study! Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
>
Feasability study?? What a wimp!! While you are studying, others would be
doing. Too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering.
"He who sits on his arse sits on his fortune" - Sir Richard Francis Burton
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood. We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909 |
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Lines 42
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes
In article 1993Apr191305031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
in Australia
Anybody game for a contest
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Oh gee a billion dollars Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study Happy Happy JOY JOY
Feasability study What a wimp While you are studying others would be
doing Too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering
He who sits on his arse sits on his fortune Sir Richard Francis Burton
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood We need
pyronskndivdsegticom solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909
preprocess doc From: fleice_mike@tandem.com (Mike Fleice)
Subject: Last call: S/W wizard position at Tandem (Cupertino CA)
Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.252.132.77
Organization: Tandem Computers Incorporated, Cupertino, CA
Lines: 28
Well, we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting
responders. However, just in case the other posting was overlooked by an
incredibly talented person ... Mea Culpa for posting this here for Mike,
but we're looking for someone special:
Tandem Computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help
us architect & implement a fault-tolerant generalized instrumentation
subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel (TNS
Kernel). The TNS Kernel is a proprietary, loosely-coupled parallel,
message-based operating system. The TNS Kernel has wide connectivity
to open standards.
In this key individual contributor role, you will work with other
developers working on various components of the Transaction Management
Facility.
Your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories
(3 of 4 would be excellent):
Category 1. Math: Working knowledge of statistics, real analysis, as
used in experimental physics or chemistry, or in engineering.
Category 2. Working knowledge of telemetry issues-- i.e. time series,
autocorrelation, and statistical correlation of data streams.
Category 3. Integration & Test -- Instrumentation of systems under test,
i.e. payloads, flight modules, etc.
Category 4: Software Engineering: programming skills, algorithms, and
systems software techniques.
Please send your resume to Mike Fleice, Tandem Computers 10555
Ridgeview Ct., LOC 100-27, Cupertino, CA 95014-0789; Fax (408) 285-0813;
or e-mail fleice_mike@tandem.com
after prepro From fleice_miketandemcom Mike Fleice
Subject Last call SW wizard position at Tandem Cupertino CA
NntpPostingHost 13025213277
Organization Tandem Computers Incorporated Cupertino CA
Lines 28
Well we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting
responders However just in case the other posting was overlooked by an
incredibly talented person Mea Culpa for posting this here for Mike
but were looking for someone special
Tandem Computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help
us architect implement a faulttolerant generalized instrumentation
subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel TNS
Kernel The TNS Kernel is a proprietary looselycoupled parallel
messagebased operating system The TNS Kernel has wide connectivity
to open standards
In this key individual contributor role you will work with other
developers working on various components of the Transaction Management
Facility
Your background needs to encompass some of the following 4 categories
3 of 4 would be excellent
Category 1 Math Working knowledge of statistics real analysis as
used in experimental physics or chemistry or in engineering
Category 2 Working knowledge of telemetry issues ie time series
autocorrelation and statistical correlation of data streams
Category 3 Integration Test Instrumentation of systems under test
ie payloads flight modules etc
Category 4 Software Engineering programming skills algorithms and
systems software techniques
Please send your resume to Mike Fleice Tandem Computers 10555
Ridgeview Ct LOC 10027 Cupertino CA 950140789 Fax 408 2850813
or email fleice_miketandemcom
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 5
The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
finished writing a sequel to the Bible.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 5
The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible
mathew
preprocess doc cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
<930401.112329.0u1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> <11710@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
Lines: 17
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
> And in the US, even that argument doesn't stand. It costs far
> more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed,
> clothe, and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life.
> Some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system. I
> find it to be one of it's greatest virtues.
I assume that you are talking about the appeals processes, etc.?
Well, it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life
will also tend to appeal (though not quite as much in the "final
hours."
Anyway, economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose
the punishment.
keith
after prepro csutexaseduuunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re 11710viceICOTEKCOM
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
Lines 17
bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
And in the US even that argument doesnt stand It costs far
more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed
clothe and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life
Some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system I
find it to be one of its greatest virtues
I assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc
Well it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life
will also tend to appeal though not quite as much in the final
hours
Anyway economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose
the punishment
keith
preprocess doc From: nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Lines: 13
jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.
I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB. No more info as to the location in the SRB.
I agree, pretty weird.
after prepro From nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Organization Evans Sutherland Computer Corp
Lines 13
jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case
I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB No more info as to the location in the SRB
I agree pretty weird
preprocess doc From: (Rashid)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 47.252.4.179
Organization: NH
Lines: 34
> What about the Twelve Imams, who he considered incapable of error
> or sin? Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans. This is
> heresy for the very reasons I gave above.
I would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 Imams with you, although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup. I feel a philosophy
or religion group would be more appropriate. The topic is deeply
embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet (S.A.). Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally (if at all) concerned with the metaphysical
substance of man's being and nature.
A good introductory book (in fact one of the best introductory
books to Islam in general) is Murtaza Mutahhari's "Fundamental's
of Islamic Thought - God, Man, and the Universe" - Mizan Press,
translated by R. Campbell. Truly a beautiful book. A follow-up book
(if you can find a decent translation) is "Wilaya - The Station
of the Master" by the same author. I think it also goes under the
title of "Master and Mastership" - It's a very small book - really
just a transcription of a lecture by the author.
The introduction to the beautiful "Psalms of Islam" - translated
by William C. Chittick (available through Muhammadi Trust of
Great Britain) is also an excellent introduction to the subject. We
have these books in our University library - I imagine any well
stocked University library will have them.
From your posts, you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought. You
should seek to know Shi'ite thought through knowledgeable
Shi'ite authors as well - at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled.
As salaam a-laikum
after prepro From Rashid
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost 472524179
Organization NH
Lines 34
What about the Twelve Imams who he considered incapable of error
or sin Khomeini supports this view of the Twelve Imans This is
heresy for the very reasons I gave above
I would be happy to discuss the issue of the 12 Imams with you although
my preference would be to move the discussion to another
newsgroup I feel a philosophy
or religion group would be more appropriate The topic is deeply
embedded in the world view of Islam and the
esoteric teachings of the Prophet SA Heresy does not enter
into it at all except for those who see Islam only as an exoteric
religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical
substance of mans being and nature
A good introductory book in fact one of the best introductory
books to Islam in general is Murtaza Mutahharis Fundamentals
of Islamic Thought God Man and the Universe Mizan Press
translated by R Campbell Truly a beautiful book A followup book
if you can find a decent translation is Wilaya The Station
of the Master by the same author I think it also goes under the
title of Master and Mastership Its a very small book really
just a transcription of a lecture by the author
The introduction to the beautiful Psalms of Islam translated
by William C Chittick available through Muhammadi Trust of
Great Britain is also an excellent introduction to the subject We
have these books in our University library I imagine any well
stocked University library will have them
From your posts you seem fairly well versed in Sunni thought You
should seek to know Shiite thought through knowledgeable
Shiite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the
charge of heresy is levelled
As salaam alaikum
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
>"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.
That's right. Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though. Perhaps
our goal is one of self-actualization.
>But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
>term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
>other species, either terrestrial or alien.
Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. This
was not part of the original premise.
>Does that make it moral to do so?
Which type of morality are you talking about? In a natural sense, it
is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
adversely affect your own, I guess).
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive
Thats right Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though Perhaps
our goal is one of selfactualization
But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
other species either terrestrial or alien
Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me This
was not part of the original premise
Does that make it moral to do so
Which type of morality are you talking about In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
keith
preprocess doc From: buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke)
Subject: DC-X Rollout Report
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 124
McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X
HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. -- On a picture-perfect Southern
California day, McDonnell Douglas rolled out its DC-X rocket ship last
Saturday. The company hopes this single-stage rocket technology
demonstrator will be the first step towards a single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO)
rocket ship.
The white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico this week. Flight tests will start in
mid-June.
Although there wasn't a cloud in the noonday sky, the forecast for
SSTO research remains cloudy. The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
follow-on vehicle. To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
a sub-orbital DC-XA, SDIO is passing a tin cup among its sister government
agencies.
SDIO originally funded SSTO research as a way to cut the costs for
orbital deployments of space-based sensors and weapns. However, recent
changes in SDI's political marching orders and budget cuts have made SSTO
less of a priority. Today, the agency is more interested in using DC-X as
a step towards a low-cost, reusable sounding rocket.
SDIO has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies,
said Col. Simon "Pete" Worden, SDIO's deputy for technology. But Worden
declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the
program. "I didn't make colonel by telling my contractors how much money I
have available to spend," he quipped at a press conference at McDonnell
Douglas Astronautics headquarters.
While SDIO has lowered its sights on the program's orbital
objective, agency officials hail the DC-X as an example of the "better,
faster, cheaper" approach to hardware development. The agency believes
this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that "leapfrog" ahead of
evolutionary technology developments.
Worden said the DC-X illustrates how a "build a little, test a
little" approach can produce results on time and within budget. He said
the program -- which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months --
showed how today's engineers could move beyond the "miracles of our
parents' time."
"The key is management," Worden said. "SDIO had a very light hand
on this project. We had only one overworked major, Jess Sponable."
Although the next phase may involve more agencies, Worden said
lean management and a sense of government-industry partnership will be
crucial. "It's essential we do not end up with a large management
structure where the price goes up exponentially."
SDIO's approach also won praise from two California members of the
House Science, Space and Technology Committee. "This is the direction
we're going to have to go," said Rep. George Brown, the committee's
Democratic chairman. "Programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years aren't
sustainable....NASA hasn't learned it yet. SDIO has."
Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, Brown's Republican colleague, went further.
Joking that "a shrimp is a fish designed by a NASA design team,"
Rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it
were left to the civil space agency.
Rohrbacher, whose Orange County district includes McDonnell
Douglas, also criticized NASA-Air Force work on conventional, multi-staged
rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology. "Let's not
build fancy ammunition with capsules on top. Let's build a spaceship!"
Although Rohrbacher praised SDIO's sponsorship, he said the
private sector needs to take the lead in developing SSTO technology.
McDonnell Douglas, which faces very uncertain prospects with its
C-17 transport and Space Station Freedom programs, were more cautious
about a large private secotro commitment. "On very large ventures,
companies put in seed money," said Charles Ordahl, McDonnell Douglas'
senior vice president for space systems. "You need strong government
investments."
While the government and industry continue to differ on funding
for the DC-XA, they agree on continuing an incremental approach to
development. Citing corporate history, they liken the process to Douglas
Aircraft's DC aircraft. Just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for
the DC-3 transport, a gradual evolution in single-stage rocketry could
eventually lead to an orbital Delta Clipper (DC-1).
Flight tests this summer at White Sands will "expand the envelope"
of performance, with successive tests increasing speed and altitude. The
first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering, verticle
take-off and landing. The second series will send the unmanned DC-X up to
5,000 feet. The third and final series will take the craft up to 20,000
feet.
Maneuvers will become more complex on third phase. The final
tests will include a "pitch-over" manever that rotates the vehicle back
into a bottom-down configuration for a soft, four-legged landing.
The flight test series will be supervised by Charles "Pete"
Conrad, who performed similar maneuvers on the Apollo 12 moon landing.
Now a McDonnell Douglas vice president, Conrad paised the vehicles
aircraft-like approach to operations. Features include automated
check-out and access panels for easy maintainance.
If the program moves to the next stage, engine technology will
become a key consideration. This engine would have more thrust than the
Pratt & Whitney RL10A-5 engines used on the DC-X. Each motor uses liquid
hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14,760 pounds of
thrust
Based on the engine used in Centaur upper stages, the A-5 model
has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and three-to-on
throttling capability. It also is designed for repeat firings and rapid
turnaround.
Worden said future single-stage rockets could employ
tri-propellant engine technology developed in the former Soviet Union.
The resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and
then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes.
The mechanism for the teaming may already be in place. Pratt has
a technology agreement with NPO Energomash, the design bureau responsible
for the tri-propellant and Energia cryogenic engines.
after prepro From buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke
Subject DCX Rollout Report
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 124
McDonnell Douglas rolls out DCX
HUNTINGTON BEACH Calif On a pictureperfect Southern
California day McDonnell Douglas rolled out its DCX rocket ship last
Saturday The company hopes this singlestage rocket technology
demonstrator will be the first step towards a singlestagetoorbit SSTO
rocket ship
The white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico this week Flight tests will start in
midJune
Although there wasnt a cloud in the noonday sky the forecast for
SSTO research remains cloudy The SDI Organization which paid 60
million for the DCX cant itself afford to fund full development of a
followon vehicle To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
a suborbital DCXA SDIO is passing a tin cup among its sister government
agencies
SDIO originally funded SSTO research as a way to cut the costs for
orbital deployments of spacebased sensors and weapns However recent
changes in SDIs political marching orders and budget cuts have made SSTO
less of a priority Today the agency is more interested in using DCX as
a step towards a lowcost reusable sounding rocket
SDIO has already done 50 briefings to other government agencies
said Col Simon Pete Worden SDIOs deputy for technology But Worden
declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the
program I didnt make colonel by telling my contractors how much money I
have available to spend he quipped at a press conference at McDonnell
Douglas Astronautics headquarters
While SDIO has lowered its sights on the programs orbital
objective agency officials hail the DCX as an example of the better
faster cheaper approach to hardware development The agency believes
this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that leapfrog ahead of
evolutionary technology developments
Worden said the DCX illustrates how a build a little test a
little approach can produce results on time and within budget He said
the program which went from concept to hardware in around 18 months
showed how todays engineers could move beyond the miracles of our
parents time
The key is management Worden said SDIO had a very light hand
on this project We had only one overworked major Jess Sponable
Although the next phase may involve more agencies Worden said
lean management and a sense of governmentindustry partnership will be
crucial Its essential we do not end up with a large management
structure where the price goes up exponentially
SDIOs approach also won praise from two California members of the
House Science Space and Technology Committee This is the direction
were going to have to go said Rep George Brown the committees
Democratic chairman Programs that stretch aout 10 to 15 years arent
sustainableNASA hasnt learned it yet SDIO has
Rep Dana Rohrbacher Browns Republican colleague went further
Joking that a shrimp is a fish designed by a NASA design team
Rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it
were left to the civil space agency
Rohrbacher whose Orange County district includes McDonnell
Douglas also criticized NASAAir Force work on conventional multistaged
rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology Lets not
build fancy ammunition with capsules on top Lets build a spaceship
Although Rohrbacher praised SDIOs sponsorship he said the
private sector needs to take the lead in developing SSTO technology
McDonnell Douglas which faces very uncertain prospects with its
C17 transport and Space Station Freedom programs were more cautious
about a large private secotro commitment On very large ventures
companies put in seed money said Charles Ordahl McDonnell Douglas
senior vice president for space systems You need strong government
investments
While the government and industry continue to differ on funding
for the DCXA they agree on continuing an incremental approach to
development Citing corporate history they liken the process to Douglas
Aircrafts DC aircraft Just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for
the DC3 transport a gradual evolution in singlestage rocketry could
eventually lead to an orbital Delta Clipper DC1
Flight tests this summer at White Sands will expand the envelope
of performance with successive tests increasing speed and altitude The
first tests will reach 600 feet and demonstrate hovering verticle
takeoff and landing The second series will send the unmanned DCX up to
5000 feet The third and final series will take the craft up to 20000
feet
Maneuvers will become more complex on third phase The final
tests will include a pitchover manever that rotates the vehicle back
into a bottomdown configuration for a soft fourlegged landing
The flight test series will be supervised by Charles Pete
Conrad who performed similar maneuvers on the Apollo 12 moon landing
Now a McDonnell Douglas vice president Conrad paised the vehicles
aircraftlike approach to operations Features include automated
checkout and access panels for easy maintainance
If the program moves to the next stage engine technology will
become a key consideration This engine would have more thrust than the
Pratt Whitney RL10A5 engines used on the DCX Each motor uses liquid
hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to 14760 pounds of
thrust
Based on the engine used in Centaur upper stages the A5 model
has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and threetoon
throttling capability It also is designed for repeat firings and rapid
turnaround
Worden said future singlestage rockets could employ
tripropellant engine technology developed in the former Soviet Union
The resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and
then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes
The mechanism for the teaming may already be in place Pratt has
a technology agreement with NPO Energomash the design bureau responsible
for the tripropellant and Energia cryogenic engines
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <1qn044$gq5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>I thought that under emergency conditions, the STS can
>put down at any good size Airport. IF it could take a C-5 or a
>747, then it can take an orbiter. You just need a VOR/TAC
>
>I don't know if they need ILS.
DFW was designed with the STS in mind (which really mean very little). Much of
their early PR material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three
others pulled up to gates. I guess they were trying to stress how advanced the
airport was.
For Dallas types: Imagine the fit Grapevine and Irving would be having if the
shuttle WAS landing at DFW. (For the rest, they are currently having some power
struggles between the airport and surrounding cities).
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood. We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909 |
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
In article 1qn044gq5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
I thought that under emergency conditions the STS can
put down at any good size Airport IF it could take a C5 or a
747 then it can take an orbiter You just need a VORTAC
I dont know if they need ILS
DFW was designed with the STS in mind which really mean very little Much of
their early PR material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three
others pulled up to gates I guess they were trying to stress how advanced the
airport was
For Dallas types Imagine the fit Grapevine and Irving would be having if the
shuttle WAS landing at DFW For the rest they are currently having some power
struggles between the airport and surrounding cities
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood We need
pyronskndivdsegticom solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Lines: 32
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>, sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:
> In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>
>>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>>technology base... and on government contracts. Just doing it privately,
>>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
>
> So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
> U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
>
>
>
> Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
> -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad? Directly I mean..
I know of a few that could launch a small package into space.
Not including Ariadne, and the Russian Sites.. I know "Poker Flats" here in
Alaska, thou used to be only sounding rockets for Auroral Borealous(sp and
other northern atmospheric items, is at last I heard being upgraded to be able
to put sattelites into orbit.
Why must people in the US be fixed on using NASAs direct resources (Poker Flats
is runin part by NASA, but also by the Univesity of Alaska, and the Geophysical
Institute). Sounds like typical US cultural centralism and protectionism..
And people wonder why we have the multi-trillion dollar deficite(sp).
Yes, I am working on a spell checker..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Lines 32
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad Directly I mean
I know of a few that could launch a small package into space
Not including Ariadne and the Russian Sites I know Poker Flats here in
Alaska thou used to be only sounding rockets for Auroral Borealoussp and
other northern atmospheric items is at last I heard being upgraded to be able
to put sattelites into orbit
Why must people in the US be fixed on using NASAs direct resources Poker Flats
is runin part by NASA but also by the Univesity of Alaska and the Geophysical
Institute Sounds like typical US cultural centralism and protectionism
And people wonder why we have the multitrillion dollar deficitesp
Yes I am working on a spell checker
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 12
James Felder (spbach@lerc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: Logic alert - argument from incredulity. Just because it is hard for you
: to believe this doesn't mean that it isn't true. Liars can be very pursuasive
: just look at Koresh that you yourself cite.
This is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the Christian
account of things. In the words of St. Madalyn Murrey-O'Hair, "Face it
folks, it's just silly ...". Why is it okay to disbelieve because of
your incredulity if you admit that it's a fallacy?
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 12
James Felder spbachlercnasagov wrote
Logic alert argument from incredulity Just because it is hard for you
to believe this doesnt mean that it isnt true Liars can be very pursuasive
just look at Koresh that you yourself cite
This is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the Christian
account of things In the words of St Madalyn MurreyOHair Face it
folks its just silly Why is it okay to disbelieve because of
your incredulity if you admit that its a fallacy
Bill
preprocess doc From: richard@harlqn.co.uk (Richard Brooksby)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Harlequin Ltd, Cambridge, UK
Lines: 21
Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> > More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
>
> There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of
> both atheists AND theists. ... Perhaps, since I'm a bit weak on
> history, somone here would like to give a list of wars caused/led by
> theists? ...
This thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint
according to some utilitarian principle, i.e. atheism/religion is
wrong because it causes death. The underlying `moral' is that death
is `wrong'. This is a rather arbitrary measure of validity.
Get some epistemology.
---
richard@harlequin.com (Internet)
richard@harlequin.co.uk (Internet)
RPTB1@UK.AC.CAMBRIDGE.PHOENIX (JANET)
Zen Buddhist
after prepro From richardharlqncouk Richard Brooksby
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Harlequin Ltd Cambridge UK
Lines 21
Nanci Ann Miller writes
snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else
There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of
both atheists AND theists Perhaps since Im a bit weak on
history somone here would like to give a list of wars causedled by
theists
This thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint
according to some utilitarian principle ie atheismreligion is
wrong because it causes death The underlying `moral is that death
is `wrong This is a rather arbitrary measure of validity
Get some epistemology
richardharlequincom Internet
richardharlequincouk Internet
RPTB1UKACCAMBRIDGEPHOENIX JANET
Zen Buddhist
preprocess doc From: PPORTH@hq.nasa.gov ("Tricia Porth (202")
Subject: Remote Sensing Data
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 137
=================================================================
I am posting this for someone else. Please respond to the
address listed below. Please also excuse the duplication as this
message has been crossposted. Thanks!
=================================================================
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES
VIA THE INTERNET
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data. This effort will:
o Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research
Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth
Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs.
o Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and
Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education
Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of
science data and images and value added products.
o Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in
cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd,
DOI/USGS, and USDA).
o Support remote sensing image and data users and development
communities.
The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as
part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g.,
television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture
specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and
aqua business.
This program will be initiated in 1994. Your assistance is requested to
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data. We would
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan.
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS.
We are seeking your ideas in these areas:
(1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images;
(2) Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in
education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas;
(3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more
accessible;
(4) Additional points of contacts for ideas; and
(5) Addresses and names from whom to request proposals.
For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below. Feel
free to amend it as necessary. Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by
May 5, 1993.
E-MAIL: On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov" ASCII - No binary
attachments please
FAX: Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP
directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov. Please indicate the format.
Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and
RTF.
----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT--------------------------
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
(1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images (if possible,
identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and
standards).
(2) Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels
K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types
of data or science products, user tools, and standards).
(3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards,
and user tools)
(4) Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for
further ideas on applications areas. Please include: Name, Organization,
Address and Telephone Number.
(5) Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed. Please
include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number.
(6) We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote
sensing data do not use the data. Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats,
poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?
(7) In case we have questions, please send us your name, address, phone number
(and e-mail address if you have one). If you don't wish to send us this
information, feel free to respond to the survey anonymously. Thank you for
your assistance.
after prepro From PPORTHhqnasagov Tricia Porth 202
Subject Remote Sensing Data
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
MmdfWarning Parse error in original version of preceding line at VACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 137
I am posting this for someone else Please respond to the
address listed below Please also excuse the duplication as this
message has been crossposted Thanks
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES
VIA THE INTERNET
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data This effort will
o Use the evolving infrastructure of the US Global Change Research
Program including the Mission To Planet Earth MTPE and the Earth
Observing System Data and Information System EOSDIS Programs
o Use the Internet particularly the High Performance Computing and
Communications Programs NREN National Research and Education
Network as a means of providing access to and distribution of
science data and images and value added products
o Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in
cooperation with other agencies especially NOAA EPA DOE DEd
DOIUSGS and USDA
o Support remote sensing image and data users and development
communities
The user and development communities to be included but not limited to as
part of this effort are educators commercial application developers eg
television weather forecasters librarians publishers agriculture
specialists transportation forestry state and local government planners and
aqua business
This program will be initiated in 1994 Your assistance is requested to
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data We would
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan
PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS
We are seeking your ideas in these areas
1 Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images
2 Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in
education especially levels K12 and other noncommercial areas
3 Types of online capabilities and protocols to make the data more
accessible
4 Additional points of contacts for ideas and
5 Addresses and names from whom to request proposals
For your convenience a standard format for responses is included below Feel
free to amend it as necessary Either email or fax your responses to us by
May 5 1993
EMAIL On Internet rsdwgorionossahqnasagov ASCII No binary
attachments please
FAX Ernie Lucier co RSDWG NASA HQ FAX 2023583098
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP
directory ftppubRSDWG on orionnasagov Please indicate the format
Acceptable formats are Word for Windows 2X Macintosh Word 4X and 5X and
RTF
RESPONSE FORMAT
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
1 Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images if possible
identify the relevant types of data or science products user tools and
standards
2 Uses of remote sensing data and images in education especially levels
K12 and other noncommercial areas if possible identify the relevant types
of data or science products user tools and standards
3 Types of online capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible if possible identify relevant types of formats standards
and user tools
4 Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for
further ideas on applications areas Please include Name Organization
Address and Telephone Number
5 Organizations mailing lists electronic and paper periodicals etc to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed Please
include Name Organization Address and Telephone Number
6 We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote
sensing data do not use the data Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators or high cost lack of accessibility incompatible data formats
poor area of interest coverage inadequate spatial or spectral resolution
7 In case we have questions please send us your name address phone number
and email address if you have one If you dont wish to send us this
information feel free to respond to the survey anonymously Thank you for
your assistance
preprocess doc From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Venus Lander for Venus Conditions.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 8
I doubt there are good prospects for a self armoring system
for venus surface conditions (several hundred degrees, very high
pressure of CO2, possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides
but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might
pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying
deeper penetration. A nice creative idea, unlikly but worthy of
thinking about.
after prepro From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Venus Lander for Venus Conditions
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Lines 8
I doubt there are good prospects for a self armoring system
for venus surface conditions several hundred degrees very high
pressure of CO2 possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides
but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might
pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying
deeper penetration A nice creative idea unlikly but worthy of
thinking about
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
In-Reply-To: healta@saturn.wwc.edu's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02: 51:29 GMT
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
<healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>
Lines: 47
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02:51:29 GMT, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) said:
TRH> I hope you're not going to flame him. Please give him the same coutesy you'
TRH> ve given me.
But you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return. This
person instead has posted one of the worst arguments I have ever seen
made from the pro-Christian people. I've known several Jesuits who would
laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them.
Let's ignore the fact that it's not a true trilemma for the moment (nice
word Maddi, original or is it a real word?) and concentrate on the
liar, lunatic part.
The argument claims that no one would follow a liar, let alone thousands
of people. Look at L. Ron Hubbard. Now, he was probably not all there,
but I think he was mostly a liar and a con-artist. But look at how many
thousands of people follow Dianetics and Scientology. I think the
Baker's and Swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all
the time, but look at the number of follower they have.
As for lunatics, the best example is Hitler. He was obviously insane,
his advisors certainly thought so. Yet he had a whole country entralled
and came close to ruling all of Europe. How many Germans gave their lives
for him? To this day he has his followers.
I'm just amazed that people still try to use this argument. It's just
so obviously *wrong*.
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re some thoughts
InReplyTo healtasaturnwwcedus message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 02 5129 GMT
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
Lines 47
On Fri 16 Apr 1993 025129 GMT healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy said
TRH I hope youre not going to flame him Please give him the same coutesy you
TRH ve given me
But you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return This
person instead has posted one of the worst arguments I have ever seen
made from the proChristian people Ive known several Jesuits who would
laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them
Lets ignore the fact that its not a true trilemma for the moment nice
word Maddi original or is it a real word and concentrate on the
liar lunatic part
The argument claims that no one would follow a liar let alone thousands
of people Look at L Ron Hubbard Now he was probably not all there
but I think he was mostly a liar and a conartist But look at how many
thousands of people follow Dianetics and Scientology I think the
Bakers and Swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all
the time but look at the number of follower they have
As for lunatics the best example is Hitler He was obviously insane
his advisors certainly thought so Yet he had a whole country entralled
and came close to ruling all of Europe How many Germans gave their lives
for him To this day he has his followers
Im just amazed that people still try to use this argument Its just
so obviously wrong
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 46
In article <1qla0g$afp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <115565@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>|> >I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>|> >ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>|> >community in the Uk and elsewhere.
>|> Grow up, childish propagandist.
>Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
>things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
>them to be upsets you..
You have done no such thing.
>BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
>what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
>operators?
An Islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules
of Islam in regard to banking. This is done explicitly by the
bank. This was not the case with BCCI.
>And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
>BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
>the street?
This is crap. BCCI was motivated by the same motives as other
international banks, with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with
outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments.
>So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all
>work out right next time.
Back to childish propaganda again. You really ought to get a life
rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing. There are thousands
of Islamic banks operating throughout the world which no-one ever hears
about. If you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about
all the people who've been robbed by American banks.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 46
In article 1qla0gafpfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere
Grow up childish propagandist
Gregg Im really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things arent quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you
You have done no such thing
BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank
what will someone bet me they werent real Islamic owners and
operators
An Islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules
of Islam in regard to banking This is done explicitly by the
bank This was not the case with BCCI
And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interestmotivated western bank down
the street
This is crap BCCI was motivated by the same motives as other
international banks with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with
outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments
So please dont try to con us into thinking that it will all
work out right next time
Back to childish propaganda again You really ought to get a life
rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing There are thousands
of Islamic banks operating throughout the world which noone ever hears
about If you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about
all the people whove been robbed by American banks
Gregg
preprocess doc From: dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist)
Organization: Visix Software, Reston, Virginia
Lines: 11
dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
[Lots of trippy stuff deleted]
Wow... What is this guy smoking and WHERE can I GET SOME?
Dan
--
Daniel K. Appelquist|QUANTA is the electronically published and distributed
dan@visix.com |magazine of science fiction and fantasy. For more
703-758-2712 |information, send mail to quanta+@andrew.cmu.edu or,
703-758-0233 (Fax) |for back issues, ftp export.acs.cmu.edu, id:anonymous.
after prepro From danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist
Organization Visix Software Reston Virginia
Lines 11
dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
[Lots of trippy stuff deleted]
Wow What is this guy smoking and WHERE can I GET SOME
Dan
Daniel K AppelquistQUANTA is the electronically published and distributed
danvisixcom magazine of science fiction and fantasy For more
7037582712 information send mail to quantaandrewcmuedu or
7037580233 Fax for back issues ftp exportacscmuedu idanonymous
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
From: thacker@rhea.arc.ab.ca
Organization: Alberta Research Council
Nntp-Posting-Host: rhea.arc.ab.ca
Lines: 13
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au>, enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
<<<most of message deleted>>>
> What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
> it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
> Really, really depressed.
>
> Enzo
No need to be depressed about this one. Lights aren't on during the day
so there shouldn't be any daytime light pollution.
after prepro Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
From thackerrheaarcabca
Organization Alberta Research Council
NntpPostingHost rheaarcabca
Lines 13
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
Really really depressed
Enzo
No need to be depressed about this one Lights arent on during the day
so there shouldnt be any daytime light pollution
preprocess doc From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: RE: Looking for a little research help
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 6
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com
Found it! Thanks. I got several offers for help. I appreciate it and
will be contacting those people via e-mail.
Thanks again...
jennise
after prepro From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject RE Looking for a little research help
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 6
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom
Found it Thanks I got several offers for help I appreciate it and
will be contacting those people via email
Thanks again
jennise
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Keywords: Solar Sail
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 25
ajjb@adam4.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Andrew Broderick) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu> snydefj@eng.auburn.edu writes:
>>
>>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
>> Sails
>I was at an interesting seminar at work (UK's R.A.L. Space Science
>Dept.) on this subject, specifically on a small-scale Solar Sail
>proposed as a student space project. The guy giving the talk was keen to
>generate interest in the project. I'll typein the handout he gave out at
>the meeting. Here goes :
[Stuff deleted]
>However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
>people realize. The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
>square kilometer. ^^^^ ^^^^
I'm glad to see that someone is working on this. However, it would be nice if
he got his units right.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Keywords Solar Sail
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 25
ajjbadam4bnscrlacuk Andrew Broderick writes
In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails
I was at an interesting seminar at work UKs RAL Space Science
Dept on this subject specifically on a smallscale Solar Sail
proposed as a student space project The guy giving the talk was keen to
generate interest in the project Ill typein the handout he gave out at
the meeting Here goes
[Stuff deleted]
However it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most
people realize The pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per
square kilometer ^^^^ ^^^^
Im glad to see that someone is working on this However it would be nice if
he got his units right
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 36
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr3.071823.13253@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
|> In article <1pj2b6$aaa@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> >In article <1993Apr3.033446.10669@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
|> >|>Er, Jon, what Ken said was:
|> >|>
|> >|> There have previously been people like you in your country. Unfortunately,
|> >|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >|> most Jews did not survive.
|> >|>
|> >|>That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi.
|> >
[my previous posting deleted]
|>
|> Yes, yes. This is a perfectly fine rant, and I agree with it completely.
|> But what does it have to do with anything? The issue at hand here
|> is whether or not Ken accused the fellow from Germany of being a
|> Nazi. I grant that he did not explicity make this accusation, but
|> he came pretty damn close. He is certainly accusing the guy of
|> sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the Jews, and
|> that's good enough for me.
The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history, and
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany.
That's right. There have been. There have also been people who
were formally Nazis. But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly
acceptable.
Now what exactly don't you understand about what I wrote, and why
don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 36
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr307182313253bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
In article 1pj2b6aaafidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1993Apr303344610669bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
Er Jon what Ken said was
There have previously been people like you in your country Unfortunately
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
most Jews did not survive
That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi
[my previous posting deleted]
Yes yes This is a perfectly fine rant and I agree with it completely
But what does it have to do with anything The issue at hand here
is whether or not Ken accused the fellow from Germany of being a
Nazi I grant that he did not explicity make this accusation but
he came pretty damn close He is certainly accusing the guy of
sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the Jews and
thats good enough for me
The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history and
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany
Thats right There have been There have also been people who
were formally Nazis But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual antisemitism was perfectly
acceptable
Now what exactly dont you understand about what I wrote and why
dont you see what it has to do with the matter at hand
jon
preprocess doc From: bafta@cats.ucsc.edu (Shari L Brooks)
Subject: Re: Into Infinity?(WAS:Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan?)
Organization: University of California - Santa Cruz
Lines: 36
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu
Summary: me too!
Keywords: cheesy science fiction
In article <1993Apr18.171148.6367@abo.fi> MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI (Marcus
Lindroos INF) writes:
>Later on, the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
>of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in TV history by flying "Into Infinity."
>This was a one-off thing done as part of BBC's "educational SF" series "The
>Day After Tomorrow." The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
>reaching the speed of light ("lightship Altares"), the four-man crew
>eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the
>galaxy (I think). I saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very
>much, but then again I was a fan of SPACE:1999 so I guess I was easily
>satisfied in those days:-)
Wow. I was beginning to think that I had made that up. I remember that
movie (it was about 1.5 hours long). I don't think they ended up anywhere
in the known universe.
I remember they got a message halfway out to Proxima Centauri, that Earth
transmitted a day after they launched, timed to catch up with them at the
halfway point. I thought it was neat, I think I was all of 10 at the time.
>Does anyone know if "Into Infinity" has been released on video? I have some
>SPACE:1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc. also are available in
>England.
Space:1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in American stores.
I will look for the Into Infinity show, I never did know that was the
name of it, I thought the show was called "the day after tomorrow", and
that was it.
--
If you blow fire against the wind, take care to not get the smoke in your eyes.
Big & Growly Dragon-monster | bafta@cats.ucsc.edu
--------> shari brooks <-------- | brooks@anarchy.arc.nasa.gov
The above opinions are solely my own.
after prepro From baftacatsucscedu Shari L Brooks
Subject Re Into InfinityWASRe Doppelganger was Re Vulcan
Organization University of California Santa Cruz
Lines 36
NNTPPostingHost siucscedu
Summary me too
Keywords cheesy science fiction
In article 1993Apr181711486367abofi MLINDROOSFINABOABOFI Marcus
Lindroos INF writes
Later on the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudoscientific shows in TV history by flying Into Infinity
This was a oneoff thing done as part of BBCs educational SF series The
Day After Tomorrow The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light lightship Altares the fourman crew
eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the
galaxy I think I saw this as a 9yearold back in 1976 and liked it very
much but then again I was a fan of SPACE1999 so I guess I was easily
satisfied in those days
Wow I was beginning to think that I had made that up I remember that
movie it was about 15 hours long I dont think they ended up anywhere
in the known universe
I remember they got a message halfway out to Proxima Centauri that Earth
transmitted a day after they launched timed to catch up with them at the
halfway point I thought it was neat I think I was all of 10 at the time
Does anyone know if Into Infinity has been released on video I have some
SPACE1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc also are available in
England
Space1999 has just come out with 4 episodes released in American stores
I will look for the Into Infinity show I never did know that was the
name of it I thought the show was called the day after tomorrow and
that was it
If you blow fire against the wind take care to not get the smoke in your eyes
Big Growly Dragonmonster baftacatsucscedu
shari brooks brooksanarchyarcnasagov
The above opinions are solely my own
preprocess doc From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Theists posting
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 21
In article <C4ux99.AIC@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
Stuff deleted
>Is there a concordance for the FAQ? WHich translation is considered
>most authoritative? Is there an orthodox commentary for the FAQ
>available? Is there one FAQ for militant atheists and another for
>moderate atheists; or, do you all read from the same FAQ? If so,
>how do you resolve differences of interpretation?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................................
I can put the same question to followers of any religion. How do you
Moslems resolve differences of opinion ?? Don't tell me that there
is one interpretation of the Quran. Read the soc.culture.* newsgroups.
You will zillions of different interpretations.
-- Naren
naren@TEKIG1.PEN.TEK.COM
All standard disclaimers apply
after prepro From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Theists posting
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 21
In article khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
Stuff deleted
Is there a concordance for the FAQ WHich translation is considered
most authoritative Is there an orthodox commentary for the FAQ
available Is there one FAQ for militant atheists and another for
moderate atheists or do you all read from the same FAQ If so
how do you resolve differences of interpretation
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can put the same question to followers of any religion How do you
Moslems resolve differences of opinion Dont tell me that there
is one interpretation of the Quran Read the socculture newsgroups
You will zillions of different interpretations
Naren
narenTEKIG1PENTEKCOM
All standard disclaimers apply
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: HLV for Fred (was Re: Prefab Space Station?)
Article-I.D.: zoo.C51875.67p
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 28
In article <C5133A.Gzx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>>>Titan IV launches ain't cheap
>>Granted. But that's because titan IV's are bought by the governemnt. Titan
>>III is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all US expendable
>>launchers.
>
>In that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
>market. Is there a single Titan III on order?
The problem with Commercial Titan is that MM has made little or no attempt
to market it. They're basically happy with their government business and
don't want to have to learn how to sell commercially.
A secondary problem is that it is a bit big. They'd need to go after
multi-satellite launches, a la Ariane, and that complicates the marketing
task quite significantly.
They also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time
to get them started properly. If memory serves, the pad used for the Mars
Observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had
prevented launches from it for a year or so.
There have been a few CT launches. Mars Observer was one of them. So
was that stranded Intelsat, and at least one of its brothers that reached
orbit properly.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re HLV for Fred was Re Prefab Space Station
ArticleID zooC5187567p
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 28
In article jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
Titan IV launches aint cheap
Granted But thats because titan IVs are bought by the governemnt Titan
III is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all US expendable
launchers
In that case its rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
market Is there a single Titan III on order
The problem with Commercial Titan is that MM has made little or no attempt
to market it Theyre basically happy with their government business and
dont want to have to learn how to sell commercially
A secondary problem is that it is a bit big Theyd need to go after
multisatellite launches a la Ariane and that complicates the marketing
task quite significantly
They also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time
to get them started properly If memory serves the pad used for the Mars
Observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had
prevented launches from it for a year or so
There have been a few CT launches Mars Observer was one of them So
was that stranded Intelsat and at least one of its brothers that reached
orbit properly
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Evo. & Homosexuality (Was Re: Princeton etc.)
Article-I.D.: srvr1.1psosqINN3gg
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: wormwood.engin.umich.edu
Sorry, Bill, I had to clear this up. There may be good evolutionary
arguments against homosexuality, but these don't qualify.
In article <C4vwn0.JF5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>C.Wainwright (eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk) wrote:
[deletions]
>: |> It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
[deletions]
>: So *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children?
>: Hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated. Obviously you keep to the
>: Monty Python song: "Every sperm is sacred". And if, as *you* say, it has
>: a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own
>: arguement, natural.
>
>Consider the context, I'm talking about an evolutionary function. One
>of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
>species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context.
Oh? I guess all those social insects (e.g. ants, bees, etc.) which
have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on
the way out, huh?
>: These days is just ain't true! People can decide whether or not to have
>: children and when. Soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's
>: another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision. Again by
>: your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they
>: must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children. Both are
>: as "unnatural" as each other.
>
>Yet another non-sequitur. Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
>for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. That
>homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and
>nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose.
I refer you to the bonobos, a species of primate as closeley related to
humans as chimpanzees (that is, very closely). They have sex all the
time, homosexual as well as heterosexual. When the group finds food, they
have sex. Before the go to sleep at night, they have sex. After they
escape from or fight off prdators, they have sex. Sex serves a very important
social function above and beyond reproduction in this species. A species
closely related to humans. There is some indication that sex performs
a social function in humans, as well, but even if not, this shows that
such a function is not *impossible*.
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu
"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Evo Homosexuality Was Re Princeton etc
ArticleID srvr11psosqINN3gg
Distribution world
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost wormwoodenginumichedu
Sorry Bill I had to clear this up There may be good evolutionary
arguments against homosexuality but these dont qualify
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
CWainwright eczcawmipsnottacuk wrote
[deletions]
It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
[deletions]
So every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children
Hmmno wonder the world is overpopulated Obviously you keep to the
Monty Python song Every sperm is sacred And if as you say it has
a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own
arguement natural
Consider the context Im talking about an evolutionary function One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate those who dont have no purpose in that context
Oh I guess all those social insects eg ants bees etc which
have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on
the way out huh
These days is just aint true People can decide whether or not to have
children and when Soon they will be able to choose its sex c but thats
another arguement so its more of a lifestyle decision Again by
your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they
must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children Both are
as unnatural as each other
Yet another nonsequitur Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental That
homosexuals dont procreate means that sex is only recreation and
nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose
I refer you to the bonobos a species of primate as closeley related to
humans as chimpanzees that is very closely They have sex all the
time homosexual as well as heterosexual When the group finds food they
have sex Before the go to sleep at night they have sex After they
escape from or fight off prdators they have sex Sex serves a very important
social function above and beyond reproduction in this species A species
closely related to humans There is some indication that sex performs
a social function in humans as well but even if not this shows that
such a function is not impossible
Sincerely
Ray Ingles inglesenginumichedu
The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars Robert A Heinlein
preprocess doc Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 22
In article <bskendigC5JCwx.Jzn@netcom.com>, bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>
> [s.c.a quotes deleted]
>
> It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
> to be atheist. There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
> I thought...
Well, that explains some things; I posted on soc.religion.islam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea
among muslims. I got no response. Asking about the unknown,
I guess...
Karl
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope | "All you touch and all you see |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition - | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall." --Duke | --Pink Floyd |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 22
In article bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes
[sca quotes deleted]
It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
to be atheist There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
I thought
Well that explains some things I posted on socreligionislam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonlyheld idea
among muslims I got no response Asking about the unknown
I guess
Karl
Lastly I come to China in the hope All you touch and all you see
of fulfilling a lifelong ambition Is all your life will ever be
dropping acid on the Great Wall Duke Pink Floyd
A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it
preprocess doc From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community. The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 66
In article <1ql06qINN2kf@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>Schneider
>>>Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
>>>a certain species has developed in order to survive.
>>Wait. Are we talking about ethics or morals here?
>
>Is the distinction important?
Yes.
>>>We see this countless
>>>times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for
>>>our own system as well.
>>Huh?
>
>Well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways.
Please describe these "number of ways" in detail. Then explain the any
contradictions that may arise.
>>>In order for humans to thrive, we seem to need
>>>to live in groups,
>>Here's your problem. "we *SEEM* to need". What's wrong with the highlighted
>>word?
>
>I don't know. What is wrong? Is it possible for humans to survive for
>a long time in the wild? Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult. Humans
>are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success.
Define "difficult".
>>>and in order for a group to function effectively, it
>>>needs some sort of ethical code.
>>This statement is not correct.
>
>Isn't it? Why don't you think so?
Explain the laws in America stating that you have to drive on the right-
hand side of the road.
>>>And, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself,
>>>I am not trying to give you your tautology, but I am trying to show that
>>>such are examples of moral systems with a goal. Propogation of the species
>>>is a goal of a natural system of morality.
>>So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral? After all,
>>in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate
>>as many women as possible.
>
>No. As noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality)
>isn't really destructive to the system. It is a worst neutral.
So if every member of the species was homosexual, this wouldn't be destructive
to the survival of the species?
>>For that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates. When
>>he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who
>>mates. These seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying
>>to shoot itself in the figurative foot.
>
>Again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined...
The whole "theory" needs to be reexamined...
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. OK???=
after prepro From kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes
Schneider
Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
a certain species has developed in order to survive
Wait Are we talking about ethics or morals here
Is the distinction important
Yes
We see this countless
times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for
our own system as well
Huh
Well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways
Please describe these number of ways in detail Then explain the any
contradictions that may arise
In order for humans to thrive we seem to need
to live in groups
Heres your problem we SEEM to need Whats wrong with the highlighted
word
I dont know What is wrong Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild Yes its possible but it is difficult Humans
are a social animal and that is a cause of our success
Define difficult
and in order for a group to function effectively it
needs some sort of ethical code
This statement is not correct
Isnt it Why dont you think so
Explain the laws in America stating that you have to drive on the right
hand side of the road
And by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself
I am not trying to give you your tautology but I am trying to show that
such are examples of moral systems with a goal Propogation of the species
is a goal of a natural system of morality
So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral After all
in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate
as many women as possible
No As noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality
isnt really destructive to the system It is a worst neutral
So if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldnt be destructive
to the survival of the species
For that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates When
he diesis killedwhatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who
mates These seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying
to shoot itself in the figurative foot
Again the mating practices are something to be reexamined
The whole theory needs to be reexamined
kcochrannyxcsduedu B04 c d e f g k m r s t TSAKC
My thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza OK
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 56
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr15.051746.29848@news.duc.auburn.edu>, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
> I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails. [...]
> Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?
Sure. Contact the World Space Foundation. They're listed in the sci.space
Frequently Asked Questions file, which I'll excerpt.
WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).
World Space Foundation
Post Office Box Y
South Pasadena, California 91301
WSF put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and
nonfiction about solar sails: *Project Solar Sail*. I think Robert
Staehle, David Brin, or Arthur Clarke may be listed as editor.
Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman,
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me (help me out, Josh),
and I would expect that Greg Matloff and Eugene Mallove have something
to say about the subject in *The Starflight Handbook*, as well as
quite a few references.
Check the following articles in *Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society*:
V36 p. 201-209 (1983)
V36 p. 483-489 (1983)
V37 p. 135-141 (1984)
V37 p. 491-494 (1984)
V38 p. 113-119 (1984)
V38 p. 133-136 (1984)
(Can you guess that Matloff visited Fermilab and gave me a bunch of
reprints? I just found the file.)
And K. Eric Drexler's paper "High Performance Solar Sails and Related
Reflecting Devices," AIAA paper 79-1418, probably in a book called
*Space Manufacturing*, maybe the proceedings of the Second (?)
Conference on Space Manufacturing. The 1979 one, at any rate.
Submarines, flying boats, robots, talking Bill Higgins
pictures, radio, television, bouncing radar Fermilab
vibrations off the moon, rocket ships, and HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
atom-splitting-- all in our time. But nobody HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
has yet been able to figure out a music SPAN: 43011::HIGGINS
holder for a marching piccolo player.
--Meredith Willson, 1948
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 56
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1993Apr1505174629848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails []
Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project
Sure Contact the World Space Foundation Theyre listed in the scispace
Frequently Asked Questions file which Ill excerpt
WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION has been designing and building a solarsail
spacecraft for longer than any similar group many JPL employees lend
their talents to this project WSF also provides partial funding for the
Palomar Sky Survey an extremely successful search for nearEarth
asteroids Publishes Foundation News and Foundation Astronautics
Notebook each a quarterly 48 page newsletter Contributing Associate
minimum of 15year but more money always welcome to support projects
World Space Foundation
Post Office Box Y
South Pasadena California 91301
WSF put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and
nonfiction about solar sails Project Solar Sail I think Robert
Staehle David Brin or Arthur Clarke may be listed as editor
Also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by Louis Friedman
a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out Josh
and I would expect that Greg Matloff and Eugene Mallove have something
to say about the subject in The Starflight Handbook as well as
quite a few references
Check the following articles in Journal of the British Interplanetary
Society
V36 p 201209 1983
V36 p 483489 1983
V37 p 135141 1984
V37 p 491494 1984
V38 p 113119 1984
V38 p 133136 1984
Can you guess that Matloff visited Fermilab and gave me a bunch of
reprints I just found the file
And K Eric Drexlers paper High Performance Solar Sails and Related
Reflecting Devices AIAA paper 791418 probably in a book called
Space Manufacturing maybe the proceedings of the Second
Conference on Space Manufacturing The 1979 one at any rate
Submarines flying boats robots talking Bill Higgins
pictures radio television bouncing radar Fermilab
vibrations off the moon rocket ships and HIGGINSFNALBITNET
atomsplitting all in our time But nobody HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV
has yet been able to figure out a music SPAN 43011HIGGINS
holder for a marching piccolo player
Meredith Willson 1948
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>I don't expect the lion to know, or not know anything of the kind.
>In fact, I don't have any evidence that lions ever consider such
>issues.
>And that, of course, is why I don't think you can assign moral
>significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions.
What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
That is, it doesn't take much work to be moral, but it certainly does to
be immoral (in some cases). Also, I've said that morality is a remnant
of evolution. Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in
the animal kingdom.
>>So you are basically saying that you think a "moral" is an undefinable
>>term, and that "moral systems" don't exist? If we can't agree on a
>>definition of these terms, then how can we hope to discuss them?
>No, it's perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
>is in *my* system, but that I can't speak for other people.
But, this doesn't get us anywhere. Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them...
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re I dont expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind
In fact I dont have any evidence that lions ever consider such
issues
And that of course is why I dont think you can assign moral
significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions
What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior
That is it doesnt take much work to be moral but it certainly does to
be immoral in some cases Also Ive said that morality is a remnant
of evolution Our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in
the animal kingdom
So you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable
term and that moral systems dont exist If we cant agree on a
definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them
No its perfectly clear that I am saying that I know what a moral
is in my system but that I cant speak for other people
But this doesnt get us anywhere Your particular beliefs are irrelevant
unless you can share them or discuss them
keith
preprocess doc From: trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu (Stephen McIntyre)
Subject: Re: The Problem of Satan (used to be: islamic authority over women)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 103
In article <1993Apr5.165233.1007@news.unomaha.edu> trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu
(Stephen McIntyre) writes:
> Of course, Bobby then states that Satan has no free will, that
> he does as God wants him to. This brings up a host of
> paradoxes: is God therefore evil; do I have free will
> or is God directing me also; if God is evil, which part
> of his infinite self is good and which is evil; etc.?
> I would like for once a solid answer, not a run-about.
# I hope I gave you a fairly solid answer to this one: I simply don't agree
# with the embodied version of a Satan who is a separate creation or a force.
# I wrote:
>> The belief to which I ascribe is that evil is not a creation;
>> rather, it is "the absence of good." This fits with all the
>> logic about things having dual use: e.g., a knife can be used
>> to sculpt and it can be used to kill. Like entropy, evil is
>> seen in this view as neither force nor entity. Satan is,
>> therefore, metaphorical. In fact, there are several verses
>> of the Holy Qur'an which appear to support this view and several
>> Traditions as well.
>
>> For example, there is a Tradition that food should never be left open
>> on a shelf or table overnight, lest "Satan" enter it. It appears
>> that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs; thus, the
>> evil effect of spoiled food is described as "Satan."
>But there are many examples of Satan personified. Which am I
> to believe?
# And there are quite physical descriptions of Heaven and Hell in the
# Holy Qur'an, the Bible, etc. There have been times in the spiritual
# and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical
# descriptions of Heaven, Hell, and Satan were taken quite literally
# and that *worked* for the time. As I mentioned in the Tradition
# cited above, for example, it was sufficient in the absence of a theory
# about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the "evil"
# which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as "satanic."
Which begs the question: if Satan in this case is
metaphorical, how can you be certain Allah is not
the same way?
# The bottom line here, however, is that describing a spiritual plane
# in human language is something like describing "color" to a person
# who has been blind from birth. You may want to read the book
# FLATLAND (if you haven't already) or THE DRAGON'S EGG. The first
# is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con-
# cept...
[some deleted for space saving]
# When language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe
# another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers, then
# such conventions as metaphor, allegory, and the like come to be
# necessary. The "unseen" is described in terms which have reference`
# and meaning for the reader/listener. But, like all models, a compro-
# mise must be made when speaking metaphorically: clarity and directness
# of meaning, equivalence of perception, and the like are all
# crippled. But what else can you do?
This is why I asked the above. How would you then
know God exists as a spirit or being rather than
just being metaphorical? I mean, it's okay to say
"well, Satan is just metaphorical," but then you
have to justify this belief AND justify that God is
not some metaphor for something else.
I say this because there are many, many instances of
Satan described as a being (such as the tormentor in
the Old Testament book of Job, or the temptor in the
New Testament Gospels). In the same way, God too is
described as a being (or spirit.) How am I to know
one is metaphorical and not the other.
Further, belief in God isn't a bar to evil. Let's
consider the case of Satanists: even if Satan were
metaphorical, the Satanist would have to believe
in God to justify this belief. Again, we have a
case where someone does believe in God, but by
religious standards, they are "evil." If Bobby
does see this, let him address this question also.
[deleted some more on "metaphor"]
>> Obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible, but I'm
>> not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve
>> into religious interpretation further. However, if anyone wishes
>> to discuss this, I'm certainly willing (either off line - e-mail - or
>> on line - posting).
Stephen
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ * Atheist
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * Libertarian
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ * Pro-individuality
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ * Pro-responsibility
_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Jr. * and all that jazz...
--
after prepro From trajancwisunomahaedu Stephen McIntyre
Subject Re The Problem of Satan used to be islamic authority over women
Organization University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines 103
In article 1993Apr51652331007newsunomahaedu trajancwisunomahaedu
Stephen McIntyre writes
Of course Bobby then states that Satan has no free will that
he does as God wants him to This brings up a host of
paradoxes is God therefore evil do I have free will
or is God directing me also if God is evil which part
of his infinite self is good and which is evil etc
I would like for once a solid answer not a runabout
I hope I gave you a fairly solid answer to this one I simply dont agree
with the embodied version of a Satan who is a separate creation or a force
I wrote
The belief to which I ascribe is that evil is not a creation
rather it is the absence of good This fits with all the
logic about things having dual use eg a knife can be used
to sculpt and it can be used to kill Like entropy evil is
seen in this view as neither force nor entity Satan is
therefore metaphorical In fact there are several verses
of the Holy Quran which appear to support this view and several
Traditions as well
For example there is a Tradition that food should never be left open
on a shelf or table overnight lest Satan enter it It appears
that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs thus the
evil effect of spoiled food is described as Satan
But there are many examples of Satan personified Which am I
to believe
And there are quite physical descriptions of Heaven and Hell in the
Holy Quran the Bible etc There have been times in the spiritual
and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical
descriptions of Heaven Hell and Satan were taken quite literally
and that worked for the time As I mentioned in the Tradition
cited above for example it was sufficient in the absence of a theory
about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the evil
which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as satanic
Which begs the question if Satan in this case is
metaphorical how can you be certain Allah is not
the same way
The bottom line here however is that describing a spiritual plane
in human language is something like describing color to a person
who has been blind from birth You may want to read the book
FLATLAND if you havent already or THE DRAGONS EGG The first
is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con
cept
[some deleted for space saving]
When language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe
another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers then
such conventions as metaphor allegory and the like come to be
necessary The unseen is described in terms which have reference`
and meaning for the readerlistener But like all models a compro
mise must be made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness
of meaning equivalence of perception and the like are all
crippled But what else can you do
This is why I asked the above How would you then
know God exists as a spirit or being rather than
just being metaphorical I mean its okay to say
well Satan is just metaphorical but then you
have to justify this belief AND justify that God is
not some metaphor for something else
I say this because there are many many instances of
Satan described as a being such as the tormentor in
the Old Testament book of Job or the temptor in the
New Testament Gospels In the same way God too is
described as a being or spirit How am I to know
one is metaphorical and not the other
Further belief in God isnt a bar to evil Lets
consider the case of Satanists even if Satan were
metaphorical the Satanist would have to believe
in God to justify this belief Again we have a
case where someone does believe in God but by
religious standards they are evil If Bobby
does see this let him address this question also
[deleted some more on metaphor]
Obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible but Im
not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve
into religious interpretation further However if anyone wishes
to discuss this Im certainly willing either off line email or
on line posting
Stephen
____ ____ _ _ Atheist
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ Libertarian
____ ____ _ _ _ Proindividuality
_ _ _ _ _ Proresponsibility
____ _ _ _ _ Jr and all that jazz
preprocess doc From: jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp.
Lines: 15
nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson) writes:
>jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
>>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.
>I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
>to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
>said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
>during assembly of one SRB.
I assume, then, that someone at Thiokol put on their "manager's hat" and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea, regardless of where that tool might have ended up.
Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol "manager's hats" are shaped like cones?
after prepro From jfwksrcom John F Woods
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 15
nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson writes
jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case
I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB
I assume then that someone at Thiokol put on their managers hat and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up
Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol managers hats are shaped like cones
preprocess doc Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr5.024626.19942@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>
>Peace,
Bobby:
Get this the hell out of your .sig until you 1) learn what it
stands for and 2) really mean it.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro Subject Re islamic authority over women
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 17
In article 1993Apr502462619942ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
Peace
Bobby
Get this the hell out of your sig until you 1 learn what it
stands for and 2 really mean it
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: ml@chiron.astro.uu.se (Mats Lindgren)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Uppsala University
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: chiron.astro.uu.se
Comet P/Helin-Roman-Crockett also spent some time as a temporary
satellite to Jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations
by Tancredi, G., Lindgren, M. and Rickman, H.(Astron. Astrophys.,
239, pp. 375-380, 1990).
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
| Mats Lindgren | Mats.Lindgren@astro.uu.se |
| Astronomical Observatory | 21619::laban::ml |
| Box 515 | |
| 751 20 Uppsala | Phone (+46) (0)18 51 35 22 |
| Sweden | Fax 52 75 83 |
-------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From mlchironastrouuse Mats Lindgren
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Uppsala University
Lines 14
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost chironastrouuse
Comet PHelinRomanCrockett also spent some time as a temporary
satellite to Jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations
by Tancredi G Lindgren M and Rickman HAstron Astrophys
239 pp 375380 1990
Mats Lindgren MatsLindgrenastrouuse
Astronomical Observatory 21619labanml
Box 515
751 20 Uppsala Phone 46 018 51 35 22
Sweden Fax 52 75 83
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith IS a relativist!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat) writes:
>Keith, if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
>to maul someone thrown into it's cage (so to speak), you'd better start
>posting tome decent evidence or retract your 'I think there is an absolute
>morality' blurb a few weeks ago.
Did I claim that there was an absolute morality, or just an objective one?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith IS a relativist
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat writes
Keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human
to maul someone thrown into its cage so to speak youd better start
posting tome decent evidence or retract your I think there is an absolute
morality blurb a few weeks ago
Did I claim that there was an absolute morality or just an objective one
keith
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 114
In article <1993Apr5.091139.823@batman.bmd.trw.com>
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>> Didn't you say Lucifer was created with a perfect nature?
>
>Yes.
>
Define perfect then.
>> I think you
>> are playing the usual game here, make sweeping statements like omni-,
>> holy, or perfect, and don't note that they mean exactly what they say.
>> And that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to
>> contradictions.
>
>I'm not trying to play games here. But I understand how it might seem
>that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point
>of view such as atheism.
>
Take your foot out of your mouth, I wondered about that already when I
was a Catholic Christian. The fact that the contradiction is unresolvable
is one of the reasons why I am an atheist.
Believe me, I believed similar sentences for a long time. But that shows
the power of religion and not anything about its claims.
>>>Now God could have prevented Lucifer's fall by taking away his ability
>>>to choose between moral alternatives (worship God or worship himself),
>>>but that would mean that God was in error to have make Lucifer or any
>>>being with free will in the first place.
>>
>> Exactly. God allows evil, an evil if there ever was one.
>>
>
>Now that's an opinion, or at best a premise. But from my point of view,
>it is not a premise which is necessary true, specifically, that it is
>an evil to allow evil to occur.
>
It follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used. Letting evil
happen or allowing evil to take place, in this place even causing evil,
is another evil.
>> But could you give a definition of free will? Especially in the
>> presence of an omniscient being?
>>
>"Will" is "self-determination". In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God. All "will", therefore, is "free will".
>
The omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even
before the omnipotent has created them. There is no choice left. All is known,
the course of events is fixed.
Not even for the omniscient itself, to extend an argument by James Tims.
>>>If God is omniscient, then
>>>clearly, creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than
>>>the emergence of ungodliness (evil/sin) since He created them knowing
>>>the outcome in advance.
>>
>> Why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it
>> will happen? Why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of
>> doing good or not doing good, but that does not necessarily imply
>> doing evil. It is logically possible, but your god has not done it.
>
>I do not know that such is logically possible. If God restrains a
>free being's choice to choose to do evil and simply do "not good",
>then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice?
>And if "good" is defined as loving and obeying God, and avoiding
>those behaviors which God prohibits, then how can you say that one
>who is "not good" is not evil as well? Like I said, I am not sure
>that doing "not good" without doing evil is logically possible.
And when I am not omnipotent, how can I have free will? You have said
something about choices and the scenario gives them. Therefore we have
what you define as free will.
Imagine the following. I can do good to other beings, but I cannot harm them.
Easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good
deeds, but don't make them long for them, so they can not feel the absence
of good as evil.
But whose case am I arguing? It is conceivable, so the omnipotent can do it.
Or it would not be omnipotent. If you want logically consistent as well, you
have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first.
(Deletion)
>
>Perhaps it is weak, in a way. If I were just speculating about the
>ubiquitous pink unicorns, then there would be no basis for such
>speculation. But this idea of God didn't just fall on me out of the
>blue :), or while reading science fiction or fantasy. (I know that
>some will disagree) :) The Bible describes a God who is omniscient,
>and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice, from which
>the definitional logic follows. But that's not all there is to it.
>There seems to be (at least in my mind) a certain amount of evidence
>which indicates that God exists and that the Biblical description
>of Him may be a fair one. It is that evidence which bolsters the
>argument in my view.
That the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys
the credibility of the bible, nothing less.
And a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god,
unfortunately, there can't be any with these definitions.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 114
In article 1993Apr5091139823batmanbmdtrwcom
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
Didnt you say Lucifer was created with a perfect nature
Yes
Define perfect then
I think you
are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni
holy or perfect and dont note that they mean exactly what they say
And that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to
contradictions
Im not trying to play games here But I understand how it might seem
that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point
of view such as atheism
Take your foot out of your mouth I wondered about that already when I
was a Catholic Christian The fact that the contradiction is unresolvable
is one of the reasons why I am an atheist
Believe me I believed similar sentences for a long time But that shows
the power of religion and not anything about its claims
Now God could have prevented Lucifers fall by taking away his ability
to choose between moral alternatives worship God or worship himself
but that would mean that God was in error to have make Lucifer or any
being with free will in the first place
Exactly God allows evil an evil if there ever was one
Now thats an opinion or at best a premise But from my point of view
it is not a premise which is necessary true specifically that it is
an evil to allow evil to occur
It follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used Letting evil
happen or allowing evil to take place in this place even causing evil
is another evil
But could you give a definition of free will Especially in the
presence of an omniscient being
Will is selfdetermination In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God All will therefore is free will
The omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even
before the omnipotent has created them There is no choice left All is known
the course of events is fixed
Not even for the omniscient itself to extend an argument by James Tims
If God is omniscient then
clearly creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than
the emergence of ungodliness evilsin since He created them knowing
the outcome in advance
Why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it
will happen Why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of
doing good or not doing good but that does not necessarily imply
doing evil It is logically possible but your god has not done it
I do not know that such is logically possible If God restrains a
free beings choice to choose to do evil and simply do not good
then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice
And if good is defined as loving and obeying God and avoiding
those behaviors which God prohibits then how can you say that one
who is not good is not evil as well Like I said I am not sure
that doing not good without doing evil is logically possible
And when I am not omnipotent how can I have free will You have said
something about choices and the scenario gives them Therefore we have
what you define as free will
Imagine the following I can do good to other beings but I cannot harm them
Easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good
deeds but dont make them long for them so they can not feel the absence
of good as evil
But whose case am I arguing It is conceivable so the omnipotent can do it
Or it would not be omnipotent If you want logically consistent as well you
have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first
Deletion
Perhaps it is weak in a way If I were just speculating about the
ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would be no basis for such
speculation But this idea of God didnt just fall on me out of the
blue or while reading science fiction or fantasy I know that
some will disagree The Bible describes a God who is omniscient
and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which
the definitional logic follows But thats not all there is to it
There seems to be at least in my mind a certain amount of evidence
which indicates that God exists and that the Biblical description
of Him may be a fair one It is that evidence which bolsters the
argument in my view
That the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys
the credibility of the bible nothing less
And a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god
unfortunately there cant be any with these definitions
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: nick@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de ( Nikan B Firoozye )
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Applied Math, University of Bonn, Germany
Lines: 15
A related question (which I haven't given that much serious thought
to): at what lattitude is the average length of the day (averaged
over the whole year) maximized? Is this function a constant=
12 hours? Is it truly symmetric about the equator? Or is
there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic
(or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and
make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter, but
is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight
hours)?
I want to know where to move.
-Nick Firoozye
nick@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de
after prepro From nicksfb256iamunibonnde Nikan B Firoozye
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Applied Math University of Bonn Germany
Lines 15
A related question which I havent given that much serious thought
to at what lattitude is the average length of the day averaged
over the whole year maximized Is this function a constant
12 hours Is it truly symmetric about the equator Or is
there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic
or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and
make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter but
is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight
hours
I want to know where to move
Nick Firoozye
nicksfb256iamunibonnde
preprocess doc From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
In-Reply-To: <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu>'s message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:50:02 EDT
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 12
In <93106.155002JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
Who cares what the fellow wrote anyway? I mean, it came from
PSUVM, so how could it possibly have been of any importance?
=====
(disperse smileys until no longer offended)
--
Disclaimer? "It's great to be young and insane!"
after prepro From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
InReplyTo s message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 155002 EDT
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 12
In 93106155002JSN104psuvmpsuedu writes
Who cares what the fellow wrote anyway I mean it came from
PSUVM so how could it possibly have been of any importance
disperse smileys until no longer offended
Disclaimer Its great to be young and insane
preprocess doc From: zowie@daedalus.stanford.edu (Craig "Powderkeg" DeForest)
Subject: Re: Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization: Stanford Center for Space Science and Astrophysics
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: daedalus.stanford.edu
In-reply-to: rdl1@ukc.ac.uk's message of 16 Apr 93 14:28:07 GMT
In article <3918@eagle.ukc.ac.uk> rdl1@ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Lorenz) writes:
>Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
>for sounding rockets?
Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
tanks big enough.
Our sounding rocket payload, with telemetry, guidance, etc. etc. and a
telescope cluster, weighs around 1100 pounds. It uses freon jets for
steering and a pulse-width-modulated controller for alignment (ie
during our eight minutes in space, the jets are pretty much
continuously firing on a ~10% duty cycle or so...). The jets also
need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization, and
flip the payload around to look at the Sun.
We have two freon tanks, each holding ~5 liters of freon (I'm speaking
only from memory of the last flight). The ground crew at WSMR choose how
much freon to use based on some black-magic algorithm. They have
extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack.
This should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas
quantity. If you really need to know, send me email and I'll try to get you
in touch with our ground crew people.
Cheers,
Craig
--
DON'T DRINK SOAP! DILUTE DILUTE! OK!
after prepro From zowiedaedalusstanfordedu Craig Powderkeg DeForest
Subject Re Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization Stanford Center for Space Science and Astrophysics
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost daedalusstanfordedu
Inreplyto rdl1ukcacuks message of 16 Apr 93 142807 GMT
In article 3918eagleukcacuk rdl1ukcacuk RDLorenz writes
Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets
Well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the
tanks big enough
Our sounding rocket payload with telemetry guidance etc etc and a
telescope cluster weighs around 1100 pounds It uses freon jets for
steering and a pulsewidthmodulated controller for alignment ie
during our eight minutes in space the jets are pretty much
continuously firing on a 10 duty cycle or so The jets also
need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization and
flip the payload around to look at the Sun
We have two freon tanks each holding 5 liters of freon Im speaking
only from memory of the last flight The ground crew at WSMR choose how
much freon to use based on some blackmagic algorithm They have
extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack
This should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas
quantity If you really need to know send me email and Ill try to get you
in touch with our ground crew people
Cheers
Craig
DONT DRINK SOAP DILUTE DILUTE OK
preprocess doc From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Lines: 3
They must be shipping that good Eau Clair acid to California now.
Tom Freebairn
after prepro From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Lines 3
They must be shipping that good Eau Clair acid to California now
Tom Freebairn
preprocess doc From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms )
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 34
In article <1pfiuh$64e@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>If the japanese are really going for Nukes, why not go with better
>technology then we have. AS opposed to BWR/PWRs have they really
>considered some of the 3rd generation Inherently safe designs.
The Japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes.
This means that unlike the Germans (who do great things all by themselves)
the Japanese tie up with foreign companies. The major one is Mitsubishi
(who else) who have a sharing agreement with GE I think. No chance of a
new design.
>Sodium has lots of chemical problems but it really solves design
>difficulties. Or the inherently safe types.
Sodium has *lots* of chemical problems. Like it eats stainless steel. Very
slowly but it gets there in the end. Not what I call a desired property.
As for design difficulties, what does sodium do there? It is a bitch and
it is only its chemical properties (flwed though they are) that means it
gets used. Two loops? That's not a design problem? Isolation from air and
water? That doesn't cause design problems? In comparison BWR's a dream rides!
>PWR's work real good, but they need lots of steel, and they are highly
>complex systems. Simplicity is a virtue.
Don't get none of that in a Liquid Sodium Breeder! More steel, more complexity.
Joseph Askew
--
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
after prepro From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re the call to space was Re Clueless Szaboisms
Organization Statistics Pure Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 34
In article 1pfiuh64eaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
If the japanese are really going for Nukes why not go with better
technology then we have AS opposed to BWRPWRs have they really
considered some of the 3rd generation Inherently safe designs
The Japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes
This means that unlike the Germans who do great things all by themselves
the Japanese tie up with foreign companies The major one is Mitsubishi
who else who have a sharing agreement with GE I think No chance of a
new design
Sodium has lots of chemical problems but it really solves design
difficulties Or the inherently safe types
Sodium has lots of chemical problems Like it eats stainless steel Very
slowly but it gets there in the end Not what I call a desired property
As for design difficulties what does sodium do there It is a bitch and
it is only its chemical properties flwed though they are that means it
gets used Two loops Thats not a design problem Isolation from air and
water That doesnt cause design problems In comparison BWRs a dream rides
PWRs work real good but they need lots of steel and they are highly
complex systems Simplicity is a virtue
Dont get none of that in a Liquid Sodium Breeder More steel more complexity
Joseph Askew
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale the River murmurs on
preprocess doc From: bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician)
Subject: Re: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
Organization: Society for the Preservation of E. coli
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
I have an addition to the FAQ regarding "why are there no atheist
hospitals."
If I recall correctly, Johns Hopkins was built to provide medical
services without the "backing" of a religious group...thus making it a
hospital "dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism."
Might someone check up on this?
--
Brian Evans | "Bad mood, bad mood...Sure I'm in a bad mood!
bevans@carina.unm.edu | I haven't had sex...*EVER!*" -- Virgin Mary
after prepro From bevanscarinaunmedu Mathemagician
Subject Re AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
Organization Society for the Preservation of E coli
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost carinaunmedu
Keywords FAQ atheism
I have an addition to the FAQ regarding why are there no atheist
hospitals
If I recall correctly Johns Hopkins was built to provide medical
services without the backing of a religious groupthus making it a
hospital dedicated to the glory of [weak] atheism
Might someone check up on this
Brian Evans Bad mood bad moodSure Im in a bad mood
bevanscarinaunmedu I havent had sexEVER Virgin Mary
preprocess doc From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective.
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 9
I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking
the very leading question (in two or three parts)
What are your long term expectations of space market, what projects
specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels
and what competition do you expect in this area. (This last point
is always worth hitting upper management with "gently" if you want
them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that
there really is competion)
after prepro From degroffnetcomcom 21012d
Subject Re Talking to Boeing management about SSTO type stuff from a shareholder perspective
Organization Netcom Online Communications Services 4082419760 login guest
Lines 9
I might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking
the very leading question in two or three parts
What are your long term expectations of space market what projects
specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels
and what competition do you expect in this area This last point
is always worth hitting upper management with gently if you want
them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that
there really is competion
preprocess doc From: seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Nntp-Posting-Host: pogo.den.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics, Denver
Lines: 8
baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>temporarily in orbit around Jupiter. The comet had apparently made a
>close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>comet.
Ooooh -- who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO?!?
after prepro From sealepossumdenmmccom Eric H Seale
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
NntpPostingHost pogodenmmccom
Organization Martin Marietta Astronautics Denver
Lines 8
baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
temporarily in orbit around Jupiter The comet had apparently made a
close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
comet
Ooooh who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO
preprocess doc From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM Research
Lines: 15
In article <N4HY.93Apr5120934@harder.ccr-p.ida.org>, n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier) writes:
|> [1] HOWEVER, I hate economic terrorism and political correctness
|> worse than I hate this policy.
|> [2] A more effective approach is to stop donating
|> to ANY organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues
|> until they end the boycott on funding of scouts.
Can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]?
--
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
after prepro From stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Distribution usa
Organization IBM Research
Lines 15
In article n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier writes
[1] HOWEVER I hate economic terrorism and political correctness
worse than I hate this policy
[2] A more effective approach is to stop donating
to ANY organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues
until they end the boycott on funding of scouts
Can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between [1] and [2]
Rob Strom stromwatsonibmcom 914 7847641
IBM Research 30 Saw Mill River Road PO Box 704 Yorktown Heights NY 10598
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>But, if you were to discuss the merits of racism, or its psycholgical
>>benefits, you would do well to have experienced it personally.
>When you speak of "experiencing religion" you mean someone should believe in
>a religion.
That's right, and this is pretty impossible, right? It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while, just to try out religion, and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best. But again, this is not
possible. Not that religion warrants belief, but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits. There are also some psychological
burdens, too.
>When you speak of "experiencing racism", do you mean that someone should
>believe in racism, or that they should have racist things done to them? For
>parallelism, the former must be what you meant, but it seems to be an odd
>usage of the phrase.
Well, if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism,
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually "believing"
in racism. Of course, the parallel happens to be a poor one, but you
originated it.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
But if you were to discuss the merits of racism or its psycholgical
benefits you would do well to have experienced it personally
When you speak of experiencing religion you mean someone should believe in
a religion
Thats right and this is pretty impossible right It would be ideal if
we could believe for a while just to try out religion and only then
determine which course of thought suits us best But again this is not
possible Not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with
it some psychological benefits There are also some psychological
burdens too
When you speak of experiencing racism do you mean that someone should
believe in racism or that they should have racist things done to them For
parallelism the former must be what you meant but it seems to be an odd
usage of the phrase
Well if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism
they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually believing
in racism Of course the parallel happens to be a poor one but you
originated it
keith
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
>>Unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will, in which
>>case part of the responsibility is yours.
>I'm sorry, but I can't accept that. Unless the rapist was hypnotized or
>something, I view him as solely responsible for his actions.
Not necessarily, especially if the rapist is known as such. For instance,
if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get
snapped, whose fault is it?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
Unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will in which
case part of the responsibility is yours
Im sorry but I cant accept that Unless the rapist was hypnotized or
something I view him as solely responsible for his actions
Not necessarily especially if the rapist is known as such For instance
if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get
snapped whose fault is it
keith
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 21
In article <chrisb.734068710@bAARNie>, chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL) writes...
> killing is wrong
> if you kill we will punish you
> our punishment will be to kill you.
>
>Seems to be lacking in consistency.
Not any more so than
holding people against their will is wrong
if you hold people against their will we will punish you
our punishment will be to hold you against your will
Is there any punishment which isn't something which, if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason, would lead to
punishment? (Fines, I suppose.)
Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
after prepro Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Lines 21
In article chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL writes
killing is wrong
if you kill we will punish you
our punishment will be to kill you
Seems to be lacking in consistency
Not any more so than
holding people against their will is wrong
if you hold people against their will we will punish you
our punishment will be to hold you against your will
Is there any punishment which isnt something which if done by a private
person to another private person for no apparent reason would lead to
punishment Fines I suppose
Jim Lippard LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721
preprocess doc howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!dpw
Subject: Periodic Post of Charley Challenges, #3, with additions
From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 250
New in this version: challenge #5, plus an addendum summarizing
Charley's responses to-date..
-----------------------------------------
*** This is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage
*** Charley Wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently
*** specious claims. I'll continue to re-post periodically until
*** he answers them, publicly indicates that he won't answer them,
*** stops posting to alt.atheism, the alt.atheism community tells
*** me to stop, or I get totally bored. I apologize for the
*** somewhat juvenile nature of this approach, but I'm at a loss
*** to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and
*** seeming intellectual dishonesty.
***
*** This is re-post #3.
Charley,
I can't help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers
to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your
previous posts. I submit that you don't answer them because you
cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic, and I once
again challenge you to prove me wrong. To make the task as easy for
you as possible, I'll present concise re-statements of some of the
questions that you have failed to answer, in the hope that you may
address them one at a time for all to see.
Should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period, I
will re-post this article, with suitable additions and deletions, at
such time that I notice a post by you on another topic. I will repeat
this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or
you cease to post to this newsgroup.
I would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these
questions previously and your answer missed my notice. If you can be
kind enough to re-post or e-mail such articles, I will be only too
pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question, and remove it
from this list.
Now, to the questions...
1. After claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological
patterns that you proposed, then semi-retracting that claim by stating
that you weren't referring to *all* atheists, I asked you to name some
atheists who you feel don't fit your patterns, to show that you indeed
were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of. You failed
to do so. Please do so now.
Question: Can you name any a.a posters who do not fit into your
stereotype?
Here is the context for the question:
>>> This is not true for everyone on this board, and you are out of line
>>> in assuming that it is.
>>
>>YOU, however, deleted the text further along where I said that I didn't mean
>>to imply that everybody's experience was along the same lines.
>
>Whether or not you *mean* to make such implications, you do so
>repeatedly.
>
>Allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint: can you name
>those atheists that you've come across who *do not* fit into the
>patterns that you theorize?
2. You have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that "senses and
reason are all we have to go by", and when pressed, you have implied
that we have an alternative called revelation. I have repeatedly
asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both
experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses
and reason. You failed to do so. Please do so now.
Question: Can you explain what is revelation and how one can
experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent
reasoning?
Here is the context for the question:
>>Revelation is not reason, and if we DO have revelation, then
>>reasoning is NOT all we have.
>First, show me that revelation exists. Second, if revelation is not
>perceived through the senses, how exactly is it perceived? According
>to my Webster's, revelation is "an act of revealing or communicating
>divine truth." Now, tell me how such a thing can be revealed/
>communicated other than via the senses? Tell me how you can interpret
>this revelation other than with reason, that is, using your brain to
>interpret what you are sensing. When I say there is no way for a
>human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as
>interpreted by reason (your brain), it is because this is the simple
>truth. If you have another mechanism of interface, by all means,
>share it with us.
then later...
>>>You CANNOT escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is
>>>our senses and our reason, period.
>>
>>Again, this is indefensible.
>
>No, it is simple truth. I challenge you to show me otherwise.
then later...
>>Few mystics will agree to this assertion, and the common defense of
>>redefining "senses" to absorb (for instance) mystical experiences is
>>begs the question of whether some senses are better than others.
>
>I allow you the broadest definition of senses, to make things easier
>for you. Now, show me that "mystical experiences" exist. Remember,
>you aren't allowed to go by testimony of others (e.g., mystics), since
>you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable - you know, tainted by
>my own bias. Further, once these mystical thingies are absorbed, show
>me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of
>interpretation via that person's reasoning capabilities.
>
>I challenge you to show me these things. If you cannot do so, you
>might as well give up the fight.
then later...
>Let me reiterate, you have NOT explained your interpretation of your
>experiences, so it is not possible for me to have attacked them. In
>point of fact, I specifically challenged you to explain this
>revelation stuff that you were talking about, and I note for the
>record that you appear to have declined my challenge.
>
>*What* is it? *How* is it sensed? *How* is it interpreted? And
>*how* does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit
>of our senses and reasoning abilities? You have answered none of
>these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims. If you
>can't answer them, your claims are entirely specious.
3. You have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by
a.a posters are unverifiable and fantastical. I asked you to identify
one such claim that I have made. You have failed to do so. Please do
so now.
Question: Have I made any claims at all that are unverifiable and
fantastical? If so, please repeat them.
Here is the context for the question:
>>I must thank David Wood a most sensitive and intelligent (if wrong :-))
>>posting.
then later...
>>Likewise, the reference to "unverifiable, fantastical
>>claims" represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to
>>dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group.
>
>Give me your address and I'll be pleased to send you a dictionary.
>Failing that, can you name ONE claim that I have made that is in any
>sense unverifiable or fantastical? I demand that you retract this
>statement if you cannot offer up evidence. If you follow your usual
>pattern of ignoring the challenge, then you are simply an asshole.
4. First you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as
a result of reason, then later you stated that if one accepted the
"axioms" of reason that one couldn't help but become atheist. I asked
you to explain the contradiction. Your only response was a statement
that the question was incoherent, an opinion not shared by others that
I have asked, be they atheist or theist. You have failed to answer
the question. Please do so now.
Question: Do you retract your claim that a.a posters have not become
atheists as a result of reason, despite their testimony to that
effect? If you don't retract that claim, do you retract the
subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably
result in atheism?
Here is the context for the question:
[First quote]
>>...we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is
>>based on reason... it is up to atheists to prove it to me...
>
>then,
>
[Second quote]
>>...but I do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with
>>an atheistic point of view.
5. First, you claimed that you would (probably) not answer these
Challenges because they contained too much in the way of "included
text" from previous posts. Later, you implied that you wouldn't
respond because I was putting words in your mouth. Please clarify
this seeming contradiction.
Question: Do you prefer to respond to Challenges that include context
from your own posts, or that I paraphrase your positions in order to
avoid "included text"?
Here is the context for the question:
First you said:
>>My ordinary rules are that I don't read articles over over 150 lines
>>or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first
>>screen. THese are not rules of morality, but practicality.
then later...
>>If someone is not going to argue with MY version of MY position, then
>>they cannot be argued with.
As usual, your responses are awaited with anticipation.
--Dave Wood
p.s., For the record, below is a compilation of Charley's responses to
these challenges to date.
3/18/93
>>This makes no sense to me at all; it gives the appearance either of utter
>>incoherence, or of answering some question of Mr. Wood's imagination.
3/31/93 (#1)
>>Mr. Wood, I do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on
>>the net requires any response whatsoever. At some point I might read and
>>respond to your article, and then again, I might not. My ordinary rules are
>>that I don't read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is
>>nothing but included text on the first screen. THese are not rules of
>>morality, but practicality.
3/31/93 (#2)
>>I left out something else I don't respond to.
>>...
>>Utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments
>>(meta-arguments, as some call them).
4/3/93
>>When I have to start saying "that's not what I said", and the response is
>>"did so!", there's no reason to continue. If someone is not going to argue
>>with MY version of MY position, then they cannot be argued with.
after prepro howlandrestonansneteuropaenggtefsdcomfs7ececmuedunewsseicmuedudpw
Subject Periodic Post of Charley Challenges 3 with additions
From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 250
New in this version challenge 5 plus an addendum summarizing
Charleys responses todate
This is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage
Charley Wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently
specious claims Ill continue to repost periodically until
he answers them publicly indicates that he wont answer them
stops posting to altatheism the altatheism community tells
me to stop or I get totally bored I apologize for the
somewhat juvenile nature of this approach but Im at a loss
to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and
seeming intellectual dishonesty
This is repost 3
Charley
I cant help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers
to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your
previous posts I submit that you dont answer them because you
cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic and I once
again challenge you to prove me wrong To make the task as easy for
you as possible Ill present concise restatements of some of the
questions that you have failed to answer in the hope that you may
address them one at a time for all to see
Should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period I
will repost this article with suitable additions and deletions at
such time that I notice a post by you on another topic I will repeat
this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or
you cease to post to this newsgroup
I would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these
questions previously and your answer missed my notice If you can be
kind enough to repost or email such articles I will be only too
pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question and remove it
from this list
Now to the questions
1 After claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological
patterns that you proposed then semiretracting that claim by stating
that you werent referring to all atheists I asked you to name some
atheists who you feel dont fit your patterns to show that you indeed
were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of You failed
to do so Please do so now
Question Can you name any aa posters who do not fit into your
stereotype
Here is the context for the question
This is not true for everyone on this board and you are out of line
in assuming that it is
YOU however deleted the text further along where I said that I didnt mean
to imply that everybodys experience was along the same lines
Whether or not you mean to make such implications you do so
repeatedly
Allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name
those atheists that youve come across who do not fit into the
patterns that you theorize
2 You have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that senses and
reason are all we have to go by and when pressed you have implied
that we have an alternative called revelation I have repeatedly
asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both
experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses
and reason You failed to do so Please do so now
Question Can you explain what is revelation and how one can
experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent
reasoning
Here is the context for the question
Revelation is not reason and if we DO have revelation then
reasoning is NOT all we have
First show me that revelation exists Second if revelation is not
perceived through the senses how exactly is it perceived According
to my Websters revelation is an act of revealing or communicating
divine truth Now tell me how such a thing can be revealed
communicated other than via the senses Tell me how you can interpret
this revelation other than with reason that is using your brain to
interpret what you are sensing When I say there is no way for a
human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as
interpreted by reason your brain it is because this is the simple
truth If you have another mechanism of interface by all means
share it with us
then later
You CANNOT escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is
our senses and our reason period
Again this is indefensible
No it is simple truth I challenge you to show me otherwise
then later
Few mystics will agree to this assertion and the common defense of
redefining senses to absorb for instance mystical experiences is
begs the question of whether some senses are better than others
I allow you the broadest definition of senses to make things easier
for you Now show me that mystical experiences exist Remember
you arent allowed to go by testimony of others eg mystics since
you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable you know tainted by
my own bias Further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show
me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of
interpretation via that persons reasoning capabilities
I challenge you to show me these things If you cannot do so you
might as well give up the fight
then later
Let me reiterate you have NOT explained your interpretation of your
experiences so it is not possible for me to have attacked them In
point of fact I specifically challenged you to explain this
revelation stuff that you were talking about and I note for the
record that you appear to have declined my challenge
What is it How is it sensed How is it interpreted And
how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit
of our senses and reasoning abilities You have answered none of
these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims If you
cant answer them your claims are entirely specious
3 You have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by
aa posters are unverifiable and fantastical I asked you to identify
one such claim that I have made You have failed to do so Please do
so now
Question Have I made any claims at all that are unverifiable and
fantastical If so please repeat them
Here is the context for the question
I must thank David Wood a most sensitive and intelligent if wrong
posting
then later
Likewise the reference to unverifiable fantastical
claims represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to
dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group
Give me your address and Ill be pleased to send you a dictionary
Failing that can you name ONE claim that I have made that is in any
sense unverifiable or fantastical I demand that you retract this
statement if you cannot offer up evidence If you follow your usual
pattern of ignoring the challenge then you are simply an asshole
4 First you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as
a result of reason then later you stated that if one accepted the
axioms of reason that one couldnt help but become atheist I asked
you to explain the contradiction Your only response was a statement
that the question was incoherent an opinion not shared by others that
I have asked be they atheist or theist You have failed to answer
the question Please do so now
Question Do you retract your claim that aa posters have not become
atheists as a result of reason despite their testimony to that
effect If you dont retract that claim do you retract the
subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably
result in atheism
Here is the context for the question
[First quote]
we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is
based on reason it is up to atheists to prove it to me
then
[Second quote]
but I do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with
an atheistic point of view
5 First you claimed that you would probably not answer these
Challenges because they contained too much in the way of included
text from previous posts Later you implied that you wouldnt
respond because I was putting words in your mouth Please clarify
this seeming contradiction
Question Do you prefer to respond to Challenges that include context
from your own posts or that I paraphrase your positions in order to
avoid included text
Here is the context for the question
First you said
My ordinary rules are that I dont read articles over over 150 lines
or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first
screen THese are not rules of morality but practicality
then later
If someone is not going to argue with MY version of MY position then
they cannot be argued with
As usual your responses are awaited with anticipation
Dave Wood
ps For the record below is a compilation of Charleys responses to
these challenges to date
31893
This makes no sense to me at all it gives the appearance either of utter
incoherence or of answering some question of Mr Woods imagination
33193 1
Mr Wood I do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on
the net requires any response whatsoever At some point I might read and
respond to your article and then again I might not My ordinary rules are
that I dont read articles over over 150 lines or articles in which there is
nothing but included text on the first screen THese are not rules of
morality but practicality
33193 2
I left out something else I dont respond to
Utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments
metaarguments as some call them
4393
When I have to start saying thats not what I said and the response is
did so theres no reason to continue If someone is not going to argue
with MY version of MY position then they cannot be argued with
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Allah Akbar and Praise the Lord.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 15
Maddi Hausmann (madhaus@netcom.com) wrote:
:
: And thank the Lord that Bill Connor has returned to set
: us straight! Now I know I can die happy when my Lexus
: SE400 wipes out on that rain-slick curve in 1997. The
: rest of you had best straighten up, because your time
: is even more limited. Most of you are going in the Flu
: of 1994.
Maddi,
You know you're glad to have me visit ...
But I won't stay long this time, just shopping around.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Allah Akbar and Praise the Lord
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 15
Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom wrote
And thank the Lord that Bill Connor has returned to set
us straight Now I know I can die happy when my Lexus
SE400 wipes out on that rainslick curve in 1997 The
rest of you had best straighten up because your time
is even more limited Most of you are going in the Flu
of 1994
Maddi
You know youre glad to have me visit
But I wont stay long this time just shopping around
Bill
preprocess doc From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 40
cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
:
[ . . . . . ]
:
: Personally, I feel that since religion have such a poweful
: psychological effect, we should let theists be. But the problem is that
: religions cause enormous harm to non-believers and to humanity as a whole
: (holy wars, inquisitions, inter-religious hatred, impedence of science
: & intellectual progress, us-&-them attitudes etc etc. Need I say more?).
: I really don't know what we can do about them. Any comments?
:
I have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons
attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax
anybody else. This seems to be ok for atheists. You don't get an atheist
knocking on your door, stopping you in the airport, or handing out
literature at a social event. Theists seem to think that thier form of
happy should work for others and try to make it so.
My sister is a
born again, and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family
for several years. She finally got the clue that she couldn't help.
During that period she bought me "I was atheist, now I'm Xtian" books
for my birthday and Xmas several times. Our birthday cards would contain
verses. It was a problem. I told my mom that I was going to send my
sister an atheist piece of reading material. I got a "Don't you dare".
My mom wasn't religious. Why did she insist that I not send it ??
Because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to
preach, non-religion should be self contained. What a crock of shit.
I finally told my sister that I didn't find her way of life attractive.
I have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then.
I'm sick of religious types being pampered, looked out for, and WORST
OF ALL . . . . respected more than atheists. There must be an end
in sight.
Dave Fuller
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com
after prepro From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 40
cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng dan writes
[ ]
Personally I feel that since religion have such a poweful
psychological effect we should let theists be But the problem is that
religions cause enormous harm to nonbelievers and to humanity as a whole
holy wars inquisitions interreligious hatred impedence of science
intellectual progress usthem attitudes etc etc Need I say more
I really dont know what we can do about them Any comments
I have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons
attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax
anybody else This seems to be ok for atheists You dont get an atheist
knocking on your door stopping you in the airport or handing out
literature at a social event Theists seem to think that thier form of
happy should work for others and try to make it so
My sister is a
born again and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family
for several years She finally got the clue that she couldnt help
During that period she bought me I was atheist now Im Xtian books
for my birthday and Xmas several times Our birthday cards would contain
verses It was a problem I told my mom that I was going to send my
sister an atheist piece of reading material I got a Dont you dare
My mom wasnt religious Why did she insist that I not send it
Because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to
preach nonreligion should be self contained What a crock of shit
I finally told my sister that I didnt find her way of life attractive
I have seen exactly 0 effort from her on trying to convert me since then
Im sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and WORST
OF ALL respected more than atheists There must be an end
in sight
Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Galileo Update - 04/15/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 113
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from Neal Ausman, Galileo Mission Director
GALILEO
MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
POST-LAUNCH
April 9 - 15, 1993
SPACECRAFT
1. On April 9, real-time commands were sent, as planned, to reacquire
celestial reference after completion of the Low Gain Antenna (LGA-2)
swing/Dual Drive Actuator (DDA) hammer activities.
2. On April 9, the EJ-1 (Earth-Jupiter #1) sequence memory load was uplinked
to the spacecraft without incident. This sequence covers spacecraft activity
from April 12, 1993 to June 14, 1993 and includes a window for the Radio Relay
Antenna (RRA) slew test on April 28, 1993. The command loss timer was set to
11 days as a part of this sequence memory load.
3. On April 12 and 15, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss
timer to 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
4. On April 12, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV), Dust Detector (DDS), and Magnetometer
(MAG) instruments. Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly.
5. On April 12, an Ultra-Stable Oscillator (USO) test was performed to verify
the health status of the USO and to collect gravitational red shift experiment
data; long term trend analysis is continuing.
6. On April 14, a 40bps modulation index test was performed to determine the
optimal Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) when transmitting at 40bps. Preliminary
analysis of the data suggests that the present pre-launch selected modulation
index is near the optimal level.
7. On April 15, cruise science Memory Readouts (MROs) were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer (EUV) and Magnetometer (MAG) instrument.
Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly.
8. On April 15, a periodic RPM (Retro-Propulsion Module) 10-Newton thruster
flushing maintenance activity was performed; all 12 thrusters were flushed
during the activity. Thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal.
9. The AC/DC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant
changes (greater than 25 DN) throughout this period. The AC measurement reads
19 DN (4.3 volts). The DC measurement reads 111 DN (12.9 volts). These
measurements are consistent with the model developed by the AC/DC special
anomaly team.
10. The Spacecraft status as of April 15, 1993, is as follows:
a) System Power Margin - 60 watts
b) Spin Configuration - Dual-Spin
c) Spin Rate/Sensor - 3.15rpm/Star Scanner
d) Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 18 degrees
off-sun (lagging) and 6 degrees off-earth (leading)
e) Downlink telemetry rate/antenna- 40bps(coded)/LGA-1
f) General Thermal Control - all temperatures within
acceptable range
g) RPM Tank Pressures - all within acceptable range
h) Orbiter Science- Instruments powered on are the PWS,
EUV, UVS, EPD, MAG, HIC, and DDS
i) Probe/RRH - powered off, temperatures within
acceptable range
j) CMD Loss Timer Setting - 264 hours
Time To Initiation - 260 hours
GDS (Ground Data Systems):
1. Galileo participated in a second DSN (Deep Space Network) acceptance test
for the DSN Telemetry Phase 3 Upgrade on April 13, 1993, using CTA-21
(Compatibility Test Area 21). The purpose of this test was to verify
the flow of Galileo telemetry data through the new Telemetry Group Controller
(TGC) and the Telemetry Channel Assembly (TCA). The TGC/TCA is the replacement
for the current Telemetry Processing Assembly (TPA). Seven different telemetry
rates were run for this test; all ran well on both the MTS (MCCC Telemetry
Subsystem) and the AMMOS MGDS V18.0 GIF with the exception of 10bps. The
10bps rate had some trouble staying in lock; it appears the TGC/TCA was
not metering the data correctly. Further comparisons between the MGDS and MTS
data from this test are being conducted. MVT (Mission Verification Test) of
the TGC/TCA system is expected to begin May 16, 1993.
TRAJECTORY
As of noon Thursday, April 15, 1993, the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows:
Distance from Earth 152,606,000 km (1.02 AU)
Distance from Sun 277,519,800 km (1.86 AU)
Heliocentric Speed 93,400 km per hour
Distance from Jupiter 543,973,900 km
Round Trip Light Time 17 minutes, 4 seconds
SPECIAL TOPIC
1. As of April 15, 1993, a total of 70184 real-time commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch. Of these, 65076 were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the real-time command process.
In the past week, 7 real time commands were transmitted: 6 were initiated in
the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process.
Major command activities included commands to reacquire celestial reference,
uplink the EJ-1 sequence memory load, and reset the command loss timer.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Galileo Update 041593
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 113
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from Neal Ausman Galileo Mission Director
GALILEO
MISSION DIRECTOR STATUS REPORT
POSTLAUNCH
April 9 15 1993
SPACECRAFT
1 On April 9 realtime commands were sent as planned to reacquire
celestial reference after completion of the Low Gain Antenna LGA2
swingDual Drive Actuator DDA hammer activities
2 On April 9 the EJ1 EarthJupiter 1 sequence memory load was uplinked
to the spacecraft without incident This sequence covers spacecraft activity
from April 12 1993 to June 14 1993 and includes a window for the Radio Relay
Antenna RRA slew test on April 28 1993 The command loss timer was set to
11 days as a part of this sequence memory load
3 On April 12 and 15 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss
timer to 264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
4 On April 12 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV Dust Detector DDS and Magnetometer
MAG instruments Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received
properly
5 On April 12 an UltraStable Oscillator USO test was performed to verify
the health status of the USO and to collect gravitational red shift experiment
data long term trend analysis is continuing
6 On April 14 a 40bps modulation index test was performed to determine the
optimal SignaltoNoise Ratio SNR when transmitting at 40bps Preliminary
analysis of the data suggests that the present prelaunch selected modulation
index is near the optimal level
7 On April 15 cruise science Memory Readouts MROs were performed for the
Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer EUV and Magnetometer MAG instrument
Preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly
8 On April 15 a periodic RPM RetroPropulsion Module 10Newton thruster
flushing maintenance activity was performed all 12 thrusters were flushed
during the activity Thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal
9 The ACDC bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant
changes greater than 25 DN throughout this period The AC measurement reads
19 DN 43 volts The DC measurement reads 111 DN 129 volts These
measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ACDC special
anomaly team
10 The Spacecraft status as of April 15 1993 is as follows
a System Power Margin 60 watts
b Spin Configuration DualSpin
c Spin RateSensor 315rpmStar Scanner
d Spacecraft Attitude is approximately 18 degrees
offsun lagging and 6 degrees offearth leading
e Downlink telemetry rateantenna 40bpscodedLGA1
f General Thermal Control all temperatures within
acceptable range
g RPM Tank Pressures all within acceptable range
h Orbiter Science Instruments powered on are the PWS
EUV UVS EPD MAG HIC and DDS
i ProbeRRH powered off temperatures within
acceptable range
j CMD Loss Timer Setting 264 hours
Time To Initiation 260 hours
GDS Ground Data Systems
1 Galileo participated in a second DSN Deep Space Network acceptance test
for the DSN Telemetry Phase 3 Upgrade on April 13 1993 using CTA21
Compatibility Test Area 21 The purpose of this test was to verify
the flow of Galileo telemetry data through the new Telemetry Group Controller
TGC and the Telemetry Channel Assembly TCA The TGCTCA is the replacement
for the current Telemetry Processing Assembly TPA Seven different telemetry
rates were run for this test all ran well on both the MTS MCCC Telemetry
Subsystem and the AMMOS MGDS V180 GIF with the exception of 10bps The
10bps rate had some trouble staying in lock it appears the TGCTCA was
not metering the data correctly Further comparisons between the MGDS and MTS
data from this test are being conducted MVT Mission Verification Test of
the TGCTCA system is expected to begin May 16 1993
TRAJECTORY
As of noon Thursday April 15 1993 the Galileo Spacecraft trajectory
status was as follows
Distance from Earth 152606000 km 102 AU
Distance from Sun 277519800 km 186 AU
Heliocentric Speed 93400 km per hour
Distance from Jupiter 543973900 km
Round Trip Light Time 17 minutes 4 seconds
SPECIAL TOPIC
1 As of April 15 1993 a total of 70184 realtime commands have been
transmitted to Galileo since Launch Of these 65076 were initiated in the
sequence design process and 5108 initiated in the realtime command process
In the past week 7 real time commands were transmitted 6 were initiated in
the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process
Major command activities included commands to reacquire celestial reference
uplink the EJ1 sequence memory load and reset the command loss timer
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1qlfd4INN935@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>>>Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
>>>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
>>So, why "must" they have such laws?
>
>The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."
>
>If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
>etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
>into chaos.
The "System" refered to a "moral system". You havn't shown any
reason that chimps "must" have a moral system.
Except if you would like to redefine everything.
---
" Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "
John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
So why must they have such laws
The quotation marks should enclose laws not must
If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos
The System refered to a moral system You havnt shown any
reason that chimps must have a moral system
Except if you would like to redefine everything
Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken
John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 52
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>>Explain to me
>>>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
>>For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
>Then not murdering would have no moral significance, since there
>would be nothing voluntary about it.
See, there you go again, saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is "voluntary." Why do you think this?
And anyway, humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts.
>>So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
>>beings mimics theirs?
>You are starting to get the point. Mimicry is not necessarily the
>same as the action being imitated. A Parrot saying "Pretty Polly"
>isn't necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly.
You are attaching too many things to the term "moral," I think.
Let's try this: is it "good" that animals of the same species
don't kill each other. Or, do you think this is right?
Or do you think that animals are machines, and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong?
>>Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but
>>they don't.
>They do. I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
>this, but you seem to have a very short memory.
Those weren't arbitrary killings. They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot.
>>Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
>>most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
>I'm saying:
> "There must be the possibility that the organism - it's not
> just people we are talking about - can consider alternatives."
>It's right there in the posting you are replying to.
Yes it was, but I still don't understand your distinctions. What
do you mean by "consider?" Can a small child be moral? How about
a gorilla? A dolphin? A platypus? Where is the line drawn? Does
the being need to be self aware?
What *do* you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from (arbitrarily) killing each other? Don't
you find the fact that they don't at all significant?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
For example if it were instinctive not to murder
Then not murdering would have no moral significance since there
would be nothing voluntary about it
See there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant
if it is voluntary Why do you think this
And anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts
So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs
You are starting to get the point Mimicry is not necessarily the
same as the action being imitated A Parrot saying Pretty Polly
isnt necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of Polly
You are attaching too many things to the term moral I think
Lets try this is it good that animals of the same species
dont kill each other Or do you think this is right
Or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do
is either right nor wrong
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but
they dont
They do I and other posters have given you many examples of exactly
this but you seem to have a very short memory
Those werent arbitrary killings They were slayings related to some sort
of mating ritual or whatnot
Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
Im saying
There must be the possibility that the organism its not
just people we are talking about can consider alternatives
Its right there in the posting you are replying to
Yes it was but I still dont understand your distinctions What
do you mean by consider Can a small child be moral How about
a gorilla A dolphin A platypus Where is the line drawn Does
the being need to be self aware
What do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of
the same species from arbitrarily killing each other Dont
you find the fact that they dont at all significant
keith
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 18
> Oh, this all sounds so nice! Everyone helping each other and always smiling
> and fluffy bunnies everywhere. Wake up! People are just not like that. It
> seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
> upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people. Isn't it obvious from
> places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
> then they are going to be attracted to positions of power? Sounds like a
> recipe for disaster.
Looking at historical evidence such 'perfect utopian' islamic states
didn't survive. I agree, people are people, and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state, it takes
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules --
again.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 18
Oh this all sounds so nice Everyone helping each other and always smiling
and fluffy bunnies everywhere Wake up People are just not like that It
seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people Isnt it obvious from
places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
then they are going to be attracted to positions of power Sounds like a
recipe for disaster
Looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states
didnt survive I agree people are people and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules
again
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Biblical Rape
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 14
In article <1993Apr05.174537.14962@watson.ibm.com>
strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>
>In article <16BA7F16C.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>, I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>
>I didn't have time to read the rest of the posting, but
>I had to respond to this.
>
>I am absolutely NOT a "Messianic Jew".
>
Another mistake. Sorry, I should have read alt.,messianic more carefully.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Biblical Rape
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 14
In article 1993Apr0517453714962watsonibmcom
stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
In article 16BA7F16CI3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
I didnt have time to read the rest of the posting but
I had to respond to this
I am absolutely NOT a Messianic Jew
Another mistake Sorry I should have read altmessianic more carefully
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: HLV for Fred (was Re: Prefab Space Station?)
Article-I.D.: iti.1993Apr6.124456.14123
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 22
In article <C5133A.Gzx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>>[Titan III is the cheapest US launcher on a $/lb basis]
>In that case it's rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
>market. Is there a single Titan III on order?
They have a few problems. The biggest technical problem is the need to find
two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch.
They also don't show much interest in commercial launches. There is more
money to be made churning out Titan IV's for the government. After all,
it isn't every day you find a sucker, er, customer who thinks paying
three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea!
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves |
| aws@iti.org | nothing undone" |
+----------------------71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re HLV for Fred was Re Prefab Space Station
ArticleID iti1993Apr612445614123
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 22
In article jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
[Titan III is the cheapest US launcher on a lb basis]
In that case its rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial
market Is there a single Titan III on order
They have a few problems The biggest technical problem is the need to find
two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch
They also dont show much interest in commercial launches There is more
money to be made churning out Titan IVs for the government After all
it isnt every day you find a sucker er customer who thinks paying
three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea
Allen
Allen W Sherzer A great man is one who does nothing but leaves
awsitiorg nothing undone
71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: mrw9e@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Michael Robert Williams)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 25
In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
>In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> James P. Goltz, goltz@mimi.UU.NET
>writes:
>> Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.
>
>It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by
>Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is,
>but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
>Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time,
>but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later,
>when
>Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?
>
>Leigh
Nope, I haven't seen the film, but Taylor's biography ("The Curve of
Binding Energy") contains a short section on Orion and this test flight.
Apparently it was quite impressi, and got von Braun very excited.
In Real Life:Mike Williams | Perpetual Grad Student
e-mail :mrw9e@virginia.edu| - It's not just a job, it's an indenture
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you ever have a world of your own, plan ahead- don't eat it." ST:TNG
after prepro From mrw9efultonseasVirginiaEDU Michael Robert Williams
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization University of Virginia
Lines 25
In article 1993Apr1705333315696sfuca Leigh Palmer writes
In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET James P Goltz goltzmimiUUNET
writes
Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept
It was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago I dont know how wellknown this is
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958 I was working at General Atomic at the time
but I didnt learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later
when
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it
Leigh
Nope I havent seen the film but Taylors biography The Curve of
Binding Energy contains a short section on Orion and this test flight
Apparently it was quite impressi and got von Braun very excited
In Real LifeMike Williams Perpetual Grad Student
email mrw9evirginiaedu Its not just a job its an indenture
If you ever have a world of your own plan ahead dont eat it STTNG
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 18
In article <1raejd$bf4@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software
>was a major factor in the loss of 51-L. to wit, that during the
>wind shear event, the Flight control software indicated a series
>of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
>resonance leading to an overstress of the struts.
This sounds like another of Ali AbuTaha's 57 different "real causes" of
the Challenger accident. As far as I know, there has never been the
slightest shred of evidence for a "harmonic resonance" having occurred.
The windshear-induced maneuvering probably *did* contribute to opening
up the leak path in the SRB joint again -- it seems to have sealed itself
after the puffs of smoke during liftoff -- but the existing explanation
of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately.
--
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Level 5
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 18
In article 1raejdbf4accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51L to wit that during the
wind shear event the Flight control software indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance leading to an overstress of the struts
This sounds like another of Ali AbuTahas 57 different real causes of
the Challenger accident As far as I know there has never been the
slightest shred of evidence for a harmonic resonance having occurred
The windshearinduced maneuvering probably did contribute to opening
up the leak path in the SRB joint again it seems to have sealed itself
after the puffs of smoke during liftoff but the existing explanation
of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS Dick Dunn henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgi!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
<93089.050046MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> <1pa6ntINNs5d@gap.caltech.edu>
<1993Mar30.205919.26390@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <1pcnp3INNpom@gap.caltech.edu> <1pdjip$jsi@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pi9jkINNqe2@gap.caltec
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20
In article <1pi9jkINNqe2@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >>>How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
|> >>>default? ... Where's the cutoff point?
|> >>I don't know where the exact cutoff is, but it is at least after a few
|> >>years, and surely after 40 years.
|> >Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
|> >in population makeup?
|>
|> Specifically, which changes are you talking about? Are you arguing
|> that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
|> population now than 40 years ago?
No, do I have to? I'm just commenting that it makes very
little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default.
Seen any steam trains recently?
jon.
after prepro wupostuunetoliveasgigatesgifidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re Pompous ass
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
93089050046MVS104psuvmpsuedu 1pa6ntINNs5dgapcaltechedu
1993Mar3020591926390blazecsjhuedu 1pcnp3INNpomgapcaltechedu 1pdjipjsifidoasdsgicom 1pi9jkINNqe2gapcaltec
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20
In article 1pi9jkINNqe2gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
default Wheres the cutoff point
I dont know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few
years and surely after 40 years
Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
in population makeup
Specifically which changes are you talking about Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago
No do I have to Im just commenting that it makes very
little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default
Seen any steam trains recently
jon
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: DC-Y trajectory simulation
Keywords: SSTO, Delta Clipper
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 91
I've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. I've
transcribed some of my notes below. Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine. Permission is
granted to copy this without restriction.
Note for newbies: The Delta Clipper project is geared towards producing a
single staget to orbit, reusable launch vehicle. The DC-X vehicle is a 1/3
scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in SSTO. It is
currently undergoing tests. The DC-Y vehicle would be a full scale
experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit. It has not yet been funded.
On April 6th, Rocky Nelson of MacDonnell Douglas gave a talk entitled
"Optimizing Techniques for Advanced Space Missions" here at the University of
Illinois. Mr Nelson's job involves using software to simulate trajectories and
determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements. Although he is
not directly involved with the Delta Clipper project, he has spent time with
them recently, using his software for their applications. He thus used
the DC-Y project for most of his examples. While I don't think the details
of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers (I hope
they aren't - I fell asleep during that part), I think that many of you will
be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples.
The first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit. The
main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 Gs. I assume that
this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints, but I
did not verify that. The Delta Clipper Y version has 8 engines - 4 boosters
and 4 sustainers. The boosters, which have a lower isp, are shut down in
mid-flight. Thus, one critical question is when to shut them down. Mr Nelson
showed the following plot of acceleration vs time:
______
3 G /| / |
/ | / | As ASCII graphs go, this is actually fairly
/ | / | good. The big difference is that the lines
2 G / |/ | made by the / should be curves which are
/ | concave up. The data is only approximate, as
/ | the graph wasn't up for very long.
1 G / |
|
|
0 G |
^ ^
~100 sec ~400 sec
As mentioned before, a critical constraint is that G levels must be kept below
3. Initially, all eight engines are started. As the vehicle burns fuel the
accelleration increases. As it gets close to 3G, the booster engines are
throtled back. However, they quickly become inefficient at low power, so it
soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether. This causes the dip in
accelleration at about 100 seconds. Eventually the remaining sustainer engines
bring the G level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut
out entirely.
The engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit. The trajectory is aimed
for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of
air drag slow the vehicle slightly, thus lowering the final altitude to
that desired.
Questions from the audience: (paraphrased)
Q: Would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs, rather than
all at once?
A: Very perceptive. Worth considering. They have not yet done the simulation. Shutting down all four was part of the problem as given.
Q: So what was the final payload for this trajectory?
A: Can't tell us. "Read Aviation Leak." He also apparently had a good
propulsion example, but was told not to use it.
My question: Does anyone know if this security is due to SDIO protecting
national security or MD protecting their own interests?
The second example was reentry simulation, from orbit to just before the pitch
up maneuver. The biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating, and
the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange. He showed graphs
of heating using two different models, to show that both were very similar,
and I think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate.
The end result was that for a polar orbit landing at KSC, the DC-Y would have
about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start it's reentry profile about
60 degrees south latitude.
I would have asked about the landing maneuvers, but he didn't know about that
aspect of the flight profile.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject DCY trajectory simulation
Keywords SSTO Delta Clipper
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 91
Ive been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest Ive
transcribed some of my notes below Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine Permission is
granted to copy this without restriction
Note for newbies The Delta Clipper project is geared towards producing a
single staget to orbit reusable launch vehicle The DCX vehicle is a 13
scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in SSTO It is
currently undergoing tests The DCY vehicle would be a full scale
experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit It has not yet been funded
On April 6th Rocky Nelson of MacDonnell Douglas gave a talk entitled
Optimizing Techniques for Advanced Space Missions here at the University of
Illinois Mr Nelsons job involves using software to simulate trajectories and
determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements Although he is
not directly involved with the Delta Clipper project he has spent time with
them recently using his software for their applications He thus used
the DCY project for most of his examples While I dont think the details
of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers I hope
they arent I fell asleep during that part I think that many of you will
be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples
The first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit The
main restriction is that acceleration must remain below 3 Gs I assume that
this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints but I
did not verify that The Delta Clipper Y version has 8 engines 4 boosters
and 4 sustainers The boosters which have a lower isp are shut down in
midflight Thus one critical question is when to shut them down Mr Nelson
showed the following plot of acceleration vs time
______
3 G
As ASCII graphs go this is actually fairly
good The big difference is that the lines
2 G made by the should be curves which are
concave up The data is only approximate as
the graph wasnt up for very long
1 G
0 G
^ ^
100 sec 400 sec
As mentioned before a critical constraint is that G levels must be kept below
3 Initially all eight engines are started As the vehicle burns fuel the
accelleration increases As it gets close to 3G the booster engines are
throtled back However they quickly become inefficient at low power so it
soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether This causes the dip in
accelleration at about 100 seconds Eventually the remaining sustainer engines
bring the G level back up to about 3 and then hold it there until they cut
out entirely
The engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit The trajectory is aimed
for an altitude slightly higher than the 100nm desired and the last vestiges of
air drag slow the vehicle slightly thus lowering the final altitude to
that desired
Questions from the audience paraphrased
Q Would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs rather than
all at once
A Very perceptive Worth considering They have not yet done the simulation Shutting down all four was part of the problem as given
Q So what was the final payload for this trajectory
A Cant tell us Read Aviation Leak He also apparently had a good
propulsion example but was told not to use it
My question Does anyone know if this security is due to SDIO protecting
national security or MD protecting their own interests
The second example was reentry simulation from orbit to just before the pitch
up maneuver The biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating and
the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange He showed graphs
of heating using two different models to show that both were very similar
and I think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate
The end result was that for a polar orbit landing at KSC the DCY would have
about 30 degrees of crossrange and would start its reentry profile about
60 degrees south latitude
I would have asked about the landing maneuvers but he didnt know about that
aspect of the flight profile
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. Where are they?
<1993Apr24.221344.1@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>
Lines: 8
If all of these things have been detected in space, has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors?
That is, is there some mechanism (cosmic rays, whatever) that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things?
Graydon
after prepro Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters Where are they
1993Apr242213441vax1mankatomsusedu
Lines 8
If all of these things have been detected in space has anyone
looked into possible problems with the detectors
That is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that
could cause the dector to _think_ it was seeing one of these
things
Graydon
preprocess doc Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 27
In article <chrisb.734064380@bAARNie>, chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL) writes...
>jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>
>>My syllogism is of the form:
>>A is B.
>>C is A.
>>Therefore C is B.
>
>>This is a logically valid construction.
>
>>Your syllogism, however, is of the form:
>>A is B.
>>C is B.
>>Therefore C is A.
>
>>Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction,
>>and your comments don't apply.
If all of those are "is"'s of identity, both syllogisms are valid.
If, however, B is a predicate, then the second syllogism is invalid.
(The first syllogism, as you have pointed out, is valid--whether B
is a predicate or designates an individual.)
Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
after prepro Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Lines 27
In article chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL writes
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
My syllogism is of the form
A is B
C is A
Therefore C is B
This is a logically valid construction
Your syllogism however is of the form
A is B
C is B
Therefore C is A
Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction
and your comments dont apply
If all of those are iss of identity both syllogisms are valid
If however B is a predicate then the second syllogism is invalid
The first syllogism as you have pointed out is validwhether B
is a predicate or designates an individual
Jim Lippard LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 20
In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com>,
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) wrote:
> He is right. Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
> done "in the name of religion", does not mean that it actually followed
> the religion. He will always point to the "ideal" and say that it wasn't
> followed so it can't be the reason for the event. There really is no way
> to argue with him, so why bother. Sure, you may get upset because his
> answer is blind and not supported factually - but he will win every time
> with his little argument. I don't think there will be any postings from
> me in direct response to one of his.
Hey! Glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this
newsgroup. I agree 100% on the statement above, you might argue with
Bobby for eons, and he still does not get it, so the best thing is
to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re New Member
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 20
In article
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller wrote
He is right Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed
the religion He will always point to the ideal and say that it wasnt
followed so it cant be the reason for the event There really is no way
to argue with him so why bother Sure you may get upset because his
answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time
with his little argument I dont think there will be any postings from
me in direct response to one of his
Hey Glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this
newsgroup I agree 100 on the statement above you might argue with
Bobby for eons and he still does not get it so the best thing is
to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Space Clippers launched
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 14
> SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
When I first saw this, I thought for a second that it was a headline from
The Star about the pliers found in the SRB recently.
Y'know, sometimes they have wire-cutters built in :-)
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Space Clippers launched
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 14
SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
When I first saw this I thought for a second that it was a headline from
The Star about the pliers found in the SRB recently
Yknow sometimes they have wirecutters built in
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: house@helios.usq.EDU.AU (ron house)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: University of Southern Queensland
Lines: 42
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
I _know_ I shouldn't get involved, but... :-)
[bit deleted]
> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
>die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
>someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
>heal people.
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
>this right away.
> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
>real thing.
Righto, DAN, try this one with your Cornflakes...
The book says that Muhammad was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
modern day Mad Mahdi) or he was actually who he said he was.
Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
how his son-in-law made the sun stand still. Call me a fool, but I believe
he did make the sun stand still.
Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
anyone who is drawn to the Mad Mahdi is obviously a fool, logical people see
this right away.
Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
real thing.
--
Ron House. USQ
(house@helios.usq.edu.au) Toowoomba, Australia.
after prepro From househeliosusqEDUAU ron house
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization University of Southern Queensland
Lines 42
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
I _know_ I shouldnt get involved but
[bit deleted]
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Righto DAN try this one with your Cornflakes
The book says that Muhammad was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Mad Mahdi or he was actually who he said he was
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
how his soninlaw made the sun stand still Call me a fool but I believe
he did make the sun stand still
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to the Mad Mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Ron House USQ
househeliosusqeduau Toowoomba Australia
preprocess doc From: davidk@welch.jhu.edu (David "Go-Go" Kitaguchi)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Nntp-Posting-Host: uss1.welch.jhu.edu
Reply-To: davidk@welch.jhu.edu
Organization: Welch Medical Library
Lines: 21
In article 65934@mimsy.umd.edu, mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
:PNanci Ann Miller writes:
:P
:P>My favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is
:P>that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
:P>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and
:P>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right,
:P>literally. If not, then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
:P>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
:P>originally inspired by God?
:P
:PThe "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak. Comparison of the
:Pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
:Phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia. This
:Pshouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
:Pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
Well corrupted the first time is good enough. Seeing that the bible was constructed
400 years after Jesus's death, in the text of merchants (ie-owe this and owe that) I wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously. Obviously it was not intended for such nonsense, otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize (sp)
off of the Asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense.
after prepro From davidkwelchjhuedu David GoGo Kitaguchi
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
NntpPostingHost uss1welchjhuedu
ReplyTo davidkwelchjhuedu
Organization Welch Medical Library
Lines 21
In article 65934mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
PNanci Ann Miller writes
P
PMy favorite reply to the you are being too literalminded complaint is
Pthat if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
Pimportant to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and
Pscribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right
Pliterally If not then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
Pthat has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
Poriginally inspired by God
P
PThe corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak Comparison of the
Pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
Phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia This
Pshouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
Pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies
Well corrupted the first time is good enough Seeing that the bible was constructed
400 years after Jesuss death in the text of merchants ieowe this and owe that I wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously Obviously it was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize sp
off of the Asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense
preprocess doc From: tkelso@afit.af.mil (TS Kelso)
Subject: Two-Line Orbital Element Set: Space Shuttle
Keywords: Space Shuttle, Orbital Elements, Keplerian
Nntp-Posting-Host: scgraph.afit.af.mil
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines: 21
The most current orbital elements from the NORAD two-line element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513) 427-0674, and are updated daily (when
possible). Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system. As a service to the satellite user community, the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below. The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, 2400, 4800, or 9600 bps using
8 data bits, 1 stop bit, no parity.
Element sets (also updated daily), shuttle elements, and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive.afit.af.mil
(129.92.1.66) in the directory pub/space.
STS 56
1 22621U 93 23 A 93105.06179397 .00044513 00000-0 12649-3 0 230
2 22621 57.0022 147.2850 0004246 288.7332 38.0941 15.92991629 1084
1993 023B
1 22623U 93 23 B 93103.37312705 .00041032 00000-0 11888-3 0 86
2 22623 57.0000 155.1150 0004422 293.4650 66.5967 15.92653917 803
--
Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelso@afit.af.mil Air Force Institute of Technology
after prepro From tkelsoafitafmil TS Kelso
Subject TwoLine Orbital Element Set Space Shuttle
Keywords Space Shuttle Orbital Elements Keplerian
NntpPostingHost scgraphafitafmil
Organization Air Force Institute of Technology
Lines 21
The most current orbital elements from the NORAD twoline element sets are
carried on the Celestial BBS 513 4270674 and are updated daily when
possible Documentation and tracking software are also available on this
system As a service to the satellite user community the most current
elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below The Celestial
BBS may be accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 2400 4800 or 9600 bps using
8 data bits 1 stop bit no parity
Element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation
and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archiveafitafmil
12992166 in the directory pubspace
STS 56
1 22621U 93 23 A 9310506179397 00044513 000000 126493 0 230
2 22621 570022 1472850 0004246 2887332 380941 1592991629 1084
1993 023B
1 22623U 93 23 B 9310337312705 00041032 000000 118883 0 86
2 22623 570000 1551150 0004422 2934650 665967 1592653917 803
Dr TS Kelso Assistant Professor of Space Operations
tkelsoafitafmil Air Force Institute of Technology
preprocess doc cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!karner
Subject: Re: Islamic marriage?
From: karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner)
<C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Originator: frank@karner.austin.ibm.com
Lines: 50
In article <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
> In article <C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
> >
> >Okay. So you want me to name names? There are obviously no official
> >records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for
> >convenience. What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
> >in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of.
> >The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
> >religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex. Nobody complains,
> >nobody cares, nobody needs to know.
> >
> >Perhaps you should alert your imam. It could be that this practice is
> >far more widespread than you may think. Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
> >to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists!
> >--
> >
>
> Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, Muslims
> are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? There is
> no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts
> straight buddy. Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
> were lying. It is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in
> fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
> Muslims.
First of all, I'm not your buddy! Second, read what I wrote. I'm not
talking about what muslims are ALLOWED to do, merely what *SOME*
practice. They consider themselves as muslim as you, so don't retort
with the old and tired "they MUST NOT BE TRUE MUSLIMS" bullshit. If I
gave you the names what will you do with this information? Is a fatwa
going to be leashed out against the perpetrators? Do you honestly think
that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess?
With the kind of extremism shown by your co-religionaries? Fat chance.
At any rate, there can be no conclusive "proof" by the very nature of
the act. Perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in
theory, but hope that Allah will forgive them in the end.
I think it's rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims
in this regard. Also, kind of silly. Are you insinuating that because
the Koranic law forbids it, there are no criminals in muslim countries?
This is as far as I care to go on this subject. The weakness of your
arguments are for all netters to see. Over and out...
--
DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
solely and do not represent my employer in any way.
F. A. Karner AIX Technical Support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com
after prepro csutexasedugeraldoccutexaseduportalaustinibmcomawdprimeaustinibmcomkarner
Subject Re Islamic marriage
From karneraustinibmcom F Karner
1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM
Organization IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Originator frankkarneraustinibmcom
Lines 50
In article 1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
In article karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes
Okay So you want me to name names There are obviously no official
records of these pseudomarriages because they are performed for
convenience What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of
The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
religious marriage contract in order to have sex Nobody complains
nobody cares nobody needs to know
Perhaps you should alert your imam It could be that this practice is
far more widespread than you may think Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists
Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display Muslims
are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages got that There is
no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts
straight buddy Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
were lying It is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in
fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
Muslims
First of all Im not your buddy Second read what I wrote Im not
talking about what muslims are ALLOWED to do merely what SOME
practice They consider themselves as muslim as you so dont retort
with the old and tired they MUST NOT BE TRUE MUSLIMS bullshit If I
gave you the names what will you do with this information Is a fatwa
going to be leashed out against the perpetrators Do you honestly think
that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess
With the kind of extremism shown by your coreligionaries Fat chance
At any rate there can be no conclusive proof by the very nature of
the act Perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in
theory but hope that Allah will forgive them in the end
I think its rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims
in this regard Also kind of silly Are you insinuating that because
the Koranic law forbids it there are no criminals in muslim countries
This is as far as I care to go on this subject The weakness of your
arguments are for all netters to see Over and out
DISCLAIMER The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
solely and do not represent my employer in any way
F A Karner AIX Technical Support karneraustinvnetibmcom
preprocess doc From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Nicknames
Summary: was Re: New Member
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 36
In article <UfnYJ2a00VoqIT9VpA@andrew.cmu.edu> nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nanci Ann Miller) writes:
>jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>> Welcome. I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
>> are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
>> Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster." So the next time
>> you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
>> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller. Thanks again.
>>
>> Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland
>
>Of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
>GIPU almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on
>the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?). Since I am
>a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
>nicknames for the frequent posters here!
If the first rule of humor is never having to say you're sorry then the
second rule must be never having to explain yourself. Few things are
worse that a joke explained. In spite of this, and because of requests
for me to post my list o' nicknames, I must admit that no such list
exists. It was simply a plot device, along with me being the keeper
o' the list, to make the obvious play on the last name of Fuller and to
advance the idea that such a list should be made.
I assumed that the ol' timers would recognize it for what it is.
Nevertheless, how about a list o' nicknames for alt.atheism posters?
If you think of a good one, just post it and see if others like it.
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
Bill.
Jim "D'oh! I broke the second rule of humor" Copeland
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse | Nothing
after prepro From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Nicknames
Summary was Re New Member
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 36
In article nm0wandrewcmuedu Nanci Ann Miller writes
jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes
Welcome I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster So the next time
you post an article sign with your nickname like so
Dave Buckminster Fuller Thanks again
Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland
Of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago you know the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here
If the first rule of humor is never having to say youre sorry then the
second rule must be never having to explain yourself Few things are
worse that a joke explained In spite of this and because of requests
for me to post my list o nicknames I must admit that no such list
exists It was simply a plot device along with me being the keeper
o the list to make the obvious play on the last name of Fuller and to
advance the idea that such a list should be made
I assumed that the ol timers would recognize it for what it is
Nevertheless how about a list o nicknames for altatheism posters
If you think of a good one just post it and see if others like it
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most like Bobby or
Bill
Jim Doh I broke the second rule of humor Copeland
If God is dead and the actor plays his part Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse Nothing
preprocess doc Subject: Diffs to sci.space/sci.astro Frequently Asked Questions
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:50:16 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Supersedes: <diffs_730956190@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 294
Archive-name: space/diff
DIFFS SINCE LAST FAQ POSTING (IN POSTING ORDER)
(These are hand-edited context diffs; do not attempt to use them to patch
old copies of the FAQ).
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.intro
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06400 Thu Apr 1 14:47:22 1993
--- FAQ.intro Thu Apr 1 14:46:55 1993
***************
*** 101,107 ****
NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
NASA Spacelink
National Space Science Data Center
- Space And Planetary Image Facility
Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
Starcat
Astronomical Databases
--- 101,106 ----
***************
*** 130,135 ****
--- 129,135 ----
LLNL "great exploration"
Lunar Prospector
Lunar science and activities
+ Orbiting Earth satellite histories
Spacecraft models
Rocket propulsion
Spacecraft design
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.net
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06405 Thu Apr 1 14:47:24 1993
--- FAQ.net Thu Apr 1 14:46:57 1993
***************
*** 58,63 ****
--- 58,67 ----
elements are sent out on the list from Dr. Kelso, JSC, and other sources
as they are released. Email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join.
+ GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
+ System and other satellite navigation positioning systems. Email to
+ gps-request@esseye.si.com to join.
+
Space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in
space-related companies. Email Vincent Cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join.
***************
*** 223,227 ****
--- 227,241 ----
1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
NASA personnel.
+ Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
+ have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
+ detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
+ Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write
+
+ NASA
+ Inspector General
+ P.O. Box 23089
+ L'enfant Plaza Station
+ Washington DC 20024
NEXT: FAQ #3/15 - Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.data
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06410 Thu Apr 1 14:47:26 1993
--- FAQ.data Thu Apr 1 14:46:54 1993
***************
*** 216,237 ****
Telephone: (301) 286-6695
Email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
-
-
- SPACE AND PLANETARY IMAGE FACILITY
-
- Available 24 hours a day via anonymous FTP from pioneer.unm.edu. Has
- approximately 150 CD-ROM's full of imagery, raw, and tabular data. To
- start, get the file:
-
- pioneer.unm.edu:pub/info/beginner-info
-
- This will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data
- from their machine. beginner-info has been translated to other
- languages, you should look inside pub/info for the particular language
- that meets your needs.
-
- Contact help@pioneer.unm.edu.
SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
--- 216,221 ----
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.math
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06415 Thu Apr 1 14:47:28 1993
--- FAQ.math Thu Apr 1 14:46:56 1993
***************
*** 60,65 ****
--- 60,71 ----
Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.
+
+ _Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
+ Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
+ Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
+ #PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
+ this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.
_Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.references
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06420 Thu Apr 1 14:47:30 1993
--- FAQ.references Thu Apr 1 14:46:59 1993
***************
*** 93,100 ****
US Naval Observatory
202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
202-653-1507 General
- 202-653-1545 Nautical Almanac Office (info on the Interactive
- Computer Ephemeris)
Willmann-Bell
P.O. Box 35025
--- 93,98 ----
***************
*** 138,151 ****
SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
! orbit vehicle is uncertain at present; for considerably more detail on
! the SSRT program, get the document
! ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/DeltaClipper
! by anonymous FTP or through the email server.
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
--- 136,151 ----
SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
! orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.
! An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
! anonymous FTP or email server in the directory
! bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper
+ Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.
+
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
***************
*** 223,228 ****
--- 223,236 ----
University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
various Orbiters.
+
+
+ ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
+
+ A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
+ available by anonymous FTP in:
+
+ ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites
SPACECRAFT MODELS
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.addresses
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06435 Thu Apr 1 14:47:34 1993
--- FAQ.addresses Thu Apr 1 14:46:51 1993
***************
*** 75,80 ****
--- 75,85 ----
the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.
+
+ A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
+ FTP in
+
+ ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription
NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
Houston, TX 77058
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.new_probes
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06450 Thu Apr 1 14:47:38 1993
--- FAQ.new_probes Thu Apr 1 14:46:58 1993
***************
*** 8,13 ****
--- 8,19 ----
team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.
+ ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
+ Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
+ Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
+ scintillation proportional counters.
+
+
CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
***************
*** 98,115 ****
MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
! surface at high resolution. Currently (11/92) in mapping cycle 4,
! collecting a global gravity map.
MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
! Launched 9/24/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (3/93) in
transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
one martian year (687 days).
! TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched in
! August 1992 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
--- 104,121 ----
MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
! surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
! map.
MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
! Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in
transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
one martian year (687 days).
! TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
! 8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
===================================================================
diff -t -c -r1.18 FAQ.astronaut
*** /tmp/,RCSt1a06465 Thu Apr 1 14:47:43 1993
--- FAQ.astronaut Thu Apr 1 14:46:52 1993
***************
*** 162,174 ****
specific standards:
Distant visual acuity:
! 20/100 or better uncorrected,
correctable to 20/20, each eye.
Blood pressure:
140/90 measured in sitting position.
! 3. Height between 60 and 76 inches.
Pilot Astronaut Candidate:
--- 162,174 ----
specific standards:
Distant visual acuity:
! 20/150 or better uncorrected,
correctable to 20/20, each eye.
Blood pressure:
140/90 measured in sitting position.
! 3. Height between 58.5 and 76 inches.
Pilot Astronaut Candidate:
after prepro Subject Diffs to scispacesciastro Frequently Asked Questions
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195016 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 294
Archivename spacediff
DIFFS SINCE LAST FAQ POSTING IN POSTING ORDER
These are handedited context diffs do not attempt to use them to patch
old copies of the FAQ
diff t c r118 FAQintro
tmpRCSt1a06400 Thu Apr 1 144722 1993
FAQintro Thu Apr 1 144655 1993
101107
NASA Langley Technical Reports
NASA Spacelink
National Space Science Data Center
Space And Planetary Image Facility
Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info Service
Starcat
Astronomical Databases
101106
130135
129135
LLNL great exploration
Lunar Prospector
Lunar science and activities
Orbiting Earth satellite histories
Spacecraft models
Rocket propulsion
Spacecraft design
diff t c r118 FAQnet
tmpRCSt1a06405 Thu Apr 1 144724 1993
FAQnet Thu Apr 1 144657 1993
5863
5867
elements are sent out on the list from Dr Kelso JSC and other sources
as they are released Email to elementsrequesttelesoftcom to join
GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
System and other satellite navigation positioning systems Email to
gpsrequestesseyesicom to join
Spaceinvestors is a list for information relevant to investing in
spacerelated companies Email Vincent Cate vaccscmuedu to join
223227
227241
1030 If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact
NASA personnel
Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste None
have ever been substantiated to any significant degree Readers
detecting Fraud Waste Abuse or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
Inspector General 24hours at 8004249183 can be anonymous or write
NASA
Inspector General
PO Box 23089
Lenfant Plaza Station
Washington DC 20024
NEXT FAQ 315 Online and some offline sources of images data etc
diff t c r118 FAQdata
tmpRCSt1a06410 Thu Apr 1 144726 1993
FAQdata Thu Apr 1 144654 1993
216237
Telephone 301 2866695
Email address requestnssdcagsfcnasagov
SPACE AND PLANETARY IMAGE FACILITY
Available 24 hours a day via anonymous FTP from pioneerunmedu Has
approximately 150 CDROMs full of imagery raw and tabular data To
start get the file
pioneerunmedupubinfobeginnerinfo
This will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data
from their machine beginnerinfo has been translated to other
languages you should look inside pubinfo for the particular language
that meets your needs
Contact helppioneerunmedu
SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
216221
diff t c r118 FAQmath
tmpRCSt1a06415 Thu Apr 1 144728 1993
FAQmath Thu Apr 1 144656 1993
6065
6071
Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
period or 300 years from now Pluto is included but stated to
have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes
_Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ MICA produced by the US
Naval Observatory Valid for years 19901999 55 80 outside US
Available for IBM order PB93500163HDV or Macintosh order
PB93500155HDV From the NTIS sales desk 7034874650 I believe
this is intended to replace the USNOs Interactive Computer Ephemeris
_Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ from the US Naval Observatory
distributed on IBMPC floppy disks 35 WillmannBell Covers dates
diff t c r118 FAQreferences
tmpRCSt1a06420 Thu Apr 1 144730 1993
FAQreferences Thu Apr 1 144659 1993
93100
US Naval Observatory
2026531079 USNO Bulletin Board via modem
2026531507 General
2026531545 Nautical Almanac Office info on the Interactive
Computer Ephemeris
WillmannBell
PO Box 35025
9398
138151
SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
orbit vehicle is uncertain at present for considerably more detail on
the SSRT program get the document
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQDeltaClipper
by anonymous FTP or through the email server
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
136151
SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
orbit vehicle called Delta Clipper is uncertain at present
An collection of pictures and files relating to DCX is available by
anonymous FTP or email server in the directory
bongoccutexasedupubdeltaclipper
Chris W Johnson chrisjemxccutexasedu maintains the archive
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
223228
223236
University Press 1970 Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions
including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
various Orbiters
ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
A list of Earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is
available by anonymous FTP in
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQSatellites
SPACECRAFT MODELS
diff t c r118 FAQaddresses
tmpRCSt1a06435 Thu Apr 1 144734 1993
FAQaddresses Thu Apr 1 144651 1993
7580
7585
the latter an SF 171 is useless Employees are Caltech employees
contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities
They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers
A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
FTP in
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQJPLDescription
NASA Johnson Manned Space Center JSC
Houston TX 77058
diff t c r118 FAQnew_probes
tmpRCSt1a06450 Thu Apr 1 144738 1993
FAQnew_probes Thu Apr 1 144658 1993
813
819
team ISASNASDA launch schedules press kits
ASUKA ASTROD ISAS Japan Xray astronomy satellite launched into
Earth orbit on 22093 Equipped with largearea widewavelength 120
Angstrom Xray telescope Xray CCD cameras and imaging gas
scintillation proportional counters
CASSINI Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe Cassini is a joint
NASAESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe Cassini
98115
MAGELLAN Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
surface at high resolution Currently 1192 in mapping cycle 4
collecting a global gravity map
MARS OBSERVER Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
Launched 92492 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 393 in
transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
one martian year 687 days
TOPEXPoseidon Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched in
August 1992 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also
104121
MAGELLAN Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
surface at high resolution Currently 493 collecting a global gravity
map
MARS OBSERVER Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
Launched 92592 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 493 in
transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
one martian year 687 days
TOPEXPoseidon Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched
81092 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also
diff t c r118 FAQastronaut
tmpRCSt1a06465 Thu Apr 1 144743 1993
FAQastronaut Thu Apr 1 144652 1993
162174
specific standards
Distant visual acuity
20100 or better uncorrected
correctable to 2020 each eye
Blood pressure
14090 measured in sitting position
3 Height between 60 and 76 inches
Pilot Astronaut Candidate
162174
specific standards
Distant visual acuity
20150 or better uncorrected
correctable to 2020 each eye
Blood pressure
14090 measured in sitting position
3 Height between 585 and 76 inches
Pilot Astronaut Candidate
preprocess doc From: semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Steve Emmett)
Subject: Moscow Aviation Institute summer school
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Lines: 103
I have attached a copy of an announcement I picked up during my trip to
Moscow last week. I have several friends at the Moscow Aviation
Institute who have asked me to post this announcement. (I have done
some editing, but the contents is unchanged from the original
announcement.)
For those of you not familiar with the Moscow Aviation Institute, it is
the leading Russian school of higher education dedicated to the training
of aircraft and spacecraft designers. It specializes in airframe
design, powerplant design, control systems, and power systems.
Virtually all of the major former Soviet airframe designers (Tupolev,
Su, Iluchine, Migoyan, etc.) were schooled at MAI.
I had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at
MAI. The aircraft include Mig23, Su 27, Yak 38, the cockpit of an
F-111(!), among others. It was a fascinating and eye opening
experience, expecially given the fact that the museum was, until a year
or so ago, closed to virtually everyone. I also had the opportunity to
see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines
for future space craft use.
If you have any questions about the Institute, or the program, I would
be glad to try and answer them. The institute, and most of it's faculty
have e-mail addresses. However, it takes about a day or so for the
receiver to get the message. They are still a bit antiquated - but they
are rapidly changing!
Steve Emmett
semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
ps please send any questions you have for me via e-mail. George Mason
university has about a 2 week (!) delay in news feed delivery.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL AVIATION SCHOOL
The aviation school "Poljot" (meaning Flight) is organized by the the
Moscow Aviation Institute, the prominent Russian Center of airspace
education and the foreign trade firm Poljot, well known in various
parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches.
The course of studies will last only 50 days, but during this time
you will have the unique opportunity:
- to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation
disciplines, the history and theory of techniques, and design of
airplanes;
- to visit and get acquainted with the world known Russian
aviation firms - TU, MiG, Yak, Il and Su;
- to meet and have discussions with famous aviation
scientists, engineers and pilots;
- to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation
techniques which were closed for many years to the public;
- to see the International Airspace Show which will take
place in Moscow from 31 August through 3 September 1993;
- to visit famous art museums, historical and architectural
monuments, theatres and concert halls;
- to take part in sport competitions and have a great time
with new friends.
The Director of the school is Mr. Oleg Samelovich, a well known
Russian scientist, professor, general designer and the Chief of the
Airplanes Design Department of the Moscow Aviation Institute. Mr.
Samelovich is one of the designers of the the Su-24, Su-25, and Su-27
The lectures are given in English, using a multi-media concept. The
students are provided with all the necessary text books and
literature. After the full course of studies are completed, the
student will receive a special certificate of graduation.
The cost of studies, including hotel, meals, excursions, theatres,
etc is $3500.
To apply for admission, send your application to:
109147 Moscow Marksistskaja 34
Foreign Trade Firm "Poljot"
274 00 13 (phone)
274 00 22 (FAX)
411989 POLEX SU (telex)
In your application, include your full name, address, date and place
of birth. In addition, include complete passport information, as well
as a description of your education.
Upon receipt of this information, "Poljot" will immediately forward
to you an official invitation for obtaining a Russian entrance visa
as well as details on payment.
Should you require additional information, please do not hesitate to
contact us.
(signed) O. Samelovich
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Steve Emmett semmett@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------
CSI/Physics, George Mason University
after prepro From semmettgmuvax2gmuedu Steve Emmett
Subject Moscow Aviation Institute summer school
Organization George Mason University Fairfax Virginia USA
Lines 103
I have attached a copy of an announcement I picked up during my trip to
Moscow last week I have several friends at the Moscow Aviation
Institute who have asked me to post this announcement I have done
some editing but the contents is unchanged from the original
announcement
For those of you not familiar with the Moscow Aviation Institute it is
the leading Russian school of higher education dedicated to the training
of aircraft and spacecraft designers It specializes in airframe
design powerplant design control systems and power systems
Virtually all of the major former Soviet airframe designers Tupolev
Su Iluchine Migoyan etc were schooled at MAI
I had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at
MAI The aircraft include Mig23 Su 27 Yak 38 the cockpit of an
F111 among others It was a fascinating and eye opening
experience expecially given the fact that the museum was until a year
or so ago closed to virtually everyone I also had the opportunity to
see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines
for future space craft use
If you have any questions about the Institute or the program I would
be glad to try and answer them The institute and most of its faculty
have email addresses However it takes about a day or so for the
receiver to get the message They are still a bit antiquated but they
are rapidly changing
Steve Emmett
semmettgmuvax2gmuedu
ps please send any questions you have for me via email George Mason
university has about a 2 week delay in news feed delivery
MOSCOW INTERNATIONAL AVIATION SCHOOL
The aviation school Poljot meaning Flight is organized by the the
Moscow Aviation Institute the prominent Russian Center of airspace
education and the foreign trade firm Poljot well known in various
parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches
The course of studies will last only 50 days but during this time
you will have the unique opportunity
to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation
disciplines the history and theory of techniques and design of
airplanes
to visit and get acquainted with the world known Russian
aviation firms TU MiG Yak Il and Su
to meet and have discussions with famous aviation
scientists engineers and pilots
to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation
techniques which were closed for many years to the public
to see the International Airspace Show which will take
place in Moscow from 31 August through 3 September 1993
to visit famous art museums historical and architectural
monuments theatres and concert halls
to take part in sport competitions and have a great time
with new friends
The Director of the school is Mr Oleg Samelovich a well known
Russian scientist professor general designer and the Chief of the
Airplanes Design Department of the Moscow Aviation Institute Mr
Samelovich is one of the designers of the the Su24 Su25 and Su27
The lectures are given in English using a multimedia concept The
students are provided with all the necessary text books and
literature After the full course of studies are completed the
student will receive a special certificate of graduation
The cost of studies including hotel meals excursions theatres
etc is 3500
To apply for admission send your application to
109147 Moscow Marksistskaja 34
Foreign Trade Firm Poljot
274 00 13 phone
274 00 22 FAX
411989 POLEX SU telex
In your application include your full name address date and place
of birth In addition include complete passport information as well
as a description of your education
Upon receipt of this information Poljot will immediately forward
to you an official invitation for obtaining a Russian entrance visa
as well as details on payment
Should you require additional information please do not hesitate to
contact us
signed O Samelovich
Steve Emmett semmettgmuvax2gmuedu
CSIPhysics George Mason University
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 60
In article <11847@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <115670@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>In article <11826@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>>I am refuting nothing but simply telling you what I see, which is
>>childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted. BCCI was not
>>an Islamic bank, so this post has nothing to do with Islamic banks.
>>I am tiring of this infantile garbage, so I simply evaluated it
>>as such.
>>> Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit? Or did I miss the full
>>> grandeur of it's content by virtue of my blinding atheism?
>>You may be having difficulty seeing the light because you
>>have your head up your ass. I suggest making sure this is
>>not the case before posting again.
> It's time for your lesson in debate, Gregg.
Yeah, right.
>Begin included text:
>From vice!news.tek.com!uunet!psinntp!wrldlnk!usenet Sun Apr 18 10:01:11 PDT 1993
>I noticed a post on this topic in soc.religion.islam. And since the topic
>of the BCCI being/not being an Islamic bank has come up, I have left in the
>one mention of the BCCI bank called "How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of
>banking" from this bibliography.
>Bennett, Neil. "How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of banking". The
>Times. August 13, 1991.
So, let's see. If some guy writes a piece with a title that implies
something is the case then it must be so, is that it?
> This is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone
> respect it, Gregg. Any questions? And I even managed to include
> the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass. What's
> your excuse?
This supports nothing. I have no reason to believe that this is
piece is anything other than another anti-Islamic slander job.
I have no respect for titles, only for real content. I can look
up this article if I want, true. But I can tell you BCCI was _not_
an Islamic bank. Seeing as I'm spending my time responding to
propaganda (in responding to this little sub-thread) I really
don't feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the
effect that the propaganda is false. If someone wants to discuss
the issue more seriously then I'd be glad to have a real discussion,
providing references, etc.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 60
In article 11847viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article 115670buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 11826viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
I am refuting nothing but simply telling you what I see which is
childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted BCCI was not
an Islamic bank so this post has nothing to do with Islamic banks
I am tiring of this infantile garbage so I simply evaluated it
as such
Could you maybe flesh it out just a bit Or did I miss the full
grandeur of its content by virtue of my blinding atheism
You may be having difficulty seeing the light because you
have your head up your ass I suggest making sure this is
not the case before posting again
Its time for your lesson in debate Gregg
Yeah right
Begin included text
From vicenewstekcomuunetpsinntpwrldlnkusenet Sun Apr 18 100111 PDT 1993
I noticed a post on this topic in socreligionislam And since the topic
of the BCCI beingnot being an Islamic bank has come up I have left in the
one mention of the BCCI bank called How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of
banking from this bibliography
Bennett Neil How BCCI adapted the Koran rules of banking The
Times August 13 1991
So lets see If some guy writes a piece with a title that implies
something is the case then it must be so is that it
This is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone
respect it Gregg Any questions And I even managed to include
the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass Whats
your excuse
This supports nothing I have no reason to believe that this is
piece is anything other than another antiIslamic slander job
I have no respect for titles only for real content I can look
up this article if I want true But I can tell you BCCI was _not_
an Islamic bank Seeing as Im spending my time responding to
propaganda in responding to this little subthread I really
dont feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the
effect that the propaganda is false If someone wants to discuss
the issue more seriously then Id be glad to have a real discussion
providing references etc
Gregg
preprocess doc From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: islamic authority [sic] over women
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 62
who: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
what: <kmr4.1426.733987668@po.cwru.edu>
with: rush@leland.Stanford.EDU
what: <1993Apr5.050524.9361@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>>> Other readers: I just joined, but is this guy for real?
>>> I'm simply amazed.
KR> "Sadly yes. Don't loose any sleep over Old 'Zlumber. Just
KR> have some fun with him, but he is basically harmless.
KR> At least, if you don't work in NY city."
I don't find it hard to believe that "Ole 'Zlumber" really believes
the hate and ignorant prattle he writes. The frightening thought is,
there are people even worse than he! To say that feminism equals
"superiority" over men is laughable as long as he doesn't then proceed
to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike---
aka the Canada slaughter that occured a few years ago. But then, men
killing women is nothing new. Islamic Fundamentalists just have a
"better" excuse (Qu'ran).
from the Vancouver Sun, Thursday, October 4, 1990
by John Davidson, Canadian Press
MONTREAL-- Perhaps it's the letter to the five-year old
daughter that shocks the most.
"I hope one day you will be old enough to understand what
happened to your parents," wrote Patrick Prevost. "I loved
your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred."
Police found the piece of paper near Prevost's body in his
apartment in northeast Montreal.
They say the 39-year-old mechanic committed suicide after
killing his wife, Jocelyne Parent, 31.
The couple had been separated for a month and the woman had
gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money
for food. A violent quarrel broke out and Prevost attacked
his wife with a kitchen knife, cutting her throat, police said.
She was only the latest of 13 women slain by a husband or
lover in Quebec in the last five weeks.
Five children have also been slain as a result of the same
domestic "battles."
Last year in Quebec alone, 29 [women] were slain by their
husbands. That was more than one-third of such cases across
Canada, according to statistics from the Canadian Centre for
Justice. [rest of article ommited]
Then to say that women are somehow "better" or "should" be the
one to "stay home" and raise a child is also laughable. Women
have traditionally done hard labor to support a family, often
more than men in many cultures, throughout history. Seems to me
it takes at least two adults to raise a child, and that BOTH should
stay home to do so!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From DavidRiceofa123fidonetorg
Subject islamic authority [sic] over women
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 62
who kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
what
with rushlelandStanfordEDU
what 1993Apr50505249361lelandStanfordEDU
Other readers I just joined but is this guy for real
Im simply amazed
KR Sadly yes Dont loose any sleep over Old Zlumber Just
KR have some fun with him but he is basically harmless
KR At least if you dont work in NY city
I dont find it hard to believe that Ole Zlumber really believes
the hate and ignorant prattle he writes The frightening thought is
there are people even worse than he To say that feminism equals
superiority over men is laughable as long as he doesnt then proceed
to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike
aka the Canada slaughter that occured a few years ago But then men
killing women is nothing new Islamic Fundamentalists just have a
better excuse Quran
from the Vancouver Sun Thursday October 4 1990
by John Davidson Canadian Press
MONTREAL Perhaps its the letter to the fiveyear old
daughter that shocks the most
I hope one day you will be old enough to understand what
happened to your parents wrote Patrick Prevost I loved
your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred
Police found the piece of paper near Prevosts body in his
apartment in northeast Montreal
They say the 39yearold mechanic committed suicide after
killing his wife Jocelyne Parent 31
The couple had been separated for a month and the woman had
gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money
for food A violent quarrel broke out and Prevost attacked
his wife with a kitchen knife cutting her throat police said
She was only the latest of 13 women slain by a husband or
lover in Quebec in the last five weeks
Five children have also been slain as a result of the same
domestic battles
Last year in Quebec alone 29 [women] were slain by their
husbands That was more than onethird of such cases across
Canada according to statistics from the Canadian Centre for
Justice [rest of article ommited]
Then to say that women are somehow better or should be the
one to stay home and raise a child is also laughable Women
have traditionally done hard labor to support a family often
more than men in many cultures throughout history Seems to me
it takes at least two adults to raise a child and that BOTH should
stay home to do so
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 24
Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
>the "Environmental
>Billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
>804x1609 meters. Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area,
>deployed by the inflatable 'frame'.
> To help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for
>maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading
>sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the Earth's
>delicate protective ozone layer," according to Mike Lawson, head of
>SMI. Furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
>exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the Earth's
>atmosphere. According to IMI, "as the biodegradable material burns,
>it will release ozone-building components that will literally
>replenish the ozone layer."
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
Can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry? Granted
it probably a great advertising gimic, but it doesn't sound at all practical.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Space Advertising 2 of 2
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 24
WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg writes
the Environmental
Billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area
deployed by the inflatable frame
To help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading
sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the Earths
delicate protective ozone layer according to Mike Lawson head of
SMI Furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to reenter the Earths
atmosphere According to IMI as the biodegradable material burns
it will release ozonebuilding components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
Can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry Granted
it probably a great advertising gimic but it doesnt sound at all practical
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.020504.19326@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both
atheists AND theists. I'm sure Bobby can list quite a few for the atheist
side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at
genocide. Perhaps, since I'm a bit weak on history, somone here would like
to give a list of wars caused/led by theists? I can think of a few (Hitler
claimed to be a Christian for example) but a more complete list would
probably be more effective in showing Bobby just how absurd his statement
is.
> Peace,
On a side note, I notice you always sign your posts "Peace". Perhaps you
should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their
beliefs?
> Bobby Mozumder
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr502050419326ultbiscritedu
snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else
There are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both
atheists AND theists Im sure Bobby can list quite a few for the atheist
side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at
genocide Perhaps since Im a bit weak on history somone here would like
to give a list of wars causedled by theists I can think of a few Hitler
claimed to be a Christian for example but a more complete list would
probably be more effective in showing Bobby just how absurd his statement
is
Peace
On a side note I notice you always sign your posts Peace Perhaps you
should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their
beliefs
Bobby Mozumder
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
preprocess doc From: simon@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Simon Tardell)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Nntp-Posting-Host: cyklop.nada.kth.se
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 14
In <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>I would appreciate any advice.
I once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times. But not.
This gave discrepancy of upto six minutes. If you fit a sine series
you'll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though. This
presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the Earths orbit.
--
Simon Tardell, Ff88, simon@nada.kth.se V}ga v{gra cgs!
after prepro From simoncyklopnadakthse Simon Tardell
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
NntpPostingHost cyklopnadakthse
Organization Royal Institute of Technology Stockholm Sweden
Lines 14
In 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
I would appreciate any advice
I once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times But not
This gave discrepancy of upto six minutes If you fit a sine series
youll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though This
presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the Earths orbit
Simon Tardell Ff88 simonnadakthse Vga vgra cgs
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 37
suopanki@stekt.oulu.fi writes:
> On 5 Apr 93 11:24:30 MST, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com said:
> :> God is eternal. [A = B]
> :> Jesus is God. [C = A]
> :> Therefore, Jesus is eternal. [C = B]
>
> :> This works both logically and mathematically. God is of the set of
> :> things which are eternal. Jesus is a subset of God. Therefore
> :> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
>
> Everything isn't always so logical....
>
> Mercedes is a car.
> That girl is Mercedes.
> Therefore, that girl is a car?
Unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous. Re-writing more carefully, we have
(at least) two possibilities. The first:
Things called "Mercedes" are cars
That girl is called "Mercedes"
Therefore that girl is a car
That is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction. It is not sound,
because the first statement is false. Similarly, I would hold that Jim's
example is valid but not sound.
Another possible interpretation of what you wrote is:
There exists at least one car called "Mercedes"
That girl is called "Mercedes"
Therefore that girl is a car
-- which isn't valid.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 37
suopankistektoulufi writes
On 5 Apr 93 112430 MST jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom said
God is eternal [A B]
Jesus is God [C A]
Therefore Jesus is eternal [C B]
This works both logically and mathematically God is of the set of
things which are eternal Jesus is a subset of God Therefore
Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal
Everything isnt always so logical
Mercedes is a car
That girl is Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car
Unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous Rewriting more carefully we have
at least two possibilities The first
Things called Mercedes are cars
That girl is called Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car
That is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction It is not sound
because the first statement is false Similarly I would hold that Jims
example is valid but not sound
Another possible interpretation of what you wrote is
There exists at least one car called Mercedes
That girl is called Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car
which isnt valid
mathew
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Athei
From: sham@cs.arizona.edu (Shamim Zvonko Mohamed)
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
Lines: 29
In article <1993Apr19.151120.14068@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka) writes:
>In <930419.125145.9O3.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew writes:
>> I wonder if Noam Chomsky is reading this?
>
> I could be wrong, but is he actually talking about outright
>_government_ control of the media, aka censorship?
>
> If he doesn't, any quick one-stop-shopping reference to his works
>that'll tell me, in short, what he _does_ argue for?
"Manufacturing Consent," a film about the media. You alternative movie source
may have this; or to book it in your local alternative theatre, contact:
FILMS TRANSIT * INTERNATIONAL SALES
Jan Rofekamp
402 Notre Dame E.
Montreal, Quebec
Canada H2Y 1C8
Tel (514) 844-3358 * Fax (514) 844-7298
Telex 5560074 Filmtransmtl
(US readers: call Zeitgeist Films at 212 274 1989.)
-s
--
Shamim Mohamed / {uunet,noao,cmcl2..}!arizona!shamim / shamim@cs.arizona.edu
"Take this cross and garlic; here's a Mezuzah if he's Jewish; a page of the
Koran if he's a Muslim; and if he's a Zen Buddhist, you're on your own."
Member of the League for Programming Freedom - write to lpf@uunet.uu.net
after prepro Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Athei
From shamcsarizonaedu Shamim Zvonko Mohamed
Organization U of Arizona CS Dept Tucson
Lines 29
In article 1993Apr1915112014068abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka writes
In 9304191251459O3rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
I wonder if Noam Chomsky is reading this
I could be wrong but is he actually talking about outright
_government_ control of the media aka censorship
If he doesnt any quick onestopshopping reference to his works
thatll tell me in short what he _does_ argue for
Manufacturing Consent a film about the media You alternative movie source
may have this or to book it in your local alternative theatre contact
FILMS TRANSIT INTERNATIONAL SALES
Jan Rofekamp
402 Notre Dame E
Montreal Quebec
Canada H2Y 1C8
Tel 514 8443358 Fax 514 8447298
Telex 5560074 Filmtransmtl
US readers call Zeitgeist Films at 212 274 1989
s
Shamim Mohamed uunetnoaocmcl2arizonashamim shamimcsarizonaedu
Take this cross and garlic heres a Mezuzah if hes Jewish a page of the
Koran if hes a Muslim and if hes a Zen Buddhist youre on your own
Member of the League for Programming Freedom write to lpfuunetuunet
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 18
prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
>May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
>Does anyone know more about this? How much, to attend????
A good summary has been posted (thanks), but I wanted to add another comment.
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. Sorry I don't
rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable.
Anyone else know anything on this angle?
Hrumph. They didn't send _me_ anything :(
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Distribution na
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 18
prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
Does anyone know more about this How much to attend
A good summary has been posted thanks but I wanted to add another comment
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing Sorry I dont
rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable
Anyone else know anything on this angle
Hrumph They didnt send _me_ anything
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: MLINDROOS@FINABO.ABO.FI (Marcus Lindroos INF)
Subject: Into Infinity?(WAS:Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan?)
In-Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu's message of 15 Apr 1993 22:22:19 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 36
In <1qkn6rINNett@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.170048.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>
> >This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
> >States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K... Later, they went
> >on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.
> >
> >The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
> >airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
> >look at.
Exactly. Some of the SPACE:1999 effects remain first-rate even today.
> They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO. Some of the
> concepts even showed up in SPACE: 1999.
>
Later on, the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudo-scientific shows in TV history by flying "Into Infinity."
This was a one-off thing done as part of BBC's "educational SF" series "The
Day After Tomorrow." The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light ("lightship Altares"), the four-man crew eventually
journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy (I
think). I saw this as a 9-year-old back in 1976 and liked it very much, but
then again I was a fan of SPACE:1999 so I guess I was easily satisfied in those
days:-)
---
Does anyone know if "Into Infinity" has been released on video? I have some
SPACE:1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc. also are available in
England.
MARCU$
>
> Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
> -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From MLINDROOSFINABOABOFI Marcus Lindroos INF
Subject Into InfinityWASRe Doppelganger was Re Vulcan
InReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedus message of 15 Apr 1993 222219 GMT
Organization Abo Akademi University Finland
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 36
In 1qkn6rINNettmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
In article 1993Apr151700481fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
States and as Doppelganger in the UK Later they went
on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999
The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
look at
Exactly Some of the SPACE1999 effects remain firstrate even today
They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE 1999
Later on the Andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some
of the worst pseudoscientific shows in TV history by flying Into Infinity
This was a oneoff thing done as part of BBCs educational SF series The
Day After Tomorrow The Anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of
reaching the speed of light lightship Altares the fourman crew eventually
journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy I
think I saw this as a 9yearold back in 1976 and liked it very much but
then again I was a fan of SPACE1999 so I guess I was easily satisfied in those
days
Does anyone know if Into Infinity has been released on video I have some
SPACE1999 shows on VHS and know that Thunderbirds etc also are available in
England
MARCU
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
Lines: 60
NNTP-Posting-Host: math9.math.umbc.edu
In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu> jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight. You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times.
--
Rouben Rostamian Telephone: 410-455-2458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics e-mail:
University of Maryland Baltimore County bitnet: rostamian@umbc.bitnet
Baltimore, MD 21228, USA internet: rouben@math.umbc.edu
======================================================================
Definitions:
z = the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its
orbital plane. In case of the Earth z is about 23.5 degrees, I think.
I do not recall the exact value. In case of Uranus, z is almost
90 degrees.
u = latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured.
Paris is at about 45 degrees. North pole is at 90.
a = angular position of the planet around the sun. As a goes from
0 to 360 degrees, the planet makes a full circle around the sun.
The spring equinox occurs at a=0.
L = daylight fraction = (duration of daylight)/(duration of a full day).
On the equator (u=0) L is always 1/2. Near the north pole (u=90 degrees)
L is sometimes one and sometimes zero, depending on the time of the year.
Computation:
Define the auxiliary angles p and q by:
sin p = sin a sin z
cos q = h ( tan u tan p ), (0 < q < 180 degrees)
Conclusion:
L = q / 180 (if q is measured in degrees)
L = q / pi (if q is measured in radians)
Wait! But what is h?
The cutoff function h is defined as follows:
h (s) = s if |s| < 1
= 1 if s > 1
= -1 if s < 1
As an interesting exercise, plot L versus a. The graph will shows
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year.
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles.
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle.
--
Rouben Rostamian Telephone: 410-455-2458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics e-mail:
University of Maryland Baltimore County bitnet: rostamian@umbc.bitnet
Baltimore, MD 21228, USA internet: rouben@math.umbc.edu
after prepro From roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization University of Maryland Baltimore County Campus
Lines 60
NNTPPostingHost math9mathumbcedu
In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times
Rouben Rostamian Telephone 4104552458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics email
University of Maryland Baltimore County bitnet rostamianumbcbitnet
Baltimore MD 21228 USA internet roubenmathumbcedu
Definitions
z the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its
orbital plane In case of the Earth z is about 235 degrees I think
I do not recall the exact value In case of Uranus z is almost
90 degrees
u latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured
Paris is at about 45 degrees North pole is at 90
a angular position of the planet around the sun As a goes from
0 to 360 degrees the planet makes a full circle around the sun
The spring equinox occurs at a0
L daylight fraction duration of daylightduration of a full day
On the equator u0 L is always 12 Near the north pole u90 degrees
L is sometimes one and sometimes zero depending on the time of the year
Computation
Define the auxiliary angles p and q by
sin p sin a sin z
cos q h tan u tan p 0 q 180 degrees
Conclusion
L q 180 if q is measured in degrees
L q pi if q is measured in radians
Wait But what is h
The cutoff function h is defined as follows
h s s if s 1
1 if s 1
1 if s 1
As an interesting exercise plot L versus a The graph will shows
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle
Rouben Rostamian Telephone 4104552458
Department of Mathematics and Statistics email
University of Maryland Baltimore County bitnet rostamianumbcbitnet
Baltimore MD 21228 USA internet roubenmathumbcedu
preprocess doc From: HoffmanE@space1.spacenet.jhuapl.edu (Hoffman, Eric J.)
Subject: Re: Drag free satellites
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 37
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
In article <1raee7$b8s@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
(Ron Baalke) writes:
>> In answer
>>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>>a concept."
>
>SO what's a drag free satellite? coated with WD-40?
TRIAD, the first drag-free satellite, was designed and built by the
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory and launched 2 Sept 1972. The
satellite was in three sections separated by two booms. The central section
housed the DISCOS Disturbance Compensation System, which consisted of a proof
mass of special non-magnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity. The
proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit, free from drag and radiation
pressure. Teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered
around the proof mass, thereby flying the entire satellite drag free.
TRIAD was one of the APL-designed Navy Navigation Satellites. The
2nd-generation operational navigation satellites flying today (NOVA) use a
single-axis version of DISCOS. TRIAD was also the sixth APL satellite to be
powered by an RTG (APL flew the first nuclear power supply in space, in 1961).
Further info on TRIAD, DISCOS, etc. can be found in "Spacecraft Design
Innovations in the APL Space Department," Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest,
Vol. 13, No. 1 (1992).
--Eric Hoffman
after prepro From HoffmanEspace1spacenetjhuapledu Hoffman Eric J
Subject Re Drag free satellites
Organization UTexas MailtoNews Gateway
Lines 37
NNTPPostingHost csutexasedu
In article 1raee7b8saccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept
SO whats a drag free satellite coated with WD40
TRIAD the first dragfree satellite was designed and built by the
Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory and launched 2 Sept 1972 The
satellite was in three sections separated by two booms The central section
housed the DISCOS Disturbance Compensation System which consisted of a proof
mass of special nonmagnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity The
proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit free from drag and radiation
pressure Teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered
around the proof mass thereby flying the entire satellite drag free
TRIAD was one of the APLdesigned Navy Navigation Satellites The
2ndgeneration operational navigation satellites flying today NOVA use a
singleaxis version of DISCOS TRIAD was also the sixth APL satellite to be
powered by an RTG APL flew the first nuclear power supply in space in 1961
Further info on TRIAD DISCOS etc can be found in Spacecraft Design
Innovations in the APL Space Department Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest
Vol 13 No 1 1992
Eric Hoffman
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station, Go Commerical.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.191701.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Sounds liek what the FED has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use
certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a
commerical company or consortium of companies (such as like Alyeska) for a
small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such.. Such as tax
and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products.. The commerical
builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier (taxes
, contracts, regulatory concesions and such..)
Is it workable, just might work..
After all, if China can lease out Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong can
make money, this could work..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Alaska Pipeline and Space Station Go Commerical
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51917011
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Sounds liek what the FED has to do is sign a 50 or more year lease to use
certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a
commerical company or consortium of companies such as like Alyeska for a
small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such Such as tax
and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products The commerical
builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier taxes
contracts regulatory concesions and such
Is it workable just might work
After all if China can lease out Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong can
make money this could work
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>I think you should support your first claim, that people will simply
>>harass me no matter what, as I doubt this is true. I think *some* of the
>>theists will be at a loss, and that is enough reason for me.
>Because "IN GOD WE TRUST" is a motto on the coins, and the coins
>are a representation of the government, christians are given
>ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic.
So, we should ban the ammunition? Why not get rid of the guns?
>And yes, I have heard this used in conversation with christians.
>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>should not have available to use.
It is worse than others? The National Anthem? Should it be changed too?
God Bless America? The list goes on...
>Imagine if the next year's set of coins were labeled with
>the motto: "GOD IS DEAD".
>Certainly, such a statement on U.S. coins would offend almost
>every christian. And I'd be tempted to rub that motto in the
>face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
>gets boring.
Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.
>Any statement printed on an item that represents
>the government is an endorsement by the government.
Oh?
>The coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god.
An endorsement, or an acknowledgement? I think gods are things that people
are proud of, but I don't think the motto encourages belief.
>I don't particularly feel like trusting in god,
>so the government IS putting me down with every
>coin it prints.
Is it?
[...]
>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
> "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"
Would you approve of such a motto?
>Whether the motto was intended to be anti-atheist or not,
>it turns up as an open invitation to use as an anti-atheist tool.
And removing the tool will solve the problem?
Or will it increase the problem?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re writes
I think you should support your first claim that people will simply
harass me no matter what as I doubt this is true I think some of the
theists will be at a loss and that is enough reason for me
Because IN GOD WE TRUST is a motto on the coins and the coins
are a representation of the government christians are given
ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic
So we should ban the ammunition Why not get rid of the guns
And yes I have heard this used in conversation with christians
Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use
It is worse than others The National Anthem Should it be changed too
God Bless America The list goes on
Imagine if the next years set of coins were labeled with
the motto GOD IS DEAD
Certainly such a statement on US coins would offend almost
every christian And Id be tempted to rub that motto in the
face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
gets boring
Then youd be no better than the people you despise
Any statement printed on an item that represents
the government is an endorsement by the government
Oh
The coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god
An endorsement or an acknowledgement I think gods are things that people
are proud of but I dont think the motto encourages belief
I dont particularly feel like trusting in god
so the government IS putting me down with every
coin it prints
Is it
[]
For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
In god gods or godlessness we trust
Would you approve of such a motto
Whether the motto was intended to be antiatheist or not
it turns up as an open invitation to use as an antiatheist tool
And removing the tool will solve the problem
Or will it increase the problem
keith
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Origins of the bible.
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 14
Adda Wainwright writes:
>He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in
>time which were syllable-perfect. This therefore meant that there must have
>been one copy at a certain time; the time quoted by my acquaintance was
>approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus.
This is, as far as I know, complete nonsense. The codification of the bible
as we have it now came very much later.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Origins of the bible
Organization U of Maryland Dept of Computer Science Coll Pk MD 20742
Lines 14
Adda Wainwright writes
He stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in
time which were syllableperfect This therefore meant that there must have
been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintance was
approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus
This is as far as I know complete nonsense The codification of the bible
as we have it now came very much later
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Iapetus/Saturn Eclipse
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 79
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from John Spencer (spencer@lowell.edu):
There will be two eclipses of Iapetus by Saturn and its
rings, in May and July. Please spread the word! Here's some
information about the events, and then a couple of messages from Jay
Goguen of JPL appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to
learn more about the thermal properties of Iapetus. He might also have
some money available...
John Spencer, 1993/04/21
Iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of Saturn's rings and Saturn
itself on 1993/05/01-02 (18:27-13:43 UT) and again on 1993/07/20-21,
(21:16-09:38 UT). Timing is as follows;
1993 May 1-2
A-ring ingress 18:27
egress 19:30
B-ring ingress 19:51
egress 21:42
C-ring egress 23:00
Saturn ingress 23:59
egress 10:02
B-ring ingress 10:28
egress 12:19
A-ring ingress 12:40
egress 13:43
1993 July 20-21
Saturn ingress 21:16
egress 05:08
A-ring ingress 05:13 (grazing)
egress 09:38
Times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris,
and photometric observations are important for refining Iapetus'
orbit. Because the Sun's size projected on the rings as seen from
Iapetus is 3100 km it's unlikely that we will learn anything new about
the rings themselves from the observations. See Soma (1992), Astronomy
and Astrophysics 265, L21-L24 for more details. Thanks to Andy Odell
of Northern Arizona University for bringing the events to my
attention.
THERMAL OBSERVATIONS?
Jay Goguen (jdg@scn5.Jpl.Nasa.Gov) writes:
To me, the interesting thing to do would be thermal IR of the 20 July
disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia,
etc. Unfortunately, the 21:30 UT of this event renders it inaccessible,
except from Russia. Even from Calar Alto, Saturn is rising through 3
airmasses at 23:00 UT. Do you know anyone in Russia or Ukraine with
a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation that's looking for something
to do? I'd be willing to make a personal grant of >$100 for the data.
Jay
and again:
please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet
disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths. My impression would
be that it's not an easy observation. Iapetus will be faint and
getting fainter in eclipse, so you'll need a big telescope that's a
good IR telescope and reasonable 10 - 20 um instrumentation. I don't
think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are
well placed for observation. We need SOFIA for this one. One
possibility would be the IR telescope in India, but it's only a 1.2 m.
jay
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject IapetusSaturn Eclipse
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 79
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from John Spencer spencerlowelledu
There will be two eclipses of Iapetus by Saturn and its
rings in May and July Please spread the word Heres some
information about the events and then a couple of messages from Jay
Goguen of JPL appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to
learn more about the thermal properties of Iapetus He might also have
some money available
John Spencer 19930421
Iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of Saturns rings and Saturn
itself on 1993050102 18271343 UT and again on 1993072021
21160938 UT Timing is as follows
1993 May 12
Aring ingress 1827
egress 1930
Bring ingress 1951
egress 2142
Cring egress 2300
Saturn ingress 2359
egress 1002
Bring ingress 1028
egress 1219
Aring ingress 1240
egress 1343
1993 July 2021
Saturn ingress 2116
egress 0508
Aring ingress 0513 grazing
egress 0938
Times could be 30 minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris
and photometric observations are important for refining Iapetus
orbit Because the Suns size projected on the rings as seen from
Iapetus is 3100 km its unlikely that we will learn anything new about
the rings themselves from the observations See Soma 1992 Astronomy
and Astrophysics 265 L21L24 for more details Thanks to Andy Odell
of Northern Arizona University for bringing the events to my
attention
THERMAL OBSERVATIONS
Jay Goguen jdgscn5JplNasaGov writes
To me the interesting thing to do would be thermal IR of the 20 July
disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia
etc Unfortunately the 2130 UT of this event renders it inaccessible
except from Russia Even from Calar Alto Saturn is rising through 3
airmasses at 2300 UT Do you know anyone in Russia or Ukraine with
a big telescope and 10 um instrumentation thats looking for something
to do Id be willing to make a personal grant of 100 for the data
Jay
and again
please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet
disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths My impression would
be that its not an easy observation Iapetus will be faint and
getting fainter in eclipse so youll need a big telescope thats a
good IR telescope and reasonable 10 20 um instrumentation I dont
think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are
well placed for observation We need SOFIA for this one One
possibility would be the IR telescope in India but its only a 12 m
jay
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: University of Virginia
Lines: 13
In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
#The better question should be.
#Why not transfer O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
#to support these kind of ongoing science missions.
Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything?
--
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu
UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w
after prepro From gsh7wfermiclasVirginiaEDU Greg Hennessy
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization University of Virginia
Lines 13
In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The better question should be
Why not transfer OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions
Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything
Greg Hennessy University of Virginia
USPS Mail Astronomy Department Charlottesville VA 229032475 USA
Internet gsh7wvirginiaedu
UUCP uunetvirginiagsh7w
preprocess doc From: marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 42
NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu
snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>If Saddam believed in God, he would pray five times a
>day.
>
>Communism, on the other hand, actually committed genocide in the name of
>atheism, as Lenin and Stalin have said themselves. These two were die
>hard atheist (Look! A pun!) and believed in atheism as an integral part
>of communism.
No, Bobby. Stalin killed millions in the name of Socialism. Atheism was a
characteristic of the Lenin-Stalin version of Socialism, nothing more.
Another characteristic of Lenin-Stalin Socialism was the centralization of
food distribution. Would you therefore say that Stalin and Lenin killed
millions in the name of rationing bread? Of course not.
>More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
In earlier posts you stated that true (Muslim) believers were incapable of
evil. I suppose if you believe that, you could reason that no one has ever
been killed in the name of religion. What a perfect world you live in,
Bobby.
>One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
>God a form. God does not have a "face".
Bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in _The Good Atheist's
Handbook_:
Law XXVI.A.3: Give that which you do not believe in a face.
You must excuse us, Bobby. When we argue against theism, we usually argue
against the Christian idea of God. In the realm of Christianity, man was
created in God's image.
--
|""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""|
| Kevin Marshall Sophomore, Computer Science |
| Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA USA marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu |
|____________________________________________________________________|
after prepro From marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept Blacksburg VA
Lines 42
NNTPPostingHost csugradcsvtedu
snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
If Saddam believed in God he would pray five times a
day
Communism on the other hand actually committed genocide in the name of
atheism as Lenin and Stalin have said themselves These two were die
hard atheist Look A pun and believed in atheism as an integral part
of communism
No Bobby Stalin killed millions in the name of Socialism Atheism was a
characteristic of the LeninStalin version of Socialism nothing more
Another characteristic of LeninStalin Socialism was the centralization of
food distribution Would you therefore say that Stalin and Lenin killed
millions in the name of rationing bread Of course not
More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else
In earlier posts you stated that true Muslim believers were incapable of
evil I suppose if you believe that you could reason that no one has ever
been killed in the name of religion What a perfect world you live in
Bobby
One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
God a form God does not have a face
Bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in _The Good Atheists
Handbook_
Law XXVIA3 Give that which you do not believe in a face
You must excuse us Bobby When we argue against theism we usually argue
against the Christian idea of God In the realm of Christianity man was
created in Gods image
Kevin Marshall Sophomore Computer Science
Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA USA marshallcsugradcsvtedu
____________________________________________________________________
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: A Remarkable Admission
Lines: 19
Jon Livesey writes:
>I'm certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different
>flavours of Christian, all loudly claiming to be the One True Christian.
Well, it's obvious that you *don't* attempt, otherwise you would be aware
that they *don't* all "loudly [claim] to be the One True Christian".
I've tried to avoid using the phrase "is/is not christian" because of these
ownership issues; instead, I've tried the phrase "Nicene christianity" in an
attempt to identify the vast majority of "christianity" which has roughly
similar viewpoints on the core theological issues. The JWs do not fall
within this group and in fact espouse a position known as Arianism, which is
rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject A Remarkable Admission
Lines 19
Jon Livesey writes
Im certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different
flavours of Christian all loudly claiming to be the One True Christian
Well its obvious that you dont attempt otherwise you would be aware
that they dont all loudly [claim] to be the One True Christian
Ive tried to avoid using the phrase isis not christian because of these
ownership issues instead Ive tried the phrase Nicene christianity in an
attempt to identify the vast majority of christianity which has roughly
similar viewpoints on the core theological issues The JWs do not fall
within this group and in fact espouse a position known as Arianism which is
rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: food
dillon comments that Space Food Sticks may have bad digestive properties.
I don't think so. I think most NASA food products were designed to
be low fiber 'zero-residue' products so as to minimize the difficulties
of waste disposal. I'd doubt they'd deploy anything that caused whole sale
GI distress. There aren't enough plastic baggies in the world for
a bad case of GI disease.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re space food sticks
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords food
dillon comments that Space Food Sticks may have bad digestive properties
I dont think so I think most NASA food products were designed to
be low fiber zeroresidue products so as to minimize the difficulties
of waste disposal Id doubt theyd deploy anything that caused whole sale
GI distress There arent enough plastic baggies in the world for
a bad case of GI disease
pat
preprocess doc From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 22
In article <1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>
>Unfortunately H. Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
>first book published, and have his ideas see light.. Such a waste.
>
>
Piper lived in my town (Williamsport, PA) when he killed himself. It
was in the early '60's. He had had more than a few books published by
that time, but he was down on his luck financially. Rumor was that he
was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food. He viewed himself as
a resourceful man, and (IMO) decided to check out gracefully if he
couldn't support himself. The worst part is that John Campbell, the
long-time editor of Astounding/Analog SF magazine had cut a check for
Piper's most recent story, and said check was in the mail. If Campbell
had known Piper's straits, I'm sure he would have phoned to say hang on.
Campbell was like that.
I wish it had happened differently. I always enjoyed Piper's stuff.
Doug Loss
after prepro From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 22
In article 1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Unfortunately H Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published and have his ideas see light Such a waste
Piper lived in my town Williamsport PA when he killed himself It
was in the early 60s He had had more than a few books published by
that time but he was down on his luck financially Rumor was that he
was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food He viewed himself as
a resourceful man and IMO decided to check out gracefully if he
couldnt support himself The worst part is that John Campbell the
longtime editor of AstoundingAnalog SF magazine had cut a check for
Pipers most recent story and said check was in the mail If Campbell
had known Pipers straits Im sure he would have phoned to say hang on
Campbell was like that
I wish it had happened differently I always enjoyed Pipers stuff
Doug Loss
preprocess doc From: mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Subject: LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 552
LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Orthodox physicists, astronomers, and astrophysicists
CLAIM to be looking for a "Unified Field Theory" in which all
of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single
set of laws or equations. But they have been systematically
IGNORING or SUPPRESSING an excellent one for 30 years!
The late Physicist Dewey B. Larson's comprehensive
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, which he
calls the "Reciprocal System", is built on two fundamental
postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of
space and time:
(1) "The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE
component, MOTION, existing in THREE dimensions, in DISCRETE
UNITS, and in two RECIPROCAL forms, SPACE and TIME."
(2) "The physical universe conforms to the relations of
ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics, its magnitudes are
ABSOLUTE, and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN."
From these two postulates, Larson developed a COMPLETE
Theoretical Universe, using various combinations of
translational, vibrational, rotational, and vibrational-
rotational MOTIONS, the concepts of IN-ward and OUT-ward
SCALAR MOTIONS, and speeds in relation to the Speed of Light
(which Larson called "UNIT VELOCITY" and "THE NATURAL
DATUM").
At each step in the development, Larson was able to
MATCH objects in his Theoretical Universe with objects in the
REAL physical universe, (photons, sub-atomic particles
[INCOMPLETE ATOMS], charges, atoms, molecules, globular star
clusters, galaxies, binary star systems, solar systems, white
dwarf stars, pulsars, quasars, ETC.), even objects NOT YET
DISCOVERED THEN (such as EXPLODING GALAXIES, and GAMMA-RAY
BURSTS).
And applying his Theory to his NEW model of the atom,
Larson was able to precisely and accurately CALCULATE inter-
atomic distances in crystals and molecules, compressibility
and thermal expansion of solids, and other properties of
matter.
All of this is described in good detail, with-OUT fancy
complex mathematics, in his books.
BOOKS of Dewey B. Larson
The following is a complete list of the late Physicist
Dewey B. Larson's books about his comprehensive GENERAL
UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe. Some of the early
books are out of print now, but still available through
inter-library loan.
"The Structure of the Physical Universe" (1959)
"The Case AGAINST the Nuclear Atom" (1963)
"Beyond Newton" (1964)
"New Light on Space and Time" (1965)
"Quasars and Pulsars" (1971)
"NOTHING BUT MOTION" (1979)
[A $9.50 SUBSTITUTE for the $8.3 BILLION "Super
Collider".]
[The last four chapters EXPLAIN chemical bonding.]
"The Neglected Facts of Science" (1982)
"THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION" (1984)
[FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL astrophysical
mysteries.]
"BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER" (1988)
All but the last of these books were published by North
Pacific Publishers, P.O. Box 13255, Portland, OR 97213, and
should be available via inter-library loan if your local
university or public library doesn't have each of them.
Several of them, INCLUDING the last one, are available
from: The International Society of Unified Science (ISUS),
1680 E. Atkin Ave., Salt Lake City, Utah 84106. This is the
organization that was started to promote Larson's Theory.
They have other related publications, including the quarterly
journal "RECIPROCITY".
Physicist Dewey B. Larson's Background
Physicist Dewey B. Larson was a retired Engineer
(Chemical or Electrical). He was about 91 years old when he
died in May 1989. He had a Bachelor of Science Degree in
Engineering Science from Oregon State University. He
developed his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe while trying to develop a way to COMPUTE
chemical properties based only on the elements used.
Larson's lack of a fancy "PH.D." degree might be one
reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him, but it is
NOT A VALID REASON. Sometimes it takes a relative outsider
to CLEARLY SEE THE FOREST THROUGH THE TREES. At the same
time, it is clear from his books that he also knew ORTHODOX
physics and astronomy as well as ANY physicist or astronomer,
well enough to point out all their CONTRADICTIONS, AD HOC
ASSUMPTIONS, PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE, IN-CONSISTENCIES, ETC..
Larson did NOT have the funds, etc. to experimentally
test his Theory. And it was NOT necessary for him to do so.
He simply compared the various parts of his Theory with OTHER
researchers' experimental and observational data. And in
many cases, HIS explanation FIT BETTER.
A SELF-CONSISTENT Theory is MUCH MORE than the ORTHODOX
physicists and astronomers have! They CLAIM to be looking
for a "unified field theory" that works, but have been
IGNORING one for over 30 years now!
"Modern physics" does NOT explain the physical universe
so well. Some parts of some of Larson's books are FULL of
quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who
agree. And remember that "epicycles", "crystal spheres",
"geocentricity", "flat earth theory", etc., ALSO once SEEMED
to explain it well, but were later proved CONCEPTUALLY WRONG.
Prof. Frank H. Meyer, Professor Emeritus of UW-Superior,
was/is a STRONG PROPONENT of Larson's Theory, and was (or
still is) President of Larson's organization, "THE
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF UNIFIED SCIENCE", and Editor of
their quarterly Journal "RECIPROCITY". He moved to
Minneapolis after retiring.
"Super Collider" BOONDOGGLE!
I am AGAINST contruction of the "Superconducting Super
Collider", in Texas or anywhere else. It would be a GROSS
WASTE of money, and contribute almost NOTHING of "scientific"
value.
Most physicists don't realize it, but, according to the
comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the late Physicist
Dewey B. Larson, as described in his books, the strange GOOFY
particles ("mesons", "hyperons", ALLEGED "quarks", etc.)
which they are finding in EXISTING colliders (Fermi Lab,
Cern, etc.) are really just ATOMS of ANTI-MATTER, which are
CREATED by the high-energy colliding beams, and which quickly
disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible
with their environment.
A larger and more expensive collider will ONLY create a
few more elements of anti-matter that the physicists have not
seen there before, and the physicists will be EVEN MORE
CONFUSED THAN THEY ARE NOW!
Are a few more types of anti-matter atoms worth the $8.3
BILLION cost?!! Don't we have much more important uses for
this WASTED money?!
Another thing to consider is that the primary proposed
location in Texas has a serious and growing problem with some
kind of "fire ants" eating the insulation off underground
cables. How much POISONING of the ground and ground water
with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of
the "Supercollider"?!
Naming the "Super Collider" after Ronald Reagon, as
proposed, is TOTALLY ABSURD! If it is built, it should be
named after a leading particle PHYSICIST.
LARSONIAN Anti-Matter
In Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe, anti-matter is NOT a simple case of
opposite charges of the same types of particles. It has more
to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the
photons of which they are made, in relation to the
vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light,
which Larson calls "Unit Velocity" and the "Natural Datum".
In Larson's Theory, a positron is actually a particle of
MATTER, NOT anti-matter. When a positron and electron meet,
the rotational vibrations (charges) and rotations of their
respective photons (of which they are made) neutralize each
other.
In Larson's Theory, the ANTI-MATTER half of the physical
universe has THREE dimensions of TIME, and ONLY ONE dimension
of space, and exists in a RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP to our
MATERIAL half.
LARSONIAN Relativity
The perihelion point in the orbit of the planet Mercury
has been observed and precisely measured to ADVANCE at the
rate of 574 seconds of arc per century. 531 seconds of this
advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational
perturbations from the other planets (Venus, Earth, Jupiter,
etc.). The remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to
help "prove" Einstein's "General Theory of Relativity".
But the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson achieved results
CLOSER to the 43 seconds than "General Relativity" can, by
INSTEAD using "SPECIAL Relativity". In one or more of his
books, he applied the LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION on the HIGH
ORBITAL SPEED of Mercury.
Larson TOTALLY REJECTED "General Relativity" as another
MATHEMATICAL FANTASY. He also REJECTED most of "Special
Relativity", including the parts about "mass increases" near
the speed of light, and the use of the Lorentz Transform on
doppler shifts, (Those quasars with red-shifts greater than
1.000 REALLY ARE MOVING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT,
although most of that motion is away from us IN TIME.).
In Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe, there are THREE dimensions of time instead
of only one. But two of those dimensions can NOT be measured
from our material half of the physical universe. The one
dimension that we CAN measure is the CLOCK time. At low
relative speeds, the values of the other two dimensions are
NEGLIGIBLE; but at high speeds, they become significant, and
the Lorentz Transformation must be used as a FUDGE FACTOR.
[Larson often used the term "COORDINATE TIME" when writing
about this.]
In regard to "mass increases", it has been PROVEN in
atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near
the speed of light. But the formula for acceleration is
ACCELERATION = FORCE / MASS, (a = F/m). Orthodox physicists
are IGNORING the THIRD FACTOR: FORCE. In Larson's Theory,
mass STAYS CONSTANT and FORCE drops toward zero. FORCE is
actually a MOTION, or COMBINATIONS of MOTIONS, or RELATIONS
BETWEEN MOTIONS, including INward and OUTward SCALAR MOTIONS.
The expansion of the universe, for example, is an OUTward
SCALAR motion inherent in the universe and NOT a result of
the so-called "Big Bang" (which is yet another MATHEMATICAL
FANTASY).
THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION
I wish to recommend to EVERYONE the book "THE UNIVERSE
OF MOTION", by Dewey B. Larson, 1984, North Pacific
Publishers, (P.O. Box 13255, Portland, Oregon 97213), 456
pages, indexed, hardcover.
It contains the Astrophysical portions of a GENERAL
UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by that
author, an UNrecognized GENIUS, more than thirty years ago.
It contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL Astrophysical
mysteries, including the FORMATION of galaxies, binary and
multiple star systems, and solar systems, the TRUE ORIGIN of
the "3-degree" background radiation, cosmic rays, and gamma-
ray bursts, and the TRUE NATURE of quasars, pulsars, white
dwarfs, exploding galaxies, etc..
It contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are ALL
looking for, if they are ready to seriously consider it with
OPEN MINDS!
The following is an example of his Theory's success:
In his first book in 1959, "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL
UNIVERSE", Larson predicted the existence of EXPLODING
GALAXIES, several years BEFORE astronomers started finding
them. They are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of Larson's
comprehensive Theory. And when QUASARS were discovered, he
had an immediate related explanation for them also.
GAMMA-RAY BURSTS
Astro-physicists and astronomers are still scratching
their heads about the mysterious GAMMA-RAY BURSTS. They were
originally thought to originate from "neutron stars" in the
disc of our galaxy. But the new Gamma Ray Telescope now in
Earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions
uniformly, and their source locations in space do NOT
correspond to any known objects, (except for a few cases of
directional coincidence).
Gamma-ray bursts are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of the
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by
the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson. According to page 386 of
his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", published in 1984, the
gamma-ray bursts are coming from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the
ANTI-MATTER HALF of the physical universe, which Larson calls
the "Cosmic Sector". Because of the relationship between the
anti-matter and material halves of the physical universe, and
the way they are connected together, the gamma-ray bursts can
pop into our material half anywhere in space, seemingly at
random. (This is WHY the source locations of the bursts do
not correspond with known objects, and come from all
directions uniformly.)
I wonder how close to us in space a source location
would have to be for a gamma-ray burst to kill all or most
life on Earth! There would be NO WAY to predict one, NOR to
stop it!
Perhaps some of the MASS EXTINCTIONS of the past, which
are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids, were
actually caused by nearby GAMMA-RAY BURSTS!
LARSONIAN Binary Star Formation
About half of all the stars in the galaxy in the
vicinity of the sun are binary or double. But orthodox
astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory
theory about how they form or why there are so many of them.
But binary star systems are actually a LIKELY
CONSEQUENCE of the comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of
the physical universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey
B. Larson.
I will try to summarize Larsons explanation, which is
detailed in Chapter 7 of his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION"
and in some of his other books.
First of all, according to Larson, stars do NOT generate
energy by "fusion". A small fraction comes from slow
gravitational collapse. The rest results from the COMPLETE
ANNIHILATION of HEAVY elements (heavier than IRON). Each
element has a DESTRUCTIVE TEMPERATURE LIMIT. The heavier the
element is, the lower is this limit. A star's internal
temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and
absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays, gradually
reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and
lighter elements.
When the internal temperature of the star reaches the
destructive temperature limit of IRON, there is a Type I
SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION! This is because there is SO MUCH iron
present; and that is related to the structure of iron atoms
and the atom building process, which Larson explains in some
of his books [better than I can].
When the star explodes, the lighter material on the
outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less
than the speed of light. The heavier material in the center
portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to
the speed of light, because of the high temperature. The
explosion pushes that material OVER the speed of light, and
it expands OUTWARD IN TIME, which is equivalent to INWARD IN
SPACE, and it often actually DISAPPEARS for a while.
Over long periods of time, both masses start to fall
back gravitationally. The material that had been blown
outward in space now starts to form a RED GIANT star. The
material that had been blown OUTWARD IN TIME starts to form a
WHITE DWARF star. BOTH stars then start moving back toward
the "MAIN SEQUENCE" from opposite directions on the H-R
Diagram.
The chances of the two masses falling back into the
exact same location in space, making a single lone star
again, are near zero. They will instead form a BINARY
system, orbiting each other.
According to Larson, a white dwarf star has an INVERSE
DENSITY GRADIENT (is densest at its SURFACE), because the
material at its center is most widely dispersed (blown
outward) in time. This ELIMINATES the need to resort to
MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES about "degenerate matter", "neutron
stars", "black holes", etc..
LARSONIAN Solar System Formation
If the mass of the heavy material at the center of the
exploding star is relatively SMALL, then, instead of a single
white dwarf star, there will be SEVERAL "mini" white dwarf
stars (revolving around the red giant star, but probably
still too far away in three-dimensional TIME to be affected
by its heat, etc.). These will become PLANETS!
In Chapter 7 of THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION, Larson used all
this information, and other principles of his comprehensive
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, to derive
his own version of Bode's Law.
"Black Hole" FANTASY!
I heard that physicist Stephen W. Hawking recently
completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of TWO "black
holes" merging together into a SINGLE "black hole", and
concluded that the new "black hole" would have MORE MASS than
the sum of the two original "black holes".
Such a result should be recognized by EVERYone as a RED
FLAG, causing widespread DOUBT about the whole IDEA of "black
holes", etc.!
After reading Physicist Dewey B. Larson's books about
his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe, especially his book "THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION", it is
clear to me that "black holes" are NOTHING more than
MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES! The strange object at Cygnus X-1 is
just an unusually massive WHITE DWARF STAR, NOT the "black
hole" that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want
to "prove" their theory.
By the way, I do NOT understand why so much publicity is
being given to physicist Stephen Hawking. The physicists and
astronomers seem to be acting as if Hawking's severe physical
problem somehow makes him "wiser". It does NOT!
I wish the same attention had been given to Physicist
Dewey B. Larson while he was still alive. Widespread
publicity and attention should NOW be given to Larson's
Theory, books, and organization (The International Society of
Unified Science).
ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION
I heard of that concept many years ago, in connection
with UFO's and unorthodox inventors, but I never was able to
find out how or why they work, or how they are constructed.
I found a possible clue about why they might work on
pages 112-113 of the book "BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER", by
the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson, which describes part of
Larson's comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe. I quote one paragraph:
"As indicated in the preceding chapter, the development
of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally
different concept of the nature of electrical resistance.
The electrons, we find, are derived from the environment. It
was brought out in Volume I [Larson's book "NOTHING BUT
MOTION"] that there are physical processes in operation which
produce electrons in substantial quantities, and that,
although the motions that constitute these electrons are, in
many cases, absorbed by atomic structures, the opportunities
for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are
limited. It follows that there is always a large excess of
free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the
universe, most of which are uncharged. In this uncharged
state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension
space, because they are inherently rotating units of space,
and the relation of space to space is not motion. In open
space, therefore, each uncharged electron remains permanently
in the same location with respect to the natural reference
system, in the manner of a photon. In the context of the
stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron,
like the photon, is carried outward at the speed of light by
the progression of the natural reference system. All
material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons
similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation.
Meanwhile there are other processes, to be discussed later,
whereby electrons are returned to the environment. The
electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth
therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level."
Note that in Larson's Theory, UNcharged electrons are
also massLESS, and are basically photons of light of a
particular frequency (above the "unit" frequency) spinning
around one axis at a particular rate (below the "unit" rate).
("Unit velocity" is the speed of light, and there are
vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light,
according to Larson's Theory.) [I might have the "above" and
"below" labels mixed up.]
Larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass-
LESS UN-charged electrons flying around at the speed of
light!
If this is true, then the ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION
fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these
electrons, or other particles in space, perhaps GIVING them a
charge (and mass) and shooting them toward the rear to
achieve propulsion. (In Larson's Theory, an electrical charge
is a one-dimensional rotational vibration of a particular
frequency (above the "unit" frequency) superimposed on the
rotation of the particle.)
The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to
confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is
generated in clouds.
SUPPRESSION of LARSONIAN Physics
The comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson has
been available for more than 30 YEARS, published in 1959 in
his first book "THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE".
It is TOTALLY UN-SCIENTIFIC for Hawking, Wheeler, Sagan,
and the other SACRED PRIESTS of the RELIGION they call
"science" (or "physics", or "astronomy", etc.), as well as
the "scientific" literature and the "education" systems, to
TOTALLY IGNORE Larson's Theory has they have.
Larson's Theory has excellent explanations for many
things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers, such
as gamma-ray bursts and the nature of quasars.
Larson's Theory deserves to be HONESTLY and OPENLY
discussed in the physics, chemistry, and astronomy journals,
in the U.S. and elsewhere. And at least the basic principles
of Larson's Theory should be included in all related courses
at UW-EC, UW-Madison, Cambridge, Cornell University, and
elsewhere, so that students are not kept in the dark about a
worthy alternative to the DOGMA they are being fed.
For more information, answers to your questions, etc.,
please consult my CITED SOURCES (especially Larson's BOOKS).
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT partial summary is ENCOURAGED.
Robert E. McElwaine
B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
after prepro From mcelwrecnsvaxuwecedu
Subject LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 552
LARSONIAN Astronomy and Physics
Orthodox physicists astronomers and astrophysicists
CLAIM to be looking for a Unified Field Theory in which all
of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single
set of laws or equations But they have been systematically
IGNORING or SUPPRESSING an excellent one for 30 years
The late Physicist Dewey B Larsons comprehensive
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe which he
calls the Reciprocal System is built on two fundamental
postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of
space and time
1 The physical universe is composed ENTIRELY of ONE
component MOTION existing in THREE dimensions in DISCRETE
UNITS and in two RECIPROCAL forms SPACE and TIME
2 The physical universe conforms to the relations of
ORDINARY COMMUTATIVE mathematics its magnitudes are
ABSOLUTE and its geometry is EUCLIDEAN
From these two postulates Larson developed a COMPLETE
Theoretical Universe using various combinations of
translational vibrational rotational and vibrational
rotational MOTIONS the concepts of INward and OUTward
SCALAR MOTIONS and speeds in relation to the Speed of Light
which Larson called UNIT VELOCITY and THE NATURAL
DATUM
At each step in the development Larson was able to
MATCH objects in his Theoretical Universe with objects in the
REAL physical universe photons subatomic particles
[INCOMPLETE ATOMS] charges atoms molecules globular star
clusters galaxies binary star systems solar systems white
dwarf stars pulsars quasars ETC even objects NOT YET
DISCOVERED THEN such as EXPLODING GALAXIES and GAMMARAY
BURSTS
And applying his Theory to his NEW model of the atom
Larson was able to precisely and accurately CALCULATE inter
atomic distances in crystals and molecules compressibility
and thermal expansion of solids and other properties of
matter
All of this is described in good detail withOUT fancy
complex mathematics in his books
BOOKS of Dewey B Larson
The following is a complete list of the late Physicist
Dewey B Larsons books about his comprehensive GENERAL
UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe Some of the early
books are out of print now but still available through
interlibrary loan
The Structure of the Physical Universe 1959
The Case AGAINST the Nuclear Atom 1963
Beyond Newton 1964
New Light on Space and Time 1965
Quasars and Pulsars 1971
NOTHING BUT MOTION 1979
[A 950 SUBSTITUTE for the 83 BILLION Super
Collider]
[The last four chapters EXPLAIN chemical bonding]
The Neglected Facts of Science 1982
THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION 1984
[FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL astrophysical
mysteries]
BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER 1988
All but the last of these books were published by North
Pacific Publishers PO Box 13255 Portland OR 97213 and
should be available via interlibrary loan if your local
university or public library doesnt have each of them
Several of them INCLUDING the last one are available
from The International Society of Unified Science ISUS
1680 E Atkin Ave Salt Lake City Utah 84106 This is the
organization that was started to promote Larsons Theory
They have other related publications including the quarterly
journal RECIPROCITY
Physicist Dewey B Larsons Background
Physicist Dewey B Larson was a retired Engineer
Chemical or Electrical He was about 91 years old when he
died in May 1989 He had a Bachelor of Science Degree in
Engineering Science from Oregon State University He
developed his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe while trying to develop a way to COMPUTE
chemical properties based only on the elements used
Larsons lack of a fancy PHD degree might be one
reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him but it is
NOT A VALID REASON Sometimes it takes a relative outsider
to CLEARLY SEE THE FOREST THROUGH THE TREES At the same
time it is clear from his books that he also knew ORTHODOX
physics and astronomy as well as ANY physicist or astronomer
well enough to point out all their CONTRADICTIONS AD HOC
ASSUMPTIONS PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE INCONSISTENCIES ETC
Larson did NOT have the funds etc to experimentally
test his Theory And it was NOT necessary for him to do so
He simply compared the various parts of his Theory with OTHER
researchers experimental and observational data And in
many cases HIS explanation FIT BETTER
A SELFCONSISTENT Theory is MUCH MORE than the ORTHODOX
physicists and astronomers have They CLAIM to be looking
for a unified field theory that works but have been
IGNORING one for over 30 years now
Modern physics does NOT explain the physical universe
so well Some parts of some of Larsons books are FULL of
quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who
agree And remember that epicycles crystal spheres
geocentricity flat earth theory etc ALSO once SEEMED
to explain it well but were later proved CONCEPTUALLY WRONG
Prof Frank H Meyer Professor Emeritus of UWSuperior
wasis a STRONG PROPONENT of Larsons Theory and was or
still is President of Larsons organization THE
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF UNIFIED SCIENCE and Editor of
their quarterly Journal RECIPROCITY He moved to
Minneapolis after retiring
Super Collider BOONDOGGLE
I am AGAINST contruction of the Superconducting Super
Collider in Texas or anywhere else It would be a GROSS
WASTE of money and contribute almost NOTHING of scientific
value
Most physicists dont realize it but according to the
comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the late Physicist
Dewey B Larson as described in his books the strange GOOFY
particles mesons hyperons ALLEGED quarks etc
which they are finding in EXISTING colliders Fermi Lab
Cern etc are really just ATOMS of ANTIMATTER which are
CREATED by the highenergy colliding beams and which quickly
disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible
with their environment
A larger and more expensive collider will ONLY create a
few more elements of antimatter that the physicists have not
seen there before and the physicists will be EVEN MORE
CONFUSED THAN THEY ARE NOW
Are a few more types of antimatter atoms worth the 83
BILLION cost Dont we have much more important uses for
this WASTED money
Another thing to consider is that the primary proposed
location in Texas has a serious and growing problem with some
kind of fire ants eating the insulation off underground
cables How much POISONING of the ground and ground water
with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of
the Supercollider
Naming the Super Collider after Ronald Reagon as
proposed is TOTALLY ABSURD If it is built it should be
named after a leading particle PHYSICIST
LARSONIAN AntiMatter
In Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe antimatter is NOT a simple case of
opposite charges of the same types of particles It has more
to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the
photons of which they are made in relation to the
vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light
which Larson calls Unit Velocity and the Natural Datum
In Larsons Theory a positron is actually a particle of
MATTER NOT antimatter When a positron and electron meet
the rotational vibrations charges and rotations of their
respective photons of which they are made neutralize each
other
In Larsons Theory the ANTIMATTER half of the physical
universe has THREE dimensions of TIME and ONLY ONE dimension
of space and exists in a RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP to our
MATERIAL half
LARSONIAN Relativity
The perihelion point in the orbit of the planet Mercury
has been observed and precisely measured to ADVANCE at the
rate of 574 seconds of arc per century 531 seconds of this
advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational
perturbations from the other planets Venus Earth Jupiter
etc The remaining 43 seconds of arc are being used to
help prove Einsteins General Theory of Relativity
But the late Physicist Dewey B Larson achieved results
CLOSER to the 43 seconds than General Relativity can by
INSTEAD using SPECIAL Relativity In one or more of his
books he applied the LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION on the HIGH
ORBITAL SPEED of Mercury
Larson TOTALLY REJECTED General Relativity as another
MATHEMATICAL FANTASY He also REJECTED most of Special
Relativity including the parts about mass increases near
the speed of light and the use of the Lorentz Transform on
doppler shifts Those quasars with redshifts greater than
1000 REALLY ARE MOVING FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT
although most of that motion is away from us IN TIME
In Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the
physical universe there are THREE dimensions of time instead
of only one But two of those dimensions can NOT be measured
from our material half of the physical universe The one
dimension that we CAN measure is the CLOCK time At low
relative speeds the values of the other two dimensions are
NEGLIGIBLE but at high speeds they become significant and
the Lorentz Transformation must be used as a FUDGE FACTOR
[Larson often used the term COORDINATE TIME when writing
about this]
In regard to mass increases it has been PROVEN in
atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near
the speed of light But the formula for acceleration is
ACCELERATION FORCE MASS a Fm Orthodox physicists
are IGNORING the THIRD FACTOR FORCE In Larsons Theory
mass STAYS CONSTANT and FORCE drops toward zero FORCE is
actually a MOTION or COMBINATIONS of MOTIONS or RELATIONS
BETWEEN MOTIONS including INward and OUTward SCALAR MOTIONS
The expansion of the universe for example is an OUTward
SCALAR motion inherent in the universe and NOT a result of
the socalled Big Bang which is yet another MATHEMATICAL
FANTASY
THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION
I wish to recommend to EVERYONE the book THE UNIVERSE
OF MOTION by Dewey B Larson 1984 North Pacific
Publishers PO Box 13255 Portland Oregon 97213 456
pages indexed hardcover
It contains the Astrophysical portions of a GENERAL
UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by that
author an UNrecognized GENIUS more than thirty years ago
It contains FINAL SOLUTIONS to most ALL Astrophysical
mysteries including the FORMATION of galaxies binary and
multiple star systems and solar systems the TRUE ORIGIN of
the 3degree background radiation cosmic rays and gamma
ray bursts and the TRUE NATURE of quasars pulsars white
dwarfs exploding galaxies etc
It contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are ALL
looking for if they are ready to seriously consider it with
OPEN MINDS
The following is an example of his Theorys success
In his first book in 1959 THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL
UNIVERSE Larson predicted the existence of EXPLODING
GALAXIES several years BEFORE astronomers started finding
them They are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of Larsons
comprehensive Theory And when QUASARS were discovered he
had an immediate related explanation for them also
GAMMARAY BURSTS
Astrophysicists and astronomers are still scratching
their heads about the mysterious GAMMARAY BURSTS They were
originally thought to originate from neutron stars in the
disc of our galaxy But the new Gamma Ray Telescope now in
Earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions
uniformly and their source locations in space do NOT
correspond to any known objects except for a few cases of
directional coincidence
Gammaray bursts are a NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of the
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe developed by
the late Physicist Dewey B Larson According to page 386 of
his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION published in 1984 the
gammaray bursts are coming from SUPERNOVA EXPLOSIONS in the
ANTIMATTER HALF of the physical universe which Larson calls
the Cosmic Sector Because of the relationship between the
antimatter and material halves of the physical universe and
the way they are connected together the gammaray bursts can
pop into our material half anywhere in space seemingly at
random This is WHY the source locations of the bursts do
not correspond with known objects and come from all
directions uniformly
I wonder how close to us in space a source location
would have to be for a gammaray burst to kill all or most
life on Earth There would be NO WAY to predict one NOR to
stop it
Perhaps some of the MASS EXTINCTIONS of the past which
are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids were
actually caused by nearby GAMMARAY BURSTS
LARSONIAN Binary Star Formation
About half of all the stars in the galaxy in the
vicinity of the sun are binary or double But orthodox
astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory
theory about how they form or why there are so many of them
But binary star systems are actually a LIKELY
CONSEQUENCE of the comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of
the physical universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey
B Larson
I will try to summarize Larsons explanation which is
detailed in Chapter 7 of his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION
and in some of his other books
First of all according to Larson stars do NOT generate
energy by fusion A small fraction comes from slow
gravitational collapse The rest results from the COMPLETE
ANNIHILATION of HEAVY elements heavier than IRON Each
element has a DESTRUCTIVE TEMPERATURE LIMIT The heavier the
element is the lower is this limit A stars internal
temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and
absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays gradually
reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and
lighter elements
When the internal temperature of the star reaches the
destructive temperature limit of IRON there is a Type I
SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION This is because there is SO MUCH iron
present and that is related to the structure of iron atoms
and the atom building process which Larson explains in some
of his books [better than I can]
When the star explodes the lighter material on the
outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less
than the speed of light The heavier material in the center
portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to
the speed of light because of the high temperature The
explosion pushes that material OVER the speed of light and
it expands OUTWARD IN TIME which is equivalent to INWARD IN
SPACE and it often actually DISAPPEARS for a while
Over long periods of time both masses start to fall
back gravitationally The material that had been blown
outward in space now starts to form a RED GIANT star The
material that had been blown OUTWARD IN TIME starts to form a
WHITE DWARF star BOTH stars then start moving back toward
the MAIN SEQUENCE from opposite directions on the HR
Diagram
The chances of the two masses falling back into the
exact same location in space making a single lone star
again are near zero They will instead form a BINARY
system orbiting each other
According to Larson a white dwarf star has an INVERSE
DENSITY GRADIENT is densest at its SURFACE because the
material at its center is most widely dispersed blown
outward in time This ELIMINATES the need to resort to
MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES about degenerate matter neutron
stars black holes etc
LARSONIAN Solar System Formation
If the mass of the heavy material at the center of the
exploding star is relatively SMALL then instead of a single
white dwarf star there will be SEVERAL mini white dwarf
stars revolving around the red giant star but probably
still too far away in threedimensional TIME to be affected
by its heat etc These will become PLANETS
In Chapter 7 of THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION Larson used all
this information and other principles of his comprehensive
GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe to derive
his own version of Bodes Law
Black Hole FANTASY
I heard that physicist Stephen W Hawking recently
completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of TWO black
holes merging together into a SINGLE black hole and
concluded that the new black hole would have MORE MASS than
the sum of the two original black holes
Such a result should be recognized by EVERYone as a RED
FLAG causing widespread DOUBT about the whole IDEA of black
holes etc
After reading Physicist Dewey B Larsons books about
his comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe especially his book THE UNIVERSE OF MOTION it is
clear to me that black holes are NOTHING more than
MATHEMATICAL FANTASIES The strange object at Cygnus X1 is
just an unusually massive WHITE DWARF STAR NOT the black
hole that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want
to prove their theory
By the way I do NOT understand why so much publicity is
being given to physicist Stephen Hawking The physicists and
astronomers seem to be acting as if Hawkings severe physical
problem somehow makes him wiser It does NOT
I wish the same attention had been given to Physicist
Dewey B Larson while he was still alive Widespread
publicity and attention should NOW be given to Larsons
Theory books and organization The International Society of
Unified Science
ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION
I heard of that concept many years ago in connection
with UFOs and unorthodox inventors but I never was able to
find out how or why they work or how they are constructed
I found a possible clue about why they might work on
pages 112113 of the book BASIC PROPERTIES OF MATTER by
the late Physicist Dewey B Larson which describes part of
Larsons comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe I quote one paragraph
As indicated in the preceding chapter the development
of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally
different concept of the nature of electrical resistance
The electrons we find are derived from the environment It
was brought out in Volume I [Larsons book NOTHING BUT
MOTION] that there are physical processes in operation which
produce electrons in substantial quantities and that
although the motions that constitute these electrons are in
many cases absorbed by atomic structures the opportunities
for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are
limited It follows that there is always a large excess of
free electrons in the material sector [material half] of the
universe most of which are uncharged In this uncharged
state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension
space because they are inherently rotating units of space
and the relation of space to space is not motion In open
space therefore each uncharged electron remains permanently
in the same location with respect to the natural reference
system in the manner of a photon In the context of the
stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron
like the photon is carried outward at the speed of light by
the progression of the natural reference system All
material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons
similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation
Meanwhile there are other processes to be discussed later
whereby electrons are returned to the environment The
electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth
therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level
Note that in Larsons Theory UNcharged electrons are
also massLESS and are basically photons of light of a
particular frequency above the unit frequency spinning
around one axis at a particular rate below the unit rate
Unit velocity is the speed of light and there are
vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light
according to Larsons Theory [I might have the above and
below labels mixed up]
Larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass
LESS UNcharged electrons flying around at the speed of
light
If this is true then the ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION
fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these
electrons or other particles in space perhaps GIVING them a
charge and mass and shooting them toward the rear to
achieve propulsion In Larsons Theory an electrical charge
is a onedimensional rotational vibration of a particular
frequency above the unit frequency superimposed on the
rotation of the particle
The paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to
confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is
generated in clouds
SUPPRESSION of LARSONIAN Physics
The comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical
universe developed by the late Physicist Dewey B Larson has
been available for more than 30 YEARS published in 1959 in
his first book THE STRUCTURE OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE
It is TOTALLY UNSCIENTIFIC for Hawking Wheeler Sagan
and the other SACRED PRIESTS of the RELIGION they call
science or physics or astronomy etc as well as
the scientific literature and the education systems to
TOTALLY IGNORE Larsons Theory has they have
Larsons Theory has excellent explanations for many
things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers such
as gammaray bursts and the nature of quasars
Larsons Theory deserves to be HONESTLY and OPENLY
discussed in the physics chemistry and astronomy journals
in the US and elsewhere And at least the basic principles
of Larsons Theory should be included in all related courses
at UWEC UWMadison Cambridge Cornell University and
elsewhere so that students are not kept in the dark about a
worthy alternative to the DOGMA they are being fed
For more information answers to your questions etc
please consult my CITED SOURCES especially Larsons BOOKS
UNaltered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT partial summary is ENCOURAGED
Robert E McElwaine
BS Physics and Astronomy UWEC
preprocess doc From: mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: MDSSC
Lines: 60
jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
>mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus) writes:
>>cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
>>> The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit
>>> of Saint Louis venture to his financial backers. But I strongly suspect
>>> that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more
>>> was at stake than $25,000. Could it work with the moon? Who are the
>>> far-sighted financial backers of today?
>> The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
>>and-civilized areas are obvious. Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
>>The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
>>transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.
> Lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties.
Of course; sorry for the misunderstanding. I was referring to the fact
that far more aeronautical development took place in the '30's. For much
of the '20's, the super-abundance of Jennies and OX-5 engines held down the
industry. By 1926, many of the obsolete WWI aircraft had been retired
and Whirlwind had their power/weight ratio and reliability up to the point
where long-distance flights became practical. It's important to note that
the Atlantic was flown not once but THREE times in 1927: Lindbergh,
Chamberlin and Levine, and Byrd's _America_. "When it's time to railroad,
you railroad."
>>It didn't require gov't to fund these as long as something was known about
>>the potential for profit at the destination. In practice, some were gov't
>>funded, some were private.
>Could you give examples of privately funded ones?
Not off the top of my head; I'll have to dig out my reference books again.
However, I will say that the most common arrangement in Prince Henry the
Navigator's Portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and
merchants to put up the rest. They profits from the voyage would then be
shared.
>>But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
>>of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
>A person who puts up $X billion for a moon base is much more likely to do
>it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money
>off the deal.
The problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a
Moon Base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations
can even consider putting up. The Kremer Prizes (human powered aircraft),
Orteig's prize, Lord Northcliffe's prize for crossing the Atlantic (won in
1919 by Alcock and Brown) were MUCH smaller. The technologies required were
within the reach of individual inventors, and the prize amounts were well
within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals. I think that only
a gov't could afford to set up a $1B+ prize for any purpose whatsoever.
Note that Burt Rutan suggested that NASP could be built most cheaply by
taking out an ad in AvWeek stating that the first company to build a plane
that could take off and fly the profile would be handed $3B, no questions
asked.
--
Keith Mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> |
N5WVR <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> |
"Black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, |
when your back's against the wall...." -Leslie Fish |
after prepro From mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization MDSSC
Lines 60
jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus writes
cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit
of Saint Louis venture to his financial backers But I strongly suspect
that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more
was at stake than 25000 Could it work with the moon Who are the
farsighted financial backers of today
The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery
Lindberghs flight took place in 27 not the thirties
Of course sorry for the misunderstanding I was referring to the fact
that far more aeronautical development took place in the 30s For much
of the 20s the superabundance of Jennies and OX5 engines held down the
industry By 1926 many of the obsolete WWI aircraft had been retired
and Whirlwind had their powerweight ratio and reliability up to the point
where longdistance flights became practical Its important to note that
the Atlantic was flown not once but THREE times in 1927 Lindbergh
Chamberlin and Levine and Byrds _America_ When its time to railroad
you railroad
It didnt require govt to fund these as long as something was known about
the potential for profit at the destination In practice some were govt
funded some were private
Could you give examples of privately funded ones
Not off the top of my head Ill have to dig out my reference books again
However I will say that the most common arrangement in Prince Henry the
Navigators Portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and
merchants to put up the rest They profits from the voyage would then be
shared
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff
A person who puts up X billion for a moon base is much more likely to do
it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money
off the deal
The problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a
Moon Base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations
can even consider putting up The Kremer Prizes human powered aircraft
Orteigs prize Lord Northcliffes prize for crossing the Atlantic won in
1919 by Alcock and Brown were MUCH smaller The technologies required were
within the reach of individual inventors and the prize amounts were well
within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals I think that only
a govt could afford to set up a 1B prize for any purpose whatsoever
Note that Burt Rutan suggested that NASP could be built most cheaply by
taking out an ad in AvWeek stating that the first company to build a plane
that could take off and fly the profile would be handed 3B no questions
asked
Keith Mancus
N5WVR
Black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall
when your backs against the wall Leslie Fish
preprocess doc zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 28
In article <1pi8h5INNq40@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> (reference line trimmed)
|>
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> [...]
|>
|> >There is a good deal more confusion here. You started off with the
|> >assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
|> >here, you finished up with a recursive definition. Murder is
|> >"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
|> >requires an appeal to morality.
|>
|> Yes.
|>
|> >Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little. Now you are
|> >asking what is the "goal"? What do you mean by "goal?". Are you
|> >suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
|> >and we form our morals to achieve it?
|>
|> Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
|> propogation of the species.
I got just this far. What do you mean by "goal"? I hope you
don't mean to imply that evolution has a conscious "goal".
jon.
after prepro zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
reference line trimmed
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
[]
There is a good deal more confusion here You started off with the
assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
here you finished up with a recursive definition Murder is
objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
requires an appeal to morality
Yes
Now you have switch targets a little but only a little Now you are
asking what is the goal What do you mean by goal Are you
suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
and we form our morals to achieve it
Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
propogation of the species
I got just this far What do you mean by goal I hope you
dont mean to imply that evolution has a conscious goal
jon
preprocess doc Subject: Space FAQ 02/15 - Network Resources
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:54:26 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <net_730956391@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 241
Archive-name: space/net
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:15 $
NETWORK RESOURCES
OVERVIEW
You may be reading this document on any one of an amazing variety of
computers, so much of the material below may not apply to you. In
general, however, systems connected to 'the net' fall in one of three
categories: Internet, Usenet, or BITNET. Electronic mail may be sent
between these networks, and other resources available on one of these
networks are sometimes accessible from other networks by email sent to
special 'servers'.
The space and astronomy discussion groups actually are composed of
several mechanisms with (mostly) transparent connections between them.
One mechanism is the mailing list, in which mail is sent to a central
distribution point which relays it to all recipients of the list. In
addition to the general lists for space (called SPACE Digest for
Internet users, and SPACE on BITNET), there are a number of more
specialized mailing lists described below.
A second mechanism is Usenet 'netnews'. This is somewhat like a bulletin
board operating on each system which is a part of the net. Netnews
separates contributions into hundreds of different categories based on a
'group name'. The groups dealing most closely with space topics are
called 'sci.space.news', 'sci.space', 'sci.space.shuttle', 'sci.astro',
and 'talk.politics.space'. Contributors 'post' submissions (called
'articles' in netnews terminology) on their local machine, which sends
it to other nearby machines. Similarly, articles sent from nearby
machines are stored locally and may be forwarded to other systems, so
that an article is posted locally and eventually reaches all the Usenet
sites interested in receiving the news group to which the article was
posted.
Gateway machines redirect the Usenet sci.space group into Internet and
BITNET mailing lists and vice versa; the other Usenet groups are not
accessible as mailing lists. If you can receive netnews, its more
flexible interface and access to a wider range of material usually make
it the preferred option.
MAILING LISTS
SPACE Digest is the main Internet list, and is now being run by the
International Space University (in only its second change of management
in over a decade). Email space-request@isu.isunet.edu (message body
should be in the format 'subscribe space John Public') to join. Note
that the moderated SPACE Magazine list is defunct at present for lack of
a moderator. Old copies of SPACE Digest since its inception in 1981 are
available by anonymous FTP. Retrieve
julius.cs.qub.ac.uk:pub/SpaceDigestArchive/README
for further details.
Elements is a moderated list for fast distribution of Space Shuttle
Keplerian Elements before and during Shuttle flights. NASA two line
elements are sent out on the list from Dr. Kelso, JSC, and other sources
as they are released. Email to elements-request@telesoft.com to join.
GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
System and other satellite navigation positioning systems. Email to
gps-request@esseye.si.com to join.
Space-investors is a list for information relevant to investing in
space-related companies. Email Vincent Cate (vac@cs.cmu.edu) to join.
Space-tech is a list for more technical discussion of space topics;
discussion has included esoteric propulsion technologies, asteroid
capture, starflight, orbital debris removal, etc. Email to
space-tech-request@cs.cmu.edu to join. Archives of old digests and
selected excerpts are available by anonymous FTP from
gs80.sp.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.205.90) in /usr/anon/public/space-tech,
or by email to space-tech-request if you don't have FTP access.
SEDS-L is a BITNET list for members of Students for the Exploration and
Development of Space and other interested parties. Email
LISTSERV@TAMVM1.BITNET with a message saying "SUBSCRIBE SEDS-L your
name". Email saying "INDEX SEDS-L" to list the archive contents.
SEDSNEWS is a BITNET list for news items, press releases, shuttle status
reports, and the like. This duplicates material which is also found in
Space Digest, sci.space, sci.space.shuttle, and sci.astro. Email
LISTSERV@TAMVM1.BITNET saying "SUBSCRIBE SEDSNEWS your name" to join.
Email saying "INDEX SEDSNEWS" to list the archive contents.
Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) runs a mailing list which
carries the contents of the sci.space.news Usenet group. Email him
to join the list.
As a general note, please mail to the *request* address to get off a
mailing list. SPACE Digest, for example, relays many inappropriate
'please remove me from this list' messages which are sent to the list
address rather than the request address.
PERIODICALLY UPDATED INFORMATION
In addition to this FAQ list, a broad variety of topical information is
posted to the net (unless otherwise noted, in the new group
sci.space.news created for this purpose). Please remember that the
individuals posting this information are performing a service for all
net readers, and don't take up their time with frivolous requests.
ACRONYMS
Garrett Wollman (wollman@UVM.EDU) posts an acronym list around the
first of each month.
ASTRO-FTP LIST
Veikko Makela (veikko.makela@helsinki.fi) posts a monthly list of
anonymous FTP servers containing astronomy and space related
material to sci.space and sci.astro.
AVIATION WEEK
Henry Spencer (henry@zoo.toronto.edu) posts summaries of
space-related stories in the weekly _Aviation Week and Space
Technology_.
BUYING TELESCOPES
Ronnie Kon (ronnie@cisco.com) posts a guide to buying telescopes to
sci.astro.
ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASA
Don Barry (don@chara.gsu.edu) posts the monthly Electronic Journal
of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic to sci.astro.
FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
Swaraj Jeyasingh (sjeyasin@axion.bt.co.uk) posts summaries of
space-related news from _Flight International_. This focuses more on
non-US space activities than Aviation Week.
LARGE ASTRONOMICAL PROJECTS
Robert Bunge (rbunge@access.digex.com) posts a list describing many
"Large Telescope Projects Either Being Considered or in the Works"
to sci.astro.
NASA HEADLINE NEWS & SHUTTLE REPORTS
Peter Yee (yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov) posts a variety of NASA material,
including NASA Headline News (with the schedule for NASA SELECT),
shuttle payload briefings and flight manifests, and KSC shuttle
status reports. For Usenet users, much of this material appears in
the group sci.space.shuttle.
NASA UPDATES
Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) posts frequent updates from
JPL, Ames, and other centers on the Ulysses, Gailileo, Pioneer,
Magellan, Landsat, and other missions.
ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
TS Kelso (tkelso@blackbird.afit.af.mil) posts orbital elements from
NASA Prediction Bulletins.
Mike Rose (mrose@stsci.edu) posts orbital elements for the Hubble
Space Telescope to sci.astro.
Jost Jahn (j.jahn@abbs.hanse.de) posts ephemerides for asteroids,
comets, conjunctions, and encounters to sci.astro.
SATELLITE LAUNCHES
Richard Langley (lang@unb.ca) posts SPACEWARN Bulletin, which
describes recent launch/orbital decay information and satellites
which are useful for scientific activities. Recent bulletins are
available by anonymous FTP from nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov in
ANON_DIR:[000000.ACTIVE.SPX].
SHUTTLE MANIFEST
Ken Hollis (gandalf@pro-electric.cts.com) posts a compressed version
of the Space Shuttle launch manifest to sci.space.shuttle. This
includes dates, times, payloads, and information on how to see
launches and landings.
SOLAR ACTIVITY
Cary Oler (oler@hg.uleth.ca) posts Solar Terrestrial reports
(describing solar activity and its effect on the Earth) to
sci.space. The report is issued in part from data released by the
Space Enviroment Services Center, Boulder Colorado. The intro
document needed to understand these reports is available by
anonymous FTP from solar.stanford.edu (36.10.0.4) in
pub/understanding_solar_terrestrial_reports. nic.funet.fi
(128.214.6.100) also has this document in
/pub/misc/rec.radio.shortwave/solarreports and is an archive site
for the reports (please note this site is in Europe, and the
connection to the US is only 56KB). A new primary archive site,
xi.uleth.ca (142.66.3.29), has recently been established and will be
actively supported.
SOVIET SPACE ACTIVITIES
Glenn Chapman (glennc@cs.sfu.ca) posts summaries of Soviet space
activities.
SPACE ACTIVIST NEWSLETTER
Allen Sherzer (aws@iti.org) posts a newsletter, "One Small Step for
a Space Activist," to talk.politics.space. It describes current
legislative activity affecting NASA and commercial space activities.
SPACE EVENTS CALENDAR
Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) posts a calendar including
anniversaries, conferences, launch dates, meteor showers and
eclipses, and other space-related events.
SPACE NEWS
John Magliacane (kd2bd@ka2qhd.UUCP) posts "SpaceNews" (covering
AMSATs, NOAA and other weather satellites, and other ham
information) to rec.radio.amateur.misc and sci.space.
SPACE REPORT
Jonathan McDowell (mcdowell@cfa.harvard.edu) posts "Jonathan's Space
Report" covering launches, landings, reentries, status reports,
satellite activities, etc.
TOWARD 2001
Bev Freed (freed@nss.fidonet.org) posts "Toward 2001", a weekly
global news summary reprinted from _Space Calendar_ magazine.
WARNING ABOUT NON-PUBLIC NETWORKS
(Included at the suggestion of Eugene Miya, who wrote the item)
NASA has an internal system of unclassified electronic mail and bulletin
boards. This system is not open for public use. Specifically, NASA
personnel and procurement operations are regarded with some sensitivity.
Contractors must renegotiate their contracts. The Fair and Open
Procurement Act does not look kindly to those having inside information.
Contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can
expect severe penalities. Unauthorized access attempts may subject you
to a fine and/or imprisonment in accordance with Title 18, USC, Section
1030. If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access, contact
NASA personnel.
Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste. None
have ever been substantiated to any significant degree. Readers
detecting Fraud, Waste, Abuse, or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
Inspector General (24-hours) at 800-424-9183 (can be anonymous) or write
NASA
Inspector General
P.O. Box 23089
L'enfant Plaza Station
Washington DC 20024
NEXT: FAQ #3/15 - Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.
after prepro Subject Space FAQ 0215 Network Resources
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195426 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 241
Archivename spacenet
Lastmodified Date 930401 143915
NETWORK RESOURCES
OVERVIEW
You may be reading this document on any one of an amazing variety of
computers so much of the material below may not apply to you In
general however systems connected to the net fall in one of three
categories Internet Usenet or BITNET Electronic mail may be sent
between these networks and other resources available on one of these
networks are sometimes accessible from other networks by email sent to
special servers
The space and astronomy discussion groups actually are composed of
several mechanisms with mostly transparent connections between them
One mechanism is the mailing list in which mail is sent to a central
distribution point which relays it to all recipients of the list In
addition to the general lists for space called SPACE Digest for
Internet users and SPACE on BITNET there are a number of more
specialized mailing lists described below
A second mechanism is Usenet netnews This is somewhat like a bulletin
board operating on each system which is a part of the net Netnews
separates contributions into hundreds of different categories based on a
group name The groups dealing most closely with space topics are
called scispacenews scispace scispaceshuttle sciastro
and talkpoliticsspace Contributors post submissions called
articles in netnews terminology on their local machine which sends
it to other nearby machines Similarly articles sent from nearby
machines are stored locally and may be forwarded to other systems so
that an article is posted locally and eventually reaches all the Usenet
sites interested in receiving the news group to which the article was
posted
Gateway machines redirect the Usenet scispace group into Internet and
BITNET mailing lists and vice versa the other Usenet groups are not
accessible as mailing lists If you can receive netnews its more
flexible interface and access to a wider range of material usually make
it the preferred option
MAILING LISTS
SPACE Digest is the main Internet list and is now being run by the
International Space University in only its second change of management
in over a decade Email spacerequestisuisunetedu message body
should be in the format subscribe space John Public to join Note
that the moderated SPACE Magazine list is defunct at present for lack of
a moderator Old copies of SPACE Digest since its inception in 1981 are
available by anonymous FTP Retrieve
juliuscsqubacukpubSpaceDigestArchiveREADME
for further details
Elements is a moderated list for fast distribution of Space Shuttle
Keplerian Elements before and during Shuttle flights NASA two line
elements are sent out on the list from Dr Kelso JSC and other sources
as they are released Email to elementsrequesttelesoftcom to join
GPS Digest is a moderated list for discussion of the Global Positioning
System and other satellite navigation positioning systems Email to
gpsrequestesseyesicom to join
Spaceinvestors is a list for information relevant to investing in
spacerelated companies Email Vincent Cate vaccscmuedu to join
Spacetech is a list for more technical discussion of space topics
discussion has included esoteric propulsion technologies asteroid
capture starflight orbital debris removal etc Email to
spacetechrequestcscmuedu to join Archives of old digests and
selected excerpts are available by anonymous FTP from
gs80spcscmuedu 128220590 in usranonpublicspacetech
or by email to spacetechrequest if you dont have FTP access
SEDSL is a BITNET list for members of Students for the Exploration and
Development of Space and other interested parties Email
LISTSERVTAMVM1BITNET with a message saying SUBSCRIBE SEDSL your
name Email saying INDEX SEDSL to list the archive contents
SEDSNEWS is a BITNET list for news items press releases shuttle status
reports and the like This duplicates material which is also found in
Space Digest scispace scispaceshuttle and sciastro Email
LISTSERVTAMVM1BITNET saying SUBSCRIBE SEDSNEWS your name to join
Email saying INDEX SEDSNEWS to list the archive contents
Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov runs a mailing list which
carries the contents of the scispacenews Usenet group Email him
to join the list
As a general note please mail to the request address to get off a
mailing list SPACE Digest for example relays many inappropriate
please remove me from this list messages which are sent to the list
address rather than the request address
PERIODICALLY UPDATED INFORMATION
In addition to this FAQ list a broad variety of topical information is
posted to the net unless otherwise noted in the new group
scispacenews created for this purpose Please remember that the
individuals posting this information are performing a service for all
net readers and dont take up their time with frivolous requests
ACRONYMS
Garrett Wollman wollmanUVMEDU posts an acronym list around the
first of each month
ASTROFTP LIST
Veikko Makela veikkomakelahelsinkifi posts a monthly list of
anonymous FTP servers containing astronomy and space related
material to scispace and sciastro
AVIATION WEEK
Henry Spencer henryzootorontoedu posts summaries of
spacerelated stories in the weekly _Aviation Week and Space
Technology_
BUYING TELESCOPES
Ronnie Kon ronnieciscocom posts a guide to buying telescopes to
sciastro
ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF THE ASA
Don Barry doncharagsuedu posts the monthly Electronic Journal
of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic to sciastro
FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL
Swaraj Jeyasingh sjeyasinaxionbtcouk posts summaries of
spacerelated news from _Flight International_ This focuses more on
nonUS space activities than Aviation Week
LARGE ASTRONOMICAL PROJECTS
Robert Bunge rbungeaccessdigexcom posts a list describing many
Large Telescope Projects Either Being Considered or in the Works
to sciastro
NASA HEADLINE NEWS SHUTTLE REPORTS
Peter Yee yeeamesarcnasagov posts a variety of NASA material
including NASA Headline News with the schedule for NASA SELECT
shuttle payload briefings and flight manifests and KSC shuttle
status reports For Usenet users much of this material appears in
the group scispaceshuttle
NASA UPDATES
Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov posts frequent updates from
JPL Ames and other centers on the Ulysses Gailileo Pioneer
Magellan Landsat and other missions
ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
TS Kelso tkelsoblackbirdafitafmil posts orbital elements from
NASA Prediction Bulletins
Mike Rose mrosestsciedu posts orbital elements for the Hubble
Space Telescope to sciastro
Jost Jahn jjahnabbshansede posts ephemerides for asteroids
comets conjunctions and encounters to sciastro
SATELLITE LAUNCHES
Richard Langley langunbca posts SPACEWARN Bulletin which
describes recent launchorbital decay information and satellites
which are useful for scientific activities Recent bulletins are
available by anonymous FTP from nssdcagsfcnasagov in
ANON_DIR[000000ACTIVESPX]
SHUTTLE MANIFEST
Ken Hollis gandalfproelectricctscom posts a compressed version
of the Space Shuttle launch manifest to scispaceshuttle This
includes dates times payloads and information on how to see
launches and landings
SOLAR ACTIVITY
Cary Oler olerhgulethca posts Solar Terrestrial reports
describing solar activity and its effect on the Earth to
scispace The report is issued in part from data released by the
Space Enviroment Services Center Boulder Colorado The intro
document needed to understand these reports is available by
anonymous FTP from solarstanfordedu 361004 in
pubunderstanding_solar_terrestrial_reports nicfunetfi
1282146100 also has this document in
pubmiscrecradioshortwavesolarreports and is an archive site
for the reports please note this site is in Europe and the
connection to the US is only 56KB A new primary archive site
xiulethca 14266329 has recently been established and will be
actively supported
SOVIET SPACE ACTIVITIES
Glenn Chapman glennccssfuca posts summaries of Soviet space
activities
SPACE ACTIVIST NEWSLETTER
Allen Sherzer awsitiorg posts a newsletter One Small Step for
a Space Activist to talkpoliticsspace It describes current
legislative activity affecting NASA and commercial space activities
SPACE EVENTS CALENDAR
Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov posts a calendar including
anniversaries conferences launch dates meteor showers and
eclipses and other spacerelated events
SPACE NEWS
John Magliacane kd2bdka2qhdUUCP posts SpaceNews covering
AMSATs NOAA and other weather satellites and other ham
information to recradioamateurmisc and scispace
SPACE REPORT
Jonathan McDowell mcdowellcfaharvardedu posts Jonathans Space
Report covering launches landings reentries status reports
satellite activities etc
TOWARD 2001
Bev Freed freednssfidonetorg posts Toward 2001 a weekly
global news summary reprinted from _Space Calendar_ magazine
WARNING ABOUT NONPUBLIC NETWORKS
Included at the suggestion of Eugene Miya who wrote the item
NASA has an internal system of unclassified electronic mail and bulletin
boards This system is not open for public use Specifically NASA
personnel and procurement operations are regarded with some sensitivity
Contractors must renegotiate their contracts The Fair and Open
Procurement Act does not look kindly to those having inside information
Contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can
expect severe penalities Unauthorized access attempts may subject you
to a fine andor imprisonment in accordance with Title 18 USC Section
1030 If in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact
NASA personnel
Claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste None
have ever been substantiated to any significant degree Readers
detecting Fraud Waste Abuse or Mismanagement should contact the NASA
Inspector General 24hours at 8004249183 can be anonymous or write
NASA
Inspector General
PO Box 23089
Lenfant Plaza Station
Washington DC 20024
NEXT FAQ 315 Online and some offline sources of images data etc
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 19
nancyo@fraser.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor) writes:
>timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes:
>>Rule #4: Don't mix apples with oranges. How can you say that the
>>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin? Khan conquered people
>>unsympathetic to his cause. That was atrocious. But Stalin killed millions of
>>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! How can
>>anyone be worse than that?
>You're right. And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian.
Yup. I can hear the _millions_ cheering for DK right now! Josef Stalin eat
your heart out! :)
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 19
nancyofrasersfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor writes
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
Rule 4 Dont mix apples with oranges How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause That was atrocious But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state How can
anyone be worse than that
Youre right And David Koresh claimed to be a Christian
Yup I can hear the _millions_ cheering for DK right now Josef Stalin eat
your heart out
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: What counntries do space surveillance?
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 35
The European Space Agency has involvement with remote earth
observation, and I presume this includes surveillance (optical etc.).
So it's not just the US/USSR(ex) who are in the game.
But what *is* the game? What can be done with space observation?
The military functions of missile spotting, troop spotting etc. are well
documented, but what about anything else?
The biggest eg I can think of is to get a metal sensing sat over a
paying country and scan their territory for precious metals.
More importantly, if radar can spot water vapour (clouds), presumably
a radar based sat will be capable of spotting rivers,open water and
*underground water* from space. This would be a positive life saver
for African or other drought affected countries. Implementing a
clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such
countries and should cut down mortalities considerably.
So how about it? Is there a charity or government agency that would
pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits
mapped?
Or is this still sci-fi?
Mail replies would be great.
Thought for the day: Thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick
it in the ocean!
--
****************************************************************************
Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"
after prepro From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re What counntries do space surveillance
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 35
The European Space Agency has involvement with remote earth
observation and I presume this includes surveillance optical etc
So its not just the USUSSRex who are in the game
But what is the game What can be done with space observation
The military functions of missile spotting troop spotting etc are well
documented but what about anything else
The biggest eg I can think of is to get a metal sensing sat over a
paying country and scan their territory for precious metals
More importantly if radar can spot water vapour clouds presumably
a radar based sat will be capable of spotting riversopen water and
underground water from space This would be a positive life saver
for African or other drought affected countries Implementing a
clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such
countries and should cut down mortalities considerably
So how about it Is there a charity or government agency that would
pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits
mapped
Or is this still scifi
Mail replies would be great
Thought for the day Thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick
it in the ocean
Marvin Batty djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
dace@shrike.und.ac.za (Roy Dace) writes:
>Keith Allan Schneider (keith@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>Some soldiers are dependent on religion, for a number of purposes.
>And some are no doubt dependent on cocaine, yet I don't see the military paying
>for coca fields.
While religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation, what are
the benefits of cocaine?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
daceshrikeundacza Roy Dace writes
Keith Allan Schneider keithccocaltechedu wrote
Some soldiers are dependent on religion for a number of purposes
And some are no doubt dependent on cocaine yet I dont see the military paying
for coca fields
While religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation what are
the benefits of cocaine
keith
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Islamic marriage?
In-Reply-To: <C51CJp.1LF8@austin.ibm.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 44
>DATE: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 00:11:49 GMT
>FROM: F. Karner <karner@austin.ibm.com>
>
>In article <1993Apr2.103237.4627@Cadence.COM>, mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan) writes:
>> In article <C4qAv2.24wG@austin.ibm.com> karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
>> >
>> >Okay. So you want me to name names? There are obviously no official
>> >records of these pseudo-marriages because they are performed for
>> >convenience. What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
>> >in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of.
>> >The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
>> >religious "marriage" contract in order to have sex. Nobody complains,
>> >nobody cares, nobody needs to know.
>> >
>> >Perhaps you should alert your imam. It could be that this practice is
>> >far more widespread than you may think. Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
>> >to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists!
>> >--
>> >
>>
>> Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display, Muslims
>> are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages, got that? There is
>> no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts
>> straight buddy. Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
>> were lying. It is not a widespread as you may think (fantasise) in
>> fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
>> Muslims.
Did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from The Indonesian
Handbook and Fred Rice's comments about temporary marriages? If so,
I will be glad to repost them. Will you accept that it just may be
a practice among some Muslims, if I do? Or will you continue to claim
that we are all lying and that it is "not practised at all amongst Muslims".
I don't think F. Karner has to tell everyone anything. Least of all that
he is lying.
Since you obviously know nothing about this practice, there is very little
you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying.
Perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing. Learn more about Islam.
Learn more about Muslims. Open your eyes. Maybe you will also see some
of the things the atheists see.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re Islamic marriage
InReplyTo
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 44
DATE Tue 6 Apr 1993 001149 GMT
FROM F Karner
In article 1993Apr21032374627CadenceCOM masCadenceCOM Masud Khan writes
In article karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes
Okay So you want me to name names There are obviously no official
records of these pseudomarriages because they are performed for
convenience What happens typically is that the woman is willing to move
in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of
The man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary
religious marriage contract in order to have sex Nobody complains
nobody cares nobody needs to know
Perhaps you should alert your imam It could be that this practice is
far more widespread than you may think Or maybe it takes 4 muslim men
to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists
Again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display Muslims
are NOT allowed to enter temporary marriages got that There is
no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts
straight buddy Give me references for it or just tell everyone you
were lying It is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in
fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst
Muslims
Did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from The Indonesian
Handbook and Fred Rices comments about temporary marriages If so
I will be glad to repost them Will you accept that it just may be
a practice among some Muslims if I do Or will you continue to claim
that we are all lying and that it is not practised at all amongst Muslims
I dont think F Karner has to tell everyone anything Least of all that
he is lying
Since you obviously know nothing about this practice there is very little
you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying
Perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing Learn more about Islam
Learn more about Muslims Open your eyes Maybe you will also see some
of the things the atheists see
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: na
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 20
In article <C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu
(Bill Conner) wrote:
> As for your question of moral free-agency, given the Christian
> position above, the freedom we have is to acknowledge God. The
> morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that
> freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
> ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
> in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only
> that he prefers not to accept it, it says nothing about the evidence
> itself.
I agree, I had a hard feeling not believing my grand-grand mother
who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings.
I preferred not to accept it, even if her statement provided
the truth itself. Life is hard.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution na
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 20
In article bilokcforumosrheedu
Bill Conner wrote
As for your question of moral freeagency given the Christian
position above the freedom we have is to acknowledge God The
morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that
freedom You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
in both cases That an atheist cant accept the evidence means only
that he prefers not to accept it it says nothing about the evidence
itself
I agree I had a hard feeling not believing my grandgrand mother
who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings
I preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided
the truth itself Life is hard
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov (James Felder)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines: 100
Distribution: world
Reply-To: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper3.lerc.nasa.gov
In article 734849678@saturn.wwc.edu, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
-> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
->makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
->lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
->writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
->in the process he became a Christian himself.
Sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy. Just what organization did he
belong to? Does it have a name?
-> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
->modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
Logic alert - artificial trifercation. The are many other possible explainations. Could have been
that he never existed. There have been some good points made in this group that is not
impossible that JC is an amalgam of a number of different myths, Mithra comes to mind.
-> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
->die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
->gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
->someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
->heal people.
Logic alert - argument from incredulity. Just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn't
mean that it isn't true. Liars can be very pursuasive, just look at Koresh that you yourself site.
He has followers that don't think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die.
By not giving up after getting shot himself, Koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what
he believes. As far as healing goes. If I rememer right the healing that was attributed is not
consistent between the different gospels. In one of them the healing that is done is not any more
that faith healers can pull off today. Seems to me that the early gospels weren't that compeling,
so the stories got bigger to appeal better.
-> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
->to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
->anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
->this right away.
-> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
->real thing.
Or might not have existed, or any number of things. That is the logical pitfall that those who
use flawed logic like this fall into. There are bifurcations (or tri, quad, etc) that are valid, because
in the proceeding steps, the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are
possible. Once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are, then arguments among
the alternatives can be presentent, and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding
all other possible alternatives.
However, if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive, then any conclusions bases on the
incomplete set are invalid, even if the true choice is one of the original choices. I have given at
least one valid alternative, so the conclusion that JC is the real McCoy just because he isn't one of
the other two alternative is no longer valid.
-> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
->the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
->and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
->write I will use it.
JC was a rabbi. He knew what those prophecies were. It wouldn't be any great shakes to make
sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy. What would be compeling is if there
were a set of clear and explicit prophecies AND JC had absolutely NO knowledge of then, yet
fullfilled them anyway.
-> I don't think most people understand what a Christian is. It
->is certainly not what I see a lot in churches. Rather I think it
->should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's
->sake. He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
->same. Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives
->over to him. That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a
->real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. But
->just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes
->time. We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.
->It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in
->a while. We box everything into time units. Such as work at this
->time, sports, Tv, social life. God is above these boxes and should be
->carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
->ourselves.
Here I agree with you. Anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says
seriously, and what it says is that it must be a total way of life. I have very little respect for
Xians that don't. If the myth is true, then it is true in its entirity. The picking and choosing
that I see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Jim
---
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James L. Felder |
Sverdrup Technology,Inc. | phone: 216-891-4019
NASA Lewis Research Center |
Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov
"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From spbachlercnasagov James Felder
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines 100
Distribution world
ReplyTo spbachlercnasagov
NNTPPostingHost hopper3lercnasagov
In article 734849678saturnwwcedu bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
Sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy Just what organization did he
belong to Does it have a name
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Logic alert artificial trifercation The are many other possible explainations Could have been
that he never existed There have been some good points made in this group that is not
impossible that JC is an amalgam of a number of different myths Mithra comes to mind
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
Logic alert argument from incredulity Just because it is hard for you to believe this doesnt
mean that it isnt true Liars can be very pursuasive just look at Koresh that you yourself site
He has followers that dont think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die
By not giving up after getting shot himself Koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what
he believes As far as healing goes If I rememer right the healing that was attributed is not
consistent between the different gospels In one of them the healing that is done is not any more
that faith healers can pull off today Seems to me that the early gospels werent that compeling
so the stories got bigger to appeal better
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Or might not have existed or any number of things That is the logical pitfall that those who
use flawed logic like this fall into There are bifurcations or tri quad etc that are valid because
in the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are
possible Once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are then arguments among
the alternatives can be presentent and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding
all other possible alternatives
However if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive then any conclusions bases on the
incomplete set are invalid even if the true choice is one of the original choices I have given at
least one valid alternative so the conclusion that JC is the real McCoy just because he isnt one of
the other two alternative is no longer valid
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
JC was a rabbi He knew what those prophecies were It wouldnt be any great shakes to make
sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy What would be compeling is if there
were a set of clear and explicit prophecies AND JC had absolutely NO knowledge of then yet
fullfilled them anyway
I dont think most people understand what a Christian is It
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches Rather I think it
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods
sake He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
same Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives
over to him Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at But
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes
time We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in
a while We box everything into time units Such as work at this
time sports Tv social life God is above these boxes and should be
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
ourselves
Here I agree with you Anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says
seriously and what it says is that it must be a total way of life I have very little respect for
Xians that dont If the myth is true then it is true in its entirity The picking and choosing
that I see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth
Jim
James L Felder
Sverdrup TechnologyInc phone 2168914019
NASA Lewis Research Center
Cleveland Ohio 44135 email jfelderlercnasagov
Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
preprocess doc From: tholen@newton.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Lines: 23
Alan Carter writes:
>> 3. On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
> This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
> someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
The name is rather descriptive. It's a command to the spacecraft that tells
it "If you don't hear from Earth after 264 hours, assume something is wrong
with your (the spacecraft) attitude, and go into a preprogrammed search mode
in an attempt to reacquire the signal from Earth."
The spacecraft and Earth are not in constant communication with each other.
Earth monitors the telemetry from the spacecraft, and if everything is fine,
there's no reason to send it any new information. But from the spacecraft's
point of view, no information from Earth could mean either everything is
fine, or that the spacecraft has lost signal acquisition. Just how long
should the spacecraft wait before it decides that something is wrong and
begins to take corrective action? That "how long" is the command loss timer.
During relatively inactive cruise phases, the command loss timer can be set
to rather long values. In this case, Earth is telling Galileo "expect to
hear back from us sometime within the next 264 hours".
after prepro From tholennewtonifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Organization Institute for Astronomy Hawaii
Lines 23
Alan Carter writes
3 On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
The name is rather descriptive Its a command to the spacecraft that tells
it If you dont hear from Earth after 264 hours assume something is wrong
with your the spacecraft attitude and go into a preprogrammed search mode
in an attempt to reacquire the signal from Earth
The spacecraft and Earth are not in constant communication with each other
Earth monitors the telemetry from the spacecraft and if everything is fine
theres no reason to send it any new information But from the spacecrafts
point of view no information from Earth could mean either everything is
fine or that the spacecraft has lost signal acquisition Just how long
should the spacecraft wait before it decides that something is wrong and
begins to take corrective action That how long is the command loss timer
During relatively inactive cruise phases the command loss timer can be set
to rather long values In this case Earth is telling Galileo expect to
hear back from us sometime within the next 264 hours
preprocess doc From: ldaddari@polaris.cv.nrao.edu (Larry D'Addario)
Subject: Re: Russian Email Contacts.
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of Sat, 17 Apr 1993 12: 52:09 GMT
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Lines: 32
It is usually possible to reach people at IKI (Institute for Space
Research) in Moscow by writing to
IKIMAIL@esoc1.bitnet
This is a machine at ESA in Darmstadt, Germany; IKI has a dedicated
phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to
retrieve mail.
In addition, there are several user accounts belonging to Russian
scientific institutions on
<user>@sovam.com
which is a commercial enterprise based in San Francisco that provides
email services to the former USSR. For example, fian@sovam.com is the
"PHysics Institute of the Academy of Sciences" (initials transliterated
from Russian, of course). These connections cost the Russians real
dollars, even for *received* messages, so please don't send anything
voluminous or frivilous.
=====================================================================
Larry R. D'Addario
National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Addresses (INTERNET) LDADDARI@NRAO.EDU
(FAX) +1/804/296-0324 Charlottesville
+1/304/456-2200 Green Bank
(MAIL) 2015 Ivy Road, Charlottesville, VA 22903, USA
(PHONE) +1/804/296-0245 office, 804/973-4983 home CHO
+1/304/456-2226 off., -2106 lab, -2256 apt. GB
=====================================================================
after prepro From ldaddaripolariscvnraoedu Larry DAddario
Subject Re Russian Email Contacts
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of Sat 17 Apr 1993 12 5209 GMT
Organization National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Lines 32
It is usually possible to reach people at IKI Institute for Space
Research in Moscow by writing to
IKIMAILesoc1bitnet
This is a machine at ESA in Darmstadt Germany IKI has a dedicated
phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to
retrieve mail
In addition there are several user accounts belonging to Russian
scientific institutions on
sovamcom
which is a commercial enterprise based in San Francisco that provides
email services to the former USSR For example fiansovamcom is the
PHysics Institute of the Academy of Sciences initials transliterated
from Russian of course These connections cost the Russians real
dollars even for received messages so please dont send anything
voluminous or frivilous
Larry R DAddario
National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Addresses INTERNET LDADDARINRAOEDU
FAX 18042960324 Charlottesville
13044562200 Green Bank
MAIL 2015 Ivy Road Charlottesville VA 22903 USA
PHONE 18042960245 office 8049734983 home CHO
13044562226 off 2106 lab 2256 apt GB
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 65
Jim Perry (perry@dsinc.com) wrote:
: }Xenophobia, both *de facto* and *de jure* as implemented
: }in legal systems, is widespread, while the Bible,
: }although not 100% egalitarian, specifically preaches
: }kindness to the stranger, and emphasizes in the Book
: }of Ruth, that a foreigner can join the nation and
: }give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation.
:
: Clearly better than the alternative, but as an American what strikes
: me as strange about this story is that it should have even been
: considered an issue.
Jim,
There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature - exclusively. There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
determnined.
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident. For an atheist, no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
an event can have value.
The products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment,
from teaching, training, observation and experience and are only
significant to the individual mind wherein they reside. These mental
processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical
activity and nothing more; content is of no consequence. The human
mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a
hill.
How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values.
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
- that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any "absolute" sense.
That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.
I didn't make these rules, it's inherent in naturalistic atheism and
to be consistent, you have to accept the non-significance of any human
thought, even your own. All of this being so, you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 65
Jim Perry perrydsinccom wrote
Xenophobia both de facto and de jure as implemented
in legal systems is widespread while the Bible
although not 100 egalitarian specifically preaches
kindness to the stranger and emphasizes in the Book
of Ruth that a foreigner can join the nation and
give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation
Clearly better than the alternative but as an American what strikes
me as strange about this story is that it should have even been
considered an issue
Jim
There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature exclusively There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
determnined
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence its just a happy accident For an atheist no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about
an event can have value
The products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment
from teaching training observation and experience and are only
significant to the individual mind wherein they reside These mental
processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical
activity and nothing more content is of no consequence The human
mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a
hill
How then can an atheist judge value What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned It
seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what
in nature can serve that purpose What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what
difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or
otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value The only
way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that heshe just doesnt like it
thats it Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any absolute sense
That you dont like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or Gods commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a preexisting thoughtset to form that reaction That your
objections seem well founded is due to the way youve been
conditioned there is no truth content The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality
I didnt make these rules its inherent in naturalistic atheism and
to be consistent you have to accept the nonsignificance of any human
thought even your own All of this being so you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil
etc and cannot participate Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever
Bill
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <C51DAq.2Fqs@austin.ibm.com>, karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner) writes:
>
> So, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic?
When someone says:
"So after 1000 years of sightseeing and roaming around its
ok to come back, kill Palastinians, and get their land back,
right?"
Yes, that's casual antisemitism. I can think of plenty of ways
to criticize Israeli policy without insulting Jews or Jewish history.
Can't you?
jon
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 16
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article karneraustinibmcom F Karner writes
So you consider the german posters remark antisemitic
When someone says
So after 1000 years of sightseeing and roaming around its
ok to come back kill Palastinians and get their land back
right
Yes thats casual antisemitism I can think of plenty of ways
to criticize Israeli policy without insulting Jews or Jewish history
Cant you
jon
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: rfox@charlie.usd.edu (Rich Fox, Univ of South Dakota)
Reply-To: rfox@charlie.usd.edu
Organization: The University of South Dakota Computer Science Dept.
Nntp-Posting-Host: charlie
Lines: 26
In article <1pik3i$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <C4u51L.8Bv@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>|>
>|>
>|> Why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so
>|> incidental, if the question of God is trivial? Fess up, it matters to
>|> you a great deal.
>
>Ask yourself two questions.
>
> 1. How important is Mithras in your life today?
>
> 2. How important would Mithras become if there was a
> well funded group of fanatics trying to get the
> schools system to teach your children that Mithras
> was the one true God?
>
>jon.
Right on, Jon! Who cares who or whose, as long as it works for the individual.
But don't try to impose those beliefs on us or our children. I would add the
well-funded group tries also to purge science, to deny children access to great
wonders and skills. And how about the kids born to creationists? What a
burden with which to begin adult life. It must be a cruel awakening for those
who finally see the light, provided it is possible to escape from the depths of
this type of ignorance.
after prepro Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From rfoxcharlieusdedu Rich Fox Univ of South Dakota
ReplyTo rfoxcharlieusdedu
Organization The University of South Dakota Computer Science Dept
NntpPostingHost charlie
Lines 26
In article 1pik3i1l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
Why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so
incidental if the question of God is trivial Fess up it matters to
you a great deal
Ask yourself two questions
1 How important is Mithras in your life today
2 How important would Mithras become if there was a
well funded group of fanatics trying to get the
schools system to teach your children that Mithras
was the one true God
jon
Right on Jon Who cares who or whose as long as it works for the individual
But dont try to impose those beliefs on us or our children I would add the
wellfunded group tries also to purge science to deny children access to great
wonders and skills And how about the kids born to creationists What a
burden with which to begin adult life It must be a cruel awakening for those
who finally see the light provided it is possible to escape from the depths of
this type of ignorance
preprocess doc From: dgempey@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (David Gordon Empey)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu
In <1993Apr23.165459.3323@coe.montana.edu> uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote) writes:
>In sci.astro, dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
>[ a nearly perfect parody -- needed more random CAPS]
>Thanks for the chuckle. (I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
>in Somalia!)
>To those who've taken this seriously, READ THE NAME! (aloud)
Well, I thought it must have been a joke, but I don't get the
joke in the name. Read it aloud? David MACaloon. David MacALLoon.
David macalOON. I don't geddit.
-Dave Empey (speaking for himself)
>--
>Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Enjoy the buffet!
after prepro From dgempeyucscbUCSCEDU David Gordon Empey
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization University of California Santa Cruz
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost ucscbucscedu
In 1993Apr231654593323coemontanaedu uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote writes
In sciastro dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
[ a nearly perfect parody needed more random CAPS]
Thanks for the chuckle I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia
To those whove taken this seriously READ THE NAME aloud
Well I thought it must have been a joke but I dont get the
joke in the name Read it aloud David MACaloon David MacALLoon
David macalOON I dont geddit
Dave Empey speaking for himself
Thank you thank you Ill be here all week Enjoy the buffet
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
<1993Apr16.015931.12153@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr16.015931.12153@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes:
> Welcome. I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
> are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
> Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster." So the next time
> you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller. Thanks again.
>
> Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland
Of course, the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago (you know... the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed?). Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here!
Nanci
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re New Member
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 16
1993Apr1601593112153mnemosynecsduedu
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr1601593112153mnemosynecsduedu
jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes
Welcome I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster So the next time
you post an article sign with your nickname like so
Dave Buckminster Fuller Thanks again
Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland
Of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the
GIPU almost 2000 years ago you know the 9 of them that were written on
the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed Since I am
a prophet of the GIPU I decree that you should post the whole list of
nicknames for the frequent posters here
Nanci
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>The motto originated in the Star-Spangled Banner. Tell me that this has
>>something to do with atheists.
>The motto _on_coins_ originated as a McCarthyite smear which equated atheism
>with Communism and called both unamerican.
No it didn't. The motto has been on various coins since the Civil War.
It was just required to be on *all* currency in the 50's.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
The motto originated in the StarSpangled Banner Tell me that this has
something to do with atheists
The motto _on_coins_ originated as a McCarthyite smear which equated atheism
with Communism and called both unamerican
No it didnt The motto has been on various coins since the Civil War
It was just required to be on all currency in the 50s
keith
preprocess doc From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Advertising (2 of 2)
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 82
Two developments have brought these type of activities back to
the forefront in 1993. First, in February, the Russians deployed a
20-m reflector from a Progress vehicle after it had departed from
the Mir Space Station. While this "Banner" reflector was blank,
NPO Energia was very active in reporting that future Banner
reflectors will be available to advertisers, who could use a space-
based video of their logo or ad printed on the Banner in a TV
commercial, as filmed from the Mir.
The second development, has been that Space Marketing Inc, the
same company responsible for merchandising space on the Conestoga
booster and COMET spacecraft, is now pushing the "Environmental
Billboard". As laid out by SMI Chief Engineer Dr Ron Humble of the
University of Colorado Space Laboratory and Preston Carter of the
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the "Environmental
Billboard" is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters. Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area,
deployed by the inflatable 'frame'.
To help sell the concept, the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry "ozone reading
sensors" to "continuously monitor the condition of the Earth's
delicate protective ozone layer," according to Mike Lawson, head of
SMI. Furthermore, the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to re-enter the Earth's
atmosphere. According to IMI, "as the biodegradable material burns,
it will release ozone-building components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer." The remaining spacecraft will monitor
the atmosphere for another year before it, too, re-enters and burns
up and "adds to the ozone supply."
This would not be a cheap advertisement, costing at least several
millions of dollars (exact costs were not available). But SMI
estimates that market exposure would be 3-5X that of the people who
watched the SuperBowl, where a 30-second advertising 'unit' cost
$600,000. Since SMI is located in Atlanta, Georgia, it is being
promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996
Summer Olympics in Atlanta.
But back to Brian's questions:
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip? How serious is this project? Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
See above. As for serious -- if they can get $15-20 M or so (my
estimate of $5-10 for development costs and a flight unit, plus
$10-15 M for a launch), then it's probably real. They are claiming to
tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for
optimum advertising impact so they probably can't piggy back upon
someone else's planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated
launch. That's a $10-15 M cost they need to raise, right there.
And there will probably be some legal challenges to this as
well. Note there is one potential legal challenge to SMI on the use
of launch vehicle advertising already. While I don't think the
legal challenges would win out (and yes, I am an amateur astronomer,
and no, I don't really like the idea of this additional light
pollution, but I know of no prohibition of it...), the legal
challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive
aspects of the advertising. I can imagine several ways to make the
advertisers look like louts for doing this -- which would change
positive market exposure to negative market exposure, and negate the
space advertising advantage. (Would you spend $15 M to look like an
idiot?)
(And light pollution might not be too bad -- if it's in a low
enough orbit, and it relies upon reflected light only, it would
only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before
dawn. For maximum market exposure, you want to have it visible just
after dusk --minimizing impact on astronomy, since that's the time
of worse seeing due to day/night thermal turbulence. It might still
be a problem, but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this...)
As for having real funding -- none that I can identify. There
were about 60 expressions of interest made on the Conestoga
advertising opportunity, but that included curious folks and was for
only a $500,000 commitment. I haven't heard of any serious funding
for this, but I'm sure they are shopping the venture around looking
for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more. But I
am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time.
And if anybody wants to cross-post this to sci.astro, please be
my guest. I don't have posting privileges to that area (or at least
I don't THINK I do...).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Advertising 2 of 2
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 82
Two developments have brought these type of activities back to
the forefront in 1993 First in February the Russians deployed a
20m reflector from a Progress vehicle after it had departed from
the Mir Space Station While this Banner reflector was blank
NPO Energia was very active in reporting that future Banner
reflectors will be available to advertisers who could use a space
based video of their logo or ad printed on the Banner in a TV
commercial as filmed from the Mir
The second development has been that Space Marketing Inc the
same company responsible for merchandising space on the Conestoga
booster and COMET spacecraft is now pushing the Environmental
Billboard As laid out by SMI Chief Engineer Dr Ron Humble of the
University of Colorado Space Laboratory and Preston Carter of the
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory the Environmental
Billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to
804x1609 meters Advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area
deployed by the inflatable frame
To help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for
maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading
sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the Earths
delicate protective ozone layer according to Mike Lawson head of
SMI Furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum
exposure of 30 days it will be released to reenter the Earths
atmosphere According to IMI as the biodegradable material burns
it will release ozonebuilding components that will literally
replenish the ozone layer The remaining spacecraft will monitor
the atmosphere for another year before it too reenters and burns
up and adds to the ozone supply
This would not be a cheap advertisement costing at least several
millions of dollars exact costs were not available But SMI
estimates that market exposure would be 35X that of the people who
watched the SuperBowl where a 30second advertising unit cost
600000 Since SMI is located in Atlanta Georgia it is being
promoted as being available in time for the opening of the 1996
Summer Olympics in Atlanta
But back to Brians questions
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip How serious is this project Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
See above As for serious if they can get 1520 M or so my
estimate of 510 for development costs and a flight unit plus
1015 M for a launch then its probably real They are claiming to
tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for
optimum advertising impact so they probably cant piggy back upon
someone elses planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated
launch Thats a 1015 M cost they need to raise right there
And there will probably be some legal challenges to this as
well Note there is one potential legal challenge to SMI on the use
of launch vehicle advertising already While I dont think the
legal challenges would win out and yes I am an amateur astronomer
and no I dont really like the idea of this additional light
pollution but I know of no prohibition of it the legal
challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive
aspects of the advertising I can imagine several ways to make the
advertisers look like louts for doing this which would change
positive market exposure to negative market exposure and negate the
space advertising advantage Would you spend 15 M to look like an
idiot
And light pollution might not be too bad if its in a low
enough orbit and it relies upon reflected light only it would
only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before
dawn For maximum market exposure you want to have it visible just
after dusk minimizing impact on astronomy since thats the time
of worse seeing due to daynight thermal turbulence It might still
be a problem but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this
As for having real funding none that I can identify There
were about 60 expressions of interest made on the Conestoga
advertising opportunity but that included curious folks and was for
only a 500000 commitment I havent heard of any serious funding
for this but Im sure they are shopping the venture around looking
for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more But I
am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time
And if anybody wants to crosspost this to sciastro please be
my guest I dont have posting privileges to that area or at least
I dont THINK I do
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Nntp-Posting-Host: sw2001
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.
X-Alt.reply-Address: n.g.u.fredriksson@swe2001.wins.icl.co.uk
Lines: 14
Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
> I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?
I've seen a film of it, my memory may be faulty, but as I
remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long, with a
thick baseplate 30-40 cm in diameter. I think the narrative said
it was propelled by dynamite sticks. There were four detonations
within about 2 s, the second coming after about 2 m of flight in.
Max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m, but that is hard
to judge.
--
Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se
after prepro From urficlse Urban F
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
NntpPostingHost sw2001
Organization None On USENET I speak only for myself
XAltreplyAddress ngufredrikssonswe2001winsiclcouk
Lines 14
Leigh Palmer writes
I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it
Ive seen a film of it my memory may be faulty but as I
remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long with a
thick baseplate 3040 cm in diameter I think the narrative said
it was propelled by dynamite sticks There were four detonations
within about 2 s the second coming after about 2 m of flight in
Max altitude seemed to be on the order of 50 m but that is hard
to judge
Urban Fredriksson urficlse
preprocess doc Subject: So what is Maddi?
From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 12
As I was created in the image of Gaea, therefore I must
be the pinnacle of creation, She which Creates, She which
Births, She which Continues.
Or, to cut all the religious crap, I'm a woman, thanks.
And it's sexism that started me on the road to atheism.
--
Maddi Hausmann madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 408/428-3553
Kids, please don't try this at home. Remember, I post professionally.
after prepro Subject So what is Maddi
From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 12
As I was created in the image of Gaea therefore I must
be the pinnacle of creation She which Creates She which
Births She which Continues
Or to cut all the religious crap Im a woman thanks
And its sexism that started me on the road to atheism
Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 4084283553
Kids please dont try this at home Remember I post professionally
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Lines: 20
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
I have a nice quote that I like (or as close as I can remember it).
If I say something that you think is crazy, ask me what I mean before you think
its crazy..
So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright, and quite a few others.. Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless..
Sorry my two cents worth. Or is it two rubles worth?
The basic quote idea is from H. Beam Pipers book "Space Vikings". Its a good
book on how civilization can fall, and how it can be raised to new heights.
Unfortunately H. Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published, and have his ideas see light.. Such a waste.
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Crazy or just Imaginitive
Lines 20
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
I have a nice quote that I like or as close as I can remember it
If I say something that you think is crazy ask me what I mean before you think
its crazy
So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright and quite a few others Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless
Sorry my two cents worth Or is it two rubles worth
The basic quote idea is from H Beam Pipers book Space Vikings Its a good
book on how civilization can fall and how it can be raised to new heights
Unfortunately H Beam Piper killed him self just weeks short of having his
first book published and have his ideas see light Such a waste
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 102
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr23.184732.1105@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes...
{Description of "External Tank" option for SSF redesign deleted}
>Mark proposed this design at Joe Shea's committee in Crystal City,
>and he reports that he was warmly received. However, the rumors
>I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
>seems more likely.
Yo Ken, let's keep on-top of things! Both the "External Tank" and
"Wingless Orbiter" options have been deleted from the SSF redesign
options list. Today's (4/23) edition of the New York Times reports
that O'Connor told the panel that some redesign proposals have
been dropped, such as using the "giant external fuel tanks used
in launching space shuttles," and building a "station around
an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed."
Currently, there are three options being considered, as presented
to the advisory panel meeting yesterday (and as reported in
today's Times).
Option "A" - Low Cost Modular Approach
This option is being studied by a team from MSFC. {As an aside,
there are SSF redesign teams at MSFC, JSC, and LaRC supporting
the SRT (Station Redesign Team) in Crystal City. Both LeRC and
Reston folks are also on-site at these locations, helping the respective
teams with their redesign activities.} Key features of this
option are:
- Uses "Bus-1", a modular bus developed by Lockheed that's
qualified for STS and ELV's. The bus provides propulsion, GN&C
Communications, & Data Management. Lockheed developed this
for the Air Force.
- A "Power Station Capability" is obtained in 3 Shuttle Flights.
SSF Solar arrays are used to provide 20 kW of power. The vehicle
flies in an "arrow mode" to optimize the microgravity environment.
Shuttle/Spacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power
source for 30 day missions.
- Human tended capability (as opposed to the old SSF sexist term
of man-tended capability) is achieved by the addition of the
US Common module. This is a modified version of the existing
SSF Lab module (docking ports are added for the International
Partners' labs, taking the place of the nodes on SSF). The
Shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions.
The Orbiter would provide crew habitability & EVA capability.
- International Human Tended. Add the NASDA & ESA modules, and
add another 20 kW of power
- Permanent Human Presence Capability. Add a 3rd power module,
the U.S. habitation module, and an ACRV (Assured Crew Return
Vehicle).
Option "B" - Space Station Freedom Derived
The Option "B" team is based at LaRC, and is lead by Mike Griffin.
This option looks alot like the existing SSF design, which we
have all come to know and love :)
This option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for
use on all SSF assembly flights (so does option "A"). Also, the
number of flights is computed for a 51.6 inclination orbit,
for both options "A" and "B".
The build-up occurs in six phases:
- Initial Research Capability reached after 3 flights. Power
is transferred from the vehicle to the Orbiter/Spacelab, when
it visits.
- Man-Tended Capability (Griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist
language) is achieved after 8 flights. The U.S. Lab is
deployed, and 1 solar power module provides 20 kW of power.
- Permanent Human Presence Capability occurs after 10 flights, by
keeping one Orbiter on-orbit to use as an ACRV (so sometimes
there would be two Orbiters on-orbit - the ACRV, and the
second one that comes up for Logistics & Re-supply).
- A "Two Fault Tolerance Capability" is achieved after 14 flights,
with the addition of a 2nd power module, another thermal
control system radiator, and more propulsion modules.
- After 20 flights, the Internationals are on-board. More power,
the Habitation module, and an ACRV are added to finish the
assembly in 24 flights.
Most of the systems currently on SSF are used as-is in this option,
with the exception of the data management system, which has major
changes.
Option C - Single Core Launch Station.
This is the JSC lead option. Basically, you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder that's 92 ft long, slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside, put a nose cone on the top, attached it to a
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors, and launch the can. Some key features are:
- Complete end-to-end ground integration and checkout
- 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
- body mounted radiators (which adds protection against
micrometeroid & orbital debris)
- 2 centerline docking ports (one on each end)
- 7 berthing ports
- a single pressurized volume, approximately 26,000 cubic feet
(twice the volume of skylab).
- 7 floors, center passageway between floors
- 10 kW of housekeeping power
- graceful degradation with failures (8 power channels, 4 thermal
loops, dual environmental control & life support system)
- increased crew time for utilization
- 1 micro-g thru out the core module
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 102
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr231847321105aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
Description of External Tank option for SSF redesign deleted
Mark proposed this design at Joe Sheas committee in Crystal City
and he reports that he was warmly received However the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely
Yo Ken lets keep ontop of things Both the External Tank and
Wingless Orbiter options have been deleted from the SSF redesign
options list Todays 423 edition of the New York Times reports
that OConnor told the panel that some redesign proposals have
been dropped such as using the giant external fuel tanks used
in launching space shuttles and building a station around
an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed
Currently there are three options being considered as presented
to the advisory panel meeting yesterday and as reported in
todays Times
Option A Low Cost Modular Approach
This option is being studied by a team from MSFC As an aside
there are SSF redesign teams at MSFC JSC and LaRC supporting
the SRT Station Redesign Team in Crystal City Both LeRC and
Reston folks are also onsite at these locations helping the respective
teams with their redesign activities Key features of this
option are
Uses Bus1 a modular bus developed by Lockheed thats
qualified for STS and ELVs The bus provides propulsion GNC
Communications Data Management Lockheed developed this
for the Air Force
A Power Station Capability is obtained in 3 Shuttle Flights
SSF Solar arrays are used to provide 20 kW of power The vehicle
flies in an arrow mode to optimize the microgravity environment
ShuttleSpacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power
source for 30 day missions
Human tended capability as opposed to the old SSF sexist term
of mantended capability is achieved by the addition of the
US Common module This is a modified version of the existing
SSF Lab module docking ports are added for the International
Partners labs taking the place of the nodes on SSF The
Shuttle can be docked to the station for 60 day missions
The Orbiter would provide crew habitability EVA capability
International Human Tended Add the NASDA ESA modules and
add another 20 kW of power
Permanent Human Presence Capability Add a 3rd power module
the US habitation module and an ACRV Assured Crew Return
Vehicle
Option B Space Station Freedom Derived
The Option B team is based at LaRC and is lead by Mike Griffin
This option looks alot like the existing SSF design which we
have all come to know and love
This option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for
use on all SSF assembly flights so does option A Also the
number of flights is computed for a 516 inclination orbit
for both options A and B
The buildup occurs in six phases
Initial Research Capability reached after 3 flights Power
is transferred from the vehicle to the OrbiterSpacelab when
it visits
ManTended Capability Griffin has not yet adopted nonsexist
language is achieved after 8 flights The US Lab is
deployed and 1 solar power module provides 20 kW of power
Permanent Human Presence Capability occurs after 10 flights by
keeping one Orbiter onorbit to use as an ACRV so sometimes
there would be two Orbiters onorbit the ACRV and the
second one that comes up for Logistics Resupply
A Two Fault Tolerance Capability is achieved after 14 flights
with the addition of a 2nd power module another thermal
control system radiator and more propulsion modules
After 20 flights the Internationals are onboard More power
the Habitation module and an ACRV are added to finish the
assembly in 24 flights
Most of the systems currently on SSF are used asis in this option
with the exception of the data management system which has major
changes
Option C Single Core Launch Station
This is the JSC lead option Basically you take a 23 ft diameter
cylinder thats 92 ft long slap 3 Space Shuttle Main Engines on
the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a
regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket
motors and launch the can Some key features are
Complete endtoend ground integration and checkout
4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels
body mounted radiators which adds protection against
micrometeroid orbital debris
2 centerline docking ports one on each end
7 berthing ports
a single pressurized volume approximately 26000 cubic feet
twice the volume of skylab
7 floors center passageway between floors
10 kW of housekeeping power
graceful degradation with failures 8 power channels 4 thermal
loops dual environmental control life support system
increased crew time for utilization
1 microg thru out the core module
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr5.171143.828@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> In article <2942949719.2.p00261@psilink.com>, "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
|> >>DATE: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:02:22 -0500
|> >>FROM: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
|> >>
|> >>
|> >>> > 3. Can god uncreate itself?
|> >>>
|> >>> No. For if He did, He would violate His own nature which He cannot do.
|> >>> It is God's nature to Exist. He is, after all, the "I AM" which is
|> >>> a statement of His inherent Existence. He is existence itself.
|> >>> Existence cannot "not-exist".
|> >>
|> >>Then, as mentioned above, he must not be very omnipotent.
|> >>
|>
|> What do you mean by omnipotent here? Do you mean by "omnipotent"
|> that God should be able to do anything/everything? This creates
|> a self-contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
|> useless.
|>
|> To be descriptive, omnipotence must mean "being all-powerful" and
|> not "being able to do anything/everything".
|>
|> Let me illustrate by analogy.
|> Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth. Suppose
|> further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
|> nation or group of nations. The US has the power to go into any country
|> at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
|> US see fit. The US would be militarily "omnipotent".
Did you check with the Afghans before posting this? They
might disagree.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Omnipotence was Re Speculations
Organization sgi
Lines 35
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr5171143828batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 29429497192p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
DATE Fri 2 Apr 1993 230222 0500
FROM Nanci Ann Miller
3 Can god uncreate itself
No For if He did He would violate His own nature which He cannot do
It is Gods nature to Exist He is after all the I AM which is
a statement of His inherent Existence He is existence itself
Existence cannot notexist
Then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent
What do you mean by omnipotent here Do you mean by omnipotent
that God should be able to do anythingeverything This creates
a selfcontradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively
useless
To be descriptive omnipotence must mean being allpowerful and
not being able to do anythingeverything
Let me illustrate by analogy
Suppose the United States were the only nuclear power on earth Suppose
further that the US military could not effectively be countered by any
nation or group of nations The US has the power to go into any country
at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the
US see fit The US would be militarily omnipotent
Did you check with the Afghans before posting this They
might disagree
jon
preprocess doc From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 40
In article <1pqdor$9s2@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.071823.13253@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history, and
>Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany.
I think the problem here is that I pretty much ignored the part
about the Jews sightseeing for 2000 years, thinking instead that
the important part of what the original poster said was the bit
about killing Palestinians. In retrospect, I can see how the
sightseeing thing would be offensive to many. I originally saw
it just as poetic license, but it's understandable that others
might see it differently. I still think that Ken came on a bit
strong though. I also think that your advice to Masud Khan:
#Before you argue with someone like Mr Arromdee, it's a good idea to
#do a little homework, or at least think.
was unnecessary.
>That's right. There have been. There have also been people who
>were formally Nazis. But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
>without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
>street who behaved as though casual anti-semitism was perfectly
>acceptable.
>
>Now what exactly don't you understand about what I wrote, and why
>don't you see what it has to do with the matter at hand?
Throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit
assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual
anti-semitism. If I agreed with that, then maybe your speech
on why this is bad might have been relevant. But I think you're
reading a lot into one flip sentence. While probably not
true in this case, too often the charge of anti-semitism gets
thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the
state of Israel.
Anyway, I'd rather be somewhere else, so I'm outta this thread.
--
Doug Graham dgraham@bnr.ca My opinions are my own.
after prepro From dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 40
In article 1pqdor9s2fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1993Apr307182313253bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
The poster casually trashed two thousand years of Jewish history and
Ken replied that there had previously been people like him in Germany
I think the problem here is that I pretty much ignored the part
about the Jews sightseeing for 2000 years thinking instead that
the important part of what the original poster said was the bit
about killing Palestinians In retrospect I can see how the
sightseeing thing would be offensive to many I originally saw
it just as poetic license but its understandable that others
might see it differently I still think that Ken came on a bit
strong though I also think that your advice to Masud Khan
Before you argue with someone like Mr Arromdee its a good idea to
do a little homework or at least think
was unnecessary
Thats right There have been There have also been people who
were formally Nazis But the Nazi party would have gone nowhere
without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the
street who behaved as though casual antisemitism was perfectly
acceptable
Now what exactly dont you understand about what I wrote and why
dont you see what it has to do with the matter at hand
Throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit
assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual
antisemitism If I agreed with that then maybe your speech
on why this is bad might have been relevant But I think youre
reading a lot into one flip sentence While probably not
true in this case too often the charge of antisemitism gets
thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the
state of Israel
Anyway Id rather be somewhere else so Im outta this thread
Doug Graham dgrahambnrca My opinions are my own
preprocess doc From: dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein)
Subject: japanese moon landing?
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Lines: 17
Afraid I can't give any more info on this.. and hoping someone in greter
NETLAND has some details.
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.
the article was very vague and unclear. and, to make matters worse, I
didn't clip it.
does this jog anyone's memory?
thanks
dannyb@panix.com
after prepro From dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein
Subject japanese moon landing
Organization PANIX Public Access Unix NYC
Lines 17
Afraid I cant give any more info on this and hoping someone in greter
NETLAND has some details
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon
the article was very vague and unclear and to make matters worse I
didnt clip it
does this jog anyones memory
thanks
dannybpanixcom
preprocess doc From: jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew)
Subject: Re: the call to space (was Re: Clueless Szaboisms )
Keywords: trumpet calls, infrastructure, public perception
Organization: Statistics, Pure & Applied Mathematics, University of Adelaide
Lines: 32
In article <1pfj8k$6ab@access.digex.com> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Mar31.161814.11683@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>It isn't feasible for Japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they
>>would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power.
>Of course, Given they export 50 % of the GNP, What do they do.
Well they don't export anywhere near 50% of their GNP. Mexico's perhaps
but not their own. They actually export around the 9-10% mark. Similar
to most developed countries actually. Australia exports a larger share
of GNP as does the United States (14% I think off hand. Always likely to
be out by a factor of 12 or more though) This would be immediately obvious
if you thought about it.
>Anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will
>also hose their export routes.
It is their import routes that count. They can do without exports but
they couldn't live without imports for any longer than six months if that.
>Given they import everything, oil is just one more critical commodity.
Too true! But one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry.
Joseph Askew
--
Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades,
jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief.
Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere,
Actually, I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
after prepro From jaskewspammathsadelaideeduau Joseph Askew
Subject Re the call to space was Re Clueless Szaboisms
Keywords trumpet calls infrastructure public perception
Organization Statistics Pure Applied Mathematics University of Adelaide
Lines 32
In article 1pfj8k6abaccessdigexcom prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Mar3116181411683mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
It isnt feasible for Japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they
would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power
Of course Given they export 50 of the GNP What do they do
Well they dont export anywhere near 50 of their GNP Mexicos perhaps
but not their own They actually export around the 910 mark Similar
to most developed countries actually Australia exports a larger share
of GNP as does the United States 14 I think off hand Always likely to
be out by a factor of 12 or more though This would be immediately obvious
if you thought about it
Anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will
also hose their export routes
It is their import routes that count They can do without exports but
they couldnt live without imports for any longer than six months if that
Given they import everything oil is just one more critical commodity
Too true But one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry
Joseph Askew
Joseph Askew Gauche and Proud In the autumn stillness see the Pleiades
jaskewspammathsadelaideedu Remote in thorny deserts fell the grief
Disclaimer Sue see if I care North of our tents the sky must end somwhere
Actually I rather like Brenda Beyond the pale the River murmurs on
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1ql0d3$5vo@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM> geoff@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top) writes:
>Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
>posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
>subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
>was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
>the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
>such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
>saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:
Hey, it might to interesting to read some of these posts...
Especially from ones who still regularly posts on alt.atheism!
>>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
>
>An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?
Hee hee hee.
*I* ain't going to say....
---
" Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "
John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 34
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1ql0d35vodrpepperEastSunCOM geoffEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold Sun BOS RH coast near the top writes
Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables
Hey it might to interesting to read some of these posts
Especially from ones who still regularly posts on altatheism
From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky
An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is
Hee hee hee
I aint going to say
Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken
John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Victims of various 'Good Fight's
In-Reply-To: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au's message of 12 Apr 93 21: 36:33 +0930
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
<9454@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> <1993Apr12.213633.20143@levels.unisa.edu.au>
Lines: 12
>>>>> On 12 Apr 93 21:36:33 +0930, 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat) said:
TDB> 12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million
To be fair, this was going to happen eventually. Given time, the Americans
would have reached Europe on their own and the same thing would have
happened. It was just a matter of who got together first.
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re Victims of various Good Fights
InReplyTo 9051467flevelsunisaeduaus message of 12 Apr 93 21 3633 0930
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
9454tekig7PENTEKCOM 1993Apr1221363320143levelsunisaeduau
Lines 12
On 12 Apr 93 213633 0930 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat said
TDB 12 Disease introduced to Brazilian oher SAm tribes x million
To be fair this was going to happen eventually Given time the Americans
would have reached Europe on their own and the same thing would have
happened It was just a matter of who got together first
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
>>to be moral one? That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
>>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it?
>No, I'm saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral, somebody/
>someone/something must _consider_ it to be so. That implies intelligence,
>not instinct.
Who has to consider it? The being that does the action? I'm still
not sure I know what you are trying to say.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
to be moral one That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it
No Im saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral somebody
someonesomething must _consider_ it to be so That implies intelligence
not instinct
Who has to consider it The being that does the action Im still
not sure I know what you are trying to say
keith
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Overview for New Readers
Summary: Hi. Please read this before you post.
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Thu, 20 May 1993 10:52:53 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930413094109@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 145
Archive-name: atheism/overview
Alt-atheism-archive-name: overview
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.2
Overview
Welcome to alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated.
This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups.
Many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post
them to the net. In addition, people often request information which has
been posted time and time again. In order to try and cut down on this, the
alt.atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles:
1. Alt.Atheism FAQ: Overview for New Readers
2. Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
3. Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
4. Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
5. Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources
This is article number 1. Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting. The
others are entirely optional.
If you are new to Usenet, you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
news.announce.newusers. The articles titled "A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community", "Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet"
and "Hints on writing style for Usenet" are particularly relevant. Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in news.newusers.questions.
If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above, see the "Finding
Stuff" section below.
Credits
These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of alt.atheism and alt.atheism.moderated. In particular, I'd like to
thank the following people:
kck+@cs.cmu.edu (Karl Kluge)
perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
NETOPRWA@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Wayne Aiken)
chpetk@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Toby Kelsey)
jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold)
torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf)
roe2@quads.uchicago.edu (Greg Roelofs)
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
mayne@open.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
ajr@bigbird.hri.com (Andy Rosen)
stoesser@ira.uka.de (Achim Stoesser)
bosullvn@unix1.tcd.ie (Bryan O'Sullivan)
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
s1b3832@rigel.tamu.edu (S. Baum)
ydobyns@phoenix.princeton.edu (York H. Dobyns)
schroede@sdsc.edu (Wayne Schroeder)
baldwin@csservera.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
D_NIBBY@unhh.unh.edu (Dana Nibby)
dempsey@Kodak.COM (Richard C. Dempsey)
jmunch@hertz,elee.calpoly.edu (John David Munch)
pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
rz@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Richard Zach)
tycchow@math.mit.edu (Tim Chow)
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
...and countless others I've forgotten.
These articles are free. Truly free. You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish. However, please send any changes or corrections to the
author, and please do not re-post copies of the articles to alt.atheism; it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network.
Finding Stuff
All of the FAQ files *should* be somewhere on your news system. Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you can't find them:
1. Check the newsgroup alt.atheism. Look for subject lines starting with
"Alt.Atheism FAQ:".
2. Check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject lines.
If you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up
correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
problem.
3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27].
Go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest
versions of the FAQ files there.
FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers. If you
need help in using or getting started with FTP, send e-mail to
mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with
send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq
in the body.
4. There are other sites which also carry news.answers postings. The article
"Introduction to the news.answers newsgroup" carries a list of these
sites; the article is posted regularly to news.answers.
5. If you don't have FTP, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu
consisting of the following lines:
send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources
send usenet/alt.atheism/faq
send usenet/alt.atheism/introduction
send usenet/alt.atheism/logic
send usenet/alt.atheism/resources
5. (Penultimate resort) Send mail to mail-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of
the following lines:
send atheism/faq/faq.txt
send atheism/faq/logic.txt
send atheism/faq/intro.txt
send atheism/faq/resource.txt
and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files.
There's other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and
"send atheism/index".
6. (Last resort) Mail mathew@mantis.co.uk, or post an article to the
newsgroup asking how you can get the FAQ files. You should only do this
if you've tried the above methods and they've failed; it's not nice to
clutter the newsgroup or people's mailboxes with requests for files.
it's better than posting without reading the FAQ, though! For instance,
people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don't have
FTP will probably need assistance obtaining the FAQ files.
mathew
ÿ
after prepro From mathew
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Overview for New Readers
Summary Hi Please read this before you post
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Thu 20 May 1993 105253 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930413094109mantiscouk
Lines 145
Archivename atheismoverview
Altatheismarchivename overview
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 12
Overview
Welcome to altatheism and altatheismmoderated
This is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the
newsgroups
Many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions misstatements or misconceptions and post
them to the net In addition people often request information which has
been posted time and time again In order to try and cut down on this the
altatheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following
titles
1 AltAtheism FAQ Overview for New Readers
2 AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
3 AltAtheism FAQ Frequently Asked Questions FAQ
4 AltAtheism FAQ Constructing a Logical Argument
5 AltAtheism FAQ Atheist Resources
This is article number 1 Please read numbers 2 and 3 before posting The
others are entirely optional
If you are new to Usenet you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup
newsannouncenewusers The articles titled A Primer on How to Work With
the Usenet Community Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet
and Hints on writing style for Usenet are particularly relevant Questions
concerning how news works are best asked in newsnewusersquestions
If you are unable to find any of the articles listed above see the Finding
Stuff section below
Credits
These files could not have been written without the assistance of the many
readers of altatheism and altatheismmoderated In particular Id like to
thank the following people
kckcscmuedu Karl Kluge
perrydsinccom Jim Perry
NETOPRWAncsuvmccncsuedu Wayne Aiken
chpetkgdrbathacuk Toby Kelsey
jkpcsHUTFI Jyrki Kuoppala
geoffarnoldEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold
torkelsicsse Torkel Franzen
kmldorfutdallasedu George Kimeldorf
roe2quadsuchicagoedu Greg Roelofs
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee
madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson
dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
mayneopencsfsuedu William Mayne
ajrbigbirdhricom Andy Rosen
stoesseriraukade Achim Stoesser
bosullvnunix1tcdie Bryan OSullivan
lippardccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
s1b3832rigeltamuedu S Baum
ydobynsphoenixprincetonedu York H Dobyns
schroedesdscedu Wayne Schroeder
baldwincsserverausnanavymil JD Baldwin
D_NIBBYunhhunhedu Dana Nibby
dempseyKodakCOM Richard C Dempsey
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John David Munch
pdcdcsedacuk Paul Crowley
rzmipscomplangtuwienacat Richard Zach
tycchowmathmitedu Tim Chow
simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale
and countless others Ive forgotten
These articles are free Truly free You may copy them and distribute them
to anyone you wish However please send any changes or corrections to the
author and please do not repost copies of the articles to altatheism it
does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating
around the network
Finding Stuff
All of the FAQ files should be somewhere on your news system Here are
some suggestions on what to do if you cant find them
1 Check the newsgroup altatheism Look for subject lines starting with
AltAtheism FAQ
2 Check the newsgroup newsanswers for the same subject lines
If you dont find anything in steps 1 or 2 your news system isnt set up
correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
problem
3 If you have anonymous FTP access connect to rtfmmitedu [18172127]
Go to the directory pubusenetaltatheism and youll find the latest
versions of the FAQ files there
FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers If you
need help in using or getting started with FTP send email to
mailserverrtfmmitedu with
send usenetnewsanswersftplistfaq
in the body
4 There are other sites which also carry newsanswers postings The article
Introduction to the newsanswers newsgroup carries a list of these
sites the article is posted regularly to newsanswers
5 If you dont have FTP send mail to mailserverrtfmmitedu
consisting of the following lines
send usenetnewsanswersfindingsources
send usenetaltatheismfaq
send usenetaltatheismintroduction
send usenetaltatheismlogic
send usenetaltatheismresources
5 Penultimate resort Send mail to mailservermantiscouk consisting of
the following lines
send atheismfaqfaqtxt
send atheismfaqlogictxt
send atheismfaqintrotxt
send atheismfaqresourcetxt
and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files
Theres other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and
send atheismindex
6 Last resort Mail mathewmantiscouk or post an article to the
newsgroup asking how you can get the FAQ files You should only do this
if youve tried the above methods and theyve failed its not nice to
clutter the newsgroup or peoples mailboxes with requests for files
its better than posting without reading the FAQ though For instance
people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who dont have
FTP will probably need assistance obtaining the FAQ files
mathew
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 15
In article <1ql667INN54a@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>What I've been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior.
Do I smell .sig material here?
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
What Ive been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior
Do I smell sig material here
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr21.210712.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>> So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>> U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
>
>Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad? Directly I mean...
In fact, you probably want to avoid US Government anything for such a
project. The pricetag is invariably too high, either in money or in
hassles.
The important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to
the Moon is getting into low Earth orbit. Everything else is practically
down in the noise. The only part of getting to the Moon that poses any
new problems, beyond what you face in low orbit, is the last 10km --
the actual landing -- and that is not immensely difficult. Of course,
you *can* spend sagadollars (saga- is the metric prefix for beelyuns
and beelyuns) on things other than the launches, but you don't have to.
The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply (for
more than a brief visit, at least) is low-cost transport to Earth orbit.
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs, you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper. (Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this, perhaps, but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit.) Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way.
Given this, questions like whose launch facilities you use are *not* a
minor detail; they are very important to the cost of the launches, which
dominates the cost of the project.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 33
In article 1993Apr212107121auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Why must it be a US Government Space Launch Pad Directly I mean
In fact you probably want to avoid US Government anything for such a
project The pricetag is invariably too high either in money or in
hassles
The important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to
the Moon is getting into low Earth orbit Everything else is practically
down in the noise The only part of getting to the Moon that poses any
new problems beyond what you face in low orbit is the last 10km
the actual landing and that is not immensely difficult Of course
you can spend sagadollars saga is the metric prefix for beelyuns
and beelyuns on things other than the launches but you dont have to
The major component of any realistic plan to go to the Moon cheaply for
more than a brief visit at least is lowcost transport to Earth orbit
For what it costs to launch one Shuttle or two Titan IVs you can develop
a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper Delta Clipper
might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less
ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way
Given this questions like whose launch facilities you use are not a
minor detail they are very important to the cost of the launches which
dominates the cost of the project
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 17
Gene Wright (gene@theporch.raider.net) wrote:
: Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
: who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
: Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
: to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
I'm an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work, and I
throw around the $1 billion figure for that "reward." I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about $3 billion.
This would encourage private industry to invest in space, which
should be one of NASA's primary goals.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"Better. Faster. Cheaper." -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator
after prepro From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 17
Gene Wright genetheporchraidernet wrote
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
Im an advocate of this idea for funding Space Station work and I
throw around the 1 billion figure for that reward I suggest that
you increase the Lunar reward to about 3 billion
This would encourage private industry to invest in space which
should be one of NASAs primary goals
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
Better Faster Cheaper Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
Not so. If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
blame the tiger?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
Not so If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger
keith
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Event in Los Angeles, CA
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 52
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: OASIS (310) 364-2290
15 April 1993 Los Angeles, CA
LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY L.A.
ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD
On April 21, the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System (LPS) co-
inventor and vice-president of the LPS Coalition, Dr. Robert D.
Waldron. It will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks, CA.
Dr. Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey, California. He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement. He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization. Along with Dr. David
Criswell, Waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept.
Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal
experts, and Soviet and U.S. scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System, a pollution-free, energy source with a
potential to power the globe.
For the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half
from California, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon.
The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae. A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean, sustainable power to meet the Earth's ever
increasing demand using proven, basic technology.
OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization) is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society, which is an international non-profit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier.
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard, CA.
WHERE: Rockwell Science Center Auditorium, 1049 Camino
Dos Rios, Thousand Oaks, CA.
DIRECTIONS: Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks, exit onto
Lynn Road heading North (right turn from 101
North, Left turn from 101 South), after about 1/2
mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios, after about 1/2
mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
Colindo, Parking at Top of Hill to the Left
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Event in Los Angeles CA
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 52
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact OASIS 310 3642290
15 April 1993 Los Angeles CA
LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY LA
ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD
On April 21 the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System LPS co
inventor and vicepresident of the LPS Coalition Dr Robert D
Waldron It will be held at 730 pm at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks CA
Dr Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey California He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization Along with Dr David
Criswell Waldron invented the lunarsolar power system concept
Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal
experts and Soviet and US scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System a pollutionfree energy source with a
potential to power the globe
For the past three years members of the coalition nearly half
from California have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon
The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean sustainable power to meet the Earths ever
increasing demand using proven basic technology
OASIS Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society which is an international nonprofit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard CA
WHERE Rockwell Science Center Auditorium 1049 Camino
Dos Rios Thousand Oaks CA
DIRECTIONS Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks exit onto
Lynn Road heading North right turn from 101
North Left turn from 101 South after about 12
mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios after about 12
mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
Colindo Parking at Top of Hill to the Left
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <114127@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|>
|> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic
|> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
|> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
|> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
|> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
|> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
|> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
|> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts, people temporarily become atheists?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization sgi
Lines 15
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic
principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts
Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts people temporarily become atheists
jon
preprocess doc Subject: help for school
From: mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 14
I am a newbie to the net, and I am trying to get some information for a paper
I am working on to get back into college. If anyone can send me data on
Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be
a big help. Or, if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric
current, surge bafflers power companies use, or other effects sporatic aurora
have on the Earth's magnetic field, I'd be eternally gratefull. Please send
anything interesting to me at
Marty Crandall-Grela
Van Vleck Observatory
Wesleyan University
Middletown,Ct 06487
or e-mail it to me at mcrandall@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Thank-you in advance, Marty
after prepro Subject help for school
From mcrandalleaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 14
I am a newbie to the net and I am trying to get some information for a paper
I am working on to get back into college If anyone can send me data on
Solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be
a big help Or if you have information on more esoteric things like Telluric
current surge bafflers power companies use or other effects sporatic aurora
have on the Earths magnetic field Id be eternally gratefull Please send
anything interesting to me at
Marty CrandallGrela
Van Vleck Observatory
Wesleyan University
MiddletownCt 06487
or email it to me at mcrandalleaglewesleyanedu
Thankyou in advance Marty
preprocess doc From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Lines: 54
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Umar Khan (khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil) wrote:
>I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND
>SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille, a French surgeon. It is not comprehensive,
> He was unable
>to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Qur'an, but,
>what he did find made sense with modern understanding. So, he
>investigated the Traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to
>say about science. they were filled with science problems; after
>all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by
>pour standards, a primitive world view. His conclusion was that,
>while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
>say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
>Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
>the Traditions. How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?
This book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue.
The book is in two sections. Section 1 contains a fairly reasonable
analysis of the Bible, showing many inconsistencies between the Bible
and modern science. Well we all know that, no surprises.
Section 2 analyses the Koran's version of the Old Testament stories,
and seems, on the face of it, to present a good case showing the Koran
is consistent with modern science. However, it was plain to me, that
this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the
Koran. Take the flood, for example, the bible is full of detail,
("forty days and forty nights", "pair of every animal", etc.), we all
know this is nonsense. The Koran's description of the same event is
so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as "A big river
flooded for a few days and caused much damage". Yes, no contradiction
but also not much fact.
The Koran might be consistent with modern science, but being
consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that
time, does not seem much of an achievement.
The book concludes by saying something like, the Koran must have had
divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot
of (to us now) ridiculous ideas about the universe, and none of them
can be found in the Koran! Arguing for the greatness of a book by
talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme.
The above is, of course, from memory so I may have missed some points.
--
Leonard e-mail: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk
after prepro From LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
Organization University of Bradford UK
Lines 54
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Umar Khan khanitditdnrlnavymil wrote
I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE THE QURAN AND
SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille a French surgeon It is not comprehensive
He was unable
to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Quran but
what he did find made sense with modern understanding So he
investigated the Traditions the hadith to see what they had to
say about science they were filled with science problems after
all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by
pour standards a primitive world view His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it
This book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue
The book is in two sections Section 1 contains a fairly reasonable
analysis of the Bible showing many inconsistencies between the Bible
and modern science Well we all know that no surprises
Section 2 analyses the Korans version of the Old Testament stories
and seems on the face of it to present a good case showing the Koran
is consistent with modern science However it was plain to me that
this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the
Koran Take the flood for example the bible is full of detail
forty days and forty nights pair of every animal etc we all
know this is nonsense The Korans description of the same event is
so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as A big river
flooded for a few days and caused much damage Yes no contradiction
but also not much fact
The Koran might be consistent with modern science but being
consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that
time does not seem much of an achievement
The book concludes by saying something like the Koran must have had
divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot
of to us now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none of them
can be found in the Koran Arguing for the greatness of a book by
talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme
The above is of course from memory so I may have missed some points
Leonard email LNewnhambradfordacuk
preprocess doc From: jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu (Joe Vigneau)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
In-Reply-To: bevans@carina.unm.edu's message of 4 Apr 1993 12:19:20 GMT
Organization: -
<1993Apr3.214557.24073@midway.uchicago.edu> <1pmjo8INN2l0@lynx.unm.edu>
Lines: 21
In article <1pmjo8INN2l0@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
Just what do gay people do that straight people don't?
Absolutely nothing.
I'm a VERY straight(as an arrow), 17-year old male that is involved in the BSA.
I don't care what gay people do among each other, as long as they don't make
passes at me or anything. At my summer camp where I work, my boss is gay.
Not in a 'pansy' way of gay (I know a few), but just 'one of the guys'.
He doesn't push anything on me, and we give him the same respect back, due
to his position.
If anything, the BSA has taught me, I don't know, tolerance or something.
Before I met this guy, I thought all gays were 'faries'. So, the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot.
Basically, It comes down to this: What you do among yourself is your own
business. No one else has the right to tell you otherwise, unless it
violates someone else's civil rights.
after prepro From jvigneaucsulowelledu Joe Vigneau
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
InReplyTo bevanscarinaunmedus message of 4 Apr 1993 121920 GMT
Organization
1993Apr321455724073midwayuchicagoedu 1pmjo8INN2l0lynxunmedu
Lines 21
In article 1pmjo8INN2l0lynxunmedu bevanscarinaunmedu Mathemagician writes
Just what do gay people do that straight people dont
Absolutely nothing
Im a VERY straightas an arrow 17year old male that is involved in the BSA
I dont care what gay people do among each other as long as they dont make
passes at me or anything At my summer camp where I work my boss is gay
Not in a pansy way of gay I know a few but just one of the guys
He doesnt push anything on me and we give him the same respect back due
to his position
If anything the BSA has taught me I dont know tolerance or something
Before I met this guy I thought all gays were faries So the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot
Basically It comes down to this What you do among yourself is your own
business No one else has the right to tell you otherwise unless it
violates someone elses civil rights
preprocess doc From: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Reply-To: clj@ksr.com (Chris Jones)
Organization: Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines: 13
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
In article <1r6aqr$dnv@access.digex.net>, prb@access (Pat) writes:
>Voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
>solar system. All it's doing is collecting fields data, and routinely
>squirting it down. One of the mariners is also in stable
>solar orbit, and still providing similiar solar data.
There are no Mariner craft from which we are still receiving data. I believe
you are referring to one or more of Pioneers 6 through 9 (launched from
December 1965 through November 1968), which were put into solar orbits to study
interplanetary space. I recall reading that at least one of them was still
functioning 25 years after launch.
--
Chris Jones clj@ksr.com
after prepro From cljksrcom Chris Jones
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ReplyTo cljksrcom Chris Jones
Organization Kendall Square Research Corp
Lines 13
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcom Pat
In article 1r6aqrdnvaccessdigexnet prbaccess Pat writes
Voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system All its doing is collecting fields data and routinely
squirting it down One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit and still providing similiar solar data
There are no Mariner craft from which we are still receiving data I believe
you are referring to one or more of Pioneers 6 through 9 launched from
December 1965 through November 1968 which were put into solar orbits to study
interplanetary space I recall reading that at least one of them was still
functioning 25 years after launch
Chris Jones cljksrcom
preprocess doc From: jfc@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: achates.mit.edu
If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic, would absorption from the
galaxy be expected? How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays?
How much energy does a burster put out? I know energy depends on
distance, which is unknown. An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK.
--
John Carr (jfc@athena.mit.edu)
after prepro From jfcathenamitedu John F Carr
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost achatesmitedu
If gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the
galaxy be expected How transparent is the galactic core to gamma
rays
How much energy does a burster put out I know energy depends on
distance which is unknown An answer of the form _X_ ergs per
megaparsec^2 is OK
John Carr jfcathenamitedu
preprocess doc From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 80
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com
(References: deleted to move this to a new thread)
In article <114133@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <1phkf7INN86p@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>}Rushdie is, however, as I understand, a muslim.
>>}The fact that he's a British citizen does not preclude his being muslim.
>
>>Rushdie was an atheist (to use local terminology, not to put words in
>>his mouth) at the time of writing TSV and at the time of the fatwa in
>>February 1989.[...]
>
>Well, if he was born muslim (I am fairly certain he was) then he _is_
>muslim until he explicitly renounces Islam. So far as I know he has never
>explicitly renounced Islam, though he may have been in extreme doubt
>about the existence of God. Being muslim is a legal as well as
>intellectual issue, according to Islam.
"To put it as simply as possible: *I am not a Muslim*.[...] I do not
accept the charge of apostacy, because I have never in my adult life
affirmed any belief, and what one has not affirmed one can not be
said to have apostasized from. The Islam I know states clearly that
'there can be no coercion in matters of religion'. The many Muslims
I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
faith *purely by virtue of birth*, and that a person who freely chose
not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death."
Salman Rushdie, "In Good Faith", 1990
"God, Satan, Paradise, and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
year, when I quite abruptly lost my faith. [...]and afterwards, to
prove my new-found atheism, I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
sandwich, and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
the swine. No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down. [...] From that
day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person."
Salman Rushdie, "In God We Trust", 1985
>>[I] think the Rushdie affair has discredited Islam more in my eyes than
>>Khomeini -- I know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all
>>religions, but even apparently "moderate" Muslims have participated or
>>refused to distance themselves from the witch-hunt against Rushdie.
>
>Yes, I think this is true, but there Khomenei's motivations are quite
>irrelevant to the issue. The fact of the matter is that Rushdie made
>false statements (fiction, I know, but where is the line between fact
>and fiction?) about the life of Mohammad.
Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing. I'll accept it
(reluctantly) from mobs in Pakistan, but not from you. What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad. What's worse, the novel doesn't present the
Mahound/Mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam; in particular, there is no "lewd" misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives.
>That is why
>few people rush to his defense -- he's considered an absolute fool for
>his writings in _The Satanic Verses_.
Don't hold back; he's considered an apostate and a blasphemer.
However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book. I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
has convinced me that they have read the book. Some have initially
claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book.
>If you wish to understand the
>reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of "the
>satanic verses" [...] see the
>Penguin paperback by Rafiq Zakariyah called _Mohammad and the Quran_.
I'll keep an eye out for it. I have a counter-proposal: I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_. Perhaps then you'll understand.
--
Jim Perry perry@dsinc.com Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions. For a nominal fee, they can be yours.
after prepro From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 80
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom
References deleted to move this to a new thread
In article 114133buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1phkf7INN86pdsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Rushdie is however as I understand a muslim
The fact that hes a British citizen does not preclude his being muslim
Rushdie was an atheist to use local terminology not to put words in
his mouth at the time of writing TSV and at the time of the fatwa in
February 1989[]
Well if he was born muslim I am fairly certain he was then he _is_
muslim until he explicitly renounces Islam So far as I know he has never
explicitly renounced Islam though he may have been in extreme doubt
about the existence of God Being muslim is a legal as well as
intellectual issue according to Islam
To put it as simply as possible I am not a Muslim[] I do not
accept the charge of apostacy because I have never in my adult life
affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not be
said to have apostasized from The Islam I know states clearly that
there can be no coercion in matters of religion The many Muslims
I respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their
faith purely by virtue of birth and that a person who freely chose
not to be a Muslim could therefore be put to death
Salman Rushdie In Good Faith 1990
God Satan Paradise and Hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth
year when I quite abruptly lost my faith []and afterwards to
prove my newfound atheism I bought myself a rather tasteless ham
sandwich and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of
the swine No thunderbolt arrived to strike me down [] From that
day to this I have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person
Salman Rushdie In God We Trust 1985
[I] think the Rushdie affair has discredited Islam more in my eyes than
Khomeini I know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all
religions but even apparently moderate Muslims have participated or
refused to distance themselves from the witchhunt against Rushdie
Yes I think this is true but there Khomeneis motivations are quite
irrelevant to the issue The fact of the matter is that Rushdie made
false statements fiction I know but where is the line between fact
and fiction about the life of Mohammad
Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing Ill accept it
reluctantly from mobs in Pakistan but not from you What is
presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the
wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the
actual Mohammad Whats worse the novel doesnt present the
MahoundMohammed character in any worse light than secular histories
of Islam in particular there is no lewd misrepresentation of his
life or that of his wives
That is why
few people rush to his defense hes considered an absolute fool for
his writings in _The Satanic Verses_
Dont hold back hes considered an apostate and a blasphemer
However its not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_ but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book I have yet to find one single muslim who
has convinced me that they have read the book Some have initially
claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book
If you wish to understand the
reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of the
satanic verses [] see the
Penguin paperback by Rafiq Zakariyah called _Mohammad and the Quran_
Ill keep an eye out for it I have a counterproposal I suggest
that you see the Viking hardcover by Salman Rushdie called _The
Satanic Verses_ Perhaps then youll understand
Jim Perry perrydsinccom Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions For a nominal fee they can be yours
preprocess doc From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 160
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: judy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes...
>In article <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:
>
>>I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
>>line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
>>wrap at this university.
>
>Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
>of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and
>non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much
>of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors.
>The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and
>even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL
>charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA
>commercialization centers; they charge a fee.
>
You totally forgot the original post that you posted Allen. In that post
you stated that the "wrap" was on top of and in addition to any overhead.
Geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true.
>Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack
>experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand
>the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack
>of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
>is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't
>a flame, jsut a statement.
Come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing
what and who is working on integration. This is simply an ad hominum
attack and you know it.
>
>Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do.
>
Of course there is a fee. It is for administration. Geez Allen any
organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in legitimate
costs, such as libraries and other things that must be there to support
a program and "wrap" as you originally stated it.You stated that wrap
was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you
say is not true. Which is it Allen?
>>>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>>>costing people how much fee they add to a project.
>
>>I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
>>any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.
>
>Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in
>their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
>change depending on the customer.
>
As you have posted on this subject Allen, you state that wrap is over and
above overhead and is a seperate charge. You admit here that this is wrong.
Nasa has a line item budget every year. I have seen it Allen. Get some
numbers from that detailed NASA budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then
howl to high heaven about it. Until you do that you are barking in the wind.
>>No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
>>of the Overhead capital of NASA.
>
>Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead.
>
>>Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
>>better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on.
>
Integration could be done better at the centers. Apollo integration was
done here at Msfc and that did not turn out so bad. The philosophy of
Reston is totally wrong Allen. There you have a bunch of people who are
completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee. There
is no way that will ever work. It has never worked in any large scale project
that it was ever tried on. Could you imagine a Reston like set up for
Apollo?
>Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When
>WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where
>doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the
>only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
>problems and building a station.
>
Oh you are full of it Allen on this one. I agree that JSC screwed up big.
They should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it
replaced. To make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your
bias goes. Come to MSFC for a couple of weeks and you will find out just
how wrong you really are. Maybe not, people like you believe exactly what
they want to believe no matter what the facts are contrary to it.
>>Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
>>at a place where everything is overhead.
>
>When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that
>integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part
>of a successful large scale effort.
>
I agree that integration is the single most important part of a successful
large scale effort. What I completly disagree with is seperating that
integration function from the people that are doing the work. It is called
leadership Allen. That is what made Apollo work. Final responsibility for
the success of Apollo was held by less than 50 people. That is leadership
and responsibility. There is neither when you have any organization set up
as Reston is. You could take the same people and move them to JSC or MSFC
and they could do a much better job. Why did it take a year for Reston to
finally say something about the problem? If they were on site and part of the
process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place.
There is one heck of a lot I do not know Allen, but one thing I do know is that
for a project to be successful you must have leadership. I remember all of the
turn over at Reston that kept SSF program in shambles for years do you? It is
lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem. Lack of
leadership from the White House, Congress and at Reston. Nasa is only a
symptom of a greater national problem. You are so narrowly focused in your
efforts that you do not see this.
>>Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
>>demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being
>>selective with the facts again.
>
>The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
>Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers
>you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address
>the problems until the press published the story.
>
>Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
>the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns?
>
No, I am saying that if they were located at JSC it never would have
happened in the first place.
>>If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
>>of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
>>"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
>>for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a
>>blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.
>
>You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for
>resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying
>is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport.
>
>>Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
>>to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
>>do so.
>
>I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
>Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed.
>
I have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is
at reston was on site at JSC the problem never would have happened, totally
ignoring the lack of leadership of congress. This many headed hydra that
has grown up at NASA is the true problem of the Agency and to try to
change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of
your position.
Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville
after prepro From wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization University of Houston
Lines 160
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost judyuhedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 17APR199316423628judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes
I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university
Dennis I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of Customers included government including NASA for profit and
nonprofit companies All expected a wrap usually called a fee Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors
The subcontractors where universities forprofits nonprofits and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space ALL
charged fees as part of the work Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers they charge a fee
You totally forgot the original post that you posted Allen In that post
you stated that the wrap was on top of and in addition to any overhead
Geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true
Now Im sure your a competent engineer Dennis but you clearly lack
experience in several areas Your posts show that you dont understand
the importance of integration in large projects You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything This isnt
a flame jsut a statement
Come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing
what and who is working on integration This is simply an ad hominum
attack and you know it
Your employer DOES charge a fee You may not see it but you do
Of course there is a fee It is for administration Geez Allen any
organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in legitimate
costs such as libraries and other things that must be there to support
a program and wrap as you originally stated itYou stated that wrap
was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you
say is not true Which is it Allen
Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project
I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead
Well there you are Dennis As I said they simply include the fee in
their overhead Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer
As you have posted on this subject Allen you state that wrap is over and
above overhead and is a seperate charge You admit here that this is wrong
Nasa has a line item budget every year I have seen it Allen Get some
numbers from that detailed NASA budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then
howl to high heaven about it Until you do that you are barking in the wind
No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA
Integration Dennis isnt overhead
Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on
Integration could be done better at the centers Apollo integration was
done here at Msfc and that did not turn out so bad The philosophy of
Reston is totally wrong Allen There you have a bunch of people who are
completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee There
is no way that will ever work It has never worked in any large scale project
that it was ever tried on Could you imagine a Reston like set up for
Apollo
Dennis Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station
Oh you are full of it Allen on this one I agree that JSC screwed up big
They should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it
replaced To make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your
bias goes Come to MSFC for a couple of weeks and you will find out just
how wrong you really are Maybe not people like you believe exactly what
they want to believe no matter what the facts are contrary to it
Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead
When you have a bit more experience Dennis you will realize that
integration isnt overhead It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort
I agree that integration is the single most important part of a successful
large scale effort What I completly disagree with is seperating that
integration function from the people that are doing the work It is called
leadership Allen That is what made Apollo work Final responsibility for
the success of Apollo was held by less than 50 people That is leadership
and responsibility There is neither when you have any organization set up
as Reston is You could take the same people and move them to JSC or MSFC
and they could do a much better job Why did it take a year for Reston to
finally say something about the problem If they were on site and part of the
process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place
There is one heck of a lot I do not know Allen but one thing I do know is that
for a project to be successful you must have leadership I remember all of the
turn over at Reston that kept SSF program in shambles for years do you It is
lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem Lack of
leadership from the White House Congress and at Reston Nasa is only a
symptom of a greater national problem You are so narrowly focused in your
efforts that you do not see this
Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being
selective with the facts again
The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress Suprise suprise The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldnt address
the problems until the press published the story
Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns
No I am saying that if they were located at JSC it never would have
happened in the first place
If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see
You should know Dennis that NASA doesnt include transport costs for
resuply That comes from the Shuttle budget What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport
Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so
I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed
I have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is
at reston was on site at JSC the problem never would have happened totally
ignoring the lack of leadership of congress This many headed hydra that
has grown up at NASA is the true problem of the Agency and to try to
change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of
your position
Dennis University of Alabama in Huntsville
preprocess doc From: pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker)
Subject: Re: Rawlins debunks creationism
Organization: I didn't do it, nobody saw me, you can't prove a thing.
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr15.223844.16453@rambo.atlanta.dg.com>,
wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins) wrote:
>
> We are talking about origins, not merely science. Science cannot
> explain origins. For a person to exclude anything but science from
> the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth
> than science. This is a false premise.
Says who? Other than a hear-say god.
> By the way, I enjoy science.
You sure don't understand it.
> It is truly a wonder observing God's creation. Macroevolution is
> a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed
> within three percent error :) ]
Bill, I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit I've seen in a whils. I'm afraid there's not a bit of religion in
macroevolution, and you've made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins; to a large extent, it already has!
> // Bill Rawlins <wpr@atlanta.dg.com> //
Peter W. Walker "Yu, shall I tell you what knowledge is? When
Dept. of Space Physics you know a thing, say that you know it. When
and Astronomy you do not know a thing, admit you do not know
Rice University it. This is knowledge."
Houston, TX - K'ung-fu Tzu
after prepro From pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker
Subject Re Rawlins debunks creationism
Organization I didnt do it nobody saw me you cant prove a thing
Lines 30
In article 1993Apr1522384416453ramboatlantadgcom
wpratlantadgcom Bill Rawlins wrote
We are talking about origins not merely science Science cannot
explain origins For a person to exclude anything but science from
the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth
than science This is a false premise
Says who Other than a hearsay god
By the way I enjoy science
You sure dont understand it
It is truly a wonder observing Gods creation Macroevolution is
a mixture of 15 percent science and 85 percent religion [guaranteed
within three percent error ]
Bill I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award for the biggist pile of
bullshit Ive seen in a whils Im afraid theres not a bit of religion in
macroevolution and youve made a rather grand statement that Science can
not explain origins to a large extent it already has
Bill Rawlins
Peter W Walker Yu shall I tell you what knowledge is When
Dept of Space Physics you know a thing say that you know it When
and Astronomy you do not know a thing admit you do not know
Rice University it This is knowledge
Houston TX Kungfu Tzu
preprocess doc From: chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>My syllogism is of the form:
>A is B.
>C is A.
>Therefore C is B.
>This is a logically valid construction.
>Your syllogism, however, is of the form:
>A is B.
>C is B.
>Therefore C is A.
>Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction,
>and your comments don't apply.
>I appeal to Mathew (Mantis) here who wrote the excellent
>post (now part of the FAQ) on logical argument.
>Jim B.
I am not Mathew (Mantis) but any (successful) first year logic student will see that you are logically correct, the other poster is logically incorrect.
--
"I know" is nothing more than "I believe" with pretentions.
after prepro From chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines 26
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost baarnietafesaeduau
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
My syllogism is of the form
A is B
C is A
Therefore C is B
This is a logically valid construction
Your syllogism however is of the form
A is B
C is B
Therefore C is A
Therefore yours is a logically invalid construction
and your comments dont apply
I appeal to Mathew Mantis here who wrote the excellent
post now part of the FAQ on logical argument
Jim B
I am not Mathew Mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster is logically incorrect
I know is nothing more than I believe with pretentions
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>>How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
>>>default? ... Where's the cutoff point?
>>I don't know where the exact cutoff is, but it is at least after a few
>>years, and surely after 40 years.
>Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
>in population makeup?
Specifically, which changes are you talking about? Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
How long does it [the motto] have to stay around before it becomes the
default Wheres the cutoff point
I dont know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few
years and surely after 40 years
Why does the notion of default not take into account changes
in population makeup
Specifically which changes are you talking about Are you arguing
that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the
population now than 40 years ago
keith
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15
In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> goltz@mimi.UU.NET (James P. Goltz) writes:
> Would this work? I can't see the EM radiation impelling very much
>momentum (especially given the mass of the pusher plate), and it seems
>to me you're going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
>out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
>they're there.
The Orion concept as actually proposed (as opposed to the way it has been
somewhat misrepresented in some fiction) included wrapping a thick layer
of reaction mass -- probably plastic of some sort -- around each bomb.
The bomb vaporizes the reaction mass, and it's that which transfers
momentum to the pusher plate.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15
In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET goltzmimiUUNET James P Goltz writes
Would this work I cant see the EM radiation impelling very much
momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems
to me youre going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs
out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once
theyre there
The Orion concept as actually proposed as opposed to the way it has been
somewhat misrepresented in some fiction included wrapping a thick layer
of reaction mass probably plastic of some sort around each bomb
The bomb vaporizes the reaction mass and its that which transfers
momentum to the pusher plate
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: wawers@lif.de (Theo Wawers)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Lahmeyer International, Frankfurt
Lines: 15
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
There is a nice little tool in Lucid emacs. It's called "calendar".
On request it shows for given longitude/latitude coordinates times for
sunset and sunrise. The code is written in lisp.
I don't know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to
calculate these things.
Theo W.
Theo Wawers LAHMEYER INTERNATIONAL GMBH
email : wawers@sunny.lif.de Lyonerstr. 22
phone : +49 69 66 77 639 D-6000 Frankfurt/Main
fax : +49 69 66 77 571 Germany
after prepro From wawerslifde Theo Wawers
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Lahmeyer International Frankfurt
Lines 15
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
There is a nice little tool in Lucid emacs Its called calendar
On request it shows for given longitudelatitude coordinates times for
sunset and sunrise The code is written in lisp
I dont know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to
calculate these things
Theo W
Theo Wawers LAHMEYER INTERNATIONAL GMBH
email wawerssunnylifde Lyonerstr 22
phone 49 69 66 77 639 D6000 FrankfurtMain
fax 49 69 66 77 571 Germany
preprocess doc From: C.H.A.Wong@bradford.ac.uk (CHA WONG)
Subject: How can you see the launch of the Space Shuttle ?
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Lines: 28
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Sorry for asking a question that's not entirely based on the
technical aspects of space, but I couldn't find the
answer on the FAQs !
I'm currently in the UK, which makes seeing a Space Shuttle
launch a little difficult.....
However, I have been selected to be an exchange student
at Louisiana State Uni. from August, and I am absolutely
determined to get to see a Space Shuttle launch sometime
during the year at which I will be in America.
I hear there's a bit of a long mailing list, so if someone
can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from, then
please E-mail me !
Thanks very much for your patience....
(And if anyone else wants to know, tell me and I'll summarize
for you - just to save all those poor people who have to
pay for their links !)
--
=============================== April is the cruellest month
Andrew Wong \ Mixing memory and desire
-----x----- \
E-mail:C.H.A.Wong@bradford.ac.uk \ T.S.Eliot - The Wasteland 1918
after prepro From CHAWongbradfordacuk CHA WONG
Subject How can you see the launch of the Space Shuttle
Organization University of Bradford UK
Lines 28
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Sorry for asking a question thats not entirely based on the
technical aspects of space but I couldnt find the
answer on the FAQs
Im currently in the UK which makes seeing a Space Shuttle
launch a little difficult
However I have been selected to be an exchange student
at Louisiana State Uni from August and I am absolutely
determined to get to see a Space Shuttle launch sometime
during the year at which I will be in America
I hear theres a bit of a long mailing list so if someone
can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from then
please Email me
Thanks very much for your patience
And if anyone else wants to know tell me and Ill summarize
for you just to save all those poor people who have to
pay for their links
April is the cruellest month
Andrew Wong \ Mixing memory and desire
x \
EmailCHAWongbradfordacuk \ TSEliot The Wasteland 1918
preprocess doc From: cjhs@minster.york.ac.uk
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: world
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
Lines: 11
: Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve, and that all
: humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings.? Then who
: were Cain and Able's wives? Couldn't be their sisters, because A&E
: didn't have daughters. Were they non-humans?
Genesis 5:4
and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years, and
he begat sons and daughters:
Felicitations -- Chris Ho-Stuart
after prepro From cjhsminsteryorkacuk
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution world
Organization Department of Computer Science University of York England
Lines 11
Are you saying that their was a physical Adam and Eve and that all
humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings Then who
were Cain and Ables wives Couldnt be their sisters because AE
didnt have daughters Were they nonhumans
Genesis 54
and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years and
he begat sons and daughters
Felicitations Chris HoStuart
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: HST
SOmebody mentioned a re-boost of HST during this mission, meaning
that Weight is a very tight margin on this mission.
How will said re-boost be done?
Grapple, HST, stow it in Cargo bay, do OMS burn to high altitude,
unstow HST, repair gyros, costar install, fix solar arrays,
then return to earth?
My guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost?
why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled
thruster module to HST, then let it make the re-boost. it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug. that way, now that
they are going to need at least 5 spacewalks, then they can carry
an EDO pallet, and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array
tilt motor fix.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords HST
SOmebody mentioned a reboost of HST during this mission meaning
that Weight is a very tight margin on this mission
How will said reboost be done
Grapple HST stow it in Cargo bay do OMS burn to high altitude
unstow HST repair gyros costar install fix solar arrays
then return to earth
My guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost
why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled
thruster module to HST then let it make the reboost it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug that way now that
they are going to need at least 5 spacewalks then they can carry
an EDO pallet and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array
tilt motor fix
pat
preprocess doc From: pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Nntp-Posting-Host: extro.ucc.su.oz.au
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Lines: 25
jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
>head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
>determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
>Moon). Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
>upon whether the Soviets tried to go. Setting up a lunar base
>would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
>that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
>of going to Mars (at least in the short run). Thus we would
>have concentrated on the moon.
Great speculation - I remember being proud on behalf of all the free
world (you think that way when you are seven years old) that we had
got there first. Now I'm almost sorry that it worked out that way.
I guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too, and
would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that
overtook the US program. Perhaps stretching to match US efforts would
have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact - and in the tradition
of Marvel Comics 'What If', this destabilization in the Brezhnev era might
have triggered the third world war. Hmm, maybe it was a giant leap after all.
--
Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au | Accept Everything. |
UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete | Reject Nothing. |
after prepro From peteextrouccsuOZAU Peter Alexander Merel
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
NntpPostingHost extrouccsuozau
Organization Sydney University Computing Service Sydney NSW Australia
Lines 25
jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon
Great speculation I remember being proud on behalf of all the free
world you think that way when you are seven years old that we had
got there first Now Im almost sorry that it worked out that way
I guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too and
would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that
overtook the US program Perhaps stretching to match US efforts would
have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact and in the tradition
of Marvel Comics What If this destabilization in the Brezhnev era might
have triggered the third world war Hmm maybe it was a giant leap after all
Internet peteextrosuozau Accept Everything
UUCP uunetmcvaxmunnariextropete Reject Nothing
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
t> <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu><1pnuke$idn@access.digex.net>
<SHAFER.93Apr4200752@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov><pgf.734062799@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
In-Reply-To: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu's message of Tue, 6 Apr 1993 02:19:59 GMT
Lines: 64
On Tue, 6 Apr 1993 02:19:59 GMT, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) said:
Phil> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>On 4 Apr 1993 20:31:10 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:
>Pat> In article <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu> Pat>
>nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >Question is can someone give me 10
>examples of direct NASA/Space related >research that helped humanity
>in general? It will be interesting to see..
>Pat> TANG :-) Mylar I think. I think they also pushed Hi Tech Pat>
>Composites for airframes. Look at Fly by Wire.
>Swept wings--if you fly in airliners you've reaped the benefits.
Phil> Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these? I also think
Phil> the germans did some work on these in WWII.
The NACA came up with them before World War II. NASA is directly
descended from the NACA, with space added in.
You'll notice that I didn't mention sweep wings even though the
X-5, tested at what's now Dryden, had them. We did steal that one
dirctly from the Germans. The difference is that swept wings don't
change their angle of sweep, sweep wings do. Perhaps the similarity
of names has caused some confusion? 747s have swept wings, F-111s
have sweep wings.
>Winglets. Area ruling. Digital fly by wire. Ride smoothing.
Phil> A lot of this was also done by the military...
After NASA aerodynamicists proposed them and NASA test teams
demonstrated them. Richard Whitcomb and R.T. Jones, at Langley
Research Center, were giants in the field.
Dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area
ruling (in the 70s and 50s, respectively). It's true that we
used military aircraft as the testbeds (KC-135 and YF-102) but
that had more to do with availability and need than with military
involvement. The YF-102 was completely ours and the KC-135 was
bailed to us. The Air Force, of course, was interested in our
results and supportive of our efforts.
Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. No
mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were.
General Dynamics decided to make the F-16 flyby-wire when they saw how
successful we were. (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)
Phil> Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!
The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. On the other
hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
can't do.
--
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot
after prepro Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
From shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer
t 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu1pnukeidnaccessdigexnet
Organization NASA Dryden Edwards Cal
InReplyTo pgfsrl03cacsusledus message of Tue 6 Apr 1993 021959 GMT
Lines 64
On Tue 6 Apr 1993 021959 GMT pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering said
Phil shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes
On 4 Apr 1993 203110 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said
Pat In article 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu Pat
nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes Question is can someone give me 10
examples of direct NASASpace related research that helped humanity
in general It will be interesting to see
Pat TANG Mylar I think I think they also pushed Hi Tech Pat
Composites for airframes Look at Fly by Wire
Swept wingsif you fly in airliners youve reaped the benefits
Phil Didnt one of the early jet fighters have these I also think
Phil the germans did some work on these in WWII
The NACA came up with them before World War II NASA is directly
descended from the NACA with space added in
Youll notice that I didnt mention sweep wings even though the
X5 tested at whats now Dryden had them We did steal that one
dirctly from the Germans The difference is that swept wings dont
change their angle of sweep sweep wings do Perhaps the similarity
of names has caused some confusion 747s have swept wings F111s
have sweep wings
Winglets Area ruling Digital fly by wire Ride smoothing
Phil A lot of this was also done by the military
After NASA aerodynamicists proposed them and NASA test teams
demonstrated them Richard Whitcomb and RT Jones at Langley
Research Center were giants in the field
Dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area
ruling in the 70s and 50s respectively Its true that we
used military aircraft as the testbeds KC135 and YF102 but
that had more to do with availability and need than with military
involvement The YF102 was completely ours and the KC135 was
bailed to us The Air Force of course was interested in our
results and supportive of our efforts
Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s No
mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were
General Dynamics decided to make the F16 flybywire when they saw how
successful we were Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog
Phil Egad Im disagreeing with Mary Shafer
The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do
Mary Shafer DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Of course I dont speak for NASA
A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all Unknown US fighter pilot
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 120
In <16BA7103C3.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.091258.11830@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
>(Deletion)
>>>>Of course people say what they think to be the religion, and that this
>>>>is not exactly the same coming from different people within the
>>>>religion. There is nothing with there existing different perspectives
>>>>within the religion -- perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on
>>>>the truth.
>>
>>>My point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime.
>>>
>>>And that they converge is counterfactual, religions appear to split and
>>>diverge. Even when there might be a 'True Religion' at the core, the layers
>>>above determine what happens in practise, and they are quite inhumane
>>>usually.
>>>
>
>What you post then is supposed to be an answer, but I don't see what is has
>got to do with what I say.
>
>I will repeat it. Religions as are harm people. And religions don't
>converge, they split. Giving more to disagree upon. And there is a lot
>of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be
>tolerant at all.
Ideologies also split, giving more to disagree upon, and may also lead
to intolerance. So do you also oppose all ideologies?
I don't think your argument is an argument against religion at all, but
just points out the weaknesses of human nature.
>(Big deletion)
>>(2) Do women have souls in Islam?
>>
>>People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
>>souls. I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
>>Muslims of any era. I have heard of some Christians of some eras
>>holding this viewpoint, but not Muslims. Are you sure you might not be
>>confusing Christian history with Islamic history?
>
>Yes, it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
>Caliphate.
I would like a reference if you have got one, for this is news to me.
>>Anyhow, that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown
>>from many verses of the Qur'an. For example, the Qur'an says:
>>
>>"For Muslim men and women, --
>>for believing men and women,
>>for devout men and women,
>>for true men and women,
>>for men and women who are patient and constant,
>>for men and women who humble themselves,
>>for men and women who give in charity,
>>for men and women who fast (and deny themselves),
>>for men and women who guard their chastity,
>>and for men and women who engage much in God's praise --
>>For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward."
>>
>>[Qur'an 33:35, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation]
>>
>>There are other quotes too, but I think the above quote shows that men
>>and women are spiritual equals (and thus, that women have souls just as
>>men do) very clearly.
>>
>
>No, it does not. It implies that they have souls, but it does not say they
>have souls. And it is not given that the quote above is given a high
>priority in all interpretations.
One must approach the Qur'an with intelligence. Any thinking approach
to the Qur'an cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it
that women and men are spiritual equals.
I think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have
souls. Does it make any sense for something without a soul to be
forgiven? Or to have a great reward (understood to be in the
after-life)? I think the usual answer would be no -- in which case, the
part saying "For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward"
says they have souls.
(If it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven, then
I have no idea _what_ a soul is.)
As for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority
in all interpretations, any thinking approach to the Qur'an has to give
all verses of the Qur'an equal priority. That is because, according to
Muslim belief, the _whole_ Qur'an is the revelation of God -- in fact,
denying the truth of any part of the Qur'an is sufficient to be
considered a disbeliever in Islam.
>Quite similar to you other post, even when the Quran does not encourage
>slavery, it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to
>slavery. It is a non sequitur.
Look, any approach to the Qur'an must be done with intelligence and
thought. It is in this fashion that one can try to understand the
Quran's message. In a book of finite length, it cannot explicitly
answer every question you want to put to it, but through its teachings
it can guide you. I think, however, that women are the spiritual equals
of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse, and that
since women can clearly be "forgiven" and "rewarded" they _must_ have
souls (from the above verse).
Let's try to understand what the Qur'an is trying to teach, rather than
try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this
passage or that passage. The misinterpretations of the Qur'an based on
ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite, but the interpretations
fully consistent are more limited. Let's try to discuss these
interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can
ignore this bit or that bit, for that is just showing how people can try
to twist Islam for their own ends -- something I do not deny -- but
provides no reflection on the true teachings of Islam whatsoever.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam Dress Code for women
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 120
In 16BA7103C3I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1993Apr509125811830monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
Deletion
Of course people say what they think to be the religion and that this
is not exactly the same coming from different people within the
religion There is nothing with there existing different perspectives
within the religion perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on
the truth
My point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime
And that they converge is counterfactual religions appear to split and
diverge Even when there might be a True Religion at the core the layers
above determine what happens in practise and they are quite inhumane
usually
What you post then is supposed to be an answer but I dont see what is has
got to do with what I say
I will repeat it Religions as are harm people And religions dont
converge they split Giving more to disagree upon And there is a lot
of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be
tolerant at all
Ideologies also split giving more to disagree upon and may also lead
to intolerance So do you also oppose all ideologies
I dont think your argument is an argument against religion at all but
just points out the weaknesses of human nature
Big deletion
2 Do women have souls in Islam
People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
souls I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
Muslims of any era I have heard of some Christians of some eras
holding this viewpoint but not Muslims Are you sure you might not be
confusing Christian history with Islamic history
Yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
Caliphate
I would like a reference if you have got one for this is news to me
Anyhow that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown
from many verses of the Quran For example the Quran says
For Muslim men and women
for believing men and women
for devout men and women
for true men and women
for men and women who are patient and constant
for men and women who humble themselves
for men and women who give in charity
for men and women who fast and deny themselves
for men and women who guard their chastity
and for men and women who engage much in Gods praise
For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward
[Quran 3335 Abdullah Yusuf Alis translation]
There are other quotes too but I think the above quote shows that men
and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just as
men do very clearly
No it does not It implies that they have souls but it does not say they
have souls And it is not given that the quote above is given a high
priority in all interpretations
One must approach the Quran with intelligence Any thinking approach
to the Quran cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it
that women and men are spiritual equals
I think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have
souls Does it make any sense for something without a soul to be
forgiven Or to have a great reward understood to be in the
afterlife I think the usual answer would be no in which case the
part saying For them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward
says they have souls
If it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven then
I have no idea _what_ a soul is
As for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority
in all interpretations any thinking approach to the Quran has to give
all verses of the Quran equal priority That is because according to
Muslim belief the _whole_ Quran is the revelation of God in fact
denying the truth of any part of the Quran is sufficient to be
considered a disbeliever in Islam
Quite similar to you other post even when the Quran does not encourage
slavery it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to
slavery It is a non sequitur
Look any approach to the Quran must be done with intelligence and
thought It is in this fashion that one can try to understand the
Qurans message In a book of finite length it cannot explicitly
answer every question you want to put to it but through its teachings
it can guide you I think however that women are the spiritual equals
of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse and that
since women can clearly be forgiven and rewarded they _must_ have
souls from the above verse
Lets try to understand what the Quran is trying to teach rather than
try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this
passage or that passage The misinterpretations of the Quran based on
ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite but the interpretations
fully consistent are more limited Lets try to discuss these
interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can
ignore this bit or that bit for that is just showing how people can try
to twist Islam for their own ends something I do not deny but
provides no reflection on the true teachings of Islam whatsoever
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 33
higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>(Josh Hopkins) writes:
>> I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in
>> connection with their proposal for an early manned landing.
>The General Chairman is Paul Bialla, who is some official of General
>Dynamics.
>The emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people*
>on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. You'd
>think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
>modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but
>there's not a hint of this in the brochure.
It may be that they just didn't mention it, or that they actually haven't
thought about it. I got the vague impression from their mission proposal
that they weren't taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing. They
seemed to want to land people on the Moon by the end of the decade without
explaining why, or what they would do once they got there. The only application
I remember from the Av Week article was placing a telescope on the Moon. That's
great, but they don't explain why it can't be done robotically.
>> Hrumph. They didn't send _me_ anything :(
>You're not hanging out with the Right People, apparently.
But I'm a _member_. Besides Bill, I hang out with you :)
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Distribution na
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 33
higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
Josh Hopkins writes
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing
The General Chairman is Paul Bialla who is some official of General
Dynamics
The emphasis seems to be on a scaleddown fast plan to put people
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflightfunding climate Youd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but
theres not a hint of this in the brochure
It may be that they just didnt mention it or that they actually havent
thought about it I got the vague impression from their mission proposal
that they werent taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing They
seemed to want to land people on the Moon by the end of the decade without
explaining why or what they would do once they got there The only application
I remember from the Av Week article was placing a telescope on the Moon Thats
great but they dont explain why it cant be done robotically
Hrumph They didnt send _me_ anything
Youre not hanging out with the Right People apparently
But Im a _member_ Besides Bill I hang out with you
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 10
In article <1qk4qf$mf8@male.EBay.Sun.COM> almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>Hey!? What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
>for Columbus+500?
There was a recession, and none of the potential entrants could raise any
money. The race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of
the fundraising, but the less said about that the better.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 10
In article 1qk4qfmf8maleEBaySunCOM almopackmindEBaySunCOM writes
Hey What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus500
There was a recession and none of the potential entrants could raise any
money The race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of
the fundraising but the less said about that the better
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Benediktine Metaphysics
Lines: 24
Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:
> IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.
"Contradictory" is a property of language. If I correct this to
THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
I will object to definitions as reality. If you then amend it to
THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
then we've come to something which is plainly false. Failures in
description are merely failures in description.
(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Benediktine Metaphysics
Lines 24
Benedikt Rosenau writes with great authority
IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST
Contradictory is a property of language If I correct this to
THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
I will object to definitions as reality If you then amend it to
THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
then weve come to something which is plainly false Failures in
description are merely failures in description
Im not an objectivist remember
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: gawne@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Vulcan? (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Distribution: na
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines: 42
In article <VNci2B7w165w@inqmind.bison.mb.ca>, victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
(Victor Laking) writes:
> Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
>
> All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
> drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's
> orbit. Beyond that, I have no other info.
The sightings were apparently spurious. There is no planet inside of
the orbit of Mercury.
The idea of Vulcan came from the differences between Mercury's observed
perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to
Newtonian physics. Leverrier made an extensive set of observations
and calculations during the mid 19th century, and Simon Newcombe later
improved on the observations and re-calculated using Leverrier's system
of equations. Now Leverrier was one of the co-discoverers of Neptune
and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit
of Uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was
afoot with Mercury.
But alas, 'twere not so. Mercury's perihelion precesses at the rate
it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly
curved due to the sun's mass. This explanation had to wait until 1915
and Albert Einstein's synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics
of moving bodies (commonly called Special Relativity) with Reimanian
geometry. The result was the General Theory of Relativity, and one of
it's most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession
of Mercury's perihelion almost exactly. (Exactly if you use Newcomb's
numbers rather than Leverrier's.)
Of course not everybody believes Einstein, and that's fine. But subsequent
efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than Mercury using radar
have been fruitless.
-Bill Gawne
"Forgive him, he is a barbarian, who thinks the customs of his tribe
are the laws of the universe." - G. J. Caesar
Any opinions are my own. Nothing in this post constitutes an official
statement from any person or organization.
after prepro From gawnestsciedu
Subject Re Vulcan No not the guy with the ears
Distribution na
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines 42
In article victorinqmindbisonmbca
Victor Laking writes
Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys
orbit Beyond that I have no other info
The sightings were apparently spurious There is no planet inside of
the orbit of Mercury
The idea of Vulcan came from the differences between Mercurys observed
perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to
Newtonian physics Leverrier made an extensive set of observations
and calculations during the mid 19th century and Simon Newcombe later
improved on the observations and recalculated using Leverriers system
of equations Now Leverrier was one of the codiscoverers of Neptune
and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit
of Uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was
afoot with Mercury
But alas twere not so Mercurys perihelion precesses at the rate
it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly
curved due to the suns mass This explanation had to wait until 1915
and Albert Einsteins synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics
of moving bodies commonly called Special Relativity with Reimanian
geometry The result was the General Theory of Relativity and one of
its most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession
of Mercurys perihelion almost exactly Exactly if you use Newcombs
numbers rather than Leverriers
Of course not everybody believes Einstein and thats fine But subsequent
efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than Mercury using radar
have been fruitless
Bill Gawne
Forgive him he is a barbarian who thinks the customs of his tribe
are the laws of the universe G J Caesar
Any opinions are my own Nothing in this post constitutes an official
statement from any person or organization
preprocess doc From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 1 AW&ST
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 10
>Marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one SRB
>during the Jan 12 Endeavour launch. It lasted only three seconds and
>the thrust difference between the two SRBs was not enough to cause
>nozzle gimballing. The SRB casing shows no abnormalities.
Is this the one that had the {wrench|pliers} found inside after
recovery?
after prepro From schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher
Subject Re space news from Feb 1 AWST
NntpPostingHost starmanconvexcom
Organization CONVEX Computer Corporation Richardson Tx USA
XDisclaimer This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX
Lines 10
Marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one SRB
during the Jan 12 Endeavour launch It lasted only three seconds and
the thrust difference between the two SRBs was not enough to cause
nozzle gimballing The SRB casing shows no abnormalities
Is this the one that had the wrenchpliers found inside after
recovery
preprocess doc Subject: Life on Mars???
From: schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer)
Organization: Inland Steel Company, East Chicago, IN
Nntp-Posting-Host: pa881a
Nntp-Posting-User: schiewer
Lines: 9
What is the deal with life on Mars? I save the "face" and heard
associated theories. (which sound thin to me)
Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
Does anyone buy all the life theories?
--
Don Schiewer | Internet schiewer@pa881a.inland.com | Onward Great
Inland Steel | UUCP: !uucp!pa881a.inland!schiewer | Stream...
after prepro Subject Life on Mars
From schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer
Organization Inland Steel Company East Chicago IN
NntpPostingHost pa881a
NntpPostingUser schiewer
Lines 9
What is the deal with life on Mars I save the face and heard
associated theories which sound thin to me
Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Does anyone buy all the life theories
Don Schiewer Internet schiewerpa881ainlandcom Onward Great
Inland Steel UUCP uucppa881ainlandschiewer Stream
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 04/15 - Calculations
Supersedes: <math_730956451@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 334
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:56:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/math
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:12 $
PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS
COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES
References that have been frequently recommended on the net are:
"Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" Roger Bate, Donald Mueller, Jerry White
1971, Dover Press, 455pp $8.95 (US) (paperback). ISBN 0-486-60061-0
NASA Spaceflight handbooks (dating from the 1960s)
SP-33 Orbital Flight Handbook (3 parts)
SP-34 Lunar Flight Handbook (3 parts)
SP-35 Planetary Flight Handbook (9 parts)
These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
through the US Govt. Printing Office (GPO), although more
information would probably be needed to order them.
M. A. Minovitch, _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
Attractions_, Technical Report 32-464, Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
Pasadena, Calif., Oct, 1963.
The title says all. Starts of with the basics and works its way up.
Very good. It has a companion article:
M. Minovitch, _Utilizing Large Planetary Perubations for the Design of
Deep-Space Solar-Probe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_, Technical
Report 32-849, JPL, Pasadena, Calif., 1965.
You need to read the first one first to realy understand this one.
It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second.
Contact JPL for availability of these reports.
"Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics", Peter C. Hughes 1986, John Wiley and
Sons.
"Celestial Mechanics: a computational guide for the practitioner",
Lawrence G. Taff, (Wiley-Interscience, New York, 1985).
Starts with the basics (2-body problem, coordinates) and works up to
orbit determinations, perturbations, and differential corrections.
Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
discussion of n-body problems.
COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS
More net references:
Van Flandern & Pullinen, _Low-Precision Formulae for Planetary
Positions_, Astrophysical J. Supp Series, 41:391-411, 1979. Look in an
astronomy or physics library for this; also said to be available from
Willmann-Bell.
Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.
_Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
#PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.
_Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates
1800-2049.
"Planetary Programs and Tables from -4000 to +2800", Bretagnon & Simon
1986, Willmann-Bell.
Floppy disks available separately.
"Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics" (2nd ed), J.M.A. Danby 1988,
Willmann-Bell.
A good fundamental text. Includes BASIC programs; a companion set of
floppy disks is available separately.
"Astronomical Formulae for Calculators" (4th ed.), J. Meeus 1988,
Willmann-Bell.
"Astronomical Algorithms", J. Meeus 1991, Willmann-Bell.
If you actively use one of the editions of "Astronomical Formulae
for Calculators", you will want to replace it with "Astronomical
Algorithms". This new book is more oriented towards computers than
calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the U.S. Naval
Observatory, and the Bureau des Longitudes. The previous books were
all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century.
Algorithms available separately on diskette.
"Practical Astronomy with your Calculator" (3rd ed.), P. Duffett-Smith
1988, Cambridge University Press.
"Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer", D. Tattersfield 1984,
Stanley Thornes, Ltd.
Includes example programs in BASIC.
"Orbits for Amateurs II", D. Tattersfield 1987, John Wiley & Sons.
"Astronomy / Scientific Software" - catalog of shareware, public domain,
and commercial software for IBM and other PCs. Astronomy software
includes planetarium simulations, ephemeris generators, astronomical
databases, solar system simulations, satellite tracking programs,
celestial mechanics simulators, and more.
Andromeda Software, Inc.
P.O. Box 605
Amherst, NY 14226-0605
COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTH-IMPACTING ASTEROIDS
Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula, based on
studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests.
(1/3.4)
D = S S c K W : crater diameter in km
g p f n
(1/6)
S = (g /g ) : gravity correction factor for bodies other than
g e t Earth, where g = 9.8 m/s^2 and g is the surface
e t
gravity of the target body. This scaling is
cited for lunar craters and may hold true for
other bodies.
(1/3.4)
S = (p / p ) : correction factor for target density p ,
p a t t
p = 1.8 g/cm^3 for alluvium at the Jangle U
a
crater site, p = 2.6 g/cm^3 for average
rock on the continental shields.
C : crater collapse factor, 1 for craters <= 3 km
in diameter, 1.3 for larger craters (on Earth).
(1/3.4)
K : .074 km / (kT TNT equivalent)
n empirically determined from the Jangle U
nuclear test crater.
3 2 19
W = pi * d * delta * V / (12 * 4.185 * 10 )
: projectile kinetic energy in kT TNT equivalent
given diameter d, velocity v, and projectile
density delta in CGS units. delta of around 3
g/cm^3 is fairly good for an asteroid.
An RMS velocity of V = 20 km/sec may be used for Earth-crossing
asteroids.
Under these assumptions, the body which created the Barringer Meteor
Crater in Arizona (1.13 km diameter) would have been about 40 meters in
diameter.
More generally, one can use (after Gehrels, 1985):
Asteroid Number of objects Impact probability Impact energy
diameter (km) (impacts/year) (* 5*10^20 ergs)
10 10 10^-8 10^9
1 1 000 10^-6 10^6
0.1 100 000 10^-4 10^3
assuming simple scaling laws. Note that 5*10^20 ergs = 13 000 tons TNT
equivalent, or the energy released by the Hiroshima A-bomb.
References:
Gehrels, T. 1985 Asteroids and comets. _Physics Today_ 38, 32-41. [an
excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]
Shoemaker, E.M. 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth. _Ann.
Rev. Earth Planet. Sci._ 11, 461-494. [very long and fairly
technical but a comprehensive examination of the
subject]
Shoemaker, E.M., J.G. Williams, E.F. Helin & R.F. Wolfe 1979
Earth-crossing asteroids: Orbital classes, collision rates with
Earth, and origin. In _Asteroids_, T. Gehrels, ed., pp. 253-282,
University of Arizona Press, Tucson.
Cunningham, C.J. 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids: The Next Frontier_
(Richmond: Willman-Bell, Inc.) [covers all aspects of asteroid
studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
of all experience levels. It also has a very extensive reference
list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
field.]
MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY
Two easy-to-find sources of map projections are the "Encyclopaedia
Brittanica", (particularly the older volumes) and a tutorial appearing
in _Graphics Gems_ (Academic Press, 1990). The latter was written with
simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind
(spherical trig formulae also appear, as do digitally-plotted examples).
More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
Snyder's USGS publication "Map Projections--A Working Manual", USGS
Professional Paper 1395. This contains detailed descriptions of 32
projections, with history, features, projection formulas (for both
spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth), and numerical test cases. It's a
neat book, all 382 pages worth. This one's $20.
You might also want the companion volume, by Snyder and Philip Voxland,
"An Album of Map Projections", USGS Professional Paper 1453. This
contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants. Formulas are
in the back, example plots in the front. $14, 250 pages.
You can order these 2 ways. The cheap, slow way is direct from USGS:
Earth Science Information Center, US Geological Survey, 507 National
Center, Reston, VA 22092. (800)-USA-MAPS. They can quote you a price and
tell you where to send your money. Expect a 6-8 week turnaround time.
A much faster way (about 1 week) is through Timely Discount Topos,
(303)-469-5022, 9769 W. 119th Drive, Suite 9, Broomfield, CO 80021. Call
them and tell them what you want. They'll quote a price, you send a
check, and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
for you. Add about a $3-4 service charge, plus shipping.
A (perhaps more accessible) mapping article is:
R. Miller and F. Reddy, "Mapping the World in Pascal",
Byte V12 #14, December 1987
Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections. A
demo program, CARTOG.PAS, and a small (6,000 point) coastline data
is available on CompuServe, GEnie, and many BBSs.
Some references for spherical trignometry are:
_Spherical Astronomy_, W.M. Smart, Cambridge U. Press, 1931.
_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_, S. Newcomb, Dover, 1960.
_Spherical Astronomy_, R.M. Green, Cambridge U. Press., 1985 (update
of Smart).
_Spherical Astronomy_, E Woolard and G.Clemence, Academic
Press, 1966.
PERFORMING N-BODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY
"Computer Simulation Using Particles"
R. W. Hockney and J. W. Eastwood
(Adam Hilger; Bristol and Philadelphia; 1988)
"The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems",
L. Greengard
MIT Press, 1988.
A breakthrough O(N) simulation method. Has been parallelized.
L. Greengard and V. Rokhlin, "A fast algorithm for particle
simulations," Journal of Computational Physics, 73:325-348, 1987.
"An O(N) Algorithm for Three-dimensional N-body Simulations", MSEE
thesis, Feng Zhao, MIT AILab Technical Report 995, 1987
"Galactic Dynamics"
J. Binney & S. Tremaine
(Princeton U. Press; Princeton; 1987)
Includes an O(N^2) FORTRAN code written by Aarseth, a pioneer in
the field.
Hierarchical (N log N) tree methods are described in these papers:
A. W. Appel, "An Efficient Program for Many-body Simulation", SIAM
Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing, Vol. 6, p. 85,
1985.
Barnes & Hut, "A Hierarchical O(N log N) Force-Calculation
Algorithm", Nature, V324 # 6096, 4-10 Dec 1986.
L. Hernquist, "Hierarchical N-body Methods", Computer Physics
Communications, Vol. 48, p. 107, 1988.
INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT
If you just need to examine FITS images, use the ppm package (see the
comp.graphics FAQ) to convert them to your preferred format. For more
information on the format and other software to read and write it, see
the sci.astro.fits FAQ.
SKY (UNIX EPHEMERIS PROGRAM)
The 6th Edition of the Unix operating system came with several software
systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations.
Included were an ephmeris, a satellite track, and speech synthesis
software. The ephmeris, sky(6), is available within AT&T and to sites
possessing a Unix source code license. The program is regarded as Unix
source code. Sky is <0.5MB. Send proof of source code license to
E. Miya
MS 258-5
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
THREE-DIMENSIONAL STAR/GALAXY COORDINATES
To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects, first obtain an
astronomical database which specifies right ascension, declination, and
parallax for the objects. Convert parallax into distance using the
formula in part 6 of the FAQ, convert RA and declination to coordinates
on a unit sphere (see some of the references on planetary positions and
spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this), and
scale this by the distance.
Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
(sources listed in FAQ section 3) or "The Catalogue of Stars within 25
parsecs of the Sun" (in pub/SPACE/FAQ/stars.data and stars.doc on
ames.arc.nasa.gov).
NEXT: FAQ #5/15 - References on specific areas
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0415 Calculations
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 334
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195603 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spacemath
Lastmodified Date 930401 143912
PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS
COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES
References that have been frequently recommended on the net are
Fundamentals of Astrodynamics Roger Bate Donald Mueller Jerry White
1971 Dover Press 455pp 895 US paperback ISBN 0486600610
NASA Spaceflight handbooks dating from the 1960s
SP33 Orbital Flight Handbook 3 parts
SP34 Lunar Flight Handbook 3 parts
SP35 Planetary Flight Handbook 9 parts
These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
through the US Govt Printing Office GPO although more
information would probably be needed to order them
M A Minovitch _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
Attractions_ Technical Report 32464 Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Pasadena Calif Oct 1963
The title says all Starts of with the basics and works its way up
Very good It has a companion article
M Minovitch _Utilizing Large Planetary Perubations for the Design of
DeepSpace SolarProbe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_ Technical
Report 32849 JPL Pasadena Calif 1965
You need to read the first one first to realy understand this one
It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second
Contact JPL for availability of these reports
Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics Peter C Hughes 1986 John Wiley and
Sons
Celestial Mechanics a computational guide for the practitioner
Lawrence G Taff WileyInterscience New York 1985
Starts with the basics 2body problem coordinates and works up to
orbit determinations perturbations and differential corrections
Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
discussion of nbody problems
COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS
More net references
Van Flandern Pullinen _LowPrecision Formulae for Planetary
Positions_ Astrophysical J Supp Series 41391411 1979 Look in an
astronomy or physics library for this also said to be available from
WillmannBell
Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
period or 300 years from now Pluto is included but stated to
have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes
_Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ MICA produced by the US
Naval Observatory Valid for years 19901999 55 80 outside US
Available for IBM order PB93500163HDV or Macintosh order
PB93500155HDV From the NTIS sales desk 7034874650 I believe
this is intended to replace the USNOs Interactive Computer Ephemeris
_Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ from the US Naval Observatory
distributed on IBMPC floppy disks 35 WillmannBell Covers dates
18002049
Planetary Programs and Tables from 4000 to 2800 Bretagnon Simon
1986 WillmannBell
Floppy disks available separately
Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics 2nd ed JMA Danby 1988
WillmannBell
A good fundamental text Includes BASIC programs a companion set of
floppy disks is available separately
Astronomical Formulae for Calculators 4th ed J Meeus 1988
WillmannBell
Astronomical Algorithms J Meeus 1991 WillmannBell
If you actively use one of the editions of Astronomical Formulae
for Calculators you will want to replace it with Astronomical
Algorithms This new book is more oriented towards computers than
calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory the US Naval
Observatory and the Bureau des Longitudes The previous books were
all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century
Algorithms available separately on diskette
Practical Astronomy with your Calculator 3rd ed P DuffettSmith
1988 Cambridge University Press
Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer D Tattersfield 1984
Stanley Thornes Ltd
Includes example programs in BASIC
Orbits for Amateurs II D Tattersfield 1987 John Wiley Sons
Astronomy Scientific Software catalog of shareware public domain
and commercial software for IBM and other PCs Astronomy software
includes planetarium simulations ephemeris generators astronomical
databases solar system simulations satellite tracking programs
celestial mechanics simulators and more
Andromeda Software Inc
PO Box 605
Amherst NY 142260605
COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTHIMPACTING ASTEROIDS
Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula based on
studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests
134
D S S c K W crater diameter in km
g p f n
16
S g g gravity correction factor for bodies other than
g e t Earth where g 98 ms^2 and g is the surface
e t
gravity of the target body This scaling is
cited for lunar craters and may hold true for
other bodies
134
S p p correction factor for target density p
p a t t
p 18 gcm^3 for alluvium at the Jangle U
a
crater site p 26 gcm^3 for average
rock on the continental shields
C crater collapse factor 1 for craters 3 km
in diameter 13 for larger craters on Earth
134
K 074 km kT TNT equivalent
n empirically determined from the Jangle U
nuclear test crater
3 2 19
W pi d delta V 12 4185 10
projectile kinetic energy in kT TNT equivalent
given diameter d velocity v and projectile
density delta in CGS units delta of around 3
gcm^3 is fairly good for an asteroid
An RMS velocity of V 20 kmsec may be used for Earthcrossing
asteroids
Under these assumptions the body which created the Barringer Meteor
Crater in Arizona 113 km diameter would have been about 40 meters in
diameter
More generally one can use after Gehrels 1985
Asteroid Number of objects Impact probability Impact energy
diameter km impactsyear 510^20 ergs
10 10 10^8 10^9
1 1 000 10^6 10^6
01 100 000 10^4 10^3
assuming simple scaling laws Note that 510^20 ergs 13 000 tons TNT
equivalent or the energy released by the Hiroshima Abomb
References
Gehrels T 1985 Asteroids and comets _Physics Today_ 38 3241 [an
excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]
Shoemaker EM 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth _Ann
Rev Earth Planet Sci_ 11 461494 [very long and fairly
technical but a comprehensive examination of the
subject]
Shoemaker EM JG Williams EF Helin RF Wolfe 1979
Earthcrossing asteroids Orbital classes collision rates with
Earth and origin In _Asteroids_ T Gehrels ed pp 253282
University of Arizona Press Tucson
Cunningham CJ 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids The Next Frontier_
Richmond WillmanBell Inc [covers all aspects of asteroid
studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
of all experience levels It also has a very extensive reference
list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
field]
MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY
Two easytofind sources of map projections are the Encyclopaedia
Brittanica particularly the older volumes and a tutorial appearing
in _Graphics Gems_ Academic Press 1990 The latter was written with
simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind
spherical trig formulae also appear as do digitallyplotted examples
More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
Snyders USGS publication Map ProjectionsA Working Manual USGS
Professional Paper 1395 This contains detailed descriptions of 32
projections with history features projection formulas for both
spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth and numerical test cases Its a
neat book all 382 pages worth This ones 20
You might also want the companion volume by Snyder and Philip Voxland
An Album of Map Projections USGS Professional Paper 1453 This
contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants Formulas are
in the back example plots in the front 14 250 pages
You can order these 2 ways The cheap slow way is direct from USGS
Earth Science Information Center US Geological Survey 507 National
Center Reston VA 22092 800USAMAPS They can quote you a price and
tell you where to send your money Expect a 68 week turnaround time
A much faster way about 1 week is through Timely Discount Topos
3034695022 9769 W 119th Drive Suite 9 Broomfield CO 80021 Call
them and tell them what you want Theyll quote a price you send a
check and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
for you Add about a 34 service charge plus shipping
A perhaps more accessible mapping article is
R Miller and F Reddy Mapping the World in Pascal
Byte V12 14 December 1987
Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections A
demo program CARTOGPAS and a small 6000 point coastline data
is available on CompuServe GEnie and many BBSs
Some references for spherical trignometry are
_Spherical Astronomy_ WM Smart Cambridge U Press 1931
_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_ S Newcomb Dover 1960
_Spherical Astronomy_ RM Green Cambridge U Press 1985 update
of Smart
_Spherical Astronomy_ E Woolard and GClemence Academic
Press 1966
PERFORMING NBODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY
Computer Simulation Using Particles
R W Hockney and J W Eastwood
Adam Hilger Bristol and Philadelphia 1988
The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems
L Greengard
MIT Press 1988
A breakthrough ON simulation method Has been parallelized
L Greengard and V Rokhlin A fast algorithm for particle
simulations Journal of Computational Physics 73325348 1987
An ON Algorithm for Threedimensional Nbody Simulations MSEE
thesis Feng Zhao MIT AILab Technical Report 995 1987
Galactic Dynamics
J Binney S Tremaine
Princeton U Press Princeton 1987
Includes an ON^2 FORTRAN code written by Aarseth a pioneer in
the field
Hierarchical N log N tree methods are described in these papers
A W Appel An Efficient Program for Manybody Simulation SIAM
Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing Vol 6 p 85
1985
Barnes Hut A Hierarchical ON log N ForceCalculation
Algorithm Nature V324 6096 410 Dec 1986
L Hernquist Hierarchical Nbody Methods Computer Physics
Communications Vol 48 p 107 1988
INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT
If you just need to examine FITS images use the ppm package see the
compgraphics FAQ to convert them to your preferred format For more
information on the format and other software to read and write it see
the sciastrofits FAQ
SKY UNIX EPHEMERIS PROGRAM
The 6th Edition of the Unix operating system came with several software
systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations
Included were an ephmeris a satellite track and speech synthesis
software The ephmeris sky6 is available within ATT and to sites
possessing a Unix source code license The program is regarded as Unix
source code Sky is 05MB Send proof of source code license to
E Miya
MS 2585
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field CA 940351000
eugeneorvillenasnasagov
THREEDIMENSIONAL STARGALAXY COORDINATES
To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects first obtain an
astronomical database which specifies right ascension declination and
parallax for the objects Convert parallax into distance using the
formula in part 6 of the FAQ convert RA and declination to coordinates
on a unit sphere see some of the references on planetary positions and
spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this and
scale this by the distance
Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
sources listed in FAQ section 3 or The Catalogue of Stars within 25
parsecs of the Sun in pubSPACEFAQstarsdata and starsdoc on
amesarcnasagov
NEXT FAQ 515 References on specific areas
preprocess doc From: mwm+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Maimone)
Subject: How to read sci.space without netnews
Summary: Space Digest address
Nntp-Posting-Host: a.gp.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 36
In article <734975852.F00001@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
>but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
>feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.
Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts: Space Digest.
It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.
TO SUBSCRIBE:
Send the following message in the *body* (not subject) of an
email message:
subscribe space John Q Public
to one of these addresses:
listserv@uga
listserv@uga.cc.uga.edu
listserv@finhutc
listserv@finhuc.hut.fi
space-request@isu.isunet.edu
You'll receive all the posts in "digest" form once a day. Please
use a listserv if you can, the "space-request" address is handled
manually.
TO POST MESSAGES:
Send your message (with a reasonable Subject line) to:
space@isu.isunet.edu
Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu
--
Mark Maimone phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science email: mwm@cmu.edu
after prepro From mwmcscmuedu Mark Maimone
Subject How to read scispace without netnews
Summary Space Digest address
NntpPostingHost agpcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon
Lines 36
In article 734975852F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them
Kudos to Mark for his generous offer but there already exists a
large emailbased forwarding system for scispace posts Space Digest
It mirrors scispace exactly and provides simple twoway communication
TO SUBSCRIBE
Send the following message in the body not subject of an
email message
subscribe space John Q Public
to one of these addresses
listservuga
listservugaccugaedu
listservfinhutc
listservfinhuchutfi
spacerequestisuisunetedu
Youll receive all the posts in digest form once a day Please
use a listserv if you can the spacerequest address is handled
manually
TO POST MESSAGES
Send your message with a reasonable Subject line to
spaceisuisunetedu
Questions comments to spacerequestisuisunetedu
Mark Maimone phone 1 412 268 7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science email mwmcmuedu
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 43
Jon Livesey writes:
>So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had "different
>versions" of some OT texts. Did I misunderstand?
Reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in
the world. Newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of
religion, and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a "real"
story (that is, a bigger headline).
Let's back up to 1935. At this point, we have the Masoretic text, the
various targums (translations/commentaries in aramaic, etc.), and the
Septuagint, the ancient greek translation. The Masoretic text is the
standard Jewish text and essentially does not vary. In some places it has
obvious corruptions, all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy.
These passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and
to the Septuagint.
Now, the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars:
first, it includes additional texts, and second, in some passages there are
variant readings from the masoretic text (in addition to "fixing"/predating
the various corrupted passages). It must be emphasized that, to the best of
my knowledge, these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars, and
have little theological import.
The dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient *copy* of almost all of
Isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other OT books. There
is also an abundance of other material, but as far as I know, there is no
sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha (the extra texts in the
septuagint). As far as analysis has proceeded, there are also variations
between the DSS texts and the masoretic versions. These tend to reflect the
septuagint, where the latter isn't obviously in error. Again, though, the
differences (thus far) are not significant theologically. There is this big
expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the
material, but so far this hasn't happened.
The DSS *are* important because there is almost no textual tradition in the
OT, unlike for the NT.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization U of Maryland Dept of Computer Science Coll Pk MD 20742
Lines 43
Jon Livesey writes
So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had different
versions of some OT texts Did I misunderstand
Reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in
the world Newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of
religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real
story that is a bigger headline
Lets back up to 1935 At this point we have the Masoretic text the
various targums translationscommentaries in aramaic etc and the
Septuagint the ancient greek translation The Masoretic text is the
standard Jewish text and essentially does not vary In some places it has
obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy
These passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and
to the Septuagint
Now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars
first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are
variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixingpredating
the various corrupted passages It must be emphasized that to the best of
my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and
have little theological import
The dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of
Isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other OT books There
is also an abundance of other material but as far as I know there is no
sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the
septuagint As far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations
between the DSS texts and the masoretic versions These tend to reflect the
septuagint where the latter isnt obviously in error Again though the
differences thus far are not significant theologically There is this big
expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the
material but so far this hasnt happened
The DSS are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the
OT unlike for the NT
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 11
In article <1993Apr16.211458.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
(deletion)
>Nope, Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws. The
>ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
>automatically become citizens if they move to Germany, but the
>Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany can't.
That's wrong. They can.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 11
In article 1993Apr162114581eaglewesleyanedu
kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu writes
deletion
Nope Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws The
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany cant
Thats wrong They can
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Lines: 28
In article <C5L184.Jo9@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
writes:
>In <1qlapk$d7v@morrow.stanford.edu> salem@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Bruce Salem)
>writes:
>>In article <C5JrDE.M4z@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
>Cobb) writes:
>>>Theory of Creationism: MY theistic view of the theory of creationism, (there
>>>are many others) is stated in Genesis 1. In the beginning God created
>>>the heavens and the earth.
>
>> Wonderful, now try alittle imaginative thinking!
>
>Huh? Imaginative thinking? What did that have to do with what I said? Would it
>have been better if I said the world has existed forever and never was created
>and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of
>life from non-life? WOuld that make me all-wise, and knowing, and
imaginative?
No, but at least it would be a theory.
| __L__
-|- ___ Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
| | o | kv07@iastate.edu
|/ `---' Iowa State University
/| ___ Math Department
| |___| 400 Carver Hall
| |___| Ames, IA 50011
J _____
after prepro From kv07IASTATEEDU Warren Vonroeschlaub
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
ReplyTo kv07IASTATEEDU Warren Vonroeschlaub
Organization Ministry of Silly Walks
Lines 28
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
writes
In 1qlapkd7vmorrowstanfordedu salempangeaStanfordEDU Bruce Salem
writes
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes
Theory of Creationism MY theistic view of the theory of creationism there
are many others is stated in Genesis 1 In the beginning God created
the heavens and the earth
Wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking
Huh Imaginative thinking What did that have to do with what I said Would it
have been better if I said the world has existed forever and never was created
and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of
life from nonlife WOuld that make me allwise and knowing and
imaginative
No but at least it would be a theory
__L__
___ Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
o kv07iastateedu
` Iowa State University
___ Math Department
___ 400 Carver Hall
___ Ames IA 50011
J _____
preprocess doc From: drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: So I'm an idiot, what else is new?
Originator: drickel@bounce
Nntp-Posting-Host: bounce.mentorg.com
Organization: Mentor Graphics
Keywords:
Lines: 17
In article <9303311213.AA49462@jsc.nasa.gov>, mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu (R. E. McElwaine) writes:
|> RUSSIA'S OPERATIVE
|>
|> In March 1993, Russian President Boris Yeltsin
|> proposed to the United States and the United Nations a global
|> defense shield (with "Star Wars"-type weapons) AGAINST
...
Funny. A bit disturbing. Forging a posting seems somewhat unethical, even
if the subject is as notorious as McElwaine.
Followups should definitely not go to sci.space.
david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com
after prepro From drickelbouncementorgcom Dave Rickel
Subject Re So Im an idiot what else is new
Originator drickelbounce
NntpPostingHost bouncementorgcom
Organization Mentor Graphics
Keywords
Lines 17
In article 9303311213AA49462jscnasagov mcelwrecnsvaxuwecedu R E McElwaine writes
RUSSIAS OPERATIVE
In March 1993 Russian President Boris Yeltsin
proposed to the United States and the United Nations a global
defense shield with Star Warstype weapons AGAINST
Funny A bit disturbing Forging a posting seems somewhat unethical even
if the subject is as notorious as McElwaine
Followups should definitely not go to scispace
david rickel
drickelsjcmentorgcom
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr21.150545.24058@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
|In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
|
|
|In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
|cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
|is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
|base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
|much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
|range.
>
Alan,
don't forget, a HUGE cost for airliner developement is FAA
certification. the joke is when the paperwork exceeds teh weight
of the airplane, it will fly.
The SR-71, and teh X-15 both highly ambitious aero-space projects were done
on very narrow engineering budgets. Partly because they didn't spend much
on paper pushing. There is some company in missouri trying to
get funding to build light commercial transporters on a low cost basis,
mostly by reducing FAA certification costs.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr2115054524058itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
range
Alan
dont forget a HUGE cost for airliner developement is FAA
certification the joke is when the paperwork exceeds teh weight
of the airplane it will fly
The SR71 and teh X15 both highly ambitious aerospace projects were done
on very narrow engineering budgets Partly because they didnt spend much
on paper pushing There is some company in missouri trying to
get funding to build light commercial transporters on a low cost basis
mostly by reducing FAA certification costs
pat
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 18
Kent Sandvik (sandvik@newton.apple.com) wrote:
: In article <11838@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert
: Beauchaine) wrote:
: > Someone spank me if I'm wrong, but didn't Lord, Liar, or Lunatic
: > originate with C.S. Lewis? Who's this Campollo fellow anyway?
: I do think so, and isn't there a clear connection with the "I do
: believe, because it is absurd" notion by one of the original
: Christians (Origen?).
There is a similar statement attributed to Anselm, "I believe so that
I may understand". In both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than
anyone posting here could accept, which means that neither statement
can be properly analysed in this venue.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re some thoughts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 18
Kent Sandvik sandviknewtonapplecom wrote
In article 11838viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert
Beauchaine wrote
Someone spank me if Im wrong but didnt Lord Liar or Lunatic
originate with CS Lewis Whos this Campollo fellow anyway
I do think so and isnt there a clear connection with the I do
believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original
Christians Origen
There is a similar statement attributed to Anselm I believe so that
I may understand In both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than
anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement
can be properly analysed in this venue
Bill
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: sci
Lines: 33
In <C5sy4s.4x2.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:
>Nick Haines sez;
>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
>>maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).
>Level 5? Out of how many? What are the different levels? I've never
>heard of this rating system. Anyone care to clue me in?
SEI Level 5 (the highest level -- the SEI stands for Software
Engineering Institute). I'm not sure, but I believe that this rating
only applies to the flight software. Also keep in mind that it was
*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand. I would not consider receiving a 'Warning'
status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much (if
anything) from such a rating -- I'll have to get the latest copy of
the guidelines to make sure (they just issued new ones, I think).
Also keep in mind that the SEI levels are concerned primarily with
control of the software process; the assumption is that a
well controlled process will produce good software. Also keep in mind
that SEI Level 5 is DAMNED HARD. Most software in this country is
produced by 'engineering practicies' that only rate an SEI Level 1 (if
that).
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution sci
Lines 33
In 18084TMmsuedu Tom writes
Nick Haines sez
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case
Level 5 Out of how many What are the different levels Ive never
heard of this rating system Anyone care to clue me in
SEI Level 5 the highest level the SEI stands for Software
Engineering Institute Im not sure but I believe that this rating
only applies to the flight software Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand I would not consider receiving a Warning
status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much if
anything from such a rating Ill have to get the latest copy of
the guidelines to make sure they just issued new ones I think
Also keep in mind that the SEI levels are concerned primarily with
control of the software process the assumption is that a
well controlled process will produce good software Also keep in mind
that SEI Level 5 is DAMNED HARD Most software in this country is
produced by engineering practicies that only rate an SEI Level 1 if
that
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 56
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: prb@access.digex.com's message of 23 Apr 1993 23:58:19 -0400
In article <1radsr$att@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?
Their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution,
crudely speaking, indicates we're seeing an edge to the distribution.
Given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by?
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges?
Now, in the good old days before GRO data, it was thought the
gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy, it was expected that
GRO would confirm this by either showing they were a local population
(within a few hundred light years) or that they were in the galactic
halo. (Mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed)
(also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was
probably in the LMC, suggesting theorists might be wrong back then...)
As the Sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo
population should show anisotropy (a local disk population is
ruled out completely at this stage) - to avoid the anisotropy you
have to push the halo out, the energy then gets large, the mechanism
of getting NS out that far becomes questionable, and we should start
to see for example the Andromeda's bursters.
The data is consistent with either a Oort cloud distribution
(but only just) - but no one can think of a plausible source with
the right spectrum. Or, it can be a cosmological distances (hence
isotropy) and the edge is "the edge of the Universe" ;-)
If at cosmological distances you need very high energy (to detect)
and a very compact source (for spectrum), ergo a neutron star
colliding with another neutron star or black hole. Even then getting
the spectrum is very hard, but conceivable.
If we know anything about physics at that level,
the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic
strings, wrong spectrum for one thing.
The situation is further complicated by recent claims that
there are two classes of sources ;-) [in the colliding NS
they'd actually probably fit relatively easily into the
NS-NS and NS-BH collision scenarios respectively]
my own pet theory is that it's Flying saucers entering
hyperspace :-)
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in.
If you can think of one, remember to invite me to Stockholm...
* Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" *
* The laws of gravity are very,very strict *
* And you're just bending them for your own benefit - B.B. 1988*
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 56
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto prbaccessdigexcoms message of 23 Apr 1993 235819 0400
In article 1radsrattaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away
Their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution
crudely speaking indicates were seeing an edge to the distribution
Given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges
Now in the good old days before GRO data it was thought the
gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy it was expected that
GRO would confirm this by either showing they were a local population
within a few hundred light years or that they were in the galactic
halo Mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed
also to be fair it was noted that the _brightest_ burster was
probably in the LMC suggesting theorists might be wrong back then
As the Sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo
population should show anisotropy a local disk population is
ruled out completely at this stage to avoid the anisotropy you
have to push the halo out the energy then gets large the mechanism
of getting NS out that far becomes questionable and we should start
to see for example the Andromedas bursters
The data is consistent with either a Oort cloud distribution
but only just but no one can think of a plausible source with
the right spectrum Or it can be a cosmological distances hence
isotropy and the edge is the edge of the Universe
If at cosmological distances you need very high energy to detect
and a very compact source for spectrum ergo a neutron star
colliding with another neutron star or black hole Even then getting
the spectrum is very hard but conceivable
If we know anything about physics at that level
the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic
strings wrong spectrum for one thing
The situation is further complicated by recent claims that
there are two classes of sources [in the colliding NS
theyd actually probably fit relatively easily into the
NSNS and NSBH collision scenarios respectively]
my own pet theory is that its Flying saucers entering
hyperspace
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in
If you can think of one remember to invite me to Stockholm
Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory
steinlylickucscedu standard disclaimer
The laws of gravity are veryvery strict
And youre just bending them for your own benefit BB 1988
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 11/15 - Upcoming Planetary Probes
Supersedes: <new_probes_730956574@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 243
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:00:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/new_probes
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:17 $
UPCOMING PLANETARY PROBES - MISSIONS AND SCHEDULES
Information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below
would be welcome. Sources: NASA fact sheets, Cassini Mission Design
team, ISAS/NASDA launch schedules, press kits.
ASUKA (ASTRO-D) - ISAS (Japan) X-ray astronomy satellite, launched into
Earth orbit on 2/20/93. Equipped with large-area wide-wavelength (1-20
Angstrom) X-ray telescope, X-ray CCD cameras, and imaging gas
scintillation proportional counters.
CASSINI - Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe. Cassini is a joint
NASA/ESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe. Cassini
is scheduled for launch aboard a Titan IV/Centaur in October of 1997.
After gravity assists of Venus, Earth and Jupiter in a VVEJGA
trajectory, the spacecraft will arrive at Saturn in June of 2004. Upon
arrival, the Cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an
orbit around Saturn. Near the end of this initial orbit, the Huygens
Probe separates from the Orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of
Titan. The Orbiter relays the Probe data to Earth for about 3 hours
while the Probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the
surface. After the completion of the Probe mission, the Orbiter
continues touring the Saturnian system for three and a half years. Titan
synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about 35 flybys of Titan and
targeted flybys of Iapetus, Dione and Enceladus. The objectives of the
mission are threefold: conduct detailed studies of Saturn's atmosphere,
rings and magnetosphere; conduct close-up studies of Saturn's
satellites, and characterize Titan's atmosphere and surface.
One of the most intriguing aspects of Titan is the possibility that its
surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that
result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere. These
hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain
down onto the surface. The Cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to
peer through Titan's clouds and determine if there is liquid on the
surface. Experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will
investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere.
The Cassini mission is named for Jean Dominique Cassini (1625-1712), the
first director of the Paris Observatory, who discovered several of
Saturn's satellites and the major division in its rings. The Titan
atmospheric entry probe is named for the Dutch physicist Christiaan
Huygens (1629-1695), who discovered Titan and first described the true
nature of Saturn's rings.
Key Scheduled Dates for the Cassini Mission (VVEJGA Trajectory)
-------------------------------------------------------------
10/06/97 - Titan IV/Centaur Launch
04/21/98 - Venus 1 Gravity Assist
06/20/99 - Venus 2 Gravity Assist
08/16/99 - Earth Gravity Assist
12/30/00 - Jupiter Gravity Assist
06/25/04 - Saturn Arrival
01/09/05 - Titan Probe Release
01/30/05 - Titan Probe Entry
06/25/08 - End of Primary Mission
(Schedule last updated 7/22/92)
GALILEO - Jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe, in transit. Has returned
the first resolved images of an asteroid, Gaspra, while in transit to
Jupiter. Efforts to unfurl the stuck High-Gain Antenna (HGA) have
essentially been abandoned. JPL has developed a backup plan using data
compression (JPEG-like for images, lossless compression for data from
the other instruments) which should allow the mission to achieve
approximately 70% of its original objectives.
Galileo Schedule
----------------
10/18/89 - Launch from Space Shuttle
02/09/90 - Venus Flyby
10/**/90 - Venus Data Playback
12/08/90 - 1st Earth Flyby
05/01/91 - High Gain Antenna Unfurled
07/91 - 06/92 - 1st Asteroid Belt Passage
10/29/91 - Asteroid Gaspra Flyby
12/08/92 - 2nd Earth Flyby
05/93 - 11/93 - 2nd Asteroid Belt Passage
08/28/93 - Asteroid Ida Flyby
07/02/95 - Probe Separation
07/09/95 - Orbiter Deflection Maneuver
12/95 - 10/97 - Orbital Tour of Jovian Moons
12/07/95 - Jupiter/Io Encounter
07/18/96 - Ganymede
09/28/96 - Ganymede
12/12/96 - Callisto
01/23/97 - Europa
02/28/97 - Ganymede
04/22/97 - Europa
05/31/97 - Europa
10/05/97 - Jupiter Magnetotail Exploration
HITEN - Japanese (ISAS) lunar probe launched 1/24/90. Has made
multiple lunar flybys. Released Hagoromo, a smaller satellite,
into lunar orbit. This mission made Japan the third nation to
orbit a satellite around the Moon.
MAGELLAN - Venus radar mapping mission. Has mapped almost the entire
surface at high resolution. Currently (4/93) collecting a global gravity
map.
MARS OBSERVER - Mars orbiter including 1.5 m/pixel resolution camera.
Launched 9/25/92 on a Titan III/TOS booster. MO is currently (4/93) in
transit to Mars, arriving on 8/24/93. Operations will start 11/93 for
one martian year (687 days).
TOPEX/Poseidon - Joint US/French Earth observing satellite, launched
8/10/92 on an Ariane 4 booster. The primary objective of the
TOPEX/POSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years, substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics. The satellite also
will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean.
ULYSSES- European Space Agency probe to study the Sun from an orbit over
its poles. Launched in late 1990, it carries particles-and-fields
experiments (such as magnetometer, ion and electron collectors for
various energy ranges, plasma wave radio receivers, etc.) but no camera.
Since no human-built rocket is hefty enough to send Ulysses far out of
the ecliptic plane, it went to Jupiter instead, and stole energy from
that planet by sliding over Jupiter's north pole in a gravity-assist
manuver in February 1992. This bent its path into a solar orbit tilted
about 85 degrees to the ecliptic. It will pass over the Sun's south pole
in the summer of 1993. Its aphelion is 5.2 AU, and, surprisingly, its
perihelion is about 1.5 AU-- that's right, a solar-studies spacecraft
that's always further from the Sun than the Earth is!
While in Jupiter's neigborhood, Ulysses studied the magnetic and
radiation environment. For a short summary of these results, see
*Science*, V. 257, p. 1487-1489 (11 September 1992). For gory technical
detail, see the many articles in the same issue.
OTHER SPACE SCIENCE MISSIONS (note: this is based on a posting by Ron
Baalke in 11/89, with ISAS/NASDA information contributed by Yoshiro
Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp). I'm attempting to track changes based
on updated shuttle manifests; corrections and updates are welcome.
1993 Missions
o ALEXIS [spring, Pegasus]
ALEXIS (Array of Low-Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors) is to perform
a wide-field sky survey in the "soft" (low-energy) X-ray
spectrum. It will scan the entire sky every six months to search
for variations in soft-X-ray emission from sources such as white
dwarfs, cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars. It will also
search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron
stars and gamma-ray bursters. ALEXIS is a project of Los Alamos
National Laboratory and is primarily a technology development
mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the
technology. Contact project investigator Jeffrey J Bloch
(jjb@beta.lanl.gov) for more information.
o Wind [Aug, Delta II rocket]
Satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere.
o Space Radar Lab [Sep, STS-60 SRL-01]
Gather radar images of Earth's surface.
o Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [Dec, Pegasus rocket]
Study of Stratospheric ozone.
o SFU (Space Flyer Unit) [ISAS]
Conducting space experiments and observations and this can be
recovered after it conducts the various scientific and
engineering experiments. SFU is to be launched by ISAS and
retrieved by the U.S. Space Shuttle on STS-68 in 1994.
1994
o Polar Auroral Plasma Physics [May, Delta II rocket]
June, measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the
Earth.
o IML-2 (STS) [NASDA, Jul 1994 IML-02]
International Microgravity Laboratory.
o ADEOS [NASDA]
Advanced Earth Observing Satellite.
o MUSES-B (Mu Space Engineering Satellite-B) [ISAS]
Conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure
and in-space astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves.
1995
LUNAR-A [ISAS]
Elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the
moon's interior.
Proposed Missions:
o Advanced X-ray Astronomy Facility (AXAF)
Possible launch from shuttle in 1995, AXAF is a space
observatory with a high resolution telescope. It would orbit for
15 years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe.
o Earth Observing System (EOS)
Possible launch in 1997, 1 of 6 US orbiting space platforms to
provide long-term data (15 years) of Earth systems science
including planetary evolution.
o Mercury Observer
Possible 1997 launch.
o Lunar Observer
Possible 1997 launch, would be sent into a long-term lunar
orbit. The Observer, from 60 miles above the moon's poles, would
survey characteristics to provide a global context for the
results from the Apollo program.
o Space Infrared Telescope Facility
Possible launch by shuttle in 1999, this is the 4th element of
the Great Observatories program. A free-flying observatory with
a lifetime of 5 to 10 years, it would observe new comets and
other primitive bodies in the outer solar system, study cosmic
birth formation of galaxies, stars and planets and distant
infrared-emitting galaxies
o Mars Rover Sample Return (MRSR)
Robotics rover would return samples of Mars' atmosphere and
surface to Earch for analysis. Possible launch dates: 1996 for
imaging orbiter, 2001 for rover.
o Fire and Ice
Possible launch in 2001, will use a gravity assist flyby of
Earth in 2003, and use a final gravity assist from Jupiter in
2005, where the probe will split into its Fire and Ice
components: The Fire probe will journey into the Sun, taking
measurements of our star's upper atmosphere until it is
vaporized by the intense heat. The Ice probe will head out
towards Pluto, reaching the tiny world for study by 2016.
NEXT: FAQ #12/15 - Controversial questions
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1115 Upcoming Planetary Probes
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 243
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 200001 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spacenew_probes
Lastmodified Date 930401 143917
UPCOMING PLANETARY PROBES MISSIONS AND SCHEDULES
Information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below
would be welcome Sources NASA fact sheets Cassini Mission Design
team ISASNASDA launch schedules press kits
ASUKA ASTROD ISAS Japan Xray astronomy satellite launched into
Earth orbit on 22093 Equipped with largearea widewavelength 120
Angstrom Xray telescope Xray CCD cameras and imaging gas
scintillation proportional counters
CASSINI Saturn orbiter and Titan atmosphere probe Cassini is a joint
NASAESA project designed to accomplish an exploration of the Saturnian
system with its Cassini Saturn Orbiter and Huygens Titan Probe Cassini
is scheduled for launch aboard a Titan IVCentaur in October of 1997
After gravity assists of Venus Earth and Jupiter in a VVEJGA
trajectory the spacecraft will arrive at Saturn in June of 2004 Upon
arrival the Cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an
orbit around Saturn Near the end of this initial orbit the Huygens
Probe separates from the Orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of
Titan The Orbiter relays the Probe data to Earth for about 3 hours
while the Probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the
surface After the completion of the Probe mission the Orbiter
continues touring the Saturnian system for three and a half years Titan
synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about 35 flybys of Titan and
targeted flybys of Iapetus Dione and Enceladus The objectives of the
mission are threefold conduct detailed studies of Saturns atmosphere
rings and magnetosphere conduct closeup studies of Saturns
satellites and characterize Titans atmosphere and surface
One of the most intriguing aspects of Titan is the possibility that its
surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that
result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere These
hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain
down onto the surface The Cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to
peer through Titans clouds and determine if there is liquid on the
surface Experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will
investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere
The Cassini mission is named for Jean Dominique Cassini 16251712 the
first director of the Paris Observatory who discovered several of
Saturns satellites and the major division in its rings The Titan
atmospheric entry probe is named for the Dutch physicist Christiaan
Huygens 16291695 who discovered Titan and first described the true
nature of Saturns rings
Key Scheduled Dates for the Cassini Mission VVEJGA Trajectory
100697 Titan IVCentaur Launch
042198 Venus 1 Gravity Assist
062099 Venus 2 Gravity Assist
081699 Earth Gravity Assist
123000 Jupiter Gravity Assist
062504 Saturn Arrival
010905 Titan Probe Release
013005 Titan Probe Entry
062508 End of Primary Mission
Schedule last updated 72292
GALILEO Jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe in transit Has returned
the first resolved images of an asteroid Gaspra while in transit to
Jupiter Efforts to unfurl the stuck HighGain Antenna HGA have
essentially been abandoned JPL has developed a backup plan using data
compression JPEGlike for images lossless compression for data from
the other instruments which should allow the mission to achieve
approximately 70 of its original objectives
Galileo Schedule
101889 Launch from Space Shuttle
020990 Venus Flyby
1090 Venus Data Playback
120890 1st Earth Flyby
050191 High Gain Antenna Unfurled
0791 0692 1st Asteroid Belt Passage
102991 Asteroid Gaspra Flyby
120892 2nd Earth Flyby
0593 1193 2nd Asteroid Belt Passage
082893 Asteroid Ida Flyby
070295 Probe Separation
070995 Orbiter Deflection Maneuver
1295 1097 Orbital Tour of Jovian Moons
120795 JupiterIo Encounter
071896 Ganymede
092896 Ganymede
121296 Callisto
012397 Europa
022897 Ganymede
042297 Europa
053197 Europa
100597 Jupiter Magnetotail Exploration
HITEN Japanese ISAS lunar probe launched 12490 Has made
multiple lunar flybys Released Hagoromo a smaller satellite
into lunar orbit This mission made Japan the third nation to
orbit a satellite around the Moon
MAGELLAN Venus radar mapping mission Has mapped almost the entire
surface at high resolution Currently 493 collecting a global gravity
map
MARS OBSERVER Mars orbiter including 15 mpixel resolution camera
Launched 92592 on a Titan IIITOS booster MO is currently 493 in
transit to Mars arriving on 82493 Operations will start 1193 for
one martian year 687 days
TOPEXPoseidon Joint USFrench Earth observing satellite launched
81092 on an Ariane 4 booster The primary objective of the
TOPEXPOSEIDON project is to make precise and accurate global
observations of the sea level for several years substantially
increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics The satellite also
will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean
ULYSSES European Space Agency probe to study the Sun from an orbit over
its poles Launched in late 1990 it carries particlesandfields
experiments such as magnetometer ion and electron collectors for
various energy ranges plasma wave radio receivers etc but no camera
Since no humanbuilt rocket is hefty enough to send Ulysses far out of
the ecliptic plane it went to Jupiter instead and stole energy from
that planet by sliding over Jupiters north pole in a gravityassist
manuver in February 1992 This bent its path into a solar orbit tilted
about 85 degrees to the ecliptic It will pass over the Suns south pole
in the summer of 1993 Its aphelion is 52 AU and surprisingly its
perihelion is about 15 AU thats right a solarstudies spacecraft
thats always further from the Sun than the Earth is
While in Jupiters neigborhood Ulysses studied the magnetic and
radiation environment For a short summary of these results see
Science V 257 p 14871489 11 September 1992 For gory technical
detail see the many articles in the same issue
OTHER SPACE SCIENCE MISSIONS note this is based on a posting by Ron
Baalke in 1189 with ISASNASDA information contributed by Yoshiro
Yamada yamadayscvaxyscgojp Im attempting to track changes based
on updated shuttle manifests corrections and updates are welcome
1993 Missions
o ALEXIS [spring Pegasus]
ALEXIS Array of LowEnergy Xray Imaging Sensors is to perform
a widefield sky survey in the soft lowenergy Xray
spectrum It will scan the entire sky every six months to search
for variations in softXray emission from sources such as white
dwarfs cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars It will also
search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron
stars and gammaray bursters ALEXIS is a project of Los Alamos
National Laboratory and is primarily a technology development
mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the
technology Contact project investigator Jeffrey J Bloch
jjbbetalanlgov for more information
o Wind [Aug Delta II rocket]
Satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere
o Space Radar Lab [Sep STS60 SRL01]
Gather radar images of Earths surface
o Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [Dec Pegasus rocket]
Study of Stratospheric ozone
o SFU Space Flyer Unit [ISAS]
Conducting space experiments and observations and this can be
recovered after it conducts the various scientific and
engineering experiments SFU is to be launched by ISAS and
retrieved by the US Space Shuttle on STS68 in 1994
1994
o Polar Auroral Plasma Physics [May Delta II rocket]
June measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the
Earth
o IML2 STS [NASDA Jul 1994 IML02]
International Microgravity Laboratory
o ADEOS [NASDA]
Advanced Earth Observing Satellite
o MUSESB Mu Space Engineering SatelliteB [ISAS]
Conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure
and inspace astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves
1995
LUNARA [ISAS]
Elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the
moons interior
Proposed Missions
o Advanced Xray Astronomy Facility AXAF
Possible launch from shuttle in 1995 AXAF is a space
observatory with a high resolution telescope It would orbit for
15 years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe
o Earth Observing System EOS
Possible launch in 1997 1 of 6 US orbiting space platforms to
provide longterm data 15 years of Earth systems science
including planetary evolution
o Mercury Observer
Possible 1997 launch
o Lunar Observer
Possible 1997 launch would be sent into a longterm lunar
orbit The Observer from 60 miles above the moons poles would
survey characteristics to provide a global context for the
results from the Apollo program
o Space Infrared Telescope Facility
Possible launch by shuttle in 1999 this is the 4th element of
the Great Observatories program A freeflying observatory with
a lifetime of 5 to 10 years it would observe new comets and
other primitive bodies in the outer solar system study cosmic
birth formation of galaxies stars and planets and distant
infraredemitting galaxies
o Mars Rover Sample Return MRSR
Robotics rover would return samples of Mars atmosphere and
surface to Earch for analysis Possible launch dates 1996 for
imaging orbiter 2001 for rover
o Fire and Ice
Possible launch in 2001 will use a gravity assist flyby of
Earth in 2003 and use a final gravity assist from Jupiter in
2005 where the probe will split into its Fire and Ice
components The Fire probe will journey into the Sun taking
measurements of our stars upper atmosphere until it is
vaporized by the intense heat The Ice probe will head out
towards Pluto reaching the tiny world for study by 2016
NEXT FAQ 1215 Controversial questions
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Russian Operation of US Space Missions.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 10
I know people hate it when someone says somethings like "there was an article
about that somewhere a while ago" but I'm going to say it anyway. I read an
article on this subject, almost certainly in Space News, and something like
six months ago. If anyone is really interested in the subject I can probably
hunt it down given enough motivation.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
seront capable de le realiser"
-Jules Verne
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Russian Operation of US Space Missions
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 10
I know people hate it when someone says somethings like there was an article
about that somewhere a while ago but Im going to say it anyway I read an
article on this subject almost certainly in Space News and something like
six months ago If anyone is really interested in the subject I can probably
hunt it down given enough motivation
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
seront capable de le realiser
Jules Verne
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 13
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>technology base... and on government contracts. Just doing it privately,
>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 13
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 64
In article <C4vyFu.JJ6@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
>:
>: Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. If you state that
>: one of the books in your room is blue, I certainly do not need as much
>: evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed
>: leapard in your bed. [ and I don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ]
>
>Keith,
>
>If the issue is, "What is Truth" then the consequences of whatever
>proposition argued is irrelevent. If the issue is, "What are the consequences
>if such and such -is- True", then Truth is irrelevent. Which is it to
>be?
I disagree: every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence
and support, before one can believe it. There are a miriad of factors for
each individual. As we are all different, we quite obviously require
different levels of evidence.
As one pointed out, one's history is important. While in FUSSR, one
may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans.
One would need more evidence, than if one lived in the United States. The
only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the US, is if the
individual always wear business suits, etc.
The degree of the effect upon the world, and the strength of the
claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary. When determining the
level of evidence one needs, it is most certainly relevent what the
consequences of the proposition are.
If the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, please explain
why one would not accept: The electro-magnetic force of attraction between
two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their
distance apart.
Remember, if the consequences of the law are not relevent, then
we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof. If one of the
consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of
affairs, or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law,
they are irrelevent when theorizing about the "Truth" of the law.
Given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent, including
the consequence of self-contradiction or contradiction with the state of
affiars, how are we ever able to judge what is true or not; let alone find
"The Truth"?
By the way, what is "Truth"? Please define before inserting it in
the conversation. Please explain what "Truth" or "TRUTH" is. I do think that
anything is ever known for certain. Even if there IS a "Truth", we could
never possibly know if it were. I find the concept to be meaningless.
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Gospel Dating
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 64
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote
Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence If you state that
one of the books in your room is blue I certainly do not need as much
evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed
leapard in your bed [ and I dont mean a male lover in a leotard ]
Keith
If the issue is What is Truth then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent If the issue is What are the consequences
if such and such is True then Truth is irrelevent Which is it to
be
I disagree every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence
and support before one can believe it There are a miriad of factors for
each individual As we are all different we quite obviously require
different levels of evidence
As one pointed out ones history is important While in FUSSR one
may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans
One would need more evidence than if one lived in the United States The
only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the US is if the
individual always wear business suits etc
The degree of the effect upon the world and the strength of the
claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary When determining the
level of evidence one needs it is most certainly relevent what the
consequences of the proposition are
If the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent please explain
why one would not accept The electromagnetic force of attraction between
two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their
distance apart
Remember if the consequences of the law are not relevent then
we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof If one of the
consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of
affairs or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law
they are irrelevent when theorizing about the Truth of the law
Given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent including
the consequence of selfcontradiction or contradiction with the state of
affiars how are we ever able to judge what is true or not let alone find
The Truth
By the way what is Truth Please define before inserting it in
the conversation Please explain what Truth or TRUTH is I do think that
anything is ever known for certain Even if there IS a Truth we could
never possibly know if it were I find the concept to be meaningless
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: wilkins@scubed.com (Darin Wilkins)
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
Nntp-Posting-Host: renoir
Organization: S-CUBED, A Division of Maxwell Labs; San Diego CA
Lines: 22
>>FROM: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
>>The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
>>finished writing a sequel to the Bible.
In article <2944079995.1.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines. He's already
>written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
>handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING!. I would expect any
>decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker. Maybe Koresh 2.0 will
>come with one.
I heard he had asked the FBI to provide him with a word processor. Does
anyone know if Koresh has requested that it be WordPerfect5.0? WP5.0 was
written (and is owned) by Mormons, so the theological implications of
requesting (or refusing) WP5.0 are profound!
darin
wilkins@scubed.scubed.com
________________________________
| |
| I will be President for food |
|______________________________|
after prepro From wilkinsscubedcom Darin Wilkins
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
NntpPostingHost renoir
Organization SCUBED A Division of Maxwell Labs San Diego CA
Lines 22
FROM mathew
The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible
In article 29440799951p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines Hes already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING I would expect any
decent messiah to have a builtin spellchecker Maybe Koresh 20 will
come with one
I heard he had asked the FBI to provide him with a word processor Does
anyone know if Koresh has requested that it be WordPerfect50 WP50 was
written and is owned by Mormons so the theological implications of
requesting or refusing WP50 are profound
darin
wilkinsscubedscubedcom
________________________________
I will be President for food
______________________________
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 54
In article <66014@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?
>
>If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
>it's obviously a risk one takes.
>
I see, it is not rational, but it is intellectual. Does madness qualify
as intellectual engagement, too?
>>Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
>>is contradictive.
>
>I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
>conceptualization. The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
>trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
>experience. One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
>the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
>perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).
>
Exactly why science uses mathematics. QM representation in natural language
is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical
terminology. Nor is it supposed to be the truth, as opposed to the
representation of gods or religions in ordinary language. Admittedly,
not every religion says so, but a fancy side effect of their inept
representations are the eternal hassles between religions.
And QM allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will
be agreed upon as being similar. Show me something similar in religion.
>An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
>that the "better" descriptive language is not available.
>
With the effect that the models presented are useless. And one can argue
that the other way around, namely that the only reason metaphysics still
flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified -
showing that it is bogus.
>>And in case it holds reliable information, can you show how you establish
>>that?
>
>This word "reliable" is essentially meaningless in the context-- unless you
>can show how reliability can be determined.
Haven't you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can
be acheived respectively determined?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 54
In article 66014mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
And what about that revelation thing Charley
If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes
I see it is not rational but it is intellectual Does madness qualify
as intellectual engagement too
Many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge
is contradictive
Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable
Exactly why science uses mathematics QM representation in natural language
is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical
terminology Nor is it supposed to be the truth as opposed to the
representation of gods or religions in ordinary language Admittedly
not every religion says so but a fancy side effect of their inept
representations are the eternal hassles between religions
And QM allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will
be agreed upon as being similar Show me something similar in religion
An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available
With the effect that the models presented are useless And one can argue
that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still
flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified
showing that it is bogus
And in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish
that
This word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you
can show how reliability can be determined
Havent you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can
be acheived respectively determined
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 52
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr16.014506.27923@sol.UVic.CA> rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross Borden) writes:
|In article <1qjs1j$306@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>
|>
|>In the old days, their used to be Arbitron stats' that analyzed
|>the readership and posting volumes by group and user.
|>
|>They were available from UUNET. That's how you check the
|>readership of Sci.space, not some stupid unscientific attempt
|>to flood the newsgroup.
|>
|>I have abetter idea. WHy don't we all reply directly to the
|>origanator of this post, and tell him we read sci.space ;-)
|>
|>
|>pat
|
| Sigh.
| I try to make a little joke, I try to inject some humour here
|and what happens? In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn:
|
| "I say, that was a _joke_, son."
|
| I thought that the bit about McElwaine, not to mention the two
|smileys, would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
|JOKING.
> Sigh.
> (And will everyone who pat's suggestion (thanks bunches, pat)
>*please* stop sending me email.)
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| I shot a man just to watch him die; | Ross Borden |
>| I'm going to Disneyland! | rborden@ra.uvic.ca |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I had put a Wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was
intensely sarcastic. I can't help it if everyone got all serious.
Ross.
I never saw your original posting. it dropped on the floor
somewhere. I just saw the trickle down, thought it was intensely
stupid, not knowing anything about the joke, mentioned arbitron
and left it with an equally stupid joke. Bill in his ever increasing
devotion to thoroughness dug up several arbitron stats.
I myself think the arbitron stats are severely methodologically impaired,
but are a good measure of proportion. I don't think anyone
knows how many people read news anymore.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 52
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr1601450627923solUVicCA rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross Borden writes
In article 1qjs1j306accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In the old days their used to be Arbitron stats that analyzed
the readership and posting volumes by group and user
They were available from UUNET Thats how you check the
readership of Scispace not some stupid unscientific attempt
to flood the newsgroup
I have abetter idea WHy dont we all reply directly to the
origanator of this post and tell him we read scispace
pat
Sigh
I try to make a little joke I try to inject some humour here
and what happens In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn
I say that was a _joke_ son
I thought that the bit about McElwaine not to mention the two
smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that I was
JOKING
Sigh
And will everyone who pats suggestion thanks bunches pat
please stop sending me email
I shot a man just to watch him die Ross Borden
Im going to Disneyland rbordenrauvicca
Now I had put a Wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was
intensely sarcastic I cant help it if everyone got all serious
Ross
I never saw your original posting it dropped on the floor
somewhere I just saw the trickle down thought it was intensely
stupid not knowing anything about the joke mentioned arbitron
and left it with an equally stupid joke Bill in his ever increasing
devotion to thoroughness dug up several arbitron stats
I myself think the arbitron stats are severely methodologically impaired
but are a good measure of proportion I dont think anyone
knows how many people read news anymore
pat
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 17
Ed McCreary (edm@twisto.compaq.com) wrote:
: >>>>> On 16 Apr 93 05:10:18 GMT, bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) said:
: RB> In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
: >EVER HEAR OF
: >BAPTISM AT BIRTH? If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
: >is...
: >
: RB>
: RB> No, that's praying on the young. Preying on the young comes
: RB> later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
: RB> priest really wears under that chasible.
Does this statement further the atheist cause in some way, surely it's
not intended as wit ...
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re thoughts on christians
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 17
Ed McCreary edmtwistocompaqcom wrote
On 16 Apr 93 051018 GMT bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine said
RB In article pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is
RB
RB No thats praying on the young Preying on the young comes
RB later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
RB priest really wears under that chasible
Does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely its
not intended as wit
Bill
preprocess doc From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War (long)
Lines: 346
In article <930420.105805.0x8.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>In article <930419.115707.6f2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
>><mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>> Which "liberal news media" are we talking about?
>>
>> Western news in general, but in particular the American "mass media":
>> CBS, NBC, ABC, etc. The general tone of the news during the whole
>> war was one of "those poor, poor Iraqis" along with "look how precisely
>> this cruise missile blew this building to bits".
>
> Most odd. Over here there was very little about the suffering of the Iraqi
> civilians until towards the end of the war; and then it was confined to the
> few remaining quality newspapers.
True. At first, the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos
the military was using, not to mention the taped video transmissions from
the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets. But later, and especially
after the bunker full of civilians was hit, they changed their tone. It
seemed to me that they didn't have the stomach for the reality of war,
that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare. It's like
they were only pro-Gulf-War as long as it was "nice and clean" (smart
missiles dropping in on military HQs), but not when pictures of dead,
dying, and maimed civilians started cropping up. What naive hypocrites!
>
>>>> How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
>>>> I don't hear you bemoaning them!
[ discussion about blanket-bombing and A-bombs deleted.]
>>>
>> All things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were
>> essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick
^^^^^^^^^
>> end to avoid even greater allied losses.
I should have said here "militarily justified". It seems from your
comments below that you understood this as meaning "morally justified".
I apologize.
>
> What about the evidence that America knew Japan was about to surrender after
> Hiroshima but *before* Nagasaki? Is that another lie peddled by the liberal
> media conspiracy?
I have often wondered about this. I've always thought that the first bomb
should have been dropped on Japan's island fortress of Truk. A good,
inpenatrable military target. The second bomb could've been held back
for use on an industrial center if need be. But I digress.
Yes, I have heard that we found evidence (after the war, BTW) that Japan
was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb. Unfortunately,
the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the US's
ulimatum. Therefore the second bomb was dropped. Most unfortunate, IMO.
>
>> I, for one, don't regret it.
>
> Nuke a Jap for Jesus!
>
I don't regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made
which affect the lives of innocent people. But I do regret the
circumstances which make those decisions necessary, and I regret the
suffering caused by those decisions.
[...]
>>> Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor, Bosnia, or even Tibet?
>>> If Iraq is so bad, why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks
>>> before we started bombing?
>>
>> I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
>> West before the war. It is evident that the West, especially America,
>> misjudged Hussein drastically. But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and
>> threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's
>> oil supply, he had to be stopped.
>
> Oh, I see. So we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of
> people, but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gas-guzzling car,
> well, the man's gotta go.
Actually, it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted US
and allied action. If some back-water country took over some other
back-water country, we probably wouldn't intervene. Not that we don't
care, but we can't be the world's policman. Or if a coup had occured
in Kuwait (instead of an invasion), then we still wouldn't have acted
because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to
Saudi Arabia. But the combination of the two, an unprovoked invasion
by a genocidal tyrant AND the potential danger to the West's oil
interests, caused us to take action.
>
> [ I've moved a paragraph from here to later on ]
>
[...]
>>
>> If we hadn't intervened, allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait, then it would
>> have been appeasement.
>
> Right. But did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action? Or
> are you just setting up a strawman?
>
I'm not setting up a strawman at all. If you want to argue against the
war, then the only logical alternative was to allow Hussein to keep
Kuwait. Diplomatic alternatives, including sanctions, were ineffective.
>>>> I guess we
>>>> shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
>>>> German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.
>>>
>>> Yes, do. Germans are human too, you know.
>>
>> Sure. What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
>> his grandiose quest for a "Thousand Year Reich". The consequences
>> stemmed from that.
>
> Translation: "They were asking for it".
>
Well, in a sense, yes. They probably had no idea of what end Hitler
would lead their nation to.
> But what about those who didn't support Hitler's dreams of conquest? It's
> not as if they democratically voted for all his policies. The NSDAP got 43%
> in the elections of 1933, and that was the last chance the German people got
> to vote on the matter.
They suffered along with the rest. Why does this bother you so much?
The world is full of evil, and circumstances are not perfect. Many
innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others. It it regretable,
but that's The-Way-It-Is. There are no perfect solutions.
[...]
>>>
>>> I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and
>>> Tibet.
>>
>> What should I say about them? Anything in particular?
>
> The people of East Timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that
> invaded their country. Hell, even Western journalists have been killed. All
> this was happening before the Gulf War. Why didn't we send in the bombers to
> East Timor? Why aren't we sending in the bombers NOW?
Probably because we're not the saviors of the world. We can't police each
and every country that decides to self-destruct or invade another. Nor
are we in a strategic position to get relief to Tibet, East Timor, or
some other places.
>
> [ Here's that paragraph I moved ]
>
>>> What's your intent? To sound like a Loving Christian? Well, you aren't
>>> doing a very good job of it.
>>
>> Well, it's not very "loving" to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
>> nearby countries and keep them. Or to allow them to continue with mass
>> slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion. So, I'd have to
>> say yes, stopping Hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the
>> most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest.
>
> The Chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization
> of Tibetans. Tibetan people are rounded up, tortured, and executed. Amnesty
> International recently reported that torture is still widespread in China.
>
> Why aren't we stopping them? In fact, why are we actively sucking up to them
> by trading freely with them?
Tell me how we could stop them and I'll support it. I, for one, do not
agree with the present US policy of "sucking up to them" as you put it.
I agree that it is deplorable.
>
>>>> And as for poor, poor Rodney King! Did you ever stop and think *why*
>>>> the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
>>>
>>> Yes. Amongst the things I thought were "Hmm, there's an awful lot of white
>>> people in that jury."
>>
>> So? It was the *policemen* on trial not Rodney King!!
>
> Erm, surely it's irrelevant who's on trial? Juries are supposed to represent
> a cross-section of the population.
Are they? Or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale
where the trial is held? (Normally this is where the crime is committed
unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue
is in order.) I'm not an expert on California law, or even US law, but
it seems that this is the way the system is set up. You can criticize
the system, but let's not have unfounded allegations of racial
prejudice thrown around.
>
>> And under American law they deserved a jury of *their* peers!
>
> You are saying that black people are not the peers of white people?
No, not at all. The point is that the fact that there were no blacks
on the first jury and that Rodney King is black is totally irrelevant.
>
>> This point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow.
>
> This idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them
> is really stupid. Should the Nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made
> up of Nazis?
Germans, perhaps. "Peers" doesn't mean "those who do the same thing",
like having murderers judge murderers. It means "having people from
the same station in life", presumably because they are in a better
position to understand the defendent's motivation(s).
>
>>>> Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
>>>> policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
>>>> But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
>>>> have not seen.
>>>
>>> When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone who's lying defenceless on
>>> the ground, it's rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
>>> been.
>>
>> So? It's "hard to imagine"? So when has Argument from Incredulity
>> gained acceptance from the revered author of "Constructing a Logical
>> Argument"?
>
> We're not talking about a logical argument. We're talking about a court of
> law. As the FAQ points out, some fallacious arguments are not viewed as
> fallacies in a court of law.
OK, granted. However, you are using this reasoning as part of *your*
logical argument in this discussion. This is not a court of law.
>
>> If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then
>> I feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one.
>
> Were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy?
>
The media is not totally monolithic. Even though there is a prevailing
liberal bias, programs such as the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour try to give
a balanced and fair reporting of the news. There are even conservative
sources out there if you know where to look. (Hurrah for Rush!)
BTW, I never used the word "conspiracy". I don't accept (without *far*
more evidence) theories that there is some all-pervading liberal
conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources.
>>> "Thou shalt not kill... unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing,
>>> in which case thou shalt kill, and also kill anyone who gets in the way,
>>> as unfortunately it cannot be helped."
>>> -- Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians
>>
>> Thanks mathew, I like the quote. Pretty funny actually. (I'm a
>> Monty Python fan, you know. Kind of seems in that vein.)
>>
>> Of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
>> contradictory. But then, you know that already.
>
> Ha ha, only serious.
>
> I, an atheist, am arguing against killing innocent people.
>
> You, a supposed Christian, are arguing that it's OK to kill innocent people
> so long as you get some guilty ones as well.
Hardly. I didn't say that it's a Good Thing [tm] to kill innocent people
if the end is just. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and
there are no perfect solutions. If one is going to resist tyranny, then
innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die. I didn't say
it is OK -- it is unfortunate, but sometimes necessary.
>
> I, a moral relativist, am arguing that saturation bombing of German cities at
> the end of World War II was (as far as I can see) an evil and unnecessary act.
I would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain
and suffering. I'm not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say. That
conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved.
And perhaps it *was* unnecessary as (let's say) we now know. That doesn't
mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didn't see it as
being necessary. Rarely can one have full known of the consequences of
an action before making a decision. At the time it may have seemed
necessary enough to go ahead with it.
But don't assume that I feel the bombing was *morally* justified -- I
don't! I just don't condemn those who had to make a difficult
decision under difficult circumstances.
>
> You, having criticised moral relativism in the past, are now arguing that I am
> in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the
> War.
You certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist.
I, as an absolutist, am in a position to judge, but I defer judgment.
> You are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular
> context of the time, and that they might have been moral then but not moral
> now.
Wrong. They were neither moral then nor now. They seemed necessary to
those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war. I simply
refuse to condemn them for their decision.
>
> Where's your Christian love? Where's your absolute morality? Oh, how quick
> you are to discard them when it suits you. As Ivan Stang would say, "Jesus
> would puke!"
One day I will stand before Jesus and give account of every word and action;
even this discourse in this forum. I understand the full ramifications of
that, and I am prepared to do so. I don't believe that you can make the
same claim.
>
> mathew
And BTW, the reason I brought up the blanket-bombing in Germany was
because you were bemoaning the Iraqi civilian casualties as being
"so deplorable". Yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing
wasn't accurate enough to hit industrial/military targets in a
decisive way by any other method at that time. But in the Gulf War,
precision bombing was the norm. So the point was, why make a big
stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted
*in spite of* precision bombing, when so many more civilians
(proportionately and quantitatively) died under the blanket bombing
in WW2? Even with precision bombing, mistakes happen and some
civilians suffer. But less civilians suffered in this war than
any other iany other in history! Many Iraqi civilians went about their lives
with minimal interference from the allied air raids. The stories
of "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk.
Yes, bunk. The US lost 230,000 servicemen in WW2 over four years
and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting! But
we are expected to swallow that "hundreds of thousands" of
*civilian* Iraqis died in a war lasting about 2 months! And with
the Allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that!
What hogwash. If "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqi civilians died,
it was due to actions Hussein took on his own people, not due to
the Allied bombing.
Regards,
Jim B.
after prepro From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty Gulf War long
Lines 346
In article 9304201058050x8rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 9304191157076f2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
writes
Which liberal news media are we talking about
Western news in general but in particular the American mass media
CBS NBC ABC etc The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of those poor poor Iraqis along with look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits
Most odd Over here there was very little about the suffering of the Iraqi
civilians until towards the end of the war and then it was confined to the
few remaining quality newspapers
True At first the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos
the military was using not to mention the taped video transmissions from
the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets But later and especially
after the bunker full of civilians was hit they changed their tone It
seemed to me that they didnt have the stomach for the reality of war
that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare Its like
they were only proGulfWar as long as it was nice and clean smart
missiles dropping in on military HQs but not when pictures of dead
dying and maimed civilians started cropping up What naive hypocrites
How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
I dont hear you bemoaning them
[ discussion about blanketbombing and Abombs deleted]
All things considered the firebombings and the atomic bomb were
essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick
^^^^^^^^^
end to avoid even greater allied losses
I should have said here militarily justified It seems from your
comments below that you understood this as meaning morally justified
I apologize
What about the evidence that America knew Japan was about to surrender after
Hiroshima but before Nagasaki Is that another lie peddled by the liberal
media conspiracy
I have often wondered about this Ive always thought that the first bomb
should have been dropped on Japans island fortress of Truk A good
inpenatrable military target The second bomb couldve been held back
for use on an industrial center if need be But I digress
Yes I have heard that we found evidence after the war BTW that Japan
was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb Unfortunately
the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the USs
ulimatum Therefore the second bomb was dropped Most unfortunate IMO
I for one dont regret it
Nuke a Jap for Jesus
I dont regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made
which affect the lives of innocent people But I do regret the
circumstances which make those decisions necessary and I regret the
suffering caused by those decisions
[]
Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor Bosnia or even Tibet
If Iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks
before we started bombing
I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war It is evident that the West especially America
misjudged Hussein drastically But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the worlds
oil supply he had to be stopped
Oh I see So we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of
people but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gasguzzling car
well the mans gotta go
Actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted US
and allied action If some backwater country took over some other
backwater country we probably wouldnt intervene Not that we dont
care but we cant be the worlds policman Or if a coup had occured
in Kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldnt have acted
because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to
Saudi Arabia But the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion
by a genocidal tyrant AND the potential danger to the Wests oil
interests caused us to take action
[ Ive moved a paragraph from here to later on ]
[]
If we hadnt intervened allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait then it would
have been appeasement
Right But did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action Or
are you just setting up a strawman
Im not setting up a strawman at all If you want to argue against the
war then the only logical alternative was to allow Hussein to keep
Kuwait Diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective
I guess we
shouldnt have fought WW2 either just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg
Yes do Germans are human too you know
Sure What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a Thousand Year Reich The consequences
stemmed from that
Translation They were asking for it
Well in a sense yes They probably had no idea of what end Hitler
would lead their nation to
But what about those who didnt support Hitlers dreams of conquest Its
not as if they democratically voted for all his policies The NSDAP got 43
in the elections of 1933 and that was the last chance the German people got
to vote on the matter
They suffered along with the rest Why does this bother you so much
The world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect Many
innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others It it regretable
but thats TheWayItIs There are no perfect solutions
[]
I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and
Tibet
What should I say about them Anything in particular
The people of East Timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that
invaded their country Hell even Western journalists have been killed All
this was happening before the Gulf War Why didnt we send in the bombers to
East Timor Why arent we sending in the bombers NOW
Probably because were not the saviors of the world We cant police each
and every country that decides to selfdestruct or invade another Nor
are we in a strategic position to get relief to Tibet East Timor or
some other places
[ Heres that paragraph I moved ]
Whats your intent To sound like a Loving Christian Well you arent
doing a very good job of it
Well its not very loving to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion So Id have to
say yes stopping Hussein was the most loving thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest
The Chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization
of Tibetans Tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed Amnesty
International recently reported that torture is still widespread in China
Why arent we stopping them In fact why are we actively sucking up to them
by trading freely with them
Tell me how we could stop them and Ill support it I for one do not
agree with the present US policy of sucking up to them as you put it
I agree that it is deplorable
And as for poor poor Rodney King Did you ever stop and think why
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
Yes Amongst the things I thought were Hmm theres an awful lot of white
people in that jury
So It was the policemen on trial not Rodney King
Erm surely its irrelevant whos on trial Juries are supposed to represent
a crosssection of the population
Are they Or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale
where the trial is held Normally this is where the crime is committed
unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue
is in order Im not an expert on California law or even US law but
it seems that this is the way the system is set up You can criticize
the system but lets not have unfounded allegations of racial
prejudice thrown around
And under American law they deserved a jury of their peers
You are saying that black people are not the peers of white people
No not at all The point is that the fact that there were no blacks
on the first jury and that Rodney King is black is totally irrelevant
This point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow
This idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them
is really stupid Should the Nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made
up of Nazis
Germans perhaps Peers doesnt mean those who do the same thing
like having murderers judge murderers It means having people from
the same station in life presumably because they are in a better
position to understand the defendents motivations
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
have not seen
When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone whos lying defenceless on
the ground its rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
been
So Its hard to imagine So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of Constructing a Logical
Argument
Were not talking about a logical argument Were talking about a court of
law As the FAQ points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed as
fallacies in a court of law
OK granted However you are using this reasoning as part of your
logical argument in this discussion This is not a court of law
If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then
I feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one
Were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy
The media is not totally monolithic Even though there is a prevailing
liberal bias programs such as the MacNeilLehrer News Hour try to give
a balanced and fair reporting of the news There are even conservative
sources out there if you know where to look Hurrah for Rush
BTW I never used the word conspiracy I dont accept without far
more evidence theories that there is some allpervading liberal
conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources
Thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing
in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way
as unfortunately it cannot be helped
Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians
Thanks mathew I like the quote Pretty funny actually Im a
Monty Python fan you know Kind of seems in that vein
Of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory But then you know that already
Ha ha only serious
I an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people
You a supposed Christian are arguing that its OK to kill innocent people
so long as you get some guilty ones as well
Hardly I didnt say that its a Good Thing [tm] to kill innocent people
if the end is just Unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world and
there are no perfect solutions If one is going to resist tyranny then
innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die I didnt say
it is OK it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary
I a moral relativist am arguing that saturation bombing of German cities at
the end of World War II was as far as I can see an evil and unnecessary act
I would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain
and suffering Im not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say That
conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved
And perhaps it was unnecessary as lets say we now know That doesnt
mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didnt see it as
being necessary Rarely can one have full known of the consequences of
an action before making a decision At the time it may have seemed
necessary enough to go ahead with it
But dont assume that I feel the bombing was morally justified I
dont I just dont condemn those who had to make a difficult
decision under difficult circumstances
You having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that I am
in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the
War
You certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist
I as an absolutist am in a position to judge but I defer judgment
You are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular
context of the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral
now
Wrong They were neither moral then nor now They seemed necessary to
those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war I simply
refuse to condemn them for their decision
Wheres your Christian love Wheres your absolute morality Oh how quick
you are to discard them when it suits you As Ivan Stang would say Jesus
would puke
One day I will stand before Jesus and give account of every word and action
even this discourse in this forum I understand the full ramifications of
that and I am prepared to do so I dont believe that you can make the
same claim
mathew
And BTW the reason I brought up the blanketbombing in Germany was
because you were bemoaning the Iraqi civilian casualties as being
so deplorable Yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing
wasnt accurate enough to hit industrialmilitary targets in a
decisive way by any other method at that time But in the Gulf War
precision bombing was the norm So the point was why make a big
stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted
in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians
proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing
in WW2 Even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some
civilians suffer But less civilians suffered in this war than
any other iany other in history Many Iraqi civilians went about their lives
with minimal interference from the allied air raids The stories
of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk
Yes bunk The US lost 230000 servicemen in WW2 over four years
and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting But
we are expected to swallow that hundreds of thousands of
civilian Iraqis died in a war lasting about 2 months And with
the Allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that
What hogwash If hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians died
it was due to actions Hussein took on his own people not due to
the Allied bombing
Regards
Jim B
preprocess doc From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
Lines: 24
In-Reply-To: frank@D012S658.uucp's message of 15 Apr 1993 23:15:09 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp writes:
(Attempting to define 'objective morality'):
> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable. I base
> this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
> of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
> almost all would want to complain.
So long as you keep that "almost" in there, freedom will be a
mostly valuable thing, to most people. That is, I think you're really
saying, "a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable
to them". That's good, and a quite nice starting point for a moral
system, but it's NOT UNIVERSAL, and thus not "objective".
> Therefore I take it that to assert or
> believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
> that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
> a rainy day.
It isn't in Sahara.
--
Disclaimer? "It's great to be young and insane!"
after prepro From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
Lines 24
InReplyTo frankD012S658uucps message of 15 Apr 1993 231509 GMT
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
In 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp writes
Attempting to define objective morality
Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain
So long as you keep that almost in there freedom will be a
mostly valuable thing to most people That is I think youre really
saying a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable
to them Thats good and a quite nice starting point for a moral
system but its NOT UNIVERSAL and thus not objective
Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day
It isnt in Sahara
Disclaimer Its great to be young and insane
preprocess doc From: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl (Andres Grino Brandt)
Subject: Studies on Book of Mormon
Distribution: world
Organization: Orden del Lobo Estepario
Reply-To: agrino@enkidu.mic.cl
Lines: 20
Hi!
I don't know much about Mormons, and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon.
I don't buy the 'official' story about the gold original taken to heaven,
but haven't read the Book of Mormon by myself (I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew), I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style, vocabulary, place-names, internal consistency, and so on.
For example: There is evidence for one-writer or multiple writers?
There are some mention about events, places, or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist?
Yours in Collen
Andres Grino Brandt Casilla 14801 - Santiago 21
agrino@enkidu.mic.cl Chile
No hay mas realidad que la realidad, y la razon es su profeta
after prepro From agrinoenkidumiccl Andres Grino Brandt
Subject Studies on Book of Mormon
Distribution world
Organization Orden del Lobo Estepario
ReplyTo agrinoenkidumiccl
Lines 20
Hi
I dont know much about Mormons and I want to know about serious independent
studies about the Book of Mormon
I dont buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven
but havent read the Book of Mormon by myself I have to much work learning
Biblical Hebrew I will appreciate any comment about the results of study
in style vocabulary placenames internal consistency and so on
For example There is evidence for onewriter or multiple writers
There are some mention about events places or historical persons later
discovered by archeologist
Yours in Collen
Andres Grino Brandt Casilla 14801 Santiago 21
agrinoenkidumiccl Chile
No hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta
preprocess doc From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Subject: Re: Space Station radio commercial
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.
Lines: 25
In article <C5r2I1.793@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes:
>A brief political/cultural item.
>
>Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
>a large audience among high officials (elected and otherwise).
>Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes, diamond
>jewelry, expensive resorts and (truthfully) Trident submarines.
>
>This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project.
>Didn't catch the advertiser.
>
>Guess they're pulling out all the stops.
In the Air Force world at least, the crisis escalates when scale
models of the plane in question (i.e. about to be sacrificed) begin to
arrive in key Senators and Congresspersons' offices.
Of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has
been tried earlier.
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics (317) 451-0815
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904 "I post, therefore I ARMM"
after prepro From c23stkocrsv01delcoelectcom Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
Subject Re Space Station radio commercial
Organization Delco Electronics Corp
Lines 25
In article xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
A brief politicalcultural item
Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes diamond
jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully Trident submarines
This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project
Didnt catch the advertiser
Guess theyre pulling out all the stops
In the Air Force world at least the crisis escalates when scale
models of the plane in question ie about to be sacrificed begin to
arrive in key Senators and Congresspersons offices
Of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has
been tried earlier
Spiros
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos c23stkocrsv01delcoelectcom
Software Technology Delco Electronics 317 4510815
GM Hughes Electronics Kokomo IN 46904 I post therefore I ARMM
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 49
hoover@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:
>> hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff *returns to earth*.
>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
>If this turns out to be true, it's time to get seriously active in
>terrorism. This is unbelievable! Who do those people think they are,
>selling every bit that promises to make money? I guess we really
>deserve being wiped out by uv radiation, folks. "Stupidity wins". I
>guess that's true, and if only by pure numbers.
> Another depressed planetary citizen,
> hoover
This isn't inherently bad.
This isn't really light pollution since it will only
be visible shortly before or after dusk (or during the
day).
(Of course, if night only lasts 2 hours for you, you're probably going
to be inconvienenced. But you're inconvienenced anyway in that case).
Finally: this isn't the Bronze Age, and most of us aren't Indo
European; those people speaking Indo-Eurpoean languages often have
much non-indo-european ancestry and cultural background. So:
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste, the Farming Caste, and the
Priesthood.
And why act distressed that someone's found a way to do research
that doesn't involve socialism?
It certianly doesn't mean we deserve to die.
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 49
hoovermathematikunibielefeldde Uwe Schuerkamp writes
In article enzoresearchcanonozau
Enzo Liguori writes
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
This is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
If this turns out to be true its time to get seriously active in
terrorism This is unbelievable Who do those people think they are
selling every bit that promises to make money I guess we really
deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks Stupidity wins I
guess thats true and if only by pure numbers
Another depressed planetary citizen
hoover
This isnt inherently bad
This isnt really light pollution since it will only
be visible shortly before or after dusk or during the
day
Of course if night only lasts 2 hours for you youre probably going
to be inconvienenced But youre inconvienenced anyway in that case
Finally this isnt the Bronze Age and most of us arent Indo
European those people speaking IndoEurpoean languages often have
much nonindoeuropean ancestry and cultural background So
please try to remember that there are more human activities than
those practiced by the Warrior Caste the Farming Caste and the
Priesthood
And why act distressed that someones found a way to do research
that doesnt involve socialism
It certianly doesnt mean we deserve to die
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: geoff@East.Sun.COM (Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: SunSelect
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Reply-To: geoff@East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: poori.east.sun.com
Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:
>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?
---
Geoff Arnold, PC-NFS architect, Sun Select. (geoff.arnold@East.Sun.COM)
--------------------------------------------------+-------------------
"What if they made the whole thing up? | "The Great Lie" by
Four guys, two thousand years ago, over wine..." | The Tear Garden
after prepro From geoffEastSunCOM Geoff Arnold Sun BOS RH coast near the top
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization SunSelect
Lines 22
Distribution world
ReplyTo geoffEastSunCOM
NNTPPostingHost poorieastsuncom
Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables
From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky
An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is
Geoff Arnold PCNFS architect Sun Select geoffarnoldEastSunCOM
What if they made the whole thing up The Great Lie by
Four guys two thousand years ago over wine The Tear Garden
preprocess doc From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
In-Reply-To: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu's message of 5 Apr 93 16:49:14 GMT
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
Lines: 24
In <114127@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu writes:
[deletia]
> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic
> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
In the deletions somewhere, it mentioned something about chopping
off of hands being a punishment for theft in Saudi Arabia. Assuming this
is so (I wouldn't know), and assuming it is done by people fitting your
requirement for "muslim" (which I find highly likely), then would you
please try to convince Bobby Mozumder that muslims chop people's hands
off?
Come back when you've succeeded.
--
Disclaimer? "It's great to be young and insane!"
after prepro From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
InReplyTo jaegerbuphybuedus message of 5 Apr 93 164914 GMT
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
Lines 24
In 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu writes
[deletia]
I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic
principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts
In the deletions somewhere it mentioned something about chopping
off of hands being a punishment for theft in Saudi Arabia Assuming this
is so I wouldnt know and assuming it is done by people fitting your
requirement for muslim which I find highly likely then would you
please try to convince Bobby Mozumder that muslims chop peoples hands
off
Come back when youve succeeded
Disclaimer Its great to be young and insane
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Market or gov failures
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr6.133130.8998
Distribution: sci
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 52
In <C4tCL8.7xI.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:
>[Fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program]
>I reply;
>>>BTW, Fred, you've really crossed the border, since you admit that the ideas
>>>you support can only be carried out with coercive power. Now that's really
>>>f***in' intolerant, so get off yer high horse about tolerance.
>Fred replies;
>>No, Tommy, I "admit" that there are such things as 'market failures'
>>which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to
>>correct.
>I guess your understanding of this 'market failure' should be classified
>under Phil's 'economics on the level of 19th century medicine', since you
>apparently completely ignored that this 'market failure' can as easily,
>or even much more easily, be attributed to "government intervention
>failure". So, in addition to a strong moral argument against what you
>propose, there is also a strong utilitarian argument, namely that gov's
>destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution
>on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder
>to make.
I note that you make no such case as you claim can be 'even more
easily made'. Yes, the argument can (and has) been made that current
government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were
in the first place, but there is no such term as 'government failure',
since the government can change policies whenever it pleases. The
market doesn't do that and is governed by (relatively) well-understood
forces. This libertopican bilge about 'moral arguments' about
taxation, etc., is, at bottom, so much simplistic economic thinking.
It can only be 'justified' by cliche derision of anyone who knows more
about economics than the libertopian -- which is what invariably
happens. Tripe a la Tommy, the new libertopian dish.
>>Get a clue, little boy, and go salve your wounded pride in my not
>>considering you infallible in some other fashion. I'm not interested
>>in your ego games.
>Puh-leese, Fred. This, besides being simply an attempt to be insulting,
>really belongs on private mail. If 'ego-games' are so unimportatnt to
>you, why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me?
Wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance?
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Market or gov failures
ArticleID mksol1993Apr61331308998
Distribution sci
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 52
In 18084TMmsuedu Tom writes
[Fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program]
I reply
BTW Fred youve really crossed the border since you admit that the ideas
you support can only be carried out with coercive power Now thats really
fin intolerant so get off yer high horse about tolerance
Fred replies
No Tommy I admit that there are such things as market failures
which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to
correct
I guess your understanding of this market failure should be classified
under Phils economics on the level of 19th century medicine since you
apparently completely ignored that this market failure can as easily
or even much more easily be attributed to government intervention
failure So in addition to a strong moral argument against what you
propose there is also a strong utilitarian argument namely that govs
destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution
on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder
to make
I note that you make no such case as you claim can be even more
easily made Yes the argument can and has been made that current
government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were
in the first place but there is no such term as government failure
since the government can change policies whenever it pleases The
market doesnt do that and is governed by relatively wellunderstood
forces This libertopican bilge about moral arguments about
taxation etc is at bottom so much simplistic economic thinking
It can only be justified by cliche derision of anyone who knows more
about economics than the libertopian which is what invariably
happens Tripe a la Tommy the new libertopian dish
Get a clue little boy and go salve your wounded pride in my not
considering you infallible in some other fashion Im not interested
in your ego games
Puhleese Fred This besides being simply an attempt to be insulting
really belongs on private mail If egogames are so unimportatnt to
you why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me
Wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Gibbons Outlines SSF Redesign Guidance
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 76
NASA Headquarters distributed the following press
release today (4/6). I've typed it in verbatim, for you
folks to chew over. Many of the topics recently
discussed on sci.space are covered in this.
Gibbons Outlines Space Station Redesign Guidance
Dr. John H. Gibbons, Director, Office of Science and
Technology Policy, outlined to the members-designate of
the Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space
Station on April 3, three budget options as guidance to
the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of
the space station.
A low option of $5 billion, a mid-range option of $7
billion and a high option of $9 billion will be
considered by the committee. Each option would cover
the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for
development, operations, utilization, Shuttle
integration, facilities, research operations support,
transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the
available funds.
Over the next 5 years, $4 billion is reserved within
the NASA budget for the President's new technology
investment. As a result, station options above $7
billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in
the rest of the NASA budget. For example, a space
station option of $9 billion would require $2 billion
in offsets from the NASA budget over the next 5 years.
Gibbons presented the information at an organizational
session of the advisory committee. Generally, the
members-designate focused upon administrative topics
and used the session to get acquainted. They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation
on the process the Station Redesign Team is following
to develop options for the advisory committee to
consider.
Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners -- the Europeans, Japanese, and
Canadians -- have decided, after consultation, to give
"full consideration" to use of Russian assets in the
course of the space station redesign process.
To that end, the Russians will be asked to participate
in the redesign effort on an as-needed consulting
basis, so that the redesign team can make use of their
expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR and the
possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and
systems. The U.S. and international partners hope to
benefit from the expertise of the Russian participants
in assessing Russian systems and technology. The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop
options for reducing station costs while preserving key
research and exploration capabilities. Careful
integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in
achieving that goal.
Gibbons reiterated that, "President Clinton is
committed to the redesigned space station and to making
every effort to preserve the science, the technology
and the jobs that the space station program represents.
However, he also is committed to a space station that
is well managed and one that does not consume the
national resources which should be used to invest in
the future of this industry and this nation."
NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East-
West Space Science Center at the University of Maryland
under the leadership of Roald Sagdeev.
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Gibbons Outlines SSF Redesign Guidance
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 76
NASA Headquarters distributed the following press
release today 46 Ive typed it in verbatim for you
folks to chew over Many of the topics recently
discussed on scispace are covered in this
Gibbons Outlines Space Station Redesign Guidance
Dr John H Gibbons Director Office of Science and
Technology Policy outlined to the membersdesignate of
the Advisory Committee on the Redesign of the Space
Station on April 3 three budget options as guidance to
the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of
the space station
A low option of 5 billion a midrange option of 7
billion and a high option of 9 billion will be
considered by the committee Each option would cover
the total expenditures for space station from fiscal
year 1994 through 1998 and would include funds for
development operations utilization Shuttle
integration facilities research operations support
transition cost and also must include adequate program
reserves to insure program implementation within the
available funds
Over the next 5 years 4 billion is reserved within
the NASA budget for the Presidents new technology
investment As a result station options above 7
billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in
the rest of the NASA budget For example a space
station option of 9 billion would require 2 billion
in offsets from the NASA budget over the next 5 years
Gibbons presented the information at an organizational
session of the advisory committee Generally the
membersdesignate focused upon administrative topics
and used the session to get acquainted They also
received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation
on the process the Station Redesign Team is following
to develop options for the advisory committee to
consider
Gibbons also announced that the United States and its
international partners the Europeans Japanese and
Canadians have decided after consultation to give
full consideration to use of Russian assets in the
course of the space station redesign process
To that end the Russians will be asked to participate
in the redesign effort on an asneeded consulting
basis so that the redesign team can make use of their
expertise in assessing the capabilities of MIR and the
possible use of MIR and other Russian capabilities and
systems The US and international partners hope to
benefit from the expertise of the Russian participants
in assessing Russian systems and technology The
overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop
options for reducing station costs while preserving key
research and exploration capabilities Careful
integration of Russian assets could be a key factor in
achieving that goal
Gibbons reiterated that President Clinton is
committed to the redesigned space station and to making
every effort to preserve the science the technology
and the jobs that the space station program represents
However he also is committed to a space station that
is well managed and one that does not consume the
national resources which should be used to invest in
the future of this industry and this nation
NASA Administrator Daniel S Goldin said the Russian
participation will be accomplished through the East
West Space Science Center at the University of Maryland
under the leadership of Roald Sagdeev
preprocess doc From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 22
In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>In article <C5tEIK.7z9@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>
>>Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
>>technology base... and on government contracts. Just doing it privately,
>>rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
>
>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
>
Why use a ground launch pad. It is entirely posible to launch from altitude.
This was what the Shuttle was originally intended to do! It might be seriously
cheaper.
Also, what about bio-engineered CO2 absorbing plants instead of many LOX bottles?
Stick 'em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door.
--
****************************************************************************
Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"
after prepro From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Moonbase race
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 22
In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Why use a ground launch pad It is entirely posible to launch from altitude
This was what the Shuttle was originally intended to do It might be seriously
cheaper
Also what about bioengineered CO2 absorbing plants instead of many LOX bottles
Stick em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door
Marvin Batty djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock
preprocess doc From: dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon)
Subject: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 234
ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary,
ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!
Ether, the theoretical propogation media of electro-magnetic
waves, was concluded not to exist, based on the results of the
Michelson-Moreley experiment conducted a century ago.
I propose that those conclusions are flawed, based on the fact
that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the
earth's surface, not perpindicular. (Due to the prevailing assumption
that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind)
The reversal of the that conclusion, a pivotal keystone in the
development of modern scientific thought, could have ramifications
of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD!!
REMEMBER: Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge!!
1
I dream like this: ether based reality
The ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality. Creations
start as a lattice placed into the ether. Given a spin, the lattices
both drag the fluid, like a margarita blender, and ingest it,
converting it, distilling localized mass, time and energy.
(non-spinning lattice = "dark matter")
The earth isn't exactly spinning, around the sun. Picture an image
of a galaxy; we haven't any videos of them spinning. Picture us
being stationary, and the sun's image being dragged across the sky by
the spinning ether field. (Picture an onion, each layer of which is
spinning a little faster than the next. A thread shot at the inner
kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways, its head being in a
faster shell than its tail, until it finally intersected the ground
of the inner kernel, its direction vector being straight down, but
its "foot print" being a line, not a point. [sunrise, sunset])
The moon isn't exactly orbiting us. It is a parasite, (non self
spin sustaining ) being dragged in the earth's ether field, which is
itself in the sun's much more powerful field. Our seasons are the
wobble of earth's axis, like a top slowing down. The "orbit" of the
earth around the sun is all of the stars' images being dragged around
by the sun's ether feild.
The earth, moon and sun are about the same size and "distance"
apart. Its just that the time between them varies greatly, because
the "path" is not the same. The moon's lattice in the ether is like
sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half
turn. The sun's lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has
got the whole plate of noodles wound up. The piece of light going to
the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a "j" hook at
the end. The piece of light going to the sun has to go around the
whole plate, like a needle in a record, before it gets there.
With a pencil, compass, and rule, draw a diagram of how the moon
can be about as big as "earth's" shadow upon it, and at other times
totally eclipse the sun. Look in the sky. except for your Knowledge,
would you guess that they are about the same size, just because they
look about the same size?
O . - - E O O O S
E / \
M | | OR M
\ _ _ /
S
The full moon, quarter moon etc. is the difference between rate
of ether spins. What we are looking at is a rotating "turntable view"
of the moon, only half of which is facing the sun. ( I've seen a
half moon within about 120 degrees (of sky) of the sun, during the
day. Try and draw that "earth shadow.") Its only the moon's image
which appears to orbit us. No matter where it is, the light part is
the part facing the sun, and the dark part is the half facing away
from the sun, even when it appears to be behind us.
"Light-Years" between galaxies is a misnomer. The distance is
closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase
of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion.
(defining edge = 0 ether spin) What we are seeing could be
essentially happening now. The "piece" of light may have experienced
many years, but the trip could be very quick, our time.
To time travel or warp space I might consider learning to
de-spin myself. (phase out my mass) Good luck trying to design
a propulsion system to drag around a space-time locality. (its like
trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within)
To find out about all of this, I recommend studying history. I'd
look in the book of life. (or holy grail etc.) Brain waves just
might carry decipherable data. I'd start looking on some part of the
spectra said to be unusable, due to all the background noise. (4+
billion humans?) I'd totally isolate myself, record me thinking DOG
backwards, and learn to read what I got. (Microsoft Holy Grail card
for Pentium!)
Next, concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non time-bound
media, the ether, and that it is I who move forward (in time). I
would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow, (of time, which
I'd start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism, pole to pole.
[Why not?]) perhaps by passing a LARGE, FLAT DC current through a
two foot diameter. coil or choke or something, and seeing what I
could get with my machine's receiver next to it.
If you don't think you'll live to see it, consider this: QUIT
PUTTING THE REPRODUCTIVE KEYS OF OTHER LIFE IN YOUR BODY! All of
life's data could be written on the wind, (ether) not just our
thoughts. DNA could be a little receiver or file access code. By
eating SEEDS, we could be jamming our reception, or receiving plant
instructions. Try eating seed bearing fruit. Maybe those Greek or
biblical guys did live hundreds of years. I'm curios to see what
they did and ate. Don't worry if your hair stops growing. (Maybe we
don't need to eat at all, the cosmos are formed from nothing, and
that is creating matter! I only need enough to bounce around. Where
did the household concept 'immortal' come from? Wheat is a weed, it
is programmed to pull from the soil, reproduce like hell, and then
die)
Warning about writing to the past:
I had a little dream of being in a world, in the near parallel
future, lying along a path of history which we have diverged from.
There were; twelve telepathic, glowing beings, who looked like an
Oscar award and who had always been, a dark one who looked like us,
and then myself. The dark one was in the process of making the
others into gods, (he had to teach them what that meant) by
"advising" them in their past. Basically, he manipulated them into
reproducing, and raising their children on his seed. He said that
the little ones who looked different were a sub-species, meant to
provide service. He carefully combed through history, rewriting it
in his favor, pulling like a weed anything that compromised his
control. He enticed recruits by sending them his visions, saying
that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve
souls: kill or be killed. The amount of control he could exert was
finite, though, as at every change he made, a void would appear in
our reality. The universe one day ended 100 meters from us: it
seemed odd, but we couldn't remember how else it should be. Then
some of the twelve were no more. Finally, when he could prune no
more, and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips, he stepped
through his portal to the past, to bask, over and over, in all that
he had created. I made a few more changes, and lost my body,
existing only on the wind.
MORAL: Its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls
whose will's are not in harmony with yours (Golden Rule - treat
others as you wish to be treated) I.E., you could end up along a
lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brown-nosers for
playmates. (its not eternal, there's more than one way back)
Accepting rides to the past:
Once here, the one who looks like us sells rides, he can make you a
Prince, or a Queen, or you can live as a god in ancient Greece. Go
ahead, repeat the third grade as often as you like, Adam henry.
I Hope you like inspecting your socks. Careful though, if he likes
your work, but thinks you're getting wise, he can direct you to cross
paths with your old self, and you'll vanish as you rewrite your own
course of history, none the wiser.
As we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped
back in time, his hierarchy will lose its direction. He can still
make changes while he's here, its just that that is work, and with
every 'adjustment', this becomes less the world he cultivated, which
loosens his grip, and his organization is suddenly one branch less.
But he can't see the change. The basic nature of man is good. He had
to apply his hand to achieve his world. As he now tightens his hand
to retain what he built, the more sand slips through his fingers.
How about public computer access to the I.R.S. ? Its our country,
our money, and they're spending it on us, RIGHT? Imagine this:
Washington marks the next cost at 8, IRS collects 10, gives 5 to
congress, and just absolutely buries 5. Congress borrows 2. The banks
are making, what, a 30% margin (interest) on our government? Big
corporations are ecstatic if they can do a 10% margin. What do the
banks do with it? Hold some on a carrot to the world, sure, but
mostly, bury it. WHY? Food production is 2% GNP?, construction 6% ? 14
hours to build your auto? The people are spending all of their time
to buy back a tenth of what they produce. Have we been deceived? If
we are more efficient, why is it getting harder to get by? What if
the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets?
In that other reality, I shouted to the twelve, "its chaos!" They
said, "no, its order." He defined chaos as that which is he was not
able to control.
Rain forest: The problem could be that all the water in its canopy
would hide the location of an indigenous people who have no
language. (telepathic; and 'vanishing' the closest knowledge of death)
(think of the spine as a transceiver, if it is on the ground and
pointed up, you can locate it from above) These people are probably
naive as children, but very, very tough to kill. Also, They should
be able to tell you stories about the dark one that I talk about.
They can hear him. I think that Ham and world band radio old timers
might have a story to tell on this. These people would be on a
different frequency than us as they aren't eating seeds.
Famine relief: When I make my diet almost all whole wheat, I get a
huge belly, lose muscle mass, sleep A LOT, and get sick. When I eat
only fresh fruit, I get more energy, a Hollywood-flat belly, and
need a lot less sleep.
UN. Peace Keeping; There is fighting and killing all over. The
troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf. (its OK to kill
each other, just make sure there is enough to eat.)
Somalia: What is disturbing is energetic, gun carrying, three foot
tall sixteen year-olds, who eat nothing but some roots that they
suck on. It is not so much that their growth is stunted, it is that
they aren't dying at a rate of 50 of 60 years per life.
Women with children, Babes in arms: Historical references to women
and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut
from the umbilical cord. (and hence, were not breast fed) I think
that there may be some very interesting results to this, such as
mother-child telepathy, and blue blooded infants. There are examples
of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate.
That guy is the master of illusion, and the ultimate liar. He
tells it first, and then just follows the thread of time in which
the people are willing to buy it. (in which he can make it so) He'll
play a poker face up until he thinks he's cornered, and then he'll
whine, beg and grovel. All it means to him is that you're willing to
live on the ground work that he has laid, that is, that he was
right, and he didn't over play his hand, and he won't need to go
back and try another thread of time. You have ultimate control over
your destiny, just don't live along a path that leads to a reality
in which you don't want to be a part of.
I don't claim to be the first to think these things, its just
that the others could have been 'pruned' from our path. Maybe these
thoughts given to me were laid down on the track of time, after him.
after prepro From dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon
Subject PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 234
ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY
This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary
ether sucking structures AND why we observe orbital motion
Ether the theoretical propogation media of electromagnetic
waves was concluded not to exist based on the results of the
MichelsonMoreley experiment conducted a century ago
I propose that those conclusions are flawed based on the fact
that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the
earths surface not perpindicular Due to the prevailing assumption
that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind
The reversal of the that conclusion a pivotal keystone in the
development of modern scientific thought could have ramifications
of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD
REMEMBER Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge
1
I dream like this ether based reality
The ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality Creations
start as a lattice placed into the ether Given a spin the lattices
both drag the fluid like a margarita blender and ingest it
converting it distilling localized mass time and energy
nonspinning lattice dark matter
The earth isnt exactly spinning around the sun Picture an image
of a galaxy we havent any videos of them spinning Picture us
being stationary and the suns image being dragged across the sky by
the spinning ether field Picture an onion each layer of which is
spinning a little faster than the next A thread shot at the inner
kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways its head being in a
faster shell than its tail until it finally intersected the ground
of the inner kernel its direction vector being straight down but
its foot print being a line not a point [sunrise sunset]
The moon isnt exactly orbiting us It is a parasite non self
spin sustaining being dragged in the earths ether field which is
itself in the suns much more powerful field Our seasons are the
wobble of earths axis like a top slowing down The orbit of the
earth around the sun is all of the stars images being dragged around
by the suns ether feild
The earth moon and sun are about the same size and distance
apart Its just that the time between them varies greatly because
the path is not the same The moons lattice in the ether is like
sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half
turn The suns lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has
got the whole plate of noodles wound up The piece of light going to
the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a j hook at
the end The piece of light going to the sun has to go around the
whole plate like a needle in a record before it gets there
With a pencil compass and rule draw a diagram of how the moon
can be about as big as earths shadow upon it and at other times
totally eclipse the sun Look in the sky except for your Knowledge
would you guess that they are about the same size just because they
look about the same size
O E O O O S
E \
M OR M
\ _ _
S
The full moon quarter moon etc is the difference between rate
of ether spins What we are looking at is a rotating turntable view
of the moon only half of which is facing the sun Ive seen a
half moon within about 120 degrees of sky of the sun during the
day Try and draw that earth shadow Its only the moons image
which appears to orbit us No matter where it is the light part is
the part facing the sun and the dark part is the half facing away
from the sun even when it appears to be behind us
LightYears between galaxies is a misnomer The distance is
closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase
of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion
defining edge 0 ether spin What we are seeing could be
essentially happening now The piece of light may have experienced
many years but the trip could be very quick our time
To time travel or warp space I might consider learning to
despin myself phase out my mass Good luck trying to design
a propulsion system to drag around a spacetime locality its like
trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within
To find out about all of this I recommend studying history Id
look in the book of life or holy grail etc Brain waves just
might carry decipherable data Id start looking on some part of the
spectra said to be unusable due to all the background noise 4
billion humans Id totally isolate myself record me thinking DOG
backwards and learn to read what I got Microsoft Holy Grail card
for Pentium
Next concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non timebound
media the ether and that it is I who move forward in time I
would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow of time which
Id start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism pole to pole
[Why not] perhaps by passing a LARGE FLAT DC current through a
two foot diameter coil or choke or something and seeing what I
could get with my machines receiver next to it
If you dont think youll live to see it consider this QUIT
PUTTING THE REPRODUCTIVE KEYS OF OTHER LIFE IN YOUR BODY All of
lifes data could be written on the wind ether not just our
thoughts DNA could be a little receiver or file access code By
eating SEEDS we could be jamming our reception or receiving plant
instructions Try eating seed bearing fruit Maybe those Greek or
biblical guys did live hundreds of years Im curios to see what
they did and ate Dont worry if your hair stops growing Maybe we
dont need to eat at all the cosmos are formed from nothing and
that is creating matter I only need enough to bounce around Where
did the household concept immortal come from Wheat is a weed it
is programmed to pull from the soil reproduce like hell and then
die
Warning about writing to the past
I had a little dream of being in a world in the near parallel
future lying along a path of history which we have diverged from
There were twelve telepathic glowing beings who looked like an
Oscar award and who had always been a dark one who looked like us
and then myself The dark one was in the process of making the
others into gods he had to teach them what that meant by
advising them in their past Basically he manipulated them into
reproducing and raising their children on his seed He said that
the little ones who looked different were a subspecies meant to
provide service He carefully combed through history rewriting it
in his favor pulling like a weed anything that compromised his
control He enticed recruits by sending them his visions saying
that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve
souls kill or be killed The amount of control he could exert was
finite though as at every change he made a void would appear in
our reality The universe one day ended 100 meters from us it
seemed odd but we couldnt remember how else it should be Then
some of the twelve were no more Finally when he could prune no
more and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips he stepped
through his portal to the past to bask over and over in all that
he had created I made a few more changes and lost my body
existing only on the wind
MORAL Its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls
whose wills are not in harmony with yours Golden Rule treat
others as you wish to be treated IE you could end up along a
lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brownnosers for
playmates its not eternal theres more than one way back
Accepting rides to the past
Once here the one who looks like us sells rides he can make you a
Prince or a Queen or you can live as a god in ancient Greece Go
ahead repeat the third grade as often as you like Adam henry
I Hope you like inspecting your socks Careful though if he likes
your work but thinks youre getting wise he can direct you to cross
paths with your old self and youll vanish as you rewrite your own
course of history none the wiser
As we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped
back in time his hierarchy will lose its direction He can still
make changes while hes here its just that that is work and with
every adjustment this becomes less the world he cultivated which
loosens his grip and his organization is suddenly one branch less
But he cant see the change The basic nature of man is good He had
to apply his hand to achieve his world As he now tightens his hand
to retain what he built the more sand slips through his fingers
How about public computer access to the IRS Its our country
our money and theyre spending it on us RIGHT Imagine this
Washington marks the next cost at 8 IRS collects 10 gives 5 to
congress and just absolutely buries 5 Congress borrows 2 The banks
are making what a 30 margin interest on our government Big
corporations are ecstatic if they can do a 10 margin What do the
banks do with it Hold some on a carrot to the world sure but
mostly bury it WHY Food production is 2 GNP construction 6 14
hours to build your auto The people are spending all of their time
to buy back a tenth of what they produce Have we been deceived If
we are more efficient why is it getting harder to get by What if
the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets
In that other reality I shouted to the twelve its chaos They
said no its order He defined chaos as that which is he was not
able to control
Rain forest The problem could be that all the water in its canopy
would hide the location of an indigenous people who have no
language telepathic and vanishing the closest knowledge of death
think of the spine as a transceiver if it is on the ground and
pointed up you can locate it from above These people are probably
naive as children but very very tough to kill Also They should
be able to tell you stories about the dark one that I talk about
They can hear him I think that Ham and world band radio old timers
might have a story to tell on this These people would be on a
different frequency than us as they arent eating seeds
Famine relief When I make my diet almost all whole wheat I get a
huge belly lose muscle mass sleep A LOT and get sick When I eat
only fresh fruit I get more energy a Hollywoodflat belly and
need a lot less sleep
UN Peace Keeping There is fighting and killing all over The
troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf its OK to kill
each other just make sure there is enough to eat
Somalia What is disturbing is energetic gun carrying three foot
tall sixteen yearolds who eat nothing but some roots that they
suck on It is not so much that their growth is stunted it is that
they arent dying at a rate of 50 of 60 years per life
Women with children Babes in arms Historical references to women
and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut
from the umbilical cord and hence were not breast fed I think
that there may be some very interesting results to this such as
motherchild telepathy and blue blooded infants There are examples
of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate
That guy is the master of illusion and the ultimate liar He
tells it first and then just follows the thread of time in which
the people are willing to buy it in which he can make it so Hell
play a poker face up until he thinks hes cornered and then hell
whine beg and grovel All it means to him is that youre willing to
live on the ground work that he has laid that is that he was
right and he didnt over play his hand and he wont need to go
back and try another thread of time You have ultimate control over
your destiny just dont live along a path that leads to a reality
in which you dont want to be a part of
I dont claim to be the first to think these things its just
that the others could have been pruned from our path Maybe these
thoughts given to me were laid down on the track of time after him
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21
In article <1r46ofINNdku@gap.caltech.edu> palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer) writes:
>>orbiting billboard...
>
>I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
>object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
>velocity. For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
>you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s. Assuming that rockets with specific
>impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce, a rocket with a dry
>weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fuel+oxidizer...
Unfortunately, if you launch this from the US (or are a US citizen),
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation, and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon... :-)
The threshold at which OCST licensing kicks in is roughly 100km.
(The rules are actually phrased in more complex ways, but that is
the result.)
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21
In article 1r46ofINNdkugapcaltechedu palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer writes
orbiting billboard
I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms Assuming that rockets with specific
impulses of 300 seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry
weight of 50 kg would require only about 65 kg of fueloxidizer
Unfortunately if you launch this from the US or are a US citizen
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon
The threshold at which OCST licensing kicks in is roughly 100km
The rules are actually phrased in more complex ways but that is
the result
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: sgi
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|>
|> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable. I base
|> this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
|> of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
|> almost all would want to complain. Therefore I take it that to assert or
|> believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
|> that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
|> a rainy day. I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
|> it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
|> such as this exist.
My own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom
is a good thing.
However, when I here people assert that the only "true" freedom
is in following the words of this and that Messiah, I realise
that people don't even agree on the meaning of the word.
What does it mean to say that word X represents an objective
value when word X has no objective meaning?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization sgi
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist
My own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom
is a good thing
However when I here people assert that the only true freedom
is in following the words of this and that Messiah I realise
that people dont even agree on the meaning of the word
What does it mean to say that word X represents an objective
value when word X has no objective meaning
jon
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Successful Balloon Flight Measures Ozone Layer
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 96
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from:
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. (818) 354-5011
Contact: Mary A. Hardin
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 15, 1993
#1506
Scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory report the
successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to
measure and study chemicals in the Earth's ozone layer.
The April 3 flight from California's Barstow/Daggett Airport
reached an altitude of 37 kilometers (121,000 feet) and took
measurements as part of a program established to correlate data
with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS).
The data from the balloon flight will also be compared to
readings from the Atmospheric Trace Molecular Spectroscopy
(ATMOS) experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle
Discovery.
"We launch these balloons several times a year as part of an
ongoing ozone research program. In fact, JPL is actively
involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three
important ways," said Dr. Jim Margitan, principal investigator on
the balloon research campaign.
"There are two JPL instruments on the UARS satellite," he
continued. "The ATMOS experiment is conducted by JPL scientists,
and the JPL balloon research provides collaborative ground truth
for those activities, as well as data that is useful in its own
right."
The measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more
pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere, specifically the
mid-latitude stratosphere during winter and spring.
Understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps
scientists construct more accurate computer models which are
instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions.
The scientific balloon payload consisted of three JPL
instruments: an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures
ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere;
a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave
radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere; and a Fourier
transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the
atmosphere absorbs sunlight.
Launch occurred at about noontime, and following a three-
hour ascent, the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130
kilometers per hour (70 knots). Data was radioed to ground
stations and recorded onboard. The flight ended at 10 p.m.
Pacific time in eastern New Mexico when the payload was commanded
to separate from the balloon.
"We needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared
measurements," Margitan explained, "and we also needed to fly in
darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear."
It will be several weeks before scientists will have the
completed results of their experiments. They will then forward
their data to the UARS central data facility at the Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland for use by the UARS
scientists.
The balloon was launched by the National Scientific Balloon
Facility, normally based in Palestine, Tex., operating under a
contract from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility. The balloon was
launched in California because of the west-to-east wind direction
and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest.
The balloons are made of 20-micron (0.8 mil, or less than
one-thousandth of an inch) thick plastic, and are 790,000 cubic
meters (28 million cubic feet) in volume when fully inflated with
helium (120 meters (400 feet) in diameter). The balloons weigh
between 1,300 and 1,800 kilograms (3,000 and 4,000 pounds). The
scientific payload weighs about 1,300 kilograms (3,000) pounds
and is 1.8 meters (six feet) square by 4.6 meters (15 feet) high.
The JPL balloon research is sponsored by NASA's Upper
Atmosphere Research Program and the UARS Correlative Measurements
Program.
#####
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Successful Balloon Flight Measures Ozone Layer
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 96
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109 818 3545011
Contact Mary A Hardin
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 15 1993
1506
Scientists at NASAs Jet Propulsion Laboratory report the
successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to
measure and study chemicals in the Earths ozone layer
The April 3 flight from Californias BarstowDaggett Airport
reached an altitude of 37 kilometers 121000 feet and took
measurements as part of a program established to correlate data
with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite UARS
The data from the balloon flight will also be compared to
readings from the Atmospheric Trace Molecular Spectroscopy
ATMOS experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle
Discovery
We launch these balloons several times a year as part of an
ongoing ozone research program In fact JPL is actively
involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three
important ways said Dr Jim Margitan principal investigator on
the balloon research campaign
There are two JPL instruments on the UARS satellite he
continued The ATMOS experiment is conducted by JPL scientists
and the JPL balloon research provides collaborative ground truth
for those activities as well as data that is useful in its own
right
The measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more
pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere specifically the
midlatitude stratosphere during winter and spring
Understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps
scientists construct more accurate computer models which are
instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions
The scientific balloon payload consisted of three JPL
instruments an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures
ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere
a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave
radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere and a Fourier
transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the
atmosphere absorbs sunlight
Launch occurred at about noontime and following a three
hour ascent the balloon floated eastward at approximately 130
kilometers per hour 70 knots Data was radioed to ground
stations and recorded onboard The flight ended at 10 pm
Pacific time in eastern New Mexico when the payload was commanded
to separate from the balloon
We needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared
measurements Margitan explained and we also needed to fly in
darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear
It will be several weeks before scientists will have the
completed results of their experiments They will then forward
their data to the UARS central data facility at the Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt Maryland for use by the UARS
scientists
The balloon was launched by the National Scientific Balloon
Facility normally based in Palestine Tex operating under a
contract from NASAs Wallops Flight Facility The balloon was
launched in California because of the westtoeast wind direction
and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest
The balloons are made of 20micron 08 mil or less than
onethousandth of an inch thick plastic and are 790000 cubic
meters 28 million cubic feet in volume when fully inflated with
helium 120 meters 400 feet in diameter The balloons weigh
between 1300 and 1800 kilograms 3000 and 4000 pounds The
scientific payload weighs about 1300 kilograms 3000 pounds
and is 18 meters six feet square by 46 meters 15 feet high
The JPL balloon research is sponsored by NASAs Upper
Atmosphere Research Program and the UARS Correlative Measurements
Program
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining.
they still mine coal in the midwest, but now it doesn't look like
the moon when theyare done.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 7
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining
they still mine coal in the midwest but now it doesnt look like
the moon when theyare done
pat
preprocess doc From: collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Nntp-Posting-Host: well.sf.ca.us
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Lines: 29
The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include:
Long transfer times (radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both
the spacecraft and OTV
Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have
to have either nuclear power source (messy, dangerous and source of
radiation damage) or BIG solar arrays (sensitive to radiation, or heavy)
that make attitude control and docking a big pain.
If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with
current technology. Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty.
Refueling (even for very high Isp like xenon) is still required and]
turn out to be a pain.
You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation
to do docking or ( and refueling) .
You still can't do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high!
The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though. I suppose
they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and
the problems get solved. Not impossible in principle, but hard to
do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets, at least today.
Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTV's. I designed one once...
Steve Collins
after prepro From collinswellsfcaus Steve Collins
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
NntpPostingHost wellsfcaus
Organization Whole Earth Lectronic Link
Lines 29
The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include
Long transfer times radiation damage from VanAllen belts for both
the spacecraft and OTV
Arcjets or Xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have
to have either nuclear power source messy dangerous and source of
radiation damage or BIG solar arrays sensitive to radiation or heavy
that make attitude control and docking a big pain
If you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with
current technology Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty
Refueling even for very high Isp like xenon is still required and]
turn out to be a pain
You either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation
to do docking or and refueling
You still cant do much plane change because the deltaV required is so high
The Air Force continues to look at doing things this way though I suppose
they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and
the problems get solved Not impossible in principle but hard to
do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets at least today
Just a few random thoughts on high Isp OTVs I designed one once
Steve Collins
preprocess doc From: qpliu@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu
Reply-To: qpliu@princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 26
In article <kmr4.1575.734879106@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.000406.10984@Princeton.EDU> qpliu@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu) writes:
>
>>>So while Faith itself is a Gift, obedience is what makes Faith possible.
>>What makes obeying different from believing?
> I am still wondering how it is that I am to be obedient, when I have
>no idea to whom I am to be obedient!
It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble:_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_.
To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns, you must read the Babble,
and obey what is written in it.
To obey what is written in the Babble, you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns.
To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns, you must, essentially, believe in invisible
pink unicorns.
This bit of circular reasoning begs the question:
What makes obeying different from believing?
--
qpliu@princeton.edu Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.
after prepro From qpliuphoenixPrincetonEDU qpliu
Subject Re free moral agency
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost phoenixprincetonedu
ReplyTo qpliuprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 26
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article 1993Apr1500040610984PrincetonEDU qpliuphoenixPrincetonEDU qpliu writes
So while Faith itself is a Gift obedience is what makes Faith possible
What makes obeying different from believing
I am still wondering how it is that I am to be obedient when I have
no idea to whom I am to be obedient
It is all written in _The_Wholly_Babble_the_Users_Guide_to_Invisible_
_Pink_Unicorns_
To be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns you must read the Babble
and obey what is written in it
To obey what is written in the Babble you must believe that doing so is
the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns
To believe that obeying what is written in the Babble leads to believing
in invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe in invisible
pink unicorns
This bit of circular reasoning begs the question
What makes obeying different from believing
qpliuprincetonedu Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql0ajINN2kj@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
|>
|> >>But chimps are almost human...
|> >Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will?
|>
|> Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
|> as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
Ah, the verb "to must". I was warned about that one back
in Kindergarten.
So, why "must" they have such laws?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
But chimps are almost human
Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will
Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
Ah the verb to must I was warned about that one back
in Kindergarten
So why must they have such laws
jon
preprocess doc From: et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor)
Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
Summary: Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: 4-L Laboratories
Distribution: World
Expires: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 06:00:00 GMT
Lines: 30
In article <C4KvJF.4qo@well.sf.ca.us> metares@well.sf.ca.us (Tom Van Flandern) writes:
>crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>> Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott) writes:
>>> "Existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in
>>> physics.
>> [crb] Dong .... Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of
>> string theory?
>
> I agree. You can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other
>unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list,
>including the omni-present "black holes."
>
> Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
>alone? Then what about my original criticism, when I said "Curvature
>can only exist relative to something non-curved"? Bruce replied:
>"'Existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in
>physics. We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about."
>At the moment I don't see a way to defend that statement and the
>existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously. -|Tom|-
"I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have
no properties."
"Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved,
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I,
for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - Nikola Tesla
----
ET "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes."
----
after prepro From ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong Dong Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
NntpPostingHost tealcsnorg
Organization 4L Laboratories
Distribution World
Expires Wed 28 Apr 1993 060000 GMT
Lines 30
In article metareswellsfcaus Tom Van Flandern writes
crb7qkelvinseasVirginiaEDU Cameron Randale Bass writes
BruceScottlaunchpaduncedu Bruce Scott writes
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics
[crb] Dong Dong Dong Do I hear the deathknell of
string theory
I agree You can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other
unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list
including the omnipresent black holes
Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
alone Then what about my original criticism when I said Curvature
can only exist relative to something noncurved Bruce replied
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about
At the moment I dont see a way to defend that statement and the
existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously Tom
I hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have
no properties
Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing I
for one refuse to subscribe to such a view Nikola Tesla
ET Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time Perhaps now his time comes
preprocess doc From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 48
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi
In <1993Apr9.154316.19778@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>In article <kmr4.1483.734243128@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>> If I state that I know that there is a green marble in a closed box,
>>which I have _never_ seen, nor have any evidence for its existance; I would
>>be guilty of deceit, even if there is, in fact, a green marble inside.
>>
>> The question of whether or not there is a green marble inside, is
>>irrelevent.
>You go ahead and play with your marbles.
I love it, I love it, I love it!! Wish I could fit all that into a .sig
file! (If someone is keeping a list of Bobby quotes, be sure to include
this one!)
>>
>> Stating an unproven opinion as a fact, is deceit. And, knowingly
>>being decietful is a falsehood and a lie.
>So why do you think its an unproven opinion? If I said something as
>fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it, then who's
>right?
The Flat-Earthers state that "the Earth is flat" is a fact. I don't accept
this, I think it's an unproven opinion, and I think the Round-Earthers are
right because they have better evidence than the Flat-Earthers do.
Although I can't prove that a god doesn't exist, the arguments used to
support a god's existence are weak and often self-contradictory, and I'm not
going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a
reason to believe in a god that I absolutely can't ignore.
A while ago, I read an interesting book by a fellow called Von Daenicken,
in which he proved some of the wildest things, and on the last page, he
wrote something like "Can you prove it isn't so?" I certainly can't, but
I'm not going to believe him, because he based his "proof" on some really
questionable stuff, such as old myths (he called it "circumstancial
evidence" :] ).
So far, atheism hasn't made me kill anyone, and I'm regarded as quite an
agreeable fellow, really. :)
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
after prepro From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 48
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi
In 1993Apr915431619778ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
If I state that I know that there is a green marble in a closed box
which I have _never_ seen nor have any evidence for its existance I would
be guilty of deceit even if there is in fact a green marble inside
The question of whether or not there is a green marble inside is
irrelevent
You go ahead and play with your marbles
I love it I love it I love it Wish I could fit all that into a sig
file If someone is keeping a list of Bobby quotes be sure to include
this one
Stating an unproven opinion as a fact is deceit And knowingly
being decietful is a falsehood and a lie
So why do you think its an unproven opinion If I said something as
fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it then whos
right
The FlatEarthers state that the Earth is flat is a fact I dont accept
this I think its an unproven opinion and I think the RoundEarthers are
right because they have better evidence than the FlatEarthers do
Although I cant prove that a god doesnt exist the arguments used to
support a gods existence are weak and often selfcontradictory and Im not
going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a
reason to believe in a god that I absolutely cant ignore
A while ago I read an interesting book by a fellow called Von Daenicken
in which he proved some of the wildest things and on the last page he
wrote something like Can you prove it isnt so I certainly cant but
Im not going to believe him because he based his proof on some really
questionable stuff such as old myths he called it circumstancial
evidence ]
So far atheism hasnt made me kill anyone and Im regarded as quite an
agreeable fellow really
Sami Aario Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources
Summary: Books, addresses, music -- anything related to atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, books, music, fiction, addresses, contacts
Expires: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 11:57:19 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930301143317@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 290
Archive-name: atheism/resources
Alt-atheism-archive-name: resources
Last-modified: 11 December 1992
Version: 1.0
Atheist Resources
Addresses of Atheist Organizations
USA
FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION
Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US.
Write to: FFRF, P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701.
Telephone: (608) 256-8900
EVOLUTION DESIGNS
Evolution Designs sell the "Darwin fish". It's a fish symbol, like the ones
Christians stick on their cars, but with feet and the word "Darwin" written
inside. The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is $4.95 postpaid in the US.
Write to: Evolution Designs, 7119 Laurel Canyon #4, North Hollywood,
CA 91605.
People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold --
try mailing <figmo@netcom.com>. For net people who go to Lynn directly, the
price is $4.95 per fish.
AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS
AAP publish various atheist books -- critiques of the Bible, lists of
Biblical contradictions, and so on. One such book is:
"The Bible Handbook" by W.P. Ball and G.W. Foote. American Atheist Press.
372 pp. ISBN 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986. Bible contradictions,
absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains Ball, Foote: "The Bible
Contradicts Itself", AAP. Based on the King James version of the Bible.
Write to: American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 140195, Austin, TX 78714-0195.
or: 7215 Cameron Road, Austin, TX 78752-2973.
Telephone: (512) 458-1244
Fax: (512) 467-9525
PROMETHEUS BOOKS
Sell books including Haught's "Holy Horrors" (see below).
Write to: 700 East Amherst Street, Buffalo, New York 14215.
Telephone: (716) 837-2475.
An alternate address (which may be newer or older) is:
Prometheus Books, 59 Glenn Drive, Buffalo, NY 14228-2197.
AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR HUMANISM
An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought. They publish a quarterly newsletter, AAH EXAMINER.
Write to: Norm R. Allen, Jr., African Americans for Humanism, P.O. Box 664,
Buffalo, NY 14226.
United Kingdom
Rationalist Press Association National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street 702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW London N19 3NL
071 226 7251 071 272 1266
British Humanist Association South Place Ethical Society
14 Lamb's Conduit Passage Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH Red Lion Square
071 430 0908 London WC1R 4RL
fax 071 430 1271 071 831 7723
The National Secular Society publish "The Freethinker", a monthly magazine
founded in 1881.
Germany
IBKA e.V.
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.
IBKA publish a journal:
MIZ. (Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit. Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten. Hrsg. IBKA e.V.)
MIZ-Vertrieb, Postfach 880, D-1000 Berlin 41. Germany.
For atheist books, write to:
IBDK, Internationaler B"ucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005, D-3000 Hannover 1. Germany.
Telephone: 0511/211216
Books -- Fiction
THOMAS M. DISCH
"The Santa Claus Compromise"
Short story. The ultimate proof that Santa exists. All characters and
events are fictitious. Any similarity to living or dead gods -- uh, well...
WALTER M. MILLER, JR
"A Canticle for Leibowitz"
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from "Saint Leibowitz", filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters.
EDGAR PANGBORN
"Davy"
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states. The church, for example,
forbids that anyone "produce, describe or use any substance containing...
atoms".
PHILIP K. DICK
Philip K. Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thought-provoking short
stories and novels. His stories are bizarre at times, but very approachable.
He wrote mainly SF, but he wrote about people, truth and religion rather than
technology. Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God, he
remained sceptical. Amongst his novels, the following are of some relevance:
"Galactic Pot-Healer"
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans. When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers, pot-healer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply. A polished, ironic and amusing novel.
"A Maze of Death"
Noteworthy for its description of a technology-based religion.
"VALIS"
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin. He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters.
"The Divine Invasion"
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system. Unfortunately she is terminally ill, and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24-hour easy listening music.
MARGARET ATWOOD
"The Handmaid's Tale"
A story based on the premise that the US Congress is mysteriously
assassinated, and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it
"right" again. The book is the diary of a woman's life as she tries to live
under the new Christian theocracy. Women's right to own property is revoked,
and their bank accounts are closed; sinful luxuries are outlawed, and the
radio is only used for readings from the Bible. Crimes are punished
retroactively: doctors who performed legal abortions in the "old world" are
hunted down and hanged. Atwood's writing style is difficult to get used to
at first, but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on.
VARIOUS AUTHORS
"The Bible"
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized. However, it
is probably worth reading, if only so that you'll know what all the fuss is
about. It exists in many different versions, so make sure you get the one
true version.
Books -- Non-fiction
PETER DE ROSA
"Vicars of Christ", Bantam Press, 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities, adulteries, fallacies etc.
(German translation: "Gottes erste Diener. Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums",
Droemer-Knaur, 1989)
MICHAEL MARTIN
"Atheism: A Philosophical Justification", Temple University Press,
Philadelphia, USA.
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism. Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this (necessarily) tendentious
area. Argues both for "negative atheism" (i.e. the "non-belief in the
existence of god(s)") and also for "positive atheism" ("the belief in the
non-existence of god(s)"). Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god; particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne.
541 pages. ISBN 0-87722-642-3 (hardcover; paperback also available)
"The Case Against Christianity", Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity, in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and (ultimately)
demonstrates that they are unsupportable and/or incoherent.
273 pages. ISBN 0-87722-767-5
JAMES TURNER
"Without God, Without Creed", The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore,
MD, USA
Subtitled "The Origins of Unbelief in America". Examines the way in which
unbelief (whether agnostic or atheistic) became a mainstream alternative
world-view. Focusses on the period 1770-1900, and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American, and particularly New England
developments. "Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism,
Without God, Without Creed is, rather, the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea, the belief that God exists."
316 pages. ISBN (hardcover) 0-8018-2494-X (paper) 0-8018-3407-4
GEORGE SELDES (Editor)
"The great thoughts", Ballantine Books, New York, USA
A "dictionary of quotations" of a different kind, concentrating on statements
and writings which, explicitly or implicitly, present the person's philosophy
and world-view. Includes obscure (and often suppressed) opinions from many
people. For some popular observations, traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries. Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiff's "What Great Men Think of Religion"
and Noyes' "Views of Religion".
490 pages. ISBN (paper) 0-345-29887-X.
RICHARD SWINBURNE
"The Existence of God (Revised Edition)", Clarendon Paperbacks, Oxford
This book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with "The Coherence of
Theism" (1977) and was concluded with "Faith and Reason" (1981). In this
work, Swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the
existence of God. His arguments, which are somewhat tendentious and rely
upon the imputation of late 20th century western Christian values and
aesthetics to a God which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived, were
decisively rejected in Mackie's "The Miracle of Theism". In the revised
edition of "The Existence of God", Swinburne includes an Appendix in which he
makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut Mackie.
J. L. MACKIE
"The Miracle of Theism", Oxford
This (posthumous) volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal
arguments for and against the existence of God. It ranges from the classical
philosophical positions of Descartes, Anselm, Berkeley, Hume et al, through
the moral arguments of Newman, Kant and Sidgwick, to the recent restatements
of the classical theses by Plantinga and Swinburne. It also addresses those
positions which push the concept of God beyond the realm of the rational,
such as those of Kierkegaard, Kung and Philips, as well as "replacements for
God" such as Lelie's axiarchism. The book is a delight to read - less
formalistic and better written than Martin's works, and refreshingly direct
when compared with the hand-waving of Swinburne.
JAMES A. HAUGHT
"Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness",
Prometheus Books
Looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day -- and
not only by Christians.
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 89-64079. 1990.
NORM R. ALLEN, JR.
"African American Humanism: an Anthology"
See the listing for African Americans for Humanism above.
GORDON STEIN
"An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", Prometheus Books
An anthology covering a wide range of subjects, including 'The Devil, Evil
and Morality' and 'The History of Freethought'. Comprehensive bibliography.
EDMUND D. COHEN
"The Mind of The Bible-Believer", Prometheus Books
A study of why people become Christian fundamentalists, and what effect it
has on them.
Net Resources
There's a small mail-based archive server at mantis.co.uk which carries
archives of old alt.atheism.moderated articles and assorted other files. For
more information, send mail to archive-server@mantis.co.uk saying
help
send atheism/index
and it will mail back a reply.
mathew
ÿ
after prepro From mathew
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Atheist Resources
Summary Books addresses music anything related to atheism
Keywords FAQ atheism books music fiction addresses contacts
Expires Thu 29 Apr 1993 115719 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930301143317mantiscouk
Lines 290
Archivename atheismresources
Altatheismarchivename resources
Lastmodified 11 December 1992
Version 10
Atheist Resources
Addresses of Atheist Organizations
USA
FREEDOM FROM RELIGION FOUNDATION
Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US
Write to FFRF PO Box 750 Madison WI 53701
Telephone 608 2568900
EVOLUTION DESIGNS
Evolution Designs sell the Darwin fish Its a fish symbol like the ones
Christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word Darwin written
inside The deluxe moulded 3D plastic fish is 495 postpaid in the US
Write to Evolution Designs 7119 Laurel Canyon 4 North Hollywood
CA 91605
People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold
try mailing For net people who go to Lynn directly the
price is 495 per fish
AMERICAN ATHEIST PRESS
AAP publish various atheist books critiques of the Bible lists of
Biblical contradictions and so on One such book is
The Bible Handbook by WP Ball and GW Foote American Atheist Press
372 pp ISBN 0910309264 2nd edition 1986 Bible contradictions
absurdities atrocities immoralities contains Ball Foote The Bible
Contradicts Itself AAP Based on the King James version of the Bible
Write to American Atheist Press PO Box 140195 Austin TX 787140195
or 7215 Cameron Road Austin TX 787522973
Telephone 512 4581244
Fax 512 4679525
PROMETHEUS BOOKS
Sell books including Haughts Holy Horrors see below
Write to 700 East Amherst Street Buffalo New York 14215
Telephone 716 8372475
An alternate address which may be newer or older is
Prometheus Books 59 Glenn Drive Buffalo NY 142282197
AFRICANAMERICANS FOR HUMANISM
An organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of
black freethought They publish a quarterly newsletter AAH EXAMINER
Write to Norm R Allen Jr African Americans for Humanism PO Box 664
Buffalo NY 14226
United Kingdom
Rationalist Press Association National Secular Society
88 Islington High Street 702 Holloway Road
London N1 8EW London N19 3NL
071 226 7251 071 272 1266
British Humanist Association South Place Ethical Society
14 Lambs Conduit Passage Conway Hall
London WC1R 4RH Red Lion Square
071 430 0908 London WC1R 4RL
fax 071 430 1271 071 831 7723
The National Secular Society publish The Freethinker a monthly magazine
founded in 1881
Germany
IBKA eV
Internationaler Bund der Konfessionslosen und Atheisten
Postfach 880 D1000 Berlin 41 Germany
IBKA publish a journal
MIZ Materialien und Informationen zur Zeit Politisches
Journal der Konfessionslosesn und Atheisten Hrsg IBKA eV
MIZVertrieb Postfach 880 D1000 Berlin 41 Germany
For atheist books write to
IBDK Internationaler Bucherdienst der Konfessionslosen
Postfach 3005 D3000 Hannover 1 Germany
Telephone 0511211216
Books Fiction
THOMAS M DISCH
The Santa Claus Compromise
Short story The ultimate proof that Santa exists All characters and
events are fictitious Any similarity to living or dead gods uh well
WALTER M MILLER JR
A Canticle for Leibowitz
One gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives
copying blueprints from Saint Leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with
ink and leaving white lines and letters
EDGAR PANGBORN
Davy
Post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states The church for example
forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing
atoms
PHILIP K DICK
Philip K Dick Dick wrote many philosophical and thoughtprovoking short
stories and novels His stories are bizarre at times but very approachable
He wrote mainly SF but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than
technology Although he often believed that he had met some sort of God he
remained sceptical Amongst his novels the following are of some relevance
Galactic PotHealer
A fallible alien deity summons a group of Earth craftsmen and women to a
remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans When the
deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pothealer Joe Fernwright is
unable to comply A polished ironic and amusing novel
A Maze of Death
Noteworthy for its description of a technologybased religion
VALIS
The schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of Gnostic
Christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of
unknown but possibly divine origin He is accompanied by his dogmatic and
dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters
The Divine Invasion
God invades Earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from
another star system Unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be
assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to 24hour easy listening music
MARGARET ATWOOD
The Handmaids Tale
A story based on the premise that the US Congress is mysteriously
assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it
right again The book is the diary of a womans life as she tries to live
under the new Christian theocracy Womens right to own property is revoked
and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the
radio is only used for readings from the Bible Crimes are punished
retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are
hunted down and hanged Atwoods writing style is difficult to get used to
at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on
VARIOUS AUTHORS
The Bible
This somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized However it
is probably worth reading if only so that youll know what all the fuss is
about It exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one
true version
Books Nonfiction
PETER DE ROSA
Vicars of Christ Bantam Press 1988
Although de Rosa seems to be Christian or even Catholic this is a very
enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc
German translation Gottes erste Diener Die dunkle Seite des Papsttums
DroemerKnaur 1989
MICHAEL MARTIN
Atheism A Philosophical Justification Temple University Press
Philadelphia USA
A detailed and scholarly justification of atheism Contains an outstanding
appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious
area Argues both for negative atheism ie the nonbelief in the
existence of gods and also for positive atheism the belief in the
nonexistence of gods Includes great refutations of the most
challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting
contempory theists such as Platinga and Swinburne
541 pages ISBN 0877226423 hardcover paperback also available
The Case Against Christianity Temple University Press
A comprehensive critique of Christianity in which he considers
the best contemporary defences of Christianity and ultimately
demonstrates that they are unsupportable andor incoherent
273 pages ISBN 0877227675
JAMES TURNER
Without God Without Creed The Johns Hopkins University Press Baltimore
MD USA
Subtitled The Origins of Unbelief in America Examines the way in which
unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic became a mainstream alternative
worldview Focusses on the period 17701900 and while considering France
and Britain the emphasis is on American and particularly New England
developments Neither a religious history of secularization or atheism
Without God Without Creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate
of a single idea the belief that God exists
316 pages ISBN hardcover 080182494X paper 0801834074
GEORGE SELDES Editor
The great thoughts Ballantine Books New York USA
A dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements
and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the persons philosophy
and worldview Includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many
people For some popular observations traces the way in which various
people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries Quite a number of
the quotations are derived from Cardiffs What Great Men Think of Religion
and Noyes Views of Religion
490 pages ISBN paper 034529887X
RICHARD SWINBURNE
The Existence of God Revised Edition Clarendon Paperbacks Oxford
This book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with The Coherence of
Theism 1977 and was concluded with Faith and Reason 1981 In this
work Swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the
existence of God His arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely
upon the imputation of late 20th century western Christian values and
aesthetics to a God which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were
decisively rejected in Mackies The Miracle of Theism In the revised
edition of The Existence of God Swinburne includes an Appendix in which he
makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut Mackie
J L MACKIE
The Miracle of Theism Oxford
This posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal
arguments for and against the existence of God It ranges from the classical
philosophical positions of Descartes Anselm Berkeley Hume et al through
the moral arguments of Newman Kant and Sidgwick to the recent restatements
of the classical theses by Plantinga and Swinburne It also addresses those
positions which push the concept of God beyond the realm of the rational
such as those of Kierkegaard Kung and Philips as well as replacements for
God such as Lelies axiarchism The book is a delight to read less
formalistic and better written than Martins works and refreshingly direct
when compared with the handwaving of Swinburne
JAMES A HAUGHT
Holy Horrors An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness
Prometheus Books
Looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day and
not only by Christians
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 8964079 1990
NORM R ALLEN JR
African American Humanism an Anthology
See the listing for African Americans for Humanism above
GORDON STEIN
An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism Prometheus Books
An anthology covering a wide range of subjects including The Devil Evil
and Morality and The History of Freethought Comprehensive bibliography
EDMUND D COHEN
The Mind of The BibleBeliever Prometheus Books
A study of why people become Christian fundamentalists and what effect it
has on them
Net Resources
Theres a small mailbased archive server at mantiscouk which carries
archives of old altatheismmoderated articles and assorted other files For
more information send mail to archiveservermantiscouk saying
help
send atheismindex
and it will mail back a reply
mathew
preprocess doc From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
In article <93108.155839PTS102@psuvm.psu.edu> <PTS102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
[Pitt vs. Penn State controversy deleted]
>
>Bringing this back to alt.atheism relevance: So the guy says we're going to
>Hell. That isn't sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator. At worst,
>it's bad etiquette. (Unless you really believe that someone is using his
>account without his knowledge/permission, which is actually against the law.)
>-----
>Patrick Saxton "Pitt is a second-rate school in a second-rate city."
>pts102@PSUVM.psu.edu - anon
>pts@ecl.psu.edu ob.atheism: "In Batman we Trust"
>
No. It wouldn't be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this
was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell. The point was
that recently many messages were posted from that address. Each of these
messages was posted to a different newsgroup, with the apparent intent of
provoking the readers of that particular group. This, along with the fact
that these posts were written in all-caps, makes these posts suspect.
Whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly. If it is the
intended user, they should consider appropriate action. If it is someone
else-- which seems a possibility, then this is also reason to report it.
We get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread.
It is only because I have seen posts on other groups by this user that I
am considering action.
Brendan
after prepro From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
In article 93108155839PTS102psuvmpsuedu writes
[Pitt vs Penn State controversy deleted]
Bringing this back to altatheism relevance So the guy says were going to
Hell That isnt sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator At worst
its bad etiquette Unless you really believe that someone is using his
account without his knowledgepermission which is actually against the law
Patrick Saxton Pitt is a secondrate school in a secondrate city
pts102PSUVMpsuedu anon
ptseclpsuedu obatheism In Batman we Trust
No It wouldnt be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this
was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell The point was
that recently many messages were posted from that address Each of these
messages was posted to a different newsgroup with the apparent intent of
provoking the readers of that particular group This along with the fact
that these posts were written in allcaps makes these posts suspect
Whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly If it is the
intended user they should consider appropriate action If it is someone
else which seems a possibility then this is also reason to report it
We get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread
It is only because I have seen posts on other groups by this user that I
am considering action
Brendan
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1qnpa6INN8av@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
>>painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.
>
>Well, most hangings are very quick and, I imagine, painless.
I think this is a misnomer.
>
>>Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those
>>days ], etc.
>>All would be considered cruel under your definition.
>>All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.
>
>And, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too. And, if these
>things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution
>(painless) would not be, either.
But, this just shows then that painful execution is not considered
"cruel" and unusual punishment. This shows that "cruel" as used in the
constitution does NOT refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical
pain.
Rather, it must be a different meaning.
---
" I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling "Traditional Family Values."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Cruel was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine
Well most hangings are very quick and I imagine painless
I think this is a misnomer
Firing squad [ note not a clean way to die back in those
days ] etc
All would be considered cruel under your definition
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers
And hangings and firing squads are allowed today too And if these
things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution
painless would not be either
But this just shows then that painful execution is not considered
cruel and unusual punishment This shows that cruel as used in the
constitution does NOT refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical
pain
Rather it must be a different meaning
Id Cheat on Hillary Too
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling Traditional Family Values
preprocess doc From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Lines: 42
In article <1993Apr20.001757.7543@bby.com.au>, gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond) writes:
> In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net> gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
>
>> Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>> who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
>> year.
>
> And with $1B on offer, the problem of "keeping them alive" is highly
> likely to involve more than just the lunar environment!
>
> "Oh Dear, my freighter just landed on the roof of ACME's base and they
> all died. How sad. Gosh, that leaves us as the oldest residents."
>
> "Quick Boss, the slime from YoyoDyne are back, and this time they've
> got a tank! Man the guns!"
>
> One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
> sort of environment.....
>
> Greg.
>
> (I'm kidding, BTW, although the problem of winner-takes-all prizes is
> that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour - witness
> military procurement programs. And $1b is probably far too small a
> reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
> proposition.)
> -
> Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Hey! My dad has an old hangar and Judy has some old rockets in her attic,
let's put on a Lunar program! . . . Sounds good, but . . .
Let's play a game - What would be a reasonable reward? What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat? Just where in the
budget would the reward come from? Should there be a time limit? Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say . . .
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years? You get the idea.
I'd like to play but I don't have a clue to the answers.
Tom Freebairn | He who refuses to understand math
| will probably never get his checkbook figured out.
after prepro From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Lines 42
In article 1993Apr200017577543bbycomau gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond writes
In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a
year
And with 1B on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly
likely to involve more than just the lunar environment
Oh Dear my freighter just landed on the roof of ACMEs base and they
all died How sad Gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents
Quick Boss the slime from YoyoDyne are back and this time theyve
got a tank Man the guns
One could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that
sort of environment
Greg
Im kidding BTW although the problem of winnertakesall prizes is
that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour witness
military procurement programs And 1b is probably far too small a
reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk
proposition
Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Hey My dad has an old hangar and Judy has some old rockets in her attic
lets put on a Lunar program Sounds good but
Lets play a game What would be a reasonable reward What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat Just where in the
budget would the reward come from Should there be a time limit Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years You get the idea
Id like to play but I dont have a clue to the answers
Tom Freebairn He who refuses to understand math
will probably never get his checkbook figured out
preprocess doc From: marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Kevin Marshall)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA
Lines: 72
NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
>die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
>someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
>heal people.
Anyone who dies for a "cause" runs the risk of dying for a lie. As for
people being able to tell if he was a liar, well, we've had grifters and
charlatans since the beginning of civilization. If David Copperfield had
been the Messiah, I bet he could have found plenty of believers.
Jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer, and he wasn't the
first to be "witnessed." What sets him apart?
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
>this right away.
Rubbish. Nations have followed crazies, liars, psychopaths, and
megalomaniacs throughout history. Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Khomeini,
Qadaffi, Stalin, Papa Doc, and Nixon come to mind...all from this century.
Koresh is a non-issue.
> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
>real thing.
Take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course. There are flaws in your
logic everywhere. And as I'm sure others will tell you, read the FAQ!
> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
>and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
>write I will use it.
Of course, you have to believe the Bible first. Just because something is
written in the Bible does not mean it is true, and the age of that tome plus
the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible. So if you
do quote from the Bible in the future, try to back up that quote with
supporting evidence. Otherwise, you will get flamed mercilessly.
> I don't think most people understand what a Christian is. It
>is certainly not what I see a lot in churches. Rather I think it
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's
>sake. He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
>same. Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives
>over to him. That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a
>real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. But
>just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes
>time. We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.
>It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in
>a while. We box everything into time units. Such as work at this
>time, sports, Tv, social life. God is above these boxes and should be
>carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
>ourselves.
Just like weight lifting or guitar playing, eh? I don't know how you
define the world "total," but I would imagine a "total sacrafice [sp]
of everything for God's sake" would involve more than a time commitment.
You are correct about our tendency to "box everything into time units."
Would you explain HOW one should involove God in sports and (hehehe)
television?
--
--- __ _______ ---
||| Kevin Marshall \ \/ /_ _/ Computer Science Department |||
||| Virginia Tech \ / / / marshall@csugrad.cs.vt.edu |||
--- Blacksburg, Virginia \/ /_/ (703) 232-6529 ---
after prepro From marshallcsugradcsvtedu Kevin Marshall
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept Blacksburg VA
Lines 72
NNTPPostingHost csugradcsvtedu
Keywords Dan Bissell
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
Anyone who dies for a cause runs the risk of dying for a lie As for
people being able to tell if he was a liar well weve had grifters and
charlatans since the beginning of civilization If David Copperfield had
been the Messiah I bet he could have found plenty of believers
Jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer and he wasnt the
first to be witnessed What sets him apart
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Rubbish Nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and
megalomaniacs throughout history Hitler Tojo Mussolini Khomeini
Qadaffi Stalin Papa Doc and Nixon come to mindall from this century
Koresh is a nonissue
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course There are flaws in your
logic everywhere And as Im sure others will tell you read the FAQ
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
Of course you have to believe the Bible first Just because something is
written in the Bible does not mean it is true and the age of that tome plus
the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible So if you
do quote from the Bible in the future try to back up that quote with
supporting evidence Otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly
I dont think most people understand what a Christian is It
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches Rather I think it
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods
sake He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
same Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives
over to him Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at But
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes
time We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in
a while We box everything into time units Such as work at this
time sports Tv social life God is above these boxes and should be
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
ourselves
Just like weight lifting or guitar playing eh I dont know how you
define the world total but I would imagine a total sacrafice [sp]
of everything for Gods sake would involve more than a time commitment
You are correct about our tendency to box everything into time units
Would you explain HOW one should involove God in sports and hehehe
television
__ _______
Kevin Marshall \ \ _ _ Computer Science Department
Virginia Tech \ marshallcsugradcsvtedu
Blacksburg Virginia \ _ 703 2326529
preprocess doc From: Pat.Hoage@f6507.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Pat Hoage)
Subject: army in space
Lines: 7
I just got out of the Army. Go signal corps or Intelligence;
photointelligence interpretation. If you go ADA you might get to play with
rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt
protecting the foward troops from low flying objects. Good Luck
* Origin: *AmeriComm*, 214/373-7314. Dallas'Info Source. (1:124/6507)
after prepro From PatHoagef6507n124z1fidonetorg Pat Hoage
Subject army in space
Lines 7
I just got out of the Army Go signal corps or Intelligence
photointelligence interpretation If you go ADA you might get to play with
rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt
protecting the foward troops from low flying objects Good Luck
Origin AmeriComm 2143737314 DallasInfo Source 11246507
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
>>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
>So, why "must" they have such laws?
The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."
If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
So why must they have such laws
The quotation marks should enclose laws not must
If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos
keith
preprocess doc From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 24
In article <1pa0f4INNpit@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
> But really, are you threatened by the motto, or by the people that use it?
Every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm,
it is infact re-inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for
themselves. The motto is dangerous in itself, it tells the world that every
*true* American is god-fearing, and puts down those who do not fear gods. It
doesn't need anyone to make it dangerous, it does a good job itself by just
existing on your currency.
> keith
The Desert Brat
--
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia, ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au T.S.A.K.C. \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions. bb bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com | - Alice In Chains |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
after prepro From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Re Keith Schneider Stealth Poster
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 24
In article 1pa0f4INNpitgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
But really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it
Every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm
it is infact reinforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for
themselves The motto is dangerous in itself it tells the world that every
true American is godfearing and puts down those who do not fear gods It
doesnt need anyone to make it dangerous it does a good job itself by just
existing on your currency
keith
The Desert Brat
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau TSAKC \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions bb bb
It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we Gods name is smack
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some
produce it Jim Perry perrydsinccom Alice In Chains
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 16
In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:
> He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
> One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
> existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
> Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
> number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
> is his status at the time the crime was committed.
Gregg, so would you consider that Rushdie would now be left alone,
and he could have a normal life? In other words, does Islam support
the notion of forgiving?
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 16
In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote
Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
is his status at the time the crime was committed
Gregg so would you consider that Rushdie would now be left alone
and he could have a normal life In other words does Islam support
the notion of forgiving
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: 9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au (The Desert Brat)
Subject: Victims of various 'Good Fight's
Organization: Cured, discharged
Lines: 30
In article <9454@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>, naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala) writes:
> LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION
> 1. Iran-Iraq War: 1,000,000
> 2. Civil War in Sudan: 1,000,000
> 3, Riots in India-Pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000
> 4. Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000
> 5. Inquistions in America in 1500s: x million (x=??)
> 6. Crusades: ??
7. Massacre of Jews in WWII: 6.3 million
8. Massacre of other 'inferior races' in WWII: 10 million
9. Communist purges: 20-30 million? [Socialism is more or less a religion]
10. Catholics V Protestants : quite a few I'd imagine
11. Recent goings on in Bombay/Iodia (sp?) area: ??
12. Disease introduced to Brazilian * oher S.Am. tribes: x million
> -- Naren
The Desert Brat
--
John J McVey, Elc&Eltnc Eng, Whyalla, Uni S Australia, ________
9051467f@levels.unisa.edu.au T.S.A.K.C. \/Darwin o\
For replies, mail to whjjm@wh.whyalla.unisa.edu.au /\________/
Disclaimer: Unisa hates my opinions. bb bb
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
|"It doesn't make a rainbow any less beautiful that we | "God's name is smack |
|understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to | for some." |
|produce it." - Jim Perry, perry@dsinc.com | - Alice In Chains |
+------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------+
after prepro From 9051467flevelsunisaeduau The Desert Brat
Subject Victims of various Good Fights
Organization Cured discharged
Lines 30
In article 9454tekig7PENTEKCOM narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala writes
LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION
1 IranIraq War 1000000
2 Civil War in Sudan 1000000
3 Riots in IndiaPakistan in 1947 1000000
4 Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971 1000000
5 Inquistions in America in 1500s x million x
6 Crusades
7 Massacre of Jews in WWII 63 million
8 Massacre of other inferior races in WWII 10 million
9 Communist purges 2030 million [Socialism is more or less a religion]
10 Catholics V Protestants quite a few Id imagine
11 Recent goings on in BombayIodia sp area
12 Disease introduced to Brazilian oher SAm tribes x million
Naren
The Desert Brat
John J McVey ElcEltnc Eng Whyalla Uni S Australia ________
9051467flevelsunisaeduau TSAKC \Darwin o\
For replies mail to whjjmwhwhyallaunisaeduau \________
Disclaimer Unisa hates my opinions bb bb
It doesnt make a rainbow any less beautiful that we Gods name is smack
understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some
produce it Jim Perry perrydsinccom Alice In Chains
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 19
In article <ofnWyG600WB699voA=@andrew.cmu.edu> pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Patrick C Leger) writes:
>EVER HEAR OF
>BAPTISM AT BIRTH? If that isn't preying on the young, I don't know what
>is...
>
No, that's praying on the young. Preying on the young comes
later, when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
priest really wears under that chasible.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re thoughts on christians
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 19
In article pl1uandrewcmuedu Patrick C Leger writes
EVER HEAR OF
BAPTISM AT BIRTH If that isnt preying on the young I dont know what
is
No thats praying on the young Preying on the young comes
later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the
priest really wears under that chasible
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 19
>snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else.
>
LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION
1. Iran-Iraq War: 1,000,000
2. Civil War in Sudan: 1,000,000
3, Riots in India-Pakistan in 1947: 1,000,000
4. Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971: 1,000,000
5. Inquistions in America in 1500s: x million (x=??)
6. Crusades: ??
I am sure that people can add a lot more to the list.
I wonder what Bobby has to say about the above.
Standard Excuses will not be accepted.
-- Naren
All standard disclaimers apply
after prepro From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 19
snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
More horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else
LIST OF KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION
1 IranIraq War 1000000
2 Civil War in Sudan 1000000
3 Riots in IndiaPakistan in 1947 1000000
4 Massacares in Bangladesh in 1971 1000000
5 Inquistions in America in 1500s x million x
6 Crusades
I am sure that people can add a lot more to the list
I wonder what Bobby has to say about the above
Standard Excuses will not be accepted
Naren
All standard disclaimers apply
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>To show that the examples I and others
>have provided are *not* counter examples of your supposed inherent
>moral hypothesis, you have to successfully argue that
>domestication removes or alters this morality.
I think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree.
Domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild. I
don't think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the
wild animal kingdom, since they have been bred for thousands of years
to produce certain behaviors, etc.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re To show that the examples I and others
have provided are not counter examples of your supposed inherent
moral hypothesis you have to successfully argue that
domestication removes or alters this morality
I think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree
Domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild I
dont think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the
wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands of years
to produce certain behaviors etc
keith
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.
The Japanese spacecraft, Hiten, crashed on the Moon last weekend. For the
past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some
aerobraking experiments with Earth's atmosphere. It was placed in lunar
orbit in February 1992, and I guess it finally ran out of fuel and was
unable to maintain its orbit around the Moon.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 16
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NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon
The Japanese spacecraft Hiten crashed on the Moon last weekend For the
past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some
aerobraking experiments with Earths atmosphere It was placed in lunar
orbit in February 1992 and I guess it finally ran out of fuel and was
unable to maintain its orbit around the Moon
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc Subject: Vonnegut/atheism
From: dmn@kepler.unh.edu (...until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings)
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu
Lines: 21
Yesterday, I got the chance to hear Kurt Vonnegut speak at the
University of New Hampshire. Vonnegut succeeded Isaac Asimov as the
(honorary?) head of the American Humanist Association. (Vonnegut is
an atheist, and so was Asimov) Before Asimov's funeral, Vonnegut stood up
and said about Asimov, "He's in heaven now," which ignited uproarious
laughter in the room. (from the people he was speaking to around the time
of the funeral)
"It's the funniest thing I could have possibly said
to a room full of humanists," Vonnegut said at yesterday's lecture.
If Vonnegut comes to speak at your university, I highly recommend
going to see him even if you've never read any of his novels. In my opinion,
he's the greatest living humorist. (greatest living humanist humorist as well)
Peace,
Dana
after prepro Subject Vonnegutatheism
From dmnkeplerunhedu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings
Organization UTexas MailtoNews Gateway
NNTPPostingHost csutexasedu
Lines 21
Yesterday I got the chance to hear Kurt Vonnegut speak at the
University of New Hampshire Vonnegut succeeded Isaac Asimov as the
honorary head of the American Humanist Association Vonnegut is
an atheist and so was Asimov Before Asimovs funeral Vonnegut stood up
and said about Asimov Hes in heaven now which ignited uproarious
laughter in the room from the people he was speaking to around the time
of the funeral
Its the funniest thing I could have possibly said
to a room full of humanists Vonnegut said at yesterdays lecture
If Vonnegut comes to speak at your university I highly recommend
going to see him even if youve never read any of his novels In my opinion
hes the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist as well
Peace
Dana
preprocess doc From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: We don't need no stinking subjects!
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community. The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: The Loyal Order Of Keiths.
Lines: 93
In article <1ql1avINN38a@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>>>kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>
>>No, if you're going to claim something, then it is up to you to prove it.
>>Think "Cold Fusion".
>
>Well, I've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you
>(or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding
>mating practices, etc. I don't think that these few cases are enough to
>disprove the general trend of natural morality. And, again, the mating
>practices need to be reexamined...
So what you're saying is that your mind is made up, and you'll just explain
away any differences at being statistically insignificant?
>>>Try to find "immoral" non-mating-related activities.
>>So you're excluding mating-related-activities from your "natural morality"?
>
>No, but mating practices are a special case. I'll have to think about it
>some more.
So you'll just explain away any inconsistancies in your "theory" as being
"a special case".
>>>Yes, I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
>>>goal of species propogation in mind. But, I am not equating the two
>>>as you so think. That is, an objective system isn't necessarily the
>>>natural one.
>>Are you or are you not the man who wrote:
>>"A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
>> follow".
>
>Indeed. But, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems
>are not the natural one. So, the terms can not be equated. The natural
>system is a subset of the objective ones.
You just equated them. Re-read your own words.
>>Now, since homosexuality has been observed in most animals (including
>>birds and dolphins), are you going to claim that "most animals" have
>>the capacity of being immoral?
>
>I don't claim that homosexuality is immoral. It isn't harmful, although
>it isn't helpful either (to the mating process). And, when you say that
>homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?"
A study release in 1991 found that 11% of female seagulls are lesbians.
>>>Well, I'm saying that these goals are not inherent. That is why they must
>>>be postulates, because there is not really a way to determine them
>>>otherwise (although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
>>>goal--but they are somewhat removed).
>>Postulate: To assume; posit.
>
>That's right. The goals themselves aren't inherent.
>
>>I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
>>Earth, that the moon is actually made of green cheese, and the stars are
>>the portions of Angels that intrudes into three-dimensional reality.
>
>You could, but such would contradict observations.
Now, apply this last sentence of your to YOUR theory. Notice how your are
contridicting observations?
>>I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
>>of one side of a triangle, the length of a second side of the triangle, and
>>the degree of angle connecting them, I can determine the length of the
>>third side.
>
>But a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be
>true. I don't think your postulate would be valid.
You don't know much math, do you? The ability to use SAS to determine the
length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry.
>>Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to. In order to assume
>>something about your system, you have to be able to show that your postulates
>>work.
>
>Yes, and I think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work. You think
>they don't? Or are they not good goals?
Goals <> postulates.
Again, if one of the "goals" of this "objective/natural morality" system
you are proposing is "survival of the species", then homosexuality is
immoral.
--
=kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu | B(0-4) c- d- e++ f- g++ k(+) m r(-) s++(+) t | TSAKC=
=My thoughts, my posts, my ideas, my responsibility, my beer, my pizza. OK???=
after prepro From kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran
Subject We dont need no stinking subjects
XDisclaimer Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
of Denver for the Denver community The University has neither
control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users
Organization The Loyal Order Of Keiths
Lines 93
In article 1ql1avINN38agapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes
keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kcochrannyxcsduedu Keith Justified And Ancient Cochran writes
No if youre going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it
Think Cold Fusion
Well Ive provided examples to show that the trend was general and you
or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding
mating practices etc I dont think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality And again the mating
practices need to be reexamined
So what youre saying is that your mind is made up and youll just explain
away any differences at being statistically insignificant
Try to find immoral nonmatingrelated activities
So youre excluding matingrelatedactivities from your natural morality
No but mating practices are a special case Ill have to think about it
some more
So youll just explain away any inconsistancies in your theory as being
a special case
Yes I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
goal of species propogation in mind But I am not equating the two
as you so think That is an objective system isnt necessarily the
natural one
Are you or are you not the man who wrote
A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
follow
Indeed But while the natural system is objective all objective systems
are not the natural one So the terms can not be equated The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones
You just equated them Reread your own words
Now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including
birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have
the capacity of being immoral
I dont claim that homosexuality is immoral It isnt harmful although
it isnt helpful either to the mating process And when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom dont you mean bisexuality
A study release in 1991 found that 11 of female seagulls are lesbians
Well Im saying that these goals are not inherent That is why they must
be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them
otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
goalbut they are somewhat removed
Postulate To assume posit
Thats right The goals themselves arent inherent
I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
Earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are
the portions of Angels that intrudes into threedimensional reality
You could but such would contradict observations
Now apply this last sentence of your to YOUR theory Notice how your are
contridicting observations
I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and
the degree of angle connecting them I can determine the length of the
third side
But a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be
true I dont think your postulate would be valid
You dont know much math do you The ability to use SAS to determine the
length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry
Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to In order to assume
something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates
work
Yes and I think the goals of survival and happiness do work You think
they dont Or are they not good goals
Goals postulates
Again if one of the goals of this objectivenatural morality system
you are proposing is survival of the species then homosexuality is
immoral
kcochrannyxcsduedu B04 c d e f g k m r s t TSAKC
My thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza OK
preprocess doc From: Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7F4E4ADFD021C0B@rs5-annex3.sfu.ca>
X-Xxdate: Fri, 16 Apr 93 06:33:17 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 15
In article <1qn4bgINN4s7@mimi.UU.NET> James P. Goltz, goltz@mimi.UU.NET
writes:
> Background: The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept.
It was more than a theoretical concept; it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago. I don't know how well-known this is,
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958. I was working at General Atomic at the time,
but I didn't learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later,
when
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done. I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
see it. Has anyone out there seen it?
Leigh
after prepro From Leigh Palmer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
XXxmessageId
XXxdate Fri 16 Apr 93 063317 GMT
Organization Simon Fraser University
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 15
In article 1qn4bgINN4s7mimiUUNET James P Goltz goltzmimiUUNET
writes
Background The Orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept
It was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by
Freeman Dyson et al many years ago I dont know how wellknown this is
but a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958 I was working at General Atomic at the time
but I didnt learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later
when
Ted Taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it
Leigh
preprocess doc From: khayash@hsc.usc.edu (Ken Hayashida)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: hsc.usc.edu
In article <1993Apr26.184507.10511@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>I know it's only wishful thinking, with our current President,
>but this is from last fall:
>
> "Is there life on Mars? Maybe not now. But there will be."
> -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator, 24 August 1992
>
>-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
> kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
Lets hear it for Dan Goldin...now if he can only convince the rest of
our federal government that the space program is a worth while
investment!
I hope that I will live to see the day we walk on Mars, but
we need to address the technical hurdles first! If there's sufficient
interest, maybe we should consider starting a sci.space group
devoted to the technical analysis of long-duration human spaceflight.
Most of you regulars know that I'm interested in starting this analysis
as soon as possible.
Ken
khayash@hsc.usc.edu
USC School of Medicine, Class of 1994
after prepro From khayashhscuscedu Ken Hayashida
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost hscuscedu
In article 1993Apr2618450710511aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
I know its only wishful thinking with our current President
but this is from last fall
Is there life on Mars Maybe not now But there will be
Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator 24 August 1992
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
Lets hear it for Dan Goldinnow if he can only convince the rest of
our federal government that the space program is a worth while
investment
I hope that I will live to see the day we walk on Mars but
we need to address the technical hurdles first If theres sufficient
interest maybe we should consider starting a scispace group
devoted to the technical analysis of longduration human spaceflight
Most of you regulars know that Im interested in starting this analysis
as soon as possible
Ken
khayashhscuscedu
USC School of Medicine Class of 1994
preprocess doc From: DPierce@world.std.com (Richard D Pierce)
Subject: Re: Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Keywords: HST, Pluto, Uranus
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Lines: 13
In article <15APR199316461058@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope:
>
> o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
> Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! I knew Uranus is a long way off, but I didn't think it was THAT far away!
--
| Dick Pierce |
| Loudspeaker and Software Consulting |
| 17 Sartelle Street Pepperell, MA 01463 |
| (508) 433-9183 (Voice and FAX) |
after prepro From DPierceworldstdcom Richard D Pierce
Subject Re Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Keywords HST Pluto Uranus
Organization The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Lines 13
In article 15APR199316461058kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope
o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow I knew Uranus is a long way off but I didnt think it was THAT far away
Dick Pierce
Loudspeaker and Software Consulting
17 Sartelle Street Pepperell MA 01463
508 4339183 Voice and FAX
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Objective Values 'v' Scientific Accuracy (was Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is)
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 17
In article <930419.122738.5s2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
<mathew@mantis.co.uk> wrote:
>
> lpzsml@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (Steve Lang) writes:
> > Values can also refer to meaning. For example in computer science the
> > value of 1 is TRUE, and 0 is FALSE.
>
> Not in Lisp.
True, all you need to define is one statement that defined one
polarity, and all the other states are considered the other
polarity. Then again what is the meaning of nil, false or true :-) ?
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Objective Values v Scientific Accuracy was Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 17
In article 9304191227385s2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
wrote
lpzsmlunicornnottacuk Steve Lang writes
Values can also refer to meaning For example in computer science the
value of 1 is TRUE and 0 is FALSE
Not in Lisp
True all you need to define is one statement that defined one
polarity and all the other states are considered the other
polarity Then again what is the meaning of nil false or true
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: globus@nas.nasa.gov (Al Globus)
Subject: Space Colony Size Preferences Summary
Organization: Applied Research Office, NASA Ames Research Center
Reply-To: globus@nas.nasa.gov
Distribution: sci.space
Lines: 92
Some time ago I sent the following message:
Every once in a while I design an orbital space colony. I'm gearing up to
do another one. I'd some info from you. If you were to move
onto a space colony to live permanently, how big would the colony have
to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable? Specifically,
How many people do you want to share the colony with?
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?
Assume 1g living (the colony will rotate). Assume that you can leave
from time to time for vacations and business trips. If you're young
enough, assume that you'll raise your children there.
I didn't get a lot of responses, and they were all over the block.
Thanx muchly to all those who responded, it is good food for thought.
Here's the (edited) responses I got:
How many people do you want to share the colony with?
100
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?
Cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long
Rui Sousa
ruca@saber-si.pt
=============================================================================
> How many people do you want to share the colony with?
100,000 - 250,000
> What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?
100 square kms surface, divided into city, towns, villages and
countryside. Must have lakes, rivers amd mountains.
=============================================================================
> How many
1000. 1000 people really isn't that large a number;
everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year, and will probably
be sick of everyone else within another year.
>What physical dimensions does the living are need to have?
Hm. I am not all that great at figuring it out. But I would maximize the
percentage of colony-space that is accessible to humans. Esecially if there
were to be children, since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways.
And everyone, especially me, likes to "go exploring"...I would want to be able
to go for a walk and see something different each time...
=============================================================================
For population, I think I would want a substantial town -- big enough
to have strangers in it. This helps get away from the small-town
"everybody knows everything" syndrome, which some people like but
I don't. Call it several thousand people.
For physical dimensions, a somewhat similar criterion: big enough
to contain surprises, at least until you spent considerable time
getting to know it. As a more specific rule of thumb, big enough
for there to be places at least an hour away on foot. Call that
5km, which means a 10km circumference if we're talking a sphere.
Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
=============================================================================
My desires, for permanent move to a space colony, assuming easy communication
and travel:
Size: About a small-town size, say 9 sq. km. 'Course, bigger is better :-)
Population: about 100/sq km or less. So, ~1000 for 9sqkm. Less is
better for elbow room, more for interest and sanity, so say max 3000, min 300.
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams | 517-355-2178 (work) \\ Inhale to the Chief!
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu | 336-9591 (hm)\\ Zonker Harris in 1996!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From globusnasnasagov Al Globus
Subject Space Colony Size Preferences Summary
Organization Applied Research Office NASA Ames Research Center
ReplyTo globusnasnasagov
Distribution scispace
Lines 92
Some time ago I sent the following message
Every once in a while I design an orbital space colony Im gearing up to
do another one Id some info from you If you were to move
onto a space colony to live permanently how big would the colony have
to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable Specifically
How many people do you want to share the colony with
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have
Assume 1g living the colony will rotate Assume that you can leave
from time to time for vacations and business trips If youre young
enough assume that youll raise your children there
I didnt get a lot of responses and they were all over the block
Thanx muchly to all those who responded it is good food for thought
Heres the edited responses I got
How many people do you want to share the colony with
100
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have
Cylinder 200m diameter x 1 km long
Rui Sousa
rucasabersipt
How many people do you want to share the colony with
100000 250000
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have
100 square kms surface divided into city towns villages and
countryside Must have lakes rivers amd mountains
How many
1000 1000 people really isnt that large a number
everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year and will probably
be sick of everyone else within another year
What physical dimensions does the living are need to have
Hm I am not all that great at figuring it out But I would maximize the
percentage of colonyspace that is accessible to humans Esecially if there
were to be children since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways
And everyone especially me likes to go exploringI would want to be able
to go for a walk and see something different each time
For population I think I would want a substantial town big enough
to have strangers in it This helps get away from the smalltown
everybody knows everything syndrome which some people like but
I dont Call it several thousand people
For physical dimensions a somewhat similar criterion big enough
to contain surprises at least until you spent considerable time
getting to know it As a more specific rule of thumb big enough
for there to be places at least an hour away on foot Call that
5km which means a 10km circumference if were talking a sphere
Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
My desires for permanent move to a space colony assuming easy communication
and travel
Size About a smalltown size say 9 sq km Course bigger is better
Population about 100sq km or less So 1000 for 9sqkm Less is
better for elbow room more for interest and sanity so say max 3000 min 300
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 work \\ Inhale to the Chief
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm\\ Zonker Harris in 1996
preprocess doc From: 8725157m@levels.unisa.edu.au
Subject: Cold gas roll control thruster tanks
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 5
Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets?
Thanks in advance,
Jim.
after prepro From 8725157mlevelsunisaeduau
Subject Cold gas roll control thruster tanks
Organization University of South Australia
Lines 5
Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets
Thanks in advance
Jim
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 57
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>I think that you are confusing the words "objective" and "inherent."
>>And objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who,
>>given the postulates of the system, could perfectly judge any situation
>>or action as consistent with the system (right) or not (wrong). You seem
>>to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent. That is,
>>you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the
>>postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer.
>>I don't think that this is a good definition of an objective system.
>Then you need to learn English.
Really>`?
>Gravity is an objective system. Anybody can learn what it is, and perform
>experiments. They will get the same results as every other person who
>has performed those experiments.
No, gravity is an inherent system. You don't need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything. It is possible to objectively
determine someone's guilt or innocence within an non-inherent system.
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent (unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis), but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory.
>This "natural morality" is not an objective system, as evidenced by
>your comments about lions, and mine.
Perhaps it can be objective, but not inherent. Anyway, as I noted before,
the practices related to mating rituals, etc. among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered "immoral" under the previous "definitions"
of the natural law. Therefore, some revisions are in order, since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems.
>>And in fact, the only way that the postulates could be determined by an
>>outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth, like some
>>sort of god or something. But, I do not think that a god is necessary
>>for an objective system, while it seems that you do.
>What are you trying to say here?
It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence, which would
necessitate some sort of grand design?
>>No, I have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a
>>moral system. It is certainly possible for animals to commit acts
>>which are outside of their rules of ethics, but they don't seem to
>>do so very often. Perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be
>>immoral.
>And perhaps it's because you have yet to define a "moral" system.
I think I have. It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors, etc. An immoral behavior could be unwanted, unproductive,
or destructive, etc., depending on the goal of the system (that is,
immoral to what end?).
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re I think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent
And objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who
given the postulates of the system could perfectly judge any situation
or action as consistent with the system right or not wrong You seem
to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent That is
you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the
postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer
I dont think that this is a good definition of an objective system
Then you need to learn English
Really`
Gravity is an objective system Anybody can learn what it is and perform
experiments They will get the same results as every other person who
has performed those experiments
No gravity is an inherent system You dont need any excess information
other than observations to determine anything It is possible to objectively
determine someones guilt or innocence within an noninherent system
I agree that morality is not necessarily inherent unless you state that
everything we do has an evolutionary basis but this does not mean that
it cannot be objective in theory
This natural morality is not an objective system as evidenced by
your comments about lions and mine
Perhaps it can be objective but not inherent Anyway as I noted before
the practices related to mating rituals etc among the animals are likely
the only ones to be considered immoral under the previous definitions
of the natural law Therefore some revisions are in order since the
class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems
And in fact the only way that the postulates could be determined by an
outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth like some
sort of god or something But I do not think that a god is necessary
for an objective system while it seems that you do
What are you trying to say here
It seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system
because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence which would
necessitate some sort of grand design
No I have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a
moral system It is certainly possible for animals to commit acts
which are outside of their rules of ethics but they dont seem to
do so very often Perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be
immoral
And perhaps its because you have yet to define a moral system
I think I have It is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired
behaviors etc An immoral behavior could be unwanted unproductive
or destructive etc depending on the goal of the system that is
immoral to what end
keith
preprocess doc From: adam@sw.stratus.com (Mark Adam)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: paix.sw.stratus.com
Keywords: food
In article <1pr5u2$t0b@agate.berkeley.edu>, ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48) writes:
> The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly. It was
> most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar." Sort of
> a toffee injected with vitamins. The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
> approximation of the taste. Strawberry sucked.
>
Peanut butter was definitely my favorite. I don't think I ever took a second bite
of the strawberry.
I recently joined Nutri-System and their "Chewy Fudge Bar" is very reminicent of
the chocolate Space Food. This is the only thing I can find that even comes close
the taste. It takes you back... your taste-buds are happy and your
intestines are in knots... joy!
--
mark ----------------------------
(adam@paix.sw.stratus.com) | My opinions are not those of Stratus.
| Hell! I don`t even agree with myself!
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad."
after prepro From adamswstratuscom Mark Adam
Subject Re space food sticks
Organization Stratus Computer Inc
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost paixswstratuscom
Keywords food
In article 1pr5u2t0bagateberkeleyedu ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48 writes
The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly It was
most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste Strawberry sucked
Peanut butter was definitely my favorite I dont think I ever took a second bite
of the strawberry
I recently joined NutriSystem and their Chewy Fudge Bar is very reminicent of
the chocolate Space Food This is the only thing I can find that even comes close
the taste It takes you back your tastebuds are happy and your
intestines are in knots joy
mark
adampaixswstratuscom My opinions are not those of Stratus
Hell I don`t even agree with myself
Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
INteresting question about Galileo.
Galileo's HGA is stuck.
The HGA was left closed, because galileo had a venus flyby.
If the HGA were pointed att he sun, near venus, it would
cook the foci elements.
question: WHy couldn't Galileo's course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA did not ever do a sun point.?
After all, it would normally be aimed at earth anyway?
or would it be that an emergency situation i.e. spacecraft safing
and seek might have caused an HGA sun point?
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords Galileo JPL
INteresting question about Galileo
Galileos HGA is stuck
The HGA was left closed because galileo had a venus flyby
If the HGA were pointed att he sun near venus it would
cook the foci elements
question WHy couldnt Galileos course manuevers have been
designed such that the HGA did not ever do a sun point
After all it would normally be aimed at earth anyway
or would it be that an emergency situation ie spacecraft safing
and seek might have caused an HGA sun point
pat
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: How to get there? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 27
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr15.051309.22252@stortek.com>, pg@sanitas.stortek.com (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey (higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov) wrote:
> : While you're at it, comet experts, explain how a comet gets into
> : Jovian orbit to begin with!
>
> : There are non-gravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a
> : comet gets into the inner solar system. [...]
>
> Don't forget the Galilean satellites of Jupiter.
My poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny
masses, sitting very close to Jupiter, play any role whatsoever in the
problem. Or, to put it more technically, the extra "volume" they add
to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible.
Jupiter is 2E27 kg, while the Galilean satellites are around 1E23.
Also, as I said, the few references that I've looked at do not
mention outgassing or breakup as important processes. The important
thing is a Jupiter-Sun-comet "reverse slingshot" that leads to a
weakly Jupiter-bound orbit for the comet (at least a temporary one).
Bill Higgins | Late at night she still doth haunt me
Fermilab | Dressed in garments soaked in brine
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | Though in life I used to hug her
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | Now she's dead, I draw the line!
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | --after the tragedy, "Clementine"
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re How to get there was Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 27
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1993Apr1505130922252stortekcom pgsanitasstortekcom Paul Gilmartin writes
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey higginsfnalffnalgov wrote
While youre at it comet experts explain how a comet gets into
Jovian orbit to begin with
There are nongravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a
comet gets into the inner solar system []
Dont forget the Galilean satellites of Jupiter
My poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny
masses sitting very close to Jupiter play any role whatsoever in the
problem Or to put it more technically the extra volume they add
to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible
Jupiter is 2E27 kg while the Galilean satellites are around 1E23
Also as I said the few references that Ive looked at do not
mention outgassing or breakup as important processes The important
thing is a JupiterSuncomet reverse slingshot that leads to a
weakly Jupiterbound orbit for the comet at least a temporary one
Bill Higgins Late at night she still doth haunt me
Fermilab Dressed in garments soaked in brine
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET Though in life I used to hug her
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV Now shes dead I draw the line
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS after the tragedy Clementine
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 24
In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer) writes:
>What is the deal with life on Mars? I save the "face" and heard
>associated theories. (which sound thin to me)
The "face" is an accident of light and shadow. There are many "faces" in
landforms on Earth; none is artificial (well, excluding Mount Rushmore and
the like...). There is also a smiley face on Mars, and a Kermit The Frog.
The question of life in a more mundane sense -- bacteria or the like -- is
not quite closed, although the odds are against it, and the most that the
more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils.
There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life.
>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
Mars Observer, currently approaching Mars, will probably try to get a better
image or two of the "face" at some point. It's not high priority; nobody
takes it very seriously. The shadowed half of the face does not look very
face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 24
In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer writes
What is the deal with life on Mars I save the face and heard
associated theories which sound thin to me
The face is an accident of light and shadow There are many faces in
landforms on Earth none is artificial well excluding Mount Rushmore and
the like There is also a smiley face on Mars and a Kermit The Frog
The question of life in a more mundane sense bacteria or the like is
not quite closed although the odds are against it and the most that the
more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils
There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life
Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Mars Observer currently approaching Mars will probably try to get a better
image or two of the face at some point Its not high priority nobody
takes it very seriously The shadowed half of the face does not look very
facelike so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Abyss: breathing fluids
Article-I.D.: access.1psghn$s7r
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <C4t3K3.498@cck.coventry.ac.uk> enf021@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Achurist) writes:
|
|I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
|the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 2-3 minutes.
|So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on
|hold, or else!! That's about it. Remember a liquid is several more times
|as dense as a gas by its very nature. ~10 I think, depending on the gas
|and liquid comparision of course!
Could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid.
Sorta like the portable Iron Lung? Put some sort of flex tubing
around the 'aquanauts' chest. Cyclically compress it and it will
push enough on the chest wall to support breathing?????
You'd have to trust your breather, but in space, you have to trust
your suit anyway.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Abyss breathing fluids
ArticleID access1psghns7r
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article enf021cckcoventryacuk Achurist writes
I believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump
the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after 23 minutes
So if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on
hold or else Thats about it Remember a liquid is several more times
as dense as a gas by its very nature 10 I think depending on the gas
and liquid comparision of course
Could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid
Sorta like the portable Iron Lung Put some sort of flex tubing
around the aquanauts chest Cyclically compress it and it will
push enough on the chest wall to support breathing
Youd have to trust your breather but in space you have to trust
your suit anyway
pat
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Economics
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 14
>If all the ecomomists in the world were laid end to end . . .
>Punchline #1: they would all point in different directions.
>Punchline #2: they wouldn't reach a conclusion.
Punchline #3: it would be a good idea just to leave them there.
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Economics
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 14
If all the ecomomists in the world were laid end to end
Punchline 1 they would all point in different directions
Punchline 2 they wouldnt reach a conclusion
Punchline 3 it would be a good idea just to leave them there
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: tuinstra@signal.ece.clarkson.edu.soe (Dwight Tuinstra)
Subject: Re: Clementine name
Reply-To: tuinstra@signal.ece.clarkson.edu.soe
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: signal.ece.clarkson.edu
In article F00001@permanet.org, Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>Please go just one step further:
>How has the word "Clementine" been associated with mining?
>
Could be the (folk?) song "Clementine". If memory serves, part of it goes:
In a cavern, by a canyon,
Excavating for a mine,
Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
and his daughter, Clementine.
Anyone who watched Huckleberry Hound can sing you the chorus :-)
Is there a story/real person behind the song?
+========================================================================+
| dwight tuinstra best: tuinstra@sandman.ece.clarkson.edu |
| tolerable: tuinstrd@craft.camp.clarkson.edu |
| |
| "Homo sapiens: planetary cancer?? ... News at six" |
+========================================================================+
after prepro From tuinstrasignalececlarksonedusoe Dwight Tuinstra
Subject Re Clementine name
ReplyTo tuinstrasignalececlarksonedusoe
Organization Sun Microsystems Inc
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost signalececlarksonedu
In article F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
Please go just one step further
How has the word Clementine been associated with mining
Could be the folk song Clementine If memory serves part of it goes
In a cavern by a canyon
Excavating for a mine
Dwelt a miner fortyniner
and his daughter Clementine
Anyone who watched Huckleberry Hound can sing you the chorus
Is there a storyreal person behind the song
dwight tuinstra best tuinstrasandmanececlarksonedu
tolerable tuinstrdcraftcampclarksonedu
Homo sapiens planetary cancer News at six
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15
In article <19930423.010821.639@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>>Since we don't have the money to keep them going now, how will
>>changing them to a seperate agency help anything?
>>
>How about transferring control to a non-profit organisation that is
>able to accept donations to keep craft operational.
The problem is, you can't raise adequate amounts of money that way.
The Viking Fund tried. They did succeed, in a way, but only because
of the political impact of their fundraising. The actual amount of
money they raised was fairly inconsequential; it would not have kept
the Viking lander going by itself.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15
In article 19930423010821639almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
Since we dont have the money to keep them going now how will
changing them to a seperate agency help anything
How about transferring control to a nonprofit organisation that is
able to accept donations to keep craft operational
The problem is you cant raise adequate amounts of money that way
The Viking Fund tried They did succeed in a way but only because
of the political impact of their fundraising The actual amount of
money they raised was fairly inconsequential it would not have kept
the Viking lander going by itself
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 20
In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>Why can't the government just be a tennant?
>I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
>current spending rules don't permit it to be workable.
Actually, that is no longer true. In the last few years Congress has
ammended laws to provide whatever is needed. Note that both Spacehab
and Comet are funded this way.
The problems aren't legal nor technical. The problem is NASA's culture.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allen W. Sherzer | "A great man is one who does nothing but leaves |
| aws@iti.org | nothing undone" |
+----------------------71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 20
In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
Why cant the government just be a tennant
I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable
Actually that is no longer true In the last few years Congress has
ammended laws to provide whatever is needed Note that both Spacehab
and Comet are funded this way
The problems arent legal nor technical The problem is NASAs culture
Allen
Allen W Sherzer A great man is one who does nothing but leaves
awsitiorg nothing undone
71 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
>exploration.
>Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
If raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would
be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long
before the space mines could be built.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 16
In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration
Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
If raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would
be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long
before the space mines could be built
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. Where are they?
From: belgarath@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Organization: Mankato State University
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Lines: 67
In article <1radsr$att@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?
>
> Given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are
> quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by?
>
> Why would they have to be at galactic ranges?
>
> my own pet theory is that it's Flying saucers entering
> hyperspace :-)
>
> but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
> are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered
> if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in.
>
> pat
Well, lets see....I took a class on this last fall, and I have no
notes so I'll try to wing it...
Here's how I understand it. Remember from stellar evolution that
black holes and neutron stars(pulsars) are formed from high mass stars,
M(star)=1.4M(sun). High mass stars live fast and burn hard, taking
appoximately 10^5-10^7 years before going nova, or supernova. In this time,
they don't live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane, so any
of these (if assumed to be the sources of GRB's) will be in the plane of the
galaxy.
Then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the
various satellites around the solar system, (Pioneer Venus has one, either
Pion. 10 or 11, GINGA, and of course BATSE) and we do distribution tests on our
catalog. These tests all show, that the bursts have an isotropic
distribution(evenly spread out in a radial direction), and they show signs of
homogeneity, i.e. they do not clump in any one direction. So, unless we are
sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy, we are sampling the UNIVERSE.
Not cool, if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things. Now, I
suppose you are saying, "Well, we stil only may be sampling from inside the
disk." Well, not necessarily. Remember, we have what is more or less an
interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out
to beyond Pluto(pioneer 11), so we should be able, with all of our detectors de
tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite. Here's an
analogy: You see a plane overhead. You measure the angle of the plane from
the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system. One of your friends a mile
away sees the same plane, and measures the angle from the zero point of his
arbitrary system, which is the same as yours. The two angles are different,
and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst, and maybe
find a source. To my knowledge, no one has been able to do this.
I should throw in why halo, and corona models don't work, also. As I
said before, looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts, (short
timescales, high energy) black holes, and pulsars exhibit much of this type of
behavior. If this is the case, as I said before, these stars seem to be bound
to the disk of the galaxy, especially the most energetic of the these sources.
When you look at a simulated model, where the bursts are confined to the disk,
but you sample out to large distances, say 750 mpc, you should definitely see
not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction, but a clumping of sources
in the direction of the galactic center. As I said before, there is none of
these characteristics.
I think that's all of it...if someone needs clarification, or knows
something that I don't know, by all means correct me. I had the honor of
taking the Bursts class with the person who has done the modeling of these
different distributions, so we pretty much kicked around every possible
distribution there was, and some VERY outrageous sources. Colliding pulsars,
black holes, pulsars that are slowing down...stuff like that. It's a fun
field.
Complaints and corrections to: belgarath@vax1.mankato.msus.edu or
post here.
-jeremy
after prepro Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters Where are they
From belgarathvax1mankatomsusedu
Organization Mankato State University
NntpPostingHost vax1mankatomsusedu
Lines 67
In article 1radsrattaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away
Given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges
my own pet theory is that its Flying saucers entering
hyperspace
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in
pat
Well lets seeI took a class on this last fall and I have no
notes so Ill try to wing it
Heres how I understand it Remember from stellar evolution that
black holes and neutron starspulsars are formed from high mass stars
Mstar14Msun High mass stars live fast and burn hard taking
appoximately 10^510^7 years before going nova or supernova In this time
they dont live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane so any
of these if assumed to be the sources of GRBs will be in the plane of the
galaxy
Then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the
various satellites around the solar system Pioneer Venus has one either
Pion 10 or 11 GINGA and of course BATSE and we do distribution tests on our
catalog These tests all show that the bursts have an isotropic
distributionevenly spread out in a radial direction and they show signs of
homogeneity ie they do not clump in any one direction So unless we are
sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy we are sampling the UNIVERSE
Not cool if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things Now I
suppose you are saying Well we stil only may be sampling from inside the
disk Well not necessarily Remember we have what is more or less an
interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out
to beyond Plutopioneer 11 so we should be able with all of our detectors de
tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite Heres an
analogy You see a plane overhead You measure the angle of the plane from
the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system One of your friends a mile
away sees the same plane and measures the angle from the zero point of his
arbitrary system which is the same as yours The two angles are different
and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst and maybe
find a source To my knowledge no one has been able to do this
I should throw in why halo and corona models dont work also As I
said before looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts short
timescales high energy black holes and pulsars exhibit much of this type of
behavior If this is the case as I said before these stars seem to be bound
to the disk of the galaxy especially the most energetic of the these sources
When you look at a simulated model where the bursts are confined to the disk
but you sample out to large distances say 750 mpc you should definitely see
not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction but a clumping of sources
in the direction of the galactic center As I said before there is none of
these characteristics
I think thats all of itif someone needs clarification or knows
something that I dont know by all means correct me I had the honor of
taking the Bursts class with the person who has done the modeling of these
different distributions so we pretty much kicked around every possible
distribution there was and some VERY outrageous sources Colliding pulsars
black holes pulsars that are slowing downstuff like that Its a fun
field
Complaints and corrections to belgarathvax1mankatomsusedu or
post here
jeremy
preprocess doc From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Astronomy Program
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 23
In article <28641@galaxy.ucr.edu> datadec@ucrengr.ucr.edu (kevin marcus) writes:
>Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
>map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae,
>and so forth? If so, is there any ftp site where I can get one?
I posted my public-domain MSDOS program "sunlight.zip" to "sci.astro" yesterday.
It easily locates the sun, moon, and planets, and can also be used to
locate other objects if you input their Right Ascesion and Declination.
Use "uudecode" to extract.
--
Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
"Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism"
- Heidi Hartmann and Amy Bridges,
quoted by Catharine MacKinnon above the first chapter
of her "Toward a Feminist Theory of the State"
after prepro From sheaffernetcomcom Robert Sheaffer
Subject Re Astronomy Program
Organization Netcom Online Communication Services 408 2419760 guest
Lines 23
In article 28641galaxyucredu datadecucrengrucredu kevin marcus writes
Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae
and so forth If so is there any ftp site where I can get one
I posted my publicdomain MSDOS program sunlightzip to sciastro yesterday
It easily locates the sun moon and planets and can also be used to
locate other objects if you input their Right Ascesion and Declination
Use uudecode to extract
Robert Sheaffer Scepticus Maximus sheaffernetcomcom
Past Chairman The Bay Area Skeptics for whom I speak only when authorized
Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism
Heidi Hartmann and Amy Bridges
quoted by Catharine MacKinnon above the first chapter
of her Toward a Feminist Theory of the State
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Nicknames
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21
In article <1993Apr18.231914.143616@zeus.calpoly.edu>,
jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) wrote:
> >Mathew "FAQ" can't remember his last name
> >Keith "Lie Tally .sig" Ryan
> >Kent "Finn-tastic" Sandvick
> >Cindy "Popsicle Toes" Kandolf
> >Jim "Face .sig" Tims
> >Simon "Clip-that-theist" Clippendale
> >Umar "Reasonable" Khan
> >Rob "Argue with G-d" Strom
> >Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> >Maddi "Never a useful post" Hausmann
>
> Hey, what about an affectionate nickname for me?
You could take my wrongly spelled surname :-).
Cheers,
Kent Sandvik
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Nicknames
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21
In article 1993Apr18231914143616zeuscalpolyedu
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch wrote
Mathew FAQ cant remember his last name
Keith Lie Tally sig Ryan
Kent Finntastic Sandvick
Cindy Popsicle Toes Kandolf
Jim Face sig Tims
Simon Clipthattheist Clippendale
Umar Reasonable Khan
Rob Argue with Gd Strom
Dave Buckminster Fuller
Maddi Never a useful post Hausmann
Hey what about an affectionate nickname for me
You could take my wrongly spelled surname
Cheers
Kent Sandvik
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: sgi
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr3.100039.15879@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
|> In <1p8ivt$cfj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next?
|>
|> I don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying
|> (1) that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it,
|> and
|> (2) that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC.
I was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa
against Rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally
insulting.
I think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long
posting, and to say
"I don't know if you are doing so, but it
seems you are implying....."
is at the very best quite disingenuous, and perhaps even
dishonest. If anyone care to dig back and read the full
posting, they will see nothing of the kind.
I trust you don't deny that Islamic teaching has "something
to do" with the fatwa against Rushdie?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization sgi
Lines 28
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr310003915879monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In 1p8ivtcfjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next
I dont know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying
1 that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it
and
2 that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC
I was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa
against Rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally
insulting
I think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long
posting and to say
I dont know if you are doing so but it
seems you are implying
is at the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even
dishonest If anyone care to dig back and read the full
posting they will see nothing of the kind
I trust you dont deny that Islamic teaching has something
to do with the fatwa against Rushdie
jon
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: The nonexistance of Atheists?!
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr15.192037.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 26
>DATE: 15 Apr 93 19:20:37 EDT
>FROM: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>
>In article <bskendigC5JCwx.Jzn@netcom.com>, bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>>
>> [s.c.a quotes deleted]
>>
>> It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
>> to be atheist. There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
>> I thought...
>
>Well, that explains some things; I posted on soc.religion.islam
>with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
>are lying evil scum, and asked if it was a commonly-held idea
>among muslims. I got no response. Asking about the unknown,
>I guess...
You should have tried one of the soc.culture groups in the Middle East
or South Asia area (they are a little more open than the Islam channel).
I think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the
world created itself (or something like that) so each particle is a God
which created the other Gods. The soc.culture.african is also nice for
some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion. Especially
when Sudan is mentioned.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re The nonexistance of Atheists
InReplyTo 1993Apr151920371eaglewesleyanedu
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 26
DATE 15 Apr 93 192037 EDT
FROM kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
In article bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes
[sca quotes deleted]
It really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means
to be atheist There are more Bobby Mozumder clones in the world than
I thought
Well that explains some things I posted on socreligionislam
with an attached quote by Bobby to the effect that all atheists
are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonlyheld idea
among muslims I got no response Asking about the unknown
I guess
You should have tried one of the socculture groups in the Middle East
or South Asia area they are a little more open than the Islam channel
I think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the
world created itself or something like that so each particle is a God
which created the other Gods The soccultureafrican is also nice for
some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion Especially
when Sudan is mentioned
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 16, 1993
1. The Magellan mission at Venus continues normally, gathering gravity
data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper
mantle which can be correlated to surface topography. Spacecraft
performance is nominal.
2. Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
3. No significant activities are expected next week, as preparations
for aerobraking continue on schedule.
4. On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Magellan Update 041693
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 25
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 16 1993
1 The Magellan mission at Venus continues normally gathering gravity
data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper
mantle which can be correlated to surface topography Spacecraft
performance is nominal
2 Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
3 No significant activities are expected next week as preparations
for aerobraking continue on schedule
4 On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis Chamberlin)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 31
----- News saved at 23 Apr 93 22:22:40 GMT
In article <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
>
> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
>
> This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary,
>ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!
> "Light-Years" between galaxies is a misnomer. The distance is
>closer to zero, as time and matter are characteristics of this phase
>of reality, which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion.
>(defining edge = 0 ether spin)
> To find out about all of this, I recommend studying history.
Well, I'm working on it, but getting a little impatient. So far,
I've made it through Egyptian, Chinese, and Greek cultures, and
up through the Rennaisance. But so far, these insights just don't
seem to be gelling. Perhaps it's in an appendix somewhere.
In its own right, though, the history is kind of fun. Lots of
good yarns in there, with varied and interesting characters. And,
more to come.
after prepro From drchambetekig5pentekcom Dennis Chamberlin
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo drchambetekig5pentekcom
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 31
News saved at 23 Apr 93 222240 GMT
In article 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY
This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary
ether sucking structures AND why we observe orbital motion
LightYears between galaxies is a misnomer The distance is
closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase
of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion
defining edge 0 ether spin
To find out about all of this I recommend studying history
Well Im working on it but getting a little impatient So far
Ive made it through Egyptian Chinese and Greek cultures and
up through the Rennaisance But so far these insights just dont
seem to be gelling Perhaps its in an appendix somewhere
In its own right though the history is kind of fun Lots of
good yarns in there with varied and interesting characters And
more to come
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Nicknames
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 36
Maddi Hausmann (madhaus@netcom.com) wrote:
: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes: >
: >We could start with those posters who annoy us the most, like Bobby or
: >Bill.
: Your wish is my command.
: Bill "Shit-stirrer" Connor
: Bobby "Circular" Mozumder
I'm not sure my new nom d'net is exactly appropriate, but it comes
very close. Considering what I have to wade through before I make one
of my insightful, dead-on-the-money repsonses, I have to agree that
something's getting stirred up. I would like to believe my
characterization of what I respond to would be kinder though, but if
you insist ...
I am also surprised to find that I have offended anyone, but in some
cases it's unavoidable if I am to say anything at all. For those to
whom fairness is important, check out my contributions, haven't I been
most generous and patient, a veritable paragon of gentility?
Oh, BTW, I don't mind being paired with Bobby; I admire his tenacity.
How many of you would do as well in this hostile environment - you
think -I'm- offensive ?! read your own posts ...
Love and kisses,
Bill
P.S.
My name is Conner, not Connor. No point in humiliating the innocents.
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Nicknames
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 36
Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom wrote
jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only writes
We could start with those posters who annoy us the most like Bobby or
Bill
Your wish is my command
Bill Shitstirrer Connor
Bobby Circular Mozumder
Im not sure my new nom dnet is exactly appropriate but it comes
very close Considering what I have to wade through before I make one
of my insightful deadonthemoney repsonses I have to agree that
somethings getting stirred up I would like to believe my
characterization of what I respond to would be kinder though but if
you insist
I am also surprised to find that I have offended anyone but in some
cases its unavoidable if I am to say anything at all For those to
whom fairness is important check out my contributions havent I been
most generous and patient a veritable paragon of gentility
Oh BTW I dont mind being paired with Bobby I admire his tenacity
How many of you would do as well in this hostile environment you
think Im offensive read your own posts
Love and kisses
Bill
PS
My name is Conner not Connor No point in humiliating the innocents
preprocess doc From: Patrick C Leger <pl1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sophomore, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
You know, it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary.
So, she's married to Joseph. She gets knocked up. What do you think
ol' Joe will do if he finds she's been getting around? So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant. Actually, it
can't be all THAT ridiculous, considering the number of people that
believe it. Anyway, she never tells anyone the truth, and even tells
poor little Jesus that he's hot shit, the Son of God. Everyone else
tells him this too, since they've bought Mary's story. So, what does
Mary actually turn out to be? An adultress and a liar, and the cause of
mankind's greatest folly...
Just my recently-minted two cents.
Chris
----------------------
Chris Leger
Sophomore, Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Remember...if you don't like what somebody is saying, you can always
ignore them!
after prepro From Patrick C Leger
Subject Its all Marys fault
Organization Sophomore Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 23
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
You know it just occurred to me today that this whole Christian thing
can be blamed solely on Mary
So shes married to Joseph She gets knocked up What do you think
ol Joe will do if he finds shes been getting around So Mary comes up
with this ridiculous story about God making her pregnant Actually it
cant be all THAT ridiculous considering the number of people that
believe it Anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells
poor little Jesus that hes hot shit the Son of God Everyone else
tells him this too since theyve bought Marys story So what does
Mary actually turn out to be An adultress and a liar and the cause of
mankinds greatest folly
Just my recentlyminted two cents
Chris
Chris Leger
Sophomore Carnegie Mellon Computer Engineering
Rememberif you dont like what somebody is saying you can always
ignore them
preprocess doc From: cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook)
Subject: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Reply-To: cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook)
NNTP-Posting-Host: cook.mdc.com
All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year
moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.
If memory serves, the $25k prize would not have been enough to totally
reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects (such as
Fokker's, Nungesser and other multi-engine projects). However Lindbergh
ultimately kept his total costs below that amount.
But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.
Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of
today?
Layne Cook
cook@apt.mdc.com
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co.
after prepro From cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook
Subject Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM
Lines 19
Distribution world
ReplyTo cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook
NNTPPostingHost cookmdccom
All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year
moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers
If memory serves the 25k prize would not have been enough to totally
reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects such as
Fokkers Nungesser and other multiengine projects However Lindbergh
ultimately kept his total costs below that amount
But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
realize that much more was at stake than 25000
Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of
today
Layne Cook
cookaptmdccom
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 25
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <C5rHoC.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes:
> I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this, in
> connection with their proposal for an early manned landing. Sorry I don't
> rember where I heard this, but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable.
> Anyone else know anything on this angle?
The General Chairman is Paul Bialla, who is some official of General
Dynamics.
The emphasis seems to be on a scaled-down, fast plan to put *people*
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflight-funding climate. You'd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft, but
there's not a hint of this in the brochure.
> Hrumph. They didn't send _me_ anything :(
You're not hanging out with the Right People, apparently.
Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | "I'm gonna keep on writing songs
Fermilab | until I write the song
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | that makes the guys in Detroit
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | who draw the cars
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | put tailfins on 'em again."
--John Prine
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 25
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins writes
I remeber reading the comment that General Dynamics was tied into this in
connection with their proposal for an early manned landing Sorry I dont
rember where I heard this but Im fairly sure it was somewhere reputable
Anyone else know anything on this angle
The General Chairman is Paul Bialla who is some official of General
Dynamics
The emphasis seems to be on a scaleddown fast plan to put people
on the Moon in an impoverished spaceflightfunding climate Youd
think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for
modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but
theres not a hint of this in the brochure
Hrumph They didnt send _me_ anything
Youre not hanging out with the Right People apparently
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey Im gonna keep on writing songs
Fermilab until I write the song
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET that makes the guys in Detroit
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV who draw the cars
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS put tailfins on em again
John Prine
preprocess doc From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject: Level 5
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: sor.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 15
According to a Software engineering professor here, what was actually rated
level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle,
by not means all of it.
Interesting note: 90% of the software development groups surveyed were at
level 1. The ibm shuttle groups was the *only* one at level 5!
---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/ Nathan F. Wallace C/C/ "Reality Is" C/
C/ e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu C/C/ ancient Alphaean proverb C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
after prepro From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject Level 5
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost sorcscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University Computer Science Dept
Lines 15
According to a Software engineering professor here what was actually rated
level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle
by not means all of it
Interesting note 90 of the software development groups surveyed were at
level 1 The ibm shuttle groups was the only one at level 5
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C Nathan F Wallace CC Reality Is C
C email wallacencscolostateedu CC ancient Alphaean proverb C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
preprocess doc From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 15
In a message of <Apr 19 04:55>, jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>In article <1993Apr19.020359.26996@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
>writes:
MB> So the
MB> 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
JG>Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
Couldn't we just say periapsis or apoapsis?
--- msged 2.07
after prepro From MarkPerewp201f208n103z1fidonetorg
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 15
In a message of jgarlandkeanucsmunca writes
In article 1993Apr1902035926996sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader
writes
MB So the
MB 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
JGSorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language
Couldnt we just say periapsis or apoapsis
msged 207
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.234427.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 27
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Okay here is what I have so far:
Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
that mean no resupply or ??
Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.
Contest open to different classes of participants.
New Mexico State has semi-challenged University of Alaska (any branch) to put a
team together and to do it..
Any other University/College/Institute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school? Say it here.
I like the idea of having atleast a russian team.
Some prefer using new technology, others old or ..
The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia.. Atleast in that basic vein of endevour..
Any other suggestions?
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
ArticleID aurora1993Apr202344271
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 27
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Okay here is what I have so far
Have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon
set up a habitate and have the humans spend one earth year on the moon Does
that mean no resupply or
Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money
Contest open to different classes of participants
New Mexico State has semichallenged University of Alaska any branch to put a
team together and to do it
Any other UniversityCollegeInstitute of Higher Learning wish to make a
counter challenge or challenge another school Say it here
I like the idea of having atleast a russian team
Some prefer using new technology others old or
The basic idea of the New Moon Race is like the Solar Car Race acrossed
Australia Atleast in that basic vein of endevour
Any other suggestions
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr23.001718.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>> Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
>> when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining.
>===
>I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
>miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
>people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
>mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).
Lot's of these small miners are no longer miners. THey are people living
rent free on Federal land, under the claim of being a miner. The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining, do not
often even live their full time, and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage.
These minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's when the west was
uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier. Times change
people change. DEAL. you don't have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever. Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular, is spouting nonsense. THis has been a long term
federal welfare program, that has outlived it's usefulness.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr230017181auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining
I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point
Lots of these small miners are no longer miners THey are people living
rent free on Federal land under the claim of being a miner The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining do not
often even live their full time and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage
These minign statutes were created inthe 1830s1870s when the west was
uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier Times change
people change DEAL you dont have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular is spouting nonsense THis has been a long term
federal welfare program that has outlived its usefulness
pat
preprocess doc From: glover@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Eric Glover)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Nntp-Posting-Host: unseen1.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Lines: 45
In article <1993Apr06.020021.186145@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
>and had made it first. They could have beaten us if either:
>* Their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back,
>and/or
>* A Saturn V went boom.
The Apollo fire was harsh, A Saturn V explosion would have been
hurtful but The Soviets winning would have been crushing. That could have
been *the* technological turning point for the US turning us
from Today's "We can do anything, we're *the* Super Power" to a much more
reserved attitude like the Soviet Program today.
Kennedy was gone by 68\69, the war was still on is the east, I think
the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon
by 70 would have been dead with Nasa trying to figure were they went wrong.
>If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
>head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
>determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
>Moon). Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
>upon whether the Soviets tried to go. Setting up a lunar base
>would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
>that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
>of going to Mars (at least in the short run). Thus we would
>have concentrated on the moon.
I speulate that:
+The Saturn program would have been pushed into
the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil.
Nixon still wins.
+The Shuttle was never proposed and Skylab never built.
+By 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis.
+A string of small launches mark the mid seventies.
+By 76 the goal of a US man on the moon is dead and the US space program
drifts till the present day.
>/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
>| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving |
>| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the |
>| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." |
>| <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> |
after prepro From glovercasbahacnsnwuedu Eric Glover
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
NntpPostingHost unseen1acnsnwuedu
Organization Northwestern University Evanston Illinois
Lines 45
In article 1993Apr06020021186145zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first They could have beaten us if either
Their rocket hadnt blown up on the pad thus setting them back
andor
A Saturn V went boom
The Apollo fire was harsh A Saturn V explosion would have been
hurtful but The Soviets winning would have been crushing That could have
been the technological turning point for the US turning us
from Todays We can do anything were the Super Power to a much more
reserved attitude like the Soviet Program today
Kennedy was gone by 68\69 the war was still on is the east I think
the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon
by 70 would have been dead with Nasa trying to figure were they went wrong
If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon
I speulate that
The Saturn program would have been pushed into
the 70s with cost over runs that would just be too evil
Nixon still wins
The Shuttle was never proposed and Skylab never built
By 73 the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis
A string of small launches mark the mid seventies
By 76 the goal of a US man on the moon is dead and the US space program
drifts till the present day
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving
the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the
Moon and returning him safely to the Earth
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 37
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>On 4 Apr 1993 20:31:10 -0400, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) said:
>Pat> In article <1993Apr2.213917.1@aurora.alaska.edu>
>Pat> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>Question is can someone give me 10 examples of direct NASA/Space related
>>research that helped humanity in general? It will be interesting to see..
>Pat> TANG :-) Mylar I think. I think they also pushed Hi Tech
>Pat> Composites for airframes. Look at Fly by Wire.
>Swept wings--if you fly in airliners you've reaped the benefits.
Didn't one of the early jet fighters have these?
I also think the germans did some work on these in WWII.
>Winglets. Area ruling. Digital fly by wire. Ride smoothing.
A lot of this was also done by the military...
>Microwave landing systems. Supercritical wings. General aviation
>air foils.
Weren't the first microwave landing systems from WWII too?
>--
>Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
>shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
> "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot
Egad! I'm disagreeing with Mary Shafer!
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 37
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes
On 4 Apr 1993 203110 0400 prbaccessdigexcom Pat said
Pat In article 1993Apr22139171auroraalaskaedu
Pat nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Question is can someone give me 10 examples of direct NASASpace related
research that helped humanity in general It will be interesting to see
Pat TANG Mylar I think I think they also pushed Hi Tech
Pat Composites for airframes Look at Fly by Wire
Swept wingsif you fly in airliners youve reaped the benefits
Didnt one of the early jet fighters have these
I also think the germans did some work on these in WWII
Winglets Area ruling Digital fly by wire Ride smoothing
A lot of this was also done by the military
Microwave landing systems Supercritical wings General aviation
air foils
Werent the first microwave landing systems from WWII too
Mary Shafer DoD 0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility Edwards CA
shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Of course I dont speak for NASA
A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all Unknown US fighter pilot
Egad Im disagreeing with Mary Shafer
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bible Quiz
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 14
<kmr4.1582.734882394@po.CWRU.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <kmr4.1582.734882394@po.CWRU.edu>
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> Would you mind e-mailing me the questions, with the pairs of answers?
> I would love to have them for the next time a Theist comes to my door!
I'd like this too... maybe you should post an answer key after a while?
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
It is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your
life.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Bible Quiz
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
Would you mind emailing me the questions with the pairs of answers
I would love to have them for the next time a Theist comes to my door
Id like this too maybe you should post an answer key after a while
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
It is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your
life
preprocess doc From: gmiller@worldbank.org (Gene C. Miller)
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
Organization: worldbank.org
Lines: 37
In article <1993Apr6.013657.5691@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
(David Nye) wrote:
>
> [reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)]
>
> >>> There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
> >>>that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
> >>>what it is). Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
> >>>atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
> >>> I accept nothing on blind faith.
>
> >>Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns! Need I say more?
>
> >...I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god
> >existing or not. Some folks call this agnosticism. It does not suffer
> >from "blind faith" at all. I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".
>
> For many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
> epistemological consideration: what do we accept as a reliable way of
> knowing? There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
> of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist. Most
> philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
> must be accepted on faith. Faith is belief without a sound logical
> basis or empirical evidence. It is a reliable way of knowing?
>
Could you expand on your definition of knowing? It seems a bit monolithic
here, but I'm not sure that you intend that. Don't we need, for example, to
distinguish between "knowing" 2 plus 2 equals 4 (or 2 apples plus 2 apples
equals 4 apples), the French "knowing" that Jerry Lewis is an auteur, and
what it means to say we "know" what Socrates said?
> This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
> must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell
I like this epigraph. Perhaps the issue is learning which, if any,
absurdities merit further exploration...Gene
after prepro From gmillerworldbankorg Gene C Miller
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
Organization worldbankorg
Lines 37
In article 1993Apr60136575691cnsvaxuwecedu nyedacnsvaxuwecedu
David Nye wrote
[reply to zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon]
There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
what it is Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
I accept nothing on blind faith
Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns Need I say more
I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god
existing or not Some folks call this agnosticism It does not suffer
from blind faith at all I think of it as Dont worry be happy
For many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence It is a reliable way of knowing
Could you expand on your definition of knowing It seems a bit monolithic
here but Im not sure that you intend that Dont we need for example to
distinguish between knowing 2 plus 2 equals 4 or 2 apples plus 2 apples
equals 4 apples the French knowing that Jerry Lewis is an auteur and
what it means to say we know what Socrates said
This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities Bertrand Russell
I like this epigraph Perhaps the issue is learning which if any
absurdities merit further explorationGene
preprocess doc From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Russian Phobos Mission
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 6
Did the Russian spacecraft(s) on the ill-fated Phobos mission a few
years ago send back any images of the Martian moon? If so, does anyone know if
they're housed at an ftp site?
Thanks.
after prepro From arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler
Subject Russian Phobos Mission
Organization California State University Sacramento
Lines 6
Did the Russian spacecrafts on the illfated Phobos mission a few
years ago send back any images of the Martian moon If so does anyone know if
theyre housed at an ftp site
Thanks
preprocess doc From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Lines: 17
Phil G. Fraering writes:
> Mark Brader writes:
>> Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>> me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>> has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>> Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>> Same person?
> No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
> is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.
You may change that to 100% certainty. But to clarify, Spacewatch is a
University of Arizona project using a telescope of the Steward Observatory
located on Kitt Peak. It is not associated with Kitt Peak National
Observatory, other than sharing a mountain.
after prepro From tholengalileoifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Institute for Astronomy Hawaii
Lines 17
Phil G Fraering writes
Mark Brader writes
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
No I estimate a 99 probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory
You may change that to 100 certainty But to clarify Spacewatch is a
University of Arizona project using a telescope of the Steward Observatory
located on Kitt Peak It is not associated with Kitt Peak National
Observatory other than sharing a mountain
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <1psgs1$so4@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>|
>|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
>|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. On the other
>|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
>|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
>|can't do.
>|
>
>What do you mean? Overstress the wings, and they fail at teh joints?
>
>You'll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands.
No, they fold on the dotted line. Look at pictures of carriers with loads of
a/c on the deck, wings all neatly folded.
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |God gave us weather so we wouldn't complain
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |about other things.
PADI DM-54909 |
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
In article 1psgs1so4accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do
What do you mean Overstress the wings and they fail at teh joints
Youll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands
No they fold on the dotted line Look at pictures of carriers with loads of
ac on the deck wings all neatly folded
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home God gave us weather so we wouldnt complain
pyronskndivdsegticom about other things
PADI DM54909
preprocess doc From: sichase@csa2.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <pgf.735606045@srl02.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes...
>Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:
>....
>>people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
>>and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky... :-D
>
>Seen that movie already. Or one just like it.
>Come to think of it, they might send someone on
>a quest to get rid of the dang thing...
Actually, the idea, like most good ideas, comes from Jules Verne, not
_The Gods Must Be Crazy._ In one of his lesser known books (I can't
remember which one right now), the protagonists are in a balloon gondola,
travelling over Africa on their way around the world in the balloon, when
one of them drops a fob watch. They then speculate about the reaction
of the natives to finding such a thing, dropped straight down from heaven.
But the notion is not pursued further than that.
-Scott
-------------------- New .sig under construction
Scott I. Chase Please be patient
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV Thank you
after prepro From sichasecsa2lblgov SCOTT I CHASE
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory Berkeley CA USA
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost 1283254197
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering writes
JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes
people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up
and see a can of Budweiser flying across the sky D
Seen that movie already Or one just like it
Come to think of it they might send someone on
a quest to get rid of the dang thing
Actually the idea like most good ideas comes from Jules Verne not
_The Gods Must Be Crazy_ In one of his lesser known books I cant
remember which one right now the protagonists are in a balloon gondola
travelling over Africa on their way around the world in the balloon when
one of them drops a fob watch They then speculate about the reaction
of the natives to finding such a thing dropped straight down from heaven
But the notion is not pursued further than that
Scott
New sig under construction
Scott I Chase Please be patient
SICHASECSA2LBLGOV Thank you
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Drag free satellites (was: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: JPL
Joe,
your description sounds like one of the gravity probe spacecraft
ideas.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Drag free satellites was Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 8
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords JPL
Joe
your description sounds like one of the gravity probe spacecraft
ideas
pat
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
Lines: 37
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 37
In article <sandvik-140493185034@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
>Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 01:51:57 GMT
>In article <healta.135.734811375@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu
>(TAMMY R HEALY) wrote:
>> Ezekiel 28:17 says, Your hart was filled with pride because of all your
>> beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. Therefore
>> I have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the
>> curious gaze of Kings."
>
>> For those of you who are Bible scholars, you knowthat the 1st 11 verses
>> refer to the Prince of Tyre. This is a prophesy about and addressed to the
>> human prince. Verses 12-19 refer to the King of Tyre, which is a term for
>> Satan.
>
>Tammy, what's the rationale to connect the prince of Tyre with Satan,
>could you give us more rational bible cites, thanks? I'm afraid that
>if this is not the case, your thinking model falls apart like a house
>of cards. But let's see!
>
>Cheers,
>Kent
>---
>sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
At the time Ezekiel was written, Israel was in apostacy again and if I'm not
mistaken, Tyre was about to make war on Israel. Like I said, the Prince of
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre. He was a wicked man. By calling Satan
the King of Tyre, Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre.
Don't think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox Christian one,
although most Christian Bible commentaries interpret the King of Tyre as
being a reference to Satan. (I haven't read Ezekiel throughly in a long
time.)
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Lines 37
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 37
In article sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 015157 GMT
In article healtasaturnwwcedu
TAMMY R HEALY wrote
Ezekiel 2817 says Your hart was filled with pride because of all your
beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor Therefore
I have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the
curious gaze of Kings
For those of you who are Bible scholars you knowthat the 1st 11 verses
refer to the Prince of Tyre This is a prophesy about and addressed to the
human prince Verses 1219 refer to the King of Tyre which is a term for
Satan
Tammy whats the rationale to connect the prince of Tyre with Satan
could you give us more rational bible cites thanks Im afraid that
if this is not the case your thinking model falls apart like a house
of cards But lets see
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
At the time Ezekiel was written Israel was in apostacy again and if Im not
mistaken Tyre was about to make war on Israel Like I said the Prince of
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre He was a wicked man By calling Satan
the King of Tyre Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre
Dont think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox Christian one
although most Christian Bible commentaries interpret the King of Tyre as
being a reference to Satan I havent read Ezekiel throughly in a long
time
Tammy
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 26
<1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu> <STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu> <1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu>,<STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>
<1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu's message of 21 Apr 1993 19:16:51 GMT
In article <1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney) writes:
In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)
Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!
Hell, yes. I'm not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell
me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is, at
least not until they can make their mind up long enough
to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two.
Seriously though. If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective, what answer do you think you'd get? What if you asked
in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-)
* Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" *
* If you ever have to go to Shoeburyness *
* Take the A-road, the ok road, that's the best! *
* Go motoring on The A13! - BB 1983 *
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 26
1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu 1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu
1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto sysmgrkingengumdedus message of 21 Apr 1993 191651 GMT
In article 1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney writes
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method
Sherzer Methodology
Hell yes Im not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell
me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is at
least not until they can make their mind up long enough
to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two
Seriously though If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective what answer do you think youd get What if you asked
in 1765 1815 1865 1915 and 1945 respectively
Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory
steinlylickucscedu standard disclaimer
If you ever have to go to Shoeburyness
Take the Aroad the ok road thats the best
Go motoring on The A13 BB 1983
preprocess doc From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 20
In article <STEINLY.93Apr23130246@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>In article <1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu> jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust) writes:
>
> In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> > If the new Kuiper belt object *is* called 'Karla', the next
> >one should be called 'Smiley'.
>
> Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
> object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.
>
>As it happens the _second_ one is Karla. The first one was
>Smiley. All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course,
>but I think they might let this one slide...
Gee, I feel so ignorant now...
Research, then post.
James Nicoll
after prepro From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Western Ontario London
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 20
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
In article 1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust writes
In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
If the new Kuiper belt object is called Karla the next
one should be called Smiley
Unless Im imaging things always a possibility 1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year is known as Smiley
As it happens the _second_ one is Karla The first one was
Smiley All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course
but I think they might let this one slide
Gee I feel so ignorant now
Research then post
James Nicoll
preprocess doc From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Subject: SSF Redesign: Constellation
Summary: decentralize & automate functions
Keywords: space station, constellation
Article-I.D.: techbook.C51z6E.CL1
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Lines: 89
SSF is up for redesign again. Let's do it right this
time! Let's step back and consider the functionality we want:
[1] microgravity/vacuum process research
[2] life sciences research (adaptation to space)
[3] spacecraft maintenence
The old NASA approach, explified by Shuttle and SSF so far, was to
centralize functionality. These projects failed to meet
their targets by a wide margin: the military and commercial users
took most of their payloads off Shuttle after wasting much effort to
tie their payloads to it, and SSF has crumbled into disorganization
and miscommunication. Over $50 billion has been spent on these
two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement
in commercial space industrialization. Meanwhile, military and commercial
users have come up with a superior strategy for space development: the
constellation.
Firstly, different functions are broken down into different
constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function:
thus we have the GPS/Navstar constellation in 12-hour orbits,
comsats in Clarke and Molniya orbits, etc. Secondly, the task
is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation,
providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed.
SSF's 3 main functions require quite different environments
and are also prime candidates for constellization.
[1] We have the makings of a microgravity constellation now:
COMET and Mir for long-duration flights, Shuttle/Spacelab for
short-duration flights. The best strategy for this area is
inexpensive, incremental improvement: installation of U.S. facilities
on Mir, Shuttle/Mir linkup, and transition from Shuttle/Spacelab
to a much less expensive SSTO/Spacehab/COMET or SSTO/SIF/COMET.
We might also expand the research program to take advantage of
interesting space environments, eg the high-radiation Van Allen belt
or gas/plasma gradients in comet tails. The COMET system can
be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks, where a
station is too large to affordably launch beyond LEO.
[2] We need to study life sciences not just in microgravity,
but also in lunar and Martian gravities, and in the radiation
environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter
of LEO. This is a very long-term, low-priority project, since
astronauts will have little practical use in the space program
until costs come down orders of magnitude. Furthermore, using
astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation,
and the sample size. So I propose LabRatSat, a constellation
tether-bolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity
in super-Van-Allen-Belt orbits that are representative of the
radiation environment encountered on Earth-Moon, Earth-Mars,
Earth-asteroid, etc. trips. The miniaturized life support
machinery might be operated real-time from earth thru a VR
interface. AFter several orbital missions have been flown,
follow-ons can act as LDEFs on the lunar and Martian surface,
testing out the actual environment at low cost before $billions
are spent on astronauts.
[3] By far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in
Clarke orbit. I propose a fleet of small teleoperated
robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can
practice their skills. Once in place, robots can pry stuck
solar arrays and antennas, attach solar battery power packs,
inject fuel, etc. Once the fleet is working, it can be
spun off to commercial company(s) who can work with the comsat
companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards.
By applying the successful constellation strategy, and getting
rid of the failed centralized strategy of STS and old SSF, we
have radically improved the capability of the program while
greatly cutting its cost. For a fraction of SSF's pricetag,
we can fix satellites where the satellites are, we can study
life's adaptation to a much large & more representative variety
of space environments, and we can do microgravity and vacuum
research inexpensively and, if needed, in special-purpose
orbits.
N.B., we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration
as well, greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality.
Mars Network and Artemis are two good examples of this; more ambitiously
we can set up a network of native propellant plants on Mars that can be used
to fuel planet-wide rover/ballistic hopper prospecting and
sample return. The descendants of LabRatSat's technology can
be used as a Mars surface LDEF and to test out closed-ecology
greenhouses on Mars at low cost.
--
Nick Szabo szabo@techboook.com
after prepro From szabotechbookcom Nick Szabo
Subject SSF Redesign Constellation
Summary decentralize automate functions
Keywords space station constellation
ArticleID techbookC51z6ECL1
Organization TECHbooks Public Access UNIX 503 2200636
Lines 89
SSF is up for redesign again Lets do it right this
time Lets step back and consider the functionality we want
[1] microgravityvacuum process research
[2] life sciences research adaptation to space
[3] spacecraft maintenence
The old NASA approach explified by Shuttle and SSF so far was to
centralize functionality These projects failed to meet
their targets by a wide margin the military and commercial users
took most of their payloads off Shuttle after wasting much effort to
tie their payloads to it and SSF has crumbled into disorganization
and miscommunication Over 50 billion has been spent on these
two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement
in commercial space industrialization Meanwhile military and commercial
users have come up with a superior strategy for space development the
constellation
Firstly different functions are broken down into different
constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function
thus we have the GPSNavstar constellation in 12hour orbits
comsats in Clarke and Molniya orbits etc Secondly the task
is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation
providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed
SSFs 3 main functions require quite different environments
and are also prime candidates for constellization
[1] We have the makings of a microgravity constellation now
COMET and Mir for longduration flights ShuttleSpacelab for
shortduration flights The best strategy for this area is
inexpensive incremental improvement installation of US facilities
on Mir ShuttleMir linkup and transition from ShuttleSpacelab
to a much less expensive SSTOSpacehabCOMET or SSTOSIFCOMET
We might also expand the research program to take advantage of
interesting space environments eg the highradiation Van Allen belt
or gasplasma gradients in comet tails The COMET system can
be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks where a
station is too large to affordably launch beyond LEO
[2] We need to study life sciences not just in microgravity
but also in lunar and Martian gravities and in the radiation
environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter
of LEO This is a very longterm lowpriority project since
astronauts will have little practical use in the space program
until costs come down orders of magnitude Furthermore using
astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation
and the sample size So I propose LabRatSat a constellation
tetherbolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity
in superVanAllenBelt orbits that are representative of the
radiation environment encountered on EarthMoon EarthMars
Earthasteroid etc trips The miniaturized life support
machinery might be operated realtime from earth thru a VR
interface AFter several orbital missions have been flown
followons can act as LDEFs on the lunar and Martian surface
testing out the actual environment at low cost before billions
are spent on astronauts
[3] By far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in
Clarke orbit I propose a fleet of small teleoperated
robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can
practice their skills Once in place robots can pry stuck
solar arrays and antennas attach solar battery power packs
inject fuel etc Once the fleet is working it can be
spun off to commercial companys who can work with the comsat
companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards
By applying the successful constellation strategy and getting
rid of the failed centralized strategy of STS and old SSF we
have radically improved the capability of the program while
greatly cutting its cost For a fraction of SSFs pricetag
we can fix satellites where the satellites are we can study
lifes adaptation to a much large more representative variety
of space environments and we can do microgravity and vacuum
research inexpensively and if needed in specialpurpose
orbits
NB we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration
as well greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality
Mars Network and Artemis are two good examples of this more ambitiously
we can set up a network of native propellant plants on Mars that can be used
to fuel planetwide roverballistic hopper prospecting and
sample return The descendants of LabRatSats technology can
be used as a Mars surface LDEF and to test out closedecology
greenhouses on Mars at low cost
Nick Szabo szabotechboookcom
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race, NASA resources, why?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 36
In article <keithley-220493104229@kip-37.apple.com> keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
>Ah, there's the rub. And a catch-22 to boot. For the purposes of a
>contest, you'll probably not compete if'n you can't afford the ride to get
>there. And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable, without
>demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system...
You're assuming that the low-cost delivery system has to be a separate
project. But why? If you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars
in hopes of winning a billion-dollar prize, it is *cheaper* to develop
your own launch system, charging its entire development cost against
your contest entry, than to try to do it with existing launchers. No
other demand is necessary.
>> Any plan for doing
>> sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
>> money in a big way.
>
>This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line. In other
>words, perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology (life support,
>navigation, etc.) could be developed prior to a low cost launch system.
>You wouldn't want to use the expensive stuff forever, but I'd hate to see
>folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac, oops, I mean launch
>system comes on line.
You're assuming that it's going to take a decade to build a new launch
system. But why? The Saturn V took less than six years, depending on
exactly when you date its start. Pegasus took about three from project
start to first flight. Before SDIO chickened out on orbital development,
the target date for an orbital DC-Y flight was 1996. If you really want
speed, consider that the first prototypes of the Thor missile (still in
service as the core of the Delta launcher) shipped to the USAF less
than 18 months after the development go-ahead.
One of the most pernicious myths in this whole business is the belief
that you can't build a launcher without taking ten years and spending
billions of dollars. It isn't true and never was.
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race NASA resources why
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 36
In article keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley writes
Ah theres the rub And a catch22 to boot For the purposes of a
contest youll probably not compete ifn you cant afford the ride to get
there And although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without
demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system
Youre assuming that the lowcost delivery system has to be a separate
project But why If you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars
in hopes of winning a billiondollar prize it is cheaper to develop
your own launch system charging its entire development cost against
your contest entry than to try to do it with existing launchers No
other demand is necessary
Any plan for doing
sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting
money in a big way
This depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line In other
words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support
navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system
You wouldnt want to use the expensive stuff forever but Id hate to see
folks waiting to do anything until a low cost Mac oops I mean launch
system comes on line
Youre assuming that its going to take a decade to build a new launch
system But why The Saturn V took less than six years depending on
exactly when you date its start Pegasus took about three from project
start to first flight Before SDIO chickened out on orbital development
the target date for an orbital DCY flight was 1996 If you really want
speed consider that the first prototypes of the Thor missile still in
service as the core of the Delta launcher shipped to the USAF less
than 18 months after the development goahead
One of the most pernicious myths in this whole business is the belief
that you cant build a launcher without taking ten years and spending
billions of dollars It isnt true and never was
preprocess doc From: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Don M. Gibson)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Nntp-Posting-Host: lexus
Reply-To: dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
Lines: 21
In article F23@zoo.toronto.edu, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
>
>Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
>to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. Of
>course, they may be over-optimistic.
>
>You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
>that would help pay for its development costs.
>
>I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.
this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie. wouldn't there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough? if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10Mil,
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero.
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich.
--DonG
after prepro From dongoakhillspsmotcom Don M Gibson
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
NntpPostingHost lexus
ReplyTo dongoakhillspsmotcom
Organization Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
Lines 21
In article F23zootorontoedu henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation Of
course they may be overoptimistic
You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs
Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough
this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie wouldnt there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough if you have a 1100 chance and it costs you 10Mil
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich
DonG
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Space Event near Los Angeles, CA
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 55
Apologies if this gets posted twice, but I don't think the first one
made it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: OASIS (310) 364-2290
15 April 1993 Los Angeles, CA
LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY L.A.
ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD
On April 21, the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System (LPS) co-
inventor and vice-president of the LPS Coalition, Dr. Robert D.
Waldron. It will be held at 7:30 p.m. at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks, CA.
Dr. Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey, California. He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement. He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization. Along with Dr. David
Criswell, Waldron invented the lunar/solar power system concept.
Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs, legal
experts, and Soviet and U.S. scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System, a pollution-free, energy source with a
potential to power the globe.
For the past three years members of the coalition, nearly half
from California, have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon.
The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae. A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean, sustainable power to meet the Earth's ever
increasing demand using proven, basic technology.
OASIS (Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization) is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society, which is an international non-profit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier.
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard, CA.
WHERE: Rockwell Science Center Auditorium, 1049 Camino
Dos Rios, Thousand Oaks, CA.
DIRECTIONS: Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks, exit onto
Lynn Road heading North (right turn from 101
North, Left turn from 101 South), after about 1/2
mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios, after about 1/2
mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
Colindo, Parking at Top of Hill to the Left
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Space Event near Los Angeles CA
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 55
Apologies if this gets posted twice but I dont think the first one
made it
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact OASIS 310 3642290
15 April 1993 Los Angeles CA
LOCAL NATIONAL SPACE SOCIETY CHAPTERS SPONSOR TALK BY LA
ADVOCATE OF LUNAR POWER SYSTEM AS ENERGY SOURCE FOR THE WORLD
On April 21 the OASIS and Ventura County chapters of the National
Space Society will sponsor a talk by Lunar Power System LPS co
inventor and vicepresident of the LPS Coalition Dr Robert D
Waldron It will be held at 730 pm at the Rockwell Science
Center in Thousand Oaks CA
Dr Waldron is currently a Technical Specialist in Space
Materials Processing with the Space Systems Division of Rockwell
International in Downey California He is a recognized world
authority on lunar materials refinement He has written or
coauthored more than 15 articles or reports on nonterrestrial
materials processing or utilization Along with Dr David
Criswell Waldron invented the lunarsolar power system concept
Momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal
experts and Soviet and US scientists and engineers to build
the Lunar Power System a pollutionfree energy source with a
potential to power the globe
For the past three years members of the coalition nearly half
from California have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific
concept of a solar power system based on the Moon
The LPS concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar
surface and beaming the power to Earth as microwaves transmitted
through orbiting antennae A mature LPS offers an enormous
source of clean sustainable power to meet the Earths ever
increasing demand using proven basic technology
OASIS Organization for the Advancement of Space
Industrialization is the Greater Los Angeles chapter of the
National Space Society which is an international nonprofit
organization that promotes development of the space frontier
The Ventura County chapter is based in Oxnard CA
WHERE Rockwell Science Center Auditorium 1049 Camino
Dos Rios Thousand Oaks CA
DIRECTIONS Ventura Freeway 101 to Thousand Oaks exit onto
Lynn Road heading North right turn from 101
North Left turn from 101 South after about 12
mile turn Left on Camino Dos Rios after about 12
mile make First Right into Rockwell after Camino
Colindo Parking at Top of Hill to the Left
preprocess doc From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 59
nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls) writes:
>In <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> George F. Krumins writes:
>>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
> Umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about
>here ..
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>Greg Nicholls ... : Vidi
>nicho@vnet.ibm.com or : Vici
>nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni
I was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers
have the right to a dark, uncluttered night sky.
Let me give you an example. When you watch TV, they have commercials to pay
for the programming. You accept that as part of watching. If you don't like
it, you can turn it off. If you want to view the night sky, and there is a
floating billboard out there, you can't turn it off. It's the same
reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas.
Pat writes:
George.
It's called a democracy. The majority rules. sorry.
If ytou don't like it, I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies. The theory of government
here is that the majority rules, except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights.
I say:
Any reasonably in-depth perusal of American history will show
you that many WASPs have continued the practices of prejudice,
discrimination, and violence against others of different
races, religions, and beliefs, despite the law.
Pat says:
If you really are annoyed, get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone, where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone. Kind of like the national radio quiet zone. Did you
know about that? near teh Radio telescope observatory in West virginia,
they have a 90?????? mile EMCON zone. Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors, like air conditioners and Vacuums.
In practice, they use it mostly to control large radio users.
I say:
What I'm objecting to here is a floating billboard that, presumably,
would move around in the sky. I, for one, am against legislating
at all. I just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy, and
would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and
aesthetic values that make us human. This includes the need for wild
and unspoiled things, including the night sky.
George
--
| George Krumins /^\ The Serpent and the Rainbow |
| gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu <^^. .^^> |
| Pufferish Observatory <_ (o) _> |
| \_/ |
after prepro From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 59
nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls writes
In George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
Umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about
here
Greg Nicholls Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk Veni
I was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers
have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky
Let me give you an example When you watch TV they have commercials to pay
for the programming You accept that as part of watching If you dont like
it you can turn it off If you want to view the night sky and there is a
floating billboard out there you cant turn it off Its the same
reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas
Pat writes
George
Its called a democracy The majority rules sorry
If ytou dont like it I suggest you modify the constitution to include
a constitutional right to Dark Skies The theory of government
here is that the majority rules except in the nature of fundamental
civil rights
I say
Any reasonably indepth perusal of American history will show
you that many WASPs have continued the practices of prejudice
discrimination and violence against others of different
races religions and beliefs despite the law
Pat says
If you really are annoyed get some legislation
to create a dark sky zone where in all light emissions are protected
in the zone Kind of like the national radio quiet zone Did you
know about that near teh Radio telescope observatory in West virginia
they have a 90 mile EMCON zone Theoretically they can prevent
you from running light AC motors like air conditioners and Vacuums
In practice they use it mostly to control large radio users
I say
What Im objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably
would move around in the sky I for one am against legislating
at all I just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and
would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and
aesthetic values that make us human This includes the need for wild
and unspoiled things including the night sky
George
George Krumins ^\ The Serpent and the Rainbow
gfk39017uxacsouiucedu ^^ ^^
Pufferish Observatory _ o _
\_
preprocess doc From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: The Area Rule
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 12
I read it refered to as the "parabolic cross-section" rule;
the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross-
section as a function of the point fore-and-aft along the
fuselage, a plot that is a **paraboloid** minimizes somethin'
or 'nother (to be technical about it).
--
* Fred Baube (tm) * In times of intellectual ferment,
* baube@optiplan.fi * advantage to him with the intellect
* #include <disclaimer.h> * most fermented
* May '68, Paris: It's Retrospective Time !!
after prepro From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject The Area Rule
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 12
I read it refered to as the parabolic crosssection rule
the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross
section as a function of the point foreandaft along the
fuselage a plot that is a paraboloid minimizes somethin
or nother to be technical about it
Fred Baube tm In times of intellectual ferment
baubeoptiplanfi advantage to him with the intellect
include most fermented
May 68 Paris Its Retrospective Time
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: I don't beleive in you either.
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 9
In article <1993Apr13.213055.818@antioc.antioch.edu>, smauldin@antioc.antioch.edu writes:
|> I stopped believing in you as well, long before the invention of technology.
|>
|> --GOD
|>
Ahhh go back to alt.autotheism where you belong!
Brian /-|-\
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re I dont beleive in you either
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 9
In article 1993Apr13213055818antiocantiochedu smauldinantiocantiochedu writes
I stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology
GOD
Ahhh go back to altautotheism where you belong
Brian \
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Lines: 48
>So then, you require the same amount of evidence to believe that I
>a) own a pair of bluejeans and b) have superhuman powers?
Well, I could use the argument that some here use about "nature" and claim
that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human; superhuman
powers are beyond what a human has, and since you are a human, any powers
you have are not beyond those of a human. Hence, you cannot have superhuman
powers. Sound good to you?
Anyway, to the evidence question: it depends on the context. In this group,
since you are posting from a american college site, I'm willing to take it
as given that you have a pair of blue jeans. And, assuming there is some
coherency in your position, I will take it as a given that you do not have
superhuman powers. Arguments are evidence in themselves, in some respects.
>When you say the "existence of [ sic ] Jesus", I assume that you
>mean just the man, without any special powers, etc.
Yep.
>Many will agree that it is very possible that a man called Jesus DID
>in fact live. In fact, I am willing to agree that there was some man named
>Jesus. I have no reason to believe that there wasn't ever a man.
Good.
>However, most of the claims ARE extradinary: eg virgin birth
>[ virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse ], resurection,
>Son of God, etc. THOSE claims require extra evidence.
"Extra" evidence? Why don't we start with evidence at all?
I cannot see any evidence for the V. B. which the cynics in this group would
ever accept. As for the second, it is the foundation of the religion.
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus (back in the 40 day period)
is a believer, and therefore is discounted by those in this group; since
these are all ancients anyway, one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing. The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else--
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it *means*, so
again I don't see how evidence is possible.
I thus interpret the "extraordinary claims" claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept *any* evidence on the matter.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Lines 48
So then you require the same amount of evidence to believe that I
a own a pair of bluejeans and b have superhuman powers
Well I could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim
that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human superhuman
powers are beyond what a human has and since you are a human any powers
you have are not beyond those of a human Hence you cannot have superhuman
powers Sound good to you
Anyway to the evidence question it depends on the context In this group
since you are posting from a american college site Im willing to take it
as given that you have a pair of blue jeans And assuming there is some
coherency in your position I will take it as a given that you do not have
superhuman powers Arguments are evidence in themselves in some respects
When you say the existence of [ sic ] Jesus I assume that you
mean just the man without any special powers etc
Yep
Many will agree that it is very possible that a man called Jesus DID
in fact live In fact I am willing to agree that there was some man named
Jesus I have no reason to believe that there wasnt ever a man
Good
However most of the claims ARE extradinary eg virgin birth
[ virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse ] resurection
Son of God etc THOSE claims require extra evidence
Extra evidence Why dont we start with evidence at all
I cannot see any evidence for the V B which the cynics in this group would
ever accept As for the second it is the foundation of the religion
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus back in the 40 day period
is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since
these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so
again I dont see how evidence is possible
I thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql7utINN5sg@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
|> >the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong.
|>
|> If you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what
|> purpose in mind. Then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be
|> able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
|> with the general goal.
But now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way,
and I don't think you've even noticed.
In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.
But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
other species, either terrestrial or alien.
Does that make it moral to do so?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Objective morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong
If you were omniscient youd know who exactly did what and with what
purpose in mind Then with a particular goal in mind you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal
But now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way
and I dont think youve even noticed
In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive
But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
other species either terrestrial or alien
Does that make it moral to do so
jon
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 24
In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN
LAWRENCE BISSELL) wrote:
>
> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
> makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
> lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
> writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
> in the process he became a Christian himself.
Seems he didn't understand anything about realities, liar, lunatic
or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of Jesus
message.
Sigh, it seems religion makes your mind/brain filter out anything
that does not fit into your personal scheme.
So anyone that thinks the possibilities with Jesus is bound to the
classical Lewis notion of 'liar, lunatic or saint' is indeed bound
to become a Christian.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 24
In article bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN
LAWRENCE BISSELL wrote
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
Seems he didnt understand anything about realities liar lunatic
or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of Jesus
message
Sigh it seems religion makes your mindbrain filter out anything
that does not fit into your personal scheme
So anyone that thinks the possibilities with Jesus is bound to the
classical Lewis notion of liar lunatic or saint is indeed bound
to become a Christian
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: Where are they now?
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 31
In article <1ql0d3$5vo@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM> geoff@East.Sun.COM writes:
>Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
>posts. The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990, on the
>subject "Re: atheist too?". That was article #473 here; your question
>was article #53766, which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
>the last three years. As others have noted, the current posting rate is
>such that my kill file is depressing large...... Among the posting I
>saved in the early days were articles from the following notables:
>
>>From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
>>From: jchrist@nazareth.israel.rel (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)
>>From: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin)
>>From: perry@apollo.HP.COM (Jim Perry)
>>From: lippard@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
>>From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky)
>
>An interesting bunch.... I wonder where #2 is?
Didn't you hear? His address has changed. He can be reached at the
following address:
dkoresh@branch.davidian.compound.waco.tx.us
I think he was last seen posting to alt.messianic.
Jim
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse | Nothing
after prepro From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Re Where are they now
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 31
In article 1ql0d35vodrpepperEastSunCOM geoffEastSunCOM writes
Your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable
posts The first I captured was by Ken Arromdee on 19 Feb 1990 on the
subject Re atheist too That was article 473 here your question
was article 53766 which is an average of about 48 articles a day for
the last three years As others have noted the current posting rate is
such that my kill file is depressing large Among the posting I
saved in the early days were articles from the following notables
From lorensunlightllnlgov Loren Petrich
From jchristnazarethisraelrel Jesus Christ of Nazareth
From mrcTomobikiChoCACWashingtonEDU Mark Crispin
From perryapolloHPCOM Jim Perry
From lipparduavax0ccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
From minskymediamitedu Marvin Minsky
An interesting bunch I wonder where 2 is
Didnt you hear His address has changed He can be reached at the
following address
dkoreshbranchdavidiancompoundwacotxus
I think he was last seen posting to altmessianic
Jim
If God is dead and the actor plays his part Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse Nothing
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <66486@mimsy.umd.edu>, mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
|> Jeff West writes:
|>
|> >You claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would
|> >also take the time to get it right. But here in less than a couple
|> >generations you've been given ample proof (agreed to by yourself above)
|> >that the "new" versions "tends to be out of step with other modern
|> >translations."
|>
|> What I said was that people took time to *copy* *the* *text* correctly.
|> Translations present completely different issues.
So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had "different
versions" of some OT texts. Did I misunderstand?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization sgi
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 66486mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Jeff West writes
You claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would
also take the time to get it right But here in less than a couple
generations youve been given ample proof agreed to by yourself above
that the new versions tends to be out of step with other modern
translations
What I said was that people took time to copy the text correctly
Translations present completely different issues
So why do I read in the papers that the Qumram texts had different
versions of some OT texts Did I misunderstand
jon
preprocess doc From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Death Penalty / Gulf War
Lines: 232
In article <930419.115707.6f2.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>>In article <930414.121019.7E4.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew
>><mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>> Yes. Fortunately we have right-thinking folks like your good self in power
>>> and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o
>>> thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait. We won the war,
>>> hurrah hurrah!
>>
>> The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way over-exaggerated and
>> exploited for anti-war emotionalism by the liberal news media. The
>> facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians
>> in any other war of comparable size this century!
>
> Let's analyze this claim a little. How is the "size" of a war defined? By
> number of participants? Geographical area? Number of countries involved?
> Number of casualties?
Size of armies, duration, numbers of casualties both absolute and as a
percentage of those involved, geographical area and numbers of countries
too, are all measures of size. In this case I'd say the relevant
statistic would be the number of combatants (total troops) compared to
total casualties from among the total civilian population in the
affected geographical area.
>
> Which other "comparable" wars are we talking about?
Vietnam and Korea might make good comparisons.
>
> Which "liberal news media" are we talking about?
>
Western news in general, but in particular the American "mass media":
CBS, NBC, ABC, etc. The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of "those poor, poor Iraqis" along with "look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits".
>> This was due mostly
>> to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
>> which were technically possible only recently.
>
> I suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too.
I agree.
>
>> How about all the innocent people who died in blanket-bombing in WW2?
>> I don't hear you bemoaning them!
>
> Perhaps because the topic hasn't cropped up. If you want my opinion, I think
> that the blanket bombing of German cities at the end of World War Two was the
> most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in
> centuries. Bomber Harris was no hero of mine.
Perhaps so. And maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too. But that's easy
to say from our "enlightened" viewpoint here in the 90's, right? Back
then, it was *all-out* war, and Germany and Japan had to be squashed.
After all, a million or more British had already died, hundreds of
thousands of French, a couple hundread thousand or so Americans, and
millions of Russians, not to mention a few million Jews, Poles, and
other people of slavic descent in German concentration camps. All
things considered, the fire-bombings and the atomic bomb were
essential (and therefore justified) in bringing the war to a quick
end to avoid even greater allied losses.
I, for one, don't regret it.
>
>> War is never an exact science, but
>> with smart bombs, it's becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
>> of civilian casualties. Sometimes mistakes are made; targets are
>> misidentified; innocents die. That's war the way it really is.
>
> Entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without
> regard for the lives of other people, *that* is the way war really is.
Sure. And it's the people who suffer because of them. All the more
reason to depose these "entrenched political rulers operating in their
own selfish interests"! Or do you mean that this applies to the allies
as well??
>
> Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor, Bosnia, or even Tibet? If
> Iraq is so bad, why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before
> we started bombing?
I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war. It is evident that the West, especially America,
misjudged Hussein drastically. But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world's
oil supply, he had to be stopped. Sure the war could have been
prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the West
before Hussein invaded Kuwait, but it is still *Hussein* who is
responsible for his decision to invade. And once he did so, a
strong response from the West was required.
>
>> Mathew, your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off-base here.
>> You come off sounding like a complete peace-nik idiot, although I
>> feel sure that was not your intent.
>
> What's your intent? To sound like a Loving Christian? Well, you aren't
> doing a very good job of it.
Well, it's not very "loving" to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them. Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion. So, I'd have to
say yes, stopping Hussein was the most "loving" thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest.
>
>> So the Iraqi war was wrong, eh? I'm sure that appeasement would have
>> worked better than war, just like it did in WW2, eh?
>
> Who even mentioned appeasement? And what makes you think the situation is
> even remotely analogous to World War Two?
I mentioned it.
If we hadn't intervened, allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait, then it would
have been appeasement. It is precisely the lessons the world learned
in WW2 that motivated the Western alliance to war. Letting Hitler take
Austria and Czechoslavkia did not stop WW2 from happening, and letting
Hussein keep Kuwait would not have stopped an eventual Gulf War to
protect Saudi Arabia.
>
>> I guess we
>> shouldn't have fought WW2 either -- just think of all those innocent
>> German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg.
>
> Yes, do. Germans are human too, you know.
>
Sure. What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a "Thousand Year Reich". The consequences
stemmed from that.
>> Tyrants like Hussein *have* to be stopped. His kind don't understand
>> diplomacy; they only understand the point of a gun. My only regret is
>> that Bush wimped out and didn't have the military roll into Baghdad, so
>> now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi people's sacrifice (not to
>> mention the 357 Americans who died) was for naught.
>
> I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and Tibet.
>
What should I say about them? Anything in particular?
>> And as for poor, poor Rodney King! Did you ever stop and think *why*
>> the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of "not guilty"?
>
> Yes. Amongst the things I thought were "Hmm, there's an awful lot of white
> people in that jury."
So? It was the *policemen* on trial not Rodney King!! And under American
law they deserved a jury of *their* peers! If there had been black
officers involved, I'm sure their would have been black jurors too.
This point (of allegedly racial motivations) is really shallow.
>
>> Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
>> policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape.
>> But the jury looked at *all* the evidence, evidence which you and I
>> have not seen.
>
> When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone who's lying defenceless on
> the ground, it's rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
> been.
So? It's "hard to imagine"? So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of "Constructing a Logical
Argument"? Can we expect another revision soon?? :) (Just kidding.)
>
> If there is some wonderful evidence, why is it seemingly being kept secret?
> Why not tell everyone what it is? Then everyone could say "Oh, yes, you're
> right, King deserved a good beating", and we could all live happily ever
> after.
I have to admit that I wonder this too. But *neither* the prosecution
nor the defense is talking. So one cannot conclude either way due to
the silence of the principals.
>
>> Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused,
>> whether they be criminals or cops. One is not found guilty if there is
>> a reasonable doubt of one's guilt, and only the jury is in a position
>> to assess the evidence and render a verdict.
>
> Fine, but I'm still finding it hard to imagine what the "reasonable doubt"
> was in this case. I mean, the cops certainly seem to be beating someone
> who's lying defenceless on the ground. What's your explanation? Mass
> hallucination? Orbital mind-control lasers? Faked video footage? Do tell.
>
OK. It certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved.
And frankly, the original "not guilty" verdict baffled me too. But then
I learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict
on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably
would have won, they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated
assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm. A charge, which
news commentators said, was akin to attempted murder under California
law. Based on what the prosecution was asking for, it's evident that
the first jury decided that the officers were "not guilty". Note,
not "not guilty" of doing wrong, but "not guilty" of aggravated assault
with the *intent* of inflicting serious bodily harm. The seeds of the
prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a
verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could.
If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true, then
I feel the "not guilty" verdict was a reasonable one.
>
> mathew
> [ "Thou shalt not kill... unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing,
> in which case thou shalt kill, and also kill anyone who gets in the way,
> as unfortunately it cannot be helped."
> -- Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians ]
Thanks mathew, I like the quote. Pretty funny actually. (I'm a
Monty Python fan, you know. Kind of seems in that vein.)
Of course, oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory. But then, you know that already.
Regards,
Jim B.
Loving Christian :)
after prepro From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Death Penalty Gulf War
Lines 232
In article 9304191157076f2rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 9304141210197E4rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew
writes
Yes Fortunately we have rightthinking folks like your good self in power
and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o
thousands of Iraqis in order to liberate oil^H^H^HKuwait We won the war
hurrah hurrah
The number of civilian Iraqi deaths were way overexaggerated and
exploited for antiwar emotionalism by the liberal news media The
facts are that less Iraqis died in the Gulf War than did civilians
in any other war of comparable size this century
Lets analyze this claim a little How is the size of a war defined By
number of participants Geographical area Number of countries involved
Number of casualties
Size of armies duration numbers of casualties both absolute and as a
percentage of those involved geographical area and numbers of countries
too are all measures of size In this case Id say the relevant
statistic would be the number of combatants total troops compared to
total casualties from among the total civilian population in the
affected geographical area
Which other comparable wars are we talking about
Vietnam and Korea might make good comparisons
Which liberal news media are we talking about
Western news in general but in particular the American mass media
CBS NBC ABC etc The general tone of the news during the whole
war was one of those poor poor Iraqis along with look how precisely
this cruise missile blew this building to bits
This was due mostly
to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques
which were technically possible only recently
I suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too
I agree
How about all the innocent people who died in blanketbombing in WW2
I dont hear you bemoaning them
Perhaps because the topic hasnt cropped up If you want my opinion I think
that the blanket bombing of German cities at the end of World War Two was the
most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in
centuries Bomber Harris was no hero of mine
Perhaps so And maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too But thats easy
to say from our enlightened viewpoint here in the 90s right Back
then it was allout war and Germany and Japan had to be squashed
After all a million or more British had already died hundreds of
thousands of French a couple hundread thousand or so Americans and
millions of Russians not to mention a few million Jews Poles and
other people of slavic descent in German concentration camps All
things considered the firebombings and the atomic bomb were
essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick
end to avoid even greater allied losses
I for one dont regret it
War is never an exact science but
with smart bombs its becoming more exact with a smaller percentage
of civilian casualties Sometimes mistakes are made targets are
misidentified innocents die Thats war the way it really is
Entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without
regard for the lives of other people that is the way war really is
Sure And its the people who suffer because of them All the more
reason to depose these entrenched political rulers operating in their
own selfish interests Or do you mean that this applies to the allies
as well
Why all the fuss about Kuwait and not East Timor Bosnia or even Tibet If
Iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before
we started bombing
I make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the
West before the war It is evident that the West especially America
misjudged Hussein drastically But once Hussein invaded Kuwait and
threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the worlds
oil supply he had to be stopped Sure the war could have been
prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the West
before Hussein invaded Kuwait but it is still Hussein who is
responsible for his decision to invade And once he did so a
strong response from the West was required
Mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely offbase here
You come off sounding like a complete peacenik idiot although I
feel sure that was not your intent
Whats your intent To sound like a Loving Christian Well you arent
doing a very good job of it
Well its not very loving to allow a Hussein or a Hitler to gobble up
nearby countries and keep them Or to allow them to continue with mass
slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion So Id have to
say yes stopping Hussein was the most loving thing to do for the
most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest
So the Iraqi war was wrong eh Im sure that appeasement would have
worked better than war just like it did in WW2 eh
Who even mentioned appeasement And what makes you think the situation is
even remotely analogous to World War Two
I mentioned it
If we hadnt intervened allowing Hussein to keep Kuwait then it would
have been appeasement It is precisely the lessons the world learned
in WW2 that motivated the Western alliance to war Letting Hitler take
Austria and Czechoslavkia did not stop WW2 from happening and letting
Hussein keep Kuwait would not have stopped an eventual Gulf War to
protect Saudi Arabia
I guess we
shouldnt have fought WW2 either just think of all those innocent
German civilians killed in Dresden and Hamburg
Yes do Germans are human too you know
Sure What was truly unfortunate was that they followed Hitler in
his grandiose quest for a Thousand Year Reich The consequences
stemmed from that
Tyrants like Hussein have to be stopped His kind dont understand
diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun My only regret is
that Bush wimped out and didnt have the military roll into Baghdad so
now Hussein is still in power and the Iraqi peoples sacrifice not to
mention the 357 Americans who died was for naught
I look forward to hearing your incisive comments about East Timor and Tibet
What should I say about them Anything in particular
And as for poor poor Rodney King Did you ever stop and think why
the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty
Yes Amongst the things I thought were Hmm theres an awful lot of white
people in that jury
So It was the policemen on trial not Rodney King And under American
law they deserved a jury of their peers If there had been black
officers involved Im sure their would have been black jurors too
This point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow
Those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those
policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape
But the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and I
have not seen
When I see a bunch of policemen beating someone whos lying defenceless on
the ground its rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have
been
So Its hard to imagine So when has Argument from Incredulity
gained acceptance from the revered author of Constructing a Logical
Argument Can we expect another revision soon Just kidding
If there is some wonderful evidence why is it seemingly being kept secret
Why not tell everyone what it is Then everyone could say Oh yes youre
right King deserved a good beating and we could all live happily ever
after
I have to admit that I wonder this too But neither the prosecution
nor the defense is talking So one cannot conclude either way due to
the silence of the principals
Law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused
whether they be criminals or cops One is not found guilty if there is
a reasonable doubt of ones guilt and only the jury is in a position
to assess the evidence and render a verdict
Fine but Im still finding it hard to imagine what the reasonable doubt
was in this case I mean the cops certainly seem to be beating someone
whos lying defenceless on the ground Whats your explanation Mass
hallucination Orbital mindcontrol lasers Faked video footage Do tell
OK It certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved
And frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled me too But then
I learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict
on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably
would have won they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated
assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm A charge which
news commentators said was akin to attempted murder under California
law Based on what the prosecution was asking for its evident that
the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty Note
not not guilty of doing wrong but not guilty of aggravated assault
with the intent of inflicting serious bodily harm The seeds of the
prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a
verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could
If the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then
I feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one
mathew
[ Thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing
in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way
as unfortunately it cannot be helped
Jim Brown Bible for Loving Christians ]
Thanks mathew I like the quote Pretty funny actually Im a
Monty Python fan you know Kind of seems in that vein
Of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem
contradictory But then you know that already
Regards
Jim B
Loving Christian
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 18
In article <93108.020701TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>In article <93106.155002JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>>YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!! BE
>>>PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!
>>
>>readers of the group. How convenient that he doesn't have a real name...
>>Let's start up the letters to the sysadmin, shall we?
>
>His real name is Jeremy Scott Noonan.
>vmoper@psuvm.psu.edu should have at least some authority,
>or at least know who to email.
>
POSTMAST@PSUVM.BITNET respectively P_RFOWLES or P_WVERITY (the sys admins)
at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 18
In article 93108020701TAN102psuvmpsuedu
Andrew Newell writes
In article 93106155002JSN104psuvmpsuedu writes
YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION
readers of the group How convenient that he doesnt have a real name
Lets start up the letters to the sysadmin shall we
His real name is Jeremy Scott Noonan
vmoperpsuvmpsuedu should have at least some authority
or at least know who to email
POSTMASTPSUVMBITNET respectively P_RFOWLES or P_WVERITY the sys admins
at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 30
In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
>not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
>think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
>
>Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
>larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
>they will simply be able to afford more stuff.
If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste*
on a lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military,
scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have
the money, why not?" approach.
It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
use grad students?
Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
after prepro From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 30
In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon writes
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff
If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste
on a lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military
scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have
the money why not approach
Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV You make it gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems we break it uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way Guaranteed emorykd4ncke4zvgary
Lawrenceville GA 30244
preprocess doc From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 38
[reply to frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)]
>>I'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
>>when put next to the word morality. I assume its an idiom and cannot
>>be defined by its separate terms.
>>Give it a try.
>Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
From A Dictionary of Philosophy, by Anthony Flew:
"Objectivism: The belief that there are certain moral truths that would
remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired. For
instance, 'No one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another
simply to take pleasure in his suffering' might be thought of as a
plausible example. Even in a world of sadists who all rejected it, the
contention remains true, just as '5 + 7 = 12' remains correct even if
there is no one left to count. The problem for the objectivist is to
determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be
established. If we accept that such judgements are not reports of what
is but only relate to what ought to be (see naturalistic fallacy) then
they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world. Nor
can they be analytic, since this would involve lack of action-guiding
content; 'One ought always to do the right thing' is plainly true in
virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to
action (see analytic and synthetic). At this point the objectivist may
talk of 'self-evident truths', but can he deny the subjectivist's claim
that self-evidence is in the mind of the beholder? If not, what is left
of the claim that some moral judgements are true? THe subjectivist may
well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements
with which he would wish to associate himself. To hold a moral opinion
is, he suggests, not to know something to be true but to have
preferences regarding human activity."
David Nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). Midelfort Clinic, Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell
after prepro From nyedacnsvaxuwecedu David Nye
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 38
[reply to frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer]
Im one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
when put next to the word morality I assume its an idiom and cannot
be defined by its separate terms
Give it a try
Objective morality is morality built from objective values
From A Dictionary of Philosophy by Anthony Flew
Objectivism The belief that there are certain moral truths that would
remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired For
instance No one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another
simply to take pleasure in his suffering might be thought of as a
plausible example Even in a world of sadists who all rejected it the
contention remains true just as 5 7 12 remains correct even if
there is no one left to count The problem for the objectivist is to
determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be
established If we accept that such judgements are not reports of what
is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then
they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world Nor
can they be analytic since this would involve lack of actionguiding
content One ought always to do the right thing is plainly true in
virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to
action see analytic and synthetic At this point the objectivist may
talk of selfevident truths but can he deny the subjectivists claim
that selfevidence is in the mind of the beholder If not what is left
of the claim that some moral judgements are true THe subjectivist may
well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements
with which he would wish to associate himself To hold a moral opinion
is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have
preferences regarding human activity
David Nye nyedacnsvaxuwecedu Midelfort Clinic Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities Bertrand Russell
preprocess doc From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 30
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
>
>........
>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
>
>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
> hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>side of the booster rockets.
Things could be worse. A lot worse! In the mid-eighties the
teen/adult sci-fi comic 2000AD (Fleetway) produced a short story
featuring the award winning character "Judge Dredd". The story
focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered
multi-coloured lasers/search lights pointed at the moon to paint
images on the moon. Needless to say, this use hacked off a load of lovers,
romantics and werewolfs/crazies. The ad guys got chopped, the service
discontinued. A cautionary tale indeed!
Marvin Batty.
--
****************************************************************************
Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"
after prepro From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 30
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets
Things could be worse A lot worse In the mideighties the
teenadult scifi comic 2000AD Fleetway produced a short story
featuring the award winning character Judge Dredd The story
focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered
multicoloured laserssearch lights pointed at the moon to paint
images on the moon Needless to say this use hacked off a load of lovers
romantics and werewolfscrazies The ad guys got chopped the service
discontinued A cautionary tale indeed
Marvin Batty
Marvin Batty djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 50
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>>I think that about 70% (or so) people approve of the
>>death penalty, even realizing all of its shortcomings. Doesn't this make
>>it reasonable? Or are *you* the sole judge of reasonability?
>Aside from revenge, what merits do you find in capital punishment?
Are we talking about me, or the majority of the people that support it?
Anyway, I think that "revenge" or "fairness" is why most people are in
favor of the punishment. If a murderer is going to be punished, people
that think that he should "get what he deserves." Most people wouldn't
think it would be fair for the murderer to live, while his victim died.
>Revenge? Petty and pathetic.
Perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic, but your views are in the
minority.
>We have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently
>did a segment on capital punishment. Each and every advocate of
>the use of this portion of our system of "jurisprudence" cited the
>main reason for supporting it: "That bastard deserved it". True
>human compassion, forgiveness, and sympathy.
Where are we required to have compassion, forgiveness, and sympathy? If
someone wrongs me, I will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage
is removed, or a similar situation is forced upon him. If someone kills
another, then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn.
Is not our entire moral system based on such a concept?
Or, are you stating that human life is sacred, somehow, and that it should
never be violated? This would sound like some sort of religious view.
>>I mean, how reasonable is imprisonment, really, when you think about it?
>>Sure, the person could be released if found innocent, but you still
>>can't undo the imiprisonment that was served. Perhaps we shouldn't
>>imprision people if we could watch them closely instead. The cost would
>>probably be similar, especially if we just implanted some sort of
>>electronic device.
>Would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair?
Once a criminal has committed a murder, his desires are irrelevant.
And, you still have not answered my question. If you are concerned about
the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent,
then why isn't this same concern shared with imprisonment. Shouldn't we,
by your logic, administer as minimum as punishment as possible, to avoid
violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re I think that about 70 or so people approve of the
death penalty even realizing all of its shortcomings Doesnt this make
it reasonable Or are you the sole judge of reasonability
Aside from revenge what merits do you find in capital punishment
Are we talking about me or the majority of the people that support it
Anyway I think that revenge or fairness is why most people are in
favor of the punishment If a murderer is going to be punished people
that think that he should get what he deserves Most people wouldnt
think it would be fair for the murderer to live while his victim died
Revenge Petty and pathetic
Perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic but your views are in the
minority
We have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently
did a segment on capital punishment Each and every advocate of
the use of this portion of our system of jurisprudence cited the
main reason for supporting it That bastard deserved it True
human compassion forgiveness and sympathy
Where are we required to have compassion forgiveness and sympathy If
someone wrongs me I will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage
is removed or a similar situation is forced upon him If someone kills
another then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn
Is not our entire moral system based on such a concept
Or are you stating that human life is sacred somehow and that it should
never be violated This would sound like some sort of religious view
I mean how reasonable is imprisonment really when you think about it
Sure the person could be released if found innocent but you still
cant undo the imiprisonment that was served Perhaps we shouldnt
imprision people if we could watch them closely instead The cost would
probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of
electronic device
Would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair
Once a criminal has committed a murder his desires are irrelevant
And you still have not answered my question If you are concerned about
the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent
then why isnt this same concern shared with imprisonment Shouldnt we
by your logic administer as minimum as punishment as possible to avoid
violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person
keith
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Space Station Redesign (30826) Option C
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.214653.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 22
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1993Apr25.151108.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
> I like option C of the new space station design..
> It needs some work, but it is simple and elegant..
>
> Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex...
>
> Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
> it..
>
> Might be an idea for a Moon/Mars base to..
>
> Where is Captain Eugenia(sp) when you need it (reference to russian heavy
> lifter, I think).
> ==
> Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
>
>
>
>
This is a report, I got the subject messed up..
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Space Station Redesign 30826 Option C
ArticleID aurora1993Apr252146531
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 22
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1993Apr251511081auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
I like option C of the new space station design
It needs some work but it is simple and elegant
Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex
Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it
Might be an idea for a MoonMars base to
Where is Captain Eugeniasp when you need it reference to russian heavy
lifter I think
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
This is a report I got the subject messed up
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Societal basis for morality
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 18
In article <C5prv8.5nI@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
Cobb) wrote:
> we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality?
> Pardon the extremism, but couldn't I murder your "brother" and say that I was
> exercising my rights as I saw them, was doing what felt good, didn't want
> anyone forcing their morality on me, or I don't follow your "morality" ?
Good statement! Should we apply empirical measurements to define exact
social morals? Should morals be based on social rules? On ancient
religious doctrines? It seems there will *NEVER* be a common and single
denominator for defining morals, and as such defining absolute
and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have
this incredible talent of creative thinking.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Societal basis for morality
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 18
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb wrote
we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality
Pardon the extremism but couldnt I murder your brother and say that I was
exercising my rights as I saw them was doing what felt good didnt want
anyone forcing their morality on me or I dont follow your morality
Good statement Should we apply empirical measurements to define exact
social morals Should morals be based on social rules On ancient
religious doctrines It seems there will NEVER be a common and single
denominator for defining morals and as such defining absolute
and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have
this incredible talent of creative thinking
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: jen187@its.CSIRO.AU (Graham Jenkins +61 6 276 6812)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Organization: CSIRO ITS
Lines: 41
In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
|>
|> That's your mistake. It would be better for the children if the mother
|> raised the child.
|>
|> One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
|> because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men.
|> Compare that with how homos are raised. Do a study and you will get my
|> point.
|>
|> But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
|> stayed home and raised the child. That is something false made up by
|> feminists that seek a status above men. You do not recognize the fact
|> that men and women have natural differences. Not just physically, but
|> mentally also.
|>
Bobby, there's a question here that I just HAVE to ask. If all
of your posts aren't some sort of extended, elaborate hoax, why
are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world
that you're feeble minded? You have a talent for saying the most
absurd things. Here's a little sign for you, print it, cut it out
and put it on top of your computer/terminal.
ENGAGE BRAIN PRIOR TO OPERATING KEYBOARD
(Having said all that, I must admit we all get a laugh from
your stuff.)
--
| Graham Jenkins | graham.jenkins@its.csiro.au |
| CSIRO | (Commonwealth Scientific & Industrial |
| Canberra, AUSTRALIA | Research Organisation) |
after prepro From jen187itsCSIROAU Graham Jenkins 61 6 276 6812
Subject Re islamic authority over women
Organization CSIRO ITS
Lines 41
In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
Thats your mistake It would be better for the children if the mother
raised the child
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
because of the love of their mom It makes for more virile men
Compare that with how homos are raised Do a study and you will get my
point
But in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men
stayed home and raised the child That is something false made up by
feminists that seek a status above men You do not recognize the fact
that men and women have natural differences Not just physically but
mentally also
Bobby theres a question here that I just HAVE to ask If all
of your posts arent some sort of extended elaborate hoax why
are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world
that youre feeble minded You have a talent for saying the most
absurd things Heres a little sign for you print it cut it out
and put it on top of your computerterminal
ENGAGE BRAIN PRIOR TO OPERATING KEYBOARD
Having said all that I must admit we all get a laugh from
your stuff
Graham Jenkins grahamjenkinsitscsiroau
CSIRO Commonwealth Scientific Industrial
Canberra AUSTRALIA Research Organisation
preprocess doc From: games@max.u.washington.edu
Subject: SSTO Senatorial (aide) breifing recollections.
Article-I.D.: max.1993Apr6.125512.1
Distribution: world
Lines: 78
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.u.washington.edu
The following are my thoughts on a meeting that I, Hugh Kelso, and Bob Lilly
had with an aide of Sen. Patty Murrays. We were there to discuss SSTO, and
commercial space. This is how it went...
After receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of SSTO,
I called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local Senator (D) Patty
Murray, Washington State. I started asking for an hour, and when I heard
the gasp on the end of the phone, I quickly backed off to 1/2 an hour.
Later in that conversation, I learned that a standard appointment is 15 minutes.
We got the standard bozo treatment. That is, we were called back by an aide,
who scheduled a meeting with us, in order to determine that we were not
bozos, and to familiarize himself with the material, and to screen it, to
make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material.
Well, I got allocated 1/2 hour with Sen. Murrays aide, and we ended up talking
to him for 45 minutes, with us ending the meeting, and him still listening.
We covered a lot of ground, and only a little tiny bit was DCX specific.
Most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer. There was another
woman there who took copius quantities of notes on EVERY topic that
we brought up.
But, with Murray being new, we wanted to entrench ourselves as non-corporate
aligned (I.E. not speaking for boeing) local citizens interentested in space.
So, we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to
LEO. Solar power satellites are a big focus here, so we hit them as becoming
feasible with lower cost access, and we hit the environmental stand on that.
We hit the tourism angle, and I left a copy of the patric Collins Tourism
paper, with side notes being that everyone who goes into space, and sees the
atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist, esp. after SEEING the smog
over L.A. We hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification (which is
more pronounced in space, and said that that had POTENTIAL to lead to
understanding of, and MAYBE a cure for osteoporosis. We hit the education
whereby kids get enthused by space, but as they get older and find out that
they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there, they go on to other
fields, with low cost to orbit, the chances they might get there someday
would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed.
We hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business
angle. We hit the lower cost of satellite launches, gps navigation, personal
communicators, tellecommunications, new services, etc... Jobs provided
in those sectors.
Jobs provided building the thing, balance of trade improvement, etc..
We mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs.
We left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order
to make this even easier to do. And he asked questions on this point.
We ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are
proceeding in this area, and that we want to make sure that the
results from these efforts are not lost (much like condor, or majellan),
and most importantly, we asked that she help fund further efforts along
the lines of lowering the cost to LEO.
In the middle we also gave a little speal about the Lunar Resource Data
Purchase act, and the guy filed it separately, he was VERY interested in it.
He asked some questions about it, and seemed like he wanted to jump on it,
and contact some of the people involved with it, so something may actually
happen immediatly there.
The last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we
knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town, and that they
could feel free to call us any time with questions, and if we didn't know
the answers, that we would see to it that they questions got to people who
really did know the answers.
Then finally, we asked for an appointment with the senator herself. He
said that we would get on the list, and he also said that knowing her, this
would be something that she would be very interested in, although they
do have a time problem getting her scheduled, since she is only in the
state 1 week out of 6 these days.
All in all we felt like we did a pretty good job.
John.
after prepro From gamesmaxuwashingtonedu
Subject SSTO Senatorial aide breifing recollections
ArticleID max1993Apr61255121
Distribution world
Lines 78
NNTPPostingHost maxuwashingtonedu
The following are my thoughts on a meeting that I Hugh Kelso and Bob Lilly
had with an aide of Sen Patty Murrays We were there to discuss SSTO and
commercial space This is how it went
After receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of SSTO
I called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local Senator D Patty
Murray Washington State I started asking for an hour and when I heard
the gasp on the end of the phone I quickly backed off to 12 an hour
Later in that conversation I learned that a standard appointment is 15 minutes
We got the standard bozo treatment That is we were called back by an aide
who scheduled a meeting with us in order to determine that we were not
bozos and to familiarize himself with the material and to screen it to
make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material
Well I got allocated 12 hour with Sen Murrays aide and we ended up talking
to him for 45 minutes with us ending the meeting and him still listening
We covered a lot of ground and only a little tiny bit was DCX specific
Most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer There was another
woman there who took copius quantities of notes on EVERY topic that
we brought up
But with Murray being new we wanted to entrench ourselves as noncorporate
aligned IE not speaking for boeing local citizens interentested in space
So we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to
LEO Solar power satellites are a big focus here so we hit them as becoming
feasible with lower cost access and we hit the environmental stand on that
We hit the tourism angle and I left a copy of the patric Collins Tourism
paper with side notes being that everyone who goes into space and sees the
atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist esp after SEEING the smog
over LA We hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification which is
more pronounced in space and said that that had POTENTIAL to lead to
understanding of and MAYBE a cure for osteoporosis We hit the education
whereby kids get enthused by space but as they get older and find out that
they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there they go on to other
fields with low cost to orbit the chances they might get there someday
would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed
We hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business
angle We hit the lower cost of satellite launches gps navigation personal
communicators tellecommunications new services etc Jobs provided
in those sectors
Jobs provided building the thing balance of trade improvement etc
We mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs
We left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order
to make this even easier to do And he asked questions on this point
We ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are
proceeding in this area and that we want to make sure that the
results from these efforts are not lost much like condor or majellan
and most importantly we asked that she help fund further efforts along
the lines of lowering the cost to LEO
In the middle we also gave a little speal about the Lunar Resource Data
Purchase act and the guy filed it separately he was VERY interested in it
He asked some questions about it and seemed like he wanted to jump on it
and contact some of the people involved with it so something may actually
happen immediatly there
The last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we
knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town and that they
could feel free to call us any time with questions and if we didnt know
the answers that we would see to it that they questions got to people who
really did know the answers
Then finally we asked for an appointment with the senator herself He
said that we would get on the list and he also said that knowing her this
would be something that she would be very interested in although they
do have a time problem getting her scheduled since she is only in the
state 1 week out of 6 these days
All in all we felt like we did a pretty good job
John
preprocess doc From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
In-Reply-To: todd@phad.la.locus.com's message of Wed, 21 Apr 93 16:28:00 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
<1993Apr21.162800.168967@locus.com>
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr21.162800.168967@locus.com> todd@phad.la.locus.com (Todd Johnson) writes:
As for advertising -- sure, why not? A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon. Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.
Hmmm. It actually isn't all that much, is it? Like about 2 million
km^2 (if you think that sounds like a lot, it's only a few tens of m^2
per burger that said organization sold last year). You'd be best off
with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an
unmanned craft in lunar orbit (or, rather, a large set of such craft).
If you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new
moon (since the moon itself is quite dark), and _bright_ at full moon.
You might have to abandon the colour, though.
Buy a cheap launch system, design reusable moon -> lunar orbit
unmanned spraying craft, build 50 said craft, establish a lunar base
to extract TiO2 (say: for colour you'd be better off with a sulphur
compound, I suppose) and some sort of propellant, and Bob's your
uncle. I'll do it for, say, 20 billion dollars (plus changes of
identity for me and all my loved ones). Delivery date 2010.
Can we get the fast-food chain bidding against the fizzy-drink
vendors? Who else might be interested?
Would they buy it, given that it's a _lot_ more expensive, and not
much more impressive, than putting a large set of several-km
inflatable billboards in LEO (or in GEO, visible 24 hours from your
key growth market). I'll do _that_ for only $5bn (and the changes of
identity).
Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
after prepro From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
InReplyTo toddphadlalocuscoms message of Wed 21 Apr 93 162800 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
1993Apr21162800168967locuscom
Lines 33
In article 1993Apr21162800168967locuscom toddphadlalocuscom Todd Johnson writes
As for advertising sure why not A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar wed need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon Fortunately we sobered up in the morning
Hmmm It actually isnt all that much is it Like about 2 million
km^2 if you think that sounds like a lot its only a few tens of m^2
per burger that said organization sold last year Youd be best off
with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an
unmanned craft in lunar orbit or rather a large set of such craft
If you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new
moon since the moon itself is quite dark and _bright_ at full moon
You might have to abandon the colour though
Buy a cheap launch system design reusable moon lunar orbit
unmanned spraying craft build 50 said craft establish a lunar base
to extract TiO2 say for colour youd be better off with a sulphur
compound I suppose and some sort of propellant and Bobs your
uncle Ill do it for say 20 billion dollars plus changes of
identity for me and all my loved ones Delivery date 2010
Can we get the fastfood chain bidding against the fizzydrink
vendors Who else might be interested
Would they buy it given that its a _lot_ more expensive and not
much more impressive than putting a large set of severalkm
inflatable billboards in LEO or in GEO visible 24 hours from your
key growth market Ill do _that_ for only 5bn and the changes of
identity
Nick Haines nickhcmuedu
preprocess doc From: frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Lines: 28
NNTP-Posting-Host: d012s658.ap.mchp.sni.de
In article <1993Apr15.125245.12872@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka) writes:
|In <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp writes:
|> In article <30114@ursa.bear.com> halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
|
|> #I'm one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
|> #when put next to the word morality. I assume its an idiom and cannot
|> #be defined by its separate terms.
|> #
|> #Give it a try.
|>
|> Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
|
| "And these objective values are ... ?"
|Please be specific, and more importantly, motivate.
I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable. I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
almost all would want to complain. Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
a rainy day. I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist.
--
Frank O'Dwyer 'I'm not hatching That'
odwyer@sse.ie from "Hens", by Evelyn Conlon
after prepro From frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization SiemensNixdorf AG
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost d012s658apmchpsnide
In article 1993Apr1512524512872abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka writes
In 1qie61fkthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp writes
In article 30114ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
Im one of those people who does not know what the word objective means
when put next to the word morality I assume its an idiom and cannot
be defined by its separate terms
Give it a try
Objective morality is morality built from objective values
And these objective values are
Please be specific and more importantly motivate
Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist
Frank ODwyer Im not hatching That
odwyersseie from Hens by Evelyn Conlon
preprocess doc From: wiml@stein2.u.washington.edu (William Lewis)
Subject: Re: Abyss--breathing fluids
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 33
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein2.u.washington.edu
loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss) writes:
>Besides the mechanical problems of moving so dense a medium in oan out
>of the lungs (diaphragm fatigue, etc.), is there likely to be a problem
>with the mixture? I mean, since the lungs never expel all the air in
>them, the inhaled air has to mix pretty quickly with the residual air in
>the lungs to provide a useful partial pressure of oxygen, right? Would
>this mixing be substantially faster/slower at the pressures we're
>talking about?
There was an interesting article in Scientific American some time ago
about breathing liquid. (It was a few months before _The Abyss_ came out.)
As far as I can remember, they mentioned three things that were difficult
to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid:
- low viscosity --- if it's too difficult to force the fluid in & out
of the lungs, you can't extract enough oxygen to power your own
breathing effort (let alone anything else)
- diffusion rate --- obviously, not all the air in your lungs is
expelled when you breathe out; and the part that isn't expelled
is the part that's nearest the walls of the alveoli. (alveolus?)
So the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done
by diffusion of the gas through the fluid. Apparently oxygen
tends to diffuse more readily than CO2, so even if you can get enough
oxygen in, you might not be able to get enough CO2 out.
- oxygen/CO2 capacity --- you have to be able to dissolve enough
gas per unit volume.
Oh, and of course, your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs
or interfere with their healing or anything like that...
--
Wim Lewis, wiml@u.washington.edu
after prepro From wimlstein2uwashingtonedu William Lewis
Subject Re Abyssbreathing fluids
Organization University of Washington
Lines 33
NNTPPostingHost stein2uwashingtonedu
lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss writes
Besides the mechanical problems of moving so dense a medium in oan out
of the lungs diaphragm fatigue etc is there likely to be a problem
with the mixture I mean since the lungs never expel all the air in
them the inhaled air has to mix pretty quickly with the residual air in
the lungs to provide a useful partial pressure of oxygen right Would
this mixing be substantially fasterslower at the pressures were
talking about
There was an interesting article in Scientific American some time ago
about breathing liquid It was a few months before _The Abyss_ came out
As far as I can remember they mentioned three things that were difficult
to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid
low viscosity if its too difficult to force the fluid in out
of the lungs you cant extract enough oxygen to power your own
breathing effort let alone anything else
diffusion rate obviously not all the air in your lungs is
expelled when you breathe out and the part that isnt expelled
is the part thats nearest the walls of the alveoli alveolus
So the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done
by diffusion of the gas through the fluid Apparently oxygen
tends to diffuse more readily than CO2 so even if you can get enough
oxygen in you might not be able to get enough CO2 out
oxygenCO2 capacity you have to be able to dissolve enough
gas per unit volume
Oh and of course your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs
or interfere with their healing or anything like that
Wim Lewis wimluwashingtonedu
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Moraltiy? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 63
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql8ekINN635@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >>>>What if I act morally for no particular reason? Then am I moral? What
|> >>>>if morality is instinctive, as in most animals?
|> >>>
|> >>>Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to
|> >>>assume your conclusion.
|> >>
|> >>Which conclusion?
|> >
|> >You conclusion - correct me if I err - that the behaviour which is
|> >instinctive in animals is a "natural" moral system.
|>
|> See, we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here. Earlier, you said
|> that it must be a conscious act. By your definition, no instinctive
|> behavior pattern could be an act of morality. You are trying to apply
|> human terms to non-humans.
Pardon me? *I* am trying to apply human terms to non-humans?
I think there must be some confusion here. I'm the guy who is
saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does *not*
have any moral sugnificance. How does refusing to apply human
terms to animals get turned into applying human terms?
|> I think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative,
|> this does not prevent his behavior from being moral.
I'm sure you do think this, if you say so. How about trying to
convince me?
|>
|> >>You don't think that morality is a behavior pattern? What is human
|> >>morality? A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
|> >>pattern. That is, we enforce a certain behavior as moral.
|> >
|> >You keep getting this backwards. *You* are trying to show that
|> >the behaviour pattern is a morality. Whether morality is a behavior
|> >pattern is irrelevant, since there can be behavior pattern, for
|> >example the motions of the planets, that most (all?) people would
|> >not call a morality.
|>
|> I try to show it, but by your definition, it can't be shown.
I've offered, four times, I think, to accept your definition if
you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion
of the planets.
|>
|> And, morality can be thought of a large class of princples. It could be
|> defined in terms of many things--the laws of physics if you wish. However,
|> it seems silly to talk of a "moral" planet because it obeys the laws of
|> phyics. It is less silly to talk about animals, as they have at least
|> some free will.
Ah, the law of "silly" and "less silly". what Mr Livesey finds
intuitive is "silly" but what Mr Schneider finds intuitive is "less
silly".
Now that's a devastating argument, isn't it.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Moraltiy was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
What if I act morally for no particular reason Then am I moral What
if morality is instinctive as in most animals
Saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to
assume your conclusion
Which conclusion
You conclusion correct me if I err that the behaviour which is
instinctive in animals is a natural moral system
See we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here Earlier you said
that it must be a conscious act By your definition no instinctive
behavior pattern could be an act of morality You are trying to apply
human terms to nonhumans
Pardon me I am trying to apply human terms to nonhumans
I think there must be some confusion here Im the guy who is
saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does not
have any moral sugnificance How does refusing to apply human
terms to animals get turned into applying human terms
I think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative
this does not prevent his behavior from being moral
Im sure you do think this if you say so How about trying to
convince me
You dont think that morality is a behavior pattern What is human
morality A moral action is one that is consistent with a given
pattern That is we enforce a certain behavior as moral
You keep getting this backwards You are trying to show that
the behaviour pattern is a morality Whether morality is a behavior
pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for
example the motions of the planets that most all people would
not call a morality
I try to show it but by your definition it cant be shown
Ive offered four times I think to accept your definition if
you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion
of the planets
And morality can be thought of a large class of princples It could be
defined in terms of many thingsthe laws of physics if you wish However
it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of
phyics It is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least
some free will
Ah the law of silly and less silly what Mr Livesey finds
intuitive is silly but what Mr Schneider finds intuitive is less
silly
Now thats a devastating argument isnt it
jon
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1qju0bINN10l@rave.larc.nasa.gov>, C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON) writes:
> There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago (I do not remember its
> name) about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the
> Sun so it could never be visible from Earth.
This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K. It was produced by the great
team of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson (whose science was usually a bit
better than this). It may have been their first production using live
actors-- they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows,
such as *Supercar*, *Stingray*, and *Thunderbirds*. Later, they went
on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.
The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
look at.
Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | There grow roses and other posies
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | Fertilized by Clementine.
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS |
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Doppelganger was Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 22
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NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1qju0bINN10lravelarcnasagov COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON writes
There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago I do not remember its
name about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth
This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
States and as Doppelganger in the UK It was produced by the great
team of Gerry and Sylvia Anderson whose science was usually a bit
better than this It may have been their first production using live
actors they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows
such as Supercar Stingray and Thunderbirds Later they went
on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999
The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
look at
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET There grow roses and other posies
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV Fertilized by Clementine
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS
preprocess doc sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
<1p6rgcINNhfb@gap.caltech.edu> <1p88fi$4vv@fido.asd.sgi.com>
<1p9bseINNi6o@gap.caltech.edu> <1pamva$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pcq4pINNqp1@gap.caltech.edu> <30071@ursa.bear.com>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
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halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
>>I think an objective morality does exist, but that most flavors of morality
>>are only approximations to it. Once again, a natural or objective morality
>>is fairly easily defined, as long as you have a goal in mind--that is, what
>>is the purpose of this morality.
>Maybe I'm not quite getting what you mean by this, but I think objective
>morality is an oxymoron. By definition, it seems, any _goal_ oriented
>issue like this is subjective by nature. I don't get how you're using
>the word objective.
But, the goal need not be a subjective one. For instance, the goal of
natural morality is the propogation of a species, perhaps. It wasn't
really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions
to this were necessary. Intelligent animals have different needs than
the others, and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more
complicated than "the law of the jungle." I don't think that
self-actualization is so subjective as you might think. And, by
objectivity, I am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be
carried out completely.
keith
after prepro sgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re 1p88fi4vvfidoasdsgicom
1p9bseINNi6ogapcaltechedu 1pamvab6jfidoasdsgicom 1pcq4pINNqp1gapcaltechedu 30071ursabearcom
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halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
I think an objective morality does exist but that most flavors of morality
are only approximations to it Once again a natural or objective morality
is fairly easily defined as long as you have a goal in mindthat is what
is the purpose of this morality
Maybe Im not quite getting what you mean by this but I think objective
morality is an oxymoron By definition it seems any _goal_ oriented
issue like this is subjective by nature I dont get how youre using
the word objective
But the goal need not be a subjective one For instance the goal of
natural morality is the propogation of a species perhaps It wasnt
really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions
to this were necessary Intelligent animals have different needs than
the others and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more
complicated than the law of the jungle I dont think that
selfactualization is so subjective as you might think And by
objectivity I am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be
carried out completely
keith
preprocess doc From: guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer )
Subject: Re: Islam & Dress Code for women
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Lines: 53
In article <16BA7103C3.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.091258.11830@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
>>(2) Do women have souls in Islam?
>>
>>People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
>>souls. I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
>>Muslims of any era. I have heard of some Christians of some eras
>>holding this viewpoint, but not Muslims. Are you sure you might not be
>>confusing Christian history with Islamic history?
>>
>
>Yes, it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
>Caliphate.
>
I am not aware of any "Turkish Caliphate" viewpoint on this. Can you
reference?
However, I found a quote due to Imam Ali, whom the Shias follow:
"Men, never obey your women in any way whatsoever. Never let them give their
advice on any matter whatsoever, even those of everyday life. Indeed, allow
them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away one's
wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth.
We see them without religion, when, alone, they are left to their own
devices; they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal
desires are at stake. It is easy to enjoy them, but they cause great
anxiety. The most virtious among them are libertines. But the most
corrupt are whores. Only those of them whom age has deprived of any
charm are untainted by vice. They have three qualities particular to
miscreants; they complain of being oppressed, whereas it is they
who oppress; they make oaths, whereas they are lying; they pretend
to refuse men's solicitations, whereas they desire them most ardently.
Let us beg the help of God to emerge victorious from their evil deeds.
And preserve us in any case from their good ones."
(Quote from Mas'ud al-Qanawi, ref. A. Bouhdiba, Sexuality in Islam,
p. 118).
I wouldn't consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic (TM)
viewpoint though. For all we know, the prophet's cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazret-i Ali may have said this after a frustrating
night with a woman.
Selim Guncer
--
Selim E. Guncer | Jaca negra, luna grande,
CSSER-ASU | y aceitunas en mi alforja.
(602)-965-4096 | Aunque sepa los caminos
guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu | yo nunca llegare a Cordoba.. (FGL)
after prepro From guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer
Subject Re Islam Dress Code for women
Organization Arizona State University Tempe AZ
Lines 53
In article 16BA7103C3I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1993Apr509125811830monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
2 Do women have souls in Islam
People have said here that some Muslims say that women do not have
souls I must admit I have never heard of such a view being held by
Muslims of any era I have heard of some Christians of some eras
holding this viewpoint but not Muslims Are you sure you might not be
confusing Christian history with Islamic history
Yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the Turkish
Caliphate
I am not aware of any Turkish Caliphate viewpoint on this Can you
reference
However I found a quote due to Imam Ali whom the Shias follow
Men never obey your women in any way whatsoever Never let them give their
advice on any matter whatsoever even those of everyday life Indeed allow
them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away ones
wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth
We see them without religion when alone they are left to their own
devices they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal
desires are at stake It is easy to enjoy them but they cause great
anxiety The most virtious among them are libertines But the most
corrupt are whores Only those of them whom age has deprived of any
charm are untainted by vice They have three qualities particular to
miscreants they complain of being oppressed whereas it is they
who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend
to refuse mens solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently
Let us beg the help of God to emerge victorious from their evil deeds
And preserve us in any case from their good ones
Quote from Masud alQanawi ref A Bouhdiba Sexuality in Islam
p 118
I wouldnt consider this quote as being exemplary of the Islamic TM
viewpoint though For all we know the prophets cousin and
the Fourth Khalif Hazreti Ali may have said this after a frustrating
night with a woman
Selim Guncer
Selim E Guncer Jaca negra luna grande
CSSERASU y aceitunas en mi alforja
6029654096 Aunque sepa los caminos
guncerenuxhaeasasuedu yo nunca llegare a Cordoba FGL
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 19
In article <1993Apr17.122329.21438@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH: ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE." (Holy Quran 21:33)
>
>>Hmm. This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre,
>>with the planets orbitting round it. So Copernicus and Gallileo were
>>wrong after all!
>
>You haven't read very carefully -- if you look again, you will see that
>it doesn't say anything about what is circling what.
>
Anyway, they are not moving in circles. Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense. Wishy-
washy statements are not scientific.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 19
In article 1993Apr1712232921438monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE Holy Quran 2133
Hmm This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre
with the planets orbitting round it So Copernicus and Gallileo were
wrong after all
You havent read very carefully if you look again you will see that
it doesnt say anything about what is circling what
Anyway they are not moving in circles Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense Wishy
washy statements are not scientific
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Nostalgia
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 1049
The recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the
incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb
through my archives and pull out some of "The Best of Alt.Atheism"
for your reading pleasure. I'll post a couple of these a day
unless group concensus demands that I stop, or I run out of good
material.
I haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving
attributions. I think the following comes from John A. Johnson,
but someone correct me if I'm wrong. This is probably the longest
of my entire collection.
________________________________________________________
So that the
Prophecy be
Fulfilled
* * *
In considering the Christian religion, and judging it
according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy. The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth. As you will see, Matthew's main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages, often not even
about the promised Messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament. We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts. Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed, we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated. But, for purposes of analysis, we
will take particular claims at face value.
Immanuel:
We begin, of course, at the beginning.
(Mt 1.21-22): "[Mary] will bear a son, and you,
Joseph, will name him 'Jesus' (which means G'd is
salvation), for he will save his people from their
sins." All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
spoken by a prophet:
[Isaiah 7.1-16]: In the days of Ahaz (c. 750 BCE),
king of Judah, Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
war on Jerusalem (capitol of Judah), but could not
quite conquer it. When the house of David (i.e. Ahaz
and his court in Judah) were told of this, ...its
heart and the heart of its people shook... And, the
lord G'd said to Isaiah, "go to meet with Ahaz..."
...And the lord spoke to Ahaz (through prophet Isaiah,
naturally) saying, "Ask a sign of G'd your lord. It
can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven." But,
Ahaz said, "I won't ask; I will not put the lord to a
test." Then (Isaiah) said, "Hear then, O house of
David. Is it not enough for you to weary men, that
you must weary my god too? Therefore, the lord
himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman
is with child and will bear a son, and name him
"Immanuel," which means, "G'd is with us." He will
eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
and choose good. For, before the child knows how to
refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings
you dread will have been deserted...
Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics.
Further, he the Hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as
specifically, "virgin." But, this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah. It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later. It is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother. In
short, it not about Jesus. Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary. It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit Mary. Mary,
virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child. Of course,
the fit is shady and has problems. Jesus, while thought of by
later Christians to be G'd walking among men, was never called by
the name, Immanuel. If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second
class prophecy. Not too convincing.
Egypt:
After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses. This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.
[Mt 2.15] ...and remained there until the death of
Herod. This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
"Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."
What the lord really said was this.
[Hosea 11.1] When Israel was a child, I loved him.
And, out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called
them (my people), the more they went from me; they
kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
incense to idols.
Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle. But, it
was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
return. This is history. Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here. And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd. Again, this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.
Rachel Weeps:
While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt, Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children. Matthew then writes,
[Mt 2.17-18] By this, that which was spoken by the
prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
"A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud
lamentation-- Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they were
no more."
The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 31.15, referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon (of Assyria) in 722
BCE. Rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel, Ephraim,
and Manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no
more." It is metaphorical, of course, since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile.
It is interesting to note that it was Leah, not Rachel, who
was the ancestor of the Judeans (the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were). If anyone should do weeping for her "children,"
it is Leah. The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city,
"on the way to Ephrath, (Bethlehem)."
As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred. One never knows, but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time.
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded. This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
the message of the church's gospel.
Because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of Jesus.
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote. The "children" the prophet
speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the Assyrian Empire. G'd
comforts the weeping Rachel, saying that the children will be
returned-- he will gather them back together. Of course, this
would not suit Matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are
dead for good. Again, the "prophecy" Matthew sets up is not even
that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too
convincing.
The Nazarene:
We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy. After leaving Egypt, Joseph & wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth,
[Mt 2.23] ...that what was spoken of by the prophets
might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophet(s) this time. Second, we have to ask who "He" is.
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene. Worse,
there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a Nazarene. Still
worse, there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all. In the book of Judges, an angel tells Samson's mother that
she will,
[Judges 13.5] "...conceive and bear a son. No razor
shall tough his head, for he will be a Nazirite to his
god from the day of his birth. He will deliver Israel
from the hands of the Philistines."
This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus, or the messiah of G'd.
But, it is the best that can be found. Obviously, Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is
simple making them up now.
Bearing our
Diseases:
Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities.
[Mt 8.17] This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our
diseases."
As expected, the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context,
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme. We have,
[Is 53.4] Surely he, [the suffering servant], has
borne our sickness, and carried our pains.
From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah, we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel, Jehovah's chosen servant and people. He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it. This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, Israel as the
instrument of the nations' salvation by G'd.
The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline. They do not speak of a "servant" going around and
healing people. Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual Jews). Jesus,
as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself. The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but
rather something that had already happened. While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear
the illnesses he healed. So, while someone might want to say
that, figuratively, Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement, he has to admit that Matthew's parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect.
Silent Messiah:
Upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse
the attention of the local rulers.
[Mt 12.15-21] This was to fulfill what was spoken by
the prophet Isaiah.
"Behold my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved,
with whom my soul is pleased. I will put my spirit on
him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles. He
will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear
his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised
reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his
name."
The Isaiah passage quoted reads,
[Is 42.1-4] Behold my servant whom I uphold, my
chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my
spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the
nations. We will not cry or lift up his voice, or
make it heard in the street. He will not break a
bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick. He will
faithfully bring forth justice. He will not fail
(burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has
established justice in the earth. And the coastlands
await his law.
You see, Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage,
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus. Christians could
never think of Jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind
burn dimly. But, the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done. When the gentiles come to embrace
G'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will
be the children of G'd. Also, the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the
Christologic, "the Gentiles will hope in his name." While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah, the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name." If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus, one has only
to read the whole chapter, Isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and
plundered..." So, we see that when Matthew's attempt at
"prophecy" is examined, it crumbles.
Three Days and
Three Nights:
Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself. He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection.
[Mt 12.40] For as Jonah was in the belly of the
whale for three days and three nights, so will the Son
of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
three nights.
Before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days. As far as day names went, each was
24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm. What was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm. Thus, according to our time
scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening, and lasted until
6pm saturday evening. This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays, instead of Sundays.
(It seems like a real miracle that Christians didn't forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!) Thus,
when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of. Thus,
Jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights.
As the good book tells us, Jesus was crucified on the "ninth
hour," which is 3pm, Friday afternoon. He then was put into the
grave sometime after that. Then, Jesus left the grave, "rose,"
before dawn of what we call Sunday (The dawn after the sabbath was
over). What this means is that Jesus was, using our time for
clarity, in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning. We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday, since the bible is not specific here. What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two
nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day. Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction. There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights --even using modern time measurements. We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthew's little
mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his
god's mouth. And no matter who made the prediction, it is more
than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing.
Hearing &
Understanding:
Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if
you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus. He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants. If the people cannot understand
them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not
accept the "plain" message any better. Matthew says,
[Mt 13.14-16] With them [the audience] indeed in
fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says,
"You will indeed hear but never understand; and you
will indeed see, but never perceive. Because this
people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of
hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they
would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and
understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal
them."
The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his
call to the ministry. This is in 740 BCE, when Israel is
flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of Assyria.
Isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from G'd,
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah.
[Is 6.9-13] And G'd said, "Go, and say to this
people, `Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and
see, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this
people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their
eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear
with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and
turn and be healed." Then Isaiah said, "How long,
lord?" And he said, "Until the cities lie waste
without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the
land is utterly desolate, and the G'ds take men far
away, and forsaken places are many in the land. And
though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned
again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
stands when the tree is felled." The holy seed is its
stump.
Here we see that it is really G'd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomon's (and David's) seed/lineage. If you read
the rest of Isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of G'd to use Israel as a servant, a light to the nations. (Look
at Isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3)
We see that Matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion
of Isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs. More than that,
he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't
understand Jesus's stories. And, as we see, Isaiah's verses are
not prophecies, but rather commands from G'd to him, in the
present. Once again, Matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face.
Matthew tries again to make Jesus's parables look like they
have the prophetic approval.
[Mt 13.35] ...he said nothing to them without a
parable. This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
prophet, "I will open my mouth to them in parables. I
will utter that which has been hidden since the
foundation of the world."
Matthew really botches up here. He attempts to quote not from a
prophet, but from the Psalms.
[Ps 78.2-4] I will open my mouth in parable. I will
utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have
heard and known, things that our fathers have told us.
We will not hide them from their children, but tell to
the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
lord...
As was pointed out, the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet. You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthew's gospel even inserted Isaiah's name as this prophet.
Apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up.
Perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once
again, Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures. As Jesus
has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them. The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden.
Further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told
us." Jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the
world." Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion.
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms. No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them! And still once again,
Matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face. But,
Christians rarely look at this. Matthew's prophecies aren't the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad.
Excuses of
Little Faith:
In Mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons, except in one case. Not knowing what
epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons. It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to "dispossess" the epileptic. But, Jesus, perhaps no more
enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying
they didn't have enough faith. This seems strange. Why was this
demon special? It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not. Apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains. Of course, you will find no one, these days that can
move real mountains. No one parts seas. The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place. Major miracles are making some old
woman's arthritis feel better on Sunday morning T.V.
And the gods, including Jesus, are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts. They are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in
heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone. Yet, life goes on.
Tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time
or a distant place. Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days, Jehovah too. But, now they are silent. All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see
God anymore.
We're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're
sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our
own demands on G'd's appearance; if we had the right
faith, if we were willing to meet G'd on his terms...
Yet, even the most pious of men have not seen G'd. You, dear
reader, have not seen G'd. Not literally, you know that to be
true. (I know that's presumptuous and bold. But, searching your
heart, you know what I mean.) All that we've seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing G'd. They say
our little faith does not merit us to see G'd. Sometimes, they
say, "See the love in these people you worship with... see the
lives of people change... that is seeing G'd." Thus people get
lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning G'd into the everyday
sights. But, that is not seeing G'd as I am speaking of... it is
not seeing G'd the way people used to see.
What we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of
human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the
forgiveness practised by Christian & Atheist alike, beauty created
by the mind of man. These are the things that are done; these are
what we see. But, it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith.
Jesus Rides on
an Ass:
Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king, Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem.
[Mt 21.5] This took place to fulfil what was spoken
by the prophet, saying,
Tell the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is
coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a
ass-colt."
Of course, the passage quoted from Zechariah 9.9 reads a little
differently.
Lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and
victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass-
colt... he will command peace to the nations.
There isn't all that much difference here, except that Zechariah
only involves one animal --an ass-colt-- while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently. Thus, he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass. From Matthew's version, we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys. This could inevitably lead to a theological,
proctological dilemma! We find that in the account written
earlier by St. Mark, only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus. This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly, and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has
bungled. Now, excluding many respectable Christians I have met, I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses,
the situation is often reversed nowadays...
Then, entering the Jerusalem temple, the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah. But,
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done,
[Mt 21.16] Haven't you read? `Out of the mouth of
babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.'
It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things AND
since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to
fit Matthew's track record quite well. We might ask Jesus or
Matthew, "Haven't you read?" for the source reads,
[Psalms 8.1-2] O YaHWeH our lord, how majestic is
your name in the whole world! You, whose glory is
chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you
have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
enemy and the avenger.
The passages hardly need comment. There is no "perfect praise"
spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to G'd,
not his messiah king, and not Jesus. As mentioned, it seems to be
just one more case of Matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture.
YHVH said to
my lord...:
Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiah-king is to be descended. The Jews agree-- it is king
David. But, then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110,
"The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until
I put your enemies under your feet."
Taken at face value, Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent. One assumes he is in opposition to their answer. Of
course, the Christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to
make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiah-king. It's tempting to believe this, if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation.
But, there are problems.
In Jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah. And, it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior. We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king,
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under David's
rule. Of course, the Jews listening had no good answer, and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the
Christians worship. The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm, an error that apparently several Jews of Jesus's time had
also made. One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews, often as a result of different expectations of the
messiah-king. Jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like
his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and
who interpreted Psalms 110, among others, as being messianic.
What is the problem, then? Psalm 110 literally reads,
YHVH's utterance to my lord:
"Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your
footstool."
YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule
in the midst of your foes! Your people will offer
themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
holy mountains.
"You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
forever."
The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord. But, in the Hebrew, the
word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists. Adoni simply means
"lord," a generic term as we would use it. It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd. It is merely an
address of respect.
There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king. That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain. The title of the
psalm translates to either "a psalm of David," or "a psalm about
David." It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet, about David's covenant and endorsement from G'd. If the
psalm had been written by David, it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah. The idea of a perfect king, descended
from David, was not present in David's age. We have extensive
tales of David's doings and sayings-- none of which include any
praises of a messiah.
Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead, in times of the exile when G'd had put his show of
favour for David's kingdom on hold.
The description in the psalm fit David very well. David was
promised by G'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies,
successful judgement among the nations he conquered. He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king,
enabled to bless the people. It all fits.
We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone,
though. Here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable. Still, this
event is common to the other gospels too. So, we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time. It is interesting to note,
though, how Matthew dresses up the event. The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd.
Matthew has the Pharisees, who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity, be the target of Jesus's question. As we
might expect, Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees. Such power is the pen.
Moses & Jesus,
Had it Together
All Along...:
We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudo-prophecy in John's gospel. The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesus's career as told by even Matthew.
But, for the moment, we will just look at one verse. The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by G'd. When constructing the history of Abraham, Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people. While this
was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king David, the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise. But, to do so, they expanded on the
promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom.
[John 8.56] (J.C. speaking) Your father, Abraham,
rejoiced to see My day. He say it and was glad.
It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham, but,
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah, or anything Christian.
I have tried, and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to John's little prophecy. It is par for the
course to see St. John making up Old Testament backings, just like
his forerunner Matthew. Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they
still cling to it.
The Potter's
Field:
We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers, Judas Iscariot. Matthew writes,
[Mt 27.5-10] And throwing down the pieces of silver
in the temple, [Judas] departed... But, the chief
priests, taking the silver, said, "It isn't lawful for
us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood
money." So they... bought a potter's field with it to
bury strangers in... Then was fulfilled what was
spoken by the prophet Jeremiah,
"And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price
of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's
field, as the lord directed me."
This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture. First, Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet. It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of.
[Zech. 11.12-13] ...And they weighed out my wages,
thirty shekels of silver. Then YHVH said to me, "Cast
them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which I
was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of
silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
YHVH.
First of all, the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah, or of G'd. The deal with a shepherd, most likely
a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before G'd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another. The word, "treasury," had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made
Matthew's quote fit better. But, this is a blatant error. The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariah's context, whereas "potter's
field" is totally unrelated. Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation. However, given
Matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty.
Of course, Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text. The thirty pieces of silver match Judas's situation, and if
as most Christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity, Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around. However, the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests. The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury. The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite! Of course, to the average Thursday-Night Bible student,
the "prophecy" as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value. To those, Matthew's work is convincing
enough.
Wine, Vinegar,
& Casting Lots:
Then, Jesus is led away to be crucified.
[Mt 27.34-35] ...they gave him vinegar to drink,
mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not
drink it. And, when they had crucified him, they
divided his garments among them by casting lots: that
it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet,
"They parted my garments among them, and upon my
vesture did they cast lots."
First of all, the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine, of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly. We find
that right before Jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink --not polluted with gall.
[Jn 19.28-30] Jesus... said, "I thirst." A bowl of
vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the
vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When he
had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished;"
But, Matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the
prophets, but one from the Psalms.
[Ps 69.20-28] I looked for pity, but there was none;
and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me
poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and
for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink... Add
to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no
acquittal from thee. Let them be blotted out of the
Book of the Living.
Of course, the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink. This does indeed seem to be a show of pity. The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies. It
is not about the messiah or Jesus. It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the "Jesus" in the
psalm asks G'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says,
[Lk 23.34] Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, the
don't know what they do!"
Further, Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall (a bitter substance) put into Jesus's drink, not his
meat, as the psalm stipulates.
With the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally
ask, "What of the casting of lots?" This brings up the 22nd
Psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself. Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesus's clothes were divided as told is no
great thing. It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days. As we will soon see, it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus. It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesus's clothes. For a man so removed from worldly possessions,
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions.
The 22nd Psalm:
This psalm is attributed to David, as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies. It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope. Taken out of context, parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well. We
will examine the primary passages.
Verse 1-2: My god, my god! why have you forsaken me?!
Why are you so far from helping me, far from the words
of my groaning? Oh, my god, I cry by day, but you
don't answer, and by night, but find no rest.
Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross.
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus, rather
than king David. Of course, the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution. Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the
lamb led mute before its shearers." Indeed, Jesus doesn't do much
groaning, even when on the cross. He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross.
6-8: But, I am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men...
All who see me mock at me. They make faces and wag
their heads; "He committed his cause to YHVH. So let
him deliver him... for he delights in him."
This seems to fit Jesus's execution pretty well, with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm.
12-13: Many bulls encompass me... they open their
mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion.
16-18: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and
feet. I can see all my bones... They divide my
garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment.
19-21: But you, YHVH, be not far away! ...Deliver my
soul from the sword, my life from the power of the
dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion, and my
afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull!
It would seem quite convincing, and I'm sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too. Unfortunately,
this prophecy has a fatal flaw. The words "have pierced" really
do not exist in the psalm. The correct Hebrew translation is,
16: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my
hands and feet...
In Hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form
which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character. The
word in the Hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari),
which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer. It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to "ka'aru." But, to
add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do. While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators.
Apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily. Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross. This naturally fits the
psalm's true subject, king David. As a side note, we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather
the forearms. This doesn't say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms. But then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs.
Matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus. But the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesus's life and death. How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology. It is easy to see, for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists, how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager Matthew. But,
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims. So far, this has not said good
things for St. Matthew.
The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesus's
crucifixion. John's gospel recount, written about 70 years after
the fact, tells us at Jesus's execution,
[Jn 19.34,37] But one of the soldiers pierced his
side with a spear, and out came blood and water...
these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled...
"The will look on him whom they've pierced."
Of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context. Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them.
[Zc 12.7-10] And YHVH will give victory to Judah...
And on that day, I will seek to destroy the nations
that come against Jerusalem (in Judah). And I will
pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on
Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him
like you weep over a firstborn child.
John's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthew's attempts. Matthew, at least, usually excontexts more
than just one passage. John's errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here. It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded.
Reckoned with
Transgressors:
After his arrest, Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship, messiahship. According to one version of
the gospel tale, Jesus gets executed along with two thieves.
[Mk 15.27] And with him they crucified two robbers,
one on his right, one on his left. And so the
scripture was fulfilled which says,
"He was reckoned with the transgressors."
Here, Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53,
about the servant nation of Israel. The passage is not about the
messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, and its
surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation. The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event. The
servant is thought of as a criminal. This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus. Had the passage really been about the
messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in Isaiah. Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry. He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career. Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons.
Mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him." [15.32] This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers. Of course in his later recount, St. Luke
decides to change some things. Luke tells us,
[Lk 23.39-43] And one of the criminals who was hanged
with him railed, "Aren't you the messiah?! Save
yourself, and us!"
This certainly fits with Mark's recount, which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said, "Save yourself!" and that the
robbers did the same. But then Luke goes on,
But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying,
"Don't you fear G'd, since you are under the same
sentence of condemnation? And we, indeed justly so,
for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds.
But, this man has done nothing wrong. And he said,
"Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom."
And Jesus answered, "Verily I say to you, today you
will be with me in paradise."
Now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived. It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech. We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering. Such a man,
apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have
been a robber. We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke. Of course, Luke's recount also disagrees with Mark's.
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus, not both. It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of G'd do not have this avenue open. This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology. In this case,
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have
seen.
The End of the
World--
Mt. 24:
Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament. It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity. Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings, and
his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about.
The disciples: Tell us, when will this [the temple's
destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your
coming, and of the close of the age?
Jesus: Take care that no one leads you astray, for
many will come in my name, saying, "I am the christ."
...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for
this must take place, but the end is not yet. For,
nation will rise against nation... all this is but the
beginning of the birthpangs.
They will deliver you up... put you to death,
and false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
...But he who endures to the end will be saved. This
gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a
testimony to the nations, and then the end will come.
So, when you see the desolation spoken of by the
prophet Daniel, ...let those who are in Judea flee to
the mountains.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from
heaven... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and see the Son of Man coming... and he will send out
his angels... and gather his elect...
Learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its
branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know
that summer is near. So also, when you see all these
things, you will know that He is near, at the very
gate. Truly I say to you, this generation will not
pass away until all these things take place...
But, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the
angels, not the Son, but only the Father... Therefore,
you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming
at an hour you do not expect.
From this, it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples. He tells
them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it
will come, and thus they must be ready. Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error.
But, unfortunately, Jesus made himself to explicit. He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End,
and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be
swept away.
There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation
shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not
pass away..." Of course, the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples.
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek,
he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear. But. it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at
least some of them) are supposed to live to the End of the World.
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles' responses. It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev. 22.7, 1 Peter 4.7, 1 John 2.18, and Rev. 22.20, that Jesus
meant exactly what he said. The End was very near.
For 2,000 years, Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether. For 2,000
years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back,
hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that He is coming soon.
Surely He must be. All we must do is wait. Can you imagine how
tired He must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for
just the right moment to spring?
So, shortly after his crucifixion, Jesus of Nazareth,
(Joshua-ben-Joseph), died. It is said that after three days, or
three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three
eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine
radiance. Then the Saviour decided it wasn't in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven. So the story goes, anyway.
As has been seen, there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down. To them,
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture. We have
seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky. But, throughout
Church history, Christians have held fast to faith, in simple
belief. What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question. To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters. Thus for 2,000 years, the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted. Things may well continue that way for some time.
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support
wars and persecution, I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold.
[Mt 10.34] Jesus: "Don't think that I have come to
bring peace on earth. I haven't come to bring peace,
but rather a sword."
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Nostalgia
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 1049
The recent rise of nostalgia in this group combined with the
incredible level of utter bullshit has prompted me to comb
through my archives and pull out some of The Best of AltAtheism
for your reading pleasure Ill post a couple of these a day
unless group concensus demands that I stop or I run out of good
material
I havent been particularly careful in the past about saving
attributions I think the following comes from John A Johnson
but someone correct me if Im wrong This is probably the longest
of my entire collection
________________________________________________________
So that the
Prophecy be
Fulfilled
In considering the Christian religion and judging it
according to its claims it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth As you will see Matthews main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages often not even
about the promised Messiah and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated But for purposes of analysis we
will take particular claims at face value
Immanuel
We begin of course at the beginning
Mt 12122 [Mary] will bear a son and you
Joseph will name him Jesus which means Gd is
salvation for he will save his people from their
sins All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
spoken by a prophet
[Isaiah 7116] In the days of Ahaz c 750 BCE
king of Judah Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
war on Jerusalem capitol of Judah but could not
quite conquer it When the house of David ie Ahaz
and his court in Judah were told of this its
heart and the heart of its people shook And the
lord Gd said to Isaiah go to meet with Ahaz
And the lord spoke to Ahaz through prophet Isaiah
naturally saying Ask a sign of Gd your lord It
can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven But
Ahaz said I wont ask I will not put the lord to a
test Then Isaiah said Hear then O house of
David Is it not enough for you to weary men that
you must weary my god too Therefore the lord
himself will give you a sign Behold a young woman
is with child and will bear a son and name him
Immanuel which means Gd is with us He will
eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
and choose good For before the child knows how to
refuse evil and choose good the land of the two kings
you dread will have been deserted
Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics
Further he the Hebrew word almah young woman as
specifically virgin But this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later It is not a prophecy about a virgin bethulah mother In
short it not about Jesus Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner a very general one it can be made to fit Mary Mary
virgin or not was indeed a young woman with child Of course
the fit is shady and has problems Jesus while thought of by
later Christians to be Gd walking among men was never called by
the name Immanuel If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus it becomes at best a cutandpaste prophecy a second
class prophecy Not too convincing
Egypt
After Jesuss birth in Bethlehem Matthew tells about a
quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion to Egypt as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king Herod
[Mt 215] and remained there until the death of
Herod This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken
Out of Egypt I have called my son
What the lord really said was this
[Hosea 111] When Israel was a child I loved him
And out of Egypt I called my son The more I called
them my people the more they went from me they
kept sacrificing to the Baals and kept burning
incense to idols
Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hoseas oracle But it
was indeed Israel that once called out of Egypt wanted to
return This is history Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here And if we are to draw some kind of parallel here we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists Gd Again this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped
Rachel Weeps
While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children Matthew then writes
[Mt 21718] By this that which was spoken by the
prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled
A voice was heard in Ramah wailing and loud
lamentation Rachel weeping for her children
she refused to be consoled because they were
no more
The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 3115 referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon of Assyria in 722
BCE Rachel the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel Ephraim
and Manasseh is said to weep for her descendants who are no
more It is metaphorical of course since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile
It is interesting to note that it was Leah not Rachel who
was the ancestor of the Judeans the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were If anyone should do weeping for her children
it is Leah The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city
on the way to Ephrath Bethlehem
As for Herod and his infanticide it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred One never knows but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesuss life to enhance
the message of the churchs gospel
Because of the whole storys similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic yet artificial approval of Jesus
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote The children the prophet
speaks of are not dead but exiled in the Assyrian Empire Gd
comforts the weeping Rachel saying that the children will be
returned he will gather them back together Of course this
would not suit Matthews purpose as the children he speaks of are
dead for good Again the prophecy Matthew sets up is not even
that and to anyone who bothers to check it out is not too
convincing
The Nazarene
We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy After leaving Egypt Joseph wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth
[Mt 223] that what was spoken of by the prophets
might be fulfilled He shall be called a Nazarene
First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophets this time Second we have to ask who He is
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene Worse
there are no prophecies period mentioning a Nazarene Still
worse there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all In the book of Judges an angel tells Samsons mother that
she will
[Judges 135] conceive and bear a son No razor
shall tough his head for he will be a Nazirite to his
god from the day of his birth He will deliver Israel
from the hands of the Philistines
This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus or the messiah of Gd
But it is the best that can be found Obviously Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cutandpaste prophecies in that he is
simple making them up now
Bearing our
Diseases
Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities
[Mt 817] This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
prophet Isaiah He took our infirmities and bore our
diseases
As expected the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme We have
[Is 534] Surely he [the suffering servant] has
borne our sickness and carried our pains
From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel Jehovahs chosen servant and people He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity an image of a chastised yet cherished Israel as the
instrument of the nations salvation by Gd
The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline They do not speak of a servant going around and
healing people Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations and individual Jews Jesus
as we all know did not take the diseases onto himself The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come but
rather something that had already happened While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell he did not bear
the illnesses he healed So while someone might want to say
that figuratively Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement he has to admit that Matthews parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect
Silent Messiah
Upon healing multitudes of commoners it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet presumable so that he wouldnt arouse
the attention of the local rulers
[Mt 121521] This was to fulfill what was spoken by
the prophet Isaiah
Behold my servant whom I have chosen my beloved
with whom my soul is pleased I will put my spirit on
him and he will announce justice to the Gentiles He
will not wrangle or cry aloud nor will anyone hear
his voice in the streets He will not break a bruised
reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
justice to victory and the gentiles will hope in his
name
The Isaiah passage quoted reads
[Is 4214] Behold my servant whom I uphold my
chosen in whom my soul delights I have put my
spirit on him and he will bring forth justice to the
nations We will not cry or lift up his voice or
make it heard in the street He will not break a
bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick He will
faithfully bring forth justice He will not fail
burn dimly or be discouraged bruised until he has
established justice in the earth And the coastlands
await his law
You see Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus Christians could
never think of Jesus failing never would the light of mankind
burn dimly But the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done When the gentiles come to embrace
Gd there will no longer be a chosen people but rather all will
be the children of Gd Also the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic the coastlands await his law to the
Christologic the Gentiles will hope in his name While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of believing in the name If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus one has only
to read the whole chapter Isaiah 42 and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant a people robbed and
plundered So we see that when Matthews attempt at
prophecy is examined it crumbles
Three Days and
Three Nights
Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection
[Mt 1240] For as Jonah was in the belly of the
whale for three days and three nights so will the Son
of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
three nights
Before any further discussion can occur it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days As far as day names went each was
24 hours long lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm What was referred to as a day was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm Thus according to our time
scale a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening and lasted until
6pm saturday evening This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays instead of Sundays
It seems like a real miracle that Christians didnt forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week Thus
when days and nights are referred to together 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of Thus
Jesus says that he will be in the grave or in hell or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights
As the good book tells us Jesus was crucified on the ninth
hour which is 3pm Friday afternoon He then was put into the
grave sometime after that Then Jesus left the grave rose
before dawn of what we call Sunday The dawn after the sabbath was
over What this means is that Jesus was using our time for
clarity in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday since the bible is not specific here What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day two
nights and possibly a couple of hours of one day Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights even using modern time measurements We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthews little
mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his
gods mouth And no matter who made the prediction it is more
than unconvincing it is counterconvincing
Hearing
Understanding
Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables stories in which a deeper meaning could be found if
you were already one of the elect those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants If the people cannot understand
them there is no need to bother with them since they will not
accept the plain message any better Matthew says
[Mt 131416] With them [the audience] indeed in
fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says
You will indeed hear but never understand and you
will indeed see but never perceive Because this
peoples heart has grown dull their ears are heavy of
hearing and they have shut their eyes so the they
would not perceive with them her with their ears and
understand with their heart and turn for me to heal
them
The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works his
call to the ministry This is in 740 BCE when Israel is
flourishing right before it falls under the authority of Assyria
Isaiah sees the good times ending and also a vision from Gd
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah
[Is 6913] And Gd said Go and say to this
people `Hear and hear but do not understand see and
see but do not perceive Make the heart of this
people fat make their ears heavy and shut their
eyes so they will not see with their eyes or hear
with their ears and understand with their hearts and
turn and be healed Then Isaiah said How long
lord And he said Until the cities lie waste
without inhabitant and houses without men and the
land is utterly desolate and the Gds take men far
away and forsaken places are many in the land And
though a tenth will remain in it it will be burned
again like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
stands when the tree is felled The holy seed is its
stump
Here we see that it is really Gd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophets warnings but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomons and Davids seedlineage If you read
the rest of Isaiah you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of Gd to use Israel as a servant a light to the nations Look
at Isaiah 421825 4820 493
We see that Matthew has cutandpasted just a little portion
of Isaiahs verse to suit his own gospel needs More than that
he has altered the words to make it fit the people who didnt
understand Jesuss stories And as we see Isaiahs verses are
not prophecies but rather commands from Gd to him in the
present Once again Matthews prophecy falls flat on its face
Matthew tries again to make Jesuss parables look like they
have the prophetic approval
[Mt 1335] he said nothing to them without a
parable This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
prophet I will open my mouth to them in parables I
will utter that which has been hidden since the
foundation of the world
Matthew really botches up here He attempts to quote not from a
prophet but from the Psalms
[Ps 7824] I will open my mouth in parable I will
utter dark sayings of old things that we all have
heard and known things that our fathers have told us
We will not hide them from their children but tell to
the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
lord
As was pointed out the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthews gospel even inserted Isaiahs name as this prophet
Apparently later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up
Perhaps the most significant part of this is that once
again Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures As Jesus
has said earlier he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden
Further they speak of things known that our fathers have told
us Jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation of the
world Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them And still once again
Matthews artificial prophecies fall flat on their face But
Christians rarely look at this Matthews prophecies arent the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad
Excuses of
Little Faith
In Mt 171421 we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons except in one case Not knowing what
epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to dispossess the epileptic But Jesus perhaps no more
enlightened than they is reported to have rebuked them saying
they didnt have enough faith This seems strange Why was this
demon special It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not Apparently enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains Of course you will find no one these days that can
move real mountains No one parts seas The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place Major miracles are making some old
womans arthritis feel better on Sunday morning TV
And the gods including Jesus are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts They are either dead sleeping or hiding in
heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone Yet life goes on
Tales of mystics stories of miracles all in a distant time
or a distant place Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days Jehovah too But now they are silent All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we dont get to see
God anymore
Were too lazy were not zealous enough were
sinful its just his plan we put too many of our
own demands on Gds appearance if we had the right
faith if we were willing to meet Gd on his terms
Yet even the most pious of men have not seen Gd You dear
reader have not seen Gd Not literally you know that to be
true I know thats presumptuous and bold But searching your
heart you know what I mean All that weve seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing Gd They say
our little faith does not merit us to see Gd Sometimes they
say See the love in these people you worship with see the
lives of people change that is seeing Gd Thus people get
lulled to sleep satisfied with turning Gd into the everyday
sights But that is not seeing Gd as I am speaking of it is
not seeing Gd the way people used to see
What we see in the world that is good is the compassion of
human hearts the love given and taken by men and women the
forgiveness practised by Christian Atheist alike beauty created
by the mind of man These are the things that are done these are
what we see But it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith
Jesus Rides on
an Ass
Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem
[Mt 215] This took place to fulfil what was spoken
by the prophet saying
Tell the daughter of Zion Behold your king is
coming to you humble mounted on an ass and on a
asscolt
Of course the passage quoted from Zechariah 99 reads a little
differently
Lo your king comes to you he is triumphant and
victorious humble and riding on an ass on an ass
colt he will command peace to the nations
There isnt all that much difference here except that Zechariah
only involves one animal an asscolt while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently Thus he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass From Matthews version we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys This could inevitably lead to a theological
proctological dilemma We find that in the account written
earlier by St Mark only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses he has
bungled Now excluding many respectable Christians I have met I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses
the situation is often reversed nowadays
Then entering the Jerusalem temple the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah But
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done
[Mt 2116] Havent you read `Out of the mouth of
babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise
It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little prophetic things AND
since as we might expect the quote is in error which seems to
fit Matthews track record quite well We might ask Jesus or
Matthew Havent you read for the source reads
[Psalms 812] O YaHWeH our lord how majestic is
your name in the whole world You whose glory is
chanted above the heavens by babes and infants you
have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
enemy and the avenger
The passages hardly need comment There is no perfect praise
spoken of in the psalm and what praise is there is given to Gd
not his messiah king and not Jesus As mentioned it seems to be
just one more case of Matthews pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture
YHVH said to
my lord
Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiahking is to be descended The Jews agree it is king
David But then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110
The LORD said to my Lord sit at my right hand until
I put your enemies under your feet
Taken at face value Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent One assumes he is in opposition to their answer Of
course the Christian answer is that he agrees but is trying to
make some hidden point to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiahking Its tempting to believe this if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation
But there are problems
In Jesuss time the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah And it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under Davids
rule Of course the Jews listening had no good answer and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah such as the
Christians worship The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm an error that apparently several Jews of Jesuss time had
also made One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews often as a result of different expectations of the
messiahking Jesus was apparently one of these adventists like
his audience who thought the messiahs advent was imminent and
who interpreted Psalms 110 among others as being messianic
What is the problem then Psalm 110 literally reads
YHVHs utterance to my lord
Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your
footstool
YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion Rule
in the midst of your foes Your people will offer
themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
holy mountains
You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
forever
The word lord is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord But in the Hebrew the
word is adoni and no capitalisation exists Adoni simply means
lord a generic term as we would use it It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to Gd It is merely an
address of respect
There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiahking That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain The title of the
psalm translates to either a psalm of David or a psalm about
David It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet about Davids covenant and endorsement from Gd If the
psalm had been written by David it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah The idea of a perfect king descended
from David was not present in Davids age We have extensive
tales of Davids doings and sayings none of which include any
praises of a messiah
Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead in times of the exile when Gd had put his show of
favour for Davids kingdom on hold
The description in the psalm fit David very well David was
promised by Gd a rise to power victory over his enemies
successful judgement among the nations he conquered He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king
enabled to bless the people It all fits
We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone
though Here there is not artificial prophecy alluded to though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable Still this
event is common to the other gospels too So we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time It is interesting to note
though how Matthew dresses up the event The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd
Matthew has the Pharisees who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity be the target of Jesuss question As we
might expect Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees Such power is the pen
Moses Jesus
Had it Together
All Along
We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudoprophecy in Johns gospel The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesuss career as told by even Matthew
But for the moment we will just look at one verse The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by Gd When constructing the history of Abraham Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people While this
was accomplished eventually under the rule of king David the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise But to do so they expanded on the
promise preaching about a heavenly kingdom
[John 856] JC speaking Your father Abraham
rejoiced to see My day He say it and was glad
It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham but
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah or anything Christian
I have tried and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to Johns little prophecy It is par for the
course to see St John making up Old Testament backings just like
his forerunner Matthew Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud and it is surprising they
still cling to it
The Potters
Field
We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers Judas Iscariot Matthew writes
[Mt 27510] And throwing down the pieces of silver
in the temple [Judas] departed But the chief
priests taking the silver said It isnt lawful for
us to put it in the treasury since it is blood
money So they bought a potters field with it to
bury strangers in Then was fulfilled what was
spoken by the prophet Jeremiah
And they took the thirty pieces of silver the price
of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
sons of Israel and they gave them for the potters
field as the lord directed me
This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture First Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of
[Zech 111213] And they weighed out my wages
thirty shekels of silver Then YHVH said to me Cast
them to the treasury the lordly price at which I
was paid off by them So I took the thirty shekels of
silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
YHVH
First of all the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah or of Gd The deal with a shepherd most likely
a priest chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before Gd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another The word treasury had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with to the potter precisely because this made
Matthews quote fit better But this is a blatant error The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed treasury which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariahs context whereas potters
field is totally unrelated Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation However given
Matthews track record one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty
Of course Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text The thirty pieces of silver match Judass situation and if
as most Christians seem to be the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around However the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite Of course to the average ThursdayNight Bible student
the prophecy as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value To those Matthews work is convincing
enough
Wine Vinegar
Casting Lots
Then Jesus is led away to be crucified
[Mt 273435] they gave him vinegar to drink
mingled with gall but when he tasted it he would not
drink it And when they had crucified him they
divided his garments among them by casting lots that
it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet
They parted my garments among them and upon my
vesture did they cast lots
First of all the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly We find
that right before Jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink not polluted with gall
[Jn 192830] Jesus said I thirst A bowl of
vinegar stood there so they put a sponge full of the
vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth When he
had received the vinegar he said It is finished
But Matthew seems to be drawing on not a passage from the
prophets but one from the Psalms
[Ps 692028] I looked for pity but there was none
and for comforters but I found none They gave me
poison for food lit they put gall in my meat and
for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink Add
to them punishment upon punishment may they have no
acquittal from thee Let them be blotted out of the
Book of the Living
Of course the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink This does indeed seem to be a show of pity The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies It
is not about the messiah or Jesus It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the Jesus in the
psalm asks Gd for the damnation of the crucifiers whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says
[Lk 2334] Jesus said Father forgive them the
dont know what they do
Further Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall a bitter substance put into Jesuss drink not his
meat as the psalm stipulates
With the prophecy of the vinegar faulty we naturally
ask What of the casting of lots This brings up the 22nd
Psalm which deserves discussion all by itself Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesuss clothes were divided as told is no
great thing It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days As we will soon see it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesuss clothes For a man so removed from worldly possessions
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions
The 22nd Psalm
This psalm is attributed to David as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope Taken out of context parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well We
will examine the primary passages
Verse 12 My god my god why have you forsaken me
Why are you so far from helping me far from the words
of my groaning Oh my god I cry by day but you
dont answer and by night but find no rest
Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus rather
than king David Of course the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal he is supposed to be like the
lamb led mute before its shearers Indeed Jesus doesnt do much
groaning even when on the cross He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross
68 But I am a worm and no man scorned by men
All who see me mock at me They make faces and wag
their heads He committed his cause to YHVH So let
him deliver him for he delights in him
This seems to fit Jesuss execution pretty well with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm
1213 Many bulls encompass me they open their
mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion
1618 Yea dogs are round about me a company of
evildoers encircle me they have pierced my hands and
feet I can see all my bones They divide my
garments among them and cast lost for my raiment
1921 But you YHVH be not far away Deliver my
soul from the sword my life from the power of the
dog Save me from the mouth of the lion and my
afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull
It would seem quite convincing and Im sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too Unfortunately
this prophecy has a fatal flaw The words have pierced really
do not exist in the psalm The correct Hebrew translation is
16 Yea dogs are round about me a company of
evildoers encircles me like the lion they are at my
hands and feet
In Hebrew the phrase like the lion and a very rare verb form
which can mean pierced differ by one phonetic character The
word in the Hebrew text is literally like the lion kaari
which makes sense in the context and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to kaaru But to
add the needed yet artificial weight to the prophecy this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators
Apart from the erroneous verse 16 the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross This naturally fits the
psalms true subject king David As a side note we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather
the forearms This doesnt say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms But then facts arent bound by our religious beliefs
Matthew escapes culpability this time as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus But the psalm like many others was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesuss life and death How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology It is easy to see for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been enhanced by scribes such as the eager Matthew But
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims So far this has not said good
things for St Matthew
The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesuss
crucifixion Johns gospel recount written about 70 years after
the fact tells us at Jesuss execution
[Jn 193437] But one of the soldiers pierced his
side with a spear and out came blood and water
these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled
The will look on him whom theyve pierced
Of course this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them
[Zc 12710] And YHVH will give victory to Judah
And on that day I will seek to destroy the nations
that come against Jerusalem in Judah And I will
pour a spirit of compassion and supplication on
Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him
like you weep over a firstborn child
Johns attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthews attempts Matthew at least usually excontexts more
than just one passage Johns errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded
Reckoned with
Transgressors
After his arrest Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship messiahship According to one version of
the gospel tale Jesus gets executed along with two thieves
[Mk 1527] And with him they crucified two robbers
one on his right one on his left And so the
scripture was fulfilled which says
He was reckoned with the transgressors
Here Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53
about the servant nation of Israel The passage is not about the
messiah for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and its
surrounding chapters one sees that the servant is a nation The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past not a prediction of what is to come in any event The
servant is thought of as a criminal This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus Had the passage really been about the
messiah it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy at least in this case as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons
Mark goes on to tell us how those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him [1532] This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers Of course in his later recount St Luke
decides to change some things Luke tells us
[Lk 233943] And one of the criminals who was hanged
with him railed Arent you the messiah Save
yourself and us
This certainly fits with Marks recount which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said Save yourself and that the
robbers did the same But then Luke goes on
But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying
Dont you fear Gd since you are under the same
sentence of condemnation And we indeed justly so
for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds
But this man has done nothing wrong And he said
Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom
And Jesus answered Verily I say to you today you
will be with me in paradise
Now this little dialogue seems highly contrived It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering Such a man
apparently noble and of principle doesnt seem likely to have
been a robber We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke Of course Lukes recount also disagrees with Marks
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus not both It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of Gd do not have this avenue open This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology In this case
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems as we have
seen
The End of the
World
Mt 24
Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings and
his disciples ask him about this and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about
The disciples Tell us when will this [the temples
destruction] be and what will be the sign of your
coming and of the close of the age
Jesus Take care that no one leads you astray for
many will come in my name saying I am the christ
you will hear of wars and rumours of wars for
this must take place but the end is not yet For
nation will rise against nation all this is but the
beginning of the birthpangs
They will deliver you up put you to death
and false prophets will arise and lead many astray
But he who endures to the end will be saved This
gospel will be preached throughout the whole world a
testimony to the nations and then the end will come
So when you see the desolation spoken of by the
prophet Daniel let those who are in Judea flee to
the mountains
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened the stars will fall from
heaven then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn
and see the Son of Man coming and he will send out
his angels and gather his elect
Learn the lesson of the fig tree as soon as its
branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know
that summer is near So also when you see all these
things you will know that He is near at the very
gate Truly I say to you this generation will not
pass away until all these things take place
But of the day and hour no one knows not the
angels not the Son but only the Father Therefore
you also must be ready for the Son of Man is coming
at an hour you do not expect
From this it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples He tells
them that although he doesnt know the exact day or hour that it
will come and thus they must be ready Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error
But unfortunately Jesus made himself to explicit He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End
and that they in particular should prepare for it prepare to be
swept away
There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible and said that the phrase this generation
shall not pass away really means this race of people will not
pass away Of course the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that the generation of the disciples
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek
he didnt learn it well enough to make himself clear But it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples at
least some of them are supposed to live to the End of the World
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles responses It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev 227 1 Peter 47 1 John 218 and Rev 2220 that Jesus
meant exactly what he said The End was very near
For 2000 years Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew or ignored its meaning altogether For 2000
years they have waited for their executed leader to come back
hearing of wars and rumours of wars sure that He is coming soon
Surely He must be All we must do is wait Can you imagine how
tired He must be sitting around up there being holy waiting for
just the right moment to spring
So shortly after his crucifixion Jesus of Nazareth
JoshuabenJoseph died It is said that after three days or
three days and three nights or three periods of time or three
eternal seconds or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble he was seen again resurrected glowing with divine
radiance Then the Saviour decided it wasnt in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven So the story goes anyway
As has been seen there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down To them
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture We have
seen though that this matter is quite shaky But throughout
Church history Christians have held fast to faith in simple
belief What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters Thus for 2000 years the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted Things may well continue that way for some time
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used properly or improperly to support
wars and persecution I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold
[Mt 1034] Jesus Dont think that I have come to
bring peace on earth I havent come to bring peace
but rather a sword
preprocess doc From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 31
In article <STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
> Why Paul, it's obvious.
> Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
> as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
> sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to
> assume any developments in Ti processing).
> Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
> the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
> of National Importance
>
> :-) :-) :-)
Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification. The
chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace.
Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago. Very little is reduced to the
metal.
> Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
> in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
> the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
> use...
Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)
Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu
after prepro From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 31
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Why Paul its obvious
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will
sharply increase we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance
Well there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification The
chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace
Most Ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago Very little is reduced to the
metal
Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use
Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all and why their children would want to stay
Paul F Dietz
dietzcsrochesteredu
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: $1bil space race ideas/moon base on the cheap.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.150437.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
That is an idea.. The most efficient moon habitat..
also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won..
Also the idea of how to rescue someone who is "dying" on the moon.
Maybe have a area where they can all "see" each other, and can help each other
if something happens..
I liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return, by a
non-governmental body..
Also the idea of then having a moon habitat race..
I know we need to do somthing to get people involved..
Eccentric millionaire/billionaire would be nice.. We see how old Ross feels
about it.. After all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he
does care about commericalization and the people.. Will try to broach the
subject to him..
Moonbase on the cheap is a good idea.. NASA and friends seem to take to much
time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work (hubble and
such). Basically what is the difference between a $1mil peice of junk and a
multi $1mil piece of junk.. I know junk..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject 1bil space race ideasmoon base on the cheap
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251504371
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
That is an idea The most efficient moon habitat
also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won
Also the idea of how to rescue someone who is dying on the moon
Maybe have a area where they can all see each other and can help each other
if something happens
I liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return by a
nongovernmental body
Also the idea of then having a moon habitat race
I know we need to do somthing to get people involved
Eccentric millionairebillionaire would be nice We see how old Ross feels
about it After all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he
does care about commericalization and the people Will try to broach the
subject to him
Moonbase on the cheap is a good idea NASA and friends seem to take to much
time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work hubble and
such Basically what is the difference between a 1mil peice of junk and a
multi 1mil piece of junk I know junk
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 24
In article <C5L1Fv.H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
>How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?
>
So now we're judging the Qur'an by what's not in it?
How many mutton headed arguments am I going to have to wade
through today?
>Lots of other books have been written on this subject. Those
>books can speak far more eloquently than I.
One would hope.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 24
In article khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it
So now were judging the Quran by whats not in it
How many mutton headed arguments am I going to have to wade
through today
Lots of other books have been written on this subject Those
books can speak far more eloquently than I
One would hope
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (was: Americans and Evolution)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 110
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu
In article <1993Apr2.155057.808@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
[why do babies get diseases, etc.]
>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
>mutable and can evolve. Without delving into a deep discussion of
>creationism vs evolutionism,
Here's the (main) problem. The scenario you outline is reasonably
consistent, but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does
not support it, but indicates something far different. The Earth, by
latest estimates, is about 4.6 billion years old, and has had life for
about 3.5 billion of those years. Humans have only been around for (at
most) about 200,000 years. But, the fossil evidence inidcates that life
has been changing and evolving, and, in fact, disease-ridden, long before
there were people. (Yes, there are fossils that show signs of disease...
mostly bone disorders, of course, but there are some.) Heck, not just
fossil evidence, but what we've been able to glean from genetic study shows
that disease has been around for a long, long time. If human sin was what
brought about disease (at least, indirectly, though necessarily) then
how could it exist before humans?
> God created the original genetic code
>perfect and without flaw. And without getting sidetracked into
>the theological ramifications of the original sin, the main effect
>of the so-called original sin for this discussion was to remove
>humanity from God's protection since by their choice A&E cut
>themselves off from intimate fellowship with God. In addition, their
>sin caused them to come under the dominion of Satan, who then assumed
>dominion over the earth...
[deletions]
>Since humanity was no longer under God's protection but under Satan's
>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic. Although the forces of
>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.
Uh... I know of many evolutionary biologists, who know more about
biology than you claim to, who will strongly disagree with this. There
is no evidence that the human genetic code (or any other) 'started off'
in perfect condition. It seems to adapt to its envionment, in a
collective sense. I'm really curious as to what you mean by 'the
degeneration of the genetic code'.
>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the
>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in
>causing infection and disease. It is a bad combination.
Umm. Nah, we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and
bacteria, and they to us. Only a very small percentage of microlife is
harmful to humans... and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby
constant in size, but the ranks keep changing. For example, bubonic
plague used to be a really nasty disease, I'm sure you'll agree. But
it still pops up from time to time, even today... and doesn't do as
much damage. Part of that is because of better sanitation, but even
when people get the disease, the symptoms tend to be less severe than in
the past. This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible
died off long ago, and because the really nasty variants 'overgrazed',
(forgive the poor terminology, I'm an engineer, not a doctor! :-> ) and
died off for lack of nearby hosts.
I could be wrong on this, but from what I gather acne is only a few
hundred years old, and used to be nastier, though no killer. It seems to
be getting less nasty w/age...
> Hence
>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
>diseases/disorders.
Now, wait a minute. I have a question. Humans were created perfect, right?
And, you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease. It
seems unlikely that Satan, who's making the diseases, would also gift
humans with the means to fight them off. Simpler to make the diseases less
lethal, if he wants survivors. As far as I can see, our immune systems,
imperfect though they may (presently?) be, must have been built into us
by God. I want to be clear on this: are you saying that God was planning
ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune
system that was not, at the time of design, necessary? That is, God made
our immune systems ahead of time, knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and
their descendents would need to fight off diseases?
>This may be more of a mystical/supernatural explanation than you
>are prepared to accept, but God is not responsible for disease.
>Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
>disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since
>humanity forsook God's protection.
Here's another puzzle. What, exactly, do you mean by 'perfect' in the
phrase, 'created... perfect and without flaw'? To my mind, a 'perfect'
system would be incapable of degrading over time. A 'perfect' system
that will, without constant intervention, become imperfect is *not* a
perfect system. At least, IMHO.
Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a
bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmer's glue? That is, the
original genetic 'instructions' were perfect, but were 'written' in
inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart?
If so, why could God not have used better materials?
Was God *incapable* of creating a system that could maintain itself,
of did It just choose not to?
[deletions]
>In summary, newborns are innocent, but God does not cause their suffering.
My main point, as I said, was that there really isn't any evidence for
the explanation you give. (At least, that I'm aware of.) But, I couldn't
help making a few nitpicks here and there. :->
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles || The above opinions are probably
|| not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu || Michigan. Yet.
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality was Americans and Evolution
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 110
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu
In article 1993Apr2155057808batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
[why do babies get diseases etc]
What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
mutable and can evolve Without delving into a deep discussion of
creationism vs evolutionism
Heres the main problem The scenario you outline is reasonably
consistent but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does
not support it but indicates something far different The Earth by
latest estimates is about 46 billion years old and has had life for
about 35 billion of those years Humans have only been around for at
most about 200000 years But the fossil evidence inidcates that life
has been changing and evolving and in fact diseaseridden long before
there were people Yes there are fossils that show signs of disease
mostly bone disorders of course but there are some Heck not just
fossil evidence but what weve been able to glean from genetic study shows
that disease has been around for a long long time If human sin was what
brought about disease at least indirectly though necessarily then
how could it exist before humans
God created the original genetic code
perfect and without flaw And without getting sidetracked into
the theological ramifications of the original sin the main effect
of the socalled original sin for this discussion was to remove
humanity from Gods protection since by their choice AE cut
themselves off from intimate fellowship with God In addition their
sin caused them to come under the dominion of Satan who then assumed
dominion over the earth
[deletions]
Since humanity was no longer under Gods protection but under Satans
dominion it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
diseases both bacterialviral and genetic Although the forces of
natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the
degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this
Uh I know of many evolutionary biologists who know more about
biology than you claim to who will strongly disagree with this There
is no evidence that the human genetic code or any other started off
in perfect condition It seems to adapt to its envionment in a
collective sense Im really curious as to what you mean by the
degeneration of the genetic code
Human DNA being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely
affecting our wellbeing and ability to fight off disease while the
simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in
causing infection and disease It is a bad combination
Umm Nah we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and
bacteria and they to us Only a very small percentage of microlife is
harmful to humans and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby
constant in size but the ranks keep changing For example bubonic
plague used to be a really nasty disease Im sure youll agree But
it still pops up from time to time even today and doesnt do as
much damage Part of that is because of better sanitation but even
when people get the disease the symptoms tend to be less severe than in
the past This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible
died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed
forgive the poor terminology Im an engineer not a doctor and
died off for lack of nearby hosts
I could be wrong on this but from what I gather acne is only a few
hundred years old and used to be nastier though no killer It seems to
be getting less nasty wage
Hence
we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial
diseasesdisorders
Now wait a minute I have a question Humans were created perfect right
And you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease It
seems unlikely that Satan whos making the diseases would also gift
humans with the means to fight them off Simpler to make the diseases less
lethal if he wants survivors As far as I can see our immune systems
imperfect though they may presently be must have been built into us
by God I want to be clear on this are you saying that God was planning
ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune
system that was not at the time of design necessary That is God made
our immune systems ahead of time knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and
their descendents would need to fight off diseases
This may be more of a mysticalsupernatural explanation than you
are prepared to accept but God is not responsible for disease
Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since
humanity forsook Gods protection
Heres another puzzle What exactly do you mean by perfect in the
phrase created perfect and without flaw To my mind a perfect
system would be incapable of degrading over time A perfect system
that will without constant intervention become imperfect is not a
perfect system At least IMHO
Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a
bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmers glue That is the
original genetic instructions were perfect but were written in
inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart
If so why could God not have used better materials
Was God incapable of creating a system that could maintain itself
of did It just choose not to
[deletions]
In summary newborns are innocent but God does not cause their suffering
My main point as I said was that there really isnt any evidence for
the explanation you give At least that Im aware of But I couldnt
help making a few nitpicks here and there
Sincerely
Ray Ingles The above opinions are probably
not those of the University of
inglesenginumichedu Michigan Yet
preprocess doc From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion...)
Lines: 48
nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu, University of Alaska Fairbanks writes:
[A GOOD DEAL OF HEALTHY IF NOT DEEPLY THOUGHT OUT IDEALISM DELETED
BELOW.]
>Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
>[...] Can the truly inforce it? [...]
If their parent company does business (and they will) on the face of the Earth
then they are vulnerable to govt. sanctions. Yes they can be stopped.
>If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
>stop you from doing it. [...]
For the first 100 - 500 (IMHO) years nobody will have to. The colonists will
be too dependent on Earth too pull it off. Eventually they will, history
shows us that.
>Also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it.
>The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will
>not care [...]
What exactly do you mean here? Terrorism? Start an international incident
so your dream can come true? Crack a few eggs to make the omelet? This
sounds fairly irresponsible.
>Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
>little bit farther out, to do jus ta little bit more, and to tell the crown to
>piss off.. If my ancestors thought the way many today think, Id have been born
>in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea..
Again, the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than
any immigrants that have gone before. Even those intrepid Asian
explorers that crossed the Bering land bridge did not have to carry their
air on their backs.
==
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
Keep the dream alive, maybe dream it a little more cogently.
Tom Freebairn | There once was a man
| Who built a boat
| To sail away in.
| It sank.
| J.P. Donleavy
_Fairy Tale of New York_ (maybe?)
after prepro From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion
Lines 48
nsmcaauroraalaskaedu University of Alaska Fairbanks writes
[A GOOD DEAL OF HEALTHY IF NOT DEEPLY THOUGHT OUT IDEALISM DELETED
BELOW]
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
[] Can the truly inforce it []
If their parent company does business and they will on the face of the Earth
then they are vulnerable to govt sanctions Yes they can be stopped
If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it []
For the first 100 500 IMHO years nobody will have to The colonists will
be too dependent on Earth too pull it off Eventually they will history
shows us that
Also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will
not care []
What exactly do you mean here Terrorism Start an international incident
so your dream can come true Crack a few eggs to make the omelet This
sounds fairly irresponsible
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out to do jus ta little bit more and to tell the crown to
piss off If my ancestors thought the way many today think Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea
Again the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than
any immigrants that have gone before Even those intrepid Asian
explorers that crossed the Bering land bridge did not have to carry their
air on their backs
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Keep the dream alive maybe dream it a little more cogently
Tom Freebairn There once was a man
Who built a boat
To sail away in
It sank
JP Donleavy
_Fairy Tale of New York_ maybe
preprocess doc From: nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson)
Subject: COMET...when did/will she launch?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Lines: 12
COMET (Commercial Experiment Transport) is to launch from Wallops Island
Virginia and orbit Earth for about 30 days. It is scheduled to come down
in the Utah Test & Training Range, west of Salt Lake City, Utah. I saw
a message in this group toward the end of March that it was to launch
on March 27. Does anyone know if it launched on that day, or if not,
when it is scheduled to launch and/or when it will come down.
I would also be interested in what kind(s) of payload(s) are onboard.
Thanks for your help.
Norman Anderson nanderso@endor.sim.es.com
after prepro From nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson
Subject COMETwhen didwill she launch
Organization Evans Sutherland Computer Corp
Lines 12
COMET Commercial Experiment Transport is to launch from Wallops Island
Virginia and orbit Earth for about 30 days It is scheduled to come down
in the Utah Test Training Range west of Salt Lake City Utah I saw
a message in this group toward the end of March that it was to launch
on March 27 Does anyone know if it launched on that day or if not
when it is scheduled to launch andor when it will come down
I would also be interested in what kinds of payloads are onboard
Thanks for your help
Norman Anderson nandersoendorsimescom
preprocess doc Subject: Fluids vs Liquids
From: mikec@sail.LABS.TEK.COM (Micheal Cranford)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 18
west@next02.wam.umd.edu (Brian West) writes:
[ deleted ]
>A similar analogy can be made with glass. For those of you who don't
>know, glass is a liquid (go ask your science teacher) and DOES flow.
[ deleted ]
If your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid, try to get a different
science teacher B^). Glass is a supercooled fluid, it is not a liquid (except
at very high temperatures). The definition of liquid includes "readily takes
the form of its container". Let's try to be more accurate here. We don't want
people to think we're creationists now do we?
UUCP: uunet!tektronix!sail!mikec or M.Cranford
uunet!tektronix!sail.labs.tek.com!mikec Principal Troll
ARPA: mikec%sail.LABS.TEK.COM@RELAY.CS.NET Resident Skeptic
CSNet: mikec@sail.LABS.TEK.COM TekLabs, Tektronix
after prepro Subject Fluids vs Liquids
From mikecsailLABSTEKCOM Micheal Cranford
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 18
westnext02wamumdedu Brian West writes
[ deleted ]
A similar analogy can be made with glass For those of you who dont
know glass is a liquid go ask your science teacher and DOES flow
[ deleted ]
If your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid try to get a different
science teacher B^ Glass is a supercooled fluid it is not a liquid except
at very high temperatures The definition of liquid includes readily takes
the form of its container Lets try to be more accurate here We dont want
people to think were creationists now do we
UUCP uunettektronixsailmikec or MCranford
uunettektronixsaillabstekcommikec Principal Troll
ARPA mikecsailLABSTEKCOMRELAYCSNET Resident Skeptic
CSNet mikecsailLABSTEKCOM TekLabs Tektronix
preprocess doc From: ()
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Nntp-Posting-Host: nstlm66
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 21
In article <115561@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:
>Khomeini advocates the view that
> there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders (the Twelve Imams) who
> are free of error or sin. This makes him a heretic.
>
Wow, you're quicker to point out heresy than the Church in the
Middle ages. Seriously though, even the Sheiks at Al-Azhar don't
claim that the Shi'ites are heretics. Most of the accusations
and fabrications about Shi'ites come out of Saudi Arabia from the
Wahabis. For that matter you should read the original works of
the Sunni Imams (Imams of the four madhabs). The teacher of
at least two of them was Imam Jafar Sadiq (the sixth Imam of the
Shi'ites).
Although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around
about the Shi'ites (esp. since the revolution), there are also
many good works by Shi'ites which present the views and teachings
of their school. Why make assumptions and allegations (like
people in this group have done about Islam in general) about Shi'ites.
after prepro From
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
NntpPostingHost nstlm66
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 21
In article 115561buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote
Khomeini advocates the view that
there was a series of twelve Islamic leaders the Twelve Imams who
are free of error or sin This makes him a heretic
Wow youre quicker to point out heresy than the Church in the
Middle ages Seriously though even the Sheiks at AlAzhar dont
claim that the Shiites are heretics Most of the accusations
and fabrications about Shiites come out of Saudi Arabia from the
Wahabis For that matter you should read the original works of
the Sunni Imams Imams of the four madhabs The teacher of
at least two of them was Imam Jafar Sadiq the sixth Imam of the
Shiites
Although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around
about the Shiites esp since the revolution there are also
many good works by Shiites which present the views and teachings
of their school Why make assumptions and allegations like
people in this group have done about Islam in general about Shiites
preprocess doc Subject: Space FAQ 01/15 - Introduction
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:53:44 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <intro_730956346@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 310
Archive-name: space/intro
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:10 $
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON SCI.SPACE/SCI.ASTRO
INTRODUCTION
This series of linked messages is periodically posted to the Usenet
groups sci.space and sci.astro in an attempt to provide good answers to
frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth
preserving. If you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked
questions that you would like included in this posting, send email to
leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech).
If you don't want to see the FAQ, add 'Frequently Asked Questions' to
your KILL file for this group (if you're not reading this with a newsreader
that can kill articles by subject, you're out of luck).
The FAQ volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down
by rewriting and condensing over time. The FAQ postings are available in
the Ames SPACE archive in FAQ/faq<#>.
Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here. The
point of this is to circulate existing information, and avoid rehashing old
answers. Better to build on top than start again. Nothing more depressing
than rehashing old topics for the 100th time. References are provided
because they give more complete information than any short generalization.
Questions fall into three basic types:
1) Where do I find some information about space?
Try your local public library first. The net is not a good place to ask
for general information. Ask INDIVIDUALS (by email) if you must. There
are other sources, use them, too. The net is a place for open ended
discussion.
2) I have an idea which would improve space flight?
Hope you aren't surprised, but 9,999 out of 10,000 have usually been
thought of before. Again, contact a direct individual source for
evaluation. NASA fields thousands of these each day.
3) Miscellanous queries.
These are addressed on a case-by-case basis in the following series of
FAQ postings.
SUGGESTIONS FOR BETTER NETIQUETTE
Read news.announce.newusers if you're on Usenet.
Minimize cross references, [Do you REALLY NEED to?]
Edit "Subject:" lines, especially if you're taking a tangent.
Send mail instead, avoid posting follow ups. (1 mail message worth
100 posts).
Internet mail readers: send requests to add/drop to SPACE-REQUEST
not SPACE.
Read all available articles before posting a follow-up. (Check all
references.)
Cut down attributed articles (leave only the points you're
responding to; remove signatures and headers). Summarize!
Put a return address in the body (signature) of your message (mail
or article), state your institution, etc. Don't assume the
'reply' function of mailers will work.
Use absolute dates. Post in a timely way. Don't post what everyone
will get on TV anyway.
Some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping:
keep lines under 80 characters for those using ASCII terminals
(use carriage returns).
INDEX TO LINKED POSTINGS
I've attempted to break the postings up into related areas. There isn't
a keyword index yet; the following lists the major subject areas in each
posting. Only those containing astronomy-related material are posted to
sci.astro (indicated by '*' following the posting number).
# Contents
1* Introduction
Suggestions for better netiquette
Index to linked postings
Notes on addresses, phone numbers, etc.
Contributors
2* Network resources
Overview
Mailing lists
Periodically updated information
Warning about non-public networks
3* Online (and some offline) sources of images, data, etc.
Introduction
Viewing Images
Online Archives
NASA Ames
NASA Astrophysics Data System
NASA Jet Propulsion Lab (Mission Information and Images)
NASA Langley (Technical Reports)
NASA Spacelink
National Space Science Data Center
Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info. Service
Starcat
Astronomical Databases
Astronomy Programs
Orbital Element Sets
SPACE Digest
Landsat & NASA Photos
Planetary Maps
Cometary Orbits
4* Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
Computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories
Computing planetary positions
Computing crater diameters from Earth-impacting asteroids
Map projections and spherical trignometry
Performing N-body simulations efficiently
Interpreting the FITS image format
Sky (Unix ephemeris program)
Three-dimensional star/galaxy coordinates
5* References on specific areas
Publishers of space/astronomy material
Careers in the space industry
DC-X single-stage to orbit (SSTO) program
How to name a star after a person
LLNL "great exploration"
Lunar Prospector
Lunar science and activities
Orbiting Earth satellite histories
Spacecraft models
Rocket propulsion
Spacecraft design
Esoteric propulsion schemes (solar sails, lasers, fusion...)
Spy satellites
Space shuttle computer systems
SETI computation (signal processing)
Amateur satellies & weather satellites
Tides
6* Constants and equations for calculations
7* Astronomical Mnemonics
8 Contacting NASA, ESA, and other space agencies/companies
NASA Centers / Arianespace / ESA / NASDA / Soyuzkarta / Space
Camp / Space Commerce Corporation / Spacehab / SPOT Image
Other commercial space businesses
9 Space shuttle answers, launch schedules, TV coverage
Shuttle launchings and landings; schedules and how to see them
Why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff?
How to receive the NASA TV channel, NASA SELECT
Amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions
Solid Rocket Booster fuel composition
10 Planetary probes - Historical Missions
US planetary missions
Mariner (Venus, Mars, & Mercury flybys and orbiters)
Pioneer (Moon, Sun, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn flybys and orbiters)
Ranger (Lunar lander and impact missions)
Lunar Orbiter (Lunar surface photography)
Surveyor (Lunar soft landers)
Viking (Mars orbiters and landers)
Voyager (Outer planet flybys)
Soviet planetary missions
Soviet Lunar probes
Soviet Venus probes
Soviet Mars probes
Japanese planetary missions
Planetary mission references
11 Upcoming planetary probes - missions and schedules
Cassini
Galileo
Magellan
Mars Observer
TOPEX/Poseidon
Ulysses
Other space science missions
Proposed missions
12 Controversial questions
What happened to the Saturn V plans
Why data from space missions isn't immediately available
Risks of nuclear (RTG) power sources for space probes
Impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer
How long can a human live unprotected in space
How the Challenger astronauts died
Using the shuttle beyond Low Earth Orbit
The "Face on Mars"
13 Space activist/interest/research groups and space publications
Groups
Publications
Undocumented Groups
14 How to become an astronaut
15 Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
NOTES ON ADDRESSES, PHONE NUMBERS, ETC.
Unless otherwise specified, telephone numbers, addresses, and so on are
for the United States of America. Non-US readers should remember to add
the country code for telephone calls, etc.
CREDITS
Eugene Miya started a series of linked FAQ postings some years ago which
inspired (and was largely absorbed into) this set.
Peter Yee and Ron Baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own
time setting up the SPACE archives at NASA Ames and forwarding official
NASA announcements.
Many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of
old postings to sci.space and sci.astro which I've edited. Please let me
know if corrections need to be made. Contributors I've managed to keep
track of are:
0004847546@mcimail.com (Francis Reddy) - map projections
ad038@yfn.ysu.edu (Steven Fisk) - publication refs.
akerman@bill.phy.queensu.CA (Richard Akerman) - crater diameters
alweigel@athena.mit.edu (Lisa Weigel) - SEDS info
aoab314@emx.utexas.edu (Srinivas Bettadpur) - tides
awpaeth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Alan Wm Paeth) - map projections
aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) - Great Exploration
baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) - planetary probe schedules
bankst@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Timothy Banks) - map projections,
variable star analysis archive
bern@uni-trier.de (Jochen Bern) - German mnemonic translation
brosen@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Bernie Rosen) - Space Camp
bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger) - FITS format
cew@venera.isi.edu (Craig E. Ward) - space group contact info
chapin@cbnewsc.att.com (Tom Chapin) - planetary positions
cunnida@tenet.edu (D. Alan Cunningham) - NASA Spacelink
cyamamot@kilroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Cliff Yamamoto) - orbital elements
datri@convex.com (Anthony Datri) - PDS/VICAR viewing software
daver@sjc.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel) - orbit formulae
dlbres10@pc.usl.edu (Phil Fraering) - propulsion
eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) - Saturn V plans, SRBs
eugene@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) - introduction,
NASA contact info, started FAQ postings
french@isu.isunet.edu (Patrick M. French) - space group contact info
g@telesoft.com (Gary Morris) - amateur radio info
gaetz@cfa.harvard.edu (Terry Gaetz) - N-body calculations,
orbital dynamics
grandi@noao.edu (Steve Grandi) - planetary positions
greer%utd201.dnet%utadnx@utspan.span.nasa.gov (Dale M. Greer) - constants
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) - survival in vacuum,
astronaut how-to, Challenger disaster, publication refs, DC-X
higgins@fnal.bitnet (William Higgins) - RTGs, publishers,
shuttle landings, spysats, propulsion, "Face on Mars"
hmueller@cssun.tamu.edu (Hal Mueller) - map projections,
orbital dynamics
jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) - launch services
jim@pnet01.cts.com (Jim Bowery) - propulsion, launch services
jnhead@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu (James N. Head) - atmospheric scale heights
jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu (Jim Scotti) - planetary positions
kcarroll@zoo.toronto.edu (Kieran A. Carroll)- refs for spacecraft design
ken@orion.bitnet (Kenneth Ng) - RTGs
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks) - shuttle roll manuever
klaes@verga.enet.dec.com (Larry Klaes) - planetary probe history
leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech) - crater diameters
lfa@ssi.com (Lou Adornato) - orbital dynamics
maury.markowitz@egsgate.fidonet.org (Maury Markowitz) - propulsion
max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis) - equations
mbellon@mcdurb.Urbana.Gould.COM - N-body calculations
mcconley@phoenix.Princeton.edu (Marc Wayne Mcconley) - space careers
msb@sq.com (Mark Brader) - Mariner 1 info.
mwm@cmu.edu (Mark Maimone) - SPACE Digest
nickw@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Dr. Nick Watkins) - models, spysats
ohainaut@eso.org (Olivier R. Hainaut) - publishers, STARCAT
oneil@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (Graham O'Neil) - Lunar Prospector
panama@cup.portal.com (Kenneth W Durham) - cometary orbits, IAU
paul.blase@nss.fidonet.org (Paul Blase) - propulsion
pjs@plato.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Scott) - RTGs
pschleck@unomaha.edu (Paul W. Schleck) - AMSAT, ARRL contact info
rdb@mel.cocam.oz.au (Rodney Brown) - propulsion refs
rja7m@phil.cs.virginia.edu (Ran Atkinson) - FTPable astro. programs
rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com (R. Michael Jungclas)- models
roelle@sigi.jhuapl.edu (Curt Roelle) - German mnemonic translation
seal@leonardo.jpl.nasa.gov (David Seal) - Cassini mission schedule
shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) - photos, shuttle landings
smith@sndpit.enet.dec.com (Willie Smith) - photos
stephen@gpwd.gp.co.nz (Stephen Dixon) - shuttle audio frequencies
sterner@warper.jhuapl.edu (Ray Sterner) - planetary positions
stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca (Phil Stooke) - planetary maps
ted_anderson@transarc.com (Ted Anderson) - propulsion
terry@astro.as.utexas.edu (Terry Hancock) - NASA center info
thorson@typhoon.atmos.coloState.edu (Bill Thorson) - FITS info
tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu (Todd L. Masco) - SPACE Digest
tom@ssd.csd.harris.com (Tom Horsley) - refs for algorithms
veikko.makela@helsinki.fi (Veikko Makela) - orbital element sets
Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org (Wales Larrison) - groups & publications
wayne@csri.utoronto.ca (Wayne Hayes) - constants
weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) - Voyager history
yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp (Yoshiro Yamada) - ISAS/NASDA missions
yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Peter Yee) - AMES archive server,
propulsion
In Net memoriam:
Ted Flinn
NEXT: FAQ #2/15 - Network Resources
after prepro Subject Space FAQ 0115 Introduction
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195344 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 310
Archivename spaceintro
Lastmodified Date 930401 143910
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON SCISPACESCIASTRO
INTRODUCTION
This series of linked messages is periodically posted to the Usenet
groups scispace and sciastro in an attempt to provide good answers to
frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth
preserving If you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked
questions that you would like included in this posting send email to
leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
If you dont want to see the FAQ add Frequently Asked Questions to
your KILL file for this group if youre not reading this with a newsreader
that can kill articles by subject youre out of luck
The FAQ volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down
by rewriting and condensing over time The FAQ postings are available in
the Ames SPACE archive in FAQfaq
Good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here The
point of this is to circulate existing information and avoid rehashing old
answers Better to build on top than start again Nothing more depressing
than rehashing old topics for the 100th time References are provided
because they give more complete information than any short generalization
Questions fall into three basic types
1 Where do I find some information about space
Try your local public library first The net is not a good place to ask
for general information Ask INDIVIDUALS by email if you must There
are other sources use them too The net is a place for open ended
discussion
2 I have an idea which would improve space flight
Hope you arent surprised but 9999 out of 10000 have usually been
thought of before Again contact a direct individual source for
evaluation NASA fields thousands of these each day
3 Miscellanous queries
These are addressed on a casebycase basis in the following series of
FAQ postings
SUGGESTIONS FOR BETTER NETIQUETTE
Read newsannouncenewusers if youre on Usenet
Minimize cross references [Do you REALLY NEED to]
Edit Subject lines especially if youre taking a tangent
Send mail instead avoid posting follow ups 1 mail message worth
100 posts
Internet mail readers send requests to adddrop to SPACEREQUEST
not SPACE
Read all available articles before posting a followup Check all
references
Cut down attributed articles leave only the points youre
responding to remove signatures and headers Summarize
Put a return address in the body signature of your message mail
or article state your institution etc Dont assume the
reply function of mailers will work
Use absolute dates Post in a timely way Dont post what everyone
will get on TV anyway
Some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping
keep lines under 80 characters for those using ASCII terminals
use carriage returns
INDEX TO LINKED POSTINGS
Ive attempted to break the postings up into related areas There isnt
a keyword index yet the following lists the major subject areas in each
posting Only those containing astronomyrelated material are posted to
sciastro indicated by following the posting number
Contents
1 Introduction
Suggestions for better netiquette
Index to linked postings
Notes on addresses phone numbers etc
Contributors
2 Network resources
Overview
Mailing lists
Periodically updated information
Warning about nonpublic networks
3 Online and some offline sources of images data etc
Introduction
Viewing Images
Online Archives
NASA Ames
NASA Astrophysics Data System
NASA Jet Propulsion Lab Mission Information and Images
NASA Langley Technical Reports
NASA Spacelink
National Space Science Data Center
Space Telescope Science Institute Electronic Info Service
Starcat
Astronomical Databases
Astronomy Programs
Orbital Element Sets
SPACE Digest
Landsat NASA Photos
Planetary Maps
Cometary Orbits
4 Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
Computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories
Computing planetary positions
Computing crater diameters from Earthimpacting asteroids
Map projections and spherical trignometry
Performing Nbody simulations efficiently
Interpreting the FITS image format
Sky Unix ephemeris program
Threedimensional stargalaxy coordinates
5 References on specific areas
Publishers of spaceastronomy material
Careers in the space industry
DCX singlestage to orbit SSTO program
How to name a star after a person
LLNL great exploration
Lunar Prospector
Lunar science and activities
Orbiting Earth satellite histories
Spacecraft models
Rocket propulsion
Spacecraft design
Esoteric propulsion schemes solar sails lasers fusion
Spy satellites
Space shuttle computer systems
SETI computation signal processing
Amateur satellies weather satellites
Tides
6 Constants and equations for calculations
7 Astronomical Mnemonics
8 Contacting NASA ESA and other space agenciescompanies
NASA Centers Arianespace ESA NASDA Soyuzkarta Space
Camp Space Commerce Corporation Spacehab SPOT Image
Other commercial space businesses
9 Space shuttle answers launch schedules TV coverage
Shuttle launchings and landings schedules and how to see them
Why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff
How to receive the NASA TV channel NASA SELECT
Amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions
Solid Rocket Booster fuel composition
10 Planetary probes Historical Missions
US planetary missions
Mariner Venus Mars Mercury flybys and orbiters
Pioneer Moon Sun Venus Jupiter and Saturn flybys and orbiters
Ranger Lunar lander and impact missions
Lunar Orbiter Lunar surface photography
Surveyor Lunar soft landers
Viking Mars orbiters and landers
Voyager Outer planet flybys
Soviet planetary missions
Soviet Lunar probes
Soviet Venus probes
Soviet Mars probes
Japanese planetary missions
Planetary mission references
11 Upcoming planetary probes missions and schedules
Cassini
Galileo
Magellan
Mars Observer
TOPEXPoseidon
Ulysses
Other space science missions
Proposed missions
12 Controversial questions
What happened to the Saturn V plans
Why data from space missions isnt immediately available
Risks of nuclear RTG power sources for space probes
Impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer
How long can a human live unprotected in space
How the Challenger astronauts died
Using the shuttle beyond Low Earth Orbit
The Face on Mars
13 Space activistinterestresearch groups and space publications
Groups
Publications
Undocumented Groups
14 How to become an astronaut
15 Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
NOTES ON ADDRESSES PHONE NUMBERS ETC
Unless otherwise specified telephone numbers addresses and so on are
for the United States of America NonUS readers should remember to add
the country code for telephone calls etc
CREDITS
Eugene Miya started a series of linked FAQ postings some years ago which
inspired and was largely absorbed into this set
Peter Yee and Ron Baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own
time setting up the SPACE archives at NASA Ames and forwarding official
NASA announcements
Many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of
old postings to scispace and sciastro which Ive edited Please let me
know if corrections need to be made Contributors Ive managed to keep
track of are
0004847546mcimailcom Francis Reddy map projections
ad038yfnysuedu Steven Fisk publication refs
akermanbillphyqueensuCA Richard Akerman crater diameters
alweigelathenamitedu Lisa Weigel SEDS info
aoab314emxutexasedu Srinivas Bettadpur tides
awpaethwatcglwaterlooedu Alan Wm Paeth map projections
awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer Great Exploration
baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke planetary probe schedules
bankstratavuwacnz Timothy Banks map projections
variable star analysis archive
bernunitrierde Jochen Bern German mnemonic translation
brosenpioneerarcnasagov Bernie Rosen Space Camp
bschlesingernssdcagsfcnasagov Barry Schlesinger FITS format
cewveneraisiedu Craig E Ward space group contact info
chapincbnewscattcom Tom Chapin planetary positions
cunnidatenetedu D Alan Cunningham NASA Spacelink
cyamamotkilroyJplNasaGov Cliff Yamamoto orbital elements
datriconvexcom Anthony Datri PDSVICAR viewing software
daversjcmentorgcom Dave Rickel orbit formulae
dlbres10pcusledu Phil Fraering propulsion
ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder Saturn V plans SRBs
eugeneeosarcnasagov Eugene N Miya introduction
NASA contact info started FAQ postings
frenchisuisunetedu Patrick M French space group contact info
gtelesoftcom Gary Morris amateur radio info
gaetzcfaharvardedu Terry Gaetz Nbody calculations
orbital dynamics
grandinoaoedu Steve Grandi planetary positions
greerutd201dnetutadnxutspanspannasagov Dale M Greer constants
henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer survival in vacuum
astronaut howto Challenger disaster publication refs DCX
higginsfnalbitnet William Higgins RTGs publishers
shuttle landings spysats propulsion Face on Mars
hmuellercssuntamuedu Hal Mueller map projections
orbital dynamics
jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins launch services
jimpnet01ctscom Jim Bowery propulsion launch services
jnheadpirllplarizonaedu James N Head atmospheric scale heights
jscottilplarizonaedu Jim Scotti planetary positions
kcarrollzootorontoedu Kieran A Carroll refs for spacecraft design
kenorionbitnet Kenneth Ng RTGs
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov Ken Jenks shuttle roll manuever
klaesvergaenetdeccom Larry Klaes planetary probe history
leechcsuncedu Jon Leech crater diameters
lfassicom Lou Adornato orbital dynamics
maurymarkowitzegsgatefidonetorg Maury Markowitz propulsion
maxwestdarksidecom Erik Max Francis equations
mbellonmcdurbUrbanaGouldCOM Nbody calculations
mcconleyphoenixPrincetonedu Marc Wayne Mcconley space careers
msbsqcom Mark Brader Mariner 1 info
mwmcmuedu Mark Maimone SPACE Digest
nickwsymasussexacuk Dr Nick Watkins models spysats
ohainautesoorg Olivier R Hainaut publishers STARCAT
oneilaiojscnasagov Graham ONeil Lunar Prospector
panamacupportalcom Kenneth W Durham cometary orbits IAU
paulblasenssfidonetorg Paul Blase propulsion
pjsplatojplnasagov Peter Scott RTGs
pschleckunomahaedu Paul W Schleck AMSAT ARRL contact info
rdbmelcocamozau Rodney Brown propulsion refs
rja7mphilcsvirginiaedu Ran Atkinson FTPable astro programs
rjungclaihlpbattcom R Michael Jungclas models
roellesigijhuapledu Curt Roelle German mnemonic translation
sealleonardojplnasagov David Seal Cassini mission schedule
shaferskipperdfrfnasagov Mary Shafer photos shuttle landings
smithsndpitenetdeccom Willie Smith photos
stephengpwdgpconz Stephen Dixon shuttle audio frequencies
sternerwarperjhuapledu Ray Sterner planetary positions
stookevaxrsscluwoca Phil Stooke planetary maps
ted_andersontransarccom Ted Anderson propulsion
terryastroasutexasedu Terry Hancock NASA center info
thorsontyphoonatmoscoloStateedu Bill Thorson FITS info
tm2bandrewcmuedu Todd L Masco SPACE Digest
tomssdcsdharriscom Tom Horsley refs for algorithms
veikkomakelahelsinkifi Veikko Makela orbital element sets
WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg Wales Larrison groups publications
waynecsriutorontoca Wayne Hayes constants
weembalibrawistarupennedu Matthew P Wiener Voyager history
yamadayscvaxyscgojp Yoshiro Yamada ISASNASDA missions
yeeamesarcnasagov Peter Yee AMES archive server
propulsion
In Net memoriam
Ted Flinn
NEXT FAQ 215 Network Resources
preprocess doc From: sugarman@ra.cs.umb.edu (Steven R. Garman)
Subject: WANTED - Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra.cs.umb.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston
Lines: 23
[Also posted in misc.forsale.wanted,misc.wanted,ne.wanted,ny.wanted,nj.wanted]
WANTED: Optical Shaft Encoders
Quantity 2
Single-ended
Incremental
Needed to encode the movements of a 16" Cassegrain telescope. The telescope
is in the observatory of the Univ. of Mass. at Boston. The project is being
managed by Mr. George Tucker, a graduate student at UMB. Please call him, or
email/call me, if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder. Of
course, due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is
sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders. :)
George Tucker
617-965-3408
ME:
--
sugarman@cs.umb.edu | 6172876077 univ | 6177313637 home | Standard Disclaimer
Boston Massachusetts USA
after prepro From sugarmanracsumbedu Steven R Garman
Subject WANTED Optical Shaft Encoders for Telescope
NntpPostingHost racsumbedu
Organization University of Massachusetts at Boston
Lines 23
[Also posted in miscforsalewantedmiscwantednewantednywantednjwanted]
WANTED Optical Shaft Encoders
Quantity 2
Singleended
Incremental
Needed to encode the movements of a 16 Cassegrain telescope The telescope
is in the observatory of the Univ of Mass at Boston The project is being
managed by Mr George Tucker a graduate student at UMB Please call him or
emailcall me if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder Of
course due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is
sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders
George Tucker
6179653408
ME
sugarmancsumbedu 6172876077 univ 6177313637 home Standard Disclaimer
Boston Massachusetts USA
preprocess doc From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Commercial Space News #22
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 666
COMMERCIAL SPACE NEWS/SPACE TECHNOLOGY INVESTOR NUMBER 22
This is number twenty-two in an irregular series on commercial
space activities. The commentaries included are my thoughts on
these developments.
Sigh... as usual, I've gotten behind in getting this column
written. I can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in
the space biz. This column is put together at lunch hour and after
the house quiets down at night, so data can quickly build up if
there's a lot of other stuff going on. I've complied a lot of
information and happenings since the last column, so I'm going to
have to work to keep this one down to a readable length. Have fun!
CONTENTS:
1- US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
2- DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
3- COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC "GO-AHEAD"
4- INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GD'S SPACE BIZ "STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT"
5- ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
7- ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
8- GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
9- SPAIN'S CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
10- PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
11- CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
12- SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
13- SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
FINAL NOTES
ARTICLES
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1- US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
The US Department of Commerce projects US commercial space sales
will remain flat in 1993, with current data showing only a 2 percent
growth over 1992. As published in "US Industrial Outlook 1993"
(which was released in January), revenues from the 1993 US space
business are currently projected to be about $4,890 M.
In contrast to previous years when US commercial space sales had
shown double digits growth rates, this year's projected results are
driven by the US satellite manufacturing industry, where sales are
projected to drop from 12 satellites worth $1,300 M in 1992 to 7
satellites worth $ 670 M in 1993. The US Industrial Outlook also
projects U.S. commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year,
and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to
$450 M, future sales will be "adversely affected by the downward
revision in Department of Defense launch plans."
Offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries,
revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to
increase to $1,900 M, primarily driven by increased revenues from
broadcast and cable TV networks. Similarly, remote sensing products
and sales are projected to increase to $250 M in 1993 (up 15%).
US COMMERCIAL SPACE REVENUES 1989 1990 1991 1992(r) 1993(e)
Commercial satellites 900 1,000 1,100 1,300 670
Satellite services 750 800 1,200 1,500 1,900
Fixed (700) (735)(1,115)(1,275) (1,520)
Mobile (50) ( 65)( 85)( 225) ( 380)
Satellite ground equip 790 860 1,350 1,400 1,560
Mobile equipment (40) (85) (280) (352) ???
Commercial launches 150 570 380 450 450
Remote sensing data and services 125 155 190 215 250
Private microgravity research lab -- -- -- -- 60
===== ===== ====== ===== =====
TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUES 2,715 3,385 4,220 4,815 4,890
(r) = revised data for 1992 (e) = estimated data for 1993
[Commentary: This is the first look at how the US commercial
space industry is expected to do in 1993. In general, not a bad
report -- with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite
manufacturing area. There, changes of only a few satellites worth
$100 M or so apiece can substantially influence the annual
projection. If we look forward over several years, this market
sector should retain strong sales as US firms have been very
successful in regaining international market share in the satellite
business.
Furthermore, sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in
the next revision of this data, expected to be released about mid-
year. Data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales (including
such items as GPS receivers and portable satellite terminals)
appears to be missing from the January data set. DoC usually
publishes a listing of "Space Business Indicators" in mid-year, and
the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released
then. I expect the revised revenues should easily top $5,000 M, if
the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the
numbers, and the year should show about a 10% overall market growth.
Looking beyond this year's data, future markets look quite
promising. The DoC projects satellite service revenues could top
$3,000 M by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct
broadcasting are implemented as planned, and that mobile satellite
station sales are expected to continue to growth at 15-20 % per year
through the mid 1990's. My numbers are somewhat more pessimistic
for near-term market growth, but I agree the trend should be for
substantial growth in US commercial space sales over at least the
next 5-10 years. (My pessimism is due to more conservative
assumptions on market capture and growth in LEO communications and
satellite direct broadcasting services. I don't believe all of the
current players in the yet-to-be-born LEO communications satellite
market and in the yet-to-be-proven direct broadcasting market will
be financial successes, nor that sales growth will be as explosive
as currently projected.)
It should also be noted this year's DoC data is the first
release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research
facilities. The $60 M shown in the Janurary data is primarily for
the Spacehab module, planned for launch in April on the Space
Shuttle, but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first
sales from the COMET orbital launch and recovery experiment module.]
2- DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
McDonnell Douglas Corporation, which builds and markets the Delta
launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts. Motorola
Inc. announced in mid February that it had selected the Delta to
launch most of the satellites in the 66-satellite Iridium LEO
communications constellation, and in mid April, McDonnell Douglas
was awarded the USAF Medium Launch Vehicle III contract.
The launch services contract with Motorola for the Iridium
constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 Iridium
satellites. Another 21 satellites have been contracted to be
launched by Khrunichev Enterprise in Russian on 3 Proton vehicle
launches. These 45 satellites planned for the Delta will be
launched 5 at a time, providing for at least 9 launches.
Additional satellites in the Iridium constellation, such as a
planned on-orbit spares, may also be launched on Delta. Although
details of the launch services contract were reported to be
negotiation, and not yet final.
The USAF MLV contract also went to MDC, bidding a variant of
their Delta II launcher. This contract is only initially worth $7.5
million, but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36
launches, encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002. These
launches will deploy the next generation of the USAF's Global
Positioning System Block IIR navigation satellites, plus other
programs. First option for to meet the USAF launch options is
expected to be exercised this year, after which the USAF is expected
to request launches of up to 6 Deltas per year for at least 6 years.
Under this contract the USAF can also request "launch on demand"
services from MDC for the 1996-2002 time period, with a launch to
occur within 40 days of the request.
[Commentary: If these two contracts are fulfilled, they should
provide an excellent business base for MDC's Delta launch program
through the turn of the century. Combined, these two contracts have
a potential for about 45 launches, worth about $2,200 M to MDC, and
sustaining a core business base of $300-400 M/year. Other contracts
for international and commercial payloads, as well as for NASA
Medium ELV-class payloads, will add to this business base -- keeping
MDC as a viable commerical launch company.
However, it should be noted there are risk elements in these
contracts. Motorola's Iridium LEO communications constellation has
not yet received a US Federal Communications Commission license for
operation in the U.S., nor has Motorola lined up all the financing
and financial partners for the Iridium venture. Without these
approvals or financial backing there will be no Iridium launches.
But, hopefully, these uncertainties will be settled this year.
Similarly, the USAF MLV III program has been the target of
several Congressional actions which have slowed the production of
the GPS Block IIR satellites and deleted the funding for the MLV III
program in favor of the USAF NLS/"Spacelifter" program. At this
time, while it appears the MLV III contract will be executed, future
funding for the MLV III and other USAF commercial launch contracts
is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy
reviews. Some opinions expressed from within the Administration and
Congress propose cancellation of all "ELV upgrade" programs
(including the MLV programs) in favor of the proposed "Spacelifter"
program. Such opinions may have some weight in this year's budget
deliberations, particularly as DoD funds will be more difficult to
find in the shrinking US Defense budget.]
3- COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC "GO-AHEAD"
The first commercial license to operate a remote sensing
satellite was approved in early February by the US Department of
Commerce's Office of Space Commerce. A license was granted to
WorldView Imaging Corporation of Oakland, California to build and
operate a pair of LEO imaging satellites to provide multi-spectral
images of the Earth.
[Commentary: There has been little data released on this venture
by WorldView and the DoC, other than the announcement of the
operating and construction license. This was reported to be at the
request of WorldView. Most industry speculation identifies this new
venture as a "Star Wars" spinoff, using SDI-type technology to
provide digital Earth sensing data, and heavily integrated into
digital GIS databases for remote sensing/GIS users. Most probable
customers for this service include exploration geologists,
agricultural planners, and urban planners.
It is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the
1992 Land Remote Sensing Policy Act. The Act, as passed last
November, provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote
sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices. Prior to
this act, remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to
all users at the same prices, and private remote sensing ventures
would have had to sell at the government-set Landsat data prices.
There are rumors of several other potential commercial remote
sensing ventures working their way through the system at different
stages of development. I think the large Landsat and SPOT satellite
systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing
data market for the next decade or so. In contrast to these large,
government-sponsored remote sensing systems, smaller market ventures
such as WorldView and others can exploit market niches and use
innovative technology, and I believe, can find profitability on the
margin. I predict there may be some very interesting ventures
appearing in the next year or so.]
4- INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GD'S SPACE BIZ "STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT"
Wall Street investment house Morgan Stanley thinks General
Dynamic's Space Systems Division could still be a moneymaker,
despite having failed in the last 3 Atlas launches. In a recent
analyst's report Morgan Stanley said "We are more than ever
convinced that if the company can return the Atlas to its historical
95%-plus success rate, this will become a highly profitable, cash-
generating unit." Based upon discussions with GD's corporate
management, Morgan Stanley projects that if the Atlas problems are
cleared up the unit could see $70 M in earnings per year by 1995 and
$100 M per year by 2000. This is based upon GD's projection of
capturing about 10 Atlas launches per year on the world market.
[Commentary: Three failures in a row of their launch system has
hurt General Dynamic's Space Systems Division. Since GD has
restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses,
many market pundits have been speculating GD's space business might
be next to be sold. The Morgan Stanley report indicates GD's Space
Systems Division has some potential as a moneymaker, despite current
problems -- if they can get their act together. Sales are projected
to be about $560 M in 1993, which will probably generate a loss of
about $25 M. If GD can capture their projected share of the space
launch market, and if they have managed to clean up the reliability
of their Atlas launchers, then they could generate healthy profits
from those sales. But until they demonstrate the Atlas Centaur
program is back on track, this division will continue to show
substantial losses.
In response to the sell-off rumors, in my opinion, this operation
is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability.
To do such a takeover, the current set corporate and divisional
management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm.
In GD SSD's case, to get the division back on track, the management
team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with
the Atlas Centaur, as well as in selling Atlas services. This would
indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch
operations could find such talent in-house, and be able to convince
customers to buy their launch services. Optimally, the firm would
have substantial liquid rocket experience, and experience in
marketing space technology internationally as well. Candidates for
this might be TRW, Rockwell, Lockheed, and Martin, and possibly
McDonnell Douglas and Boeing. But most of those firms have cash
flow problems (MDC), have had a substantial business contraction
(Boeing and MDC), are involved with other launch firms (Lockheed),
or have taken on substantial debt (Martin). And coming up with the
$700-1500 M purchase price for the division is a big chunk of
change for any company.]
5 - ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
Arianespace, the operator of the Ariane launch system, is
projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990's. In early
February, Arianespace released their annual market survey, which
detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the
next decade.
Over short run, Arianespace expects to retain their dominant
position and sustain a majority share of the launch market. Of 54
international and commercial launches planned through 1995, Ariane
holds contracts for 31, General Dynamics' Atlas vehicle holds 14
contracts, McDonnell Douglas' Delta holds 7, and Great Wall's Long
March vehicle holds 2 launch contracts.
Three-quarters of future launch contracts for which Ariane can
compete are projected to come from communications satellites with
the remaining 25% split between weather, Earth observation, and
scientific satellites. Most of the future telecommunications demand
growth is predicted to come from the Asia/Pacific region.
Arianespace expects the current market consolidation of
individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will
continue, with these groups investing in heavier satellites with
larger communications payloads carrying more transponders.
Arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications
satellites should increase by 20 % over today's average level, to
about 3000 kg in GEO.
Demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain
strong over the next three years, but in the second half of the
decade, Arianespace predicts demand will decrease. Arianespace
bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder
demand and supply, particularly as new data compression techniques
appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing
or near-term transponders.
One of the significant possible changes in the market was
identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles, including Russian
launch systems. But Arianespace predicts that in the long term,
investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade
off between launch service quality and price, and that Russian and
other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities
and service quality, and their market penetration will be minimal.
[Commentary: Ariane releases their market surveys annually, and
I reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of CSN/STI.
Comparing the two surveys, there aren't outstanding differences in
the numbers. The most notable change is the consideration of new
data compression techniques, reducing the demand for new physical
transponders on orbit.
I note that in contrast to some predictions, demand for space-
based communications transponders appears to be remain strong. While
fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the
established point-to-point telecommunications markets, growing
demand for telecommunications services world wide and for point-to-
multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space
transponder demand. Fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability
service, but only from established point A to established point B.
To establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable
between the points, and while there are improved network solutions,
installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost
millions or billions of dollars.
For broadcast services where there is not an existing ground
network structure, satellites still offer the most cost effective
solution. And if new services are required into a new region, it is
cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of
thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite
network. This allows rapid growth of new satellite services, and
has kept demand high. The replacement market for fiberoptics is
growing as well, since as demand grows between the points serviced,
it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to
handle the increase in traffic.
Since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still
growing rapidly, satellite market projections remain rosy. But
satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes. Current
generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of
on-orbit service or more, in contrast to 10 years of service from
last generation's satellites. This has cut back some of the launch
demand, as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite
launches over longer intervals.
And as last note; Arianespace didn't flag it this year, but it
looks like the space transportation market will be rather over-
supplied by existing launch systems in the near term. The annual
commercial launch demand is for about 15-20 medium sized satellites
per year. From the supply side, Ariane is capable of launching up
to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year, Delta is capable of
about 9-12 per year, Atlas is capable of 6-12, Long March 4-8,
Japan's H-Vehicle 2-4, Russia's Proton capable of 8, and other
systems such as Zenit and Soyuz another 10-20 medium launches per
year. That's a lot of capability for a small market.
We can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial
launches.]
6- NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
The 9 Feb Pegasus launch by Orbital Sciences Corporation has
spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety
rules. A valid abort order from a NASA range safety officer to halt
the mission was overridden and the Pegasus was launched in violation
of range safety rules.
In the last few minutes of the Pegasus launch countdown, one of
two abort command receivers aboard the Pegasus failed. Such a failure
typically scrubs a launch,and a NASA range safety officer at
Wallops Island, VA issued a mission abort order about a minute
before the scheduled Pegasus launch. Somehow this command was
overridden by the OSC launch team or the message was lost in the
communications channels, and the Pegasus was launched despite the
valid abort call.
Fortunately, the Pegasus functioned as expected, and the abort
command receiver was not needed. But this incident did spark an
investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreed-to
launch constraint rules, and was not obeyed.
Leading the investigation is the National Transportation Safety
Board (NTSB) with support from NASA, OSC, and the Air Force. This
investigation marks the first time NTSB has taken the lead on an
incident involving a space launch. According to the NTSB, their
investigation will take about 6 months, and is primarily looking at
lines of authority, communications links and safety procedures used
in the launch.
[Commentary: This is the first time that the NTSB has led an
investigation into a space launch. Their leadership was requested
by the Department of Commerce's Office of Commercial Space
Transportation, who had licensed the commercial launch.
At the time of writing this column, some of the initial
investigations have been concluded, and some of the results are
starting to leak out into the trade press. Apparently, 3 or four
different communications channels were in use during the test. After
the abort destruct receiver stopped responding, the NASA test
director and range controller in the Mission Control room at Wallops
Island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch.
According to the mission rules, this should have stopped the launch.
Somehow, the OSC test conductor ordered the abort reversed, and the
NASA communicator on the net relayed that order to the B-52 carrying
the Pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch. Differing
explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed -- with the
best set being that clear lines of communications and clear
definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team, and
understanding of the mission rules were not established before the
launch.
As we see more and more commercial launches, more of these
procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved.
This case is interesting because it is the first time the NTSB has
been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem (as they
do with commercial aircraft problems).
I think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with
procedures and communications, and will be cleared up with issuance
of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how
specific lines of authority should be delineated.]
7- ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
Tsniimach Enterprise in Russia announced it is marketing a new
small space launch system, based upon converted ICBM components.
Two versions of the launcher are being marketed: the "Aerokosmos"
winged vehicle launched like the OSC Pegasus, and the "Severkosmos",
launched from a mobile ground transporter. The Aerokosmos is
projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to
an 800 km circular orbit, and the Severkosmos to be capable of 430
kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km. Also proposed to be used
with these launch systems is a LEO data relay system called
'Sineva'. Tsniimach Enterprise is described as a ex-military
establishment, focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of
spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the
Buran shuttle system, They are located near the NPO Energia
facility in Kaliningrad, outside of Moscow.
[Commentary: There's very little released information on this new
venture. My suspicion is it is another Russian enterprise looking
for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their in-house
knowledge of ex-Soviet launch systems. It adds to the list of numerous
commercial space startups announced from the ex-Soviet Union.
This one's a little different in that they are offering variants
of ex-Soviet ICBMs, but I can't identify any key customers being
targeted or substantial financial backing.]
8- GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
In late January, Georgia Tech Research Institute released the
results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial
rocket launching site in Camden County, Georgia at the old Kingsland
Missile Test Launching Site on the Atlantic coast. The preliminary
study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch
site, stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected
low investment returns, plus environmental and other geographic
considerations. However, the report did say the site might be ideal
for other aerospace uses, and recommended other potential uses.
[Commentary: This should put the nails in the coffin of the
Kingsland Commercial Launch Site. While other sites are still
proceeding with commercial launch site development plans, Kingsland
found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant, and if
substantial infrastructure had to be put in, then the expected
returns were too low to justify the cost of development.
This might point out some key discriminators in judging the
feasibility of a commercial launch site. These include:
- Is there an identified key customer to provide core usage
sufficient to recover setup costs?
- Is there a market advantage of using the site?
- Can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site?
- Can financing be found at low enough cost to support the
investment?
Other commercial launch site ventures -- including those at
Woomera, Poker Flat, Cape York, White Sands, Alabama Off-Shore
Platform, Hawaii, and Vandenberg have to also be judged against
these criteria. In my opinion, some of these ventures are flying
on hope and speculation, and not on sound financial grounds.]
9- SPAIN'S CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
In one of his last official acts, former President Bush
authorized space technology transfer for several joint space
ventures between US and other firms. One of these was a proposed
use of US technology by Spain to build a small booster. With that
regulatory impediment removed, the 3-stage Capricornia launch
vehicle will start development later this year, planning for a first
launch in the 1995/96 time period. The Capricornia is described as
a small 3-stage all solid booster designed to put 250-500 Kg into
LEO. Several launch sites are being examined for the system,
including 2 on the Iberian peninsula and 1 on the Canary Islands.
Originated by INTA in Spain, the project reports it has $ 30 M in
development funding, and will use technology from Argentina's Condor
launch vehicle as well as from the US.
[Commentary: Several firms have identified a market opportunity
in providing a small launcher for the European market. Small
payloads from European firms or organizations currently use either
Ariane piggyback launches or the US/Italian Scout launcher.
However, Ariane piggyback opportunities are limited, and the Scout
program is being phased out (accompanied by some disarray in the
Italian government and space industry regarding any follow-on
system).
This has left an apparent niche for a new European small launch
system. Surprisingly enough, ESA has not supported development of
such a system within the current space funding structure. Studies
have been performed by British Aerospace, Aerospatiale, Deutsche
Aerospace, and Italian organizations, but with the exception of the
Swedish/PacAstro system (reported below), I have not been able to
find any other European development work with even a rumor of
funding for hardware.
Also of interest is the linking of the Capricornia to the
Argentinian Condor launcher. There have been some interesting
rumors surfacing out of Argentina over the past year about a space
launcher/IRBM program funded under the military junta which ruled
the country in the 1970's and early 1980's.
What is known is in Feb 1992, the Argentinian Air Force formally
transferred control of the Condor 2 missile program to the new
civilian Argentinian national space agency (Comison Nacional de
Atividades Espaciales - CNAE). The Condor 2 program was described
as originating in 1983, expanding upon the smaller Condor 1 rocket
program in collaboration with Egypt and with support of German
firms. The Condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by Iraq
in the mid-1980's. Fairly large solid rocket motors were built and
tested, but Argentinan development of a suitable guidance package
lagged that of the propulsion system.
It should be noted CNAE is planning to launch its first
scientific satellite in late 1994. The US$ 9 M, 181 Kg, SAC-B
satellite will study the Earth's upper atmosphere and includes
cooperative experiments from Italy and the US. No launch vehicle has
yet been selected, but OSC's Pegasus and the Russian Burlak Air
launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this
contract.]
10- PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
PacAstro, a small launch firm in Herndon, Virginia announced in
late February it had received a $6 M launch reservation contract
from the Swedish Space Corp to launch a satellite on PacAstro's PA-2
launch vehicle. This will be performed as part of the Polar
Satellite Service (PSS), a joint Norwegian Space Center/ Swedish
Space Corp. program to upgrade the Andoya Rocket Range in Norway and
offering small satellite launches into the polar regions. According
to PacAstro, PSS is also performing an $8 M upgrade of the Andoya
launch facilities, including a new integration facility and a fully-
enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like
the PacAstro PA-2. PacAstro has been chosen as "the main
alternative rocket supplier" for the small satellite launch service
to be offered by PSS from Andoya. The date of the launch of the
Swedish satellite was not specified.
[Commentary: PacAstro has been trying to line up customers and
funding for their launch vehicle for some time now. The PA-2 is a
small, two stage rocket fueled by RP-1 and Liquid Oxygen. From
PacAstro's literature, the engines designed for the PA-series
rockets are built of "off the shelf" components based upon the Lunar
MOdule Descent Engines built by TRW, and are capable of putting a
225 Kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit.
PacAstro is trying to arrange construction financing for its
first three PA-2 vehicles, with a first launch planned for 1995, and
2 orbital launches planned for 1996. My records show PacAstro hired
TRW to provide marketing support and systems design, with primary
engineering to be done by AeroAstro, a small satellite builder
closely associated with PacAstro (headquartered in the same
building). The Swedish Space Corporation would supply engineering,
launch operations, vehicle subsystems, and marketing support.
Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo, is a first round investor and sits on the
board of directors.
PacAstro has gotten a first round financial package of at least
$550 K (Some sources place this of high as $1 M), but has been
searching for about a year for the additional $20-30 M needed to
design, build and launch their first set of vehicles.
The launch reservation from SSC can possibly be used to help
bring some investors on board, but by my estimate, they will need
much more than the single $6 M sale to put their venture into real
hardware.]
11- CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
In early March, it was reported a joint satellite communications
venture between a Taiwanese and mainland Chinese was in the works.
As reported in the Taipei press, China Development Corp. (CDC),
headquartered in Taiwam and with links to the ruling Nationalist
Party, is planning to set up a joint venture in Hong Kong with China
Great Wall Industry Corp. with the objective of launching a regional
communications satellite. CDC would cover about 10% of the satellite
system cost (US $10 M) in exchange for rights to 10% of the
satellite's communications channels.
[Commentary: This announcement came close on the heels of the
release of Taiwanese plans for space development (released in mid
January). In those plans, the National Space Program Office of
Taiwan will launch 3 satellites, starting with ROCSAT-1, a 400 Kg
scientific spacecraft, planned for launch in 1997. Two additional
satellites are planned, both communications satellites. TRW has
been helping Taiwan plan this program, budgeted at T$13.6 B (US $530
M) through 2006.
I haven't been able to establish any relationship between this
venture and those of the NSPOT, but there might be a connection.
While Taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures, the
current Taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two
separate sastellite ventures.
The reported name for the Tiawanese/Chinese system is "Asiasat-
2", but I don't thinks this has any relationship with the existing
Hong Kong-based "Asiasat" program involving Chinese, Hong Kong, and
other Asian investors, other than using it as an organizational
model. There are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing
venture -- it could provide excellent first-hand experience to
Taiwan for a very low cost, which then can be used in later
satellite ventures. But there are internal political issues between
Taiwanese and Chinese ventures, but putting any joint venture
through a Hong Kong intermediary corporation might allow it to
proceed.
In any case, the East Asian satellite market is lighting up with
substantially growth projected in space services and revenues. This
is just another indicator to add to the list.]
12- SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
South Korea's Trade, Industry and Resources Ministry recently
announced plans to invest US$22 B in research and development and
another US$17 B into manufacturing and research facilities for
advanced aerospace technologies. Space technologies have been
specifically targeted as part of this program, beginning with
manufacture and launch of an advanced multi-purpose satellite by
1997. The objective of this investment is to raise South Korea's
aerospace technology to the level of the world's top 10 countries by
2000.
[Commentary: South Korea has been quietly working to develop its
national aerospace industry, specifically including space
activities. I'm noting this as a flag that potential new players are
coming into the commercial space market.
As part of their national effort, 2 national telecommunications
satellites for Korea Telecom will be launched in April and Oct 1995
on Delta. Designated Koreasat 1 and 2, the platforms will provide
television and telephone service throughout the Korean Peninsula,
southwestern Japan and portions of China bordering North Korea.
South Korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on
Ariane in Aug 1992, called Uribyol-1 (Our Star) and costing about US
$8.8 M. Uribyol-2 is planned for piggyback launch in October of
this year, again on Ariane, and will be entirely "made in Korea."
Uribyol-3, projected for a 1995 launch, will be an environment-
monitoring micro-satellite.
This satellite may be the precursor to a series of small Earth
observation satellites, The KEOS (Korean Earth Observation System)
project, which has been submitted for approval to the South Korean
government, would use two or three 300-kg spacecraft equipped with
optical and microwave sensors.
South Korean press reports claim there is also a parallel
military effort to establish the capabilities for building and
launching small military satellites by 2001. Supposedly a
government panel had been established to oversee such an effort,
funded at US $ 500 M between 1993 and 2001, in anticipation of an
expected pullout of U.S. intelligence-gathering systems from the
Korean peninsula.
In conjunction with all of these reported efforts, South Korean
is also pursuing production work either as off-sets to existing
aerospace technology contracts (for example, McDonnell Douglas is
offsetting production of some Delta parts to South Korean firms as
part of the Koreasat launch contracts), or for production of
consumer space items (among other products, South Korea exports
satellite receiver television setups to Japan, and Samsung has
announced teaming for production of OSC's Orbcomm user terminals.).
This looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies.
Considering that East Asia is currently the fastest growing sector
for commercial space services (primarily for telecommunications), a
South Korean push into space technologies may change the composition
of commercial space market there over the next decade.]
13- SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
As announced in the last CSN/STI, each issue will give the
results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and
investments. The table below summarizes results to the end of
March. The Space Technology Index did quite a bit better than the
market as a whole, as represented by the S&P 500 index. Since 90+%
of the values included in the index are US firms, this represents a
general increase in the market value of space-related firms. The
increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992 -- which
is a very promising sign, although future months may reverse this
trend. The Commercial Space Technology Index has also done quite
well, but the Pure Play portfolio -- consisting of stocks of firms
which are pure plays in space technologies -- has also surpassed its
results in all of 1993. We'll keep an eye on these ....
INDEX RESULTS THROUGH MARCH
Beginning Beginning 1 Jan 93 to
1992 1993 31 Mar 1993
------- -------- --------
S&P 500 416 436 (+4.7%) 452 (+3.7%)
Space Tech Index 267 304 (+13.6%) 373 (+22.7%)
Comm'l Space Tech Index 167 194 (+16.3%) 222 (+14.2%)
Space Tech Pure Plays 147 169 (+15.4%) 197 (+16.2%)
FINAL NOTES -
What? This column's already full? And I still have bunches of
commercial space developments to report on. As I said at the start
of this, column there's been a lot of interesting happenings - but
I'll have to put them into the next issue.
Looking ahead, I've got several articles in the works on new
happenings with Iridium and the LEO communications satellite market,
more news on international launchers appearing (and disappearing) on
the market, new international commercial space ventures, and other
interesting developments.
And as always, I hope you folks find this stuff useful and
interesting -- Any and all comments are welcome.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
"Felicitas multos habet amicos" P.O. Box 2452
Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452
after prepro From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Commercial Space News 22
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 666
COMMERCIAL SPACE NEWSSPACE TECHNOLOGY INVESTOR NUMBER 22
This is number twentytwo in an irregular series on commercial
space activities The commentaries included are my thoughts on
these developments
Sigh as usual Ive gotten behind in getting this column
written I can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in
the space biz This column is put together at lunch hour and after
the house quiets down at night so data can quickly build up if
theres a lot of other stuff going on Ive complied a lot of
information and happenings since the last column so Im going to
have to work to keep this one down to a readable length Have fun
CONTENTS
1 US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
2 DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
3 COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC GOAHEAD
4 INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GDS SPACE BIZ STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT
5 ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
6 NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
7 ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
8 GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
9 SPAINS CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
10 PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
11 CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
12 SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
13 SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
FINAL NOTES
ARTICLES
1 US COMMERCIAL SPACE SALES FLATTEN IN 1993
The US Department of Commerce projects US commercial space sales
will remain flat in 1993 with current data showing only a 2 percent
growth over 1992 As published in US Industrial Outlook 1993
which was released in January revenues from the 1993 US space
business are currently projected to be about 4890 M
In contrast to previous years when US commercial space sales had
shown double digits growth rates this years projected results are
driven by the US satellite manufacturing industry where sales are
projected to drop from 12 satellites worth 1300 M in 1992 to 7
satellites worth 670 M in 1993 The US Industrial Outlook also
projects US commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year
and while predicting that 1993 revenues will increase 10 percent to
450 M future sales will be adversely affected by the downward
revision in Department of Defense launch plans
Offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries
revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to
increase to 1900 M primarily driven by increased revenues from
broadcast and cable TV networks Similarly remote sensing products
and sales are projected to increase to 250 M in 1993 up 15
US COMMERCIAL SPACE REVENUES 1989 1990 1991 1992r 1993e
Commercial satellites 900 1000 1100 1300 670
Satellite services 750 800 1200 1500 1900
Fixed 700 73511151275 1520
Mobile 50 65 85 225 380
Satellite ground equip 790 860 1350 1400 1560
Mobile equipment 40 85 280 352
Commercial launches 150 570 380 450 450
Remote sensing data and services 125 155 190 215 250
Private microgravity research lab 60
TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUES 2715 3385 4220 4815 4890
r revised data for 1992 e estimated data for 1993
[Commentary This is the first look at how the US commercial
space industry is expected to do in 1993 In general not a bad
report with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite
manufacturing area There changes of only a few satellites worth
100 M or so apiece can substantially influence the annual
projection If we look forward over several years this market
sector should retain strong sales as US firms have been very
successful in regaining international market share in the satellite
business
Furthermore sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in
the next revision of this data expected to be released about mid
year Data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales including
such items as GPS receivers and portable satellite terminals
appears to be missing from the January data set DoC usually
publishes a listing of Space Business Indicators in midyear and
the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released
then I expect the revised revenues should easily top 5000 M if
the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the
numbers and the year should show about a 10 overall market growth
Looking beyond this years data future markets look quite
promising The DoC projects satellite service revenues could top
3000 M by 1995 if new mobile satellite services and direct
broadcasting are implemented as planned and that mobile satellite
station sales are expected to continue to growth at 1520 per year
through the mid 1990s My numbers are somewhat more pessimistic
for nearterm market growth but I agree the trend should be for
substantial growth in US commercial space sales over at least the
next 510 years My pessimism is due to more conservative
assumptions on market capture and growth in LEO communications and
satellite direct broadcasting services I dont believe all of the
current players in the yettobeborn LEO communications satellite
market and in the yettobeproven direct broadcasting market will
be financial successes nor that sales growth will be as explosive
as currently projected
It should also be noted this years DoC data is the first
release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research
facilities The 60 M shown in the Janurary data is primarily for
the Spacehab module planned for launch in April on the Space
Shuttle but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first
sales from the COMET orbital launch and recovery experiment module]
2 DELTA WINS TWO KEY LAUNCH CONTRACTS
McDonnell Douglas Corporation which builds and markets the Delta
launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts Motorola
Inc announced in mid February that it had selected the Delta to
launch most of the satellites in the 66satellite Iridium LEO
communications constellation and in mid April McDonnell Douglas
was awarded the USAF Medium Launch Vehicle III contract
The launch services contract with Motorola for the Iridium
constellation launch is for at launch of least 45 Iridium
satellites Another 21 satellites have been contracted to be
launched by Khrunichev Enterprise in Russian on 3 Proton vehicle
launches These 45 satellites planned for the Delta will be
launched 5 at a time providing for at least 9 launches
Additional satellites in the Iridium constellation such as a
planned onorbit spares may also be launched on Delta Although
details of the launch services contract were reported to be
negotiation and not yet final
The USAF MLV contract also went to MDC bidding a variant of
their Delta II launcher This contract is only initially worth 75
million but establishes a set of launch options for up to 36
launches encompassing launches from 1996 through 2002 These
launches will deploy the next generation of the USAFs Global
Positioning System Block IIR navigation satellites plus other
programs First option for to meet the USAF launch options is
expected to be exercised this year after which the USAF is expected
to request launches of up to 6 Deltas per year for at least 6 years
Under this contract the USAF can also request launch on demand
services from MDC for the 19962002 time period with a launch to
occur within 40 days of the request
[Commentary If these two contracts are fulfilled they should
provide an excellent business base for MDCs Delta launch program
through the turn of the century Combined these two contracts have
a potential for about 45 launches worth about 2200 M to MDC and
sustaining a core business base of 300400 Myear Other contracts
for international and commercial payloads as well as for NASA
Medium ELVclass payloads will add to this business base keeping
MDC as a viable commerical launch company
However it should be noted there are risk elements in these
contracts Motorolas Iridium LEO communications constellation has
not yet received a US Federal Communications Commission license for
operation in the US nor has Motorola lined up all the financing
and financial partners for the Iridium venture Without these
approvals or financial backing there will be no Iridium launches
But hopefully these uncertainties will be settled this year
Similarly the USAF MLV III program has been the target of
several Congressional actions which have slowed the production of
the GPS Block IIR satellites and deleted the funding for the MLV III
program in favor of the USAF NLSSpacelifter program At this
time while it appears the MLV III contract will be executed future
funding for the MLV III and other USAF commercial launch contracts
is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy
reviews Some opinions expressed from within the Administration and
Congress propose cancellation of all ELV upgrade programs
including the MLV programs in favor of the proposed Spacelifter
program Such opinions may have some weight in this years budget
deliberations particularly as DoD funds will be more difficult to
find in the shrinking US Defense budget]
3 COMMERCIAL REMOTE SENSING VENTURE GETS DOC GOAHEAD
The first commercial license to operate a remote sensing
satellite was approved in early February by the US Department of
Commerces Office of Space Commerce A license was granted to
WorldView Imaging Corporation of Oakland California to build and
operate a pair of LEO imaging satellites to provide multispectral
images of the Earth
[Commentary There has been little data released on this venture
by WorldView and the DoC other than the announcement of the
operating and construction license This was reported to be at the
request of WorldView Most industry speculation identifies this new
venture as a Star Wars spinoff using SDItype technology to
provide digital Earth sensing data and heavily integrated into
digital GIS databases for remote sensingGIS users Most probable
customers for this service include exploration geologists
agricultural planners and urban planners
It is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the
1992 Land Remote Sensing Policy Act The Act as passed last
November provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote
sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices Prior to
this act remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to
all users at the same prices and private remote sensing ventures
would have had to sell at the governmentset Landsat data prices
There are rumors of several other potential commercial remote
sensing ventures working their way through the system at different
stages of development I think the large Landsat and SPOT satellite
systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing
data market for the next decade or so In contrast to these large
governmentsponsored remote sensing systems smaller market ventures
such as WorldView and others can exploit market niches and use
innovative technology and I believe can find profitability on the
margin I predict there may be some very interesting ventures
appearing in the next year or so]
4 INVESTMENT FIRM CALLS GDS SPACE BIZ STILL A GOOD INVESTMENT
Wall Street investment house Morgan Stanley thinks General
Dynamics Space Systems Division could still be a moneymaker
despite having failed in the last 3 Atlas launches In a recent
analysts report Morgan Stanley said We are more than ever
convinced that if the company can return the Atlas to its historical
95plus success rate this will become a highly profitable cash
generating unit Based upon discussions with GDs corporate
management Morgan Stanley projects that if the Atlas problems are
cleared up the unit could see 70 M in earnings per year by 1995 and
100 M per year by 2000 This is based upon GDs projection of
capturing about 10 Atlas launches per year on the world market
[Commentary Three failures in a row of their launch system has
hurt General Dynamics Space Systems Division Since GD has
restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses
many market pundits have been speculating GDs space business might
be next to be sold The Morgan Stanley report indicates GDs Space
Systems Division has some potential as a moneymaker despite current
problems if they can get their act together Sales are projected
to be about 560 M in 1993 which will probably generate a loss of
about 25 M If GD can capture their projected share of the space
launch market and if they have managed to clean up the reliability
of their Atlas launchers then they could generate healthy profits
from those sales But until they demonstrate the Atlas Centaur
program is back on track this division will continue to show
substantial losses
In response to the selloff rumors in my opinion this operation
is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability
To do such a takeover the current set corporate and divisional
management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm
In GD SSDs case to get the division back on track the management
team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with
the Atlas Centaur as well as in selling Atlas services This would
indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch
operations could find such talent inhouse and be able to convince
customers to buy their launch services Optimally the firm would
have substantial liquid rocket experience and experience in
marketing space technology internationally as well Candidates for
this might be TRW Rockwell Lockheed and Martin and possibly
McDonnell Douglas and Boeing But most of those firms have cash
flow problems MDC have had a substantial business contraction
Boeing and MDC are involved with other launch firms Lockheed
or have taken on substantial debt Martin And coming up with the
7001500 M purchase price for the division is a big chunk of
change for any company]
5 ARIANE PREDICTS DIP IN LAUNCH DEMAND
Arianespace the operator of the Ariane launch system is
projecting a dip in launch demand in the late 1990s In early
February Arianespace released their annual market survey which
detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the
next decade
Over short run Arianespace expects to retain their dominant
position and sustain a majority share of the launch market Of 54
international and commercial launches planned through 1995 Ariane
holds contracts for 31 General Dynamics Atlas vehicle holds 14
contracts McDonnell Douglas Delta holds 7 and Great Walls Long
March vehicle holds 2 launch contracts
Threequarters of future launch contracts for which Ariane can
compete are projected to come from communications satellites with
the remaining 25 split between weather Earth observation and
scientific satellites Most of the future telecommunications demand
growth is predicted to come from the AsiaPacific region
Arianespace expects the current market consolidation of
individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will
continue with these groups investing in heavier satellites with
larger communications payloads carrying more transponders
Arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications
satellites should increase by 20 over todays average level to
about 3000 kg in GEO
Demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain
strong over the next three years but in the second half of the
decade Arianespace predicts demand will decrease Arianespace
bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder
demand and supply particularly as new data compression techniques
appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing
or nearterm transponders
One of the significant possible changes in the market was
identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles including Russian
launch systems But Arianespace predicts that in the long term
investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade
off between launch service quality and price and that Russian and
other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities
and service quality and their market penetration will be minimal
[Commentary Ariane releases their market surveys annually and
I reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of CSNSTI
Comparing the two surveys there arent outstanding differences in
the numbers The most notable change is the consideration of new
data compression techniques reducing the demand for new physical
transponders on orbit
I note that in contrast to some predictions demand for space
based communications transponders appears to be remain strong While
fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the
established pointtopoint telecommunications markets growing
demand for telecommunications services world wide and for pointto
multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space
transponder demand Fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability
service but only from established point A to established point B
To establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable
between the points and while there are improved network solutions
installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost
millions or billions of dollars
For broadcast services where there is not an existing ground
network structure satellites still offer the most cost effective
solution And if new services are required into a new region it is
cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of
thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite
network This allows rapid growth of new satellite services and
has kept demand high The replacement market for fiberoptics is
growing as well since as demand grows between the points serviced
it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to
handle the increase in traffic
Since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still
growing rapidly satellite market projections remain rosy But
satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes Current
generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at 15 years of
onorbit service or more in contrast to 10 years of service from
last generations satellites This has cut back some of the launch
demand as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite
launches over longer intervals
And as last note Arianespace didnt flag it this year but it
looks like the space transportation market will be rather over
supplied by existing launch systems in the near term The annual
commercial launch demand is for about 1520 medium sized satellites
per year From the supply side Ariane is capable of launching up
to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year Delta is capable of
about 912 per year Atlas is capable of 612 Long March 48
Japans HVehicle 24 Russias Proton capable of 8 and other
systems such as Zenit and Soyuz another 1020 medium launches per
year Thats a lot of capability for a small market
We can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial
launches]
6 NTSB INVESTIGATES PEGASUS LAUNCH OVER ABORTED ABORT
The 9 Feb Pegasus launch by Orbital Sciences Corporation has
spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety
rules A valid abort order from a NASA range safety officer to halt
the mission was overridden and the Pegasus was launched in violation
of range safety rules
In the last few minutes of the Pegasus launch countdown one of
two abort command receivers aboard the Pegasus failed Such a failure
typically scrubs a launchand a NASA range safety officer at
Wallops Island VA issued a mission abort order about a minute
before the scheduled Pegasus launch Somehow this command was
overridden by the OSC launch team or the message was lost in the
communications channels and the Pegasus was launched despite the
valid abort call
Fortunately the Pegasus functioned as expected and the abort
command receiver was not needed But this incident did spark an
investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreedto
launch constraint rules and was not obeyed
Leading the investigation is the National Transportation Safety
Board NTSB with support from NASA OSC and the Air Force This
investigation marks the first time NTSB has taken the lead on an
incident involving a space launch According to the NTSB their
investigation will take about 6 months and is primarily looking at
lines of authority communications links and safety procedures used
in the launch
[Commentary This is the first time that the NTSB has led an
investigation into a space launch Their leadership was requested
by the Department of Commerces Office of Commercial Space
Transportation who had licensed the commercial launch
At the time of writing this column some of the initial
investigations have been concluded and some of the results are
starting to leak out into the trade press Apparently 3 or four
different communications channels were in use during the test After
the abort destruct receiver stopped responding the NASA test
director and range controller in the Mission Control room at Wallops
Island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch
According to the mission rules this should have stopped the launch
Somehow the OSC test conductor ordered the abort reversed and the
NASA communicator on the net relayed that order to the B52 carrying
the Pegasus at about 22 seconds before launch Differing
explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed with the
best set being that clear lines of communications and clear
definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team and
understanding of the mission rules were not established before the
launch
As we see more and more commercial launches more of these
procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved
This case is interesting because it is the first time the NTSB has
been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem as they
do with commercial aircraft problems
I think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with
procedures and communications and will be cleared up with issuance
of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how
specific lines of authority should be delineated]
7 ANOTHER PEGASUS COMPETITOR IS ANNOUNCED
Tsniimach Enterprise in Russia announced it is marketing a new
small space launch system based upon converted ICBM components
Two versions of the launcher are being marketed the Aerokosmos
winged vehicle launched like the OSC Pegasus and the Severkosmos
launched from a mobile ground transporter The Aerokosmos is
projected to deliver 900 kg to a 200 km circular orbit or 580 kg to
an 800 km circular orbit and the Severkosmos to be capable of 430
kg to 200 km orbits and 225 kg to 800 km Also proposed to be used
with these launch systems is a LEO data relay system called
Sineva Tsniimach Enterprise is described as a exmilitary
establishment focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of
spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the
Buran shuttle system They are located near the NPO Energia
facility in Kaliningrad outside of Moscow
[Commentary Theres very little released information on this new
venture My suspicion is it is another Russian enterprise looking
for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their inhouse
knowledge of exSoviet launch systems It adds to the list of numerous
commercial space startups announced from the exSoviet Union
This ones a little different in that they are offering variants
of exSoviet ICBMs but I cant identify any key customers being
targeted or substantial financial backing]
8 GEORGIA LAUNCH SITE DROPPED FROM PLANNING
In late January Georgia Tech Research Institute released the
results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial
rocket launching site in Camden County Georgia at the old Kingsland
Missile Test Launching Site on the Atlantic coast The preliminary
study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch
site stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected
low investment returns plus environmental and other geographic
considerations However the report did say the site might be ideal
for other aerospace uses and recommended other potential uses
[Commentary This should put the nails in the coffin of the
Kingsland Commercial Launch Site While other sites are still
proceeding with commercial launch site development plans Kingsland
found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant and if
substantial infrastructure had to be put in then the expected
returns were too low to justify the cost of development
This might point out some key discriminators in judging the
feasibility of a commercial launch site These include
Is there an identified key customer to provide core usage
sufficient to recover setup costs
Is there a market advantage of using the site
Can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site
Can financing be found at low enough cost to support the
investment
Other commercial launch site ventures including those at
Woomera Poker Flat Cape York White Sands Alabama OffShore
Platform Hawaii and Vandenberg have to also be judged against
these criteria In my opinion some of these ventures are flying
on hope and speculation and not on sound financial grounds]
9 SPAINS CAPRICORNIA LAUNCHER STILL PROCEEDING
In one of his last official acts former President Bush
authorized space technology transfer for several joint space
ventures between US and other firms One of these was a proposed
use of US technology by Spain to build a small booster With that
regulatory impediment removed the 3stage Capricornia launch
vehicle will start development later this year planning for a first
launch in the 199596 time period The Capricornia is described as
a small 3stage all solid booster designed to put 250500 Kg into
LEO Several launch sites are being examined for the system
including 2 on the Iberian peninsula and 1 on the Canary Islands
Originated by INTA in Spain the project reports it has 30 M in
development funding and will use technology from Argentinas Condor
launch vehicle as well as from the US
[Commentary Several firms have identified a market opportunity
in providing a small launcher for the European market Small
payloads from European firms or organizations currently use either
Ariane piggyback launches or the USItalian Scout launcher
However Ariane piggyback opportunities are limited and the Scout
program is being phased out accompanied by some disarray in the
Italian government and space industry regarding any followon
system
This has left an apparent niche for a new European small launch
system Surprisingly enough ESA has not supported development of
such a system within the current space funding structure Studies
have been performed by British Aerospace Aerospatiale Deutsche
Aerospace and Italian organizations but with the exception of the
SwedishPacAstro system reported below I have not been able to
find any other European development work with even a rumor of
funding for hardware
Also of interest is the linking of the Capricornia to the
Argentinian Condor launcher There have been some interesting
rumors surfacing out of Argentina over the past year about a space
launcherIRBM program funded under the military junta which ruled
the country in the 1970s and early 1980s
What is known is in Feb 1992 the Argentinian Air Force formally
transferred control of the Condor 2 missile program to the new
civilian Argentinian national space agency Comison Nacional de
Atividades Espaciales CNAE The Condor 2 program was described
as originating in 1983 expanding upon the smaller Condor 1 rocket
program in collaboration with Egypt and with support of German
firms The Condor 2 was also reportedly funded indirectly by Iraq
in the mid1980s Fairly large solid rocket motors were built and
tested but Argentinan development of a suitable guidance package
lagged that of the propulsion system
It should be noted CNAE is planning to launch its first
scientific satellite in late 1994 The US 9 M 181 Kg SACB
satellite will study the Earths upper atmosphere and includes
cooperative experiments from Italy and the US No launch vehicle has
yet been selected but OSCs Pegasus and the Russian Burlak Air
launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this
contract]
10 PACASTRO SIGNS LAUNCH RESERVATION WITH SWEDISH SPACE CORP
PacAstro a small launch firm in Herndon Virginia announced in
late February it had received a 6 M launch reservation contract
from the Swedish Space Corp to launch a satellite on PacAstros PA2
launch vehicle This will be performed as part of the Polar
Satellite Service PSS a joint Norwegian Space Center Swedish
Space Corp program to upgrade the Andoya Rocket Range in Norway and
offering small satellite launches into the polar regions According
to PacAstro PSS is also performing an 8 M upgrade of the Andoya
launch facilities including a new integration facility and a fully
enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like
the PacAstro PA2 PacAstro has been chosen as the main
alternative rocket supplier for the small satellite launch service
to be offered by PSS from Andoya The date of the launch of the
Swedish satellite was not specified
[Commentary PacAstro has been trying to line up customers and
funding for their launch vehicle for some time now The PA2 is a
small two stage rocket fueled by RP1 and Liquid Oxygen From
PacAstros literature the engines designed for the PAseries
rockets are built of off the shelf components based upon the Lunar
MOdule Descent Engines built by TRW and are capable of putting a
225 Kg satellite into a 750 km circular polar orbit
PacAstro is trying to arrange construction financing for its
first three PA2 vehicles with a first launch planned for 1995 and
2 orbital launches planned for 1996 My records show PacAstro hired
TRW to provide marketing support and systems design with primary
engineering to be done by AeroAstro a small satellite builder
closely associated with PacAstro headquartered in the same
building The Swedish Space Corporation would supply engineering
launch operations vehicle subsystems and marketing support
Sumitomo Corp of Tokyo is a first round investor and sits on the
board of directors
PacAstro has gotten a first round financial package of at least
550 K Some sources place this of high as 1 M but has been
searching for about a year for the additional 2030 M needed to
design build and launch their first set of vehicles
The launch reservation from SSC can possibly be used to help
bring some investors on board but by my estimate they will need
much more than the single 6 M sale to put their venture into real
hardware]
11 CHINA AND TAIWAN JOINT SATELLITE VENTURE REPORTED
In early March it was reported a joint satellite communications
venture between a Taiwanese and mainland Chinese was in the works
As reported in the Taipei press China Development Corp CDC
headquartered in Taiwam and with links to the ruling Nationalist
Party is planning to set up a joint venture in Hong Kong with China
Great Wall Industry Corp with the objective of launching a regional
communications satellite CDC would cover about 10 of the satellite
system cost US 10 M in exchange for rights to 10 of the
satellites communications channels
[Commentary This announcement came close on the heels of the
release of Taiwanese plans for space development released in mid
January In those plans the National Space Program Office of
Taiwan will launch 3 satellites starting with ROCSAT1 a 400 Kg
scientific spacecraft planned for launch in 1997 Two additional
satellites are planned both communications satellites TRW has
been helping Taiwan plan this program budgeted at T136 B US 530
M through 2006
I havent been able to establish any relationship between this
venture and those of the NSPOT but there might be a connection
While Taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures the
current Taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two
separate sastellite ventures
The reported name for the TiawaneseChinese system is Asiasat
2 but I dont thinks this has any relationship with the existing
Hong Kongbased Asiasat program involving Chinese Hong Kong and
other Asian investors other than using it as an organizational
model There are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing
venture it could provide excellent firsthand experience to
Taiwan for a very low cost which then can be used in later
satellite ventures But there are internal political issues between
Taiwanese and Chinese ventures but putting any joint venture
through a Hong Kong intermediary corporation might allow it to
proceed
In any case the East Asian satellite market is lighting up with
substantially growth projected in space services and revenues This
is just another indicator to add to the list]
12 SOUTH KOREA ANNOUNCES NATIONAL MOVE INTO SPACE TECHNOLOGIES
South Koreas Trade Industry and Resources Ministry recently
announced plans to invest US22 B in research and development and
another US17 B into manufacturing and research facilities for
advanced aerospace technologies Space technologies have been
specifically targeted as part of this program beginning with
manufacture and launch of an advanced multipurpose satellite by
1997 The objective of this investment is to raise South Koreas
aerospace technology to the level of the worlds top 10 countries by
2000
[Commentary South Korea has been quietly working to develop its
national aerospace industry specifically including space
activities Im noting this as a flag that potential new players are
coming into the commercial space market
As part of their national effort 2 national telecommunications
satellites for Korea Telecom will be launched in April and Oct 1995
on Delta Designated Koreasat 1 and 2 the platforms will provide
television and telephone service throughout the Korean Peninsula
southwestern Japan and portions of China bordering North Korea
South Korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on
Ariane in Aug 1992 called Uribyol1 Our Star and costing about US
88 M Uribyol2 is planned for piggyback launch in October of
this year again on Ariane and will be entirely made in Korea
Uribyol3 projected for a 1995 launch will be an environment
monitoring microsatellite
This satellite may be the precursor to a series of small Earth
observation satellites The KEOS Korean Earth Observation System
project which has been submitted for approval to the South Korean
government would use two or three 300kg spacecraft equipped with
optical and microwave sensors
South Korean press reports claim there is also a parallel
military effort to establish the capabilities for building and
launching small military satellites by 2001 Supposedly a
government panel had been established to oversee such an effort
funded at US 500 M between 1993 and 2001 in anticipation of an
expected pullout of US intelligencegathering systems from the
Korean peninsula
In conjunction with all of these reported efforts South Korean
is also pursuing production work either as offsets to existing
aerospace technology contracts for example McDonnell Douglas is
offsetting production of some Delta parts to South Korean firms as
part of the Koreasat launch contracts or for production of
consumer space items among other products South Korea exports
satellite receiver television setups to Japan and Samsung has
announced teaming for production of OSCs Orbcomm user terminals
This looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies
Considering that East Asia is currently the fastest growing sector
for commercial space services primarily for telecommunications a
South Korean push into space technologies may change the composition
of commercial space market there over the next decade]
13 SPACE TECHNOLOGY INDEXES THROUGH MARCH
As announced in the last CSNSTI each issue will give the
results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and
investments The table below summarizes results to the end of
March The Space Technology Index did quite a bit better than the
market as a whole as represented by the SP 500 index Since 90
of the values included in the index are US firms this represents a
general increase in the market value of spacerelated firms The
increase in the first quarter is more than in all of 1992 which
is a very promising sign although future months may reverse this
trend The Commercial Space Technology Index has also done quite
well but the Pure Play portfolio consisting of stocks of firms
which are pure plays in space technologies has also surpassed its
results in all of 1993 Well keep an eye on these
INDEX RESULTS THROUGH MARCH
Beginning Beginning 1 Jan 93 to
1992 1993 31 Mar 1993
SP 500 416 436 47 452 37
Space Tech Index 267 304 136 373 227
Comml Space Tech Index 167 194 163 222 142
Space Tech Pure Plays 147 169 154 197 162
FINAL NOTES
What This columns already full And I still have bunches of
commercial space developments to report on As I said at the start
of this column theres been a lot of interesting happenings but
Ill have to put them into the next issue
Looking ahead Ive got several articles in the works on new
happenings with Iridium and the LEO communications satellite market
more news on international launchers appearing and disappearing on
the market new international commercial space ventures and other
interesting developments
And as always I hope you folks find this stuff useful and
interesting Any and all comments are welcome
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
Felicitas multos habet amicos PO Box 2452
Seal Beach CA 907401452
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>instead. The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>Why wait until they commit the crime? Why not implant such devices in
>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning. You are proposing to punish people
*before* they commit a crime? What justification do you have for this?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re writes
Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists
Sorry I dont follow your reasoning You are proposing to punish people
before they commit a crime What justification do you have for this
keith
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 30
In article <healta.136.734813153@saturn.wwc.edu>
healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
(Deletion)
>You also said,"Why did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did? Seems a
>pretty sick way of going about creating a universe..."
>
>I'm gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson--forgive me, I used
>to be a theology major.
>First of all, I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle--
>"the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan" (i borrowed a book title).
>God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
>decisions.
(Deletion)
An universe it has created. By the way, can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of one's own creatures do what it likes to others?
By your definitions, your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen - including every choice of Satan.
Can you explain us what Free Will is, and how it goes along with omniscience?
Didn't your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world? Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them? That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power, something your god introduced according to your description?
By the way, are you sure that you have read the FAQ? Especially the part
about preaching?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 30
In article
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
Deletion
You also saidWhy did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did Seems a
pretty sick way of going about creating a universe
Im gonna respond by giving a small theology lessonforgive me I used
to be a theology major
First of all I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle
the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan i borrowed a book title
God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
decisions
Deletion
An universe it has created By the way can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of ones own creatures do what it likes to others
By your definitions your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen including every choice of Satan
Can you explain us what Free Will is and how it goes along with omniscience
Didnt your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description
By the way are you sure that you have read the FAQ Especially the part
about preaching
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 9
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
Does anyone know more about this? How much, to attend????
Anyone want to go?
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 9
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
Does anyone know more about this How much to attend
Anyone want to go
pat
preprocess doc From: thomsonal@cpva.saic.com
Subject: Cosmos 2238: an EORSAT
Article-I.D.: cpva.15337.2bc16ada
Organization: Science Applications Int'l Corp./San Diego
Lines: 48
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 15:40:47 GMT
>I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment (1993-
>018B) as possible. Both its purpose, launch date, location, in short,
>EVERYTHING! Can you help?
>-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ocean Reconnaissance Launch Surprises West
Space News, April 5-11, 1993, p.2
[Excerpts]
Russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months
March 30, confounding Western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead.
The Itar-TASS news agency announced the launch of Cosmos 2238 from
Plesetsk Cosmodrome, but provided little description of the payload's mission.
However, based on the satellite's trajectory, Western observers
identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic
emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement.
Geoff Perry of the Kettering Group in England... [said] Western
observers had concluded that no more would be launched. But days after the
last [such] satellite re-entered the Earth's atmosphere, Cosmos 2238 was
launched.
"Cosmos-2238" Satellite Launched for Defense Ministry
Moscow ITAR-TASS World Service in Russian 1238 GMT 30 March 1993
Translated in FBIS-SOV-93-060, p.27
by ITAR-TASS correspondent Veronika Romanenkova
Moscow, 30 March -- The Cosmos-2238 satellite was launched at 1600 Moscow
time today from the Baykonur by a "Tsiklon-M" carrier rocket. An ITAR-TASS
correspondent was told at the press center of Russia's space-military forces
that the satellite was launched in the interests of the Russian Defense
Ministry.
Parameters Given
Moscow ITAR-TASS World Service in Russian 0930 GMT 31 March 1993
Translated in FBIS-SOV-93-060, p.27
Moscow, 31 March -- Another artificial Earth satellite, Cosmos-2238, was
launched on 30 March from the Baykonur cosmodrome.
The satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research.
The satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters:
initial period of revolution--92.8 minutes; apogee--443 km; perigee--413 km;
orbital inclination--65 degrees.
Besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the
precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for
transmitting to Earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific
apparatus. The apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally.
after prepro From thomsonalcpvasaiccom
Subject Cosmos 2238 an EORSAT
ArticleID cpva153372bc16ada
Organization Science Applications Intl CorpSan Diego
Lines 48
Date Tue 6 Apr 1993 154047 GMT
I need as much information about Cosmos 2238 and its rocket fragment 1993
018B as possible Both its purpose launch date location in short
EVERYTHING Can you help
Tony Ryan Astronomy Space new International magazine available from
Ocean Reconnaissance Launch Surprises West
Space News April 511 1993 p2
[Excerpts]
Russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in 26 months
March 30 confounding Western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead
The ItarTASS news agency announced the launch of Cosmos 2238 from
Plesetsk Cosmodrome but provided little description of the payloads mission
However based on the satellites trajectory Western observers
identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic
emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement
Geoff Perry of the Kettering Group in England [said] Western
observers had concluded that no more would be launched But days after the
last [such] satellite reentered the Earths atmosphere Cosmos 2238 was
launched
Cosmos2238 Satellite Launched for Defense Ministry
Moscow ITARTASS World Service in Russian 1238 GMT 30 March 1993
Translated in FBISSOV93060 p27
by ITARTASS correspondent Veronika Romanenkova
Moscow 30 March The Cosmos2238 satellite was launched at 1600 Moscow
time today from the Baykonur by a TsiklonM carrier rocket An ITARTASS
correspondent was told at the press center of Russias spacemilitary forces
that the satellite was launched in the interests of the Russian Defense
Ministry
Parameters Given
Moscow ITARTASS World Service in Russian 0930 GMT 31 March 1993
Translated in FBISSOV93060 p27
Moscow 31 March Another artificial Earth satellite Cosmos2238 was
launched on 30 March from the Baykonur cosmodrome
The satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research
The satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters
initial period of revolution928 minutes apogee443 km perigee413 km
orbital inclination65 degrees
Besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the
precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for
transmitting to Earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific
apparatus The apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally
preprocess doc From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 72
NNTP-Posting-Host: bozo.dsinc.com
I apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted.
I've been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because I had
a son born (the day after Umar's article was posted, btw). I did
respond within a couple of days, but it turns out that a a
coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this
site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world. This
is a revision of that original response.
In article <C52q47.7Ct@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
>In article <1ps98fINNm2u@dsi.dsinc.com> perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
>>Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
>>nature of the novel could think such a thing.
[this was in response to the claim that "Rushdie made false statements
about the life of Mohammed", with the disclaimer "(fiction, I know,
but where is the line between fact and fiction?) - I stand by this
distinction between fiction and "false statements"]
>>However, it's not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_, but for
>>what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
>>contained in that book. I have yet to find *one single muslim* who
>>has convinced me that they have read the book. Some have initially
>>claimed to have done so, but none has shown more knowledge of the book
>>than a superficial Newsweek story might impart, and all have made
>>factual misstatements about events in the book.
>
>You keep saying things like this. Then, you accuse people like me of
>making ad hominem arguments. I repeat, as I have said in previous
>postings on AA: I *have* read TSV from cover to cover
I had not seen that claim, or I might have been less sweeping. You
have made what I consider factual misstatements about events in the
book, which I have raised in the past, in the "ISLAM: a clearer view"
thread as well as the root of the "Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]"
thread. My statement was not that you had not read the book, but that
you had not convinced me that you [inter alia] had. As I said before,
if you want to defend your position, then produce evidence, and
respond to the evidence I have posted; so far you have not. Of
course, my statement was not directly aimed at you, but broadly at a
number of Muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book,
indicating that they haven't read it, and narrowly at Gregg Jaeger,
who subsequently admitted that he hadn't in fact read the book,
vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case.
So far, the only things I have to go on regarding your own case are a)
the statements you made concerning the book in the "a clearer view"
posting, which I have challenged (not interpretation, but statements
of fact, for instance "Rushdie depicts the women of the most
respected family in all of Islam as whores"), and b) your claim (which
I had not seen before this) that you have indeed read it cover to
cover. I am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on
critical interpretation, but you'll have to support your end, by
responding to my criticism. I have no doubt as to the ability of a
particular Muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding
passages to take personal offense at, but you have upheld the view
that "TSV *is* intended as an attack on Islam and upon Muslims". This
view must be defended by more than mere assertion, if you want anyone
to take it seriously.
>I am trying very hard to be amicable and rational.
And I appreciate it, but welcome to the club. I am defending my
honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated
(or otherwise) insulting attack on Islam, and the parallel opinion
that most of the criticism of the book I have seen is baseless
propaganda. I have supported my statements and critical
interpretationa with in-context quotes from the book and Rushdie's
essays, which is more than my correspondents have done. Of course,
you are more than welcome to do so.
--
Jim Perry perry@dsinc.com Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions. For a nominal fee, they can be yours.
after prepro From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 72
NNTPPostingHost bozodsinccom
I apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted
Ive been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because I had
a son born the day after Umars article was posted btw I did
respond within a couple of days but it turns out that a a
coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this
site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world This
is a revision of that original response
In article khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
In article 1ps98fINNm2udsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the
nature of the novel could think such a thing
[this was in response to the claim that Rushdie made false statements
about the life of Mohammed with the disclaimer fiction I know
but where is the line between fact and fiction I stand by this
distinction between fiction and false statements]
However its not for his writing in _The Satanic Verses_ but for
what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is
contained in that book I have yet to find one single muslim who
has convinced me that they have read the book Some have initially
claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book
than a superficial Newsweek story might impart and all have made
factual misstatements about events in the book
You keep saying things like this Then you accuse people like me of
making ad hominem arguments I repeat as I have said in previous
postings on AA I have read TSV from cover to cover
I had not seen that claim or I might have been less sweeping You
have made what I consider factual misstatements about events in the
book which I have raised in the past in the ISLAM a clearer view
thread as well as the root of the Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
thread My statement was not that you had not read the book but that
you had not convinced me that you [inter alia] had As I said before
if you want to defend your position then produce evidence and
respond to the evidence I have posted so far you have not Of
course my statement was not directly aimed at you but broadly at a
number of Muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book
indicating that they havent read it and narrowly at Gregg Jaeger
who subsequently admitted that he hadnt in fact read the book
vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case
So far the only things I have to go on regarding your own case are a
the statements you made concerning the book in the a clearer view
posting which I have challenged not interpretation but statements
of fact for instance Rushdie depicts the women of the most
respected family in all of Islam as whores and b your claim which
I had not seen before this that you have indeed read it cover to
cover I am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on
critical interpretation but youll have to support your end by
responding to my criticism I have no doubt as to the ability of a
particular Muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding
passages to take personal offense at but you have upheld the view
that TSV is intended as an attack on Islam and upon Muslims This
view must be defended by more than mere assertion if you want anyone
to take it seriously
I am trying very hard to be amicable and rational
And I appreciate it but welcome to the club I am defending my
honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated
or otherwise insulting attack on Islam and the parallel opinion
that most of the criticism of the book I have seen is baseless
propaganda I have supported my statements and critical
interpretationa with incontext quotes from the book and Rushdies
essays which is more than my correspondents have done Of course
you are more than welcome to do so
Jim Perry perrydsinccom Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions For a nominal fee they can be yours
preprocess doc From: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again))
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Reply-To: rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: Vis-Orb Tragnetics Recorporation
Lines: 35
In article <C5L2xt.IqD@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.
>
>Their Hiten engineering-test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
>Earth orbit doing lunar flybys, and then was inserted into lunar orbit
>using some very tricky gravity-assist-like maneuvering. This meant that
>it would crash on the Moon eventually, since there is no such thing as
>a stable lunar orbit (as far as anyone knows), and I believe I recall
>hearing recently that it was about to happen.
The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'. These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
three body system. The probe was launched into this region for the
earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration.
This from an issue of 'Science News' or 'The Planetary Report' I
believe, about 2 months ago(?).
Raymond L. Swartz Jr. (rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu)
================================================================================
I read the newspaper today and was amazed that, in 24 hours, five billion
people could accomplish so little.
================================================================================
after prepro From rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again
Subject Re japanese moon landing
ReplyTo rlsuihepahepuiucedu
Organization VisOrb Tragnetics Recorporation
Lines 35
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon
Their Hiten engineeringtest mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravityassistlike maneuvering This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen
The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
three body system The probe was launched into this region for the
earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration
This from an issue of Science News or The Planetary Report I
believe about 2 months ago
Raymond L Swartz Jr rlsuihepahepuiucedu
I read the newspaper today and was amazed that in 24 hours five billion
people could accomplish so little
preprocess doc From: landis@stsci.edu (Robert Landis,S202,,)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Reply-To: landis@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Lines: 14
Another fish to check out is Richard Rast -- he works
for Lockheed Missiles, but is on-site at NASA Johnson.
Nick Johnson at Kaman Sciences in Colo. Spgs and his
friend, Darren McKnight at Kaman in Alexandria, VA.
Good luck.
R. Landis
"Behind every general is his wife.... and...
behind every Hillary is a Bill . ."
after prepro From landisstsciedu Robert LandisS202
Subject Re Space Debris
ReplyTo landisstsciedu
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute Baltimore MD
Lines 14
Another fish to check out is Richard Rast he works
for Lockheed Missiles but is onsite at NASA Johnson
Nick Johnson at Kaman Sciences in Colo Spgs and his
friend Darren McKnight at Kaman in Alexandria VA
Good luck
R Landis
Behind every general is his wife and
behind every Hillary is a Bill
preprocess doc From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Terraforming Venus: can it be done "cheaply"?
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 9
Would someone please send me James Oberg's email address, if he has
one and if someone reading this list knows it? I wanted to send
him a comment on something in his terraforming book.
Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu
Potential explosive yield of the annual global
production of borax: 5 million megatons
after prepro From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re Terraforming Venus can it be done cheaply
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 9
Would someone please send me James Obergs email address if he has
one and if someone reading this list knows it I wanted to send
him a comment on something in his terraforming book
Paul F Dietz
dietzcsrochesteredu
Potential explosive yield of the annual global
production of borax 5 million megatons
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 24
In article <1qve4kINNpas@sal-sun121.usc.edu> schaefer@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Peter Schaefer) writes:
>|> > Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>|> > who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
>Oh gee, a billion dollars! That'd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
>feasability study! Happy, Happy, JOY! JOY!
Depends. If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC, on billion
$$ would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon. If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle, you could send a lot more. Either way, its a lot
more than needed.
This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 24
In article 1qve4kINNpassalsun121uscedu schaefersalsun121uscedu Peter Schaefer writes
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Oh gee a billion dollars Thatd be just about enough to cover the cost of the
feasability study Happy Happy JOY JOY
Depends If you assume the existance of a working SSTO like DC on billion
would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the
moon If some of that mass went to send equipment to make LOX for the
transfer vehicle you could send a lot more Either way its a lot
more than needed
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14
In article <1ralibINNc0f@cbl.umd.edu> mike@starburst.umd.edu (Michael F. Santangelo) writes:
>... The only thing
>that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSME's and
>a nosecone on it and "just launching it." I have this vision
>of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
>complete loss of the new modular space station (not just a peice of
>it as would be the case with staged in-orbit construction).
It doesn't make a whole lot of difference, actually, since they weren't
building spares of the station hardware anyway. (Dumb.) At least this
is only one launch to fail.
--
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14
In article 1ralibINNc0fcblumdedu mikestarburstumdedu Michael F Santangelo writes
The only thing
that scares me is the part about simply strapping 3 SSMEs and
a nosecone on it and just launching it I have this vision
of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the
complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of
it as would be the case with staged inorbit construction
It doesnt make a whole lot of difference actually since they werent
building spares of the station hardware anyway Dumb At least this
is only one launch to fail
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS Dick Dunn henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: hancock@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (thomas hancock)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Lines: 40
dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk) writes:
The Centaur is controlled technology..
State Dept will not allow it to be used outside of US. Sorry.
>In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
>>What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo (other
>>than the obvious instability in the XSSR now)?
>I haven't seen any speculation about it. But, the Salyut KB (Design Bureau)
>was planning a new LH/LOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
>payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg. (Geostationary goes from
>2600 kg. (Gals launcher version) to 6000 kg.. This scheme was competing
>with the Energia-M last year and I haven't heard which won, except now
>I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the
>successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the Energia-M. So the early
>results are Energia-M won, but this is a guess, nothing is very clear in
>Russia. I'm sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue
>their development.
>The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia. and the Proton
>is 4 so that's a good fit for their existing upper stage, the Block-D
>which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia. I don't know about
>launch loads, etc.. but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
>are probably worse than the Proton (those Titan SRB's probably shake things
>up pretty good) it seems feasible. EXCEPT, the Centaur is a very fragile
>thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now.
>Protons are assembled and transported horizontially. Does anyone know
>how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
>bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
>and erected on the pad?
>They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
>(unless the new Proton second stage is actually built), and of course
>any Centaur support systems and facilities, no doubt imported from the
>US at great cost. These systems may viloate US law so there are political
>problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention.
>Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
>Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
>Schaumburg, IL
after prepro From hancocklambdamsfcnasagov thomas hancock
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization NASAMSFC
Lines 40
dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk writes
The Centaur is controlled technology
State Dept will not allow it to be used outside of US Sorry
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
What would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other
than the obvious instability in the XSSR now
I havent seen any speculation about it But the Salyut KB Design Bureau
was planning a new LHLOX second stage for the Proton which would boost
payload to LEO from about 21000 to 31500 kg Geostationary goes from
2600 kg Gals launcher version to 6000 kg This scheme was competing
with the EnergiaM last year and I havent heard which won except now
I recently read that the Central Specialized KB was working on the
successor to the Soyuz booster which must be the EnergiaM So the early
results are EnergiaM won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in
Russia Im sure if Salyut KB gets funds from someone they will continue
their development
The Centaur for the Altas is about 3 meters dia and the Proton
is 4 so thats a good fit for their existing upper stage the BlockD
which sets inside a shround just under 4 meters dia I dont know about
launch loads etc but since the Centaur survives Titan launches which
are probably worse than the Proton those Titan SRBs probably shake things
up pretty good it seems feasible EXCEPT the Centaur is a very fragile
thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now
Protons are assembled and transported horizontially Does anyone know
how much stress in the way of a payload a Centaur could support while
bolted to a Proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track
and erected on the pad
They would also need LOX and LH facilities added to the Proton pads
unless the new Proton second stage is actually built and of course
any Centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the
US at great cost These systems may viloate US law so there are political
problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the CIS you mention
Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr21.212202.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration.
Basically get the eci-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth..
You think this is crazy. Well in a way it is, but in a way it is reality.
There is a billin the congress to do just that.. Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US, unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors.. ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends
of mine, that they (the congress) propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine, versus the adjusted income, also the state governments have there
normal taxes. So by the time you get done, paying for materials, workers, and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made.
BAsically if you make a 1000.00 and spend 500. ofor expenses, you can owe
600.00 in federal taxes.. Bascially it is driving the miners off the land.. And
the only peopel who benefit are the eco-freaks..
Basically to get back to my beginning statement, is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
eco-freaks or the protectionist..
Such fun we have in these interesting times..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr212122021
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration
Basically get the ecifreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
You think this is crazy Well in a way it is but in a way it is reality
There is a billin the congress to do just that Basically to make it so
expensive to mine minerals in the US unless you can by off the inspectors or
tax collectors ascially what I understand from talking to a few miner friends
of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of
the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there
normal taxes So by the time you get done paying for materials workers and
other expenses you can owe more than what you made
BAsically if you make a 100000 and spend 500 ofor expenses you can owe
60000 in federal taxes Bascially it is driving the miners off the land And
the only peopel who benefit are the ecofreaks
Basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go
cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the
ecofreaks or the protectionist
Such fun we have in these interesting times
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
In-Reply-To: jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 22:44:14 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
<1993Apr18.224414.784@head-cfa.harvard.edu>
Distribution: sci
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr18.224414.784@head-cfa.harvard.edu> jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell) writes:
My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.
Good grief. And I thought the Shuttle software was known for being
well-engineered. If this is actually the case, every member of the
programming team should be taken out and shot.
(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity, I strongly doubt that this is the case).
Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
after prepro From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
InReplyTo jcmheadcfaharvardedus message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 224414 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
1993Apr18224414784headcfaharvardedu
Distribution sci
Lines 17
In article 1993Apr18224414784headcfaharvardedu jcmheadcfaharvardedu Jonathan McDowell writes
My understanding is that the expected errors are basically
known bugs in the warning system software things are checked
that dont have the right values in yet because they arent
set till after launch and suchlike Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew
ok if you see a warning no 213 before liftoff ignore it
Good grief And I thought the Shuttle software was known for being
wellengineered If this is actually the case every member of the
programming team should be taken out and shot
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this is the case
Nick Haines nickhcmuedu
preprocess doc From: xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 12
Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in today's Washington Post that Joseph Shea, the
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons.
Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February. He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel.
Shea's presentation was rambling and almost inaudible.
Shea's deputy, former astronaut Bryan O'Connor, will take over the effort.
Goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track.
--
Chuck Divine
after prepro From xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 12
Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in todays Washington Post that Joseph Shea the
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons
Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel
Sheas presentation was rambling and almost inaudible
Sheas deputy former astronaut Bryan OConnor will take over the effort
Goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track
Chuck Divine
preprocess doc From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 215
This kind of argument cries for a comment...
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com wrote:
: In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>, galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton) writes:
Jim, you originally wrote:
: >>...God did not create
: >>disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns.
: >
: >>What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
: >>mutable and can evolve. Without delving into a deep discussion of
: >>creationism vs evolutionism, God created the original genetic code
: >>perfect and without flaw.
: > ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Do you have any evidence for this? If the code was once perfect, and
has degraded ever since, we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement, shouldn't we?
Perhaps the biggest "imperfection" of the code is that it is full
of non-coding regions, introns, which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions (exons). An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin; it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains.
Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing? It appears that
intron loss can occur, and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exon-intron structure in their genes.
On the other hand, the possibility that introns have been inserted
later, presents several logical difficulties. Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism - this would have to be present, but unused,
if introns are inserted. Moreover, intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting - random insertion would not be tolerated,
since sequences for intron removal (self-splicing of mRNA) are
conserved. Besides, transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace - long terminal repeats and target - site duplications, and
these are not found in or near intron sequences.
I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting "theological arguments" like this.
Try Watson's Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell, Lodish
& Baltimore's Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters.
: Remember, the question was posed in a theological context (Why does
: God cause disease in newborns?), and my answer is likewise from a
: theological perspective -- my own. It is no less valid than a purely
: scientific perspective, just different.
Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence, whereas
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion.
: I think you misread my meaning. I said God made the genetic code perfect,
: but that doesn't mean it's perfect now. It has certainly evolved since.
For the worse? Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion? Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective, unless you support it by some evidence.
In fact, it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than we've thought - for instance, sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites. (This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution, eg Tierra.)
: Perhaps. I thought it was higher energy rays like X-rays, gamma
: rays, and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage.
In fact, it is thermal energy that does most of the damage, although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action.
: Actually, neither of us "knows" what the atmosphere was like at the
: time when God created life. According to my recollection, most
: biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago -- after
: all, that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
: was created. It would still be too primitive to support life. I
: seem to remember a figure more like 2.5 to 3 billion years ago for
: the origination of life on earth. Anyone with a better estimate?
I'd replace "created" with "formed", since there is no need to
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one.
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 4.6 - 4.8
billion years, and earliest signs of life (not true fossils, but
organic, stromatolite-like layers) date back to 3.5 billion years.
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve.
I'm sorry I can't give any references, this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here.
: >>dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
: >>diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic. Although the forces of
: >>natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the
: >>degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.
Again, do you _want_ this be true, or do you have any evidence for
this supposed "degeneration"?
I can understand Scott's reaction:
: > Excuse me, but this is so far-fetched that I know you must be
: > jesting. Do you know what pathogens are? Do you know what
: > Point Mutations are? Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
: > ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY?!!!!!
:
: In response to your last statement, no, and neither do you.
: You may very well believe that and accept it as fact, but you
: cannot *know* that.
I hope you don't forget this: We have _evidence_ that suggests
everything can come about spontaneously. Do you have evidence against
this conclusion? In science, one does not have to _believe_ in
anything. It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve. But the
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so,
and not to present one's own conclusions prior to this.
Theology does not use this method. Therefore, I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions.
: >>Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely
: >>affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the
: >>simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in
: >>causing infection and disease. It is a bad combination. Hence
: >>we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial
: >>diseases/disorders.
You are supposing a purpose, not a valid move. Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease. They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution - only replication saves replicators
from degradiation. We are just an efficient method for our DNA to
survive and replicate. The less efficient methods didn't make it
to the present.
And for the last time. Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes. Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true - we have suppressed our selection,
and thus are bound to degrade. I haven't seen much evidence for either
claim.
: But then I ask, So? Where is this relevant to my discussion in
: answering John's question of why? Why are there genetic diseases,
: and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
: babies to develop antibodies. Is it God's fault? (the original
: question) -- I say no, it is not.
Of course, nothing "evil" is god's fault. But your explanation does
not work, it fails miserably.
: You may be right. But the fact is that you don't know that
: Satan is not responsible, and neither do I.
:
: Suppose that a powerful, evil being like Satan exists. Would it
: be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
: that affect mankind? I don't think so.
He could have done a much better Job. (Pun intended.) The problem is,
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases, they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution.
: Did I say that? Where? Seems to me like another bad inference.
: Actually what you've done is to oversimplify what I said to the
: point that your summary of my words takes on a new context. I
: never said that people are "meant" (presumably by God) "to be
: punished by getting diseases". Why I did say is that free moral
: choices have attendent consequences. If mankind chooses to reject
: God, as people have done since the beginning, then they should not
: expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
: universe.
I am not expecting this. If god exists, I expect him to leave us alone.
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free. This is an interesting philosophical question, and the answer
is not as clear-cut as it seems to be.
What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah?
: Oh, I admit it's not perfect (yet). But I'm working on it. :)
A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point.
: What does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or the
: question to which I provided an answer? Biology and Genetics are
: fine subjects and important scientific endeavors. But they explain
: *how* God created and set up life processes. They don't explain
: the why behind creation, life, or its subsequent evolution.
Why is there a "why behind"? And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence. This is why we recommend
these books.
Is there any need to invoke any why behind, a prime mover? Evidence
for this? If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention, as recent cosmological theories (Hawking et al)
suggest, why do people still insist on this?
: Thanks Scotty, for your fine and sagely advice. But I am
: not highly motivated to learn all the nitty-gritty details
: of biology and genetics, although I'm sure I'd find it a
: fascinating subject. For I realize that the details do
: not change the Big Picture, that God created life in the
: beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
: environment.
I'm sorry, but they do. There is no evidence for your big picture,
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation.
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being.
Try reading P.W. Atkins' Creation Revisited (Freeman, 1992).
Petri
--
___. .'*''.* Petri Pihko kem-pmp@ Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' . Pihatie 15 C finou.oulu.fi Physics is the Rule of
' *' .* '* SF-90650 OULU kempmp@ the Game.
*' * .* FINLAND phoenix.oulu.fi -> Chemistry is The Game.
after prepro From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 215
This kind of argument cries for a comment
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom wrote
In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton writes
Jim you originally wrote
God did not create
disease nor is He responsible for the maladies of newborns
What God did create was life according to a protein code which is
mutable and can evolve Without delving into a deep discussion of
creationism vs evolutionism God created the original genetic code
perfect and without flaw
Do you have any evidence for this If the code was once perfect and
has degraded ever since we _should_ have some evidence in favour
of this statement shouldnt we
Perhaps the biggest imperfection of the code is that it is full
of noncoding regions introns which are so called because they
intervene with the coding regions exons An impressive amount of
evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin it is
likely that early exons represented early protein domains
Is the number of introns decreasing or increasing It appears that
intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually
have quite similar exonintron structure in their genes
On the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted
later presents several logical difficulties Introns are removed
by a splicing mechanism this would have to be present but unused
if introns are inserted Moreover intron insertion would have
required _precise_ targeting random insertion would not be tolerated
since sequences for intron removal selfsplicing of mRNA are
conserved Besides transposition of a sequence usually leaves a
trace long terminal repeats and target site duplications and
these are not found in or near intron sequences
I seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and
genetics before posting theological arguments like this
Try Watsons Molecular Biology of the Gene or Darnell Lodish
Baltimores Molecular Biology of the Cell for starters
Remember the question was posed in a theological context Why does
God cause disease in newborns and my answer is likewise from a
theological perspective my own It is no less valid than a purely
scientific perspective just different
Scientific perspective is supported by the evidence whereas
theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion
I think you misread my meaning I said God made the genetic code perfect
but that doesnt mean its perfect now It has certainly evolved since
For the worse Would you please cite a few references that support
your assertion Your assertion is less valid than the scientific
perspective unless you support it by some evidence
In fact it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps
more important than weve thought for instance sex might
have evolved as defence against parasites This view is supported by
computer simulations of evolution eg Tierra
Perhaps I thought it was higher energy rays like Xrays gamma
rays and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage
In fact it is thermal energy that does most of the damage although
it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action
Actually neither of us knows what the atmosphere was like at the
time when God created life According to my recollection most
biologists do not claim that life began 4 billion years ago after
all that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth
was created It would still be too primitive to support life I
seem to remember a figure more like 25 to 3 billion years ago for
the origination of life on earth Anyone with a better estimate
Id replace created with formed since there is no need to
invoke any creator if the Earth can be formed without one
Most recent estimates of the age of the Earth range between 46 48
billion years and earliest signs of life not true fossils but
organic stromatolitelike layers date back to 35 billion years
This would leave more than billion years for the first cells to
evolve
Im sorry I cant give any references this is based on the course
on evolutionary biochemistry I attended here
dominion it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer
diseases both bacterialviral and genetic Although the forces of
natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the
degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this
Again do you _want_ this be true or do you have any evidence for
this supposed degeneration
I can understand Scotts reaction
Excuse me but this is so farfetched that I know you must be
jesting Do you know what pathogens are Do you know what
Point Mutations are Do you know that EVERYTHING CAN COME
ABOUT SPONTANEOUSLY
In response to your last statement no and neither do you
You may very well believe that and accept it as fact but you
cannot know that
I hope you dont forget this We have _evidence_ that suggests
everything can come about spontaneously Do you have evidence against
this conclusion In science one does not have to _believe_ in
anything It is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve But the
right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so
and not to present ones own conclusions prior to this
Theology does not use this method Therefore I seriously doubt
it could ever come to right conclusions
Human DNA being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely
affecting our wellbeing and ability to fight off disease while the
simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in
causing infection and disease It is a bad combination Hence
we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial
diseasesdisorders
You are supposing a purpose not a valid move Bacteria and viruses
do not exist to cause disease They are just another manifests of
a general principle of evolution only replication saves replicators
from degradiation We are just an efficient method for our DNA to
survive and replicate The less efficient methods didnt make it
to the present
And for the last time Please present some evidence for your claim that
human DNA is degrading through evolutionary processes Some people have
claimed that the opposite is true we have suppressed our selection
and thus are bound to degrade I havent seen much evidence for either
claim
But then I ask So Where is this relevant to my discussion in
answering Johns question of why Why are there genetic diseases
and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
babies to develop antibodies Is it Gods fault the original
question I say no it is not
Of course nothing evil is gods fault But your explanation does
not work it fails miserably
You may be right But the fact is that you dont know that
Satan is not responsible and neither do I
Suppose that a powerful evil being like Satan exists Would it
be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills
that affect mankind I dont think so
He could have done a much better Job Pun intended The problem is
it seems no Satan is necessary to explain any diseases they are
just as inevitable as any product of evolution
Did I say that Where Seems to me like another bad inference
Actually what youve done is to oversimplify what I said to the
point that your summary of my words takes on a new context I
never said that people are meant presumably by God to be
punished by getting diseases Why I did say is that free moral
choices have attendent consequences If mankind chooses to reject
God as people have done since the beginning then they should not
expect God to protect them from adverse events in an entropic
universe
I am not expecting this If god exists I expect him to leave us alone
I would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed
free This is an interesting philosophical question and the answer
is not as clearcut as it seems to be
What consequences would you expect from rejecting Allah
Oh I admit its not perfect yet But Im working on it
A good library or a bookstore is a good starting point
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China or the
question to which I provided an answer Biology and Genetics are
fine subjects and important scientific endeavors But they explain
how God created and set up life processes They dont explain
the why behind creation life or its subsequent evolution
Why is there a why behind And your proposition was something
that is not supported by the evidence This is why we recommend
these books
Is there any need to invoke any why behind a prime mover Evidence
for this If the whole universe can come into existence without
any intervention as recent cosmological theories Hawking et al
suggest why do people still insist on this
Thanks Scotty for your fine and sagely advice But I am
not highly motivated to learn all the nittygritty details
of biology and genetics although Im sure Id find it a
fascinating subject For I realize that the details do
not change the Big Picture that God created life in the
beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its
environment
Im sorry but they do There is no evidence for your big picture
and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation
It can come into existence without a Supreme Being
Try reading PW Atkins Creation Revisited Freeman 1992
Petri
___ Petri Pihko kempmp Mathematics is the Truth
___ Pihatie 15 C finououlufi Physics is the Rule of
SF90650 OULU kempmp the Game
FINLAND phoenixoulufi Chemistry is The Game
preprocess doc From: Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Dunn)
Subject: Re: Clementine mission name
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 22
> Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org writes:
>
> Old pioneer song from the 1850's or so goes as follows:
>
> "In a cavern, in a canyon,
> Excavating for a mine,
> Dwelt a miner, forty-niner,
> And his daughter, CLEMENTINE"
>
> Chorus:
> "Oh my darling, Oh my darling,
> Oh my darling Clementine.
> You are lost and gone forever,
> Oh my darling Clementine."
Let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the
sentiments of the first verse (miner) rather than the second (lost and gone
forever).
--
Bruce Dunn Vancouver, Canada Bruce_Dunn@mindlink.bc.ca
after prepro From Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca Bruce Dunn
Subject Re Clementine mission name
Organization MIND LINK British Columbia Canada
Lines 22
WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg writes
Old pioneer song from the 1850s or so goes as follows
In a cavern in a canyon
Excavating for a mine
Dwelt a miner fortyniner
And his daughter CLEMENTINE
Chorus
Oh my darling Oh my darling
Oh my darling Clementine
You are lost and gone forever
Oh my darling Clementine
Let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the
sentiments of the first verse miner rather than the second lost and gone
forever
Bruce Dunn Vancouver Canada Bruce_Dunnmindlinkbcca
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>> Which type of morality are you talking about? In a natural sense, it
>> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
>> adversely affect your own, I guess).
>Hehehe, so you say, but this objective morality somehere tells you
>that this is not the case, and you don't know all the rules of such
>transcendental game systems...
Which objective system are you talking about? What is its goal?
Again, which brand of morality are you talking about?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re Which type of morality are you talking about In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
Hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you
that this is not the case and you dont know all the rules of such
transcendental game systems
Which objective system are you talking about What is its goal
Again which brand of morality are you talking about
keith
preprocess doc From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
In-Reply-To: mangoe@cs.umd.edu's message of 4 Apr 93 10:56:03 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 33
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>>David Wood writes:
>>
>> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
>
>More seriously, this is just a high-falutin' way of saying "I don't believe
>what you're saying".
Are you making a meta-argument here? In any case, you are wrong.
Think of those invisible pink unicorns.
>Also, the existence if Jesus is not an extradinary claim.
I was responding to the "historical accuracy... of Biblical claims",
of which the existence of Jesus is only one, and one that was not even
mentioned in my post.
>You may want to
>complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims (and
>I won't argue otherwise), but that is a different issue.
Wrong. That was exactly the issue. Go back and read the context
included within my post, and you'll see what I mean.
Now that I've done you the kindness of responding to your questions,
please do the same for me. Answer the Charley Challenges. Your claim
that they are of the "did not!/ did so!" variety is a dishonest dodge
that I feel certain fools only one person.
--Dave Wood
after prepro From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Re Gospel Dating
InReplyTo mangoecsumdedus message of 4 Apr 93 105603 GMT
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 33
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
David Wood writes
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
More seriously this is just a highfalutin way of saying I dont believe
what youre saying
Are you making a metaargument here In any case you are wrong
Think of those invisible pink unicorns
Also the existence if Jesus is not an extradinary claim
I was responding to the historical accuracy of Biblical claims
of which the existence of Jesus is only one and one that was not even
mentioned in my post
You may want to
complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims and
I wont argue otherwise but that is a different issue
Wrong That was exactly the issue Go back and read the context
included within my post and youll see what I mean
Now that Ive done you the kindness of responding to your questions
please do the same for me Answer the Charley Challenges Your claim
that they are of the did not did so variety is a dishonest dodge
that I feel certain fools only one person
Dave Wood
preprocess doc From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 38
In article <C5qIv3.H0o.1@cs.cmu.edu> nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
> If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
> economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a
> lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
> but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
> military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than
> just a "we have the money, why not?" approach.
>
>Ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
>wasted on the moon. It's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000R?) bills
>to fuel their moon-dozers. The money to fund a lunar base would be
>spent in the country to which the base belonged. It's a way of funding
>high-tech research, just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
>fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the
>defense of the country, or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
>fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-European
>cooperation.
>
>Now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of
>money (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as
>investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at
>the size of that multiplier :->).
Actually I favor government funded research. It *is* a pump prime
for a lot of basic technologies. I also understand the short term
value of high tech welfare programs. But they can't substitute for
long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise. That's what's
needed to maintain a healthy economy *anywhere*, on Earth or Luna.
I don't see that long term potential on Luna due to a bunch of
factors I outline in another post.
Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
after prepro From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 38
In article nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes
If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a
lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than
just a we have the money why not approach
Ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon Its not like theyd be using 1000 1000R bills
to fuel their moondozers The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged Its a way of funding
hightech research just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research under the pretense that its good for panEuropean
cooperation
Now maybe you think that governmentfunded research is a waste of
money in fact Im pretty sure you do but it does count as
investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at
the size of that multiplier
Actually I favor government funded research It is a pump prime
for a lot of basic technologies I also understand the short term
value of high tech welfare programs But they cant substitute for
long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise Thats whats
needed to maintain a healthy economy anywhere on Earth or Luna
I dont see that long term potential on Luna due to a bunch of
factors I outline in another post
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV You make it gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems we break it uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way Guaranteed emorykd4ncke4zvgary
Lawrenceville GA 30244
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr20.101044.2291@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. Of
course, they may be over-optimistic.
You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs.
I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 15
In article 1993Apr201010442291itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation Of
course they may be overoptimistic
You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs
Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 131
In <2942956021.3.p00261@psilink.com> "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
>>DATE: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 10:00:39 GMT
>>FROM: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
>>
>>In <1p8ivt$cfj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>
>>>Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next?
>>
>>I don't know if you are doing so, but it seems you are implying
>>(1) that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it,
>>and
>>(2) that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC.
>>
>>[WTC = World Trade Centre, which was the building that was blown up, I
>>think.]
>>
>>Okay... to make some comments...
>>
>>(1) The person has only been accused -- innocent until proven guilty,
>>remember? Secondly, there seem to be some holes in his accusation that
>>I read about. For instance, if they guy used that particular van to
>>blow up the building, and then to go back and claim his deposit back
>>afterwards, he must be incredibly stupid.
>Perhaps Salamen was one of those "uneducated" Muslims we hear so much about.
>>Nevertheless, he was
>>apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb. It
>>doesn't seem to fit together, somehow.
>Actually, Salameh was not the ONLY person involved. The other fellow was
>a chemical engineer working for Allied Signal who had specifically studied
>explosive devices in school (believe it or not - we actually allow radical
>Muslim types to study things like this in our universities - so much for
>the price of freedom)
From what I read, the other fellow told Salameh how to put it together
over the phone. The bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated
type, so to put a (I assume complicated) sophisticated bomb together
from instructions _over the phone_ (!) one must need some brains I would
expect.
>>Despite this, there have
>>already been many attacks and threats against mosques and Muslims in the
>>United States as a consequence of his accusation, I have read.
>>
>O.K., now please tell us where this is happening. I live in the U.S. and
>I have heard very little about these mosque attacks. There are many mosques
>in Houston, Texas and I would like to know what is going on so I can verify
>this. Or is the Great Jewish Media Conspiracy keeping us from knowing about
>this in the U.S. We heard about the mosque attacks during the Desert Storm
>venture, so why is it so quiet now? Maybe it is localized to New Jersey?
I read this in an article in "The Australian Muslim Times", the
newspaper (weekly) of the Australian Muslim community.
If this is true, perhaps one of the Muslims based in North America (if
they see this posting) can elaborate.
>>(2) Islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent. In the Qur'an
>>it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war.
>>The blowing up of the WTC and harming innocents is therefore in blatant
>>contradiction to Islamic teachings.
>This means absolutely nothing. Plenty of people commit violence while
>following what they think are valid religious principles. I have seen
>people post many things here from the Koran which could be "misinterpreted"
>(if that is the explanation you wish to use) by an "uneducated" Muslim to
>allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers. The first thing every Muslim
>says is that no Muslim could have done that because Islam teaches against
>harming innocents. And we are supposed to take you WORD that it NEVER
>happens. What do you think is the consequence? Does Allah strike them
>down before the "alleged" violence occurs? Of course not. Muslims commit
>the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the Koran. We're
>pretty hip to that trick. And I even doubt that it will come up in the
>trials.
>"My defense is that I am Muslim and Islam teaches me not to harm the innocent.
>Therefore, the people who were killed must not have been innocent. Sure we
>set off the bomb, your honor, but you must remember, sir, I am a Muslim.
>Allah is all-powerful. Allah would not have allowed this. Are you insulting
>my religion?"
>Great defense, eh?
>Just admit that there are some incredibly stupid, violent Muslims in the
>world and stop hiding from that fact. It does no one any good to deny it.
>It only makes the more reasonable Muslims look like they are protecting the
>bad ones. Can you see that?
I don't deny this fact.
The thrust of my argument here is that
(a) Salameh is, according to US law, innocent as he has not been found
guilty in a court of law. As his guilt has not been established, it is
wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption.
(b) Islam teaches us _not_ to harm innocents. If Muslims -- who perhaps
have not realized that Islam teaches this -- perform such actions, it is
_not_ _because_ of the teachings of Islam, but rather _in spite of_ and
_in contradiction to_ the teachings of Islam. This is an important
distinction.
I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say "Muslim". In
general, anyone who calls themselves a "Muslim" and does not do or
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim. Thus, one who might do things contrary to
Islam (through ignorance, for example) does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim. If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles, though, then one does leave Islam.
The term "Muslim" is to be contrasted with "Mu'min", which means "true
believer". However, whether a Muslim is in reality a Mu'min is
something known only by God (and perhaps that person himself). So you
will not find the term Mu'min used very much by Muslims in alt.atheism,
because it is not known to anybody (except myself and God), whether I,
for example, am a "true believer" or not. For example, I could just be
putting on a show here, and in reality believe something opposite to
what I write here, without anyone knowing. Thus, when we say "Muslims"
we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow Islam, whether in
practice they might, in ignorance, transgress Islamic teachings. By
"Muslim" we do not necessarily mean "Mu'min", or "true believer" in
Islam.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 131
In 29429560213p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles writes
DATE Sat 3 Apr 1993 100039 GMT
FROM Fred Rice
In 1p8ivtcfjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Should we British go around blowing up skyscrapers next
I dont know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying
1 that the person accused of blowing up the WTC in NY actually did it
and
2 that Islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the WTC
[WTC World Trade Centre which was the building that was blown up I
think]
Okay to make some comments
1 The person has only been accused innocent until proven guilty
remember Secondly there seem to be some holes in his accusation that
I read about For instance if they guy used that particular van to
blow up the building and then to go back and claim his deposit back
afterwards he must be incredibly stupid
Perhaps Salamen was one of those uneducated Muslims we hear so much about
Nevertheless he was
apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb It
doesnt seem to fit together somehow
Actually Salameh was not the ONLY person involved The other fellow was
a chemical engineer working for Allied Signal who had specifically studied
explosive devices in school believe it or not we actually allow radical
Muslim types to study things like this in our universities so much for
the price of freedom
From what I read the other fellow told Salameh how to put it together
over the phone The bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated
type so to put a I assume complicated sophisticated bomb together
from instructions _over the phone_ one must need some brains I would
expect
Despite this there have
already been many attacks and threats against mosques and Muslims in the
United States as a consequence of his accusation I have read
OK now please tell us where this is happening I live in the US and
I have heard very little about these mosque attacks There are many mosques
in Houston Texas and I would like to know what is going on so I can verify
this Or is the Great Jewish Media Conspiracy keeping us from knowing about
this in the US We heard about the mosque attacks during the Desert Storm
venture so why is it so quiet now Maybe it is localized to New Jersey
I read this in an article in The Australian Muslim Times the
newspaper weekly of the Australian Muslim community
If this is true perhaps one of the Muslims based in North America if
they see this posting can elaborate
2 Islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent In the Quran
it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war
The blowing up of the WTC and harming innocents is therefore in blatant
contradiction to Islamic teachings
This means absolutely nothing Plenty of people commit violence while
following what they think are valid religious principles I have seen
people post many things here from the Koran which could be misinterpreted
if that is the explanation you wish to use by an uneducated Muslim to
allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers The first thing every Muslim
says is that no Muslim could have done that because Islam teaches against
harming innocents And we are supposed to take you WORD that it NEVER
happens What do you think is the consequence Does Allah strike them
down before the alleged violence occurs Of course not Muslims commit
the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the Koran Were
pretty hip to that trick And I even doubt that it will come up in the
trials
My defense is that I am Muslim and Islam teaches me not to harm the innocent
Therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent Sure we
set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir I am a Muslim
Allah is allpowerful Allah would not have allowed this Are you insulting
my religion
Great defense eh
Just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent Muslims in the
world and stop hiding from that fact It does no one any good to deny it
It only makes the more reasonable Muslims look like they are protecting the
bad ones Can you see that
I dont deny this fact
The thrust of my argument here is that
a Salameh is according to US law innocent as he has not been found
guilty in a court of law As his guilt has not been established it is
wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption
b Islam teaches us _not_ to harm innocents If Muslims who perhaps
have not realized that Islam teaches this perform such actions it is
_not_ _because_ of the teachings of Islam but rather _in spite of_ and
_in contradiction to_ the teachings of Islam This is an important
distinction
I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say Muslim In
general anyone who calls themselves a Muslim and does not do or
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim Thus one who might do things contrary to
Islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles though then one does leave Islam
The term Muslim is to be contrasted with Mumin which means true
believer However whether a Muslim is in reality a Mumin is
something known only by God and perhaps that person himself So you
will not find the term Mumin used very much by Muslims in altatheism
because it is not known to anybody except myself and God whether I
for example am a true believer or not For example I could just be
putting on a show here and in reality believe something opposite to
what I write here without anyone knowing Thus when we say Muslims
we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow Islam whether in
practice they might in ignorance transgress Islamic teachings By
Muslim we do not necessarily mean Mumin or true believer in
Islam
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 22
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
> ( I am almost sure that Zyklon-B is immediate and painless method of
> death. If not, insert soem other form. )
>
> And, ethnic and minority groups have been killed, mutilated and
> exterminated through out history, so I guess it was not unusual.
>
> So, you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the US
> Constitution? [ in so far, the punishment. I doubt they recieved what would
> be considered a "fair" trial by US standards.
Don't be so sure. Look what happened to Japanese citizens in the US during
World War II. If you're prepared to say "Let's round these people up and
stick them in a concentration camp without trial", it's only a short step to
gassing them without trial. After all, it seems that the Nazis originally
only intended to imprison the Jews; the Final Solution was dreamt up partly
because they couldn't afford to run the camps because of the devastation
caused by Goering's Total War. Those who weren't gassed generally died of
malnutrition or disease.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re I am almost sure that ZyklonB is immediate and painless method of
death If not insert soem other form
And ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and
exterminated through out history so I guess it was not unusual
So you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the US
Constitution [ in so far the punishment I doubt they recieved what would
be considered a fair trial by US standards
Dont be so sure Look what happened to Japanese citizens in the US during
World War II If youre prepared to say Lets round these people up and
stick them in a concentration camp without trial its only a short step to
gassing them without trial After all it seems that the Nazis originally
only intended to imprison the Jews the Final Solution was dreamt up partly
because they couldnt afford to run the camps because of the devastation
caused by Goerings Total War Those who werent gassed generally died of
malnutrition or disease
mathew
preprocess doc From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: Order MOORE's book to restore Great Telescope
Lines: 41
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 41
Several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the
Great 72" reflector built at Birr Castle, Ireland in 1845 which remained the
largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century.
"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" was written by Patrick Moore who now sits on
the committee which is going to restore the telescope. (The remains are on
public display all year round - the massive support walls, the 60 foot long
tube, and other bits and pieces). This book is the definitivie history of
how one man, the Third Earl of Rosse, pulled off the most impressive
technical achievement, perhaps ever, in the history of the telescope, and
the discoveries made with the instrument.
Patrick Moore is donating all proceeds from the book's sale to help restore
the telescope. Astronomy Ireland is making the book available world wide by
mail order. It's a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day
when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer.
=====ORDERING INFORMATION=====
"The Astronomy of Birr Castle" Dr. Patrick Moore, xii, 90pp, 208mm x 145mm.
Price:
U.S.: US$4.95 + US$2.95 post & packing (add $3.50 airmail)
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Make all payments to "Astronomy Ireland".
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Payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft.
Send to our permanent address: P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
You can also subscribe to "Astronomy & Space" at the same time. See below:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).
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Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min
after prepro From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject Order MOOREs book to restore Great Telescope
Lines 41
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 41
Several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the
Great 72 reflector built at Birr Castle Ireland in 1845 which remained the
largest in the world until the the start of the 20th century
The Astronomy of Birr Castle was written by Patrick Moore who now sits on
the committee which is going to restore the telescope The remains are on
public display all year round the massive support walls the 60 foot long
tube and other bits and pieces This book is the definitivie history of
how one man the Third Earl of Rosse pulled off the most impressive
technical achievement perhaps ever in the history of the telescope and
the discoveries made with the instrument
Patrick Moore is donating all proceeds from the books sale to help restore
the telescope Astronomy Ireland is making the book available world wide by
mail order Its a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day
when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer
ORDERING INFORMATION
The Astronomy of Birr Castle Dr Patrick Moore xii 90pp 208mm x 145mm
Price
US US495 US295 post packing add 350 airmail
UK pounds sterling 350 150 post packing
EUROPE pounds sterling 350 200 post and packing
REST OF WORLD as per US but funds payable in US only
PAYMENT
Make all payments to Astronomy Ireland
CREDIT CARD MASTERCARDVISAEUROCARDACCESS accepted by email or snail
mail give card number name address expiration date and total amount
Payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft
Send to our permanent address POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
You can also subscribe to Astronomy Space at the same time See below
Tony Ryan Astronomy Space new International magazine available from
Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress
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preprocess doc From: zellner@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission
Lines: 19
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: world,na
In article <1rd1g0$ckb@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>
>
> SOmebody mentioned a re-boost of HST during this mission, meaning
> that Weight is a very tight margin on this mission.
>
I haven't heard any hint of a re-boost, or that any is needed.
>
> why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled
> thruster module to HST, then let it make the re-boost. it has to be
> cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug.
Nasty, dirty combustion products! People have gone to monumental efforts to
keep HST clean. We certainly aren't going to bolt any thrusters to it.
Ben
after prepro From zellnerstsciedu
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission
Lines 19
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution worldna
In article 1rd1g0ckbaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
SOmebody mentioned a reboost of HST during this mission meaning
that Weight is a very tight margin on this mission
I havent heard any hint of a reboost or that any is needed
why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled
thruster module to HST then let it make the reboost it has to be
cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug
Nasty dirty combustion products People have gone to monumental efforts to
keep HST clean We certainly arent going to bolt any thrusters to it
Ben
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Dear Mr. Theist
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20
Pixie (dl2021@andy.bgsu.edu) wrote:
: For all the problems technology has caused, your types have made
: things even worse. Must we be reminded of the Inquisition, Operation
: Rescue, the Ku Klux Klan, Posse Comitatus, the 700 Club, David Duke, Salem
: Witch Trials, the Crusades, gay bashings, etc.
: PLUS virtually each and every single war, regardless of the level of
: technology, has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage
: (chaplains, etc.), and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal.
: Don't forget to pray for our troops!
:
This is really tedious. Every bad thing that's ever happened is
because the malefactors were under the influence of religion - does
anyone -really- believe that. I've seen it so often it must be a
pretty general opinion in a.a, but I want to believe that atheists are
really not THAT dishonest. Please, stick to the facts and, having
accomplished that, interpret them correctly.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Dear Mr Theist
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20
Pixie dl2021andybgsuedu wrote
For all the problems technology has caused your types have made
things even worse Must we be reminded of the Inquisition Operation
Rescue the Ku Klux Klan Posse Comitatus the 700 Club David Duke Salem
Witch Trials the Crusades gay bashings etc
PLUS virtually each and every single war regardless of the level of
technology has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage
chaplains etc and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal
Dont forget to pray for our troops
This is really tedious Every bad thing thats ever happened is
because the malefactors were under the influence of religion does
anyone really believe that Ive seen it so often it must be a
pretty general opinion in aa but I want to believe that atheists are
really not THAT dishonest Please stick to the facts and having
accomplished that interpret them correctly
Bill
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage:...)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 208
In <1993Apr4.200253.21409@ennews.eas.asu.edu> guncer@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Selim Guncer ) writes:
>You might not like what Bernard Lewis writes about, label him
>as a Zionist or such to discredit him etc.
You misrepresent me, Selim. The hard evidence for my statements about
his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book
"Orientalism" by Edward Said. Edward Said, by the way, is a Christian,
not a Muslim.
>I think he is
>pretty much objective in his treatment in "Race and Slavery in
>the Middle East", since he clearly distinguishes between
>slavery under Islam, and the practice of slavery in other countries,
>like the US prior to the civil war. He also does not conceal
>that there are verses in the Quran which promote the liberation
>of slaves. What he doesn't, and I don't think nobody can,
>deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be
>abolished in Islamic countries. Now you might, rather conveniently,
>blame the practice of slavery on Muslims, but the facts are out
>there. I also fail to see the relevance of the claim of Lewis being
>a "Zionist" to what I wrote.
Regarding Bernard Lewis:
Him being a Zionist gives him a political motive for his
giving misrepresentations and half-truths about Islam.
Read "Orientalism" by Edward Said -- see the evidence for yourself.
In fact, I may post some of it here (if it isn't too long).
>They were encyclopaedic information
>which anybody can access - that slavery was abolished at certain
>dates some 1200 years after Muhammed, that this was the cause
>of tensions in the Ottoman empire between the Arab slave traders
>and the government etc.. We also have in the ASU library volumes
>of British documents on slavery where reports and documents
>concerning slavery all around the world can be found, which I
>checked some of the incidents Lewis mentions. So I don't think
>ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence.
I haven't read Lewis's article, so I can't comment directly upon it, and
have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far, that his
political motives make him a biased writer on Islam. His anti-Islamic
polemics, as I understand it, are often quite subtle and are often based
on telling half-truths.
Again, read "Orientalism" by Edward Said. I am _not_ asking you to take
what I say on trust, in fact I am urging you not to do so but to get
this book (it is a well-known book) and check the evidence out for
_yourself_.
>The issue I raised was that slaves WERE USED FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES,
>when it was claimed that Islam prohibits extra-marital sex.
>I wrote that the Prophet himself had concubines, I wrote an
>incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not
>want his concubine to get pregnant etc., which is contrary
>to the notion that "sex is for procreation only". In other
>words, such claims are baseless in the Quran and the Hadith.
If slavery is _in reality_ (as opposed to in the practice of some
Muslims) opposed by Islam, then using slaves for sexual
purposes is necessarily opposed too.
>I seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you. Islam is
>not "advocating" slavery. Slavery was an existing institution in the
>7th century. It advised on slaves being freed for good
>deeds etc., which is nothing new. Many cultures saw this as a
>good thing. What is the problem here? But I can argue rightfully
>that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses
>politically - the Quran rewards the good slave, so obey your
>master and perhaps one day you'll be free. But, it is very
>understandable that I do not communicate with Muslims, since
>they assume the Quran is from a "God", and I think it is a rule-based
>system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo.
>Slaves are a part of this system, the subordination of women
>so that their function in society boils down to child-making
>is a part of this system, etc.
I understand your point of view, Selim -- I think, rather, it is _us_
who are not getting through to _you_.
Some of the points you repeat above I have already answered before.
Regarding women, I have made posting after posting on this subject,
showing that Islam is not anti-woman, etc. However, have you been
completely ignoring my postings or just missing them? I just reposted a
very good one, under the title "Islam and Women", reposted from
soc.religion.islam. If this has already disappeared from your site,
then please email me telling me so and I will email you a copy of this
excellent article.
IMHO, your understanding of the issue of women in Islam is sadly deficient.
Regarding slaves, _my_ posting on slavery -- the second one I made,
which is a repost of an article I wrote early last year -- is based
completely on the Qur'an and contains numerous Qur'anic verses and
hadiths to support its point of view.
Our approaches are different -- you are arguing from a historical
standpoint and I am arguing directly from the teachings of the Qur'an
and hadiths. Now, just because people say they are Muslims and perform
a particular action, does that automatically mean that their action is
part of Islam, even if it is opposed by the Qur'an and Sunnah? No! Of
course not.
Let me give you a concrete example, which might help clarify this for
you. The Qur'an prohibits drinking. Now, if a person says "I am a
Muslim" and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer, does this now mean
that Islam teaches that people should drink beer? Of course not, and
only an idiot would think so.
Do you see my point?
>It is very natural to think that
>the author/authors of the Quran had no idea that the socio-economic
>structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm
>shifts in 1400 years in the western cultures - first with the end of
>the feudal era and the rise of commerce, second with the industrial
>revolution. Well, rules have changed and the status quo has driven
>Muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a "heathen" world.
>Muslim countries have failed economically, they were unable to
>accumulate any wealth - directly due to the uncomprimising economic
>rules in the Quran. In fact, the rise of Islam can easily be modeled
>after the pyramid effect - you do not produce any wealth at home,
>but increase your wealth by conquering places.
You are judging Islam here on capitalist terms. Capitalism is an
ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise
their wealth -- this assumption is in opposition to Islamic teachings.
To say Islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking --
Islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be
capitalist. (This does not mean that Islam does not support a
free-market -- for it does in general -- but there are other parts of
capitalism which are opposed to Islam as I understand it.)
>When this stopped,
>you (and I) were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour.
>No capital, no industry, very poor social services - the education
>level in Muslim countries are the lowest in the world, the health
>statistics are miserable etc..
One can postulate numerous reasons for this. Your theory is that it is
because Islam is not secularist and capitalist, etc. etc.
Selim, I will give you a clear historical example to show you the
fallacy of your views if you think (as you obviously do) that
Islam => lack of education and power.
For a large part of history, the Islamic world was very powerful. For a
significant section of history, the Islamic world was the foremost in
the sciences. So to say that Islam is, for example, anti-education is
completely absurd. You try to blame this situation on Islam -- history
shows that your conclusion is false and that, instead, there must be
other reasons for this situation.
>You blame Muslims for not following the Quran, but I blame Muslims
>for following the Quran.
Well, Selim, your viewpoint on women in Islam makes me question the extent
of your knowledge of Islam. I really think you are not
knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the Muslims are
following the Qur'an or not.
>Your idea is baseless from historical
>facts, it is a poor utopia,
The Islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one
stage -- yet somehow, in your theory, it is by "following the Qur'an"
that Muslims are backwards in education. Selim, it is _your_ thesis
that is anti-historical, for you conveniently overlook this historical
fact which contradicts your theory.
>while my ideas are derived from social
>and economic history.
You have certainly not shown this; you have merely stated it.
So far, it seems to me that your view on Islam being anti-education is
quite contrary to history. That you are so convinced of your views
makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of
this.
>My solution to all Muslims is simple:
>CUT THE CRAP,
I think, Selim, you should consider taking your own advice.
>GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT
Here too.
>AND WORK HARD TO REVERSE
>THE EFFECTS OF 1300 YEARS OF IGNORANCE.
Selim, you have such conviction of your viewpoint, yet you demonstrate
ignorance, not only of Islam but also of Islamic history (particularly
with respect to Muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so I
think). Yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history!
Selim, if I remember right, you say in one of your earlier posts that
you are an apostate from Islam. I think you should slow down and start
thinking clearly about the issues, and start _reading_ some of our
postings about Islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously
have.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 208
In 1993Apr420025321409ennewseasasuedu guncerenuxhaeasasuedu Selim Guncer writes
You might not like what Bernard Lewis writes about label him
as a Zionist or such to discredit him etc
You misrepresent me Selim The hard evidence for my statements about
his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book
Orientalism by Edward Said Edward Said by the way is a Christian
not a Muslim
I think he is
pretty much objective in his treatment in Race and Slavery in
the Middle East since he clearly distinguishes between
slavery under Islam and the practice of slavery in other countries
like the US prior to the civil war He also does not conceal
that there are verses in the Quran which promote the liberation
of slaves What he doesnt and I dont think nobody can
deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be
abolished in Islamic countries Now you might rather conveniently
blame the practice of slavery on Muslims but the facts are out
there I also fail to see the relevance of the claim of Lewis being
a Zionist to what I wrote
Regarding Bernard Lewis
Him being a Zionist gives him a political motive for his
giving misrepresentations and halftruths about Islam
Read Orientalism by Edward Said see the evidence for yourself
In fact I may post some of it here if it isnt too long
They were encyclopaedic information
which anybody can access that slavery was abolished at certain
dates some 1200 years after Muhammed that this was the cause
of tensions in the Ottoman empire between the Arab slave traders
and the government etc We also have in the ASU library volumes
of British documents on slavery where reports and documents
concerning slavery all around the world can be found which I
checked some of the incidents Lewis mentions So I dont think
ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence
I havent read Lewiss article so I cant comment directly upon it and
have only spoken about his writings _in general_ so far that his
political motives make him a biased writer on Islam His antiIslamic
polemics as I understand it are often quite subtle and are often based
on telling halftruths
Again read Orientalism by Edward Said I am _not_ asking you to take
what I say on trust in fact I am urging you not to do so but to get
this book it is a wellknown book and check the evidence out for
_yourself_
The issue I raised was that slaves WERE USED FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES
when it was claimed that Islam prohibits extramarital sex
I wrote that the Prophet himself had concubines I wrote an
incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not
want his concubine to get pregnant etc which is contrary
to the notion that sex is for procreation only In other
words such claims are baseless in the Quran and the Hadith
If slavery is _in reality_ as opposed to in the practice of some
Muslims opposed by Islam then using slaves for sexual
purposes is necessarily opposed too
I seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you Islam is
not advocating slavery Slavery was an existing institution in the
7th century It advised on slaves being freed for good
deeds etc which is nothing new Many cultures saw this as a
good thing What is the problem here But I can argue rightfully
that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses
politically the Quran rewards the good slave so obey your
master and perhaps one day youll be free But it is very
understandable that I do not communicate with Muslims since
they assume the Quran is from a God and I think it is a rulebased
system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo
Slaves are a part of this system the subordination of women
so that their function in society boils down to childmaking
is a part of this system etc
I understand your point of view Selim I think rather it is _us_
who are not getting through to _you_
Some of the points you repeat above I have already answered before
Regarding women I have made posting after posting on this subject
showing that Islam is not antiwoman etc However have you been
completely ignoring my postings or just missing them I just reposted a
very good one under the title Islam and Women reposted from
socreligionislam If this has already disappeared from your site
then please email me telling me so and I will email you a copy of this
excellent article
IMHO your understanding of the issue of women in Islam is sadly deficient
Regarding slaves _my_ posting on slavery the second one I made
which is a repost of an article I wrote early last year is based
completely on the Quran and contains numerous Quranic verses and
hadiths to support its point of view
Our approaches are different you are arguing from a historical
standpoint and I am arguing directly from the teachings of the Quran
and hadiths Now just because people say they are Muslims and perform
a particular action does that automatically mean that their action is
part of Islam even if it is opposed by the Quran and Sunnah No Of
course not
Let me give you a concrete example which might help clarify this for
you The Quran prohibits drinking Now if a person says I am a
Muslim and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer does this now mean
that Islam teaches that people should drink beer Of course not and
only an idiot would think so
Do you see my point
It is very natural to think that
the authorauthors of the Quran had no idea that the socioeconomic
structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm
shifts in 1400 years in the western cultures first with the end of
the feudal era and the rise of commerce second with the industrial
revolution Well rules have changed and the status quo has driven
Muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a heathen world
Muslim countries have failed economically they were unable to
accumulate any wealth directly due to the uncomprimising economic
rules in the Quran In fact the rise of Islam can easily be modeled
after the pyramid effect you do not produce any wealth at home
but increase your wealth by conquering places
You are judging Islam here on capitalist terms Capitalism is an
ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise
their wealth this assumption is in opposition to Islamic teachings
To say Islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking
Islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be
capitalist This does not mean that Islam does not support a
freemarket for it does in general but there are other parts of
capitalism which are opposed to Islam as I understand it
When this stopped
you and I were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour
No capital no industry very poor social services the education
level in Muslim countries are the lowest in the world the health
statistics are miserable etc
One can postulate numerous reasons for this Your theory is that it is
because Islam is not secularist and capitalist etc etc
Selim I will give you a clear historical example to show you the
fallacy of your views if you think as you obviously do that
Islam lack of education and power
For a large part of history the Islamic world was very powerful For a
significant section of history the Islamic world was the foremost in
the sciences So to say that Islam is for example antieducation is
completely absurd You try to blame this situation on Islam history
shows that your conclusion is false and that instead there must be
other reasons for this situation
You blame Muslims for not following the Quran but I blame Muslims
for following the Quran
Well Selim your viewpoint on women in Islam makes me question the extent
of your knowledge of Islam I really think you are not
knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the Muslims are
following the Quran or not
Your idea is baseless from historical
facts it is a poor utopia
The Islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one
stage yet somehow in your theory it is by following the Quran
that Muslims are backwards in education Selim it is _your_ thesis
that is antihistorical for you conveniently overlook this historical
fact which contradicts your theory
while my ideas are derived from social
and economic history
You have certainly not shown this you have merely stated it
So far it seems to me that your view on Islam being antieducation is
quite contrary to history That you are so convinced of your views
makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of
this
My solution to all Muslims is simple
CUT THE CRAP
I think Selim you should consider taking your own advice
GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT
Here too
AND WORK HARD TO REVERSE
THE EFFECTS OF 1300 YEARS OF IGNORANCE
Selim you have such conviction of your viewpoint yet you demonstrate
ignorance not only of Islam but also of Islamic history particularly
with respect to Muslims being leaders of science till about 1400 or so I
think Yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history
Selim if I remember right you say in one of your earlier posts that
you are an apostate from Islam I think you should slow down and start
thinking clearly about the issues and start _reading_ some of our
postings about Islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously
have
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: nin
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Lines: 49
In article <1993Apr5.023044.19580@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
> because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men.
> Compare that with how homos are raised. Do a study and you will get my
> point.
Oh, Bobby. You're priceless. Did I ever tell you that?
My policy with Bobby's posts, should anyone give a damn, is to flick
through the thread at high speed, searching for posts of Bobby's which
have generated a whole pile of followups, then go in and extract the
hilarious quote inevitably present for .sig purposes. Works for me.
For the guy who said he's just arrived, and asked whether Bobby's for real,
you betcha. Welcome to alt.atheism, and rest assured that it gets worse.
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below. Is anyone
(Keith?) keeping a big file of such stuff?
"In Allah's infinite wisdom, the universe was created from nothing,
just by saying "Be", and it became. Therefore Allah exists."
--- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #1
"Wait. You just said that humans are rarely reasonable. Doesn't that
contradict atheism, where everything is explained through logic and
reason? This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false."
--- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #2
"Plus, to the believer, it would be contradictory
to the Quran for Allah not to exist."
--- Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah, #3
and now
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say "Mom",
because of the love of their mom. It makes for more virile men. Compare
that with how homos are raised. Do a study and you will get my point."
-- Bobby Mozumder being Islamically Rigorous on alt.atheism
Mmmmm. Quality *and* quantity from the New Voice of Islam (pbuh).
Cheers
Simon
--
Simon Clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.
after prepro From simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost nin
Organization Department of Computer Science Warwick University England
Lines 49
In article 1993Apr502304419580ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
because of the love of their mom It makes for more virile men
Compare that with how homos are raised Do a study and you will get my
point
Oh Bobby Youre priceless Did I ever tell you that
My policy with Bobbys posts should anyone give a damn is to flick
through the thread at high speed searching for posts of Bobbys which
have generated a whole pile of followups then go in and extract the
hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes Works for me
For the guy who said hes just arrived and asked whether Bobbys for real
you betcha Welcome to altatheism and rest assured that it gets worse
I have a few pearls of wisdom from Bobby which I reproduce below Is anyone
Keith keeping a big file of such stuff
In Allahs infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing
just by saying Be and it became Therefore Allah exists
Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 1
Wait You just said that humans are rarely reasonable Doesnt that
contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and
reason This is THE contradiction in atheism that proves it false
Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 2
Plus to the believer it would be contradictory
to the Quran for Allah not to exist
Bobby Mozumder proving the existence of Allah 3
and now
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that say Mom
because of the love of their mom It makes for more virile men Compare
that with how homos are raised Do a study and you will get my point
Bobby Mozumder being Islamically Rigorous on altatheism
Mmmmm Quality and quantity from the New Voice of Islam pbuh
Cheers
Simon
Simon Clippingdale simondcswarwickacuk
Department of Computer Science Tel 44 203 523296
University of Warwick FAX 44 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL UK
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 31
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr19.230236.18227@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis) writes:
> In article <1quule$5re@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> |>
> |> AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
> |> May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
> |>
> |> Does anyone know more about this? How much, to attend????
> Here are some selected excerpts of the invitation/registration form they
> sent me. Retyped without permission, all typo's are mine.
Thanks for typing that in, Steven. Sounds like a "fall back and
regroup" strategy session.
I wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering
cover letter:
"Invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a
strong committment to space program development and have been
influential in its advancement. We sincerely hope you will be able to
attend."
Wow! I wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space
convinced them to send me this letter?
I hope you decide to go, Pat. The Net can use some eyes and ears
there...
Bill Higgins | If we can put a man on the Moon, why can't
Fermilab | we put a man on the Moon? -- Bill Engfer
higgins@fnal.fnal.gov | If we can put a man on the Moon, why can't
higgins@fnal.Bitnet | we put a woman on the Moon? -- Bill Higgins
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 31
Distribution na
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1993Apr1923023618227aiojscnasagov davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis writes
In article 1quule5reaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
Does anyone know more about this How much to attend
Here are some selected excerpts of the invitationregistration form they
sent me Retyped without permission all typos are mine
Thanks for typing that in Steven Sounds like a fall back and
regroup strategy session
I wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering
cover letter
Invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a
strong committment to space program development and have been
influential in its advancement We sincerely hope you will be able to
attend
Wow I wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space
convinced them to send me this letter
I hope you decide to go Pat The Net can use some eyes and ears
there
Bill Higgins If we can put a man on the Moon why cant
Fermilab we put a man on the Moon Bill Engfer
higginsfnalfnalgov If we can put a man on the Moon why cant
higginsfnalBitnet we put a woman on the Moon Bill Higgins
preprocess doc From: rick@trystro.uucp (Richard Nickle)
Subject: Re: How to read sci.space without netnews
Organization: The Trystro System (617) 625-7155 v.32/v.42bis
Lines: 27
In article <C5LJG5.17n.1@cs.cmu.edu> mwm+@cs.cmu.edu (Mark Maimone) writes:
>In article <734975852.F00001@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>>If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci.space,
>>but doesn't have an Internet feed (or has a cryptic Internet
>>feed), I would be willing to feed it to them.
>
> Kudos to Mark for his generous offer, but there already exists a
>large (email-based) forwarding system for sci.space posts: Space Digest.
>It mirrors sci.space exactly, and provides simple two-way communication.
>
I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didn't
have email in the first place.
If anybody in the Boston area wants a sci.space feed by honest-to-gosh UUCP
(no weird offline malreaders), let me know. I'll also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one, especially the Boston Chapter of NSS (which I keep forgetting
to re-attend).
>Questions, comments to space-request@isu.isunet.edu
>--
>Mark Maimone phone: +1 (412) 268 - 7698
>Carnegie Mellon Computer Science email: mwm@cmu.edu
--
richard nickle rick@trystro.uucp 617-625-7155 v.32/v.42bis
think!trystro!rick somerville massachusetts
after prepro From ricktrystrouucp Richard Nickle
Subject Re How to read scispace without netnews
Organization The Trystro System 617 6257155 v32v42bis
Lines 27
In article mwmcscmuedu Mark Maimone writes
In article 734975852F00001permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
If anyone knows anyone else who would like to get scispace
but doesnt have an Internet feed or has a cryptic Internet
feed I would be willing to feed it to them
Kudos to Mark for his generous offer but there already exists a
large emailbased forwarding system for scispace posts Space Digest
It mirrors scispace exactly and provides simple twoway communication
I think Mark was talking about making it available to people who didnt
have email in the first place
If anybody in the Boston area wants a scispace feed by honesttogosh UUCP
no weird offline malreaders let me know Ill also hand out logins to
anyone who wants one especially the Boston Chapter of NSS which I keep forgetting
to reattend
Questions comments to spacerequestisuisunetedu
Mark Maimone phone 1 412 268 7698
Carnegie Mellon Computer Science email mwmcmuedu
richard nickle ricktrystrouucp 6176257155 v32v42bis
thinktrystrorick somerville massachusetts
preprocess doc From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re)
Subject: A fundamental contradiction (was: A visit from JWs)
Reply-To: lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA
Organization: MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines: 35
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>"Will" is "self-determination". In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God. All "will", therefore, is "free will".
The above is probably not the most representative paragraph, but I
thought I'd hop on, anyway...
What strikes me as self-contradicting in the fable of Lucifer's
fall - which, by the way, I seem to recall to be more speculation
than based on biblical text, but my ex RCism may be showing - is
that, as Benedikt pointed out, Lucifer had perfect nature, yet he
had the free will to "choose" evil. But where did that choice come
from?
We know from Genesis that Eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a
tempter which many assume was Satan, but how did Lucifer discover,
invent, create, call the action what you will, something that God
had not given origin to?
Also, where in the Bible is there mention of Lucifer's free will?
We make a big fuss about mankind having free will, but it strikes me
as being an after-the-fact rationalisation, and in fact, like
salvation, not one that all Christians believe in identically.
At least in my mind, salvation and free will are very tightly
coupled, but then my theology was Roman Catholic...
Still, how do theologian explain Lucifer's fall? If Lucifer had
perfect nature (did man?) how could he fall? How could he execute an
act that (a) contradicted his nature and (b) in effect cause evil to
exist for the first time?
--
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA) - tab stops at four.
after prepro From lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re
Subject A fundamental contradiction was A visit from JWs
ReplyTo lucioproximaAltZA
Organization MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines 35
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
Will is selfdetermination In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God All will therefore is free will
The above is probably not the most representative paragraph but I
thought Id hop on anyway
What strikes me as selfcontradicting in the fable of Lucifers
fall which by the way I seem to recall to be more speculation
than based on biblical text but my ex RCism may be showing is
that as Benedikt pointed out Lucifer had perfect nature yet he
had the free will to choose evil But where did that choice come
from
We know from Genesis that Eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a
tempter which many assume was Satan but how did Lucifer discover
invent create call the action what you will something that God
had not given origin to
Also where in the Bible is there mention of Lucifers free will
We make a big fuss about mankind having free will but it strikes me
as being an afterthefact rationalisation and in fact like
salvation not one that all Christians believe in identically
At least in my mind salvation and free will are very tightly
coupled but then my theology was Roman Catholic
Still how do theologian explain Lucifers fall If Lucifer had
perfect nature did man how could he fall How could he execute an
act that a contradicted his nature and b in effect cause evil to
exist for the first time
Lucio de Re lucioproximaAltZA tab stops at four
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr5.191011.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 53
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <C4zHKw.3Dn@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <2736@snap> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
>>This bit interests me. How much automatic control is there? Is it
>>purely autonomous or is there some degree of ground control?
>
> The "stick-and-rudder man" is always the onboard computer. The computer
> normally gets its orders from a stored program, but they can be overridden
> from the ground.
>
>>How is
>>the transition from aerodynamic flight (if thats what it is) to hover
>>accomplished? This is the really new part...
>
> It's also one of the tricky parts. There are four different ideas, and
> DC-X will probably end up trying all of them. (This is from talking to
> Mitch Burnside Clapp, who's one of the DC-X test pilots, at Making Orbit.)
>
> (1) Pop a drogue chute from the nose, light the engines once the thing
> stabilizes base-first. Simple and reliable. Heavy shock loads
> on an area of structure that doesn't otherwise carry major loads.
> Needs a door in the "hot" part of the structure, a door whose
> operation is mission-critical.
>
> (2) Switch off pitch stability -- the DC is aerodynamically unstable at
> subsonic speeds -- wait for it to flip, and catch it at 180
> degrees, then light engines. A bit scary.
>
> (3) Light the engines and use thrust vectoring to push the tail around.
> Probably the preferred method in the long run. Tricky because
> of the fuel-feed plumbing: the fuel will start off in the tops
> of the tanks, then slop down to the bottoms during the flip.
> Keeping the engines properly fed will be complicated.
>
> (4) Build up speed in a dive, then pull up hard (losing a lot of speed,
> this thing's L/D is not that great) until it's headed up and
> the vertical velocity drops to zero, at which point it starts
> to fall tail-first. Light engines. Also a bit scary, and you
> probably don't have enough altitude left to try again.
> --
> All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
> - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
Why do the Martian Landing thing.. Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).
Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts?? Parachute in then...
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
Please enlighten me... Ignorance is easy to correct. make a mistake and
everyone will let you know you messed up..
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
ArticleID aurora1993Apr51910111
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 53
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 2736snap pajukcogecmrc Paul Johnson writes
This bit interests me How much automatic control is there Is it
purely autonomous or is there some degree of ground control
The stickandrudder man is always the onboard computer The computer
normally gets its orders from a stored program but they can be overridden
from the ground
How is
the transition from aerodynamic flight if thats what it is to hover
accomplished This is the really new part
Its also one of the tricky parts There are four different ideas and
DCX will probably end up trying all of them This is from talking to
Mitch Burnside Clapp whos one of the DCX test pilots at Making Orbit
1 Pop a drogue chute from the nose light the engines once the thing
stabilizes basefirst Simple and reliable Heavy shock loads
on an area of structure that doesnt otherwise carry major loads
Needs a door in the hot part of the structure a door whose
operation is missioncritical
2 Switch off pitch stability the DC is aerodynamically unstable at
subsonic speeds wait for it to flip and catch it at 180
degrees then light engines A bit scary
3 Light the engines and use thrust vectoring to push the tail around
Probably the preferred method in the long run Tricky because
of the fuelfeed plumbing the fuel will start off in the tops
of the tanks then slop down to the bottoms during the flip
Keeping the engines properly fed will be complicated
4 Build up speed in a dive then pull up hard losing a lot of speed
this things LD is not that great until its headed up and
the vertical velocity drops to zero at which point it starts
to fall tailfirst Light engines Also a bit scary and you
probably dont have enough altitude left to try again
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way
Why do the Martian Landing thing Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious
Why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts Parachute in then
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Please enlighten me Ignorance is easy to correct make a mistake and
everyone will let you know you messed up
preprocess doc From: stephens@geod.emr.ca (Dave Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
Nntp-Posting-Host: ngis.geod.emr.ca
Organization: Dept. of Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Lines: 21
nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
>Why not?? If you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be
>activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion
>beacon, to take a directional plot on??
>Wierd or what?
>==
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
There is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites
in the process of being phased out right now. The TRANSIT/OSCAR satellites
are being replaced by GPS. Or were you thinking of deep space navigation,
which is best done with doppler/VLBI/ stellar measurements. I do not think
additional radio beacons would help much.
--
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Internet: stephens@geod.emr.ca
after prepro From stephensgeodemrca Dave Stephenson
Subject Re Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
NntpPostingHost ngisgeodemrca
Organization Dept of Energy Mines and Resources Ottawa
Lines 21
nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
Why not If you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion
beacon to take a directional plot on
Wierd or what
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
There is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites
in the process of being phased out right now The TRANSITOSCAR satellites
are being replaced by GPS Or were you thinking of deep space navigation
which is best done with dopplerVLBI stellar measurements I do not think
additional radio beacons would help much
Dave Stephenson
Geological Survey of Canada
Ottawa Ontario Canada
Internet stephensgeodemrca
preprocess doc From: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov (James Felder)
Subject: Re: "So help you God" in court?
Organization: NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Reply-To: spbach@lerc.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper3.lerc.nasa.gov
In article 013423TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu, Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
->In article <1993Apr9.151914.1885@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu
->(Mark McCullough) says:
->>
->>In article <monack.733980580@helium> monack@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (david
->>n->>monack) writes:
->>>Another issue is that by having to request to not be required to
->>>recite the "so help me God" part of the oath, a theistic jury may be
->>>prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not
->>>at all relevant to the case.
->>>
->>>What is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or
->>>affirmation?
->>>
->>>Dave
Sorry for using a follow-up to respond, but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news
when it couldn't keep up.
When the you are asked to swear "So help you god" and you have to say it, ask which one; Jesus,
Allah, Vishnu, Zues, Odin. Get them to be specific. Don't be obnoxious, just humbly ask, then
quitely sit back and watch the fun.
---
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James L. Felder |
Sverdrup Technology,Inc. | phone: 216-891-4019
NASA Lewis Research Center |
Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: jfelder@lerc.nasa.gov
"Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, other people gargle"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From spbachlercnasagov James Felder
Subject Re So help you God in court
Organization NASA Lewis Resaerch Center
Lines 35
Distribution world
ReplyTo spbachlercnasagov
NNTPPostingHost hopper3lercnasagov
In article 013423TAN102psuvmpsuedu Andrew Newell writes
In article 1993Apr91519141885daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu
Mark McCullough says
In article monackheliumgasuugarizonaedu david
nmonack writes
Another issue is that by having to request to not be required to
recite the so help me God part of the oath a theistic jury may be
prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not
at all relevant to the case
What is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or
affirmation
Dave
Sorry for using a followup to respond but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news
when it couldnt keep up
When the you are asked to swear So help you god and you have to say it ask which one Jesus
Allah Vishnu Zues Odin Get them to be specific Dont be obnoxious just humbly ask then
quitely sit back and watch the fun
James L Felder
Sverdrup TechnologyInc phone 2168914019
NASA Lewis Research Center
Cleveland Ohio 44135 email jfelderlercnasagov
Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1993Apr19.231641.21652@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr. Maurice Bucaille is that
>while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for
>a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
>(or anywhere in the Qur'an).
There is no notion of heliocentric, or even galacticentric either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My sole intention was learning to fly."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1993Apr1923164121652monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for
a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
or anywhere in the Quran
There is no notion of heliocentric or even galacticentric either
My sole intention was learning to fly
preprocess doc From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 31
keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>>instead. The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>>Why wait until they commit the crime? Why not implant such devices in
>>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?
>Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning. You are proposing to punish people
>*before* they commit a crime? What justification do you have for this?
No, Mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism, not treating the
electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer. What he is saying is that
the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential
criminals. This may not, on the surface, sound like a bad thing, but who
defines what a potential criminal is? If the government of the day decides
that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal
then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice, this is not
conducive to a free society.
Mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people
is an impropriety upon that person, regardless of what type of crime or
what chance of recidivism there is. Basically you see the criminal justice
system as a punishment for the offender and possibly, therefore, a deterrant
to future offenders. Mathew sees it, most probably, as a means of
rehabilitation for the offender. So he was being cynical at you, okay?
Jeff.
after prepro From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re mathew writes
Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists
Sorry I dont follow your reasoning You are proposing to punish people
before they commit a crime What justification do you have for this
No Mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism not treating the
electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer What he is saying is that
the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential
criminals This may not on the surface sound like a bad thing but who
defines what a potential criminal is If the government of the day decides
that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal
then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice this is not
conducive to a free society
Mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people
is an impropriety upon that person regardless of what type of crime or
what chance of recidivism there is Basically you see the criminal justice
system as a punishment for the offender and possibly therefore a deterrant
to future offenders Mathew sees it most probably as a means of
rehabilitation for the offender So he was being cynical at you okay
Jeff
preprocess doc From: nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Association Against Having Fun With Your Clothes On
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr5.020504.19326@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
[...]
>One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
>God a form. God does not have a "face".
Wait a minute. I thought you said that Allah (I presume Allah == God) was unknowable,
and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him.
You say that God does not have a "face". Doesn't the bible say that God has hindparts?
How do you suggest I decide which (if any) of you is right? Or are you both right?
God has hindparts but no face? Or does your use of quotation marks:
God does not have a "face".
allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like?
>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder
-Norman
after prepro From nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Association Against Having Fun With Your Clothes On
Lines 23
In article 1993Apr502050419326ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
[]
One of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit God by giving
God a form God does not have a face
Wait a minute I thought you said that Allah I presume Allah God was unknowable
and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him
You say that God does not have a face Doesnt the bible say that God has hindparts
How do you suggest I decide which if any of you is right Or are you both right
God has hindparts but no face Or does your use of quotation marks
God does not have a face
allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like
Peace
Bobby Mozumder
Norman
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 78
In <1993Apr2.150038.2521@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
>In article <1993Apr1.204657.29451@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>This system would produce enough energy to drive the accelerator,
>>>perhaps with some left over. A very high power (100's of MW CW or
>>>quasi CW), very sharp proton beam would be required, but this appears
>>>achievable using a linear accelerator. The biggest question mark
>>>would be the lead target chemistry and the on-line processing of all
>>>the elements being incinerated.
>>
>>Paul, quite frankly I'll believe that this is really going to work on
>>the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
>>tons in one end and get (relatively) clean material out the other end,
>>plus be able to run it off its own residual power. Sounds almost like
>>perpetual motion, doesn't it?
>Fred, the honest thing to do would be to admit your criticism on
>scientific grounds was invalid, rather than pretend you were actually
>talking about engineering feasibility. Given you postings, I can't
>say I am surprised, though.
Well, pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just
tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying
to recover the energy from this process (which is at least trying to
go the 'right' way on the energy curve). Now, where *did* I put those
sackcloth and ashes?
[I was not and am not 'pretending' anything; I am *so* pleased you are
not surprised, though.]
>No, it is nothing like perpetual motion.
Note that I didn't say it was perpetual motion, or even that it
sounded like perpetual motion; the phrase was "sounds almost like
perpetual motion", which I, at least, consider a somewhat different
propposition than the one you elect to criticize. Perhaps I should
beg your pardon for being *too* precise in my use of language?
>The physics is well
>understood; the energy comes from fission of actinides in subcritical
>assemblies. Folks have talked about spallation reactors since the
>1950s. Pulsed spallation neutron sources are in use today as research
>tools. Accelerator design has been improving, particularly with
>superconducting accelerating cavities, which helps feasibility. Los
>Alamos has expertise in high current accelerators (LAMPF), so I
>believe they know what they are talking about.
I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different 'run' for each
actinide) when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
(relatively) clean material out the other. Once the costs,
technological risks, etc., are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun. Sure, it's possible
and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable
approach?
And I still wonder at what sort of 'burning' rate you could get with
something like this, as opposed to what kind of energy you would
really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power
with and without the energy recovery. Are we talking ounces, pounds,
or tons (grams, kilograms, or metric tons, for you SI fans) of
material and are we talking days, weeks, months, or years (days,
weeks, months or years, for you SI fans -- hmmm, still using a
non-decimated time scale, I see ;-))?
>The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
>built is that there isn't any reason to do so. Natural uranium is
>still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
>technically reasonable.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 78
In 1993Apr21500382521csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes
In article 1993Apr120465729451mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
This system would produce enough energy to drive the accelerator
perhaps with some left over A very high power 100s of MW CW or
quasi CW very sharp proton beam would be required but this appears
achievable using a linear accelerator The biggest question mark
would be the lead target chemistry and the online processing of all
the elements being incinerated
Paul quite frankly Ill believe that this is really going to work on
the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end
plus be able to run it off its own residual power Sounds almost like
perpetual motion doesnt it
Fred the honest thing to do would be to admit your criticism on
scientific grounds was invalid rather than pretend you were actually
talking about engineering feasibility Given you postings I cant
say I am surprised though
Well pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just
tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying
to recover the energy from this process which is at least trying to
go the right way on the energy curve Now where did I put those
sackcloth and ashes
[I was not and am not pretending anything I am so pleased you are
not surprised though]
No it is nothing like perpetual motion
Note that I didnt say it was perpetual motion or even that it
sounded like perpetual motion the phrase was sounds almost like
perpetual motion which I at least consider a somewhat different
propposition than the one you elect to criticize Perhaps I should
beg your pardon for being too precise in my use of language
The physics is well
understood the energy comes from fission of actinides in subcritical
assemblies Folks have talked about spallation reactors since the
1950s Pulsed spallation neutron sources are in use today as research
tools Accelerator design has been improving particularly with
superconducting accelerating cavities which helps feasibility Los
Alamos has expertise in high current accelerators LAMPF so I
believe they know what they are talking about
I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different run for each
actinide when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
relatively clean material out the other Once the costs
technological risks etc are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun Sure its possible
and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable
approach
And I still wonder at what sort of burning rate you could get with
something like this as opposed to what kind of energy you would
really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power
with and without the energy recovery Are we talking ounces pounds
or tons grams kilograms or metric tons for you SI fans of
material and are we talking days weeks months or years days
weeks months or years for you SI fans hmmm still using a
nondecimated time scale I see
The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
built is that there isnt any reason to do so Natural uranium is
still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
technically reasonable
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 191
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>Much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself,
>this is probably the wrong group for it. The only relevance here
>is that you don't seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment
>actually is, and when it is murder. That is, when you tell us murder
>is wrong, you are using a term you have not yet defined.
Well, I've said that when an innocent person has been executed, this is
objectively a murder. However, who is at blame is another question.
It seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions--
realizing the risks--is to blame.
>There is a *probability* of
>killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air, and
>there is a *probability* of killing an innocent person when the
>state administers a system of capital punishment. So when you do
>either, you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or
>later result in the killing of an innocent person.
Yes, but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing
any raondom activity. Presumably, you had not isolated yourself totally
from the rest of society because of this.
>>And, driving will kill people, as will airlines, but people continue to do
>>both.
>Driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling
>prisoners by Courts. They are risks that we take upon ourselves
>willingly.
And I argue that our law system is a similar risk. Perhaps an innocent
person will be punished someday, but we work to prevent this. In fact,
many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment
of innocents.
>If our own driving kills someone else, then sure, there is a moral
>issue. I know at least one person who was involved in a fatal
>accident, and they felt vey guilty afterwards.
But, such accidents are to be totally expected, given the numner of vehicals
on the road. Again, the blame is on society.
>>No I'm not. This is what you said. You were saying that if there were such
>>a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed
>>, it would still be the fault of the state, since it did the actual killing.
>No, I just commented that the state does the killing. It does not
>depend on there being false witnesses. How could it? The state
>does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes
Yes, but the state is not at fault in such a case. The state can only do
so much to prevent false witnesses.
>>It is possible. So, what are you trying to say, that capital punishment
>>is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating
>>the system?
>I'm saying capital punishment is murder, period. Not because of
>this that and the other, but because it involves taking human life.
>That's *my* definition of murder. I make no appeals to dictionaries
>or to "objective" morals.
Okay, so this is what you call murder. But, the question is whether or not
all such "murders" are wrong. Are you saying that all taking of human life
is wrong, no matter what the circumstances?
>If we, as a society, decide to murder someone, then we should say
>that, and lists our reasons for doing so, and live with the moral
>consequences. We should not play word games and pretend that
>murder isn't murder. And that's *my* opinion about how society
>ought to be run.
But, this is basically how it works. Society accepts the risk that an
innocent person will be murdered by execution. And, every member of
society shares this blame. And, most people's definitions of murder
include some sort of malicious intent, which is not involved in an
execution, is it?
>>But, we were trying to discuss an objective moral system, or at least its
>>possibilty. What ramifications does your personal system have on an
>>objective one?
>No, we were not discussing an objective moral system. I was showing
>you that you didn't have one, because, for one thing, you were incapable
>of defining the terms in it, for example, "murder".
Murder violates the golden rule. Executions do not, because by allowing
it at all, society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the
innocent victim is.
>>We're not talking about reading minds, we are just talking about knowing the
>>truth. Yes, we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth, but
>>the court systems work on a principle of knowing the "truth" "beyond a
>>reasonable doubt."
>Sorry, but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately. Here
>is what you said:
> "And, since we are looking totally objectively at this case,
> then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to
> execute the person or not. If the intent is malicious and
> unfair, then the execution would be murder."
>What you are doing now is to slide into another claim, which is
>quite different. The jury being *persuaded* beyond a serious
>doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond
>a serious doubt.
Reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction
was moral or not. But, in an objective system, only the absolute truth
matters, and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth. That
is, twelve members must be convinced of a truth.
>Moreover, a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background
>may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence
>that you and I would laugh at.
But then, if we read the minds of these people, we would know that the
conviction was unfair.
>>But, would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds? If we assume that
>>it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth, why is it so much less
>>fair, in your opinion, if we only have a good approximation of the absolute
>>truth?
>It's not a question of fairness. Your claim, which I have quoted
>above is a claim about whether we can *know* it was fair, so as to
>be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder.
Yes, while we could objectively determine the difference (if we knew all
possible information), we can't always determine the difference in our
flawed system. I think that our system is almost as good as possible,
but it still isn't objectively perfect. You see, it doesn't matter if
we *know* it is fair or not. Objectively, it is either fair or it is not.
>Now there's a huge difference. If we can read minds, we can know,
>and if we cannot read minds, we can know nothing. The difference
>is not in degree of fairness, but in what we can know.
But what we know has no effect on an objective system.
>>I think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system, if we are
>>clear on which goals it is supposed to promote.
>I'm not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that I am
>pretty sure does not exist.
Why are you so sure?
>I simply want people to confront reality. *My* reality, remember.
Why is *your* reality important?
>In this case, the reality is that, "ideal theories' apart, we can
>never know, even after the fact, about the fairness of the justice
>system. For every innocent person released from Death Row, there
>may have been a dozen innocent people executed, or a hundred, or
>none at all. We simply don't know.
But, we can assume that the system is fairly decent, at least most likely.
And, you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a
totally ideal and objective system.
>Now what are we going to do? On the one hand, we can pretend
>that we have an 'ideal' theory, and that we can know things we can
>never know, and the Justie System is fair, and that we can wave a
>magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder, and go
>on our way.
Well, we can have an ideal system, but the working system can not be ideal.
We can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to
the ideal system as possible.
>On the other hand, we can recognize that all Justice has a small
>- we hope - probability of punishing the innocent, and that in the
>end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic
>consequences of the systems we set up, and then say, "Well, here
>we go, murdering again." Maybe some of us will even say "Gee, I
>wonder if all this is strictly necessary?"
Yes, we all bear the responsibility. Most people seem willing to do this.
>I think that the second is preferable in that if requires people
>to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society, instead
>of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word
>games.
We must realize the consequences of all our actions. Why do you keep
separating the justice system from the pack?
>And lest I forget, I also don't think we have an objective moral
>system, and I believe I only have to take that idea seriously
>when someone presents evidence of it.
I don't think our country has an objective system, but I think such an
objective system can exist, in theory. Without omniscience, an objective
system is not possible in practice.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself
this is probably the wrong group for it The only relevance here
is that you dont seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment
actually is and when it is murder That is when you tell us murder
is wrong you are using a term you have not yet defined
Well Ive said that when an innocent person has been executed this is
objectively a murder However who is at blame is another question
It seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions
realizing the risksis to blame
There is a probability of
killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air and
there is a probability of killing an innocent person when the
state administers a system of capital punishment So when you do
either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or
later result in the killing of an innocent person
Yes but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing
any raondom activity Presumably you had not isolated yourself totally
from the rest of society because of this
And driving will kill people as will airlines but people continue to do
both
Driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling
prisoners by Courts They are risks that we take upon ourselves
willingly
And I argue that our law system is a similar risk Perhaps an innocent
person will be punished someday but we work to prevent this In fact
many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment
of innocents
If our own driving kills someone else then sure there is a moral
issue I know at least one person who was involved in a fatal
accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards
But such accidents are to be totally expected given the numner of vehicals
on the road Again the blame is on society
No Im not This is what you said You were saying that if there were such
a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed
it would still be the fault of the state since it did the actual killing
No I just commented that the state does the killing It does not
depend on there being false witnesses How could it The state
does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes
Yes but the state is not at fault in such a case The state can only do
so much to prevent false witnesses
It is possible So what are you trying to say that capital punishment
is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating
the system
Im saying capital punishment is murder period Not because of
this that and the other but because it involves taking human life
Thats my definition of murder I make no appeals to dictionaries
or to objective morals
Okay so this is what you call murder But the question is whether or not
all such murders are wrong Are you saying that all taking of human life
is wrong no matter what the circumstances
If we as a society decide to murder someone then we should say
that and lists our reasons for doing so and live with the moral
consequences We should not play word games and pretend that
murder isnt murder And thats my opinion about how society
ought to be run
But this is basically how it works Society accepts the risk that an
innocent person will be murdered by execution And every member of
society shares this blame And most peoples definitions of murder
include some sort of malicious intent which is not involved in an
execution is it
But we were trying to discuss an objective moral system or at least its
possibilty What ramifications does your personal system have on an
objective one
No we were not discussing an objective moral system I was showing
you that you didnt have one because for one thing you were incapable
of defining the terms in it for example murder
Murder violates the golden rule Executions do not because by allowing
it at all society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the
innocent victim is
Were not talking about reading minds we are just talking about knowing the
truth Yes we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth but
the court systems work on a principle of knowing the truth beyond a
reasonable doubt
Sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately Here
is what you said
And since we are looking totally objectively at this case
then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to
execute the person or not If the intent is malicious and
unfair then the execution would be murder
What you are doing now is to slide into another claim which is
quite different The jury being persuaded beyond a serious
doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond
a serious doubt
Reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction
was moral or not But in an objective system only the absolute truth
matters and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth That
is twelve members must be convinced of a truth
Moreover a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background
may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence
that you and I would laugh at
But then if we read the minds of these people we would know that the
conviction was unfair
But would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds If we assume that
it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth why is it so much less
fair in your opinion if we only have a good approximation of the absolute
truth
Its not a question of fairness Your claim which I have quoted
above is a claim about whether we can know it was fair so as to
be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder
Yes while we could objectively determine the difference if we knew all
possible information we cant always determine the difference in our
flawed system I think that our system is almost as good as possible
but it still isnt objectively perfect You see it doesnt matter if
we know it is fair or not Objectively it is either fair or it is not
Now theres a huge difference If we can read minds we can know
and if we cannot read minds we can know nothing The difference
is not in degree of fairness but in what we can know
But what we know has no effect on an objective system
I think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system if we are
clear on which goals it is supposed to promote
Im not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that I am
pretty sure does not exist
Why are you so sure
I simply want people to confront reality My reality remember
Why is your reality important
In this case the reality is that ideal theories apart we can
never know even after the fact about the fairness of the justice
system For every innocent person released from Death Row there
may have been a dozen innocent people executed or a hundred or
none at all We simply dont know
But we can assume that the system is fairly decent at least most likely
And you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a
totally ideal and objective system
Now what are we going to do On the one hand we can pretend
that we have an ideal theory and that we can know things we can
never know and the Justie System is fair and that we can wave a
magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder and go
on our way
Well we can have an ideal system but the working system can not be ideal
We can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to
the ideal system as possible
On the other hand we can recognize that all Justice has a small
we hope probability of punishing the innocent and that in the
end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic
consequences of the systems we set up and then say Well here
we go murdering again Maybe some of us will even say Gee I
wonder if all this is strictly necessary
Yes we all bear the responsibility Most people seem willing to do this
I think that the second is preferable in that if requires people
to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society instead
of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word
games
We must realize the consequences of all our actions Why do you keep
separating the justice system from the pack
And lest I forget I also dont think we have an objective moral
system and I believe I only have to take that idea seriously
when someone presents evidence of it
I dont think our country has an objective system but I think such an
objective system can exist in theory Without omniscience an objective
system is not possible in practice
keith
preprocess doc From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: First Spacewalk
Distribution: sci
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 13
In article <C5suMG.2rF.1@cs.cmu.edu+ flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]") writes:
+At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
+(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
+
+Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
+
+Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?
I, for one, would be an avid reader of a sci.space.ussr.what.really.
happened.
--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131
after prepro From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re First Spacewalk
Distribution sci
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 13
In article C5suMG2rF1cscmuedu flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm] writes
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
Alexei Leonov was a staged fake
Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged
Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination
I for one would be an avid reader of a scispaceussrwhatreally
happened
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: Requests
Lines: 53
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 53
In article <11857@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: Requests
>Date: 19 Apr 93 18:25:08 GMT
>In article <C5qLLG.4BC@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:
>>
(excess stuff deleted...)
> However, it seems that a local church elder has been getting
> revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level
> the area on May 3rd. He has independent corroboration from
> several friends, who apparently have had similar revelations. The
> 5.7 quake was, in fact, in response to a request from the lot of
> them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions.
>
> None of this would be terribly interesting, except for the amount
> of stir it has created in the area. Many, many people are taking
> these claims very seriously. There are some making plans to be
> out of the are on the target date. My local religious radio
> station devoted 4 hours of discussion on the topic.
>
> I even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the
> host that he would have a full account of my conversion on May
> 4th, provided my family and I survived the devastation and ruin
> that will invariably follow the quake.
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know of a similar incident about 3 years ago. A climatologist( Ithink
that was his profession) named Iben Browning predicted that an earthquake
would hit the New Madrid fault on Dec.3. Some schools in Missouri that were
on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day. Many people
evacuated New Madrid and other towns in teh are. I wouldn't be suprised if
there were more journalists in the area than residents. Of course, teh
earthquake never occured. HOw do I know about his? I used to live in
Southern Illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the
fault line. No we still had school... We laughed at the poor idiots who
believed the prediction. :):):):)
Bob, if you're wanting an excuse to convert to Christianity, you gonna have
to look elsewhere.
Tammy "No Trim" Healy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re Requests
Lines 53
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 53
In article 11857viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Requests
Date 19 Apr 93 182508 GMT
In article maynecsfsuedu writes
excess stuff deleted
However it seems that a local church elder has been getting
revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level
the area on May 3rd He has independent corroboration from
several friends who apparently have had similar revelations The
57 quake was in fact in response to a request from the lot of
them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions
None of this would be terribly interesting except for the amount
of stir it has created in the area Many many people are taking
these claims very seriously There are some making plans to be
out of the are on the target date My local religious radio
station devoted 4 hours of discussion on the topic
I even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the
host that he would have a full account of my conversion on May
4th provided my family and I survived the devastation and ruin
that will invariably follow the quake
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know of a similar incident about 3 years ago A climatologist Ithink
that was his profession named Iben Browning predicted that an earthquake
would hit the New Madrid fault on Dec3 Some schools in Missouri that were
on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day Many people
evacuated New Madrid and other towns in teh are I wouldnt be suprised if
there were more journalists in the area than residents Of course teh
earthquake never occured HOw do I know about his I used to live in
Southern Illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the
fault line No we still had school We laughed at the poor idiots who
believed the prediction
Bob if youre wanting an excuse to convert to Christianity you gonna have
to look elsewhere
Tammy No Trim Healy
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: sgi
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In article <1qjf31$o7t@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> In article <1qimbe$sp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #In article <1qif1g$fp3@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> #|> In article <1qialf$p2m@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #|>
|> #|> I forget the origin of the quote, but "I gotta use words when I talk to
|> #|> you". An atheist is one who lacks belief in gods, yes? If so, then
|> #|> it's entirely plausible that an atheist could dig Lenin or Lennon to
|> #|> such an extent that it might be considered "worship", and still be
|> #|> an atheist. Anything else seems to be Newspeak.
|> #
|> #Ask yourself the following question. Would you regard an ardent
|> #Nazi as a republican, simply because Germany no longer had a Kaiser?
|>
|> No, because that's based on false dichotomy. There are more options
|> than you present me.
And that, of course, is the point. You can't simply divide the
world into atheists and non-atheists on the basis of god-belief.
If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity, and
have nothing to say about behaviour, then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion.
But once you start talking about behaviour, then someone's suscept-
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you
are - I assume - worried about.
And in that area, what you care about is whether someone is sceptical,
critical and autonomous on the one hand, or gullible, excitable and
easily led on the other.
I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led. Whether they have a worship or belief
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization sgi
Lines 38
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NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1qjf31o7thorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1qimbespfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1qif1gfp3horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1qialfp2mfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I forget the origin of the quote but I gotta use words when I talk to
you An atheist is one who lacks belief in gods yes If so then
its entirely plausible that an atheist could dig Lenin or Lennon to
such an extent that it might be considered worship and still be
an atheist Anything else seems to be Newspeak
Ask yourself the following question Would you regard an ardent
Nazi as a republican simply because Germany no longer had a Kaiser
No because thats based on false dichotomy There are more options
than you present me
And that of course is the point You cant simply divide the
world into atheists and nonatheists on the basis of godbelief
If all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity and
have nothing to say about behaviour then belief in a supernatural
being is your criterion
But once you start talking about behaviour then someones suscept
ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you
are I assume worried about
And in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical
critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and
easily led on the other
I would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates
that a person is easily led Whether they have a worship or belief
in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be
beside the point
jon
preprocess doc From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 48
NNTP-Posting-Host: rtfm.sps.mot.com
In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
[deletions]
>
>The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie - any actions of
>Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
>the ruling. The book remains in circulation not by some independant
>will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers. The fatwa
>against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well. The
>crime was certainly a crime in progress (at many levels) and was being
>played out (and played up) in the the full view of the media.
>
>P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>of the "fasad" ruling.
If this is grounded firmly in Islam, as you claim, then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism, plain and simple.
Whether you like it or not, whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not, there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words.
It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs, got that?
You do not threaten the life of someone for words - when you do, you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position. If you support
threatening the life of someone for words, you are not yet civilized.
This is exactly where I, and many of the people I know, have to depart
from respecting the religions of others. When those beliefs allow and
encourage (by interpretation) the killing of non-physical opposition.
You, or I or anyone, are more than privledged to believe that someone,
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover, is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn his/her soul, refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with him/her, _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the "miscreants", or whatever, short of physical force.
But once you physically threaten, or support physical threats, you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape - with YOU as the rapist
who whines "She asked for it, look how she was dressed".
Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn't fly.
Dew
--
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637
after prepro From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Motorola Inc AustinTX
Lines 48
NNTPPostingHost rtfmspsmotcom
In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
[deletions]
The fatwa was levelled at the person of Rushdie any actions of
Rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of
the ruling The book remains in circulation not by some independant
will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers The fatwa
against the person of Rushdie encompasses his actions as well The
crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being
played out and played up in the the full view of the media
PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling
If this is grounded firmly in Islam as you claim then you have just
exposed Islam as the grounds for terrorism plain and simple
Whether you like it or not whether Rushdie acted like a total jerk or
not there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear
of their life for words
It simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the
worst possible way he could to insult Muslims and their beliefs got that
You do not threaten the life of someone for words when you do you
quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position If you support
threatening the life of someone for words you are not yet civilized
This is exactly where I and many of the people I know have to depart
from respecting the religions of others When those beliefs allow and
encourage by interpretation the killing of nonphysical opposition
You or I or anyone are more than privledged to believe that someone
whether it be Rushdie or Bush or Hussien or whover is beyond the pale
of civilized society and you can condemn hisher soul refuse to allow
any members of your association to interact with himher _peacably_
demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from
the miscreants or whatever short of physical force
But once you physically threaten or support physical threats you get
much closer to your earlier comparison of rape with YOU as the rapist
who whines She asked for it look how she was dressed
Blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesnt fly
Dew
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Distribution: na
<C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>
Lines: 119
In article <C5pxqs.LM5@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu>, bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill
Conner) says:
>
>dean.kaflowitz (decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com) wrote:
>
>: Now, what I am interested in is the original notion you were discussing
>: on moral free agency. That is, how can a god punish a person for
>: not believing in him when that person is only following his or her
>: nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or
>: her reason tells him or her, which is that there is no god?
>
>I think you're letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of
(WEBSTER: myth: "a traditional or legendary story...
...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.")
How does that qualify?
Indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance.
I've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as
"accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend.
Many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but
they don't meet the other criterions.
Also...
>Divine justice. According to the most fundamental doctrines of
>Christianity, When the first man sinned, he was at that time the
You accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to
launch your own xtian mythology. (This time meeting all the
requirements of myth.)
>salvation. The idea of punishment is based on the proposition that
>everyone knows (instinctively?) that God exists, is their creator and
Ah, but not everyone "knows" that god exists. So you have
a fallacy.
>There's nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to
>any reasonably Biblically literate Christian. The only controversy is
And that makes it true? Holding with the Bible rules out controversy?
Read the FAQ. If you've read it, you missed something, so re-read.
(Not a bad suggestion for anyone...I re-read it just before this.)
>with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
>means. When atheists claim that they do -not- know if God exists and
>don't know what He wants, they contradict the Bible which clearly says
>that -everyone- knows. The authority of the Bible is its claim to be
...should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
it across? You may trust the Bible, but your trusting it doesn't
make it any more credible to me.
If the Bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason
to doubt the Bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged
god's alleged existance.
>refuted while the species-wide condemnation is justified. Those that
>claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
>unknown, must deliberately ignore the Bible; the ignorance itself is
>no excuse.
1) No, they don't have to ignore the Bible. The Bible is far
from universally accepted. The Bible is NOT a proof of god;
it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
was a god. (Or does it prove even that? They might have been
writing it as series of fiction short-stories. As in the
case of Dionetics.) Assuming the writers believed it, the
only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it.
And that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
interpretations and Biblical-philosophers were correct.
2) There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible.
3) Again, read the FAQ.
>freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
>ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
>in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only
Bzzt...wrong answer!
Gravity is directly THERE. It doesn't stop exerting a direct and
rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it. God, on the
other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except
on the tabloids. God doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence.
Gravity is obvious; gods aren't.
>Secondly, human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God, so
>much so that it is, in itself, intrinsic to our nature. Human reason
>always comes back to the question of God, in every generation and in
No, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of
"God"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god".
In other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian
god, it comes back to whether there is any god. And, in much
of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as
the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
are and which ones are out there. From a world-wide view,
human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
be and/or what force(s) are currently in control. A natural
tendancy to believe in "God" only exists in religious wishful
thinking.
>I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
>reasonable, that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
>different than what atheists think it is. Whether you agree or not
Xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions, and
it's reasonableness certainly doesn't merit eminence.
Divine justice...well, it only seems just to those who already
believe in the divinity.
First, not all atheists believe the same things about human
nature. Second, whether most atheists are correct or not,
YOU certainly are not correct on human nature. You are, at
the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric
approach. Try looking at the outside world as well when
you attempt to sum up all of humanity.
Andrew
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell
Subject Re free moral agency
Distribution na
Lines 119
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill
Conner says
deankaflowitz decaycbnewsjcbattcom wrote
Now what I am interested in is the original notion you were discussing
on moral free agency That is how can a god punish a person for
not believing in him when that person is only following his or her
nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or
her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god
I think youre letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of
WEBSTER myth a traditional or legendary story
a beliefwhose truth is accepted uncritically
How does that qualify
Indeed its almost oxymoronica rather amusing instance
Ive found that most atheists hold almost no atheistviews as
accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend
Many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but
they dont meet the other criterions
Also
Divine justice According to the most fundamental doctrines of
Christianity When the first man sinned he was at that time the
You accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to
launch your own xtian mythology This time meeting all the
requirements of myth
salvation The idea of punishment is based on the proposition that
everyone knows instinctively that God exists is their creator and
Ah but not everyone knows that god exists So you have
a fallacy
Theres nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to
any reasonably Biblically literate Christian The only controversy is
And that makes it true Holding with the Bible rules out controversy
Read the FAQ If youve read it you missed something so reread
Not a bad suggestion for anyoneI reread it just before this
with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
means When atheists claim that they do not know if God exists and
dont know what He wants they contradict the Bible which clearly says
that everyone knows The authority of the Bible is its claim to be
should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
it across You may trust the Bible but your trusting it doesnt
make it any more credible to me
If the Bible says that everyone knows thats clearly reason
to doubt the Bible because not everyone knows your alleged
gods alleged existance
refuted while the specieswide condemnation is justified Those that
claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
unknown must deliberately ignore the Bible the ignorance itself is
no excuse
1 No they dont have to ignore the Bible The Bible is far
from universally accepted The Bible is NOT a proof of god
it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
was a god Or does it prove even that They might have been
writing it as series of fiction shortstories As in the
case of Dionetics Assuming the writers believed it the
only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it
And thats ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
interpretations and Biblicalphilosophers were correct
2 There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible
3 Again read the FAQ
freedom You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
in both cases That an atheist cant accept the evidence means only
Bzztwrong answer
Gravity is directly THERE It doesnt stop exerting a direct and
rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it God on the
other hand doesnt generally show up in the supermarket except
on the tabloids God doesnt exert a rationally undeniable influence
Gravity is obvious gods arent
Secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God so
much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature Human reason
always comes back to the question of God in every generation and in
No human reason hasnt always come back to the existance of
God it has usually come back to the existance of god
In other words it doesnt generally come back to the xtian
god it comes back to whether there is any god And in much
of oriental philosophic history it generally doesnt pop up as
the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
are and which ones are out there From a worldwide view
human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
be andor what forces are currently in control A natural
tendancy to believe in God only exists in religious wishful
thinking
I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
reasonable that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
different than what atheists think it is Whether you agree or not
Xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions and
its reasonableness certainly doesnt merit eminence
Divine justicewell it only seems just to those who already
believe in the divinity
First not all atheists believe the same things about human
nature Second whether most atheists are correct or not
YOU certainly are not correct on human nature You are at
the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric
approach Try looking at the outside world as well when
you attempt to sum up all of humanity
Andrew
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: sgi
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Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1ql6jiINN5df@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|>
|> >>Look, I'm not the one that made those Nazi comparisons. Other people
|> >>compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany. They
|> >>have said that it started out with little things (but no one really knew
|> >>about any of these "little" things, strangely enough) and grew to bigger
|> >>things. They said that the motto is but one of the little things
|> >You just contradicted yourself. The motto is one of those little things that
|> >nobody has bothered mentiopning to you, huh?
|>
|> The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly. People
|> said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
|> They said that these were things that everyone should know, and that they
|> weren't going to waste their time repeating them. Sounds to me like no one
|> knew, either. I looked in some books, but to no avail.
That's not true. I gave you two examples. One was the rather
pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived. The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
of the population.
Neither of these were very terrible in themselves, but both helped
to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of Jews
was made easier.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
Look Im not the one that made those Nazi comparisons Other people
compared what the religious people are doing now to Nazi Germany They
have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew
about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger
things They said that the motto is but one of the little things
You just contradicted yourself The motto is one of those little things that
nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh
The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
They said that these were things that everyone should know and that they
werent going to waste their time repeating them Sounds to me like no one
knew either I looked in some books but to no avail
Thats not true I gave you two examples One was the rather
pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
of the population
Neither of these were very terrible in themselves but both helped
to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of Jews
was made easier
jon
preprocess doc From: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: oit.gatech.edu
In article <844@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:
> Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria? I figure
>that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
>Any comments?
Sure. Why keep using oil? A hydrogen/electric economy would likely be
cleaner and more efficient in the long run. The laws of supply and demand
should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of
shortage.
--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew
Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu
after prepro From matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost oitgatechedu
In article 844rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes
Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
Any comments
Sure Why keep using oil A hydrogenelectric economy would likely be
cleaner and more efficient in the long run The laws of supply and demand
should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of
shortage
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta Georgia 30332
uucp decvaxhplabsncarpurduerutgersgatechprismmatthew
Internet matthewphantomgatechedu
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 41
In article <C5HKv2.Epv@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <115256@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>Judaism, for one. Maddi has confirmed this for one. And again I
>>reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time,
>>simply by making a public declaration. If one is too lazy to do
>>that then the religion cannot be held responsible.
>There are many "Islamic" countries where publically renouncing Islam can be
>quite dangerous. These countries might not, according to you, necessarily be
>practicing "true" Islam, but the danger still remains; one cannot blame
>failure to publically renounce Islam on "laziness" as opposed to a desire to
>stay alive and well.
Of course, if you're planning to pull a Rushdie then declaring one's
leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one's
other plans.
In Rushdie's case, the one under discussion, one can. It is tragic that
in _some_ "Islamic" countries this is so. There are, however, Islamic
countries (whose constitutions contains statements that Islamic law is
to be incorporated), e.g. Kuwait, where one can freely make such
statements without fear.
>Not to mention that it has already been pointed out that Rushdie has said in
>his books that he's not a Muslim, and there have surely been enough readers of
>his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses.
This story has become tiresome. The conditions are clear. If you care to
make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made
public statements about leaving Islam prior to his writing of _TSV_. If
he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather
than trying to rejoin Islam or go on talking about his personal
feelings.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 41
In article arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
In article 115256buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Judaism for one Maddi has confirmed this for one And again I
reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time
simply by making a public declaration If one is too lazy to do
that then the religion cannot be held responsible
There are many Islamic countries where publically renouncing Islam can be
quite dangerous These countries might not according to you necessarily be
practicing true Islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame
failure to publically renounce Islam on laziness as opposed to a desire to
stay alive and well
Of course if youre planning to pull a Rushdie then declaring ones
leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to ones
other plans
In Rushdies case the one under discussion one can It is tragic that
in _some_ Islamic countries this is so There are however Islamic
countries whose constitutions contains statements that Islamic law is
to be incorporated eg Kuwait where one can freely make such
statements without fear
Not to mention that it has already been pointed out that Rushdie has said in
his books that hes not a Muslim and there have surely been enough readers of
his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses
This story has become tiresome The conditions are clear If you care to
make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made
public statements about leaving Islam prior to his writing of _TSV_ If
he did make such statements then he should have made _that_ clear rather
than trying to rejoin Islam or go on talking about his personal
feelings
Gregg
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
In-Reply-To: <930416.141520.7h1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 15
>DATE: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:15:20 +0100
>FROM: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
>
>The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
>finished writing a sequel to the Bible.
>
>mathew
Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines. He's already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING!. I would expect any
decent messiah to have a built-in spellchecker. Maybe Koresh 2.0 will
come with one.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
InReplyTo 9304161415207h1rusnewsw165wmantiscouk
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 15
DATE Fri 16 Apr 1993 141520 0100
FROM mathew
The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
finished writing a sequel to the Bible
mathew
Writing the Seven Seals or something along those lines Hes already
written the first of the Seven which was around 30 pages or so and has
handed it over to an assistant for PROOFREADING I would expect any
decent messiah to have a builtin spellchecker Maybe Koresh 20 will
come with one
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: army in space
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space
Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce..
Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard..
I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen
Police)..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re army in space
Lines 13
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only Space
Command left The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce
Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard
I hate walking with a pack on my back and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker that you have done a lot of KP Kitchen
Police
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
WHile we are on the subject of the shuttle software.
what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51-L. to wit, that during the
wind shear event, the Flight control software indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance leading to an overstress of the struts.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
WHile we are on the subject of the shuttle software
what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software
was a major factor in the loss of 51L to wit that during the
wind shear event the Flight control software indicated a series
of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic
resonance leading to an overstress of the struts
pat
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Constructing a Logical Argument
Summary: Includes a list of logical fallacies
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, argument, fallacies, logic
Expires: Thu, 20 May 1993 10:52:14 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930322114724@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 632
Archive-name: atheism/logic
Alt-atheism-archive-name: logic
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.4
Constructing a Logical Argument
Although there is much argument on Usenet, the general quality of argument
found is poor. This article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to
logic, in the hope of improving the general level of debate.
Logic is the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference [Concise
OED]. Logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether
it is correct or not (valid or invalid). Of course, one does not need to
study logic in order to reason correctly; nevertheless, a little basic
knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an
argument.
Note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally
applicable. The matter is very much open for debate. This document merely
explains how to use logic, given that you have already decided that logic is
the right tool for the job.
Propositions (or statements) are the building blocks of a logical argument. A
proposition is a statement which is either true or false; for example, "It is
raining" or "Today is Tuesday". Propositions may be either asserted (said to
be true) or denied (said to be false). Note that this is a technical meaning
of "deny", not the everyday meaning.
The proposition is the meaning of the statement, not the particular
arrangement of words used to express it. So "God exists" and "There exists a
God" both express the same proposition.
An argument is, to quote the Monty Python sketch, "a connected series of
statements to establish a definite proposition". An argument consists of
three stages.
First of all, the propositions which are necessary for the argument to
continue are stated. These are called the premises of the argument. They
are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions.
Premises (or assertions) are often indicated by phrases such as "because",
"since", "obviously" and so on. (The phrase "obviously" is often viewed with
suspicion, as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious
premises. If something doesn't seem obvious to you, don't be afraid to
question it. You can always say "Oh, yes, you're right, it is obvious" when
you've heard the explanation.)
Next, the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known
as inference. In inference, one proposition is arrived at on the basis of
one or more other propositions already accepted. There are various forms of
valid inference.
The propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further
inference. Inference is often denoted by phrases such as "implies that" or
"therefore".
Finally, we arrive at the conclusion of the argument -- the proposition which
is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference. Conclusions are often
indicated by phrases such as "therefore", "it follows that", "we conclude"
and so on. The conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference.
For example:
Every event has a cause (premise)
The universe has a beginning (premise)
All beginnings involve an event (premise)
This implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event (inference)
Therefore the universe has a cause (inference and conclusion)
Note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another
argument. A proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with
respect to a particular argument; the terms do not make sense in isolation.
Sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above; for example,
the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated
afterwards in support of the conclusion. This is perfectly valid, if
sometimes a little confusing.
Recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or
conclusions. Many people shower their writing with assertions without ever
producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument. Some
statements look like arguments, but are not. For example:
"If the Bible is accurate, Jesus must either have been insane, an evil liar,
or the Son of God."
This is not an argument, it is a conditional statement. It does not assert
the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its
conclusion. (It also suffers from a number of other logical flaws, but we'll
come to those later.)
Another example:
"God created you; therefore do your duty to God."
The phrase "do your duty to God" is not a proposition, since it is neither
true nor false. Therefore it is not a conclusion, and the sentence is not an
argument.
Finally, causality is important. Consider a statement of the form "A because
B". If we're interested in establishing A and B is offered as evidence, the
statement is an argument. If we're trying to establish the truth of B, then
it is not an argument, it is an explanation.
For example:
"There must be something wrong with the engine of my car, because it will not
start." -- This is an argument.
"My car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine."
-- This is an explanation.
There are two traditional types of argument, deductive and inductive. A
deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions
-- that is, an argument where if the premises are true, the conclusion must
also be true. A deductive argument is either valid or invalid. A valid
argument is defined as one where if the premises are true, then the
conclusion is true.
An inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the
truth of the conclusion. Inductive arguments are not valid or invalid;
however, we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other
arguments, and about how probable their premises are.
There are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive
nor inductive. However, we will concentrate for the moment on deductive
arguments, as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing.
It is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does
not imply that its conclusion holds. This is because of the slightly
counter-intuitive nature of implication, which we must now consider more
carefully.
Obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions. However, an
argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions.
For example:
All insects have wings (premise)
Woodlice are insects (premise)
Therefore woodlice have wings (conclusion)
Here, the conclusion is not true because the argument's premises are false.
If the argument's premises were true, however, the conclusion would be true.
The argument is thus entirely valid.
More subtly, we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises,
as in:
All fish live in the sea (premise)
Dolphins are fish (premise)
Therefore dolphins live in the sea (conclusion)
However, the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid
inference from true premises. We can therefore draw up a "truth table" for
implication.
The symbol "=>" denotes implication; "A" is the premise, "B" the conclusion.
"T" and "F" represent true and false respectively.
Premise Conclusion Inference
A B A=>B
----------------------------
F F T If the premises are false and the inference
F T T valid, the conclusion can be true or false.
T F F If the premises are true and the conclusion
false, the inference must be invalid.
T T T If the premises are true and the inference valid,
the conclusion must be true.
A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true. A sound
argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion. Be careful not to confuse
valid arguments with sound arguments.
To delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require
lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy. It is simpler and probably
more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing
an argument. These pitfalls are known as fallacies.
In everyday English the term "fallacy" is used to refer to mistaken beliefs
as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs. This is fair
enough, but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of
technically incorrect argument, especially if the argument appears valid or
convincing.
So for the purposes of this discussion, we define a fallacy as a logical
argument which appears to be correct, but which can be seen to be incorrect
when examined more closely. By studying fallacies we aim to avoid being
misled by them. The following list of fallacies is not intended to be
exhaustive.
ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM (APPEAL TO FORCE)
The Appeal to Force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the
threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion. It
is often used by politicians, and can be summarized as "might makes right".
The force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer.
For example:
"... Thus there is ample proof of the truth of the Bible. All those who
refuse to accept that truth will burn in Hell."
ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM
Argumentum ad hominem is literally "argument directed at the man".
The Abusive variety of Argumentum ad Hominem occurs when, instead of trying
to disprove the truth of an assertion, the arguer attacks the person or
people making the assertion. This is invalid because the truth of an
assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it.
For example:
"Atheism is an evil philosophy. It is practised by Communists and murderers."
Sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by
showing, for example, that he is a known perjurer. This is a valid way of
reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness, and not
argumentum ad hominem; however, it does not demonstrate that the witness's
testimony is false. To conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (see elsewhere in this list).
The circumstantial form of Argumentum ad Hominem is committed when a person
argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of
the opponent's particular circumstances.
For example:
"It is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food. How can you argue
otherwise when you're quite happy to wear leather shoes?"
This is an abusive charge of inconsistency, used as an excuse for dismissing
the opponent's argument.
This fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion. For
example:
"Of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing.
You're white."
This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when one alleges that one's
adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests, is
also known as "poisoning the well".
ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM
Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this
is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved
true, a basic scientific principle.)
Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise."
"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."
Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is
generally assumed innocent until proven guilty.
Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example:
"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water,
even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no
such flood occurred."
In science, we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has
not occurred. We cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred,
however.
ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM
This is the Appeal to Pity, also known as Special Pleading. The fallacy is
committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a
conclusion accepted. For example:
"I did not murder my mother and father with an axe. Please don't find me
guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan."
ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM
This is known as Appealing to the Gallery, or Appealing to the People. To
commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by
appealing to a large group of people. This form of fallacy is often
characterized by emotive language. For example:
"Pornography must be banned. It is violence against women."
"The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"
ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM
This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.
ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM
The Appeal to Authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win
support for an assertion. For example:
"Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God."
This line of argument is not always completely bogus; for example, reference
to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a
discussion of that subject. For example, we can distinguish quite clearly
between:
"Stephen Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation"
and
"John Searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent
computer"
Hawking is a physicist, and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black
hole radiation to be informed. Searle is a linguist, so it is questionable
whether he is well-qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence.
THE FALLACY OF ACCIDENT
The Fallacy of Accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a
particular case whose "accidental" circumstances mean that the rule is
inapplicable. It is the error made when one goes from the general to the
specific. For example:
"Christians generally dislike atheists. You are a Christian, so you must
dislike atheists."
This fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide
every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules.
CONVERSE ACCIDENT / HASTY GENERALIZATION
This fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident. It occurs when one
forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not
representative of all possible cases.
For example:
"Jim Bakker was an insincere Christian. Therefore all Christians are
insincere."
SWEEPING GENERALIZATION / DICTO SIMPLICITER
A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a
particular situation in which the features of that particular situation
render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a
hasty generalization.
NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA / POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
These are known as False Cause fallacies.
The fallacy of Non Causa Pro Causa occurs when one identifies something as the
cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause. For
example:
"I took an aspirin and prayed to God, and my headache disappeared. So God
cured me of the headache."
The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to
be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event. For
example:
"The Soviet Union collapsed after taking up atheism. Therefore we must avoid
atheism for the same reasons."
CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
This fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc. It asserts that
because two events occur together, they must be causally related, and leaves
no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events.
PETITIO PRINCIPII
This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the
conclusion reached.
CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO
This fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one
wishes to reach. Often, the proposition will be rephrased so that the
fallacy appears to be a valid argument. For example:
"Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office. Hence any
government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job.
Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret, and will be open
to blackmail. Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government
office."
Note that the argument is entirely circular; the premise is the same as the
conclusion. An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason
for the British Secret Services' official ban on homosexual employees.
Another example is the classic:
"We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so. And we know that the
Bible is true because it is the word of God."
COMPLEX QUESTION / FALLACY OF INTERROGATION
This is the Fallacy of Presupposition. One example is the classic loaded
question:
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked. This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination,
when they ask questions like:
"Where did you hide the money you stole?"
Similarly, politicians often ask loaded questions such as:
"How long will this EC interference in our affairs be allowed to continue?"
or
"Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization?"
IGNORATIO ELENCHI
The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument
supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do
with that conclusion.
For example, a Christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the
teachings of Christianity are undoubtably true. If he then argues at length
that Christianity is of great help to many people, no matter how well he
argues he will not have shown that Christian teachings are true.
Sadly, such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse
emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more
favourable light.
EQUIVOCATION
Equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different
meanings in the same argument. For example:
"What could be more affordable than free software? But to make sure that it
remains free, that users can do what they like with it, we must place a
license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable."
AMPHIBOLY
Amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because
of careless or ungrammatical phrasing.
ACCENT
Accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning. In this case,
the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are
emphasized. For example, consider:
"We should not speak ILL of our friends"
and
"We should not speak ill of our FRIENDS"
FALLACIES OF COMPOSITION
One fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts
of something must apply to the whole. For example:
"The bicycle is made entirely of low mass components, and is therefore very
lightweight."
The other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number
of individual items is shared by a collection of those items. For example:
"A car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus. Therefore cars
are less environmentally damaging than buses."
FALLACY OF DIVISION
The fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition. Like
its opposite, it exists in two varieties. The first is to assume that a
property of some thing must apply to its parts. For example:
"You are studying at a rich college. Therefore you must be rich."
The other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by
each item. For example:
"Ants can destroy a tree. Therefore this ant can destroy a tree."
THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT
This argument states that should one event occur, so will other harmful
events. There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the
first event.
For example:
"If we legalize marijuana, then we would have to legalize crack and heroin
and we'll have a nation full of drug-addicts on welfare. Therefore we cannot
legalize marijuana."
"A IS BASED ON B" FALLACIES / "IS A TYPE OF" FALLACIES
These fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way
similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar.
Examples:
"Isn't history based upon faith? If so, then isn't the Bible also a form of
history?"
"Islam is based on faith, Christianity is based on faith, so isn't Islam a
form of Christianity?"
"Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry, dogs are a form of
animal based on carbon chemistry, so aren't dogs a form of cat?"
AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT
This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, B is true, therefore A
is true". To understand why it is a fallacy, examine the truth table for
implication given earlier.
DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT
This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B
is false". Again, the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is
a fallacy.
Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa; the latter has
the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false", where A does NOT in
fact imply B at all. Here, the problem is not that the implication is
invalid; rather it is that the falseness of A does not allow us to deduce
anything about B.
CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL
This fallacy is an argument of the form "If A then B, therefore if B then A".
ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM
This is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old, or because "that's the way it's always been."
ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
This is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam; it is the fallacy of
asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer
than something else.
ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM
The fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those
with more money are more likely to be right.
ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM
The fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or
more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the opposite of the
argumentum ad crumenam.
ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEAM
This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the
more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs
constant repetition in asserting something.
BIFURCATION
Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation occurs when
one presents a situation as having only two alternatives, where in fact other
alternatives exist or can exist.
PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM / MANY QUESTIONS
This fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex
question.
NON SEQUITUR
A non-sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises
which are not logically connected with it.
RED HERRING
This fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed, so that everyone's attention is diverted away from the
points being made, towards a different conclusion.
REIFICATION / HYPOSTATIZATION
Reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing.
SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF
The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad
ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who
denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is
the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
STRAW MAN
The straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone else's position so that it
can be attacked more easily, then to knock down that misrepresented position,
then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a
fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been
made.
THE EXTENDED ANALOGY
The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general
rule is being argued over. The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two
different situations, in an argument about a general rule, constitutes a
claim that those situations are analogous to each other.
This fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about
anti-cryptography legislation:
"I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."
"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported
Martin Luther King."
"Are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the
struggle for Black liberation? How dare you!"
TU QUOQUE
This is the famous "you too" fallacy. It occurs when an action is argued to
be acceptable because the other party has performed it. For instance:
"You're just being randomly abusive."
"So? You've been abusive too."
ÿ
after prepro From mathew
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Constructing a Logical Argument
Summary Includes a list of logical fallacies
Keywords FAQ atheism argument fallacies logic
Expires Thu 20 May 1993 105214 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930322114724mantiscouk
Lines 632
Archivename atheismlogic
Altatheismarchivename logic
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 14
Constructing a Logical Argument
Although there is much argument on Usenet the general quality of argument
found is poor This article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to
logic in the hope of improving the general level of debate
Logic is the science of reasoning proof thinking or inference [Concise
OED] Logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether
it is correct or not valid or invalid Of course one does not need to
study logic in order to reason correctly nevertheless a little basic
knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an
argument
Note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally
applicable The matter is very much open for debate This document merely
explains how to use logic given that you have already decided that logic is
the right tool for the job
Propositions or statements are the building blocks of a logical argument A
proposition is a statement which is either true or false for example It is
raining or Today is Tuesday Propositions may be either asserted said to
be true or denied said to be false Note that this is a technical meaning
of deny not the everyday meaning
The proposition is the meaning of the statement not the particular
arrangement of words used to express it So God exists and There exists a
God both express the same proposition
An argument is to quote the Monty Python sketch a connected series of
statements to establish a definite proposition An argument consists of
three stages
First of all the propositions which are necessary for the argument to
continue are stated These are called the premises of the argument They
are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions
Premises or assertions are often indicated by phrases such as because
since obviously and so on The phrase obviously is often viewed with
suspicion as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious
premises If something doesnt seem obvious to you dont be afraid to
question it You can always say Oh yes youre right it is obvious when
youve heard the explanation
Next the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known
as inference In inference one proposition is arrived at on the basis of
one or more other propositions already accepted There are various forms of
valid inference
The propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further
inference Inference is often denoted by phrases such as implies that or
therefore
Finally we arrive at the conclusion of the argument the proposition which
is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference Conclusions are often
indicated by phrases such as therefore it follows that we conclude
and so on The conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference
For example
Every event has a cause premise
The universe has a beginning premise
All beginnings involve an event premise
This implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event inference
Therefore the universe has a cause inference and conclusion
Note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another
argument A proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with
respect to a particular argument the terms do not make sense in isolation
Sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above for example
the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated
afterwards in support of the conclusion This is perfectly valid if
sometimes a little confusing
Recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or
conclusions Many people shower their writing with assertions without ever
producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument Some
statements look like arguments but are not For example
If the Bible is accurate Jesus must either have been insane an evil liar
or the Son of God
This is not an argument it is a conditional statement It does not assert
the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its
conclusion It also suffers from a number of other logical flaws but well
come to those later
Another example
God created you therefore do your duty to God
The phrase do your duty to God is not a proposition since it is neither
true nor false Therefore it is not a conclusion and the sentence is not an
argument
Finally causality is important Consider a statement of the form A because
B If were interested in establishing A and B is offered as evidence the
statement is an argument If were trying to establish the truth of B then
it is not an argument it is an explanation
For example
There must be something wrong with the engine of my car because it will not
start This is an argument
My car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine
This is an explanation
There are two traditional types of argument deductive and inductive A
deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions
that is an argument where if the premises are true the conclusion must
also be true A deductive argument is either valid or invalid A valid
argument is defined as one where if the premises are true then the
conclusion is true
An inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the
truth of the conclusion Inductive arguments are not valid or invalid
however we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other
arguments and about how probable their premises are
There are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive
nor inductive However we will concentrate for the moment on deductive
arguments as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing
It is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does
not imply that its conclusion holds This is because of the slightly
counterintuitive nature of implication which we must now consider more
carefully
Obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions However an
argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions
For example
All insects have wings premise
Woodlice are insects premise
Therefore woodlice have wings conclusion
Here the conclusion is not true because the arguments premises are false
If the arguments premises were true however the conclusion would be true
The argument is thus entirely valid
More subtly we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises
as in
All fish live in the sea premise
Dolphins are fish premise
Therefore dolphins live in the sea conclusion
However the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid
inference from true premises We can therefore draw up a truth table for
implication
The symbol denotes implication A is the premise B the conclusion
T and F represent true and false respectively
Premise Conclusion Inference
A B AB
F F T If the premises are false and the inference
F T T valid the conclusion can be true or false
T F F If the premises are true and the conclusion
false the inference must be invalid
T T T If the premises are true and the inference valid
the conclusion must be true
A sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true A sound
argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion Be careful not to confuse
valid arguments with sound arguments
To delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require
lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy It is simpler and probably
more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing
an argument These pitfalls are known as fallacies
In everyday English the term fallacy is used to refer to mistaken beliefs
as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs This is fair
enough but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of
technically incorrect argument especially if the argument appears valid or
convincing
So for the purposes of this discussion we define a fallacy as a logical
argument which appears to be correct but which can be seen to be incorrect
when examined more closely By studying fallacies we aim to avoid being
misled by them The following list of fallacies is not intended to be
exhaustive
ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM APPEAL TO FORCE
The Appeal to Force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the
threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion It
is often used by politicians and can be summarized as might makes right
The force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer
For example
Thus there is ample proof of the truth of the Bible All those who
refuse to accept that truth will burn in Hell
ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM
Argumentum ad hominem is literally argument directed at the man
The Abusive variety of Argumentum ad Hominem occurs when instead of trying
to disprove the truth of an assertion the arguer attacks the person or
people making the assertion This is invalid because the truth of an
assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it
For example
Atheism is an evil philosophy It is practised by Communists and murderers
Sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by
showing for example that he is a known perjurer This is a valid way of
reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness and not
argumentum ad hominem however it does not demonstrate that the witnesss
testimony is false To conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam see elsewhere in this list
The circumstantial form of Argumentum ad Hominem is committed when a person
argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of
the opponents particular circumstances
For example
It is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food How can you argue
otherwise when youre quite happy to wear leather shoes
This is an abusive charge of inconsistency used as an excuse for dismissing
the opponents argument
This fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion For
example
Of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing
Youre white
This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem when one alleges that ones
adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests is
also known as poisoning the well
ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM
Argumentum ad ignorantium means argument from ignorance This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false Or equivalently when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true Note that this
is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved
true a basic scientific principle
Examples
Of course the Bible is true Nobody can prove otherwise
Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real
Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law where one is
generally assumed innocent until proven guilty
Also in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred the absence of such evidence can
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur For example
A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to be present on the earth The earth does not have a tenth as much water
even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles Therefore no
such flood occurred
In science we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has
not occurred We cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred
however
ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM
This is the Appeal to Pity also known as Special Pleading The fallacy is
committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a
conclusion accepted For example
I did not murder my mother and father with an axe Please dont find me
guilty Im suffering enough through being an orphan
ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM
This is known as Appealing to the Gallery or Appealing to the People To
commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by
appealing to a large group of people This form of fallacy is often
characterized by emotive language For example
Pornography must be banned It is violence against women
The Bible must be true Millions of people know that it is Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools
ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM
This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum It consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct
ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM
The Appeal to Authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win
support for an assertion For example
Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God
This line of argument is not always completely bogus for example reference
to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a
discussion of that subject For example we can distinguish quite clearly
between
Stephen Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation
and
John Searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent
computer
Hawking is a physicist and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black
hole radiation to be informed Searle is a linguist so it is questionable
whether he is wellqualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence
THE FALLACY OF ACCIDENT
The Fallacy of Accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a
particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule is
inapplicable It is the error made when one goes from the general to the
specific For example
Christians generally dislike atheists You are a Christian so you must
dislike atheists
This fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide
every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules
CONVERSE ACCIDENT HASTY GENERALIZATION
This fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident It occurs when one
forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not
representative of all possible cases
For example
Jim Bakker was an insincere Christian Therefore all Christians are
insincere
SWEEPING GENERALIZATION DICTO SIMPLICITER
A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a
particular situation in which the features of that particular situation
render the rule inapplicable A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a
hasty generalization
NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
These are known as False Cause fallacies
The fallacy of Non Causa Pro Causa occurs when one identifies something as the
cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause For
example
I took an aspirin and prayed to God and my headache disappeared So God
cured me of the headache
The fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc occurs when something is assumed to
be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event For
example
The Soviet Union collapsed after taking up atheism Therefore we must avoid
atheism for the same reasons
CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
This fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc It asserts that
because two events occur together they must be causally related and leaves
no room for other factors that may be the causes of the events
PETITIO PRINCIPII
This fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the
conclusion reached
CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO
This fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one
wishes to reach Often the proposition will be rephrased so that the
fallacy appears to be a valid argument For example
Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office Hence any
government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job
Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret and will be open
to blackmail Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government
office
Note that the argument is entirely circular the premise is the same as the
conclusion An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason
for the British Secret Services official ban on homosexual employees
Another example is the classic
We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so And we know that the
Bible is true because it is the word of God
COMPLEX QUESTION FALLACY OF INTERROGATION
This is the Fallacy of Presupposition One example is the classic loaded
question
Have you stopped beating your wife
The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked This trick is often used by lawyers in crossexamination
when they ask questions like
Where did you hide the money you stole
Similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such as
How long will this EC interference in our affairs be allowed to continue
or
Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization
IGNORATIO ELENCHI
The fallacy of Irrelevant Conclusion consists of claiming that an argument
supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do
with that conclusion
For example a Christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the
teachings of Christianity are undoubtably true If he then argues at length
that Christianity is of great help to many people no matter how well he
argues he will not have shown that Christian teachings are true
Sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse
emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more
favourable light
EQUIVOCATION
Equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different
meanings in the same argument For example
What could be more affordable than free software But to make sure that it
remains free that users can do what they like with it we must place a
license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable
AMPHIBOLY
Amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because
of careless or ungrammatical phrasing
ACCENT
Accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning In this case
the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are
emphasized For example consider
We should not speak ILL of our friends
and
We should not speak ill of our FRIENDS
FALLACIES OF COMPOSITION
One fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts
of something must apply to the whole For example
The bicycle is made entirely of low mass components and is therefore very
lightweight
The other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number
of individual items is shared by a collection of those items For example
A car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus Therefore cars
are less environmentally damaging than buses
FALLACY OF DIVISION
The fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition Like
its opposite it exists in two varieties The first is to assume that a
property of some thing must apply to its parts For example
You are studying at a rich college Therefore you must be rich
The other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by
each item For example
Ants can destroy a tree Therefore this ant can destroy a tree
THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT
This argument states that should one event occur so will other harmful
events There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the
first event
For example
If we legalize marijuana then we would have to legalize crack and heroin
and well have a nation full of drugaddicts on welfare Therefore we cannot
legalize marijuana
A IS BASED ON B FALLACIES IS A TYPE OF FALLACIES
These fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way
similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar
Examples
Isnt history based upon faith If so then isnt the Bible also a form of
history
Islam is based on faith Christianity is based on faith so isnt Islam a
form of Christianity
Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry dogs are a form of
animal based on carbon chemistry so arent dogs a form of cat
AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT
This fallacy is an argument of the form A implies B B is true therefore A
is true To understand why it is a fallacy examine the truth table for
implication given earlier
DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT
This fallacy is an argument of the form A implies B A is false therefore B
is false Again the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is
a fallacy
Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa the latter has
the form A implies B A is false therefore B is false where A does NOT in
fact imply B at all Here the problem is not that the implication is
invalid rather it is that the falseness of A does not allow us to deduce
anything about B
CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL
This fallacy is an argument of the form If A then B therefore if B then A
ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM
This is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old or because thats the way its always been
ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
This is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam it is the fallacy of
asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer
than something else
ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM
The fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness that those
with more money are more likely to be right
ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM
The fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or
more virtuous than one who is wealthier This fallacy is the opposite of the
argumentum ad crumenam
ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEAM
This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the
more often it is heard An argumentum ad nauseum is one that employs
constant repetition in asserting something
BIFURCATION
Also referred to as the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when
one presents a situation as having only two alternatives where in fact other
alternatives exist or can exist
PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM MANY QUESTIONS
This fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex
question
NON SEQUITUR
A nonsequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises
which are not logically connected with it
RED HERRING
This fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed so that everyones attention is diverted away from the
points being made towards a different conclusion
REIFICATION HYPOSTATIZATION
Reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing
SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF
The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition Shifting the burden of proof a special case of argumentum ad
ignorantium is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who
denies or questions the assertion being made The source of the fallacy is
the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise
STRAW MAN
The straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone elses position so that it
can be attacked more easily then to knock down that misrepresented position
then to conclude that the original position has been demolished It is a
fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been
made
THE EXTENDED ANALOGY
The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general
rule is being argued over The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two
different situations in an argument about a general rule constitutes a
claim that those situations are analogous to each other
This fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about
anticryptography legislation
I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it
Such a position is odious it implies that you would not have supported
Martin Luther King
Are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the
struggle for Black liberation How dare you
TU QUOQUE
This is the famous you too fallacy It occurs when an action is argued to
be acceptable because the other party has performed it For instance
Youre just being randomly abusive
So Youve been abusive too
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: syndicoot.engin.umich.edu
In article <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>, galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton) writes:
[deletions]
>> Now, back to your post. You have done a fine job at using
>> your seventh grade 'life science' course to explain why
>> bad diseases are caused by Satan and good things are a
>> result of God. But I want to let you in on a little secret.
>> "We can create an amino acid sequence in lab! -- And guess
>> what, the sequence curls into a helix! Wow! That's right,
>> it can happen without a supernatural force."
>
>Wow! All it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions
>of dollars of state of the art equipment. And I thought it took
>*intelligence* to create the building blocks of life. Foolish me!
People with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment
and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes. But tornadoes
do not require intelligence to exist.
Not only that, the equipment needed is not really 'state of the art.'
To study the *products*, yes, but not to generate them.
>If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
>response, send a copy to Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com. I can't read
>a.a. every day, and some posts slip by. Thanks.
Oh, I will. :->
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles || The above opinions are probably
|| not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu || Michigan. Yet.
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 32
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost syndicootenginumichedu
In article 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton writes
[deletions]
Now back to your post You have done a fine job at using
your seventh grade life science course to explain why
bad diseases are caused by Satan and good things are a
result of God But I want to let you in on a little secret
We can create an amino acid sequence in lab And guess
what the sequence curls into a helix Wow Thats right
it can happen without a supernatural force
Wow All it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions
of dollars of state of the art equipment And I thought it took
intelligence to create the building blocks of life Foolish me
People with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment
and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes But tornadoes
do not require intelligence to exist
Not only that the equipment needed is not really state of the art
To study the products yes but not to generate them
If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
response send a copy to Jim_Brownozbmdtrwcom I cant read
aa every day and some posts slip by Thanks
Oh I will
Sincerely
Ray Ingles The above opinions are probably
not those of the University of
inglesenginumichedu Michigan Yet
preprocess doc From: cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: vesta.unm.edu
Keywords: Dan Bissell
In article <healta.145.734928689@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) writes:
[deletia wrt pathetic Jee-zus posting by Bissel]
> I hope you're not going to flame him. Please give him the same coutesy you'
> ve given me.
NO. He hasn't extended to US the courtesy you've shown us, so he don't get no
pie. Tammy, I respect your beliefs because you don't try to stamp them into
my being. I have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to
evangelize.
>
> Tammy
after prepro From cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque
Lines 12
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost vestaunmedu
Keywords Dan Bissell
In article healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy writes
[deletia wrt pathetic Jeezus posting by Bissel]
I hope youre not going to flame him Please give him the same coutesy you
ve given me
NO He hasnt extended to US the courtesy youve shown us so he dont get no
pie Tammy I respect your beliefs because you dont try to stamp them into
my being I have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to
evangelize
Tammy
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 26
In article <2942881697.0.p00168@psilink.com> p00168@psilink.com (James F. Tims) writes:
>
>By maintaining classes D and E, even in prison, it seems as if we
>place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than
>we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error.
>
I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
in prison for life.
That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder, but
also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
to commit the same crimes again.
In other words, if lifetime imprisonment doesn't work, perhaps
it's not because we're not executing these people, but because
we're not being careful enough about how we lock them up.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 26
In article 29428816970p00168psilinkcom p00168psilinkcom James F Tims writes
By maintaining classes D and E even in prison it seems as if we
place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than
we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error
I answer from the position that we would indeed place these people
in prison for life
That depends not only on their predisposition towards murder but
also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability
to commit the same crimes again
In other words if lifetime imprisonment doesnt work perhaps
its not because were not executing these people but because
were not being careful enough about how we lock them up
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Ryukoku Univ., Seta, Japan
Lines: 12
In article <1pp6reINNonl@phantom.gatech.edu>, matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>
> Greedy little oil companies? Don't blame them; oil companies just supply the
> demand created by you, me, and just about everyone else on the planet. If we
> run out, its all our faults.
>
Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria? I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
Any comments?
Will...
after prepro From willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Ryukoku Univ Seta Japan
Lines 12
In article 1pp6reINNonlphantomgatechedu matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes
Greedy little oil companies Dont blame them oil companies just supply the
demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet If we
run out its all our faults
Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
Any comments
Will
preprocess doc From: ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Ralph Buttigieg)
Subject: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Lines: 34
Original to: keithley@apple.com
G'day keithley@apple.com
21 Apr 93 22:25, keithley@apple.com wrote to All:
kc> keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley), via Kralizec 3:713/602
kc> But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST
about a
kc> low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon. A General
kc> Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
kc> stage, LEV, and crew capsule. The mission consists of delivering two
kc> unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission.
kc> Total cost: US was $10-$13 billion. Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was
$6-$9
kc> billion for the US share.
kc> moon for a year. Hmmm. Not really practical. Anyone got a
kc> cheaper/better way of delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface
within
kc> the decade? Anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year's
kc> supply of consumables and equipment would weigh?
Why not modify the GD plan into Zurbrin's Compact Moon Direct scheme? let
one of those early flight carry an O2 plant and make your own.
ta
Ralph
--- GoldED 2.41+
* Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-1204 3:713/6
(3:713/635)
after prepro From ralphbuttigiegf635n713z3fidozetaorgau Ralph Buttigieg
Subject Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization Fidonet Gate admin is fidosocsutseduau
Lines 34
Original to keithleyapplecom
Gday keithleyapplecom
21 Apr 93 2225 keithleyapplecom wrote to All
kc keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley via Kralizec 3713602
kc But back to the contest goals there was a recent article in AWST
about a
kc low cost its all relative manned return to the moon A General
kc Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
kc stage LEV and crew capsule The mission consists of delivering two
kc unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission
kc Total cost US was 1013 billion Joint ESANASA project was
69
kc billion for the US share
kc moon for a year Hmmm Not really practical Anyone got a
kc cheaperbetter way of delivering 1520 tonnes to the lunar surface
within
kc the decade Anyone have a more precise guess about how much a years
kc supply of consumables and equipment would weigh
Why not modify the GD plan into Zurbrins Compact Moon Direct scheme let
one of those early flight carry an O2 plant and make your own
ta
Ralph
GoldED 241
Origin VULCANS WORLD Sydney Australia 02 6351204 37136
3713635
preprocess doc From: frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
Subject: Re: Societally acceptable behavior
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Lines: 87
NNTP-Posting-Host: d012s658.ap.mchp.sni.de
In article <C5r9At.Asv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
#In <1qvabj$g1j@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
#writes:
#
#>In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
#Cobb) writes:
#
#Am I making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals? Where do they come
#from? The question came from the idea that I heard that morals come from
#whatever is societally mandated.
It's only one aspect of morality. Societal morality is necessarily
very crude and broad-brush stuff which attempts to deal with what
is necessary to keep that society going - and often it's a little
over-enthusiastic about doing so. Individual morality is a different
thing, it often includes societal mores (or society is in trouble),
but is stronger. For example, some people are vegetarian, though eating
meat may be perfectly legal.
#
#>#Merely a question for the basis of morality
#>#
#>#Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.
#>#
#>#1)Who is society
#
#>Depends on the society.
#
#Doesn't help. Is the point irrelevant?
No. Often the answer is "we are". But if society is those who make
the rules, that's a different question. If society is who should
make the rules, that's yet another. I don't claim to have the answers, either,
but I don't think we do it very well in Ireland, and I like some things
about the US system, at least in principle.
#
#>#2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?
#
#>Depends.
#On.... Again, this comes from a certain question (see above).
Well, ideally they don't, but if they must they should do it by consensus, IMO.
#
#>#3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?
#
#>By adopting a default position that people's moral decisions
#>are none of society's business,
#
#So how can we put people in jail? How can we condemn other societies?
Because sometimes that's necessary. The hard trick is to recognise when
it is, and equally importantly, when it isn't.
# and only interfering when it's truly
#>necessary.
#
#Why would it be necessary? What right do we have to interfere?
IMO, it isn't often that interference (i.e. jail, and force of various
kinds and degrees) is both necessary and effective. Where you derive
the right to interfere is a difficult question - it's a sort of
liar's paradox: "force is necessary for freedom". One possible justification
is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn't object if
their own freedom is taken away - the paradox doesn't arise if
we don't actively wish to take way anyone's freedom.
#
# The introduction of permissible interference causes the problem
#>that it can be either too much or too little - but most people seem
#>to agree that some level of interference is necessary.
#
#They see the need for a "justice" system. How can we even define that term?
Only by consensus, I guess.
# Thus you
#>get a situation where "The law often allows what honour forbids", which I've
#>come to believe is as it should be.
#
#I admit I don't understand that statement.
What I mean is that, while thus-and-such may be legal, thus-and-such may
also be seen as immoral. The law lets you do it, but you don't let yourself
do it. Eating meat, for example.
--
Frank O'Dwyer 'I'm not hatching That'
odwyer@sse.ie from "Hens", by Evelyn Conlon
after prepro From frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
Subject Re Societally acceptable behavior
Organization SiemensNixdorf AG
Lines 87
NNTPPostingHost d012s658apmchpsnide
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
In 1qvabjg1jhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
writes
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes
Am I making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals Where do they come
from The question came from the idea that I heard that morals come from
whatever is societally mandated
Its only one aspect of morality Societal morality is necessarily
very crude and broadbrush stuff which attempts to deal with what
is necessary to keep that society going and often its a little
overenthusiastic about doing so Individual morality is a different
thing it often includes societal mores or society is in trouble
but is stronger For example some people are vegetarian though eating
meat may be perfectly legal
Merely a question for the basis of morality
MoralEthical behavior _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_
1Who is society
Depends on the society
Doesnt help Is the point irrelevant
No Often the answer is we are But if society is those who make
the rules thats a different question If society is who should
make the rules thats yet another I dont claim to have the answers either
but I dont think we do it very well in Ireland and I like some things
about the US system at least in principle
2How do they define what is acceptable
Depends
On Again this comes from a certain question see above
Well ideally they dont but if they must they should do it by consensus IMO
3How do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position
By adopting a default position that peoples moral decisions
are none of societys business
So how can we put people in jail How can we condemn other societies
Because sometimes thats necessary The hard trick is to recognise when
it is and equally importantly when it isnt
and only interfering when its truly
necessary
Why would it be necessary What right do we have to interfere
IMO it isnt often that interference ie jail and force of various
kinds and degrees is both necessary and effective Where you derive
the right to interfere is a difficult question its a sort of
liars paradox force is necessary for freedom One possible justification
is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldnt object if
their own freedom is taken away the paradox doesnt arise if
we dont actively wish to take way anyones freedom
The introduction of permissible interference causes the problem
that it can be either too much or too little but most people seem
to agree that some level of interference is necessary
They see the need for a justice system How can we even define that term
Only by consensus I guess
Thus you
get a situation where The law often allows what honour forbids which Ive
come to believe is as it should be
I admit I dont understand that statement
What I mean is that while thusandsuch may be legal thusandsuch may
also be seen as immoral The law lets you do it but you dont let yourself
do it Eating meat for example
Frank ODwyer Im not hatching That
odwyersseie from Hens by Evelyn Conlon
preprocess doc From: n4hy@harder.ccr-p.ida.org (Bob McGwier)
Subject: Re: NAVSTAR positions
Organization: IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: harder.ccr-p.ida.org
In-reply-to: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se's message of 19 Apr 93 06:34:55 GMT
You have missed something. There is a big difference between being in
the SAME PLANE and in exactly the same state (positions and velocities
equal). IN addition to this, there has always been redundancies proposed.
Bob
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert W. McGwier | n4hy@ccr-p.ida.org
Center for Communications Research | Interests: amateur radio, astronomy,golf
Princeton, N.J. 08520 | Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700, Hightstown
after prepro From n4hyharderccrpidaorg Bob McGwier
Subject Re NAVSTAR positions
Organization IDA Center for Communications Research
Lines 11
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost harderccrpidaorg
Inreplyto ThomasEnblomeosericssonses message of 19 Apr 93 063455 GMT
You have missed something There is a big difference between being in
the SAME PLANE and in exactly the same state positions and velocities
equal IN addition to this there has always been redundancies proposed
Bob
Robert W McGwier n4hyccrpidaorg
Center for Communications Research Interests amateur radio astronomygolf
Princeton NJ 08520 Asst Scoutmaster Troop 5700 Hightstown
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 76
In article <115687@bu.edu>
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
(deletion)
>Sure. Yes, I did. You see I don't think that rape and murder should
>be dealt with lightly. You, being so interested in leniency for
>leniency's sake, apparently think that people should simply be
>told the "did a _bad_ thing."
>
Straw man. And you brought up leniency.
>>And what about the simple chance of misjudgements?
>
>Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible.
>I suspect that it's pretty unlikely that, given my requirement
>of repeated offenses, that misjudgments are very likely.
>
Assuming that misjudgements are not correlated.
(Deletion)
>>I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
>>not to call each others names. In this case, to substantiate it: The Quran
>>allows that one beATs one's wife into submission.
>
>
>Really? Care to give chapter and verse? We could discuss it.
>
Has been discussed here. Chapter and verse were cited, I assume that you
weren't looking then.
Let's be more exact, do you think it is not in the Quran?. And what would
your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it?
>>Primitive Machism refers to
>>that. (I have misspelt that before, my fault).
>
>Again, not all of the Orient follows the Qur'an. So you'll have to do
>better than that.
>
I have not claimed that. It is sufficient for the argument when there are
a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as Machistic. Are you going
to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the
Orient?
(Deletion)
>This is an argument for why _you_ don't like religions that suppress
>sex. A such it's an irrelevant argument.
>
>If you'd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
>fine. My response is then: you have given no reason for your statement
>that sex is not the business of religion (one of your "arguments").
>
>The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
>measures are required to suppress it. If the urge to have sex is so
>strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
>find a marriage partner.
>
You apparently have trouble reading things you don't like. The point was
having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire. Marriage is a red
herring. Tell me about homosexuals, for one. You simply ignore everything
that doesn't fit into the world as you would like to have it.
And as for the situation of adolescents, one has probably keep your
combination of leniency and maiming in mind, whe you say that it does
not take *overly* strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in
adolescents.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 76
In article 115687buedu
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
deletion
Sure Yes I did You see I dont think that rape and murder should
be dealt with lightly You being so interested in leniency for
leniencys sake apparently think that people should simply be
told the did a _bad_ thing
Straw man And you brought up leniency
And what about the simple chance of misjudgements
Misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible
I suspect that its pretty unlikely that given my requirement
of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely
Assuming that misjudgements are not correlated
Deletion
I just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers
not to call each others names In this case to substantiate it The Quran
allows that one beATs ones wife into submission
Really Care to give chapter and verse We could discuss it
Has been discussed here Chapter and verse were cited I assume that you
werent looking then
Lets be more exact do you think it is not in the Quran And what would
your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it
Primitive Machism refers to
that I have misspelt that before my fault
Again not all of the Orient follows the Quran So youll have to do
better than that
I have not claimed that It is sufficient for the argument when there are
a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as Machistic Are you going
to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the
Orient
Deletion
This is an argument for why _you_ dont like religions that suppress
sex A such its an irrelevant argument
If youd like to generalize it to an objective statement then
fine My response is then you have given no reason for your statement
that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments
The urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong
measures are required to suppress it If the urge to have sex is so
strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to
find a marriage partner
You apparently have trouble reading things you dont like The point was
having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire Marriage is a red
herring Tell me about homosexuals for one You simply ignore everything
that doesnt fit into the world as you would like to have it
And as for the situation of adolescents one has probably keep your
combination of leniency and maiming in mind whe you say that it does
not take overly strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in
adolescents
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
>died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
>behaviour, entirely by chance.
That's the entire point!
>Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
>organism evolves cooperative behaviour?
Yes!
Natural morality is a morality that developed naturally.
>What about the natural morality of bee dance?
Huh?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour entirely by chance
Thats the entire point
Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour
Yes
Natural morality is a morality that developed naturally
What about the natural morality of bee dance
Huh
keith
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: p00261@psilink.com (Robert Knowles)
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.163050.13308@wam.umd.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 22
>DATE: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 16:30:50 GMT
>FROM: Stilgar <west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu>
>
>In article <kmr4.1422.733983061@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.
>Ryan) writes:
>> In article <1993Apr5.025924.11361@wam.umd.edu>
>west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
>>
>> >THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GOD(tm) *prove me wrong*
>>
>> I dispute it.
>>
>> Ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong.
>
> I dispute your counter-example
>
> Ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and
> I am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
> 8^p
>
This looks like a serious case of temporary Islam.
after prepro Subject Re Gospel Dating
From p00261psilinkcom Robert Knowles
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
InReplyTo 1993Apr516305013308wamumdedu
NntpPostingHost 127001
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 22
DATE Mon 5 Apr 1993 163050 GMT
FROM Stilgar
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M
Ryan writes
In article 1993Apr502592411361wamumdedu
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GODtm prove me wrong
I dispute it
Ergo by counterexample you are proven wrong
I dispute your counterexample
Ergo by countercounterexample you are wrong and
I am right so nannynannybooboo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
8^p
This looks like a serious case of temporary Islam
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Bill Conner:
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 17
In article <C4y976.MLr@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>Could you explain what any of this pertains to? Is this a position
>statement on something or typing practice? And why are you using my
>name, do you think this relates to anything I've said and if so, what.
>
>Bill
Could you explain what any of the above pertains to? Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice?
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Bill Conner
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 17
In article bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner writes
Could you explain what any of this pertains to Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice And why are you using my
name do you think this relates to anything Ive said and if so what
Bill
Could you explain what any of the above pertains to Is this a position
statement on something or typing practice
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: pushing the envelope
Article-I.D.: rave.1psogpINNksq
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA USA
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
> flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what
> is going to be 'pushed' and how
> far is precisely planned (despite occasional deviations from plans,
> such as the 'early' first flight of the F-16 during its high-speed
> taxi tests).
.. and Chuck Yeager earlier flights with the X-1...
C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re pushing the envelope
ArticleID rave1psogpINNksq
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Distribution world
Organization NASA Langley Research Center Hampton VA USA
Lines 11
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what
is going to be pushed and how
far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans
such as the early first flight of the F16 during its highspeed
taxi tests
and Chuck Yeager earlier flights with the X1
COEGALONLARCNASAGOV
preprocess doc From: uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Reply-To: uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote)
Organization: Never Had It, Never Will
Lines: 14
In sci.astro, dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
[ a nearly perfect parody -- needed more random CAPS]
Thanks for the chuckle. (I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia!)
To those who've taken this seriously, READ THE NAME! (aloud)
--
Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Enjoy the buffet!
after prepro From uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ReplyTo uphrrmkgeminioscsmontanaedu Jack Coyote
Organization Never Had It Never Will
Lines 14
In sciastro dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
[ a nearly perfect parody needed more random CAPS]
Thanks for the chuckle I loved the bit about relevance to people starving
in Somalia
To those whove taken this seriously READ THE NAME aloud
Thank you thank you Ill be here all week Enjoy the buffet
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 23
In article <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
(Deletion)
>#>Few people can imagine dying for capitalism, a few
>#>more can imagine dying for democracy, but a lot more will die for their
>#>Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who Died on the Cross for their Sins.
>#>Motivation, pure and simple.
>
>Got any cites for this nonsense? How many people will die for Mom?
>Patriotism? Freedom? Money? Their Kids? Fast cars and swimming pools?
>A night with Kim Basinger or Mel Gibson? And which of these things are evil?
>
Read a history book, Fred. And tell me why so many religions command to
commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion. Or why so many
religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse
than dieing? Coincidence, I assume. Or ist part of the absolute morality
you describe so often?
Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes. Irrational
belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 23
In article 1qi83bec4horusapmchpsnide
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Deletion
Few people can imagine dying for capitalism a few
more can imagine dying for democracy but a lot more will die for their
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who Died on the Cross for their Sins
Motivation pure and simple
Got any cites for this nonsense How many people will die for Mom
Patriotism Freedom Money Their Kids Fast cars and swimming pools
A night with Kim Basinger or Mel Gibson And which of these things are evil
Read a history book Fred And tell me why so many religions command to
commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion Or why so many
religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse
than dieing Coincidence I assume Or ist part of the absolute morality
you describe so often
Theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes Irrational
belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 27
In article <STEINLY.93Apr21152344@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>Seriously though. If you were to ask the British government
>whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
>effective, what answer do you think you'd get? What if you asked
>in 1765, 1815, 1865, 1915 and 1945 respectively? ;-)
What do you mean? Are you saying they thought the effort was
profitable or that the money was efficiently spent (providing max
value per money spent)?
I think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions. Exceptions
would be places like the US from the French Indian War to the end of
the US Revolution.
But even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the
British engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies.
Five years after the American Revolution England was still the largest
US trading partner.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 27
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Seriously though If you were to ask the British government
whether their colonisation efforts in the Americas were cost
effective what answer do you think youd get What if you asked
in 1765 1815 1865 1915 and 1945 respectively
What do you mean Are you saying they thought the effort was
profitable or that the money was efficiently spent providing max
value per money spent
I think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions Exceptions
would be places like the US from the French Indian War to the end of
the US Revolution
But even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the
British engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies
Five years after the American Revolution England was still the largest
US trading partner
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
55 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Yeah, Right
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: agar.engin.umich.edu
In article <66014@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Benedikt Rosenau writes:
>
>>And what about that revelation thing, Charley?
>
>If you're talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation, well,
>it's obviously a risk one takes.
Ah, now here is the core question. Let me suggest a scenario.
We will grant that a God exists, and uses revelation to communicate
with humans. (Said revelation taking the form (paraphrased from your
own words) 'This infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck,
makes him take dictation, and then hides away for a few hundred years'.)
Now, there exists a human who has not personally experienced a
revelation. This person observes that not only do these revelations seem
to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the
observed world (which is all this person has ever seen), but there are
many mutually contradictory claims of revelation.
Now, based on this, can this person be blamed for concluding, absent
a personal revelation of their own, that there is almost certainly
nothing to this 'revelation' thing?
>I'm not an objectivist, so I'm not particularly impressed with problems of
>conceptualization. The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
>trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
>experience. One can get some rough understanding, but the language is, from
>the perspective of ordinary phenomena, inconsistent, and from the
>perspective of what's being described, rather inexact (to be charitable).
>
>An analogous situation (supposedly) obtains in metaphysics; the problem is
>that the "better" descriptive language is not available.
Absent this better language, and absent observations in support of the
claims of revelation, can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing?
Here is what I am driving at: I have thought a long time about this. I
have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity, it is
nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that I am familiar with.
Now, if there does happen to be, say, a Christian God, will I be held
accountable for such an honest mistake?
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu
"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Yeah Right
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 49
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost agarenginumichedu
In article 66014mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Benedikt Rosenau writes
And what about that revelation thing Charley
If youre talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well
its obviously a risk one takes
Ah now here is the core question Let me suggest a scenario
We will grant that a God exists and uses revelation to communicate
with humans Said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your
own words This infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck
makes him take dictation and then hides away for a few hundred years
Now there exists a human who has not personally experienced a
revelation This person observes that not only do these revelations seem
to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the
observed world which is all this person has ever seen but there are
many mutually contradictory claims of revelation
Now based on this can this person be blamed for concluding absent
a personal revelation of their own that there is almost certainly
nothing to this revelation thing
Im not an objectivist so Im not particularly impressed with problems of
conceptualization The problem in this case is at least as bad as that of
trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary
experience One can get some rough understanding but the language is from
the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the
perspective of whats being described rather inexact to be charitable
An analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is
that the better descriptive language is not available
Absent this better language and absent observations in support of the
claims of revelation can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing
Here is what I am driving at I have thought a long time about this I
have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity it is
nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that I am familiar with
Now if there does happen to be say a Christian God will I be held
accountable for such an honest mistake
Sincerely
Ray Ingles inglesenginumichedu
The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars Robert A Heinlein
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <19930422.121236.246@almaden.ibm.com>, Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert) writes:
> 3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
> This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.
Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "Level 5" comes
from? It sounds like the RISKS Digest equivalent of Large, Extra
Large, Jumbo... Or maybe it's like "Defcon 5..."
I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1, or cheesy dime-store software. Not
surprising. But who is it that invents this standard, and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it?
Of course, what Shakespeare | Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey
ORIGINALLY wrote was "First thing | Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
we do, let's kill all the EDITORS."| Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
But for some reason it didn't | Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
survive past the first draft. | SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS
-- David D. "Laserdave" Levine (davidl@ssd.intel.com)
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Level 5
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 19930422121236246almadenibmcom WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert writes
3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA
Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term Level 5 comes
from It sounds like the RISKS Digest equivalent of Large Extra
Large Jumbo Or maybe its like Defcon 5
I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1 or cheesy dimestore software Not
surprising But who is it that invents this standard and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it
Of course what Shakespeare Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
ORIGINALLY wrote was First thing Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
we do lets kill all the EDITORS Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET
But for some reason it didnt Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV
survive past the first draft SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS
David D Laserdave Levine davidlssdintelcom
preprocess doc Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
From: Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
<dxb105.734155421@aries> <1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu>
<dxb105.734495289@virgo> <1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
<93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>
Lines: 38
In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
says:
>In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon
><SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>>This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought
>>not to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
>>think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
>>Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
>>larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
>>they will simply be able to afford more stuff.
>
>If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
>economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste*
>on a lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
>but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military,
>scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than just a "we have
>the money, why not?" approach.
I was assuming that there won't be a moon base unless it makes a
profit, actually. If it does, well, that gives a larger GNP which
leads to being able to spend more money on your military, including
gosh-wow space stuff. (assuming it's profitable, rather than paying
for itself.)
>
>It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
>that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
>Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
>years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
>levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
>put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
>use grad students?
You might be able to _run_ one for that; put it there, hardly.
Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon?
Graydon
after prepro Organization Queens University at Kingston
From Graydon
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu
1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp
Lines 38
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
says
In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon
writes
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought
not to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff
If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste
on a lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military
scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have
the money why not approach
I was assuming that there wont be a moon base unless it makes a
profit actually If it does well that gives a larger GNP which
leads to being able to spend more money on your military including
goshwow space stuff assuming its profitable rather than paying
for itself
Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students
You might be able to _run_ one for that put it there hardly
Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon
Graydon
preprocess doc From: chrisb@tafe.sa.edu.au (Chris BELL)
Subject: Re: Don't more innocents die without the death penalty?
Organization: South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: baarnie.tafe.sa.edu.au
"James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:
>By maintaining classes D and E, even in prison, it seems as if we
>place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than
>we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error.
I would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
mistake. Though I do agree with the concept that the type D and E murderers
are a massive waste of space and resources I don't agree with the concept:
killing is wrong
if you kill we will punish you
our punishment will be to kill you.
Seems to be lacking in consistency.
--
"I know" is nothing more than "I believe" with pretentions.
after prepro From chrisbtafesaeduau Chris BELL
Subject Re Dont more innocents die without the death penalty
Organization South Australian Regional Academic and Research Network
Lines 19
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost baarnietafesaeduau
James F Tims writes
By maintaining classes D and E even in prison it seems as if we
place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than
we would if the state executed classes D and E with an occasional error
I would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
mistake Though I do agree with the concept that the type D and E murderers
are a massive waste of space and resources I dont agree with the concept
killing is wrong
if you kill we will punish you
our punishment will be to kill you
Seems to be lacking in consistency
I know is nothing more than I believe with pretentions
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 63
In article <1993Apr14.121134.12187@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>In article <C5C7Cn.5GB@ra.nrl.navy.mil> khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
>I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeini's fatwa etc.
>I found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the "fatwa":
>"It was also common knowledge as prescribed by Islamic law, that the
>sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of Islamic law
>applies. Moreover, the sentence has to be passed by an Islamic court
>and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law.
>Even in Islamic countries, let alone in non-Muslim lands, individuals
>cannot take the law into their own hands. The sentence when passed,
>must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by
>individuals. Indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into
>one's own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of
>self-defence. Moreover, the offender must be brought to the notice of
>the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him.
>This law applies equally to Muslim as well as non-Muslim territories.
I agree fully with the above statement and is *precisely* what I meant
by my previous statements about Islam not being anarchist and the
law not being _enforcible_ despite the _law_ being applicable.
>Hence, on such clarification from the ulama [Islamic scholars], Muslims
>in Britain before and after Imam Khomeini's fatwa made it very clear
>that since Islamic law is not applicable to Britain, the hadd
>[compulsory] punishment cannot be applied here."
I disagree with this conclusion about the _applicability_ of the
Islamic law to all muslims, wherever they may be. The above conclusion
does not strictly follow from the foregoing, but only the conclusion
that the fatwa cannot be *enforced* according to Islamic law. However,
I do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to Rushdie even *were*
it well founded.
>Wow... from the above, it looks like that from an Islamic viewpoint
>Khomeini's "fatwa" constitutes a "criminal act" .... perhaps I could
>even go out on a limb and call Khomeini a "criminal" on this basis....
Certainly putting a price on the head of Rushdie in Britain is a criminal
act according to Islamic law.
>Anyhow, I think it is understood by _knowledgeable_ Muslims that
>Khomeini's "fatwa" is Islamically illegitimate, at least on the basis
>expounded above. Others, such as myself and others who have posted here
>(particularly Umar Khan and Gregg Jaeger, I think) go further and say
>that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against Islamic law
>according to our understanding.
Yes.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 63
In article 1993Apr1412113412187monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In article khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
I just borrowed a book from the library on Khomeinis fatwa etc
I found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the fatwa
It was also common knowledge as prescribed by Islamic law that the
sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of Islamic law
applies Moreover the sentence has to be passed by an Islamic court
and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law
Even in Islamic countries let alone in nonMuslim lands individuals
cannot take the law into their own hands The sentence when passed
must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by
individuals Indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into
ones own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of
selfdefence Moreover the offender must be brought to the notice of
the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him
This law applies equally to Muslim as well as nonMuslim territories
I agree fully with the above statement and is precisely what I meant
by my previous statements about Islam not being anarchist and the
law not being _enforcible_ despite the _law_ being applicable
Hence on such clarification from the ulama [Islamic scholars] Muslims
in Britain before and after Imam Khomeinis fatwa made it very clear
that since Islamic law is not applicable to Britain the hadd
[compulsory] punishment cannot be applied here
I disagree with this conclusion about the _applicability_ of the
Islamic law to all muslims wherever they may be The above conclusion
does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion
that the fatwa cannot be enforced according to Islamic law However
I do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to Rushdie even were
it well founded
Wow from the above it looks like that from an Islamic viewpoint
Khomeinis fatwa constitutes a criminal act perhaps I could
even go out on a limb and call Khomeini a criminal on this basis
Certainly putting a price on the head of Rushdie in Britain is a criminal
act according to Islamic law
Anyhow I think it is understood by _knowledgeable_ Muslims that
Khomeinis fatwa is Islamically illegitimate at least on the basis
expounded above Others such as myself and others who have posted here
particularly Umar Khan and Gregg Jaeger I think go further and say
that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against Islamic law
according to our understanding
Yes
Gregg
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: NAVSTAR positions
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 7
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
C-3's bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon.
or C-3 may orbit over major users areas, and it may be
needed to provide redundancy on that plane while b-4 may orbit
over hicksville, and not have muc of a user community.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re NAVSTAR positions
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 7
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
C3s bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon
or C3 may orbit over major users areas and it may be
needed to provide redundancy on that plane while b4 may orbit
over hicksville and not have muc of a user community
pat
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 19
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <1993Apr16.151729.8610@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>Josh Hopkins (jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) replied:
>: Double wow. Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall?
>Personnally, I don't know, but I'd like to try it sometime.
Are you volunteering? :)
> But a
>hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de-orbit
>to the next available landing site.
Will NASA have "available landing sites" in the Russian Republic, now that they
are Our Friends and Comrades?
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 19
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article 1993Apr161517298610aiojscnasagov kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov writes
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu replied
Double wow Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall
Personnally I dont know but Id like to try it sometime
Are you volunteering
But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately deorbit
to the next available landing site
Will NASA have available landing sites in the Russian Republic now that they
are Our Friends and Comrades
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: ven@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Van E. Neie)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Purdue University Physics Department
Lines: 29
In article <1993Apr22.180630.18313@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> pearson@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (N. Shirlene Pearson) writes:
>jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>
>
>>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Would you mind posting the responses you get?
>I am also interested, and there may be others.
>
>Thanks,
>
>N. Shirlene Pearson
>pearson@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
There is an excellent software program called Astro.calc that does that and
much more. The latest address I have is
MMI Corporation
PO Box 19907
Baltimore, MD 21211
Phone (301) 366-1222
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Van E. Neie ven@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu
Purdue University neie@purccvm.bitnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From venbohrphysicspurdueedu Van E Neie
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Purdue University Physics Department
Lines 29
In article 1993Apr2218063018313titantsdarlututexasedu pearsontsdarlututexasedu N Shirlene Pearson writes
jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
Would you mind posting the responses you get
I am also interested and there may be others
Thanks
N Shirlene Pearson
pearsontitantsdarlututexasedu
There is an excellent software program called Astrocalc that does that and
much more The latest address I have is
MMI Corporation
PO Box 19907
Baltimore MD 21211
Phone 301 3661222
Van E Neie venmaxwellphysicspurdueedu
Purdue University neiepurccvmbitnet
preprocess doc From: madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines: 28
1. Did you read the FAQs?
2. If NO, Read the FAQs.
3. IF YES, you wouldn't have posted such drivel. The "Lord, Liar
or Lunatic" argument is a false trilemma. Even if you disprove
Liar and Lunatic (which you haven't), you have not eliminated
the other possibilities, such as Mistaken, Misdirected, or
Misunderstood. You have arbitrarily set up three and only
three possibilities without considering others.
4. Read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking. If
you think the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" discussion is an
example of a good argument, you are in need of learning.
5. Read the FAQs again, especially "Constructing a Logical
Argument."
Ignore these instructions at your peril. Disobeying them
leaves you open for righteous flaming.
--
Maddi Hausmann madhaus@netcom.com
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 408/428-3553
Kids, please don't try this at home. Remember, I post professionally.
after prepro From madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
Lines 28
1 Did you read the FAQs
2 If NO Read the FAQs
3 IF YES you wouldnt have posted such drivel The Lord Liar
or Lunatic argument is a false trilemma Even if you disprove
Liar and Lunatic which you havent you have not eliminated
the other possibilities such as Mistaken Misdirected or
Misunderstood You have arbitrarily set up three and only
three possibilities without considering others
4 Read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking If
you think the Lord Liar or Lunatic discussion is an
example of a good argument you are in need of learning
5 Read the FAQs again especially Constructing a Logical
Argument
Ignore these instructions at your peril Disobeying them
leaves you open for righteous flaming
Maddi Hausmann madhausnetcomcom
Centigram Communications Corp San Jose California 4084283553
Kids please dont try this at home Remember I post professionally
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr23.103038.27467@bnr.ca>, agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter) writes...
>In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|> 3. On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
>|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
>
>This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
>someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
>
The Command Loss Timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the
spacecraft. If the Command Loss Timer ever countdowns to zero, then the
spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with Earth and will go
through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact. The
Command Loss Timer is set to 264 hours and reset about once a week during
the cruise phase, and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Galileo JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr2310303827467bnrca agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter writes
In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
3 On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
The Command Loss Timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the
spacecraft If the Command Loss Timer ever countdowns to zero then the
spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with Earth and will go
through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact The
Command Loss Timer is set to 264 hours and reset about once a week during
the cruise phase and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 21
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>>>should not have available to use.
>>It is worse than others?
>Worse? Maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the
>rules the US govt. supposedly follows.
Oh?
>>>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
>>> "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"
>>Would you approve of such a motto?
>No. ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
>was to change it to such as that.
What is wrong with *this* motto, now? If you wouldn't approve of
even that one, I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general. What do you think of "E plurbis unum?"
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re writes
Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use
It is worse than others
Worse Maybe not but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt supposedly follows
Oh
For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
In god gods or godlessness we trust
Would you approve of such a motto
No not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that
What is wrong with this motto now If you wouldnt approve of
even that one I am beginning to think that you just have something
against mottos in general What do you think of E plurbis unum
keith
preprocess doc From: Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Surviving Large Accelerations?
Organization: Junior, Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
Hi,
I was reading through "The Spaceflight Handbook" and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit. The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g. He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans (and this was published
in 1986) have already withstood accelerations of 45g. All this is very
long-winded but here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
Can this be extended to larger accelerations?
Thanks is advance...
-Amruth Laxman
after prepro From Amruth Laxman
Subject Surviving Large Accelerations
Organization Junior Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
Hi
I was reading through The Spaceflight Handbook and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published
in 1986 have already withstood accelerations of 45g All this is very
longwinded but heres my question finally Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration
Can this be extended to larger accelerations
Thanks is advance
Amruth Laxman
preprocess doc From: jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu (Jim Scotti)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr21.170817.15845@sq.sq.com> msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
>> > >
>> > > April 1973 83 jupiter radii
>> > > August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
>
>> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. ...
>
>> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
>
>Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?
Neil Gehrels is Prof. Tom Gehrels son. Tom Gehrels was the discoverer
of P/Gehrels 3 (as well as about 4 other comets - the latest of which
does not bear his name, but rather the name "Spacewatch" since he was
observing with that system when he found the latest comet).
>--
>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- The Prisoner
---------------------------------------------
Jim Scotti
{jscotti@lpl.arizona.edu}
Lunar & Planetary Laboratory
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721 USA
---------------------------------------------
after prepro From jscottilplarizonaedu Jim Scotti
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Lunar Planetary Laboratory Tucson AZ
Lines 33
In article 1993Apr2117081715845sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius 71000 km 44000 mi 00005 AU
Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
Neil Gehrels is Prof Tom Gehrels son Tom Gehrels was the discoverer
of PGehrels 3 as well as about 4 other comets the latest of which
does not bear his name but rather the name Spacewatch since he was
observing with that system when he found the latest comet
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Information We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom The Prisoner
Jim Scotti
jscottilplarizonaedu
Lunar Planetary Laboratory
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721 USA
preprocess doc From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 31
Jeff.Cook@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM (Jeff Cook) writes:
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>>it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
>I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
>effect on the overall sky brightness. Venus is visible during the day,
>but nobody complains about that. Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
When I was at the Texas Star Party a few years ago, the sky was so dark
that Venus did, indeed, cause light pollution until it set.
Even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem. Imagine observing an
object and halfway through your run, your object was occulted!
I would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not
fanatically serious observers.
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
George Krumins
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| George Krumins |
| gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |
after prepro From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 31
JeffCookFtCollinsCONCRCOM Jeff Cook writes
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
Now Space Marketing
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that Besides its in LEO so it would only
When I was at the Texas Star Party a few years ago the sky was so dark
that Venus did indeed cause light pollution until it set
Even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem Imagine observing an
object and halfway through your run your object was occulted
I would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not
fanatically serious observers
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
George Krumins
George Krumins
gfk39017uxacsouiucedu
preprocess doc From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: unix.C52Cw7.I6t
Organization: Blasny Blasny, Consolidated (Amherst, MA Offices)
Lines: 37
In article <1993Apr6.041343.24997@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Roger and I have
>clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
>specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
>the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").
>
>There is really nothing else to discuss.
Apparently not.
In response to his claim that it "terrifies" gay people not to be able
to "indoctrinate children to our lifestyle" (or words to that effect),
I sent Roger a very calm, carefully-written, detailed letter
explaining simply why the BSA policy does, indeed terrify me. I did
not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an
answer. Thus far, I have not received an answer. I can conclude only
that Roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not
worth defending.
>Trying to cloud the issue
>with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
>because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
>control their race but they can control their behavior).
In fact, that's exactly the point: people can control their behavior.
Because of that fact, there is no need for a blanket ban on
homosexuals.
>What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?
You tell me.
--
____ Tim Pierce / ?Usted es la de la tele, eh? !La madre
\ / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / del asesino! !Ay, que graciosa!
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Pedro Almodovar
after prepro From twpierceunixamherstedu Tim Pierce
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID unixC52Cw7I6t
Organization Blasny Blasny Consolidated Amherst MA Offices
Lines 37
In article 1993Apr604134324997cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes
Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight
There is really nothing else to discuss
Apparently not
In response to his claim that it terrifies gay people not to be able
to indoctrinate children to our lifestyle or words to that effect
I sent Roger a very calm carefullywritten detailed letter
explaining simply why the BSA policy does indeed terrify me I did
not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an
answer Thus far I have not received an answer I can conclude only
that Roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not
worth defending
Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because its like comparing apples to oranges ie people cant
control their race but they can control their behavior
In fact thats exactly the point people can control their behavior
Because of that fact there is no need for a blanket ban on
homosexuals
What else is there to possibly discuss on recscouting on this issue
You tell me
____ Tim Pierce Usted es la de la tele eh La madre
\ twpierceunixamherstedu del asesino Ay que graciosa
\ BITnet TWPIERCEAMHERST Pedro Almodovar
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 30
In article <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com> pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:
>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M". They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.
>
>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal? I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
The situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years.
See the discussion of "high-power rocketry" in the rec.models.rockets
frequently-asked-questions list.
This is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy; you need
proper certification. That can be had, mostly through Tripoli (the high-
power analog of the NAR), although the NAR is cautiously moving to extend
the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too.
You need special FAA authorization, but provided you aren't doing it under
one of the LAX runway approaches or something stupid like that, it's not
especially hard to arrange.
As with model rocketry, this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled
properly. Proper handling takes more care, and you need a lot more empty
air to fly in, but it's basically just model rocketry scaled up. As with
model rocketry, the high-power people use factory-built engines, which
eliminates the major safety hazard of do-it-yourself rocketry.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 30
In article pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes
Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet
Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
The situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years
See the discussion of highpower rocketry in the recmodelsrockets
frequentlyaskedquestions list
This is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy you need
proper certification That can be had mostly through Tripoli the high
power analog of the NAR although the NAR is cautiously moving to extend
the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too
You need special FAA authorization but provided you arent doing it under
one of the LAX runway approaches or something stupid like that its not
especially hard to arrange
As with model rocketry this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled
properly Proper handling takes more care and you need a lot more empty
air to fly in but its basically just model rocketry scaled up As with
model rocketry the highpower people use factorybuilt engines which
eliminates the major safety hazard of doityourself rocketry
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
<1p6rgcINNhfb@gap.caltech.edu> <1p88fi$4vv@fido.asd.sgi.com>
<1993Mar30.051246.29911@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <1p8nd7$e9f@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1pa0stINNpqa@gap.caltech.edu> <1pan4f$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20
In article <1pieg7INNs09@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says "Here is an "objective
|> >moral system". And then I start to ask him about the definitions
|> >that this "objective" system depends on, and, predictably, the whole
|> >thing falls apart.
|>
|> It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it. This doesn't mean that
|> an objective system can't exist. It just means that one cannot be
|> implemented.
It's not the fact that it can't exist that bothers me. It's
the fact that you don't seem to be able to define it.
If I wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in
principle exist as long as you don't think about them too
carefully, I could ask a religious person, now couldn't I?
jon.
after prepro zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re 1p88fi4vvfidoasdsgicom
1993Mar3005124629911blazecsjhuedu 1p8nd7e9ffidoasdsgicom 1pa0stINNpqagapcaltechedu 1pan4fb6jfidoasdsgicom
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20
In article 1pieg7INNs09gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says Here is an objective
moral system And then I start to ask him about the definitions
that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole
thing falls apart
It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it This doesnt mean that
an objective system cant exist It just means that one cannot be
implemented
Its not the fact that it cant exist that bothers me Its
the fact that you dont seem to be able to define it
If I wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in
principle exist as long as you dont think about them too
carefully I could ask a religious person now couldnt I
jon
preprocess doc From: Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Co. Software Services
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
<1993Apr23.124759.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>
Lines: 29
In <1993Apr23.124759.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey writes:
>In article <19930422.121236.246@almaden.ibm.com>, Wingert@vnet.IBM.COM (Bret Wingert) writes:
>> 3. The Onboard Flight Software project was rated "Level 5" by a NASA team.
>> This group generates 20-40 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA.
>
>Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term "Level 5" comes
>from? It sounds like the RISKS Digest equivalent of Large, Extra
>Large, Jumbo... Or maybe it's like "Defcon 5..."
>
>I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
>care to have reliablility and safety, and almost everything else in
>the computing world is Level 1, or cheesy dime-store software. Not
>surprising. But who is it that invents this standard, and how come
>everyone but me seems to be familiar with it?
Level 5 refers to the Carnegie-Mellon Software Engineering Institute's
Capability Maturity Model. This model rates software development
org's from1-5. with 1 being Chaotic and 5 being Optimizing. DoD is
beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts. I
have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000. I have a 20-30 page
presentation that summarizes it wethat I could FAX to you if you're
interested...
Bret Wingert
Wingert@VNET.IBM.COM
(713)-282-7534
FAX: (713)-282-8077
after prepro From WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert
Subject Re Level 5
Organization IBM Federal Systems Co Software Services
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
1993Apr231247591fnalffnalgov
Lines 29
In 1993Apr231247591fnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
In article 19930422121236246almadenibmcom WingertvnetIBMCOM Bret Wingert writes
3 The Onboard Flight Software project was rated Level 5 by a NASA team
This group generates 2040 KSLOCs of verified code per year for NASA
Will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term Level 5 comes
from It sounds like the RISKS Digest equivalent of Large Extra
Large Jumbo Or maybe its like Defcon 5
I gather it means that Shuttle software was developed with extreme
care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in
the computing world is Level 1 or cheesy dimestore software Not
surprising But who is it that invents this standard and how come
everyone but me seems to be familiar with it
Level 5 refers to the CarnegieMellon Software Engineering Institutes
Capability Maturity Model This model rates software development
orgs from15 with 1 being Chaotic and 5 being Optimizing DoD is
beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts I
have more data on thifrom 1 page to 1000 I have a 2030 page
presentation that summarizes it wethat I could FAX to you if youre
interested
Bret Wingert
WingertVNETIBMCOM
7132827534
FAX 7132828077
preprocess doc From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Subject: Re: EnviroLeague
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 117
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com
A new alternative to Scouting for those "unacceptable to BSA" for reasons
of religious or sexual preference:
From: "BOYD R. CRITZ, III" <71611.365@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: EnviroLeague
"Birth Announcement" on March 7, 1993, from EARTH Forum, CompuServe
Information Service
===================================================================
FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT
-------------------
(SM)
EnviroLeague
A new youth movement,"EnviroLeague," was recently born, according to its
founder, Boyd R. Critz, III (CIS ID# 71611,365), of Peoria, Illinois.
EnviroLeague exists for the education of youth, both male and female, in
matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our
environment.
Incorporated as an Illinois not-for-profit corporation, its Articles and
initial applications for a service mark have now been filed. According to
Critz, its draft Bylaws contain the following statement of Mission and
Objectives:
MISSION
It is the Mission of EnviroLeague and its adult members
to foster and implement the improved education of young
people in the need to conduct their lives as Stewards
of The Earth, to leave The Earth in a better condition
than they found it, and to otherwise act as responsible,
moral and ethical users of their environment. To pursue
the accomplishment of this Mission, EnviroLeague shall
seek to serve as a catalyst, focusing in common cause the
separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation,
improvement, and responsible use of the environment in
which we must all live.
OBJECTIVES
In pursuit of the Mission of EnviroLeague, its primary
objectives shall be:
(1) To establish a Movement involving as many
environmentally concerned organizations as
possible, said Movement having as its primary
focus the education and participatory
involvement of young people in appropriate areas
of environmental concern;
(2) To develop and provide to such organizations and
their branches a full complement of program
materials for their use, including suitable
uniforms, insignia and other badges, written
ideas, syllabi and information, literature and
other items as shall seem appropriate and
desirable;
(3) To serve as a "clearing house" for the exchange
of program ideas, materials and information
among said organizations; and
(4) To assist environmentally concerned
organizations to recruit and train the necessary
adult leadership for their youth programs.
EnviroLeague will operate through three "Program Divisions" serving youth in
the elementary, middle and high school grades, respectively. Service shall be
through formation of "EnviroLeague Teams," either by EnviroLeague itself or by
environmentally conscious organizations (or their local branches) wishing a
charter to use programs developed by EnviroLeague.
EnviroLeague, as it develops, will be controlled by the actual adult leaders
of each local Team, and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to
membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper
conduct. Organizations accepting a charter may, however, impose certain
additional standards for their own use of the program material. Should such
organizations do so, EnviroLeague will commit itself to forming, as soon as
possible, new nearby Teams having no such restrictions, particularly as to
youth membership.
EnviroLeague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to
contribute to developing its programs. Thus, the top youth leaders of its
Teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any
local administrative groups, and those for its high school youth may be
involved in similar functions at the national level.
Program materials are in development at this time. Copies of the "draft"
portions of the Mentor's Manual (manual for adult leadership) will be in the
EARTH Forum, Library 17. These files will be updated as development takes
place.
CompuServe is particularly proud that EnviroLeague's founder chose this
electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation.
This announcement is being made simultaneously in both the OUTDOOR and EARTH
Forums.
The electronic home of EnviroLeague is in CompuServe's Earth Forum - GO
EARTH - message and library areas 17, both named "EnviroLeague."
============================================================================
Subsequently, EnviroLeague's Initial Governance Council has held its first
meeting. Boyd Critz was elected as the first EnviroLeague Chief Guardian
(equivalent to Chairman of the Board or CEO). He can be reached at home
(309) 675-4483 in case of real need. Also, mail can be addressed to:
EnviroLeague
P.O. Box 418
Peoria, IL 61651-0418
Those interested in starting an EnviroLeague Team might just establish
contact, to receive a diskette (IBM DOS, ASCII) with initial information.
--
cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...
after prepro From cdtswstratuscom C D Tavares
Subject Re EnviroLeague
Organization Stratus Computer Inc
Lines 117
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost rocketswstratuscom
A new alternative to Scouting for those unacceptable to BSA for reasons
of religious or sexual preference
From BOYD R CRITZ III 71611365CompuServeCOM
Subject EnviroLeague
Birth Announcement on March 7 1993 from EARTH Forum CompuServe
Information Service
FORMAL ANNOUNCEMENT
SM
EnviroLeague
A new youth movementEnviroLeague was recently born according to its
founder Boyd R Critz III CIS ID 71611365 of Peoria Illinois
EnviroLeague exists for the education of youth both male and female in
matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our
environment
Incorporated as an Illinois notforprofit corporation its Articles and
initial applications for a service mark have now been filed According to
Critz its draft Bylaws contain the following statement of Mission and
Objectives
MISSION
It is the Mission of EnviroLeague and its adult members
to foster and implement the improved education of young
people in the need to conduct their lives as Stewards
of The Earth to leave The Earth in a better condition
than they found it and to otherwise act as responsible
moral and ethical users of their environment To pursue
the accomplishment of this Mission EnviroLeague shall
seek to serve as a catalyst focusing in common cause the
separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation
improvement and responsible use of the environment in
which we must all live
OBJECTIVES
In pursuit of the Mission of EnviroLeague its primary
objectives shall be
1 To establish a Movement involving as many
environmentally concerned organizations as
possible said Movement having as its primary
focus the education and participatory
involvement of young people in appropriate areas
of environmental concern
2 To develop and provide to such organizations and
their branches a full complement of program
materials for their use including suitable
uniforms insignia and other badges written
ideas syllabi and information literature and
other items as shall seem appropriate and
desirable
3 To serve as a clearing house for the exchange
of program ideas materials and information
among said organizations and
4 To assist environmentally concerned
organizations to recruit and train the necessary
adult leadership for their youth programs
EnviroLeague will operate through three Program Divisions serving youth in
the elementary middle and high school grades respectively Service shall be
through formation of EnviroLeague Teams either by EnviroLeague itself or by
environmentally conscious organizations or their local branches wishing a
charter to use programs developed by EnviroLeague
EnviroLeague as it develops will be controlled by the actual adult leaders
of each local Team and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to
membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper
conduct Organizations accepting a charter may however impose certain
additional standards for their own use of the program material Should such
organizations do so EnviroLeague will commit itself to forming as soon as
possible new nearby Teams having no such restrictions particularly as to
youth membership
EnviroLeague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to
contribute to developing its programs Thus the top youth leaders of its
Teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any
local administrative groups and those for its high school youth may be
involved in similar functions at the national level
Program materials are in development at this time Copies of the draft
portions of the Mentors Manual manual for adult leadership will be in the
EARTH Forum Library 17 These files will be updated as development takes
place
CompuServe is particularly proud that EnviroLeagues founder chose this
electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation
This announcement is being made simultaneously in both the OUTDOOR and EARTH
Forums
The electronic home of EnviroLeague is in CompuServes Earth Forum GO
EARTH message and library areas 17 both named EnviroLeague
Subsequently EnviroLeagues Initial Governance Council has held its first
meeting Boyd Critz was elected as the first EnviroLeague Chief Guardian
equivalent to Chairman of the Board or CEO He can be reached at home
309 6754483 in case of real need Also mail can be addressed to
EnviroLeague
PO Box 418
Peoria IL 616510418
Those interested in starting an EnviroLeague Team might just establish
contact to receive a diskette IBM DOS ASCII with initial information
cdtrocketswstratuscom If you believe that I speak for my company
OR cdtvosstratuscom write today for my special Investors Packet
preprocess doc From: shag@aero.org (Rob Unverzagt)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Article-I.D.: news.1pscc6INNebg
Organization: Organization? You must be kidding.
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: aerospace.aero.org
In article <1pr5u2$t0b@agate.berkeley.edu> ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48) writes:
> I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
> first and second grade (69-70, 70-71). They came in Chocolate,
> strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
> and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed
> like space foil at the time).
Wasn't there a "plain" flavor too? They looked more like some
kind of extruded industrial product than food -- perfectly
smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends. Kinda scary.
> The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly. It was
> most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar." Sort of
> a toffee injected with vitamins. The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
> approximation of the taste. Strawberry sucked.
An other post described it as like a "microwaved Tootsie Roll" --
which captures the texture pretty well. As for taste, they were
like candy, only not very sweet -- does that make sense? I recall
liking them for their texture, not taste. I guess I have well
developed texture buds.
> Man, these were my "60's."
It was obligatory to eat a few while watching "Captain Scarlet".
Does anybody else remember _that_, as long as we're off the
topic of space?
Shag
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Unverzagt |
shag@aerospace.aero.org | Tuesday is soylent green day.
unverzagt@courier2.aero.org |
after prepro From shagaeroorg Rob Unverzagt
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
ArticleID news1pscc6INNebg
Organization Organization You must be kidding
Lines 35
NNTPPostingHost aerospaceaeroorg
In article 1pr5u2t0bagateberkeleyedu ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48 writes
I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade 6970 7071 They came in Chocolate
strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed
like space foil at the time
Wasnt there a plain flavor too They looked more like some
kind of extruded industrial product than food perfectly
smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends Kinda scary
The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly It was
most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste Strawberry sucked
An other post described it as like a microwaved Tootsie Roll
which captures the texture pretty well As for taste they were
like candy only not very sweet does that make sense I recall
liking them for their texture not taste I guess I have well
developed texture buds
Man these were my 60s
It was obligatory to eat a few while watching Captain Scarlet
Does anybody else remember _that_ as long as were off the
topic of space
Shag
Rob Unverzagt
shagaerospaceaeroorg Tuesday is soylent green day
unverzagtcourier2aeroorg
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says "Here is an "objective
>moral system". And then I start to ask him about the definitions
>that this "objective" system depends on, and, predictably, the whole
>thing falls apart.
It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it. This doesn't mean that
an objective system can't exist. It just means that one cannot be
implemented.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Now along comes Mr Keith Schneider and says Here is an objective
moral system And then I start to ask him about the definitions
that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole
thing falls apart
It only falls apart if you attempt to apply it This doesnt mean that
an objective system cant exist It just means that one cannot be
implemented
keith
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 68
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993
Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab
By Karre Marino
Some 15 years after his first visit to JPL, Prof. Stephen
Hawking, Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge
University and author of "A Brief History of Time," returned to
the Lab April 5.
On a tour hosted by JPL Chief Scientist Dr. Moustafa Chahine
and Merle McKenzie, manager of the International Affairs Office,
Hawking visited a variety of facilities, met with Lab Director
Dr. Edward Stone and various project scientists and managers, and
felt "like royalty," he said. Hawking, whose theories attempt to
explain the origin of distant galaxies, black holes and alternate
dimensions, wanted to re-visit JPL, he explained, "because while
I'm most interested in those things in space that are farther
away, I know that here is where the first steps are taken."
Hawking, who was accompanied by his family, two graduate
students and his aides, began the tour in von Karman Auditorium,
as David Evans, deputy assistant Lab director in the Office of
Flight Projects, and Dr. Arden Albee, Mars Observer's project
scientist, briefed him on current and past flight projects.
Voyager was pointed out to him, with special attention paid
to a gold plate with a series of engraved images. Should
extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft, Evans noted,
they would find a variety of images that would explain something
of Earth. The professor asked if we were still communicating with
the spacecraft, and Evans affirmed that we are.
Using a model of Mars Observer, Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecraft's features. In answer
to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
a concept." Chahine, who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
years before, described the professor as "a living miracle of the
power of the brain. He's miraculous, and he has such a good sense
of humor."
The next stop, a demonstration on scientific data
visualization in Section 384's Digital Image Animation Lab,
entertained and delighted the group, as everyone donned goggles
to view 3-D images of Mars. Project Scientist Dr. Eric De Jong
showed off the latest data -- a comet that had only recently been
discovered in orbit close to Jupiter. Hawking was curious about
its composition, and as he was shown how images are developed, he
asked several questions on their interpretation.
Norman Haynes, ALD, Office of Telecommunications and Data
Acquisition, briefed the professor on the Space Flight Operations
Facility, and then Hawking spoke with Stone.
The day ended with two technical discussions of particular
interest to the professor. Technical Group Leader Dr. Frank
Estabrook and Senior Research Scientist Hugo Wahlquist described
a three-spacecraft gravity wave experiment, currently under way.
Then planetary astronomer Dr. Richard Terrile explained the
philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection.
The Hawking party, which had been visiting Southern
California for five weeks, was headquartered at Caltech, and
planned to leave for England within a few weeks after the Lab
tour. Upon departing, the Cambridge-based scientist promised
Chahine that he would return to JPL for another visit.
###
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 68
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993
Cosmologist Stephen Hawking tours Lab
By Karre Marino
Some 15 years after his first visit to JPL Prof Stephen
Hawking Lucasian professor of mathematics at Cambridge
University and author of A Brief History of Time returned to
the Lab April 5
On a tour hosted by JPL Chief Scientist Dr Moustafa Chahine
and Merle McKenzie manager of the International Affairs Office
Hawking visited a variety of facilities met with Lab Director
Dr Edward Stone and various project scientists and managers and
felt like royalty he said Hawking whose theories attempt to
explain the origin of distant galaxies black holes and alternate
dimensions wanted to revisit JPL he explained because while
Im most interested in those things in space that are farther
away I know that here is where the first steps are taken
Hawking who was accompanied by his family two graduate
students and his aides began the tour in von Karman Auditorium
as David Evans deputy assistant Lab director in the Office of
Flight Projects and Dr Arden Albee Mars Observers project
scientist briefed him on current and past flight projects
Voyager was pointed out to him with special attention paid
to a gold plate with a series of engraved images Should
extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft Evans noted
they would find a variety of images that would explain something
of Earth The professor asked if we were still communicating with
the spacecraft and Evans affirmed that we are
Using a model of Mars Observer Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecrafts features In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept Chahine who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
years before described the professor as a living miracle of the
power of the brain Hes miraculous and he has such a good sense
of humor
The next stop a demonstration on scientific data
visualization in Section 384s Digital Image Animation Lab
entertained and delighted the group as everyone donned goggles
to view 3D images of Mars Project Scientist Dr Eric De Jong
showed off the latest data a comet that had only recently been
discovered in orbit close to Jupiter Hawking was curious about
its composition and as he was shown how images are developed he
asked several questions on their interpretation
Norman Haynes ALD Office of Telecommunications and Data
Acquisition briefed the professor on the Space Flight Operations
Facility and then Hawking spoke with Stone
The day ended with two technical discussions of particular
interest to the professor Technical Group Leader Dr Frank
Estabrook and Senior Research Scientist Hugo Wahlquist described
a threespacecraft gravity wave experiment currently under way
Then planetary astronomer Dr Richard Terrile explained the
philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection
The Hawking party which had been visiting Southern
California for five weeks was headquartered at Caltech and
planned to leave for England within a few weeks after the Lab
tour Upon departing the Cambridgebased scientist promised
Chahine that he would return to JPL for another visit
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: S901924@mailserv.cuhk.hk
Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
Summary: Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
Nntp-Posting-Host: wksb14.csc.cuhk.hk
Organization: Computer Services Centre, C.U.H.K.
Distribution: World
Lines: 36
In article <C4M8E5.AuD@csn.org> et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor) writes:
>From: et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor)
>Subject: Re: Gravity waves, was: Predicting gravity wave quantization & Cosmic Noise
>Summary: Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of relativity?
>Keywords: space, curvature, nothing, tesla
>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 20:18:04 GMT
>In article <C4KvJF.4qo@well.sf.ca.us> metares@well.sf.ca.us (Tom Van Flandern) writes:
>>crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>> Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott) writes:
>>>> "Existence" is undefined unless it is synonymous with "observable" in
>>>> physics.
>>> [crb] Dong .... Dong .... Dong .... Do I hear the death-knell of
>>> string theory?
>>
>> I agree. You can add "dark matter" and quarks and a lot of other
>>unobservable, purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list,
>>including the omni-present "black holes."
>>
>> Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
>>alone? Then what about my original criticism, when I said "Curvature
>>can only exist relative to something non-curved"? Bruce replied:
>>"'Existence' is undefined unless it is synonymous with 'observable' in
>>physics. We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about."
>>At the moment I don't see a way to defend that statement and the
>>existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously. -|Tom|-
>
>"I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have
>no properties."
>"Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
>space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved,
>is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I,
>for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view." - Nikola Tesla
>
>----
> ET "Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time. Perhaps now his time comes."
>----
after prepro From S901924mailservcuhkhk
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong Dong Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
NntpPostingHost wksb14csccuhkhk
Organization Computer Services Centre CUHK
Distribution World
Lines 36
In article ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor writes
From ettealcsnorg Eric H Taylor
Subject Re Gravity waves was Predicting gravity wave quantization Cosmic Noise
Summary Dong Dong Do I hear the deathknell of relativity
Keywords space curvature nothing tesla
Date Sun 28 Mar 1993 201804 GMT
In article metareswellsfcaus Tom Van Flandern writes
crb7qkelvinseasVirginiaEDU Cameron Randale Bass writes
BruceScottlaunchpaduncedu Bruce Scott writes
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics
[crb] Dong Dong Dong Do I hear the deathknell of
string theory
I agree You can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other
unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list
including the omnipresent black holes
Will Bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory
alone Then what about my original criticism when I said Curvature
can only exist relative to something noncurved Bruce replied
Existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in
physics We cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about
At the moment I dont see a way to defend that statement and the
existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously Tom
I hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have
no properties
Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the
space To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved
is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing I
for one refuse to subscribe to such a view Nikola Tesla
ET Tesla was 100 years ahead of his time Perhaps now his time comes
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <6APR199314571378@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
|Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
|been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973. Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
|may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
|make some closeup observations. The orbital trajectory for Comet
|Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
a
What about positional uncertainties in S-L 1993e? I assume we know where
and what Galileo is doing within a few meters. But without the
HGA, don't we have to have some pretty good ideas, of where to look
before imaging? If the HGA was working, they could slew around
in near real time (Less speed of light delay). But when they were
imaging toutatis???? didn't someone have to get lucky on a guess to
find the first images?
Also, I imagine S-L 1993e will be mostly a visual image. so how will
that affect the other imaging missions. with the LGA, there is a real
tight allocation of bandwidth. It may be premature to hope for answers,
but I thought i'd throw it on the floor.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 6APR199314571378kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
a
What about positional uncertainties in SL 1993e I assume we know where
and what Galileo is doing within a few meters But without the
HGA dont we have to have some pretty good ideas of where to look
before imaging If the HGA was working they could slew around
in near real time Less speed of light delay But when they were
imaging toutatis didnt someone have to get lucky on a guess to
find the first images
Also I imagine SL 1993e will be mostly a visual image so how will
that affect the other imaging missions with the LGA there is a real
tight allocation of bandwidth It may be premature to hope for answers
but I thought id throw it on the floor
pat
preprocess doc From: clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: University of Central Florida
Lines: 19
I posted this over in sci.astro, but it didn't make it here.
Thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary :-)
What? You guys have never seen the Goodyear blimp polluting
the daytime and nightime skies?
Actually an oribital sign would only be visible near
sunset and sunrise, I believe. So pollution at night
would be minimal.
If it pays for space travel, go for it. Those who don't
like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine
environment of Jupiter's moons :-)
---
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training, University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway, Suite 300, Orlando, FL 32826
(407)658-5030, FAX: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu
after prepro From clarkeacmeucfedu Thomas Clarke
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization University of Central Florida
Lines 19
I posted this over in sciastro but it didnt make it here
Thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary
What You guys have never seen the Goodyear blimp polluting
the daytime and nightime skies
Actually an oribital sign would only be visible near
sunset and sunrise I believe So pollution at night
would be minimal
If it pays for space travel go for it Those who dont
like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine
environment of Jupiters moons
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway Suite 300 Orlando FL 32826
4076585030 FAX 4076585059 clarkeacmeucfedu
preprocess doc Organization: ESOC European Space Operations Centre
From: <TNEDDERH@ESOC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Apollo Training in Iceland
Distribution: sci
Lines: 10
The Apollo astronauts also trained at (in) Meteor Crater in the Flagstaff
area (Arizona). There is now a museum with a space shop.
Caution: they ease you by 6$. Compared to a KSC visit it's not worth.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Thorsten Nedderhut | Disclaimer:
mbp Software & Systems GmbH |
c/o ESA/ESOC/FCSD/OAD/STB | Neither ESA nor mbp is responsible
Darmstadt, Germany | for my postings!
tnedderh@esoc.bitnet |
after prepro Organization ESOC European Space Operations Centre
From
Subject Re Apollo Training in Iceland
Distribution sci
Lines 10
The Apollo astronauts also trained at in Meteor Crater in the Flagstaff
area Arizona There is now a museum with a space shop
Caution they ease you by 6 Compared to a KSC visit its not worth
Thorsten Nedderhut Disclaimer
mbp Software Systems GmbH
co ESAESOCFCSDOADSTB Neither ESA nor mbp is responsible
Darmstadt Germany for my postings
tnedderhesocbitnet
preprocess doc From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 32
In <1993Apr15.234154.23145@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
>As for the future, there is at least $5M in next years budget for work
>on SSRT. They (SDIO) have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
>some. However, SDIO is not (I repeat, is not) going to fund an orbital
>prototype. The best we can hope from them is to 1) keep it alive for
>another year, and 2) fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT (with
>major modifications) just make orbit. There is also some money for a
>set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions.
Would the sub-orbital version be suitable as-is (or "as-will-be") for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket?
>Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort. The USAF managers of
>this program are very open to SSTO and will have about $50M next
>year for studies. This would be enough to bring DC-Y to PDR.
Thank Ghod! I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS.
(And just as a reminder:)
>Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
>for spending half on DC.
>Public support is STILL critical. Meet with your Congressperson (I'll
>help you do it) and get his/her support. Also call your local media
>and get them to cover the flight tests.
after prepro From schumachconvexcom Richard A Schumacher
Subject Re DCX update
NntpPostingHost starmanconvexcom
Organization CONVEX Computer Corporation Richardson Tx USA
XDisclaimer This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
Corp The opinions expressed are those of the user and
not necessarily those of CONVEX
Lines 32
In 1993Apr1523415423145itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
As for the future there is at least 5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT They SDIO have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some However SDIO is not I repeat is not going to fund an orbital
prototype The best we can hope from them is to 1 keep it alive for
another year and 2 fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT with
major modifications just make orbit There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions
Would the suborbital version be suitable asis or aswillbe for use
as a reuseable sounding rocket
Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about 50M next
year for studies This would be enough to bring DCY to PDR
Thank Ghod I had thought that Spacelifter would definitely be the
bastard Son of NLS
And just as a reminder
Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC
Public support is STILL critical Meet with your Congressperson Ill
help you do it and get hisher support Also call your local media
and get them to cover the flight tests
preprocess doc From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Islam is caused by believing (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 40
In article <1993Apr13.173100.29861@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>>I'm only saying that anything can happen under atheism. Being a
>>beleiver, a knowledgeable one in religion, only good can happen.
This is becoming a tiresome statement. Coming from you it is
a definition, not an assertion:
Islam is good. Belief in Islam is good. Therefore, being a
believer in Islam can produce only good...because Islam is
good. Blah blah blah.
That's about as circular as it gets, and equally meaningless. To
say that something produces only good because it is only good that
it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition. And
all you're application is saying that it's true if you really
believe it's true. That's silly.
Conversely, you say off-handedly that _anything_ can happen under
atheism. Again, just an offshoot of believe-it-and-it-becomes-true-
don't-believe-it-and-it-doesn't.
Like other religions I'm aquainted with, Islam teaches exclusion and
caste, and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no
logical call for punishment (certain limits on speech and sex, for
example). To me this is not good. I see much pain and suffering
without any justification, except for the _waving of the hand_ of
some inaccessible god.
By the by, you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly.
For what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of
terms. I infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith.
And If you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing
to do with it, does it?
-jim halat
after prepro From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Islam is caused by believing was Re Genocide is Caused by Theism
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 40
In article 1993Apr1317310029861ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
Im only saying that anything can happen under atheism Being a
beleiver a knowledgeable one in religion only good can happen
This is becoming a tiresome statement Coming from you it is
a definition not an assertion
Islam is good Belief in Islam is good Therefore being a
believer in Islam can produce only goodbecause Islam is
good Blah blah blah
Thats about as circular as it gets and equally meaningless To
say that something produces only good because it is only good that
it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition And
all youre application is saying that its true if you really
believe its true Thats silly
Conversely you say offhandedly that _anything_ can happen under
atheism Again just an offshoot of believeitanditbecomestrue
dontbelieveitanditdoesnt
Like other religions Im aquainted with Islam teaches exclusion and
caste and suggests harsh penalties for _behaviors_ that have no
logical call for punishment certain limits on speech and sex for
example To me this is not good I see much pain and suffering
without any justification except for the _waving of the hand_ of
some inaccessible god
By the by you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly
For what is a _knowledgeable believer_ except a contradiction of
terms I infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith
And If you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing
to do with it does it
jim halat
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Article-I.D.: mksol.1993Apr22.213815.12288
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 22
In <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, I'd swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly. I also find the
choice of newsgroups 'interesting'. Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'?
It's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country. Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do.
[In case you haven't gotten it yet, David, I don't think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.]
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
ArticleID mksol1993Apr2221381512288
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 22
In 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY
If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words Id swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly I also find the
choice of newsgroups interesting Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that sciastro doesnt stand for astrology
Its truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks were all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do
[In case you havent gotten it yet David I dont think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups]
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 14
In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu+ wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:
+
+I love the idea of an inflatable 1-mile long sign.... It will be a
+really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt (or even better, a
+Westford Needle!) comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec.
+
Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum. Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
disastrous deflation.
--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131
after prepro From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 14
In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes
I love the idea of an inflatable 1mile long sign It will be a
really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a
Westford Needle comes crashing into it at 10 clicks a sec
Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
disastrous deflation
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131
preprocess doc From: Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: atheist?
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 50
I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
> In article <ii1i2B1w165w@mantis.co.uk>
> Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>
> (Deletion)
> >
> >My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
> >belief for me to be comfortable with. Any strong atheists out there
> >care to comment?
>[...]
> Humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent. It is one
> of the artifacts of human thought. The evidence for that is quite
> overwhelming. And the information content of the conceived is vanishing.
>
> In other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and
> it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods.
>
> The concept is useless, and I don't have to introduce new assumptions
> in order to show that.
>
> No leap of faith required for me. Your mileage may vary.
Yes I fully agree with that, but is it "I don't believe gods exist", or
"I believe no gods exist"? As MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean.
Unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak
atheism, at least according to the FAQ:
# Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
# Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is
# often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
# atheism".
#
# It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak
# atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong
# atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not
# fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".
(From mathew's "An Introduction to Atheism" version 1.2 last modified 5-Apr-93)
Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"?
Can it?
--
Tony Lezard IS tony@mantis.co.uk OR tony%mantis.co.uk@uknet.ac.uk OR things
like tony%uk.co.mantis@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay OR (last resort) arl10@phx.cam.ac.uk
PGP 2.2 public key available on request.
after prepro From Tony Lezard
Subject Re atheist
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Lines 50
I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article
Tony Lezard writes
Deletion
My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
belief for me to be comfortable with Any strong atheists out there
care to comment
[]
Humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent It is one
of the artifacts of human thought The evidence for that is quite
overwhelming And the information content of the conceived is vanishing
In other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and
it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods
The concept is useless and I dont have to introduce new assumptions
in order to show that
No leap of faith required for me Your mileage may vary
Yes I fully agree with that but is it I dont believe gods exist or
I believe no gods exist As MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean
Unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak
atheism at least according to the FAQ
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God
Some atheists go further and believe that God does not exist The former is
often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong
atheism
It is important to note the difference between these two positions Weak
atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of God Strong
atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists
From mathews An Introduction to Atheism version 12 last modified 5Apr93
Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief
Can it
Tony Lezard IS tonymantiscouk OR tonymantiscoukuknetacuk OR things
like tonyukcomantisukacnsfnetrelay OR last resort arl10phxcamacuk
PGP 22 public key available on request
preprocess doc From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
<C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Lines: 9
In <C5y4t7.9w3@news.cso.uiuc.edu> George F. Krumins writes:
>It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
>wants of the majority, no matter how ridiculous those wants might be.
Umm, perhaps you could explain what 'rights' we are talking about
here ..
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Nicholls ... : Vidi
nicho@vnet.ibm.com or : Vici
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk : Veni
after prepro From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
Lines 9
In George F Krumins writes
It is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the
wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be
Umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about
here
Greg Nicholls Vidi
nichovnetibmcom or Vici
nichoolympusdemoncouk Veni
preprocess doc From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: carina.unm.edu
In article <1993Apr5.011255.7295@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Now can we please use rec.scouting for the purpose for which it was
>established? Clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to
>provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their
>anti-societal political views.
Ok, this is the only thing I will comment on from Stan at this time...
part of this forum we call rec.scouting is for policy discussions and
related topics. This is a policy discussion, and involves related
topics. this is not a "fringe" group discussion. obviously, it
engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand.
Wether a particular view is anti-societal or not is your opinion,
and yours alone, don't try to make it seem otherwise.
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion, use a kill file.
If you wish to continue in this discussion, please do so, knowing
full well the implications that apply.
I know for myself that I plan on continuing with the discussion when
i have the wish to have input. I for one am tired of people trying to
say that this is not a matter significant for this group! It is, and
quite so. Especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely.
****************************************************************
* Dominick V. Zurlo * "If the world's an *
* WWW * oyster, why am I *
* Eagle Scout '87 * allergic to Mollusks?" *
* blacklisted '88 * *
****************************************************************
after prepro From anthropocarinaunmedu Dominick V Zurlo
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Organization University of New Mexico Albuquerque
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost carinaunmedu
In article 1993Apr50112557295cbnewslcbattcom stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger writes
Now can we please use recscouting for the purpose for which it was
established Clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to
provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their
antisocietal political views
Ok this is the only thing I will comment on from Stan at this time
part of this forum we call recscouting is for policy discussions and
related topics This is a policy discussion and involves related
topics this is not a fringe group discussion obviously it
engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand
Wether a particular view is antisocietal or not is your opinion
and yours alone dont try to make it seem otherwise
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion use a kill file
If you wish to continue in this discussion please do so knowing
full well the implications that apply
I know for myself that I plan on continuing with the discussion when
i have the wish to have input I for one am tired of people trying to
say that this is not a matter significant for this group It is and
quite so Especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely
Dominick V Zurlo If the worlds an
WWW oyster why am I
Eagle Scout 87 allergic to Mollusks
blacklisted 88
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr10.125109.25265@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
>>Could you please explain in what way the Qur'an in your eyes carries
>>"the excess baggage of another era"? The Qur'an in my opinion carries
>>no such baggage.
>How about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on
>loans. From what I hear, even fundamentalist Iran is having to
>compromise this ideal.
Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly?
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 16
In article 1993Apr1012510925265bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote
Could you please explain in what way the Quran in your eyes carries
the excess baggage of another era The Quran in my opinion carries
no such baggage
How about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on
loans From what I hear even fundamentalist Iran is having to
compromise this ideal
Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly
Gregg
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr19.130503.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <6ZV82B2w165w@theporch.raider.net>, gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright) writes:
> With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
> by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
> that might just work.
>
> Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
> who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
> Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
> to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
>
> --
> gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
> theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
====
If that were true, I'd go for it.. I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it.. Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the "Solar Car Race"
in Australia..
Anybody game for a contest!
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ArticleID aurora1993Apr191305031
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 21
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 6ZV82B2w165wtheporchraidernet genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright writes
With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
If that were true Id go for it I have a few friends who we could pool our
resources and do it Maybe make it a prize kind of liek the Solar Car Race
in Australia
Anybody game for a contest
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: TRUE "GLOBE", Who makes it?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 12
In article <bill.047m@xpresso.UUCP> bill@xpresso.UUCP (Bill Vance) writes:
>It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
>shaped than globular/spherical. Does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate
>as to actual shape, landmass configuration/Long/Lat lines etc.?
I don't think you're going to be able to see the differences from a sphere
unless they are greatly exaggerated. Even the equatorial bulge is only
about 1 part in 300 -- you'd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe --
and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller.
--
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re TRUE GLOBE Who makes it
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 12
In article billxpressoUUCP Bill Vance writes
It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globularspherical Does anyone make a globe that is accurate
as to actual shape landmass configurationLongLat lines etc
I dont think youre going to be able to see the differences from a sphere
unless they are greatly exaggerated Even the equatorial bulge is only
about 1 part in 300 youd never notice a 1mm error in a 30cm globe
and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS Dick Dunn henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Ozone GIFs Available
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 90
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Ozone, UARS, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
==========================
OZONE GIF IMAGES
April 15, 1993
==========================
Two GIF images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern
hemispheres are now available at the JPL Info public access site. These maps
were produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite (UARS), and are courtesy of the Public Information Office
at JPL. Note that the images are in GIF89a format, so make sure your display
software supports this format (as opposed to the older GIF87a format). The
caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message,
as well as being embedded in the images. The images are available by dialup
modem at +1 (818) 354-1333, up to 9600 bps, parameters N-8-1, or by using
anonymous ftp to:
ftp: pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2)
user: anonymous
cd: news (will be moved to the images directory in 30 days)
files: ozone93a.gif - Northern hemisphere
ozone93b.gif - Southern hemisphere
Also, photographic prints of these images can be ordered from Newell Color
Lab listed below. Refer to the P number associated with the images when
ordering.
Newell Color Lab
221 N. Westmoreland Avenue
Los Angeles CA 90064
Telephone: (213) 380-2980
FAX: (213) 739-6984
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ozone93a.gif
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
PHOTO P-42210
April 14, 1993
This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over Earth's
northern hemisphere in February 1992 and 1993. These maps were
produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper
Atmosphere Research Satellite. The chlorine monoxide (ClO) maps
(left) are for a layer about 20 kilometers (66,000 feet) above
the Earth's surface on February 17, 1992 (above) and 1993
(below). The ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude
of about 12 kilometers (41,000 feet) averaged over the period
from February 15 to March 6 for the two years. The Microwave
Limb Sounder, developed and operated by a team at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is one of several instruments on the
Goddard Space Flight Center's Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite, launched in September 1991.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ozone93b.gif
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
PHOTO CAPTION P-42211
April 14, 1993
This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide (ClO) and the Antarctic
ozone hole. These maps, produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder
aboard the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite, show the amount
of chlorine monoxide (left) and ozone (right) in the stratosphere
at altitudes above 20 kilometers (66,000 feet). Very small
abundances of ozone appear where there are large abundances of
chlorine monoxide, the dominant form of chlorine that destroys
ozone. Data from September 21, 1991 (top) are compared with
those from September 20, 1992 (bottom). The Microwave Limb
Sounder, developed and operated by a team at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, is one of several instruments on Goddard
Space Flight Center's Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
launched September 12, 1991.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Ozone GIFs Available
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 90
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Ozone UARS JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
OZONE GIF IMAGES
April 15 1993
Two GIF images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern
hemispheres are now available at the JPL Info public access site These maps
were produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite UARS and are courtesy of the Public Information Office
at JPL Note that the images are in GIF89a format so make sure your display
software supports this format as opposed to the older GIF87a format The
caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message
as well as being embedded in the images The images are available by dialup
modem at 1 818 3541333 up to 9600 bps parameters N81 or by using
anonymous ftp to
ftp pubinfojplnasagov 12814962
user anonymous
cd news will be moved to the images directory in 30 days
files ozone93agif Northern hemisphere
ozone93bgif Southern hemisphere
Also photographic prints of these images can be ordered from Newell Color
Lab listed below Refer to the P number associated with the images when
ordering
Newell Color Lab
221 N Westmoreland Avenue
Los Angeles CA 90064
Telephone 213 3802980
FAX 213 7396984
ozone93agif
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109 TELEPHONE 818 3545011
PHOTO P42210
April 14 1993
This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over Earths
northern hemisphere in February 1992 and 1993 These maps were
produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder aboard the Upper
Atmosphere Research Satellite The chlorine monoxide ClO maps
left are for a layer about 20 kilometers 66000 feet above
the Earths surface on February 17 1992 above and 1993
below The ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude
of about 12 kilometers 41000 feet averaged over the period
from February 15 to March 6 for the two years The Microwave
Limb Sounder developed and operated by a team at NASAs Jet
Propulsion Laboratory is one of several instruments on the
Goddard Space Flight Centers Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite launched in September 1991
ozone93bgif
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA CALIF 91109 TELEPHONE 818 3545011
PHOTO CAPTION P42211
April 14 1993
This graphic depicts chlorine monoxide ClO and the Antarctic
ozone hole These maps produced by the Microwave Limb Sounder
aboard the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite show the amount
of chlorine monoxide left and ozone right in the stratosphere
at altitudes above 20 kilometers 66000 feet Very small
abundances of ozone appear where there are large abundances of
chlorine monoxide the dominant form of chlorine that destroys
ozone Data from September 21 1991 top are compared with
those from September 20 1992 bottom The Microwave Limb
Sounder developed and operated by a team at NASAs Jet
Propulsion Laboratory is one of several instruments on Goddard
Space Flight Centers Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
launched September 12 1991
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Clipper Launch Article
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 40
To All -- I thought the net would find this amusing..
From the March 1993 "Aero Vision" (The newsletter for the Employees
of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach, California).
SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
"On Monday, March 15 at noon, Quest Aerospace Education, Inc.
launched two DC-Y Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria.
The first rocket was launched by Dr. Bill Gaubatz, director and
SSTO program manager, and the second by Air Force Captain Ed
Spalding, who with Staff Sgt. Don Gisburne represents Air Force
Space Command, which was requested by SDIO to assess the DC-X for
potential military operational use. Both rocket launches were
successful. The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria
and Building 11, and the second landed on the roof of the
cafeteria.
Quest's Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the
McDonnell Douglas DC-X. The 1/122nd semi-scale model of the
McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude
of 300 feet. The Space Clippers can be used in educational
settings to teach mathematics and science, as well as social
studies and other applications. The Space Clipper is available
either in the $35 Space Clipper outfit, which includes everything
needed for three launches, or as individual rockets for $12 each.
Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1-800-858-
7302."
By the way -- this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is
it an advertisement to buy the product. I make no claims about the
product. This is posted for public information only (hey, I found
it amusing...), and is merely a repeat of what was included in the
MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Clipper Launch Article
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 40
To All I thought the net would find this amusing
From the March 1993 Aero Vision The newsletter for the Employees
of McDonnell Douglas Aerospace at Huntington Beach California
SPACE CLIPPERS LAUNCHED SUCCESSFULLY
On Monday March 15 at noon Quest Aerospace Education Inc
launched two DCY Space Clippers in the mall near the cafeteria
The first rocket was launched by Dr Bill Gaubatz director and
SSTO program manager and the second by Air Force Captain Ed
Spalding who with Staff Sgt Don Gisburne represents Air Force
Space Command which was requested by SDIO to assess the DCX for
potential military operational use Both rocket launches were
successful The first floated to the ground between the cafeteria
and Building 11 and the second landed on the roof of the
cafeteria
Quests Space Clipper is the first flying model rocket of the
McDonnell Douglas DCX The 1122nd semiscale model of the
McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper has an estimated maximum altitude
of 300 feet The Space Clippers can be used in educational
settings to teach mathematics and science as well as social
studies and other applications The Space Clipper is available
either in the 35 Space Clipper outfit which includes everything
needed for three launches or as individual rockets for 12 each
Both are available through hobby shops or by calling 1800858
7302
By the way this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is
it an advertisement to buy the product I make no claims about the
product This is posted for public information only hey I found
it amusing and is merely a repeat of what was included in the
MDSSC Huntington Beach Newsletter
Wales Larrison Space Technology Investor
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14
In article <1r6f3a$2ai@news.umbc.edu> rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian) writes:
>>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
>
>Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
>of the daylight. You should be able to convert the information here
>to sunrise and sunset times.
Sorry, not so -- the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not
quite synchronized. For example, neither the earliest sunrise nor the
latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year.
You can derive day length from sunrise and sunset times, but not
vice-versa.
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14
In article 1r6f3a2ainewsumbcedu roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
Here is a computation I did a long time ago that computes the length
of the daylight You should be able to convert the information here
to sunrise and sunset times
Sorry not so the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not
quite synchronized For example neither the earliest sunrise nor the
latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year
You can derive day length from sunrise and sunset times but not
viceversa
preprocess doc From: bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines: 122
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: thnext.mit.edu
In article <1993Apr5.163738.2447@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>
simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
[deleted]
>
> ... over on alt.atheism we tend to recognise two
> categories of atheism. Function format due to mathew@mantis.co.uk, I
think:
>
> (i) weak - not(believe(gods))
>
> (ii) strong - believe(not(gods))
>
[deleted]
>
>
>
> I ... am [a strong atheist], and I must quibble with your assertion
> that the `strong' position requires faith. I believe that no god/s,
> as commonly described by theists, exist. This belief is merely an
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> opinion, formed on the basis of observation, including a certain
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> amount of introspection.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I fully accept that I could be wrong, and will be swayed by suitably
> convincing evidence. Thus while I believe that no gods exist, this does
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> not imply *faith* on my part that it is so.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let me first say that "to believe that no gods exist" is in fact
different than "not believing in a god or gods".
I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement
that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't
know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than saying
I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the position, even
after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires faith.
But first let me say the following.
We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
God".
We also might differ upon what it means to have faith. Here is what
Webster says:
faith
1a: allegiance to duty or a person: LOYALTY
b (1): fidelity to one's promises
(2): sincerity of intentions
2a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(2): complete trust
3: something that is believed esp. with strong conviction; esp: a system
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of religious beliefs
syn see BELIEF
One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief. All observations
can only point you in a direction - a direction that we might even
be predisposed to (by predisposed I mean, for example, people whoes
partents "believe in God" also tend to). To actually draw a conclusion
about the "existence" or "non-existence" of God requires a leap - and
you have made this leap when you actively say "I believe that God
does/does not exist". Personally, I think that both statements are
misguided. Arguing over the "existence" of God is precisely the wrong way
to find Him (and yes, I use "Him" because a personal God is the only
viable concept (IMO) - if a person wants to use "She" go ahead. Of course
God is neither He nor She - but we have no choice but to
anthropomorphise. If you want me to explain myself further I'll be
glad to.)
And please, if someone does not agree with me - even if they violently
disagree - it's in no ones advantage to start name calling. If a person
thinks I've misunderstood something in the FAQs, or if they they think
I have not read them well enough, just point out to me the error of my
ways and I correct the situation. I'm interested in a polite and well
thought out discussion.
> Cheers
>
> Simon
> --
> Simon Clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
> Department of Computer Science Tel (+44) 203 523296
> University of Warwick FAX (+44) 203 525714
> Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.
--
bob singleton
bobs@thnext.mit.edu
after prepro From bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Lines 122
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost thnextmitedu
In article 1993Apr51637382447dcswarwickacuk
simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale writes
[deleted]
over on altatheism we tend to recognise two
categories of atheism Function format due to mathewmantiscouk I
think
i weak notbelievegods
ii strong believenotgods
[deleted]
I am [a strong atheist] and I must quibble with your assertion
that the `strong position requires faith I believe that no gods
as commonly described by theists exist This belief is merely an
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
opinion formed on the basis of observation including a certain
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
amount of introspection
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I fully accept that I could be wrong and will be swayed by suitably
convincing evidence Thus while I believe that no gods exist this does
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
not imply faith on my part that it is so
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let me first say that to believe that no gods exist is in fact
different than not believing in a god or gods
I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
does rest upon faith that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement
that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont
know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than saying
I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the position even
after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires faith
But first let me say the following
We might have a language problem here in regards to faith and
existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
being God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
to debate the so called existence of God and that is not what
Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
statement but we obviously mean two different things by it However
in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
usual sense and this is the sense that I think you are using it
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
God
We also might differ upon what it means to have faith Here is what
Webster says
faith
1a allegiance to duty or a person LOYALTY
b 1 fidelity to ones promises
2 sincerity of intentions
2a 1 belief and trust in and loyalty to God
2 belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b 1 firm belief in something for which there is no proof
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
2 complete trust
3 something that is believed esp with strong conviction esp a system
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of religious beliefs
syn see BELIEF
One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
you refering to There are NO observations pro or con that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief All observations
can only point you in a direction a direction that we might even
be predisposed to by predisposed I mean for example people whoes
partents believe in God also tend to To actually draw a conclusion
about the existence or nonexistence of God requires a leap and
you have made this leap when you actively say I believe that God
doesdoes not exist Personally I think that both statements are
misguided Arguing over the existence of God is precisely the wrong way
to find Him and yes I use Him because a personal God is the only
viable concept IMO if a person wants to use She go ahead Of course
God is neither He nor She but we have no choice but to
anthropomorphise If you want me to explain myself further Ill be
glad to
And please if someone does not agree with me even if they violently
disagree its in no ones advantage to start name calling If a person
thinks Ive misunderstood something in the FAQs or if they they think
I have not read them well enough just point out to me the error of my
ways and I correct the situation Im interested in a polite and well
thought out discussion
Cheers
Simon
Simon Clippingdale simondcswarwickacuk
Department of Computer Science Tel 44 203 523296
University of Warwick FAX 44 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL UK
bob singleton
bobsthnextmitedu
preprocess doc From: yohan@citation.ksu.ksu.edu (Jonathan W Newton)
Subject: Re: Societally acceptable behavior
Organization: Kansas State University
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: citation.ksu.ksu.edu
In article <C5qGM3.DL8@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>Merely a question for the basis of morality
>
>Moral/Ethical behavior = _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_.
I disagree with these. What society thinks should be irrelevant. What the
individual decides is all that is important.
>
>1)Who is society
I think this is fairly obvious
>
>2)How do "they" define what is acceptable?
Generally by what they "feel" is right, which is the most idiotic policy I can
think of.
>
>3)How do we keep from a "whatever is legal is what is "moral" "position?
By thinking for ourselves.
>
>MAC
>--
>****************************************************************
> Michael A. Cobb
> "...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
> class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
> -Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
>
>With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From yohancitationksuksuedu Jonathan W Newton
Subject Re Societally acceptable behavior
Organization Kansas State University
Lines 35
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost citationksuksuedu
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
Merely a question for the basis of morality
MoralEthical behavior _Societally_ _acceptable_ _behavior_
I disagree with these What society thinks should be irrelevant What the
individual decides is all that is important
1Who is society
I think this is fairly obvious
2How do they define what is acceptable
Generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy I can
think of
3How do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position
By thinking for ourselves
MAC
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Russian Email Contacts.
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Does anyone have any Russian Contacts (Space or other) or contacts in the old
USSR/SU or Eastern Europe?
Post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions..
I think the cost of email is high, so we would have to keep the content to
specific topics and such..
Basically if we want to save Russia and such, then we need to make contacts,
contacts are a form of info, so lets get informing.
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
Alive in Nome, Alaska (once called Russian America).
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Russian Email Contacts
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Does anyone have any Russian Contacts Space or other or contacts in the old
USSRSU or Eastern Europe
Post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions
I think the cost of email is high so we would have to keep the content to
specific topics and such
Basically if we want to save Russia and such then we need to make contacts
contacts are a form of info so lets get informing
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Alive in Nome Alaska once called Russian America
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>No, that's just what you thought the theory meant. While all humans
>>are generally capable of overpowering their instincts, it does not
>>follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent.
>Ok, so why aren't animals "generally capable of overpowering their instincts"?
Good question. I'm sure some biologist could answer better than I,
but animals brains are just set up differently.
Animals *can* be trained, but if they're instincts serve them well, there is
no reason to contradict them.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re No thats just what you thought the theory meant While all humans
are generally capable of overpowering their instincts it does not
follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent
Ok so why arent animals generally capable of overpowering their instincts
Good question Im sure some biologist could answer better than I
but animals brains are just set up differently
Animals can be trained but if theyre instincts serve them well there is
no reason to contradict them
keith
preprocess doc From: Chris W. Johnson <chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: New DC-x gif
Organization: University of Texas at Austin Computation Center
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d20
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7F316D13D01BE1F@gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu>
X-XXDate: Thu, 15 Apr 93 19:42:41 GMT
In article <Cohen-150493082611@q5022531.mdc.com> Andy Cohen,
Cohen@ssdgwy.mdc.com writes:
> I just uploaded "DCXart2.GIF" to bongo.cc.utexas.edu...after Chris Johnson
> moves it, it'll probably be in pub/delta-clipper.
Thanks again Andy.
The image is in pub/delta-clipper now. The name has been changed to
"dcx-artists-concept.gif" in the spirit of verboseness. :-)
----Chris
Chris W. Johnson
Internet: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
UUCP: {husc6|uunet}!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!chrisj
CompuServe: >INTERNET:chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu
AppleLink: chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu@internet#
...wishing the Delta Clipper team success in the upcoming DC-X flight tests.
after prepro From Chris W Johnson
Subject Re New DCx gif
Organization University of Texas at Austin Computation Center
Lines 20
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost gargravarrccutexasedu
XUserAgent Nuntius v111d20
XXXMessageID
XXXDate Thu 15 Apr 93 194241 GMT
In article Andy Cohen
Cohenssdgwymdccom writes
I just uploaded DCXart2GIF to bongoccutexaseduafter Chris Johnson
moves it itll probably be in pubdeltaclipper
Thanks again Andy
The image is in pubdeltaclipper now The name has been changed to
dcxartistsconceptgif in the spirit of verboseness
Chris
Chris W Johnson
Internet chrisjemxccutexasedu
UUCP husc6uunetcsutexaseduutemxchrisj
CompuServe INTERNETchrisjemxccutexasedu
AppleLink chrisjemxccutexaseduinternet
wishing the Delta Clipper team success in the upcoming DCX flight tests
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Golden & Space ages
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 17
Pat sez;
>Oddly, enough, The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
>the golden age of flight. I would call it the granite years,
>reflecting the primitive nature of it. It was romantic,
>swashbuckling daredevils, "those daring young men in their flying
>machines". But in reality, it sucked. Death was a highly likely
>occurence, and the environment blew.
Yeah, but a windscreen cut down most of it. Canopies ended it completely.
Of course, the environment in space continues to suck :-)
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Golden Space ages
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 17
Pat sez
Oddly enough The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight I would call it the granite years
reflecting the primitive nature of it It was romantic
swashbuckling daredevils those daring young men in their flying
machines But in reality it sucked Death was a highly likely
occurence and the environment blew
Yeah but a windscreen cut down most of it Canopies ended it completely
Of course the environment in space continues to suck
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
> Keesler, Loftus, Potter, Stansbery, Kubriek....?
I gues it is Keesler. The others do not ring the bell but they might be
involved as well. Sometime ago Keesler was here at Langley teaching
a course on space debris and, if my memory does not fai,l I think there
was even a reference to a book on the subject.
C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 10
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
Keesler Loftus Potter Stansbery Kubriek
I gues it is Keesler The others do not ring the bell but they might be
involved as well Sometime ago Keesler was here at Langley teaching
a course on space debris and if my memory does not fail I think there
was even a reference to a book on the subject
COEgalonlarcnasagov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
>>or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment, which is forbidden
>>by the US Constitution.
>Yes, but they didn't say what they meant by "cruel", which is why
>a) you have the Supreme Court, and b) it makes no sense to refer
>to the Constitution, which is quite silent on the meaning of the
>word "cruel".
They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution. They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent. We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word. Isn't this sufficient?
>>Oh, but we were discussing the death penalty (and that discussion
>>resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial
>>discussion about objective morality--so this is already three times
>>removed from the morality discussion).
>Actually, we were discussing the mening of the word "cruel" and
>the US Constitution says nothing about that.
But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty. And, the
Constitution need not define each of the words within. Anyone who doesn't
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did).
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re This whole thread started because of a discussion about whether
or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden
by the US Constitution
Yes but they didnt say what they meant by cruel which is why
a you have the Supreme Court and b it makes no sense to refer
to the Constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the
word cruel
They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word Isnt this sufficient
Oh but we were discussing the death penalty and that discussion
resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial
discussion about objective moralityso this is already three times
removed from the morality discussion
Actually we were discussing the mening of the word cruel and
the US Constitution says nothing about that
But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty And the
Constitution need not define each of the words within Anyone who doesnt
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did
keith
preprocess doc From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Quaint US Archaisms
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra
Organization: Texas Instruments
Lines: 41
In article <C512wC.B0M.1@cs.cmu.edu>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr2.170157.24251@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
|>
<stuff deleted>
|> Of course the units of force have the same names as those of weight,
|> but in order to use them you need to keep useful constants like the
|> omnipresent 32.???? ft/sec^2 around.
|>
|> Maybe you'd like to go over again how this system is _so_ natural and
|> _so_ easy to use, Gary? While you're at it, you can figure out for us
|> the weight of 17 barrels and a quart of foo (density 17lb 2 3/4 oz per
|> cubic foot) on the moon (gravity 5 ft 7 3/32 in/sec^2). Let's face it,
|> even the imperial system uses a basically metric way of relating
|> quantities (i.e. that would be written as 5.59 ft/sec^2); the only
|> thing you're hanging on to is the right to express the same quantity
|> as 1731 inches, 144.25 feet, 48.0833 yards or 2.186 chains. What
|> everyone else is saying is _why_ do you want to do that?
|>
|> Any apparent remaining complexity in the SI system is due to the
|> multiplicity of the aforesaid prefixes. In fact what's going on (and
|> the fundamental difference between SI and imperial) is that you have
|> exactly one unit of each type, and all values of that type are
|> expressed as some multiple of the unit.
You mean like: seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years. . . :-)
Remember, the Fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale. Some
revisionists tell the history something like this: The coldest point in a
particular Russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body
temperature of a volunteer (turns out he was sick, but you can't win 'em all).
Then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into
hundredths.
:-)
FWIW,
Doug Page
*** The opinions are mine (maybe), and do not necessarily represent those ***
*** of my employer (or any other sane person, fot that matter). ***
after prepro From dpageracscticom Doug Page
Subject Re Quaint US Archaisms
NntpPostingHost ra
Organization Texas Instruments
Lines 41
In article nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
In article 1993Apr217015724251ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes
Of course the units of force have the same names as those of weight
but in order to use them you need to keep useful constants like the
omnipresent 32 ftsec^2 around
Maybe youd like to go over again how this system is _so_ natural and
_so_ easy to use Gary While youre at it you can figure out for us
the weight of 17 barrels and a quart of foo density 17lb 2 34 oz per
cubic foot on the moon gravity 5 ft 7 332 insec^2 Lets face it
even the imperial system uses a basically metric way of relating
quantities ie that would be written as 559 ftsec^2 the only
thing youre hanging on to is the right to express the same quantity
as 1731 inches 14425 feet 480833 yards or 2186 chains What
everyone else is saying is _why_ do you want to do that
Any apparent remaining complexity in the SI system is due to the
multiplicity of the aforesaid prefixes In fact whats going on and
the fundamental difference between SI and imperial is that you have
exactly one unit of each type and all values of that type are
expressed as some multiple of the unit
You mean like seconds minutes hours days months years
Remember the Fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale Some
revisionists tell the history something like this The coldest point in a
particular Russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body
temperature of a volunteer turns out he was sick but you cant win em all
Then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into
hundredths
FWIW
Doug Page
The opinions are mine maybe and do not necessarily represent those
of my employer or any other sane person fot that matter
preprocess doc From: ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu (George Hastings)
Subject: Re: Space on other nets
Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network (Richmond)
Lines: 17
We run "SpaceNews & Views" on our STAREACH BBS, a local
operation running WWIV software with the capability to link to
over 1500 other BBS's in the U.S.A. and Canada through WWIVNet.
Having just started this a couple of months ago, our sub us
currently subscribed by only about ten other boards, but more
are being added.
We get our news articles re on Internet, via ftp from NASA
sites, and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals. We
get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students
who access the system.
____________________________________________________________
| George Hastings ghasting@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu |
| Space Science Teacher 72407.22@compuserve.com | If it's not
| Mathematics & Science Center STAREACH BBS: 804-343-6533 | FUN, it's
| 2304 Hartman Street OFFICE: 804-343-6525 | probably not
| Richmond, VA 23223 FAX: 804-343-6529 | SCIENCE!
------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu George Hastings
Subject Re Space on other nets
Organization Virginias Public Education Network Richmond
Lines 17
We run SpaceNews Views on our STAREACH BBS a local
operation running WWIV software with the capability to link to
over 1500 other BBSs in the USA and Canada through WWIVNet
Having just started this a couple of months ago our sub us
currently subscribed by only about ten other boards but more
are being added
We get our news articles re on Internet via ftp from NASA
sites and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals We
get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students
who access the system
____________________________________________________________
George Hastings ghastingvdoe386vak12ededu
Space Science Teacher 7240722compuservecom If its not
Mathematics Science Center STAREACH BBS 8043436533 FUN its
2304 Hartman Street OFFICE 8043436525 probably not
Richmond VA 23223 FAX 8043436529 SCIENCE
preprocess doc From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 70
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
Or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the
Messiah, or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of Jews built
into Godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of Roman oppression,
or.......
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
>die for a lie?
Are the Moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into
Jewish embassies dying for the truth (hint: they think they are)? Were the
NAZI soldiers in WWII dying for the truth?
People die for lies all the time.
>Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
Was Hitler a liar? How about Napoleon, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan? We spend
millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying? So the
answer is no, they wouldn't be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied
about some things.
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
>someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
>heal people.
Why do you think he healed people, because the Bible says so? But if God
doesn't exist (the other possibility) then the Bible is not divinely
inspired and one can't use it as a piece of evidence, as it was written by
unbiased observers.
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
Were Hitler or Mussolini lunatics? How about Genghis Khan, Jim Jones...
there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to
lunatics.
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
>this right away.
> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
>real thing.
So we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other
possibilities not given in this triad.
> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
Possibly self-fulfilling prophecy (ie he was aware what he should do in
order to fulfil these prophecies), possibly selective diting on behalf of
those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the
general; public had access. possibly also that the text is written in such
riddles (like Nostradamus) that anything that happens can be twisted to fit
the words of raving fictional 'prophecy'.
>and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
>write I will use it.
[stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted]
I severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian, they
are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer.
Jeff.
after prepro From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 70
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the
Messiah or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of Jews built
into Godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of Roman oppression
or
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie
Are the Moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into
Jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are Were the
NAZI soldiers in WWII dying for the truth
People die for lies all the time
Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
Was Hitler a liar How about Napoleon Mussolini Ronald Reagan We spend
millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying So the
answer is no they wouldnt be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied
about some things
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
Why do you think he healed people because the Bible says so But if God
doesnt exist the other possibility then the Bible is not divinely
inspired and one cant use it as a piece of evidence as it was written by
unbiased observers
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
Were Hitler or Mussolini lunatics How about Genghis Khan Jim Jones
there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to
lunatics
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
So we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other
possibilities not given in this triad
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
Possibly selffulfilling prophecy ie he was aware what he should do in
order to fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting on behalf of
those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the
general public had access possibly also that the text is written in such
riddles like Nostradamus that anything that happens can be twisted to fit
the words of raving fictional prophecy
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
[stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted]
I severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian they
are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer
Jeff
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 08/15 - Addresses
Supersedes: <addresses_730956515@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 230
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:58:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/addresses
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:38:55 $
CONTACTING NASA, ESA, AND OTHER SPACE AGENCIES/COMPANIES
Many space activities center around large Government or International
Bureaucracies. In the US that means NASA. If you have basic information
requests: (e.g., general PR info, research grants, data, limited tours, and
ESPECIALLY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT (typically resumes should be ready by Jan. 1),
etc.), consider contacting the nearest NASA Center to answer your questions.
EMail typically will not get you any where, computers are used by
investigators, not PR people. The typical volume of mail per Center is a
multiple of 10,000 letters a day. Seek the Public Information Office at one
of the below, this is their job:
NASA (The National Aeronautics and Space Administration) is the
civilian space agency of of the United States Federal Government.
It reports directly to the White House and is not a Cabinet
post such as the military Department of Defense. Its 20K+ employees
are civil servants and hence US citizens. Another 100K+ contractors
also work for NASA.
NASA CENTERS
NASA Headquarters (NASA HQ)
Washington DC 20546
(202)-358-1600
Ask them questions about policy, money, and things of political
nature. Direct specific questions to the appropriate center.
NASA Ames Research Center (ARC)
Moffett Field, CA 94035
(415)-694-5091
Some aeronautical research, atmosphere reentry, Mars and Venus
planetary atmospheres. "Lead center" for Helicopter research,
V/STOL, etc. Runs Pioneer series of space probes.
NASA Ames Research Center
Dryden Flight Research Facility [DFRF]
P. O. Box 273
Edwards, CA 93523
(805)-258-8381
Aircraft, mostly. Tested the shuttle orbiter landing
characteristics. Developed X-1, D-558, X-3, X-4, X-5, XB-70, and of
course, the X-15.
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC)
Greenbelt, MD 20771
[Outside of Washington DC]
(301)-344-6255
Earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets. Developed
LANDSAT.
Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)
California Institute of Technology
4800 Oak Grove Dr.
Pasadena, CA 91109
(818)-354-5011
The "heavies" in planetary research probes and other unmanned
projects (they also had a lot to do with IRAS). They run Voyager,
Magellan, Galileo, and will run Cassini, CRAF, etc. etc.. For
images, probe navigation, and other info about unmanned exploration,
this is the place to go.
JPL is run under contract for NASA by the nearby California
Institute of Technology, unlike the NASA centers above. This
distinction is subtle but critical. JPL has different requirements
for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires. For instance in
the latter, an SF 171 is useless. Employees are Caltech employees,
contractors, and for the most part have similar responsibilities.
They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers.
A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
FTP in
ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/JPLDescription
NASA Johnson Manned Space Center (JSC)
Houston, TX 77058
(713)-483-5111
JSC manages Space Shuttle, ground control of manned missions.
Astronaut training. Manned mission simulators.
NASA Kennedy Space Flight Center (KSC)
Titusville, FL 32899
(407)-867-2468
Space launch center. You know this one.
NASA Langley Research Center (LaRC)
Hampton, VA 23665
[Near Newport News, VA]
(804)-865-2935
Original NASA site. Specializes in theoretical and experimental
flight dynamics. Viking. Long Duration Exposure Facility.
NASA Lewis Research Center (LeRC)
21000 Brookpark Rd.
Cleveland, OH 44135
(216)-433-4000
Aircraft/Rocket propulsion. Space power generation. Materials
research.
NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC)
Huntsville, AL 35812
(205)-453-0034
Development, production, delivery of Solid Rocket Boosters, External
Tank, Orbiter main engines. Propulsion and launchers.
Michoud Assembly Facility
Orleans Parish
New Orleans, LA 70129
(504)-255-2601
Shuttle external tanks are produced here; formerly Michoud produced
first stages for the Saturn V.
Stennis Space Center
Bay St. Louis, Mississippi 39529
(601)-688-3341
Space Shuttle main engines are tested here, as were Saturn V first
and second stages. The center also does remote-sensing and
technology-transfer research.
Wallops Flight Center
Wallops Island, VA 23337
(804)824-3411
Aeronautical research, sounding rockets, Scout launcher.
Manager, Technology Utilization Office
NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility
Post Office Box 8757
Baltimore, Maryland 21240
Specific requests for software must go thru COSMIC at the Univ. of
Georgia, NASA's contracted software redistribution service. You can
reach them at cosmic@uga.bitnet.
NOTE: Foreign nationals requesting information must go through their
Embassies in Washington DC. These are facilities of the US Government
and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity. Centers
cannot directly return information without high Center approval. Allow
at least 1 month for clearance. This includes COSMIC.
The US Air Force Space Command can be contacted thru the Pentagon along with
other Department of Defense offices. They have unacknowledged offices in
Los Angeles, Sunnyvale, Colorado Springs, and other locations. They have
a budget which rivals NASA in size.
ARIANESPACE HEADQUARTERS
Boulevard de l'Europe
B.P. 177
91006 Evry Cedex
France
ARIANESPACE, INC.
1747 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 875
Washington, DC 20006
(202)-728-9075
EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY (ESA)
955 L'Enfant Plaza S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20024
(202)-488-4158
NATIONAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (NASDA)
4-1 Hamamatsu-Cho, 2 Chome
Minato-Ku, Tokyo 105, JAPAN
SOYUZKARTA
45 Vologradsij Pr.
Moscow 109125
USSR
SPACE CAMP
Alabama Space and Rocket Center U.S. SPACE CAMP
1 Tranquility Base 6225 Vectorspace Blvd
Huntsville, AL 35805 Titusville FL 32780
(205)-837-3400 (407)267-3184
Registration and mailing list are handled through Huntsville -- both
camps are described in the same brochure.
Programs offered at Space Camp are:
Space Camp - one week, youngsters completing grades 4-6
Space Academy I - one week, grades 7-9
Aviation Challenge - one week high school program, grades 9-11
Space Academy II - 8 days, college accredited, grades 10-12
Adult Program - 3 days (editorial comment: it's great!)
Teachers Program - 5 days
SPACE COMMERCE CORPORATION (U.S. agent for Soviet launch services)
504 Pluto Drive 69th flr, Texas Commerce Tower
Colorado Springs, CO 80906 Houston, TX 77002
(719)-578-5490 (713)-227-9000
SPACEHAB
600 Maryland Avenue, SW
Suite 201 West
Washington, DC 20004
(202)-488-3483
SPOT IMAGE CORPORATION
1857 Preston White Drive,
Reston, VA 22091
(FAX) (703)-648-1813 (703)-620-2200
OTHER COMMERCIAL SPACE BUSINESSES
Vincent Cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety
of companies in space-related businesses. This is mailed out on the
space-investors list he runs (see the "Network Resources" FAQ) and is also
available by anonymous ftp from furmint.nectar.cs.cmu.edu (128.2.209.111) in
/usr/vac/ftp/space-companies.
NEXT: FAQ #9/15 - Schedules for space missions, and how to see them
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0815 Addresses
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 230
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195829 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spaceaddresses
Lastmodified Date 930401 143855
CONTACTING NASA ESA AND OTHER SPACE AGENCIESCOMPANIES
Many space activities center around large Government or International
Bureaucracies In the US that means NASA If you have basic information
requests eg general PR info research grants data limited tours and
ESPECIALLY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT typically resumes should be ready by Jan 1
etc consider contacting the nearest NASA Center to answer your questions
EMail typically will not get you any where computers are used by
investigators not PR people The typical volume of mail per Center is a
multiple of 10000 letters a day Seek the Public Information Office at one
of the below this is their job
NASA The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is the
civilian space agency of of the United States Federal Government
It reports directly to the White House and is not a Cabinet
post such as the military Department of Defense Its 20K employees
are civil servants and hence US citizens Another 100K contractors
also work for NASA
NASA CENTERS
NASA Headquarters NASA HQ
Washington DC 20546
2023581600
Ask them questions about policy money and things of political
nature Direct specific questions to the appropriate center
NASA Ames Research Center ARC
Moffett Field CA 94035
4156945091
Some aeronautical research atmosphere reentry Mars and Venus
planetary atmospheres Lead center for Helicopter research
VSTOL etc Runs Pioneer series of space probes
NASA Ames Research Center
Dryden Flight Research Facility [DFRF]
P O Box 273
Edwards CA 93523
8052588381
Aircraft mostly Tested the shuttle orbiter landing
characteristics Developed X1 D558 X3 X4 X5 XB70 and of
course the X15
NASA Goddard Space Flight Center GSFC
Greenbelt MD 20771
[Outside of Washington DC]
3013446255
Earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets Developed
LANDSAT
Jet Propulsion Laboratory JPL
California Institute of Technology
4800 Oak Grove Dr
Pasadena CA 91109
8183545011
The heavies in planetary research probes and other unmanned
projects they also had a lot to do with IRAS They run Voyager
Magellan Galileo and will run Cassini CRAF etc etc For
images probe navigation and other info about unmanned exploration
this is the place to go
JPL is run under contract for NASA by the nearby California
Institute of Technology unlike the NASA centers above This
distinction is subtle but critical JPL has different requirements
for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires For instance in
the latter an SF 171 is useless Employees are Caltech employees
contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities
They offer an alternative to funding after other NASA Centers
A fact sheet and description of JPL is available by anonymous
FTP in
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQJPLDescription
NASA Johnson Manned Space Center JSC
Houston TX 77058
7134835111
JSC manages Space Shuttle ground control of manned missions
Astronaut training Manned mission simulators
NASA Kennedy Space Flight Center KSC
Titusville FL 32899
4078672468
Space launch center You know this one
NASA Langley Research Center LaRC
Hampton VA 23665
[Near Newport News VA]
8048652935
Original NASA site Specializes in theoretical and experimental
flight dynamics Viking Long Duration Exposure Facility
NASA Lewis Research Center LeRC
21000 Brookpark Rd
Cleveland OH 44135
2164334000
AircraftRocket propulsion Space power generation Materials
research
NASA Marshall Space Flight Center MSFC
Huntsville AL 35812
2054530034
Development production delivery of Solid Rocket Boosters External
Tank Orbiter main engines Propulsion and launchers
Michoud Assembly Facility
Orleans Parish
New Orleans LA 70129
5042552601
Shuttle external tanks are produced here formerly Michoud produced
first stages for the Saturn V
Stennis Space Center
Bay St Louis Mississippi 39529
6016883341
Space Shuttle main engines are tested here as were Saturn V first
and second stages The center also does remotesensing and
technologytransfer research
Wallops Flight Center
Wallops Island VA 23337
8048243411
Aeronautical research sounding rockets Scout launcher
Manager Technology Utilization Office
NASA Scientific and Technical Information Facility
Post Office Box 8757
Baltimore Maryland 21240
Specific requests for software must go thru COSMIC at the Univ of
Georgia NASAs contracted software redistribution service You can
reach them at cosmicugabitnet
NOTE Foreign nationals requesting information must go through their
Embassies in Washington DC These are facilities of the US Government
and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity Centers
cannot directly return information without high Center approval Allow
at least 1 month for clearance This includes COSMIC
The US Air Force Space Command can be contacted thru the Pentagon along with
other Department of Defense offices They have unacknowledged offices in
Los Angeles Sunnyvale Colorado Springs and other locations They have
a budget which rivals NASA in size
ARIANESPACE HEADQUARTERS
Boulevard de lEurope
BP 177
91006 Evry Cedex
France
ARIANESPACE INC
1747 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Suite 875
Washington DC 20006
2027289075
EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY ESA
955 LEnfant Plaza SW
Washington DC 20024
2024884158
NATIONAL SPACE DEVELOPMENT AGENCY NASDA
41 HamamatsuCho 2 Chome
MinatoKu Tokyo 105 JAPAN
SOYUZKARTA
45 Vologradsij Pr
Moscow 109125
USSR
SPACE CAMP
Alabama Space and Rocket Center US SPACE CAMP
1 Tranquility Base 6225 Vectorspace Blvd
Huntsville AL 35805 Titusville FL 32780
2058373400 4072673184
Registration and mailing list are handled through Huntsville both
camps are described in the same brochure
Programs offered at Space Camp are
Space Camp one week youngsters completing grades 46
Space Academy I one week grades 79
Aviation Challenge one week high school program grades 911
Space Academy II 8 days college accredited grades 1012
Adult Program 3 days editorial comment its great
Teachers Program 5 days
SPACE COMMERCE CORPORATION US agent for Soviet launch services
504 Pluto Drive 69th flr Texas Commerce Tower
Colorado Springs CO 80906 Houston TX 77002
7195785490 7132279000
SPACEHAB
600 Maryland Avenue SW
Suite 201 West
Washington DC 20004
2024883483
SPOT IMAGE CORPORATION
1857 Preston White Drive
Reston VA 22091
FAX 7036481813 7036202200
OTHER COMMERCIAL SPACE BUSINESSES
Vincent Cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety
of companies in spacerelated businesses This is mailed out on the
spaceinvestors list he runs see the Network Resources FAQ and is also
available by anonymous ftp from furmintnectarcscmuedu 1282209111 in
usrvacftpspacecompanies
NEXT FAQ 915 Schedules for space missions and how to see them
preprocess doc From: mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 39
In article <1993Apr12.124221.22592@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>
>Oh, this all sounds so nice! Everyone helping each other and always smiling
>and fluffy bunnies everywhere. Wake up! People are just not like that. It
>seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
>upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people. Isn't it obvious from
>places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
>then they are going to be attracted to positions of power? Sounds like a
>recipe for disaster.
>
>--
>
>Leonard e-mail: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk
Leonard, I'll give you an example of this....
My father recently bought a business, the business price was 150,000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help, he raised
60,000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and
Muslims he knew, 50,000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan, after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest, this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another, why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims. In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community.
The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight!
iThat is the beauty of Islam.
Mas
--
C I T I Z E N +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
_____ _____ | C A D E N C E D E S I G N S Y S T E M S Inc. |
\_/ | Masud Ahmed Khan mas@cadence.com All My Opinions|
_____/ \_____ +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
after prepro From masCadenceCOM Masud Khan
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Cadence Design Systems Inc
Lines 39
In article 1993Apr1212422122592bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
Oh this all sounds so nice Everyone helping each other and always smiling
and fluffy bunnies everywhere Wake up People are just not like that It
seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely
upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people Isnt it obvious from
places like Iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society
then they are going to be attracted to positions of power Sounds like a
recipe for disaster
Leonard email LNewnhambradfordacuk
Leonard Ill give you an example of this
My father recently bought a business the business price was 150000 pounds
and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised
60000 pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and
Muslims he knew 50000 had cash and the rest he got a business loan after
paying off the Muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans
to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this
is an example of a Muslim community helping one another why did they help
because of their common identity as Muslims In turn my father has helped
with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay
and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more
fortunate in the community
The fact is Leonard it DOES work without a fluffy bunny in sight
iThat is the beauty of Islam
Mas
C I T I Z E N
_____ _____ C A D E N C E D E S I G N S Y S T E M S Inc
\_ Masud Ahmed Khan mascadencecom All My Opinions
_____ \_____
preprocess doc From: mrf4276@egbsun12.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Matthew R. Feulner)
Subject: Re: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Nntp-Posting-Host: egbsun12.draper.com
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Lines: 18
In article <1993Apr20.234427.1@aurora.alaska.edu>, nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
|> Okay here is what I have so far:
|>
|> Have a group (any size, preferibly small, but?) send a human being to the moon,
|> set up a habitate and have the human(s) spend one earth year on the moon. Does
|> that mean no resupply or ??
|>
|> Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.
My first thought is Ross Perot. After further consideration, I think he'd
be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third.
Try Bill Gates. Try Sam Walton's kids.
Matt
matthew_feulner@qmlink.draper.com
after prepro From mrf4276egbsun12NoSubdomainNoDomain Matthew R Feulner
Subject Re Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
NntpPostingHost egbsun12drapercom
Organization Draper Laboratory
Lines 18
In article 1993Apr202344271auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Okay here is what I have so far
Have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon
set up a habitate and have the humans spend one earth year on the moon Does
that mean no resupply or
Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money
My first thought is Ross Perot After further consideration I think hed
be more likely to try to win itbut come in a disappointing third
Try Bill Gates Try Sam Waltons kids
Matt
matthew_feulnerqmlinkdrapercom
preprocess doc From: oreilly@olivia.la.asu.edu (Tom O'Reilly)
Subject: Russian Phobos Mission
Organization: Mars Observer TES Project, ASU, Tempe AZ
Distribution: sci.space
Lines: 11
Yes, the Phobos mission did return some useful data including images of Phobos
itself. The best I've seen had a surface resolution of about 40 meters. By
the way, the new book entitled "Mars" (Kieffer et al, 1992, University of
Arizona Press) has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet.
The chapter is co-authored by V.I. Moroz of the Space Research Institute in
Moscow, and includes details never before published in the West. Don't
know of any ftp sites with images though.
Tom O'Reilly
Department of Geology
Arizona State University
after prepro From oreillyolivialaasuedu Tom OReilly
Subject Russian Phobos Mission
Organization Mars Observer TES Project ASU Tempe AZ
Distribution scispace
Lines 11
Yes the Phobos mission did return some useful data including images of Phobos
itself The best Ive seen had a surface resolution of about 40 meters By
the way the new book entitled Mars Kieffer et al 1992 University of
Arizona Press has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet
The chapter is coauthored by VI Moroz of the Space Research Institute in
Moscow and includes details never before published in the West Dont
know of any ftp sites with images though
Tom OReilly
Department of Geology
Arizona State University
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>>But chimps are almost human...
>Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will?
Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re But chimps are almost human
Does this mean that Chimps have a moral will
Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
keith
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Ontology (was: Benediktine Metaphysics)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 46
In article <66019@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>
>> IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.
>
>"Contradictory" is a property of language. If I correct this to
>
>
> THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
No need to correct it, it stands as it is said.
>I will object to definitions as reality. If you then amend it to
>
> THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>then we've come to something which is plainly false. Failures in
>description are merely failures in description.
>
You miss the point entirely. Things defined by contradictory language
do not exist. Though something existing might be meant, conclusions
drawn from the description are wrong, unless there is the possibility
to find the described, and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of
the described then. Another possibility is to drop the contradictory
part, but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented
and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well.
>(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)
>
Neither am I. But either things are directly sensed (which includes
some form of modelling, by the way) or they are used in modelling.
Using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of.
Wonder why?
We remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed
as contradictory. An important point is that either one manages to
resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer
to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions, or one will fall
in the garbage in garbage out trap.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Ontology was Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 46
In article 66019mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST
Contradictory is a property of language If I correct this to
THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
No need to correct it it stands as it is said
I will object to definitions as reality If you then amend it to
THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
then weve come to something which is plainly false Failures in
description are merely failures in description
You miss the point entirely Things defined by contradictory language
do not exist Though something existing might be meant conclusions
drawn from the description are wrong unless there is the possibility
to find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of
the described then Another possibility is to drop the contradictory
part but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented
and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well
Im not an objectivist remember
Neither am I But either things are directly sensed which includes
some form of modelling by the way or they are used in modelling
Using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of
Wonder why
We remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed
as contradictory An important point is that either one manages to
resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer
to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions or one will fall
in the garbage in garbage out trap
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Keywords: Dan Bissell
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines: 14
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy.
Find an encyclopedia. Volume H. Now look up Hitler, Adolf. He had
many more people than just Germans enamoured with him.
P.
--
moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y Come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - GeoffM
brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
after prepro From pmoloneymathstcdie Paul Moloney
Subject Re some thoughts
Keywords Dan Bissell
Organization Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines 14
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy
Find an encyclopedia Volume H Now look up Hitler Adolf He had
many more people than just Germans enamoured with him
P
moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y Come let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment GeoffM
brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 76
Chris Faehl writes:
> >Many atheists do not mock the concept of a god, they are shocked that
> >so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually
> >believe in a god. You accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy,
> >again without evidence.
>
>> Rule *2: Condescending to the population at large (i.e., theists) will >not
>> win many people to your faith anytime soon. It only ruins your credibility.
>Fallacy #1: Atheism is a faith. Lo! I hear the FAQ beckoning once again...
>[wonderful Rule #3 deleted - you're correct, you didn't say anything >about
>a conspiracy]
Correction: _hard_ atheism is a faith.
>> Rule #4: Don't mix apples with oranges. How can you say that the
>> extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin? Khan conquered people
>> unsympathetic to his cause. That was atrocious. But Stalin killed millions of
>> his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! How can
>> anyone be worse than that?
>I will not explain this to you again: Stalin did nothing in the name of
>atheism. Whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant.
Get a grip, man. The Stalin example was brought up not as an
indictment of atheism, but merely as another example of how people will
kill others under any name that's fit for the occasion.
>> Rule #6: If you rely on evidence, state it. We're waiting.
>As opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper...
>Atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else. It is the burden of
>dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their 'evidence'. Which 'we'
>might you be referring to, and how long are you going to wait?
So hard atheism has nothing to prove? Then how does it justify that
God does not exist? I know, there's the FAQ, etc. But guess what -- if
those justifications were so compelling why aren't people flocking to
_hard_ atheism? They're not, and they won't. I for one will discourage
people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable
statements on hard atheism.
Second, what makes you think I'm defending any given religion? I'm merely
recognizing hard atheism for what it is, a faith.
And yes, by "we" I am referring to every reader of the post. Where is the
evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon?
>
>> Oh yes, though I'm not a theist, I can say safely that *by definition* many
>> theists are not arrogant, since they boast about something _outside_
>> themselves, namely, a god or gods. So in principle it's hard to see how
>> theists are necessarily arrogant.
>Because they say, "Such-and-such is absolutely unalterably True, because
^^^^
>my dogma says it is True." I am not prepared to issue blanket statements
>indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists.
Bzzt! By virtue of your innocent little pronoun, "they", you've just issued
a blanket statement. At least I will apologize by qualifying my original
statement with "hard atheist" in place of atheist. Would you call John the
Baptist arrogant, who boasted of one greater than he? That's what many
Christians do today. How is that _in itself_ arrogant?
>
>> I'm not worthy!
>Only seriously misinformed.
With your sophisticated put-down of "they", the theists, _your_ serious
misinformation shines through.
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 76
Chris Faehl writes
Many atheists do not mock the concept of a god they are shocked that
so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually
believe in a god You accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy
again without evidence
Rule 2 Condescending to the population at large ie theists will not
win many people to your faith anytime soon It only ruins your credibility
Fallacy 1 Atheism is a faith Lo I hear the FAQ beckoning once again
[wonderful Rule 3 deleted youre correct you didnt say anything about
a conspiracy]
Correction _hard_ atheism is a faith
Rule 4 Dont mix apples with oranges How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause That was atrocious But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state How can
anyone be worse than that
I will not explain this to you again Stalin did nothing in the name of
atheism Whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant
Get a grip man The Stalin example was brought up not as an
indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will
kill others under any name thats fit for the occasion
Rule 6 If you rely on evidence state it Were waiting
As opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper
Atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else It is the burden of
dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their evidence Which we
might you be referring to and how long are you going to wait
So hard atheism has nothing to prove Then how does it justify that
God does not exist I know theres the FAQ etc But guess what if
those justifications were so compelling why arent people flocking to
_hard_ atheism Theyre not and they wont I for one will discourage
people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable
statements on hard atheism
Second what makes you think Im defending any given religion Im merely
recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith
And yes by we I am referring to every reader of the post Where is the
evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon
Oh yes though Im not a theist I can say safely that by definition many
theists are not arrogant since they boast about something _outside_
themselves namely a god or gods So in principle its hard to see how
theists are necessarily arrogant
Because they say Suchandsuch is absolutely unalterably True because
^^^^
my dogma says it is True I am not prepared to issue blanket statements
indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists
Bzzt By virtue of your innocent little pronoun they youve just issued
a blanket statement At least I will apologize by qualifying my original
statement with hard atheist in place of atheist Would you call John the
Baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he Thats what many
Christians do today How is that _in itself_ arrogant
Im not worthy
Only seriously misinformed
With your sophisticated putdown of they the theists _your_ serious
misinformation shines through
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
Organization: Me, at The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: sci
Lines: 29
In article <15APR199320340428@stdvax> abdkw@stdvax (David Ward) writes:
>In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>>There has been something bothering me while watching
>>NASA Select for a while. Well, I should'nt say
>>bothering, maybe wondering would be better. When
>>they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
>>exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
>>"Clear caution & warning memory. Verify no unexpected
>>errors. ...". I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>>be. Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
>
>
>In pure speculation, I would guess cautions based on hazardous
>pre-launch ops would qualify. Something like "Caution: SRBs
>have just been armed."
Also in pure speculation:
Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered.
"Yes that is an error, but we already knew about it"
Any problem where they decided a backup would handle it.
Any problem in an area that was not criticality 1,2,3..., that is, any
problem in a system they decided they could do without.
I'd be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is.
tom
after prepro From tombakerworldstdcom Tom A Baker
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
Organization Me at The World Public Access UNIX Brookline MA
Distribution sci
Lines 29
In article 15APR199320340428stdvax abdkwstdvax David Ward writes
In article ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution warning memory Verify no unexpected
errors I am wondering what an expected error might
be Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
In pure speculation I would guess cautions based on hazardous
prelaunch ops would qualify Something like Caution SRBs
have just been armed
Also in pure speculation
Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered
Yes that is an error but we already knew about it
Any problem where they decided a backup would handle it
Any problem in an area that was not criticality 123 that is any
problem in a system they decided they could do without
Id be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is
tom
preprocess doc From: howard@sharps.astro.wisc.edu (Greg Howard)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Astronomy Department
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: uwast.astro.wisc.edu
Actually, the "ether" stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare,
qualitative corruption of general relativity. nothing to do with
the old-fashioned, ether, though. maybe somebody could loan him
a GR text at a low level.
didn't get much further than that, tho.... whew.
greg
after prepro From howardsharpsastrowiscedu Greg Howard
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization University of Wisconsin Astronomy Department
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost uwastastrowiscedu
Actually the ether stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare
qualitative corruption of general relativity nothing to do with
the oldfashioned ether though maybe somebody could loan him
a GR text at a low level
didnt get much further than that tho whew
greg
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 16
on Date: 01 Apr 93 18:03:12 GMT, Ralph Buttigieg <ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au>
writes:
/Why can't the government just be a tennant? Private commercial concerns
/could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government
/financed researchers wanting to use it.
I believe that this was the thought behind the Industrial Space Facility. I
don't remember all the details, but I think Space Services (?) wanted NASA to
sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but
NASA didn't like the deal. (I'm sure I'll hear about it if I'm wrong!)
Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
"Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 16
on Date 01 Apr 93 180312 GMT Ralph Buttigieg
writes
Why cant the government just be a tennant Private commercial concerns
could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government
financed researchers wanting to use it
I believe that this was the thought behind the Industrial Space Facility I
dont remember all the details but I think Space Services wanted NASA to
sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but
NASA didnt like the deal Im sure Ill hear about it if Im wrong
Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Nasa (dis)incentives
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 23
[questions and issues WRT congress raised and discussed}
Dennis Replies;
>Now black when it is white is just white. Except that when black is called
>white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is
>justified to call black, white. It is also apparant that when white is called
>black, just the opposite occurs. Now white is a color, but when white is
>called black, it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum.
...
>It is a given however that NASA nor the military, whose competence in
>differentating black from white is well known (remember the black and
>white paint on the Saturn V rocket?) That nothing will occur here either.
>When black and white are used by congress, who cares nothing for results,
>just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the black/white
>controversy....
Dennis, why must you always see things in black and white terms? :-)
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Nasa disincentives
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 23
[questions and issues WRT congress raised and discussed
Dennis Replies
Now black when it is white is just white Except that when black is called
white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is
justified to call black white It is also apparant that when white is called
black just the opposite occurs Now white is a color but when white is
called black it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum
It is a given however that NASA nor the military whose competence in
differentating black from white is well known remember the black and
white paint on the Saturn V rocket That nothing will occur here either
When black and white are used by congress who cares nothing for results
just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the blackwhite
controversy
Dennis why must you always see things in black and white terms
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: University of Rochester
In article <844@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:
> Ok, so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria? I figure
> that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it.
> Any comments?
They exist. Even photosynthetic varieties. Not economical at this
time, though.
Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu
after prepro From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization University of Rochester
In article 844rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes
Ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria I figure
that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it
Any comments
They exist Even photosynthetic varieties Not economical at this
time though
Paul F Dietz
dietzcsrochesteredu
preprocess doc From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 33
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Nanci Ann Miller writes:
>>My favorite reply to the "you are being too literal-minded" complaint is
>>that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
>>important to him, then he would make damn certain all the translators and
>>scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right,
>>literally. If not, then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
>>that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
>>originally inspired by God?
>The "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak. Comparison of the
>current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
>has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia. This
>shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
>are likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
>--
Do you honestly hold to that tripe Charley? For a start there are enough
current versions of the Bible to make comparisons to show that what you write
above is utter garbage. Witness JW, Mormon, Catholic, Anglican, and Greek
Orthodox Bibles. But to really convince you I'd have to take you to a good
old library. In our local library we had a 1804 King James which I compared
to a brand new, hot of God's tongue Good News Bible. Genesis was almost
unrecognisable, many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been
edited from the Good News Bible. In fact the God of Good News was a much
more congenial fellow I must say.
If you like I'll get the 1804 King James out again and actually give you
some quotes. At least the headings haven't changed much.
Jeff.
after prepro From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 33
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Nanci Ann Miller writes
My favorite reply to the you are being too literalminded complaint is
that if the bible is really inspired by God and if it is really THAT
important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and
scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right
literally If not then why should I put ANY merit at all in something
that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was
originally inspired by God
The corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak Comparison of the
current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia This
shouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
are likely to makes some pains to make good copies
Do you honestly hold to that tripe Charley For a start there are enough
current versions of the Bible to make comparisons to show that what you write
above is utter garbage Witness JW Mormon Catholic Anglican and Greek
Orthodox Bibles But to really convince you Id have to take you to a good
old library In our local library we had a 1804 King James which I compared
to a brand new hot of Gods tongue Good News Bible Genesis was almost
unrecognisable many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been
edited from the Good News Bible In fact the God of Good News was a much
more congenial fellow I must say
If you like Ill get the 1804 King James out again and actually give you
some quotes At least the headings havent changed much
Jeff
preprocess doc From: davidk@welch.jhu.edu (David "Go-Go" Kitaguchi)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Nntp-Posting-Host: uss1.welch.jhu.edu
Reply-To: davidk@welch.jhu.edu
Organization: Welch Medical Library
Lines: 56
:P>My atheism is incidental, and the question of "God" is trivial.
:P
:P>But........
:P
:P>It matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me,
:P>when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
:P>fact in school, when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
:P>from "God", when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
:P>shouldn't be considered a citizen and couldn't be patriotic because "after
:P>all this is one nation under God", when the fundies try to take over the
:P>party that may well provide the next President of The United States of
:P>America so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country,
:P>et cetera..........
:P
:P>That's why I subscribe to alt.atheism.
:P
:P>And in the middle of this, people who aren't mind readers pop up on
:P>alt.atheism to tell me what I do or don't believe, or to concoct some
:P>straw-man reason why I don't share their particular belief.
:P
:P>You think I should just accept this?
:P
:P>This isn't particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians. I have been
:P>told on alt.atheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
:P>islam, and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed. But most of
:P>the religious nuts who post on alt.atheism are some kind of militant
:P>christian who can't accept that others don't share their beliefs. This
:P>kind of stuff should be kept on talk.religion.misc, where it belongs.
:P
:P>ATHEISM ISN'T A BELIEF, IT'S THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS.
:P> -------
:P
:P>Do you have a problem with this?
:P
:P>>
:P>>Bill
:PFirst, I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief. It is a beilief
:Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith. An atheist says there are no gods. This cannot be proven. therefore you are excepting this on
:Pfaith alone. That is a belief. Secondly, you complain so much about how the
:Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you, but you don't
:Pmention anything about how the atheists, such as; Madamme Murry O'hare(founder
:Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas), and Robert Sherman(from the Chicago area) have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas, forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it (like Sherman has done), or trying to get the slogan "In God We Trust" off of the American currency? You also talk about creation "myths" as if they are in fact myths and tha
:P
:P
:P
:Phave concrete evidece of this. You probably
:Pdon't and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity. If this is not so please do show me why it isn't.
:PMark Covalt
The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin. As soon as christians become the
good non ego-centric Buddhists they are supposed to be, then I might listen.
My opinion, I speak not for my place of employment... But I should...
"Christ was over-rated, and will the ATF follow Koresh (the current Christ) through
his ascention to heaven?"
after prepro From davidkwelchjhuedu David GoGo Kitaguchi
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
NntpPostingHost uss1welchjhuedu
ReplyTo davidkwelchjhuedu
Organization Welch Medical Library
Lines 56
PMy atheism is incidental and the question of God is trivial
P
PBut
P
PIt matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me
Pwhen they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific
Pfact in school when they tell me I can have no morals because morals are
Pfrom God when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist
Pshouldnt be considered a citizen and couldnt be patriotic because after
Pall this is one nation under God when the fundies try to take over the
Pparty that may well provide the next President of The United States of
PAmerica so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country
Pet cetera
P
PThats why I subscribe to altatheism
P
PAnd in the middle of this people who arent mind readers pop up on
Paltatheism to tell me what I do or dont believe or to concoct some
Pstrawman reason why I dont share their particular belief
P
PYou think I should just accept this
P
PThis isnt particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians I have been
Ptold on altatheism that I reject Allah because I am too proud to embrace
Pislam and that I reject Krishna because my eyes are closed But most of
Pthe religious nuts who post on altatheism are some kind of militant
Pchristian who cant accept that others dont share their beliefs This
Pkind of stuff should be kept on talkreligionmisc where it belongs
P
PATHEISM ISNT A BELIEF ITS THE ABSENCE OF BELIEF IN ANY GODS
P
P
PDo you have a problem with this
P
P
PBill
PFirst I would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief It is a beilief
Pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith An atheist says there are no gods This cannot be proven therefore you are excepting this on
Pfaith alone That is a belief Secondly you complain so much about how the
Pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you but you dont
Pmention anything about how the atheists such as Madamme Murry Oharefounder
Pof the Atheists Association in Austin Texas and Robert Shermanfrom the Chicago area have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of God from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during Chistmas forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of God in it like Sherman has done or trying to get the slogan In God We Trust off of the American currency You also talk about creation myths as if they are in fact myths and tha
P
P
P
Phave concrete evidece of this You probably
Pdont and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity If this is not so please do show me why it isnt
PMark Covalt
The only real problem I have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being Asiatic in origin As soon as christians become the
good non egocentric Buddhists they are supposed to be then I might listen
My opinion I speak not for my place of employment But I should
Christ was overrated and will the ATF follow Koresh the current Christ through
his ascention to heaven
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 74
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
>the feat of "definitely" terming actions right or wrong.
If you were omniscient, you'd know who exactly did what, and with what
purpose in mind. Then, with a particular goal in mind, you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal.
>>>I don't think you've show the existence of *any* objective moral system.
>>They exist, but in practice, they are difficult to perfectly emulate.
>>I mean, you understand the concept of an objective system, right?
>I thought you were explaining it to us. I certainly don't
>understand what you are explaining.
In an objective system, there are known goals. Then, actions are judged
as either being compatible with these goals, or not. Simple. The problem
with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ. That is,
the goals of each society are different.
Note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one.
>>The concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are
>>"right" or "wrong," and this depends on the moral system. But, if
>>we have an objective system, then someone can be deemed innocent or
>>not quite easily by an omniscient person. Anyway, I think I cleared
>>up the recursive definition of "murder," because no one is complaining
>>about it.
>I don't think it solves anything to speculate where we would be
>if we *did* have an objective moral system. The question is
>still whether you can even say what one is.
I've said it many, many times.
>And for what it's worth, I don't think you cleared up *anything*
>concerning murder.
Which part do you have a problem with?
>>>What do you mean by "harmed?" Is it harm if you have to spend
>>>your existence metabolising food for another species?
>>Oh, most moral systems would be considered only within a species. It
>>is okay for us to enslave other animals, right? But not humans...
>>Of course, ideally, perhaps we wouldn't even have to bother any other
>>animals...
>One the first point, it's wrong to enslave humans according to my
>persoanl moral system. On the second point, I'm a vegetarian.
But, we can enslave the animals, right? But just not kill them? Or
are you a vegetarian for health reasons?
>So, are you a vegetarian?
No. I fail to see how my *personal* views are relevant, anyway.
>Is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system?
Of course not. It seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species
for food. It might be nice, though, if the other animals were not made
to suffer. For instance, a cow in a field lives out its life just about
the same way it would in the wild. They seem happy enough. However,
the veal youngsters aren't treated very well.
>How about an "objective" moral system?
I don't know. What is the goal of this particular system? There is no
inherent system.
>How about a "natural" moral system.
Nope. Again, it seems okay to kill other species for food.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Objective morality was Re I want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform
the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong
If you were omniscient youd know who exactly did what and with what
purpose in mind Then with a particular goal in mind you sould be
able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance
with the general goal
I dont think youve show the existence of any objective moral system
They exist but in practice they are difficult to perfectly emulate
I mean you understand the concept of an objective system right
I thought you were explaining it to us I certainly dont
understand what you are explaining
In an objective system there are known goals Then actions are judged
as either being compatible with these goals or not Simple The problem
with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ That is
the goals of each society are different
Note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one
The concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are
right or wrong and this depends on the moral system But if
we have an objective system then someone can be deemed innocent or
not quite easily by an omniscient person Anyway I think I cleared
up the recursive definition of murder because no one is complaining
about it
I dont think it solves anything to speculate where we would be
if we did have an objective moral system The question is
still whether you can even say what one is
Ive said it many many times
And for what its worth I dont think you cleared up anything
concerning murder
Which part do you have a problem with
What do you mean by harmed Is it harm if you have to spend
your existence metabolising food for another species
Oh most moral systems would be considered only within a species It
is okay for us to enslave other animals right But not humans
Of course ideally perhaps we wouldnt even have to bother any other
animals
One the first point its wrong to enslave humans according to my
persoanl moral system On the second point Im a vegetarian
But we can enslave the animals right But just not kill them Or
are you a vegetarian for health reasons
So are you a vegetarian
No I fail to see how my personal views are relevant anyway
Is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system
Of course not It seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species
for food It might be nice though if the other animals were not made
to suffer For instance a cow in a field lives out its life just about
the same way it would in the wild They seem happy enough However
the veal youngsters arent treated very well
How about an objective moral system
I dont know What is the goal of this particular system There is no
inherent system
How about a natural moral system
Nope Again it seems okay to kill other species for food
keith
preprocess doc From: landis@stsci.edu (Robert Landis,S202,,)
Subject: Re: Soviet Space Book
Reply-To: landis@stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore MD
Lines: 9
What in blazes is going on with Wayne Matson and gang
down in Alabama? I also heard an unconfirmed rumor that
Aerospace Ambassadors have disappeared. Can anyone else
confirm??
++Rob Landis
STScI, Baltimore, MD
after prepro From landisstsciedu Robert LandisS202
Subject Re Soviet Space Book
ReplyTo landisstsciedu
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute Baltimore MD
Lines 9
What in blazes is going on with Wayne Matson and gang
down in Alabama I also heard an unconfirmed rumor that
Aerospace Ambassadors have disappeared Can anyone else
confirm
Rob Landis
STScI Baltimore MD
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: End of the Space Age?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Oddly, enough, The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight. I would call it the granite years,
reflecting the primitive nature of it. It was romantic,
swashbuckling daredevils, "those daring young men in their flying
machines". But in reality, it sucked. Death was a highly likely
occurence, and the environment blew. Ever see the early navy
pressure suits, they were modified diving suits. You were ready to
star in "plan 9 from outer space". Radios and Nav AIds were
a joke, and engines ran on castor oil. They picked and called aviators
"men with iron stomachs", and it wasn't due to vertigo.
Oddly enough, now we are in the golden age of flight. I can hop the
shuttle to NY for $90 bucks, now that's golden.
Mercury gemini, and apollo were romantic, but let's be honest.
Peeing in bags, having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime
you needed a bowel movement. Living for days inside a VW Bug.
Romantic, but not commercial. The DC-X points out a most likely
new golden age. An age where fat cigar smoking business men in
loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls
and used space ship lots.
hhhmmmmm, maybe i'll retract that golden age bit. Maybe it was
better in the old days. Of course, then we'll have wally schirra
telling his great grand children, "In my day, we walked on the moon.
Every day. Miles. no buses. you kids got it soft".
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re End of the Space Age
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Oddly enough The smithsonian calls the lindbergh years
the golden age of flight I would call it the granite years
reflecting the primitive nature of it It was romantic
swashbuckling daredevils those daring young men in their flying
machines But in reality it sucked Death was a highly likely
occurence and the environment blew Ever see the early navy
pressure suits they were modified diving suits You were ready to
star in plan 9 from outer space Radios and Nav AIds were
a joke and engines ran on castor oil They picked and called aviators
men with iron stomachs and it wasnt due to vertigo
Oddly enough now we are in the golden age of flight I can hop the
shuttle to NY for 90 bucks now thats golden
Mercury gemini and apollo were romantic but lets be honest
Peeing in bags having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime
you needed a bowel movement Living for days inside a VW Bug
Romantic but not commercial The DCX points out a most likely
new golden age An age where fat cigar smoking business men in
loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls
and used space ship lots
hhhmmmmm maybe ill retract that golden age bit Maybe it was
better in the old days Of course then well have wally schirra
telling his great grand children In my day we walked on the moon
Every day Miles no buses you kids got it soft
pat
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: HST, Pluto, Uranus
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope:
o The Faint Object Spectrograph (FOS) was used to make ultraviolet
observations of both the planet Pluto, and its moon Charon. The
peakups were successful. The observations were executed as
scheduled, and no problems were reported.
o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus. These
observations will help in our understanding of the planet's
atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes. This event occurred
close to the last quarter moon, and special arrangements had to be
made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations.
The observations are currently being reviewed, and all the
observations looked okay.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Some Recent Observations by Hubble
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords HST Pluto Uranus
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Here are some recent observations taken by the Hubble Space Telescope
o The Faint Object Spectrograph FOS was used to make ultraviolet
observations of both the planet Pluto and its moon Charon The
peakups were successful The observations were executed as
scheduled and no problems were reported
o Observations were made using the High Speed Photometer of the Planet
Uranus during an occultation by a faint star in Capricornus These
observations will help in our understanding of the planets
atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes This event occurred
close to the last quarter moon and special arrangements had to be
made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations
The observations are currently being reviewed and all the
observations looked okay
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
cmtan@iss.nus.sg (Tan Chade Meng - dan) writes:
>I somewhat agree with u. However, what it comes to (theist) religion,
>it's a different matter. That's because religion is like a drug, once u
>use it, it's very difficult to get out of it. That's because in
>order to experience a religion, u necessarily have to have blind faith,
>and once u have the blind faith, it's very diffcult for you to reason
>yourself back to atheism again.
>Therefore, it's unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to
>judge it. It's like asking people to "try dying to find out what
>death is like".
Well now, we can't judge death until we are dead right? So, why should
we judge religion without having experienced it? People have said that
religion is bad by any account, and that it is in no way useful, etc.,
but I don't totally agree with this. Of course, we cannot really say
how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion,
but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it.
So basically, we can not judge whether religion is the right route for
a given individual, or even for a general population. We can say that
it is not best for us personally (at least, you can choose not to use
religion--might be hard to try to find out its benefits, as you state
above).
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
cmtanissnussg Tan Chade Meng dan writes
I somewhat agree with u However what it comes to theist religion
its a different matter Thats because religion is like a drug once u
use it its very difficult to get out of it Thats because in
order to experience a religion u necessarily have to have blind faith
and once u have the blind faith its very diffcult for you to reason
yourself back to atheism again
Therefore its unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to
judge it Its like asking people to try dying to find out what
death is like
Well now we cant judge death until we are dead right So why should
we judge religion without having experienced it People have said that
religion is bad by any account and that it is in no way useful etc
but I dont totally agree with this Of course we cannot really say
how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion
but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it
So basically we can not judge whether religion is the right route for
a given individual or even for a general population We can say that
it is not best for us personally at least you can choose not to use
religionmight be hard to try to find out its benefits as you state
above
keith
preprocess doc From: daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis)
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: NSPC
Distribution: na
Lines: 107
In article <1quule$5re@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>
|> AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
|> May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
|>
|> Does anyone know more about this? How much, to attend????
|>
|> Anyone want to go?
|>
|> pat
Here are some selected excerpts of the invitation/registration form they
sent me. Retyped without permission, all typo's are mine.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Low-Cost Lunar Access: A one-day conference to explore the means and
benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program.
Friday, May 7, 1993
Hyatt Regency - Crystal City Hotel
Arlington, VA
ABOUT THE CONFERENCE
The Low-Cost Lunar Access conference will be a forum for the exchange of
ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program.
Inherent in such low-cost programs is the principle that they be
implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time
frame.
[more deleted]
CONFERENCE PROGRAM (Preliminary)
In the Washington Room:
9:00 - 9:10 a.m. Opening Remarks
Dr. Alan M. Lovelace
9:10 - 9:30 a.m. Keynote Address
Mr. Brian Dailey
9:30 - 10:00 a.m. U.S. Policy Outlook
John Pike, American Federation of Scientists
A discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new low-cost
lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space
program is taking.
10:00 - 12:00 noon Morning Plenary Sessions
Presentations on architectures, systems, and operational concepts.
Emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant
advancements beyond Apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the
present era of severely constrained budgets
In the Potomac Room
12:00 - 1:30 p.m. Lunch
Guest Speaker: Mr. John W. Young,
NASA Special Assistant and former astronaut
In the Washington Room
1:30 - 2:00 p.m. International Policy Outlook
Ian Pryke (invited)
ESA, Washington Office
The prevailing situation with respect to international space
commitments, with insights into preconditions for European
entry into new agreements, as would be required for a cooperative
lunar program.
2:00 - 3:30 p.m. Afternoon Plenary Sessions
Presentations on scientific objectives, benefits, and applications.
Emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value
of a lunar program and its timeliness.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a registration form and the fee is US$75.00. The mail address
is
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Dept. No. 0018
Washington, DC 20073-0018
and the FAX No. is:
(202) 646-7508
or it says you can register on-site during the AIAA annual meeting
and on Friday morning, May 7, from 7:30-10:30
Sounds interesting. Too bad I can't go.
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
| * _!!!!_ * |
| Steven Davis * / \ \ * |
| daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov * (<o><o>) * |
| * \>_db_</ * McDonnell Douglas |
| - I don't represent * |vv| * Space Systems Company|
| anybody but myself. - * (__) * Houston Division |
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
after prepro From davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization NSPC
Distribution na
Lines 107
In article 1quule5reaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
Does anyone know more about this How much to attend
Anyone want to go
pat
Here are some selected excerpts of the invitationregistration form they
sent me Retyped without permission all typos are mine
LowCost Lunar Access A oneday conference to explore the means and
benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program
Friday May 7 1993
Hyatt Regency Crystal City Hotel
Arlington VA
ABOUT THE CONFERENCE
The LowCost Lunar Access conference will be a forum for the exchange of
ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program
Inherent in such lowcost programs is the principle that they be
implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time
frame
[more deleted]
CONFERENCE PROGRAM Preliminary
In the Washington Room
900 910 am Opening Remarks
Dr Alan M Lovelace
910 930 am Keynote Address
Mr Brian Dailey
930 1000 am US Policy Outlook
John Pike American Federation of Scientists
A discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new lowcost
lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space
program is taking
1000 1200 noon Morning Plenary Sessions
Presentations on architectures systems and operational concepts
Emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant
advancements beyond Apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the
present era of severely constrained budgets
In the Potomac Room
1200 130 pm Lunch
Guest Speaker Mr John W Young
NASA Special Assistant and former astronaut
In the Washington Room
130 200 pm International Policy Outlook
Ian Pryke invited
ESA Washington Office
The prevailing situation with respect to international space
commitments with insights into preconditions for European
entry into new agreements as would be required for a cooperative
lunar program
200 330 pm Afternoon Plenary Sessions
Presentations on scientific objectives benefits and applications
Emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value
of a lunar program and its timeliness
There is a registration form and the fee is US7500 The mail address
is
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Dept No 0018
Washington DC 200730018
and the FAX No is
202 6467508
or it says you can register onsite during the AIAA annual meeting
and on Friday morning May 7 from 7301030
Sounds interesting Too bad I cant go
__
Steven Davis \ \
davisssweetpeajscnasagov
\_db_ McDonnell Douglas
I dont represent vv Space Systems Company
anybody but myself __ Houston Division
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 67
In article <1pq47tINN8lp@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
bobs@thnext.mit.edu (Robert Singleton) writes:
(Deletion)
>
>I will argue that your latter statement, "I believe that no gods exist"
>does rest upon faith - that is, if you are making a POSITIVE statement
>that "no gods exist" (strong atheism) rather than merely saying I don't
>know and therefore don't believe in them and don't NOT believe in then
>(weak atheism). Once again, to not believe in God is different than saying
>I BELIEVE that God does not exist. I still maintain the position, even
>after reading the FAQs, that strong atheism requires faith.
>
No it in the way it is usually used. In my view, you are saying here that
driving a car requires faith that the car drives.
For me it is a conclusion, and I have no more faith in it than I have in the
premises and the argument used.
>But first let me say the following.
>We might have a language problem here - in regards to "faith" and
>"existence". I, as a Christian, maintain that God does not exist.
>To exist means to have being in space and time. God does not HAVE
>being - God IS Being. Kierkegaard once said that God does not
>exist, He is eternal. With this said, I feel it's rather pointless
>to debate the so called "existence" of God - and that is not what
>I'm doing here. I believe that God is the source and ground of
>being. When you say that "god does not exist", I also accept this
>statement - but we obviously mean two different things by it. However,
>in what follows I will use the phrase "the existence of God" in it's
>'usual sense' - and this is the sense that I think you are using it.
>I would like a clarification upon what you mean by "the existence of
>God".
>
No, that's a word game. The term god is used in a different way usually.
When you use a different definition it is your thing, but until it is
commonly accepted you would have to say the way I define god is ... and
that does not exist, it is existence itself, so I say it does not exist.
Interestingly, there are those who say that "existence exists" is one of
the indubitable statements possible.
Further, saying god is existence is either a waste of time, existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god, or you are implying
more with it, in which case your definition and your argument so far
are incomplete, making it a fallacy.
(Deletion)
>One can never prove that God does or does not exist. When you say
>that you believe God does not exist, and that this is an opinion
>"based upon observation", I will have to ask "what observtions are
>you refering to?" There are NO observations - pro or con - that
>are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief.
(Deletion)
Where does that follow? Aren't observations based on the assumption
that something exists?
And wouldn't you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
"god is" is meaningful. If not, I would reject that concept anyway.
So, where is your evidence for that "god is" is meaningful at some level?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 67
In article 1pq47tINN8lpsenatorbedfellowMITEDU
bobsthnextmitedu Robert Singleton writes
Deletion
I will argue that your latter statement I believe that no gods exist
does rest upon faith that is if you are making a POSITIVE statement
that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying I dont
know and therefore dont believe in them and dont NOT believe in then
weak atheism Once again to not believe in God is different than saying
I BELIEVE that God does not exist I still maintain the position even
after reading the FAQs that strong atheism requires faith
No it in the way it is usually used In my view you are saying here that
driving a car requires faith that the car drives
For me it is a conclusion and I have no more faith in it than I have in the
premises and the argument used
But first let me say the following
We might have a language problem here in regards to faith and
existence I as a Christian maintain that God does not exist
To exist means to have being in space and time God does not HAVE
being God IS Being Kierkegaard once said that God does not
exist He is eternal With this said I feel its rather pointless
to debate the so called existence of God and that is not what
Im doing here I believe that God is the source and ground of
being When you say that god does not exist I also accept this
statement but we obviously mean two different things by it However
in what follows I will use the phrase the existence of God in its
usual sense and this is the sense that I think you are using it
I would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of
God
No thats a word game The term god is used in a different way usually
When you use a different definition it is your thing but until it is
commonly accepted you would have to say the way I define god is and
that does not exist it is existence itself so I say it does not exist
Interestingly there are those who say that existence exists is one of
the indubitable statements possible
Further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is
already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying
more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far
are incomplete making it a fallacy
Deletion
One can never prove that God does or does not exist When you say
that you believe God does not exist and that this is an opinion
based upon observation I will have to ask what observtions are
you refering to There are NO observations pro or con that
are valid here in establishing a POSITIVE belief
Deletion
Where does that follow Arent observations based on the assumption
that something exists
And wouldnt you say there is a level of definition that the assumption
god is is meaningful If not I would reject that concept anyway
So where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
Lines: 52
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 52
In article <1993Apr14.190904.21222@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
>Subject: Re: note to Bobby M.
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 19:09:04 GMT
>In article <1993Apr14.131548.15938@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>In <madhausC5CKIp.21H@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) writes:
>>
>>>Mark, how much do you *REALLY* know about vegetarian diets?
>>>The problem is not "some" B-vitamins, it's balancing proteins.
>>>There is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from non-animal
>>>products, and this is only of concern to VEGANS, who eat no
>>>meat, dairy, or eggs. I believe it is B12, and it is the only
>>>problem. Supplements are available for vegans; yes, the B12
>>>does come from animal by-products. If you are on an ovo-lacto
>>>vegetarian diet (eat dairy and eggs) this is not an issue.
>
>I didn't see the original posting, but...
>Yes, I do know about vegetarian diets, considering that several of my
>close friends are devout vegetarians, and have to take vitamin supplements.
>B12 was one of the ones I was thinking of, it has been a long time since
>I read the article I once saw talking about the special dietary needs
>of vegetarians so I didn't quote full numbers. (Considering how nice
>this place is. ;)
>
>>B12 can also come from whole-grain rice, I understand. Some brands here
>>in Australia (and other places too, I'm sure) get the B12 in the B12
>>tablets from whole-grain rice.
>
>Are you sure those aren't an enriched type? I know it is basically
>rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need, but I hadn't heard
>of any rice having B12.
>
>>Just thought I'd contribute on a different issue from the norm :)
>
>You should have contributed to the programming thread earlier. :)
>
>> Fred Rice
>> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
>
>M^2
>
If one is a vegan (a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i.e eggs,
milk, cheese, etc., after about 3 years of a vegan diet, you need to start
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals.) Acutally our
bodies make B12, I think, but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3
years.
Lacto-oveo vegetarians, like myself, still get B12 through milk products
and eggs, so we don't need supplements.
And If anyone knows more, PLEASE post it. I'm nearly contridicting myself
with the mish-mash of knowledge I've gleaned.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Lines 52
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 52
In article 1993Apr1419090421222daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re note to Bobby M
Date Wed 14 Apr 1993 190904 GMT
In article 1993Apr1413154815938monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
In madhausnetcomcom Maddi Hausmann writes
Mark how much do you REALLY know about vegetarian diets
The problem is not some Bvitamins its balancing proteins
There is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from nonanimal
products and this is only of concern to VEGANS who eat no
meat dairy or eggs I believe it is B12 and it is the only
problem Supplements are available for vegans yes the B12
does come from animal byproducts If you are on an ovolacto
vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this is not an issue
I didnt see the original posting but
Yes I do know about vegetarian diets considering that several of my
close friends are devout vegetarians and have to take vitamin supplements
B12 was one of the ones I was thinking of it has been a long time since
I read the article I once saw talking about the special dietary needs
of vegetarians so I didnt quote full numbers Considering how nice
this place is
B12 can also come from wholegrain rice I understand Some brands here
in Australia and other places too Im sure get the B12 in the B12
tablets from wholegrain rice
Are you sure those arent an enriched type I know it is basically
rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need but I hadnt heard
of any rice having B12
Just thought Id contribute on a different issue from the norm
You should have contributed to the programming thread earlier
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
M^2
If one is a vegan a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at ie eggs
milk cheese etc after about 3 years of a vegan diet you need to start
taking B12 supplements because b12 is found only in animals Acutally our
bodies make B12 I think but our bodies use up our own B12 after 2 or 3
years
Lactooveo vegetarians like myself still get B12 through milk products
and eggs so we dont need supplements
And If anyone knows more PLEASE post it Im nearly contridicting myself
with the mishmash of knowledge Ive gleaned
Tammy
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 20
In article <C5HCBo.Joy@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike. It can
>actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than
>from the ground.
But with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to
reach more orbits than from the ground.
Also remember, that the presence of a repair/supply facility adds value
to the space around it. If you can put your satellite in an orbit where it
can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain
benefit from economies of scale.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 20
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
The biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike It can
actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than
from the ground
But with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to
reach more orbits than from the ground
Also remember that the presence of a repairsupply facility adds value
to the space around it If you can put your satellite in an orbit where it
can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain
benefit from economies of scale
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Is Keith as ignorant as he seems?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
mam@mouse.cmhnet.org (Mike McAngus) writes:
>>>No, everything wouldn't be OK, but it would be a start.
>>Now wait, if the religious organizations were no longer tax-exempt, what
>>other beef could you have? They would then have as much right to lobby
>>as would any other group.
>You asked "would everything be okay". I answered no. Everything
>encompasses more than just the tax-exempt status of religious
>organizations.
Well, if everything wouldn't be okay, then tell us what it is that
wouldn't be okay. That is, if religions were no longer tax-exempt, then
what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to
influence politics?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Is Keith as ignorant as he seems
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
mammousecmhnetorg Mike McAngus writes
No everything wouldnt be OK but it would be a start
Now wait if the religious organizations were no longer taxexempt what
other beef could you have They would then have as much right to lobby
as would any other group
You asked would everything be okay I answered no Everything
encompasses more than just the taxexempt status of religious
organizations
Well if everything wouldnt be okay then tell us what it is that
wouldnt be okay That is if religions were no longer taxexempt then
what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to
influence politics
keith
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Article-I.D.: srl03.pgf.734063192
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 22
shag@aero.org (Rob Unverzagt) writes:
>In article <5APR199318045045@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>> According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>> temporarily in orbit around Jupiter. The comet had apparently made a
>> close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>> comet. Attempts to determine the comet's orbit has been complicated by
>> the near impossibility of measuring the comet's center of mass.
>>
>Am I missing something -- what does knowing the comet's center
>of mass do for you in orbit determination?
>Shag
I'm not sure, but it almost sounds like they can't figure out where the
_nucleus_ is within the coma. If they're off by a couple hundred
miles, well, you can imagine the rest...
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
ArticleID srl03pgf734063192
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 22
shagaeroorg Rob Unverzagt writes
In article 5APR199318045045kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
temporarily in orbit around Jupiter The comet had apparently made a
close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
comet Attempts to determine the comets orbit has been complicated by
the near impossibility of measuring the comets center of mass
Am I missing something what does knowing the comets center
of mass do for you in orbit determination
Shag
Im not sure but it almost sounds like they cant figure out where the
_nucleus_ is within the coma If theyre off by a couple hundred
miles well you can imagine the rest
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat)
Subject: Shuttle Launch Question
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 16
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while. Well, I should'nt say
bothering, maybe wondering would be better. When
they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
"Clear caution & warning memory. Verify no unexpected
errors. ...". I am wondering what an "expected error" might
be. Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
inquiring minds just gotta know............
Yeah, yeah, I know, its those dumb cosmospheres again!
=============================================================
Randy Padgett, Supervisor BITNET : ETRAT@TTACS
Academic Computing Facilities Internet : ETRAT@TTACS.TTU.EDU
Texas Tech University THEnet : TTACS::ETRAT
Lubbock, TX 79409-42042 (806) 742-3653 FAX (806) 742-1755
after prepro From ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat
Subject Shuttle Launch Question
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 16
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution warning memory Verify no unexpected
errors I am wondering what an expected error might
be Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
inquiring minds just gotta know
Yeah yeah I know its those dumb cosmospheres again
Randy Padgett Supervisor BITNET ETRATTTACS
Academic Computing Facilities Internet ETRATTTACSTTUEDU
Texas Tech University THEnet TTACSETRAT
Lubbock TX 7940942042 806 7423653 FAX 806 7421755
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 17
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
mmwang@adobe.com (Michael Wang) writes:
>>Well, I have typed in the OED definitions. As you will note upon reading
>>them, a punishment, being an inanimate object, is incapable of "showing
>>mercy." So, you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one.
>Sorry, you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the
>definition (where transf. = transferred sense and fig. =
>figurative,-ly). "Things" can be cruel. Samples of text from the first
>definition include, "Because I would not see thy cruell nailes Plucke
>out his poore old eyes," and "The puniness of man in the centre of a
>cruel and frowning universe."
Sure nails can be cruel. I'd imagine nails in your eyes would be
*very* painful. But, this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel, which is what you are supposed to be trying to show.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Well I have typed in the OED definitions As you will note upon reading
them a punishment being an inanimate object is incapable of showing
mercy So you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one
Sorry you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the
definition where transf transferred sense and fig
figuratively Things can be cruel Samples of text from the first
definition include Because I would not see thy cruell nailes Plucke
out his poore old eyes and The puniness of man in the centre of a
cruel and frowning universe
Sure nails can be cruel Id imagine nails in your eyes would be
very painful But this does not imply that a painless death is
cruel which is what you are supposed to be trying to show
keith
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 10/15 - Planetary Probe History
Supersedes: <probe_730956556@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 527
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:59:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/probe
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:19 $
PLANETARY PROBES - HISTORICAL MISSIONS
This section was lightly adapted from an original posting by Larry Klaes
(klaes@verga.enet.dec.com), mostly minor formatting changes. Matthew
Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu) contributed the section on
Voyager, and the section on Sakigake was obtained from ISAS material
posted by Yoshiro Yamada (yamada@yscvax.ysc.go.jp).
US PLANETARY MISSIONS
MARINER (VENUS, MARS, & MERCURY FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)
MARINER 1, the first U.S. attempt to send a spacecraft to Venus, failed
minutes after launch in 1962. The guidance instructions from the ground
stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna, so the
onboard computer took control. However, there turned out to be a bug in
the guidance software, and the rocket promptly went off course, so the
Range Safety Officer destroyed it. Although the bug is sometimes claimed
to have been an incorrect FORTRAN DO statement, it was actually a
transcription error in which the bar (indicating smoothing) was omitted
from the expression "R-dot-bar sub n" (nth smoothed value of derivative
of radius). This error led the software to treat normal minor variations
of velocity as if they were serious, leading to incorrect compensation.
MARINER 2 became the first successful probe to flyby Venus in December
of 1962, and it returned information which confirmed that Venus is a
very hot (800 degrees Fahrenheit, now revised to 900 degrees F.) world
with a cloud-covered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide
(sulfuric acid was later confirmed in 1978).
MARINER 3, launched on November 5, 1964, was lost when its protective
shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary
space. Unable to collect the Sun's energy for power from its solar
panels, the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in
solar orbit. It was intended for a Mars flyby with MARINER 4.
MARINER 4, the sister probe to MARINER 3, did reach Mars in 1965 and
took the first close-up images of the Martian surface (22 in all) as it
flew by the planet. The probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere
much thinner than previously thought. Many scientists concluded from
this preliminary scan that Mars was a "dead" world in both the
geological and biological sense.
MARINER 5 was sent to Venus in 1967. It reconfirmed the data on that
planet collected five years earlier by MARINER 2, plus the information
that Venus' atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least 90 times
that of Earth's, or the equivalent of being 3,300 feet under the surface
of an ocean.
MARINER 6 and 7 were sent to Mars in 1969 and expanded upon the work
done by MARINER 4 four years earlier. However, they failed to take away
the concept of Mars as a "dead" planet, first made from the basic
measurements of MARINER 4.
MARINER 8 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean in 1971 when the rocket
launcher autopilot failed.
MARINER 9, the sister probe to MARINER 8, became the first craft to
orbit Mars in 1971. It returned information on the Red Planet that no
other probe had done before, revealing huge volcanoes on the Martian
surface, as well as giant canyon systems, and evidence that water once
flowed across the planet. The probe also took the first detailed closeup
images of Mars' two small moons, Phobos and Deimos.
MARINER 10 used Venus as a gravity assist to Mercury in 1974. The probe
did return the first close-up images of the Venusian atmosphere in
ultraviolet, revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover,
plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four
Earth days. MARINER 10 eventually made three flybys of Mercury from 1974
to 1975 before running out of attitude control gas. The probe revealed
Mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than
thought. This would seem to indicate that Mercury has an iron core which
makes up 75 percent of the entire planet.
PIONEER (MOON, SUN, VENUS, JUPITER, and SATURN FLYBYS AND ORBITERS)
PIONEER 1 through 3 failed to meet their main objective - to photograph
the Moon close-up - but they did reach far enough into space to provide
new information on the area between Earth and the Moon, including new
data on the Van Allen radiation belts circling Earth. All three craft
had failures with their rocket launchers. PIONEER 1 was launched on
October 11, 1958, PIONEER 2 on November 8, and PIONEER 3 on December 6.
PIONEER 4 was a Moon probe which missed the Moon and became the first
U.S. spacecraft to orbit the Sun in 1959. PIONEER 5 was originally
designed to flyby Venus, but the mission was scaled down and it instead
studied the interplanetary environment between Venus and Earth out to
36.2 million kilometers in 1960, a record until MARINER 2. PIONEER 6
through 9 were placed into solar orbit from 1965 to 1968: PIONEER 6, 7,
and 8 are still transmitting information at this time. PIONEER E (would
have been number 10) suffered a launch failure in 1969.
PIONEER 10 became the first spacecraft to flyby Jupiter in 1973. PIONEER
11 followed it in 1974, and then went on to become the first probe to
study Saturn in 1979. Both vehicles should continue to function through
1995 and are heading off into interstellar space, the first craft ever
to do so.
PIONEER Venus 1 (1978) (also known as PIONEER Venus Orbiter, or PIONEER
12) burned up in the Venusian atmosphere on October 8, 1992. PVO made
the first radar studies of the planet's surface via probe. PIONEER Venus
2 (also known as PIONEER 13) sent four small probes into the atmosphere
in December of 1978. The main spacecraft bus burned up high in the
atmosphere, while the four probes descended by parachute towards the
surface. Though none were expected to survive to the surface, the Day
probe did make it and transmitted for 67.5 minutes on the ground before
its batteries failed.
RANGER (LUNAR LANDER AND IMPACT MISSIONS)
RANGER 1 and 2 were test probes for the RANGER lunar impact series. They
were meant for high Earth orbit testing in 1961, but rocket problems
left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed.
RANGER 3, launched on January 26, 1962, was intended to land an
instrument capsule on the surface of the Moon, but problems during the
launch caused the probe to miss the Moon and head into solar orbit.
RANGER 3 did try to take some images of the Moon as it flew by, but the
camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt.
RANGER 4, launched April 23, 1962, had the same purpose as RANGER 3, but
suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside,
the first U.S. probe to reach the Moon, albeit without returning data.
RANGER 5, launched October 18, 1962 and similar to RANGER 3 and 4, lost
all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the Moon
and drifted off into solar orbit.
RANGER 6 through 9 had more modified lunar missions: They were to send
back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact
with the Moon. RANGER 6 failed this objective in 1964 when its cameras
did not operate. RANGER 7 through 9 performed well, becoming the first
U.S. lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through 1965.
LUNAR ORBITER (LUNAR SURFACE PHOTOGRAPHY)
LUNAR ORBITER 1 through 5 were designed to orbit the Moon and image
various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned APOLLO
missions of 1969-1972. The probes also contributed greatly to our
understanding of lunar surface features, particularly the lunar farside.
All five probes of the series, launched from 1966 to 1967, were
essentially successful in their missions. They were the first U.S.
probes to orbit the Moon. All LOs were eventually crashed into the lunar
surface to avoid interference with the manned APOLLO missions.
SURVEYOR (LUNAR SOFT LANDERS)
The SURVEYOR series were designed primarily to see if an APOLLO lunar
module could land on the surface of the Moon without sinking into the
soil (before this time, it was feared by some that the Moon was covered
in great layers of dust, which would not support a heavy landing
vehicle). SURVEYOR was successful in proving that the lunar surface was
strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from 1966 to 1968.
Only SURVEYOR 2 and 4 were unsuccessful missions. The rest became the
first U.S. probes to soft land on the Moon, taking thousands of images
and scooping the soil for analysis. APOLLO 12 landed 600 feet from
SURVEYOR 3 in 1969 and returned parts of the craft to Earth. SURVEYOR 7,
the last of the series, was a purely scientific mission which explored
the Tycho crater region in 1968.
VIKING (MARS ORBITERS AND LANDERS)
VIKING 1 was launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida on August 20, 1975 on
a TITAN 3E-CENTAUR D1 rocket. The probe went into Martian orbit on June
19, 1976, and the lander set down on the western slopes of Chryse
Planitia on July 20, 1976. It soon began its programmed search for
Martian micro-organisms (there is still debate as to whether the probes
found life there or not), and sent back incredible color panoramas of
its surroundings. One thing scientists learned was that Mars' sky was
pinkish in color, not dark blue as they originally thought (the sky is
pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the
thin atmosphere). The lander set down among a field of red sand and
boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image.
The VIKING 1 orbiter kept functioning until August 7, 1980, when it ran
out of attitude-control propellant. The lander was switched into a
weather-reporting mode, where it had been hoped it would keep
functioning through 1994; but after November 13, 1982, an errant command
had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until
further orders. Communication was never regained again, despite the
engineers' efforts through May of 1983.
An interesting side note: VIKING 1's lander has been designated the
Thomas A. Mutch Memorial Station in honor of the late leader of the
lander imaging team. The National Air and Space Museum in Washington,
D.C. is entrusted with the safekeeping of the Mutch Station Plaque until
it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition.
VIKING 2 was launched on September 9, 1975, and arrived in Martian orbit
on August 7, 1976. The lander touched down on September 3, 1976 in
Utopia Planitia. It accomplished essentially the same tasks as its
sister lander, with the exception that its seisometer worked, recording
one marsquake. The orbiter had a series of attitude-control gas leaks in
1978, which prompted it being shut down that July. The lander was shut
down on April 12, 1980.
The orbits of both VIKING orbiters should decay around 2025.
VOYAGER (OUTER PLANET FLYBYS)
VOYAGER 1 was launched September 5, 1977, and flew past Jupiter on March
5, 1979 and by Saturn on November 13, 1980. VOYAGER 2 was launched
August 20, 1977 (before VOYAGER 1), and flew by Jupiter on August 7,
1979, by Saturn on August 26, 1981, by Uranus on January 24, 1986, and
by Neptune on August 8, 1989. VOYAGER 2 took advantage of a rare
once-every-189-years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to
outer planet. VOYAGER 1 could, in principle, have headed towards Pluto,
but JPL opted for the sure thing of a Titan close up.
Between the two probes, our knowledge of the 4 giant planets, their
satellites, and their rings has become immense. VOYAGER 1&2 discovered
that Jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics, lightning and
aurorae. Three new satellites were discovered. Two of the major
surprises were that Jupiter has rings and that Io has active sulfurous
volcanoes, with major effects on the Jovian magnetosphere.
When the two probes reached Saturn, they discovered over 1000 ringlets
and 7 satellites, including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep
the rings stable. The weather was tame compared with Jupiter: massive
jet streams with minimal variance (a 33-year great white spot/band cycle
is known). Titan's atmosphere was smoggy. Mimas' appearance was
startling: one massive impact crater gave it the Death Star appearance.
The big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings. Braids,
kinks, and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain.
VOYAGER 2, thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts,
continued the mission to Uranus and Neptune. Uranus itself was highly
monochromatic in appearance. One oddity was that its magnetic axis was
found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational
axis, giving Uranus a peculiar magnetosphere. Icy channels were found on
Ariel, and Miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains. 10
satellites and one more ring were discovered.
In contrast to Uranus, Neptune was found to have rather active weather,
including numerous cloud features. The ring arcs turned out to be bright
patches on one ring. Two other rings, and 6 other satellites, were
discovered. Neptune's magnetic axis was also skewed. Triton had a
canteloupe appearance and geysers. (What's liquid at 38K?)
The two VOYAGERs are expected to last for about two more decades. Their
on-target journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets
beyond Pluto. Their next major scientific discovery should be the
location of the heliopause.
SOVIET PLANETARY MISSIONS
Since there have been so many Soviet probes to the Moon, Venus, and
Mars, I will highlight only the primary missions:
SOVIET LUNAR PROBES
LUNA 1 - Lunar impact attempt in 1959, missed Moon and became first
craft in solar orbit.
LUNA 2 - First craft to impact on lunar surface in 1959.
LUNA 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1959.
ZOND 3 - Took first images of lunar farside in 1965 since LUNA 3. Was
also a test for future Mars missions.
LUNA 9 - First probe to soft land on the Moon in 1966, returned images
from surface.
LUNA 10 - First probe to orbit the Moon in 1966.
LUNA 13 - Second successful Soviet lunar soft landing mission in 1966.
ZOND 5 - First successful circumlunar craft. ZOND 6 through 8
accomplished similar missions through 1970. The probes were
unmanned tests of a manned orbiting SOYUZ-type lunar vehicle.
LUNA 16 - First probe to land on Moon and return samples of lunar soil
to Earth in 1970. LUNA 20 accomplished similar mission in
1972.
LUNA 17 - Delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the Moon's
surface, LUNOKHOD 1, in 1970. A similar feat was accomplished
with LUNA 21/LUNOKHOD 2 in 1973.
LUNA 24 - Last Soviet lunar mission to date. Returned soil samples in
1976.
SOVIET VENUS PROBES
VENERA 1 - First acknowledged attempt at Venus mission. Transmissions
lost enroute in 1961.
VENERA 2 - Attempt to image Venus during flyby mission in tandem with
VENERA 3. Probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in
February of 1966. No images were returned.
VENERA 3 - Attempt to place a lander capsule on Venusian surface.
Transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe
became the first craft to impact on another planet in 1966.
VENERA 4 - First probe to successfully return data while descending
through Venusian atmosphere. Crushed by air pressure before
reaching surface in 1967. VENERA 5 and 6 mission profiles
similar in 1969.
VENERA 7 - First probe to return data from the surface of another planet
in 1970. VENERA 8 accomplished a more detailed mission in
1972.
VENERA 9 - Sent first image of Venusian surface in 1975. Was also the
first probe to orbit Venus. VENERA 10 accomplished similar
mission.
VENERA 13 - Returned first color images of Venusian surface in 1982.
VENERA 14 accomplished similar mission.
VENERA 15 - Accomplished radar mapping with VENERA 16 of sections of
planet's surface in 1983 more detailed than PVO.
VEGA 1 - Accomplished with VEGA 2 first balloon probes of Venusian
atmosphere in 1985, including two landers. Flyby buses went on
to become first spacecraft to study Comet Halley close-up in
March of 1986.
SOVIET MARS PROBES
MARS 1 - First acknowledged Mars probe in 1962. Transmissions ceased
enroute the following year.
ZOND 2 - First possible attempt to place a lander capsule on Martian
surface. Probe signals ceased enroute in 1965.
MARS 2 - First Soviet Mars probe to land - albeit crash - on Martian
surface. Orbiter section first Soviet probe to circle the Red
Planet in 1971.
MARS 3 - First successful soft landing on Martian surface, but lander
signals ceased after 90 seconds in 1971.
MARS 4 - Attempt at orbiting Mars in 1974, braking rockets failed to
fire, probe went on into solar orbit.
MARS 5 - First fully successful Soviet Mars mission, orbiting Mars in
1974. Returned images of Martian surface comparable to U.S.
probe MARINER 9.
MARS 6 - Landing attempt in 1974. Lander crashed into the surface.
MARS 7 - Lander missed Mars completely in 1974, went into a solar orbit
with its flyby bus.
PHOBOS 1 - First attempt to land probes on surface of Mars' largest
moon, Phobos. Probe failed enroute in 1988 due to
human/computer error.
PHOBOS 2 - Attempt to land probes on Martian moon Phobos. The probe did
enter Mars orbit in early 1989, but signals ceased one week
before scheduled Phobos landing.
While there has been talk of Soviet Jupiter, Saturn, and even
interstellar probes within the next thirty years, no major steps have
yet been taken with these projects. More intensive studies of the Moon,
Mars, Venus, and various comets have been planned for the 1990s, and a
Mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been
planned for 2003. How the many changes in the former Soviet Union (now
the Commonwealth of Independent States) will affect the future of their
space program remains to be seen.
JAPANESE PLANETARY MISSIONS
SAKIGAKE (MS-T5) was launched from the Kagoshima Space Center by ISAS on
January 8 1985, and approached Halley's Comet within about 7 million km
on March 11, 1986. The spacecraft is carrying three instru- ments to
measure interplanetary magnetic field/plasma waves/solar wind, all of
which work normally now, so ISAS made an Earth swingby by Sakigake on
January 8, 1992 into an orbit similar to the earth's. The closest
approach was at 23h08m47s (JST=UTC+9h) on January 8, 1992. The
geocentric distance was 88,997 km. This is the first planet-swingby for
a Japanese spacecraft.
During the approach, Sakigake observed the geotail. Some geotail
passages will be scheduled in some years hence. The second Earth-swingby
will be on June 14, 1993 (at 40 Re (Earth's radius)), and the third
October 28, 1994 (at 86 Re).
HITEN, a small lunar probe, was launched into Earth orbit on January 24,
1990. The spacecraft was then known as MUSES-A, but was renamed to Hiten
once in orbit. The 430 lb probe looped out from Earth and made its first
lunary flyby on March 19, where it dropped off its 26 lb midget
satellite, HAGOROMO. Japan at this point became the third nation to
orbit a satellite around the Moon, joining the Unites States and USSR.
The smaller spacecraft, Hagoromo, remained in orbit around the Moon. An
apparently broken transistor radio caused the Japanese space scientists
to lose track of it. Hagoromo's rocket motor fired on schedule on March
19, but the spacecraft's tracking transmitter failed immediately. The
rocket firing of Hagoromo was optically confirmed using the Schmidt
camera (105-cm, F3.1) at the Kiso Observatory in Japan.
Hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and
performed aerobraking experiments using the Earth's atmosphere. Hiten
made a close approach to the moon at 22:33 JST (UTC+9h) on February 15,
1992 at the height of 423 km from the moon's surface (35.3N, 9.7E) and
fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into
lunar orbit. The following is the orbital calculation results after the
approach:
Apoapsis Altitude: about 49,400 km
Periapsis Altitude: about 9,600 km
Inclination : 34.7 deg (to ecliptic plane)
Period : 4.7 days
PLANETARY MISSION REFERENCES
I also recommend reading the following works, categorized in three
groups: General overviews, specific books on particular space missions,
and periodical sources on space probes. This list is by no means
complete; it is primarily designed to give you places to start your
research through generally available works on the subject. If anyone can
add pertinent works to the list, it would be greatly appreciated.
Though naturally I recommend all the books listed below, I think it
would be best if you started out with the general overview books, in
order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in
this area. I also recommend that you pick up some good, up-to-date
general works on astronomy and the Sol system, to give you some extra
background. Most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good
public and university library. Some of the more recently published works
can also be purchased in and/or ordered through any good mass- market
bookstore.
General Overviews (in alphabetical order by author):
J. Kelly Beatty et al, THE NEW SOLAR SYSTEM, 1990.
Merton E. Davies and Bruce C. Murray, THE VIEW FROM SPACE:
PHOTOGRAPHIC EXPLORATION OF THE PLANETS, 1971
Kenneth Gatland, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE
TECHNOLOGY, 1990
Kenneth Gatland, ROBOT EXPLORERS, 1972
R. Greeley, PLANETARY LANDSCAPES, 1987
Douglas Hart, THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT, 1987
Nicholas L. Johnson, HANDBOOK OF SOVIET LUNAR AND PLANETARY
EXPLORATION, 1979
Clayton R. Koppes, JPL AND THE AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAM: A
HISTORY OF THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY, 1982
Richard S. Lewis, THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE
UNIVERSE, 1983
Mark Littman, PLANETS BEYOND: DISCOVERING THE OUTER SOLAR
SYSTEM, 1988
Eugene F. Mallove and Gregory L. Matloff, THE STARFLIGHT
HANDBOOK: A PIONEER'S GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL, 1989
Frank Miles and Nicholas Booth, RACE TO MARS: THE MARS
FLIGHT ATLAS, 1988
Bruce Murray, JOURNEY INTO SPACE, 1989
Oran W. Nicks, FAR TRAVELERS, 1985 (NASA SP-480)
James E. Oberg, UNCOVERING SOVIET DISASTERS: EXPLORING THE
LIMITS OF GLASNOST, 1988
Carl Sagan, COMET, 1986
Carl Sagan, THE COSMIC CONNECTION, 1973
Carl Sagan, PLANETS, 1969 (LIFE Science Library)
Arthur Smith, PLANETARY EXPLORATION: THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
SPACE PROBES, 1988
Andrew Wilson, (JANE'S) SOLAR SYSTEM LOG, 1987
Specific Mission References:
Charles A. Cross and Patrick Moore, THE ATLAS OF MERCURY, 1977
(The MARINER 10 mission to Venus and Mercury, 1973-1975)
Joel Davis, FLYBY: THE INTERPLANETARY ODYSSEY OF VOYAGER 2, 1987
Irl Newlan, FIRST TO VENUS: THE STORY OF MARINER 2, 1963
Margaret Poynter and Arthur L. Lane, VOYAGER: THE STORY OF A
SPACE MISSION, 1984
Carl Sagan, MURMURS OF EARTH, 1978 (Deals with the Earth
information records placed on VOYAGER 1 and 2 in case the
probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space,
as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives
themselves.)
Other works and periodicals:
NASA has published very detailed and technical books on every space
probe mission it has launched. Good university libraries will carry
these books, and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission
you wish to read about. I recommend these works after you first study
some of the books listed above.
Some periodicals I recommend for reading on space probes are NATIONAL
GEOGRAPHIC, which has written articles on the PIONEER probes to Earth's
Moon Luna and the Jovian planets Jupiter and Saturn, the RANGER,
SURVEYOR, LUNAR ORBITER, and APOLLO missions to Luna, the MARINER
missions to Mercury, Venus, and Mars, the VIKING probes to Mars, and the
VOYAGER missions to Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.
More details on American, Soviet, European, and Japanese probe missions
can be found in SKY AND TELESCOPE, ASTRONOMY, SCIENCE, NATURE, and
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazines. TIME, NEWSWEEK, and various major
newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions,
but also show you what else was going on with Earth at the time events
were unfolding, if that is of interest to you. Space missions are
affected by numerous political, economic, and climatic factors, as you
probably know.
Depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go, you
might also wish to join The Planetary Society, one of the largest space
groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration. Their
periodical, THE PLANETARY REPORT, details the latest space probe
missions. Write to The Planetary Society, 65 North Catalina Avenue,
Pasadena, California 91106 USA.
Good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration. I
personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas
in this field, and the benefits human society has and will receive from
it are incredible, with many yet to be realized.
Larry Klaes klaes@verga.enet.dec.com
NEXT: FAQ #11/15 - Upcoming planetary probes - missions and schedules
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1015 Planetary Probe History
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 527
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195936 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spaceprobe
Lastmodified Date 930401 143919
PLANETARY PROBES HISTORICAL MISSIONS
This section was lightly adapted from an original posting by Larry Klaes
klaesvergaenetdeccom mostly minor formatting changes Matthew
Wiener weembalibrawistarupennedu contributed the section on
Voyager and the section on Sakigake was obtained from ISAS material
posted by Yoshiro Yamada yamadayscvaxyscgojp
US PLANETARY MISSIONS
MARINER VENUS MARS MERCURY FLYBYS AND ORBITERS
MARINER 1 the first US attempt to send a spacecraft to Venus failed
minutes after launch in 1962 The guidance instructions from the ground
stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna so the
onboard computer took control However there turned out to be a bug in
the guidance software and the rocket promptly went off course so the
Range Safety Officer destroyed it Although the bug is sometimes claimed
to have been an incorrect FORTRAN DO statement it was actually a
transcription error in which the bar indicating smoothing was omitted
from the expression Rdotbar sub n nth smoothed value of derivative
of radius This error led the software to treat normal minor variations
of velocity as if they were serious leading to incorrect compensation
MARINER 2 became the first successful probe to flyby Venus in December
of 1962 and it returned information which confirmed that Venus is a
very hot 800 degrees Fahrenheit now revised to 900 degrees F world
with a cloudcovered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide
sulfuric acid was later confirmed in 1978
MARINER 3 launched on November 5 1964 was lost when its protective
shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary
space Unable to collect the Suns energy for power from its solar
panels the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in
solar orbit It was intended for a Mars flyby with MARINER 4
MARINER 4 the sister probe to MARINER 3 did reach Mars in 1965 and
took the first closeup images of the Martian surface 22 in all as it
flew by the planet The probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere
much thinner than previously thought Many scientists concluded from
this preliminary scan that Mars was a dead world in both the
geological and biological sense
MARINER 5 was sent to Venus in 1967 It reconfirmed the data on that
planet collected five years earlier by MARINER 2 plus the information
that Venus atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least 90 times
that of Earths or the equivalent of being 3300 feet under the surface
of an ocean
MARINER 6 and 7 were sent to Mars in 1969 and expanded upon the work
done by MARINER 4 four years earlier However they failed to take away
the concept of Mars as a dead planet first made from the basic
measurements of MARINER 4
MARINER 8 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean in 1971 when the rocket
launcher autopilot failed
MARINER 9 the sister probe to MARINER 8 became the first craft to
orbit Mars in 1971 It returned information on the Red Planet that no
other probe had done before revealing huge volcanoes on the Martian
surface as well as giant canyon systems and evidence that water once
flowed across the planet The probe also took the first detailed closeup
images of Mars two small moons Phobos and Deimos
MARINER 10 used Venus as a gravity assist to Mercury in 1974 The probe
did return the first closeup images of the Venusian atmosphere in
ultraviolet revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover
plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four
Earth days MARINER 10 eventually made three flybys of Mercury from 1974
to 1975 before running out of attitude control gas The probe revealed
Mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than
thought This would seem to indicate that Mercury has an iron core which
makes up 75 percent of the entire planet
PIONEER MOON SUN VENUS JUPITER and SATURN FLYBYS AND ORBITERS
PIONEER 1 through 3 failed to meet their main objective to photograph
the Moon closeup but they did reach far enough into space to provide
new information on the area between Earth and the Moon including new
data on the Van Allen radiation belts circling Earth All three craft
had failures with their rocket launchers PIONEER 1 was launched on
October 11 1958 PIONEER 2 on November 8 and PIONEER 3 on December 6
PIONEER 4 was a Moon probe which missed the Moon and became the first
US spacecraft to orbit the Sun in 1959 PIONEER 5 was originally
designed to flyby Venus but the mission was scaled down and it instead
studied the interplanetary environment between Venus and Earth out to
362 million kilometers in 1960 a record until MARINER 2 PIONEER 6
through 9 were placed into solar orbit from 1965 to 1968 PIONEER 6 7
and 8 are still transmitting information at this time PIONEER E would
have been number 10 suffered a launch failure in 1969
PIONEER 10 became the first spacecraft to flyby Jupiter in 1973 PIONEER
11 followed it in 1974 and then went on to become the first probe to
study Saturn in 1979 Both vehicles should continue to function through
1995 and are heading off into interstellar space the first craft ever
to do so
PIONEER Venus 1 1978 also known as PIONEER Venus Orbiter or PIONEER
12 burned up in the Venusian atmosphere on October 8 1992 PVO made
the first radar studies of the planets surface via probe PIONEER Venus
2 also known as PIONEER 13 sent four small probes into the atmosphere
in December of 1978 The main spacecraft bus burned up high in the
atmosphere while the four probes descended by parachute towards the
surface Though none were expected to survive to the surface the Day
probe did make it and transmitted for 675 minutes on the ground before
its batteries failed
RANGER LUNAR LANDER AND IMPACT MISSIONS
RANGER 1 and 2 were test probes for the RANGER lunar impact series They
were meant for high Earth orbit testing in 1961 but rocket problems
left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed
RANGER 3 launched on January 26 1962 was intended to land an
instrument capsule on the surface of the Moon but problems during the
launch caused the probe to miss the Moon and head into solar orbit
RANGER 3 did try to take some images of the Moon as it flew by but the
camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt
RANGER 4 launched April 23 1962 had the same purpose as RANGER 3 but
suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside
the first US probe to reach the Moon albeit without returning data
RANGER 5 launched October 18 1962 and similar to RANGER 3 and 4 lost
all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the Moon
and drifted off into solar orbit
RANGER 6 through 9 had more modified lunar missions They were to send
back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact
with the Moon RANGER 6 failed this objective in 1964 when its cameras
did not operate RANGER 7 through 9 performed well becoming the first
US lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through 1965
LUNAR ORBITER LUNAR SURFACE PHOTOGRAPHY
LUNAR ORBITER 1 through 5 were designed to orbit the Moon and image
various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned APOLLO
missions of 19691972 The probes also contributed greatly to our
understanding of lunar surface features particularly the lunar farside
All five probes of the series launched from 1966 to 1967 were
essentially successful in their missions They were the first US
probes to orbit the Moon All LOs were eventually crashed into the lunar
surface to avoid interference with the manned APOLLO missions
SURVEYOR LUNAR SOFT LANDERS
The SURVEYOR series were designed primarily to see if an APOLLO lunar
module could land on the surface of the Moon without sinking into the
soil before this time it was feared by some that the Moon was covered
in great layers of dust which would not support a heavy landing
vehicle SURVEYOR was successful in proving that the lunar surface was
strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from 1966 to 1968
Only SURVEYOR 2 and 4 were unsuccessful missions The rest became the
first US probes to soft land on the Moon taking thousands of images
and scooping the soil for analysis APOLLO 12 landed 600 feet from
SURVEYOR 3 in 1969 and returned parts of the craft to Earth SURVEYOR 7
the last of the series was a purely scientific mission which explored
the Tycho crater region in 1968
VIKING MARS ORBITERS AND LANDERS
VIKING 1 was launched from Cape Canaveral Florida on August 20 1975 on
a TITAN 3ECENTAUR D1 rocket The probe went into Martian orbit on June
19 1976 and the lander set down on the western slopes of Chryse
Planitia on July 20 1976 It soon began its programmed search for
Martian microorganisms there is still debate as to whether the probes
found life there or not and sent back incredible color panoramas of
its surroundings One thing scientists learned was that Mars sky was
pinkish in color not dark blue as they originally thought the sky is
pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the
thin atmosphere The lander set down among a field of red sand and
boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image
The VIKING 1 orbiter kept functioning until August 7 1980 when it ran
out of attitudecontrol propellant The lander was switched into a
weatherreporting mode where it had been hoped it would keep
functioning through 1994 but after November 13 1982 an errant command
had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until
further orders Communication was never regained again despite the
engineers efforts through May of 1983
An interesting side note VIKING 1s lander has been designated the
Thomas A Mutch Memorial Station in honor of the late leader of the
lander imaging team The National Air and Space Museum in Washington
DC is entrusted with the safekeeping of the Mutch Station Plaque until
it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition
VIKING 2 was launched on September 9 1975 and arrived in Martian orbit
on August 7 1976 The lander touched down on September 3 1976 in
Utopia Planitia It accomplished essentially the same tasks as its
sister lander with the exception that its seisometer worked recording
one marsquake The orbiter had a series of attitudecontrol gas leaks in
1978 which prompted it being shut down that July The lander was shut
down on April 12 1980
The orbits of both VIKING orbiters should decay around 2025
VOYAGER OUTER PLANET FLYBYS
VOYAGER 1 was launched September 5 1977 and flew past Jupiter on March
5 1979 and by Saturn on November 13 1980 VOYAGER 2 was launched
August 20 1977 before VOYAGER 1 and flew by Jupiter on August 7
1979 by Saturn on August 26 1981 by Uranus on January 24 1986 and
by Neptune on August 8 1989 VOYAGER 2 took advantage of a rare
onceevery189years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to
outer planet VOYAGER 1 could in principle have headed towards Pluto
but JPL opted for the sure thing of a Titan close up
Between the two probes our knowledge of the 4 giant planets their
satellites and their rings has become immense VOYAGER 12 discovered
that Jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics lightning and
aurorae Three new satellites were discovered Two of the major
surprises were that Jupiter has rings and that Io has active sulfurous
volcanoes with major effects on the Jovian magnetosphere
When the two probes reached Saturn they discovered over 1000 ringlets
and 7 satellites including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep
the rings stable The weather was tame compared with Jupiter massive
jet streams with minimal variance a 33year great white spotband cycle
is known Titans atmosphere was smoggy Mimas appearance was
startling one massive impact crater gave it the Death Star appearance
The big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings Braids
kinks and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain
VOYAGER 2 thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts
continued the mission to Uranus and Neptune Uranus itself was highly
monochromatic in appearance One oddity was that its magnetic axis was
found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational
axis giving Uranus a peculiar magnetosphere Icy channels were found on
Ariel and Miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains 10
satellites and one more ring were discovered
In contrast to Uranus Neptune was found to have rather active weather
including numerous cloud features The ring arcs turned out to be bright
patches on one ring Two other rings and 6 other satellites were
discovered Neptunes magnetic axis was also skewed Triton had a
canteloupe appearance and geysers Whats liquid at 38K
The two VOYAGERs are expected to last for about two more decades Their
ontarget journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets
beyond Pluto Their next major scientific discovery should be the
location of the heliopause
SOVIET PLANETARY MISSIONS
Since there have been so many Soviet probes to the Moon Venus and
Mars I will highlight only the primary missions
SOVIET LUNAR PROBES
LUNA 1 Lunar impact attempt in 1959 missed Moon and became first
craft in solar orbit
LUNA 2 First craft to impact on lunar surface in 1959
LUNA 3 Took first images of lunar farside in 1959
ZOND 3 Took first images of lunar farside in 1965 since LUNA 3 Was
also a test for future Mars missions
LUNA 9 First probe to soft land on the Moon in 1966 returned images
from surface
LUNA 10 First probe to orbit the Moon in 1966
LUNA 13 Second successful Soviet lunar soft landing mission in 1966
ZOND 5 First successful circumlunar craft ZOND 6 through 8
accomplished similar missions through 1970 The probes were
unmanned tests of a manned orbiting SOYUZtype lunar vehicle
LUNA 16 First probe to land on Moon and return samples of lunar soil
to Earth in 1970 LUNA 20 accomplished similar mission in
1972
LUNA 17 Delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the Moons
surface LUNOKHOD 1 in 1970 A similar feat was accomplished
with LUNA 21LUNOKHOD 2 in 1973
LUNA 24 Last Soviet lunar mission to date Returned soil samples in
1976
SOVIET VENUS PROBES
VENERA 1 First acknowledged attempt at Venus mission Transmissions
lost enroute in 1961
VENERA 2 Attempt to image Venus during flyby mission in tandem with
VENERA 3 Probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in
February of 1966 No images were returned
VENERA 3 Attempt to place a lander capsule on Venusian surface
Transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe
became the first craft to impact on another planet in 1966
VENERA 4 First probe to successfully return data while descending
through Venusian atmosphere Crushed by air pressure before
reaching surface in 1967 VENERA 5 and 6 mission profiles
similar in 1969
VENERA 7 First probe to return data from the surface of another planet
in 1970 VENERA 8 accomplished a more detailed mission in
1972
VENERA 9 Sent first image of Venusian surface in 1975 Was also the
first probe to orbit Venus VENERA 10 accomplished similar
mission
VENERA 13 Returned first color images of Venusian surface in 1982
VENERA 14 accomplished similar mission
VENERA 15 Accomplished radar mapping with VENERA 16 of sections of
planets surface in 1983 more detailed than PVO
VEGA 1 Accomplished with VEGA 2 first balloon probes of Venusian
atmosphere in 1985 including two landers Flyby buses went on
to become first spacecraft to study Comet Halley closeup in
March of 1986
SOVIET MARS PROBES
MARS 1 First acknowledged Mars probe in 1962 Transmissions ceased
enroute the following year
ZOND 2 First possible attempt to place a lander capsule on Martian
surface Probe signals ceased enroute in 1965
MARS 2 First Soviet Mars probe to land albeit crash on Martian
surface Orbiter section first Soviet probe to circle the Red
Planet in 1971
MARS 3 First successful soft landing on Martian surface but lander
signals ceased after 90 seconds in 1971
MARS 4 Attempt at orbiting Mars in 1974 braking rockets failed to
fire probe went on into solar orbit
MARS 5 First fully successful Soviet Mars mission orbiting Mars in
1974 Returned images of Martian surface comparable to US
probe MARINER 9
MARS 6 Landing attempt in 1974 Lander crashed into the surface
MARS 7 Lander missed Mars completely in 1974 went into a solar orbit
with its flyby bus
PHOBOS 1 First attempt to land probes on surface of Mars largest
moon Phobos Probe failed enroute in 1988 due to
humancomputer error
PHOBOS 2 Attempt to land probes on Martian moon Phobos The probe did
enter Mars orbit in early 1989 but signals ceased one week
before scheduled Phobos landing
While there has been talk of Soviet Jupiter Saturn and even
interstellar probes within the next thirty years no major steps have
yet been taken with these projects More intensive studies of the Moon
Mars Venus and various comets have been planned for the 1990s and a
Mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been
planned for 2003 How the many changes in the former Soviet Union now
the Commonwealth of Independent States will affect the future of their
space program remains to be seen
JAPANESE PLANETARY MISSIONS
SAKIGAKE MST5 was launched from the Kagoshima Space Center by ISAS on
January 8 1985 and approached Halleys Comet within about 7 million km
on March 11 1986 The spacecraft is carrying three instru ments to
measure interplanetary magnetic fieldplasma wavessolar wind all of
which work normally now so ISAS made an Earth swingby by Sakigake on
January 8 1992 into an orbit similar to the earths The closest
approach was at 23h08m47s JSTUTC9h on January 8 1992 The
geocentric distance was 88997 km This is the first planetswingby for
a Japanese spacecraft
During the approach Sakigake observed the geotail Some geotail
passages will be scheduled in some years hence The second Earthswingby
will be on June 14 1993 at 40 Re Earths radius and the third
October 28 1994 at 86 Re
HITEN a small lunar probe was launched into Earth orbit on January 24
1990 The spacecraft was then known as MUSESA but was renamed to Hiten
once in orbit The 430 lb probe looped out from Earth and made its first
lunary flyby on March 19 where it dropped off its 26 lb midget
satellite HAGOROMO Japan at this point became the third nation to
orbit a satellite around the Moon joining the Unites States and USSR
The smaller spacecraft Hagoromo remained in orbit around the Moon An
apparently broken transistor radio caused the Japanese space scientists
to lose track of it Hagoromos rocket motor fired on schedule on March
19 but the spacecrafts tracking transmitter failed immediately The
rocket firing of Hagoromo was optically confirmed using the Schmidt
camera 105cm F31 at the Kiso Observatory in Japan
Hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and
performed aerobraking experiments using the Earths atmosphere Hiten
made a close approach to the moon at 2233 JST UTC9h on February 15
1992 at the height of 423 km from the moons surface 353N 97E and
fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into
lunar orbit The following is the orbital calculation results after the
approach
Apoapsis Altitude about 49400 km
Periapsis Altitude about 9600 km
Inclination 347 deg to ecliptic plane
Period 47 days
PLANETARY MISSION REFERENCES
I also recommend reading the following works categorized in three
groups General overviews specific books on particular space missions
and periodical sources on space probes This list is by no means
complete it is primarily designed to give you places to start your
research through generally available works on the subject If anyone can
add pertinent works to the list it would be greatly appreciated
Though naturally I recommend all the books listed below I think it
would be best if you started out with the general overview books in
order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in
this area I also recommend that you pick up some good uptodate
general works on astronomy and the Sol system to give you some extra
background Most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good
public and university library Some of the more recently published works
can also be purchased in andor ordered through any good mass market
bookstore
General Overviews in alphabetical order by author
J Kelly Beatty et al THE NEW SOLAR SYSTEM 1990
Merton E Davies and Bruce C Murray THE VIEW FROM SPACE
PHOTOGRAPHIC EXPLORATION OF THE PLANETS 1971
Kenneth Gatland THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SPACE
TECHNOLOGY 1990
Kenneth Gatland ROBOT EXPLORERS 1972
R Greeley PLANETARY LANDSCAPES 1987
Douglas Hart THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SOVIET SPACECRAFT 1987
Nicholas L Johnson HANDBOOK OF SOVIET LUNAR AND PLANETARY
EXPLORATION 1979
Clayton R Koppes JPL AND THE AMERICAN SPACE PROGRAM A
HISTORY OF THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY 1982
Richard S Lewis THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE
UNIVERSE 1983
Mark Littman PLANETS BEYOND DISCOVERING THE OUTER SOLAR
SYSTEM 1988
Eugene F Mallove and Gregory L Matloff THE STARFLIGHT
HANDBOOK A PIONEERS GUIDE TO INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL 1989
Frank Miles and Nicholas Booth RACE TO MARS THE MARS
FLIGHT ATLAS 1988
Bruce Murray JOURNEY INTO SPACE 1989
Oran W Nicks FAR TRAVELERS 1985 NASA SP480
James E Oberg UNCOVERING SOVIET DISASTERS EXPLORING THE
LIMITS OF GLASNOST 1988
Carl Sagan COMET 1986
Carl Sagan THE COSMIC CONNECTION 1973
Carl Sagan PLANETS 1969 LIFE Science Library
Arthur Smith PLANETARY EXPLORATION THIRTY YEARS OF UNMANNED
SPACE PROBES 1988
Andrew Wilson JANES SOLAR SYSTEM LOG 1987
Specific Mission References
Charles A Cross and Patrick Moore THE ATLAS OF MERCURY 1977
The MARINER 10 mission to Venus and Mercury 19731975
Joel Davis FLYBY THE INTERPLANETARY ODYSSEY OF VOYAGER 2 1987
Irl Newlan FIRST TO VENUS THE STORY OF MARINER 2 1963
Margaret Poynter and Arthur L Lane VOYAGER THE STORY OF A
SPACE MISSION 1984
Carl Sagan MURMURS OF EARTH 1978 Deals with the Earth
information records placed on VOYAGER 1 and 2 in case the
probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space
as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives
themselves
Other works and periodicals
NASA has published very detailed and technical books on every space
probe mission it has launched Good university libraries will carry
these books and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission
you wish to read about I recommend these works after you first study
some of the books listed above
Some periodicals I recommend for reading on space probes are NATIONAL
GEOGRAPHIC which has written articles on the PIONEER probes to Earths
Moon Luna and the Jovian planets Jupiter and Saturn the RANGER
SURVEYOR LUNAR ORBITER and APOLLO missions to Luna the MARINER
missions to Mercury Venus and Mars the VIKING probes to Mars and the
VOYAGER missions to Jupiter Saturn Uranus and Neptune
More details on American Soviet European and Japanese probe missions
can be found in SKY AND TELESCOPE ASTRONOMY SCIENCE NATURE and
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazines TIME NEWSWEEK and various major
newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions
but also show you what else was going on with Earth at the time events
were unfolding if that is of interest to you Space missions are
affected by numerous political economic and climatic factors as you
probably know
Depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go you
might also wish to join The Planetary Society one of the largest space
groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration Their
periodical THE PLANETARY REPORT details the latest space probe
missions Write to The Planetary Society 65 North Catalina Avenue
Pasadena California 91106 USA
Good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration I
personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas
in this field and the benefits human society has and will receive from
it are incredible with many yet to be realized
Larry Klaes klaesvergaenetdeccom
NEXT FAQ 1115 Upcoming planetary probes missions and schedules
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 30
Robert Singleton (bobs@thnext.mit.edu) wrote:
: > Sure it isn't mutually exclusive, but it lends weight to (i.e. increases
: > notional running estimates of the posterior probability of) the
: > atheist's pitch in the partition, and thus necessarily reduces the same
: > quantity in the theist's pitch. This is because the `divine component'
: > falls prey to Ockham's Razor, the phenomenon being satisfactorily
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > explained without it, and there being no independent evidence of any
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > such component. More detail in the next post.
: >
Occam's Razor is not a law of nature, it is way of analyzing an
argument, even so, it interesting how often it's cited here and to
what end.
It seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being
primitive, simple-minded and unscientific, anti-intellectual and
childish, and yet again condemned as being too complex (Occam's
razor), the scientific explanation of things being much more
straightforeward and, apparently, simpler. Which is it to be - which
is the "non-essential", and how do you know?
Considering that even scientists don't fully comprehend science due to
its complexity and diversity. Maybe William of Occam has performed a
lobotomy, kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away ...
This is all very confusing, I'm sure one of you will straighten me out
tough.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 30
Robert Singleton bobsthnextmitedu wrote
Sure it isnt mutually exclusive but it lends weight to ie increases
notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the
atheists pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same
quantity in the theists pitch This is because the `divine component
falls prey to Ockhams Razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
such component More detail in the next post
Occams Razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an
argument even so it interesting how often its cited here and to
what end
It seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being
primitive simpleminded and unscientific antiintellectual and
childish and yet again condemned as being too complex Occams
razor the scientific explanation of things being much more
straightforeward and apparently simpler Which is it to be which
is the nonessential and how do you know
Considering that even scientists dont fully comprehend science due to
its complexity and diversity Maybe William of Occam has performed a
lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away
This is all very confusing Im sure one of you will straighten me out
tough
Bill
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <930404.112127.2h6.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> > And we, meaning people who drive,
|> > accept the risks of doing so, and contribute tax money to design systems
|> > to minimize those risks.
|>
|> Eh? We already have systems to minimize those risks. It's just that you car
|> drivers don't want to use them.
|>
|> They're called bicycles, trains and buses.
Poor Matthew. A million posters to call "you car drivers" and he
chooses me, a non car owner.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re mathewmantiscouk mathew writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
And we meaning people who drive
accept the risks of doing so and contribute tax money to design systems
to minimize those risks
Eh We already have systems to minimize those risks Its just that you car
drivers dont want to use them
Theyre called bicycles trains and buses
Poor Matthew A million posters to call you car drivers and he
chooses me a non car owner
jon
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: getting to the point!
Lines: 12
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 12
To all a.a readers:
I have been asked be several of you to post a list of the SDA Church's
27 Fundamental beliefs. I warn you now, it's a long list. However, I'll
post it on Sunday. Sabbath is coming up soon so I won't be reading on
Saturday. And I don't have time to do it now.
I would GREATLY appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with what's
going on.
I hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend. I hope it's
the best one so far!!
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject getting to the point
Lines 12
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 12
To all aa readers
I have been asked be several of you to post a list of the SDA Churchs
27 Fundamental beliefs I warn you now its a long list However Ill
post it on Sunday Sabbath is coming up soon so I wont be reading on
Saturday And I dont have time to do it now
I would GREATLY appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with whats
going on
I hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend I hope its
the best one so far
Tammy
preprocess doc Subject: A word of advice
From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Summary: was Re: Yeah, Right
Lines: 14
In article <65882@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>
>I've said enough times that there is no "alternative" that should think you
>might have caught on by now. And there is no "alternative", but the point
>is, "rationality" isn't an alternative either. The problems of metaphysical
>and religious knowledge are unsolvable-- or I should say, humans cannot
>solve them.
How does that saying go: Those who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt
those who are doing it.
Jim
--
Have you washed your brain today?
after prepro Subject A word of advice
From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Organization Nyx Public Access Unix at U of Denver MathCS dept
Summary was Re Yeah Right
Lines 14
In article 65882mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Ive said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you
might have caught on by now And there is no alternative but the point
is rationality isnt an alternative either The problems of metaphysical
and religious knowledge are unsolvable or I should say humans cannot
solve them
How does that saying go Those who say it cant be done shouldnt interrupt
those who are doing it
Jim
Have you washed your brain today
preprocess doc From: enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori)
Subject: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Lines: 38
From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
........
WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future. Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets. Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie. Now, Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
orbit. NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
..........
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
Is NASA really supporting this junk?
Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
Really, really depressed.
Enzo
--
Vincenzo Liguori | enzo@research.canon.oz.au
Canon Information Systems Research Australia | Phone +61 2 805 2983
PO Box 313 NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 | Fax +61 2 805 2929
after prepro From enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori
Subject Vandalizing the sky
Organization Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Lines 38
From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
Is NASA really supporting this junk
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Really really depressed
Enzo
Vincenzo Liguori enzoresearchcanonozau
Canon Information Systems Research Australia Phone 61 2 805 2983
PO Box 313 NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Fax 61 2 805 2929
preprocess doc From: JDB1145@tamvm1.tamu.edu
Subject: Re: A Little Too Satanic
Organization: Texas A&M University
Lines: 21
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamvm1.tamu.edu
In article <65934@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>
>Nanci Ann Miller writes:
>
]The "corrupted over and over" theory is pretty weak. Comparison of the
]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia. This
]shouldn't be all that suprising; people who believe in a text in this manner
]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies.
Tell it to King James, mate.
]C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
] + but strife closed in the sod.
]mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
]tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
John Burke, jdb1145@summa.tamu.edu
after prepro From JDB1145tamvm1tamuedu
Subject Re A Little Too Satanic
Organization Texas AM University
Lines 21
NNTPPostingHost tamvm1tamuedu
In article 65934mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Nanci Ann Miller writes
]The corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak Comparison of the
]current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text
]has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia This
]shouldnt be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner
]are likely to makes some pains to make good copies
Tell it to King James mate
]C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
] but strife closed in the sod
]mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
]tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
John Burke jdb1145summatamuedu
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative
posting.
The question i have about the proton, is could it be handled at
one of KSC's spare pads, without major malfunction, or could it be
handled at kourou or Vandenberg?
Now if it uses storables, then how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york?
If Proton were launched from a western site, how would it compare to the
T4/centaur? As i see it, it should lift very close to the T4.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative
posting
The question i have about the proton is could it be handled at
one of KSCs spare pads without major malfunction or could it be
handled at kourou or Vandenberg
Now if it uses storables then how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york
If Proton were launched from a western site how would it compare to the
T4centaur As i see it it should lift very close to the T4
pat
preprocess doc From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 100
In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
That's okay: it's what all the rest of them who come on here say...
> makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
> lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
> writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
> in the process he became a Christian himself.
This isn't the guy who was a lawyer was he? Could you give more info on this
guy (never mind- I'm sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post, and
it will appear there)
> The arguements he uses I am summing up. The book is about whether
> Jesus was God or not. I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a
> different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
> others have to say.
This is true. Make sure it is true for ALL cases.
> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
Why not both? ;)
> modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
> die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar?
Why not die for a lie? If you were poverty stricken and alunatic, sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me. As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not, not necessarily.
Even if he died for what he believed in, this still makes him completely
selfish. Like us all. So what's the difference.
People
> gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
> someone who was or had been healed. Call me a fool, but I believe he did
> heal people.
There is no historical proof of this (see earlier threads). Besides, he (or at
least his name), have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave.
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
> to someone who was crazy.
SIEG HEIL!!
>Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
> anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
> this right away.
>
Who is David Koresh? I am curious.
Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
> real thing.
How does this follow? Your definition of lunatic (and "disproof" thereof seem
rather... uhhh.. SHAKY)
> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
> the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
> and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
> write I will use it.
Good idea.
> I don't think most people understand what a Christian is. It
> is certainly not what I see a lot in churches.
Naturally, those or not TRUE Christians, right? ;)
> Rather I think it
> should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's
> sake. He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
> same. Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives
> over to him. That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a
> real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. But
> just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes
> time. We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.
> It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in
> a while. We box everything into time units. Such as work at this
> time, sports, Tv, social life. God is above these boxes and should be
> carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
> ourselves.
Someone else handle this, I don't know if it's worth it... *sigh*
********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper "Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
* who thought themselves good simply because *
* acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." *
********************************************************************************
after prepro From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Macalester College
Lines 100
In article bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
Thats okay its what all the rest of them who come on here say
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
This isnt the guy who was a lawyer was he Could you give more info on this
guy never mind Im sure there will be PLENTY of responses to this post and
it will appear there
The arguements he uses I am summing up The book is about whether
Jesus was God or not I know many of you dont believe but listen to a
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
others have to say
This is true Make sure it is true for ALL cases
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
Why not both
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar
Why not die for a lie If you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds
perfecetly reasoable to me As to whether the societal dregs he had for
followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not not necessarily
Even if he died for what he believed in this still makes him completely
selfish Like us all So whats the difference
People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed Call me a fool but I believe he did
heal people
There is no historical proof of this see earlier threads Besides he or at
least his name have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever
healing he gave
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy
SIEG HEIL
Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Who is David Koresh I am curious
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
How does this follow Your definition of lunatic and disproof thereof seem
rather uhhh SHAKY
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
Good idea
I dont think most people understand what a Christian is It
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches
Naturally those or not TRUE Christians right
Rather I think it
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods
sake He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
same Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives
over to him Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at But
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes
time We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in
a while We box everything into time units Such as work at this
time sports Tv social life God is above these boxes and should be
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
ourselves
Someone else handle this I dont know if its worth it sigh
Adam John Cooper Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings
who thought themselves good simply because
acoopermacalstredu they had no claws
preprocess doc wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgi!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
<93089.050046MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> <1pa6ntINNs5d@gap.caltech.edu>
<1993Mar30.210423.1302@bmerh85.bnr.ca> <1pcnqjINNpon@gap.caltech.edu> <kmr4.1344.733611641@po.CWRU.edu> <1pi9btINNqa5@gap.calte
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20
In article <1pi9btINNqa5@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
|>
|> >>Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over?
|> >Because you rarely ever answer them.
|>
|> Nope, I've answered each question posed, and most were answered multiple
|> times.
He: Fifty dollars if I can't answer your question.
She: What is the Big Bang theory.
He: The Big Bang theory is a recipe for cookies.
She: Fifty dollars, please.
He: Hey, I didn't say the answers would make sense.
jon.
after prepro wupostuunetoliveasgigatesgifidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re Pompous ass
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
93089050046MVS104psuvmpsuedu 1pa6ntINNs5dgapcaltechedu
1993Mar302104231302bmerh85bnrca 1pcnqjINNpongapcaltechedu 1pi9btINNqa5gapcalte
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20
In article 1pi9btINNqa5gapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
Then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over
Because you rarely ever answer them
Nope Ive answered each question posed and most were answered multiple
times
He Fifty dollars if I cant answer your question
She What is the Big Bang theory
He The Big Bang theory is a recipe for cookies
She Fifty dollars please
He Hey I didnt say the answers would make sense
jon
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
mam@mouse.cmhnet.org (Mike McAngus) writes:
>Let me see if I understand what you are saying. In order to talk
>knowledgeably about religion, Atheists must first have been so immersed
>in a religion that only the rare individual could have left.
No, you don't understand. I said that I don't think people can discuss
the subjective merits of religion objectively. This should be obvious.
People here have said that everyone would be better off without religion,
but this almost certainly isn't true.
>>But really, are you threatened by the motto, or by the people that use it?
>The motto is a tool. Let's try to take away the tool.
But, guns and axes are tools, both of which have been used for murder.
Should both be taken away? That is to say, I don't think motto misuse
warrants its removal. At least not in this case.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
mammousecmhnetorg Mike McAngus writes
Let me see if I understand what you are saying In order to talk
knowledgeably about religion Atheists must first have been so immersed
in a religion that only the rare individual could have left
No you dont understand I said that I dont think people can discuss
the subjective merits of religion objectively This should be obvious
People here have said that everyone would be better off without religion
but this almost certainly isnt true
But really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it
The motto is a tool Lets try to take away the tool
But guns and axes are tools both of which have been used for murder
Should both be taken away That is to say I dont think motto misuse
warrants its removal At least not in this case
keith
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center that might answer
your question. I do not have his name right now but if you follow
up I can dig that out for you.
C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Space Debris
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 7
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
There is a guy in NASA Johnson Space Center that might answer
your question I do not have his name right now but if you follow
up I can dig that out for you
COEgalonlarcnasagov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
preprocess doc From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 19
In article <1r6mcgINNe87@gap.caltech.edu+ kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco) writes:
+In article <37147@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM+ wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
+++
++Once inflated the substance was no longer
++needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
++This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
++disastrous deflation.
+
+preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
+a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
+catastrophically deflated. The large silvered shards
+
+The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon.
No, you're wrong about this. Give me some time to get my references.
--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM)
after prepro From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 19
In article 1r6mcgINNe87gapcaltechedu kwpwagcaltechedu Kevin W Plaxco writes
In article 37147scicomAlphaCDCCOM watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson writes
Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
disastrous deflation
preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to
catastrophically deflated The large silvered shards
The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon
No youre wrong about this Give me some time to get my references
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 10
In article <23APR199317452695@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov> dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock) writes:
> - Man-Tended Capability (Griffin has not yet adopted non-sexist
> language) ...
Glad to see Griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on
ritual purification of the language. Pity he got stuck with the turkey
rather than one of the sensible options.
--
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 10
In article 23APR199317452695tm0006lercnasagov dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock writes
ManTended Capability Griffin has not yet adopted nonsexist
language
Glad to see Griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on
ritual purification of the language Pity he got stuck with the turkey
rather than one of the sensible options
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS Dick Dunn henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Request for Support
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr5.095148.5730@sei.cmu.edu> dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood) writes:
>2. If you must respond to one of his articles, include within it
>something similar to the following:
>
> "Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges."
Agreed.
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Request for Support
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 16
In article 1993Apr50951485730seicmuedu dpwseicmuedu David Wood writes
2 If you must respond to one of his articles include within it
something similar to the following
Please answer the questions posed to you in the Charley Challenges
Agreed
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: claice@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Farmer Ted)
Subject: Re: Space Debris
Nntp-Posting-Host: rintintin.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 14
> There is this buy at NASA Langley...
YES! Give me his name I would greatly appreciate it.
Rich
"The Earth is a cradle of the mind. But, we cannot live forever in a cradle"
K.E. Tsiolkovski
Father of Russian Astronautics
after prepro From claicerintintinColoradoEDU Farmer Ted
Subject Re Space Debris
NntpPostingHost rintintincoloradoedu
Organization University of Colorado Boulder
Lines 14
There is this buy at NASA Langley
YES Give me his name I would greatly appreciate it
Rich
The Earth is a cradle of the mind But we cannot live forever in a cradle
KE Tsiolkovski
Father of Russian Astronautics
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Lunar Colony Race! By 2005 or 2010?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 18
In article <1993Apr21.140804.15028@draper.com> mrf4276@egbsun12.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Matthew R. Feulner) writes:
>|> Need to find atleast $1billion for prize money.
>
>My first thought is Ross Perot. After further consideration, I think he'd
>be more likely to try to win it...but come in a disappointing third.
>Try Bill Gates. Try Sam Walton's kids.
When the Lunar Society's $500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit, somebody asked Jerry Pournelle "have you talked
to Bill Gates?". The answer: "Yes. He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it, he'd want to run it -- and he doesn't have
the time."
(Somebody then asked him about Perot. Answer: "Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money.")
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Lunar Colony Race By 2005 or 2010
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 18
In article 1993Apr2114080415028drapercom mrf4276egbsun12NoSubdomainNoDomain Matthew R Feulner writes
Need to find atleast 1billion for prize money
My first thought is Ross Perot After further consideration I think hed
be more likely to try to win itbut come in a disappointing third
Try Bill Gates Try Sam Waltons kids
When the Lunar Societys 500M estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was
mentioned at Making Orbit somebody asked Jerry Pournelle have you talked
to Bill Gates The answer Yes He says that if he were going to
sink that much money into it hed want to run it and he doesnt have
the time
Somebody then asked him about Perot Answer Having Ross Perot on your
board may be a bigger problem than not having the money
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
<1q1kia$gg8@access.digex.net>
Lines: 18
In <1q1kia$gg8@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>In article <19930408.043740.516@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
>>In <1q09ud$ji0@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>>>Why is everyone being so critical of B2?
>> Because it's bogus science, promoted as 'real' science.
>It seems to me, that it's sorta a large engineering project more
>then a science project.
Bingo.
>B2 is not bench science, but rather a large scale attempt to
>re-create a series of micro-ecologies. what's so eveil about this?
Nothing evil at all. There's no actual harm in what they're doing, only
how they represent it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
.sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.
Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)
after prepro From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Biosphere II
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
1q1kiagg8accessdigexnet
Lines 18
In 1q1kiagg8accessdigexnet Pat writes
In article 19930408043740516almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
In 1q09udji0accessdigexnet Pat writes
Why is everyone being so critical of B2
Because its bogus science promoted as real science
It seems to me that its sorta a large engineering project more
then a science project
Bingo
B2 is not bench science but rather a large scale attempt to
recreate a series of microecologies whats so eveil about this
Nothing evil at all Theres no actual harm in what theyre doing only
how they represent it
sig files are like strings every yoyos got one
Greg Nicholls nichovnetibmcom business or
nichoolympusdemoncouk private
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 72
In <1pkqe2INN54n@lynx.unm.edu> cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>[deleted, to get to the point:]
>>
>> Therefore, in a nutshell, my opinion is that pre-marital sex makes the
>> likelihood of extra-marital sex more probable. Furthermore,
>> in my opinion, extra-marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads
>> to greater divorce rates. This in turn, in my opinion, creates trauma
>> and a less stable environment for children, who are then, in my opinion,
>> more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression,
>> etc. And thus, sex outside of marriage is, in the long run, harmful to
>> society.
>I think that you are drawing links where there are none - having sex before
>marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage. The
>issue as I see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on
>your spouse, and how confident you are about yourself.
> In addition, what someone does within their marriage is their own
>business, not mine, and not yours. I have witnessed strong relationships
>that incorporate extra-marital sex.
> I would agree with your assertion about children - children should not be witness to such confusing relationships - if adultery is stressful to
>adults, which I assume it in general is, how can we expect children to
>understand it?
>>
>> Where is the evidence for my opinions? At the moment, there are just
>> generalities I can cite. For example, I read that in the 20th century,
>> the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from
>> depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies (probably
>> what I was reading referred particularly to the USA). Similarly, one
>> can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
>> in this century in Western societies -- particularly with the "sexual
>> revolution" of the 60's, but even before that I think (otherwise the
>> "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible),
>> particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
>> Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage. I propose
>> that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
>> (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
>> linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. I cannot
>> provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
>> seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.
>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation
>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and
>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis.
>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people
>experience.
My argument is mainly a proposal of what I think is a plausible argument
against extra-marital sex -- one which I personally believe has some
truth. My main purpose for posting it here is to show that a
_plausible_ argument can be made against extra-marital sex. At this
stage I am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or
anything like that, just that it is plausible. To try to convince you
all of this particular point of view, I would probably have to do a lot
of work researching what has been done in this field, etc., in order to
gather further evidence, which I simply do not have time to do now.
Also note that I said that I think extra-marital sex is "a prime cause"
(in my opinion) of the generally greater levels of psychological
problems, especially depression, in Western societies. I am not saying
it is "the prime cause" or "the only cause", just "a prime cause" --
i.e. one of the significant contributions to this trend. I think when
you say you think my view is simplistic, you have forgotten this -- I
admit that there are probably other factors, but I do think that
extra-marital sex (and, IMO, subsequent destabilization of the family)
is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like
depression in Western society this century.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 72
In 1pkqe2INN54nlynxunmedu cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes
In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
[deleted to get to the point]
Therefore in a nutshell my opinion is that premarital sex makes the
likelihood of extramarital sex more probable Furthermore
in my opinion extramarital sex helps break down partnerships and leads
to greater divorce rates This in turn in my opinion creates trauma
and a less stable environment for children who are then in my opinion
more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression
etc And thus sex outside of marriage is in the long run harmful to
society
I think that you are drawing links where there are none having sex before
marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage The
issue as I see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on
your spouse and how confident you are about yourself
In addition what someone does within their marriage is their own
business not mine and not yours I have witnessed strong relationships
that incorporate extramarital sex
I would agree with your assertion about children children should not be witness to such confusing relationships if adultery is stressful to
adults which I assume it in general is how can we expect children to
understand it
Where is the evidence for my opinions At the moment there are just
generalities I can cite For example I read that in the 20th century
the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from
depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies probably
what I was reading referred particularly to the USA Similarly one
can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
in this century in Western societies particularly with the sexual
revolution of the 60s but even before that I think otherwise the
sexual revolution of the 60s would not have been possible
particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage I propose
that these two trends greater level of general depression in society
and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are
linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former I cannot
provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it
Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people
experience
My argument is mainly a proposal of what I think is a plausible argument
against extramarital sex one which I personally believe has some
truth My main purpose for posting it here is to show that a
_plausible_ argument can be made against extramarital sex At this
stage I am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or
anything like that just that it is plausible To try to convince you
all of this particular point of view I would probably have to do a lot
of work researching what has been done in this field etc in order to
gather further evidence which I simply do not have time to do now
Also note that I said that I think extramarital sex is a prime cause
in my opinion of the generally greater levels of psychological
problems especially depression in Western societies I am not saying
it is the prime cause or the only cause just a prime cause
ie one of the significant contributions to this trend I think when
you say you think my view is simplistic you have forgotten this I
admit that there are probably other factors but I do think that
extramarital sex and IMO subsequent destabilization of the family
is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like
depression in Western society this century
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Magellan Update - 04/23/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 23, 1993
1. The Magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally, gathering
gravity data to plot the density variations of Venus in the
mid-latitudes. The solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees
and spacecraft temperatures dropped 2-3 degrees C.
2. An end-to-end test of the Delayed Aerobraking Data readout
process was conducted this week in preparation for the Transition
Experiment. There was some difficulty locking up to the data frames,
and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in
equipment at the tracking station.
3. Magellan has completed 7277 orbits of Venus and is now 32 days
from the end of Cycle 4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
4. Magellan scientists were participating in the Brown-Vernadsky
Microsymposium at Brown University in Providence, RI, this week. This
joint meeting of U.S. and Russian Venus researchers has been
continuing for many years.
5. A three-day simulation of Transition Experiment aerobraking
activities is planned for next week, including Orbit Trim Maneuvers
and Starcal (Star calibration) Orbits.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Magellan Update 042393
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 34
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 23 1993
1 The Magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally gathering
gravity data to plot the density variations of Venus in the
midlatitudes The solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees
and spacecraft temperatures dropped 23 degrees C
2 An endtoend test of the Delayed Aerobraking Data readout
process was conducted this week in preparation for the Transition
Experiment There was some difficulty locking up to the data frames
and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in
equipment at the tracking station
3 Magellan has completed 7277 orbits of Venus and is now 32 days
from the end of Cycle 4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
4 Magellan scientists were participating in the BrownVernadsky
Microsymposium at Brown University in Providence RI this week This
joint meeting of US and Russian Venus researchers has been
continuing for many years
5 A threeday simulation of Transition Experiment aerobraking
activities is planned for next week including Orbit Trim Maneuvers
and Starcal Star calibration Orbits
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.000021.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 55
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1993Apr22.162501.747@indyvax.iupui.edu>, tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
> In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
> such a contest without delving to deep into the budget. I mentioned
> granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining
> rights.) Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
> not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
> situation for the winner.) So how about this? Give the winning group
> (I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
> moratorium on taxes.
>
> Tom Freebairn
Who says there is no mineral rights to be given? Who says? The UN or the US
Government?
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
The UN can't other than legal tom foolerie.. Can the truly inforce it?
If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
stop you from doing it. Maybe not acknowledge you?
Why can't a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great
beyond of space? what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is
not.. Maybe I am a few years ahead on this.. It is liek the old Catholic Church
stating which was Portugals and what was Spains, and along came the Reformation
and made it all null and void..
What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what
ever.. As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble..
Basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason
or another, but who will give you a "home".. Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever..
There are nations in the World who are not part of the UN, got to them and
offer your services and such.. I know that sound crazy, but. is it..
Also once you have the means to mine the moon (or whatever) then just do it.
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else, they will
not care..
If your worried about the US, do the same thing..
Why be limited by the short sighted people of earth.. After all they have many
other things to worry about that if someone is mining the Moon or MArs or what
ever..
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out, to do jus ta little bit more, and to tell the crown to
piss off.. If my ancestors thought the way many today think, Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea..
I just read a good book, "Tower of the Gods" Interesting..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
ArticleID aurora1993Apr230000211
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 55
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1993Apr22162501747indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining
rights Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner So how about this Give the winning group
I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
moratorium on taxes
Tom Freebairn
Who says there is no mineral rights to be given Who says The UN or the US
Government
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
The UN cant other than legal tom foolerie Can the truly inforce it
If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it Maybe not acknowledge you
Why cant a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great
beyond of space what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is
not Maybe I am a few years ahead on this It is liek the old Catholic Church
stating which was Portugals and what was Spains and along came the Reformation
and made it all null and void
What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroidsmarsmoon or what
ever As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble
Basically find a country who wants to go into space but cant for soem reason
or another but who will give you a home Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever
There are nations in the World who are not part of the UN got to them and
offer your services and such I know that sound crazy but is it
Also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it
The UN if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will
not care
If your worried about the US do the same thing
Why be limited by the short sighted people of earth After all they have many
other things to worry about that if someone is mining the Moon or MArs or what
ever
Basically what I am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a
little bit farther out to do jus ta little bit more and to tell the crown to
piss off If my ancestors thought the way many today think Id have been born
in Central Europe just north of the Black Sea
I just read a good book Tower of the Gods Interesting
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 91
In article <17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:
>I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
>line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
>wrap at this university.
Dennis, I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of $$. Customers included government (including NASA), for profit and
non-profit companies. All expected a wrap (usually called a fee). Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors.
The subcontractors where universities, for-profits, non-profits, and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space. ALL
charged fees as part of the work. Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers; they charge a fee.
Now, I'm sure your a competent engineer Dennis, but you clearly lack
experience in several areas. Your posts show that you don't understand
the importance of integration in large projects. You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything. This isn't
a flame, jsut a statement.
Your employer DOES charge a fee. You may not see it but you do.
>>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>>costing people how much fee they add to a project.
>I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
>any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.
Well there you are Dennis. As I said, they simply include the fee in
their overhead. Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer.
>No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
>of the Overhead capital of NASA.
Integration, Dennis, isn't overhead.
>Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
>better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on.
Dennis, Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs. When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion $$, the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem. Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station.
>Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
>at a place where everything is overhead.
When you have a bit more experience Dennis, you will realize that
integration isn't overhead. It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort.
>Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
>demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being
>selective with the facts again.
The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress. Suprise suprise. The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn't address
the problems until the press published the story.
Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns? You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns?
>If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
>of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
>"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
>for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a
>blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.
You should know Dennis that NASA doesn't include transport costs for
resuply. That comes from the Shuttle budget. What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport.
>Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
>to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
>do so.
I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------60 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 91
In article 17APR199316423628judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes
I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university
Dennis I have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions
of Customers included government including NASA for profit and
nonprofit companies All expected a wrap usually called a fee Much
of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors
The subcontractors where universities forprofits nonprofits and
even some of the NASA Centers for the Commercialization of Space ALL
charged fees as part of the work Down the street is one of the NASA
commercialization centers they charge a fee
Now Im sure your a competent engineer Dennis but you clearly lack
experience in several areas Your posts show that you dont understand
the importance of integration in large projects You also show a lack
of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it
is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything This isnt
a flame jsut a statement
Your employer DOES charge a fee You may not see it but you do
Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project
I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead
Well there you are Dennis As I said they simply include the fee in
their overhead Many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can
change depending on the customer
No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA
Integration Dennis isnt overhead
Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on
Dennis Reston has been the only NASA agency working to reduce costs When
WP 02 was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where
doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem Reston was the
only place you would find people actually interested in solving the
problems and building a station
Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead
When you have a bit more experience Dennis you will realize that
integration isnt overhead It is the single most important part
of a successful large scale effort
Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being
selective with the facts again
The story you refer to said that some NASA people blamed it on
Congress Suprise suprise The fact remains that it is the centers
you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldnt address
the problems until the press published the story
Are you saying the Reston managers where wrong to get NASA to address
the overruns You approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns
If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see
You should know Dennis that NASA doesnt include transport costs for
resuply That comes from the Shuttle budget What they where saying
is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport
Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so
I do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of
Reston to ask that the problems with WP 02 be addressed
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
60 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orbital RepairStation
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21
In article <C5MtyJ.12q@well.sf.ca.us> collins@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Collins) writes:
>The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include...
>If you go solar, you have to replace the arrays every trip, with
>current technology.
You're assuming that "go solar" = "photovoltaic". Solar dynamic power
(turbo-alternators) doesn't have this problem. It also has rather less
air drag due to its higher efficiency, which is a non-trivial win for big
solar plants at low altitude.
Now, you might have to replace the *rest* of the electronics fairly often,
unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding.
>Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
>by international treaty.
References? Such treaties have been *proposed*, but as far as I know,
none of them has ever been negotiated or signed.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orbital RepairStation
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21
In article collinswellsfcaus Steve Collins writes
The difficulties of a high Isp OTV include
If you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with
current technology
Youre assuming that go solar photovoltaic Solar dynamic power
turboalternators doesnt have this problem It also has rather less
air drag due to its higher efficiency which is a nontrivial win for big
solar plants at low altitude
Now you might have to replace the rest of the electronics fairly often
unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding
Nuclear power sources are strongly restricted
by international treaty
References Such treaties have been proposed but as far as I know
none of them has ever been negotiated or signed
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: agc@bmdhh286.bnr.ca (Alan Carter)
Subject: Command Loss Timer (Re: Galileo Update - 04/22/93)
Keywords: Galileo, JPL
Nntp-Posting-Host: bmdhh286
Organization: BNR-Europe-Limited, Maidenhead, England
Lines: 17
In article <22APR199323003578@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
|> 3. On April 19, a NO-OP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
|> 264 hours, its planned value during this mission phase.
This activity is regularly reported in Ron's interesting posts. Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is?
Thanks, Alan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Belle Vue Court |"They're unfriendly, which | Home: 0684 564438
32 Belle Vue Terrace | is fortunate, really. They'd | Away: 0628 784351
Great Malvern | be difficult to like." | Work: 0628 794137
Worcestershire | |
WR14 4PZ | Kerr Avon, Blake's Seven | Temporary: agc@bnr.ca
England | | Permanent: alan@gid.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
after prepro From agcbmdhh286bnrca Alan Carter
Subject Command Loss Timer Re Galileo Update 042293
Keywords Galileo JPL
NntpPostingHost bmdhh286
Organization BNREuropeLimited Maidenhead England
Lines 17
In article 22APR199323003578kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
3 On April 19 a NOOP command was sent to reset the command loss timer to
264 hours its planned value during this mission phase
This activity is regularly reported in Rons interesting posts Could
someone explain what the Command Loss Timer is
Thanks Alan
1 Belle Vue Court Theyre unfriendly which Home 0684 564438
32 Belle Vue Terrace is fortunate really Theyd Away 0628 784351
Great Malvern be difficult to like Work 0628 794137
Worcestershire
WR14 4PZ Kerr Avon Blakes Seven Temporary agcbnrca
England Permanent alangidcouk
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: sgi
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qjipo$pen@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
|> In article <1qinmd$sp@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> #|>
|> #|> At any rate, even if your interpretation is correct this does
|> #|> not imply that the killings are religously motivated, which was
|> #|> the original poster's seeming claim.
|> #
|> #Tricky, tricky. I'm replying to your blanket claim that they
|> #are *not* religiously motivated.
|>
|> They aren't. Irish catholics in the south do not kill Irish protestants
|> in the south, yet have precisely the same history behind them. Those
|> who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather
|> obvious matter of British occupation, partition and misguided patriotism
|> on both sides.
False dichotomy. You claimed the killing were *not* religiously
motivated, and I'm saying that's wrong. I'm not saying that
each and every killing is religiously motivate, as I spelled out
in detail.
|>
|> The problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical
|> roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated
|> by a protestant one. The grotesque killing of soldiers and
|> civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism, civil rights issues, and
|> revenge. It's only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard
|> to understand - religion need not be invoked to explain it.
Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph?
|> #But to claim that "The killings in N.I are not religously
|> #motivated." is grotesque. All that means is that the Church
|> #and believers are doing what they always do with history
|> #they can't face: they rewrite it.
|>
|> You're attacking a different claim. My claim is that when an IRA
|> terrorist plants a bomb in Warrington s/he does not have as a motive
|> the greater glory of God.
Sorry, Frank, but what I put in quotes is your own words from your
posting <1qi83b$ec4@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>. Don't tell us now that
it's a different claim. If you can no longer stand behind your
original claim, just say so.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization sgi
Lines 48
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1qjipopenhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1qinmdspfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
At any rate even if your interpretation is correct this does
not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was
the original posters seeming claim
Tricky tricky Im replying to your blanket claim that they
are not religiously motivated
They arent Irish catholics in the south do not kill Irish protestants
in the south yet have precisely the same history behind them Those
who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather
obvious matter of British occupation partition and misguided patriotism
on both sides
False dichotomy You claimed the killing were not religiously
motivated and Im saying thats wrong Im not saying that
each and every killing is religiously motivate as I spelled out
in detail
The problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical
roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated
by a protestant one The grotesque killing of soldiers and
civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism civil rights issues and
revenge Its only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard
to understand religion need not be invoked to explain it
Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph
But to claim that The killings in NI are not religously
motivated is grotesque All that means is that the Church
and believers are doing what they always do with history
they cant face they rewrite it
Youre attacking a different claim My claim is that when an IRA
terrorist plants a bomb in Warrington she does not have as a motive
the greater glory of God
Sorry Frank but what I put in quotes is your own words from your
posting 1qi83bec4horusapmchpsnide Dont tell us now that
its a different claim If you can no longer stand behind your
original claim just say so
jon
preprocess doc From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Questions about Titan IV and Ariane 5
Distribution: sci
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Lines: 26
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1
In article <C50orq.7G0@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, gwg33762@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Garret W. Gengler) writes...
>In sci.space you write:
>
>>Try the ENVIRONET database at GSFC. FTP to envnet.gsfc.nasa.gov or
>>128.183.104.16, or call (310)286-5690. They have data on STS, Ariane, Titan,
>>Atlas, Delta and Scout launch environments.
>
>Howdy. Thanks for the info.
>
>I tried "anonymous" FTP there, but it didn't work.
>I also tried telnetting to the same address, but it asked for a login
>and password, although there was a note saying that the new username for
>environet was "envnet".
>
>Anyways, do you have any idea what else I should try?
>
>Thanks,
>Garret
>
>
The home office number for ENVIRONET is (301) 286-5690 (note area
code change). A friend of mine used to use it to get LDEF data, but
he had to apply for a login name and password. I have a call in for
more info, which I hope to get in the morning.
David W. @ GSFC
after prepro From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Questions about Titan IV and Ariane 5
Distribution sci
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center Robotics Lab
Lines 26
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1
In article gwg33762uxacsouiucedu Garret W Gengler writes
In scispace you write
Try the ENVIRONET database at GSFC FTP to envnetgsfcnasagov or
12818310416 or call 3102865690 They have data on STS Ariane Titan
Atlas Delta and Scout launch environments
Howdy Thanks for the info
I tried anonymous FTP there but it didnt work
I also tried telnetting to the same address but it asked for a login
and password although there was a note saying that the new username for
environet was envnet
Anyways do you have any idea what else I should try
Thanks
Garret
The home office number for ENVIRONET is 301 2865690 note area
code change A friend of mine used to use it to get LDEF data but
he had to apply for a login name and password I have a call in for
more info which I hope to get in the morning
David W GSFC
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17
In article <1quh78INNf45@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>> >The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
>> >When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display...
>> Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
>> month...
>
>Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I was there three weeks ago and
>it wasn't there. Not that I would have known to look for it, of course,
>but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
>would have caught my attention instantly.
It wasn't especially prominent, as I recall. However, quite possibly it's
no longer on display; NASM, like most museums, has much more stuff than it
can display at once, and does rotate the displays occasionally.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17
In article 1quh78INNf45elroyjplnasagov pjseuclidjplnasagov writes
The National Air Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display
Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month
Sorry to put a damper on your plans but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasnt there Not that I would have known to look for it of course
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly
It wasnt especially prominent as I recall However quite possibly its
no longer on display NASM like most museums has much more stuff than it
can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Speculations
From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 17
In article <930405.172903.4w6.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> If this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim, then why can't
>> he terminate eternity?
>
>For the same reason he can't flibble glop ork groink.
>
>The thing you are demanding that he must be able to do, has no meaning in its
>own terms.
This is a classic example of excessive faith in reason. The fact that we
have trouble talking about something doesn't imply that it is impossible; it
simply implies that it is hard to talk about. There is a very good chance
that God *can* flibble glop ork groink. Charlie Wingate can flibble glop
ork groink, and he isn't even God.
--
Doug Graham dgraham@bnr.ca My opinions are my own.
after prepro Subject Re Speculations
From dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham
Organization BellNorthern Research Ottawa Canada
Lines 17
In article 9304051729034w6rusnewsw165wmantiscouk mathew writes
Nanci Ann Miller writes
If this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim then why cant
he terminate eternity
For the same reason he cant flibble glop ork groink
The thing you are demanding that he must be able to do has no meaning in its
own terms
This is a classic example of excessive faith in reason The fact that we
have trouble talking about something doesnt imply that it is impossible it
simply implies that it is hard to talk about There is a very good chance
that God can flibble glop ork groink Charlie Wingate can flibble glop
ork groink and he isnt even God
Doug Graham dgrahambnrca My opinions are my own
preprocess doc From: ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu (;;;;RD48)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Article-I.D.: agate.1pr5u2$t0b
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.berkeley.edu
I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade (69-70, 70-71). They came in Chocolate,
strawberry, and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil (well, it seemed
like space foil at the time).
The taste is hard to describe, although I remember it fondly. It was
most certainly more "candy" than say a modern "Power Bar." Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins. The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste. Strawberry sucked.
Man, these were my "60's."
--
Gavin Helf
UC Berkeley Political Science
Berkeley-Stanford Program in Soviet Studies
ghelf@violet.berkeley.edu
after prepro From ghelfvioletberkeleyedu RD48
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
ArticleID agate1pr5u2t0b
Organization University of California Berkeley
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost violetberkeleyedu
I had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in
first and second grade 6970 7071 They came in Chocolate
strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about 10cm long
and 1cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed
like space foil at the time
The taste is hard to describe although I remember it fondly It was
most certainly more candy than say a modern Power Bar Sort of
a toffee injected with vitamins The chocolate Power Bar is a rough
approximation of the taste Strawberry sucked
Man these were my 60s
Gavin Helf
UC Berkeley Political Science
BerkeleyStanford Program in Soviet Studies
ghelfvioletberkeleyedu
preprocess doc From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 71
I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City. Mr. Mark Holderman works down the hall from me, and can
be reached for comment at (713) 483-1317, or via e-mail at
mholderm@jscprofs.nasa.gov.
Mark proposed this design, which he calls "Geode" ("rough on the
outside, but a gem on the inside") or the "ET Strongback with
integrated hab modules and centrifuge." As you can see from file
geodeA.gif, it uses a Space Shuttle External Tank (ET) in place of much
of the truss which is currently part of Space Station Freedom. The
white track on the outside of the ET is used by the Station Remonte
Manipulator System (SRMS) and by the Reaction Control System (RCS)
pod. This allows the RCS pod to move along the track so that thrusting
can occur near the center of gravity (CG) of the Station as the mass
properties of the Station change during assembly.
The inline module design allows the Shuttle to dock more easily because
it can approach closer to the Station's CG and at a structurally strong
part of the Station. In the current SSF design, docking forces are
limited to 400 pounds, which seriously constrains the design of the
docking system.
The ET would have a hatch installed pre-flight, with little additional
launch mass. We've always had the ability to put an ET into orbit
(contrary to some rumors which have circulated here), but we've never
had a reason to do it, while we have had some good reasons not to
(performance penalties, control, debris generation, and eventual
de-orbit and impact footprint). Once on-orbit, we would vent the
residual H2. The ET insulation (SOFI) either a) erodes on-orbit from
impact with atomic Oxygen, or b) stays where it is, and we deploy a
Kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating
the local space environment. Option b) has the advantage of providing
further micrometeor protection. The ET is incredibly strong (remember,
it supports the whole stack during launch), and could serve as the
nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits.
The white module at the end of ET contains a set of Control Moment
Gyros to be used for attitude control, while the RCS will be used
for gyro desaturation. The module also contains a de-orbit system
which can be used at the end of the Station's life to perform a
controlled de-orbit (so we don't kill any more kangaroos, like we
did with Skylab).
The centrifuge, which has the same volume as a hab module, could be
used for long-term studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity
on humans. The centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device
for the whole attitude control system. The centrifuge is mounted on
one of the modules, opposite the ET and the solar panels.
This design uses most of the existing SSF designs for electrical,
data and communication systems, getting leverage from the SSF work
done to date.
Mark proposed this design at Joe Shea's committee in Crystal City,
and he reports that he was warmly received. However, the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely.
Please note that this text is my interpretation of Mark's design;
you should see his notes in the GIF files.
Instead of posting a 2 MB file to sci.space, I tried to post these for
anon-FTP in ames.arc.nasa.gov, but it was out of storage space. I'll
let you all know when I get that done.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"...Development of the space station is as inevitable as
the rising of the sun." -- Wernher von Braun
after prepro From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 71
I have 19 2 MB worth uuencoded GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City Mr Mark Holderman works down the hall from me and can
be reached for comment at 713 4831317 or via email at
mholdermjscprofsnasagov
Mark proposed this design which he calls Geode rough on the
outside but a gem on the inside or the ET Strongback with
integrated hab modules and centrifuge As you can see from file
geodeAgif it uses a Space Shuttle External Tank ET in place of much
of the truss which is currently part of Space Station Freedom The
white track on the outside of the ET is used by the Station Remonte
Manipulator System SRMS and by the Reaction Control System RCS
pod This allows the RCS pod to move along the track so that thrusting
can occur near the center of gravity CG of the Station as the mass
properties of the Station change during assembly
The inline module design allows the Shuttle to dock more easily because
it can approach closer to the Stations CG and at a structurally strong
part of the Station In the current SSF design docking forces are
limited to 400 pounds which seriously constrains the design of the
docking system
The ET would have a hatch installed preflight with little additional
launch mass Weve always had the ability to put an ET into orbit
contrary to some rumors which have circulated here but weve never
had a reason to do it while we have had some good reasons not to
performance penalties control debris generation and eventual
deorbit and impact footprint Once onorbit we would vent the
residual H2 The ET insulation SOFI either a erodes onorbit from
impact with atomic Oxygen or b stays where it is and we deploy a
Kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating
the local space environment Option b has the advantage of providing
further micrometeor protection The ET is incredibly strong remember
it supports the whole stack during launch and could serve as the
nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits
The white module at the end of ET contains a set of Control Moment
Gyros to be used for attitude control while the RCS will be used
for gyro desaturation The module also contains a deorbit system
which can be used at the end of the Stations life to perform a
controlled deorbit so we dont kill any more kangaroos like we
did with Skylab
The centrifuge which has the same volume as a hab module could be
used for longterm studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity
on humans The centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device
for the whole attitude control system The centrifuge is mounted on
one of the modules opposite the ET and the solar panels
This design uses most of the existing SSF designs for electrical
data and communication systems getting leverage from the SSF work
done to date
Mark proposed this design at Joe Sheas committee in Crystal City
and he reports that he was warmly received However the rumors
I hear say that a design based on a wingless Space Shuttle Orbiter
seems more likely
Please note that this text is my interpretation of Marks design
you should see his notes in the GIF files
Instead of posting a 2 MB file to scispace I tried to post these for
anonFTP in amesarcnasagov but it was out of storage space Ill
let you all know when I get that done
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
Development of the space station is as inevitable as
the rising of the sun Wernher von Braun
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 10
In article <j0=5l3=@rpi.edu>, johnsd2@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Dan Johnson) writes:
>In article 143048IO30436@MAINE.MAINE.EDU, <IO30436@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> () writes:
Dan Johnson-
You don't know me, but take this hand anyway. Bravo for GO(DS) = 0.
Beautiful! Simply beautiful!
-jim halat
after prepro Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 10
In article johnsd2jec322itsrpiedu Dan Johnson writes
In article 143048IO30436MAINEMAINEEDU writes
Dan Johnson
You dont know me but take this hand anyway Bravo for GODS 0
Beautiful Simply beautiful
jim halat
preprocess doc From: hdsteven@solitude.Stanford.EDU (H. D. Stevens)
Subject: Re: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: stanford
Lines: 38
In article <YAMAUCHI.93Apr21131325@yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu>, yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
|> >NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
|> >since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
|> >(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
|> >may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
|> >Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
|> >project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
|> >monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
|>
|> This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people. My
|> guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
|> build large, inflatable space structures.
|>
The CU people have been, and continue to be big ozone scientists. So
this is consistent. It is also consistent with the new "Comercial
applications" that NASA and Clinton are pushing so hard.
|>
|> >Is NASA really supporting this junk?
Did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert
all over it? I think the rocket people got alot of $$ for painting
up the sides with the movie stuff. What about the Coke/Pepsi thing
a few years back? NASA has been trying to find ways to get other
people into the space funding business for some time. Frankly, I've
thought about trying it too. When the funding gets tight, only the
innovative get funded. One of the things NASA is big on is co-funding.
If a PI can show co-funding for any proposal, that proposal has a SIGNIFICANTLY
higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no
co-funding. Once again, money talks!
--
H.D. Stevens
Stanford University Email:hdsteven@sun-valley.stanford.edu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory Phone: (415) 725-3293 (Lab)
Durand Building (415) 722-3296 (Bullpen)
Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: (415) 725-3377
after prepro From hdstevensolitudeStanfordEDU H D Stevens
Subject Re Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization stanford
Lines 38
In article yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large inflatable space structures
The CU people have been and continue to be big ozone scientists So
this is consistent It is also consistent with the new Comercial
applications that NASA and Clinton are pushing so hard
Is NASA really supporting this junk
Did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert
all over it I think the rocket people got alot of for painting
up the sides with the movie stuff What about the CokePepsi thing
a few years back NASA has been trying to find ways to get other
people into the space funding business for some time Frankly Ive
thought about trying it too When the funding gets tight only the
innovative get funded One of the things NASA is big on is cofunding
If a PI can show cofunding for any proposal that proposal has a SIGNIFICANTLY
higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no
cofunding Once again money talks
HD Stevens
Stanford University Emailhdstevensunvalleystanfordedu
Aerospace Robotics Laboratory Phone 415 7253293 Lab
Durand Building 415 7223296 Bullpen
Stanford CA 94305 Fax 415 7253377
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 39
In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <C5Jxru.2t8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
Cobb) writes:
>>What do you base your belief on atheism on? Your knowledge and reasoning?
>>COuldn't that be wrong?
>>
> Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. Ignorance of the
> existence of any god. Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
> because of their pride" mistake.
How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
be wrong
to fall into the trap that you mentioned?
Also, if I may, what the heck where we talking about and why didn't I keep
some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were?
MAC
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 39
In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes
What do you base your belief on atheism on Your knowledge and reasoning
COuldnt that be wrong
Actually my atheism is based on ignorance Ignorance of the
existence of any god Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
because of their pride mistake
How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong
to fall into the trap that you mentioned
Also if I may what the heck where we talking about and why didnt I keep
some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were
MAC
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Article-I.D.: news.C51r3o.9wK
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23
yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
>Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
>Engineer" position? Is this just a meaningless administrative
>shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?
Unfortunately, things have been boding ill (is that a legitimate conjugation?)
for a while. While the Office of Exploration had some great ideas, they never
got much money. I've heard good things about Griffin, but it's hard to want
him back in a job where he couldn't do anything.
>Does anyone know what his new duties will be?
The group examining the Freedom-based space station redesign proposals is
headed by Michael Griffin, "NASA's cheif engineer" in the words of Space News.
I believe this is him.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Tout ce qu'un homme est capable d'imaginer, d'autres hommes
seront capable de la realiser"
-Jules Verne
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Griffin Office of Exploration RIP
ArticleID newsC51r3o9wK
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23
yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI
Unfortunately things have been boding ill is that a legitimate conjugation
for a while While the Office of Exploration had some great ideas they never
got much money Ive heard good things about Griffin but its hard to want
him back in a job where he couldnt do anything
Does anyone know what his new duties will be
The group examining the Freedombased space station redesign proposals is
headed by Michael Griffin NASAs cheif engineer in the words of Space News
I believe this is him
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Tout ce quun homme est capable dimaginer dautres hommes
seront capable de la realiser
Jules Verne
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 93
In article <65974@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>>Well, John has a quite different, not necessarily more elaborated theology.
>>There is some evidence that he must have known Luke, and that the content
>>of Q was known to him, but not in a 'canonized' form.
>
>This is a new argument to me. Could you elaborate a little?
>
The argument goes as follows: Q-oid quotes appear in John, but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke. However, they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such, and
not an entirely different source.
>>Assuming that he knew Luke would obviously put him after Luke, and would
>>give evidence for the latter assumption.
>
>I don't think this follows. If you take the most traditional attributions,
>then Luke might have known John, but John is an elder figure in either case.
>We're talking spans of time here which are well within the range of
>lifetimes.
We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
>>>(1) Earlier manuscripts of John have been discovered.
>
>>Interesting, where and which? How are they dated? How old are they?
>
>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand. It was (I think) in the late
>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.
>
When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three?
>>I don't see your point, it is exactly what James Felder said. They had no
>>first hand knowledge of the events, and it obvious that at least two of them
>>used older texts as the base of their account. And even the association of
>>Luke to Paul or Mark to Peter are not generally accepted.
>
>Well, a genuine letter of Peter would be close enough, wouldn't it?
>
Sure, an original together with Id card of sender and receiver would be
fine. So what's that supposed to say? Am I missing something?
>And I don't think a "one step removed" source is that bad. If Luke and Mark
>and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples, then I really
>cannot believe in the sort of "big transformation from Jesus to gospel" that
>some people posit. In news reports, one generally gets no better
>information than this.
>
>And if John IS a diciple, then there's nothing more to be said.
>
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
The argument that John was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel
of John itself. Is there any other evidence for it?
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
Not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources.
>>It is also obvious that Mark has been edited. How old are the oldest
>>manuscripts? To my knowledge (which can be antiquated) the oldest is
>>quite after any of these estimates, and it is not even complete.
>
>The only clear "editing" is problem of the ending, and it's basically a
>hopeless mess. The oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness,
>to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence.
>The most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost.
>The material from verse 9 on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent
>a synopsys of the end of Luke.
>
In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.
But how is that connected to a redating of John?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 93
In article 65974mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Well John has a quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology
There is some evidence that he must have known Luke and that the content
of Q was known to him but not in a canonized form
This is a new argument to me Could you elaborate a little
The argument goes as follows Qoid quotes appear in John but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke However they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such and
not an entirely different source
Assuming that he knew Luke would obviously put him after Luke and would
give evidence for the latter assumption
I dont think this follows If you take the most traditional attributions
then Luke might have known John but John is an elder figure in either case
Were talking spans of time here which are well within the range of
lifetimes
We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly
1 Earlier manuscripts of John have been discovered
Interesting where and which How are they dated How old are they
Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200
When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three
I dont see your point it is exactly what James Felder said They had no
first hand knowledge of the events and it obvious that at least two of them
used older texts as the base of their account And even the association of
Luke to Paul or Mark to Peter are not generally accepted
Well a genuine letter of Peter would be close enough wouldnt it
Sure an original together with Id card of sender and receiver would be
fine So whats that supposed to say Am I missing something
And I dont think a one step removed source is that bad If Luke and Mark
and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then I really
cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from Jesus to gospel that
some people posit In news reports one generally gets no better
information than this
And if John IS a diciple then theres nothing more to be said
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument
The argument that John was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel
of John itself Is there any other evidence for it
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies
Not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources
It is also obvious that Mark has been edited How old are the oldest
manuscripts To my knowledge which can be antiquated the oldest is
quite after any of these estimates and it is not even complete
The only clear editing is problem of the ending and its basically a
hopeless mess The oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness
to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence
The most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost
The material from verse 9 on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent
a synopsys of the end of Luke
In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak
But how is that connected to a redating of John
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: kwp@wag.caltech.edu (Kevin W. Plaxco)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgi1.wag.caltech.edu
In article <37147@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:
>+
>Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
>which expanded in vacuum.
Called "gas".
>Once inflated the substance was no longer
>needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse.
>This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
>disastrous deflation.
The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance. When they were finally punctured, this
preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
catastrophically deflated. The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder.
The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon.
after prepro From kwpwagcaltechedu Kevin W Plaxco
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena CA
Lines 22
NNTPPostingHost sgi1wagcaltechedu
In article 37147scicomAlphaCDCCOM watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson writes
Pageos and two Echo balloons were inflated with a substance
which expanded in vacuum
Called gas
Once inflated the substance was no longer
needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse
This inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no
disastrous deflation
The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance When they were finally punctured this
preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to
catastrophically deflated The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry though no longer useful as a passive transponder
The billboard should pop like a dime store balloon
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
<1q52q8INN6pi@gap.caltech.edu> <93099.234144MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
<1q8lk3INNitq@gap.caltech.edu> <93102.062908MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
<93105.022621TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> <1ql71pINN5ef@gap.caltech.edu>
Lines: 36
In article <1ql71pINN5ef@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan
Schneider) says:
>
>Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>
>>Sure, they may fall back on other things, but this is one they
>>should not have available to use.
>
>It is worse than others? The National Anthem? Should it be changed too?
>God Bless America? The list goes on...
Worse? Maybe not, but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt. supposedly follows. Maybe the others
should be changed to? But I'm not personally as concerned
about the anthem since I don't come across it in daily
nearly unavoidable routines.
>>every christian. And I'd be tempted to rub that motto in the
>>face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
>>gets boring.
>
>Then you'd be no better than the people you despise.
I don't despise the people...just their opinions. I meant
when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea
other than their own...then it just becomes an exercise for
amusement.
>[...]
>>For the motto to be legitimate, it would have to read:
>> "In god, gods, or godlessness we trust"
>
>Would you approve of such a motto?
No. ...not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that.
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell
Subject Re 93099234144MVS104psuvmpsuedu
1q8lk3INNitqgapcaltechedu 93102062908MVS104psuvmpsuedu
93105022621TAN102psuvmpsuedu 1ql71pINN5efgapcaltechedu
Lines 36
In article 1ql71pINN5efgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan
Schneider says
Andrew Newell writes
Sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they
should not have available to use
It is worse than others The National Anthem Should it be changed too
God Bless America The list goes on
Worse Maybe not but it is definately a violation of the
rules the US govt supposedly follows Maybe the others
should be changed to But Im not personally as concerned
about the anthem since I dont come across it in daily
nearly unavoidable routines
every christian And Id be tempted to rub that motto in the
face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging
gets boring
Then youd be no better than the people you despise
I dont despise the peoplejust their opinions I meant
when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea
other than their ownthen it just becomes an exercise for
amusement
[]
For the motto to be legitimate it would have to read
In god gods or godlessness we trust
Would you approve of such a motto
No not unless the only way to get rid of the current one
was to change it to such as that
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 122
In article <ugo62B8w165w@angus.mi.org> dragon@angus.mi.org writes:
>Exactly when will the hover test be done,
Early to mid June.
>and will any of the TV
>networks carry it. I really want to see that...
If they think the public wants to see it they will carry it. Why not
write them and ask? You can reach them at:
F: NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA
ABC "World News Tonight" "Face the Nation"
7 West 66th Street CBS News
New York, NY 10023 2020 M Street, NW
212/887-4040 Washington, DC 20036
202/457-4321
Associated Press "Good Morning America"
50 Rockefeller Plaza ABC News
New York, NY 10020 1965 Broadway
National Desk (212/621-1600) New York, NY 10023
Foreign Desk (212/621-1663) 212/496-4800
Washington Bureau (202/828-6400)
Larry King Live TV
"CBS Evening News" CNN
524 W. 57th Street 111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
New York, NY 10019 Washington, DC 20001
212/975-3693 202/898-7900
"CBS This Morning" Larry King Show--Radio
524 W. 57th Street Mutual Broadcasting
New York, NY 10019 1755 So. Jefferson Davis Highway
212/975-2824 Arlington, VA 22202
703/685-2175
"Christian Science Monitor"
CSM Publishing Society "Los Angeles Times"
One Norway Street Times-Mirror Square
Boston, MA 02115 Los Angeles, CA 90053
800/225-7090 800/528-4637
CNN "MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour"
One CNN Center P.O. Box 2626
Box 105366 Washington, DC 20013
Atlanta, GA 30348 703/998-2870
404/827-1500
"MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour"
CNN WNET-TV
Washington Bureau 356 W. 58th Street
111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW New York, NY 10019
Washington, DC 20001 212/560-3113
202/898-7900
"Crossfire" NBC News
CNN 4001 Nebraska Avenue, NW
111 Massachusetts Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20036
Washington, DC 20001 202/885-4200
202/898-7951 202/362-2009 (fax)
"Morning Edition/All Things Considered"
National Public Radio
2025 M Street, NW
Washington, DC 20036
202/822-2000
United Press International
1400 Eye Street, NW
Washington, DC 20006
202/898-8000
"New York Times" "U.S. News & World Report"
229 W. 43rd Street 2400 N Street, NW
New York, NY 10036 Washington, DC 20037
212/556-1234 202/955-2000
212/556-7415
"New York Times" "USA Today"
Washington Bureau 1000 Wilson Boulevard
1627 Eye Street, NW, 7th Floor Arlington, VA 22229
Washington, DC 20006 703/276-3400
202/862-0300
"Newsweek" "Wall Street Journal"
444 Madison Avenue 200 Liberty Street
New York, NY 10022 New York, NY 10281
212/350-4000 212/416-2000
"Nightline" "Washington Post"
ABC News 1150 15th Street, NW
47 W. 66th Street Washington, DC 20071
New York, NY 10023 202/344-6000
212/887-4995
"Nightline" "Washington Week In Review"
Ted Koppel WETA-TV
ABC News P.O. Box 2626
1717 DeSales, NW Washington, DC 20013
Washington, DC 20036 703/998-2626
202/887-7364
"This Week With David Brinkley"
ABC News
1717 DeSales, NW
Washington, DC 20036
202/887-7777
"Time" magazine
Time Warner, Inc.
Time & Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York, NY 10020
212/522-1212
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 122
In article dragonangusmiorg writes
Exactly when will the hover test be done
Early to mid June
and will any of the TV
networks carry it I really want to see that
If they think the public wants to see it they will carry it Why not
write them and ask You can reach them at
F NATIONAL NEWS MEDIA
ABC World News Tonight Face the Nation
7 West 66th Street CBS News
New York NY 10023 2020 M Street NW
2128874040 Washington DC 20036
2024574321
Associated Press Good Morning America
50 Rockefeller Plaza ABC News
New York NY 10020 1965 Broadway
National Desk 2126211600 New York NY 10023
Foreign Desk 2126211663 2124964800
Washington Bureau 2028286400
Larry King Live TV
CBS Evening News CNN
524 W 57th Street 111 Massachusetts Avenue NW
New York NY 10019 Washington DC 20001
2129753693 2028987900
CBS This Morning Larry King ShowRadio
524 W 57th Street Mutual Broadcasting
New York NY 10019 1755 So Jefferson Davis Highway
2129752824 Arlington VA 22202
7036852175
Christian Science Monitor
CSM Publishing Society Los Angeles Times
One Norway Street TimesMirror Square
Boston MA 02115 Los Angeles CA 90053
8002257090 8005284637
CNN MacNeilLehrer NewsHour
One CNN Center PO Box 2626
Box 105366 Washington DC 20013
Atlanta GA 30348 7039982870
4048271500
MacNeilLehrer NewsHour
CNN WNETTV
Washington Bureau 356 W 58th Street
111 Massachusetts Avenue NW New York NY 10019
Washington DC 20001 2125603113
2028987900
Crossfire NBC News
CNN 4001 Nebraska Avenue NW
111 Massachusetts Avenue NW Washington DC 20036
Washington DC 20001 2028854200
2028987951 2023622009 fax
Morning EditionAll Things Considered
National Public Radio
2025 M Street NW
Washington DC 20036
2028222000
United Press International
1400 Eye Street NW
Washington DC 20006
2028988000
New York Times US News World Report
229 W 43rd Street 2400 N Street NW
New York NY 10036 Washington DC 20037
2125561234 2029552000
2125567415
New York Times USA Today
Washington Bureau 1000 Wilson Boulevard
1627 Eye Street NW 7th Floor Arlington VA 22229
Washington DC 20006 7032763400
2028620300
Newsweek Wall Street Journal
444 Madison Avenue 200 Liberty Street
New York NY 10022 New York NY 10281
2123504000 2124162000
Nightline Washington Post
ABC News 1150 15th Street NW
47 W 66th Street Washington DC 20071
New York NY 10023 2023446000
2128874995
Nightline Washington Week In Review
Ted Koppel WETATV
ABC News PO Box 2626
1717 DeSales NW Washington DC 20013
Washington DC 20036 7039982626
2028877364
This Week With David Brinkley
ABC News
1717 DeSales NW
Washington DC 20036
2028877777
Time magazine
Time Warner Inc
Time Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York NY 10020
2125221212
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
57 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 32
jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> Why would the Rushdie case be particularly legitimate? As I've said
> elsewhere on this issue, Rushdie's actions had effects in Islamic
> countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didn't commit
> a crime in an Islamic country.
Actually, it is simple.
A person P has committed a crime C in country X if P was within the borders
of X at the time when C was committed. It doesn't matter if the physical
manifestation of C is outside X.
For instance, if I hack into NASA's Ames Research Lab and delete all their
files, I have committed a crime in the United Kingdom. If the US authorities
wish to prosecute me under US law rather than UK law, they have no automatic
right to do so.
This is why the net authorities in the US tried to put pressure on some sites
in Holland. Holland had no anti-cracking legislation, and so it was viewed
as a "hacker haven" by some US system administrators.
Similarly, a company called Red Hot Television is broadcasting pornographic
material which can be received in Britain. If they were broadcasting in
Britain, they would be committing a crime. But they are not, they are
broadcasting from Denmark, so the British Government is powerless to do
anything about it, in spite of the apparent law-breaking.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong. More confusingly, I could
be right in some countries but not in others...
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 32
jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Why would the Rushdie case be particularly legitimate As Ive said
elsewhere on this issue Rushdies actions had effects in Islamic
countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didnt commit
a crime in an Islamic country
Actually it is simple
A person P has committed a crime C in country X if P was within the borders
of X at the time when C was committed It doesnt matter if the physical
manifestation of C is outside X
For instance if I hack into NASAs Ames Research Lab and delete all their
files I have committed a crime in the United Kingdom If the US authorities
wish to prosecute me under US law rather than UK law they have no automatic
right to do so
This is why the net authorities in the US tried to put pressure on some sites
in Holland Holland had no anticracking legislation and so it was viewed
as a hacker haven by some US system administrators
Similarly a company called Red Hot Television is broadcasting pornographic
material which can be received in Britain If they were broadcasting in
Britain they would be committing a crime But they are not they are
broadcasting from Denmark so the British Government is powerless to do
anything about it in spite of the apparent lawbreaking
Of course Im not a lawyer so I could be wrong More confusingly I could
be right in some countries but not in others
mathew
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses (good grief!)
Lines: 7
The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses good grief
Lines 7
The amount of energy being spent on ONE LOUSY SYLLOGISM says volumes for the
true position of reason in this group
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.123433.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 43
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1r96hb$kbi@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> In article <1993Apr23.001718.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>>In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>>> Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
>>> when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining.
>>===
>>I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
>>miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
>>people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
>>mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).
>
>
> Lot's of these small miners are no longer miners. THey are people living
> rent free on Federal land, under the claim of being a miner. The facts are
> many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining, do not
> often even live their full time, and do fotentimes do a fair bit
> of environmental damage.
>
> These minign statutes were created inthe 1830's-1870's when the west was
> uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier. Times change
> people change. DEAL. you don't have a constitutional right to live off
> the same industry forever. Anyone who claims the have a right to their
> job in particular, is spouting nonsense. THis has been a long term
> federal welfare program, that has outlived it's usefulness.
>
> pat
>
Hum, do you enjoy putting words in my mouth?
Come to Nome and meet some of these miners.. I am not sure how things go down
south in the lower 48 (I used to visit, but), of course to believe the
media/news its going to heck (or just plain crazy).
Well it seems that alot of Unionist types seem to think that having a job is a
right, and not a priviledge. Right to the same job as your forbearers, SEE:
Kennedy's and tel me what you see (and the families they have married into).
There is a reason why many historians and poli-sci types use unionist and
socialist in the same breath.
The miners that I know, are just your average hardworking people who pay there
taxes and earn a living.. But taxes are not the answer. But maybe we could move
this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr231234331
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 43
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1r96hbkbiaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Apr230017181auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining
I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point
Lots of these small miners are no longer miners THey are people living
rent free on Federal land under the claim of being a miner The facts are
many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining do not
often even live their full time and do fotentimes do a fair bit
of environmental damage
These minign statutes were created inthe 1830s1870s when the west was
uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier Times change
people change DEAL you dont have a constitutional right to live off
the same industry forever Anyone who claims the have a right to their
job in particular is spouting nonsense THis has been a long term
federal welfare program that has outlived its usefulness
pat
Hum do you enjoy putting words in my mouth
Come to Nome and meet some of these miners I am not sure how things go down
south in the lower 48 I used to visit but of course to believe the
medianews its going to heck or just plain crazy
Well it seems that alot of Unionist types seem to think that having a job is a
right and not a priviledge Right to the same job as your forbearers SEE
Kennedys and tel me what you see and the families they have married into
There is a reason why many historians and polisci types use unionist and
socialist in the same breath
The miners that I know are just your average hardworking people who pay there
taxes and earn a living But taxes are not the answer But maybe we could move
this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1r6f3a$2ai@news.umbc.edu> rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian) writes:
>how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year.
>Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles.
>Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
>the arctic circle.
If you want to have some fun.
Plug the basic formulas into Lotus.
Use the spreadsheet auto re-calc, and graphing functions
to produce bar graphs based on latitude, tilt and hours of day light avg.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 18
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1r6f3a2ainewsumbcedu roubenmath9mathumbcedu Rouben Rostamian writes
how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year
Experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles
Compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below
the arctic circle
If you want to have some fun
Plug the basic formulas into Lotus
Use the spreadsheet auto recalc and graphing functions
to produce bar graphs based on latitude tilt and hours of day light avg
pat
preprocess doc From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 55
In article <1993Apr23.000021.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>In article <1993Apr22.162501.747@indyvax.iupui.edu>, tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>> [...] Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
>> not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
>> situation for the winner.) So how about this? Give the winning group
>> (I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
>> moratorium on taxes.
>>
>> Tom Freebairn
>
>
>Who says there is no mineral rights to be given? Who says? The UN or the US
>Government?
Tom's right about this. It's only a grantable right if the granter has
the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you.
Never mind the legal status.
>Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars, who will stop you?
>The UN can't other than legal tom foolerie.. Can the truly inforce it?
Nick's right about this. It's always easier to obtain forgiveness than
permission. Not many people remember that Britain's King George III
expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghany/appalachian
mountains. Said subjects basically said, "Stop us if you can." He
couldn't.
>If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation, who will
>stop you from doing it. Maybe not acknowledge you?
That's how the USA started. Of course, that's also how the Bolivarian
Republic started (ca. 1800-1820) in central america. It didn't have
quite the staying power of the USA. I'm sure there are more examples of
going far away and then ignoring authority, but none jump to mind right
now.
>What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged, and offer your
>services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids/mars/moon or what
>ever.. As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble..
Or do as some whaling nations do: define whatever activities you want to
carry out as "scientific research" which just coincidentally requires
the recovery of megatonnes of minerals (or whatever), then go at it.
>Basically find a country who wants to go into space, but can't for soem reason
>or another, but who will give you a "home".. Such as Saudia Arabia or
>whatever..
Lute Keyser had just this sort of arrangement with Libya (I think) in
the late '70's for his commercial space launch project (one of the very
earliest). It was killed by Soviet propaganda about NATO cruise
missiles in Africa, which made Libya renege on the arrangement.
Doug Loss
after prepro From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 55
In article 1993Apr230000211auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
In article 1993Apr22162501747indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
[] Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner So how about this Give the winning group
I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
moratorium on taxes
Tom Freebairn
Who says there is no mineral rights to be given Who says The UN or the US
Government
Toms right about this Its only a grantable right if the granter has
the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you
Never mind the legal status
Major question is if you decide to mine the moon or Mars who will stop you
The UN cant other than legal tom foolerie Can the truly inforce it
Nicks right about this Its always easier to obtain forgiveness than
permission Not many people remember that Britains King George III
expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghanyappalachian
mountains Said subjects basically said Stop us if you can He
couldnt
If you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will
stop you from doing it Maybe not acknowledge you
Thats how the USA started Of course thats also how the Bolivarian
Republic started ca 18001820 in central america It didnt have
quite the staying power of the USA Im sure there are more examples of
going far away and then ignoring authority but none jump to mind right
now
What can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your
services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroidsmarsmoon or what
ever As long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble
Or do as some whaling nations do define whatever activities you want to
carry out as scientific research which just coincidentally requires
the recovery of megatonnes of minerals or whatever then go at it
Basically find a country who wants to go into space but cant for soem reason
or another but who will give you a home Such as Saudia Arabia or
whatever
Lute Keyser had just this sort of arrangement with Libya I think in
the late 70s for his commercial space launch project one of the very
earliest It was killed by Soviet propaganda about NATO cruise
missiles in Africa which made Libya renege on the arrangement
Doug Loss
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 17
In article <1qiu97INNpq6@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>
ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles) writes:
>
> As evidence for the Resurrection, it is often claimed that the Disciples
>were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce
>their claim that Jesus had come back from the dead.
> Now, I skimmed Acts and such, and I found a reference to this happening
>to Stephen, but no others. Where does this apparently very widely held
>belief come from? Is there any evidence outside the Bible? Is there any
>evidence *in* the Bible? I sure haven't found any...
>
Early authors and legends. The most important sources can be found in the
Martyriologia of the Catholic Church. Makes the Grimms look like exact
science.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Who Says the Apostles Were Tortured
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 17
In article 1qiu97INNpq6srvr1enginumichedu
inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles writes
As evidence for the Resurrection it is often claimed that the Disciples
were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce
their claim that Jesus had come back from the dead
Now I skimmed Acts and such and I found a reference to this happening
to Stephen but no others Where does this apparently very widely held
belief come from Is there any evidence outside the Bible Is there any
evidence in the Bible I sure havent found any
Early authors and legends The most important sources can be found in the
Martyriologia of the Catholic Church Makes the Grimms look like exact
science
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Re: Science News article on Federal R&D
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <C5r2DK.764@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>, xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes:
> Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
> on Federal R&D funding.
>
> Very briefly, all R&D is being shifted to gaining current
> competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
> does not have as much commercial utility.
> --
> Chuck Divine
Gulp.
[Disclaimer: This opinion is mine and does not represent the views of
Fermilab, Universities Research Association, the Department of Energy,
or the 49th Ward Regular Science Fiction Organization.]
--
O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/
- ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
/ \ (_) (_) / | \
| | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
\ / Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
- - Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
~ SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Re Science News article on Federal RD
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 24
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
Just a pointer to the article in the current Science News article
on Federal RD funding
Very briefly all RD is being shifted to gaining current
competitive advantage from things like military and other work that
does not have as much commercial utility
Chuck Divine
Gulp
[Disclaimer This opinion is mine and does not represent the views of
Fermilab Universities Research Association the Department of Energy
or the 49th Ward Regular Science Fiction Organization]
O _ _ _ _ \
_ _ _ _\zap
\ _ _ \
Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
\ Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 16
In article <C5szvL.I48@oakhill.sps.mot.com> dong@oakhill.sps.mot.com writes:
>>I'd be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger, but $1G might be enough.
>
>this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie. wouldn't there be
>a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
>to get the dough? if you have a 1:100 chance and it costs you $10Mil,
>then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero.
>just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
>rich.
Any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that
you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability,
rather than a lucky one-shot. It can be done.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 16
In article dongoakhillspsmotcom writes
Id be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but 1G might be enough
this all sounds like that Indecent Proposal movie wouldnt there be
a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just
to get the dough if you have a 1100 chance and it costs you 10Mil
then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero
just send up a few dozen and 1 is bound to survive enough to make YOU
rich
Any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that
you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability
rather than a lucky oneshot It can be done
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: todd@phad.la.locus.com (Todd Johnson)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Lines: 28
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
;From the article "What's New" Apr-16-93 in sci.physics.research:
;
;........
;WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
;
;1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
;What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
;it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
;Is NASA really supporting this junk?
;Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
;Really, really depressed.
;
; Enzo
I wouldn't worry about it. There's enough space debris up there that
a mile-long inflatable would probably deflate in some very short
period of time (less than a year) while cleaning up LEO somewhat.
Sort of a giant fly-paper in orbit.
Hmm, that could actually be useful.
As for advertising -- sure, why not? A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we'd need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon. Fortunately, we sobered up in the morning.
<todd>
after prepro From toddphadlalocuscom Todd Johnson
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Locus Computing Corporation Los Angeles California
Lines 28
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
From the article Whats New Apr1693 in sciphysicsresearch
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
Is NASA really supporting this junk
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Really really depressed
Enzo
I wouldnt worry about it Theres enough space debris up there that
a milelong inflatable would probably deflate in some very short
period of time less than a year while cleaning up LEO somewhat
Sort of a giant flypaper in orbit
Hmm that could actually be useful
As for advertising sure why not A NASA friend and I spent one
drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar wed need
to put the golden arches of a certain American fast food organization
on the face of the Moon Fortunately we sobered up in the morning
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 12
In article <bissda.4.734849678@saturn.wwc.edu>
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> The arguements he uses I am summing up. The book is about whether
>Jesus was God or not. I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
>others have to say.
Read the FAQ first, watch the list fr some weeks, and come back then.
And read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 12
In article
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
The arguements he uses I am summing up The book is about whether
Jesus was God or not I know many of you dont believe but listen to a
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
others have to say
Read the FAQ first watch the list fr some weeks and come back then
And read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Vast Bandwidth Over-runs on NASA thread (was Re: NASA "Wraps")
In-Reply-To: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov's message of 18 Apr 1993 13:56 CDT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
<17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu> <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>
<18APR199313560620@judy.uh.edu>
Lines: 12
In article <18APR199313560620@judy.uh.edu>, Dennis writes about a
zillion lines in response to article <1993Apr18.034101.21934@iti.org>,
in which Allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article
<17APR199316423628@judy.uh.edu>, in which Dennis wrote another zillion
lines in response to Allen.
Hey, can it you guys. Take it to email, or talk.politics.space, or
alt.flame, or alt.music.pop.will.eat.itself.the.poppies.are.on.patrol,
or anywhere, but this is sci.space. This thread lost all scientific
content many moons ago.
Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
after prepro From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Vast Bandwidth Overruns on NASA thread was Re NASA Wraps
InReplyTo wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGovs message of 18 Apr 1993 1356 CDT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
17APR199316423628judyuhedu 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg
18APR199313560620judyuhedu
Lines 12
In article 18APR199313560620judyuhedu Dennis writes about a
zillion lines in response to article 1993Apr1803410121934itiorg
in which Allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article
17APR199316423628judyuhedu in which Dennis wrote another zillion
lines in response to Allen
Hey can it you guys Take it to email or talkpoliticsspace or
altflame or altmusicpopwilleatitselfthepoppiesareonpatrol
or anywhere but this is scispace This thread lost all scientific
content many moons ago
Nick Haines nickhcmuedu
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Biblical Rape
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
<1p387f$jh3@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1993Mar29.010116.18203@watson.ibm.com>
<16BA0D964.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>
<1993Apr01.184110.33851@watson.ibm.com>
<16BA4ADAC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>
<1993Apr03.012536.18323@watson.ibm.com> <16BA6C534.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> <1993Apr04.225107.39364@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 154
In article <1993Apr04.225107.39364@watson.ibm.com>
strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
(Deletion)
>
>The thread "Biblical Rape" was initiated by David O Hunt.
>Here is his posting:
>In article <8feu_KO00XsF0kpc5p@andrew.cmu.edu>, David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU> writes:
>|> I'm pretty sure I've seen biblical rules for when it's allowable to rape
>|> prisoners, what the codes are about that, etc. Could some more
>|> knowledgable soul than I please let me know some references?
>
>He asked a very narrow question, and I gave a very narrow answer.
>
Yes, sorry. I have got that wrong. My apology.
(Deletion)
>No. David Hunt's post didn't mention a god, nor did my response.
>You were the first to bring up the idea of the Bible being "given
>by god". Most Jews don't believe this in any literal sense.
>
So? No fun, but I must have met the minority then.
And "given by god" refers to any action whereby a god
god causes or better effects something.
Rob, I am not intimate with Jewish theology, but I understand
that you are a Messianic Jew. Correct me if I am wrong, but
it appears that the views of Messianic Jews on metaphysics
is different to that of the majority of Jews. While Jewish
theology overall is quite distinct from the Christianic god
views, I have heard that it is possible for Jews to attribute
evil to their god, an no-no for Christians, the Bible is
still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man.
(Deletion)
>No. I thought we agreed that though Jews disagree,
>there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon,
>one of which is that the commandments are accessible
>and written in the language of the time, and another
>of which is that there must be a legal system to update them.
>
The context was metaphysics, even when the process of adapting
the commandments is not transcendent, the justification of the
process lie in metaphysic specualtion. I wonder how you break
out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system.
(Deletion)
>Could you explain this with respect to the original commandments
>being discussed --- that is, the commandment that says if
>you feel like raping a woman prisoner, you should instead
>wait and marry her? What about "the way this commandment
>is given" invalidates it?
>
Is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other
reprehensible deeds. The context is repulsive, and it is
foul play, IMO, to invoke some relatively enlightened passages
as an example for the content of the whole book.
(Big deletion)
>|>
>|> The point is that I see that there is a necessary connection
>|> between the theology you use and the interpretation of the Bible.
>|>
>
>Only very loosely. My interpretation of the Bible is
>based on a long tradition of Jewish scholars interpreting
>the Bible. Theology doesn't really enter into it ---
>there are Jewish atheists who interpret the laws of
>charity essentially the same way I do.
>
No, not the interpretation of some laws, but the interpretation of
the bible. As in the example that Sodom and Gomorrha mean argue
with god. The whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows
you to argue with a god (whatever that means, that alone is a theo-
logic question) is proof of a theology used.
>|> >You pose another metaphysical riddle!
>|>
>|> No, you do.
>|>
>
>Well, you wrote this:
>|> Fine. So we have some major spirit with neither absolute power
>|> nor absolute knowledge. And, as it appears, limited means or will
>|> to communicate with us. Some form of spiritual big friend.
>|> Do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual?
>|>
>|> Am I right in the assumption that it cannot have created the
>|> universe as well? And that the passages in the Bible referring
>|> to that or its omnipotence are crap?
>
>That's what I meant by the "riddle".
>
It is an important question in the light of what for instance the
passage witrh Sodom and Gomorrha means. Either there is some connection
between the text, the fact that it exists, and your interpretation of
it, or it is purely arbitrary.. Further, the question is why is has
one to carry the burden of Biblical texts when one could simply write
other books that convey the message better. You might answer that one
can't becuase some peculiar Biblical information might be lost, but
that holds true of every other book, and the question remains why has
the Bible still a special place? Can't it be replaced somehow? Is it
ok to bargain the dangerous content of the Bible against some other
message that is included as well?
(Deletion)
>|> Do you see the danger in doing so? Especially with the metaphers used
>|> in the Bible?
>
>I think the danger of doing so is less than either the
>danger of having a frozen system of laws, or having no laws.
>
Sorry, but there are worse systems does not say anything about if
one could not have a better system.
(Deletion)
>If we
>read two stories about the importance of helping the poor,
>and in one God is a spirit, and in the other God has a body,
>which is more important, helping the poor, or resolving
>the contradiction about the corporeal nature of God?
>
If we read two stories in the Bible, one that god commands people
to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills
children directly, what is more important to resolve, the message that
children are to be killed or if it has to be done by god?
And the argument you have given is a fallacy, while it may not be important
in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not, it
can be crucial in other questions. Religious believers resolve contradictions
with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way,
and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some
god.
One cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what
is good depends on the question.
Benedikt
after prepro Subject Re Biblical Rape
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
1p387fjh3fidoasdsgicom 1993Mar2901011618203watsonibmcom
16BA0D964I3150101dbstu1rztubsde
1993Apr0118411033851watsonibmcom
16BA4ADACI3150101dbstu1rztubsde
1993Apr0301253618323watsonibmcom 16BA6C534I3150101dbstu1rztubsde 1993Apr0422510739364watsonibmcom
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 154
In article 1993Apr0422510739364watsonibmcom
stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
Deletion
The thread Biblical Rape was initiated by David O Hunt
Here is his posting
In article 8feu_KO00XsF0kpc5pandrewcmuedu David O Hunt writes
Im pretty sure Ive seen biblical rules for when its allowable to rape
prisoners what the codes are about that etc Could some more
knowledgable soul than I please let me know some references
He asked a very narrow question and I gave a very narrow answer
Yes sorry I have got that wrong My apology
Deletion
No David Hunts post didnt mention a god nor did my response
You were the first to bring up the idea of the Bible being given
by god Most Jews dont believe this in any literal sense
So No fun but I must have met the minority then
And given by god refers to any action whereby a god
god causes or better effects something
Rob I am not intimate with Jewish theology but I understand
that you are a Messianic Jew Correct me if I am wrong but
it appears that the views of Messianic Jews on metaphysics
is different to that of the majority of Jews While Jewish
theology overall is quite distinct from the Christianic god
views I have heard that it is possible for Jews to attribute
evil to their god an nono for Christians the Bible is
still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man
Deletion
No I thought we agreed that though Jews disagree
there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon
one of which is that the commandments are accessible
and written in the language of the time and another
of which is that there must be a legal system to update them
The context was metaphysics even when the process of adapting
the commandments is not transcendent the justification of the
process lie in metaphysic specualtion I wonder how you break
out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system
Deletion
Could you explain this with respect to the original commandments
being discussed that is the commandment that says if
you feel like raping a woman prisoner you should instead
wait and marry her What about the way this commandment
is given invalidates it
Is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other
reprehensible deeds The context is repulsive and it is
foul play IMO to invoke some relatively enlightened passages
as an example for the content of the whole book
Big deletion
The point is that I see that there is a necessary connection
between the theology you use and the interpretation of the Bible
Only very loosely My interpretation of the Bible is
based on a long tradition of Jewish scholars interpreting
the Bible Theology doesnt really enter into it
there are Jewish atheists who interpret the laws of
charity essentially the same way I do
No not the interpretation of some laws but the interpretation of
the bible As in the example that Sodom and Gomorrha mean argue
with god The whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows
you to argue with a god whatever that means that alone is a theo
logic question is proof of a theology used
You pose another metaphysical riddle
No you do
Well you wrote this
Fine So we have some major spirit with neither absolute power
nor absolute knowledge And as it appears limited means or will
to communicate with us Some form of spiritual big friend
Do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual
Am I right in the assumption that it cannot have created the
universe as well And that the passages in the Bible referring
to that or its omnipotence are crap
Thats what I meant by the riddle
It is an important question in the light of what for instance the
passage witrh Sodom and Gomorrha means Either there is some connection
between the text the fact that it exists and your interpretation of
it or it is purely arbitrary Further the question is why is has
one to carry the burden of Biblical texts when one could simply write
other books that convey the message better You might answer that one
cant becuase some peculiar Biblical information might be lost but
that holds true of every other book and the question remains why has
the Bible still a special place Cant it be replaced somehow Is it
ok to bargain the dangerous content of the Bible against some other
message that is included as well
Deletion
Do you see the danger in doing so Especially with the metaphers used
in the Bible
I think the danger of doing so is less than either the
danger of having a frozen system of laws or having no laws
Sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about if
one could not have a better system
Deletion
If we
read two stories about the importance of helping the poor
and in one God is a spirit and in the other God has a body
which is more important helping the poor or resolving
the contradiction about the corporeal nature of God
If we read two stories in the Bible one that god commands people
to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills
children directly what is more important to resolve the message that
children are to be killed or if it has to be done by god
And the argument you have given is a fallacy while it may not be important
in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not it
can be crucial in other questions Religious believers resolve contradictions
with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way
and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some
god
One cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what
is good depends on the question
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: dewey@risc.sps.mot.com (Dewey Henize)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Motorola, Inc. -- Austin,TX
Lines: 43
NNTP-Posting-Host: rtfm.sps.mot.com
Is it just me, or has this part gotten beyond useful?
Gregg is not, as I understand his posts, giving any support to the bounty
on Rushdie's life. If that's correct, end of one point...
Gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most Westerners don't accept.
His comments about Islamic Law I think make a great deal of sense to him,
and are even making a _little_ sense to me now - if a person is a member
of a group (religion or whatever) they bind themselves to follow the ways
of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum.
The big bone of contention here that I'm picking up is that in the West
we have secular governments that maintain, more or less, a level of control
and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups. I think
the majority of us reading this thread are in tune (note - I didn't say
"in agreement") with the idea that you are finally responsible to the
secular government, and within that to the group or groups a person may
have chosen.
With that in mind, it not possible under secular law ("legally" as most
people would define the term) to hold a person to a particular group once
they decide to separate from it. Only if the secular authorities agree
that there is a requirement of some sort (contractual, etc) is there
any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past
group member.
A religion can, and often does, believe in and require additional duties
of a group member. And it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties
in many ways - ostracism is common for example. But the limit comes when
the enforcement would impose unwanted and/or unaccepted onus on a person
_in conflict with secular law_.
This is the difference. In a theocracy, the requirements of the secular
authorities are, by definition, congruent with the religious authorities.
Outside a theocracy, this is not _necessarily_ true. Religious requirements
_may_ coincide or may not. Similiarly, religious consequences _may_ or
may not coincide with secular consequences (if any).
Regards,
Dew
--
Dewey Henize Sys/Net admin RISC hardware (512) 891-8637 pager 928-7447 x 9637
after prepro From deweyriscspsmotcom Dewey Henize
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Motorola Inc AustinTX
Lines 43
NNTPPostingHost rtfmspsmotcom
Is it just me or has this part gotten beyond useful
Gregg is not as I understand his posts giving any support to the bounty
on Rushdies life If thats correct end of one point
Gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most Westerners dont accept
His comments about Islamic Law I think make a great deal of sense to him
and are even making a _little_ sense to me now if a person is a member
of a group religion or whatever they bind themselves to follow the ways
of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum
The big bone of contention here that Im picking up is that in the West
we have secular governments that maintain more or less a level of control
and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups I think
the majority of us reading this thread are in tune note I didnt say
in agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible to the
secular government and within that to the group or groups a person may
have chosen
With that in mind it not possible under secular law legally as most
people would define the term to hold a person to a particular group once
they decide to separate from it Only if the secular authorities agree
that there is a requirement of some sort contractual etc is there
any secular _enforcement_ allowed by a group to a group member or past
group member
A religion can and often does believe in and require additional duties
of a group member And it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties
in many ways ostracism is common for example But the limit comes when
the enforcement would impose unwanted andor unaccepted onus on a person
_in conflict with secular law_
This is the difference In a theocracy the requirements of the secular
authorities are by definition congruent with the religious authorities
Outside a theocracy this is not _necessarily_ true Religious requirements
_may_ coincide or may not Similiarly religious consequences _may_ or
may not coincide with secular consequences if any
Regards
Dew
Dewey Henize SysNet admin RISC hardware 512 8918637 pager 9287447 x 9637
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 47
In <lsran6INN14a@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> emarsh@hernes-sun.Eng.Sun.COM (Eric
Marsh) writes:
>In article <C5HqxJ.JDG@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> lis450bw@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (lis450
Student) writes:
>>Hmmmm. Define objective morality. Well, depends upon who you talk to.
>>Some say it means you can't have your hair over your ears, and others say
>>it means Stryper is acceptable. _I_ would say that general principles
>>of objective morality would be listed in one or two places.
>>Ten Commandments
>>Sayings of Jesus
>>the first depends on whether you trust the Bible,
>>the second depends on both whether you think Jesus is God, and whether
>> you think we have accurate copies of the NT.
>Gong!
>Take a moment and look at what you just wrote. First you defined
>an "objective" morality and then you qualified this "objective" morality
>with subjective justifications. Do you see the error in this?
>Sorry, you have just disqualified yourself, but please play again.
>>MAC
>>
>eric
Huh? Please explain. Is there a problem because I based my morality on
something that COULD be wrong? Gosh, there's a heck of a lot of stuff that I
believe that COULD be wrong, and that comes from sources that COULD be wrong.
What do you base your belief on atheism on? Your knowledge and reasoning?
COuldn't that be wrong?
MAC
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 47
In emarshhernessunEngSunCOM Eric
Marsh writes
In article lis450bwux1csouiucedu lis450
Student writes
Hmmmm Define objective morality Well depends upon who you talk to
Some say it means you cant have your hair over your ears and others say
it means Stryper is acceptable _I_ would say that general principles
of objective morality would be listed in one or two places
Ten Commandments
Sayings of Jesus
the first depends on whether you trust the Bible
the second depends on both whether you think Jesus is God and whether
you think we have accurate copies of the NT
Gong
Take a moment and look at what you just wrote First you defined
an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality
with subjective justifications Do you see the error in this
Sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again
MAC
eric
Huh Please explain Is there a problem because I based my morality on
something that COULD be wrong Gosh theres a heck of a lot of stuff that I
believe that COULD be wrong and that comes from sources that COULD be wrong
What do you base your belief on atheism on Your knowledge and reasoning
COuldnt that be wrong
MAC
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se (Thomas Enblom)
Subject: NAVSTAR positions
Reply-To: Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: eos8c29.ericsson.se
I've just read Richard Langley's latest "Navstar GPS Constellation Status".
It states that the latest satellite was placed in Orbit Plane Position C-3.
There is already one satellite in that position. I know that it's almost
ten years since that satellite was launched but it's still in operation so
why not use it until it goes off?
Why not instead place the new satellite at B-4 since that position is empty
and by this measure have an almost complete GPS-constellation
(23 out of 24)?
/Thomas
================================================================================
Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden
Thomas Enblom, just another employee.
after prepro From ThomasEnblomeosericssonse Thomas Enblom
Subject NAVSTAR positions
ReplyTo ThomasEnblomeosericssonse
Organization Ericsson Telecom AB
Lines 16
NntpPostingHost eos8c29ericssonse
Ive just read Richard Langleys latest Navstar GPS Constellation Status
It states that the latest satellite was placed in Orbit Plane Position C3
There is already one satellite in that position I know that its almost
ten years since that satellite was launched but its still in operation so
why not use it until it goes off
Why not instead place the new satellite at B4 since that position is empty
and by this measure have an almost complete GPSconstellation
23 out of 24
Thomas
Ericsson Telecom Stockholm Sweden
Thomas Enblom just another employee
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Lines: 47
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 47
In article <16BB112DFC.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
>Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 20:28:27 GMT
>In article <healta.136.734813153@saturn.wwc.edu>
>healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>
>(Deletion)
>>You also said,"Why did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did? Seems a
>>pretty sick way of going about creating a universe..."
>>
>>I'm gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson--forgive me, I used
>>to be a theology major.
>>First of all, I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle--
>>"the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan" (i borrowed a book title).
>>God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
>>decisions.
>(Deletion)
>
>An universe it has created. By the way, can you tell me why it is less
>tyrannic to let one of one's own creatures do what it likes to others?
>By your definitions, your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
>would happen - including every choice of Satan.
>
>Can you explain us what Free Will is, and how it goes along with omniscience?
>Didn't your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
>world? Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
>everything was fine for them? That the whole idea comes from the possibility
>to abuse power, something your god introduced according to your description?
>
>
>By the way, are you sure that you have read the FAQ? Especially the part
>about preaching?
> Benedikt
I don't feel that I'm preaching. I'm just trying to answer people's
questions and talking about my religion, my beliefs.
When it comes to what I post, I don't do it with the intent of converting
anyone. I don't expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what I
say with a grain of salt if they so wish.
I just state what I beleve, they ask me how I believeit and why and we all
go on.
If that's preaching, then I'm soory and I'll get off the soapbox.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Lines 47
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 47
In article 16BB112DFCI3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Date Thu 15 Apr 1993 202827 GMT
In article
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
Deletion
You also saidWhy did millions suffer for what Adam and Ee did Seems a
pretty sick way of going about creating a universe
Im gonna respond by giving a small theology lessonforgive me I used
to be a theology major
First of all I believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle
the Great Controversy betweed Christ and Satan i borrowed a book title
God has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making
decisions
Deletion
An universe it has created By the way can you tell me why it is less
tyrannic to let one of ones own creatures do what it likes to others
By your definitions your god has created Satan with full knowledge what
would happen including every choice of Satan
Can you explain us what Free Will is and how it goes along with omniscience
Didnt your god know everything that would happen even before it created the
world Why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if
everything was fine for them That the whole idea comes from the possibility
to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description
By the way are you sure that you have read the FAQ Especially the part
about preaching
Benedikt
I dont feel that Im preaching Im just trying to answer peoples
questions and talking about my religion my beliefs
When it comes to what I post I dont do it with the intent of converting
anyone I dont expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what I
say with a grain of salt if they so wish
I just state what I beleve they ask me how I believeit and why and we all
go on
If thats preaching then Im soory and Ill get off the soapbox
Tammy
preprocess doc From: loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
Subject: Re: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 7
In my last post I referred to Michael Adams as "Nick." Completely my
error; Nick Adams was a film and TV actor from the '50's and early '60's
(remember Johnny Yuma, The Rebel?). He was from my part of the country,
and Michael's email address of "nmsca[...]" probably helped confuse things
in my mind. Purely user headspace error on my part. Sorry.
Doug Loss
after prepro From lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
Subject Re Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
Organization Electrical and Computer Engineering Carnegie Mellon
Lines 7
In my last post I referred to Michael Adams as Nick Completely my
error Nick Adams was a film and TV actor from the 50s and early 60s
remember Johnny Yuma The Rebel He was from my part of the country
and Michaels email address of nmsca[] probably helped confuse things
in my mind Purely user headspace error on my part Sorry
Doug Loss
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 26
In article <1993Apr19.113255.27550@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
> >Fred, the problem with such reasoning is that for us non-believers
> >we need a better measurement tool to state that person A is a
> >real Muslim/Christian, while person B is not. As I know there are
> >no such tools, and anyone could believe in a religion, misuse its
> >power and otherwise make bad PR. It clearly shows the sore points
> >with religion -- in other words show me a movement that can't spin
> >off Khomeinis, Stalins, Davidians, Husseins... *).
>
> I don't think such a system exists. I think the reason for that is an
> condition known as "free will". We humans have got it. Anybody, using
> their free-will, can tell lies and half-truths about *any* system and
> thus abuse it for their own ends.
I don't think such tools exist either. In addition, there's no such
thing as objective information. All together, it looks like religion
and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose.
This all reminds me of Descartes' whispering deamon. You can't trust
anything. So why bother.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 26
In article 1993Apr1911325527550monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
Fred the problem with such reasoning is that for us nonbelievers
we need a better measurement tool to state that person A is a
real MuslimChristian while person B is not As I know there are
no such tools and anyone could believe in a religion misuse its
power and otherwise make bad PR It clearly shows the sore points
with religion in other words show me a movement that cant spin
off Khomeinis Stalins Davidians Husseins
I dont think such a system exists I think the reason for that is an
condition known as free will We humans have got it Anybody using
their freewill can tell lies and halftruths about any system and
thus abuse it for their own ends
I dont think such tools exist either In addition theres no such
thing as objective information All together it looks like religion
and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose
This all reminds me of Descartes whispering deamon You cant trust
anything So why bother
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 187
Bill Conner (bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu) wrote:
: There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
: that are a little confusing. An atheist is one for whom all things can
: be understood as processes of nature - exclusively.
This definition does not include all atheists (see the FAQ). However,
I (for one) do think there is no need to invoke any divine or
spiritual explanations.
It makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood
as natural processes, and to claim that our observations do not
require us to postulate any divine intervention, or anything spiritual,
for that matter. Humans are not omnipotent, and neither is science.
However, science has one advantage theology doesn't: it is self-
correcting, with nature as its judge.
It is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self-
consistent, simple picture of our universe. Science is no longer
a bunch of separate branches, it is one. From particle physics to
psychology. And no aspect of our life, or our universe, is safe
from its stern and stony eye. Not even our consciousness.
There is no need
: for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything. There is
: no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
: physics, chemistry, biology, etc.; everything is random, nothing is
: determnined.
Actually, determinism vs. indeterminism is a philosophical question,
and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow
superdeterministic or not. I think the question does not have
any meaning, as far as individual human beings go. If their apparent
free will is an illusion, it does not appear to be so from their
perspective. Bill, can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free
will or not?
: This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
: its products. There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
: acquire intelligence, it's just a happy accident.
Maybe. Who are we to tell? It seems intelligence is useful - when
during the history of Earth has _one species_ been able to control
one third of the whole biosphere? This can still be a result of
numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates
and preserves. Even that machinery can be result of the same
principle - only the systems that can start replicating will
survive, those which don't don't make it. (Recommended reading: t.o)
: For an atheist, no
: event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
: value than another in any naturalistic sense, and no thought -about-
: an event can have value.
From whose perspective? I value events and things subjectively, from
my perspective. Nature does not have values, because it does not have
a perspective - values arise from awareness. If I have a subjective
perspective, it is easy to assume that other people also do, and if
I think about what it would it be like in their position, I will
eventually discover the Golden Rule. Morality is not necessarily
a gift from heavens, in fact, it may be a product of evolution.
Perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity
is helpful, allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect
others who seem to have identity, too.
Bill, have you ever read Aristotle? Try his Ethica Nikomakhea (sp.)
for starters.
: How then can an atheist judge value? What is the basis for criticizing
: the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God? On
: what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned? It
: seems that, in judging the values that motivate others to action, you
: have to have some standard against which conduct is measured, but what
: in nature can serve that purpose? What law of nature can you invoke to
: establish your values.
C.S. Lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why
he abandoned his atheism and became Christian. The argument is
severely flawed.
Some values, such as the Golden Rule, can have a rational basis. Some
others, like the basic idea of wanting to live, has probably its
roots in the way our brains are wired. Lewis ignored the very real
possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic
behaviour, and morality as well. Indeed, as humans evolved better
and better in building and using tools, they also became better
at killing each other. It is a logical necessity that evolution could
only favour those who knew how to use tools, but not against one's
own people.
The Bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early Jews
was not beyond this. A simple set of rules to hold the people
together, under one god. Their god did not care much about people
of other nations.
At the time of the NT, things were quite different - the Jews
were under rule of an _empire_, and could no longer simply ignore
the Gentiles. A new situation required a new morality, and along
with it a new religion was born. (A mutation in a meme pool.)
: Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event, what
: difference could it possibly make what -anyone- does, religious or
: otherwise, there can be no -meaning- or gradation of value. The only
: way an atheist can object to -any- behaviour is to admit that the
: objection is entirely subjective and that he(she) just doesn't like it
: - that's it. Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
: that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
: no weight in any "absolute" sense.
It looks like you haven't bothered to read philosophy. Whenever there
is an observer, there is a subjective point of view, which may
value its existence and happiness (even if that were just a result
of some physical event), and other's happiness, too, if the observer
comes to think about it. In an absolutely objective sense, that is,
without any observers or subjects, moral judgments lose their
meaning.
It is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of
view. This includes gods, too, their values are only _their_
personal judgments, not absolute truths, since such truths
do not exist.
The fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others
is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence
by becoming social beings who can think and value others'
existence.
Morality is not property of humans alone - chimps, dolphins and
many other species show great care for each other. Dolphins have
sometimes saved humans from drowning, a good deed indeed.
: That you don't like what God told people to do says nothing about God
: or God's commands, it says only that there was an electrical event in your
: nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
: with a pre-existing thought-set to form that reaction. That your
: objections -seem- well founded is due to the way you've been
: conditioned; there is no "truth" content. The whole of your
: intellectual landscape is an illusion, a virtual reality.
The last statement does not logically follow. In fact, there is
every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very
well, and our senses can convey reliable information. Solipsism
is still a logical possibility, but not a very likely one.
You are continuously mixing two different views: the subjective
point of view (which we all share) and an objective point of view,
_which does not exist_. Any observer or thinker, any personal being,
has its own point of view. It does not matter whether this point
of view is a result of some physical events or not, it does not
cease to be subjective.
From a non-observers non-point of view, values do not exist. Neither
does pain, or pleasure, or beauty, or love. Such things are
inherently subjective.
Once again, if god wants wives to submit to their husbands, or even
to make a leap of faith into the unknown, or wants to punish us if
we don't, I disagree with his morals. I do not think my morals come
from any supreme being - to remove my morals means the same than
to make me a zombie, a machine without a single thought. If god
gave us morality to judge, but I disagree with him, it is not my
fault. He is free to replace my morals. I cannot see what is the
point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one's
own and then to get mad at this.
God must be schizophrenic.
: All of this being so, you have excluded
: yourself from any discussion of values, right, wrong, goood, evil,
: etc. and cannot participate. Your opinion about the Bible can have no
: weight whatsoever.
Neither can the opinion of any god, for that matter. I cannot understand
why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way
less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else.
Bill, take note: Absolute values must be independent of _any_ being,
_including_ gods. If god has a subjective viewpoint, it is his
own point of view, and his morals are his own.
Petri
--
___. .'*''.* Petri Pihko kem-pmp@ Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' . Pihatie 15 C finou.oulu.fi Physics is the Rule of
' *' .* '* SF-90650 OULU kempmp@ the Game.
*' * .* FINLAND phoenix.oulu.fi -> Chemistry is The Game.
after prepro From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 187
Bill Conner bilokcforumosrheedu wrote
There are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread
that are a little confusing An atheist is one for whom all things can
be understood as processes of nature exclusively
This definition does not include all atheists see the FAQ However
I for one do think there is no need to invoke any divine or
spiritual explanations
It makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood
as natural processes and to claim that our observations do not
require us to postulate any divine intervention or anything spiritual
for that matter Humans are not omnipotent and neither is science
However science has one advantage theology doesnt it is self
correcting with nature as its judge
It is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self
consistent simple picture of our universe Science is no longer
a bunch of separate branches it is one From particle physics to
psychology And no aspect of our life or our universe is safe
from its stern and stony eye Not even our consciousness
There is no need
for any recourse to Divnity to describe or explain anything There is
no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by
physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is
determnined
Actually determinism vs indeterminism is a philosophical question
and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow
superdeterministic or not I think the question does not have
any meaning as far as individual human beings go If their apparent
free will is an illusion it does not appear to be so from their
perspective Bill can you say _for sure_ whether you have a free
will or not
This would also have to include human intelligence of course and all
its products There is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it
acquire intelligence its just a happy accident
Maybe Who are we to tell It seems intelligence is useful when
during the history of Earth has _one species_ been able to control
one third of the whole biosphere This can still be a result of
numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates
and preserves Even that machinery can be result of the same
principle only the systems that can start replicating will
survive those which dont dont make it Recommended reading to
For an atheist no
event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less
value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about
an event can have value
From whose perspective I value events and things subjectively from
my perspective Nature does not have values because it does not have
a perspective values arise from awareness If I have a subjective
perspective it is easy to assume that other people also do and if
I think about what it would it be like in their position I will
eventually discover the Golden Rule Morality is not necessarily
a gift from heavens in fact it may be a product of evolution
Perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity
is helpful allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect
others who seem to have identity too
Bill have you ever read Aristotle Try his Ethica Nikomakhea sp
for starters
How then can an atheist judge value What is the basis for criticizing
the values ennumerated in the Bible or the purposes imputed to God On
what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned It
seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you
have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what
in nature can serve that purpose What law of nature can you invoke to
establish your values
CS Lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why
he abandoned his atheism and became Christian The argument is
severely flawed
Some values such as the Golden Rule can have a rational basis Some
others like the basic idea of wanting to live has probably its
roots in the way our brains are wired Lewis ignored the very real
possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic
behaviour and morality as well Indeed as humans evolved better
and better in building and using tools they also became better
at killing each other It is a logical necessity that evolution could
only favour those who knew how to use tools but not against ones
own people
The Bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early Jews
was not beyond this A simple set of rules to hold the people
together under one god Their god did not care much about people
of other nations
At the time of the NT things were quite different the Jews
were under rule of an _empire_ and could no longer simply ignore
the Gentiles A new situation required a new morality and along
with it a new religion was born A mutation in a meme pool
Since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what
difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or
otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value The only
way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the
objection is entirely subjective and that heshe just doesnt like it
thats it Any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer
that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries
no weight in any absolute sense
It looks like you havent bothered to read philosophy Whenever there
is an observer there is a subjective point of view which may
value its existence and happiness even if that were just a result
of some physical event and others happiness too if the observer
comes to think about it In an absolutely objective sense that is
without any observers or subjects moral judgments lose their
meaning
It is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of
view This includes gods too their values are only _their_
personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths
do not exist
The fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others
is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence
by becoming social beings who can think and value others
existence
Morality is not property of humans alone chimps dolphins and
many other species show great care for each other Dolphins have
sometimes saved humans from drowning a good deed indeed
That you dont like what God told people to do says nothing about God
or Gods commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your
nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled
with a preexisting thoughtset to form that reaction That your
objections seem well founded is due to the way youve been
conditioned there is no truth content The whole of your
intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality
The last statement does not logically follow In fact there is
every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very
well and our senses can convey reliable information Solipsism
is still a logical possibility but not a very likely one
You are continuously mixing two different views the subjective
point of view which we all share and an objective point of view
_which does not exist_ Any observer or thinker any personal being
has its own point of view It does not matter whether this point
of view is a result of some physical events or not it does not
cease to be subjective
From a nonobservers nonpoint of view values do not exist Neither
does pain or pleasure or beauty or love Such things are
inherently subjective
Once again if god wants wives to submit to their husbands or even
to make a leap of faith into the unknown or wants to punish us if
we dont I disagree with his morals I do not think my morals come
from any supreme being to remove my morals means the same than
to make me a zombie a machine without a single thought If god
gave us morality to judge but I disagree with him it is not my
fault He is free to replace my morals I cannot see what is the
point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with ones
own and then to get mad at this
God must be schizophrenic
All of this being so you have excluded
yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil
etc and cannot participate Your opinion about the Bible can have no
weight whatsoever
Neither can the opinion of any god for that matter I cannot understand
why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way
less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else
Bill take note Absolute values must be independent of _any_ being
_including_ gods If god has a subjective viewpoint it is his
own point of view and his morals are his own
Petri
___ Petri Pihko kempmp Mathematics is the Truth
___ Pihatie 15 C finououlufi Physics is the Rule of
SF90650 OULU kempmp the Game
FINLAND phoenixoulufi Chemistry is The Game
preprocess doc From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines: 47
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
>The pope is jewish.... I guess they're right, and I always thought that
>the thing on his head was just a fancy hat, not a Jewish headpiece (I
>don't remember the name). It's all so clear now (clear as mud.)
As to what that headpiece is....
(by chort@crl.nmsu.edu)
SOURCE: AP NEWSWIRE
The Vatican, Home Of Genetic Misfits?
Michael A. Gillow, noted geneticist, has revealed some unusual data
after working undercover in the Vatican for the past 18 years. "The
Popehat(tm) is actually an advanced bone spur.", reveals Gillow in his
groundshaking report. Gillow, who had secretly studied the innermost
workings of the Vatican since returning from Vietnam in a wheel chair,
first approached the scientific community with his theory in the late
1950's.
"The whole hat thing, that was just a cover up. The Vatican didn't
want the Catholic Community(tm) to realize their leader was hefting
nearly 8 kilograms of extraneous bone tissue on the top of his
skull.", notes Gillow in his report. "There are whole laboratories in
the Vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow
experiments. What started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400's is now
scientifically engineered and bred for. The whole bone transplant idea
started in the mid sixties inspired by doctor Timothy Leary
transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats." Gillow is quick
to point out the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II and the
disappearance of Dr. Leary from the public eye.
"When it becomes time to replace the pope", says Gillow, "The old pope
and the replacement pope are locked in a padded chamber. They butt
heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance of the herd. The
victor emerges and has earned the privilege of inseminating the choir
boys."
P.
--
moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y Come, let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment - GeoffM
brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
after prepro From pmoloneymathstcdie Paul Moloney
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Lines 47
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
The pope is jewish I guess theyre right and I always thought that
the thing on his head was just a fancy hat not a Jewish headpiece I
dont remember the name Its all so clear now clear as mud
As to what that headpiece is
by chortcrlnmsuedu
SOURCE AP NEWSWIRE
The Vatican Home Of Genetic Misfits
Michael A Gillow noted geneticist has revealed some unusual data
after working undercover in the Vatican for the past 18 years The
Popehattm is actually an advanced bone spur reveals Gillow in his
groundshaking report Gillow who had secretly studied the innermost
workings of the Vatican since returning from Vietnam in a wheel chair
first approached the scientific community with his theory in the late
1950s
The whole hat thing that was just a cover up The Vatican didnt
want the Catholic Communitytm to realize their leader was hefting
nearly 8 kilograms of extraneous bone tissue on the top of his
skull notes Gillow in his report There are whole laboratories in
the Vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow
experiments What started as a genetic fluke in the mid 1400s is now
scientifically engineered and bred for The whole bone transplant idea
started in the mid sixties inspired by doctor Timothy Leary
transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats Gillow is quick
to point out the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II and the
disappearance of Dr Leary from the public eye
When it becomes time to replace the pope says Gillow The old pope
and the replacement pope are locked in a padded chamber They butt
heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance of the herd The
victor emerges and has earned the privilege of inseminating the choir
boys
P
moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y Come let us retract the foreskin of misconception
james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment GeoffM
brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
preprocess doc From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Guns for Space
Keywords: Sopa Gun, Space Launcer
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 22
In reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid
rockets as payloads. Thiokol provided me with samples and data on
a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations. Solid
motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of
aluminum in the mix. For example, the Space Shuttle SRBs are 16 percent
Aluminum. The technique is to use a 'foamed aluminum' structure.
The structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles (an I suspect
some bubbling process is used to form it). In other words, if you made
a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum, then froze it, this is what
you get. It forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in
all directions. The remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into
the voids, and you get aluminum-reinforced solid propellant. The
foamed-aluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant,
so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain. The major
improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking, which is the
principal failure mode for solid propellant.
Dani Eder
--
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
after prepro From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Guns for Space
Keywords Sopa Gun Space Launcer
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 22
In reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid
rockets as payloads Thiokol provided me with samples and data on
a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations Solid
motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of
aluminum in the mix For example the Space Shuttle SRBs are 16 percent
Aluminum The technique is to use a foamed aluminum structure
The structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles an I suspect
some bubbling process is used to form it In other words if you made
a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum then froze it this is what
you get It forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in
all directions The remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into
the voids and you get aluminumreinforced solid propellant The
foamedaluminum makes up about 6 percent of the total propellant
so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain The major
improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking which is the
principal failure mode for solid propellant
Dani Eder
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt
preprocess doc From: jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein)
Subject: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: Drexel University, College of Engineering, Philadelphia, PA
Lines: 8
Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times.
I would appreciate any advice.
Joe Wetstein
jpw@coe.drexel.edu
after prepro From jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein
Subject Sunrise sunset times
Organization Drexel University College of Engineering Philadelphia PA
Lines 8
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
I would appreciate any advice
Joe Wetstein
jpwcoedrexeledu
preprocess doc From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 18
Re: Space billboards
Even easier to implement than writing messages on the Moon, once upon
a time a group of space activists I belonged to in Seattle considered
a "Goodyear Blimp in orbit". The idea was to use a large structure
that could carry an array of lights like the Goodyear Blimp has.
Placed in a low Earth orbit of high inclination, it could eventually
be seen by almost everyone on Earth. Only our collective disapproval
of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing
it. It had quite feasible economics, which I will not post here
because I don't want to encourage the idea (if you want to do such
a thing, go figure it out for yourself).
Dani Eder
--
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
after prepro From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 18
Re Space billboards
Even easier to implement than writing messages on the Moon once upon
a time a group of space activists I belonged to in Seattle considered
a Goodyear Blimp in orbit The idea was to use a large structure
that could carry an array of lights like the Goodyear Blimp has
Placed in a low Earth orbit of high inclination it could eventually
be seen by almost everyone on Earth Only our collective disapproval
of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing
it It had quite feasible economics which I will not post here
because I dont want to encourage the idea if you want to do such
a thing go figure it out for yourself
Dani Eder
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: FAQs
Article-I.D.: mojo.1pst9uINN7tj
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <10505.2BBCB8C3@nss.org>, freed@nss.org (Bev Freed) writes:
>I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly
>. Every 28-30 days, I get this bloated feeling.
Or just stick 'em on sci.space.news every 28-30 days?
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re FAQs
ArticleID mojo1pst9uINN7tj
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article 105052BBCB8C3nssorg freednssorg Bev Freed writes
I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly
Every 2830 days I get this bloated feeling
Or just stick em on scispacenews every 2830 days
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 20
> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
> > >
> > > April 1973 83 jupiter radii
> > > August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
> > Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. ...
> Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
Same person?
--
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- The Prisoner
This article is in the public domain.
after prepro From msbsqsqcom Mark Brader
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization SoftQuad Inc Toronto Canada
Lines 20
Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius 71000 km 44000 mi 00005 AU
Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Information We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom The Prisoner
This article is in the public domain
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 18
In article <C5Jxru.2t8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>What do you base your belief on atheism on? Your knowledge and reasoning?
>COuldn't that be wrong?
>
Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. Ignorance of the
existence of any god. Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
because of their pride" mistake.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 18
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
What do you base your belief on atheism on Your knowledge and reasoning
COuldnt that be wrong
Actually my atheism is based on ignorance Ignorance of the
existence of any god Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
because of their pride mistake
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: drunen@nucleus.ps.uci.edu (Eric Van Drunen)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Nntp-Posting-Host: nucleus.ps.uci.edu
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 30
Actually, they are legal! I not familiar with the ad you are speaking of
but knowing Popular Science it is probably on the fringe. However, you
may be speaking of "Public Missle, Inc.", which is a legitimate company
that has been around for a while.
Due to advances in composite fuels, engines are now available for model
rockets using similar composites to SRB fuel, roughly 3 times more
powerful than black powder motors. They are even available in a reloadable
form, i.e. aluminum casing, end casings, o-rings (!). The engines range
from D all the way to M in common manufacture, N and O I've heard of
used at special occasions.
To be a model rocket, however, the rocket can't contain any metal
structural parts, amongst other requirements. I've never heard of a
model rocket doing 50,000. I have heard of > 20,000 foot flights.
These require FAA waivers (of course!). There are a few large national
launches (LDRS, FireBALLS), at which you can see many > K sized engine
flights. Actually, using a > G engine constitutes the area of "High
Power Rocketry", which is seperate from normal model rocketry. Purchase
of engines like I have been describing require membership in the National
Association of Rocketry, the Tripoli Rocketry Assoc., or you have to
be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry.
Amatuer rocketry is another area. I'm not really familiar with this,
but it is an area where metal parts are allowed, along with liquid fuels
and what not. I don't know what kind of regulations are involved, but
I'm sure they are numerous.
High power rocketry is very exciting! If you are interested or have
more questions, there is a newsgroup rec.model.rockets.
after prepro From drunennucleuspsuciedu Eric Van Drunen
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
NntpPostingHost nucleuspsuciedu
Organization University of California Irvine
Lines 30
Actually they are legal I not familiar with the ad you are speaking of
but knowing Popular Science it is probably on the fringe However you
may be speaking of Public Missle Inc which is a legitimate company
that has been around for a while
Due to advances in composite fuels engines are now available for model
rockets using similar composites to SRB fuel roughly 3 times more
powerful than black powder motors They are even available in a reloadable
form ie aluminum casing end casings orings The engines range
from D all the way to M in common manufacture N and O Ive heard of
used at special occasions
To be a model rocket however the rocket cant contain any metal
structural parts amongst other requirements Ive never heard of a
model rocket doing 50000 I have heard of 20000 foot flights
These require FAA waivers of course There are a few large national
launches LDRS FireBALLS at which you can see many K sized engine
flights Actually using a G engine constitutes the area of High
Power Rocketry which is seperate from normal model rocketry Purchase
of engines like I have been describing require membership in the National
Association of Rocketry the Tripoli Rocketry Assoc or you have to
be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry
Amatuer rocketry is another area Im not really familiar with this
but it is an area where metal parts are allowed along with liquid fuels
and what not I dont know what kind of regulations are involved but
Im sure they are numerous
High power rocketry is very exciting If you are interested or have
more questions there is a newsgroup recmodelrockets
preprocess doc From: Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado)
Subject: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Lines: 25
Reply address: mark.prado@permanet.org
> From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
>
> In article <1993Apr19.230236.18227@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>,
> daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis) writes:
> > |> AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration
> confernce> |> May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the
> auspices of AIAA.
>
> Thanks for typing that in, Steven.
>
> I hope you decide to go, Pat. The Net can use some eyes
> and ears there...
I plan to go. It's about 30 minutes away from my home.
I can report on some of it (from my perspective ...)
Anyone else on sci.space going to be there? If so, send me
netmail. Maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly...
I'll maintain a list of who's going.
mark.prado@permanet.org
* Origin: Just send it to bill.clinton@permanet.org
(1:109/349.2)
after prepro From MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado
Subject Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Lines 25
Reply address markpradopermanetorg
From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
In article 1993Apr1923023618227aiojscnasagov
davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis writes
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration
confernce May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the
auspices of AIAA
Thanks for typing that in Steven
I hope you decide to go Pat The Net can use some eyes
and ears there
I plan to go Its about 30 minutes away from my home
I can report on some of it from my perspective
Anyone else on scispace going to be there If so send me
netmail Maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly
Ill maintain a list of whos going
markpradopermanetorg
Origin Just send it to billclintonpermanetorg
11093492
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 32
Maddi Hausmann chirps:
>timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons) writes: >
>>First of all, you seem to be a reasonable guy. Why not try to be more >honest
>>and include my sentence afterwards that
>Honest, it just ended like that, I swear!
That's nice.
>Hmmmm...I recognize the warning signs...alternating polite and
>rude...coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder...calls
>people names and then makes nice...whirrr...click...whirrr
You forgot the third equality...whirrr...click...whirrr...see below...
>Whirr click whirr...Frank O'Dwyer might also be contained
>in that shell...pop stack to determine...whirr...click..whirr
>"Killfile" Keith Allen Schneider = Frank "Closet Theist" O'Dwyer = ...
= Maddi "The Mad Sound-O-Geek" Hausmann
...whirrr...click...whirrr
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 32
Maddi Hausmann chirps
timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons writes
First of all you seem to be a reasonable guy Why not try to be more honest
and include my sentence afterwards that
Honest it just ended like that I swear
Thats nice
HmmmmI recognize the warning signsalternating polite and
rudecoming into newsgroup with huge chip on shouldercalls
people names and then makes nicewhirrrclickwhirrr
You forgot the third equalitywhirrrclickwhirrrsee below
Whirr click whirrFrank ODwyer might also be contained
in that shellpop stack to determinewhirrclickwhirr
Killfile Keith Allen Schneider Frank Closet Theist ODwyer
Maddi The Mad SoundOGeek Hausmann
whirrrclickwhirrr
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dear Mr. Theist
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 31
<1993Apr5.024150.10193@wam.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po2.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.024150.10193@wam.umd.edu>
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> means to me. The full quote (Michael Crichton, _Jurrasic_Park_) was
> something like "The earth has existed quite contently for billions of
> years. We have been here but for the blink of an eye, and if we were gone
> tomorrow, the earth would not miss us.". I remember this quote to keep
> myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we
> are masters of this planet.
Cool quote.
> The earth doesn't need saving, it's existed quite happily with-
> out us, we are the ones who need saving.
Better watch it. The theists will jump on you for that... :-)
> Brian West.
> --
> THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE * -"To the Earth, we have been
> THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE * here but for the blink of an
> OK, SO IT'S A SIG FILE * eye, if we were gone tomorrow,
> posted by west@wam.umd.edu * we would not be missed."-
> who doesn't care who knows it. * (Jurassic Park)
> ** DICLAIMER: I said this, I meant this, nobody made me do it.**
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Dear Mr Theist
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 31
1993Apr502415010193wamumdedu
NNTPPostingHost po2andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr502415010193wamumdedu
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
means to me The full quote Michael Crichton _Jurrasic_Park_ was
something like The earth has existed quite contently for billions of
years We have been here but for the blink of an eye and if we were gone
tomorrow the earth would not miss us I remember this quote to keep
myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we
are masters of this planet
Cool quote
The earth doesnt need saving its existed quite happily with
out us we are the ones who need saving
Better watch it The theists will jump on you for that
Brian West
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE To the Earth we have been
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE here but for the blink of an
OK SO ITS A SIG FILE eye if we were gone tomorrow
posted by westwamumdedu we would not be missed
who doesnt care who knows it Jurassic Park
DICLAIMER I said this I meant this nobody made me do it
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
preprocess doc From: nether@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Joel C Belog)
Subject: Space Shuttle information wanted
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
Hello everyone,
I was hoping someone could help me out. I'm writing a program
for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low
orbit. There are two things I'd like to know, First, how much
time elapses between launch and the pitch over. Second, what is
the cross-sectional area of the shuttle, srb's, and ext. tank.
Thanks for any information, post or e-mail.
Joel Belog
nether@wpi.wpi.edu
after prepro From netherbigwpiWPIEDU Joel C Belog
Subject Space Shuttle information wanted
Organization Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost bigwpiwpiedu
Hello everyone
I was hoping someone could help me out Im writing a program
for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low
orbit There are two things Id like to know First how much
time elapses between launch and the pitch over Second what is
the crosssectional area of the shuttle srbs and ext tank
Thanks for any information post or email
Joel Belog
netherwpiwpiedu
preprocess doc From: MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc.
Lines: 51
In-Reply-To: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:32:04 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24
In <C5L1tG.K5q@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu writes:
> If some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok I
> would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong. My
> basis of morality is not on societal norms, or on current legalities. My
> basis is, surprise surprise, on both the Bible and on inherent moral
> abhorrences,
AH! But what, exactly, is "inherently abhorrent" and WHY is it so?
What you're saying is, in effect, "I think some things are repulsive,
and I know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me, so they
should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever, period".
Which in and of itself is nice enough; to some extent I agree with
you. But I do _not_ agree that things are 'inherently' or 'absolutely'
immoral; they are labeled 'immoral' each for its own good reason, and if
the reason can even theoretically change, then so can the label.
[...]
> Yes, that's vague, and the only way I know off the top of my head to
> defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made. Yes, that falls
> into the trap of creation,
No it doesn't. Humans are to some extent similar, because we all
belong to the same species; that that species has evolved is another
story altogether. To a certain extent evolution can even lend credence
to moral absolutism (of a flavour).
[...]
> My arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust, goodness,
> love, respect, courage, and honesty in any society rather than deceipt,
> hatred, disrespect, "cowardness", and dishonesty.
You're saying morality is what'll keep society alive and kicking.
It is, I think, up to a point; but societies are not all alike, and
neither are their moralities.
> No, I haven't been everywhere and
> seen everyone, but, according to my thesis, I don't have to, since I hold that
> we were all created similarly.
Similar != identical.
> If that makes an unfalsifiable thesis, just say
> so, and I'll both work out what I can and punt to fellow theists.
No, it's falsifiable through finding someoe who was "created
different", whatever that might be in the "real" world.
--
Disclaimer? "It's great to be young and insane!"
after prepro From MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Unorganized Usenet Postings UnInc
Lines 51
InReplyTo cobbalexialisuiucedus message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 153204 GMT
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 124
In cobbalexialisuiucedu writes
If some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok I
would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong My
basis of morality is not on societal norms or on current legalities My
basis is surprise surprise on both the Bible and on inherent moral
abhorrences
AH But what exactly is inherently abhorrent and WHY is it so
What youre saying is in effect I think some things are repulsive
and I know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me so they
should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period
Which in and of itself is nice enough to some extent I agree with
you But I do _not_ agree that things are inherently or absolutely
immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and if
the reason can even theoretically change then so can the label
[]
Yes thats vague and the only way I know off the top of my head to
defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made Yes that falls
into the trap of creation
No it doesnt Humans are to some extent similar because we all
belong to the same species that that species has evolved is another
story altogether To a certain extent evolution can even lend credence
to moral absolutism of a flavour
[]
My arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust goodness
love respect courage and honesty in any society rather than deceipt
hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty
Youre saying morality is whatll keep society alive and kicking
It is I think up to a point but societies are not all alike and
neither are their moralities
No I havent been everywhere and
seen everyone but according to my thesis I dont have to since I hold that
we were all created similarly
Similar identical
If that makes an unfalsifiable thesis just say
so and Ill both work out what I can and punt to fellow theists
No its falsifiable through finding someoe who was created
different whatever that might be in the real world
Disclaimer Its great to be young and insane
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>So how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings?
>Your theory would state that the more the human is detached from
>primitive behavior, the more violent and non-moralistic the human
>becomes (please correct me if my understanding was wrong). So
>you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people
>from the roof of a campus. Could you explain how your 'theory'
>explains such a situation?
Madmen are mad. Do we try to explain the output from a broken computer?
I think not.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re So how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings
Your theory would state that the more the human is detached from
primitive behavior the more violent and nonmoralistic the human
becomes please correct me if my understanding was wrong So
you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people
from the roof of a campus Could you explain how your theory
explains such a situation
Madmen are mad Do we try to explain the output from a broken computer
I think not
keith
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 67
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr15.072429.10206@sol.UVic.CA>, rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross Borden) writes:
> In article <734850108.F00002@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permanet.org (Mark Prado) writes:
>>
>>One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how
>>many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are
>>these individuals?
>>
> Quick! Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:
>
> "Hey, I read sci.space!"
>
> Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
> (This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
> the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")
A practical suggestion, to be sure, but one could *also* peek into
news.lists, where Brian Reid has posted "USENET Readership report for
Mar 93." Another posting called "USENET READERSHIP SUMMARY REPORT FOR
MAR 93" gives the methodology and caveats of Reid's survey. (These
postings failed to appear for a while-- I wonder why?-- but they are
now back.)
Reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers...
Sorry, Mark.
I suspect Mark, dangling out there on Fidonet, may not get news.lists
so I've mailed him copies of these reports.
The bottom line?
+-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide.
| +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population
| | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all
| | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month)
| | | | +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month)
| | | | | +-- Crossposting percentage
| | | | | | +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr
| | | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders
| | | | | | | | who read this group.
V V V V V V V V
88 62000 1493 80% 1958 4283.9 19% 0.10 2.9% sci.space
The first figure indicates that sci.space ranks 88th among most-read
newsgroups.
I've been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic
and readership. You might be entertained to see this.
Oct 91 55 71000 1387 84% 718 1865.2 21% 0.04 4.2% sci.space
Mar 92 43 85000 1741 82% 1207 2727.2 13% 0.06 4.1% sci.space
Jul 92 48 94000 1550 80% 1044 2448.3 12% 0.04 3.8% sci.space
May 92 45 94000 2023 82% 834 1744.8 13% 0.04 4.1% sci.space
(some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here)
Sep 92 45 51000 1690 80% 1420 3541.2 16% 0.11 3.6% sci.space
Nov 92 78 47000 1372 81% 1220 2633.2 17% 0.08 2.8% sci.space
(revision in ranking groups happens here(?))
Mar 93 88 62000 1493 80% 1958 4283.9 19% 0.10 2.9% sci.space
Possibly old Usenet hands could give me some more background on how to
interpret these figures, glitches, or the history of Reid's reporting
effort. Take it to e-mail-- it doesn't belong in sci.space.
Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | There grow roses and other posies
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | Fertilized by Clementine.
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS |
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 67
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1993Apr1507242910206solUVicCA rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross Borden writes
In article 734850108F00002permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permanetorg Mark Prado writes
One could go on and on and on here but I wonder how
many people read scispace and of what powerinfluence are
these individuals
Quick Everyone who sees this post a reply that says
Hey I read scispace
Then we can count them and find out how many there are
This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways
A practical suggestion to be sure but one could also peek into
newslists where Brian Reid has posted USENET Readership report for
Mar 93 Another posting called USENET READERSHIP SUMMARY REPORT FOR
MAR 93 gives the methodology and caveats of Reids survey These
postings failed to appear for a while I wonder why but they are
now back
Reid alas gives us no measure of the powerinfluence of readers
Sorry Mark
I suspect Mark dangling out there on Fidonet may not get newslists
so Ive mailed him copies of these reports
The bottom line
Estimated total number of people who read the group worldwide
Actual number of readers in sampled population
Propagation how many sites receive this group at all
Recent traffic messages per month
Recent traffic kilobytes per month
Crossposting percentage
Cost ratio USmonthrdr
Share of newsrders
who read this group
V V V V V V V V
88 62000 1493 80 1958 42839 19 010 29 scispace
The first figure indicates that scispace ranks 88th among mostread
newsgroups
Ive been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic
and readership You might be entertained to see this
Oct 91 55 71000 1387 84 718 18652 21 004 42 scispace
Mar 92 43 85000 1741 82 1207 27272 13 006 41 scispace
Jul 92 48 94000 1550 80 1044 24483 12 004 38 scispace
May 92 45 94000 2023 82 834 17448 13 004 41 scispace
some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here
Sep 92 45 51000 1690 80 1420 35412 16 011 36 scispace
Nov 92 78 47000 1372 81 1220 26332 17 008 28 scispace
revision in ranking groups happens here
Mar 93 88 62000 1493 80 1958 42839 19 010 29 scispace
Possibly old Usenet hands could give me some more background on how to
interpret these figures glitches or the history of Reids reporting
effort Take it to email it doesnt belong in scispace
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey In a churchyard in the valley
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Where the myrtle doth entwine
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET There grow roses and other posies
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV Fertilized by Clementine
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS
preprocess doc From: MAILRP%ESA.BITNET@vm.gmd.de
Subject: message from Space Digest
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 58
Joint Press release ESA/UN No 18-93
Paris, 19 April 1993
UN/ESA joint training course on satellite applications
to be held in Italy, 19-30 April
The United Nations and the European Space Agency (ESA)
are jointly organising a training course on the applications of
satellite data gathered by the European Remote Sensing
Satellite (ERS-1), to be held in Frascati, Italy, from 19 to 30
April. The training course will discuss the applications of
satellite data concerning natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment.
The training course, organised for the benefit of francophone
African experts, will be hosted by ESRIN, the European Space
Agency's establishment in Frascati, which is responsible for
coordination with the users of data from ESA's remote sensing
satellite. Twenty-four experts in the field of remote sensing,
selected from 19 francophone countries from northern, western
and central Africa, and three regional African centres, will
attend the two-week session. The course will focus on remote
sensing techniques and data applications, particularly ERS-1
data.
The ERS-1 satellite, developed by ESA and launched in 1991
with the European Ariane launcher, carries an advanced radar
instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing
missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year
2000. The aim of the training course is to increase the
potential of experts using the practical applications of radar
remote sensing systems to natural resources, renewable energy
and the environment, with particular emphasis on applications
to geology and mineral prospecting, oceanography and near-
coastal areas, agriculture, forestry and meteorology.
The education and practical training programme was
developed jointly by the United Nations and ESA. The
facilities and the technical support, as well as lecturers and
information documents for the training course, will be
provided by the Agency. Lecturers at the training course will
include high-level experts from other European and African
organisations active in remote sensing applications. Funds for
the training course are being provided by the United Nations
Trust Fund for New and Renewable Sources of Energy; the
primary contributor to that Fund is the Government of Italy.
A similar training course is being planned for Latin American
experts.
after prepro From MAILRPESABITNETvmgmdde
Subject message from Space Digest
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 58
Joint Press release ESAUN No 1893
Paris 19 April 1993
UNESA joint training course on satellite applications
to be held in Italy 1930 April
The United Nations and the European Space Agency ESA
are jointly organising a training course on the applications of
satellite data gathered by the European Remote Sensing
Satellite ERS1 to be held in Frascati Italy from 19 to 30
April The training course will discuss the applications of
satellite data concerning natural resources renewable energy
and the environment
The training course organised for the benefit of francophone
African experts will be hosted by ESRIN the European Space
Agencys establishment in Frascati which is responsible for
coordination with the users of data from ESAs remote sensing
satellite Twentyfour experts in the field of remote sensing
selected from 19 francophone countries from northern western
and central Africa and three regional African centres will
attend the twoweek session The course will focus on remote
sensing techniques and data applications particularly ERS1
data
The ERS1 satellite developed by ESA and launched in 1991
with the European Ariane launcher carries an advanced radar
instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing
missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year
2000 The aim of the training course is to increase the
potential of experts using the practical applications of radar
remote sensing systems to natural resources renewable energy
and the environment with particular emphasis on applications
to geology and mineral prospecting oceanography and near
coastal areas agriculture forestry and meteorology
The education and practical training programme was
developed jointly by the United Nations and ESA The
facilities and the technical support as well as lecturers and
information documents for the training course will be
provided by the Agency Lecturers at the training course will
include highlevel experts from other European and African
organisations active in remote sensing applications Funds for
the training course are being provided by the United Nations
Trust Fund for New and Renewable Sources of Energy the
primary contributor to that Fund is the Government of Italy
A similar training course is being planned for Latin American
experts
preprocess doc From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Distribution: sci
Lines: 18
In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>There has been something bothering me while watching
>NASA Select for a while. Well, I should'nt say
>bothering, maybe wondering would be better. When
>they are going to launch they say (sorry but I forget
>exactly who is saying what, OTC to PLT I think)
>"Clear caution & warning memory. Verify no unexpected
>errors. ...". I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>be. Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
In pure speculation, I would guess cautions based on hazardous
pre-launch ops would qualify. Something like "Caution: SRBs
have just been armed."
It does raise an interesting question as to how hard it is to
pick out an Expected Error from an Unexpected Error in the heat
of the moment.
after prepro From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center Robotics Lab
Distribution sci
Lines 18
In article ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
There has been something bothering me while watching
NASA Select for a while Well I shouldnt say
bothering maybe wondering would be better When
they are going to launch they say sorry but I forget
exactly who is saying what OTC to PLT I think
Clear caution warning memory Verify no unexpected
errors I am wondering what an expected error might
be Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
In pure speculation I would guess cautions based on hazardous
prelaunch ops would qualify Something like Caution SRBs
have just been armed
It does raise an interesting question as to how hard it is to
pick out an Expected Error from an Unexpected Error in the heat
of the moment
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 15
keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>>Perhaps we shouldn't imprision people if we could watch them closely
>>>instead. The cost would probably be similar, especially if we just
>>>implanted some sort of electronic device.
>>Why wait until they commit the crime? Why not implant such devices in
>>potential criminals like Communists and atheists?
>
> Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning. You are proposing to punish people
> *before* they commit a crime? What justification do you have for this?
Look up "irony", Keith.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re mathew writes
Perhaps we shouldnt imprision people if we could watch them closely
instead The cost would probably be similar especially if we just
implanted some sort of electronic device
Why wait until they commit the crime Why not implant such devices in
potential criminals like Communists and atheists
Sorry I dont follow your reasoning You are proposing to punish people
before they commit a crime What justification do you have for this
Look up irony Keith
mathew
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: thoughts on christians
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 24
Kent Sandvik (sandvik@newton.apple.com) wrote:
: > This is a good point, but I think "average" people do not take up Christianity
: > so much out of fear or escapism, but, quite simply, as a way to improve their
: > social life, or to get more involved with American culture, if they are kids of
: > immigrants for example. Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
: > Western World (in some form or other), it is simply the choice people take if
: > they are bored and want to do something new with their lives, but not somethong
: > TOO new, or TOO out of the ordinary. Seems a little weak, but as long as it
: > doesn't hurt anybody...
: The social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority
: of passive Christians in our world today. In the case of early Christianity
: the promise of a heavenly afterlife, independent of your social status,
: was also a very promising gift (reason slaves and non-Romans accepted
: the religion very rapidly).
If this is a hypothetical proposition, you should say so, if it's
fact, you should cite your sources. If all this is the amateur
sociologist sub-branch of a.a however, it would suffice to alert the
unwary that you are just screwing around ...
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re thoughts on christians
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 24
Kent Sandvik sandviknewtonapplecom wrote
This is a good point but I think average people do not take up Christianity
so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their
social life or to get more involved with American culture if they are kids of
immigrants for example Since it is the overwhelming major religion in the
Western World in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if
they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong
TOO new or TOO out of the ordinary Seems a little weak but as long as it
doesnt hurt anybody
The social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority
of passive Christians in our world today In the case of early Christianity
the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status
was also a very promising gift reason slaves and nonRomans accepted
the religion very rapidly
If this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if its
fact you should cite your sources If all this is the amateur
sociologist subbranch of aa however it would suffice to alert the
unwary that you are just screwing around
Bill
preprocess doc From: msmilor@skat.usc.edu (Mark Smilor)
Subject: Summer Internships
Article-I.D.: skat.1psaifINNfc5
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu
Hi Folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask, but I am
searching for a summer internship in engineering. I will be graduating in early
May with a B.S. in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my Masters this Fall
.Does anyone know of anything that is available, I am in the process of applyi
ng to some of the larger companies (ie. MacDac, Martin Marietta, Lockheed. If a
nyone knows of anything I would appreciate it if you could mail it to me.
Thanks in advance
Mark Smilor
msmilor@skat.usc.edu
or
smilor@aludra.usc.edu
after prepro From msmilorskatuscedu Mark Smilor
Subject Summer Internships
ArticleID skat1psaifINNfc5
Organization University of Southern California Los Angeles CA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost skatuscedu
Hi Folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask but I am
searching for a summer internship in engineering I will be graduating in early
May with a BS in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my Masters this Fall
Does anyone know of anything that is available I am in the process of applyi
ng to some of the larger companies ie MacDac Martin Marietta Lockheed If a
nyone knows of anything I would appreciate it if you could mail it to me
Thanks in advance
Mark Smilor
msmilorskatuscedu
or
smiloraludrauscedu
preprocess doc From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
In-Reply-To: 18084TM@msu.edu's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 21:37:55 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution: sci
Lines: 50
In article <C5sy4s.4x2.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:
Nick Haines sez;
>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
>maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).
Level 5? Out of how many? What are the different levels? I've never
heard of this rating system. Anyone care to clue me in?
This is a rating system used by ARPA and other organisations to
measure the maturity of a `software process' i.e. the entire process
by which software gets designed, written, tested, delivered, supported
etc.
See `Managing the Software Process', by Watts S. Humphrey, Addison
Wesley 1989. An excellent software engineering text. The 5 levels of
software process maturity are:
1. Initial
2. Repeatable
3. Defined
4. Managed
5. Optimizing
The levels are approximately characterized as follows:
1. no statistically software process control. Have no statistical
basis for estimating how large software will be, how long it will
take to produce, how expensive it will be, or how reliable it will
be. Most software production is at this level.
2. stable process with statistical controls, rigorous project
management; having done something once, can do it again. Projects
are planned in detail, and there is software configuration
management and quality assurance.
3. The process is defined and understood, implementation is
consistent. This includes things like software inspection, a
rigorous software testing framework, more configuration management,
and typically a `software engineering process group' within the
project.
4. Statistical information on the software is systematically gathered
and analysed, and the process is controlled on the basis of this
information. Software quality is measured and has goals.
5. Defects are prevented, the process is automated, software contracts
are effective and certified.
Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
after prepro From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re Level 5
InReplyTo 18084TMmsuedus message of Tue 20 Apr 1993 213755 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
Distribution sci
Lines 50
In article 18084TMmsuedu Tom writes
Nick Haines sez
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case
Level 5 Out of how many What are the different levels Ive never
heard of this rating system Anyone care to clue me in
This is a rating system used by ARPA and other organisations to
measure the maturity of a `software process ie the entire process
by which software gets designed written tested delivered supported
etc
See `Managing the Software Process by Watts S Humphrey Addison
Wesley 1989 An excellent software engineering text The 5 levels of
software process maturity are
1 Initial
2 Repeatable
3 Defined
4 Managed
5 Optimizing
The levels are approximately characterized as follows
1 no statistically software process control Have no statistical
basis for estimating how large software will be how long it will
take to produce how expensive it will be or how reliable it will
be Most software production is at this level
2 stable process with statistical controls rigorous project
management having done something once can do it again Projects
are planned in detail and there is software configuration
management and quality assurance
3 The process is defined and understood implementation is
consistent This includes things like software inspection a
rigorous software testing framework more configuration management
and typically a `software engineering process group within the
project
4 Statistical information on the software is systematically gathered
and analysed and the process is controlled on the basis of this
information Software quality is measured and has goals
5 Defects are prevented the process is automated software contracts
are effective and certified
Nick Haines nickhcmuedu
preprocess doc From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Space class for teachers near Chicago
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: usa
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 59
I am posting this for a friend without internet access. Please inquire
to the phone number and address listed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier"
Sponsored by the Planetary Studies Foundation
The Planetary Studies Foundation is sponsoring a one week class for
teachers called "Space: Teaching's Newest Frontier." The class will be
held at the Sheraton Suites in Elk Grove, Illinois from June 14 through
June 18. Participants who complete the program can earn two semester
hours of graduate credit from Aurora College. Please note that while the
class is intended for teachers, it is not restricted to teachers.
The class, which is being cosponsored by the United States Space
Foundation, will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool
to get students excited about learning and interested in science.
Classroom topics to be covered by the class include:
> Living in Space
> The Space Shuttle
> The Space Station
> NASA Spinoffs that Benefit Society
> Principles of Astrodynamics/Aeronautics
> The Solar System
There will also be simulated Zero-G training in an underwater space
station simulation, model rocket launches, observing sessions at the
Harper College Observatory, and field trips to the Adler Planetarium and
the Museum of Science and Industry.
Featured speakers include Jerry Brown of the Colorado based United
States Space Foundation and Debbie Brown of the NASA Lewis Research
Center in Cleveland, Ohio. Additional instructors will be provided by
the Planetary Studies Foundation.
The social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring
Space Shuttle Payload Specialist Byron Lichtenberg, currently President
of Payload Systems, Inc. Lichtenberg was a member of the crew of STS-9
which flew in November 1983. The banquet is scheduled for Thursday, June
17.
The registration fee includes transportation for field trips, materials,
continental breakfasts, lunches, and the special dinner banquet. Guest
tickets for the dinner banquet are also available. There is an
additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit. For any
additional information about the class, contact the Science Learning
Center at (708) 359-7913.
Or write to:
Planetary Studies Foundation
1520 W. Algonquin Rd.
Palatine, IL 60067
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL
after prepro From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Space class for teachers near Chicago
Organization Motorola
Distribution usa
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 59
I am posting this for a friend without internet access Please inquire
to the phone number and address listed
Space Teachings Newest Frontier
Sponsored by the Planetary Studies Foundation
The Planetary Studies Foundation is sponsoring a one week class for
teachers called Space Teachings Newest Frontier The class will be
held at the Sheraton Suites in Elk Grove Illinois from June 14 through
June 18 Participants who complete the program can earn two semester
hours of graduate credit from Aurora College Please note that while the
class is intended for teachers it is not restricted to teachers
The class which is being cosponsored by the United States Space
Foundation will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool
to get students excited about learning and interested in science
Classroom topics to be covered by the class include
Living in Space
The Space Shuttle
The Space Station
NASA Spinoffs that Benefit Society
Principles of AstrodynamicsAeronautics
The Solar System
There will also be simulated ZeroG training in an underwater space
station simulation model rocket launches observing sessions at the
Harper College Observatory and field trips to the Adler Planetarium and
the Museum of Science and Industry
Featured speakers include Jerry Brown of the Colorado based United
States Space Foundation and Debbie Brown of the NASA Lewis Research
Center in Cleveland Ohio Additional instructors will be provided by
the Planetary Studies Foundation
The social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring
Space Shuttle Payload Specialist Byron Lichtenberg currently President
of Payload Systems Inc Lichtenberg was a member of the crew of STS9
which flew in November 1983 The banquet is scheduled for Thursday June
17
The registration fee includes transportation for field trips materials
continental breakfasts lunches and the special dinner banquet Guest
tickets for the dinner banquet are also available There is an
additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit For any
additional information about the class contact the Science Learning
Center at 708 3597913
Or write to
Planetary Studies Foundation
1520 W Algonquin Rd
Palatine IL 60067
Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL
preprocess doc From: dfegan@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Doug Egan)
Subject: Re: *** HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES ***
Organization: LESC
Lines: 19
In <1993Apr20.041300.21721@ncsu.edu> jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
> I'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following
>companies. Specifically, I need addresses for their personnel
>offices or like bureau. The companies are:
> - Space Industries, Inc. (Somewhere in Houston)
101 Courageous Dr.
Leage City, TX 77573
Phone: (713) 538-6000
Good Luck!
Doug
--
Doug Egan "It's not what you got -
Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Co. It's what you give."
Houston, TX -Tesla
***** email: egan@blkbox.com *****
after prepro From dfeganlescssejscnasagov Doug Egan
Subject Re HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES
Organization LESC
Lines 19
In 1993Apr2004130021721ncsuedu jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
Im trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies Specifically I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau The companies are
Space Industries Inc Somewhere in Houston
101 Courageous Dr
Leage City TX 77573
Phone 713 5386000
Good Luck
Doug
Doug Egan Its not what you got
Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Co Its what you give
Houston TX Tesla
email eganblkboxcom
preprocess doc From: Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A7F6002BF6011C1D@rs14-annex3.sfu.ca>
X-Xxdate: Sat, 17 Apr 93 02:42:51 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
Lines: 11
In article <C5nGxq.663@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer,
henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
>The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
>When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
>the film continuously repeating.
Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time.
Once again netnews has enriched my life.
Leigh
after prepro From Leigh Palmer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
XXxmessageId
XXxdate Sat 17 Apr 93 024251 GMT
Organization Simon Fraser University
XUseragent Nuntius v111d17
Lines 11
In article Henry Spencer
henryzootorontoedu writes
The National Air Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating
Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife who was also working at General Atomic at the time
Once again netnews has enriched my life
Leigh
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 43
yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
>Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
>Engineer" position? Is this just a meaningless administrative
>shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?
>In my opinion, this seems like a Bad Thing, at least on the surface.
>Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
>things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
>getting things done faster, better, and cheaper. It's unclear to me
>whether he will be able to do this at his new position.
>Does anyone know what his new duties will be?
First I've heard of it. Offhand:
Griffin is no longer an "office" head, so that's bad.
On the other hand:
Regress seemed to think: we can't fund anything by Griffin, because
that would mean (and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the
$ 400 billion mars mission to prove it) that we would be buying into a
mission to Mars that would cost 400 billion. Therefore there will be
no Artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera...
They were killing Griffin's main program simply because some sycophants
somewhere had Congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into
the same old stuff. Sorta like not giving aid to Yeltsin because he's
a communist hardliner.
At least now the sort of reforms Griffin was trying to bring forward
won't be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded
ghetto. That Griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very
good. And if he brings something up, noone can say "why don't you go
back to the OSE where you belong" (and where he couldn't even get money
for design studies).
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Griffin Office of Exploration RIP
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 43
yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI
In my opinion this seems like a Bad Thing at least on the surface
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster better and cheaper Its unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position
Does anyone know what his new duties will be
First Ive heard of it Offhand
Griffin is no longer an office head so thats bad
On the other hand
Regress seemed to think we cant fund anything by Griffin because
that would mean and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the
400 billion mars mission to prove it that we would be buying into a
mission to Mars that would cost 400 billion Therefore there will be
no Artemis or 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera
They were killing Griffins main program simply because some sycophants
somewhere had Congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into
the same old stuff Sorta like not giving aid to Yeltsin because hes
a communist hardliner
At least now the sort of reforms Griffin was trying to bring forward
wont be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded
ghetto That Griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very
good And if he brings something up noone can say why dont you go
back to the OSE where you belong and where he couldnt even get money
for design studies
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr14.175557.20296@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>Sorry to insult your homestate, but coming from where I do, Wisconsin
>is _very_ backwards. I was never able to understand that people actually
>held such bigoted and backwards views until I came here.
I have never been to Wisconsin, though I have been to
neighbor Minnesota. Being a child of the Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA)
I found that there were few states in the provences that stood
out in this youngster's mind: California, Texas, and Florida to
name the most obvious three. However, both Minnesota and Wisconsin
stuck out, solely on the basis of their politics. Both have
always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states.
And my recent trip to Minnestoa last summer served to support that
state's reputation. My guess is that Wisconsin is probably the
same. At least that was the impression the people of Minnesota left
with me about their neighbors.
The only question in my head about Wisconsin, though, is
whether or not there is a cause-effect relationship between
cheese and serial killers :)
-jim halat
after prepro From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 23
In article 1993Apr1417555720296daffycswiscedu mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
Sorry to insult your homestate but coming from where I do Wisconsin
is _very_ backwards I was never able to understand that people actually
held such bigoted and backwards views until I came here
I have never been to Wisconsin though I have been to
neighbor Minnesota Being a child of the Middle Atlantic NY NJ PA
I found that there were few states in the provences that stood
out in this youngsters mind California Texas and Florida to
name the most obvious three However both Minnesota and Wisconsin
stuck out solely on the basis of their politics Both have
always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states
And my recent trip to Minnestoa last summer served to support that
states reputation My guess is that Wisconsin is probably the
same At least that was the impression the people of Minnesota left
with me about their neighbors
The only question in my head about Wisconsin though is
whether or not there is a causeeffect relationship between
cheese and serial killers
jim halat
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 27
In article <1qjfnv$ogt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank
O'Dwyer) wrote:
> (1) Does the term "hero-worship" mean anything to you?
Yes, worshipping Jesus as the super-saver is indeed hero-worshipping
of the grand scale. Worshipping Lenin that will make life pleasant
for the working people is, eh, somehow similar, or what.
> (2) I understand that gods are defined to be supernatural, not merely
> superhuman.
The notion of Lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights
into how to change the world, he wasn't a communist God, but he was
the man who gave presents to kids during Christmas.
> #Actually, I agree. Things are always relative, and you can't have
> #a direct mapping between a movement and a cause. However, the notion
> #that communist Russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is
> #only something that Robertson, Tilton et rest would believe in.
>
> Those atheists were not True Unbelievers, huh? :-)
Don't know what they were, but they were fanatics indeed.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 27
In article 1qjfnvogthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank
ODwyer wrote
1 Does the term heroworship mean anything to you
Yes worshipping Jesus as the supersaver is indeed heroworshipping
of the grand scale Worshipping Lenin that will make life pleasant
for the working people is eh somehow similar or what
2 I understand that gods are defined to be supernatural not merely
superhuman
The notion of Lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights
into how to change the world he wasnt a communist God but he was
the man who gave presents to kids during Christmas
Actually I agree Things are always relative and you cant have
a direct mapping between a movement and a cause However the notion
that communist Russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is
only something that Robertson Tilton et rest would believe in
Those atheists were not True Unbelievers huh
Dont know what they were but they were fanatics indeed
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: vdp@mayo.edu (Vinayak Dutt)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
Reply-To: vdp@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Foundation/Mayo Graduate School :Rochester, MN
Lines: 53
In article H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil, khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Umar Khan) writes:
##I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE, THE QURAN, AND
##SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille, a French surgeon. It is not comprehensive,
##but, it is well researched. I imagine your library has it or can get it
##for you through interlibrary loan.
##
I shall try to get hold of it (when I have time to read of course :-)
##In short, Dr Baucaille began investigating the Bible because of pre-
##ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies. He assumed that
##some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by-
##gone days. So, he read what he could find in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.
##What he found was that the problems didn't go away, they got worse.
##Then, he decided to see if other religions had the same problems.
##So, he picked up the Holy Qur'an (in French) and found similar prob-
##lems, but not as many. SO, he applied the same logoic as he had
##with the Bible: he learned to read it in Arabic. The problems he
##had found with the French version went away in Arabic. He was unable
##to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Qur'an, but,
##what he did find made sense with modern understanding. So, he
##investigated the Traditions (the hadith) to see what they had to
##say about science. they were filled with science problems; after
##all, they were contemporary narratives from a time which had, by
##pour standards, a primitive world view. His conclusion was that,
##while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
##say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
##Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
##the Traditions. How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
##what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
##it)?
##
So in short the writer (or writers) of Quran decided to stay away from
science. (if you do not open your mouth, then you don't put you foot into
your mouth either).
But then if you say Quran does not talk much about science, then one can
not make claims (like Bobby does) that you have great science in Quran.
Basically I want to say that *none* of the religious texts are supposed to
be scientific treatises. So I am just requesting the theists to stop making
such wild claims.
--- Vinayak
-------------------------------------------------------
vinayak dutt
e-mail: vdp@mayo.edu
standard disclaimers apply
-------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From vdpmayoedu Vinayak Dutt
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
ReplyTo vdpmayoedu
Organization Mayo FoundationMayo Graduate School Rochester MN
Lines 53
In article H9rranrlnavymil khanitditdnrlnavymil Umar Khan writes
I strongly suggest that you look up a book called THE BIBLE THE QURAN AND
SCIENCE by Maurice Baucaille a French surgeon It is not comprehensive
but it is well researched I imagine your library has it or can get it
for you through interlibrary loan
I shall try to get hold of it when I have time to read of course
In short Dr Baucaille began investigating the Bible because of pre
ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies He assumed that
some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by
gone days So he read what he could find in Hebrew Greek Aramaic
What he found was that the problems didnt go away they got worse
Then he decided to see if other religions had the same problems
So he picked up the Holy Quran in French and found similar prob
lems but not as many SO he applied the same logoic as he had
with the Bible he learned to read it in Arabic The problems he
had found with the French version went away in Arabic He was unable
to find a wealth of scientific statements in the Holy Quran but
what he did find made sense with modern understanding So he
investigated the Traditions the hadith to see what they had to
say about science they were filled with science problems after
all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by
pour standards a primitive world view His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it
So in short the writer or writers of Quran decided to stay away from
science if you do not open your mouth then you dont put you foot into
your mouth either
But then if you say Quran does not talk much about science then one can
not make claims like Bobby does that you have great science in Quran
Basically I want to say that none of the religious texts are supposed to
be scientific treatises So I am just requesting the theists to stop making
such wild claims
Vinayak
vinayak dutt
email vdpmayoedu
standard disclaimers apply
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnala.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: NASA Ames server (was Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnala.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr26.152722.19887@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>, kjenks@jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks [NASA]) writes:
> I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
[...]
> Sorry it took
> me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
> but it's out of space.
How ironic.
Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | "Treat your password like
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | your toothbrush. Don't let
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | anybody else use it--
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | and get a new one every
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | six months." --Cliff Stoll
after prepro From higginsfnalafnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject NASA Ames server was Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost fnalafnalgov
In article 1993Apr2615272219887aiojscnasagov kjenksjscnasagov Ken Jenks [NASA] writes
I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server icsuciedu
[]
Sorry it took
me so long to get these out but I was trying for the Ames server
but its out of space
How ironic
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey Treat your password like
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory your toothbrush Dont let
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET anybody else use it
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV and get a new one every
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS six months Cliff Stoll
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Surviving Large Accelerations?
From: lpham@eis.calstate.edu (Lan Pham)
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 25
Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Hi,
> I was reading through "The Spaceflight Handbook" and somewhere in
> there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
> when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
> the sun in a hyperbolic orbit. The magnitude of such accelerations he
> estimated to be on the order of 700g. He also says that this is may not
> be a big problem for manned craft because humans (and this was published
> in 1986) have already withstood accelerations of 45g. All this is very
> long-winded but here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
> fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
> course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
> Can this be extended to larger accelerations?
are you sure 45g is the right number? as far as i know, pilots are
blackout in dives that exceed 8g - 9g. 45g seems to be out of human
tolerance. would anybody clarify this please.
lan
>
> Thanks is advance...
> -Amruth Laxman
>
after prepro Subject Re Surviving Large Accelerations
From lphameiscalstateedu Lan Pham
Organization Calif State UnivElectronic Information Services
Lines 25
Amruth Laxman writes
Hi
I was reading through The Spaceflight Handbook and somewhere in
there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them
when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to
the sun in a hyperbolic orbit The magnitude of such accelerations he
estimated to be on the order of 700g He also says that this is may not
be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published
in 1986 have already withstood accelerations of 45g All this is very
longwinded but heres my question finally Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration
Can this be extended to larger accelerations
are you sure 45g is the right number as far as i know pilots are
blackout in dives that exceed 8g 9g 45g seems to be out of human
tolerance would anybody clarify this please
lan
Thanks is advance
Amruth Laxman
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 54
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr22.003719.101323@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>prb@access.digex.com (Pat) Pontificated:
>>
>>
>
>I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
>that essentially says "If you never hear from Earth again,
>here's what to do." This was a back up in the event a receiver
>burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but
>still some data).
>
Voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system. All it's doing is collecting fields data, and routinely
squirting it down. One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit, and still providing similiar solar data.
Something in a planetary orbit, is subject to much more complex forces.
Comsats, in "stable " geosynch orbits, require almost daily
stationkeeping operations.
For the occasional deep space bird, like PFF after pluto, sure
it could be left on "auto-pilot". but things like galileo or
magellan, i'd suspect they need enough housekeeping that
even untended they'd end up unusable after a while.
The better question should be.
Why not transfer O&M of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions.
pat
When ongoing ops are mentioned, it seems to always quote Operations
and Data analysis. how much would it cost to collect the data
and let it be analyzed whenever. kinda like all that landsat data
that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole.
>>Even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some
>>cosmic phenomena.
>>
>Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
>startup, if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe, it might
>not be such a big loss. Obviously you can't plan for
>everything, but the most obvious things can be considered.
>
>
>/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
>| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you |
>| think I said. But I am not sure that you realize that |
>| what I said is not what I meant." |
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 54
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr22003719101323zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
prbaccessdigexcom Pat Pontificated
I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says If you never hear from Earth again
heres what to do This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but
still some data
Voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the
solar system All its doing is collecting fields data and routinely
squirting it down One of the mariners is also in stable
solar orbit and still providing similiar solar data
Something in a planetary orbit is subject to much more complex forces
Comsats in stable geosynch orbits require almost daily
stationkeeping operations
For the occasional deep space bird like PFF after pluto sure
it could be left on autopilot but things like galileo or
magellan id suspect they need enough housekeeping that
even untended theyd end up unusable after a while
The better question should be
Why not transfer OM of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding
to support these kind of ongoing science missions
pat
When ongoing ops are mentioned it seems to always quote Operations
and Data analysis how much would it cost to collect the data
and let it be analyzed whenever kinda like all that landsat data
that sat around for 15 years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole
Even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena
Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe it might
not be such a big loss Obviously you cant plan for
everything but the most obvious things can be considered
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I know you believe you understand what it is that you
think I said But I am not sure that you realize that
what I said is not what I meant
preprocess doc From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: DC-X: Choice of a New Generation (was Re: SSRT Roll-Out Speech)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: jkatz@access.digex.com's message of 21 Apr 1993 22:09:32 -0400
In article <1r4uos$jid@access.digex.net> jkatz@access.digex.com (Jordan Katz) writes:
> Speech Delivered by Col. Simon P. Worden,
> The Deputy for Technology, SDIO
>
> Most of you, as am I, are "children of the 1960's." We grew
>up in an age of miracles -- Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles,
>nuclear energy, computers, flights to the moon. But these were
>miracles of our parent's doing.
> Speech by Pete Worden
> Delivered Before the U.S. Space Foundation Conference
> I'm embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
>generation -- the giants of the last great space era, the 1950's
>and 1960's. They went to the moon - we built a telescope that
>can't see straight. They soft-landed on Mars - the least we
>could do is soft-land on Earth!
Just out of curiousity, how old is Worden?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
after prepro From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject DCX Choice of a New Generation was Re SSRT RollOut Speech
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 27
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu
Inreplyto jkatzaccessdigexcoms message of 21 Apr 1993 220932 0400
In article 1r4uosjidaccessdigexnet jkatzaccessdigexcom Jordan Katz writes
Speech Delivered by Col Simon P Worden
The Deputy for Technology SDIO
Most of you as am I are children of the 1960s We grew
up in an age of miracles InterContinental Ballistic Missiles
nuclear energy computers flights to the moon But these were
miracles of our parents doing
Speech by Pete Worden
Delivered Before the US Space Foundation Conference
Im embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last
generation the giants of the last great space era the 1950s
and 1960s They went to the moon we built a telescope that
cant see straight They softlanded on Mars the least we
could do is softland on Earth
Just out of curiousity how old is Worden
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: sgi
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <115468@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|> In article <1qg79g$kl5@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >You are amazed that I find it difficult to grasp it when
|> >people justify death-threats against Rushdie with the
|> >claim "he was born Muslim?"
|>
|> This is empty rhetoric. I am amazed at your inability to understand what
|> I am saying not that you find it difficult to "grasp it when people
|> justify death-threats...". I find it amazing that your ability to
|> consider abstract questions in isolation. You seem to believe in the
|> falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse. You must *hate*
|> physics!
You're closer than you might imagine. I certainly despised living
under the Soviet regime when it purported to organize society according
to what they fondly imagined to be the "objective" conclusions of
Marxist dialectic.
But I don't hate Physics so long as some clown doesn't start trying
to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable
atoms, rather than individual human beings.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization sgi
Lines 24
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 115468buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1qg79gkl5fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
You are amazed that I find it difficult to grasp it when
people justify deaththreats against Rushdie with the
claim he was born Muslim
This is empty rhetoric I am amazed at your inability to understand what
I am saying not that you find it difficult to grasp it when people
justify deaththreats I find it amazing that your ability to
consider abstract questions in isolation You seem to believe in the
falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse You must hate
physics
Youre closer than you might imagine I certainly despised living
under the Soviet regime when it purported to organize society according
to what they fondly imagined to be the objective conclusions of
Marxist dialectic
But I dont hate Physics so long as some clown doesnt start trying
to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable
atoms rather than individual human beings
jon
preprocess doc From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: New Member
Organization: Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines: 28
In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com> dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
>
> Hello. I just started reading this group today, and I think I am going
>to be a large participant in its daily postings. I liked the section of
>the FAQ about constructing logical arguments - well done. I am an atheist,
>but I do not try to turn other people into atheists. I only try to figure
>why people believe the way they do - I don't much care if they have a
>different view than I do. When it comes down to it . . . I could be wrong.
>I am willing to admit the possibility - something religious followers
>dont seem to have the capability to do.
>
> Happy to be aboard !
>
>Dave Fuller
>dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com
Welcome. I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on alt.atheism (didn't know we had such a list, did you).
Your have been awarded the nickname of "Buckminster." So the next time
you post an article, sign with your nickname like so:
Dave "Buckminster" Fuller. Thanks again.
Jim "Humor means never having to say you're sorry" Copeland
--
If God is dead and the actor plays his part | -- Sting,
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart | History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse | Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse | Nothing
after prepro From jcopelannyxcsduedu The One and Only
Subject Re New Member
Organization Salvation Army Draft Board
Lines 28
In article dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
Hello I just started reading this group today and I think I am going
to be a large participant in its daily postings I liked the section of
the FAQ about constructing logical arguments well done I am an atheist
but I do not try to turn other people into atheists I only try to figure
why people believe the way they do I dont much care if they have a
different view than I do When it comes down to it I could be wrong
I am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers
dont seem to have the capability to do
Happy to be aboard
Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom
Welcome I am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people
are known by on altatheism didnt know we had such a list did you
Your have been awarded the nickname of Buckminster So the next time
you post an article sign with your nickname like so
Dave Buckminster Fuller Thanks again
Jim Humor means never having to say youre sorry Copeland
If God is dead and the actor plays his part Sting
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart History
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse Will Teach Us
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse Nothing
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Keith Schneider - Stealth Poster?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>>To borrow from philosophy, you don't truly understand the color red
>>until you have seen it.
>Not true, even if you have experienced the color red you still might
>have a different interpretation of it.
But, you wouldn't know what red *was*, and you certainly couldn't judge
it subjectively. And, objectivity is not applicable, since you are wanting
to discuss the merits of red.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Keith Schneider Stealth Poster
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
To borrow from philosophy you dont truly understand the color red
until you have seen it
Not true even if you have experienced the color red you still might
have a different interpretation of it
But you wouldnt know what red was and you certainly couldnt judge
it subjectively And objectivity is not applicable since you are wanting
to discuss the merits of red
keith
preprocess doc From: keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 80
In article <1993Apr21.150545.24058@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
wrote:
>
> In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>
> >>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
> >>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
>
> >Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
> >to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. Of
> >course, they may be over-optimistic.
>
> In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
> cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
> is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
> base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
> much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
> range.
>
For the purpose of a contest, I'd bet some things could be cut. Like fuel
for re-entry, any kind of heat shielding, etc., etc. Even still, if the
contest participants had to fund DC-1 development, it probably wouldn't be
worth it to develop DC-1 (just for the contest). Just give me the cheapest
heaviest lift man rated (or at least under 6 or so Gs) booster... If I
don't have to pay for DC-1 development, great!, I'll use it.
But back to the contest goals, there was a recent article in AW&ST about a
low cost (it's all relative...) manned return to the moon. A General
Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV & Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
stage, LEV, and crew capsule. The mission consists of delivering two
unmanned payloads to the lunar surface, followed by a manned mission.
Total cost: US was $10-$13 billion. Joint ESA(?)/NASA project was $6-$9
billion for the US share.
I didn't find a mention of how long the crew could stay, but I'd bet that
its around 30 days. And the total payload delivered was about 30 metric
tonnes. So if you ignore the scientific payload, hitch a ride in the crew
habitation module (no return trip...), and toss in a few more tonnes for
the additional consumables to last another 11 months, then you *might* be
able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes (and in case its not obvious,
that's a wild ass guess). A pretty boring visit, since every trip outdoors
eats up a bit of LOX. And I'm not certain if a home brewed (or
college-brewed) life support system could last a year. But let's round
this up to 19.4 tonnes (convient, since the GD plan talks about 9.7 ton
payloads delivered to the lunar surface. This adds up to two Centaurs, two
LEVs, two Shuttle flights... All to put a single man on the moon for a
year. Hmmm. Not really practical. Anyone got a cheaper/better way of
delivering 15-20 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade? Anyone
have a more precise guess about how much a year's supply of consumables and
equipment would weigh?
And I was wondering about the GD LEV. Is it reusable? Or is it discarded
to burn up on return to LEO? If its not discarded, could it be refueled?
Henry: Do you know anything about the GD LEV? I noted that it uses RL-10
engines. Aren't they reusable/restartable? Would a LEV fit in a DC-1?
I've forgotten (if I ever knew) what the cargo bay dimensions are for the
DC-1.
All in all, I'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise and/or useful. How about: A prize for the first
non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a manned
moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth. Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure... Having a single goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared
to win. And for those that didn't give up, I find something a little scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters. I'd
like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition.
Lastly, about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was an
English space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases on
the cheap. I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from solar
flares, etc. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of this magazine.
Does this ring a bell to anyone?
Craig Keithley |"I don't remember, I don't recall,
Apple Computer, Inc. |I got no memory of anything at all"
keithley@apple.com |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)
after prepro From keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization Apple Computer Inc
Lines 80
In article 1993Apr2115054524058itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
wrote
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation Of
course they may be overoptimistic
In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
range
For the purpose of a contest Id bet some things could be cut Like fuel
for reentry any kind of heat shielding etc etc Even still if the
contest participants had to fund DC1 development it probably wouldnt be
worth it to develop DC1 just for the contest Just give me the cheapest
heaviest lift man rated or at least under 6 or so Gs booster If I
dont have to pay for DC1 development great Ill use it
But back to the contest goals there was a recent article in AWST about a
low cost its all relative manned return to the moon A General
Dynamics scheme involving a Titan IV Shuttle to lift a Centaur upper
stage LEV and crew capsule The mission consists of delivering two
unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission
Total cost US was 1013 billion Joint ESANASA project was 69
billion for the US share
I didnt find a mention of how long the crew could stay but Id bet that
its around 30 days And the total payload delivered was about 30 metric
tonnes So if you ignore the scientific payload hitch a ride in the crew
habitation module no return trip and toss in a few more tonnes for
the additional consumables to last another 11 months then you might be
able to get a year visit out of 15 tonnes and in case its not obvious
thats a wild ass guess A pretty boring visit since every trip outdoors
eats up a bit of LOX And Im not certain if a home brewed or
collegebrewed life support system could last a year But lets round
this up to 194 tonnes convient since the GD plan talks about 97 ton
payloads delivered to the lunar surface This adds up to two Centaurs two
LEVs two Shuttle flights All to put a single man on the moon for a
year Hmmm Not really practical Anyone got a cheaperbetter way of
delivering 1520 tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade Anyone
have a more precise guess about how much a years supply of consumables and
equipment would weigh
And I was wondering about the GD LEV Is it reusable Or is it discarded
to burn up on return to LEO If its not discarded could it be refueled
Henry Do you know anything about the GD LEV I noted that it uses RL10
engines Arent they reusablerestartable Would a LEV fit in a DC1
Ive forgotten if I ever knew what the cargo bay dimensions are for the
DC1
All in all Im not certain that the single goalprize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise andor useful How about A prize for the first
nongovernment sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a manned
moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil another for a reusable earthmoon shuttle and so forth Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure Having a single goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared
to win And for those that didnt give up I find something a little scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters Id
like to see as much a reward for cooperation as for competition
Lastly about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was an
English space magazine that had an ongoing discussion about moonbases on
the cheap I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced how much lunar material itd need for protection from solar
flares etc Unfortunately I dont remember the name of this magazine
Does this ring a bell to anyone
Craig Keithley I dont remember I dont recall
Apple Computer Inc I got no memory of anything at all
keithleyapplecom Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr22.184650.4833@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>isn't my real name, either. I'm actually Elvis. Or maybe a lemur; I
>sometimes have difficulty telling which is which.
definitely a lemur.
Elvis couldn't spell, just listen to any of his songs.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 9
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr221846504833mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
isnt my real name either Im actually Elvis Or maybe a lemur I
sometimes have difficulty telling which is which
definitely a lemur
Elvis couldnt spell just listen to any of his songs
pat
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 22
In article <1993Apr21.212202.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
>exploration.
>
>Basically get the eco-freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth.
They aren't going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining. Quite a
few of those people are, when you come right down to it, basically against
industrial civilization. They won't stop with shutting down the mines here;
that is only a means to an end for them now.
The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution
is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without radical change.
Telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is
treason of the vilest kind.
Trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to
harness a buffalo to pull your plough. He's got plenty of muscle, all
right, but the furrow will go where he wants, not where you want.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 22
In article 1993Apr212122021auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral
exploration
Basically get the ecofreaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth
They arent going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining Quite a
few of those people are when you come right down to it basically against
industrial civilization They wont stop with shutting down the mines here
that is only a means to an end for them now
The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution
is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without radical change
Telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is
treason of the vilest kind
Trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to
harness a buffalo to pull your plough Hes got plenty of muscle all
right but the furrow will go where he wants not where you want
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: *Doppelganger* (was Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus)
Article-I.D.: mojo.1qkn6rINNett
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 17
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <1993Apr15.170048.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>This was known as *Journey to the Far Side of the Sun* in the United
>States and as *Doppelganger* in the U.K... Later, they went
>on to do more live-action SF series: *UFO* and *Space: 1999*.
>
>The astronomy was lousy, but the lifting-body spacecraft, VTOL
>airliners, and mighty Portugese launch complex were *wonderful* to
>look at.
They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO. Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE: 1999.
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Doppelganger was Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
ArticleID mojo1qkn6rINNett
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
Distribution world
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 17
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article 1993Apr151700481fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
This was known as Journey to the Far Side of the Sun in the United
States and as Doppelganger in the UK Later they went
on to do more liveaction SF series UFO and Space 1999
The astronomy was lousy but the liftingbody spacecraft VTOL
airliners and mighty Portugese launch complex were wonderful to
look at
They recycled a lot of models and theme music for UFO Some of the
concepts even showed up in SPACE 1999
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU (nathan wallace)
Subject: ORION test film
Reply-To: wallacen@CS.ColoState.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: sor.cs.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University -=- Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 11
Is the film from the "putt-putt" test vehicle which used conventional
explosives as a proof-of-concept test, or another one?
---
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
C/ Nathan F. Wallace C/C/ "Reality Is" C/
C/ e-mail: wallacen@cs.colostate.edu C/C/ ancient Alphaean proverb C/
C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/C/
after prepro From wallacenCSColoStateEDU nathan wallace
Subject ORION test film
ReplyTo wallacenCSColoStateEDU
NntpPostingHost sorcscolostateedu
Organization Colorado State University Computer Science Dept
Lines 11
Is the film from the puttputt test vehicle which used conventional
explosives as a proofofconcept test or another one
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
C Nathan F Wallace CC Reality Is C
C email wallacencscolostateedu CC ancient Alphaean proverb C
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 42
<STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu>
<1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 20 Apr 93 22:38:07 GMT
In article <1993Apr20.223807.16712@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
In article <STEINLY.93Apr20145301@topaz.ucsc.edu> steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
> Why Paul, it's obvious.
> Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
> as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
> :-) :-) :-)
Well, there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification. The
chlorine process is cleaner, however, and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace.
Darn, caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again...
Most Ti is used in pigment, btw (as the oxide), where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago. Very little is reduced to the
metal.
Spoilsport. Hence the need for increasing fashion
emphasis on anodise Ti jewelry...
> Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
> in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
> the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
> use...
Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)
I did not evade the issue at all. I clearly stated that
this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing
a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming Great War ;-)
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)
* Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" *
* But, oh, love is strange *
* and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth, *
* I suppose - B.B. 1983 *
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 42
1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto dietzcsrochesteredus message of 20 Apr 93 223807 GMT
In article 1993Apr2022380716712csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Why Paul its obvious
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will
Well there already is a sulfate process for TiO2 purification The
chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving
dominance in the marketplace
Darn caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again
Most Ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced
white lead pigment some decades ago Very little is reduced to the
metal
Spoilsport Hence the need for increasing fashion
emphasis on anodise Ti jewelry
Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use
Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all and why their children would want to stay
I did not evade the issue at all I clearly stated that
this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing
a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming Great War
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method
Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory
steinlylickucscedu standard disclaimer
But oh love is strange
and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth
I suppose BB 1983
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Eco-Freaks forcing Space Mining.
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr23.001718.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <1r6b7v$ec5@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
> when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining.
>
> they still mine coal in the midwest, but now it doesn't look like
> the moon when theyare done.
>
> pat
===
I aint talking the large or even the "mining companies" I am talking the small
miners, the people who have themselves and a few employees (if at all).The
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box, and such and do
mining the semi-old fashion way.. (okay they use modern methods toa point).
I am talking the guy who coem to Nome evry year, sets up his tent on the beach
(the beach was washed away last year) and sets up his/her sluice box and goes
at it "mining".
I know the large corps, such as Alaska Gold Company, might complain to..
My opinions are what I learn at the local BS table..
My original thing/idea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the
eco-freaks thier way.. As they have done with other mineral development.
You can't in many places can't go to the bathroom in the woods without some
form of regulation covering it..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re EcoFreaks forcing Space Mining
ArticleID aurora1993Apr230017181
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 28
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article 1r6b7vec5accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
Besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed
when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining
they still mine coal in the midwest but now it doesnt look like
the moon when theyare done
pat
I aint talking the large or even the mining companies I am talking the small
miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at allThe
people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do
mining the semiold fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point
I am talking the guy who coem to Nome evry year sets up his tent on the beach
the beach was washed away last year and sets up hisher sluice box and goes
at it mining
I know the large corps such as Alaska Gold Company might complain to
My opinions are what I learn at the local BS table
My original thingidea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the
ecofreaks thier way As they have done with other mineral development
You cant in many places cant go to the bathroom in the woods without some
form of regulation covering it
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution: world,public
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 19
In article <115437@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) wrote:
> As I have stated on a parallel thread, I am not an anarchist, nor is
> Islam anarchist. Therefore the UK should have control over itself.
> However, this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens
> of the UK residing within the UK to be in violation of Islamic law.
This is an interesting notion -- and one I'm scared of. In my
case I'm a Finnish citizen, I live in USA, and I have to conform
to the US laws. However, the Finnish government is not actively
checking out what I'm doing in this country, in other words checking
out if I conform to the Finnish laws.
However, Islamic law seems to be a 'curse' that is following you
everywhere in the world. Shades of 1984, eh?
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Distribution worldpublic
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 19
In article 115437buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger wrote
As I have stated on a parallel thread I am not an anarchist nor is
Islam anarchist Therefore the UK should have control over itself
However this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens
of the UK residing within the UK to be in violation of Islamic law
This is an interesting notion and one Im scared of In my
case Im a Finnish citizen I live in USA and I have to conform
to the US laws However the Finnish government is not actively
checking out what Im doing in this country in other words checking
out if I conform to the Finnish laws
However Islamic law seems to be a curse that is following you
everywhere in the world Shades of 1984 eh
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 48
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:
>:> God is eternal. [A = B]
>:> Jesus is God. [C = A]
>:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal. [C = B]
>
>:> This works both logically and mathematically. God is of the set of
>:> things which are eternal. Jesus is a subset of God. Therefore
>:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
>
>Everything isn't always so logical....
>
>Mercedes is a car.
>That girl is Mercedes.
>Therefore, that girl is a car?
This is not strickly correct. Only by incorrect application of the
rules of language, does it seem to work.
The Mercedes in the first premis, and the one in the second are NOT
the same Mercedes.
In your case,
A = B
C = D
A and D are NOT equal. One is a name of a person, the other the
name of a object. You can not simply extract a word without taking the
context into account.
Of course, your case doesn't imply that A = D.
In his case, A does equal D.
Try again...
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 48
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki writes
God is eternal [A B]
Jesus is God [C A]
Therefore Jesus is eternal [C B]
This works both logically and mathematically God is of the set of
things which are eternal Jesus is a subset of God Therefore
Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal
Everything isnt always so logical
Mercedes is a car
That girl is Mercedes
Therefore that girl is a car
This is not strickly correct Only by incorrect application of the
rules of language does it seem to work
The Mercedes in the first premis and the one in the second are NOT
the same Mercedes
In your case
A B
C D
A and D are NOT equal One is a name of a person the other the
name of a object You can not simply extract a word without taking the
context into account
Of course your case doesnt imply that A D
In his case A does equal D
Try again
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say Mom because of the love of their mom It makes for more
virile men
Bobby Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
April 4 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world
preprocess doc From: jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Lines: 37
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
In article <15APR199315012030@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.094320.1723@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes...
>>> > So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that
>>> > put it into temporary orbit, and how far is it likely to get from
>>> > Jupiter before it makes its escape?
>>>
>>> The answer to all of these questions is we don't know yet.
>>> We don't know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit.
>>
>>I see. I wasn't so interested in this particular case as in typical
>>behavior, anyway. Can these questions be answered for a previous
>>instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?
>
> Gehrels 3 was in a temporary Jovian orbit for about 3 or 4 years. I'll
> get the orbital elements from Dance of the Planets and post them here.
Sorry folks, I should have done this, and meant to just after i hit the
send key...
Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)
p(au) 3.424346
e 0.151899
i 1.0988
cap_omega(0) 243.5652
W(0) 231.1607
epoch 1977.04110
Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
Hope this helps...I'm even less of an orbital mechanic than I am an artist.
John Garland
jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
after prepro From jgarlandkeanucsmunca
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Lines 37
Organization Memorial University StJohns Nfld Canada
In article 15APR199315012030kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
In article 1993Apr150943201723sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
So how close would the comet have gotten to Jupiter on the pass that
put it into temporary orbit and how far is it likely to get from
Jupiter before it makes its escape
The answer to all of these questions is we dont know yet
We dont know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit
I see I wasnt so interested in this particular case as in typical
behavior anyway Can these questions be answered for a previous
instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting
Gehrels 3 was in a temporary Jovian orbit for about 3 or 4 years Ill
get the orbital elements from Dance of the Planets and post them here
Sorry folks I should have done this and meant to just after i hit the
send key
Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files
pau 3424346
e 0151899
i 10988
cap_omega0 2435652
W0 2311607
epoch 197704110
Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Hope this helpsIm even less of an orbital mechanic than I am an artist
John Garland
jgarlandkeanucsmunca
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr20.072706.19981@cs.ruu.nl>, jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg) writes...
>In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
>(Ron Baalke) writes:
>
>>4. On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
>Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??
The gravity data is collected in real-time and it not recorded to the tape
recorder. However, you only need to collect the gravity every 3rd or 4th
orbit, so there is no real data loss if the Moon blocks transmission for
a short while.
>BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
>looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
>to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)
The aerobraking starts May 25 and is expected last about 70 days. If the
funding is provided (8 million dollars) to extend the mission for the
high resolution gravity data, then the mission will last through October 1994.
Otherwise, the mission will end this coming July.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Magellan Update 041693
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 29
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Magellan JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr2007270619981csruunl jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg writes
In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
4 On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on
The gravity data is collected in realtime and it not recorded to the tape
recorder However you only need to collect the gravity every 3rd or 4th
orbit so there is no real data loss if the Moon blocks transmission for
a short while
BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding
The aerobraking starts May 25 and is expected last about 70 days If the
funding is provided 8 million dollars to extend the mission for the
high resolution gravity data then the mission will last through October 1994
Otherwise the mission will end this coming July
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was
In-Reply-To: <C5L1Fv.H9r@ra.nrl.navy.mil>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 35
>DATE: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:23:54 GMT
>FROM: Umar Khan <khan@itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil>
>
> His conclusion was that,
>while he was impressed that what little the Holy Qur'an had to
>say about science was accurate, he was far more impressed that the
>Holy Qur'an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
>the Traditions. How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
>what *not to include* in the Holy Qur'an (assuming he had authored
>it)?
>
Well, it looks like the folks in soc.religion.islam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking/interest
topic. A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned. These may be hard to find, but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity. I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran (which I posted here) were also pretty
vague. I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have.
At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science.
I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
"Creation Science" on any topic. It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran, to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded. It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then "interpret" passages
to match those findings. People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time.
Anyway, it is a rather unique claim of Islam and may be worth checking.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was
InReplyTo
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 35
DATE Fri 16 Apr 1993 152354 GMT
FROM Umar Khan
His conclusion was that
while he was impressed that what little the Holy Quran had to
say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the
Holy Quran did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in
the Traditions How would a man of 7th Century Arabia have known
what not to include in the Holy Quran assuming he had authored
it
Well it looks like the folks in socreligionislam have loosened up
a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the bankinginterest
topic A few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition
to the one you mentioned These may be hard to find but I think I may
take a stab at it out of curiosity I know the one film I saw on this
subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes I have seen which were
used to show science in the Koran which I posted here were also pretty
vague I suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the
quotes they have
At least one poster on the Islam channel seems to have some misgivings
about the practice of using the Koran to decide what is good science
I wonder if Islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the Christians
Creation Science on any topic It would be interesting to find a history
of scientific interpretations of the Koran to see if anyone used the Koran
to support earlier science which has since been discarded It is all too
easy to look at science as it exists today and then interpret passages
to match those findings People do similar things with the sayings of
Nostradamus all the time
Anyway it is a rather unique claim of Islam and may be worth checking
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Wholly Babble (Was Re: free moral agency)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 10
In article <2944159064.5.p00261@psilink.com>
"Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com> writes:
(Deletion)
>Of course, there is also the
>Book of the SubGenius and that whole collection of writings as well.
Does someone know a FTP site with it?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Wholly Babble Was Re free moral agency
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 10
In article 29441590645p00261psilinkcom
Robert Knowles writes
Deletion
Of course there is also the
Book of the SubGenius and that whole collection of writings as well
Does someone know a FTP site with it
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 14
In article <C5Kys1.C6r@panix.com> dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein) writes:
>A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
>about how the Japanese, using what sounded like a gravity assist, had just
>managed to crash (or crash-land) a package on the moon.
Their Hiten engineering-test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys, and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravity-assist-like maneuvering. This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually, since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit (as far as anyone knows), and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 14
In article dannybpanixcom Daniel Burstein writes
A short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention
about how the Japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just
managed to crash or crashland a package on the moon
Their Hiten engineeringtest mission spent a while in a highly eccentric
Earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit
using some very tricky gravityassistlike maneuvering This meant that
it would crash on the Moon eventually since there is no such thing as
a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and I believe I recall
hearing recently that it was about to happen
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|
|I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
|current spending rules don't permit it to be workable. For this to
|work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
|minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
|enough to make this attractive to a private firm. Since they
|generally can't allocate money except one year at a time, the
|government can't provide such a tenant guarantee.
Fred.
Try reading a bit. THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses. They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract. THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts, that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.
Look at SSF. THis years funding is 2.2 Billion, 1.8 of which will
cover penalty clauses, due to the re-design.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 25
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable For this to
work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
enough to make this attractive to a private firm Since they
generally cant allocate money except one year at a time the
government cant provide such a tenant guarantee
Fred
Try reading a bit THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract THe reason they arent cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts that its now cheaper to just finish them out
Look at SSF THis years funding is 22 Billion 18 of which will
cover penalty clauses due to the redesign
pat
preprocess doc Subject: Space FAQ 05/15 - References
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:56:44 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <references_730956466@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 665
Archive-name: space/references
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:21 $
REFERENCES ON SPECIFIC AREAS
PUBLISHERS OF SPACE/ASTRONOMY MATERIAL
Astronomical Society of the Pacific
1290 24th Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94122
More expensive but better organized slide sets.
Cambridge University Press
32 East 57th Street
New York, NY 10022
Crawford-Peters Aeronautica
P.O. Box 152528
San Diego, CA 92115
(619) 287-3933
An excellent source of all kinds of space publications. They publish
a number of catalogs, including:
Aviation and Space, 1945-1962
Aviation and Space, 1962-1990
Space and Related Titles
European Southern Observatory
Information and Photographic Service
Dr R.M. West
Karl Scharzschild Strasse 2
D-8046 Garching bei Munchen
FRG
Slide sets, posters, photographs, conference proceedings.
Finley Holiday Film Corporation
12607 East Philadelphia Street
Whittier, California 90601
(213)945-3325
(800)FILMS-07
Wide selection of Apollo, Shuttle, Viking, and Voyager slides at ~50
cents/slide. Call for a catalog.
Hansen Planetarium (Utah)
Said to hold sales on old slide sets. Look in Sky & Telescope
for contact info.
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3303 NASA Road One
Houston, TX 77058-4399
Technical, geology-oriented slide sets, with supporting
booklets.
John Wiley & Sons
605 Third Avenue
New York, NY 10158-0012
Sky Publishing Corporation
PO Box 9111
Belmont, MA 02178-9111
Offers "Sky Catalogue 2000.0" on PC floppy with information
(including parallax) for 45000 stars.
Roger Wheate
Geography Dept.
University of Calgary, Alberta
Canada T2N 1N4
(403)-220-4892
(403)-282-7298 (FAX)
wheate@uncamult.bitnet
Offers a 40-slide set called "Mapping the Planets" illustrating
recent work in planetary cartography, comes with a booklet and
information on getting your own copies of the maps. $50 Canadian,
shipping included.
Superintendent of Documents
US Government Printing Office
Washington, DC 20402
Univelt, Inc.
P. O. Box 28130
San Diego, Ca. 92128
Publishers for the American Astronomical Society.
US Naval Observatory
202-653-1079 (USNO Bulletin Board via modem)
202-653-1507 General
Willmann-Bell
P.O. Box 35025
Richmond, Virginia 23235 USA
(804)-320-7016 9-5 EST M-F
CAREERS IN THE SPACE INDUSTRY
In 1990 the Princeton Planetary Society published the first edition of
"Space Jobs: The Guide to Careers in Space-Related Fields." The
publication was enormously successful: we distributed 2000 copies to
space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in
Great Britain, Australia, and Ecuador. Due to the tremendous response to
the first edition, PPS has published an expanded, up-to-date second
edition of the guide.
The 40-page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and full-time job
opportunities as well as graduate school programs. The second edition of
"Space Jobs" features strategies for entering the space field and
describes positions at consulting and engineering firms, NASA, and
non-profit organizations. The expanded special section on graduate
schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing
to space policy. Additional sections include tips on becoming an
astronaut and listings of NASA Space Grant Fellowships and Consortia, as
well as NASA Centers for the Commercial Development of Space.
To order send check or money order made payable to Princeton Planetary
Society for $4 per copy, plus $1 per copy for shipping and handling
(non-US customers send an International Money Order payable in US
dollars) to:
Princeton Planetary Society
315 West College
Princeton University
Princeton, NJ 08544
DC-X SINGLE-STAGE TO ORBIT (SSTO) PROGRAM
SDI's SSRT (Single Stage Rocket Technology) project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DC-X that should fly in
mid-1993. Further development towards an operational single-stage to
orbit vehicle (called Delta Clipper) is uncertain at present.
An collection of pictures and files relating to DC-X is available by
anonymous FTP or email server in the directory
bongo.cc.utexas.edu:pub/delta-clipper
Chris W. Johnson (chrisj@emx.cc.utexas.edu) maintains the archive.
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
Astronomical Union, and are not for sale. There are purely commercial
organizations which will, for a fee, send you pretty certificates and
star maps describing where to find "your" star. These organizations have
absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they
assign are not used by anyone else. It's also likely that you won't be
able to see "your" star without binoculars or a telescope. See the back
pages of Astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact
info; one such organization may be found at:
International Star Registry
34523 Wilson Road
Ingleside, IL 60041
This is not an endorsement of ISR.
LLNL "GREAT EXPLORATION"
The LLNL "Great Exploration", a plan for an on-the-cheap space station,
Lunar base, and Mars mission using inflatable space structures, excited
a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time. Some
references cited during net discussion were:
Avation Week Jan 22, 1990 for an article on the overall Great
Exploration
NASA Assessment of the LLNL Space Exploration Proposal and LLNL
Responses by Dr. Lowell Wood LLNL Doc. No. SS 90-9. Their address
is: PO Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 (the NASA authors are unknown).
Briefing slides of a presentation to the NRC last December may be
available. Write LLNL and ask.
Conceptual Design Study for Modular Inflatable Space Structures, a
final report for purchase order B098747 by ILC Dover INC. I don't
know how to get this except from LLNL or ILC Dover. I don't have an
address for ILC.
LUNAR PROSPECTOR
Lunar Exploration Inc. (LEI) is a non-profit corporation working on a
privately funded lunar polar orbiter. Lunar Prospector is designed to
perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the
poles. A set of reference files describing the project is available in
ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/LEI/*
LUNAR SCIENCE AND ACTIVITIES
Grant H Heiken, David T Vaniman, and Bevan M French (editors), "Lunar
Sourcebook, A User's Guide to the Moon", Cambridge University Press
1991, ISBN 0-521-33444-6; hardcover; expensive. A one-volume
encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the Moon, reviewing
current knowledge in considerable depth, with copious references. Heavy
emphasis on geology, but a lot more besides, including considerable
discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to
future mission design. *The* reference book for the Moon; all others are
obsolete.
Wendell Mendell (ed), "Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st
Century", $15. "Every serious student of lunar bases *must* have this
book" - Bill Higgins. Available from:
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3303 NASA Road One
Houston, TX 77058-4399
If you want to order books, call (713)486-2172.
Thomas A. Mutch, "Geology of the Moon: A Stratigraphic View", Princeton
University Press, 1970. Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions,
including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
various Orbiters.
ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
A list of Earth orbiting satellites (that are still in orbit) is
available by anonymous FTP in:
ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/Satellites
SPACECRAFT MODELS
"Space in Miniature #2: Gemini" by
Michael J. Mackowski
1621 Waterwood Lane, St. Louis, MO 63146
$7.50
Only 34pp but enough pictures & diagrams to interest more than just the
modelling community, I feel.
Marco's Miniatures of Dracut, Mass. have produced a 1/144 Skylab in an
edition of 500 & a 1/48 Lunar Rover (same scale as Monogram and Revell
Lunar Modules) in a similar edition. Prices are $45 for Skylab, $24 for
LRV. Check with them for postage etc. I have no connection with them,
but have found their service to be good and their stock of rare/old kits
*is* impressive. Prices range from reasonable ($35 for Monogram 1/32
scale Apollo CSM with cutaway details) to spectacular ($145 for Airfix
Vostok).
Four Star Collectibles
P.O. Box 658
Dracut Mass 01826, USA.
(508)-957-0695.
Voyager, HST, Viking, Lunar Rover etc. kits from:
Lunar Models
5120 Grisham
Rowlett, Texas 75088
(214)-475-4230
As reviewed by Bob Kaplow:
Peter Alway's book "Scale Model Rocketry" is now available. Mine
arrived in the mail earlier this week. To get your own copy, send
$19.95 + $2.50 s/h ($22.45 total) to:
Peter Alway
2830 Pittsfield
Ann Arbor, MI 48104
The book includes information on collecting scale data, construction
of scale models, and several handy tables. Appendicies include plans
for 3 sport scale models, a 1:9.22 D Region Tomahawk (BT50), a 1/40
V-2 (BT60), and a 1/9.16 Aerobee 150A (BT55/60).
I've only begun to study the book, but it certainly will be a
valuable data source for many modellers. Most vehicles include
several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the
rocket, various specs including "NAR" engine classification, along
with a dimensioned drawing, color layouts & paint pattern, and a
black & white photograph.
The vehicles included are the Aerobee 150A, Aerobee 300, Aerobee Hi,
Arcas, Asp, Astrobee 1500, Astrobee D, Atlas Centaur, Atlas-Agena,
Atlas-Score, Baby WAC, D-Region Tomahawk, Deacon Rockoon, Delta B,
Delta E, Gemini-Titan II, Iris, Javelin, Juno 1, Juno 2, Little Joe
1, Little Joe 2, Mercury-Atlas, Mercury-Redstone, Nike-Apache,
Nike-Asp, Nike-Cajun, Nike-Deacon, Nike-Tomahawk, RAM B, Saturn 1
Block 1, Saturn 1 Block 2, Saturn 1B, Saturn 5, Scout, Standard
Aerobee, Terrapin, Thor-Able, Titan III C, Titan III E, Trailblazer
1, V-2, Vanguard, Viking Model 1, Viking Model 2, and Wac Corporal.
ROCKET PROPULSION
George P. Sutton, "Rocket Propulsion Elements", 5th edn,
Wiley-Interscience 1986, ISBN 0-471-80027-9. Pricey textbook. The
best (nearly the only) modern introduction to the technical side of
rocketry. A good place to start if you want to know the details. Not
for the math-shy. Straight chemical rockets, essentially nothing on
more advanced propulsion (although earlier editions reportedly had
some coverage).
Dieter K. Huzel and David H. Huang, "Design of Liquid Propellant
Rocket Engines", NASA SP-125.
NTIS N71-29405 PC A20/MF A01 1971 461p
Out of print; reproductions may be obtained through the NTIS
(expensive). The complete and authoritative guide to designing
liquid-fuel engines. Reference #1 in most chapters of Sutton. Heavy
emphasis on practical issues, what works and what doesn't, what the
typical values of the fudge factors are. Stiff reading, massive
detail; written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers.
SPACECRAFT DESIGN
Brij N. Agrawal, "Design of Geosynchronous Spacecraft",
Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-200114-4.
James R. Wertz ed, "Spacecraft Attitude Determination and
Control", Kluwer, ISBN 90-277-1204-2.
P.R.K. Chetty, "Satellite Technology and its Applications",
McGraw-Hill, ISBN 0-8306-9688-1.
James R. Wertz and Wiley J. Larson (editors), "Space Mission
Analysis and Design", Kluwer Academic Publishers
(Dordrecht/Boston/London) 1991, ISBN 0-7923-0971-5 (paperback), or
0-7923-0970-7 (hardback).
This looks at system-level design of a spacecraft, rather than
detailed design. 23 chapters, 4 appendices, about 430 pages. It
leads the reader through the mission design and system-level
design of a fictitious earth-observation satellite, to
illustrate the principles that it tries to convey. Warning:
although the book is chock-full of many useful reference tables,
some of the numbers in at least one of those tables (launch
costs for various launchers) appear to be quite wrong. Can be
ordered by telephone, using a credit card; Kluwer's phone number
is (617)-871-6600. Cost $34.50.
ESOTERIC PROPULSION SCHEMES (SOLAR SAILS, LASERS, FUSION...)
This needs more and more up-to-date references, but it's a start.
ANTIMATTER:
"Antiproton Annihilation Propulsion", Robert Forward
AFRPL TR-85-034 from the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory
(AFRPL/XRX, Stop 24, Edwards Air Force Base, CA 93523-5000).
NTIS AD-A160 734/0 PC A10/MF A01
PC => Paper copy, A10 => $US57.90 -- or maybe Price Code?
MF => MicroFiche, A01 => $US13.90
Technical study on making, holding, and using antimatter for
near-term (30-50 years) propulsion systems. Excellent
bibliography. Forward is the best-known proponent
of antimatter.
This also may be available as UDR-TR-85-55 from the contractor,
the University of Dayton Research Institute, and DTIC AD-A160
from the Defense Technical Information Center, Defense Logistics
Agency, Cameron Station, Alexandria, VA 22304-6145. And it's
also available from the NTIS, with yet another number.
"Advanced Space Propulsion Study, Antiproton and Beamed Power
Propulsion", Robert Forward
AFAL TR-87-070 from the Air Force Astronautics Laboratory, DTIC
#AD-A189 218.
NTIS AD-A189 218/1 PC A10/MF A01
Summarizes the previous paper, goes into detail on beamed power
systems including " 1) pellet, microwave, and laser beamed power
systems for intersteller transport; 2) a design for a
near-relativistic laser-pushed lightsail using near-term laser
technology; 3) a survey of laser thermal propulsion, tether
transportation systems, antiproton annihilation propulsion,
exotic applications of solar sails, and laser-pushed
interstellar lightsails; 4) the status of antiproton
annihilation propulsion as of 1986; and 5) the prospects for
obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons." Again,
there is an extensive bibliography.
"Application of Antimatter - Electric Power to Interstellar
Propulsion", G. D. Nordley, JBIS Interstellar Studies issue of
6/90.
BUSSARD RAMJETS AND RELATED METHODS:
G. L. Matloff and A. J. Fennelly, "Interstellar Applications and
Limitations of Several Electrostatic/Electromagnetic Ion Collection
Techniques", JBIS 30 (1977):213-222
N. H. Langston, "The Erosion of Interstellar Drag Screens", JBIS 26
(1973): 481-484
C. Powell, "Flight Dynamics of the Ram-Augmented Interstellar
Rocket", JBIS 28 (1975):553-562
A. R. Martin, "The Effects of Drag on Relativistic Spacefight", JBIS
25 (1972):643-652
FUSION:
"A Laser Fusion Rocket for Interplanetary Propulsion", Roderick Hyde,
LLNL report UCRL-88857. (Contact the Technical Information Dept. at
Livermore)
Fusion Pellet design: Fuel selection. Energy loss mechanisms.
Pellet compression metrics. Thrust Chamber: Magnetic nozzle.
Shielding. Tritium breeding. Thermal modeling. Fusion Driver
(lasers, particle beams, etc): Heat rejection. Vehicle Summary:
Mass estimates. Vehicle Performance: Interstellar travel
required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusion's capability.
Interplanetary missions are limited by power/weight ratio.
Trajectory modeling. Typical mission profiles. References,
including the 1978 report in JBIS, "Project Daedalus", and
several on ICF and driver technology.
"Fusion as Electric Propulsion", Robert W. Bussard, Journal of
Propulsion and Power, Vol. 6, No. 5, Sept.-Oct. 1990
Fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion
systems, with propulsion thrust-power-input-power ratio (the
thrust-power "gain" G(t)) much greater than unity. Gain values
of conventional (solar, fission) electric propulsion systems are
always quite small (e.g., G(t)<0.8). With these, "high-thrust"
interplanetary flight is not possible, because system
acceleration (a(t)) capabilities are always less than the local
gravitational acceleration. In contrast, gain values 50-100
times higher are found for some fusion concepts, which offer
"high-thrust" flight capability. One performance example shows a
53.3 day (34.4 powered; 18.9 coast), one-way transit time with
19% payload for a single-stage Earth/Mars vehicle. Another shows
the potential for high acceleration (a(t)=0.55g(o)) flight in
Earth/moon space.
"The QED Engine System: Direct Electric Fusion-Powered Systems for
Aerospace Flight Propulsion" by Robert W. Bussard, EMC2-1190-03,
available from Energy/Matter Conversion Corp., 9100 A. Center
Street, Manassas, VA 22110.
[This is an introduction to the application of Bussard's version
of the Farnsworth/Hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion
technology to propulsion. 1500<Isp<5000 sec. Farnsworth/Hirsch
demonstrated a 10**10 neutron flux with their device back in
1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising
stability of the Soviet Tokamak. Hirsch, responsible for the
panic, has recently recanted and is back working on QED. -- Jim
Bowery]
"PLASMAKtm Star Power for Energy Intensive Space Applications", by
Paul M. Koloc, Eight ANS Topical Meeting on Technology of Fusion
Energy, special issue FUSION TECHNOLOGY, March 1989.
Aneutronic energy (fusion with little or negligible neutron
flux) requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times
larger than can be delivered by current approaches. If plasma
pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds
could be achieved in aneutronic fuels, then high power densities
and very compact, realtively clean burning engines for space and
other special applications would be at hand. The PLASMAKtm
innovation will make this possible; its unique pressure
efficient structure, exceptional stability, fluid-mechanically
compressible Mantle and direct inductive MHD electric power
conversion advantages are described. Peak burn densities of tens
of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the
multi-gigawatt electric output size. Engineering advantages
indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost. [I
strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously. Bob
Hirsch, the primary proponent of the Tokamak, has recently
declared Koloc's PLASMAKtm precursor, the spheromak, to be one
of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather
than Tokamak. Aside from the preceeding appeal to authority, the
PLASMAKtm looks like it finally models ball-lightning with solid
MHD physics. -- Jim Bowery]
ION DRIVES:
Retrieve files pub/SPACE/SPACELINK/6.5.2.* from the Ames SPACE
archive; these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the
SERT I and II missions, which flight-tested cesium ion thrusters in
the 1960s and 70s. There are numerous references.
MASS DRIVERS (COILGUNS, RAILGUNS):
IEEE Transactions on Magnetics (for example, v. 27 no. 1, January
1991 issue). Every so often they publish the proceedings of the
Symposium on Electromagnetic Launcher Technology, including hundreds
of papers on the subject. It's a good look at the state of the art,
though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners. Anybody know some
good review papers?
NUCLEAR ROCKETS (FISSION):
"Technical Notes on Nuclear Rockets", by Bruce W. Knight and Donald
Kingsbury, unpublished. May be available from: Donald Kingsbury,
Math Dept., McGill University, PO Box 6070, Station A, Montreal,
Quebec M3C 3G1 Canada.
SOLAR SAILS:
Starsailing. Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel. Louis Friedman,
Wiley, New York, 1988, 146 pp., paper $9.95. (Not very technical,
but an adequate overview.)
"Roundtrip Interstellar Travel Using Laser-Pushed Lightsails
(Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, vol. 21, pp. 187-95, Jan.-Feb.
1984)
TETHERS:
_Tethers and Asteroids for Artificial Gravity Assist in the Solar
System,_ by P.A. Penzo and H.L. Mayer., _Journal of Spacecraft
and Rockets_ for Jan-Feb 1986.
Details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass
can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 km/sec. if
it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid.
GENERAL:
"Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources", Robert Forward
AFPRL TR-83-067.
NTIS AD-B088 771/1 PC A07/MF A01 Dec 83 138p
Keywords: Propulsion energy, metastable helium, free-radical
hydrogen, solar pumped (sic) plasmas, antiproton annihiliation,
ionospheric lasers, solar sails, perforated sails, microwave
sails, quantum fluctuations, antimatter rockets... It's a wide,
if not deep, look at exotic energy sources which might be useful
for space propulsion. It also considers various kinds of laser
propulsion, metallic hydrogen, tethers, and unconventional
nuclear propulsion. The bibliographic information, pointing to
the research on all this stuff, belongs on every daydreamer's
shelf.
Future Magic. Dr. Robert L. Forward, Avon, 1988. ISBN 0-380-89814-4.
Nontechnical discussion of tethers, antimatter, gravity control,
and even futher-out topics.
SPY SATELLITES
*Deep Black*, by William Burrows;
"best modern general book for spysats."
1) A Base For Debate: The US Satellite Station at Nurrungar, Des Ball,
Allen and Unwin Australia, 1987 ISBN 0 04 355027 4 [ covers DSP early
warning satellites]
2) Pine Gap: Australia and the US Geostationary Signals intelligence
satellite program, Des Ball, Allen and Unwin Australia, 1988 ISBN 0 04
363002 5. [covers RHYOLITE/AQUACADE, CHALET/VORTEX, and MAGNUM signals
intelligence satellites]
3) Guardians: Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites, Curtis Peebles, 1987,
Ian Allan, ISBN 0 7110 17654 [ good on MOL, military Salyut and Soviet
satellites, less so on others. Tends to believe what he's told so flaws
in discussion of DSP, RHYOLITE et al..]
4) America's Secret Eyes In Space: The Keyhole Spy Satellite Program,
Jeffrey Richelson, 1990, Harper and Row, ISBN 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class
of its own, *the* historical reference on the KEYHOLE satellites]
5) Secret Sentries in Space, Philip J Klass, 1971.
"long out of print but well worth a look"
SPACE SHUTTLE COMPUTER SYSTEMS
%J Communications of the ACM
%V 27
%N 9
%D September 1984
%K Special issue on space [shuttle] computers
%A Myron Kayton
%T Avionics for Manned Spacecraft
%J IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems
%V 25
%N 6
%D November 1989
%P 786-827
Other various AIAA and IEEE publications.
Computers in Spaceflight: The NASA Experience
James E. Tomayko
1988?
SETI COMPUTATION (SIGNAL PROCESSING)
%A D. K. Cullers
%A Ivan R. Linscott
%A Bernard M. Oliver
%T Signal Processing in SETI
%J Communications of the ACM
%V 28
%N 11
%D November 1984
%P 1151-1163
%K CR Categories and Subject Descriptors: D.4.1 [Operating Systems]:
Process Management - concurrency; I.5.4 [Pattern Recognition]:
Applications - signal processing; J.2 [Phsyical Sciences and Engineering]:
astronomy
General Terms: Design
Additional Key Words and Phrases: digital Fourier transforms,
finite impulse-response filters, interstellar communications,
Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence, signal detection,
spectrum analysis
AMATEUR SATELLIES & WEATHER SATELLITES
A fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite
photos is available from the Ames SPACE archive in
pub/SPACE/FAQ/WeatherPhotos.
The American Radio Relay League publication service offers the following
references (also see the section on AMSAT in the space groups segment of
the FAQ):
ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook, #3185, $20
ARRL Weather Satellite Handbook, #3193, $20
IBM-PC software for Weather Satellite Handbook, #3290, $10
AMSAT NA 5th Space Symposium, #0739, $12
AMSAT NA 6th Space Symposium, #2219, $12
Shipping is extra.
The American Radio Relay League
Publications Department
225 Main Street
Newington, CT 06111
(203)-666-1541
TIDES
Srinivas Bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides, available from the
Ames SPACE archive in pub/SPACE/FAQ/Tides. It covers the following
areas:
- 2-D Example of Tidal Deformation
- Treatment of Tidal Fields in Practice
- Long term evolution of the Earth-Moon system under tides
The writeup refers to the following texts:
"Geophysical Geodesy" by K. Lambeck
"Tides of the planet Earth" by P. Melchior
NEXT: FAQ #6/15 - Constants and equations for calculations
after prepro Subject Space FAQ 0515 References
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195644 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 665
Archivename spacereferences
Lastmodified Date 930401 143921
REFERENCES ON SPECIFIC AREAS
PUBLISHERS OF SPACEASTRONOMY MATERIAL
Astronomical Society of the Pacific
1290 24th Avenue
San Francisco CA 94122
More expensive but better organized slide sets
Cambridge University Press
32 East 57th Street
New York NY 10022
CrawfordPeters Aeronautica
PO Box 152528
San Diego CA 92115
619 2873933
An excellent source of all kinds of space publications They publish
a number of catalogs including
Aviation and Space 19451962
Aviation and Space 19621990
Space and Related Titles
European Southern Observatory
Information and Photographic Service
Dr RM West
Karl Scharzschild Strasse 2
D8046 Garching bei Munchen
FRG
Slide sets posters photographs conference proceedings
Finley Holiday Film Corporation
12607 East Philadelphia Street
Whittier California 90601
2139453325
800FILMS07
Wide selection of Apollo Shuttle Viking and Voyager slides at 50
centsslide Call for a catalog
Hansen Planetarium Utah
Said to hold sales on old slide sets Look in Sky Telescope
for contact info
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3303 NASA Road One
Houston TX 770584399
Technical geologyoriented slide sets with supporting
booklets
John Wiley Sons
605 Third Avenue
New York NY 101580012
Sky Publishing Corporation
PO Box 9111
Belmont MA 021789111
Offers Sky Catalogue 20000 on PC floppy with information
including parallax for 45000 stars
Roger Wheate
Geography Dept
University of Calgary Alberta
Canada T2N 1N4
4032204892
4032827298 FAX
wheateuncamultbitnet
Offers a 40slide set called Mapping the Planets illustrating
recent work in planetary cartography comes with a booklet and
information on getting your own copies of the maps 50 Canadian
shipping included
Superintendent of Documents
US Government Printing Office
Washington DC 20402
Univelt Inc
P O Box 28130
San Diego Ca 92128
Publishers for the American Astronomical Society
US Naval Observatory
2026531079 USNO Bulletin Board via modem
2026531507 General
WillmannBell
PO Box 35025
Richmond Virginia 23235 USA
8043207016 95 EST MF
CAREERS IN THE SPACE INDUSTRY
In 1990 the Princeton Planetary Society published the first edition of
Space Jobs The Guide to Careers in SpaceRelated Fields The
publication was enormously successful we distributed 2000 copies to
space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in
Great Britain Australia and Ecuador Due to the tremendous response to
the first edition PPS has published an expanded uptodate second
edition of the guide
The 40page publication boasts 69 listings for summer and fulltime job
opportunities as well as graduate school programs The second edition of
Space Jobs features strategies for entering the space field and
describes positions at consulting and engineering firms NASA and
nonprofit organizations The expanded special section on graduate
schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing
to space policy Additional sections include tips on becoming an
astronaut and listings of NASA Space Grant Fellowships and Consortia as
well as NASA Centers for the Commercial Development of Space
To order send check or money order made payable to Princeton Planetary
Society for 4 per copy plus 1 per copy for shipping and handling
nonUS customers send an International Money Order payable in US
dollars to
Princeton Planetary Society
315 West College
Princeton University
Princeton NJ 08544
DCX SINGLESTAGE TO ORBIT SSTO PROGRAM
SDIs SSRT Single Stage Rocket Technology project has funded a
suborbital technology demonstrator called DCX that should fly in
mid1993 Further development towards an operational singlestage to
orbit vehicle called Delta Clipper is uncertain at present
An collection of pictures and files relating to DCX is available by
anonymous FTP or email server in the directory
bongoccutexasedupubdeltaclipper
Chris W Johnson chrisjemxccutexasedu maintains the archive
HOW TO NAME A STAR AFTER A PERSON
Official names are decided by committees of the International
Astronomical Union and are not for sale There are purely commercial
organizations which will for a fee send you pretty certificates and
star maps describing where to find your star These organizations have
absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they
assign are not used by anyone else Its also likely that you wont be
able to see your star without binoculars or a telescope See the back
pages of Astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact
info one such organization may be found at
International Star Registry
34523 Wilson Road
Ingleside IL 60041
This is not an endorsement of ISR
LLNL GREAT EXPLORATION
The LLNL Great Exploration a plan for an onthecheap space station
Lunar base and Mars mission using inflatable space structures excited
a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time Some
references cited during net discussion were
Avation Week Jan 22 1990 for an article on the overall Great
Exploration
NASA Assessment of the LLNL Space Exploration Proposal and LLNL
Responses by Dr Lowell Wood LLNL Doc No SS 909 Their address
is PO Box 808 Livermore CA 94550 the NASA authors are unknown
Briefing slides of a presentation to the NRC last December may be
available Write LLNL and ask
Conceptual Design Study for Modular Inflatable Space Structures a
final report for purchase order B098747 by ILC Dover INC I dont
know how to get this except from LLNL or ILC Dover I dont have an
address for ILC
LUNAR PROSPECTOR
Lunar Exploration Inc LEI is a nonprofit corporation working on a
privately funded lunar polar orbiter Lunar Prospector is designed to
perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the
poles A set of reference files describing the project is available in
amesarcnasagovpubSPACELEI
LUNAR SCIENCE AND ACTIVITIES
Grant H Heiken David T Vaniman and Bevan M French editors Lunar
Sourcebook A Users Guide to the Moon Cambridge University Press
1991 ISBN 0521334446 hardcover expensive A onevolume
encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the Moon reviewing
current knowledge in considerable depth with copious references Heavy
emphasis on geology but a lot more besides including considerable
discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to
future mission design The reference book for the Moon all others are
obsolete
Wendell Mendell ed Lunar Bases and Space Activities of the 21st
Century 15 Every serious student of lunar bases must have this
book Bill Higgins Available from
Lunar and Planetary Institute
3303 NASA Road One
Houston TX 770584399
If you want to order books call 7134862172
Thomas A Mutch Geology of the Moon A Stratigraphic View Princeton
University Press 1970 Information about the Lunar Orbiter missions
including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by
various Orbiters
ORBITING EARTH SATELLITE HISTORIES
A list of Earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is
available by anonymous FTP in
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQSatellites
SPACECRAFT MODELS
Space in Miniature 2 Gemini by
Michael J Mackowski
1621 Waterwood Lane St Louis MO 63146
750
Only 34pp but enough pictures diagrams to interest more than just the
modelling community I feel
Marcos Miniatures of Dracut Mass have produced a 1144 Skylab in an
edition of 500 a 148 Lunar Rover same scale as Monogram and Revell
Lunar Modules in a similar edition Prices are 45 for Skylab 24 for
LRV Check with them for postage etc I have no connection with them
but have found their service to be good and their stock of rareold kits
is impressive Prices range from reasonable 35 for Monogram 132
scale Apollo CSM with cutaway details to spectacular 145 for Airfix
Vostok
Four Star Collectibles
PO Box 658
Dracut Mass 01826 USA
5089570695
Voyager HST Viking Lunar Rover etc kits from
Lunar Models
5120 Grisham
Rowlett Texas 75088
2144754230
As reviewed by Bob Kaplow
Peter Always book Scale Model Rocketry is now available Mine
arrived in the mail earlier this week To get your own copy send
1995 250 sh 2245 total to
Peter Alway
2830 Pittsfield
Ann Arbor MI 48104
The book includes information on collecting scale data construction
of scale models and several handy tables Appendicies include plans
for 3 sport scale models a 1922 D Region Tomahawk BT50 a 140
V2 BT60 and a 1916 Aerobee 150A BT5560
Ive only begun to study the book but it certainly will be a
valuable data source for many modellers Most vehicles include
several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the
rocket various specs including NAR engine classification along
with a dimensioned drawing color layouts paint pattern and a
black white photograph
The vehicles included are the Aerobee 150A Aerobee 300 Aerobee Hi
Arcas Asp Astrobee 1500 Astrobee D Atlas Centaur AtlasAgena
AtlasScore Baby WAC DRegion Tomahawk Deacon Rockoon Delta B
Delta E GeminiTitan II Iris Javelin Juno 1 Juno 2 Little Joe
1 Little Joe 2 MercuryAtlas MercuryRedstone NikeApache
NikeAsp NikeCajun NikeDeacon NikeTomahawk RAM B Saturn 1
Block 1 Saturn 1 Block 2 Saturn 1B Saturn 5 Scout Standard
Aerobee Terrapin ThorAble Titan III C Titan III E Trailblazer
1 V2 Vanguard Viking Model 1 Viking Model 2 and Wac Corporal
ROCKET PROPULSION
George P Sutton Rocket Propulsion Elements 5th edn
WileyInterscience 1986 ISBN 0471800279 Pricey textbook The
best nearly the only modern introduction to the technical side of
rocketry A good place to start if you want to know the details Not
for the mathshy Straight chemical rockets essentially nothing on
more advanced propulsion although earlier editions reportedly had
some coverage
Dieter K Huzel and David H Huang Design of Liquid Propellant
Rocket Engines NASA SP125
NTIS N7129405 PC A20MF A01 1971 461p
Out of print reproductions may be obtained through the NTIS
expensive The complete and authoritative guide to designing
liquidfuel engines Reference 1 in most chapters of Sutton Heavy
emphasis on practical issues what works and what doesnt what the
typical values of the fudge factors are Stiff reading massive
detail written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers
SPACECRAFT DESIGN
Brij N Agrawal Design of Geosynchronous Spacecraft
PrenticeHall ISBN 0132001144
James R Wertz ed Spacecraft Attitude Determination and
Control Kluwer ISBN 9027712042
PRK Chetty Satellite Technology and its Applications
McGrawHill ISBN 0830696881
James R Wertz and Wiley J Larson editors Space Mission
Analysis and Design Kluwer Academic Publishers
DordrechtBostonLondon 1991 ISBN 0792309715 paperback or
0792309707 hardback
This looks at systemlevel design of a spacecraft rather than
detailed design 23 chapters 4 appendices about 430 pages It
leads the reader through the mission design and systemlevel
design of a fictitious earthobservation satellite to
illustrate the principles that it tries to convey Warning
although the book is chockfull of many useful reference tables
some of the numbers in at least one of those tables launch
costs for various launchers appear to be quite wrong Can be
ordered by telephone using a credit card Kluwers phone number
is 6178716600 Cost 3450
ESOTERIC PROPULSION SCHEMES SOLAR SAILS LASERS FUSION
This needs more and more uptodate references but its a start
ANTIMATTER
Antiproton Annihilation Propulsion Robert Forward
AFRPL TR85034 from the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory
AFRPLXRX Stop 24 Edwards Air Force Base CA 935235000
NTIS ADA160 7340 PC A10MF A01
PC Paper copy A10 US5790 or maybe Price Code
MF MicroFiche A01 US1390
Technical study on making holding and using antimatter for
nearterm 3050 years propulsion systems Excellent
bibliography Forward is the bestknown proponent
of antimatter
This also may be available as UDRTR8555 from the contractor
the University of Dayton Research Institute and DTIC ADA160
from the Defense Technical Information Center Defense Logistics
Agency Cameron Station Alexandria VA 223046145 And its
also available from the NTIS with yet another number
Advanced Space Propulsion Study Antiproton and Beamed Power
Propulsion Robert Forward
AFAL TR87070 from the Air Force Astronautics Laboratory DTIC
ADA189 218
NTIS ADA189 2181 PC A10MF A01
Summarizes the previous paper goes into detail on beamed power
systems including 1 pellet microwave and laser beamed power
systems for intersteller transport 2 a design for a
nearrelativistic laserpushed lightsail using nearterm laser
technology 3 a survey of laser thermal propulsion tether
transportation systems antiproton annihilation propulsion
exotic applications of solar sails and laserpushed
interstellar lightsails 4 the status of antiproton
annihilation propulsion as of 1986 and 5 the prospects for
obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons Again
there is an extensive bibliography
Application of Antimatter Electric Power to Interstellar
Propulsion G D Nordley JBIS Interstellar Studies issue of
690
BUSSARD RAMJETS AND RELATED METHODS
G L Matloff and A J Fennelly Interstellar Applications and
Limitations of Several ElectrostaticElectromagnetic Ion Collection
Techniques JBIS 30 1977213222
N H Langston The Erosion of Interstellar Drag Screens JBIS 26
1973 481484
C Powell Flight Dynamics of the RamAugmented Interstellar
Rocket JBIS 28 1975553562
A R Martin The Effects of Drag on Relativistic Spacefight JBIS
25 1972643652
FUSION
A Laser Fusion Rocket for Interplanetary Propulsion Roderick Hyde
LLNL report UCRL88857 Contact the Technical Information Dept at
Livermore
Fusion Pellet design Fuel selection Energy loss mechanisms
Pellet compression metrics Thrust Chamber Magnetic nozzle
Shielding Tritium breeding Thermal modeling Fusion Driver
lasers particle beams etc Heat rejection Vehicle Summary
Mass estimates Vehicle Performance Interstellar travel
required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusions capability
Interplanetary missions are limited by powerweight ratio
Trajectory modeling Typical mission profiles References
including the 1978 report in JBIS Project Daedalus and
several on ICF and driver technology
Fusion as Electric Propulsion Robert W Bussard Journal of
Propulsion and Power Vol 6 No 5 SeptOct 1990
Fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion
systems with propulsion thrustpowerinputpower ratio the
thrustpower gain Gt much greater than unity Gain values
of conventional solar fission electric propulsion systems are
always quite small eg Gt08 With these highthrust
interplanetary flight is not possible because system
acceleration at capabilities are always less than the local
gravitational acceleration In contrast gain values 50100
times higher are found for some fusion concepts which offer
highthrust flight capability One performance example shows a
533 day 344 powered 189 coast oneway transit time with
19 payload for a singlestage EarthMars vehicle Another shows
the potential for high acceleration at055go flight in
Earthmoon space
The QED Engine System Direct Electric FusionPowered Systems for
Aerospace Flight Propulsion by Robert W Bussard EMC2119003
available from EnergyMatter Conversion Corp 9100 A Center
Street Manassas VA 22110
[This is an introduction to the application of Bussards version
of the FarnsworthHirsch electrostatic confinement fusion
technology to propulsion 1500Isp5000 sec FarnsworthHirsch
demonstrated a 1010 neutron flux with their device back in
1969 but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising
stability of the Soviet Tokamak Hirsch responsible for the
panic has recently recanted and is back working on QED Jim
Bowery]
PLASMAKtm Star Power for Energy Intensive Space Applications by
Paul M Koloc Eight ANS Topical Meeting on Technology of Fusion
Energy special issue FUSION TECHNOLOGY March 1989
Aneutronic energy fusion with little or negligible neutron
flux requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times
larger than can be delivered by current approaches If plasma
pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds
could be achieved in aneutronic fuels then high power densities
and very compact realtively clean burning engines for space and
other special applications would be at hand The PLASMAKtm
innovation will make this possible its unique pressure
efficient structure exceptional stability fluidmechanically
compressible Mantle and direct inductive MHD electric power
conversion advantages are described Peak burn densities of tens
of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the
multigigawatt electric output size Engineering advantages
indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost [I
strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously Bob
Hirsch the primary proponent of the Tokamak has recently
declared Kolocs PLASMAKtm precursor the spheromak to be one
of 3 promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather
than Tokamak Aside from the preceeding appeal to authority the
PLASMAKtm looks like it finally models balllightning with solid
MHD physics Jim Bowery]
ION DRIVES
Retrieve files pubSPACESPACELINK652 from the Ames SPACE
archive these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the
SERT I and II missions which flighttested cesium ion thrusters in
the 1960s and 70s There are numerous references
MASS DRIVERS COILGUNS RAILGUNS
IEEE Transactions on Magnetics for example v 27 no 1 January
1991 issue Every so often they publish the proceedings of the
Symposium on Electromagnetic Launcher Technology including hundreds
of papers on the subject Its a good look at the state of the art
though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners Anybody know some
good review papers
NUCLEAR ROCKETS FISSION
Technical Notes on Nuclear Rockets by Bruce W Knight and Donald
Kingsbury unpublished May be available from Donald Kingsbury
Math Dept McGill University PO Box 6070 Station A Montreal
Quebec M3C 3G1 Canada
SOLAR SAILS
Starsailing Solar Sails and Interstellar Travel Louis Friedman
Wiley New York 1988 146 pp paper 995 Not very technical
but an adequate overview
Roundtrip Interstellar Travel Using LaserPushed Lightsails
Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets vol 21 pp 18795 JanFeb
1984
TETHERS
_Tethers and Asteroids for Artificial Gravity Assist in the Solar
System_ by PA Penzo and HL Mayer _Journal of Spacecraft
and Rockets_ for JanFeb 1986
Details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass
can change its velocity by up to slightly less than 1 kmsec if
it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid
GENERAL
Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources Robert Forward
AFPRL TR83067
NTIS ADB088 7711 PC A07MF A01 Dec 83 138p
Keywords Propulsion energy metastable helium freeradical
hydrogen solar pumped sic plasmas antiproton annihiliation
ionospheric lasers solar sails perforated sails microwave
sails quantum fluctuations antimatter rockets Its a wide
if not deep look at exotic energy sources which might be useful
for space propulsion It also considers various kinds of laser
propulsion metallic hydrogen tethers and unconventional
nuclear propulsion The bibliographic information pointing to
the research on all this stuff belongs on every daydreamers
shelf
Future Magic Dr Robert L Forward Avon 1988 ISBN 0380898144
Nontechnical discussion of tethers antimatter gravity control
and even futherout topics
SPY SATELLITES
Deep Black by William Burrows
best modern general book for spysats
1 A Base For Debate The US Satellite Station at Nurrungar Des Ball
Allen and Unwin Australia 1987 ISBN 0 04 355027 4 [ covers DSP early
warning satellites]
2 Pine Gap Australia and the US Geostationary Signals intelligence
satellite program Des Ball Allen and Unwin Australia 1988 ISBN 0 04
363002 5 [covers RHYOLITEAQUACADE CHALETVORTEX and MAGNUM signals
intelligence satellites]
3 Guardians Strategic Reconnaissance Satellites Curtis Peebles 1987
Ian Allan ISBN 0 7110 17654 [ good on MOL military Salyut and Soviet
satellites less so on others Tends to believe what hes told so flaws
in discussion of DSP RHYOLITE et al]
4 Americas Secret Eyes In Space The Keyhole Spy Satellite Program
Jeffrey Richelson 1990 Harper and Row ISBN 0 88730 285 8 [ in a class
of its own the historical reference on the KEYHOLE satellites]
5 Secret Sentries in Space Philip J Klass 1971
long out of print but well worth a look
SPACE SHUTTLE COMPUTER SYSTEMS
J Communications of the ACM
V 27
N 9
D September 1984
K Special issue on space [shuttle] computers
A Myron Kayton
T Avionics for Manned Spacecraft
J IEEE Transactions on Aerospace and Electronic Systems
V 25
N 6
D November 1989
P 786827
Other various AIAA and IEEE publications
Computers in Spaceflight The NASA Experience
James E Tomayko
1988
SETI COMPUTATION SIGNAL PROCESSING
A D K Cullers
A Ivan R Linscott
A Bernard M Oliver
T Signal Processing in SETI
J Communications of the ACM
V 28
N 11
D November 1984
P 11511163
K CR Categories and Subject Descriptors D41 [Operating Systems]
Process Management concurrency I54 [Pattern Recognition]
Applications signal processing J2 [Phsyical Sciences and Engineering]
astronomy
General Terms Design
Additional Key Words and Phrases digital Fourier transforms
finite impulseresponse filters interstellar communications
Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence signal detection
spectrum analysis
AMATEUR SATELLIES WEATHER SATELLITES
A fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite
photos is available from the Ames SPACE archive in
pubSPACEFAQWeatherPhotos
The American Radio Relay League publication service offers the following
references also see the section on AMSAT in the space groups segment of
the FAQ
ARRL Satellite Experimenters Handbook 3185 20
ARRL Weather Satellite Handbook 3193 20
IBMPC software for Weather Satellite Handbook 3290 10
AMSAT NA 5th Space Symposium 0739 12
AMSAT NA 6th Space Symposium 2219 12
Shipping is extra
The American Radio Relay League
Publications Department
225 Main Street
Newington CT 06111
2036661541
TIDES
Srinivas Bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides available from the
Ames SPACE archive in pubSPACEFAQTides It covers the following
areas
2D Example of Tidal Deformation
Treatment of Tidal Fields in Practice
Long term evolution of the EarthMoon system under tides
The writeup refers to the following texts
Geophysical Geodesy by K Lambeck
Tides of the planet Earth by P Melchior
NEXT FAQ 615 Constants and equations for calculations
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: sgi
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qlef4INN8dn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> [...]
|> >>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly. People
|> >>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
|> >That's not true. I gave you two examples. One was the rather
|> >pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
|> >arrived. The other was the system of social ranks that were used
|> >in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
|> >of the population.
|>
|> These don't seem like "little things" to me. At least, they are orders
|> worse than the motto. Do you think that the motto is a "little thing"
|> that will lead to worse things?
You don't think these are little things because with twenty-twenty
hindsight, you know what they led to.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
[]
The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
Thats not true I gave you two examples One was the rather
pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
of the population
These dont seem like little things to me At least they are orders
worse than the motto Do you think that the motto is a little thing
that will lead to worse things
You dont think these are little things because with twentytwenty
hindsight you know what they led to
jon
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Free Moral Agency and Kent S.
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 19
In article <healta.140.734925835@saturn.wwc.edu>, healta@saturn.wwc.edu
(Tammy R Healy) wrote:
> At the time Ezekiel was written, Israel was in apostacy again and if I'm not
> mistaken, Tyre was about to make war on Israel. Like I said, the Prince of
> Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre. He was a wicked man. By calling Satan
> the King of Tyre, Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre.
Tammy, is this all explicitly stated in the bible, or do you assume
that you know that Ezekiel indirectly mentioned? It could have been
another metaphor, for instance Ezekiel was mad at his landlord, so he
talked about him when he wrote about the prince of Tyre.
Sorry, but my interpretation is more mundane, Ezekiel wrote about
the prince of Tyre when we wrote about the prince of Tyre.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Free Moral Agency and Kent S
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 19
In article healtasaturnwwcedu
Tammy R Healy wrote
At the time Ezekiel was written Israel was in apostacy again and if Im not
mistaken Tyre was about to make war on Israel Like I said the Prince of
Tyre was the human ruler of Tyre He was a wicked man By calling Satan
the King of Tyre Ezekiel was saying that Satan is the real ruler over Tyre
Tammy is this all explicitly stated in the bible or do you assume
that you know that Ezekiel indirectly mentioned It could have been
another metaphor for instance Ezekiel was mad at his landlord so he
talked about him when he wrote about the prince of Tyre
Sorry but my interpretation is more mundane Ezekiel wrote about
the prince of Tyre when we wrote about the prince of Tyre
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Subject: Re: Jewish Settlers Demolish a Mosque in Gaza
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 41
In <C5IwxM.G0z@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>In article <kutluk.734797558@ccl.umist.ac.uk> kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:
>>Atheists are not
>>mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view, and a
>>minute's reasoning, one can see that there is no such thing.
> But there are people who say that they are Atheists. If they aren't Atheists,
>what are they?
When the Quran uses the word *din* it means way of individual thinking, behaving,
communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs. This is often
interpreted as the much weaker term religion.
The atheists are not mentioned in the Quran along with Jews,
Mushriqin, Christians, etc. because the latter are all din. To have a
din you need a set of beliefs, assumptions, etc, to forma a social
code. For example the Marxist have those, such as History, Conflict,
etc. That they do not put idols (sometimes they did) to represent
those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other
Mushriq, or roughly polytheists.
There cannot be social Atheism, because when there is a community,
that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate
the society. When they inscribe assumptions, say Nation, or "Progress is
the natural consequence of Human activity" or "parlamentarian
democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government", however
they individually insist they do not have gods, from the Quranic point
of view they do. Therefore by definition, atheism does not exist.
"We are a atheist society" in fact means "we reject the din other than
ours".
Atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols/gods/dogmas/
suppositions/.. of the society that they part, and in that case that
is a personal deviation of belief, and Quran tells about such
deviations and disbelief. But as I mentioned, from a Quranic point of
looking at things, there is no Atheism in the macro level.
I think it took more than one minute.
Kutluk
after prepro From kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven
Subject Re Jewish Settlers Demolish a Mosque in Gaza
Organization Manchester Computing Centre
Lines 41
In d9bertildtekchalmersse Bertil Jonell writes
In article kutlukcclumistacuk Kutluk Ozguven writes
Atheists are not
mentioned in the Quran because from a Quranic point of view and a
minutes reasoning one can see that there is no such thing
But there are people who say that they are Atheists If they arent Atheists
what are they
When the Quran uses the word din it means way of individual thinking behaving
communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs This is often
interpreted as the much weaker term religion
The atheists are not mentioned in the Quran along with Jews
Mushriqin Christians etc because the latter are all din To have a
din you need a set of beliefs assumptions etc to forma a social
code For example the Marxist have those such as History Conflict
etc That they do not put idols sometimes they did to represent
those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other
Mushriq or roughly polytheists
There cannot be social Atheism because when there is a community
that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate
the society When they inscribe assumptions say Nation or Progress is
the natural consequence of Human activity or parlamentarian
democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government however
they individually insist they do not have gods from the Quranic point
of view they do Therefore by definition atheism does not exist
We are a atheist society in fact means we reject the din other than
ours
Atheism can only exist when people reject all the idolsgodsdogmas
suppositions of the society that they part and in that case that
is a personal deviation of belief and Quran tells about such
deviations and disbelief But as I mentioned from a Quranic point of
looking at things there is no Atheism in the macro level
I think it took more than one minute
Kutluk
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: An Anecdote about Islam
In-Reply-To: <1pqfic$9s2@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 32
>DATE: 5 Apr 1993 23:32:28 GMT
>FROM: Jon Livesey <livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com>
>
>In article <114127@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>|>
>|> I don't understand the point of this petty sarcasm. It is a basic
>|> principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says "I testify
>|> that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God" that,
>|> so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
>|> be considered muslim by all muslims. So the phenomenon you're attempting
>|> to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
>|> Islamic principles. If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
>|> than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts.
>
>Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
>bad acts, people temporarily become atheists?
>
>jon.
Of course B.M. is not incorrect. He is defending Islam. When defending
Islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize
you. But when an atheist uses the same argument he is using "petty sarcasm". So
B.M. can have his "temporary atheists" whenever he needs them and all the
"temporary atheists" can later say that they were always good Muslims because
they never explicitly rejected Islam.
Temporary atheism, temporary Islam, temporary marriage. None of it sticks.
A teflon religion. How convenient. And so easy to clean up after. But
then, what would you expect from a bunch of people who can't even agree on
the phases of the moon?
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re An Anecdote about Islam
InReplyTo 1pqfic9s2fidoasdsgicom
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 32
DATE 5 Apr 1993 233228 GMT
FROM Jon Livesey
In article 114127buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
I dont understand the point of this petty sarcasm It is a basic
principle of Islam that if one is born muslim or one says I testify
that there is no god but God and Mohammad is a prophet of God that
so long as one does not explicitly reject Islam by word then one _must_
be considered muslim by all muslims So the phenomenon youre attempting
to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic
Islamic principles If you want to attack Islam you could do better than
than to argue against something that Islam explicitly contradicts
Then Mr Mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing
bad acts people temporarily become atheists
jon
Of course BM is not incorrect He is defending Islam When defending
Islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize
you But when an atheist uses the same argument he is using petty sarcasm So
BM can have his temporary atheists whenever he needs them and all the
temporary atheists can later say that they were always good Muslims because
they never explicitly rejected Islam
Temporary atheism temporary Islam temporary marriage None of it sticks
A teflon religion How convenient And so easy to clean up after But
then what would you expect from a bunch of people who cant even agree on
the phases of the moon
preprocess doc From: mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Lines: 21
In article <JVIGNEAU.93Apr5182106@cs.ulowell.edu> jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu (Joe Vigneau) writes:
>
>If anything, the BSA has taught me, I don't know, tolerance or something.
>Before I met this guy, I thought all gays were 'faries'. So, the BSA HAS
>taught me to be an antibigot.
I could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout
back in the 1960s. The issue wasn't gays, but the principles were the
same. Thanks for a well put testimonial. Stan Krieger and his kind who
think this discussion doesn't belong here and his intolerance is the
only acceptable position in scouting should take notice. The BSA has
been hijacked by the religious right, but some of the core values have
survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts
haven't given up. Seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that
scouting is still worth fighting for.
On a cautionary note, you must realize that if your experience with this
camp leader was in the BSA you may be putting him at risk by publicizing
it. Word could leak out to the BSA gestapo.
Bill Mayne
after prepro From maynepipecsfsuedu William Mayne
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
Organization Florida State University Computer Science Department
ReplyTo maynecsfsuedu
Lines 21
In article jvigneaucsulowelledu Joe Vigneau writes
If anything the BSA has taught me I dont know tolerance or something
Before I met this guy I thought all gays were faries So the BSA HAS
taught me to be an antibigot
I could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout
back in the 1960s The issue wasnt gays but the principles were the
same Thanks for a well put testimonial Stan Krieger and his kind who
think this discussion doesnt belong here and his intolerance is the
only acceptable position in scouting should take notice The BSA has
been hijacked by the religious right but some of the core values have
survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts
havent given up Seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that
scouting is still worth fighting for
On a cautionary note you must realize that if your experience with this
camp leader was in the BSA you may be putting him at risk by publicizing
it Word could leak out to the BSA gestapo
Bill Mayne
preprocess doc From: wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu (Wyatt Miler)
Subject: Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Lines: 185
Posted to the Internet by wmiler@nyx.cs.du.edu
000062David42 041493003715
The Lunar Tele-operation Model One (LTM1)
=========================================
By David H. Mitchell
March 23, 1993
INTRODUCTION:
In order to increase public interest in space-based and lunar operations, a
real miniature lunar-like environment is being constructed on which to test
tele-operated models. These models are remotely-controlled by individuals
located world-wide using their personal computers, for EduTainment
purposes.
Not only does this provide a test-bed for simple tele-operation and
tele-presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of
information
on methods of operating in space, including, but not limited to, layout of
a
lunar colony, tele-operating machines for work and play, disseminating
educational information, providing contests and awards for creativity and
achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in
Twenty-First century remote learning methods.
Because of the nature of the LTM1 project, people of all ages, interests
and
skills can contribute scenery and murals, models and structures,
interfacing
and electronics, software and graphics. In operation LTM1 is an evolving
playground and laboratory that can be used by children, students and
professionals worldwide. Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at
a participating institution a user is able to tele-operate real models at
the
LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes. Because a real
facility
exists, ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the
construction
of the lunar model, its operation and new features to be added as suggested
by the users themselves.
This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups:
- tele-operations and virtual reality research
- radio control, model railroad and ham radio operation
- astronomy and space planetariums and science centers
- art and theater
- bbs and online network users
- software and game developers
- manufacturers and retailers of model rockets, cars and trains
- children
- the child in all of us
LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN:
A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout. The walls are used
for murals of distant moon mountains, star fields and a view of the earth.
The "floor" is the simulated lunar surface. A global call for contributions
is hereby made for material for the lunar surface, and for the design and
creation of scale models of lunar colony elements, scenery, and
machine-lets.
The LTM1 initial design has 3 tele-operated machinelets:
1. An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off, hover and land;
2. A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area; and
3. A moon-train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface.
Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on
it. A personal computer digitizes the image (including reducing picture
content and doing data-compression to allow for minimal images to be sent
to the operator for control purposes) and also return control signals.
The first machinelet to be set up will be the moon-train since model trains
with TV cameras built in are almost off-the-shelf items and control
electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal. The user will
receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their
data link to LTM1.
Next, an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a
servo-motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the
SSTO
to be controlled by the operator to take off, hover over the entire lunar
landscape and land.
Finally, some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped
bulldozerlets. The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators
worldwide
to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and
takeoff, traveling and doing work. The entire system is based on
commercially
available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the
interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced
ham radio operator and computer hardware/software developers.
By taking a graphically oriented communications program (Dmodem) and adding
a tele-operations screen and controls, the necessary user interface can be
provided in under 80 man hours.
PLAN OF ACTION:
The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by
providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network.
Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction
of the lunar model. Diaspar has, in stock, the electronic tanks that can be
modified and one CCD TV chip. Diaspar also agrees to provide "rail stock"
for the lunar train model. Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical
communications package and modify it for control of the machines-lets.
An initial "ground breaking" with miniature shovels will be performed for
a live photo-session and news conference on April 30, 1993. The initial
models will be put in place. A time-lapse record will be started for
historical purposes. It is not expected that this event will be completely
serious or solemn. The lunar colony will be declared open for additional
building, operations and experiments. A photographer will be present and
the photographs taken will be converted to .gif images for distribution
world-wide to major online networks and bbs's. A press release will be
issued
calling for contributions of ideas, time, talent, materials and scale
models
for the simulated lunar colony.
A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then
be
announced. Universities will be invited to participate, the goal being to
find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of
the lunar colony model. Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that
time
the results of the class work will be added to the model. Contributors will
then be able to tele-operate any contributed machine-lets once they return
to
their campus.
A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via
conventional means to the media. Any major new tele-operated equipment
addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media.
Having a large, real model space colony will be a very attractive photo
opportunity for the television community. Especially since the "action"
will
be controlled by people all over the world. Science fiction writers will be
invited to issue "challenges" to engineering and human factors students at
universities to build and operate the tele-operated equipment to perform
lunar tasks. Using counter-weight and pulley systems, 1/6 gravity may be
simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges.
The long term goal is creating world-wide interest, education,
experimentation
and remote operation of a lunar colony. LTM1 has the potential of being a
long
term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic
example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited
to space EduTainment. All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can
lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars!
CONCLUSION:
EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment. Anyone who has
ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a
globally available layout for recreation, education and experimentation
purposes. By creating a tele-operated model lunar colony we not only create
world-wide publicity, but also a method of trying new ideas that require
real
(not virtual) skills and open a new method for putting people's minds in
space.
MOONLIGHTERS:
"Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development."
The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work:
David42, Rob47, Dash, Hyson, Jzer0, Vril, Wyatt, The Dark One, Tiggertoo,
The Mad Hatter, Sir Robin, Jogden.
Come join the discussion any Friday night from 10:30 to midnight PST in
Diaspar Virtual Reality Network. Ideas welcome!
Internet telnet to: 192.215.11.1 or diaspar.com
(voice) 714-376-1776
(2400bd) 714-376-1200
(9600bd) 714-376-1234
Email inquiries to LTM1 project leader Jzer@Hydra.unm.edu
or directly to Jzer0 on Diaspar.
after prepro From wmilernyxcsduedu Wyatt Miler
Subject Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Announcement
Organization Nyx Public Access Unix U of Denver MathCS dept
Lines 185
Posted to the Internet by wmilernyxcsduedu
000062David42 041493003715
The Lunar Teleoperation Model One LTM1
By David H Mitchell
March 23 1993
INTRODUCTION
In order to increase public interest in spacebased and lunar operations a
real miniature lunarlike environment is being constructed on which to test
teleoperated models These models are remotelycontrolled by individuals
located worldwide using their personal computers for EduTainment
purposes
Not only does this provide a testbed for simple teleoperation and
telepresence activities but it also provides for the sharing of
information
on methods of operating in space including but not limited to layout of
a
lunar colony teleoperating machines for work and play disseminating
educational information providing contests and awards for creativity and
achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in
TwentyFirst century remote learning methods
Because of the nature of the LTM1 project people of all ages interests
and
skills can contribute scenery and murals models and structures
interfacing
and electronics software and graphics In operation LTM1 is an evolving
playground and laboratory that can be used by children students and
professionals worldwide Using a personal computer at home or a terminal at
a participating institution a user is able to teleoperate real models at
the
LTM1 base for experimental or recreational purposes Because a real
facility
exists ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the
construction
of the lunar model its operation and new features to be added as suggested
by the users themselves
This has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups
teleoperations and virtual reality research
radio control model railroad and ham radio operation
astronomy and space planetariums and science centers
art and theater
bbs and online network users
software and game developers
manufacturers and retailers of model rockets cars and trains
children
the child in all of us
LTM1 OVERALL DESIGN
A room 14 feet by 8 feet contains the base lunar layout The walls are used
for murals of distant moon mountains star fields and a view of the earth
The floor is the simulated lunar surface A global call for contributions
is hereby made for material for the lunar surface and for the design and
creation of scale models of lunar colony elements scenery and
machinelets
The LTM1 initial design has 3 teleoperated machinelets
1 An SSTO scale model which will be able to lift off hover and land
2 A bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area and
3 A moontrain which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface
Each machinelet has a small TV camera utilizing a CCD TV chip mounted on
it A personal computer digitizes the image including reducing picture
content and doing datacompression to allow for minimal images to be sent
to the operator for control purposes and also return control signals
The first machinelet to be set up will be the moontrain since model trains
with TV cameras built in are almost offtheshelf items and control
electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal The user will
receive an image once every 1 to 4 seconds depending on the speed of their
data link to LTM1
Next an SSTO scale model with a CCD TV chip will be suspended from a
servomotor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the
SSTO
to be controlled by the operator to take off hover over the entire lunar
landscape and land
Finally some tank models will be modified to be CCD TV chip equipped
bulldozerlets The entire initial LTM1 will allow remote operators
worldwide
to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and
takeoff traveling and doing work The entire system is based on
commercially
available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the
interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced
ham radio operator and computer hardwaresoftware developers
By taking a graphically oriented communications program Dmodem and adding
a teleoperations screen and controls the necessary user interface can be
provided in under 80 man hours
PLAN OF ACTION
The Diaspar Virtual Reality Network has agreed to sponsor this project by
providing a host computer network and Internet access to that network
Diaspar is providing the 14 foot by 8 foot facility for actual construction
of the lunar model Diaspar has in stock the electronic tanks that can be
modified and one CCD TV chip Diaspar also agrees to provide rail stock
for the lunar train model Diaspar will make available the Dmodem graphical
communications package and modify it for control of the machineslets
An initial ground breaking with miniature shovels will be performed for
a live photosession and news conference on April 30 1993 The initial
models will be put in place A timelapse record will be started for
historical purposes It is not expected that this event will be completely
serious or solemn The lunar colony will be declared open for additional
building operations and experiments A photographer will be present and
the photographs taken will be converted to gif images for distribution
worldwide to major online networks and bbss A press release will be
issued
calling for contributions of ideas time talent materials and scale
models
for the simulated lunar colony
A contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then
be
announced Universities will be invited to participate the goal being to
find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of
the lunar colony model Field trips to LTM1 can be arranged and at that
time
the results of the class work will be added to the model Contributors will
then be able to teleoperate any contributed machinelets once they return
to
their campus
A monthly LTM1 newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via
conventional means to the media Any major new teleoperated equipment
addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media
Having a large real model space colony will be a very attractive photo
opportunity for the television community Especially since the action
will
be controlled by people all over the world Science fiction writers will be
invited to issue challenges to engineering and human factors students at
universities to build and operate the teleoperated equipment to perform
lunar tasks Using counterweight and pulley systems 16 gravity may be
simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges
The long term goal is creating worldwide interest education
experimentation
and remote operation of a lunar colony LTM1 has the potential of being a
long
term global EduTainment method for space activities and may be the generic
example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited
to space EduTainment All of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can
lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars
CONCLUSION
EduTainment is the blending of education and entertainment Anyone who has
ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a
globally available layout for recreation education and experimentation
purposes By creating a teleoperated model lunar colony we not only create
worldwide publicity but also a method of trying new ideas that require
real
not virtual skills and open a new method for putting peoples minds in
space
MOONLIGHTERS
Illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development
The following people are already engaged in various parts of this work
David42 Rob47 Dash Hyson Jzer0 Vril Wyatt The Dark One Tiggertoo
The Mad Hatter Sir Robin Jogden
Come join the discussion any Friday night from 1030 to midnight PST in
Diaspar Virtual Reality Network Ideas welcome
Internet telnet to 192215111 or diasparcom
voice 7143761776
2400bd 7143761200
9600bd 7143761234
Email inquiries to LTM1 project leader JzerHydraunmedu
or directly to Jzer0 on Diaspar
preprocess doc From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Article-I.D.: zeus.1993Apr22.003719.101323
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 32
prb@access.digex.com (Pat) Pontificated:
>
>
>Some birds require constant management for survival. Pointing a sensor at
>the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out. Pointing a
>parabolic antenna at Sol, from venus orbit may trash the
>foci elements.
>
What I was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be
possible to put enough brains on board future deep-space probes
for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the
sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble.
I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says "If you never hear from Earth again,
here's what to do." This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data (limited, but
still some data).
>Even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some
>cosmic phenomena.
>
Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup, if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe, it might
not be such a big loss. Obviously you can't plan for
everything, but the most obvious things can be considered.
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| "I know you believe you understand what it is that you |
| think I said. But I am not sure that you realize that |
| what I said is not what I meant." |
after prepro From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
ArticleID zeus1993Apr22003719101323
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 32
prbaccessdigexcom Pat Pontificated
Some birds require constant management for survival Pointing a sensor at
the sun even when powered down may burn it out Pointing a
parabolic antenna at Sol from venus orbit may trash the
foci elements
What I was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be
possible to put enough brains on board future deepspace probes
for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the
sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble
I heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in
that essentially says If you never hear from Earth again
heres what to do This was a back up in the event a receiver
burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but
still some data
Even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena
Since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for
startup if some type of cosmic BEM took out the probe it might
not be such a big loss Obviously you cant plan for
everything but the most obvious things can be considered
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I know you believe you understand what it is that you
think I said But I am not sure that you realize that
what I said is not what I meant
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>I propose
>that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
>(and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
>linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. I cannot
>provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
>seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.
>
Damn right you can't provide any evidence for it.
Rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a
simple premise. If they were, psychology would be a hard science
with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics.
Your premise may well be right. It is much more likely, however,
that it reflects your socialization and religious background, as
well as your need to validate your religious beliefs. Were I to
pretend to have all the answers (and I don't), I would say that the
xenophobia, guilt, and intolerance brought about by adherence to
fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing
the members of our society.
Your mileage obviously varies.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 33
In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
I propose
that these two trends greater level of general depression in society
and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are
linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former I cannot
provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it
Damn right you cant provide any evidence for it
Rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a
simple premise If they were psychology would be a hard science
with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics
Your premise may well be right It is much more likely however
that it reflects your socialization and religious background as
well as your need to validate your religious beliefs Were I to
pretend to have all the answers and I dont I would say that the
xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about by adherence to
fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing
the members of our society
Your mileage obviously varies
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: dpw@sei.cmu.edu (David Wood)
Subject: Re: And Another THing:
In-Reply-To: mangoe@cs.umd.edu's message of 3 Apr 93 00:46:07 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 39
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Keith Ryan writes:
>>
>>You will ignore any criticism of your logic, or any possible incongruenties
>>in your stance? You will not answer any questions on the validity of any
>>opinion and/or facts you state?
>When I have to start saying "that's not what I said", and the response is
>"did so!", there's no reason to continue. If someone is not going to argue
>with MY version of MY position, then they cannot be argued with.
But of course YOUR version of YOUR position has been included in the
Charley Challenges, so your claim above is a flat-out lie. Further,
only last week you claimed that you "might not" answer the Challenges
because you were turned off by "included text". So which is it, do
you want your context included in my articles or not? Come to think
of it, this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next
Challenges post.
By the way, I've kept every bloody thing that you've written related
to this thread, and will be only too pleased to re-post any of it to
back my position. You seem to have forgotten that you leave an
electronic paper trail on the net.
>>This is the usual theist approach. No matter how many times a certain
>>argument has been disproven, shown to be non-applicable or non-sequitur;
>>they keep cropping up- time after time.
>Speaking of non-sequiturs, this has little to do with what I just said. And
>have some sauce for the goose: some of the "disproof" is fallacies repeated
>over and over (such as the "law of nature" argument someone posted recently).
Now, now, let's not change the subject. Wouldn't it be best to finish
up the thread in question before you begin new ones?
--Dave Wood
after prepro From dpwseicmuedu David Wood
Subject Re And Another THing
InReplyTo mangoecsumdedus message of 3 Apr 93 004607 GMT
Organization Software Engineering Institute
Lines 39
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Keith Ryan writes
You will ignore any criticism of your logic or any possible incongruenties
in your stance You will not answer any questions on the validity of any
opinion andor facts you state
When I have to start saying thats not what I said and the response is
did so theres no reason to continue If someone is not going to argue
with MY version of MY position then they cannot be argued with
But of course YOUR version of YOUR position has been included in the
Charley Challenges so your claim above is a flatout lie Further
only last week you claimed that you might not answer the Challenges
because you were turned off by included text So which is it do
you want your context included in my articles or not Come to think
of it this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next
Challenges post
By the way Ive kept every bloody thing that youve written related
to this thread and will be only too pleased to repost any of it to
back my position You seem to have forgotten that you leave an
electronic paper trail on the net
This is the usual theist approach No matter how many times a certain
argument has been disproven shown to be nonapplicable or nonsequitur
they keep cropping up time after time
Speaking of nonsequiturs this has little to do with what I just said And
have some sauce for the goose some of the disproof is fallacies repeated
over and over such as the law of nature argument someone posted recently
Now now lets not change the subject Wouldnt it be best to finish
up the thread in question before you begin new ones
Dave Wood
preprocess doc From: phoenix.Princeton.EDU!carlosn (Carlos G. Niederstrasser)
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: chroma.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 33
In article <1993Apr20.142747.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
writes:
> In article <C5sB3p.IB9@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss)
writes:
> > I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
> > black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
> > on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
> > "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
> > It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.
> >
> > Doug Loss
>
>
> Interesting is rigth.. I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
> astronaut in the credits.. I think it might help people connect the future
of
> space with the present.. And give them an idea that we must go into space..
>
A transporter operator!?!? That better be one important transport. Usually
it is a nameless ensign who does the job. For such a guest appearance I would
have expected a more visible/meaningful role.
---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Carlos G. Niederstrasser | Only two things are infinite, |
| Princeton Planetary Society | the universe and human |
| | stupidity, and I'm not sure |
| | about the former. - Einstein |
| carlosn@phoenix.princeton.edu |---------------------------------|
| space@phoenix.princeton.edu | Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From phoenixPrincetonEDUcarlosn Carlos G Niederstrasser
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost chromaprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 33
In article 1993Apr201427471auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
writes
In article lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss
writes
I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
Its hardly space science I know but its interesting
Doug Loss
Interesting is rigth I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits I think it might help people connect the future
of
space with the present And give them an idea that we must go into space
A transporter operator That better be one important transport Usually
it is a nameless ensign who does the job For such a guest appearance I would
have expected a more visiblemeaningful role
Carlos G Niederstrasser Only two things are infinite
Princeton Planetary Society the universe and human
stupidity and Im not sure
about the former Einstein
carlosnphoenixprincetonedu
spacephoenixprincetonedu Ad Astra per Ardua Nostra
preprocess doc From: tclark@tlcslip.uncecs.edu (Thomas B. Clark)
Subject: Re: "So help you God" in court?
Reply-To: tclark@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC School of Medicine
Lines: 11
I don't think there is really any question about which god the courts
mean. The request for solemnly swearing, so help you god,
is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand
and hold up your right hand. In the courts of NC, at least, it is always
an old and new testament.
Though it is hard to imagine, picking up the bible and swearing to (whatever)
god is sometimes the least of the religious influence. There is a court in
Greensboro, NC, where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom
stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session. I've thought about
sitting through it, but I'm not terribly anxious to spend 30 days in jail...
after prepro From tclarktlcslipuncecsedu Thomas B Clark
Subject Re So help you God in court
ReplyTo tclarkmeduncedu
Organization UNC School of Medicine
Lines 11
I dont think there is really any question about which god the courts
mean The request for solemnly swearing so help you god
is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand
and hold up your right hand In the courts of NC at least it is always
an old and new testament
Though it is hard to imagine picking up the bible and swearing to whatever
god is sometimes the least of the religious influence There is a court in
Greensboro NC where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom
stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session Ive thought about
sitting through it but Im not terribly anxious to spend 30 days in jail
preprocess doc From: willner@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA, USA
Lines: 19
In article <C5qvJC.B4B@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry
Spencer) writes:
> The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
> However, quite possibly it's
> no longer on display; NASM, like most museums, has much more stuff than it
> can display at once, and does rotate the displays occasionally.
The NASM photo archives are open to the public. All (or almost all)
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but I
don't know about films. At least it might be worth a try. I'm not
sure if appointments are necessary, but I think not.
Good luck, and let us know what you find.
--
Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Bitnet: willner@cfa
Cambridge, MA 02138 USA Internet: willner@cfa.harvard.edu
member, League for Programming Freedom; contact lpf@uunet.uu.net
after prepro From willnerheadcfaharvardedu Steve Willner
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory Cambridge MA USA
Lines 19
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry
Spencer writes
The National Air Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
However quite possibly its
no longer on display NASM like most museums has much more stuff than it
can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally
The NASM photo archives are open to the public All or almost all
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but I
dont know about films At least it might be worth a try Im not
sure if appointments are necessary but I think not
Good luck and let us know what you find
Steve Willner Phone 6174957123 Bitnet willnercfa
Cambridge MA 02138 USA Internet willnercfaharvardedu
member League for Programming Freedom contact lpfuunetuunet
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: How do they ignite the SSME?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 21
on Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 12:38:50 GMT, Paul Dietz <dietz@cs.rochester.edu>
writes:
/in essence, holding a match under the nozzle, is just *nuts*. One
/thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that
/the propellants ignite as soon as they mix, within milliseconds. To
/do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture
/which, when it finally does ignite, blows everything to hell.
Definitely! In one of the reports of an early test conducted by Rocketdyne at
their Santa Susanna Field Lab ("the Hill" above the San Fernando and Simi
Valleys), the result of a hung start was described as "structural failure" of
the combustion chamber. The inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below
, the CC had vaporized! This was described in a class I took as a "typical
engineering understatement" :-)
Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
"Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject How do they ignite the SSME
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 21
on Date Sat 3 Apr 1993 123850 GMT Paul Dietz
writes
in essence holding a match under the nozzle is just nuts One
thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that
the propellants ignite as soon as they mix within milliseconds To
do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture
which when it finally does ignite blows everything to hell
Definitely In one of the reports of an early test conducted by Rocketdyne at
their Santa Susanna Field Lab the Hill above the San Fernando and Simi
Valleys the result of a hung start was described as structural failure of
the combustion chamber The inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below
the CC had vaporized This was described in a class I took as a typical
engineering understatement
Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901
preprocess doc From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 37
In article <30121@ursa.bear.com>, halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
>In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>>
>>He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
>>One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
>>existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
>>Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
>>number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
>>is his status at the time the crime was committed.
>
I'll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one
_rejects_ god. Therefore, you choose to punish only those who
_talk_ about it.
>
>-jim halat
after prepro From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 37
In article 30121ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
is his status at the time the crime was committed
Ill also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one
_rejects_ god Therefore you choose to punish only those who
_talk_ about it
jim halat
preprocess doc From: MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@rockwell.com ("RWTMS2::MUNIZB")
Subject: Long Island (was Why use AC at 20kHz for SSF power)
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 21
on Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 23:19:46 GMT, Edmund Hack <arabia!hack> writes:
/In article <1pgdno$3t1@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
/>
/>I always thought GD's Fighter plants were in Long Island.
/>
/No, Northrup has a plant on Long Island.
I don't think Northrup ever had a plant on Long Island. The two main airframe
manufacturers there were (Fairchild)/Republic which closed its doors after the
T-46 cancellation, and Grumman (which is still hanging on last I time I called).
I think Sperry also started there. If you're ever in the area check out the
Cradle of Aviation Museum at Mitchell field (now mostly parking lots behind the
Nassau Coliseum and the community college). Good display of vehicles from Long
Island, including a LEM flight article.
Disclaimer: Opinions stated are solely my own (unless I change my mind).
Ben Muniz MUNIZB%RWTMS2.decnet@consrt.rockwell.com w(818)586-3578
Space Station Freedom:Rocketdyne/Rockwell:Structural Loads and Dynamics
"Man will not fly for fifty years": Wilbur to Orville Wright, 1901
after prepro From MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetrockwellcom RWTMS2MUNIZB
Subject Long Island was Why use AC at 20kHz for SSF power
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 21
on Date Fri 2 Apr 1993 231946 GMT Edmund Hack writes
In article 1pgdno3t1accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
I always thought GDs Fighter plants were in Long Island
No Northrup has a plant on Long Island
I dont think Northrup ever had a plant on Long Island The two main airframe
manufacturers there were FairchildRepublic which closed its doors after the
T46 cancellation and Grumman which is still hanging on last I time I called
I think Sperry also started there If youre ever in the area check out the
Cradle of Aviation Museum at Mitchell field now mostly parking lots behind the
Nassau Coliseum and the community college Good display of vehicles from Long
Island including a LEM flight article
Disclaimer Opinions stated are solely my own unless I change my mind
Ben Muniz MUNIZBRWTMS2decnetconsrtrockwellcom w8185863578
Space Station FreedomRocketdyneRockwellStructural Loads and Dynamics
Man will not fly for fifty years Wilbur to Orville Wright 1901
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 12
In article <1993Apr17.053333.15696@sfu.ca> Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
>... a high explosive Orion prototype flew (in the atmosphere) in San
>Diego back in 1957 or 1958... I feel sure
>that someone must have film of that experiment, and I'd really like to
>see it. Has anyone out there seen it?
The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 12
In article 1993Apr1705333315696sfuca Leigh Palmer writes
a high explosive Orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in San
Diego back in 1957 or 1958 I feel sure
that someone must have film of that experiment and Id really like to
see it Has anyone out there seen it
The National Air Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: next15csc.wam.umd.edu
Reply-To: west@next02.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Lines: 35
In article <kmr4.1433.734039535@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.
Ryan) writes:
> In article <1993Apr5.163050.13308@wam.umd.edu>
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> >In article <kmr4.1422.733983061@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M.
> >Ryan) writes:
> >> In article <1993Apr5.025924.11361@wam.umd.edu>
> >west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> >>
> >> >THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GOD(tm) *prove me wrong*
> >>
> >> I dispute it.
> >>
> >> Ergo: by counter-example: you are proven wrong.
> >
> > I dispute your counter-example
> >
> > Ergo: by counter-counter-example: you are wrong and
> > I am right so nanny-nanny-boo-boo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
>
> No. The premis stated that it was undisputed.
>
Fine... THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GOD(tm) (disputed or not, it is)
Dispute that. It won't matter. Prove me wrong.
Brian West
--
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE * -"To the Earth, we have been
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE * here but for the blink of an
OK, SO IT'S A SIG FILE * eye, if we were gone tomorrow,
posted by west@wam.umd.edu * we would not be missed."-
who doesn't care who knows it. * (Jurassic Park)
** DICLAIMER: I said this, I meant this, nobody made me do it.**
after prepro From westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost next15cscwamumdedu
ReplyTo westnext02wamumdedu
Organization Workstations at Maryland University of Maryland College Park
Lines 35
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M
Ryan writes
In article 1993Apr516305013308wamumdedu
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M
Ryan writes
In article 1993Apr502592411361wamumdedu
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
THE ILLIAD IS THE UNDISPUTED WORD OF GODtm prove me wrong
I dispute it
Ergo by counterexample you are proven wrong
I dispute your counterexample
Ergo by countercounterexample you are wrong and
I am right so nannynannybooboo TBBBBBBBTTTTTTHHHHH
No The premis stated that it was undisputed
Fine THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GODtm disputed or not it is
Dispute that It wont matter Prove me wrong
Brian West
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE To the Earth we have been
THIS IS NOT A SIG FILE here but for the blink of an
OK SO ITS A SIG FILE eye if we were gone tomorrow
posted by westwamumdedu we would not be missed
who doesnt care who knows it Jurassic Park
DICLAIMER I said this I meant this nobody made me do it
preprocess doc From: rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 52
In article <11812@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <1993Apr14.205414.3982@leland.Stanford.EDU> rush@leland.Stanford.EDU (Voelkerding) writes:
>>
>>If we worry about the one case in 20,000 (or more) where an innocent man is
>>convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty, and
>>hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually
>>execute real criminals, then the death penalty is not serving its original
>>purpose. It should either be changed or done away with.
>>
>
> I don't have numbers to back this up, so take the following
> accordingly.
>
> You use an off-the-cuff number of 1 in 20,000 innocent people
> sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital
> punishment. I'd be very, very surprised if the ratio were that
> low. There have been approximately a dozen known cases of the
> execution of the innocent in the US since the turn of the century.
> Have we in that same period sentenced 240,000 people to death?
> Accounting for those cases that we don't know the truth, it seems
> reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in
> fact been executed. That would raise the number of death
> sentences metered out since 1900 to half a million for your
> acceptance ratio to hold. I rather doubt that's the case.
>
>
> The point, of course, is what *is* an acceptable loss. 1 in
> 10,000? Seems we're probably not doing even that well. 1 in 100?
> 1 in 2? Or should we perhaps find a better solution?
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>
Any suggestions as to what a better solution might be? I realize the
off-hand nature of the numbers I used. And I can't answer as to what
an acceptable loss rate is. However, as I said in another post, I
despise the idea of supporting criminals for life. It's the economics
of the situation that concern me most. The money spent feeding, clothing,
housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are
unfit to live in society could go to a number of places, all of which
I, and probably others, would consider far more worthwhile and which
would enrish the lives of all Americans. Give people jobs, give the
homeless shelter. Any number of things.
Clyde
--
Little girls, like butterflies, don't need a reason!
- Robert Heinlein
after prepro From rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization DSG Stanford University CA 94305 USA
Lines 52
In article 11812viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article 1993Apr142054143982lelandStanfordEDU rushlelandStanfordEDU Voelkerding writes
If we worry about the one case in 20000 or more where an innocent man is
convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty and
hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually
execute real criminals then the death penalty is not serving its original
purpose It should either be changed or done away with
I dont have numbers to back this up so take the following
accordingly
You use an offthecuff number of 1 in 20000 innocent people
sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital
punishment Id be very very surprised if the ratio were that
low There have been approximately a dozen known cases of the
execution of the innocent in the US since the turn of the century
Have we in that same period sentenced 240000 people to death
Accounting for those cases that we dont know the truth it seems
reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in
fact been executed That would raise the number of death
sentences metered out since 1900 to half a million for your
acceptance ratio to hold I rather doubt thats the case
The point of course is what is an acceptable loss 1 in
10000 Seems were probably not doing even that well 1 in 100
1 in 2 Or should we perhaps find a better solution
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
Any suggestions as to what a better solution might be I realize the
offhand nature of the numbers I used And I cant answer as to what
an acceptable loss rate is However as I said in another post I
despise the idea of supporting criminals for life Its the economics
of the situation that concern me most The money spent feeding clothing
housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are
unfit to live in society could go to a number of places all of which
I and probably others would consider far more worthwhile and which
would enrish the lives of all Americans Give people jobs give the
homeless shelter Any number of things
Clyde
Little girls like butterflies dont need a reason
Robert Heinlein
preprocess doc cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!zazen
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
From: zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)
Organization: Brownian Motion Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 34
The One and Only (jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: In article <dl2021-310393180711@m249-66.bgsu.edu> dl2021@andy.bgsu.edu (Pixie) writes:
: [first post I've seen from the ol' Bug-Zoo (BGSU)]
: > There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
: >that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
: >what it is). Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
: >atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
: > I accept nothing on blind faith.
: Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns! Need I say more?
There is also the question of what is meant by "atheist". A familiar
example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows.
The two statements following ARE consistent:
(1) I do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(2) I do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks
The two statements following are NOT consistent:
(3) I do believe that you are wearing lilac socks
(4) I do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks
Statements (1) and (2) require no faith, they make no presumptions about
the nature of reality. Statements (3) and (4) require belief. Many
atheists (myself included) take the following position:
(5) I do not believe that there is a god.
(6) I do not believe that there is not a god.
That is , I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence
for god existing or not. Some folks call this agnosticism. It does not
suffer from "blind faith" at all. I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".
after prepro csutexasedugeraldoccutexaseduportalaustinibmcomawdprimeaustinibmcomzazen
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
From zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon
Organization Brownian Motion Inc
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 34
The One and Only jcopelannyxcsduedu wrote
In article dl2021andybgsuedu Pixie writes
[first post Ive seen from the ol BugZoo BGSU]
There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
what it is Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
I accept nothing on blind faith
Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns Need I say more
There is also the question of what is meant by atheist A familiar
example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows
The two statements following ARE consistent
1 I do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks
2 I do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks
The two statements following are NOT consistent
3 I do believe that you are wearing lilac socks
4 I do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks
Statements 1 and 2 require no faith they make no presumptions about
the nature of reality Statements 3 and 4 require belief Many
atheists myself included take the following position
5 I do not believe that there is a god
6 I do not believe that there is not a god
That is I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence
for god existing or not Some folks call this agnosticism It does not
suffer from blind faith at all I think of it as Dont worry be happy
preprocess doc From: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Subject: A WRENCH in the works?
Originator: jmcocker@c00068-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 19
Hi all,
I really thought that by now I would have seen something
about this, but I haven't, so here goes: Last night on
the evening news, the anchorperson said something to the
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case. There
was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was
found, of what type of wrench it was, but the anchorperson
did say something about a NASA official commenting that
there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the SSRB.
Has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be
better than mine heard anything about this? It seems rather
weird.
Mitch ---------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu
after prepro From jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Subject A WRENCH in the works
Originator jmcockerc00068100lezeosncsuedu
ReplyTo jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Organization North Carolina State University Project Eos
Lines 19
Hi all
I really thought that by now I would have seen something
about this but I havent so here goes Last night on
the evening news the anchorperson said something to the
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case There
was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was
found of what type of wrench it was but the anchorperson
did say something about a NASA official commenting that
there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the SSRB
Has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be
better than mine heard anything about this It seems rather
weird
Mitch jmcockereosncsuedu
preprocess doc From: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Organization: Sea Change Corporation, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 44
werdna@cco.caltech.edu (Andrew Tong) writes:
>mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
>
>>Question 2: This attitude god character seems awfully egotistical
>>and proud. But Christianity tells people to be humble. What's the deal?
>
>Well, God pretty much has a right to be "egotistical and proud." I
>mean, he created _you_, doesn't he have the right to be proud of such
>a job?
>
>Of course, people don't have much of a right to be proud. What have
>they accomplished that can match God's accomplishments, anyways? How
>do their abilities compare with those of God's. We're an "imbecile
>worm of the earth," to quote Pascal.
Grumblegrumble...
>If you were God, and you created a universe, wouldn't you be just a
>little irked if some self-organizing cell globules on a tiny planet
>started thinking they were as great and awesome as you?
unfortunately the logic falls apart quick: all-perfect > insulted or
threatened by the actions of a lesser creature > actually by offspring >
???????????????????
How/why shuold any all-powerful all-perfect feel either proud or offended?
Anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every
particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should
be able to understand the cause of every action of every 'cell globule' on
each tniy planet...
>Well, actually, now that I think of it, it seems kinda odd that God
>would care at all about the Earth. OK, so it was a bad example. But
>the amazing fact is that He does care, apparently, and that he was
>willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness.
"All-powerful, Owner Of Everything in the Universe Makes Great Sacrifices"
makes a great headline but it doesn't make any sense. What did he
sacrifice? Where did it go that he couldn't get it back? If he gave
something up, who'd he give it up to?
-chris
[you guys have fun, I'm agoin' to Key West!!]
after prepro From chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
ReplyTo chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Organization Sea Change Corporation Mississauga Ontario Canada
Lines 44
werdnaccocaltechedu Andrew Tong writes
mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough writes
Question 2 This attitude god character seems awfully egotistical
and proud But Christianity tells people to be humble Whats the deal
Well God pretty much has a right to be egotistical and proud I
mean he created _you_ doesnt he have the right to be proud of such
a job
Of course people dont have much of a right to be proud What have
they accomplished that can match Gods accomplishments anyways How
do their abilities compare with those of Gods Were an imbecile
worm of the earth to quote Pascal
Grumblegrumble
If you were God and you created a universe wouldnt you be just a
little irked if some selforganizing cell globules on a tiny planet
started thinking they were as great and awesome as you
unfortunately the logic falls apart quick allperfect insulted or
threatened by the actions of a lesser creature actually by offspring
Howwhy shuold any allpowerful allperfect feel either proud or offended
Anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every
particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should
be able to understand the cause of every action of every cell globule on
each tniy planet
Well actually now that I think of it it seems kinda odd that God
would care at all about the Earth OK so it was a bad example But
the amazing fact is that He does care apparently and that he was
willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness
Allpowerful Owner Of Everything in the Universe Makes Great Sacrifices
makes a great headline but it doesnt make any sense What did he
sacrifice Where did it go that he couldnt get it back If he gave
something up whod he give it up to
chris
[you guys have fun Im agoin to Key West]
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: NASA "Wraps"
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 133
In the April edition of "One Small Step for a Space Activist",
Allen Sherzer & Tim Kyger write:
"Another problem is what are called 'wraps' (or sometimes
the 'center tax'). When work for a large program like
Freedom or Shuttle is performed at a NASA center, the
center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts
to a slush fund. This money is used to fund work the
center manager wants to fund. This sum is estimated to
be over a third of the funds allocated. Think about
that: Of the $30 billion cost of Freedom, fully $10
billion won't be spent on anything having anything
to do with Space Stations! Now, maybe that $10 billion
was wisely spent (and maybe it wasn't), but the work done
with it should stand on its own merits, not distorting
the cost of other projects. Congress has no idea of the
existense of these wraps; Congress has never heard the
term 'center tax'. They look at the Station they are
getting and the price they are paying and note that
it doesn't add up. They wonder this blissfully unaware
that a third of the money is going for something else."
My dear friends, your mixing fact and fiction here. A couple
of weeks ago, when I first read this in your posting, I
talked with one of the cost experts here in Space Station
at Headquarters [if you wondering why I didn't post a
response immediately, I do have a real job I'm supposed
to be doing here at Headquarters, & digging up old 20 kHz
data & looking into Sherzer/Kyger claims rates pretty low
on the totem pole of priority. Also, I spent last weekend
in Kansas City, at the National Science Teachers
Association conference, extolling the virtues of SSF
to 15,000 science teachers.]
First off, yes, the concept of 'center tax', or 'wrap' does
exist. If I recall the numbers correctly, the total 'tax'
for the SSF program for this fiscal year is around $40 Million.
This was computed by adding up the WP-1, WP-2, and WP-4
center 'taxes'. With the SSF budget for this fiscal year at
$2.2 Billion, my calculater says the tax percentage is
04/2.2 = 1.8%
Over the life of the SSF program, using your figure of $30
billion for the cost of SSF, a tax at a 1.8% rate comes to
$540 million. This is alot less than $10 billion, but I
will concede it's still an appreciable amount of pocket
change.
I should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 1/3 could
be close to the actual rate. The tax is only charged on funds
that are spent at the center (kind of like McDonalds at some
states, where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat
the food at the restaurant, but you don't if you get it
take-out). For example, at WP-4, the vast bulk of the funds
we receive go to the Rocketdyne Contract, and are *NOT*
subject to the center tax (I don't have the numbers in
front of me, but I'd guess at least 95% of the WP-4 funds
go to Rocketdyne). So, you could be right about a tax
rate of 1/3, but it's only applied to funds spent at the
center, and not to the prime contracts.
This leads to the obvious question "What is the government
doing with SSF funds that don't go to the prime contractors?
(i.e. ok, WP-4 gets a slice of the $30 billion pie. A
big portion of this slice goes to Rocketdyne. What happens
to the balance of the funds, which aren't eaten
up by the center tax?)"
At WP-4, we call these funds we spend in-house supporting
development funds (as they are supporting the development
work done by Rocketdyne). We have used these funds to
setup our own testbed, to checkout the electrical
power system architecture. Our testbed has a real life
solar array field (left over from solar cell research
research a few years back), with lead-acid car batteries
(to simulate the Nickel-Hydrogen batteries on SSF), DC
switchgear, DC-DC converter units, and simulated
loads. Data from the testbed was used in a recent
change evaluation involving concerns about the stability
of the power system.
We have also used the supporting development money to
purchase Nickel Hydrogen batteries, which are on life
testing at both Lewis and the Crane Naval facility in
Indiana. As a side point, 6 of the battery cells on
test recently hit the four year life test milestone.
38 cells have completed 18,552 to 23,405 cycles (the
on-orbit batteries go through 5,840 cycles per year).
As a final example, my 'home' division at Lewis used
the supporting development funds to purchase personal
computers and work stations, for performing system
analyses (like modeling of the performance of the
electrical power system, availability calculations
using a Monte-Carlo simulation, setting up a
database with information on weight of the power
system elements).
Finally, the money raised by the 'tax' does not all
go into a 'slush fund.' At Lewis, the director
does control a small discretionary fund. Each year,
any individual at Lewis can submit a proposal to
the director to get money from this fund to look
at pretty much anything within the Lewis Charter.
Most of the tax, however, goes to fund the 'general'
services at the Center, like the library, the
central computer services division, the Contractor
who removes the snow, etc. Thus, it is rather
difficult to determine what percentage of the
SSF budget doesn't go for SSF activities. To get
an accurate figure, you would have to take
the annual expenditure for the library (for example),
and then divide by the amount of the library funds
used to support SSF (which would be hard to
compute by itself - how would you figure out
what percentage of the bill for Aviation Week for
1 year is 'billable' to SSF, would you base it on
the person-hours SSF employees spend reading AV-week
versus the rest of the center personnel). You would
then have to compare this estimate of the SSF
portion of the library expense with the portion of
the tax that goes to support the library. Who knows,
maybe SSF overpays on the tax to run the library, but
we underpay for snow removal? Talk about
a burecratic nightmare!
My last point is that I can't believe your claim that
Congress has never heard of the term 'center tax.'
Unfortunately, all of the NASA testimony before
Congress isn't on a computer, so I can't do a simple
word search someplace to prove you wrong. But surely,
in some GAO audit somewhere, these NASA cost methods
were documented for Congress?
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject NASA Wraps
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 133
In the April edition of One Small Step for a Space Activist
Allen Sherzer Tim Kyger write
Another problem is what are called wraps or sometimes
the center tax When work for a large program like
Freedom or Shuttle is performed at a NASA center the
center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts
to a slush fund This money is used to fund work the
center manager wants to fund This sum is estimated to
be over a third of the funds allocated Think about
that Of the 30 billion cost of Freedom fully 10
billion wont be spent on anything having anything
to do with Space Stations Now maybe that 10 billion
was wisely spent and maybe it wasnt but the work done
with it should stand on its own merits not distorting
the cost of other projects Congress has no idea of the
existense of these wraps Congress has never heard the
term center tax They look at the Station they are
getting and the price they are paying and note that
it doesnt add up They wonder this blissfully unaware
that a third of the money is going for something else
My dear friends your mixing fact and fiction here A couple
of weeks ago when I first read this in your posting I
talked with one of the cost experts here in Space Station
at Headquarters [if you wondering why I didnt post a
response immediately I do have a real job Im supposed
to be doing here at Headquarters digging up old 20 kHz
data looking into SherzerKyger claims rates pretty low
on the totem pole of priority Also I spent last weekend
in Kansas City at the National Science Teachers
Association conference extolling the virtues of SSF
to 15000 science teachers]
First off yes the concept of center tax or wrap does
exist If I recall the numbers correctly the total tax
for the SSF program for this fiscal year is around 40 Million
This was computed by adding up the WP1 WP2 and WP4
center taxes With the SSF budget for this fiscal year at
22 Billion my calculater says the tax percentage is
0422 18
Over the life of the SSF program using your figure of 30
billion for the cost of SSF a tax at a 18 rate comes to
540 million This is alot less than 10 billion but I
will concede its still an appreciable amount of pocket
change
I should note that your estimate of the tax rate at 13 could
be close to the actual rate The tax is only charged on funds
that are spent at the center kind of like McDonalds at some
states where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat
the food at the restaurant but you dont if you get it
takeout For example at WP4 the vast bulk of the funds
we receive go to the Rocketdyne Contract and are NOT
subject to the center tax I dont have the numbers in
front of me but Id guess at least 95 of the WP4 funds
go to Rocketdyne So you could be right about a tax
rate of 13 but its only applied to funds spent at the
center and not to the prime contracts
This leads to the obvious question What is the government
doing with SSF funds that dont go to the prime contractors
ie ok WP4 gets a slice of the 30 billion pie A
big portion of this slice goes to Rocketdyne What happens
to the balance of the funds which arent eaten
up by the center tax
At WP4 we call these funds we spend inhouse supporting
development funds as they are supporting the development
work done by Rocketdyne We have used these funds to
setup our own testbed to checkout the electrical
power system architecture Our testbed has a real life
solar array field left over from solar cell research
research a few years back with leadacid car batteries
to simulate the NickelHydrogen batteries on SSF DC
switchgear DCDC converter units and simulated
loads Data from the testbed was used in a recent
change evaluation involving concerns about the stability
of the power system
We have also used the supporting development money to
purchase Nickel Hydrogen batteries which are on life
testing at both Lewis and the Crane Naval facility in
Indiana As a side point 6 of the battery cells on
test recently hit the four year life test milestone
38 cells have completed 18552 to 23405 cycles the
onorbit batteries go through 5840 cycles per year
As a final example my home division at Lewis used
the supporting development funds to purchase personal
computers and work stations for performing system
analyses like modeling of the performance of the
electrical power system availability calculations
using a MonteCarlo simulation setting up a
database with information on weight of the power
system elements
Finally the money raised by the tax does not all
go into a slush fund At Lewis the director
does control a small discretionary fund Each year
any individual at Lewis can submit a proposal to
the director to get money from this fund to look
at pretty much anything within the Lewis Charter
Most of the tax however goes to fund the general
services at the Center like the library the
central computer services division the Contractor
who removes the snow etc Thus it is rather
difficult to determine what percentage of the
SSF budget doesnt go for SSF activities To get
an accurate figure you would have to take
the annual expenditure for the library for example
and then divide by the amount of the library funds
used to support SSF which would be hard to
compute by itself how would you figure out
what percentage of the bill for Aviation Week for
1 year is billable to SSF would you base it on
the personhours SSF employees spend reading AVweek
versus the rest of the center personnel You would
then have to compare this estimate of the SSF
portion of the library expense with the portion of
the tax that goes to support the library Who knows
maybe SSF overpays on the tax to run the library but
we underpay for snow removal Talk about
a burecratic nightmare
My last point is that I cant believe your claim that
Congress has never heard of the term center tax
Unfortunately all of the NASA testimony before
Congress isnt on a computer so I cant do a simple
word search someplace to prove you wrong But surely
in some GAO audit somewhere these NASA cost methods
were documented for Congress
preprocess doc From: palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer)
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 53
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
> What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away?
>Given the enormous power, i was just wondering, what if they are
>quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by?
>Why would they have to be at galactic ranges?
Gamma Ray Bursts (GRBs) are seen coming equally from all directions.
However, given the number of bright ones, there are too few faint
ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far
as we can see--it is as if they are all contained within
a finite sphere (or a sphere with fuzzy edges) with us at the
center. (These measurements are statistical, and you can
always hide a sufficiently small number of a different
type of GRB with a different origin in the data. I am assuming
that there is only one population of GRBs).
The data indicates that we are less than 10% of the radius of the center
of the distribution. The only things the Earth is at the exact center
of are the Solar system (at the scale of the Oort cloud of comets
way beyond Pluto) and the Universe. Cosmological theories, placing
GRBs throughout the Universe, require supernova-type energies to
be released over a timescale of milliseconds. Oort cloud models
tend to be silly, even by the standards of astrophysics.
If GRBs were Galactic (i.e. distributed through the Milky Way Galaxy)
you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of
the Galaxy (for a 'disk' population), or towards the Galactic center
(for a spherical 'halo' population). We don't see this, so if they
are Galactic, they must be in a halo at least 250,000 light years in
radius, and we would probably start to see GRBs from the Andromeda
Galaxy (assuming that it has a similar halo.) For comparison, the
Earth is 25,000 light-years from the center of the Galaxy.
>my own pet theory is that it's Flying saucers entering
>hyperspace :-)
The aren't concentrated in the known spacelanes, and we don't
see many coming from Zeta Reticuli and Tau Ceti.
>but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
>are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes, i just wondered
>if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in.
There are more than 130 GRB different models in the refereed literature.
Right now, the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium
on new models until new observational evidence comes in.
--
David M. Palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu
palmer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov
after prepro From palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 53
NNTPPostingHost alumnicaltechedu
prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
What evidence indicates that Gamma Ray bursters are very far away
Given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are
quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by
Why would they have to be at galactic ranges
Gamma Ray Bursts GRBs are seen coming equally from all directions
However given the number of bright ones there are too few faint
ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far
as we can seeit is as if they are all contained within
a finite sphere or a sphere with fuzzy edges with us at the
center These measurements are statistical and you can
always hide a sufficiently small number of a different
type of GRB with a different origin in the data I am assuming
that there is only one population of GRBs
The data indicates that we are less than 10 of the radius of the center
of the distribution The only things the Earth is at the exact center
of are the Solar system at the scale of the Oort cloud of comets
way beyond Pluto and the Universe Cosmological theories placing
GRBs throughout the Universe require supernovatype energies to
be released over a timescale of milliseconds Oort cloud models
tend to be silly even by the standards of astrophysics
If GRBs were Galactic ie distributed through the Milky Way Galaxy
you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of
the Galaxy for a disk population or towards the Galactic center
for a spherical halo population We dont see this so if they
are Galactic they must be in a halo at least 250000 light years in
radius and we would probably start to see GRBs from the Andromeda
Galaxy assuming that it has a similar halo For comparison the
Earth is 25000 lightyears from the center of the Galaxy
my own pet theory is that its Flying saucers entering
hyperspace
The arent concentrated in the known spacelanes and we dont
see many coming from Zeta Reticuli and Tau Ceti
but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they
are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered
if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in
There are more than 130 GRB different models in the refereed literature
Right now the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium
on new models until new observational evidence comes in
David M Palmer palmeralumnicaltechedu
palmertgrsgsfcnasagov
preprocess doc From: will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Ryukoku Univ., Seta, Japan
Lines: 4
Thanks for the Update.
Will...
after prepro From willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Ryukoku Univ Seta Japan
Lines 4
Thanks for the Update
Will
preprocess doc howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!tubsibr!dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de!I3150101
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 35
In article <66015@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
(Deletion)
>I cannot see any evidence for the V. B. which the cynics in this group would
>ever accept. As for the second, it is the foundation of the religion.
>Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus (back in the 40 day period)
>is a believer, and therefore is discounted by those in this group; since
>these are all ancients anyway, one again to choose to dismiss the whole
>thing. The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else--
>even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it *means*, so
>again I don't see how evidence is possible.
>
No cookies, Charlie. The claims that Jesus have been seen are discredited
as extraordinary claims that don't match their evidence. In this case, it
is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was Jesus who has been
seen. Further, there are zillions of other spook stories, and one would
hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of
a resurrection.
There have been more elaborate arguments made, but it looks as if they have
not passed your post filtering.
>I thus interpret the "extraordinary claims" claim as a statement that the
>speaker will not accept *any* evidence on the matter.
It is no evidence in the strict meaning. If there was actual evidence it would
probably be part of it, but the says nothing about the claims.
Charlie, I have seen Invisible Pink Unicorns!
By your standards we have evidence for IPUs now.
Benedikt
after prepro howlandrestonansneteuropaenggtefsdcomuunetmcsunGermanyEUnetnewsdfndetubsibrdbstu1rztubsdeI3150101
Subject Re Gospel Dating
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 35
In article 66015mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Deletion
I cannot see any evidence for the V B which the cynics in this group would
ever accept As for the second it is the foundation of the religion
Anyone who claims to have seen the risen Jesus back in the 40 day period
is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since
these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole
thing The third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else
even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so
again I dont see how evidence is possible
No cookies Charlie The claims that Jesus have been seen are discredited
as extraordinary claims that dont match their evidence In this case it
is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was Jesus who has been
seen Further there are zillions of other spook stories and one would
hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of
a resurrection
There have been more elaborate arguments made but it looks as if they have
not passed your post filtering
I thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the
speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter
It is no evidence in the strict meaning If there was actual evidence it would
probably be part of it but the says nothing about the claims
Charlie I have seen Invisible Pink Unicorns
By your standards we have evidence for IPUs now
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask)
Organization: Me, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 78
snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>In article <1993Apr7.163445.1203@wam.umd.edu> west@next02.wam.umd.edu writes:
>>> >> And belief causes far more horrors.
>>> >> Crusades,
>>> >> the emasculation and internment of Native Americans,
>>> >> the killing of various tribes in South America.
>>> >-the Inquisition
>>> >-the Counter-reformation and the wars that followed
>>> >-the Salem witch trials
>>> >-the European witch hunts
>>> >-the holy wars of the middle east
>>> >-the colonization/destruction of Africa
>>> >-the wars between Christianity and Islam (post crusade)
>>> >-the genocide (biblical) of the Canaanites and Philistines
>>> >-Aryian invasion of India
>>> >-the attempted genocide of Jews by Nazi Germany
>>> >-the current missionary assaults on tribes in Africa
>>>
>>> I think all the horrors you mentioned are due to *lack* of people
>>> following religion.
.d.
>By lack of people following religion I also include fanatics- people
>that don't know what they are following.
.d.
>So how do you know that you were right?
>Why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors.
>It really covers yourself- something false to save yourself.
>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder
>
I just thought of another one, in the Bible, so it's definately not because
of *lack* of religion. The Book of Esther (which I read the other day for
other reasons) describes the origin of Pur'im, a Jewish celbration of joy
and peace. The long and short of the story is that 75,000 people were
killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions
lying about (you couldn't swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice,
peaceful solution.) 'Course Joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to
mind...
I agree with Bobby this far: religion as it is used to kill large numbers
of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally
intended for.
That doesn't reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion, it is
just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in
the Universe. The very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in
religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war. Many
people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own
stomache-contentsthan in any absolute truth, and have therefore been driven to
kill by their leaders.
The point is that there are many things involved in religion that often
lead to war. Whether these things are a part of religion, an unpleasant
side effect or (as Bobby would have it) the result of people switching
between Religion and Atheism spontaneously, the results are the same.
@Religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest
parts of Man's history.@
Atheists, on the other hand (preen,preen) are typically not an ideological
social caste, nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs.
The overuse of Nazism and Stalinism just show how true this is: Two groups
with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to
further their means. Anyone who cannot see the obvious - namely that these
were groups founded for reasons *entirely* their own, who used religious
persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more
powerfull - is trying too hard. Basically, Bobby uses these examples
because there are so few wars that were *not* *specifically* fought over
religion that he does not have many choices.
Well, I'm off to Key West where the only flames are heating the bottom of
little silver butter-dishes.
-ciao
-chris blask
after prepro From chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Subject Re islamic authority over women
ReplyTo chrisbseachgcom Chris Blask
Organization Me Mississauga Ontario Canada
Lines 78
snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
In article 1993Apr71634451203wamumdedu westnext02wamumdedu writes
And belief causes far more horrors
Crusades
the emasculation and internment of Native Americans
the killing of various tribes in South America
the Inquisition
the Counterreformation and the wars that followed
the Salem witch trials
the European witch hunts
the holy wars of the middle east
the colonizationdestruction of Africa
the wars between Christianity and Islam post crusade
the genocide biblical of the Canaanites and Philistines
Aryian invasion of India
the attempted genocide of Jews by Nazi Germany
the current missionary assaults on tribes in Africa
I think all the horrors you mentioned are due to lack of people
following religion
d
By lack of people following religion I also include fanatics people
that dont know what they are following
d
So how do you know that you were right
Why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors
It really covers yourself something false to save yourself
Peace
Bobby Mozumder
I just thought of another one in the Bible so its definately not because
of lack of religion The Book of Esther which I read the other day for
other reasons describes the origin of Purim a Jewish celbration of joy
and peace The long and short of the story is that 75000 people were
killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions
lying about you couldnt swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice
peaceful solution Course Joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to
mind
I agree with Bobby this far religion as it is used to kill large numbers
of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally
intended for
That doesnt reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion it is
just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in
the Universe The very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in
religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war Many
people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own
stomachecontentsthan in any absolute truth and have therefore been driven to
kill by their leaders
The point is that there are many things involved in religion that often
lead to war Whether these things are a part of religion an unpleasant
side effect or as Bobby would have it the result of people switching
between Religion and Atheism spontaneously the results are the same
Religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest
parts of Mans history
Atheists on the other hand preenpreen are typically not an ideological
social caste nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs
The overuse of Nazism and Stalinism just show how true this is Two groups
with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to
further their means Anyone who cannot see the obvious namely that these
were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious
persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more
powerfull is trying too hard Basically Bobby uses these examples
because there are so few wars that were not specifically fought over
religion that he does not have many choices
Well Im off to Key West where the only flames are heating the bottom of
little silver butterdishes
ciao
chris blask
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: Andrew Newell <TAN102@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Christian Morality is
<C5prCA.590@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Lines: 32
In article <C5prCA.590@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
says:
>
>In <11836@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>
>>In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
>Cobb) writes:
>
>> If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake. That
>> he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
>> undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.
>
>What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
>choices up to you?
Leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason
to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting
killed for us? And little new in the past few thousand
years, leaving us with only the texts passed down through
centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording.
...most of this passing down and interpretation of course
coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing
the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth.
What about maybe talking to us directly, eh?
He's a big god, right? He ought to be able to make time
for the creations he loves so much...at least enough to
give us each a few words of direct conversation.
What, he's too busy to get around to all of us?
Or maybe a few unquestionably-miraculous works here and
there?
...speaks volumes upon volumes to me that I've never
gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him.
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From Andrew Newell
Subject Re Christian Morality is
Lines 32
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
says
In 11836viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes
If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake That
he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes
What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
choices up to you
Leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason
to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting
killed for us And little new in the past few thousand
years leaving us with only the texts passed down through
centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording
most of this passing down and interpretation of course
coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing
the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth
What about maybe talking to us directly eh
Hes a big god right He ought to be able to make time
for the creations he loves so muchat least enough to
give us each a few words of direct conversation
What hes too busy to get around to all of us
Or maybe a few unquestionablymiraculous works here and
there
speaks volumes upon volumes to me that Ive never
gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him
preprocess doc From: ralph.buttigieg@f635.n713.z3.fido.zeta.org.au (Ralph Buttigieg)
Subject: Commercial point of view
Organization: Fidonet. Gate admin is fido@socs.uts.edu.au
Lines: 29
Original to: szabo@techbook.com
G'day szabo@techbook.com
29 Mar 93 07:28, szabo@techbook.com wrote to All:
sc> szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo), via Kralizec 3:713/602
sc> Here are some longer-term markets to consider:
Here are some more:
* Terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors.
* World enviroment and disaster monitering system. (the Japanese have
already developed a plan for this, called WEDOS) Although this may be more
of a "public good".
* Space tourism.
* Energy relay satellites
ta
Ralph
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: VULCAN'S WORLD - Sydney Australia (02) 635-6797 3:713/6
(3:713/635)
after prepro From ralphbuttigiegf635n713z3fidozetaorgau Ralph Buttigieg
Subject Commercial point of view
Organization Fidonet Gate admin is fidosocsutseduau
Lines 29
Original to szabotechbookcom
Gday szabotechbookcom
29 Mar 93 0728 szabotechbookcom wrote to All
sc szabotechbookcom Nick Szabo via Kralizec 3713602
sc Here are some longerterm markets to consider
Here are some more
Terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors
World enviroment and disaster monitering system the Japanese have
already developed a plan for this called WEDOS Although this may be more
of a public good
Space tourism
Energy relay satellites
ta
Ralph
GoldED 241
Origin VULCANS WORLD Sydney Australia 02 6356797 37136
3713635
preprocess doc From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Sr-71 in propoganda films?
Nntp-Posting-Host: ra
Organization: Texas Instruments
Distribution: sci
Lines: 28
In article <1993Apr5.220610.1532@sequent.com>, bigfoot@sequent.com (Gregory Smith) writes:
|> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|>
|> >In <1phv98$jbk@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>
|>
|> >>THe SR-71 stopped being a real secret by the mid 70's.
|> >>I had a friend in high school who had a poster with it's picture.
|>
|> >It was known well before that. I built a model of it sometime in the
|> >mid 60's, billed as YF-12A/SR-71. The model was based on YF-12A specs
|> >and had a big radar in the nose and 8 AAMs in closed bays on the
|> >underside of the fuselage. The description, even then, read "speeds
|> >in excess of Mach 3 at altitudes exceeding 80,000 feet."
|>
|> L.B.J. publically announced the existance of the Blackbird program
|> in 1964.
He's also the one who dubbed it the SR-71 - it was the RS-71 until LBJ
mippselled (sic) it.
FWIW,
Doug Page
*** The opinions are mine (maybe), and don't necessarily represent those ***
*** of my employer. ***
after prepro From dpageracscticom Doug Page
Subject Re Sr71 in propoganda films
NntpPostingHost ra
Organization Texas Instruments
Distribution sci
Lines 28
In article 1993Apr52206101532sequentcom bigfootsequentcom Gregory Smith writes
mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
In 1phv98jbkaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
THe SR71 stopped being a real secret by the mid 70s
I had a friend in high school who had a poster with its picture
It was known well before that I built a model of it sometime in the
mid 60s billed as YF12ASR71 The model was based on YF12A specs
and had a big radar in the nose and 8 AAMs in closed bays on the
underside of the fuselage The description even then read speeds
in excess of Mach 3 at altitudes exceeding 80000 feet
LBJ publically announced the existance of the Blackbird program
in 1964
Hes also the one who dubbed it the SR71 it was the RS71 until LBJ
mippselled sic it
FWIW
Doug Page
The opinions are mine maybe and dont necessarily represent those
of my employer
preprocess doc From: bon@lte.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de (Uwe Bonnes)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Organization: LTE, University of Erlangen, Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aladin.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr21.141824.23536@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>, jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) asked:
|>
|> Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
|> to compute sunrise and sunset times.
|>
|> I would appreciate any advice.
|>
|> Joe Wetstein
|> jpw@coe.drexel.edu
To compute this, and many other astronomical things, go and get (x)ephem written
by Elwood C. Downey. It is e.g. on export.lcs.mit.edu
Uwe Bonnes bon@lte.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
after prepro From bonlteetechnikunierlangende Uwe Bonnes
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
Organization LTE University of Erlangen Germany
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost aladinetechnikunierlangende
Lines 15
In article 1993Apr2114182423536cbisecedrexeledu jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein asked
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
I would appreciate any advice
Joe Wetstein
jpwcoedrexeledu
To compute this and many other astronomical things go and get xephem written
by Elwood C Downey It is eg on exportlcsmitedu
Uwe Bonnes bonlteetechnikunierlangende
preprocess doc From: bdunn@cco.caltech.edu (Brendan Dunn)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 8
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without
reading the FAQ! I was laughing for a good 5 minutes. Were there any
parts of the FAQ that weren't mentioned? I think there might have been one
or two...
Please don't tell me this wasn't a joke. I'm not ready to hear that yet...
Brendan
after prepro From bdunnccocaltechedu Brendan Dunn
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 8
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
Thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without
reading the FAQ I was laughing for a good 5 minutes Were there any
parts of the FAQ that werent mentioned I think there might have been one
or two
Please dont tell me this wasnt a joke Im not ready to hear that yet
Brendan
preprocess doc From: pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas)
Subject: Big amateur rockets
Organization: ICEM Systems, Inc.
Lines: 23
I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back. I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.
Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
and engines of sizes "F" to "M". They also said that some rockets will
reach 50,000 feet.
Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts, isn't this illegal? I can't imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.
And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one. I'm not that crazy.
-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
#define FULL_NAME "Paul Dokas"
#define EMAIL "pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com"
/* Just remember, you *WILL* die someday. */
after prepro From pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas
Subject Big amateur rockets
Organization ICEM Systems Inc
Lines 23
I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that
Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet
Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down
And no Im not going to even think of buying one Im not that crazy
Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas
include
define FULL_NAME Paul Dokas
define EMAIL pbdrunyoncimcdccom
Just remember you WILL die someday
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and anarchists
Lines: 117
mccullou@whipple.cs.wisc.edu writes:
>My turn
>I went back and reread your post. All you did is attack atheism, and
>say that agnosticism wasn't as funny as atheism. Nowhere does that
>imply that you are agnostic, or weak atheist. As most people who post
>such inflammatory remarks are theists, it was a reasonable assumption.
Sorry, you're right. I did not clearly state it.
>>Rule *2: Condescending to the population at large (i.e., theists) will not
>>win many people to your faith anytime soon. It only ruins your credibility.
>How am I being condescending to the population at large? I am stating
>something that happened to be true for a long time, I couldn't believe
>that people actually believed in this god idea. It was an alien concept
>to me. I am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it. I have
>no faith. Religion was a non issue when I had the attitude above because
>it never even occurred to me to believe. Atheist by default I guess you
>could say.
The most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational
attitude. Once one has accepted the _assumption_ that there is no god(s),
and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their
assumption(s) contradict your assumption, then I would say there's a
lack of consistency here.
Now I know you'll get on me about faith. If the _positive_ belief that God
does not exist were a closed, logical argument, why do so many rational
people have problems with that "logic"?
But you, probably like me, seem to be a soft atheist. Sorry for the flamage.
>The line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed
>to imply that. Sorry, been reading too much on the CLIPPER project lately,
>and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some.
;) What is the CLIPPER project BTW?
>>Rule #4: Don't mix apples with oranges. How can you say that the
>>extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin? Khan conquered >people
>>unsympathetic to his cause. That was atrocious. But Stalin killed >millions of
>>his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state!! >>How can
>>anyone be worse than that?
>Many rulers have done similar things in the past, only Stalin did it
>when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him. The
>evidence is that some of the early European rulers ruled with an iron
>fist much like Stalin's. You threw in numbers, and I am sick of hearing
>about Stalin as an example because the example doesn't apply. You
>managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack
>all forms of atheism.
It might have appeared to attack atheism in general, but its point was
that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons. People will hate who
they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it, be it cross or
hammer&sickle. The Stalin example _is_ important not only because it's
still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also
because people really did love him and his ideas, even after all that he
had wrought.
>The evidence I am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative
>evidence. Say I claim there are no pink crows. I have never seen
>a pink crow, but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist. But, this person
>here claims that there are pink crows, even though he admits he hasn't
>been able to capture one or get a photo, or find one with me etc.
>In a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows.
>That is what I am saying when I look at the evidence. I look at the
>suppossed evidence for a deity, show how it is flawed, and doesn't show
>what theists want it to show, and go on.
First, all the pink crows/unicorns/elves arguments in the world will not
sway most people, for they simply do not accept the analogy. Why?
One of the big reasons is that many, many people want something
beyond this life. You can pretend that they don't want this, but I for
one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes.
And there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a God.
Can love as a truth be proven, logically?
>>themselves, namely, a god or gods. So in principle it's hard to see how
>>theists are necessarily arrogant.
>Makes no sense to me. They seem arrogant to make such a claim to me.
>But my previous refutation still stands, and I believe there may be
>another one on the net.
John the Baptist boasted of Jesus to many people. I find it hard to see
how that behavior is arrogant at all. Many Christians I know also boast
in this way, but I still do not necessarily see it as arrogance. Of course,
I do know arrogant Christians, doctors, and teachers as well. Technically,
you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant,
Jesus, for instance.
>Are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism? If you are
>talking about weak atheism which I believe in, then I refuse such a claim.
>Atheism is a lack of belief. I used good ol' Occam's Razor to make the
>final rejection of a deity, in that, as I see things, even if I
>present the hypothesises in an equal fasion, I find the theist argument
>not plausible.
I speak against strong atheism. I also often find that the evidence
supporting a faith is very subjective, just as, say, the evidence supporting
love as truth is subjective.
>I believe I answered that. I apologize for the (as you stated) incorrect
>assumption on your theism, but I saw nothing to indicate that you
>were an agnostic, only that you were just another newbie Christian
>on the net trying to get some cheap shots in.
No apology necessary. :)
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and anarchists
Lines 117
mccullouwhipplecswiscedu writes
My turn
I went back and reread your post All you did is attack atheism and
say that agnosticism wasnt as funny as atheism Nowhere does that
imply that you are agnostic or weak atheist As most people who post
such inflammatory remarks are theists it was a reasonable assumption
Sorry youre right I did not clearly state it
Rule 2 Condescending to the population at large ie theists will not
win many people to your faith anytime soon It only ruins your credibility
How am I being condescending to the population at large I am stating
something that happened to be true for a long time I couldnt believe
that people actually believed in this god idea It was an alien concept
to me I am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it I have
no faith Religion was a non issue when I had the attitude above because
it never even occurred to me to believe Atheist by default I guess you
could say
The most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational
attitude Once one has accepted the _assumption_ that there is no gods
and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their
assumptions contradict your assumption then I would say theres a
lack of consistency here
Now I know youll get on me about faith If the _positive_ belief that God
does not exist were a closed logical argument why do so many rational
people have problems with that logic
But you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist Sorry for the flamage
The line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed
to imply that Sorry been reading too much on the CLIPPER project lately
and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some
What is the CLIPPER project BTW
Rule 4 Dont mix apples with oranges How can you say that the
extermination by the Mongols was worse than Stalin Khan conquered people
unsympathetic to his cause That was atrocious But Stalin killed millions of
his own people who loved and worshipped _him_ and his atheist state How can
anyone be worse than that
Many rulers have done similar things in the past only Stalin did it
when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him The
evidence is that some of the early European rulers ruled with an iron
fist much like Stalins You threw in numbers and I am sick of hearing
about Stalin as an example because the example doesnt apply You
managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack
all forms of atheism
It might have appeared to attack atheism in general but its point was
that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons People will hate who
they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it be it cross or
hammersickle The Stalin example _is_ important not only because its
still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also
because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that he
had wrought
The evidence I am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative
evidence Say I claim there are no pink crows I have never seen
a pink crow but that doesnt mean it couldnt exist But this person
here claims that there are pink crows even though he admits he hasnt
been able to capture one or get a photo or find one with me etc
In a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows
That is what I am saying when I look at the evidence I look at the
suppossed evidence for a deity show how it is flawed and doesnt show
what theists want it to show and go on
First all the pink crowsunicornselves arguments in the world will not
sway most people for they simply do not accept the analogy Why
One of the big reasons is that many many people want something
beyond this life You can pretend that they dont want this but I for
one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes
And there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a God
Can love as a truth be proven logically
themselves namely a god or gods So in principle its hard to see how
theists are necessarily arrogant
Makes no sense to me They seem arrogant to make such a claim to me
But my previous refutation still stands and I believe there may be
another one on the net
John the Baptist boasted of Jesus to many people I find it hard to see
how that behavior is arrogant at all Many Christians I know also boast
in this way but I still do not necessarily see it as arrogance Of course
I do know arrogant Christians doctors and teachers as well Technically
you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant
Jesus for instance
Are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism If you are
talking about weak atheism which I believe in then I refuse such a claim
Atheism is a lack of belief I used good ol Occams Razor to make the
final rejection of a deity in that as I see things even if I
present the hypothesises in an equal fasion I find the theist argument
not plausible
I speak against strong atheism I also often find that the evidence
supporting a faith is very subjective just as say the evidence supporting
love as truth is subjective
I believe I answered that I apologize for the as you stated incorrect
assumption on your theism but I saw nothing to indicate that you
were an agnostic only that you were just another newbie Christian
on the net trying to get some cheap shots in
No apology necessary
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1qkq9t$66n@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable. I base
>this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
>of their freedom (so that their every act was contrary to their volition),
>almost all would want to complain. Therefore I take it that to assert or
>believe that "Freedom is not very valuable", when almost everyone can see
>that it is, is every bit as absurd as to assert "it is not raining" on
>a rainy day. I take this to be a candidate for an objective value, and it
>it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
>such as this exist.
You have only shown that a vast majority ( if not all ) would
agree to this. However, there is nothing against a subjective majority.
In any event, I must challenge your assertion. I know many
societies- heck, many US citizens- willing to trade freedom for "security".
---
" Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "
John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1qkq9t66nhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable I base
this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly
of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition
almost all would want to complain Therefore I take it that to assert or
believe that Freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see
that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on
a rainy day I take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it
it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values
such as this exist
You have only shown that a vast majority if not all would
agree to this However there is nothing against a subjective majority
In any event I must challenge your assertion I know many
societies heck many US citizens willing to trade freedom for security
Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken
John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
preprocess doc From: dprjdg@inetg1.ARCO.COM (John Grasham)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-lo
Organization: ARCO Oil and Gas Company
Lines: 44
keithley@apple.com (Craig Keithley) writes:
>
> All in all, I'm not certain that the single goal/prize of staying on the
> moon for a year is wise and/or useful. How about: A prize for the
> first
> non-government sponsered unmanned moon landing, then another for a
> manned
> moon landing, then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
> lunar soil, another for a reusable earth/moon shuttle, and so forth.
> Find
> some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure... Having a single
> goal
> might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person
> appeared
> to win. And for those that didn't give up, I find something a little
> scary
> about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters. I'd
> like to see as much a reward for co-operation as for competition.
>
> Lastly, about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was
> an
> English space magazine that had an on-going discussion about moonbases
> on
> the cheap. I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
> body produced, how much lunar material it'd need for protection from
> solar
> flares, etc. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of this magazine.
> Does this ring a bell to anyone?
>
> Craig Keithley |"I don't remember, I don't recall,
> Apple Computer, Inc. |I got no memory of anything at all"
> keithley@apple.com |Peter Gabriel, Third Album (1980)
>
I love the idea of progressive developmental prizes, but the assumption
has
been all along that only the U.S. Gummint could fund the prizes. It
wouldn't and couldn't do such a thing ... BUT ...
An eccentric billionaire COULD offer such a prize or series of prizes.
Anyone know H. Ross Perot or Bill Gates personally?
John G.
after prepro From dprjdginetg1ARCOCOM John Grasham
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlo
Organization ARCO Oil and Gas Company
Lines 44
keithleyapplecom Craig Keithley writes
All in all Im not certain that the single goalprize of staying on the
moon for a year is wise andor useful How about A prize for the
first
nongovernment sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a
manned
moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from
lunar soil another for a reusable earthmoon shuttle and so forth
Find
some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure Having a single
goal
might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person
appeared
to win And for those that didnt give up I find something a little
scary
about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters Id
like to see as much a reward for cooperation as for competition
Lastly about ten or fifteen years back I seem to recall that there was
an
English space magazine that had an ongoing discussion about moonbases
on
the cheap I recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human
body produced how much lunar material itd need for protection from
solar
flares etc Unfortunately I dont remember the name of this magazine
Does this ring a bell to anyone
Craig Keithley I dont remember I dont recall
Apple Computer Inc I got no memory of anything at all
keithleyapplecom Peter Gabriel Third Album 1980
I love the idea of progressive developmental prizes but the assumption
has
been all along that only the US Gummint could fund the prizes It
wouldnt and couldnt do such a thing BUT
An eccentric billionaire COULD offer such a prize or series of prizes
Anyone know H Ross Perot or Bill Gates personally
John G
preprocess doc From: kempmp@phoenix.oulu.fi (Petri Pihko)
Subject: Re: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 59
acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu wrote:
: I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of
: the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group
: of the population.
I've been thinking about this every now and then since I cut my ties
with Christianity. It is surprising to note that a large majority of
people, at least in Finland, seem to be apatheists - even though
90 % of the population are members of the Lutheran Church of Finland,
religious people are actually a minority.
Could it be possible that many people believe in god "just in case"?
It seems people do not want to seek the truth; they fall prey to Pascal's
Wager or other poor arguments. A small minority of those who do believe
reads the Bible regularly. The majority doesn't care - it believes,
but doesn't know what or how.
People don't usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle,
they only want to keep the virtual gate open. A Christian would say
that they are not "born in the Spirit", but this does not disturb them.
Religion is not something to think about.
I'm afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible
dream. Religions have a strong appeal to people, nevertheless -
a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to.
Coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our
morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop, too many
people take the poison with a smile. Or just pretend to swallow
(and unconsciously hope god wouldn't notice ;-) )
: Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
: higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking. The
: typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
: same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
: other, qualitatively. But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
: somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
: than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
: expresses its own selfishness.
If logic and reason are valued, then I would claim that atheistic thinking
is of higher value than the theistic exposition. Theists make unnecessary
assumptions they believe in - I've yet to see good reasons to believe
in gods, or to take a leap of faith at all. A revelation would do.
However, why do we value logic and reasoning? This questions bears
some resemblance to a long-disputed problem in science: why mathematics
works? Strong deep structuralists, like Atkins, have proposed that
perhaps, after all, everything _is_ mathematics.
Is usefulness any criterion?
Petri
--
___. .'*''.* Petri Pihko kem-pmp@ Mathematics is the Truth.
!___.'* '.'*' ' . Pihatie 15 C finou.oulu.fi Physics is the Rule of
' *' .* '* SF-90650 OULU kempmp@ the Game.
*' * .* FINLAND phoenix.oulu.fi -> Chemistry is The Game.
after prepro From kempmpphoenixoulufi Petri Pihko
Subject Re Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization University of Oulu Finland
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 59
acoopermacccmacalstredu wrote
I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of
the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group
of the population
Ive been thinking about this every now and then since I cut my ties
with Christianity It is surprising to note that a large majority of
people at least in Finland seem to be apatheists even though
90 of the population are members of the Lutheran Church of Finland
religious people are actually a minority
Could it be possible that many people believe in god just in case
It seems people do not want to seek the truth they fall prey to Pascals
Wager or other poor arguments A small minority of those who do believe
reads the Bible regularly The majority doesnt care it believes
but doesnt know what or how
People dont usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle
they only want to keep the virtual gate open A Christian would say
that they are not born in the Spirit but this does not disturb them
Religion is not something to think about
Im afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible
dream Religions have a strong appeal to people nevertheless
a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to
Coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our
morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop too many
people take the poison with a smile Or just pretend to swallow
and unconsciously hope god wouldnt notice
Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
other qualitatively But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
expresses its own selfishness
If logic and reason are valued then I would claim that atheistic thinking
is of higher value than the theistic exposition Theists make unnecessary
assumptions they believe in Ive yet to see good reasons to believe
in gods or to take a leap of faith at all A revelation would do
However why do we value logic and reasoning This questions bears
some resemblance to a longdisputed problem in science why mathematics
works Strong deep structuralists like Atkins have proposed that
perhaps after all everything _is_ mathematics
Is usefulness any criterion
Petri
___ Petri Pihko kempmp Mathematics is the Truth
___ Pihatie 15 C finououlufi Physics is the Rule of
SF90650 OULU kempmp the Game
FINLAND phoenixoulufi Chemistry is The Game
preprocess doc From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: Rationality (was: Islamic marriage)?
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 26
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi
In <1993Mar31.013034.27070@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>My case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start
>believing in Islam. And that horrors to mankind are all caused by the
>lack of belief- Atheism.
For the last time, Bobby. Lack of belief in YOUR god does NOT imply
atheism. Just because some moslems aren't moral does not mean they don't
believe in a god named Allah, although their Allah may not do the things
your Allah does. If a moslem says he/she believes that a god exists, he/she
is a theist (though maybe not a TRUE follower of islam).
>30,000 murder victims a year caused by atheism. Poverty. Massive hate crimes.
>Such low respect for the human body. Distrust among people. Everything
>wrong, all caused by atheism.
>Peace,
Jerk.
>Bobby Mozumder
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
after prepro From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage Rationality was Islamic marriage
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 26
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi
In 1993Mar3101303427070ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
My case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start
believing in Islam And that horrors to mankind are all caused by the
lack of belief Atheism
For the last time Bobby Lack of belief in YOUR god does NOT imply
atheism Just because some moslems arent moral does not mean they dont
believe in a god named Allah although their Allah may not do the things
your Allah does If a moslem says heshe believes that a god exists heshe
is a theist though maybe not a TRUE follower of islam
30000 murder victims a year caused by atheism Poverty Massive hate crimes
Such low respect for the human body Distrust among people Everything
wrong all caused by atheism
Peace
Jerk
Bobby Mozumder
Sami Aario Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Objective morality (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: sgi
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qlf7gINN8sn@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >In another part of this thread, you've been telling us that the
|> >"goal" of a natural morality is what animals do to survive.
|>
|> That's right. Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though. Perhaps
|> our goal is one of self-actualization.
Humans have "gone somewhat beyond" what, exactly? In one thread
you're telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive, and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can "definitely" say what is right and what is wrong. So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion? The long-
term survival of the human species, or what?
How does omniscient map into "definitely" being able to assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions?
|>
|> >But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
|> >term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
|> >other species, either terrestrial or alien.
|>
|> Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me. This
|> was not part of the original premise.
Well, your "original premises" have a habit of changing over time,
so perhaps you'd like to review it for us, and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign "right"
and "wrong" to actions, and telling us the result, is.
|>
|> >Does that make it moral to do so?
|>
|> Which type of morality are you talking about? In a natural sense, it
|> is not at all immoral to harm another species (as long as it doesn't
|> adversely affect your own, I guess).
I'm talking about the morality introduced by you, which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can "definitely" assign
"right" and "wrong" to actions.
You tell us what type of morality that is.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Objective morality was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In another part of this thread youve been telling us that the
goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive
Thats right Humans have gone somewhat beyond this though Perhaps
our goal is one of selfactualization
Humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly In one thread
youre telling us that natural morality is what animals do to
survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient
being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong So
what does this omniscient being use for a criterion The long
term survival of the human species or what
How does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign
right and wrong to actions
But suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long
term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some
other species either terrestrial or alien
Now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me This
was not part of the original premise
Well your original premises have a habit of changing over time
so perhaps youd like to review it for us and tell us what the
difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right
and wrong to actions and telling us the result is
Does that make it moral to do so
Which type of morality are you talking about In a natural sense it
is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesnt
adversely affect your own I guess
Im talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to
be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign
right and wrong to actions
You tell us what type of morality that is
jon
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: 30826
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr25.151108.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
I like option C of the new space station design..
It needs some work, but it is simple and elegant..
Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex...
Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it..
Might be an idea for a Moon/Mars base to..
Where is Captain Eugenia(sp) when you need it (reference to russian heavy
lifter, I think).
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject 30826
ArticleID aurora1993Apr251511081
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 14
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
I like option C of the new space station design
It needs some work but it is simple and elegant
Its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex
Basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for
it
Might be an idea for a MoonMars base to
Where is Captain Eugeniasp when you need it reference to russian heavy
lifter I think
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc From: davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu (Dave Choweller)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: California State University, San Bernardino
Lines: 45
Nntp-Posting-Host: silicon.csci.csusb.edu
In article <1qif1g$fp3@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>In article <1qialf$p2m@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>|In article <1qi921$egl@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
[stuff deleted...]
>||> To the newsgroup at large, how about this for a deal: recognise that what
>||> happened in former Communist Russia has as much bearing on the validity
>||> of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their
>||> theism. That's zip, nada, none. The fallacy is known as ad hominem, and
>||> it's an old one. It should be in the Holy FAQ, in the Book of Constructing
>||> a Logical Argument :-)
>|
>|Apart from not making a lot of sense, this is wrong. There
>|is no "atheist creed" that taught any communist what to do "in
>|the name of atheism". There clearly are theistic creeds and
>|instructions on how to act for theists. They all madly
>|conflict with one another, but that's another issue.
>
>Lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil.
That's like saying that, since mathematics includes no instructions on
how to act, it is evil. Atheism is not a moral system, so why should
it speak of instructions on how to act? *Atheism is simply lack of
belief in God*.
Plenty of theists
>think so. So one could argue the case for "atheism causes whatever
>I didn't like about the former USSR" with as much validity as "theism
>causes genocide" - that is to say, no validity at all.
I think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide
can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide.
This is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act,
and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide. However, since
the atheist set of instructions is the null set, how can you show that
atheism causes genocide?
--
David Choweller (davec@silicon.csci.csusb.edu)
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moment's notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject. --George Bernard Shaw.
--
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moment's notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject. --George Bernard Shaw.
after prepro From davecsiliconcscicsusbedu Dave Choweller
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization California State University San Bernardino
Lines 45
NntpPostingHost siliconcscicsusbedu
In article 1qif1gfp3horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1qialfp2mfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1qi921eglhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
[stuff deleted]
To the newsgroup at large how about this for a deal recognise that what
happened in former Communist Russia has as much bearing on the validity
of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their
theism Thats zip nada none The fallacy is known as ad hominem and
its an old one It should be in the Holy FAQ in the Book of Constructing
a Logical Argument
Apart from not making a lot of sense this is wrong There
is no atheist creed that taught any communist what to do in
the name of atheism There clearly are theistic creeds and
instructions on how to act for theists They all madly
conflict with one another but thats another issue
Lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil
Thats like saying that since mathematics includes no instructions on
how to act it is evil Atheism is not a moral system so why should
it speak of instructions on how to act Atheism is simply lack of
belief in God
Plenty of theists
think so So one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever
I didnt like about the former USSR with as much validity as theism
causes genocide that is to say no validity at all
I think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide
can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide
This is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act
and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide However since
the atheist set of instructions is the null set how can you show that
atheism causes genocide
David Choweller davecsiliconcscicsusbedu
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moments notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject George Bernard Shaw
There are scores of thousands of human insects who are
ready at a moments notice to reveal the Will of God on
every possible subject George Bernard Shaw
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: RIMSAT, US/Russian joint venture
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 121
I've been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest. I've
transcribed some of my notes below. Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible, please assume that all factual errors are mine. Permission is
granted to copy this without restriction.
Michael Sternberg, Cheif of Operations of RIMSAT, was invited to speak at an
informal lunch held by ACDIS here on the campus of the University of Illinois.
ACDIS is an organization on campus that deals with Arms Control, Disarmament and
International Security. RIMSAT was considered an appropriate topic because the
company is using Russian launchers and satellites. I think it also helped that
his daughter is a grad student in the International Relations program.
The concept behind RIMSAT apparently began when Matt Neilson (?) went to Tonga
to visit a friend. While he was there, he somehow ended up visiting the king,
who happened to be a big TV fan. Matt bought the King a satellite dish, which
the king thought was really nifty. Since Tonga has a GNP of about $70 million,
His Majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this. Matt thought
there probably was, so at his suggestion, Tonga applied for 31 geosynchronous
satellite slots. While this isn't entirely off the wall, it was very unusual,
seeing as Tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program, and 31 is a lot of
slots.
The whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and Carl
Hilliard (who is apparently a respected space lawyer) wrote several opinions
supporting Tonga's case. Eventually Tonga ended up with 7 slots, ranging from
70 E to 170 E (slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside).
According to Sternberg, four of these, from 130 E to 142 E are the best in the
world because they are excellently placed for communications between Hawaii and
the Pacific Rim.
RIMSAT was formed to use these slots. It was officially formed in Nevis as a tax
haven. They tried for a few years to raise funds in the west, however, to
fill 7 slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have
cost approximately $2 billion. It's not easy to raise that kind of money.
Eventually, they hit upon the idea of using Russian hardware. They began
negotiating with Glavkosmos for hardware. Mr Sternberg describes operating in
Moscow in such harsh terms that I don't think I'll visit there for a long time.
Besides a significant lack of creature comforts, he was not happy with the way
that people operate. For example "everybody can sell you everything."
Everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the
only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by.
Eventually, RIMSAT arranged a deal with Glavkosmos for 6 satellites at a cost
of $150 million. However, Glavkosmos lost favor after the coup. Sternberg
says that this is because they were basically a bunch of KGB operatives who
went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures. Since Glavkosmos was
out of power, he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities. He
again described life in a Moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms. Eventually,
he worked out a deal and on Dec 4, 1992 he met with Koptev, who heads the
Russian space program, to sign the deal. Koptev insisted on a few concessions
before signing and according to Sternberg he arranged these new rules to
allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as RIMSAT.
The next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware, NPO Applied
Mechanics -- NPO PM to use their acronym. This organization is located in
Siberia (can't figure out how to spell the town, I need an atlas) and has built
about 1500 vehicles since the dawn of the space age. Sternberg commented that
siberians are very different from Musovites. They are hard workers, honest
people who team up to get things done, very much like midwesterners. At this
point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on
both siberians and midwesterners :-)
Sternberg had lots of good things to say about NPO PM. His company is
apparently lookng for $100 million to invest in the firm to become 50% partners.It apparently costs the Russians about $4 million to build a satellite that
would sell for $50 million in the west. If you want to give them
specifications, they'll build you a satellite. For the particular satellites
that RIMSAT will be using, costs run about $378,000 per transponder year. This
compares to $810,000 t/y in the U.S. They can sell their time for about $1.1
million compared to $2.6 million in the U.S. RIMSAT will launch their
satellites on Protons. To get the best prices, they bought in bulk. They
have the rights to twelve launches, so if any of you need a lift I can give
you their address. The first launch is scheduled for October and they are
getting one used satellite from the Russians, which is being moved into place
now.
Tidbits:
* Sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs, not big
business because big business is just like what they have over there, except
that "we have better paper, both in the bathroom and in the copier."
* Russian launches are self insured. The promise to replace a failed launch
within 9 months.
* Major investors in RIMSAT include Russell 20/20, which is a huge retirement
fund organization, Cellsat, which is a big telecom business in southeast Asia,
and a fund operated by some of the big names in U.S aerospace which he says is
sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off.
* He downplayed the instabilites in the ex-USSR saying that we are worried
partly because we aren't used to seeing Russia as anything but an unvarying
monolith. Italy gets a new government "every two weeks" but we don't worry
because we're used to it. He predicted that once we get used to seeing what
really goes on in Russia we won't worry about their stability as much.
* Part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering
money. The central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments, putting
25% in their coffers and replacing the rest with the "equivalent" value in
rubles. To get around this, RIMSAT pays their hard currency into an Austrian
bank account. NPO PM then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that
the only the contractors get swindled by the government.
* One of the big problems RIMSAT has had is stonewalling by the western
satellite industry. However, Intelsat recently bought three of the same type
of satellites, which was rather reassuring.
* The biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive
technology and shorter lifetime. The older Gorizont (Horizon) satellites have
a lifetime of about 5 years, while the more modern Express satellites compare
well with western technology and last about 8 years. While this is much
shorter than 15 years for western satellites, Sternberg downplayed the
difference. At these prices they can afford to launch new ones. In addition,
shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer
technology so they will be able to compete better than older, out of date
hardware.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject RIMSAT USRussian joint venture
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 121
Ive been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest Ive
transcribed some of my notes below Since my note taking ability is by no means
infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine Permission is
granted to copy this without restriction
Michael Sternberg Cheif of Operations of RIMSAT was invited to speak at an
informal lunch held by ACDIS here on the campus of the University of Illinois
ACDIS is an organization on campus that deals with Arms Control Disarmament and
International Security RIMSAT was considered an appropriate topic because the
company is using Russian launchers and satellites I think it also helped that
his daughter is a grad student in the International Relations program
The concept behind RIMSAT apparently began when Matt Neilson went to Tonga
to visit a friend While he was there he somehow ended up visiting the king
who happened to be a big TV fan Matt bought the King a satellite dish which
the king thought was really nifty Since Tonga has a GNP of about 70 million
His Majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this Matt thought
there probably was so at his suggestion Tonga applied for 31 geosynchronous
satellite slots While this isnt entirely off the wall it was very unusual
seeing as Tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program and 31 is a lot of
slots
The whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and Carl
Hilliard who is apparently a respected space lawyer wrote several opinions
supporting Tongas case Eventually Tonga ended up with 7 slots ranging from
70 E to 170 E slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside
According to Sternberg four of these from 130 E to 142 E are the best in the
world because they are excellently placed for communications between Hawaii and
the Pacific Rim
RIMSAT was formed to use these slots It was officially formed in Nevis as a tax
haven They tried for a few years to raise funds in the west however to
fill 7 slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have
cost approximately 2 billion Its not easy to raise that kind of money
Eventually they hit upon the idea of using Russian hardware They began
negotiating with Glavkosmos for hardware Mr Sternberg describes operating in
Moscow in such harsh terms that I dont think Ill visit there for a long time
Besides a significant lack of creature comforts he was not happy with the way
that people operate For example everybody can sell you everything
Everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the
only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by
Eventually RIMSAT arranged a deal with Glavkosmos for 6 satellites at a cost
of 150 million However Glavkosmos lost favor after the coup Sternberg
says that this is because they were basically a bunch of KGB operatives who
went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures Since Glavkosmos was
out of power he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities He
again described life in a Moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms Eventually
he worked out a deal and on Dec 4 1992 he met with Koptev who heads the
Russian space program to sign the deal Koptev insisted on a few concessions
before signing and according to Sternberg he arranged these new rules to
allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as RIMSAT
The next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware NPO Applied
Mechanics NPO PM to use their acronym This organization is located in
Siberia cant figure out how to spell the town I need an atlas and has built
about 1500 vehicles since the dawn of the space age Sternberg commented that
siberians are very different from Musovites They are hard workers honest
people who team up to get things done very much like midwesterners At this
point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on
both siberians and midwesterners
Sternberg had lots of good things to say about NPO PM His company is
apparently lookng for 100 million to invest in the firm to become 50 partnersIt apparently costs the Russians about 4 million to build a satellite that
would sell for 50 million in the west If you want to give them
specifications theyll build you a satellite For the particular satellites
that RIMSAT will be using costs run about 378000 per transponder year This
compares to 810000 ty in the US They can sell their time for about 11
million compared to 26 million in the US RIMSAT will launch their
satellites on Protons To get the best prices they bought in bulk They
have the rights to twelve launches so if any of you need a lift I can give
you their address The first launch is scheduled for October and they are
getting one used satellite from the Russians which is being moved into place
now
Tidbits
Sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs not big
business because big business is just like what they have over there except
that we have better paper both in the bathroom and in the copier
Russian launches are self insured The promise to replace a failed launch
within 9 months
Major investors in RIMSAT include Russell 2020 which is a huge retirement
fund organization Cellsat which is a big telecom business in southeast Asia
and a fund operated by some of the big names in US aerospace which he says is
sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off
He downplayed the instabilites in the exUSSR saying that we are worried
partly because we arent used to seeing Russia as anything but an unvarying
monolith Italy gets a new government every two weeks but we dont worry
because were used to it He predicted that once we get used to seeing what
really goes on in Russia we wont worry about their stability as much
Part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering
money The central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments putting
25 in their coffers and replacing the rest with the equivalent value in
rubles To get around this RIMSAT pays their hard currency into an Austrian
bank account NPO PM then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that
the only the contractors get swindled by the government
One of the big problems RIMSAT has had is stonewalling by the western
satellite industry However Intelsat recently bought three of the same type
of satellites which was rather reassuring
The biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive
technology and shorter lifetime The older Gorizont Horizon satellites have
a lifetime of about 5 years while the more modern Express satellites compare
well with western technology and last about 8 years While this is much
shorter than 15 years for western satellites Sternberg downplayed the
difference At these prices they can afford to launch new ones In addition
shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer
technology so they will be able to compete better than older out of date
hardware
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Life on Mars???
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <C5uB2s.FD@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes...
>In article <1993Apr20.120311.1@pa881a.inland.com> schiewer@pa881a.inland.com (Don Schiewer) writes:
>There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life.
Not quite true. One of the instruments on Mars Observer will be searching
for potential fossil sites.
>>Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian?
>
>Mars Observer, currently approaching Mars, will probably try to get a better
>image or two of the "face" at some point. It's not high priority; nobody
>takes it very seriously. The shadowed half of the face does not look very
>face-like, so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
>the illusion.
The face and the Viking landing sites will be targeted by the high-resolution
camera on Mars Observer.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Life on Mars
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 24
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1993Apr201203111pa881ainlandcom schiewerpa881ainlandcom Don Schiewer writes
There are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life
Not quite true One of the instruments on Mars Observer will be searching
for potential fossil sites
Are we going back to Mars to look at this face agian
Mars Observer currently approaching Mars will probably try to get a better
image or two of the face at some point Its not high priority nobody
takes it very seriously The shadowed half of the face does not look very
facelike so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin
the illusion
The face and the Viking landing sites will be targeted by the highresolution
camera on Mars Observer
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: agar.engin.umich.edu
In article <66019@mimsy.umd.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:
>
>> IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST.
>
>"Contradictory" is a property of language. If I correct this to
>
> THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>I will object to definitions as reality. If you then amend it to
>
> THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
>
>then we've come to something which is plainly false. Failures in
>description are merely failures in description.
How about this description: "An object that is, at one time, both a
Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle"? I hold that no object satisfying
this description could exist. The description is inconsistent, and hence
describes an object that could not exist.
Now, suppose someone pointed to a bicycle, and said, "That object is,
at one time, both a Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle." This does
not mean that the bicycle does not exist, it measn that the description
was incorrectly applied.
The atheist says, "The descriptions of God that I have been presented with
are contradictory, and hence describe something that cannot exist."
Now, your position (so far as I can gather) is that God exists, but the
descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions
of It.
This is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle, and,
when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one,
are told that it is a "Euclidean circle-square". Can they be blamed for
doubting rather strongly that this 'bicycle' exists at all?
>(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)
No kidding. :->
Sincerely,
Ray Ingles ingles@engin.umich.edu
"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are going to the
stars!" - Robert A. Heinlein
after prepro From inglesenginumichedu Ray Ingles
Subject Re Benediktine Metaphysics
Organization University of Michigan Engineering Ann Arbor
Lines 45
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost agarenginumichedu
In article 66019mimsyumdedu mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Benedikt Rosenau writes with great authority
IF IT IS CONTRADICTORY IT CANNOT EXIST
Contradictory is a property of language If I correct this to
THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
I will object to definitions as reality If you then amend it to
THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
then weve come to something which is plainly false Failures in
description are merely failures in description
How about this description An object that is at one time both a
Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle I hold that no object satisfying
this description could exist The description is inconsistent and hence
describes an object that could not exist
Now suppose someone pointed to a bicycle and said That object is
at one time both a Euclidean square and a Euclidean circle This does
not mean that the bicycle does not exist it measn that the description
was incorrectly applied
The atheist says The descriptions of God that I have been presented with
are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist
Now your position so far as I can gather is that God exists but the
descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions
of It
This is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle and
when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one
are told that it is a Euclidean circlesquare Can they be blamed for
doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists at all
Im not an objectivist remember
No kidding
Sincerely
Ray Ingles inglesenginumichedu
The meek can have the Earth The rest of us are going to the
stars Robert A Heinlein
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Lines: 31
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <25228@ksr.com>, jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods) writes:
>nanderso@Endor.sim.es.com (Norman Anderson) writes:
>>jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch) writes:
>>>effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
>>>recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
>>>some sort rattling around apparently inside the case.
>>I heard a similar statement in our local news (UTAH) tonight. They referred
>>to the tool as "...the PLIERS that took a ride into space...". They also
>>said that a Thiokol (sp?) employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
>>during assembly of one SRB.
It was a test of the first reusable tool.
>
>I assume, then, that someone at Thiokol put on their "manager's hat" and said
>that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
>it was a bad idea, regardless of where that tool might have ended up.
>
>Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol "manager's hats" are shaped like cones?
Pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better, and
be closer to their brains?
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood. We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909 |
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Lines 31
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
In article 25228ksrcom jfwksrcom John F Woods writes
nandersoEndorsimescom Norman Anderson writes
jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch writes
effect that one of the SSRBs that was recovered after the
recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of
some sort rattling around apparently inside the case
I heard a similar statement in our local news UTAH tonight They referred
to the tool as the PLIERS that took a ride into space They also
said that a Thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind
during assembly of one SRB
It was a test of the first reusable tool
I assume then that someone at Thiokol put on their managers hat and said
that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the SRB to look inside
it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up
Why do I get the feeling that Thiokol managers hats are shaped like cones
Pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better and
be closer to their brains
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood We need
pyronskndivdsegticom solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
I once read an article on Computer technology which stated that
every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it
replaced. Silicon was less effective then the germanium products
then available. GaAs was less capable then Silicon. Multi-processors
were slower then existent single processors.
What the argument was, though was that these new technologies promised either
theoretically future higher performance or lower cost or higher densities.
I think that the DC-1 may g=fit into this same model.
ELV's can certainly launch more weight then a SSRT, but
an SSRT offers the prospect of greater cycle times and lower costs.
This is kind of a speculative posting, but I thought i'd throw it out as
a hjistorical framework for those interested in the project.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Express Access Online Communications Greenbelt MD USA
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
I once read an article on Computer technology which stated that
every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it
replaced Silicon was less effective then the germanium products
then available GaAs was less capable then Silicon Multiprocessors
were slower then existent single processors
What the argument was though was that these new technologies promised either
theoretically future higher performance or lower cost or higher densities
I think that the DC1 may gfit into this same model
ELVs can certainly launch more weight then a SSRT but
an SSRT offers the prospect of greater cycle times and lower costs
This is kind of a speculative posting but I thought id throw it out as
a hjistorical framework for those interested in the project
pat
preprocess doc Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
<SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> <kmr4.1444.734058912@po.CWRU.edu>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 26
In article <kmr4.1444.734058912@po.CWRU.edu>, kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes...
>In article <SUOPANKI.93Apr6024902@stekt6.oulu.fi> suopanki@stekt6.oulu.fi (Heikki T. Suopanki) writes:
>>:> God is eternal. [A = B]
>>:> Jesus is God. [C = A]
>>:> Therefore, Jesus is eternal. [C = B]
>>
>>:> This works both logically and mathematically. God is of the set of
>>:> things which are eternal. Jesus is a subset of God. Therefore
>>:> Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal.
The first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity
statements, since the "is" in those statements is the "is" of predication
rather than of identity. Instead, they should be translated using a
predicate letter. Using "g" to designate God and "j" to designate Jesus,
and the predicate letter "E" for the property of being eternal, the
first premise is Eg and the conclusion is Ej.
The second premise appears to contain an "is" of identity, in which
case it can be properly symbolized as j = g. But your remark that "Jesus
is a subset of God" suggests that strict identity is not desired here.
If, however, the first premise means that all members making up the set
God have the property of being eternal, the same conclusion follows.
Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
after prepro Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
From lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard
Distribution worldlocal
Organization University of Arizona
NntpPostingHost skybluccitarizonaedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Lines 26
In article kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article suopankistekt6oulufi Heikki T Suopanki writes
God is eternal [A B]
Jesus is God [C A]
Therefore Jesus is eternal [C B]
This works both logically and mathematically God is of the set of
things which are eternal Jesus is a subset of God Therefore
Jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal
The first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity
statements since the is in those statements is the is of predication
rather than of identity Instead they should be translated using a
predicate letter Using g to designate God and j to designate Jesus
and the predicate letter E for the property of being eternal the
first premise is Eg and the conclusion is Ej
The second premise appears to contain an is of identity in which
case it can be properly symbolized as j g But your remark that Jesus
is a subset of God suggests that strict identity is not desired here
If however the first premise means that all members making up the set
God have the property of being eternal the same conclusion follows
Jim Lippard LippardCCITARIZONAEDU
Dept of Philosophy LippardARIZVMSBITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721
preprocess doc From: apryan@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: STS-56 Press Kit
Lines: 9
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College Dublin
Lines: 9
Does anyone know ifthe STS-56 email press kit was ever released?
-Tony Ryan, "Astronomy & Space", new International magazine, available from:
Astronomy Ireland, P.O.Box 2888, Dublin 1, Ireland.
6 issues (one year sub.): UK 10.00 pounds, US$20 surface (add US$8 airmail).
ACCESS/VISA/MASTERCARD accepted (give number, expiration date, name&address).
(WORLD'S LARGEST ASTRO. SOC. per capita - unless you know better? 0.033%)
Tel: 0891-88-1950 (UK/N.Ireland) 1550-111-442 (Eire). Cost up to 48p per min
after prepro From apryanvax1tcdie
Subject STS56 Press Kit
Lines 9
NntpPostingHost vax1tcdie
Organization Trinity College Dublin
Lines 9
Does anyone know ifthe STS56 email press kit was ever released
Tony Ryan Astronomy Space new International magazine available from
Astronomy Ireland POBox 2888 Dublin 1 Ireland
6 issues one year sub UK 1000 pounds US20 surface add US8 airmail
ACCESSVISAMASTERCARD accepted give number expiration date nameaddress
WORLDS LARGEST ASTRO SOC per capita unless you know better 0033
Tel 0891881950 UKNIreland 1550111442 Eire Cost up to 48p per min
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 15
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes...
>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. For
>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.
It can be, but the problem is a political one, not a technical one.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 15
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again
It can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.)
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr3.195642.25261@njitgw.njit.edu>, dmu5391@hertz.njit.edu (David Utidjian Eng.Sci.) writes...
>In article <31MAR199321091163@juliet.caltech.edu> lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.) writes:
> For a complete description of what is, and is not atheism
>or agnosticism see the FAQ for alt.atheism in alt.answers... I think.
>utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu
I apologize for posting this. I thought it was only going to talk.origins.
I also took my definitions from a 1938 Websters.
Nonetheless, the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like
'bimonthly' and 'biweekly' they have no commonly accepted definitions and
should be used with care.
larry henling lmh@shakes.caltech.edu
after prepro From lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
Organization California Institute of Technology
Lines 13
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NNTPPostingHost julietcaltechedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr319564225261njitgwnjitedu dmu5391hertznjitedu David Utidjian EngSci writes
In article 31MAR199321091163julietcaltechedu lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M writes
For a complete description of what is and is not atheism
or agnosticism see the FAQ for altatheism in altanswers I think
utidjianremarqueberkeleyedu
I apologize for posting this I thought it was only going to talkorigins
I also took my definitions from a 1938 Websters
Nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like
bimonthly and biweekly they have no commonly accepted definitions and
should be used with care
larry henling lmhshakescaltechedu
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 20
In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
> I propose that these two trends -- greater level of general
> depression in society (and other psychological problems) and
> greater sexual promiscuity -- are linked, with the latter being
> a prime cause of the former. I cannot provide any evidence beyond
> this at this stage, but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to
> me and I request that people ponder upon it.
I pondered it for all of ten seconds when I realised that since
we don't have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity,
and since the whole issue of "depression" isn't at all well
defined for earlier centuries, you are probably talking crap.
Of course, you could pull a Mozumder on us, and say that people
who are having sex outside marriage are *defined* to be depressed.
I can't say I'd ever noticed, myself.
jon.
after prepro Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 20
In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
I propose that these two trends greater level of general
depression in society and other psychological problems and
greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being
a prime cause of the former I cannot provide any evidence beyond
this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to
me and I request that people ponder upon it
I pondered it for all of ten seconds when I realised that since
we dont have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity
and since the whole issue of depression isnt at all well
defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap
Of course you could pull a Mozumder on us and say that people
who are having sex outside marriage are defined to be depressed
I cant say Id ever noticed myself
jon
preprocess doc From: almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM (Alan Monday-WWCS Business Mgt. Group)
Subject: Re: Solar Sail Data
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Reply-To: almo@packmind.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: packmind.ebay.sun.com
Hey!? What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus+500?
In article 29848@news.duc.auburn.edu, snydefj@eng.auburn.edu (Frank J. Snyder) writes:
>
>I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
> Sails. I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
> back in the late 70's but I am having trouble gathering such information.
>
>Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project ?
after prepro From almopackmindEBaySunCOM Alan MondayWWCS Business Mgt Group
Subject Re Solar Sail Data
Organization Sun Microsystems Inc
Lines 14
Distribution world
ReplyTo almopackmindEBaySunCOM
NNTPPostingHost packmindebaysuncom
Hey What happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be
for Columbus500
In article 29848newsducauburnedu snydefjengauburnedu Frank J Snyder writes
I am looking for any information concerning projects involving Solar
Sails I understand that the JPL did an extensive study on the subject
back in the late 70s but I am having trouble gathering such information
Are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project
preprocess doc From: msjohnso@donald.WichitaKS.NCR.COM (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: NCR Corporation Wichita, KS
Lines: 86
pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:
>I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
>the back. I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
>science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
>It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.
The company was probably "Public Missiles, Inc" of Michigan.
>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M". They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.
Yup.
>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal? I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
>Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.
Nope, it's not illegal. It is, however, closely regulated. In order to
purchase and use the big rocket motors required, it is necessary to be
one of the following:
a) An employee of a government agency.
b) An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets.
c) A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets. There are two such organizations:
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry.
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own.
The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations, upon request, to any
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions
to avoid conflicts with aircraft. The usual stipulations are:
- Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed. Depending on the
location, this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL.
- The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site.
- Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited.
- The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time.
Most of the launches that are held (and there are dozens of them every year)
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light, such as over the
western deserts (the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of *nothing to hit* on the ground).
The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members'
use, to insure safety. Depending on motor size, the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet.
By the way, rockets under 1 lb and powered by an "F" motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway. See FAR 101, Subpart
C, for details.
As for recovery...although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50,000 feet, most of them only get to 2,000 to 5,000 feet. The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter, and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute,
or multiple parachutes, depending on the payload. Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounder--particularly at launches
in the eastern US, where there are more obstructions.
Camera, telemetry transmitter, and video payloads are becoming quite common.
>And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one. I'm not that crazy.
Why not? It's a lot of fun...check out the traffic on rec.models.rockets
for information about the model (3 lb and under) and high power (everything
bigger) rocket hobbies. As with all dangerous activities, the key is to
practice safety. I've been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 4-5 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years, and still have all my extremities intact.
>-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas
That's another thing. NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS. NONE! Please forgive me for shouting, but that's one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby.
>/* Just remember, you *WILL* die someday. */
True. But it will not be related to the rocket hobby, unless I get
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand.
--
Mark Johnson USnail: NCR Peripheral Products Division
E-mail: Mark.Johnson@WichitaKS.NCR.COM 3718 N. Rock Rd.
Voice: (316) 636-8189 [V+ 654-8189] Wichita, KS 67226
[Non-business email: 76670.1775@compuserve.com]
after prepro From msjohnsodonaldWichitaKSNCRCOM Mark Johnson
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization NCR Corporation Wichita KS
Lines 86
pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes
I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that
The company was probably Public Missiles Inc of Michigan
Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet
Yup
Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down
Nope its not illegal It is however closely regulated In order to
purchase and use the big rocket motors required it is necessary to be
one of the following
a An employee of a government agency
b An employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets
c A member or representative of an educational organization involved in
research or other uses of rockets There are two such organizations
The Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry
Members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction
and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own
The FAA will issue a waiver of its regulations upon request to any
organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions
to avoid conflicts with aircraft The usual stipulations are
Only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed Depending on the
location this ceiling may be from 5000 to 50000 feet AGL
The operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft
within the operating radius around the launch site
Flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited
The FAA will provide a NOTAM informing other users of the airspace that
unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time
Most of the launches that are held and there are dozens of them every year
are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light such as over the
western deserts the Black Rock Desert north of Reno is particularly popular
since it is 25 x 150 miles of nothing to hit on the ground
The two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members
use to insure safety Depending on motor size the launcher setback is
from 50 to 500 or more feet
By the way rockets under 1 lb and powered by an F motor are exempt from
most Federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway See FAR 101 Subpart
C for details
As for recoveryalthough the higher altitude rockets can reach up to
50000 feet most of them only get to 2000 to 5000 feet The typical
rocket is 2 to 6 inches in diameter and carries a 3 to 6 foot parachute
or multiple parachutes depending on the payload Many rockets also carry
either a small transmitter or an audio sounderparticularly at launches
in the eastern US where there are more obstructions
Camera telemetry transmitter and video payloads are becoming quite common
And no Im not going to even think of buying one Im not that crazy
Why not Its a lot of funcheck out the traffic on recmodelsrockets
for information about the model 3 lb and under and high power everything
bigger rocket hobbies As with all dangerous activities the key is to
practice safety Ive been flying consumer rockets ranging up to 45 lbs
takeoff weight for 27 years and still have all my extremities intact
Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas
Thats another thing NO EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS OF ANY KIND ARE ALLOWED ON THESE
ROCKETS NONE Please forgive me for shouting but thats one of the biggest
misconceptions people have about our hobby
Just remember you WILL die someday
True But it will not be related to the rocket hobby unless I get
hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand
Mark Johnson USnail NCR Peripheral Products Division
Email MarkJohnsonWichitaKSNCRCOM 3718 N Rock Rd
Voice 316 6368189 [V 6548189] Wichita KS 67226
[Nonbusiness email 766701775compuservecom]
preprocess doc From: jennise@opus.dgi.com (Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals)
Subject: Looking for a little research help [ addendum]
Organization: Dynamic Graphics Inc.
Lines: 10
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.dgi.com
Sorry but I forgot this ps.
Right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so it's
kind of necessary (to me) that any responses be sent to me directly.
Thanks a lot
Jennise
jennise@dgi.com
after prepro From jenniseopusdgicom Milady Printcap the goddess of peripherals
Subject Looking for a little research help [ addendum]
Organization Dynamic Graphics Inc
Lines 10
Distribution usa
NNTPPostingHost opusdgicom
Sorry but I forgot this ps
Right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so its
kind of necessary to me that any responses be sent to me directly
Thanks a lot
Jennise
jennisedgicom
preprocess doc From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio de Re)
Subject: Re: atheist?
Reply-To: lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA
Organization: MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines: 33
Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
>belief for me to be comfortable with. Any strong atheists out there
>care to comment? As far as I can tell, strong atheists are far
>outnumbered on alt.atheism by weak atheists.
At the cost of repudiating the FAQ, I think too much is made of the
strong vs weak atheism issue, although in the context of alt.atheism,
where we're continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists
"believe" in the non-existence of god, I think the separation is a
valid one.
To cover my arse, what I'm trying to say is that there is an
infinitely grey area between weak and strong, as well as between
strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism (I wish!). Whereas I
_logically_ can only support the weak atheist position, in effect I am
a strong atheist (and wish I could be a mathematical one). To
justify my strong atheist position I believe I need only show that
the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny
is faulty.
If I read the FAQ correctly, no argument for the existence of god
(generic, as represented by mainstream theologians) has ever been
found to be unassailable. To me this is adequate evidence that the
_real_god_ is undefinable (or at least no definition has yet been
found to be watertight), which in turn I accept as sufficient to
base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god.
I'm a little fuzzy on the edges, though, so opinions are welcome
(but perhaps we should change the thread subject).
--
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.Alt.ZA) - tab stops at four.
after prepro From lucioproximaaltza Lucio de Re
Subject Re atheist
ReplyTo lucioproximaAltZA
Organization MegaByte Digital Telecommunications
Lines 33
Tony Lezard writes
My opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much
belief for me to be comfortable with Any strong atheists out there
care to comment As far as I can tell strong atheists are far
outnumbered on altatheism by weak atheists
At the cost of repudiating the FAQ I think too much is made of the
strong vs weak atheism issue although in the context of altatheism
where were continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists
believe in the nonexistence of god I think the separation is a
valid one
To cover my arse what Im trying to say is that there is an
infinitely grey area between weak and strong as well as between
strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism I wish Whereas I
_logically_ can only support the weak atheist position in effect I am
a strong atheist and wish I could be a mathematical one To
justify my strong atheist position I believe I need only show that
the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny
is faulty
If I read the FAQ correctly no argument for the existence of god
generic as represented by mainstream theologians has ever been
found to be unassailable To me this is adequate evidence that the
_real_god_ is undefinable or at least no definition has yet been
found to be watertight which in turn I accept as sufficient to
base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god
Im a little fuzzy on the edges though so opinions are welcome
but perhaps we should change the thread subject
Lucio de Re lucioproximaAltZA tab stops at four
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 8
Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
: Nice cop out bill.
I'm sure you're right, but I have no idea to what you refer. Would you
mind explaining how I copped out?
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 8
Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote
Nice cop out bill
Im sure youre right but I have no idea to what you refer Would you
mind explaining how I copped out
Bill
preprocess doc From: cchung@sneezy.phy.duke.edu (Charles Chung)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Lines: 24
Nntp-Posting-Host: bashful.phy.duke.edu
In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary
Coffman) writes:
> >Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
> >be significant commerical activity on the Moon?
>
> Wishful thinking mostly.
[Lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbase=fantasyland]
Then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the
earth? I'm not trying to flame you. I just want to know where you
stand.
-Chuck
---
*******************************************************************
Chuck Chung (919) 660-2539 (O)
Duke University Dept. of Physics (919) 684-1517 (H)
Durham, N.C. 27706 cchung@phy.duke.edu
"If pro is the opposite of con,
then what is the opposite of progress?"
*******************************************************************
after prepro From cchungsneezyphydukeedu Charles Chung
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
Lines 24
NntpPostingHost bashfulphydukeedu
In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary
Coffman writes
Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon
Wishful thinking mostly
[Lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbasefantasyland]
Then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the
earth Im not trying to flame you I just want to know where you
stand
Chuck
Chuck Chung 919 6602539 O
Duke University Dept of Physics 919 6841517 H
Durham NC 27706 cchungphydukeedu
If pro is the opposite of con
then what is the opposite of progress
preprocess doc From: jcm@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Jonathan McDowell)
Subject: Re: Shuttle Launch Question
Organization: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA, USA
Distribution: sci
Lines: 23
From article <C5owCB.n3p@world.std.com>, by tombaker@world.std.com (Tom A Baker):
>>In article <C5JLwx.4H9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, ETRAT@ttacs1.ttu.edu (Pack Rat) writes...
>>>"Clear caution & warning memory. Verify no unexpected
>>>errors. ...". I am wondering what an "expected error" might
>>>be. Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but
>
> Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered.
> "Yes that is an error, but we already knew about it"
> I'd be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is.
>
> tom
My understanding is that the 'expected errors' are basically
known bugs in the warning system software - things are checked
that don't have the right values in yet because they aren't
set till after launch, and suchlike. Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs, they just tell the crew
'ok, if you see a warning no. 213 before liftoff, ignore it'.
- Jonathan
after prepro From jcmheadcfaharvardedu Jonathan McDowell
Subject Re Shuttle Launch Question
Organization Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory Cambridge MA USA
Distribution sci
Lines 23
From article by tombakerworldstdcom Tom A Baker
In article ETRATttacs1ttuedu Pack Rat writes
Clear caution warning memory Verify no unexpected
errors I am wondering what an expected error might
be Sorry if this is a really dumb question but
Parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered
Yes that is an error but we already knew about it
Id be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is
tom
My understanding is that the expected errors are basically
known bugs in the warning system software things are checked
that dont have the right values in yet because they arent
set till after launch and suchlike Rather than fix the code
and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew
ok if you see a warning no 213 before liftoff ignore it
Jonathan
preprocess doc Subject: Space FAQ 03/15 - Data Sources
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:55:35 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes: <data_730956427@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Lines: 463
Archive-name: space/data
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:07 $
ONLINE AND OTHER SOURCES OF IMAGES, DATA, ETC.
INTRODUCTION
A wide variety of images, data, catalogs, information releases, and
other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net.
A few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access, while the
remainder support some form of file transfer. Many sites are listed as
providing 'anonymous FTP'. This refers to the File Transfer Protocol on
the Internet. Sites not connected to the Internet cannot use FTP
directly, but there are a few automated FTP servers which operates via
email. Send mail containing only the word HELP to ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com
or bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu, and the servers will send you instructions
on how to make requests.
The sources with the broadest selection of material are the NASA Ames
SPACE archive and the National Space Science Data Center.
Don't even ask for images to be posted to the net. The data volume is
huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it.
VIEWING IMAGES
The possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly
large, and I won't attempt to cover common formats (GIF, etc.) here. To
read PDS and VICAR (and many other) formats on Unix systems running X,
use XV 2.11, available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu
(18.24.0.12) in contrib/xv-2.11.tar.Z and the other standard X11 FTP
sites.
The FAQ for the Usenet group alt.binaries.pictures discusses image
formats and how to get image viewing software. A copy of this document
is available by anonymous FTP from the Usenet FAQ archives at
pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), in directory
pub/usenet/alt.binaries.pictures.
ONLINE ARCHIVES
NASA AMES
Extensive archives are maintained at NASA Ames and are available via
anonymous FTP or an email server. These archives include many images and
a wide variety of documents including this FAQ list, NASA press
releases, shuttle launch advisories, and mission status reports. Please
note that these are NOT maintained on an official basis.
FTP users should connect to ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3) and look in
pub/SPACE. pub/SPACE/Index contains a listing of files available in the
archive (the index is about 200K by itself).
To access the archives by email, send a letter to
archive-server@ames.arc.nasa.gov (or ames!archive-server). In the
subject of your letter (or in the body), use commands like:
send SPACE Index
send SPACE SHUTTLE/ss01.23.91.
The capitalization of the subdirectory names is important. All are in
caps. Only text files are handled by the email server at present; use
one of the FTP email servers described in the introduction to this
section for images or programs.
The Magellan Venus and Voyager Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus CD-ROM image
disks have been put online in the CDROM and CDROM2 directories. The
disks will be rotated on a weekly basis. Thousands of images are
available in these collections.
The GIF directory contains images in GIF format. The VICAR directory
contains Magellan images in VICAR format (these are also available in
the GIF directory). A PC program capable of displaying these files is
found in the IMDISP directory (see the item "VIEWING IMAGES" below).
The NASA media guide describes the various NASA centers and how to
contact their public affairs officers; this may be useful when pursuing
specific information. It's in MISC/media.guide.
Any problems with the archive server should be reported to Peter Yee
(yee@ames.arc.nasa.gov).
NASA ASTROPHYSICS DATA SYSTEM
The ADS is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and
provides uniform access to ground-based and space-based astronomy data
from NASA data centers across the country. It currently has over 140
data catalogs of radio, infrared, optical, UV, and X-ray data which can
be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog. The ADS
also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results. In addition,
ADS has a Beta version of an Abstracts Service which allows users to
query over 125,000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors,
keywords, title words, or abstract text words.
ADS use requires direct Internet access. For more info and to sign up to
become a user, email ads@cuads.coloradu.edu. The User's Guide and
"QuickStart" Guide are available by anonymous FTP to sao-ftp.harvard.edu
in directory pub/ads/ADS_User_Guide (PostScript files).
Contact Carolyn Stern Grant (stern@cfa.harvard.edu).
NASA JET PROPULSION LAB (MISSION INFORMATION AND IMAGES)
pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.6.2) is an anonymous FTP site operated by
the JPL Public Information Office, containing news releases, status
reports, fact sheets, images, and other data on JPL missions. It may
also be reached by modem at (818)-354-1333 (no parity, 8 data bits, 1
stop bit).
Contact newsdesk@jplpost.jpl.nasa.gov or phone (818)-354-7170.
NASA LANGLEY (TECHNICAL REPORTS)
techreports.larc.nasa.gov is an anonymous FTP site offering technical
reports. To get started, cd to directory pub/techreports/larc/92 and
retrieve files README and abstracts.92. Most files are compressed
PostScript. The reports are also in a WAIS database with the following
description:
(:source
:version 3
:ip-name "techreports.larc.nasa.gov"
:tcp-port 210
:database-name "nasa-larc-abs"
:cost 0.00
:cost-unit :free
:maintainer "M.L.Nelson@LaRC.NASA.GOV"
:description "NASA Langley Research Center Technical Reports
Contact tr-admin@techreports.larc.nasa.gov.
NASA SPACELINK
SpaceLink is an online service located at Marshall Space Flight Center
in Huntsville, Alabama. The system is specifically designed for
teachers. The data base is arranged to provide easy access to current
and historical information on NASA aeronautics, space research, and
technology transfer information. Also included are suggested classroom
activities that incorporate information on NASA projects to teach a
number of scientific principles. Unlike bulletin board systems, NASA
Spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers. However it
does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments
for NASA which may be answered by regular mail. Messages are answered
electronically, even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by
mail. Messages are generally handled the next working day except during
missions when turnaround times increase. The mail system is closed-loop
between the user and NASA.
SpaceLink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs
useful for science educators as well as space graphics and GIF images
from NASA's planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope.
You can dial in at (205)-895-0028 (300/1200/2400/9600(V.32) baud, 8
bits, no parity, 1 stop bit), or telnet to spacelink.msfc.nasa.gov
(128.158.13.250, also known as xsl.msfc.nasa.gov) if you're on the
Internet. Anonymous FTP capability (password guest) is now available.
Most of this information is also available from the Ames server in
directory SPACELINK.
NATIONAL SPACE SCIENCE DATA CENTER (NSSDC)
The National Space Science Data Center is the official clearinghouse for
NASA data. The data catalog (*not* the data itself) is available online.
Internet users can telnet to nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.36.23) and
log in as 'NODIS' (no password). You can also get the catalog by sending
email to 'request@nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov'.
You can also dial in at (301)-286-9000 (300, 1200, or 2400 baud, 8 bits,
no parity, one stop). At the "Enter Number:" prompt, enter MD and
carriage return. When the system responds "Call Complete," enter a few
more carriage returns to get the "Username:" and log in as 'NODIS' (no
password).
The system is menu-driven; topics available as of 3/93 are:
1 - Master Directory - NASA & Global Change
2 - Personnel Information Management System
3 - Nimbus-7 GRID TOMS Data
4 - Interplanetary Medium Data (OMNI)
5 - Request data and/or information from NSSDC
6 - Geophysical Models
7 - CANOPUS Newsletter
8 - International Ultraviolet Explorer Data Request
9 - CZCS Browse and Order Utility
10 - Astronomical Data Center (ADC)
11 - STEP Bulletin Board Service
12 - Standards and Technology Information System
13 - Planetary Science & Magellan Project Information
14 - Other Online Data Services at NSSDC
15 - CD-ROMS Available at NSSDC
For users with Internet access, datasets are made available via
anonymous FTP once you select the desired datasets from the online
catalog. For other users, data may be ordered on CD-ROM and in other
formats. Among the many types of data available are Voyager, Magellan,
and other planetary images, Earth observation data, and star catalogs.
Viewers for Macintosh and IBM systems are also available. As an example
of the cost, an 8 CD set of Voyager images is $75. Data may ordered
online, by email, or by physical mail. The postal address is:
National Space Science Data Center
Request Coordination Office
Goddard Space Flight Center
Code 633
Greenbelt, MD 20771
Telephone: (301) 286-6695
Email address: request@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
stsci.edu (130.167.1.2) has a large amount of information about the
Hubble Space Telescope available by anonymous FTP, such as status
reports and newsletters, in addition to material oriented towards HST
observers and proposers. Get the top level README file to begin with.
Contact Pete Reppert (reppert@stsci.edu) or Chris O'Dea
(odea@stsci.edu).
STARCAT
The Space Telescope European Coordination Facility, at ESO/Garching
provides on-line access to a huge astronomical database, featuring
- Observation log files of several satellites/telescopes
(IUE,IRAS,HST,NTT...).
- Spectra and images (IUE, HST).
- Most of the astronomical catalogues (SAO, HR, NGC, PPM, IRAS,
Veron, GSC and many others, more than 50) in a very convenient
way (give center+radius+kind of objects, and you get the
corresponding files!).
Log on as ``starcat'' (no password) on node stesis.hq.eso.org
(134.171.8.100) or on STESIS (DECnet). The files created can be
retreived by FTP. Contact: Benoit Pirenne, bpirenne@eso.org (phone +49
89 320 06 433) at ST-ECF
ASTRONOMICAL DATABASES
The full SAO stellar database is *NOT* available online, probably due to
the 40 MB size. It may be ordered on magnetic tape from the NSSDC. A
subset containing position and magnitude only is available by FTP (see
"Astronomy Programs" below).
nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) has a large collection of astronomical
programs for many types of computers, databases of stars and deep sky
objects, and general astronomy information in directory /pub/astro. This
site is mainly for European users, but overseas connections are
possible.
The Ames archives contain a database of 8,436 galaxies including name,
RA, declination, magnitude, and radial velocity in MISC/galaxy.dat.
Supplied by Wayne Hayes (wayne@csri.utoronto.ca).
iris1.ucis.dal.ca (129.173.18.107) has a number of GIFs from Voyager,
Hubble, and other sources available by anonymous FTP in pub/gif (most of
this data is also in SPACE/GIF on the Ames server). Please restrict
access to 5pm - 8am Atlantic time.
pomona.claremont.edu has the Yale Bright Star catalog for anonymous FTP
in directory [.YALE_BSC]. Contact James Dishaw
(jdishaw@hmcvax.claremont.edu).
The Hubble Guide Star catalog is available on CD-ROM for the Mac and PC
for $49.95 US (catalog # ST101).
Astronomical Society of the Pacific
390 Ashton Ave.
San Francisco, CA 94112
Phone: (415) 337-2624 9 AM - 3 PM Pacific Time
FAX: (415) 337-5205
For German (and possibly other European) readers, Jost Jahn has a
service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost.
About 30-40 catalogs are available for DM 6..8/disk. Several floppy disk
formats are available. Because of the expense of receiving email on his
system, he asks that you contact him by physical mail:
Jost Jahn
Neustaedter Strasse 11
W-3123 Bodenteich
GERMANY
Phone: FRG-5824-3197
ASTRONOMY PROGRAMS
Various astronomy-related programs and databases posted to the net in
the past are archived for anonymous FTP at multiple sites, including
ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9). Also see the ASTRO-FTP list posted to sci.astro
monthly, which is more complete than this list.
Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.unix:
Volume 8: phoon moon phase and date routines
Volume 12,13: starchart starchart program & Yale Star data
Volume 15: moontool shows moon phase picture on Suns
Volume 16: sao reduced SAO catalog
Astonomical/Space-related sources of interest in comp.sources.misc:
Volume 8: moon another moon phase program
Volume 11: starchart starchart program, version 3.2
Volume 11: n3emo-orbit orbit: track earth satellites
Volume 12: starchart2 starchart program, update to version 3.2.1
Volume 13: jupmoons plotter for Jupiter's major moons [in perl]
Volume 13: lunisolar lunisolar (not sure what this does)
Volume 14: ephem-4.21 astronomical ephemeris, v4.21
Volume 14: n3emo-orbit patch to orbit 3.7
Volume 18: planet planet generation simulator
Elwood Downey (e_downey@tasha.cca.cr.rockwell.com), the author of
"ephem", has offered to mail copies to people who can't find it on one
of the archives.
XSAT, an X Window System based satellite tracking program, is
available by anonymous FTP from export.lcs.mit.edu (18.24.0.12) in
contrib/xsat1.0.tar.Z. Contact Dave Curry (davy@ecn.purdue.edu)
for more information.
Xsky, a computerized sky atlas for the X Window System, is available for
anonymous FTP on arizona.edu in the directory [.SOFTWARE.UNIX.XSKY] as
xsky.tarz. Contact Terry R. Friedrichsen (terry@venus.sunquest.com) for
more information.
The "Variable Stars Analysis Software Archive" is available via
anonymous FTP from kauri.vuw.ac.nz (130.195.11.3) in directory
pub/astrophys. This is intended for specialists in this field, and they
would appreciate people from outside New Zealand confining their FTP
access to the astrophys directory, as they pay a significant amount for
Internet access. Contents are relatively sparse at present due to the
youth of the archive - contributions are encouraged. Contact the archive
administrator, Timothy Banks (bankst@kauri.vuw.ac.nz) for more
information.
The "IDL Astronomy Users Library" is available by anonymous FTP from
idlastro.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.57.82). This is a central repository for
general purpose astronomy procedures written in IDL, a commercial image
processing, plotting, and programming language. Contact Wayne Landsman
(landsman@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov) for more information.
ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
The most recent orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are
carried on the Celestial BBS, (513)-427-0674. Documentation and tracking
software are also available on this system. The Celestial BBS may be
accessed 24 hours/day at 300, 1200, or 2400 baud using 8 data bits, 1
stop bit, no parity.
Orbital element sets are available via anonymous FTP from the
following sites:
archive.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.66) NASA,TVRO,Shuttle
directory: /pub/space
ftp.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) NASA,TVRO,Molczan,CelBBS,
directory: /pub/astro/pc/satel Shuttle (*)
kilroy.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.1.165) NASA,Molczan
directory: /pub/space/
SPACE DIGEST ARCHIVES
Copies of back issues of Space Digest are archived on
LISTSERV@UGA.BITNET. Send mail containing the message "INDEX SPACE" to
get an index of files; send it the message "GET filename filetype" to
get a particular file.
LANDSAT AND NASA PHOTOS
You can get black-and-white 1:1M prints, negatives, or positives for
$10, $18, $12 respectively for any Landsat data more than 2 years old
from EDC, (Eros (Earth Resources Orbiting Satellite) Data Center). Call
them at (605)-594-6511. You get 80 meter resolution from the MSS
scanner, 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size. I think you
have to select one band from (green, red, near IR, second near IR), but
I'm not sure. Digitial data is also available at higher prices.
Transparencies of all NASA photos available to the public can be
borrowed from the NASA photo archive; you can have copies or prints
made.
NASA Audio-Visual Facility
918 North Rengstorff Ave
Mountain View, CA 94043
(415)-604-6270
PLANETARY MAPS
The USGS address for maps of the planets is:
U.S. Geological Survey,
Distribution Branch,
Box 25286, Federal Center, Bldg. 41
Denver, CO 80225
Maps cost $2.40 to $3.10 per sheet (a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets).
The best global maps of Mars based on Viking images are 1:15,000,000
scale in 3 sheets. These maps are:
I-1535 (2 sheets only) - relief, albedo, names
I-1535
I-1618 (3 sheets) - relief, names
I-2030 (3 sheets) - relief, topographic contours
I-1802-A,B,C (3 sheets) - geology
There are many other maps as well: 30 sheets at 1:5,000,000 scale in
relief, albedo, geology, photomosaic forms (not all 30 sheets available
in all formats); 140 sheets at 1:2,000,000 scale as photomosaics of the
whole planet, about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1:500,000 scale
in photomosaic format, and lots of special sheets.
Then there are maps of Mercury, Venus, the Moon, the four Galilean
Satellites, six moons of Saturn and five of Uranus. [Phil Stooke
(stooke@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca), the author of this item, has offered to
respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar
and planetary maps.]
COMETARY ORBIT DATA
The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and the Minor Planet
Center announce the sixth edition of the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits in
IAU Circular 4935. The catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent
all known comets through November 1989 and is 96 pages long.
Non-subscribers to the Circulars may purchase the catalogue for $15.00
while the cost to subscribers is $7.50. The basic catalogue in ASCII
along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate
ephemerides is available on MS-DOS 5.25-inch 2S2D diskette at a cost of
$75.00 (the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor). The catalogue
alone is also available by e-mail for $37.50 or on magnetic tape for
$300.00.
Except for the printed version of the catalogue, the various magnetic
media or e-mail forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion
non-subscribers. It is possible that these forms of the catalogue may
not be available to non-subscribers or that their prices may be more
expensive than those given. Mail requests for specific information and
orders to:
Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
Cambridge, MA 02138, USA
NEXT: FAQ #4/15 - Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
after prepro Subject Space FAQ 0315 Data Sources
From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Expires 6 May 1993 195535 GMT
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Lines 463
Archivename spacedata
Lastmodified Date 930401 143907
ONLINE AND OTHER SOURCES OF IMAGES DATA ETC
INTRODUCTION
A wide variety of images data catalogs information releases and
other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net
A few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access while the
remainder support some form of file transfer Many sites are listed as
providing anonymous FTP This refers to the File Transfer Protocol on
the Internet Sites not connected to the Internet cannot use FTP
directly but there are a few automated FTP servers which operates via
email Send mail containing only the word HELP to ftpmaildecwrldeccom
or bitftppuccprincetonedu and the servers will send you instructions
on how to make requests
The sources with the broadest selection of material are the NASA Ames
SPACE archive and the National Space Science Data Center
Dont even ask for images to be posted to the net The data volume is
huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it
VIEWING IMAGES
The possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly
large and I wont attempt to cover common formats GIF etc here To
read PDS and VICAR and many other formats on Unix systems running X
use XV 211 available by anonymous FTP from exportlcsmitedu
1824012 in contribxv211tarZ and the other standard X11 FTP
sites
The FAQ for the Usenet group altbinariespictures discusses image
formats and how to get image viewing software A copy of this document
is available by anonymous FTP from the Usenet FAQ archives at
pitmanagermitedu 1872158 in directory
pubusenetaltbinariespictures
ONLINE ARCHIVES
NASA AMES
Extensive archives are maintained at NASA Ames and are available via
anonymous FTP or an email server These archives include many images and
a wide variety of documents including this FAQ list NASA press
releases shuttle launch advisories and mission status reports Please
note that these are NOT maintained on an official basis
FTP users should connect to amesarcnasagov 128102183 and look in
pubSPACE pubSPACEIndex contains a listing of files available in the
archive the index is about 200K by itself
To access the archives by email send a letter to
archiveserveramesarcnasagov or amesarchiveserver In the
subject of your letter or in the body use commands like
send SPACE Index
send SPACE SHUTTLEss012391
The capitalization of the subdirectory names is important All are in
caps Only text files are handled by the email server at present use
one of the FTP email servers described in the introduction to this
section for images or programs
The Magellan Venus and Voyager Jupiter Saturn and Uranus CDROM image
disks have been put online in the CDROM and CDROM2 directories The
disks will be rotated on a weekly basis Thousands of images are
available in these collections
The GIF directory contains images in GIF format The VICAR directory
contains Magellan images in VICAR format these are also available in
the GIF directory A PC program capable of displaying these files is
found in the IMDISP directory see the item VIEWING IMAGES below
The NASA media guide describes the various NASA centers and how to
contact their public affairs officers this may be useful when pursuing
specific information Its in MISCmediaguide
Any problems with the archive server should be reported to Peter Yee
yeeamesarcnasagov
NASA ASTROPHYSICS DATA SYSTEM
The ADS is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and
provides uniform access to groundbased and spacebased astronomy data
from NASA data centers across the country It currently has over 140
data catalogs of radio infrared optical UV and Xray data which can
be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog The ADS
also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results In addition
ADS has a Beta version of an Abstracts Service which allows users to
query over 125000 abstracts of astronomy papers since 1975 by authors
keywords title words or abstract text words
ADS use requires direct Internet access For more info and to sign up to
become a user email adscuadscoloraduedu The Users Guide and
QuickStart Guide are available by anonymous FTP to saoftpharvardedu
in directory pubadsADS_User_Guide PostScript files
Contact Carolyn Stern Grant sterncfaharvardedu
NASA JET PROPULSION LAB MISSION INFORMATION AND IMAGES
pubinfojplnasagov 12814962 is an anonymous FTP site operated by
the JPL Public Information Office containing news releases status
reports fact sheets images and other data on JPL missions It may
also be reached by modem at 8183541333 no parity 8 data bits 1
stop bit
Contact newsdeskjplpostjplnasagov or phone 8183547170
NASA LANGLEY TECHNICAL REPORTS
techreportslarcnasagov is an anonymous FTP site offering technical
reports To get started cd to directory pubtechreportslarc92 and
retrieve files README and abstracts92 Most files are compressed
PostScript The reports are also in a WAIS database with the following
description
source
version 3
ipname techreportslarcnasagov
tcpport 210
databasename nasalarcabs
cost 000
costunit free
maintainer MLNelsonLaRCNASAGOV
description NASA Langley Research Center Technical Reports
Contact tradmintechreportslarcnasagov
NASA SPACELINK
SpaceLink is an online service located at Marshall Space Flight Center
in Huntsville Alabama The system is specifically designed for
teachers The data base is arranged to provide easy access to current
and historical information on NASA aeronautics space research and
technology transfer information Also included are suggested classroom
activities that incorporate information on NASA projects to teach a
number of scientific principles Unlike bulletin board systems NASA
Spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers However it
does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments
for NASA which may be answered by regular mail Messages are answered
electronically even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by
mail Messages are generally handled the next working day except during
missions when turnaround times increase The mail system is closedloop
between the user and NASA
SpaceLink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs
useful for science educators as well as space graphics and GIF images
from NASAs planetary probes and the Hubble Telescope
You can dial in at 2058950028 300120024009600V32 baud 8
bits no parity 1 stop bit or telnet to spacelinkmsfcnasagov
12815813250 also known as xslmsfcnasagov if youre on the
Internet Anonymous FTP capability password guest is now available
Most of this information is also available from the Ames server in
directory SPACELINK
NATIONAL SPACE SCIENCE DATA CENTER NSSDC
The National Space Science Data Center is the official clearinghouse for
NASA data The data catalog not the data itself is available online
Internet users can telnet to nssdcagsfcnasagov 1281833623 and
log in as NODIS no password You can also get the catalog by sending
email to requestnssdcgsfcnasagov
You can also dial in at 3012869000 300 1200 or 2400 baud 8 bits
no parity one stop At the Enter Number prompt enter MD and
carriage return When the system responds Call Complete enter a few
more carriage returns to get the Username and log in as NODIS no
password
The system is menudriven topics available as of 393 are
1 Master Directory NASA Global Change
2 Personnel Information Management System
3 Nimbus7 GRID TOMS Data
4 Interplanetary Medium Data OMNI
5 Request data andor information from NSSDC
6 Geophysical Models
7 CANOPUS Newsletter
8 International Ultraviolet Explorer Data Request
9 CZCS Browse and Order Utility
10 Astronomical Data Center ADC
11 STEP Bulletin Board Service
12 Standards and Technology Information System
13 Planetary Science Magellan Project Information
14 Other Online Data Services at NSSDC
15 CDROMS Available at NSSDC
For users with Internet access datasets are made available via
anonymous FTP once you select the desired datasets from the online
catalog For other users data may be ordered on CDROM and in other
formats Among the many types of data available are Voyager Magellan
and other planetary images Earth observation data and star catalogs
Viewers for Macintosh and IBM systems are also available As an example
of the cost an 8 CD set of Voyager images is 75 Data may ordered
online by email or by physical mail The postal address is
National Space Science Data Center
Request Coordination Office
Goddard Space Flight Center
Code 633
Greenbelt MD 20771
Telephone 301 2866695
Email address requestnssdcagsfcnasagov
SPACE TELESCOPE SCIENCE INSTITUTE ELECTRONIC INFORMATION SERVICE
stsciedu 13016712 has a large amount of information about the
Hubble Space Telescope available by anonymous FTP such as status
reports and newsletters in addition to material oriented towards HST
observers and proposers Get the top level README file to begin with
Contact Pete Reppert reppertstsciedu or Chris ODea
odeastsciedu
STARCAT
The Space Telescope European Coordination Facility at ESOGarching
provides online access to a huge astronomical database featuring
Observation log files of several satellitestelescopes
IUEIRASHSTNTT
Spectra and images IUE HST
Most of the astronomical catalogues SAO HR NGC PPM IRAS
Veron GSC and many others more than 50 in a very convenient
way give centerradiuskind of objects and you get the
corresponding files
Log on as ``starcat no password on node stesishqesoorg
1341718100 or on STESIS DECnet The files created can be
retreived by FTP Contact Benoit Pirenne bpirenneesoorg phone 49
89 320 06 433 at STECF
ASTRONOMICAL DATABASES
The full SAO stellar database is NOT available online probably due to
the 40 MB size It may be ordered on magnetic tape from the NSSDC A
subset containing position and magnitude only is available by FTP see
Astronomy Programs below
nicfunetfi 1282146100 has a large collection of astronomical
programs for many types of computers databases of stars and deep sky
objects and general astronomy information in directory pubastro This
site is mainly for European users but overseas connections are
possible
The Ames archives contain a database of 8436 galaxies including name
RA declination magnitude and radial velocity in MISCgalaxydat
Supplied by Wayne Hayes waynecsriutorontoca
iris1ucisdalca 12917318107 has a number of GIFs from Voyager
Hubble and other sources available by anonymous FTP in pubgif most of
this data is also in SPACEGIF on the Ames server Please restrict
access to 5pm 8am Atlantic time
pomonaclaremontedu has the Yale Bright Star catalog for anonymous FTP
in directory [YALE_BSC] Contact James Dishaw
jdishawhmcvaxclaremontedu
The Hubble Guide Star catalog is available on CDROM for the Mac and PC
for 4995 US catalog ST101
Astronomical Society of the Pacific
390 Ashton Ave
San Francisco CA 94112
Phone 415 3372624 9 AM 3 PM Pacific Time
FAX 415 3375205
For German and possibly other European readers Jost Jahn has a
service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost
About 3040 catalogs are available for DM 68disk Several floppy disk
formats are available Because of the expense of receiving email on his
system he asks that you contact him by physical mail
Jost Jahn
Neustaedter Strasse 11
W3123 Bodenteich
GERMANY
Phone FRG58243197
ASTRONOMY PROGRAMS
Various astronomyrelated programs and databases posted to the net in
the past are archived for anonymous FTP at multiple sites including
ftpuunet 1373919 Also see the ASTROFTP list posted to sciastro
monthly which is more complete than this list
AstonomicalSpacerelated sources of interest in compsourcesunix
Volume 8 phoon moon phase and date routines
Volume 1213 starchart starchart program Yale Star data
Volume 15 moontool shows moon phase picture on Suns
Volume 16 sao reduced SAO catalog
AstonomicalSpacerelated sources of interest in compsourcesmisc
Volume 8 moon another moon phase program
Volume 11 starchart starchart program version 32
Volume 11 n3emoorbit orbit track earth satellites
Volume 12 starchart2 starchart program update to version 321
Volume 13 jupmoons plotter for Jupiters major moons [in perl]
Volume 13 lunisolar lunisolar not sure what this does
Volume 14 ephem421 astronomical ephemeris v421
Volume 14 n3emoorbit patch to orbit 37
Volume 18 planet planet generation simulator
Elwood Downey e_downeytashaccacrrockwellcom the author of
ephem has offered to mail copies to people who cant find it on one
of the archives
XSAT an X Window System based satellite tracking program is
available by anonymous FTP from exportlcsmitedu 1824012 in
contribxsat10tarZ Contact Dave Curry davyecnpurdueedu
for more information
Xsky a computerized sky atlas for the X Window System is available for
anonymous FTP on arizonaedu in the directory [SOFTWAREUNIXXSKY] as
xskytarz Contact Terry R Friedrichsen terryvenussunquestcom for
more information
The Variable Stars Analysis Software Archive is available via
anonymous FTP from kaurivuwacnz 130195113 in directory
pubastrophys This is intended for specialists in this field and they
would appreciate people from outside New Zealand confining their FTP
access to the astrophys directory as they pay a significant amount for
Internet access Contents are relatively sparse at present due to the
youth of the archive contributions are encouraged Contact the archive
administrator Timothy Banks bankstkaurivuwacnz for more
information
The IDL Astronomy Users Library is available by anonymous FTP from
idlastrogsfcnasagov 1281835782 This is a central repository for
general purpose astronomy procedures written in IDL a commercial image
processing plotting and programming language Contact Wayne Landsman
landsmanstarsgsfcnasagov for more information
ORBITAL ELEMENT SETS
The most recent orbital elements from the NASA Prediction Bulletins are
carried on the Celestial BBS 5134270674 Documentation and tracking
software are also available on this system The Celestial BBS may be
accessed 24 hoursday at 300 1200 or 2400 baud using 8 data bits 1
stop bit no parity
Orbital element sets are available via anonymous FTP from the
following sites
archiveafitafmil 12992166 NASATVROShuttle
directory pubspace
ftpfunetfi 1282146100 NASATVROMolczanCelBBS
directory pubastropcsatel Shuttle
kilroyjplnasagov 1281491165 NASAMolczan
directory pubspace
SPACE DIGEST ARCHIVES
Copies of back issues of Space Digest are archived on
LISTSERVUGABITNET Send mail containing the message INDEX SPACE to
get an index of files send it the message GET filename filetype to
get a particular file
LANDSAT AND NASA PHOTOS
You can get blackandwhite 11M prints negatives or positives for
10 18 12 respectively for any Landsat data more than 2 years old
from EDC Eros Earth Resources Orbiting Satellite Data Center Call
them at 6055946511 You get 80 meter resolution from the MSS
scanner 135x180 kilometers on a picture 135x180 mm in size I think you
have to select one band from green red near IR second near IR but
Im not sure Digitial data is also available at higher prices
Transparencies of all NASA photos available to the public can be
borrowed from the NASA photo archive you can have copies or prints
made
NASA AudioVisual Facility
918 North Rengstorff Ave
Mountain View CA 94043
4156046270
PLANETARY MAPS
The USGS address for maps of the planets is
US Geological Survey
Distribution Branch
Box 25286 Federal Center Bldg 41
Denver CO 80225
Maps cost 240 to 310 per sheet a few come in sets of 2 or 3 sheets
The best global maps of Mars based on Viking images are 115000000
scale in 3 sheets These maps are
I1535 2 sheets only relief albedo names
I1535
I1618 3 sheets relief names
I2030 3 sheets relief topographic contours
I1802ABC 3 sheets geology
There are many other maps as well 30 sheets at 15000000 scale in
relief albedo geology photomosaic forms not all 30 sheets available
in all formats 140 sheets at 12000000 scale as photomosaics of the
whole planet about 100 sheets of interesting sites at 1500000 scale
in photomosaic format and lots of special sheets
Then there are maps of Mercury Venus the Moon the four Galilean
Satellites six moons of Saturn and five of Uranus [Phil Stooke
stookevaxrsscluwoca the author of this item has offered to
respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar
and planetary maps]
COMETARY ORBIT DATA
The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams and the Minor Planet
Center announce the sixth edition of the Catalogue of Cometary Orbits in
IAU Circular 4935 The catalogue contains 1292 entries which represent
all known comets through November 1989 and is 96 pages long
Nonsubscribers to the Circulars may purchase the catalogue for 1500
while the cost to subscribers is 750 The basic catalogue in ASCII
along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate
ephemerides is available on MSDOS 525inch 2S2D diskette at a cost of
7500 the program requires an 8087 math coprocessor The catalogue
alone is also available by email for 3750 or on magnetic tape for
30000
Except for the printed version of the catalogue the various magnetic
media or email forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion
nonsubscribers It is possible that these forms of the catalogue may
not be available to nonsubscribers or that their prices may be more
expensive than those given Mail requests for specific information and
orders to
Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory
Cambridge MA 02138 USA
NEXT FAQ 415 Performing calculations and interpreting data formats
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Feminism and Islam, again
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr14.030334.8650@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> In article <1993Apr11.145519.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>>
>>There's a way around that via the hadith, which state that silence is
>>taken to mean "yes" and that women may not speak before a judge, who
>>must conduct the marriage.
>
> Actaully, that's a false hadith, because it contradicts verses in the
> Quran, that says women may testify- speak before a judge.
>
> Hadiths are declared false when they contradict the Quran. Hadiths
> weren't written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet,
> and so may contain errors.
So the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is
if it contradicts the Quran? What if it relates to something
that isn't explicitly spelled out in the Quran?
Also, the Quran wasn't written down during the life of Muhammed
either. It wasn't long after, but 20 years or so is still long
enough to shift a few verses around.
Karl
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope | "All you touch and all you see |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition - | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall." --Duke | --Pink Floyd |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro Subject Re Feminism and Islam again
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 30
In article 1993Apr140303348650ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
In article 1993Apr111455191eaglewesleyanedu kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu writes
Theres a way around that via the hadith which state that silence is
taken to mean yes and that women may not speak before a judge who
must conduct the marriage
Actaully thats a false hadith because it contradicts verses in the
Quran that says women may testify speak before a judge
Hadiths are declared false when they contradict the Quran Hadiths
werent written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet
and so may contain errors
So the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is
if it contradicts the Quran What if it relates to something
that isnt explicitly spelled out in the Quran
Also the Quran wasnt written down during the life of Muhammed
either It wasnt long after but 20 years or so is still long
enough to shift a few verses around
Karl
Lastly I come to China in the hope All you touch and all you see
of fulfilling a lifelong ambition Is all your life will ever be
dropping acid on the Great Wall Duke Pink Floyd
A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Keywords: food
Lines: 25
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
In article <C50z77.EE6@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jelson@rcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (John Elson) writes:
>Has anyone ever heard of a food product called "Space Food Sticks?" This
>was apparently created/marketed around the time of the lunar expeditions, along
>with "Tang" and other dehydrated foods. I have spoken with several people
>who have eaten these before, and they described them as a dehydrated candy.
>Any information would be greatly appreciated.
A freeze dried Tootsie Roll (tm). The actual taste sensation was like nothing
you will ever willingly experience. The amazing thing was that we ate a second
one, and a third and ....
I doubt that they actually flew on missions, as I'm certain they did "bad
things" to the gastrointestinal tract. Compared to Space Food Sticks, Tang was
a gastronomic contribution to mankind.
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |God gave us weather so we wouldn't complain
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |about other things.
PADI DM-54909 |
PS. I don't think Tang flew, either. Although it was developed under contract.
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re space food sticks
Keywords food
Lines 25
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
In article jelsonrcnextcsouiucedu John Elson writes
Has anyone ever heard of a food product called Space Food Sticks This
was apparently createdmarketed around the time of the lunar expeditions along
with Tang and other dehydrated foods I have spoken with several people
who have eaten these before and they described them as a dehydrated candy
Any information would be greatly appreciated
A freeze dried Tootsie Roll tm The actual taste sensation was like nothing
you will ever willingly experience The amazing thing was that we ate a second
one and a third and
I doubt that they actually flew on missions as Im certain they did bad
things to the gastrointestinal tract Compared to Space Food Sticks Tang was
a gastronomic contribution to mankind
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home God gave us weather so we wouldnt complain
pyronskndivdsegticom about other things
PADI DM54909
PS I dont think Tang flew either Although it was developed under contract
preprocess doc From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1993Apr6.041343.24997
Organization: Summit NJ
Lines: 39
student writes:
>Somewhere, roger colin shouse writes about "radical gay dogma." Somewhere else
>he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesn't know.
>There are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth-
>reich-sophistique shit in his postings. Maybe more. In fact I'm not sure
>the instances could be counted, because they reproduce like a virus the more
>you consider his words.
> My question is this: what is the best response to weasels like
>shouse and Stan Krieger? Possibilities:
> (a) study them dispassionately and figure out how they work, then
>(1) remember what you've learned so as to combat them when they or their clones
>get into office
>(2) contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward
> (b) learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder
This posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting.
The point has been raised and has been answered. Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").
There is really nothing else to discuss. Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
control their race but they can control their behavior).
What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?
Nobody, including BSA, is denying anybody the right to live and/or
worship as they please or don't please, but it doesn't mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based.
--
Stan Krieger All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
after prepro From stankcbnewslcbattcom Stan Krieger
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
ArticleID cbnewsl1993Apr604134324997
Organization Summit NJ
Lines 39
student writes
Somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma Somewhere else
he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesnt know
There are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth
reichsophistique shit in his postings Maybe more In fact Im not sure
the instances could be counted because they reproduce like a virus the more
you consider his words
My question is this what is the best response to weasels like
shouse and Stan Krieger Possibilities
a study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then
1 remember what youve learned so as to combat them when they or their clones
get into office
2 contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward
b learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder
This posting is totally uncalled for in recscouting
The point has been raised and has been answered Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue
specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath specifically the promise to live morally straight
There is really nothing else to discuss Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because its like comparing apples to oranges ie people cant
control their race but they can control their behavior
What else is there to possibly discuss on recscouting on this issue
Nobody including BSA is denying anybody the right to live andor
worship as they please or dont please but it doesnt mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized positive religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based
Stan Krieger All opinions advice or suggestions even
UNIX System Laboratories if related to my employment are my own
Summit NJ
smkuslcom
preprocess doc From: gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (George F. Krumins)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 23
jbreed@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed) writes:
>In article <C5ros0.uy@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
>|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
>|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.
It's my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the
growing distance of Pluto and Charon from the Sun, due to it's
elliptical orbit. It is not due to shadowing effects.
>Where does the shadow come from? There's nothing close enough to block
>sunlight from hitting them. I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
>our view of them either. What am I missing?
Pluto can shadow Charon, and vice-versa.
George Krumins
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| George Krumins |
| gfk39017@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu |
| Pufferfish Observatory |
after prepro From gfk39017uxacsouiucedu George F Krumins
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 23
jbreeddoinkb23bingrcom James B Reed writes
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
[Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible
Its my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the
growing distance of Pluto and Charon from the Sun due to its
elliptical orbit It is not due to shadowing effects
Where does the shadow come from Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either What am I missing
Pluto can shadow Charon and viceversa
George Krumins
George Krumins
gfk39017uxacsouiucedu
Pufferfish Observatory
preprocess doc From: timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu (Bake Timmons)
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines: 29
Robert Knowles writes:
>>
>>My my, there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands. :)
>>
>>OK, first I apologize. I didn't bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
>>imprecise flame. That was inexcusable.
>>
>How about the nickname Bake "Flamethrower" Timmons?
Sure, but Robert "Koresh-Fetesh" (sic) Knowles seems good, too. :)
>
>You weren't at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance, were you?
>
>Remember, Koresh "dried" for your sins.
>
>And pass that beef jerky. Umm Umm.
Though I wasn't there, at least I can rely on you now to keep me posted on what
what he's doing.
Have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and David Koresh?
--
Bake Timmons, III
-- "...there's nothing higher, stronger, more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory..." -- Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov (Dostoevsky)
after prepro From timmbakemclucsbedu Bake Timmons
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
Lines 29
Robert Knowles writes
My my there _are_ a few atheists with time on their hands
OK first I apologize I didnt bother reading the FAQ first and so fired an
imprecise flame That was inexcusable
How about the nickname Bake Flamethrower Timmons
Sure but Robert KoreshFetesh sic Knowles seems good too
You werent at the Koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you
Remember Koresh dried for your sins
And pass that beef jerky Umm Umm
Though I wasnt there at least I can rely on you now to keep me posted on what
what hes doing
Have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and David Koresh
Bake Timmons III
theres nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life
than some good memory Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov Dostoevsky
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Sixty-two thousand (was Re: How many read sci.space?)
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr15.131954.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>Reid, alas, gives us no measure of the "power/influence" of readers...
>Sorry, Mark.
I think I can. Largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group
writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened:
1. NASA reprogrammed funds to keep NASP alive in 1991.
2. Efforts to kill DC-X and the SSRT progam where twice twarted
(Feb. and June of last year).
3. Gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him.
This may not be what Mark was thinking of but it shows that the
readers of sci.space DO have power and influence.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Sixtytwo thousand was Re How many read scispace
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 23
In article 1993Apr151319541fnalffnalgov higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey writes
Reid alas gives us no measure of the powerinfluence of readers
Sorry Mark
I think I can Largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group
writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened
1 NASA reprogrammed funds to keep NASP alive in 1991
2 Efforts to kill DCX and the SSRT progam where twice twarted
Feb and June of last year
3 Gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him
This may not be what Mark was thinking of but it shows that the
readers of scispace DO have power and influence
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
58 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: army in space
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 23
ktj@beach.cis.ufl.edu (kerry todd johnson) writes:
> Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
> with space? After I graduate, I will have a commitment to serve in the Army,
> and I would like to spend it in a space-related field. I saw a post a long
> time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
> its Army counter-part. Any more info on that would be appreciated. I'm
> looking for things like: do I branch Intelligence, or Signal, or other? To
> whom do I voice my interest in space? What qualifications are necessary?
> Etc, etc. BTW, my major is computer science engineering.
Kerry-- I'm guessing a little at this, because it's been a few years
since I saw the info, but you will probably want to look at Air Defense
Artillery as a specialty, or possibly Signals. The kind of thing you're
looking for is SDI-type assignments, but it'll be pretty prosaic stuff.
Things like hard-kill ATBM missiles, some of the COBRA rigs -- that kind
of thing.
Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look, though.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael - dante@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
after prepro From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re army in space
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 23
ktjbeachcisufledu kerry todd johnson writes
Is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the Army that deal
with space After I graduate I will have a commitment to serve in the Army
and I would like to spend it in a spacerelated field I saw a post a long
time ago about the Air Force Space Command which made a fleeting reference to
its Army counterpart Any more info on that would be appreciated Im
looking for things like do I branch Intelligence or Signal or other To
whom do I voice my interest in space What qualifications are necessary
Etc etc BTW my major is computer science engineering
Kerry Im guessing a little at this because its been a few years
since I saw the info but you will probably want to look at Air Defense
Artillery as a specialty or possibly Signals The kind of thing youre
looking for is SDItype assignments but itll be pretty prosaic stuff
Things like hardkill ATBM missiles some of the COBRA rigs that kind
of thing
Hope that gives you some ideas on where to look though
Charlie Prael danteshakalacom
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Which Gehrels? (was Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <1993Apr21.170817.15845@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>> > > Also, peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were:
>
> Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
> me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
> has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
> Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
> Same person?
I would guess not. Dr. Neil Gehrels of CGRO is the son of Dr. Tom
Gehrels of the University of Arizona. Since he's long had research
interests in asteroids and other solar-system astronomy, Tom is the
one more likely to have discovered a comet (and thus had his name
attached to it).
Tom Gehrels is a leader in the Spacewatch project, which has recently
increased mankind's discovery rate on near-Earth asteroids (they're
finding a couple every month). For much more on this interesting guy,
read his autobiography, *On a Glassy Sea*.
"Do you know the asteroids, Mr.Kemp?... Bill Higgins
Hundreds of thousands of them. All
wandering around the Sun in strange Fermilab
orbits. Some never named, never
charted. The orphans of the Solar higgins@fnal.fnal.gov
System, Mr. Kemp."
higgins@fnal.bitnet
"And you want to become a father."
--*Moon Zero Two* SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Which Gehrels was Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article 1993Apr2117081715845sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Also peri[jove]s of Gehrels3 were
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
I would guess not Dr Neil Gehrels of CGRO is the son of Dr Tom
Gehrels of the University of Arizona Since hes long had research
interests in asteroids and other solarsystem astronomy Tom is the
one more likely to have discovered a comet and thus had his name
attached to it
Tom Gehrels is a leader in the Spacewatch project which has recently
increased mankinds discovery rate on nearEarth asteroids theyre
finding a couple every month For much more on this interesting guy
read his autobiography On a Glassy Sea
Do you know the asteroids MrKemp Bill Higgins
Hundreds of thousands of them All
wandering around the Sun in strange Fermilab
orbits Some never named never
charted The orphans of the Solar higginsfnalfnalgov
System Mr Kemp
higginsfnalbitnet
And you want to become a father
Moon Zero Two SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS
preprocess doc From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
In-Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.uucp's message of Sun, 18 Apr 1993 09:10:51 GMT
Originator: nickh@SNOW.FOX.CS.CMU.EDU
Nntp-Posting-Host: snow.fox.cs.cmu.edu
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
<1993Apr7.124724.22534@yang.earlham.edu> <dxb105.734495289@virgo>
<1993Apr12.161742.22647@yang.earlham.edu>
<93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
<1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>
Lines: 35
In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
In article <93107.144339SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>This is turning into 'what's a moonbase good for', and I ought not
>to post when I've a hundred some odd posts to go, but I would
>think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic.
>
>Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
>larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry, eventually,
>they will simply be able to afford more stuff.
If I read you right, you're saying in essence that, with a larger
economy, nations will have more discretionary funds to *waste* on a
lunar facility. That was certainly partially the case with Apollo,
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
military, scientific, or commercial reason for being rather than
just a "we have the money, why not?" approach.
Ah, but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon. It's not like they'd be using $1000 (1000R?) bills
to fuel their moon-dozers. The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged. It's a way of funding
high-tech research, just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research, under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country, or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research, under the pretense that it's good for pan-European
cooperation.
Now maybe you think that government-funded research is a waste of
money (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do), but it does count as
investment spending, which does boost the economy (and just look at
the size of that multiplier :->).
Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
after prepro From nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
InReplyTo garyke4zvuucps message of Sun 18 Apr 1993 091051 GMT
Originator nickhSNOWFOXCSCMUEDU
NntpPostingHost snowfoxcscmuedu
Organization School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University
1993Apr712472422534yangearlhamedu
1993Apr1216174222647yangearlhamedu
93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA
1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp
Lines 35
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman writes
In article 93107144339SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon writes
This is turning into whats a moonbase good for and I ought not
to post when Ive a hundred some odd posts to go but I would
think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic
Since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much
larger GNP than they would _without_ space industry eventually
they will simply be able to afford more stuff
If I read you right youre saying in essence that with a larger
economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a
lunar facility That was certainly partially the case with Apollo
but real Lunar colonies will probably require a continuing
military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than
just a we have the money why not approach
Ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not
wasted on the moon Its not like theyd be using 1000 1000R bills
to fuel their moondozers The money to fund a lunar base would be
spent in the country to which the base belonged Its a way of funding
hightech research just like DARPA was a good excuse to fund various
fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the
defense of the country or like ESPRIT is a good excuse for the EC to
fund research under the pretense that its good for panEuropean
cooperation
Now maybe you think that governmentfunded research is a waste of
money in fact Im pretty sure you do but it does count as
investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at
the size of that multiplier
Nick Haines nickhcmuedu
preprocess doc From: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: oit.gatech.edu
In article <1993Apr21.024423.29182@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> wdwells@nyx.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) writes:
>I hear <insert favorite rumor here> that it will supposedly coincide
>with the Atlanta Olympics.
Even worse, the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard. Considering the caliber of people running this city,
there's no telling what we're going to have leering down at us from orbit.
--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!matthew
Internet: matthew@phantom.gatech.edu
after prepro From matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization The Dorsai Grey Captains
Lines 13
NNTPPostingHost oitgatechedu
In article 1993Apr2102442329182mnemosynecsduedu wdwellsnyxcsduedu David Fuzzy Wells writes
I hear that it will supposedly coincide
with the Atlanta Olympics
Even worse the city of Atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this
orbiting billboard Considering the caliber of people running this city
theres no telling what were going to have leering down at us from orbit
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta Georgia 30332
uucp decvaxhplabsncarpurduerutgersgatechprismmatthew
Internet matthewphantomgatechedu
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Portuguese Launch Complex (was:*Doppelganger*)
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
> Portugese launch complex were *wonderful
Portuguese launch complex??? Gosh.... Polish are for American in the
same way as Portuguese are for Brazilians (I am from Brazil). There is
a joke about the Portuguese Space Agency that wanted to send a
Portuguese astronaut to the surface of the Sun (if there is such a thing).
How did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the
Sun??? Simple... their astronauts travelled during the night...
C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV
C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Portuguese Launch Complex wasDoppelganger
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 14
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
Portugese launch complex were wonderful
Portuguese launch complex Gosh Polish are for American in the
same way as Portuguese are for Brazilians I am from Brazil There is
a joke about the Portuguese Space Agency that wanted to send a
Portuguese astronaut to the surface of the Sun if there is such a thing
How did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the
Sun Simple their astronauts travelled during the night
COEGALONLARCNASAGOV
COEgalonlarcnasagov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 07/15 - Astronomical Mnemonics
Supersedes: <mnemonics_730956500@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 95
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:57:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/mnemonics
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:14 $
ASTRONOMICAL MNEMONICS (This is the last FAQ section posted to sci.astro)
Gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sci.astro.
Spectral classification sequence: O B A F G K M R N S
Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now, Sweetheart. (a classic)
O'Dell's Big Astronomical Fiasco Gonna Kill Me Right Now Surely
Obese Balding Astronomy Found Guilty; Killed Many Reluctant
Nonscience Students.
Octopus Brains, A Favorite Gastronomical Kitchen Menu,
Requires No Sauce
Odd Ball Astronomers Find Generally Kooky Mnemonics
Really Nifty Stuff
Oh Big And Ferocious Gorilla, Kill My Roomate Next Saturday
Oh Boy, A Flash! Godzilla Kills Mothra! Really Not Surprising!
Oh Boy, An F Grade Kills Me
On Bad Afternoons Fermented Grapes Keep Mrs. Richard Nixon Smiling
On, Backward Astronomer, Forget Geocentricity; Kepler's Motions
Reveal Nature's Simplicity
Our Bad Astronomy Faculty Gets Killed Monday
Oven Baked Ants, Fried Gently, Kept Moist, Retain Natural Succulence
Overseas Broadcast: A Flash! Godzilla kills Mothra!
(Rodan Named Successor)
Overweight Boys and Fat Girls Keep Munching
Only Bored Astronomers Find Gratification Knowing Mnemonics
Oh Bloody Astronomy! F Grades Kill Me
Order of the planets:
Sun
Mercury
Venus
Earth (Terra)
Mars
(Asteroids)
Jupiter
Saturn
Uranus
Neptune
Pluto
My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas
Mother Very Thoughtfully Made A Jelly Sandwich Under No Protest
My Very Erotic Mate Joyfully Satisfies Unusual Needs Passionately
Men Very Easily Make Jugs Serve Useful Nocturnal Purposes
Man Very Early Made A Jug Serve Useful Noble Purposes
My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
My Very Eager Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
My Very Exhausted Mother hAs Just Swept Up a Planetary Nebula
Most Voters Earn Money Just Showing Up Near Polls
My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizza-pies
Many Viscious Elephants Made John, Suzy and Uncle Need Protection
Solar Mass Very Easily Makes All Jupiter's Satellites Undergo
Numerous Perturbations.
Mein Vater erklaert mir jeden Sonntag unsere niedlichen Planeten
(My Father explains to me every Sunday our nine planets)
Man verachte einen Menschen in seinem Unglueck nie -- Punkt
(Never scorn/despise a person in his misfortune/bad luck/misery
-- period!)
Colors of the spectrum: Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet
ROY G. BIV (pronounce as a man's name)
Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain
Read Out Your Good Book In Verse
Galilean Satellite of Jupiter: Io Europa Ganymede Callisto
I Expect God Cries
I Eat Green Cheese
I Embarrass Good Christians
Ich erschrecke all guten Christen
(I scare all good Christians)
Saturnian Satellites
MET DR THIP
Miriam's Enchiladas Taste Divine Recently. Tell Her I'm Proud.
(Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, Rhea, Titan, Hyperion,
Iapetus, Phoebe)
Uranian Satellites:
MAUTO
Mispronunciations Afflict Uranus Too Often
My Angel Uriel Takes Opium
(Miranda, Ariel, Umbriel, Titania, Oberon)
NOTE: the remaining FAQ sections do not appear in sci.astro, as they cover
material of relevance only to sci.space.
NEXT: FAQ #8/15 - Contacting NASA, ESA, and other space agencies/companies
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0715 Astronomical Mnemonics
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 95
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 195755 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spacemnemonics
Lastmodified Date 930401 143914
ASTRONOMICAL MNEMONICS This is the last FAQ section posted to sciastro
Gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sciastro
Spectral classification sequence O B A F G K M R N S
Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me Right Now Sweetheart a classic
ODells Big Astronomical Fiasco Gonna Kill Me Right Now Surely
Obese Balding Astronomy Found Guilty Killed Many Reluctant
Nonscience Students
Octopus Brains A Favorite Gastronomical Kitchen Menu
Requires No Sauce
Odd Ball Astronomers Find Generally Kooky Mnemonics
Really Nifty Stuff
Oh Big And Ferocious Gorilla Kill My Roomate Next Saturday
Oh Boy A Flash Godzilla Kills Mothra Really Not Surprising
Oh Boy An F Grade Kills Me
On Bad Afternoons Fermented Grapes Keep Mrs Richard Nixon Smiling
On Backward Astronomer Forget Geocentricity Keplers Motions
Reveal Natures Simplicity
Our Bad Astronomy Faculty Gets Killed Monday
Oven Baked Ants Fried Gently Kept Moist Retain Natural Succulence
Overseas Broadcast A Flash Godzilla kills Mothra
Rodan Named Successor
Overweight Boys and Fat Girls Keep Munching
Only Bored Astronomers Find Gratification Knowing Mnemonics
Oh Bloody Astronomy F Grades Kill Me
Order of the planets
Sun
Mercury
Venus
Earth Terra
Mars
Asteroids
Jupiter
Saturn
Uranus
Neptune
Pluto
My Very Earnest Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas
Mother Very Thoughtfully Made A Jelly Sandwich Under No Protest
My Very Erotic Mate Joyfully Satisfies Unusual Needs Passionately
Men Very Easily Make Jugs Serve Useful Nocturnal Purposes
Man Very Early Made A Jug Serve Useful Noble Purposes
My Very Educated Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
My Very Eager Mother Just Showed Us Nine Planets
My Very Exhausted Mother hAs Just Swept Up a Planetary Nebula
Most Voters Earn Money Just Showing Up Near Polls
My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzapies
Many Viscious Elephants Made John Suzy and Uncle Need Protection
Solar Mass Very Easily Makes All Jupiters Satellites Undergo
Numerous Perturbations
Mein Vater erklaert mir jeden Sonntag unsere niedlichen Planeten
My Father explains to me every Sunday our nine planets
Man verachte einen Menschen in seinem Unglueck nie Punkt
Never scorndespise a person in his misfortunebad luckmisery
period
Colors of the spectrum Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet
ROY G BIV pronounce as a mans name
Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain
Read Out Your Good Book In Verse
Galilean Satellite of Jupiter Io Europa Ganymede Callisto
I Expect God Cries
I Eat Green Cheese
I Embarrass Good Christians
Ich erschrecke all guten Christen
I scare all good Christians
Saturnian Satellites
MET DR THIP
Miriams Enchiladas Taste Divine Recently Tell Her Im Proud
Mimas Enceladus Tethys Dione Rhea Titan Hyperion
Iapetus Phoebe
Uranian Satellites
MAUTO
Mispronunciations Afflict Uranus Too Often
My Angel Uriel Takes Opium
Miranda Ariel Umbriel Titania Oberon
NOTE the remaining FAQ sections do not appear in sciastro as they cover
material of relevance only to scispace
NEXT FAQ 815 Contacting NASA ESA and other space agenciescompanies
preprocess doc From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 51
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. For
example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.
For that matter, why exactly were the Apollo lunar experiments
"turned off" rather than just "safed". Was it political (i.e.
as along as they could be used, someone would keep bugging
congress for funds)? Turning them off keeps them pesky
scientists out of the bureaucrat's hair....
I've heard the argument that an active but "uncontrolled"
spacecraft causes "radio noise." I find that hard to believe
that this could be a problem in a properly designed "safe" mode.
This safe mode could be a program routine which causes the
spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation, and once a
(week, month, year, whatever) attempts a signal lock on Earth.
At that time, if funding has been restored, the mission can
continue. If no signal is recieved, the spacecraft goes back to
the safe mode for another time period. As we would know when the
spacecraft is going to try to contact Earth, we could be
prepared if necessary.
As another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is
beam stored data towards Earth. If someone can receive it,
great, if not, so it's lost and no big deal.
By making the time and signal location generally known, perhaps
someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the
data even if they're not willing to contact the spacecraft.
I see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which
could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to
places which are otherwise unaccessible (Jupiter/Saturn Orbit,
exiting the solar system, etc).
Perhaps those designing future spacecraft (Cassini, Pluto Flyby,
etc) should consider designing in a "pause" mode in case their
spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of
the primary mission. Perhaps Mars Observer and Galilleo could
have some kind of routine written in for the post mission
"drift" phase.
So any holes in all this?
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving |
| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the |
| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." |
| <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> |
after prepro From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 51
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again
For that matter why exactly were the Apollo lunar experiments
turned off rather than just safed Was it political ie
as along as they could be used someone would keep bugging
congress for funds Turning them off keeps them pesky
scientists out of the bureaucrats hair
Ive heard the argument that an active but uncontrolled
spacecraft causes radio noise I find that hard to believe
that this could be a problem in a properly designed safe mode
This safe mode could be a program routine which causes the
spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation and once a
week month year whatever attempts a signal lock on Earth
At that time if funding has been restored the mission can
continue If no signal is recieved the spacecraft goes back to
the safe mode for another time period As we would know when the
spacecraft is going to try to contact Earth we could be
prepared if necessary
As another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is
beam stored data towards Earth If someone can receive it
great if not so its lost and no big deal
By making the time and signal location generally known perhaps
someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the
data even if theyre not willing to contact the spacecraft
I see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which
could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to
places which are otherwise unaccessible JupiterSaturn Orbit
exiting the solar system etc
Perhaps those designing future spacecraft Cassini Pluto Flyby
etc should consider designing in a pause mode in case their
spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of
the primary mission Perhaps Mars Observer and Galilleo could
have some kind of routine written in for the post mission
drift phase
So any holes in all this
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving
the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the
Moon and returning him safely to the Earth
preprocess doc From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov
Subject: Re: NASA "Wraps"
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 86
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: judy.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr10.145502.28866@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes...
>In article <9APR199318394890@judy.uh.edu> wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov writes:
>
>>>BTW, universities do the same thing. They however, have a wrap of
>>>10% to 15% (again, this is over and above any overhead charge).
>
>>Wrong Allen. The max overhead charge is ALL of the charge. There is no
>>seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion.
>
>A professor at the University of Virginia told me their wrap was about
>15%. The subcontracts I have let out and worked on for other universities
>are about the same. My employer (a non-profit research institute) does
>the same. This is generally reffered to as the fee.
>
I don't care who told you this it is not generally true. I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it. There is no such thing as
wrap at this university. I also asked around here. Ther is no wrap at
Marquette, University of Wisconsin Madison, Utah State, Weber State or
Embry Riddle U. I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance
that I have been able to track down it does not. Also the president of our
University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did
not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead
to be a legitimate charge.
>>How do
>>I know? I write proposals and have won contracts and I know to the dime
>>what the charges are. At UAH for example the overhead is 36.6%.
>
>Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate. Go ask your
>costing people how much fee they add to a project.
>
I did they never heard of it but suggest that, like our president did, that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead.
>>If you have some numbers Allen then show them else quit barking.
>
>I did Dennis; read the article. To repeat: an internal estimate done by
>the Reston costing department says Freedom can be built for about $1.8B
>a year and operated for $1B per year *IF* all the money where spent on
>Freedom. Since we spend about half a billion $$ more per year it looks
>like roughly 25% of the money is wasted. Now if you think I'm making
>this up, you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few
>weeks ago in Space News.
>
No Allen you did not. You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA. Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on.
Kinda funny isn't it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead.
>This Dennis, is why NASA has so many problems: you can't accept that
>anything is wrong unless you can blame it on Congress. Oh, sure, you'll
>say NASA has problems but do you believe it? Remember the WP 02
>overrun? You insisted it was all congresses fault when NASA management
>knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act. Do you
>still blame Congress for the overrun?
>
Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems? Methinks that you are being
selective with the facts again.
>>By your own numbers Allen, at a cost of 500 million per flight the
>>service cost of flying shuttle to SSF is 2 billion for four flights, so how
>>did you get your one billion number?
>
>I have no idea what your trying to say here Dennis.
>
> Allen
>--
If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year. You stated that your
"friend" at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year "if the wrap were gone". This merely points out a
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see.
Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville.
Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allen's math for him for a while. I will have little chance to
do so.
after prepro From wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov
Subject Re NASA Wraps
Organization University of Houston
Lines 86
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost judyuhedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr1014550228866itiorg awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer writes
In article 9APR199318394890judyuhedu wingocsparadecnetFedexMsfcNasaGov writes
BTW universities do the same thing They however have a wrap of
10 to 15 again this is over and above any overhead charge
Wrong Allen The max overhead charge is ALL of the charge There is no
seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion
A professor at the University of Virginia told me their wrap was about
15 The subcontracts I have let out and worked on for other universities
are about the same My employer a nonprofit research institute does
the same This is generally reffered to as the fee
I dont care who told you this it is not generally true I see EVERY single
line item on a contract and I have to sign it There is no such thing as
wrap at this university I also asked around here Ther is no wrap at
Marquette University of Wisconsin Madison Utah State Weber State or
Embry Riddle U I am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance
that I have been able to track down it does not Also the president of our
University who was Provost at University of West Virgina said that it did
not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead
to be a legitimate charge
How do
I know I write proposals and have won contracts and I know to the dime
what the charges are At UAH for example the overhead is 366
Sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate Go ask your
costing people how much fee they add to a project
I did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that
any percentage number like this is included in the overhead
If you have some numbers Allen then show them else quit barking
I did Dennis read the article To repeat an internal estimate done by
the Reston costing department says Freedom can be built for about 18B
a year and operated for 1B per year IF all the money where spent on
Freedom Since we spend about half a billion more per year it looks
like roughly 25 of the money is wasted Now if you think Im making
this up you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few
weeks ago in Space News
No Allen you did not You merely repeated allegations made by an Employee
of the Overhead capital of NASA Nothing that Reston does could not be dont
better or cheaper at the Other NASA centers where the work is going on
Kinda funny isnt it that someone who talks about a problem like this is
at a place where everything is overhead
This Dennis is why NASA has so many problems you cant accept that
anything is wrong unless you can blame it on Congress Oh sure youll
say NASA has problems but do you believe it Remember the WP 02
overrun You insisted it was all congresses fault when NASA management
knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act Do you
still blame Congress for the overrun
Why did the Space News artice point out that it was the congressionally
demanded change that caused the problems Methinks that you are being
selective with the facts again
By your own numbers Allen at a cost of 500 million per flight the
service cost of flying shuttle to SSF is 2 billion for four flights so how
did you get your one billion number
I have no idea what your trying to say here Dennis
Allen
If it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost
of 500 million a flight then you pay 2 billion a year You stated that your
friend at Reston said that with the current station they could resupply it
for a billion a year if the wrap were gone This merely points out a
blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see
Dennis University of Alabama in Huntsville
Sorry gang but I have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going
to have to do Allens math for him for a while I will have little chance to
do so
preprocess doc From: gallas2@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Sean Michael Gallagher)
Subject: Funding for NASA
Article-I.D.: rpi.87g54s_
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: marcus.its.rpi.edu
I am doing a political science paper on the funding of NASA and pork-barrel
politics. I would be interested in information about funding practices and
histories of some of the major programs (Apollo, STS, SSF, etc) and the
funding of SSTO to contrast. Could someone please recommend some sources
that would be useful? Thank you.
--
Sean Gallagher
gallas2@rpi.edu
after prepro From gallas2marcusitsrpiedu Sean Michael Gallagher
Subject Funding for NASA
ArticleID rpi87g54s_
Lines 8
NntpPostingHost marcusitsrpiedu
I am doing a political science paper on the funding of NASA and porkbarrel
politics I would be interested in information about funding practices and
histories of some of the major programs Apollo STS SSF etc and the
funding of SSTO to contrast Could someone please recommend some sources
that would be useful Thank you
Sean Gallagher
gallas2rpiedu
preprocess doc From: a137490@lehtori.cc.tut.fi (Aario Sami)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization: Tampere University of Technology, Computing Centre
Lines: 37
Distribution: sfnet
NNTP-Posting-Host: cc.tut.fi
[deletions...]
In <1993Apr13.184227.1191@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>I really don't think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite.
First of all, infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans
to explain certain things in a certain way. We don't know if it actually
applies to reality, we don't know if anything in the world is infinite.
>It wouldn't be able to
>comprehend what reality is like for the programmer, because that would
>require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and
>based on infinietely small units- no units.
You don't know if the universe is actually continuous. Continuum is another
mathematical concept (based on infinity) used to explain things in a certain
way.
>Because humans do not know what infinite is. We call it something
>beyond numbers. We call it endless, but we do not know what it is.
I have a pretty good idea of what infinity is. It's a man-made concept, and
like many man-made concepts, it has evolved through time. Ancient Greeks had
a different understanding of it.
>So, we can call Allah infinitely powerful, knowledgeable, etc.., yet we
>cannot imagine what Allah actually is, because we just cannot imagine
>what it is like to be infinite.
Precicely. We don't even know if infinity applies to reality.
--
Sami Aario | "Can you see or measure an atom? Yet you can explode
a137490@cc.tut.fi | one. Sunlight is comprised of many atoms."
-------------------' "Your stupid minds! Stupid, stupid!"
Eros in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with Eros.
after prepro From a137490lehtoricctutfi Aario Sami
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Tampere University of Technology Computing Centre
Lines 37
Distribution sfnet
NNTPPostingHost cctutfi
[deletions]
In 1993Apr131842271191ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
I really dont think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite
First of all infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans
to explain certain things in a certain way We dont know if it actually
applies to reality we dont know if anything in the world is infinite
It wouldnt be able to
comprehend what reality is like for the programmer because that would
require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and
based on infinietely small units no units
You dont know if the universe is actually continuous Continuum is another
mathematical concept based on infinity used to explain things in a certain
way
Because humans do not know what infinite is We call it something
beyond numbers We call it endless but we do not know what it is
I have a pretty good idea of what infinity is Its a manmade concept and
like many manmade concepts it has evolved through time Ancient Greeks had
a different understanding of it
So we can call Allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet we
cannot imagine what Allah actually is because we just cannot imagine
what it is like to be infinite
Precicely We dont even know if infinity applies to reality
Sami Aario Can you see or measure an atom Yet you can explode
a137490cctutfi one Sunlight is comprised of many atoms
Your stupid minds Stupid stupid
Eros in Plan 9 From Outer Space DISCLAIMER I dont agree with Eros
preprocess doc From: dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Lines: 23
: >> The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime, but the legal
: >> shenanigans that have been added (automatic appeals, lengthy court
: >> battles, etc.) have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
: >> it should be. Hence the question is, do we instate the death penalty as
: >> it was meant to be, and see if that deters crime, or do we get rid of
: >> it entirely?
I doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a "deterrent" to crime. If so,
why doesn't every crime carry a death penalty ? That would be effictive
wouldn't it ???
The death penalty is a punishment, much like a $50 fine for speeding is
a punishment. Anyway, somebody with murder on the mind doesn't much care
about the consequences. I think another problem is that people dont think
they will get caught. If I wanted to kill another person, I wouldn't
care what the penalty was if I didn't think I would get caught.
If it was to be strictly a deterrent, it should have been more along
the lines of torture.
Dave Fuller
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com
after prepro From dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller
Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
Organization VideOcart Inc
XNewsreader Tin 11 PL3
Lines 23
The death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal
shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court
battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what
it should be Hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as
it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of
it entirely
I doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a deterrent to crime If so
why doesnt every crime carry a death penalty That would be effictive
wouldnt it
The death penalty is a punishment much like a 50 fine for speeding is
a punishment Anyway somebody with murder on the mind doesnt much care
about the consequences I think another problem is that people dont think
they will get caught If I wanted to kill another person I wouldnt
care what the penalty was if I didnt think I would get caught
If it was to be strictly a deterrent it should have been more along
the lines of torture
Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom
preprocess doc From: wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Alpha Science Computer Network, Denver, Co.
Lines: 5
The Apollo program cost something like $25 billion at a time when
the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now. No one would
take the offer.
--
Bruce Watson (wats@scicom.alphaCDC.COM) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131
after prepro From watsscicomAlphaCDCCOM Bruce Watson
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Alpha Science Computer Network Denver Co
Lines 5
The Apollo program cost something like 25 billion at a time when
the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now No one would
take the offer
Bruce Watson watsscicomalphaCDCCOM Bulletin 62949 Item 6700 Extract 75131
preprocess doc From: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Gulf War and Peace-niks
Lines: 67
In article <1993Apr20.062328.19776@bmerh85.bnr.ca>,
dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
[...]
>
> Wait a minute. You said *never* play a Chamberlain. Since the US
> *is* playing Chamberlain as far as East Timor is concerned, wouldn't
> that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing
> to do with the Gulf War? Actually, I rather like your idea. Perhaps
> the rest of the world should have bombed (or maybe missiled) Washington
> when the US invaded Nicaragua, Grenada, Panama, Vietnam, Mexico, Hawaii,
> or any number of other places.
Wait a minute, Doug. I know you are better informed than that. The US
has never invaded Nicaragua (as far as I know). We liberated Grenada
from the Cubans to protect US citizens there and to prevent the completion
of a strategic air strip. Panama we invaded, true (twice this century).
Vietnam? We were invited in by the government of S. Vietnam. (I guess
we "invaded" Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, eh?) Mexico? We have
invaded Mexico 2 or 3 times, once this century, but there were no missiles
for anyone to shoot over here at that time. Hawaii? We liberated it from
Spain.
So if you mean by the word "invaded" some sort of military action where
we cross someone's border, you are right 5 out of 6. But normally
"invaded" carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation.
(If some nation "invades" the U.S. Virgin Islands, would they be
invading the Virgin Islands or the U.S.?) So from this point of
view, your score falls to 2 out of 6 (Mexico, Panama).
[...]
>
> What's a "peace-nik"? Is that somebody who *doesn't* masturbate
> over "Guns'n'Ammo" or what? Is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik?
No, it's someone who believes in "peace-at-all-costs". In other words,
a person who would have supported giving Hitler not only Austria and
Czechoslakia, but Poland too if it could have averted the War. And one
who would allow Hitler to wipe all *all* Jews, slavs, and political
dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone.
"Is it supposed to be bad to be a peace-nik," you ask? Well, it depends
on what your values are. If you value life over liberty, peace over
freedom, then I guess not. But if liberty and freedom mean more to you
than life itself; if you'd rather die fighting for liberty than live
under a tyrant's heel, then yes, it's "bad" to be a peace-nik.
The problem with most peace-niks it they consider those of us who are
not like them to be "bad" and "unconscionable". I would not have any
argument or problem with a peace-nik if they held to their ideals and
stayed out of all conflicts or issues, especially those dealing with
the national defense. But no, they are not willing to allow us to
legitimately hold a different point-of-view. They militate and
many times resort to violence all in the name of peace. (What rank
hypocrisy!) All to stop we "warmongers" who are willing to stand up
and defend our freedoms against tyrants, and who realize that to do
so requires a strong national defense.
Time to get off the soapbox now. :)
[...]
> --
> Doug Graham dgraham@bnr.ca My opinions are my own.
Regards,
Jim B.
after prepro From jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
Subject Re Gulf War and Peaceniks
Lines 67
In article 1993Apr2006232819776bmerh85bnrca
dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
[]
Wait a minute You said never play a Chamberlain Since the US
is playing Chamberlain as far as East Timor is concerned wouldnt
that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing
to do with the Gulf War Actually I rather like your idea Perhaps
the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled Washington
when the US invaded Nicaragua Grenada Panama Vietnam Mexico Hawaii
or any number of other places
Wait a minute Doug I know you are better informed than that The US
has never invaded Nicaragua as far as I know We liberated Grenada
from the Cubans to protect US citizens there and to prevent the completion
of a strategic air strip Panama we invaded true twice this century
Vietnam We were invited in by the government of S Vietnam I guess
we invaded Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War eh Mexico We have
invaded Mexico 2 or 3 times once this century but there were no missiles
for anyone to shoot over here at that time Hawaii We liberated it from
Spain
So if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where
we cross someones border you are right 5 out of 6 But normally
invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation
If some nation invades the US Virgin Islands would they be
invading the Virgin Islands or the US So from this point of
view your score falls to 2 out of 6 Mexico Panama
[]
Whats a peacenik Is that somebody who doesnt masturbate
over GunsnAmmo or what Is it supposed to be bad to be a peacenik
No its someone who believes in peaceatallcosts In other words
a person who would have supported giving Hitler not only Austria and
Czechoslakia but Poland too if it could have averted the War And one
who would allow Hitler to wipe all all Jews slavs and political
dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone
Is it supposed to be bad to be a peacenik you ask Well it depends
on what your values are If you value life over liberty peace over
freedom then I guess not But if liberty and freedom mean more to you
than life itself if youd rather die fighting for liberty than live
under a tyrants heel then yes its bad to be a peacenik
The problem with most peaceniks it they consider those of us who are
not like them to be bad and unconscionable I would not have any
argument or problem with a peacenik if they held to their ideals and
stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with
the national defense But no they are not willing to allow us to
legitimately hold a different pointofview They militate and
many times resort to violence all in the name of peace What rank
hypocrisy All to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up
and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do
so requires a strong national defense
Time to get off the soapbox now
[]
Doug Graham dgrahambnrca My opinions are my own
Regards
Jim B
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 41
In <16BB4C522.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <1993Apr17.122329.21438@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
>>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH: ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE." (Holy Quran 21:33)
>>
>>>Hmm. This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre,
>>>with the planets orbitting round it. So Copernicus and Gallileo were
>>>wrong after all!
>>
>>You haven't read very carefully -- if you look again, you will see that
>>it doesn't say anything about what is circling what.
>
>Anyway, they are not moving in circles.
Oops, sorry, my words, not the words of the Qur'an.
>Nor is there any evidence that
>everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense. Wishy-
>washy statements are not scientific.
Note that "(the celestial bodies)" in the above verse is an
interpolation (which is why it is in brackets) -- it is the translator's
(incorrect, IMHO) interpretation.
Here is Maurice Bucaille's translation (he studied Arabic for his
research into the Qur'an and science) of this verse:
"(God is) the One Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon.
Each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion." (Qur'an :33)
The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr. Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time (and for
a long time afterwards), there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
(or anywhere in the Qur'an).
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 41
In 16BB4C522I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1993Apr1712232921438monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE Holy Quran 2133
Hmm This agrees with the Ptolemic system of the earth at the centre
with the planets orbitting round it So Copernicus and Gallileo were
wrong after all
You havent read very carefully if you look again you will see that
it doesnt say anything about what is circling what
Anyway they are not moving in circles
Oops sorry my words not the words of the Quran
Nor is there any evidence that
everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense Wishy
washy statements are not scientific
Note that the celestial bodies in the above verse is an
interpolation which is why it is in brackets it is the translators
incorrect IMHO interpretation
Here is Maurice Bucailles translation he studied Arabic for his
research into the Quran and science of this verse
God is the One Who created the night the day the sun and the moon
Each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion Quran 33
The positive aspect of this verse noted by Dr Maurice Bucaille is that
while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for
a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse
or anywhere in the Quran
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
In-reply-to: enzo@research.canon.oz.au's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:36:55 GMT
In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
>1. SPACE BILLBOARDS! IS THIS ONE THE "SPINOFFS" WE WERE PROMISED?
>In 1950, science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published "The
>Man Who Sold the Moon," which involved a dispute over the sale of
>rights to the Moon for use as billboard. NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
>hideous vision of the future. Observers were
>startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
>pad with "SCHWARZENEGGER" painted in huge block letters on the
>side of the booster rockets. Space Marketing Inc. had arranged
>for the ad to promote Arnold's latest movie.
Well, if you're going to get upset with this, you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well. They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA.
(Sign of the times: a Sony logo on a Soyuz launcher...)
>Now, Space Marketing
>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>orbit.
This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of. Does anyone
know if he's involved?
>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense. This
>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people. My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large, inflatable space structures.
>..........
>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
If this is true, I think it's a great idea.
Learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development, and given that Freedom appears to be
shrinking towards the vanishing point, I question whether NASA's space
station is going to provide much, if any, knowledge in this area.
(Especially if a design such as Faget's wingless orbiter is chosen...)
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so
much the better.
>Is NASA really supporting this junk?
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip? How serious is this project? Is this just in the "wild
idea" stage or does it have real funding?
>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
Not yet. Though, if this project goes through, I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable...
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
after prepro From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 70
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu
Inreplyto enzoresearchcanonozaus message of Tue 20 Apr 1993 223655 GMT
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
1 SPACE BILLBOARDS IS THIS ONE THE SPINOFFS WE WERE PROMISED
In 1950 science fiction writer Robert Heinlein published The
Man Who Sold the Moon which involved a dispute over the sale of
rights to the Moon for use as billboard NASA has taken the firsteps toward this
hideous vision of the future Observers were
startled this spring when a NASA launch vehicle arrived at the
pad with SCHWARZENEGGER painted in huge block letters on the
side of the booster rockets Space Marketing Inc had arranged
for the ad to promote Arnolds latest movie
Well if youre going to get upset with this you might as well direct
some of this moral outrage towards Glavcosmos as well They pioneered
this capitalist application of booster adverts long before NASA
Sign of the times a Sony logo on a Soyuz launcher
Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit
This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of Does anyone
know if hes involved
NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large inflatable space structures
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
If this is true I think its a great idea
Learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development and given that Freedom appears to be
shrinking towards the vanishing point I question whether NASAs space
station is going to provide much if any knowledge in this area
Especially if a design such as Fagets wingless orbiter is chosen
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of partial private sector funding in the process so
much the better
Is NASA really supporting this junk
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip How serious is this project Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Not yet Though if this project goes through I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution. They
>>picked words whose meanings implied the intent. We have already looked
>>in the dictionary to define the word. Isn't this sufficient?
>We only need to ask the question: what did the founding fathers
>consider cruel and unusual punishment?
>Hanging? Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
>painful, both physically and psychologicall, I imagine.
Well, most hangings are very quick and, I imagine, painless.
>Firing squad ? [ note: not a clean way to die back in those
>days ], etc.
>All would be considered cruel under your definition.
>All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers.
And, hangings and firing squads are allowed today, too. And, if these
things were not considered cruel, then surely a medical execution
(painless) would not be, either.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution They
picked words whose meanings implied the intent We have already looked
in the dictionary to define the word Isnt this sufficient
We only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers
consider cruel and unusual punishment
Hanging Hanging there slowing being strangled would be very
painful both physically and psychologicall I imagine
Well most hangings are very quick and I imagine painless
Firing squad [ note not a clean way to die back in those
days ] etc
All would be considered cruel under your definition
All were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers
And hangings and firing squads are allowed today too And if these
things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution
painless would not be either
keith
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
> there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit
Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that you just can
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its
orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because
the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth
that does not provide a stable orbit around the Moon???
C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV
C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 13
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit
Is it right That is new stuff for me So it means that you just can
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its
orbit will be unstable If so what is the reason Is that because
the combined gravitacional atraction of the SunMoon and Earth
that does not provide a stable orbit around the Moon
COEGALONLARCNASAGOV
COEgalonlarcnasagov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
preprocess doc From: djf@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Marvin Batty)
Subject: Re: Moon Colony Prize Race! $6 billion total?
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Starfleet, Coventry, UK
Lines: 49
In article <1993Apr20.020259.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>I think if there is to be a prize and such.. There should be "classes"
>such as the following:
>
>Large Corp.
>Small Corp/Company (based on reported earnings?)
>Large Government (GNP and such)
>Small Governemtn (or political clout or GNP?)
>Large Organization (Planetary Society? and such?)
>Small Organization (Alot of small orgs..)
Whatabout, Schools, Universities, Rich Individuals (around 250 people
in the UK have more than 10 million dollars each). I reecieved mail
from people who claimed they might get a person into space for $500
per pound. Send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money
among the ground crew!
>
>The organization things would probably have to be non-profit or liek ??
>
>Of course this means the prize might go up. Larger get more or ??
>Basically make the prize (total purse) $6 billion, divided amngst the class
>winners..
>More fair?
>
>There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events,
>umpire and such and watch for safety violations (or maybe not, if peopel want
>to risk thier own lives let them do it?).
>
Agreed. I volunteer for any UK attempts. But one clause: No launch methods
which are clearly dangerous to the environment (ours or someone else's). No
usage of materials from areas of planetary importance.
>Any other ideas??
Yes: We should *do* this rather than talk about it. Lobby people!
The major problem with the space programmes is all talk/paperwork and
no action!
>==
>Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
>
>
--
****************************************************************************
Marvin Batty - djf@uk.ac.cov.cck
"And they shall not find those things, with a sort of rafia like base,
that their fathers put there just the night before. At about 8 O'clock!"
after prepro From djfcckcoventryacuk Marvin Batty
Subject Re Moon Colony Prize Race 6 billion total
NntpPostingHost cc_sysk
Organization Starfleet Coventry UK
Lines 49
In article 1993Apr200202591auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
I think if there is to be a prize and such There should be classes
such as the following
Large Corp
Small CorpCompany based on reported earnings
Large Government GNP and such
Small Governemtn or political clout or GNP
Large Organization Planetary Society and such
Small Organization Alot of small orgs
Whatabout Schools Universities Rich Individuals around 250 people
in the UK have more than 10 million dollars each I reecieved mail
from people who claimed they might get a person into space for 500
per pound Send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money
among the ground crew
The organization things would probably have to be nonprofit or liek
Of course this means the prize might go up Larger get more or
Basically make the prize total purse 6 billion divided amngst the class
winners
More fair
There would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events
umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want
to risk thier own lives let them do it
Agreed I volunteer for any UK attempts But one clause No launch methods
which are clearly dangerous to the environment ours or someone elses No
usage of materials from areas of planetary importance
Any other ideas
Yes We should do this rather than talk about it Lobby people
The major problem with the space programmes is all talkpaperwork and
no action
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
Marvin Batty djfukaccovcck
And they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base
that their fathers put there just the night before At about 8 Oclock
preprocess doc From: byab314@chpc.utexas.edu (Srinivas Bettadpur)
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Organization: Center for Space Research, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 15
In article <1993Apr23.140649.1@rhea.arc.ab.ca> thacker@rhea.arc.ab.ca writes:
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au>, enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>
>> What about light pollution in observations? (I read somewhere else that
>> it might even be visible during the day, leave alone at night).
>
>No need to be depressed about this one. Lights aren't on during the day
>so there shouldn't be any daytime light pollution.
Thanks for these surreal moments....
Srinivas
--
Srinivas Bettadpur Internet : byab314@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu
P.O. Box 8520, Austin, Tx. 78713-8520, U.S.A. Tel. (512) 471 4332
BITNET : byab314@uthermes
after prepro From byab314chpcutexasedu Srinivas Bettadpur
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization Center for Space Research University of Texas at Austin
Lines 15
In article 1993Apr231406491rheaarcabca thackerrheaarcabca writes
In article enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
What about light pollution in observations I read somewhere else that
it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night
No need to be depressed about this one Lights arent on during the day
so there shouldnt be any daytime light pollution
Thanks for these surreal moments
Srinivas
Srinivas Bettadpur Internet byab314hermeschpcutexasedu
PO Box 8520 Austin Tx 787138520 USA Tel 512 471 4332
BITNET byab314uthermes
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: >>>>>>Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 226
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
<MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>Many people would probably think (especially if the fanatics propogandized
>>this) that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious.
>>Many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion, if
>>we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference.
>That's not what the people I've asked think. Perhaps you would be right
>if you said the fundamentalists would think this way; after all, they think
>they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress. However,
>you have not shown where you get this idea that 'many' people would
>'probably' think it's atheism vs. religion, winner take all. As far as I can
>tell, it is your groundless prediction that this will happen.
But you haven't taken into the account of propoganda. Remember, if you
asked Germans before WWII if the Jews shoudl be slaughtered, they would
probably answer no, but, after the propoganda machine rolled through, at
least some were able to tolerate it.
You see, it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general
frenzy.
>>THe propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues, including
>>abortion and gays... look at some of the things that have happened.
>Well, so far they have passed one amendment, which is currently under
>intense scrutiny, and they have failed to outlaw abortion, which is their
>prime goal on that issue. Yep, they seem sooo effective. Sure.
Well, they haven't managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity
of the courts. But, they have managed to create quite a few problems for
people that wanted to have an abortion. They could create similar problems
for us. And, it could be worse. They can try to stop abortions by blocking
clinics, etc., but imagine what they'd have to do to stop atheism.
>>>>Besides, the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people.
>>>Better than your one, that is, your opinion. Also, I have branched
>>>out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now.
>>And, what have they said? Were you questions unbiased?
>Keith, you would claim that my questions are biased the minute I posted
>them, because the answers agreed with me. Everyone I have asked about
>the possible removal of the motto (the christian portion) has expressed
>regret about its loss, because they like it. However, when it is pointed
>out to them that a new motto will not be in the works, none have expressed
>the desire to rape, murder, pillage, etc., which you have basically claimed.
So, you are able to convince them individually, but could you convince a
whole room of them? A whole nation?
>As for the atheist portion (I know some around here), they have all
>expressed disgust with the motto. Some noted being harassed by christians
>who used the motto to try to seem justified. And all would see it gone.
Yes, I'd be glad if it were gone to. I've never supported it. However,
I think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored, contrasted
with what *could* happen (an what may be likely).
>>Which Christians designed the motto? Does the motto say anything about
>>Jesus? Why do you think that it refers *only* to Christians?
>Christians wrote it; christians think that their religion is right, and
>all others are wrong; therefore, why would they 'include' other religions
>in the realm of being correct? I doubt that any other religions were meant
>to be included.
Well, I am not clear on the religious convictions of Francis Scott Key (the
motto can be attributed to him), but it is at least clear that he believed
in a god. And, surely there are a few Christians that think as you say,
but I don't think that most do. Do you think that all Christians actively
despise other religions? Most that I have met haven't and don't do so.
>>>No christian
>>>that I have queried thinks it means anything but them, and only them.
>>Why not ask some people of other faiths?
>Sorry, I would, but christianity is just so awfully popular around here.
>Suppose you could ask a few people?
Well, I have asked a Hindu, Moselem, and a few Jews, and all of them think
that it is applicable to them. Of course, I can't say that these people
(just some that I know pretty well) are accurate representations of their
faiths.
>>It is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any
>>given issue. You are assuming that all the views were the same, and nothing
>>leads to this conclusion.
>Without evidence to the contrary, I doubt that there were dissenting
>opinions. You claim there were. Provide some evidence for your assertion.
Well, I'd really like to, and I've tried, but I really don't know where to
get access to _Congressional Records_ from the 1950's. Can anyone help
out here?
>Comparing christians to Nazis? Interesting.
Only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs.
>>>>No, again, the motto on the money doesn't cost you anything extra. However,
>>>>if you abolished the motto, we'd all have to pay to have all the dies and
>>>>plates redone.
>>>Like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them.
>>You now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again.
>... Also, I doubt that they use th3
>same plates for more than a year's printing; this would make it easy
>to remove the motto (simply make next year's plates without it). Your
>claim, evidently, is that they will have to pay extra somewhere.
>Provide some evidence for this assertion.
So, are you saying that they redesign the plates each year?
Anyway, your whole argument (conveniently deleted I see) was that the motto
somehow costs us all a lot of money. This is just not correct.
>>The ones I read didn't mention anything about Jesus. I think the issue was
>>concerning the distinction between religion and not.
>How could it be between religious and not religious? The motto
>refers to god; it is a religious motto. The question is whether or
>not it is only christian. You say it is more. I doubt this. Provide
>some evidence for this assertion.
That is to say, the religion of this country, and the non-religion of
the USSR. That was what most of those quotes were about, and some included
all atheists, in general, as well. I don't think that any of the quotes
(although I seem to have lost them) mentioned anything at all about Jesus.
They advocated religion over non-religion. A specific religion was not
mentioned.
>>You have missed this point. I said that the motto didn't say anything
>>about anyone in particular. That is, the motto doesn't imply anything
>>about *your* particular beliefs. It doesn't say that everyone trusts
>>in some form of god, only that the nation on the whole does.
>We have been through this before. It's obvious it does not include me;
>this much is beyond doubt. Your claim, again, is that the motto refers
>to more than christians. Based on the facts that christianity says all
>other religions are wrong, and because it seems that the motto was
>written by christians, I doubt your claim.
So, you are saying that all Christians must believe that all other religions
should be outlawed, just because they think they are wrong? That's silly.
I think the Flat-Earthers are wrong, but I don't advocate their banishment.
>[...] Based on this idea I doubt that any additional expense would
>even be incurred by removing the motto. Provide some evidence for your
>claim that it would.
I think that any such cost would be insignificant. I mentioned the slight
cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by
being on our currency.
>Disregarding the digression of the other motto...If it is used for
>harassment, and no other purpose has been found for it, why should
>it not be removed?
Well, mottos in general don't really have purposes... I don't think it
should be removed because I think the benefit would be outweighed by the
consequences.
>>And do you know what the vote was? Were there other opinions? Do you
>>think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother
>>atheists? Do you think that this is what the majority of congress at
>>the time had in mind? If you do, then show why.
>Again, it is the opinion of the people who put it there that I am
>concerned with.
Then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress.
>Again, it is not necessary that the complete majority
>shared the purpose of confronting 'godless Communism' with this motto.
Why not? It is the majority that put it there.
>>The general public probably does not know about the anti-atheist intent
>>of a few people in the 50's either.
>I daresay more people remember the 50's than the time when Key wrote
>the anthem.
But do they remember the debate surrounding the motto? Do they remember
that some people intended it to be a message against atheists? Why don't
you include this in your little survey that you were conducting?
[...]
>You claim here that scientists would believe someone's claims. I doubt
>this. Provide evidence for your assertion.
What? Should I ask some scientists the probability that something Einstein
said about relativity is worthy? I mean, if Einstein said it, there's a
good chance that it was right (at least at the time).
>As for the courts, the
>method scientists use can be applied. I need not agree with the court
>by default because of a 'good record.'
You need not agree with them all of the time, but you would certainly think
that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point.
>>What? But you said you didn't agree with the court because they "allowed
>>Congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning." If
>>you don't realize that something like this is external to the realm of
>>the court's power, then how can I be confident that you know *anything*
>>about the court's powers? I mean, if you don't know how the court works,
>>how can you participate in a discussion of the court?
>A judge can go to speak before Congress. And still you ignore the
>abortion gag rule, as you make your claims on abortion.
No, I think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a Supreme Court
Justice to testify before Congress during the consideration of a
Constitutional Amendment.
And, in order for the Court to rule on something, a case usually must be
presented.
>>Mushrooms, flowers, trees, buildings, signs, whatever... the analogy is
>>the same. Just because something that I might find offensive is present
>>doesn't mean that my rights are being violated.
>We are talking about something put there by people, Keith...not
>a mushroom. No one caused that mushroom to exist, unless you're
>finding things offensive in a mushroom farm.
Yes, some mushrooms can be planted. And, I don't appreciate mushrooms on
my pizza, either.
>This is not the case
>with the motto. And you're ignoring the harassment which is the
>only known result of the motto, and you're ignoring that somewhere
>along the line people were forced to put the motto there.
Who was forced to put the motto there? What do you mean?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Pompous ass
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 226
NNTPPostingHost lloydcaltechedu
writes
Many people would probably think especially if the fanatics propogandized
this that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious
Many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion if
we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference
Thats not what the people Ive asked think Perhaps you would be right
if you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think
they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress However
you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would
probably think its atheism vs religion winner take all As far as I can
tell it is your groundless prediction that this will happen
But you havent taken into the account of propoganda Remember if you
asked Germans before WWII if the Jews shoudl be slaughtered they would
probably answer no but after the propoganda machine rolled through at
least some were able to tolerate it
You see it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general
frenzy
THe propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues including
abortion and gays look at some of the things that have happened
Well so far they have passed one amendment which is currently under
intense scrutiny and they have failed to outlaw abortion which is their
prime goal on that issue Yep they seem sooo effective Sure
Well they havent managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity
of the courts But they have managed to create quite a few problems for
people that wanted to have an abortion They could create similar problems
for us And it could be worse They can try to stop abortions by blocking
clinics etc but imagine what theyd have to do to stop atheism
Besides the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people
Better than your one that is your opinion Also I have branched
out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now
And what have they said Were you questions unbiased
Keith you would claim that my questions are biased the minute I posted
them because the answers agreed with me Everyone I have asked about
the possible removal of the motto the christian portion has expressed
regret about its loss because they like it However when it is pointed
out to them that a new motto will not be in the works none have expressed
the desire to rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed
So you are able to convince them individually but could you convince a
whole room of them A whole nation
As for the atheist portion I know some around here they have all
expressed disgust with the motto Some noted being harassed by christians
who used the motto to try to seem justified And all would see it gone
Yes Id be glad if it were gone to Ive never supported it However
I think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored contrasted
with what could happen an what may be likely
Which Christians designed the motto Does the motto say anything about
Jesus Why do you think that it refers only to Christians
Christians wrote it christians think that their religion is right and
all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions
in the realm of being correct I doubt that any other religions were meant
to be included
Well I am not clear on the religious convictions of Francis Scott Key the
motto can be attributed to him but it is at least clear that he believed
in a god And surely there are a few Christians that think as you say
but I dont think that most do Do you think that all Christians actively
despise other religions Most that I have met havent and dont do so
No christian
that I have queried thinks it means anything but them and only them
Why not ask some people of other faiths
Sorry I would but christianity is just so awfully popular around here
Suppose you could ask a few people
Well I have asked a Hindu Moselem and a few Jews and all of them think
that it is applicable to them Of course I cant say that these people
just some that I know pretty well are accurate representations of their
faiths
It is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any
given issue You are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing
leads to this conclusion
Without evidence to the contrary I doubt that there were dissenting
opinions You claim there were Provide some evidence for your assertion
Well Id really like to and Ive tried but I really dont know where to
get access to _Congressional Records_ from the 1950s Can anyone help
out here
Comparing christians to Nazis Interesting
Only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs
No again the motto on the money doesnt cost you anything extra However
if you abolished the motto wed all have to pay to have all the dies and
plates redone
Like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them
You now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again
Also I doubt that they use th3
same plates for more than a years printing this would make it easy
to remove the motto simply make next years plates without it Your
claim evidently is that they will have to pay extra somewhere
Provide some evidence for this assertion
So are you saying that they redesign the plates each year
Anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted I see was that the motto
somehow costs us all a lot of money This is just not correct
The ones I read didnt mention anything about Jesus I think the issue was
concerning the distinction between religion and not
How could it be between religious and not religious The motto
refers to god it is a religious motto The question is whether or
not it is only christian You say it is more I doubt this Provide
some evidence for this assertion
That is to say the religion of this country and the nonreligion of
the USSR That was what most of those quotes were about and some included
all atheists in general as well I dont think that any of the quotes
although I seem to have lost them mentioned anything at all about Jesus
They advocated religion over nonreligion A specific religion was not
mentioned
You have missed this point I said that the motto didnt say anything
about anyone in particular That is the motto doesnt imply anything
about your particular beliefs It doesnt say that everyone trusts
in some form of god only that the nation on the whole does
We have been through this before Its obvious it does not include me
this much is beyond doubt Your claim again is that the motto refers
to more than christians Based on the facts that christianity says all
other religions are wrong and because it seems that the motto was
written by christians I doubt your claim
So you are saying that all Christians must believe that all other religions
should be outlawed just because they think they are wrong Thats silly
I think the FlatEarthers are wrong but I dont advocate their banishment
[] Based on this idea I doubt that any additional expense would
even be incurred by removing the motto Provide some evidence for your
claim that it would
I think that any such cost would be insignificant I mentioned the slight
cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by
being on our currency
Disregarding the digression of the other mottoIf it is used for
harassment and no other purpose has been found for it why should
it not be removed
Well mottos in general dont really have purposes I dont think it
should be removed because I think the benefit would be outweighed by the
consequences
And do you know what the vote was Were there other opinions Do you
think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother
atheists Do you think that this is what the majority of congress at
the time had in mind If you do then show why
Again it is the opinion of the people who put it there that I am
concerned with
Then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress
Again it is not necessary that the complete majority
shared the purpose of confronting godless Communism with this motto
Why not It is the majority that put it there
The general public probably does not know about the antiatheist intent
of a few people in the 50s either
I daresay more people remember the 50s than the time when Key wrote
the anthem
But do they remember the debate surrounding the motto Do they remember
that some people intended it to be a message against atheists Why dont
you include this in your little survey that you were conducting
[]
You claim here that scientists would believe someones claims I doubt
this Provide evidence for your assertion
What Should I ask some scientists the probability that something Einstein
said about relativity is worthy I mean if Einstein said it theres a
good chance that it was right at least at the time
As for the courts the
method scientists use can be applied I need not agree with the court
by default because of a good record
You need not agree with them all of the time but you would certainly think
that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point
What But you said you didnt agree with the court because they allowed
Congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning If
you dont realize that something like this is external to the realm of
the courts power then how can I be confident that you know anything
about the courts powers I mean if you dont know how the court works
how can you participate in a discussion of the court
A judge can go to speak before Congress And still you ignore the
abortion gag rule as you make your claims on abortion
No I think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a Supreme Court
Justice to testify before Congress during the consideration of a
Constitutional Amendment
And in order for the Court to rule on something a case usually must be
presented
Mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever the analogy is
the same Just because something that I might find offensive is present
doesnt mean that my rights are being violated
We are talking about something put there by people Keithnot
a mushroom No one caused that mushroom to exist unless youre
finding things offensive in a mushroom farm
Yes some mushrooms can be planted And I dont appreciate mushrooms on
my pizza either
This is not the case
with the motto And youre ignoring the harassment which is the
only known result of the motto and youre ignoring that somewhere
along the line people were forced to put the motto there
Who was forced to put the motto there What do you mean
keith
preprocess doc From: naren@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM (Naren Bala)
Subject: Re: Slavery (was Re: Why is sex only allowed in marriage: ...)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 21
In article <sandvik-150493144638@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>Looking at historical evidence such 'perfect utopian' islamic states
>didn't survive. I agree, people are people, and even if you might
>start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state, it takes
>some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules --
>again.
>
Nothing is perfect. Nothing is perpetual. i.e. even if it is perfect,
it isn't going to stay that way forever.
Perpetual machines cannot exist. I thought that there
were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that.
Not an atheist
BN
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
- Naren Bala (Software Evaluation Engineer)
- HOME: (503) 627-0380 WORK: (503) 627-2742
- All standard disclaimers apply.
after prepro From narentekig1PENTEKCOM Naren Bala
Subject Re Slavery was Re Why is sex only allowed in marriage
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton OR
Lines 21
In article sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
Looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states
didnt survive I agree people are people and even if you might
start an Islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes
some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules
again
Nothing is perfect Nothing is perpetual ie even if it is perfect
it isnt going to stay that way forever
Perpetual machines cannot exist I thought that there
were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that
Not an atheist
BN
Naren Bala Software Evaluation Engineer
HOME 503 6270380 WORK 503 6272742
All standard disclaimers apply
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 13/15 - Interest Groups & Publications
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.groups_733694492
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:01:32 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 354
Supersedes: <groups_730956605@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Archive-name: space/groups
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:08 $
SPACE ACTIVIST/INTEREST/RESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS
GROUPS
AIA -- Aerospace Industry Association. Professional group, with primary
membership of major aerospace firms. Headquartered in the DC area.
Acts as the "voice of the aerospace industry" -- and it's opinions
are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
the firms in AIA.
[address needed]
AIAA -- American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.
Professional association, with somewhere about 30,000-40,000
members. 65 local chapters around the country -- largest chapters
are DC area (3000 members), LA (2100 members), San Francisco (2000
members), Seattle/NW (1500), Houston (1200) and Orange County
(1200), plus student chapters. Not a union, but acts to represent
aviation and space professionals (engineers, managers, financial
types) nationwide. Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
aviation topics publishes technical Journals (Aerospace Journal,
Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, etc.), technical reference books
and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
their published papers and proceedings. Also offers continuing
education classes on aerospace design. Has over 60 technical
committees, and over 30 committees for industry standards. AIAA acts
as a professional society -- offers a centralized resume/jobs
function, provides classes on job search, offers low-cost health and
life insurance, and lobbies for appropriate legislation (AIAA was
one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs - Individual
Retirement Accounts). Very active public policy arm -- works
directly with the media, congress and government agencies as a
legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
technology technical issues. Reasonably non-partisan, in that they
represent the industry as a whole, and not a single company,
organization, or viewpoint.
Membership $70/yr (student memberships are less).
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
The Aerospace Center
370 L'Enfant Promenade, SW
Washington, DC 20077-0820
(202)-646-7400
AMSAT - develops small satellites (since the 1960s) for a variety of
uses by amateur radio enthusiasts. Has various publications,
supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PC/Mac/Amiga etc.
Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
P.O. Box 27
Washington, DC 20044
(301)-589-6062
ASERA - Australian Space Engineering and Research Association. An
Australian non-profit organisation to coordinate, promote, and
conduct space R&D projects in Australia, involving both Australian
and international (primarily university) collaborators. Activities
include the development of sounding rockets, small satellites
(especially microsatellites), high-altitude research balloons, and
appropriate payloads. Provides student projects at all levels, and
is open to any person or organisation interested in participating.
Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal.
Membership $A100 (dual subscription)
Subscriptions $A25 (newsletter only) $A50 (journal only)
ASERA Ltd
PO Box 184
Ryde, NSW, Australia, 2112
email: lindley@syd.dit.csiro.au
BIS - British Interplanetary Society. Probably the oldest pro-space
group, BIS publishes two excellent journals: _Spaceflight_, covering
current space activities, and the _Journal of the BIS_, containing
technical papers on space activities from near-term space probes to
interstellar missions. BIS has published a design study for an
interstellar probe called _Daedalus_.
British Interplanetary Society
27/29 South Lambeth Road
London SW8 1SZ
ENGLAND
No dues information available at present.
ISU - International Space University. ISU is a non-profit international
graduate-level educational institution dedicated to promoting the
peaceful exploration and development of space through multi-cultural
and multi-disciplinary space education and research. For further
information on ISU's summer session program or Permanent Campus
activities please send messages to 'information@isu.isunet.edu' or
contact the ISU Executive Offices at:
International Space University
955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617)-354-1987 (phone)
(617)-354-7666 (fax)
L-5 Society (defunct). Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
advocate space colonization. Its major success was in preventing US
participation in the UN "Moon Treaty" in the late 1970s. Merged with
the National Space Institute in 1987, forming the National Space
Society.
NSC - National Space Club. Open for general membership, but not well
known at all. Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
industry. Acts as information conduit and social gathering group.
Active in DC, with a chapter in LA. Monthly meetings with invited
speakers who are "heavy hitters" in the field. Annual "Outlook on
Space" conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
annual planning for space programs. Cheap membership (approx
$20/yr).
[address needed]
NSS - the National Space Society. NSS is a pro-space group distinguished
by its network of local chapters. Supports a general agenda of space
development and man-in-space, including the NASA space station.
Publishes _Ad Astra_, a monthly glossy magazine, and runs Shuttle
launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services. A major sponsor
of the annual space development conference. Associated with
Spacecause and Spacepac, political lobbying organizations.
Membership $18 (youth/senior) $35 (regular).
National Space Society
Membership Department
922 Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E.
Washington, DC 20003-2140
(202)-543-1900
Planetary Society - founded by Carl Sagan. The largest space advocacy
group. Publishes _Planetary Report_, a monthly glossy, and has
supported SETI hardware development financially. Agenda is primarily
support of space science, recently amended to include an
international manned mission to Mars.
The Planetary Society
65 North Catalina Avenue
Pasadena, CA 91106
Membership $35/year.
SSI - the Space Studies Institute, founded by Dr. Gerard O'Neill.
Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
O'Neill's death in 1992. Publishes _SSI Update_, a bimonthly
newsletter describing work-in-progress. Conducts a research program
including mass-drivers, lunar mining processes and simulants,
composites from lunar materials, solar power satellites. Runs the
biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing.
Membership $25/year. Senior Associates ($100/year and up) fund most
SSI research.
Space Studies Institute
258 Rosedale Road
PO Box 82
Princeton, NJ 08540
SEDS - Students for the Exploration and Development of Space. Founded in
1980 at MIT and Princeton. SEDS is a chapter-based pro-space
organization at high schools and universities around the world.
Entirely student run. Each chapter is independent and coordinates
its own local activities. Nationally, SEDS runs a scholarship
competition, design contests, and holds an annual international
conference and meeting in late summer.
Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
MIT Room W20-445
77 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617)-253-8897
email: odyssey@athena.mit.edu
Dues determined by local chapter.
SPACECAUSE - A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
Family of Organizations. Publishes a bi-monthly newsletter,
Spacecause News. Annual dues is $25. Members also receive a discount
on _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Activities to support pro-space
legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
with legislative staff. Spacecause primarily operates in the
legislative process.
National Office West Coast Office
Spacecause Spacecause
922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE 3435 Ocean Park Blvd.
Washington, D.C. 20003 Suite 201-S
(202)-543-1900 Santa Monica, CA 90405
SPACEPAC - A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
Organizations. Spacepac researches issues, policies, and candidates.
Each year, updates _The Space Activist's Handbook_. Current Handbook
price is $25. While Spacepac does not have a membership, it does
have regional contacts to coordinate local activity. Spacepac
primarily operates in the election process, contributing money and
volunteers to pro-space candidates.
Spacepac
922 Pennsylvania Ave. SE
Washington, DC 20003
(202)-543-1900
UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION - a public, non-profit organization
supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
international education, understanding and support of space. The
group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
in education. Other projects include developing lesson plans that
use space to teach other basic skills such as reading. Publishes
"Spacewatch," a monthly B&W glossy magazine of USSF events and
general space news. Annual dues:
Charter $50 ($100 first year)
Individual $35
Teacher $29
College student $20
HS/Jr. High $10
Elementary $5
Founder & $1000+
Life Member
United States Space Foundation
PO Box 1838
Colorado Springs, CO 80901
(719)-550-1000
WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION - has been designing and building a solar-sail
spacecraft for longer than any similar group; many JPL employees lend
their talents to this project. WSF also provides partial funding for the
Palomar Sky Survey, an extremely successful search for near-Earth
asteroids. Publishes *Foundation News* and *Foundation Astronautics
Notebook*, each a quarterly 4-8 page newsletter. Contributing Associate,
minimum of $15/year (but more money always welcome to support projects).
World Space Foundation
Post Office Box Y
South Pasadena, California 91301
PUBLICATIONS
Aerospace Daily (McGraw-Hill)
Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues. Approx. $1400/yr.
Air & Space / Smithsonian (bimonthly magazine)
Box 53261
Boulder, CO 80332-3261
$18/year US, $24/year international
ESA - The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals,
generally available free of charge. A document describing them in
more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
pub/SPACE/FAQ/ESAPublications.
Final Frontier (mass-market bimonthly magazine) - history, book reviews,
general-interest articles (e.g. "The 7 Wonders of the Solar System",
"Everything you always wanted to know about military space
programs", etc.)
Final Frontier Publishing Co.
PO Box 534
Mt. Morris, IL 61054-7852
$14.95/year US, $19.95 Canada, $23.95 elsewhere
Space News (weekly magazine) - covers US civil and military space
programs. Said to have good political and business but spotty
technical coverage.
Space News
Springfield VA 22159-0500
(703)-642-7330
$75/year, may have discounts for NSS/SSI members
Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times - publications of
the American Astronautical Society. No details.
AAS Business Office
6352 Rolling Mill Place, Suite #102
Springfield, VA 22152
(703)-866-0020
GPS World (semi-monthly) - reports on current and new uses of GPS, news
and analysis of the system and policies affecting it, and technical
and product issues shaping GPS applications.
GPS World
859 Willamette St.
P.O. Box 10460
Eugene, OR 97440-2460
(503)-343-1200
Free to qualified individuals; write for free sample copy.
Innovation (Space Technology) -- Free. Published by the NASA Office of
Advanced Concepts and Technology. A revised version of the NASA
Office of Commercial Programs newsletter.
Planetary Encounter - in-depth technical coverage of planetary missions,
with diagrams, lists of experiments, interviews with people directly
involved.
World Spaceflight News - in-depth technical coverage of near-Earth
spaceflight. Mostly covers the shuttle: payload manifests, activity
schedules, and post-mission assessment reports for every mission.
Box 98
Sewell, NJ 08080
$30/year US/Canada
$45/year elsewhere
Space (bi-monthly magazine)
British aerospace trade journal. Very good. $75/year.
Space Calendar (weekly newsletter)
Space Daily/Space Fax Daily (newsletter)
Short (1 paragraph) news notes. Available online for a fee
(unknown).
Space Technology Investor/Commercial Space News -- irregular Internet
column on aspects of commercial space business. Free. Also limited
fax and paper edition.
P.O. Box 2452
Seal Beach, CA 90740-1452.
All the following are published by:
Phillips Business Information, Inc.
7811 Montrose Road
Potomac, MC 20854
Aerospace Financial News - $595/year.
Defense Daily - Very good coverage of space and defense issues.
$1395/year.
Space Business News (bi-weekly) - Very good overview of space
business activities. $497/year.
Space Exploration Technology (bi-weekly) - $495/year.
Space Station News (bi-weekly) - $497/year.
UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS
Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
groups (or others not mentioned) for inclusion in the answer is
encouraged to do so.
AAS - American Astronautical Society
Other groups not mentioned above
NEXT: FAQ #14/15 - How to become an astronaut
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1315 Interest Groups Publications
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csgroups_733694492
Expires 6 May 1993 200132 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 354
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Archivename spacegroups
Lastmodified Date 930401 143908
SPACE ACTIVISTINTERESTRESEARCH GROUPS AND SPACE PUBLICATIONS
GROUPS
AIA Aerospace Industry Association Professional group with primary
membership of major aerospace firms Headquartered in the DC area
Acts as the voice of the aerospace industry and its opinions
are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of
the firms in AIA
[address needed]
AIAA American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Professional association with somewhere about 3000040000
members 65 local chapters around the country largest chapters
are DC area 3000 members LA 2100 members San Francisco 2000
members SeattleNW 1500 Houston 1200 and Orange County
1200 plus student chapters Not a union but acts to represent
aviation and space professionals engineers managers financial
types nationwide Holds over 30 conferences a year on space and
aviation topics publishes technical Journals Aerospace Journal
Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets etc technical reference books
and is _THE_ source on current aerospace state of the art through
their published papers and proceedings Also offers continuing
education classes on aerospace design Has over 60 technical
committees and over 30 committees for industry standards AIAA acts
as a professional society offers a centralized resumejobs
function provides classes on job search offers lowcost health and
life insurance and lobbies for appropriate legislation AIAA was
one of the major organizations pushing for IRAs Individual
Retirement Accounts Very active public policy arm works
directly with the media congress and government agencies as a
legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace
technology technical issues Reasonably nonpartisan in that they
represent the industry as a whole and not a single company
organization or viewpoint
Membership 70yr student memberships are less
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
The Aerospace Center
370 LEnfant Promenade SW
Washington DC 200770820
2026467400
AMSAT develops small satellites since the 1960s for a variety of
uses by amateur radio enthusiasts Has various publications
supplies QuickTrak satellite tracking software for PCMacAmiga etc
Amateur Satellite Corporation AMSAT
PO Box 27
Washington DC 20044
3015896062
ASERA Australian Space Engineering and Research Association An
Australian nonprofit organisation to coordinate promote and
conduct space RD projects in Australia involving both Australian
and international primarily university collaborators Activities
include the development of sounding rockets small satellites
especially microsatellites highaltitude research balloons and
appropriate payloads Provides student projects at all levels and
is open to any person or organisation interested in participating
Publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal
Membership A100 dual subscription
Subscriptions A25 newsletter only A50 journal only
ASERA Ltd
PO Box 184
Ryde NSW Australia 2112
email lindleysydditcsiroau
BIS British Interplanetary Society Probably the oldest prospace
group BIS publishes two excellent journals _Spaceflight_ covering
current space activities and the _Journal of the BIS_ containing
technical papers on space activities from nearterm space probes to
interstellar missions BIS has published a design study for an
interstellar probe called _Daedalus_
British Interplanetary Society
2729 South Lambeth Road
London SW8 1SZ
ENGLAND
No dues information available at present
ISU International Space University ISU is a nonprofit international
graduatelevel educational institution dedicated to promoting the
peaceful exploration and development of space through multicultural
and multidisciplinary space education and research For further
information on ISUs summer session program or Permanent Campus
activities please send messages to informationisuisunetedu or
contact the ISU Executive Offices at
International Space University
955 Massachusetts Avenue 7th Floor
Cambridge MA 02139
6173541987 phone
6173547666 fax
L5 Society defunct Founded by Keith and Carolyn Henson in 1975 to
advocate space colonization Its major success was in preventing US
participation in the UN Moon Treaty in the late 1970s Merged with
the National Space Institute in 1987 forming the National Space
Society
NSC National Space Club Open for general membership but not well
known at all Primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace
industry Acts as information conduit and social gathering group
Active in DC with a chapter in LA Monthly meetings with invited
speakers who are heavy hitters in the field Annual Outlook on
Space conference is _the_ definitive source of data on government
annual planning for space programs Cheap membership approx
20yr
[address needed]
NSS the National Space Society NSS is a prospace group distinguished
by its network of local chapters Supports a general agenda of space
development and maninspace including the NASA space station
Publishes _Ad Astra_ a monthly glossy magazine and runs Shuttle
launch tours and Space Hotline telephone services A major sponsor
of the annual space development conference Associated with
Spacecause and Spacepac political lobbying organizations
Membership 18 youthsenior 35 regular
National Space Society
Membership Department
922 Pennsylvania Avenue SE
Washington DC 200032140
2025431900
Planetary Society founded by Carl Sagan The largest space advocacy
group Publishes _Planetary Report_ a monthly glossy and has
supported SETI hardware development financially Agenda is primarily
support of space science recently amended to include an
international manned mission to Mars
The Planetary Society
65 North Catalina Avenue
Pasadena CA 91106
Membership 35year
SSI the Space Studies Institute founded by Dr Gerard ONeill
Physicist Freeman Dyson took over the Presidency of SSI after
ONeills death in 1992 Publishes _SSI Update_ a bimonthly
newsletter describing workinprogress Conducts a research program
including massdrivers lunar mining processes and simulants
composites from lunar materials solar power satellites Runs the
biennial Princeton Conference on Space Manufacturing
Membership 25year Senior Associates 100year and up fund most
SSI research
Space Studies Institute
258 Rosedale Road
PO Box 82
Princeton NJ 08540
SEDS Students for the Exploration and Development of Space Founded in
1980 at MIT and Princeton SEDS is a chapterbased prospace
organization at high schools and universities around the world
Entirely student run Each chapter is independent and coordinates
its own local activities Nationally SEDS runs a scholarship
competition design contests and holds an annual international
conference and meeting in late summer
Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
MIT Room W20445
77 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge MA 02139
6172538897
email odysseyathenamitedu
Dues determined by local chapter
SPACECAUSE A political lobbying organization and part of the NSS
Family of Organizations Publishes a bimonthly newsletter
Spacecause News Annual dues is 25 Members also receive a discount
on _The Space Activists Handbook_ Activities to support prospace
legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting
with legislative staff Spacecause primarily operates in the
legislative process
National Office West Coast Office
Spacecause Spacecause
922 Pennsylvania Ave SE 3435 Ocean Park Blvd
Washington DC 20003 Suite 201S
2025431900 Santa Monica CA 90405
SPACEPAC A political action committee and part of the NSS Family of
Organizations Spacepac researches issues policies and candidates
Each year updates _The Space Activists Handbook_ Current Handbook
price is 25 While Spacepac does not have a membership it does
have regional contacts to coordinate local activity Spacepac
primarily operates in the election process contributing money and
volunteers to prospace candidates
Spacepac
922 Pennsylvania Ave SE
Washington DC 20003
2025431900
UNITED STATES SPACE FOUNDATION a public nonprofit organization
supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting
international education understanding and support of space The
group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested
in education Other projects include developing lesson plans that
use space to teach other basic skills such as reading Publishes
Spacewatch a monthly BW glossy magazine of USSF events and
general space news Annual dues
Charter 50 100 first year
Individual 35
Teacher 29
College student 20
HSJr High 10
Elementary 5
Founder 1000
Life Member
United States Space Foundation
PO Box 1838
Colorado Springs CO 80901
7195501000
WORLD SPACE FOUNDATION has been designing and building a solarsail
spacecraft for longer than any similar group many JPL employees lend
their talents to this project WSF also provides partial funding for the
Palomar Sky Survey an extremely successful search for nearEarth
asteroids Publishes Foundation News and Foundation Astronautics
Notebook each a quarterly 48 page newsletter Contributing Associate
minimum of 15year but more money always welcome to support projects
World Space Foundation
Post Office Box Y
South Pasadena California 91301
PUBLICATIONS
Aerospace Daily McGrawHill
Very good coverage of aerospace and space issues Approx 1400yr
Air Space Smithsonian bimonthly magazine
Box 53261
Boulder CO 803323261
18year US 24year international
ESA The European Space Agency publishes a variety of periodicals
generally available free of charge A document describing them in
more detail is in the Ames SPACE archive in
pubSPACEFAQESAPublications
Final Frontier massmarket bimonthly magazine history book reviews
generalinterest articles eg The 7 Wonders of the Solar System
Everything you always wanted to know about military space
programs etc
Final Frontier Publishing Co
PO Box 534
Mt Morris IL 610547852
1495year US 1995 Canada 2395 elsewhere
Space News weekly magazine covers US civil and military space
programs Said to have good political and business but spotty
technical coverage
Space News
Springfield VA 221590500
7036427330
75year may have discounts for NSSSSI members
Journal of the Astronautical Sciences and Space Times publications of
the American Astronautical Society No details
AAS Business Office
6352 Rolling Mill Place Suite 102
Springfield VA 22152
7038660020
GPS World semimonthly reports on current and new uses of GPS news
and analysis of the system and policies affecting it and technical
and product issues shaping GPS applications
GPS World
859 Willamette St
PO Box 10460
Eugene OR 974402460
5033431200
Free to qualified individuals write for free sample copy
Innovation Space Technology Free Published by the NASA Office of
Advanced Concepts and Technology A revised version of the NASA
Office of Commercial Programs newsletter
Planetary Encounter indepth technical coverage of planetary missions
with diagrams lists of experiments interviews with people directly
involved
World Spaceflight News indepth technical coverage of nearEarth
spaceflight Mostly covers the shuttle payload manifests activity
schedules and postmission assessment reports for every mission
Box 98
Sewell NJ 08080
30year USCanada
45year elsewhere
Space bimonthly magazine
British aerospace trade journal Very good 75year
Space Calendar weekly newsletter
Space DailySpace Fax Daily newsletter
Short 1 paragraph news notes Available online for a fee
unknown
Space Technology InvestorCommercial Space News irregular Internet
column on aspects of commercial space business Free Also limited
fax and paper edition
PO Box 2452
Seal Beach CA 907401452
All the following are published by
Phillips Business Information Inc
7811 Montrose Road
Potomac MC 20854
Aerospace Financial News 595year
Defense Daily Very good coverage of space and defense issues
1395year
Space Business News biweekly Very good overview of space
business activities 497year
Space Exploration Technology biweekly 495year
Space Station News biweekly 497year
UNDOCUMENTED GROUPS
Anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following
groups or others not mentioned for inclusion in the answer is
encouraged to do so
AAS American Astronautical Society
Other groups not mentioned above
NEXT FAQ 1415 How to become an astronaut
preprocess doc From: swoithe@crackle.uucp (Stan Woithe)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer Update - 04/14/93
Organization: University of Adelaide
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: crackle.itd.adelaide.edu.au
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL
Hiya
I'm a VERY amuture astronomer in Adelaide Australia, and today, I heard some
very interesting and exciting news from a local program on TV. As I couldn't
find anything on it on the news server, I have posted this. However, if it is
old information, tell me, and ill sue the TV station for saying they are
'Up to date' ;-)
(Also, my news server could be slow. . so . . .!!!
I only caught the end of the article, so all the information on the topic
is not known to me at the moment.
The news is of a small 'psudo' planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a
Hawiian obsevatory, supposably 'recently' - acording to the report.
It was meant to be about 150miles in diamater, and a faily large distance
from the plutos orbit. (it had a computer drawing, and the orbit distance
from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest
apart. This is all I found out about it. OH it is called Karna. (un-officially
).
CAn anyone give any more information to me on it???
Thanx.
Brendan Woithe
swoithe@crackle.aelmg.adelaide.edu.au
BTW - if this is old news, does anyone know a good lawyer. . . .8)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From swoithecrackleuucp Stan Woithe
Subject Re Mars Observer Update 041493
Organization University of Adelaide
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost crackleitdadelaideeduau
Keywords Mars Observer JPL
Hiya
Im a VERY amuture astronomer in Adelaide Australia and today I heard some
very interesting and exciting news from a local program on TV As I couldnt
find anything on it on the news server I have posted this However if it is
old information tell me and ill sue the TV station for saying they are
Up to date
Also my news server could be slow so
I only caught the end of the article so all the information on the topic
is not known to me at the moment
The news is of a small psudo planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a
Hawiian obsevatory supposably recently acording to the report
It was meant to be about 150miles in diamater and a faily large distance
from the plutos orbit it had a computer drawing and the orbit distance
from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest
apart This is all I found out about it OH it is called Karna unofficially
CAn anyone give any more information to me on it
Thanx
Brendan Woithe
swoithecrackleaelmgadelaideeduau
BTW if this is old news does anyone know a good lawyer 8
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <<Pompous ass
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
[...]
>>The "`little' things" above were in reference to Germany, clearly. People
>>said that there were similar things in Germany, but no one could name any.
>That's not true. I gave you two examples. One was the rather
>pevasive anti-semitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
>arrived. The other was the system of social ranks that were used
>in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
>of the population.
These don't seem like "little things" to me. At least, they are orders
worse than the motto. Do you think that the motto is a "little thing"
that will lead to worse things?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re The `little things above were in reference to Germany clearly People
said that there were similar things in Germany but no one could name any
Thats not true I gave you two examples One was the rather
pevasive antisemitism in German Christianity well before Hitler
arrived The other was the system of social ranks that were used
in Imperail Germany and Austria to distinguish Jews from the rest
of the population
These dont seem like little things to me At least they are orders
worse than the motto Do you think that the motto is a little thing
that will lead to worse things
keith
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: IF ONLY HE KNEW
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 20
prudenti@juncol.juniata.edu wrote:
: Upon arriving at home, Joseph probably took advantage of Mary...had his way
: with her so to speak. Of course, word of this couldn't get around so Mary,
: being the highly-religious follower that she was decided "Hey, I'll just say
: that GOD impregnated me...no one will ever know!"
:
: Thus, seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul, she was believed...
:
: And then came Jesus, the child born from violence.
:
:
:
Dave,
Can you explain the purpose of your post, I can't imagine what you
must have thougt it meant.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re IF ONLY HE KNEW
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 20
prudentijuncoljuniataedu wrote
Upon arriving at home Joseph probably took advantage of Maryhad his way
with her so to speak Of course word of this couldnt get around so Mary
being the highlyreligious follower that she was decided Hey Ill just say
that GOD impregnated meno one will ever know
Thus seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed
And then came Jesus the child born from violence
Dave
Can you explain the purpose of your post I cant imagine what you
must have thougt it meant
Bill
preprocess doc From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Stereo Pix of planets?
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 5
Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces? GIFs preferred, but any will do. I'm
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos, Deimos, Mars
and the Moon (in that order).
Thanks.
after prepro From arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler
Subject Stereo Pix of planets
Organization California State University Sacramento
Lines 5
Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces GIFs preferred but any will do Im
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos Deimos Mars
and the Moon in that order
Thanks
preprocess doc From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Lines: 27
cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:
>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation
>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and
>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis.
>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people
>experience.
I agree, I reckon it's television and the increase in fundamentalism.. You
think its the increase in pre-marital sex... others thinks its because
psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent
criminals con them into letting them out into the streets... others think
it's the increase in designer drugs... others think it's a communist plot.
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control. We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. But one
things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage.
Jeff.
>>
>> Fred Rice <-- a Muslim, giving his point of view.
>> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
>cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu
after prepro From ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
NntpPostingHost krakenitcgueduau
Organization ITC Griffith University Brisbane Australia
Lines 27
cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes
Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people
experience
I agree I reckon its television and the increase in fundamentalism You
think its the increase in premarital sex others thinks its because
psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent
criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think
its the increase in designer drugs others think its a communist plot
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing But one
things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage
Jeff
Fred Rice a Muslim giving his point of view
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
cfaehlvestaunmedu
preprocess doc zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!juliet.caltech.edu!lmh
Subject: Re: Americans and Evolution
From: lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 18
In article <1APR199313404295@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu<, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes...
<In article <31MAR199321091163@juliet.caltech.edu<, lmh@juliet.caltech.edu (Henling, Lawrence M.) writes...
<<Atheism (Greek 'a' not + 'theos' god) Belief that there is no god.
<<Agnosticism (Greek 'a' not + ~ 'gnostein ?' know) Belief that it is
<< not possible to determine if there is a god.
<No. Agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive belief--a
<belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods.
<That's a belief I'm inclined to reject. You have also defined atheism
<here as a positive belief--that there is no god. A fairly large number
<of atheists on alt.atheism reject this definition, instead holding that
<atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god. Michael Martin, in
<_Atheism: A Philosophical Justification_, distinguishes strong atheism
My mistake. I will have to get a newer dictionary and read the
follow up line.
larry henling lmh@shakes.caltech.edu
after prepro zaphodmpsohiostateeduuscelroyjplnasagovnntpservercaltechedujulietcaltechedulmh
Subject Re Americans and Evolution
From lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M
Distribution worldlocal
Organization California Institute of Technology
NNTPPostingHost julietcaltechedu
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Lines 18
In article 1APR199313404295skybluccitarizonaedu lippardskybluccitarizonaedu James J Lippard writes
In article 31MAR199321091163julietcaltechedu lmhjulietcaltechedu Henling Lawrence M writes
Atheism Greek a not theos god Belief that there is no god
Agnosticism Greek a not gnostein know Belief that it is
not possible to determine if there is a god
No Agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive beliefa
belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods
Thats a belief Im inclined to reject You have also defined atheism
here as a positive beliefthat there is no god A fairly large number
of atheists on altatheism reject this definition instead holding that
atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god Michael Martin in
_Atheism A Philosophical Justification_ distinguishes strong atheism
My mistake I will have to get a newer dictionary and read the
follow up line
larry henling lmhshakescaltechedu
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Alaska Pipeline and Space Station!
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 45
In <1pq7rj$q2u@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <1993Apr5.160550.7592@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>|
>|I think this would be a great way to build it, but unfortunately
>|current spending rules don't permit it to be workable. For this to
>|work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
>|minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
>|enough to make this attractive to a private firm. Since they
>|generally can't allocate money except one year at a time, the
>|government can't provide such a tenant guarantee.
>Fred.
> Try reading a bit. THe government does lots of multi year
>contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses. They just like to be
>damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
>contract. THe reason they aren't cutting defense spending as much
>as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
>Multi year contracts, that it's now cheaper to just finish them out.
I don't have to "try reading a bit", Pat. I *work* as a government
contractor and know what the rules are like. Yes, they sign some
(damned few -- which is why everyone is always having to go to
Washington to see about next week's funding) multi-year contracts;
they also aren't willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties
when they *do* decide to cut the multi-year contract and not pay on it
(which can happen arbitrarily at any time, no matter what previous
plans were) to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a
private space station with the government as the expected prime
occupant.
I'd like a source for that statement about "the reason they aren't
cutting defense spending as much as they would like"; I just don't buy
it. The other thing I find a bit 'funny' about your posting, Pat, is
that several other people answered the question pretty much the same
way I did; mine is the one you comment (and incorrectly, I think) on.
I think that says a lot. You and Tommy should move in together.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re Alaska Pipeline and Space Station
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 45
In 1pq7rjq2uaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 1993Apr51605507592mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
I think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately
current spending rules dont permit it to be workable For this to
work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain
minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk
enough to make this attractive to a private firm Since they
generally cant allocate money except one year at a time the
government cant provide such a tenant guarantee
Fred
Try reading a bit THe government does lots of multi year
contracts with Penalty for cancellation clauses They just like to be
damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year
contract THe reason they arent cutting defense spending as much
as they would like is the Reagan administration signed enough
Multi year contracts that its now cheaper to just finish them out
I dont have to try reading a bit Pat I work as a government
contractor and know what the rules are like Yes they sign some
damned few which is why everyone is always having to go to
Washington to see about next weeks funding multiyear contracts
they also arent willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties
when they do decide to cut the multiyear contract and not pay on it
which can happen arbitrarily at any time no matter what previous
plans were to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a
private space station with the government as the expected prime
occupant
Id like a source for that statement about the reason they arent
cutting defense spending as much as they would like I just dont buy
it The other thing I find a bit funny about your posting Pat is
that several other people answered the question pretty much the same
way I did mine is the one you comment and incorrectly I think on
I think that says a lot You and Tommy should move in together
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: KORESH IS GOD!
In-Reply-To: mathew's message of Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14: 15:20 +0100
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
<930416.141520.7h1.rusnews.w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 12
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:15:20 +0100, mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> said:
m> The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once he's
m> finished writing a sequel to the Bible.
Also, it's the 16th now. Can the Feds get him on tax evasion? I don't
remember hearing about him running to the Post Office last night.
--
Ed McCreary ,__o
edm@twisto.compaq.com _-\_<,
"If it were not for laughter, there would be no Tao." (*)/'(*)
after prepro From edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary
Subject Re KORESH IS GOD
InReplyTo mathews message of Fri 16 Apr 1993 14 1520 0100
Organization Compaq Computer Corp
9304161415207h1rusnewsw165wmantiscouk
Lines 12
On Fri 16 Apr 1993 141520 0100 mathew said
m The latest news seems to be that Koresh will give himself up once hes
m finished writing a sequel to the Bible
Also its the 16th now Can the Feds get him on tax evasion I dont
remember hearing about him running to the Post Office last night
Ed McCreary __o
edmtwistocompaqcom _\_
If it were not for laughter there would be no Tao
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: ISLAM: a clearer view
Lines: 25
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 25
In article <16BAFC876.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
>Subject: Re: ISLAM: a clearer view
>Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:15:18 GMT
>In article <healta.60.734567658@saturn.wwc.edu>
>healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>
>>>Sorry, it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is
>>>the reason why torture was introduced outside the Romanic countries
>>>at the end of the Middle Ages. In other words, the Holy Mother Church
>>>which is lead infallibly by the Holy Ghost has spread it.
>>
>>The Roman Catholic Church claims to be lead by the "infallable" pope.
>>That's why she (the RC Church) has done so many wicked things to Xtians and
>>non-believers alike.
>
>
>The rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based
>on the claim above. The dogma about the pope is of Jesuitic origin and
>has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century.
> Benedikt
You're right. Thanks for enlightening me.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re ISLAM a clearer view
Lines 25
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 25
In article 16BAFC876I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re ISLAM a clearer view
Date Tue 13 Apr 1993 131518 GMT
In article
healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
Sorry it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is
the reason why torture was introduced outside the Romanic countries
at the end of the Middle Ages In other words the Holy Mother Church
which is lead infallibly by the Holy Ghost has spread it
The Roman Catholic Church claims to be lead by the infallable pope
Thats why she the RC Church has done so many wicked things to Xtians and
nonbelievers alike
The rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based
on the claim above The dogma about the pope is of Jesuitic origin and
has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century
Benedikt
Youre right Thanks for enlightening me
Tammy
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: sgi
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <115565@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
|> In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
|> >ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
|> >community in the Uk and elsewhere.
|>
|> >jon.
|>
|> Grow up, childish propagandist.
Gregg, I'm really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things aren't quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you, but exactly who is being childish here is
open to question.
BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank -
what will someone bet me they weren't "real" Islamic owners and
operators? - and yet it actually turned out to be a long-running
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors.
And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interest-motivated western bank down
the street? Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned
and operated bank couldn't possibly cheat them?
So please don't try to con us into thinking that it will all
work out right next time.
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization sgi
Lines 31
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 115565buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere
jon
Grow up childish propagandist
Gregg Im really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice
things arent quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim
them to be upsets you but exactly who is being childish here is
open to question
BBCI was an example of an Islamically owned and operated bank
what will someone bet me they werent real Islamic owners and
operators and yet it actually turned out to be a longrunning
and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often
quite naive depositors
And why did these naive depositors put their life savings into
BCCI rather than the nasty interestmotivated western bank down
the street Could it be that they believed an Islamically owned
and operated bank couldnt possibly cheat them
So please dont try to con us into thinking that it will all
work out right next time
jon
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: army in space
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization.
They were the precursors to SDIO. and still exist under
that umbrella. Army Signal Corp's and DCA defense Comm Agency
oops DISA, they just changed names do space work. that's
the point of all those defense comm sats.
But don't worry, there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging,
somehow you'll end up there ;-)
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re army in space
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 10
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
There is the Army Ballistic Missile Defense Organization
They were the precursors to SDIO and still exist under
that umbrella Army Signal Corps and DCA defense Comm Agency
oops DISA they just changed names do space work thats
the point of all those defense comm sats
But dont worry there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging
somehow youll end up there
preprocess doc Subject: <None>
From: bioccnt@otago.ac.nz
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
Nntp-Posting-Host: thorin.otago.ac.nz
Lines: 12
Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation?
He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
bidder....."
Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated.
Clive Trotman
after prepro Subject
From bioccntotagoacnz
Organization University of Otago Dunedin New Zealand
NntpPostingHost thorinotagoacnz
Lines 12
Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation
He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder
Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated
Clive Trotman
preprocess doc From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: Shuttle oxygen (was Budget Astronaut)
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 29
: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
: >There is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a
: >breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down, even
: >if there is something like a 5cm hole in the wall that nobody tries
: >to plug.
Josh Hopkins (jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) replied:
: Wow.
: Double wow. Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall?
Personnally, I don't know, but I'd like to try it sometime.
Programmatically, yes, we can land an Orbiter with a 5 cm hole in
the wall -- provided that the thing which caused 5 cm hole didn't
cause a Crit 1 failure on some of the internal systems. There are
a few places where a 5 cm hole would cause a Bad Day -- especially
if the 5 cm hole went all the way through the Orbiter and out the
other side, as could easily happen with a meteor strike. But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de-orbit
to the next available landing site.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"NASA turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction
into fact" -- Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator
after prepro From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re Shuttle oxygen was Budget Astronaut
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 29
henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
There is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a
breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down even
if there is something like a 5cm hole in the wall that nobody tries
to plug
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu replied
Wow
Double wow Can you land a shuttle with a 5cm hole in the wall
Personnally I dont know but Id like to try it sometime
Programmatically yes we can land an Orbiter with a 5 cm hole in
the wall provided that the thing which caused 5 cm hole didnt
cause a Crit 1 failure on some of the internal systems There are
a few places where a 5 cm hole would cause a Bad Day especially
if the 5 cm hole went all the way through the Orbiter and out the
other side as could easily happen with a meteor strike But a
hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately deorbit
to the next available landing site
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
NASA turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction
into fact Daniel S Goldin NASA Administrator
preprocess doc From: Mehrtens_T@msm.cdx.mot.com
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Nntp-Posting-Host: tom_mac.prds.cdx.mot.com
Organization: Motorola_Codex
Lines: 25
In article <1qkmkiINNep3@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug
Mohney) writes:
>In article <1993Apr15.204210.26022@mksol.dseg.ti.com>,
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>>
>>There are actually only two of us. I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary. Oh
yeah,
>>this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
>
>Damn! So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
>LOT of the K-MART!
> Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
> -- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
They just tore down the Kmart near my house (putting in a new suptermarket). I
heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place! 8-{)
Tom
I liked this one I read a while ago...
"Data sheet: HSN-3000 Nuclear Event Detector. The [NED] senses the gamma
radiation pulse [from a] nuclear weapon." As if we wouldn't notice...
after prepro From Mehrtens_Tmsmcdxmotcom
Subject Re How many read scispace
NntpPostingHost tom_macprdscdxmotcom
Organization Motorola_Codex
Lines 25
In article 1qkmkiINNep3mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug
Mohney writes
In article 1993Apr1520421026022mksoldsegticom
pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron writes
There are actually only two of us I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary Oh
yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby
Damn So it was YOU who was drinking beer with ROBERT McELWANE in the PARKING
LOT of the KMART
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
They just tore down the Kmart near my house putting in a new suptermarket I
heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place 8
Tom
I liked this one I read a while ago
Data sheet HSN3000 Nuclear Event Detector The [NED] senses the gamma
radiation pulse [from a] nuclear weapon As if we wouldnt notice
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution.
>I realise that this is widely held belief in America, but in fact
>the clause on cruel and unusual punishments, like a lot of the
>rest, was lifted from the English Bill of Rights of 1689.
Just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn't spend
much time on the wording.
>>We have already looked in the dictionary to define the word. Isn't
>>this sufficient?
>Since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to
>inflict injury or grief counted as "cruel", sure.
People can be described as cruel in this way, but punishments cannot.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Cruel was Re They spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the Constitution
I realise that this is widely held belief in America but in fact
the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the
rest was lifted from the English Bill of Rights of 1689
Just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didnt spend
much time on the wording
We have already looked in the dictionary to define the word Isnt
this sufficient
Since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to
inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure
People can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot
keith
preprocess doc From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Distribution: sci
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 5
If the new Kuiper belt object *is* called 'Karla', the next
one should be called 'Smiley'.
James Nicoll
after prepro From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Western Ontario London
Distribution sci
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 5
If the new Kuiper belt object is called Karla the next
one should be called Smiley
James Nicoll
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
From: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)
<1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU><1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 48
In article <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com
responds to a lot of grief given to him
>In article <1993Apr3.095220.24632@leland.Stanford.EDU>,
>galahad@leland.Stanford.EDU (Scott Compton)
a.k.a. "The Sagemaster"
[ . . .]
>But then I ask, So? Where is this relevant to my discussion in
>answering John's question of why? Why are there genetic diseases,
>and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
>babies to develop antibodies. Is it God's fault? (the original
>question) -- I say no, it is not.
Most of Scotty's followup *was* irrelevant to the original question,
but this is not unusual, as threads often quickly evolve away from
the original topic. What I could not understand is why Jim spent so
much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies.
[ . . . ]
>> May I ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from?
[ . . . ]
>
>By "collective" I was referring to the idea that God works with
>humanity on two levels, individually and collectively. If mankind
>as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of
>mankind),
Well, I guess hypothetical Adam was "the majority of mankind"
seeing how he was the ONLY man at the time.
>then God will allow the consequences of that action to
>affect mankind as a whole. If you didn't understand that, then I
>apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion.
I understand what you mean by "collective," but I think it is an
insane perversion of justice. What sort of judge would punish the
descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor?
>If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
>response, send a copy to Jim_Brown@oz.bmd.trw.com. I can't read
>a.a. every day, and some posts slip by. Thanks.
Well, I must admit that you probably read a.a. more often than I read
the Bible these days. But you missed a couple of good followups to
your post. I'm sending you a personal copy of my followup which I
hope you will respond to publically in a.a.
John
The Sageless
after prepro Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
From J5Jpsuvmpsuedu John A Johnson
1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom
Organization Penn State University
Lines 48
In article 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom
responds to a lot of grief given to him
In article 1993Apr309522024632lelandStanfordEDU
galahadlelandStanfordEDU Scott Compton
aka The Sagemaster
[ ]
But then I ask So Where is this relevant to my discussion in
answering Johns question of why Why are there genetic diseases
and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require
babies to develop antibodies Is it Gods fault the original
question I say no it is not
Most of Scottys followup was irrelevant to the original question
but this is not unusual as threads often quickly evolve away from
the original topic What I could not understand is why Jim spent so
much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies
[ ]
May I ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from
[ ]
By collective I was referring to the idea that God works with
humanity on two levels individually and collectively If mankind
as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of
mankind
Well I guess hypothetical Adam was the majority of mankind
seeing how he was the ONLY man at the time
then God will allow the consequences of that action to
affect mankind as a whole If you didnt understand that then I
apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion
I understand what you mean by collective but I think it is an
insane perversion of justice What sort of judge would punish the
descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor
If you want to be sure that I read your post and to provide a
response send a copy to Jim_Brownozbmdtrwcom I cant read
aa every day and some posts slip by Thanks
Well I must admit that you probably read aa more often than I read
the Bible these days But you missed a couple of good followups to
your post Im sending you a personal copy of my followup which I
hope you will respond to publically in aa
John
The Sageless
preprocess doc From: cfairman@leland.Stanford.EDU (Carolyn Jean Fairman)
Subject: Re: *** The list of Biblical contradictions
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 26
joslin@pogo.isp.pitt.edu (David Joslin) writes:
>Someone writes:
>>I found a list of Biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit,
>>but now I'd like some help with it.
>I'm curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve.
It's about time. Why do atheists spend so much time paying attention
to the bible, anyway?
Face it, there are better things to do with your life! I used to
chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity
of people believing in it as truth, etc. Why do we spend so little
time on the Mayan religion, or the Native Americans? Heck, the Native
Americans have signifigantly more interesting myths. Also, what
about the Egyptians.
I think we pay so much attention to Christianity because we accept
it as a _religion_ and not a mythology, which I find more accurate.
I try to be tolerant. It gets very hard when someone places a book
under my nose and tells me it's special. It's not.
Carolyn
after prepro From cfairmanlelandStanfordEDU Carolyn Jean Fairman
Subject Re The list of Biblical contradictions
Organization DSG Stanford University CA 94305 USA
Lines 26
joslinpogoisppittedu David Joslin writes
Someone writes
I found a list of Biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit
but now Id like some help with it
Im curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve
Its about time Why do atheists spend so much time paying attention
to the bible anyway
Face it there are better things to do with your life I used to
chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity
of people believing in it as truth etc Why do we spend so little
time on the Mayan religion or the Native Americans Heck the Native
Americans have signifigantly more interesting myths Also what
about the Egyptians
I think we pay so much attention to Christianity because we accept
it as a _religion_ and not a mythology which I find more accurate
I try to be tolerant It gets very hard when someone places a book
under my nose and tells me its special Its not
Carolyn
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: SIRTF Mission is Still Alive
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 114
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: SIRTF, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993
SIRTF is still very much in business
By Mark Whalen
In these times of extra-tight NASA budgets, the very
survival of a number of missions has been uncertain. But thanks
to major design refinements implemented in recent months, JPL's
Space Infrared Telescope Facility (SIRTF) -- a major project
considered to be in trouble a couple of years ago -- is "alive
and well," according to Project Scientist Michael Werner.
A lighter spacecraft, revised orbit and shorter mission have
added up to a less expensive project with "tremendous scientific
power" and a bright future, said Werner.
Designed as a follow-up to the highly successful Infrared
Astronomical Satellite (IRAS) and Cosmic Background Explorer
(COBE) missions, SIRTF -- a cryogenically cooled observatory for
infrared astronomy from space -- is scheduled for launch in 2000
or 2001 if plans proceed as scheduled.
IRAS' pioneering work in space-based infrared astronomy 10
years ago allowed astronomers to view the Milky Way as never
before and revealed, among other things, 60,000 galaxies and 25
comets. It provided a sky survey 1,000 times more sensitive than
any previously available from ground-based observations. COBE has
measured the infrared and microwave background radiation on large
angular scales, and revealed new facts about the early universe.
But to illuminate SIRTF's potential, Jim Evans, JPL's
manager of Astrophysics and Fundamental Physics Pre-Projects,
recently said that the project is "1,000 to 1 million times more
capable than IRAS," based on technological advances in infrared
detector arrays.
However, despite the enormous strides in infrared
exploration SIRTF promised, and the fact that it was cited as the
highest priority new initiative for all of astronomy in the 1990s
(by the National Academy of Sciences), it took a "diet or die"
directive from NASA Headquarters last year to keep the project
going, according to Werner.
The project is now known as Atlas SIRTF, based on the key
factor in its new design: The satellite will orbit the sun
instead of the Earth, permitting the use of an Atlas rocket
launch instead of the formerly proposed and heavier Titan. "The
main advantage of the solar orbit is that you can use all of your
launch capability for boosting the payload -- you don't have to
carry up a second rocket to circularize the orbit," Werner said.
The other advantage to a solar orbit, he said, is that "it's in a
better thermal environment, away from the heat of the Earth."
Additional major changes in SIRTF's redesign include
shortening the mission from five to three years and building a
spacecraft that is less than half as heavy as in the original
plan -- Atlas SIRTF will weigh 2,470 kilograms (5,400 pounds)
compared to Titan SIRTF's 5,500 kilograms (12,100 pounds).
All of that adds up to "a less stressful launch
environment," Werner said, and a cost savings of more than $200
million for the launch, in addition to increased savings in the
design of the smaller, less massive spacecraft.
Werner said SIRTF's redesign came as a result of Congress'
telling NASA "you're trying to do too many things. If you want us
to support SIRTF, which is a good project, develop a plan to see
how it fits into (NASA's) overall strategy."
Shortly thereafter, SIRTF was named as NASA's highest
priority "flagship" scientific mission by the interdisciplinary
Space Sciences Advisory Committee, in addition to the blessing
from the National Academy of Sciences.
While the spacecraft and its instruments required descoping
to keep the project alive, SIRTF's major scientific contribution
always promised to come about from its advanced infrared detector
arrays, which will allow images to be developed "tens of
thousands of times faster" than before, according to Evans.
"Up until a couple of years ago," Werner said, "all infrared
astronomy was done with single detectors -- or very small arrays
of individually assembled detectors. Since then, the Department
of Defense has developed a program to produce arrays of tens or
hundreds of thousands of detectors, rather than just a few, and
those are very well suited for use on SIRTF."
Werner noted that in addition to dealing with budget
pressures, Congress is currently watching NASA projects with an
eye out for any "technological spinoff."
"On that question, I think we have some things to say," he
said, "because the detectors we're using are straight off various
military developments. Also, SIRTF will be built by the U.S.
aerospace industry, and it's a real technological and engineering
challenge in addition to being a tremendous scientific project.
"SIRTF will be used by the entire astronomical community,"
Werner added, but the revised three-year mission "puts a premium
on observing time. We have to educate the user community and
develop a program that involves early surveys and quick
turnaround of the data."
Werner said the downsizing of the project required a
reduction in scope and complexity of SIRTF's three instruments --
the infrared spectrograph, infrared array camera and multiband
imaging photometer. However, these reductions will only result in
losses of efficiency rather than capability, he said.
The project hopes to start a "Phase B" activity in 1995,
which will provide a detailed concept for development and design.
Building the hardware would begin about two years later.
Projected cost estimates, Evans said, are $850 million-$950
million.
"I am very optimistic about SIRTF," he said. "It will
provide a tremendous return for the investment."
Werner added that an additional benefit from the project
will be the "enrichment of our intellectual and cultural
environment. People on the street are very interested in
astronomy ... black holes, the possibility of life on other
planets, the origin of the universe ... and those are the kind of
questions SIRTF will help answer."
###
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject SIRTF Mission is Still Alive
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 114
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords SIRTF JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993
SIRTF is still very much in business
By Mark Whalen
In these times of extratight NASA budgets the very
survival of a number of missions has been uncertain But thanks
to major design refinements implemented in recent months JPLs
Space Infrared Telescope Facility SIRTF a major project
considered to be in trouble a couple of years ago is alive
and well according to Project Scientist Michael Werner
A lighter spacecraft revised orbit and shorter mission have
added up to a less expensive project with tremendous scientific
power and a bright future said Werner
Designed as a followup to the highly successful Infrared
Astronomical Satellite IRAS and Cosmic Background Explorer
COBE missions SIRTF a cryogenically cooled observatory for
infrared astronomy from space is scheduled for launch in 2000
or 2001 if plans proceed as scheduled
IRAS pioneering work in spacebased infrared astronomy 10
years ago allowed astronomers to view the Milky Way as never
before and revealed among other things 60000 galaxies and 25
comets It provided a sky survey 1000 times more sensitive than
any previously available from groundbased observations COBE has
measured the infrared and microwave background radiation on large
angular scales and revealed new facts about the early universe
But to illuminate SIRTFs potential Jim Evans JPLs
manager of Astrophysics and Fundamental Physics PreProjects
recently said that the project is 1000 to 1 million times more
capable than IRAS based on technological advances in infrared
detector arrays
However despite the enormous strides in infrared
exploration SIRTF promised and the fact that it was cited as the
highest priority new initiative for all of astronomy in the 1990s
by the National Academy of Sciences it took a diet or die
directive from NASA Headquarters last year to keep the project
going according to Werner
The project is now known as Atlas SIRTF based on the key
factor in its new design The satellite will orbit the sun
instead of the Earth permitting the use of an Atlas rocket
launch instead of the formerly proposed and heavier Titan The
main advantage of the solar orbit is that you can use all of your
launch capability for boosting the payload you dont have to
carry up a second rocket to circularize the orbit Werner said
The other advantage to a solar orbit he said is that its in a
better thermal environment away from the heat of the Earth
Additional major changes in SIRTFs redesign include
shortening the mission from five to three years and building a
spacecraft that is less than half as heavy as in the original
plan Atlas SIRTF will weigh 2470 kilograms 5400 pounds
compared to Titan SIRTFs 5500 kilograms 12100 pounds
All of that adds up to a less stressful launch
environment Werner said and a cost savings of more than 200
million for the launch in addition to increased savings in the
design of the smaller less massive spacecraft
Werner said SIRTFs redesign came as a result of Congress
telling NASA youre trying to do too many things If you want us
to support SIRTF which is a good project develop a plan to see
how it fits into NASAs overall strategy
Shortly thereafter SIRTF was named as NASAs highest
priority flagship scientific mission by the interdisciplinary
Space Sciences Advisory Committee in addition to the blessing
from the National Academy of Sciences
While the spacecraft and its instruments required descoping
to keep the project alive SIRTFs major scientific contribution
always promised to come about from its advanced infrared detector
arrays which will allow images to be developed tens of
thousands of times faster than before according to Evans
Up until a couple of years ago Werner said all infrared
astronomy was done with single detectors or very small arrays
of individually assembled detectors Since then the Department
of Defense has developed a program to produce arrays of tens or
hundreds of thousands of detectors rather than just a few and
those are very well suited for use on SIRTF
Werner noted that in addition to dealing with budget
pressures Congress is currently watching NASA projects with an
eye out for any technological spinoff
On that question I think we have some things to say he
said because the detectors were using are straight off various
military developments Also SIRTF will be built by the US
aerospace industry and its a real technological and engineering
challenge in addition to being a tremendous scientific project
SIRTF will be used by the entire astronomical community
Werner added but the revised threeyear mission puts a premium
on observing time We have to educate the user community and
develop a program that involves early surveys and quick
turnaround of the data
Werner said the downsizing of the project required a
reduction in scope and complexity of SIRTFs three instruments
the infrared spectrograph infrared array camera and multiband
imaging photometer However these reductions will only result in
losses of efficiency rather than capability he said
The project hopes to start a Phase B activity in 1995
which will provide a detailed concept for development and design
Building the hardware would begin about two years later
Projected cost estimates Evans said are 850 million950
million
I am very optimistic about SIRTF he said It will
provide a tremendous return for the investment
Werner added that an additional benefit from the project
will be the enrichment of our intellectual and cultural
environment People on the street are very interested in
astronomy black holes the possibility of life on other
planets the origin of the universe and those are the kind of
questions SIRTF will help answer
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 34
In article <C5sJDp.F23@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>>This prize isn't big enough to warrent developing a SSTO, but it is
>>enough to do it if the vehicle exists.
>Actually, there are people who will tell you that it *would* be enough
>to do SSTO development, if done privately as a cut-rate operation. Of
>course, they may be over-optimistic.
In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of, I think their
cost estimates are a bit over-optimistic. If nothing else, a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base. It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development. That puts it in the $3G to $5G
range.
>You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
>that would help pay for its development costs.
True it and the contest would result in a much larger market. But I
don't think it would be enough to attract the investors given the
risks involved.
If you could gurantee the SSTO costs and gurantee that it captures
100% of the available launch market, then I think you could
do it.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 34
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
This prize isnt big enough to warrent developing a SSTO but it is
enough to do it if the vehicle exists
Actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough
to do SSTO development if done privately as a cutrate operation Of
course they may be overoptimistic
In spite of my great respect for the people you speak of I think their
cost estimates are a bit overoptimistic If nothing else a working SSTO
is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience
base It therefore seems that SSTO development should cost at least as
much as a typical airliner development That puts it in the 3G to 5G
range
You can also assume that a working SSTO would have other applications
that would help pay for its development costs
True it and the contest would result in a much larger market But I
dont think it would be enough to attract the investors given the
risks involved
If you could gurantee the SSTO costs and gurantee that it captures
100 of the available launch market then I think you could
do it
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 38
In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
|> There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
|> marriage.
...
|>
|> Where is the evidence for my opinions? At the moment, there are just
|> generalities I can cite. For example, I read that in the 20th century,
|> the percentage of youth (and people in general) who suffer from
|> depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies (probably
|> what I was reading referred particularly to the USA). Similarly, one
|> can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
|> in this century in Western societies -- particularly with the "sexual
|> revolution" of the 60's, but even before that I think (otherwise the
|> "sexual revolution" of the 60's would not have been possible),
|> particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
|> Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage. I propose
|> that these two trends -- greater level of general depression in society
|> (and other psychological problems) and greater sexual promiscuity -- are
|> linked, with the latter being a prime cause of the former. I cannot
|> provide any evidence beyond this at this stage, but the whole thesis
|> seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it.
|>
|> Fred Rice <-- a Muslim, giving his point of view.
|> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
I think this is a big leap sex->depression. One example is myself,
where no sex->depression :) But, seriously 1) promiscuity is on a decline,
depression is not and 2) it might be more reasonable to say
depression->promiscuity. I think depression is more likely to come
from emotional problems (relationships, family, job, friends) and
promiscuity is used as an escape.
Since I see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an
emotional bond, I don't see a problem with sex before (not outside of)
marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as
what is expected from a married couple. Of course, this is just
my opinion.
Brian /-|-\
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 38
In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
marriage
Where is the evidence for my opinions At the moment there are just
generalities I can cite For example I read that in the 20th century
the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from
depression has been steadily climbing in Western societies probably
what I was reading referred particularly to the USA Similarly one
can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage
in this century in Western societies particularly with the sexual
revolution of the 60s but even before that I think otherwise the
sexual revolution of the 60s would not have been possible
particularly with the gradual weakening of Christianity and consequently
Christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage I propose
that these two trends greater level of general depression in society
and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are
linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former I cannot
provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis
seems very reasonable to me and I request that people ponder upon it
Fred Rice a Muslim giving his point of view
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
I think this is a big leap sexdepression One example is myself
where no sexdepression But seriously 1 promiscuity is on a decline
depression is not and 2 it might be more reasonable to say
depressionpromiscuity I think depression is more likely to come
from emotional problems relationships family job friends and
promiscuity is used as an escape
Since I see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an
emotional bond I dont see a problem with sex before not outside of
marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as
what is expected from a married couple Of course this is just
my opinion
Brian \
preprocess doc From: xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Washington Post Article on US-Russian Space Cooperation
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 23
Reported yesterday in the Washington Post (Kathy Sawyer, writer):
The article plays down the Russian role in US space.
Gibbons (science advisor to Clinton) sent Goldin a letter indicating
NASA should not limit redesign options to those compatible with Mir
orbit.
The White House thinks expectations for Russian cooperation have been
raised too high.
The article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits
for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly
impossible. That's why some think Goldin has begun looking at
Russian hardware.
Goldin states NASA will present all options to the administration
which will then have decision making power.
Goldin and the White House have totally ruled out using Energia to
boost the station.
--
Chuck Divine
after prepro From xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Washington Post Article on USRussian Space Cooperation
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 23
Reported yesterday in the Washington Post Kathy Sawyer writer
The article plays down the Russian role in US space
Gibbons science advisor to Clinton sent Goldin a letter indicating
NASA should not limit redesign options to those compatible with Mir
orbit
The White House thinks expectations for Russian cooperation have been
raised too high
The article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits
for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly
impossible Thats why some think Goldin has begun looking at
Russian hardware
Goldin states NASA will present all options to the administration
which will then have decision making power
Goldin and the White House have totally ruled out using Energia to
boost the station
Chuck Divine
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1pigidINNsot@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:
>>As for rape, surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist?
>
>Not so. If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled, do you
>blame the tiger?
A human has greater control over his/her actions, than a
predominately instictive tiger.
A proper analogy would be:
If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled, do you
blame that person?
Yes. [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of
mind, eg not clinicaly insane, on PCB's, etc. ]
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
mathew writes
As for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist
Not so If you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you
blame the tiger
A human has greater control over hisher actions than a
predominately instictive tiger
A proper analogy would be
If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled do you
blame that person
Yes [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of
mind eg not clinicaly insane on PCBs etc ]
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say Mom because of the love of their mom It makes for more
virile men
Bobby Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
April 4 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 34
In <1psg95$ree@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
[On the issue of 'burning' nuclear wastes using particle beams...]
>How is it ever going to be an Off- the Shelf Technology if someone doesn't
>do it? Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals. ;-)
>Gee fred. After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
>for SSF, Id think you would support a minor research program like
>this.
I sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than
everyone else, Pat. Just a *few* corrections:
1) I never 'defended' 20kHz power, other than as something reasonable
to GO LOOK AT.
2) I have also never opposed a *research project* into feasibility of
the spalling reactor approach to 'cleaning' nuclear waste -- I simply
doubt it could be made to work in the Real World (tm), which ought to
become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility
(sort of like what happened to 20 kHz power -- it proved to have a
down-side that was too expensive to overcome).
I figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault
density for even you, Pat.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 34
In 1psg95reeaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
[On the issue of burning nuclear wastes using particle beams]
How is it ever going to be an Off the Shelf Technology if someone doesnt
do it Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals
Gee fred After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF Id think you would support a minor research program like
this
I sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than
everyone else Pat Just a few corrections
1 I never defended 20kHz power other than as something reasonable
to GO LOOK AT
2 I have also never opposed a research project into feasibility of
the spalling reactor approach to cleaning nuclear waste I simply
doubt it could be made to work in the Real World tm which ought to
become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility
sort of like what happened to 20 kHz power it proved to have a
downside that was too expensive to overcome
I figure 2 things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault
density for even you Pat
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: lochem@fys.ruu.nl (Gert-Jan van Lochem)
Subject: Dutch: symposium compacte objecten
Summary: U wordt uitgenodigd voor het symposium compacte objecten 26-4-93
Keywords: compacte objecten, symposium
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
Lines: 122
Sterrenkundig symposium 'Compacte Objecten'
op 26 april 1993
In het jaar 1643, zeven jaar na de oprichting van de
Universiteit van Utrecht, benoemde de universiteit haar
eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer. Hiermee ontstond de tweede
universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld. Aert Jansz, de eerste
waarnemer, en zijn opvolgers voerden de Utrechtse sterrenkunde
in de daaropvolgende jaren, decennia en eeuwen naar de
voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek. Dit jaar is het 350
jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond.
De huidige generatie Utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten
sterrenkunde, verenigd in het Sterrekundig Instituut Utrecht,
vieren de benoeming van hun 'oervader' middels een breed scala
aan feestelijke activiteiten. Zo is er voor scholieren een
planetenproject, programmeert de Studium Generale een aantal
voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de Dies
Natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt. Er
staat echter meer op stapel.
Studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde kunnen op 26 april aan een
sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen. De onderwerpen van het
symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het
huidige Utrechtse onderzoek: het onderzoek aan de zogeheten
'compacte objecten', de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren.
Bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de
deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van
de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia. In de
eerste, inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof. Lamers een
beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren,
waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een
half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten
zullen ingaan. Na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot
het stellen van vragen. Het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op
een apart vel.
Het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars
studenten natuur- en sterrenkunde. OOK ANDERE BELANGSTELLENDEN
ZIJN VAN HARTE WELKOM!
Tijdens de lezing van prof. Kuijpers zullen, als alles goed
gaat, de veertien radioteleskopen van de Radiosterrenwacht
Westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen
het heelal, Westerbork en Utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van
een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren, een zogeheten pulsar,
in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren.
Prof. Kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen (elkaar snel
opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling) bespreken en
trachten te verklaren.
Het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de
technische haalbaarheid ervan. De op te vangen signalen zijn
namelijk zo zwak, dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van 10
miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van 30
Watt een seconde te laten branden! Tijdens het symposium zal
er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden: de hedendaagse
technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren.
Deelname aan het symposium kost f 4,- (exclusief lunch) en
f 16,- (inclusief lunch). Inschrijving geschiedt door het
verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op ABN-AMRO rekening
44.46.97.713 t.n.v. stichting 350 JUS. Het gironummer van de
ABN-AMRO bank Utrecht is 2900. Bij de inschrijving dient te
worden aangegeven of men lid is van de NNV. Na inschrijving
wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd. Bij inschrijving na
31 maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren.
Het symposium vindt plaats in Transitorium I,
Universiteit Utrecht.
Voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij
Henrik Spoon, p/a S.R.O.N., Sorbonnelaan 2, 3584 CA Utrecht.
Tel.: 030-535722. E-mail: henriks@sron.ruu.nl.
******* DAGPROGRAMMA **************************************
9:30 ONTVANGST MET KOFFIE & THEE
10:00 Opening
Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers (Utrecht)
10:10 Dubbelster evolutie
Prof. dr. H.J.G.L.M. Lamers
10:25 Radiopulsars
Prof. dr. J.M.E. Kuijpers (Utrecht)
11:00 Pulsars in dubbelster systemen
Prof. dr. F. Verbunt (Utrecht)
11:50 Massa & straal van neutronensterren
Prof. dr. J. van Paradijs (Amsterdam)
12:25 Theorie van accretieschijven
Drs. R.F. van Oss (Utrecht)
13:00 LUNCH
14:00 Hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit?
Dr. R.G.M. Rutten (Amsterdam)
14:35 Snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren
en zwarte gaten
Dr. M. van der Klis (Amsterdam)
15:10 THEE & KOFFIE
15:30 Zwarte gaten: knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd
Prof. dr. V. Icke (leiden)
16:05 afsluiting
16:25 BORREL
--
Gert-Jan van Lochem \\ "What is it?"
Fysische informatica \\ "Something blue"
Universiteit Utrecht \\ "Shapes, I need shapes!"
030-532803 \\ - HHGG -
after prepro From lochemfysruunl GertJan van Lochem
Subject Dutch symposium compacte objecten
Summary U wordt uitgenodigd voor het symposium compacte objecten 26493
Keywords compacte objecten symposium
Organization Physics Department University of Utrecht The Netherlands
Lines 122
Sterrenkundig symposium Compacte Objecten
op 26 april 1993
In het jaar 1643 zeven jaar na de oprichting van de
Universiteit van Utrecht benoemde de universiteit haar
eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer Hiermee ontstond de tweede
universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld Aert Jansz de eerste
waarnemer en zijn opvolgers voerden de Utrechtse sterrenkunde
in de daaropvolgende jaren decennia en eeuwen naar de
voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek Dit jaar is het 350
jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond
De huidige generatie Utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten
sterrenkunde verenigd in het Sterrekundig Instituut Utrecht
vieren de benoeming van hun oervader middels een breed scala
aan feestelijke activiteiten Zo is er voor scholieren een
planetenproject programmeert de Studium Generale een aantal
voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de Dies
Natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt Er
staat echter meer op stapel
Studenten natuur en sterrenkunde kunnen op 26 april aan een
sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen De onderwerpen van het
symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het
huidige Utrechtse onderzoek het onderzoek aan de zogeheten
compacte objecten de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren
Bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de
deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van
de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia In de
eerste inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof Lamers een
beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren
waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een
half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten
zullen ingaan Na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot
het stellen van vragen Het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op
een apart vel
Het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars
studenten natuur en sterrenkunde OOK ANDERE BELANGSTELLENDEN
ZIJN VAN HARTE WELKOM
Tijdens de lezing van prof Kuijpers zullen als alles goed
gaat de veertien radioteleskopen van de Radiosterrenwacht
Westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen
het heelal Westerbork en Utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van
een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren een zogeheten pulsar
in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren
Prof Kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen elkaar snel
opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling bespreken en
trachten te verklaren
Het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de
technische haalbaarheid ervan De op te vangen signalen zijn
namelijk zo zwak dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van 10
miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van 30
Watt een seconde te laten branden Tijdens het symposium zal
er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden de hedendaagse
technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren
Deelname aan het symposium kost f 4 exclusief lunch en
f 16 inclusief lunch Inschrijving geschiedt door het
verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op ABNAMRO rekening
444697713 tnv stichting 350 JUS Het gironummer van de
ABNAMRO bank Utrecht is 2900 Bij de inschrijving dient te
worden aangegeven of men lid is van de NNV Na inschrijving
wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd Bij inschrijving na
31 maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren
Het symposium vindt plaats in Transitorium I
Universiteit Utrecht
Voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij
Henrik Spoon pa SRON Sorbonnelaan 2 3584 CA Utrecht
Tel 030535722 Email henrikssronruunl
DAGPROGRAMMA
930 ONTVANGST MET KOFFIE THEE
1000 Opening
Prof dr HJGLM Lamers Utrecht
1010 Dubbelster evolutie
Prof dr HJGLM Lamers
1025 Radiopulsars
Prof dr JME Kuijpers Utrecht
1100 Pulsars in dubbelster systemen
Prof dr F Verbunt Utrecht
1150 Massa straal van neutronensterren
Prof dr J van Paradijs Amsterdam
1225 Theorie van accretieschijven
Drs RF van Oss Utrecht
1300 LUNCH
1400 Hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit
Dr RGM Rutten Amsterdam
1435 Snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren
en zwarte gaten
Dr M van der Klis Amsterdam
1510 THEE KOFFIE
1530 Zwarte gaten knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd
Prof dr V Icke leiden
1605 afsluiting
1625 BORREL
GertJan van Lochem \\ What is it
Fysische informatica \\ Something blue
Universiteit Utrecht \\ Shapes I need shapes
030532803 \\ HHGG
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Omnipotence (was Re: Speculations)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1993Apr5.171143.828@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>God is effectively limited in the same sense. He is all powerful, but
>He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
>He, Himself is.
Cannot? Try, will not.
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Omnipotence was Re Speculations
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1993Apr5171143828batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
God is effectively limited in the same sense He is all powerful but
He cannot use His power in a way that would violate the essence of what
He Himself is
Cannot Try will not
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say Mom because of the love of their mom It makes for more
virile men
Bobby Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
April 4 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world
preprocess doc From: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Subject: *** HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES ***
Originator: jmcocker@c00137-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu (Mitch)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Lines: 21
Hi all,
I'm trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies. Specifically, I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau. The companies are:
- AMROC
- Orbital Sciences Corp. (sp?)
- Spacehab, Inc. (I know this one is somewhere in
Seattle, WA, or at least part of it is.)
- Space Industries, Inc. (Somewhere in Houston)
- Space Enterprises Inc.
If anybody could point me in the right direction on this, I
would be most appreciative. I prefer an email response, but I
will post a summary if sufficient interest exists.
Thanks,
Mitch-------------------------------->jmcocker@eos.ncsu.edu
after prepro From jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Subject HELP I NEED SOME ADDRESSES
Originator jmcockerc00137100lezeosncsuedu
ReplyTo jmcockereosncsuedu Mitch
Organization North Carolina State University Project Eos
Lines 21
Hi all
Im trying to get mailing addresses for the following
companies Specifically I need addresses for their personnel
offices or like bureau The companies are
AMROC
Orbital Sciences Corp sp
Spacehab Inc I know this one is somewhere in
Seattle WA or at least part of it is
Space Industries Inc Somewhere in Houston
Space Enterprises Inc
If anybody could point me in the right direction on this I
would be most appreciative I prefer an email response but I
will post a summary if sufficient interest exists
Thanks
Mitchjmcockereosncsuedu
preprocess doc From: gnb@leo.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
In-Reply-To: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu's message of 21 Apr 93 08:15:55 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: leo-gw
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr21.001555.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
Why not??
Because to be any use as a nav point you need to know -exactly- where
it is, which means you either nail it to something that doesn't move
or you watch it all the time. Neither of which is possible on a
deactivated spacecraft. Then you have to know exactly how far away
from it you are; this may or may not be possible with the hardware on
board.
Apart from which, there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons.
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knox's 386 is slick. Fox in Sox, on Knox's Box
Knox's box is very quick. Plays lots of LSL. He's sick!
(Apologies to John "Iron Bar" Mackin.)
after prepro From gnbleobbycomau Gregory N Bond
Subject Re Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
InReplyTo nsmcaauroraalaskaedus message of 21 Apr 93 081555 GMT
NntpPostingHost leogw
Organization Burdett Buckeridge Young Melbourne Australia
Lines 17
In article 1993Apr210015551auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
Why not
Because to be any use as a nav point you need to know exactly where
it is which means you either nail it to something that doesnt move
or you watch it all the time Neither of which is possible on a
deactivated spacecraft Then you have to know exactly how far away
from it you are this may or may not be possible with the hardware on
board
Apart from which there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons
Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge Young Ltd Melbourne Australia
Knoxs 386 is slick Fox in Sox on Knoxs Box
Knoxs box is very quick Plays lots of LSL Hes sick
Apologies to John Iron Bar Mackin
preprocess doc uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Lines: 15
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
>cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances.
It can be painless, so it isn't cruel. And, it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual.
>I don't take issue with the numbers. A single innocent life taken
>is one too many.
But, innocents die due to many causes. Why have you singled out
accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with?
keith
after prepro uunetoliveasgigatesgiblabadagiopanasoniccomnntpservercaltechedukeith
Subject Re My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances
It can be painless so it isnt cruel And it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual
I dont take issue with the numbers A single innocent life taken
is one too many
But innocents die due to many causes Why have you singled out
accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with
keith
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Mars Observer Update - 04/23/93
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: Mars Observer, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project
MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
April 23, 1993
10:00 AM PDT
Flight Sequence C8 is active, the Spacecraft subsystems and instrument
payload performing well in Array Normal Spin and outer cruise
configuration, with uplink and downlink via the High Gain Antenna; uplink
at 125 bps, downlink at the 2 K Engineering data rate.
As a result of the spacecraft entering Contingency Mode on April 9, all
payload instruments were automatically powered off by on-board fault
protection software. Gamma Ray Spectrometer Random Access Memory
was successfully reloaded on Monday, April 19. To prepare for
Magnetometer Calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in Flight
Sequence C9 on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, a reload of Payload
Data System Random Access Memory will take place this morning
beginning at 10:30 AM.
Over this weekend, the Flight Team will send real-time commands to
perform Differential One-Way Ranging to obtain additional data for
analysis by the Navigation Team. Radio Science Ultra Stable Oscillator
testing will take place on Monday .
The Flight Sequence C9 uplink will occur on Sunday, April 25, with
activation at Midnight, Monday evening April 26. C9 has been modified to
include Magnetometer Calibrations which could not be performed in C8 due
to Contingency Mode entry on April 9. These Magnetometer instrument
calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the
spacecraft-generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument.
This information is critical to Martian magnetic field measurements
which occur during approach and mapping phases. MAG Cals will require
the sequence to command the spacecraft out of Array Normal Spin state
and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the MAG team data points
in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations.
Today, the spacecraft is 22,971,250 km (14,273,673 mi.) from Mars
travelling at a velocity of 2.09 kilometers/second (4,677 mph) with
respect to Mars. One-way light time is approximately 10 minutes, 38
seconds.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Mars Observer Update 042393
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 48
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords Mars Observer JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Forwarded from the Mars Observer Project
MARS OBSERVER STATUS REPORT
April 23 1993
1000 AM PDT
Flight Sequence C8 is active the Spacecraft subsystems and instrument
payload performing well in Array Normal Spin and outer cruise
configuration with uplink and downlink via the High Gain Antenna uplink
at 125 bps downlink at the 2 K Engineering data rate
As a result of the spacecraft entering Contingency Mode on April 9 all
payload instruments were automatically powered off by onboard fault
protection software Gamma Ray Spectrometer Random Access Memory
was successfully reloaded on Monday April 19 To prepare for
Magnetometer Calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in Flight
Sequence C9 on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week a reload of Payload
Data System Random Access Memory will take place this morning
beginning at 1030 AM
Over this weekend the Flight Team will send realtime commands to
perform Differential OneWay Ranging to obtain additional data for
analysis by the Navigation Team Radio Science Ultra Stable Oscillator
testing will take place on Monday
The Flight Sequence C9 uplink will occur on Sunday April 25 with
activation at Midnight Monday evening April 26 C9 has been modified to
include Magnetometer Calibrations which could not be performed in C8 due
to Contingency Mode entry on April 9 These Magnetometer instrument
calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the
spacecraftgenerated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument
This information is critical to Martian magnetic field measurements
which occur during approach and mapping phases MAG Cals will require
the sequence to command the spacecraft out of Array Normal Spin state
and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the MAG team data points
in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations
Today the spacecraft is 22971250 km 14273673 mi from Mars
travelling at a velocity of 209 kilometerssecond 4677 mph with
respect to Mars Oneway light time is approximately 10 minutes 38
seconds
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 17
In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. For
>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.
One consideration to remember is that if you don't turn it off now,
you may not be able to later. This isn't a case of reaching over and
flipping a switch; much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly
to execute a "turn off" command successfully. Spacecraft do malfunction
in their old age. The big concern is not radio clutter from idle
spacecraft, but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can
no longer be turned off.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 17
In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again
One consideration to remember is that if you dont turn it off now
you may not be able to later This isnt a case of reaching over and
flipping a switch much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly
to execute a turn off command successfully Spacecraft do malfunction
in their old age The big concern is not radio clutter from idle
spacecraft but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can
no longer be turned off
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: [soc.motss, et al.] "Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts"
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 162
C.Wainwright (eczcaw@mips.nott.ac.uk) wrote:
: I
: |> Jim,
: |>
: |> I always thought that homophobe was only a word used at Act UP
: |> rallies, I didn't beleive real people used it. Let's see if we agree
: |> on the term's definition. A homophobe is one who actively and
: |> militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent
: |> homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation.
: |> Since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a
: |> homophobe (your implication is clear), it must necessarily follow that
: |> all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least.
: |>
:
: Crap crap crap crap crap. A definition of any type of 'phobe comes from
: phobia = an irrational fear of. Hence a homophobe (not only in ACT UP meetings,
: the word is apparently in general use now. Or perhaps it isn't in the bible?
: Wouldst thou prefer if I were to communicate with thou in bilespeak?)
:
: Does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider? Does an
: agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space? Do you
: understand English?
:
: Obviously someone who has phobia will react to it. They will do their best
: to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or
: run away. Or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes? People
: who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or
: cause them (or themselves) violence.
:
Isn't that what I said ...
What are you taking issue with here, your remarks are merely
parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful.
: [...]
:
: |> It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
: |> (other than limiting population growth) since evolution only occurs
: |> when the members of one generation pass along their traits to
: |> subsequent generations. Homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend. If I
: |> take your usage of the term, homophobe, in the sense you seem to
: |> intend, then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our
: |> species at least, is going nowhere.
: |>
:
: So *every* time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children?
: Hmm...no wonder the world is overpopulated. Obviously you keep to the
: Monty Python song: "Every sperm is sacred". And if, as *you* say, it has
: a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is, by your own
: arguement, natural.
Consider the context, I'm talking about an evolutionary function. One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate, those who don't have no purpose in that context.
:
: |> Another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to
: |> survive, the participation of both parents is necessary - a family must
: |> exist, since homosexuals do not reproduce, they cannot constitute a
: |> family. Since the majority of humankind is part of a family,
: |> homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation, contrary to nature if you
: |> will.
: |>
:
: Well if that is true, by your own arguements homosexuals would have
: vanished *years* ago due to non-procreation. Also the parent from single
: parent families should put the babies out in the cold now, cos they must,
: by your arguement, die.
By your argument, homosexuality is genetically determined. As to your
second point, you prove again that you have no idea what context
means. I am talking about evolution, the preservation of the species,
the fundamental premise of the whole process.
:
: |> But it gets worse. Since the overwhelming majority of people actually
: |> -prefer- a heterosexual relationship, homosexuality is a social
: |> abberation as well. The homosexual eschews the biological imperative
: |> to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in
: |> the most fundamental social element, the family. But wait, there's
: |> more.
: |>
:
: Read the above. I expect you to have at least ten children by now, with
: the family growing. These days sex is less to do with procreation (admittedly
: without it there would be no-one) but more to do with pleasure. In pre-pill
: and pre-condom days, if you had sex there was the chance of producing children.
: These days is just ain't true! People can decide whether or not to have
: children and when. Soon they will be able to choose it's sex &c (but that's
: another arguement...) so it's more of a "lifestyle" decision. Again by
: your arguement, since homosexuals can not (or choose not) to reproduce they must
: be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children. Both are
: as "unnatural" as each other.
Yet another non-sequitur. Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation, that it is also recreation is incidental. That
homosexuals don't procreate means that sex is -only- recreation and
nothing more; they serve no -evolutionary- purpose.
:
: |> Since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some
: |> policy makers that they have civil rights, they are now claiming that
: |> their sexuality is a preference, a life-style, an orientation, a
: |> choice that should be protected by law. Now if homosexuality is a mere
: |> choice and if it is both contrary to nature and anti-social, then it
: |> is a perverse choice; they have even less credibility than before they
: |> became prominent.
: |>
:
: People are people are people. Who are you to tell anyone else how to live
: their life? Are you god(tm)? If so, fancy a date?
Here's pretty obvious dodge, do you really think you've said anything
or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement? I am not
telling anyone anything, I am demonstrating that there are arguments
against the practice of homosexuality (providing it's a merely an
alternate lifestlye) that are not homophobic, that one can reasonably
call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand. I realize
of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing a value,
and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis, but if you
are to be consistent, you have no case in this regard.
:
: |> To characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to
: |> ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of
: |> the homosexual "life-style". But since the charge is only intended to
: |> intimidate, it's really just demogoguery and not to be taken
: |> seriously. Fact is, Jim, there are far more persuasive arguments for
: |> suppressing homosexuality than those given, but consider this a start.
: |>
:
: Again crap. All your arguments are based on outdated ideals. Likewise the
: bible. Would any honest Christian condemn the ten generations spawned by
: a "bastard" to eternal damnation? Or someone who crushes his penis (either
: accidently or not..!). Both are in Deuteronomy.
I'm sure your comment pertains to something, but you've disguised it
so well I can't see what. Where did I mention ideals, out-dated or
otherwise? Your arguments are very reactionary; do you have anything
at all to contribute?
:
: |> As to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in
: |> scouting, the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from
: |> teaching; by their own logic, homosexuals are deviates, social and
: |> biological. Since any adult is a role model for a child, it is
: |> incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from
: |> those who would do the child harm. In this case, harm means primarily
: |> social, though that could be extended easily enough.
: |>
: |>
:
: You show me *anyone* who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as
: normal, and will take of my hat (Puma baseball cap) to you. "One man's meat
: is another man's poison"!
:
What has this got to do with anything? Would you pick a single point
that you find offensive and explain your objections, I would really
like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re [socmotss et al] Princeton axes matching funds for Boy Scouts
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 162
CWainwright eczcawmipsnottacuk wrote
I
Jim
I always thought that homophobe was only a word used at Act UP
rallies I didnt beleive real people used it Lets see if we agree
on the terms definition A homophobe is one who actively and
militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent
homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation
Since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a
homophobe your implication is clear it must necessarily follow that
all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least
Crap crap crap crap crap A definition of any type of phobe comes from
phobia an irrational fear of Hence a homophobe not only in ACT UP meetings
the word is apparently in general use now Or perhaps it isnt in the bible
Wouldst thou prefer if I were to communicate with thou in bilespeak
Does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider Does an
agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space Do you
understand English
Obviously someone who has phobia will react to it They will do their best
to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or
run away Or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes People
who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or
cause them or themselves violence
Isnt that what I said
What are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely
parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful
[]
It would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function
other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs
when the members of one generation pass along their traits to
subsequent generations Homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend If I
take your usage of the term homophobe in the sense you seem to
intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our
species at least is going nowhere
So every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children
Hmmno wonder the world is overpopulated Obviously you keep to the
Monty Python song Every sperm is sacred And if as you say it has
a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own
arguement natural
Consider the context Im talking about an evolutionary function One
of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a
species procreate those who dont have no purpose in that context
Another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to
survive the participation of both parents is necessary a family must
exist since homosexuals do not reproduce they cannot constitute a
family Since the majority of humankind is part of a family
homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation contrary to nature if you
will
Well if that is true by your own arguements homosexuals would have
vanished years ago due to nonprocreation Also the parent from single
parent families should put the babies out in the cold now cos they must
by your arguement die
By your argument homosexuality is genetically determined As to your
second point you prove again that you have no idea what context
means I am talking about evolution the preservation of the species
the fundamental premise of the whole process
But it gets worse Since the overwhelming majority of people actually
prefer a heterosexual relationship homosexuality is a social
abberation as well The homosexual eschews the biological imperative
to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in
the most fundamental social element the family But wait theres
more
Read the above I expect you to have at least ten children by now with
the family growing These days sex is less to do with procreation admittedly
without it there would be noone but more to do with pleasure In prepill
and precondom days if you had sex there was the chance of producing children
These days is just aint true People can decide whether or not to have
children and when Soon they will be able to choose its sex c but thats
another arguement so its more of a lifestyle decision Again by
your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must
be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children Both are
as unnatural as each other
Yet another nonsequitur Sex is an evolutionary function that exists
for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental That
homosexuals dont procreate means that sex is only recreation and
nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose
Since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some
policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that
their sexuality is a preference a lifestyle an orientation a
choice that should be protected by law Now if homosexuality is a mere
choice and if it is both contrary to nature and antisocial then it
is a perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they
became prominent
People are people are people Who are you to tell anyone else how to live
their life Are you godtm If so fancy a date
Heres pretty obvious dodge do you really think youve said anything
or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement I am not
telling anyone anything I am demonstrating that there are arguments
against the practice of homosexuality providing its a merely an
alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably
call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand I realize
of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing a value
and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis but if you
are to be consistent you have no case in this regard
To characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to
ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of
the homosexual lifestyle But since the charge is only intended to
intimidate its really just demogoguery and not to be taken
seriously Fact is Jim there are far more persuasive arguments for
suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this a start
Again crap All your arguments are based on outdated ideals Likewise the
bible Would any honest Christian condemn the ten generations spawned by
a bastard to eternal damnation Or someone who crushes his penis either
accidently or not Both are in Deuteronomy
Im sure your comment pertains to something but youve disguised it
so well I cant see what Where did I mention ideals outdated or
otherwise Your arguments are very reactionary do you have anything
at all to contribute
As to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in
scouting the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from
teaching by their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and
biological Since any adult is a role model for a child it is
incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from
those who would do the child harm In this case harm means primarily
social though that could be extended easily enough
You show me anyone who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as
normal and will take of my hat Puma baseball cap to you One mans meat
is another mans poison
What has this got to do with anything Would you pick a single point
that you find offensive and explain your objections I would really
like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly
Bill
preprocess doc From: perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry)
Subject: Re: Is Morality Constant (was Re: Biblical Rape)
Organization: Decision Support Inc.
Lines: 51
NNTP-Posting-Host: dsi.dsinc.com
This (frayed) thread has turned into a patented alt.atheism 5-on-1
ping-pong game, and I don't have any strong disagreement, so I'll try
to stick to the one thing I don't quite follow about the argument:
It seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the Bible
was "enlightened for its times" (i.e. closer to what we would consider
morally good based on our standards and past experience) on the one
hand [I hope this summarizes this argument adequately], and on the
other hand:
In article <1993Apr03.001125.23294@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
}In article <1phpe1INN8g6@dsi.dsinc.com>, perry@dsinc.com (Jim Perry) writes:
}|> }Disclaimer: I'm speaking from the Jewish perspective,
}|> }where "the Bible" means what many call the Old Testament,
}|> }and where the interpretation is not necessarily the
}|> }raw text, but instead the court cases, commentaries
}|> }and traditions passed down through Jewish communities.
}|>
}|> This seems the crux to me: if you judge the Bible according to a long
}|> line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day,
}|> rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact, then of course
}|> it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values.
}
}But if that's how the Bible is actually being used today,
}shouldn't that be how we should judge it? If most people
}use scissors to cut paper, shouldn't Consumer's Reports
}test scissors for paper-cutting ability, even though
}scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth?
That's possibly a good way to judge the use of the Bible in teaching
Jewish morality today, but it hardly seems fair to claim that this
highly-interpreted version is what was "enlightened for its times".
To (attempt to) extend the analogy, this is like saying that the
original scissor-makers were unusually advanced at paper-cutting for
their times, even though they only ever cut cloth, and had never even
heard of paper.
I'm not arguing that the Bible is "disgusting", though some of the
history depicted in it is, by modern standards. However, history is
full of similar abuses, and I don't think the Biblical accounts are
worse than their contemporaries--or possibly ours. On the other hand,
I don't know of any reason to think the history described in the Bible
shows *less* abuse than their contemporaries, or ours. That complex
and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic
interpretations of that history is interesting, but I still don't
think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it
to attack condemnation of the original history.
--
Jim Perry perry@dsinc.com Decision Support, Inc., Matthews NC
These are my opinions. For a nominal fee, they can be yours.
after prepro From perrydsinccom Jim Perry
Subject Re Is Morality Constant was Re Biblical Rape
Organization Decision Support Inc
Lines 51
NNTPPostingHost dsidsinccom
This frayed thread has turned into a patented altatheism 5on1
pingpong game and I dont have any strong disagreement so Ill try
to stick to the one thing I dont quite follow about the argument
It seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the Bible
was enlightened for its times ie closer to what we would consider
morally good based on our standards and past experience on the one
hand [I hope this summarizes this argument adequately] and on the
other hand
In article 1993Apr0300112523294watsonibmcom stromWatsonIbmCom Rob Strom writes
In article 1phpe1INN8g6dsidsinccom perrydsinccom Jim Perry writes
Disclaimer Im speaking from the Jewish perspective
where the Bible means what many call the Old Testament
and where the interpretation is not necessarily the
raw text but instead the court cases commentaries
and traditions passed down through Jewish communities
This seems the crux to me if you judge the Bible according to a long
line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day
rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact then of course
it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values
But if thats how the Bible is actually being used today
shouldnt that be how we should judge it If most people
use scissors to cut paper shouldnt Consumers Reports
test scissors for papercutting ability even though
scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth
Thats possibly a good way to judge the use of the Bible in teaching
Jewish morality today but it hardly seems fair to claim that this
highlyinterpreted version is what was enlightened for its times
To attempt to extend the analogy this is like saying that the
original scissormakers were unusually advanced at papercutting for
their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even
heard of paper
Im not arguing that the Bible is disgusting though some of the
history depicted in it is by modern standards However history is
full of similar abuses and I dont think the Biblical accounts are
worse than their contemporariesor possibly ours On the other hand
I dont know of any reason to think the history described in the Bible
shows less abuse than their contemporaries or ours That complex
and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic
interpretations of that history is interesting but I still dont
think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it
to attack condemnation of the original history
Jim Perry perrydsinccom Decision Support Inc Matthews NC
These are my opinions For a nominal fee they can be yours
preprocess doc zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
<1993Mar31.230523.13892@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> <11705@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> <1pic4lINNrau@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
Lines: 15
In article <1pic4lINNrau@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
|>
|> >My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
|> >cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances.
|>
|> It can be painless, so it isn't cruel. And, it has occurred frequently
|> since the dawn of time, so it is hardly unusual.
Koff! You mean that as long as I put you to sleep first,
I can kill you without being cruel?
This changes everything.
jon.
after prepro zaphodmpsohiostateeduwupostuunetoliveasgigateodinfidosolntzewpdsgicomlivesey
Subject Re 11705viceICOTEKCOM 1pic4lINNraugapcaltechedu
Organization sgi
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
Lines 15
In article 1pic4lINNraugapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
My personal objection is that I find capital punishment to be
cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances
It can be painless so it isnt cruel And it has occurred frequently
since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual
Koff You mean that as long as I put you to sleep first
I can kill you without being cruel
This changes everything
jon
preprocess doc From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Lines: 63
In article <93110.031905SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Graydon <SAUNDRSG@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>In article <1993Apr18.091051.14496@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
>says:
>>It's conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose, it's possible
>>that Luna will have a commercial purpose, but it's most likely that
>>Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
>>years at least. Therefore, Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
>>levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases. Can you
>>put a 200 person base on the Moon for $30 million a year? Even if you
>>use grad students?
>
>You might be able to _run_ one for that; put it there, hardly.
>
>Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
>be significant commerical activity on the Moon?
Wishful thinking mostly. It's more likely that the Moon will never
be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
grade fusion reactors. Exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch,
and it's position in the gravity well of Earth coupled with it's heat
sink capacity could offer some military utility for "high ground" military
weapons systems, but it holds very minute commercial value. If space
travel becomes cheap enough, it might become a tourist attraction as
Mt. Everest and the Antarctic have become, but that's a very minor
activity in the global scope of things.
Luna has an inconvienent gravity field. It's likely too low to prevent
calcium loss, muscle atrophy, and long term genetic drift. Yet it's
too high to do micro-G manufacturing. Space based colonies and factories
that can be spun to any convienent value of G look much better. Luna
has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month, but orbital
sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure. Luna offers
a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials, heatsink,
and shielding. The asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and
heavy elements, and volatile compounds, and many are in less steep gravity
wells so that less delta-v is required to reach them.
We don't use 2/3rds of the Earth now, the seafloors, and we virtually
ignore Antarctica, a whole continent. That's because we don't have to
deal with those conditions in order to make a buck. Luna is a much more
expensive place to visit, or to live and work. I think we'll use the
easier places first. That pushes Lunar development back at least a few
centuries, if not much longer.
Luna's main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio
astronomy observatory, shielded from the noisy Earth. Or as the site
of a laser, particle beam, or linear accelerator weapons system for
defending Earth, or bombarding it as the case may be. The first is
unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument.
The second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good
enough, and the military would really rather see the Earth safe for
conventional warfare again. There's little glory in watching from a
bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges. Little
ultimate profit either.
Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
after prepro From garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
Subject Re What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
ReplyTo garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman
Organization Destructive Testing Systems
Lines 63
In article 93110031905SAUNDRSGQUCDNQueensUCA Graydon writes
In article 1993Apr1809105114496ke4zvuucp garyke4zvuucp Gary Coffman
says
Its conceivable that Luna will have a military purpose its possible
that Luna will have a commercial purpose but its most likely that
Luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred
years at least Therefore Lunar bases should be predicated on funding
levels little different from those found for Antarctic bases Can you
put a 200 person base on the Moon for 30 million a year Even if you
use grad students
You might be able to _run_ one for that put it there hardly
Why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will
be significant commerical activity on the Moon
Wishful thinking mostly Its more likely that the Moon will never
be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
grade fusion reactors Exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch
and its position in the gravity well of Earth coupled with its heat
sink capacity could offer some military utility for high ground military
weapons systems but it holds very minute commercial value If space
travel becomes cheap enough it might become a tourist attraction as
Mt Everest and the Antarctic have become but thats a very minor
activity in the global scope of things
Luna has an inconvienent gravity field Its likely too low to prevent
calcium loss muscle atrophy and long term genetic drift Yet its
too high to do microG manufacturing Space based colonies and factories
that can be spun to any convienent value of G look much better Luna
has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month but orbital
sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure Luna offers
a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials heatsink
and shielding The asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and
heavy elements and volatile compounds and many are in less steep gravity
wells so that less deltav is required to reach them
We dont use 23rds of the Earth now the seafloors and we virtually
ignore Antarctica a whole continent Thats because we dont have to
deal with those conditions in order to make a buck Luna is a much more
expensive place to visit or to live and work I think well use the
easier places first That pushes Lunar development back at least a few
centuries if not much longer
Lunas main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio
astronomy observatory shielded from the noisy Earth Or as the site
of a laser particle beam or linear accelerator weapons system for
defending Earth or bombarding it as the case may be The first is
unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument
The second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good
enough and the military would really rather see the Earth safe for
conventional warfare again Theres little glory in watching from a
bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges Little
ultimate profit either
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV You make it gatechwa4meike4zvgary
Destructive Testing Systems we break it uunetrsiatlke4zvgary
534 Shannon Way Guaranteed emorykd4ncke4zvgary
Lawrenceville GA 30244
preprocess doc From: bobc@sed.stel.com (Bob Combs)
Subject: Re: Blow up space station, easy way to do it.
Organization: SED, Stanford Telecom, Reston, VA 22090
Lines: 16
In article <1993Apr5.184527.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>This might a real wierd idea or maybe not..
>
>
>Why musta space station be so difficult?? why must we have girders? why be
>confined to earth based ideas, lets think new ideas, after all space is not
>earth, why be limited by earth based ideas??
>
Choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above:
1. Politics
2. Traditions
3. Congress
4. Beauracrats
after prepro From bobcsedstelcom Bob Combs
Subject Re Blow up space station easy way to do it
Organization SED Stanford Telecom Reston VA 22090
Lines 16
In article 1993Apr51845271auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
This might a real wierd idea or maybe not
Why musta space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be
confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not
earth why be limited by earth based ideas
Choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above
1 Politics
2 Traditions
3 Congress
4 Beauracrats
preprocess doc From: msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 34
> > Can these questions be answered for a previous
> > instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?
> Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)
> p(au) 3.424346
> e 0.151899
> i 1.0988
> cap_omega(0) 243.5652
> W(0) 231.1607
> epoch 1977.04110
Thanks for the information!
I assume p is the semi-major axis and e the eccentricity. The peri-
helion and aphelion are then given by p(1-e) and p(1+e), i.e., about
2.90 and 3.95 AU respectively. For Jupiter, they are 4.95 and 5.45 AU.
If 1977 was after the temporary capture, this means that the comet
ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 AU to Jupiter's --
which I take to be a rough indication of how far from Jupiter it could
get under Jupiter's influence.
> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
>
> April 1973 83 jupiter radii
> August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
--
Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Remember the Golgafrinchans"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- Pete Granger
This article is in the public domain.
after prepro From msbsqsqcom Mark Brader
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization SoftQuad Inc Toronto Canada
Lines 34
Can these questions be answered for a previous
instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting
Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files
pau 3424346
e 0151899
i 10988
cap_omega0 2435652
W0 2311607
epoch 197704110
Thanks for the information
I assume p is the semimajor axis and e the eccentricity The peri
helion and aphelion are then given by p1e and p1e ie about
290 and 395 AU respectively For Jupiter they are 495 and 545 AU
If 1977 was after the temporary capture this means that the comet
ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than 1 AU to Jupiters
which I take to be a rough indication of how far from Jupiter it could
get under Jupiters influence
Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius 71000 km 44000 mi 00005 AU So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Remember the Golgafrinchans
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom Pete Granger
This article is in the public domain
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr10.124753.25195@bradford.ac.uk> L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham) writes:
>Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) wrote:
>>Well, it seemed slightly incongruous to find the Union Jack flying
>>at City Hall in Belfast.
>May I ask why? It's there not because the British want it there (NI
>is just one big expensive problem), it's there because that is
>what the majority of the population of NI want. Is there some
>problem with that?
The majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps.
There seems quite alot of incentive for the British to have control
of NI, like using the North Channel and Irish Sea as a waste dump (I was
appalled at the dumping I saw in the harbor in Belfast). It is my
understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water --
it'd be quite a problem if NI got its independence from Britain and
then stopped accepting the waste. Are you suggesting that British
industry isn't making profit off the situation as well?
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 23
In article 1993Apr1012475325195bradfordacuk LNewnhambradfordacuk Leonard Newnham writes
Gregg Jaeger jaegerbuphybuedu wrote
Well it seemed slightly incongruous to find the Union Jack flying
at City Hall in Belfast
May I ask why Its there not because the British want it there NI
is just one big expensive problem its there because that is
what the majority of the population of NI want Is there some
problem with that
The majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps
There seems quite alot of incentive for the British to have control
of NI like using the North Channel and Irish Sea as a waste dump I was
appalled at the dumping I saw in the harbor in Belfast It is my
understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water
itd be quite a problem if NI got its independence from Britain and
then stopped accepting the waste Are you suggesting that British
industry isnt making profit off the situation as well
Gregg
preprocess doc From: "Robert Knowles" <p00261@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Amusing atheists and agnostics
In-Reply-To: <timmbake.735175045@mcl>
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Kupajava, East of Krakatoa
X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.3)
Lines: 19
>DATE: 18 Apr 93 23:17:25 GMT
>FROM: Bake Timmons <timmbake@mcl.ucsb.edu>
>
> These Bible-lovers have got to chill out. If we all could just relax
>and see atheism for what it is, the funny pages could have more material.
>
> Atheism denies the existence of God. This is logically bankrupt --
>where is the proof of this nonexistence? It's a joke.
>
> So nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously. Perhaps
Perhaps because you just made it up?
Now put your skateboard away and read the FAQ. Learn something about atheism
before you get off on these tangents.
after prepro From Robert Knowles
Subject Re Amusing atheists and agnostics
InReplyTo
NntpPostingHost 127001
Organization Kupajava East of Krakatoa
XMailer PSILinkDOS 33
Lines 19
DATE 18 Apr 93 231725 GMT
FROM Bake Timmons
These Biblelovers have got to chill out If we all could just relax
and see atheism for what it is the funny pages could have more material
Atheism denies the existence of God This is logically bankrupt
where is the proof of this nonexistence Its a joke
So nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously Perhaps
Perhaps because you just made it up
Now put your skateboard away and read the FAQ Learn something about atheism
before you get off on these tangents
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Keywords: JPL
In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
> Using a model of Mars Observer, Albee spent several minutes
>describing the project and the spacecraft's features. In answer
>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>a concept." Chahine, who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
Too bad they didn't give him a tour of the CGRO data?
I think he'd be fascinated by the Gamma ray bursters. The mind of
hawking might even propose a mechanism.
SO what's a drag free satellite? coated with WD-40? carries an
aluminum-gold set of grateful dead albums? inquiring minds
want to know?
And why would MO carry any features for being drag free? I thought
aero-braking was a possible MO experimental activity?
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 23
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Keywords JPL
In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Using a model of Mars Observer Albee spent several minutes
describing the project and the spacecrafts features In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept Chahine who had met Hawking at Caltech about five
Too bad they didnt give him a tour of the CGRO data
I think hed be fascinated by the Gamma ray bursters The mind of
hawking might even propose a mechanism
SO whats a drag free satellite coated with WD40 carries an
aluminumgold set of grateful dead albums inquiring minds
want to know
And why would MO carry any features for being drag free I thought
aerobraking was a possible MO experimental activity
pat
preprocess doc From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 33
In article <115288@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>
>He'd have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam.
>One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
>existence of God, so long as one does not _reject_ God. I am sure that
>Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
>number of proper witnesses. The question in regard to the legal issue
>is his status at the time the crime was committed.
I'd have to say that I have a problem with any organization,
religious or not, where the idea that _simple speech_ such
as this is the basis for a crime.
-jim halat
after prepro From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 33
In article 115288buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Hed have to be precise about is rejection of God and his leaving Islam
One is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the
existence of God so long as one does not _reject_ God I am sure that
Rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient
number of proper witnesses The question in regard to the legal issue
is his status at the time the crime was committed
Id have to say that I have a problem with any organization
religious or not where the idea that _simple speech_ such
as this is the basis for a crime
jim halat
preprocess doc From: acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu
Subject: Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization: Macalester College
Lines: 26
I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population.
It is rather a ridiculous question in some ways, I know, but my newsreader is
down so I am not getting any new postings for a bit, so I figure I might as
well post something new myself.
Also, how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking. The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation, so one is not, intrinsically, different from the
other, qualitatively. But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere, and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core,
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery; ie, how it
expresses its own selfishness.
Idle thoughts...
Adam
********************************************************************************
* Adam John Cooper "Verily, often have I laughed at the weaklings *
* who thought themselves good simply because *
* acooper@macalstr.edu they had no claws." *
********************************************************************************
after prepro From acoopermacccmacalstredu
Subject Idle questions for fellow atheists
Organization Macalester College
Lines 26
I wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world
if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population
It is rather a ridiculous question in some ways I know but my newsreader is
down so I am not getting any new postings for a bit so I figure I might as
well post something new myself
Also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a
higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking The
typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the
same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the
other qualitatively But then again a measuring stick must be drawn
somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core
than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it
expresses its own selfishness
Idle thoughts
Adam
Adam John Cooper Verily often have I laughed at the weaklings
who thought themselves good simply because
acoopermacalstredu they had no claws
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: atheist?
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 38
In article <ePVk2B3w165w@mantis.co.uk>
Tony Lezard <tony@mantis.co.uk> writes:
(Deletion)
>> In other words, if there were gods, they would hardly make sense, and
>> it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods.
>>
>> The concept is useless, and I don't have to introduce new assumptions
>> in order to show that.
>
>Yes I fully agree with that, but is it "I don't believe gods exist", or
>"I believe no gods exist"? As MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats Andtbacka)
>pointed out, it all hinges on what you take the word "believe" to mean.
>
For me, it is a "I believe no gods exist" and a "I don't believe gods exist".
In other words, I think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere
with this world are false or meaningless. In Ontology, one can fairly
conclude that when "A exist" is meaningless A does not exist. Under the
Pragmatic definition of truth, "A exists" is meaningless makes A exist
even logically false.
A problem with such statements is that one can't disprove a subjective god
by definition, and there might be cases where a subjective god would even
make sense. The trouble with most god definitions is that they include
some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting
all. Believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others.
(Deletion)
>
>Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of "belief"?
>Can it?
>
Honestly, I don't see the problem.
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re atheist
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 38
In article
Tony Lezard writes
Deletion
In other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and
it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods
The concept is useless and I dont have to introduce new assumptions
in order to show that
Yes I fully agree with that but is it I dont believe gods exist or
I believe no gods exist As MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats Andtbacka
pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean
For me it is a I believe no gods exist and a I dont believe gods exist
In other words I think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere
with this world are false or meaningless In Ontology one can fairly
conclude that when A exist is meaningless A does not exist Under the
Pragmatic definition of truth A exists is meaningless makes A exist
even logically false
A problem with such statements is that one cant disprove a subjective god
by definition and there might be cases where a subjective god would even
make sense The trouble with most god definitions is that they include
some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting
all Believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others
Deletion
Should the FAQ be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief
Can it
Honestly I dont see the problem
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu (Joe Cain)
Subject: Drag free satellites (was: Stephen Hawking Tours JPL)
Keywords: JPL
Organization: Florida State University Geology Dept.
Lines: 23
In article <1raee7$b8s@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>In article <23APR199317325771@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>> In answer
>>to a question from Hawking, Chahine described a proposed
>>drag-free satellite, but confirmed that at this point, "it's only
>>a concept."
>
>SO what's a drag free satellite? coated with WD-40?
I am puzzled by the term "concept." Drag free may already have
been flown. It was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would
more accurately respond to motions from the Earth's gravity field and
ignore drag. It was proposed many years ago and involved a ball
floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little
adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them. The ball itself would
then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity
anisotropies, whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously
adjusting its position to compensate for drag.
Joseph Cain cain@geomag.gly.fsu.edu
cain@fsu.bitnet scri::cain
(904) 644-4014 FAX (904) 644-4214 or -0098
after prepro From caingeomagglyfsuedu Joe Cain
Subject Drag free satellites was Stephen Hawking Tours JPL
Keywords JPL
Organization Florida State University Geology Dept
Lines 23
In article 1raee7b8saccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 23APR199317325771kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
In answer
to a question from Hawking Chahine described a proposed
dragfree satellite but confirmed that at this point its only
a concept
SO whats a drag free satellite coated with WD40
I am puzzled by the term concept Drag free may already have
been flown It was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would
more accurately respond to motions from the Earths gravity field and
ignore drag It was proposed many years ago and involved a ball
floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little
adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them The ball itself would
then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity
anisotropies whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously
adjusting its position to compensate for drag
Joseph Cain caingeomagglyfsuedu
cainfsubitnet scricain
904 6444014 FAX 904 6444214 or 0098
preprocess doc From: jbreed@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Nntp-Posting-Host: doink
Reply-To: jbreed@ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Lines: 10
In article <C5ros0.uy@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.
Where does the shadow come from? There's nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them. I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
our view of them either. What am I missing?
Jim
after prepro From jbreeddoinkb23bingrcom James B Reed
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
NntpPostingHost doink
ReplyTo jbreedingrcom
Organization Intergraph Electronics
Lines 10
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
[Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible
Where does the shadow come from Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either What am I missing
Jim
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Moonbase race
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 26
From: Gene Wright <gene@theporch.raider.net>
>With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
>by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
>that might just work.
>Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
>who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
>Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
>to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
I'll say! Imagine that there were a couple groups up there, maybe landing
a few weeks apart. The year-mark starts coming on for the first group.
Isn't a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential
winner? "Yeah, that's a shame that Team A's life support gave out
so close to the deadline. Thanks for the billion."
On the other hand, if Apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks
in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers?
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Moonbase race
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 26
From Gene Wright
With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
Ill say Imagine that there were a couple groups up there maybe landing
a few weeks apart The yearmark starts coming on for the first group
Isnt a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential
winner Yeah thats a shame that Team As life support gave out
so close to the deadline Thanks for the billion
On the other hand if Apollo cost 25billion for a few days or weeks
in space in 1970 dollars then wont the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
Lines: 10
dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
> Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
> there at all (and, why their children would want to stay.)
Paul-- for the same reason that many other colonies are founded. Why not?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Prael - dante@shakala.com
Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289
after prepro From danteshakalacom Charlie Prael
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
Lines 10
dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes
Which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are
there at all and why their children would want to stay
Paul for the same reason that many other colonies are founded Why not
Charlie Prael danteshakalacom
Shakala BBS ClanZen Radio Network Sunnyvale CA 14087342289
preprocess doc From: brody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Adam R. Brody )
Subject: Re: Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration. May 7 Crystal City
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: na
Lines: 14
prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>AW&ST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
>May 7th at Crystal City Virginia, under the auspices of AIAA.
>Does anyone know more about this? How much, to attend????
>Anyone want to go?
>pat
I got something in the mail from AIAA about it. Cost is $75.
Speakers include John Pike, Hohn Young, and Ian Pryke.
after prepro From brodyeosarcnasagov Adam R Brody
Subject Re Conference on Manned Lunar Exploration May 7 Crystal City
Organization NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution na
Lines 14
prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
AWST had a brief blurb on a Manned Lunar Exploration confernce
May 7th at Crystal City Virginia under the auspices of AIAA
Does anyone know more about this How much to attend
Anyone want to go
pat
I got something in the mail from AIAA about it Cost is 75
Speakers include John Pike Hohn Young and Ian Pryke
preprocess doc From: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
Subject: Re: Vulcan? No, not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Reply-To: C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tahiti.larc.nasa.gov
> Another legend with the name Vulcan was the planet, much like Earth,
> in the same orbit
There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago (I do not remember its
name) about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth. Turns out that that planet
was the exact mirror image of Earth and all its inhabitants looked like
the Earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite
side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they
would shake hands with the left hand and so on...
C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV
C.O.Egalon@larc.nasa.gov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
after prepro From COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
Subject Re Vulcan No not Spock or Haphaestus
Organization NASA Langley Research Center
Lines 16
Distribution world
ReplyTo COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON
NNTPPostingHost tahitilarcnasagov
Another legend with the name Vulcan was the planet much like Earth
in the same orbit
There was a Science fiction movie sometime ago I do not remember its
name about a planet in the same orbit of Earth but hidden behind the
Sun so it could never be visible from Earth Turns out that that planet
was the exact mirror image of Earth and all its inhabitants looked like
the Earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite
side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they
would shake hands with the left hand and so on
COEGALONLARCNASAGOV
COEgalonlarcnasagov
Claudio Oliveira Egalon
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Level 5?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 31
In article <1993Apr21.134436.26140@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 ...
>>Level 5? Out of how many? ...
>
>... Also keep in mind that it was
>*not* achieved through the use of sophisticated tools, but rather
>through a 'brute force and ignorance' attack on the problem during the
>Challenger standdown - they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
>did the whole process by hand...
I think this is a little inaccurate, based on Feynman's account of the
software-development process *before* the standdown. Fred is basically
correct: no sophisticated tools, just a lot of effort and painstaking
care. But they got this one right *before* Challenger; Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people. (He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners, but hadn't had to give in to it much yet.)
Among other things, the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major pre-flight simulations, and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in-flight failure.
As a result, the number of major-simulation failures could be counted
on one hand, and the number of in-flight failures was zero.
As Fred mentioned elsewhere, this applies only to the flight software.
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters, and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care.
(None of the experimenters could afford it.)
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Level 5
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 31
In article 1993Apr2113443626140mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5
Level 5 Out of how many
Also keep in mind that it was
not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather
through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the
Challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and
did the whole process by hand
I think this is a little inaccurate based on Feynmans account of the
softwaredevelopment process before the standdown Fred is basically
correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking
care But they got this one right before Challenger Feynman cited
the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people He
also noted that the software people were starting to feel management
pressure to cut corners but hadnt had to give in to it much yet
Among other things the software people worked very hard to get things
right for the major preflight simulations and considered a failure
during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an inflight failure
As a result the number of majorsimulation failures could be counted
on one hand and the number of inflight failures was zero
As Fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software
Software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the
experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of Tender Loving Care
None of the experimenters could afford it
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Death and Taxes (was Why not give $1 billion to...
Article-I.D.: indyvax.1993Apr22.162501.747
Lines: 10
In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget. I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner (my actual wording was, "mining
rights.) Somebody pointed out, quite correctly, that such rights are
not anybody's to grant (although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner.) So how about this? Give the winning group
(I can't see one company or corp doing it) a 10, 20, or 50 year
moratorium on taxes.
Tom Freebairn
after prepro From tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu
Subject Death and Taxes was Why not give 1 billion to
ArticleID indyvax1993Apr22162501747
Lines 10
In my first posting on this subject I threw out an idea of how to fund
such a contest without delving to deep into the budget I mentioned
granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining
rights Somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are
not anybodys to grant although I imagine it would be a fait accompli
situation for the winner So how about this Give the winning group
I cant see one company or corp doing it a 10 20 or 50 year
moratorium on taxes
Tom Freebairn
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Surviving Large Accelerations?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 13
In article <EfpX7WS00Uh7QAoP1S@andrew.cmu.edu> Amruth Laxman <al26+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>... here's my question finally - Are 45g accelerations in
>fact humanly tolerable? - with the aid of any mechanical devices of
>course. If these are possible, what is used to absorb the acceleration?
This sounds a bit high to me. Still higher accelerations have been endured
*very briefly*, during violent deceleration. If we're talking sustained
acceleration, I think 30-odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion.
I doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Surviving Large Accelerations
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 13
In article Amruth Laxman writes
heres my question finally Are 45g accelerations in
fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of
course If these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration
This sounds a bit high to me Still higher accelerations have been endured
very briefly during violent deceleration If were talking sustained
acceleration I think 30odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion
I doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Technical University Braunschweig, Germany
Lines: 102
In article <66020@mimsy.umd.edu>
mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:
>Assuming you are presenting it accurately, I don't see how this argument
>really leads to any firm conclusion. The material in John (I'm not sure
>exactly what is referred to here, but I'll take for granted the similarity
>to the Matt./Luke "Q" material) IS different; hence, one could have almost
>any relationship between the two, right up to John getting it straight from
>Jesus' mouth.
>
No, the argument says John has known Q, ie a codified version of the logia,
and not the original, assuming that there has been one. It has weaknesses,
of course, like that John might have known the original, yet rather referred
to Q in his text, or that the logia were given in a codified version in
the first place.
The argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion, but it fits well into
the dating usually given for the gospels.
>>We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
>>explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
>>their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
>>that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
>
>The version of the "usual theory" I have heard has Matthew and Luke
>independently relying on Mark and "Q". One would think that if Luke relied
>on Matthew, we wouldn't have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies,
>for one thing.
>
Not necessarily, Luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the
version given by Matthew. Improving on Matthew would give a motive, for
instance.
As far as I know, the theory that Luke has known Matthew is based on a
statistical analysis of the texts.
>>As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
>>for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
>
>This is the part that is particularly new to me. If it were possible that
>you could point me to a reference, I'd be grateful.
>
Yep, but it will take another day or so to get the source. I hope your German
is good enough. :-)
>>>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand. It was (I think) in the late
>>>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.
>
>>When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
>>putting John after the rest of the three?
>
>Because it closes up the gap between (supposed) writing and the existing
>copy quit a bit. The further away from the original, the more copies can be
>written, and therefore survival becomes more probable.
>
I still do not see how copies from 200 allow to change the dating of John.
>>That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
>>together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
>
>I'm not really impressed with the "theology" argument. But I'm really
>pointing this out as an "if". And as I pointed out earlier, one cannot make
>these arguments about I Peter; I see no reason not to accept it as an
>authentic letter.
>
Yes, but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence. The authencity of
many letters is still discussed. It looks as if conclusions about them are not
drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as
well.
>>One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
>>to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
>
>The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants, which is
>not so bad.
>
Well, rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the
big meeting. Not necessarily wrong, but certainly bad.
>>In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
>>and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.
>
>But the statement of divinity is not in that section, and in any case, it's
>agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark.
Yes, but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem.
Question: Are there letters not from Paul and predating Mark claiming the
divinity of Jesus?
Benedikt
after prepro From I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Technical University Braunschweig Germany
Lines 102
In article 66020mimsyumdedu
mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate writes
Assuming you are presenting it accurately I dont see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion The material in John Im not sure
exactly what is referred to here but Ill take for granted the similarity
to the MattLuke Q material IS different hence one could have almost
any relationship between the two right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus mouth
No the argument says John has known Q ie a codified version of the logia
and not the original assuming that there has been one It has weaknesses
of course like that John might have known the original yet rather referred
to Q in his text or that the logia were given in a codified version in
the first place
The argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion but it fits well into
the dating usually given for the gospels
We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark
The version of the usual theory I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and Q One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew we wouldnt have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies
for one thing
Not necessarily Luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the
version given by Matthew Improving on Matthew would give a motive for
instance
As far as I know the theory that Luke has known Matthew is based on a
statistical analysis of the texts
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly
This is the part that is particularly new to me If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference Id be grateful
Yep but it will take another day or so to get the source I hope your German
is good enough
Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200
When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three
Because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing
copy quit a bit The further away from the original the more copies can be
written and therefore survival becomes more probable
I still do not see how copies from 200 allow to change the dating of John
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument
Im not really impressed with the theology argument But Im really
pointing this out as an if And as I pointed out earlier one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter
Yes but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence The authencity of
many letters is still discussed It looks as if conclusions about them are not
drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as
well
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies
The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is
not so bad
Well rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the
big meeting Not necessarily wrong but certainly bad
In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak
But the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case its
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark
Yes but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem
Question Are there letters not from Paul and predating Mark claiming the
divinity of Jesus
Benedikt
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: space news from Feb 15 AW&ST
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 23
In article <1993Apr23.155313.4220@dazixco.ingr.com> jbreed@ingr.com writes:
>|> [Pluto's] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010, and after about
>|> 2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
>|> shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible.
>
>Where does the shadow come from? There's nothing close enough to block
>sunlight from hitting them. I wouldn't expect there to be anything block
>our view of them either. What am I missing?
You're assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface
into sunlight. Not so. Even on Earth, each pole gets several weeks without
sunlight in mid-winter. Pluto and Charon have much more extreme axial
tilt and a much longer orbit. Pluto's north pole, for example, gets over
a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light.
At the moment, we're in luck -- Pluto and Charon are just past their
equinox, when the Sun was just on the horizon at both poles (of each).
If we get probes there soon, only the immediate vicinity of one pole
(on each) will be in long-term shadow. This will get steadily worse the
longer we wait.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re space news from Feb 15 AWST
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 23
In article 1993Apr231553134220dazixcoingrcom jbreedingrcom writes
[Plutos] atmosphere will start to freeze out around 2010 and after about
2005 increasing areas of both Pluto and Charon will be in permanent
shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible
Where does the shadow come from Theres nothing close enough to block
sunlight from hitting them I wouldnt expect there to be anything block
our view of them either What am I missing
Youre assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface
into sunlight Not so Even on Earth each pole gets several weeks without
sunlight in midwinter Pluto and Charon have much more extreme axial
tilt and a much longer orbit Plutos north pole for example gets over
a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light
At the moment were in luck Pluto and Charon are just past their
equinox when the Sun was just on the horizon at both poles of each
If we get probes there soon only the immediate vicinity of one pole
on each will be in longterm shadow This will get steadily worse the
longer we wait
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: DC-X: Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 14
In <1993Apr5.191011.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>Since the DC-X is to take off horizontal, why not land that way??
>Why do the Martian Landing thing.. Or am I missing something.. Don't know to
>much about DC-X and such.. (overly obvious?).
You missed something. I think it takes off vertically and is intended
to land the same way.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re DCX Vehicle Nears Flight Test
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 14
In 1993Apr51910111auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Since the DCX is to take off horizontal why not land that way
Why do the Martian Landing thing Or am I missing something Dont know to
much about DCX and such overly obvious
You missed something I think it takes off vertically and is intended
to land the same way
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 88
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: HST
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Ed Campion
Headquarters, Washington, D.C. April 23, 1993
(Phone: 202/358-1780)
Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center, Houston
(Phone: 713/483-5111)
RELEASE: 93-76
HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS
The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS-61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two, if needed.
The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities, or EVAs, was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training, maneuver times
required using the Shuttle's robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions.
"Basically what we've done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics, or unknowns, of spacewalks," Mission Director Randy Brinkley said.
"It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real-time situations."
In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks, officials have determined that changing out the gyros, solar arrays
and the Wide Field/Planetary Camera (WF/PC) and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement (COSTAR) are priority objectives
during the mission.
"When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks, highest through
lowest priority, and recognizing that the major tasks -- gyros, solar arrays,
WF/PC and COSTAR -- would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk, five EVAs were deemed appropriate," said Milt Heflin, Lead Flight
Director for the mission.
While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented, the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two, three or four EVAs.
"We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs,"
Heflin said. "In planning for all Space Shuttle missions, it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives."
Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center, called joint integrated
simulations, lasting between 10 and 36 hours. In addition, many stand alone
underwater training "runs" will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk.
Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission. Also, lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS-61 crew in its training techniques.
Endeavour's June flight and Discovery's July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission.
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center, Houston, and the Marshall Space Flight Center,
Huntsville, Ala.
Also, the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps, the flight controllers and
trainers.
Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew, Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures.
The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990. At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary.
- end -
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 88
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords HST
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
Ed Campion
Headquarters Washington DC April 23 1993
Phone 2023581780
Kyle Herring
Johnson Space Center Houston
Phone 7134835111
RELEASE 9376
HUBBLE TELESCOPE SERVICING MISSION SCHEDULED FOR ELEVEN DAYS
The December flight of Endeavour on Space Shuttle mission STS61 to
service the Hubble Space Telescope HST has been scheduled as an 11 day
mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability
for an additional two if needed
The decision to schedule five extravehicular activities or EVAs was
reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training maneuver times
required using the Shuttles robot arm based on software simulations and actual
EVA tasks on previous missions
Basically what weve done by going to five EVAs rather than three is
to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the
dynamics or unknowns of spacewalks Mission Director Randy Brinkley said
It improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added
flexibility and adaptability for reacting to realtime situations
In laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the
spacewalks officials have determined that changing out the gyros solar arrays
and the Wide FieldPlanetary Camera WFPC and installing the Corrective
Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement COSTAR are priority objectives
during the mission
When we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks highest through
lowest priority and recognizing that the major tasks gyros solar arrays
WFPC and COSTAR would consume most of the time set aside for each
spacewalk five EVAs were deemed appropriate said Milt Heflin Lead Flight
Director for the mission
While the five spacewalks will be unprecedented the use of two
alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than
previous missions requiring two three or four EVAs
We have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous
spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five EVAs
Heflin said In planning for all Space Shuttle missions it is necessary to
formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible
to accomplish the mission objectives
Planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions
that include support from the Mission Control Center called joint integrated
simulations lasting between 10 and 36 hours In addition many stand alone
underwater training runs will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk
Various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be
made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the
mission Also lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight
will be valuable in assisting the STS61 crew in its training techniques
Endeavours June flight and Discoverys July mission both will include
spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the HST mission
The evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the
actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at
the Johnson Space Center Houston and the Marshall Space Flight Center
Huntsville Ala
Also the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining
further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the
experience levels among the astronaut corps the flight controllers and
trainers
Designed to be serviced by a Space Shuttle crew Hubble was built with
grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures
The telescope was launched aboard Discovery in April 1990 At that
time the NASA mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to HST in
1993 to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have
become necessary
end
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Boom! Whoosh......
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 24
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5ut0z.CtG@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r46ofINNdku@gap.caltech.edu> palmer@cco.caltech.edu (David M. Palmer) writes:
>>>orbiting billboard...
>>
>>I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
>>object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
>>velocity. For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth,
>>you need a delta-v of 2.5 km/s.
>Unfortunately, if you launch this from the US (or are a US citizen),
>you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
>Transportation, and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
>an antisatellite weapon... :-)
Well Henry, we are often reminded how CANADA is not a part of the United States
(yet). You could have quite a commercial A-SAT, er sky-cleaning service going
in a few years.
"Toronto SkySweepers: Clear skies in 48 hours, or your money back."
Discount rates available for astro-researchers.
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Boom Whoosh
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 24
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r46ofINNdkugapcaltechedu palmerccocaltechedu David M Palmer writes
orbiting billboard
I would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an
object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital
velocity For a target 300 km above the surface of Earth
you need a deltav of 25 kms
Unfortunately if you launch this from the US or are a US citizen
you will need a launch permit from the Office of Commercial Space
Transportation and I think it may be difficult to get a permit for
an antisatellite weapon
Well Henry we are often reminded how CANADA is not a part of the United States
yet You could have quite a commercial ASAT er skycleaning service going
in a few years
Toronto SkySweepers Clear skies in 48 hours or your money back
Discount rates available for astroresearchers
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: ruca@pinkie.saber-si.pt (Rui Sousa)
Subject: Re: Potential World-Bearing Stars?
In-Reply-To: dan@visix.com's message of Mon, 12 Apr 1993 19:52:23 GMT
Lines: 17
Organization: SABER - Sistemas de Informacao, Lda.
In article <C5Dz7C.J0E@visix.com> dan@visix.com (Daniel Appelquist) writes:
I'm on a fact-finding mission, trying to find out if there exists a list of
potentially world-bearing stars within 100 light years of the Sun...
Is anyone currently working on this sort of thing? Thanks...
Dan
--
In principle, any star resembling the Sun (mass, luminosity) might have planets
located in a suitable orbit. There several within 100 ly of the sun. They are
single stars, for double or multiple systems might be troublesome. There's a
list located at ames.arc.nasa.gov somewhere in pub/SPACE. I think it is called
stars.dat. By the way, what kind of project, if I may know?
Rui
--
*** Infinity is at hand! Rui Sousa
*** If yours is big enough, grab it! ruca@saber-si.pt
All opinions expressed here are strictly my own
after prepro From rucapinkiesabersipt Rui Sousa
Subject Re Potential WorldBearing Stars
InReplyTo danvisixcoms message of Mon 12 Apr 1993 195223 GMT
Lines 17
Organization SABER Sistemas de Informacao Lda
In article danvisixcom Daniel Appelquist writes
Im on a factfinding mission trying to find out if there exists a list of
potentially worldbearing stars within 100 light years of the Sun
Is anyone currently working on this sort of thing Thanks
Dan
In principle any star resembling the Sun mass luminosity might have planets
located in a suitable orbit There several within 100 ly of the sun They are
single stars for double or multiple systems might be troublesome Theres a
list located at amesarcnasagov somewhere in pubSPACE I think it is called
starsdat By the way what kind of project if I may know
Rui
Infinity is at hand Rui Sousa
If yours is big enough grab it rucasabersipt
All opinions expressed here are strictly my own
preprocess doc From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Lines: 32
In <1pp6reINNonl@phantom.gatech.edu> matthew@phantom.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>In article <841@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:
>> Well this pretty much says it. I have gotten alot of replys to this
>>and it looks like oil is only on Earth. So if those greedy little oil companys
>>who obviously don't give **** about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us
>>high a dry.
>Greedy little oil companies? Don't blame them; oil companies just supply the
>demand created by you, me, and just about everyone else on the planet. If we
>run out, its all our faults.
He also ignores a few other things. While organics would become
significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear (and thus
some things would no longer be economically feasible), oil is hardly
an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables. As
supply decreases, prices rise and alternatives become more
competetive. He also needs to consider that there has been an
estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared
about petroleum; whatever the current usage rate is, we always seem to
have about a 30 year reserve that we know about.
[I'm not sure that last figure is still true -- we tend not to look as
hard when prices are comparatively cheap -- but it was certainly true
during hte 'oil crisis' days of the 70's.]
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
after prepro From mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Texas Instruments Inc
Lines 32
In 1pp6reINNonlphantomgatechedu matthewphantomgatechedu Matthew DeLuca writes
In article 841rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes
Well this pretty much says it I have gotten alot of replys to this
and it looks like oil is only on Earth So if those greedy little oil companys
who obviously dont give about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us
high a dry
Greedy little oil companies Dont blame them oil companies just supply the
demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet If we
run out its all our faults
He also ignores a few other things While organics would become
significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear and thus
some things would no longer be economically feasible oil is hardly
an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables As
supply decreases prices rise and alternatives become more
competetive He also needs to consider that there has been an
estimated 30 years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared
about petroleum whatever the current usage rate is we always seem to
have about a 30 year reserve that we know about
[Im not sure that last figure is still true we tend not to look as
hard when prices are comparatively cheap but it was certainly true
during hte oil crisis days of the 70s]
Insisting on perfect safety is for people who dont have the balls to live
in the real world Mary Shafer NASA Ames Dryden
FredMcCalldsegticom I dont speak for others and they dont speak for me
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: He has risen!
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Our Lord and Savior David Keresh has risen!
He has been seen alive!
Spread the word!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My sole intention was learning to fly."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject He has risen
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Our Lord and Savior David Keresh has risen
He has been seen alive
Spread the word
My sole intention was learning to fly
preprocess doc From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: What if the USSR had reached the Moon first?
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 25
Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first. They could have beaten us if either:
* Their rocket hadn't blown up on the pad thus setting them back,
and/or
* A Saturn V went boom.
If they had beaten us, I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings, but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base (both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon). Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go. Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars (at least in the short run). Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon.
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving |
| the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the |
| Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." |
| <John F. Kennedy; May 25, 1961> |
after prepro From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject What if the USSR had reached the Moon first
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 25
Suppose the Soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working
and had made it first They could have beaten us if either
Their rocket hadnt blown up on the pad thus setting them back
andor
A Saturn V went boom
If they had beaten us I speculate that the US would have gone
head and done some landings but we also would have been more
determined to set up a base both in Earth Orbit and on the
Moon Whether or not we would be on Mars by now would depend
upon whether the Soviets tried to go Setting up a lunar base
would have stretched the budgets of both nations and I think
that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value
of going to Mars at least in the short run Thus we would
have concentrated on the moon
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving
the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the
Moon and returning him safely to the Earth
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
<1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp>
<1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu>
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 53
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: dietz@cs.rochester.edu's message of 20 Apr 93 20:48:38 GMT
In article <1993Apr20.204838.13217@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
> be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
> materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
> and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
> grade fusion reactors.
problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some
This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth. As I recall, Wingo wasn't
...
even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
basalts. It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
mined today).
Why Paul, it's obvious.
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth,
as is being advocated by some groups, Ti prices will
sharply increase (we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing).
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance
:-) :-) :-)
(oops, this is sci.space... wrong rules of debate ;-)
Seriously, I'd say there is a flaw in Gary's analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy, maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use... as to why Lunar natives are cost effective,
analysis has shown they will be critical in providing
a sheltered manufacturing base, technological innovation,
critical materials and manpower in the war between
the Allies and Central Powers in about two hundred years...
;-)
| Steinn Sigurdsson |I saw two shooting stars last night |
| Lick Observatory |I wished on them but they were only satellites |
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware? |
| "standard disclaimer" |I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983 |
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp
1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 53
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto dietzcsrochesteredus message of 20 Apr 93 204838 GMT
In article 1993Apr2020483813217csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes
In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman writes
be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
grade fusion reactors
problem with 3He aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small on the order of 5 ppb or so on average more in some
This thread reminds me of Wingos claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth As I recall Wingo wasnt
even 1 of the basalts are 5 TiO2 this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 23 less than in lunar highTi
basalts It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being
mined today
Why Paul its obvious
Once chlorine chemistry has been banned on Earth
as is being advocated by some groups Ti prices will
sharply increase we are of course not allowed to
assume any developments in Ti processing
Lunar Ti will then be eminently competitive for
the trendy jewelry market and certain applications
of National Importance
oops this is scispace wrong rules of debate
Seriously Id say there is a flaw in Garys analysis
in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe
the lunatics will just want some native Ti for local
use as to why Lunar natives are cost effective
analysis has shown they will be critical in providing
a sheltered manufacturing base technological innovation
critical materials and manpower in the war between
the Allies and Central Powers in about two hundred years
Steinn Sigurdsson I saw two shooting stars last night
Lick Observatory I wished on them but they were only satellites
steinlylickucscedu Is it wrong to wish on space hardware
standard disclaimer I wish I wish I wish youd care BB 1983
preprocess doc From: baez@guitar.ucr.edu (john baez)
Subject: End of the Space Age
Article-I.D.: galaxy.29034
Organization: University of California, Riverside
Lines: 82
Nntp-Posting-Host: guitar.ucr.edu
There is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of today's
LA Times (Thursday April 15, 1993, p. D1). I thought I'd post it to
stir up some flame wars - I mean reasoned debate. Let me preface it by
saying that I largely agree that the "Space Age" in the romantic sense
of several decades ago is over, and that projects like the space station
miss the point at this time. Reading, for example, "What's New" -
the weekly physics update we get here on the net - it's clear that the
romance of the day lies in the ever more fine-grained manipulation of
matter: by which I include biotechnology, condensed matter physics (with
its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere), and the amazing things
people are doing with individual atoms these days. To a large extent, I
think, the romance some people still have with space is a matter of
nostalgia. I feel sure that someday we - or more precisely, our "mind
children" - will spread across space (unless we wipe ourselves out); but
I think that *manned* space exploration is not what is exciting about
what we can do *now*.
Anyway, let me quote some of this article, but not all...
SPACE AGE GLORY FADES FROM VIEW
Micheal Schrage (writer, consultant, and research associate at MIT)
At 35, America's Space Age won't have to suffer through the angst of a
midlife crisis.
The reason is that the Space Age is already dead. The technologies no
longer define our times, and the public has grown weary of the multibillion
-dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic
rewards.
Space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of America's science
and technology debate into a peripheral issue. Speace is not a
meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate, our
technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion
policy.
To be sure, America should continue to invest in satellite technologies
for telecommunications and remote sensing - cheap deep-space probes
would be nice too - but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of
scientific and industrial innovation is now dead.
.....
Before the change in administrations, it would have been foolish to
write an obituary for the Space Age. The Bush White House aggressively
supported the space program and proposed spending well over $30 billion
to build space station Freedom alone.
Even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains,
Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman was an outspoken
public champion of big-ticket space expenditures. The reality that much
of the civilian space program - from the shuttle to the Hubble telescope
to the space station - was poorly conceived and unimpressively
implemented did not seem to matter much.
Political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism - not a coherent
vision or cost-effective sensibilities - determined multibillion-dollar
space budgets.
Indeed, with few notable exceptions, such as Voyager, the post-Apollo
era is the story of the gold-plated porkification of space exploration
with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more.
......
While the Clinton Administration has kept on the highly regarded Daniel
Goldin as administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, it seems clear that space exploration is not being
positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of America's
technological prowess. The space station budget has - rightly - been
slashed. Space is virtually ignored when the Administration champions
its competitiveness agenda.
......
"I wish this had happened 10 years ago instead of starting to happen
now," says Bruce Murray, a Caltech professor who ran NASA's Jet
Propulsion Lab in Pasadena. "We've put off a lot of things we shouldn't
have.... I would rather see a $10-billion NASA doing well than a
$40-billion one filled with white elephants."
after prepro From baezguitarucredu john baez
Subject End of the Space Age
ArticleID galaxy29034
Organization University of California Riverside
Lines 82
NntpPostingHost guitarucredu
There is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of todays
LA Times Thursday April 15 1993 p D1 I thought Id post it to
stir up some flame wars I mean reasoned debate Let me preface it by
saying that I largely agree that the Space Age in the romantic sense
of several decades ago is over and that projects like the space station
miss the point at this time Reading for example Whats New
the weekly physics update we get here on the net its clear that the
romance of the day lies in the ever more finegrained manipulation of
matter by which I include biotechnology condensed matter physics with
its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere and the amazing things
people are doing with individual atoms these days To a large extent I
think the romance some people still have with space is a matter of
nostalgia I feel sure that someday we or more precisely our mind
children will spread across space unless we wipe ourselves out but
I think that manned space exploration is not what is exciting about
what we can do now
Anyway let me quote some of this article but not all
SPACE AGE GLORY FADES FROM VIEW
Micheal Schrage writer consultant and research associate at MIT
At 35 Americas Space Age wont have to suffer through the angst of a
midlife crisis
The reason is that the Space Age is already dead The technologies no
longer define our times and the public has grown weary of the multibillion
dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic
rewards
Space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of Americas science
and technology debate into a peripheral issue Speace is not a
meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate our
technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion
policy
To be sure America should continue to invest in satellite technologies
for telecommunications and remote sensing cheap deepspace probes
would be nice too but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of
scientific and industrial innovation is now dead
Before the change in administrations it would have been foolish to
write an obituary for the Space Age The Bush White House aggressively
supported the space program and proposed spending well over 30 billion
to build space station Freedom alone
Even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains
Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman was an outspoken
public champion of bigticket space expenditures The reality that much
of the civilian space program from the shuttle to the Hubble telescope
to the space station was poorly conceived and unimpressively
implemented did not seem to matter much
Political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism not a coherent
vision or costeffective sensibilities determined multibilliondollar
space budgets
Indeed with few notable exceptions such as Voyager the postApollo
era is the story of the goldplated porkification of space exploration
with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more
While the Clinton Administration has kept on the highly regarded Daniel
Goldin as administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration it seems clear that space exploration is not being
positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of Americas
technological prowess The space station budget has rightly been
slashed Space is virtually ignored when the Administration champions
its competitiveness agenda
I wish this had happened 10 years ago instead of starting to happen
now says Bruce Murray a Caltech professor who ran NASAs Jet
Propulsion Lab in Pasadena Weve put off a lot of things we shouldnt
have I would rather see a 10billion NASA doing well than a
40billion one filled with white elephants
preprocess doc From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 41
In article <843@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp> will@rins.ryukoku.ac.jp (William Reiken) writes:
>> The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
>> built is that there isn't any reason to do so. Natural uranium is
>> still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
>> technically reasonable.
>>
>
> November/December, 1987 page 21 - "Science and Technology in Japan".
> Seawater Uranium Recovery Experiment
> "The ground uranium reserves are estimated at about 3.6 million tons,
> and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the
> end of the 20th century. In Japan, a resources poor country, technological
> development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in
> seawater. The total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated
> to be about 4.6 billion tons, a huge amount when compared with ground uranium
> reserves......."
I hate to pour cold water on this, but currently seawater extracted
uranium, even using the new, improved fiber absorbers from Japan, is
about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market.
Uranium is *very* cheap right now, around $10/lb. Right now, there
are mines closing because they can't compete with places like Cigar
Lake in Canada (where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards
to the mines, who work in shielded vehicles). Plenty of other sources
(for example, uranium from phosphate processing) would come on line before
uranium reached $200/lb.
"Demand and supply balance will collapse" is nonsense. Supply and
demand always balance; what changes is the price. Is uranium going
to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century?
Not bloody likely. New nuclear reactors are not being built
at a sufficient rate.
Uranium from seawater is interesting, but it's a long term project, or
a project that the Japanese might justify on grounds of
self-sufficiency.
Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu
after prepro From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 41
In article 843rinsryukokuacjp willrinsryukokuacjp William Reiken writes
The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
built is that there isnt any reason to do so Natural uranium is
still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
technically reasonable
NovemberDecember 1987 page 21 Science and Technology in Japan
Seawater Uranium Recovery Experiment
The ground uranium reserves are estimated at about 36 million tons
and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the
end of the 20th century In Japan a resources poor country technological
development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in
seawater The total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated
to be about 46 billion tons a huge amount when compared with ground uranium
reserves
I hate to pour cold water on this but currently seawater extracted
uranium even using the new improved fiber absorbers from Japan is
about 20 times more expensive than uranium on the spot market
Uranium is very cheap right now around 10lb Right now there
are mines closing because they cant compete with places like Cigar
Lake in Canada where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards
to the mines who work in shielded vehicles Plenty of other sources
for example uranium from phosphate processing would come on line before
uranium reached 200lb
Demand and supply balance will collapse is nonsense Supply and
demand always balance what changes is the price Is uranium going
to increase in price by a factor of 20 by the end of the century
Not bloody likely New nuclear reactors are not being built
at a sufficient rate
Uranium from seawater is interesting but its a long term project or
a project that the Japanese might justify on grounds of
selfsufficiency
Paul F Dietz
dietzcsrochesteredu
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 44
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>>But, you don't know that capital punishment is wrong, so it isn't the same
>>as shooting. A better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car,
>>realizing that sooner or later, someone is going to be killed in an automobile
>>accident. You *know* people get killed as a result of driving, yet you
>>continue to do it anyway.
>Uh uh. You do not know that you will be the one to do the
>killing. I'm not sure I'd drive a car if I had sufficient evidence to
>conclude that I would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime.
Yes, and everyone thinks as you do. No one thinks that he is going to cause
or be involved in a fatal accident, but the likelihood is surprisingly high.
Just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting
blanks does not mean that you are less guilty.
>I don't know about Jon, but I say *ALL* taking of human life is
>murder. And I say murder is wrong in all but one situation: when
>it is the only action that will prevent another murder, either of
>myself or another.
You mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation? And, you should
note that that situation will never occur. There are always other options
thank killing. Why don't you just say that all killing is wrong. This
is basically what you are saying.
>I'm getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments.
Are you attempting to be condescending?
>That the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to
>the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection. Is your
>personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach?
>You sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many
>outweighing the needs of the few, so fuck the few.
But, most people have found the risk to be acceptable. You are probably
much more likely to die in a plane crash, or even using an electric
blender, than you are to be executed as an innocent. I personally think
that the risk is acceptable, but in an ideal moral system, no such risk
is acceptable. "Acceptable" is the fudge factor necessary in such an
approximation to the ideal.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re But you dont know that capital punishment is wrong so it isnt the same
as shooting A better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car
realizing that sooner or later someone is going to be killed in an automobile
accident You know people get killed as a result of driving yet you
continue to do it anyway
Uh uh You do not know that you will be the one to do the
killing Im not sure Id drive a car if I had sufficient evidence to
conclude that I would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime
Yes and everyone thinks as you do No one thinks that he is going to cause
or be involved in a fatal accident but the likelihood is surprisingly high
Just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting
blanks does not mean that you are less guilty
I dont know about Jon but I say ALL taking of human life is
murder And I say murder is wrong in all but one situation when
it is the only action that will prevent another murder either of
myself or another
You mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation And you should
note that that situation will never occur There are always other options
thank killing Why dont you just say that all killing is wrong This
is basically what you are saying
Im getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments
Are you attempting to be condescending
That the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to
the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection Is your
personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach
You sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many
outweighing the needs of the few so fuck the few
But most people have found the risk to be acceptable You are probably
much more likely to die in a plane crash or even using an electric
blender than you are to be executed as an innocent I personally think
that the risk is acceptable but in an ideal moral system no such risk
is acceptable Acceptable is the fudge factor necessary in such an
approximation to the ideal
keith
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: islamic genocide
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21
> O.K., so pick former Yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused
> by communism, it doesn't really matter. But I guess religious leaders are
> calling for an end to that, too, so it can't be religiously motivated. This
> despite the fact that the Christians carve crosses in dead Muslims chests.
> Maybe they just want land. Maybe its something else they want. Maybe the
> cross carvings are just accidental. I don't know. Just looks suspicious.
Most likely the tragic situation in Bosnia is a combination of ethnical
and religious motives, where religion is just one attribute that separates
the groups from each other.
But I must agree that the sad saga in Bosnia is a terrible example
of a case where religion is not helping, instead it is used as a weapon
against other humans. And my sympathies are mostly on the Bosnian side,
it looks like the Serbs are the oppressors, willing to use even
Christianity as a weapon against their former friends.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re islamic genocide
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21
OK so pick former Yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused
by communism it doesnt really matter But I guess religious leaders are
calling for an end to that too so it cant be religiously motivated This
despite the fact that the Christians carve crosses in dead Muslims chests
Maybe they just want land Maybe its something else they want Maybe the
cross carvings are just accidental I dont know Just looks suspicious
Most likely the tragic situation in Bosnia is a combination of ethnical
and religious motives where religion is just one attribute that separates
the groups from each other
But I must agree that the sad saga in Bosnia is a terrible example
of a case where religion is not helping instead it is used as a weapon
against other humans And my sympathies are mostly on the Bosnian side
it looks like the Serbs are the oppressors willing to use even
Christianity as a weapon against their former friends
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 12
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr22.164801.7530@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
>players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
>per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.
>
I don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity,
id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 12
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr221648017530julianuwoca jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems
I dont think so at first but solid state offered better reliabity
id bet and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up
pat
preprocess doc From: qpliu@ernie.Princeton.EDU (q.p.liu)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: ernie.princeton.edu
Reply-To: qpliu@princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 34
In article <1993Apr5.091139.823@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
>In article <16BA5DA01.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>, I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>> But could you give a definition of free will? Especially in the
>> presence of an omniscient being?
>"Will" is "self-determination". In other words, God created conscious
>beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
>of God. All "will", therefore, is "free will".
So these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of
their circumstances (their genetics, their environment, their experiences)
which are not all self-determined?
(Of course, the idea of Hell makes the idea of "free will" dubious.
On the other hand, the idea of Hell is not a very powerful idea.
"A Parable for You
"There was once our main character who blah blah blah.
"One day, a thug pointed a mean looking gun at OMC, and
said, 'Do what I say, or I'm blasting you to hell.'
"OMC thought, 'If I believe this thug, and follow the
instructions that will be given, I'll avoid getting blasted to
hell. On the other hand, if I believe this thug, and do not
follow the instructions that will be given, I'll get blasted to
hell. Hmm... the more attractive choice is obvious, I'll
follow the instructions.' Now, OMC found the choice obvious
because everything OMC had learned about getting blasted to
hell made it appear very undesirable.
"But then OMC noticed that the thug's gun wasn't a real
gun. The thug's threats were make believe.
"So OMC ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah.")
--
qpliu@princeton.edu Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.
after prepro From qpliuerniePrincetonEDU qpliu
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost ernieprincetonedu
ReplyTo qpliuprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 34
In article 1993Apr5091139823batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 16BA5DA01I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
But could you give a definition of free will Especially in the
presence of an omniscient being
Will is selfdetermination In other words God created conscious
beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently
of God All will therefore is free will
So these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of
their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences
which are not all selfdetermined
Of course the idea of Hell makes the idea of free will dubious
On the other hand the idea of Hell is not a very powerful idea
A Parable for You
There was once our main character who blah blah blah
One day a thug pointed a mean looking gun at OMC and
said Do what I say or Im blasting you to hell
OMC thought If I believe this thug and follow the
instructions that will be given Ill avoid getting blasted to
hell On the other hand if I believe this thug and do not
follow the instructions that will be given Ill get blasted to
hell Hmm the more attractive choice is obvious Ill
follow the instructions Now OMC found the choice obvious
because everything OMC had learned about getting blasted to
hell made it appear very undesirable
But then OMC noticed that the thugs gun wasnt a real
gun The thugs threats were make believe
So OMC ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah
qpliuprincetonedu Standard opinion Opinions are deltacorrelated
preprocess doc From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 12
With the continuin talk about the "End of the Space Age" and complaints
by government over the large cost, why not try something I read about
that might just work.
Announce that a reward of $1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year.
Then you'd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed. THere'd be a different kind of space race then!
--
gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
after prepro From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 12
With the continuin talk about the End of the Space Age and complaints
by government over the large cost why not try something I read about
that might just work
Announce that a reward of 1 billion would go to the first corporation
who successfully keeps at least 1 person alive on the moon for a year
Then youd see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin
to be developed THered be a different kind of space race then
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons!
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr21.001555.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such..
Why not?? If you can put them on "safe" "pause" mode.. why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft (manned?) to act as a naviagtion
beacon, to take a directional plot on??
Wierd or what?
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Old Spacecraft as NAvigation Beacons
ArticleID aurora1993Apr210015551
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 8
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such
Why not If you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be
activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion
beacon to take a directional plot on
Wierd or what
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc Subject: Re: There must be a creator! (Maybe)
From: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Reply-To: halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat)
Lines: 24
In article <16BA1E927.DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU>, DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter) writes:
>
> Science is wonderful at answering most of our questions. I'm not the type
>to question scientific findings very often, but... Personally, I find the
>theory of evolution to be unfathomable. Could humans, a highly evolved,
>complex organism that thinks, learns, and develops truly be an organism
>that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection?
[...stuff deleted...]
Computers are an excellent example...of evolution without "a" creator.
We did not "create" computers. We did not create the sand that goes
into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into
processor board. We took these things and put them together in an
interesting way. Just like plants "create" oxygen using light through
photosynthesis. It's a much bigger leap to talk about something that
created "everything" from nothing. I find it unfathomable to resort
to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists: we
simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings -- if there even
were beginnings at all. And that's ok with me. The present keeps me
perfectly busy.
-jim halat
after prepro Subject Re There must be a creator Maybe
From halatpoohbears Jim Halat
ReplyTo halatpoohbears Jim Halat
Lines 24
In article 16BA1E927DRPORTERSUVMSYREDU DRPORTERSUVMSYREDU Brad Porter writes
Science is wonderful at answering most of our questions Im not the type
to question scientific findings very often but Personally I find the
theory of evolution to be unfathomable Could humans a highly evolved
complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly be an organism
that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection
[stuff deleted]
Computers are an excellent exampleof evolution without a creator
We did not create computers We did not create the sand that goes
into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into
processor board We took these things and put them together in an
interesting way Just like plants create oxygen using light through
photosynthesis Its a much bigger leap to talk about something that
created everything from nothing I find it unfathomable to resort
to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists we
simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings if there even
were beginnings at all And thats ok with me The present keeps me
perfectly busy
jim halat
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 45
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr6.125608.7506@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
|In <1993Apr2.150038.2521@cs.rochester.edu> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
|>>
|>>Paul, quite frankly I'll believe that this is really going to work on
|>>the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
|>>tons in one end and get (relatively) clean material out the other end,
|>>plus be able to run it off its own residual power. Sounds almost like
|>>perpetual motion, doesn't it?
|
|I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
|technological and economic feasibility (given the mixed nature of the
|trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
|separating things first and having a different 'run' for each
|actinide) when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
|(relatively) clean material out the other. Once the costs,
|technological risks, etc., are taken into account I still class this
|one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun. Sure, it's possible
|and the physics are well understood, but is it really a reasonable
|approach?
|
How is it ever going to be an Off- the Shelf Technology if someone doesn't
do it? Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals. ;-)
Gee fred. After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF, Id think you would support a minor research program like this.
And does anyone who knows more Particle physics then me, know if the IPNS
could Prove this technology?
|
|>The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
|>built is that there isn't any reason to do so. Natural uranium is
|>still too cheap, and geological disposal of actinides looks
|>technically reasonable.
|
It may also help there is political gridlock on the entire
nuclear technical agenda. There were big political opponenents to
Fast Breeder Technologies. WIPP is being fought to death in Courts.
Even if you could make a nuclear incinerator, do you really think
even Deaf SMith County Nevada would accept it? NIMBY'ism rules
nuclear power concerns. Only the medical community has been
able to overrule nuclear technology opposition.
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 45
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr61256087506mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
In 1993Apr21500382521csrochesteredu dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz writes
Paul quite frankly Ill believe that this is really going to work on
the typical trash one needs to process when I see them put a couple
tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end
plus be able to run it off its own residual power Sounds almost like
perpetual motion doesnt it
I will believe that this process comes even close to approaching
technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the
trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of
separating things first and having a different run for each
actinide when I see them dump a few tons in one end and pull
relatively clean material out the other Once the costs
technological risks etc are taken into account I still class this
one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun Sure its possible
and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable
approach
How is it ever going to be an Off the Shelf Technology if someone doesnt
do it Maybe we should do this as part of the SSF design goals
Gee fred After your bitter defense of 20 KHz power as a Basic technology
for SSF Id think you would support a minor research program like this
And does anyone who knows more Particle physics then me know if the IPNS
could Prove this technology
The real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being
built is that there isnt any reason to do so Natural uranium is
still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks
technically reasonable
It may also help there is political gridlock on the entire
nuclear technical agenda There were big political opponenents to
Fast Breeder Technologies WIPP is being fought to death in Courts
Even if you could make a nuclear incinerator do you really think
even Deaf SMith County Nevada would accept it NIMBYism rules
nuclear power concerns Only the medical community has been
able to overrule nuclear technology opposition
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 10
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1r46j3INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
|
|>Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)
|
>Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!
Let it never be said that an opportunity was missed to put someone down.
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 10
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1r46j3INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method
Sherzer Methodology
Let it never be said that an opportunity was missed to put someone down
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: The Area Rule
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 20
Distribution: sci
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
I am sure Mary or Henry can describe this more aptly then me.
But here is how i understand it.
At Speed, Near supersonic. The wind behaves like a fluid pipe.
It becomes incompressible. So wind has to bend away from the
wing edges. AS the wing thickens, the more the pipes bend.
If they have no place to go, they begin to stall, and force
compression, stealing power from the vehicle (High Drag).
If you squeeze the fuselage, so that these pipes have aplace to bend
into, then drag is reduced.
Essentially, teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf
remain constant for all areas of the fuselage. That is where the wings are
subtract, teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re The Area Rule
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 20
Distribution sci
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
I am sure Mary or Henry can describe this more aptly then me
But here is how i understand it
At Speed Near supersonic The wind behaves like a fluid pipe
It becomes incompressible So wind has to bend away from the
wing edges AS the wing thickens the more the pipes bend
If they have no place to go they begin to stall and force
compression stealing power from the vehicle High Drag
If you squeeze the fuselage so that these pipes have aplace to bend
into then drag is reduced
Essentially teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf
remain constant for all areas of the fuselage That is where the wings are
subtract teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage
pat
preprocess doc From: dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com (Dennis Newkirk)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Motorola
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.1.146.43
Lines: 31
In article <1r54to$oh@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>The question i have about the proton, is could it be handled at
>one of KSC's spare pads, without major malfunction, or could it be
>handled at kourou or Vandenberg?
Seems like a lot of trouble to go to. Its probably better to
invest in newer launch systems. I don't think a big cost advantage
for using Russian systems will last for very long (maybe a few years).
Lockheed would be the place to ask, since you would probably have to buy
the Proton from them (they market the Proton world wide except Russia).
They should know a lot about the possibilities, I haven't heard them
propose US launches, so I assume they looked into it and found it
unprofitable.
>Now if it uses storables,
Yes...
>then how long would it take for the russians
>to equip something at cape york?
Comparable to the Zenit I suppose, but since it looks like
nothing will be built there, you might just as well pick any
spot.
The message is: to launch now while its cheap and while Russia and
Kazakstan are still cooperating. Later, the story may be different.
Dennis Newkirk (dennisn@ecs.comm.mot.com)
Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg, IL
after prepro From dennisnecscommmotcom Dennis Newkirk
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Motorola
NntpPostingHost 145114643
Lines 31
In article 1r54toohaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
The question i have about the proton is could it be handled at
one of KSCs spare pads without major malfunction or could it be
handled at kourou or Vandenberg
Seems like a lot of trouble to go to Its probably better to
invest in newer launch systems I dont think a big cost advantage
for using Russian systems will last for very long maybe a few years
Lockheed would be the place to ask since you would probably have to buy
the Proton from them they market the Proton world wide except Russia
They should know a lot about the possibilities I havent heard them
propose US launches so I assume they looked into it and found it
unprofitable
Now if it uses storables
Yes
then how long would it take for the russians
to equip something at cape york
Comparable to the Zenit I suppose but since it looks like
nothing will be built there you might just as well pick any
spot
The message is to launch now while its cheap and while Russia and
Kazakstan are still cooperating Later the story may be different
Dennis Newkirk dennisnecscommmotcom
Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Schaumburg IL
preprocess doc From: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Reply-To: pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com
Organization: TI/DSEG VAX Support
There are actually only two of us. I do Henry, Fred, Tommy and Mary. Oh yeah,
this isn't my real name, I'm a bald headed space baby.
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood. We need
pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909 |
after prepro From pyronskndivdsegticom Dillon Pyron
Subject Re How many read scispace
Lines 11
NntpPostingHost skndivdsegticom
ReplyTo pyronskndivdsegticom
Organization TIDSEG VAX Support
There are actually only two of us I do Henry Fred Tommy and Mary Oh yeah
this isnt my real name Im a bald headed space baby
Dillon Pyron The opinions expressed are those of the
TIDSEG Lewisville VAX Support sender unless otherwise stated
2144623556 when Im here
2144924656 when Im home Texans Vote NO on Robin Hood We need
pyronskndivdsegticom solutions not gestures
PADI DM54909
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 13
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.125245.12872@abo.fi> MANDTBACKA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Mats
> Andtbacka) writes:
> | "And these objective values are ... ?"
> |Please be specific, and more importantly, motivate.
>
> I'll take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable.
Yes, but whose freedom? The world in general doesn't seem to value the
freedom of Tibetans, for example.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
XNewsreader rusnews v101
Lines 13
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
In article 1993Apr1512524512872abofi MANDTBACKAFINABOABOFI Mats
Andtbacka writes
And these objective values are
Please be specific and more importantly motivate
Ill take a wild guess and say Freedom is objectively valuable
Yes but whose freedom The world in general doesnt seem to value the
freedom of Tibetans for example
mathew
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 22
Jim Perry (perry@dsinc.com) wrote:
: The Bible says there is a God; if that is true then our atheism is
: mistaken. What of it? Seems pretty obvious to me. Socrates said
: there were many gods; if that is true then your monotheism (and our
: atheism) is mistaken, even if Socrates never existed.
Jim,
I think you must have come in late. The discussion (on my part at
least) began with Benedikt's questioning of the historical acuuracy of
the NT. I was making the point that, if the same standards are used to
validate secular history that are used here to discredit NT history,
then virtually nothing is known of the first century.
You seem to be saying that the Bible -cannot- be true because it
speaks of the existence of God as it it were a fact. Your objection
has nothing to do with history, it is merely another statement of
atheism.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 22
Jim Perry perrydsinccom wrote
The Bible says there is a God if that is true then our atheism is
mistaken What of it Seems pretty obvious to me Socrates said
there were many gods if that is true then your monotheism and our
atheism is mistaken even if Socrates never existed
Jim
I think you must have come in late The discussion on my part at
least began with Benedikts questioning of the historical acuuracy of
the NT I was making the point that if the same standards are used to
validate secular history that are used here to discredit NT history
then virtually nothing is known of the first century
You seem to be saying that the Bible cannot be true because it
speaks of the existence of God as it it were a fact Your objection
has nothing to do with history it is merely another statement of
atheism
Bill
preprocess doc From: daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (S.F. Davis)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing/temporary orbit
Organization: NSPC
Lines: 46
In article <pgf.735012282@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>, pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
|> rls@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Ray Swartz (Oh, that guy again)) writes:
|>
|> >The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit 'fuzzy regions'. These
|> >are described by the inventor as exploiting the second-order perturbations in a
|> >three body system. The probe was launched into this region for the
|> >earth-moon-sun system, where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
|> >allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
|> >down. The idea is that 'natural objects sometimes get captured without
|> >expending fuel, we'll just find the trajectory that makes it possible". The
|> >originator of the technique said that NASA wasn't interested, but that Japan
|> >was because their probe was small and couldn't hold a lot of fuel for
|> >deceleration.
|>
|>
|> I should probably re-post this with another title, so that
|> the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
|> use of "temporary orbits..."
|>
|> Another possible temporary orbit:
|>
|> --
|> Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
|> pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
|>
|>
If you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained
you should try and find the following paper:
Hiroshi Yamakawa, Jun'ichiro Kawaguchi, Nobuaki Ishii,
and Hiroki Matsuo, "A Numerical Study of Gravitational Capture
Orbit in the Earth-Moon System," AAS-92-186, AAS/AIAA Spaceflight
Mechanics Meeting, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 1992.
The references included in this paper are quite interesting also and
include several that are specific to the HITEN mission itself.
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
| * _!!!!_ * |
| Steven Davis * / \ \ * |
| daviss@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov * (<o><o>) * |
| * \>_db_</ * McDonnell Douglas |
| - I don't represent * |vv| * Space Systems Company|
| anybody but myself. - * (__) * Houston Division |
|--------------------------------- ******** -------------------------|
after prepro From davisssweetpeajscnasagov SF Davis
Subject Re japanese moon landingtemporary orbit
Organization NSPC
Lines 46
In article pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering writes
rlsuihepahepuiucedu Ray Swartz Oh that guy again writes
The gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions These
are described by the inventor as exploiting the secondorder perturbations in a
three body system The probe was launched into this region for the
earthmoonsun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to
allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow
down The idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without
expending fuel well just find the trajectory that makes it possible The
originator of the technique said that NASA wasnt interested but that Japan
was because their probe was small and couldnt hold a lot of fuel for
deceleration
I should probably repost this with another title so that
the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical
use of temporary orbits
Another possible temporary orbit
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
If you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained
you should try and find the following paper
Hiroshi Yamakawa Junichiro Kawaguchi Nobuaki Ishii
and Hiroki Matsuo A Numerical Study of Gravitational Capture
Orbit in the EarthMoon System AAS92186 AASAIAA Spaceflight
Mechanics Meeting Colorado Springs Colorado 1992
The references included in this paper are quite interesting also and
include several that are specific to the HITEN mission itself
__
Steven Davis \ \
davisssweetpeajscnasagov
\_db_ McDonnell Douglas
I dont represent vv Space Systems Company
anybody but myself __ Houston Division
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.01
Lines: 11
mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough) writes:
> I think you mean circular, not recursive, but that is semantics.
> Recursiveness has no problems, it is just horribly inefficient (just ask
> any assembly programmer.)
Tail-recursive functions in Scheme are at least as efficient as iterative
loops. Anyone who doesn't program in assembler will have heard of optimizing
compilers.
mathew
after prepro From mathew
Subject Re I think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics
Recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask
any assembly programmer
Tailrecursive functions in Scheme are at least as efficient as iterative
loops Anyone who doesnt program in assembler will have heard of optimizing
compilers
mathew
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: A visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 51
In article <1993Apr2.115300.803@batman.bmd.trw.com>, jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> In article <C4twso.8M2@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, mukesh@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Mukesh Prasad) writes:
|> > In article <1993Apr1.142854.794@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
|> >> In article <1p8v1aINN9e9@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, strat@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis) writes:
|> >> > bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
|> >> >
|> >> >>- The Earth is evil because Satan rules over it.
|> >> >
|> >> > This is a new one to me. I guess it's been a while since a Witness
|> >> > bothered with me. Are they implying that Satan is omniscient? You
|> >> > might try tricking them into saying that Satan is 'all-knowing' and
|> >> > then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are
|> >> > self-contradictary.
|> >>
|> >> No, Satan is not omniscient, but he does hold dominion over the earth
|> >> according to Christian theology (note, not to be confused with JW's
|> >> theology).
|> >>
|> >
|> > What are the standard theologies on who/what created Satan,
|> > and why?
|> >
|>
|> Orthodox Christian theology states that God created Lucifer (Satan)
|> along with the other angels, presumably because He wanted beings to
|> celebrate (glorify) existence and life (and thereby, God) along with
|> Him. Actually the whys and wherefores of God's motivations for
|> creating the angels are not a big issue within Christian theology.
|>
|> But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
|> the other angels free moral will. Lucifer was a high angel (perhaps
|> the highest) with great authority. It seems that his greatness caused
|> him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or
|> greater than God. He forgot his place as a created being. He exalted
|> himself above God, and thereby evil and sin entered creation.
Actually, the story goes that Lucifer refused to bow before MAN as
God commanded him to. Lucifer was devoted to God.
Oh yeah, there is nothing in Genesis that says the snake was anything
more than a snake (well, a talking one...had legs at the time, too).
I don't think pointing out contradictions in STORIES is the best way
to show the error in theology: if they think a supernatural entity
kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a
fruit that gave them special powers...well, they might not respond
well to reason and logic. :^)
Brian /-|-\
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re A visit from the Jehovahs Witnesses
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 51
In article 1993Apr2115300803batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article mukeshHQIleafCOM Mukesh Prasad writes
In article 1993Apr1142854794batmanbmdtrwcom jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
In article 1p8v1aINN9e9mattksuksuedu stratmattksuksuedu Steve Davis writes
bskendignetcomcom Brian Kendig writes
The Earth is evil because Satan rules over it
This is a new one to me I guess its been a while since a Witness
bothered with me Are they implying that Satan is omniscient You
might try tricking them into saying that Satan is allknowing and
then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are
selfcontradictary
No Satan is not omniscient but he does hold dominion over the earth
according to Christian theology note not to be confused with JWs
theology
What are the standard theologies on whowhat created Satan
and why
Orthodox Christian theology states that God created Lucifer Satan
along with the other angels presumably because He wanted beings to
celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby God along with
Him Actually the whys and wherefores of Gods motivations for
creating the angels are not a big issue within Christian theology
But God created Lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with
the other angels free moral will Lucifer was a high angel perhaps
the highest with great authority It seems that his greatness caused
him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or
greater than God He forgot his place as a created being He exalted
himself above God and thereby evil and sin entered creation
Actually the story goes that Lucifer refused to bow before MAN as
God commanded him to Lucifer was devoted to God
Oh yeah there is nothing in Genesis that says the snake was anything
more than a snake well a talking onehad legs at the time too
I dont think pointing out contradictions in STORIES is the best way
to show the error in theology if they think a supernatural entity
kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a
fruit that gave them special powerswell they might not respond
well to reason and logic ^
Brian \
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 29
In article <C5qt5p.Mvo@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu
(Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>
> In article <115694@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> >I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
> >deviant the view _as I've articulated it above_ (which may not be
> >the true view of Khomeini) is from the basic principles of Islam.
>
> From the point ov view of an atheist, I see you claim Khomeini wasn't
> practicing true Islam. But I'm sure that he would have said the same about
> you. How am I, a member of neither group, supposed to be able to tell which
> one of you two is really a true Muslim?
Fred Rice answered this already in an early posting:
"The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be "faking it". This is something known only by
the person him/herself (and God). Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true."
In other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and
false Muslim. We are back to square one, Khomeini and Hussein are
still innocent and can't be defined as evil or good Islamic
worshippers.
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 29
In article arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu
Ken Arromdee wrote
In article 115694buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
I think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how
deviant the view _as Ive articulated it above_ which may not be
the true view of Khomeini is from the basic principles of Islam
From the point ov view of an atheist I see you claim Khomeini wasnt
practicing true Islam But Im sure that he would have said the same about
you How am I a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which
one of you two is really a true Muslim
Fred Rice answered this already in an early posting
The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be faking it This is something known only by
the person himherself and God Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a believer _is_ a believer is not necessarily true
In other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and
false Muslim We are back to square one Khomeini and Hussein are
still innocent and cant be defined as evil or good Islamic
worshippers
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 15/15 - Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
Supersedes: <launchers_730956689@cs.unc.edu>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 195
Distribution: world
Expires: 6 May 1993 20:02:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Archive-name: space/launchers
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:11 $
ORBITAL AND PLANETARY LAUNCH SERVICES
The following data comes from _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_ by Steven J. Isakowitz, 1991 edition.
Notes:
* Unless otherwise specified, LEO and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm
orbit.
* Reliablity data includes launches through Dec, 1990. Reliabity for a
familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when
applicable
* Prices are in millions of 1990 $US and are subject to change.
* Only operational vehicle families are included. Individual vehicles
which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk (*) If a vehicle
had first launch after publication of my data, it may still be
marked with an asterisk.
Vehicle | Payload kg (lbs) | Reliability | Price | Launch Site
(nation) | LEO Polar GTO | | | (Lat. & Long.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ariane 35/40 87.5% Kourou
(ESA) (5.2 N, 52.8 W)
AR40 4,900 3,900 1,900 1/1 $65m
(10,800) (8,580) (4,190)
AR42P 6,100 4,800 2,600 1/1 $67m
(13,400) (10,600) (5,730)
AR44P 6,900 5,500 3,000 0/0 ? $70m
(15,200) (12,100) (6,610)
AR42L 7,400 5,900 3,200 0/0 ? $90m
(16,300) (13,000) (7,050)
AR44LP 8,300 6,600 3,700 6/6 $95m
(18,300) (14,500) (8,160)
AR44L 9,600 7,700 4,200 3/4 $115m
(21,100) (16,900) (9,260)
* AR5 18,000 ??? 6,800 0/0 $105m
(39,600) (15,000)
[300nm]
Atlas 213/245 86.9% Cape Canaveral
(USA) (28.5 N, 81.0W)
Atlas E -- 820 -- 15/17 $45m Vandeberg AFB
(1,800) (34.7 N, 120.6W)
Atlas I 5,580 4,670 2,250 1/1 $70m
(12,300) (10,300) (4,950)
Atlas II 6,395 5,400 2,680 0/0 $75m
(14,100) (11,900) (5,900)
Atlas IIA 6,760 5,715 2,810 0/0 $85m
(14,900) (12,600) (6,200)
* Atlas IIAS 8,390 6,805 3,490 0/0 $115m
(18,500) (15,000) (7,700)
Delta 189/201 94.0% Cape Canaveral
(USA) Vandenberg AFB
Delta 6925 3,900 2,950 1,450 14/14 $45m
(8,780) (6,490) (3,190)
Delta 7925 5,045 3,830 1,820 1/1 $50m
(11,100) (8,420) (2,000)
Energia 2/2 100% Baikonur
(Russia) (45.6 N 63.4 E)
Energia 88,000 80,000 ??? 2/2 $110m
(194,000) (176,000)
H series 22/22 100% Tangeshima
(Japan) (30.2 N 130.6 E)
* H-2 10,500 6,600 4,000 0/0 $110m
(23,000) (14,500) (8,800)
Kosmos 371/377 98.4% Plestek
(Russia) (62.8 N 40.1 E)
Kosmos 1100 - 1350 (2300 - 3000) $??? Kapustin Yar
[400 km orbit ??? inclination] (48.4 N 45.8 E)
Long March 23/25 92.0% Jiquan SLC
(China) (41 N 100 E)
* CZ-1D 720 ??? 200 0/0 $10m Xichang SLC
(1,590) (440) (28 N 102 E)
Taiyuan SLC
CZ-2C 3,200 1,750 1,000 12/12 $20m (41 N 100 E)
(7,040) (3,860) (2,200)
CZ-2E 9,200 ??? 3,370 1/1 $40m
(20,300) (7,430)
* CZ-2E/HO 13,600 ??? 4,500 0/0 $???
(29,900) (9,900)
CZ-3 ??? ??? 1,400 6/7 $33m
(3,100)
* CZ-3A ??? ??? 2,500 0/0 $???m
(5,500)
CZ-4 4,000 ??? 1,100 2/2 $???m
(8,800) (2,430)
Pegasus/Taurus 2/2 100% Peg: B-52/L1011
(USA) Taur: Canaveral
Pegasus 455 365 125 2/2 $10m or Vandenberg
(1,000) (800) (275)
* Taurus 1,450 1,180 375 0/0 $15m
(3,200) (2,600) (830)
Proton 164/187 87.7% Baikonour
(Russia)
Proton 20,000 ??? 5,500 164/187 $35-70m
(44,100) (12,200)
SCOUT 99/113 87.6% Vandenberg AFB
(USA) Wallops FF
SCOUT G-1 270 210 54 13/13 $12m (37.9 N 75.4 W)
(600) (460) (120) San Marco
(2.9 S 40.3 E)
* Enhanced SCOUT 525 372 110 0/0 $15m
(1,160) (820) (240)
Shavit 2/2 100% Palmachim AFB
(Israel) ( ~31 N)
Shavit ??? 160 ??? 2/2 $22m
(350)
Space Shuttle 37/38 97.4% Kennedy Space
(USA) Center
Shuttle/SRB 23,500 ??? 5,900 37/38 $248m (28.5 N 81.0 W)
(51,800) (13,000) [FY88]
* Shuttle/ASRM 27,100 ??? ??? 0/0
(59,800)
SLV 2/6 33.3% SHAR Center
(India) (400km) (900km polar) (13.9 N 80.4 E)
ASLV 150 ??? ??? 0/2 $???m
(330)
* PSLV 3,000 1,000 450 0/0 $???m
(6,600) (2,200) (990)
* GSLV 8,000 ??? 2,500 0/0 $???m
(17,600) (5,500)
Titan 160/172 93.0% Cape Canaveral
(USA) Vandenberg
Titan II ??? 1,905 ??? 2/2 $43m
(4,200)
Titan III 14,515 ??? 5,000 2/3 $140m
(32,000) (11,000)
Titan IV/SRM 17,700 14,100 6,350 3/3 $154m-$227m
(39,000) (31,100) (14,000)
Titan IV/SRMU 21,640 18,600 8,620 0/0 $???m
(47,700) (41,000) (19,000)
Vostok 1358/1401 96.9% Baikonur
(Russia) [650km] Plesetsk
Vostok 4,730 1,840 ??? ?/149 $14m
(10,400) (4,060)
Soyuz 7,000 ??? ??? ?/944 $15m
(15,400)
Molniya 1500kg (3300 lbs) in ?/258 $???M
Highly eliptical orbit
Zenit 12/13 92.3% Baikonur
(Russia)
Zenit 13,740 11,380 4,300 12/13 $65m
(30,300) (25,090) (9,480)
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 1515 Orbital and Planetary Launch Services
Supersedes
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 195
Distribution world
Expires 6 May 1993 200247 GMT
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
Archivename spacelaunchers
Lastmodified Date 930401 143911
ORBITAL AND PLANETARY LAUNCH SERVICES
The following data comes from _International Reference Guide to Space Launch
Systems_ by Steven J Isakowitz 1991 edition
Notes
Unless otherwise specified LEO and polar paylaods are for a 100 nm
orbit
Reliablity data includes launches through Dec 1990 Reliabity for a
familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when
applicable
Prices are in millions of 1990 US and are subject to change
Only operational vehicle families are included Individual vehicles
which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk If a vehicle
had first launch after publication of my data it may still be
marked with an asterisk
Vehicle Payload kg lbs Reliability Price Launch Site
nation LEO Polar GTO Lat Long
Ariane 3540 875 Kourou
ESA 52 N 528 W
AR40 4900 3900 1900 11 65m
10800 8580 4190
AR42P 6100 4800 2600 11 67m
13400 10600 5730
AR44P 6900 5500 3000 00 70m
15200 12100 6610
AR42L 7400 5900 3200 00 90m
16300 13000 7050
AR44LP 8300 6600 3700 66 95m
18300 14500 8160
AR44L 9600 7700 4200 34 115m
21100 16900 9260
AR5 18000 6800 00 105m
39600 15000
[300nm]
Atlas 213245 869 Cape Canaveral
USA 285 N 810W
Atlas E 820 1517 45m Vandeberg AFB
1800 347 N 1206W
Atlas I 5580 4670 2250 11 70m
12300 10300 4950
Atlas II 6395 5400 2680 00 75m
14100 11900 5900
Atlas IIA 6760 5715 2810 00 85m
14900 12600 6200
Atlas IIAS 8390 6805 3490 00 115m
18500 15000 7700
Delta 189201 940 Cape Canaveral
USA Vandenberg AFB
Delta 6925 3900 2950 1450 1414 45m
8780 6490 3190
Delta 7925 5045 3830 1820 11 50m
11100 8420 2000
Energia 22 100 Baikonur
Russia 456 N 634 E
Energia 88000 80000 22 110m
194000 176000
H series 2222 100 Tangeshima
Japan 302 N 1306 E
H2 10500 6600 4000 00 110m
23000 14500 8800
Kosmos 371377 984 Plestek
Russia 628 N 401 E
Kosmos 1100 1350 2300 3000 Kapustin Yar
[400 km orbit inclination] 484 N 458 E
Long March 2325 920 Jiquan SLC
China 41 N 100 E
CZ1D 720 200 00 10m Xichang SLC
1590 440 28 N 102 E
Taiyuan SLC
CZ2C 3200 1750 1000 1212 20m 41 N 100 E
7040 3860 2200
CZ2E 9200 3370 11 40m
20300 7430
CZ2EHO 13600 4500 00
29900 9900
CZ3 1400 67 33m
3100
CZ3A 2500 00 m
5500
CZ4 4000 1100 22 m
8800 2430
PegasusTaurus 22 100 Peg B52L1011
USA Taur Canaveral
Pegasus 455 365 125 22 10m or Vandenberg
1000 800 275
Taurus 1450 1180 375 00 15m
3200 2600 830
Proton 164187 877 Baikonour
Russia
Proton 20000 5500 164187 3570m
44100 12200
SCOUT 99113 876 Vandenberg AFB
USA Wallops FF
SCOUT G1 270 210 54 1313 12m 379 N 754 W
600 460 120 San Marco
29 S 403 E
Enhanced SCOUT 525 372 110 00 15m
1160 820 240
Shavit 22 100 Palmachim AFB
Israel 31 N
Shavit 160 22 22m
350
Space Shuttle 3738 974 Kennedy Space
USA Center
ShuttleSRB 23500 5900 3738 248m 285 N 810 W
51800 13000 [FY88]
ShuttleASRM 27100 00
59800
SLV 26 333 SHAR Center
India 400km 900km polar 139 N 804 E
ASLV 150 02 m
330
PSLV 3000 1000 450 00 m
6600 2200 990
GSLV 8000 2500 00 m
17600 5500
Titan 160172 930 Cape Canaveral
USA Vandenberg
Titan II 1905 22 43m
4200
Titan III 14515 5000 23 140m
32000 11000
Titan IVSRM 17700 14100 6350 33 154m227m
39000 31100 14000
Titan IVSRMU 21640 18600 8620 00 m
47700 41000 19000
Vostok 13581401 969 Baikonur
Russia [650km] Plesetsk
Vostok 4730 1840 149 14m
10400 4060
Soyuz 7000 944 15m
15400
Molniya 1500kg 3300 lbs in 258 M
Highly eliptical orbit
Zenit 1213 923 Baikonur
Russia
Zenit 13740 11380 4300 1213 65m
30300 25090 9480
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <C5xuGL.Jow@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>, xrcjd@mudpuppy.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine) writes...
>Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in today's Washington Post that Joseph Shea, the
>head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons.
>
>Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February. He returned
>yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel.
>Shea's presentation was rambling and almost inaudible.
I missed the presentations given in the morning session (when Shea gave
his "rambling and almost inaudible" presentation), but I did attend
the afternoon session. The meeting was in a small conference room. The
speaker was wired with a mike, and there were microphones on the table for
the panel members to use. Peons (like me) sat in a foyer outside the
conference room, and watched the presentations on closed circuit TV. In
general, the sound system was fair to poor, and some of the other
speakers (like the committee member from the Italian Space Agency)
also were "almost inaudible."
Shea didn't "lead the formal presentation," in the sense of running
or guiding the presentation. He didn't even attend the afternoon
session. Vest ran the show (President of MIT, the chair of the
advisory panel).
>
>Shea's deputy, former astronaut Bryan O'Connor, will take over the effort.
Note that O'Connor has been running the day-to-day
operations of the of the redesign team since Shea got sick (which
was immediately after the panel was formed).
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Re Space Station Redesign Chief Resigns for Health Reasons
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 30
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article xrcjdmudpuppygsfcnasagov Charles J Divine writes
Writer Kathy Sawyer reported in todays Washington Post that Joseph Shea the
head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons
Shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in February He returned
yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent White House panel
Sheas presentation was rambling and almost inaudible
I missed the presentations given in the morning session when Shea gave
his rambling and almost inaudible presentation but I did attend
the afternoon session The meeting was in a small conference room The
speaker was wired with a mike and there were microphones on the table for
the panel members to use Peons like me sat in a foyer outside the
conference room and watched the presentations on closed circuit TV In
general the sound system was fair to poor and some of the other
speakers like the committee member from the Italian Space Agency
also were almost inaudible
Shea didnt lead the formal presentation in the sense of running
or guiding the presentation He didnt even attend the afternoon
session Vest ran the show President of MIT the chair of the
advisory panel
Sheas deputy former astronaut Bryan OConnor will take over the effort
Note that OConnor has been running the daytoday
operations of the of the redesign team since Shea got sick which
was immediately after the panel was formed
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Stereo Pix of planets?y
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
In article <1993Apr20.010326.8634@csus.edu>, arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler) writes:
> Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
> planetary satellite surfaces? GIFs preferred, but any will do. I'm
> especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos, Deimos, Mars
> and the Moon (in that order).
> Thanks.
ames.arc.nasa.gov not sure what subdirectory thou..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
PS: I know it has a GIF area as well as SPACE and other info..
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Stereo Pix of planetsy
Lines 15
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
In article 1993Apr200103268634csusedu arthurcsfsuvax1sfsuedu Arthur Chandler writes
Can anyone tell me where I might find stereo images of planetary and
planetary satellite surfaces GIFs preferred but any will do Im
especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of Phobos Deimos Mars
and the Moon in that order
Thanks
amesarcnasagov not sure what subdirectory thou
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
PS I know it has a GIF area as well as SPACE and other info
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 23
Distribution: sci
<1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: jafoust@cco.caltech.edu's message of 23 Apr 1993 18:44:19 GMT
In article <1r9de3INNjkv@gap.caltech.edu> jafoust@cco.caltech.edu (Jeff Foust) writes:
In a recent article jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> If the new Kuiper belt object *is* called 'Karla', the next
>one should be called 'Smiley'.
Unless I'm imaging things, (always a possibility =) 1992 QB1, the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year, is known as Smiley.
As it happens the _second_ one is Karla. The first one was
Smiley. All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course,
but I think they might let this one slide...
* Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory *
* steinly@lick.ucsc.edu "standard disclaimer" *
* "The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his *
* revolution is unnecessary, that the problems can be corrected without *
* radical change. Telling people that paradise can be attained without *
* revolution is treason of the vilest kind." -- H.S. 1993 *
Just had to try out my new .sig# on this forum ;-)
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 23
Distribution sci
1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto jafoustccocaltechedus message of 23 Apr 1993 184419 GMT
In article 1r9de3INNjkvgapcaltechedu jafoustccocaltechedu Jeff Foust writes
In a recent article jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll writes
If the new Kuiper belt object is called Karla the next
one should be called Smiley
Unless Im imaging things always a possibility 1992 QB1 the Kuiper Belt
object discovered last year is known as Smiley
As it happens the _second_ one is Karla The first one was
Smiley All subject to the vagaries of the IAU of course
but I think they might let this one slide
Steinn Sigurdsson Lick Observatory
steinlylickucscedu standard disclaimer
The worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his
revolution is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without
radical change Telling people that paradise can be attained without
revolution is treason of the vilest kind HS 1993
Just had to try out my new sig on this forum
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 49
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
>>a certain species has developed in order to survive.
>Wait. Are we talking about ethics or morals here?
Is the distinction important?
>>We see this countless
>>times in the animal kingdom, and such a "natural" system is the basis for
>>our own system as well.
>Huh?
Well, our moral system seems to mimic the natural one, in a number of ways.
>>In order for humans to thrive, we seem to need
>>to live in groups,
>Here's your problem. "we *SEEM* to need". What's wrong with the highlighted
>word?
I don't know. What is wrong? Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild? Yes, it's possible, but it is difficult. Humans
are a social animal, and that is a cause of our success.
>>and in order for a group to function effectively, it
>>needs some sort of ethical code.
>This statement is not correct.
Isn't it? Why don't you think so?
>>And, by pointing out that a species' conduct serves to propogate itself,
>>I am not trying to give you your tautology, but I am trying to show that
>>such are examples of moral systems with a goal. Propogation of the species
>>is a goal of a natural system of morality.
>So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral? After all,
>in order to ensure propogation of the species, every man should impregnate
>as many women as possible.
No. As noted earlier, lack of mating (such as abstinence or homosexuality)
isn't really destructive to the system. It is a worst neutral.
>For that matter, in herds of horses, only the dominate stallion mates. When
>he dies/is killed/whatever, the new dominate stallion is the only one who
>mates. These seems to be a case of your "natural system of morality" trying
>to shoot itself in the figurative foot.
Again, the mating practices are something to be reexamined...
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that
a certain species has developed in order to survive
Wait Are we talking about ethics or morals here
Is the distinction important
We see this countless
times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for
our own system as well
Huh
Well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways
In order for humans to thrive we seem to need
to live in groups
Heres your problem we SEEM to need Whats wrong with the highlighted
word
I dont know What is wrong Is it possible for humans to survive for
a long time in the wild Yes its possible but it is difficult Humans
are a social animal and that is a cause of our success
and in order for a group to function effectively it
needs some sort of ethical code
This statement is not correct
Isnt it Why dont you think so
And by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself
I am not trying to give you your tautology but I am trying to show that
such are examples of moral systems with a goal Propogation of the species
is a goal of a natural system of morality
So anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral After all
in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate
as many women as possible
No As noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality
isnt really destructive to the system It is a worst neutral
For that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates When
he diesis killedwhatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who
mates These seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying
to shoot itself in the figurative foot
Again the mating practices are something to be reexamined
keith
preprocess doc From: nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Jemison on Star Trek
Article-I.D.: aurora.1993Apr20.142747.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu
In article <C5sB3p.IB9@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, loss@fs7.ECE.CMU.EDU (Doug Loss) writes:
> I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr. Mae Jemison, the first
> black woman in space (she's a physician and chemical engineer who flew
> on Endeavour last year) will appear as a transporter operator on the
> "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode that airs the week of May 31.
> It's hardly space science, I know, but it's interesting.
>
> Doug Loss
Interesting is rigth.. I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits.. I think it might help people connect the future of
space with the present.. And give them an idea that we must go into space..
==
Michael Adams, nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu -- I'm not high, just jacked
after prepro From nsmcaauroraalaskaedu
Subject Re Jemison on Star Trek
ArticleID aurora1993Apr201427471
Organization University of Alaska Fairbanks
Lines 16
NntpPostingHost acad3alaskaedu
In article lossfs7ECECMUEDU Doug Loss writes
I saw in the newspaper last night that Dr Mae Jemison the first
black woman in space shes a physician and chemical engineer who flew
on Endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the
Star Trek The Next Generation episode that airs the week of May 31
Its hardly space science I know but its interesting
Doug Loss
Interesting is rigth I wonder if they will make a mention of her being an
astronaut in the credits I think it might help people connect the future of
space with the present And give them an idea that we must go into space
Michael Adams nsmcaacad3alaskaedu Im not high just jacked
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Death Penalty (was Re: Political Atheists?)
From: SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET)
Distribution: world
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com's message of 16 Apr 93 16:37:29 MSTLines: 34
Lines: 34
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes: >
( in <1993Apr16.163729.867@batman.bmd.trw.com> )
( responding to Dave "First With Official A.A Nickname" Fuller )
[ ... ]
> The death penalty IS a deterrent, Dave. The person executed will never
> commit a crime again. Guaranteed. [ ... ]
That means that it is an effective anti-recidivism measure. It does
not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime
in the first place.
The true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually
stop one from murdering. (Or commiting treason -- are there any other
capital crimes anywhere in the USA?) That is, if there were no death
penalty, would its introduction deter a would-be criminal from
committing her/his crime? I doubt it.
This is only the first step. Even if it were a strong deterrent
(short of being a complete deterrent) I would reject it. For what
about the case of the innocent executed?
And even if we could eliminate this possibility, I would reject the
death penalty as immoral. This makes me something of a radical on
the issue, although I think there are many opponents of captial
punishment who agree with me, but who find the innocent executed the
strongest argument to make.
I would, if magically placed in charge, facilitate state-aided suicide
for criminals who have life-sentences. This could be a replacement
for capital punishment. Those who don't want to live the rest of
their lives in jail would always have this option.
-- Scott Sauyet ssauyet@eagle.wesleyan.edu
after prepro Subject Re Death Penalty was Re Political Atheists
From SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu SCOTT D SAUYET
Distribution world
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
XNewsReader VMS NEWS 120InReplyTo jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcoms message of 16 Apr 93 163729 MSTLines 34
Lines 34
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
in 1993Apr16163729867batmanbmdtrwcom
responding to Dave First With Official AA Nickname Fuller
[ ]
The death penalty IS a deterrent Dave The person executed will never
commit a crime again Guaranteed [ ]
That means that it is an effective antirecidivism measure It does
not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime
in the first place
The true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually
stop one from murdering Or commiting treason are there any other
capital crimes anywhere in the USA That is if there were no death
penalty would its introduction deter a wouldbe criminal from
committing herhis crime I doubt it
This is only the first step Even if it were a strong deterrent
short of being a complete deterrent I would reject it For what
about the case of the innocent executed
And even if we could eliminate this possibility I would reject the
death penalty as immoral This makes me something of a radical on
the issue although I think there are many opponents of captial
punishment who agree with me but who find the innocent executed the
strongest argument to make
I would if magically placed in charge facilitate stateaided suicide
for criminals who have lifesentences This could be a replacement
for capital punishment Those who dont want to live the rest of
their lives in jail would always have this option
Scott Sauyet ssauyeteaglewesleyanedu
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Introduction to Atheism
Summary: Please read this file before posting to alt.atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Thu, 6 May 1993 12:22:45 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930308134439@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 646
Archive-name: atheism/introduction
Alt-atheism-archive-name: introduction
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
An Introduction to Atheism
by mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
This article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism. Whilst I
have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues, you
should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint. I
would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions; some
relevant books are listed in a companion article.
To provide a sense of cohesion and progression, I have presented this article
as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist. All the
questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped
up repeatedly on alt.atheism since the newsgroup was created. Some other
frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article.
Please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions
posed from a Christian viewpoint. This is because the FAQ files reflect
questions which have actually been asked, and it is predominantly Christians
who proselytize on alt.atheism.
So when I talk of religion, I am talking primarily about religions such as
Christianity, Judaism and Islam, which involve some sort of superhuman divine
being. Much of the discussion will apply to other religions, but some of it
may not.
"What is atheism?"
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is
often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong
atheism".
It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak
atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong
atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".
Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their
atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making
flat-out denials.
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or
not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
"What is agnosticism then?"
The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor Huxley at a meeting of the
Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who
disclaimed ("strong") atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things
must be some cause unknown and unknowable.
Thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for
sure whether God exists.
Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that
you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact
that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people
use agnosticism to mean "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when
referring to "strong atheism".
Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it
is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for
sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't
the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out
about the universe.
"So what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism?"
There are many philosophical justifications for atheism. To find out why a
particular person chooses to be an atheist, it's best to ask her.
Many atheists feel that the idea of God as presented by the major religions
is essentially self-contradictory, and that it is logically impossible that
such a God could exist. Others are atheists through scepticism, because they
see no evidence that God exists.
"But isn't it impossible to prove the non-existence of something?"
There are many counter-examples to such a statement. For example, it is
quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than
all other prime numbers. Of course, this deals with well-defined objects
obeying well-defined rules. Whether Gods or universes are similarly
well-defined is a matter for debate.
However, assuming for the moment that the existence of a God is not provably
impossible, there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non-existence of
God. If we assume that something does not exist, it is always possible to
show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counter-example.
If on the other hand we assume that something does exist, and if the thing in
question is not provably impossible, showing that the assumption is invalid
may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing
might be found, to show that it isn't there. Such an exhaustive search is
often impractical or impossible. There is no such problem with largest
primes, because we can prove that they don't exist.
Therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist
unless we have evidence that they do. Even theists follow this rule most of
the time; they don't believe in unicorns, even though they can't conclusively
prove that no unicorns exist anywhere.
To assume that God exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be
tested. We cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere God might be to
prove that he doesn't exist anywhere. So the sceptical atheist assumes by
default that God does not exist, since that is an assumption we can test.
Those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of God
exists; instead, they generally restrict their claims so as to cover
varieties of God described by followers of various religions. So whilst it
may be impossible to prove conclusively that no God exists, it may be
possible to prove that (say) a God as described by a particular religious
book does not exist. It may even be possible to prove that no God described
by any present-day religion exists.
In practice, believing that no God described by any religion exists is very
close to believing that no God exists. However, it is sufficiently different
that counter-arguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of
God are not really applicable.
"But what if God is essentially non-detectable?"
If God interacts with our universe in any way, the effects of his interaction
must be measurable. Hence his interaction with our universe must be
detectable.
If God is essentially non-detectable, it must therefore be the case that he
does not interact with our universe in any way. Many atheists would argue
that if God does not interact with our universe at all, it is of no
importance whether he exists or not.
If the Bible is to be believed, God was easily detectable by the Israelites.
Surely he should still be detectable today?
Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically
verifiable, physical way. It must surely be possible to perceive some
effect caused by his presence, though; otherwise, how can I distinguish him
from all the other things that don't exist?
"OK, you may think there's a philosophical justification for atheism, but
isn't it still a religious belief?"
One of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is "the
redefinition game". The cynical view of this game is as follows:
Person A begins by making a contentious statement. When person B points out
that it can't be true, person A gradually re-defines the words he used in the
statement until he arrives at something person B is prepared to accept. He
then records the statement, along with the fact that person B has agreed to
it, and continues. Eventually A uses the statement as an "agreed fact", but
uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure
redefinitions originally needed to get B to agree to it. Rather than be seen
to be apparently inconsistent, B will tend to play along.
The point of this digression is that the answer to the question "Isn't
atheism a religious belief?" depends crucially upon what is meant by
"religious". "Religion" is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman
controlling power -- especially in some sort of God -- and by faith and
worship.
[ It's worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not
"religion" according to such a definition. ]
Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power, nor is it
categorized by worship in any meaningful sense. Widening the definition of
"religious" to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of
human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as "religious" as well -- such as
science, politics, and watching TV.
"OK, so it's not a religion. But surely belief in atheism (or science) is
still just an act of faith, like religion is?"
Firstly, it's not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one
actually believes in.
Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to
make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience. Most atheists
try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to
questioning if experience throws them into doubt.
Science has a number of core assumptions. For example, it is generally
assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers. These are
the sort of core assumptions atheists make. If such basic ideas are called
"acts of faith", then almost everything we know must be said to be based on
acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.
Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something.
According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of
faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as
religious followers when claiming that something is "certain". This is not a
general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to
state with certainty that the universe exists.
Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof.
Sceptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as sceptical atheism
has no beliefs. Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as
even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or
the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.
"If atheism is not religious, surely it's anti-religious?"
It is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either "for" or
"against", "friend" or "enemy". The truth is not so clear-cut.
Atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism; in that sense,
it can be said to be "anti-religion". However, when religious believers
speak of atheists being "anti-religious" they usually mean that the atheists
have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists.
This categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair.
Atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum.
Most atheists take a "live and let live" attitude. Unless questioned, they
will not usually mention their atheism, except perhaps to close friends. Of
course, this may be in part because atheism is not "socially acceptable" in
many countries.
A few atheists are quite anti-religious, and may even try to "convert" others
when possible. Historically, such anti-religious atheists have made little
impact on society outside the Eastern Bloc countries.
(To digress slightly: the Soviet Union was originally dedicated to separation
of church and state, just like the USA. Soviet citizens were legally free to
worship as they wished. The institution of "state atheism" came about when
Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and tried to destroy the churches in
order to gain complete power over the population.)
Some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs, but only where they see
religion encroaching on matters which are not its business -- for example,
the government of the USA. Such individuals are usually concerned that
church and state should remain separate.
"But if you don't allow religion to have a say in the running of the state,
surely that's the same as state atheism?"
The principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall
not legislate concerning matters of religious belief. In particular, it
means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of
another, but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in
nature.
Religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters. For
example, religious believers have historically been responsible for
encouraging many political reforms. Even today, many organizations
campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as
religious campaigns. So long as they campaign concerning secular matters,
and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds, most atheists
are quite happy to see them have their say.
"What about prayer in schools? If there's no God, why do you care if people
pray?"
Because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers, and tend to do things
that those who don't pray can't just ignore. Also, Christian prayer in
schools is intimidating to non-Christians, even if they are told that they
need not join in. The diversity of religious and non-religious belief means
that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be
acceptable to all those present at any public event.
Also, non-prayers tend to have friends and family who pray. It is reasonable
to care about friends and family wasting their time, even without other
motives.
"You mentioned Christians who campaign for increased foreign aid. What about
atheists? Why aren't there any atheist charities or hospitals? Don't
atheists object to the religious charities?"
There are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to. Some atheists contribute to religious charities as well, for
the sake of the practical good they do. Some atheists even do voluntary work
for charities founded on a theistic basis.
Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn't worth shouting about in
connection with charity. To them, atheism is just a simple, obvious everyday
matter, and so is charity. Many feel that it's somewhat cheap, not to say
self-righteous, to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set
of religious beliefs.
To "weak" atheists, building a hospital to say "I do not believe in God" is a
rather strange idea; it's rather like holding a party to say "Today is not my
birthday". Why the fuss? Atheism is rarely evangelical.
"You said atheism isn't anti-religious. But is it perhaps a backlash against
one's upbringing, a way of rebelling?"
Perhaps it is, for some. But many people have parents who do not attempt to
force any religious (or atheist) ideas upon them, and many of those people
choose to call themselves atheists.
It's also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a
backlash against an atheist upbringing, as a way of being different. On the
other hand, many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the
expectations of others.
On the whole, we can't conclude much about whether atheism or religion are
backlash or conformism; although in general, people have a tendency to go
along with a group rather than act or think independently.
"How do atheists differ from religious people?"
They don't believe in God. That's all there is to it.
Atheists may listen to heavy metal -- backwards, even -- or they may prefer a
Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words. They may wear Hawaiian shirts,
they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes. (Many
Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.) Some atheists even carry a copy
of the Bible around -- for arguing against, of course!
Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without
realising it. Atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and
appearance.
"Unexceptional? But aren't atheists less moral than religious people?"
That depends. If you define morality as obedience to God, then of course
atheists are less moral as they don't obey any God. But usually when one
talks of morality, one talks of what is acceptable ("right") and unacceptable
("wrong") behaviour within society.
Humans are social animals, and to be maximally successful they must
co-operate with each other. This is a good enough reason to discourage most
atheists from "anti-social" or "immoral" behaviour, purely for the purposes
of self-preservation.
Many atheists behave in a "moral" or "compassionate" way simply because they
feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans. So why do they care
what happens to others? They don't know, they simply are that way.
Naturally, there are some people who behave "immorally" and try to use
atheism to justify their actions. However, there are equally many people who
behave "immorally" and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their
actions. For example:
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ
came into the world to save sinners... But for that very reason, I was
shown mercy so that in me... Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
eternal life. Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God,
be honor and glory forever and ever."
The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer, the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee,
Wisconsin. It seems that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a
religious mass-murderer. But what of more trivial morality?
A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
deteriorated after "born again" experiences. While only 4% of respondents
said they had driven intoxicated before being "born again," 12% had done
so after conversion. Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before
conversion, 9% after. Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
before salvation; 5% after.
["Freethought Today", September 1991, p. 12.]
So it seems that at best, religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour.
"Is there such a thing as atheist morality?"
If you mean "Is there such a thing as morality for atheists?", then the
answer is yes, as explained above. Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people.
If you mean "Does atheism have a characteristic moral code?", then the answer
is no. Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave. Most atheists follow many of the same "moral rules" as theists,
but for different reasons. Atheists view morality as something created by
humans, according to the way humans feel the world 'ought' to work, rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being.
"Then aren't atheists just theists who are denying God?"
A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90% of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them. They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them.
Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial; they are
unbelievers through choice. The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions, sometimes in very great depth. They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs.
This decision may, of course, be an inevitable consequence of that
individual's personality. For a naturally sceptical person, the choice
of atheism is often the only one that makes sense, and hence the only
choice that person can honestly make.
"But don't atheists want to believe in God?"
Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them. Many
of them have no desire to be watched over, no matter how good-natured the
"Big Brother" figure might be.
Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God -- but so what? Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true? The risks of
such an approach should be obvious. Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough; there must be evidence for the belief.
"But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God -- they are
unwilling in their souls to see!"
Many, if not most atheists were previously religious. As has been explained
above, the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists. Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God.
Of course, it is true that some atheists lack an open mind; but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed-minded.
Comments such as "Of course God is there, you just aren't looking properly"
are likely to be viewed as patronizing.
Certainly, if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God. If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth, debate is
futile.
"Isn't the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist?"
Many atheists live a purposeful life. They decide what they think gives
meaning to life, and they pursue those goals. They try to make their lives
count, not by wishing for eternal life, but by having an influence on other
people who will live on. For example, an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform, in the hope of leaving his mark on history.
It is a natural human tendency to look for "meaning" or "purpose" in random
events. However, it is by no means obvious that "life" is the sort of thing
that has a "meaning".
To put it another way, not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask. Some atheists believe that asking "What is the
meaning of life?" is as silly as asking "What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee?". They believe that life has no purpose or meaning, it just is.
"So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger?"
There are many ways of obtaining comfort; from family, friends, or even pets.
Or on a less spiritual level, from food or drink or TV.
That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger, but so
what? Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting, or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be?
In the end, it's a decision for the individual concerned. Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable. They put truth before comfort, and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy, that's just
hard luck.
"Don't atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"
The short answer is "No, do you?"
Many atheists have been atheists for years. They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God, but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive.
Thousands of years of religious belief haven't resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God. Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future, and they stop worrying about it.
"So why should theists question their beliefs? Don't the same arguments
apply?"
No, because the beliefs being questioned are not similar. Weak atheism is
the sceptical "default position" to take; it asserts nothing. Strong atheism
is a negative belief. Theism is a very strong positive belief.
Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause -- not just to the believers,
but to everyone else.
"What sort of harm?"
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings;
think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on.
Imagine how that effort could be better spent.
Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.
It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and
condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.
Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion.
"Those weren't REAL believers. They just claimed to be believers as some
sort of excuse."
What makes a real believer? There are so many One True Religions it's hard
to tell. Look at Christianity: there are many competing groups, all
convinced that they are the only true Christians. Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other. How is an atheist supposed to decide who's a REAL
Christian and who isn't, when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England can't decide amongst themselves?
In the end, most atheists take a pragmatic view, and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian, and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions, should be considered a Christian. Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends -- but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support un-Christian acts it can't be
much of a moral code? If the Bible is the word of God, why couldn't he have
made it less easy to misinterpret? And how do you know that your beliefs
aren't a perversion of what your God intended?
If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible, then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say-so?
Sorry, but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so, we must call him a
Christian.
"Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned. But since
nobody has ever proved that God does not exist, it must be very unlikely
that more basic religious beliefs, shared by all faiths, are nonsense."
That does not hold, because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue,
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones. Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
don't exist, but that doesn't make it unlikely that they are myths.
It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default. Of course, "weak" atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still.
"Well, if atheism's so great, why are there so many theists?"
Unfortunately, the popularity of a belief has little to do with how "correct"
it is, or whether it "works"; consider how many people believe in astrology,
graphology, and other pseudo-sciences.
Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods. Certainly in many primitive human societies, religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand.
Of course, there's more to religion than that. In the industrialized world,
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations. Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world, but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well.
"But so many cultures have developed religions. Surely that must say
something?"
Not really. Most religions are only superficially similar; for example, it's
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense.
Of course, most religions are quick to denounce competing religions, so it's
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another.
"What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
that God exists?"
For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one who
does not. Besides, as has already been pointed out, the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it. Also, it is important to
realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders.
A famous scientist is only human; she may be an expert in some fields, but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight. Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise.
"So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
nothing?"
Not entirely. It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far.
The theory of memetics talks of "memes" -- sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds, by analogy with genes. Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes, which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others. Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine, or by using peer pressure
to keep one-time believers from admitting that they were mistaken. Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes.
Of course, in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme. Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it, any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it.
"Even if religion is not entirely true, at least it puts across important
messages. What are the fundamental messages of atheism?"
There are many important ideas atheists promote. The following are just a
few of them; don't be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions.
There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules.
Be especially sceptical of positive claims.
If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to
find it.
Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.
Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.
It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change
yourself.
Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.
If you must assume something, assume something it's easy to test.
Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.
and finally (and most importantly):
All beliefs should be open to question.
Thanks for taking the time to read this article.
mathew
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after prepro From mathew
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Introduction to Atheism
Summary Please read this file before posting to altatheism
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Thu 6 May 1993 122245 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930308134439mantiscouk
Lines 646
Archivename atheismintroduction
Altatheismarchivename introduction
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 12
BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE
An Introduction to Atheism
by mathew
This article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism Whilst I
have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues you
should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint I
would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions some
relevant books are listed in a companion article
To provide a sense of cohesion and progression I have presented this article
as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist All the
questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped
up repeatedly on altatheism since the newsgroup was created Some other
frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article
Please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions
posed from a Christian viewpoint This is because the FAQ files reflect
questions which have actually been asked and it is predominantly Christians
who proselytize on altatheism
So when I talk of religion I am talking primarily about religions such as
Christianity Judaism and Islam which involve some sort of superhuman divine
being Much of the discussion will apply to other religions but some of it
may not
What is atheism
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God
Some atheists go further and believe that God does not exist The former is
often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong
atheism
It is important to note the difference between these two positions Weak
atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of God Strong
atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist Please do not
fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists
Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods others limit their
atheism to specific Gods such as the Christian God rather than making
flatout denials
But isnt disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesnt exist
Definitely not Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false one may simply have no idea whether it is true or
not Which brings us to agnosticism
What is agnosticism then
The term agnosticism was coined by Professor Huxley at a meeting of the
Metaphysical Society in 1876 He defined an agnostic as someone who
disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things
must be some cause unknown and unknowable
Thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for
sure whether God exists
Words are slippery things and language is inexact Beware of assuming that
you can work out someones philosophical point of view simply from the fact
that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic For example many people
use agnosticism to mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when
referring to strong atheism
Beware also that because the word atheist has so many shades of meaning it
is very difficult to generalize about atheists About all you can say for
sure is that atheists dont believe in God For example it certainly isnt
the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out
about the universe
So what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism
There are many philosophical justifications for atheism To find out why a
particular person chooses to be an atheist its best to ask her
Many atheists feel that the idea of God as presented by the major religions
is essentially selfcontradictory and that it is logically impossible that
such a God could exist Others are atheists through scepticism because they
see no evidence that God exists
But isnt it impossible to prove the nonexistence of something
There are many counterexamples to such a statement For example it is
quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than
all other prime numbers Of course this deals with welldefined objects
obeying welldefined rules Whether Gods or universes are similarly
welldefined is a matter for debate
However assuming for the moment that the existence of a God is not provably
impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the nonexistence of
God If we assume that something does not exist it is always possible to
show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counterexample
If on the other hand we assume that something does exist and if the thing in
question is not provably impossible showing that the assumption is invalid
may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing
might be found to show that it isnt there Such an exhaustive search is
often impractical or impossible There is no such problem with largest
primes because we can prove that they dont exist
Therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist
unless we have evidence that they do Even theists follow this rule most of
the time they dont believe in unicorns even though they cant conclusively
prove that no unicorns exist anywhere
To assume that God exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be
tested We cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere God might be to
prove that he doesnt exist anywhere So the sceptical atheist assumes by
default that God does not exist since that is an assumption we can test
Those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of God
exists instead they generally restrict their claims so as to cover
varieties of God described by followers of various religions So whilst it
may be impossible to prove conclusively that no God exists it may be
possible to prove that say a God as described by a particular religious
book does not exist It may even be possible to prove that no God described
by any presentday religion exists
In practice believing that no God described by any religion exists is very
close to believing that no God exists However it is sufficiently different
that counterarguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of
God are not really applicable
But what if God is essentially nondetectable
If God interacts with our universe in any way the effects of his interaction
must be measurable Hence his interaction with our universe must be
detectable
If God is essentially nondetectable it must therefore be the case that he
does not interact with our universe in any way Many atheists would argue
that if God does not interact with our universe at all it is of no
importance whether he exists or not
If the Bible is to be believed God was easily detectable by the Israelites
Surely he should still be detectable today
Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically
verifiable physical way It must surely be possible to perceive some
effect caused by his presence though otherwise how can I distinguish him
from all the other things that dont exist
OK you may think theres a philosophical justification for atheism but
isnt it still a religious belief
One of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is the
redefinition game The cynical view of this game is as follows
Person A begins by making a contentious statement When person B points out
that it cant be true person A gradually redefines the words he used in the
statement until he arrives at something person B is prepared to accept He
then records the statement along with the fact that person B has agreed to
it and continues Eventually A uses the statement as an agreed fact but
uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure
redefinitions originally needed to get B to agree to it Rather than be seen
to be apparently inconsistent B will tend to play along
The point of this digression is that the answer to the question Isnt
atheism a religious belief depends crucially upon what is meant by
religious Religion is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman
controlling power especially in some sort of God and by faith and
worship
[ Its worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of Buddhism are not
religion according to such a definition ]
Atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power nor is it
categorized by worship in any meaningful sense Widening the definition of
religious to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of
human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as religious as well such as
science politics and watching TV
OK so its not a religion But surely belief in atheism or science is
still just an act of faith like religion is
Firstly its not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one
actually believes in
Secondly it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to
make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience Most atheists
try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible and even those are subject to
questioning if experience throws them into doubt
Science has a number of core assumptions For example it is generally
assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers These are
the sort of core assumptions atheists make If such basic ideas are called
acts of faith then almost everything we know must be said to be based on
acts of faith and the term loses its meaning
Faith is more often used to refer to complete certain belief in something
According to such a definition atheism and science are certainly not acts of
faith Of course individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as
religious followers when claiming that something is certain This is not a
general tendency however there are many atheists who would be reluctant to
state with certainty that the universe exists
Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof
Sceptical atheism certainly doesnt fit that definition as sceptical atheism
has no beliefs Strong atheism is closer but still doesnt really match as
even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data or
the lack of it when asserting that God does not exist
If atheism is not religious surely its antireligious
It is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either for or
against friend or enemy The truth is not so clearcut
Atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism in that sense
it can be said to be antireligion However when religious believers
speak of atheists being antireligious they usually mean that the atheists
have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists
This categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair
Atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum
Most atheists take a live and let live attitude Unless questioned they
will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps to close friends Of
course this may be in part because atheism is not socially acceptable in
many countries
A few atheists are quite antireligious and may even try to convert others
when possible Historically such antireligious atheists have made little
impact on society outside the Eastern Bloc countries
To digress slightly the Soviet Union was originally dedicated to separation
of church and state just like the USA Soviet citizens were legally free to
worship as they wished The institution of state atheism came about when
Stalin took control of the Soviet Union and tried to destroy the churches in
order to gain complete power over the population
Some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see
religion encroaching on matters which are not its business for example
the government of the USA Such individuals are usually concerned that
church and state should remain separate
But if you dont allow religion to have a say in the running of the state
surely thats the same as state atheism
The principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall
not legislate concerning matters of religious belief In particular it
means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of
another but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in
nature
Religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters For
example religious believers have historically been responsible for
encouraging many political reforms Even today many organizations
campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as
religious campaigns So long as they campaign concerning secular matters
and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds most atheists
are quite happy to see them have their say
What about prayer in schools If theres no God why do you care if people
pray
Because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers and tend to do things
that those who dont pray cant just ignore Also Christian prayer in
schools is intimidating to nonChristians even if they are told that they
need not join in The diversity of religious and nonreligious belief means
that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be
acceptable to all those present at any public event
Also nonprayers tend to have friends and family who pray It is reasonable
to care about friends and family wasting their time even without other
motives
You mentioned Christians who campaign for increased foreign aid What about
atheists Why arent there any atheist charities or hospitals Dont
atheists object to the religious charities
There are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to Some atheists contribute to religious charities as well for
the sake of the practical good they do Some atheists even do voluntary work
for charities founded on a theistic basis
Most atheists seem to feel that atheism isnt worth shouting about in
connection with charity To them atheism is just a simple obvious everyday
matter and so is charity Many feel that its somewhat cheap not to say
selfrighteous to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set
of religious beliefs
To weak atheists building a hospital to say I do not believe in God is a
rather strange idea its rather like holding a party to say Today is not my
birthday Why the fuss Atheism is rarely evangelical
You said atheism isnt antireligious But is it perhaps a backlash against
ones upbringing a way of rebelling
Perhaps it is for some But many people have parents who do not attempt to
force any religious or atheist ideas upon them and many of those people
choose to call themselves atheists
Its also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a
backlash against an atheist upbringing as a way of being different On the
other hand many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the
expectations of others
On the whole we cant conclude much about whether atheism or religion are
backlash or conformism although in general people have a tendency to go
along with a group rather than act or think independently
How do atheists differ from religious people
They dont believe in God Thats all there is to it
Atheists may listen to heavy metal backwards even or they may prefer a
Verdi Requiem even if they know the words They may wear Hawaiian shirts
they may dress all in black they may even wear orange robes Many
Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God Some atheists even carry a copy
of the Bible around for arguing against of course
Whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without
realising it Atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and
appearance
Unexceptional But arent atheists less moral than religious people
That depends If you define morality as obedience to God then of course
atheists are less moral as they dont obey any God But usually when one
talks of morality one talks of what is acceptable right and unacceptable
wrong behaviour within society
Humans are social animals and to be maximally successful they must
cooperate with each other This is a good enough reason to discourage most
atheists from antisocial or immoral behaviour purely for the purposes
of selfpreservation
Many atheists behave in a moral or compassionate way simply because they
feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans So why do they care
what happens to others They dont know they simply are that way
Naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try to use
atheism to justify their actions However there are equally many people who
behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their
actions For example
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance Jesus Christ
came into the world to save sinners But for that very reason I was
shown mercy so that in me Jesus Christ might display His unlimited
patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive
eternal life Now to the king eternal immortal invisible the only God
be honor and glory forever and ever
The above quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992
by Jeffrey Dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee
Wisconsin It seems that for every atheist massmurderer there is a
religious massmurderer But what of more trivial morality
A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior
deteriorated after born again experiences While only 4 of respondents
said they had driven intoxicated before being born again 12 had done
so after conversion Similarly 5 had used illegal drugs before
conversion 9 after Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex
before salvation 5 after
[Freethought Today September 1991 p 12]
So it seems that at best religion does not have a monopoly on moral
behaviour
Is there such a thing as atheist morality
If you mean Is there such a thing as morality for atheists then the
answer is yes as explained above Many atheists have ideas about morality
which are at least as strong as those held by religious people
If you mean Does atheism have a characteristic moral code then the answer
is no Atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person
will behave Most atheists follow many of the same moral rules as theists
but for different reasons Atheists view morality as something created by
humans according to the way humans feel the world ought to work rather
than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being
Then arent atheists just theists who are denying God
A study by the Freedom From Religion Foundation found that over 90 of the
atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for
them They had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible
with what they observed around them
Atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial they are
unbelievers through choice The vast majority of them have spent time
studying one or more religions sometimes in very great depth They have
made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs
This decision may of course be an inevitable consequence of that
individuals personality For a naturally sceptical person the choice
of atheism is often the only one that makes sense and hence the only
choice that person can honestly make
But dont atheists want to believe in God
Atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them Many
of them have no desire to be watched over no matter how goodnatured the
Big Brother figure might be
Some atheists would like to be able to believe in God but so what Should
one believe things merely because one wants them to be true The risks of
such an approach should be obvious Atheists often decide that wanting to
believe something is not enough there must be evidence for the belief
But of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of God they are
unwilling in their souls to see
Many if not most atheists were previously religious As has been explained
above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that God
exists Many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach God
Of course it is true that some atheists lack an open mind but assuming that
all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closedminded
Comments such as Of course God is there you just arent looking properly
are likely to be viewed as patronizing
Certainly if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is
vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are
being sincere if they say that they have searched for God If you are not
willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth debate is
futile
Isnt the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist
Many atheists live a purposeful life They decide what they think gives
meaning to life and they pursue those goals They try to make their lives
count not by wishing for eternal life but by having an influence on other
people who will live on For example an atheist may dedicate his life to
political reform in the hope of leaving his mark on history
It is a natural human tendency to look for meaning or purpose in random
events However it is by no means obvious that life is the sort of thing
that has a meaning
To put it another way not everything which looks like a question is actually
a sensible thing to ask Some atheists believe that asking What is the
meaning of life is as silly as asking What is the meaning of a cup of
coffee They believe that life has no purpose or meaning it just is
So how do atheists find comfort in time of danger
There are many ways of obtaining comfort from family friends or even pets
Or on a less spiritual level from food or drink or TV
That may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger but so
what Should individuals believe in things because they are comforting or
should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be
In the end its a decision for the individual concerned Most atheists are
unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because
it makes them feel comfortable They put truth before comfort and consider
that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy thats just
hard luck
Dont atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong
The short answer is No do you
Many atheists have been atheists for years They have encountered many
arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of God but they have
found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive
Thousands of years of religious belief havent resulted in any good proof of
the existence of God Atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely
to be proved wrong in the immediate future and they stop worrying about it
So why should theists question their beliefs Dont the same arguments
apply
No because the beliefs being questioned are not similar Weak atheism is
the sceptical default position to take it asserts nothing Strong atheism
is a negative belief Theism is a very strong positive belief
Atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs
because of the very real harm they can cause not just to the believers
but to everyone else
What sort of harm
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind Its not
just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings
think of all the time and effort spent building churches praying and so on
Imagine how that effort could be better spent
Many theists believe in miracle healing There have been plenty of instances
of ill people being healed by a priest ceasing to take the medicines
prescribed to them by doctors and dying as a result Some theists have died
because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds
It is arguable that the Catholic Churchs opposition to birth control and
condoms in particular is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many
thirdworld countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS worldwide
Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than
allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different
religion
Those werent REAL believers They just claimed to be believers as some
sort of excuse
What makes a real believer There are so many One True Religions its hard
to tell Look at Christianity there are many competing groups all
convinced that they are the only true Christians Sometimes they even fight
and kill each other How is an atheist supposed to decide whos a REAL
Christian and who isnt when even the major Christian churches like the
Catholic Church and the Church of England cant decide amongst themselves
In the end most atheists take a pragmatic view and decide that anyone who
calls himself a Christian and uses Christian belief or dogma to justify his
actions should be considered a Christian Maybe some of those Christians
are just perverting Christian teaching for their own ends but surely if
the Bible can be so readily used to support unChristian acts it cant be
much of a moral code If the Bible is the word of God why couldnt he have
made it less easy to misinterpret And how do you know that your beliefs
arent a perversion of what your God intended
If there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the Bible then why
should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your sayso
Sorry but if someone claims that he believes in Jesus and that he murdered
others because Jesus and the Bible told him to do so we must call him a
Christian
Obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned But since
nobody has ever proved that God does not exist it must be very unlikely
that more basic religious beliefs shared by all faiths are nonsense
That does not hold because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue
positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much
harder to disprove than negative ones Nobody has ever proved that unicorns
dont exist but that doesnt make it unlikely that they are myths
It is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than
it is to hold a positive assertion by default Of course weak atheists
would argue that asserting nothing is better still
Well if atheisms so great why are there so many theists
Unfortunately the popularity of a belief has little to do with how correct
it is or whether it works consider how many people believe in astrology
graphology and other pseudosciences
Many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in
gods Certainly in many primitive human societies religion allows the
people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand
Of course theres more to religion than that In the industrialized world
we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when
there are perfectly adequate natural explanations Religion may have started
as a means of attempting to explain the world but nowadays it serves other
purposes as well
But so many cultures have developed religions Surely that must say
something
Not really Most religions are only superficially similar for example its
worth remembering that religions such as Buddhism and Taoism lack any sort of
concept of God in the Christian sense
Of course most religions are quick to denounce competing religions so its
rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another
What about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded
that God exists
For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god there is one who
does not Besides as has already been pointed out the truth of a belief is
not determined by how many people believe it Also it is important to
realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the
same way that theists view their religious leaders
A famous scientist is only human she may be an expert in some fields but
when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight Many
respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on
subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise
So are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates
nothing
Not entirely It certainly indicates that the religion in question has
properties which have helped it so spread so far
The theory of memetics talks of memes sets of ideas which can propagate
themselves between human minds by analogy with genes Some atheists view
religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes which spread by
encouraging their hosts to convert others Some memes avoid destruction by
discouraging believers from questioning doctrine or by using peer pressure
to keep onetime believers from admitting that they were mistaken Some
religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by
other memes
Of course in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with
successful propagation of a meme Religion is not a good thing because of
the number of people who believe it any more than a disease is a good thing
because of the number of people who have caught it
Even if religion is not entirely true at least it puts across important
messages What are the fundamental messages of atheism
There are many important ideas atheists promote The following are just a
few of them dont be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some
religions
There is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules
Be especially sceptical of positive claims
If you want your life to have some sort of meaning its up to you to
find it
Search for what is true even if it makes you uncomfortable
Make the most of your life as its probably the only one youll have
Its no good relying on some external power to change you you must change
yourself
Just because somethings popular doesnt mean its good
If you must assume something assume something its easy to test
Dont believe things just because you want them to be true
and finally and most importantly
All beliefs should be open to question
Thanks for taking the time to read this article
mathew
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preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 35
In article <1993Apr14.231654.14060@stsci.edu> rdouglas@stsci.edu (Rob Douglas) writes:
>This question is probably mostly for Allen Sherzer, but anyone who KNOWS
>would be welcome to answer. I was just wondering if we could have some kind
>of update on DC-X.
Well it rolled out two weeks ago. As we speak it is at White Sands getting
ready. I would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out
of town (in NM).
As for the future, there is at least $5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT. They (SDIO) have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some. However, SDIO is not (I repeat, is not) going to fund an orbital
prototype. The best we can hope from them is to 1) keep it alive for
another year, and 2) fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT (with
major modifications) just make orbit. There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions.
Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort. The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about $50M next
year for studies. This would be enough to bring DC-Y to PDR.
Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC.
Public support is STILL critical. Meet with your Congressperson (I'll
help you do it) and get his/her support. Also call your local media
ans get them to cover the flight tests.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------62 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 35
In article 1993Apr1423165414060stsciedu rdouglasstsciedu Rob Douglas writes
This question is probably mostly for Allen Sherzer but anyone who KNOWS
would be welcome to answer I was just wondering if we could have some kind
of update on DCX
Well it rolled out two weeks ago As we speak it is at White Sands getting
ready I would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out
of town in NM
As for the future there is at least 5M in next years budget for work
on SSRT They SDIO have been looking for more funds and do seem to have
some However SDIO is not I repeat is not going to fund an orbital
prototype The best we can hope from them is to 1 keep it alive for
another year and 2 fund a suborbital vehicle which MIGHT with
major modifications just make orbit There is also some money for a
set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions
Better news comes from the new Spacelifter effort The USAF managers of
this program are very open to SSTO and will have about 50M next
year for studies This would be enough to bring DCY to PDR
Now not all of this money will go to DC but a good case could be made
for spending half on DC
Public support is STILL critical Meet with your Congressperson Ill
help you do it and get hisher support Also call your local media
ans get them to cover the flight tests
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
62 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Islam And Scientific Predictions (was Re: Genocide is Caused by Atheism)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 60
In <CINDY.93Apr18124333@solan10.solan.unit.no> cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf) writes:
>Various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of
>bandwidth, but i will copy the Koran quote:
>>>>"AND IT IS HE (GOD ALMIGHTY) WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
>>>>DAY, AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH: ALL (THE CELETIAL BODIES)
>>>>SWIM ALONG, EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE." (Holy Quran 21:33)
>As it has been pointed out, this quote makes no claim about what
>orbits what. The idea that something orbited something had been held
>as true for many years before the Koran was written, so the fact that
>it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight. My
>concern is with the word "rounded".
>There are two interpretations of this word:
>1. It means in a circle. This is wrong, although many believed it to
>be true at the time the Koran was written. In other words, it is not
>describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists, but
>as it was thought to be at the time. This has implications which i
>hope are obvious to everyone.
>2. It means "in a rounded shape", which could include elipses (the
>geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the
>planets). This is also not a great insight. Look at the shapes you
>see in nature. Very few of them even approach a square or rectangle;
>those are human-created shapes. Everything in nature is rounded to
>some degree. Even the flat-earthers don't try to claim Earth is a
>rectangle. Children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them
>rectangular bodies. We seem to instinctively recognize that nature
>produces rounded shapes; hence, the assumption that the orbits of the
>planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration.
It is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an
interpretation, so (as you point out below) one must really go back to
the original Arabic. Regarding the verses relevant to nature, I prefer
to use Dr. Maurice Bucaille's translations (in his book, "The Bible, the
Qur'an and Science") for in general his translations are more literal.
Maurice Bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing
as
"...Each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion."
(Also note that "the celestial bodies" in the first translation quoted
by you above is the translator's interpolation -- it is not existent in
the original Arabic, which is why it is included in brackets.)
>Perhaps someone who can read the original Arabic can eliminate one of
>these interpretations; at any rate, neither one of them is exactly
>impressive.
You're right, what the verses _do_ contain isn't all that remarkable.
However, Dr. Bucaille (a surgeon, that's how he's a "Dr.") thinks it is
significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas, even
though geocentrism was all the rage up until the 17th century (?) or so.
(And this goes for the rest of the Qur'an as well, which has about 750
verses or so regarding nature, I think I remember reading once.)
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Islam And Scientific Predictions was Re Genocide is Caused by Atheism
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 60
In cindysolan10solanunitno Cynthia Kandolf writes
Various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of
bandwidth but i will copy the Koran quote
AND IT IS HE GOD ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE
DAY AND THE SUN AND THE EARTH ALL THE CELETIAL BODIES
SWIM ALONG EACH IN ITS ROUNDED COURSE Holy Quran 2133
As it has been pointed out this quote makes no claim about what
orbits what The idea that something orbited something had been held
as true for many years before the Koran was written so the fact that
it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight My
concern is with the word rounded
There are two interpretations of this word
1 It means in a circle This is wrong although many believed it to
be true at the time the Koran was written In other words it is not
describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists but
as it was thought to be at the time This has implications which i
hope are obvious to everyone
2 It means in a rounded shape which could include elipses the
geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the
planets This is also not a great insight Look at the shapes you
see in nature Very few of them even approach a square or rectangle
those are humancreated shapes Everything in nature is rounded to
some degree Even the flatearthers dont try to claim Earth is a
rectangle Children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them
rectangular bodies We seem to instinctively recognize that nature
produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits of the
planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration
It is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an
interpretation so as you point out below one must really go back to
the original Arabic Regarding the verses relevant to nature I prefer
to use Dr Maurice Bucailles translations in his book The Bible the
Quran and Science for in general his translations are more literal
Maurice Bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing
as
Each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion
Also note that the celestial bodies in the first translation quoted
by you above is the translators interpolation it is not existent in
the original Arabic which is why it is included in brackets
Perhaps someone who can read the original Arabic can eliminate one of
these interpretations at any rate neither one of them is exactly
impressive
Youre right what the verses _do_ contain isnt all that remarkable
However Dr Bucaille a surgeon thats how hes a Dr thinks it is
significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas even
though geocentrism was all the rage up until the 17th century or so
And this goes for the rest of the Quran as well which has about 750
verses or so regarding nature I think I remember reading once
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: free moral agency
Lines: 34
Organization: Walla Walla College
Distribution: na
Lines: 34
In article <11810@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
>Subject: Re: free moral agency
>Date: 14 Apr 93 21:41:31 GMT
>In article <healta.133.734810202@saturn.wwc.edu> healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>>
>>In the Old testement, Satan is RARELY mentioned, if at all.
>
>
> Huh? Doesn't the SDA Bible contain the book of Job?
>
>>This is why there is suffering in the world, we are caught inthe crossfire.
>>and sometimes, innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt.
>>That's my opinion and I hope I cleared up a few things.
>>
>
> Seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has "got some
> 'splainin' to do" then. Or did he just create Satan for shits and
> giggles?
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't say it NEVER mentioned Satan, I said it RARELY, if at all. Please
excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence.
Tammy
P.S I'm soory if I sound cranky. I apoplogize now before anyone's feelings
get hurt.
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re free moral agency
Lines 34
Organization Walla Walla College
Distribution na
Lines 34
In article 11810viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re free moral agency
Date 14 Apr 93 214131 GMT
In article healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
In the Old testement Satan is RARELY mentioned if at all
Huh Doesnt the SDA Bible contain the book of Job
This is why there is suffering in the world we are caught inthe crossfire
and sometimes innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt
Thats my opinion and I hope I cleared up a few things
Seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some
splainin to do then Or did he just create Satan for shits and
giggles
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didnt say it NEVER mentioned Satan I said it RARELY if at all Please
excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence
Tammy
PS Im soory if I sound cranky I apoplogize now before anyones feelings
get hurt
preprocess doc From: chico@ccsun.unicamp.br (Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues)
Subject: New planet/Kuiper object found?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 28
Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object,
beyond Pluto's orbit, was found by an observatory at Hawaii. They
named the object Karla.
The program said the object wasn't a gaseous giant planet, and
should be composed by rocks and ices.
Can someone confirm these information? Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object?
Thanks in advance.
Francisco.
-----------------------=====================================----the stars,----
| ._, | Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues | o o |
| ,_| |._/\ | | o o |
| | |o/^^~-._ | COTUCA-Colegio Tecnico da UNICAMP | o |
|/-' BRASIL | ~| | o o o |
|\__/|_ /' | Depto de Processamento de Dados | o o o o |
| \__ Cps | . | | o o o o |
| | * __/' | InterNet : chico@ccsun.unicamp.br | o o o |
| > /' | cotuca@ccvax.unicamp.br| o |
| /' /' | Fone/Fax : 55-0192-32-9519 | o o |
| ~~^\/' | Campinas - SP - Brasil | o o |
-----------------------=====================================----like dust.----
after prepro From chicoccsununicampbr Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues
Subject New planetKuiper object found
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 28
Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object
beyond Plutos orbit was found by an observatory at Hawaii They
named the object Karla
The program said the object wasnt a gaseous giant planet and
should be composed by rocks and ices
Can someone confirm these information Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object
Thanks in advance
Francisco
the stars
_ Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues o o
_ _\ o o
o^^_ COTUCAColegio Tecnico da UNICAMP o
BRASIL o o o
\___ Depto de Processamento de Dados o o o o
\__ Cps o o o o
__ InterNet chicoccsununicampbr o o o
cotucaccvaxunicampbr o
FoneFax 550192329519 o o
^\ Campinas SP Brasil o o
like dust
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 35
In article <1rd1g0$ckb@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
>How will said re-boost be done?
>Grapple, HST, stow it in Cargo bay, do OMS burn to high altitude,
>unstow HST, repair gyros, costar install, fix solar arrays,
>then return to earth?
Actually, the reboost will probably be done last, so that there is a fuel
reserve during the EVAs (in case they have to chase down an adrift
astronaut or something like that). But yes, you've got the idea -- the
reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up.
>My guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost?
>why not grapple, do all said fixes, bolt a small liquid fueled
>thruster module to HST, then let it make the re-boost...
Somebody has to build that thruster module; it's not an off-the-shelf
item. Nor is it a trivial piece of hardware, since it has to include
attitude control (HST's own is not strong enough to compensate for things
like thruster imbalance), guidance (there is no provision to feed gyro
data from HST's own gyros to an external device), and separation (you
don't want it left attached afterward, if only to avoid possible
contamination after the telescope lid is opened again). You also get
to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is
done and HST is inaccessible to the shuttle (the lid stays closed for
the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from
thrusters and the like).
The original plan was to use the Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle to do the
reboost. The OMV was planned to be a sort of small space tug, well
suited to precisely this sort of job. Unfortunately, it was costing
a lot to develop and the list of definitely-known applications was
relatively short, so it got cancelled.
--
SVR4 resembles a high-speed collision | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS. - Dick Dunn | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re HST Servicing Mission Scheduled for 11 Days
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 35
In article 1rd1g0ckbaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
How will said reboost be done
Grapple HST stow it in Cargo bay do OMS burn to high altitude
unstow HST repair gyros costar install fix solar arrays
then return to earth
Actually the reboost will probably be done last so that there is a fuel
reserve during the EVAs in case they have to chase down an adrift
astronaut or something like that But yes youve got the idea the
reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up
My guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost
why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled
thruster module to HST then let it make the reboost
Somebody has to build that thruster module its not an offtheshelf
item Nor is it a trivial piece of hardware since it has to include
attitude control HSTs own is not strong enough to compensate for things
like thruster imbalance guidance there is no provision to feed gyro
data from HSTs own gyros to an external device and separation you
dont want it left attached afterward if only to avoid possible
contamination after the telescope lid is opened again You also get
to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is
done and HST is inaccessible to the shuttle the lid stays closed for
the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from
thrusters and the like
The original plan was to use the Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle to do the
reboost The OMV was planned to be a sort of small space tug well
suited to precisely this sort of job Unfortunately it was costing
a lot to develop and the list of definitelyknown applications was
relatively short so it got cancelled
SVR4 resembles a highspeed collision Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
between SVR3 and SunOS Dick Dunn henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <SHAFER.93Apr6094402@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:
>Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s. No
>mechnaical or analog backup, to show you how confident we were.
Confident, or merely crazed? That desert sun :-)
>successful we were. (Mind you, the Avro Arrow and the X-15 were both
>fly-by-wire aircraft much earlier, but analog.)
>
Gee, I thought the X-15 was Cable controlled. Didn't one of them have a
total electrical failure in flight? Was there machanical backup systems?
|
|The NASA habit of acquiring second-hand military aircraft and using
|them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing. On the other
|hand, all those second-hand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
|to fold the wings--something most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
|can't do.
|
What do you mean? Overstress the wings, and they fail at teh joints?
You'll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article shaferrigeldfrfnasagov Mary Shafer writes
Dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the 70s No
mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were
Confident or merely crazed That desert sun
successful we were Mind you the Avro Arrow and the X15 were both
flybywire aircraft much earlier but analog
Gee I thought the X15 was Cable controlled Didnt one of them have a
total electrical failure in flight Was there machanical backup systems
The NASA habit of acquiring secondhand military aircraft and using
them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing On the other
hand all those secondhand Navy planes give our test pilots a chance
to fold the wingssomething most pilots at Edwards Air Force Base
cant do
What do you mean Overstress the wings and they fail at teh joints
Youll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands
pat
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: <JSN104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL!!!
Lines: 2
YOU BLASHEPHEMERS!!! YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD!!!! BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From
Subject YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL
Lines 2
YOU BLASHEPHEMERS YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD BE
PREPARED FOR YOUR ETERNAL DAMNATION
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Plutonium based Nuclear Power plants.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 13
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Todays New York TImes just wrote about a pact being negotiated
between us and the Russians to develope High Temperature
Gas Cooled Fission Reactors using Re-Cycled Weapons Grade plutonium
from Warhead stockpiles. THe fuel will be pelletized in ceramic
for safety, and then after depletion will be sufficiently
contaminated with by-products to make extraction of the remaining
plutonium hazardous enough to deter re-use.
Apparently the project will be led by General Atomics of San Diego
with funding from the US GOvernment. THe pilot plant will be built
and operated by the russians.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Plutonium based Nuclear Power plants
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 13
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Todays New York TImes just wrote about a pact being negotiated
between us and the Russians to develope High Temperature
Gas Cooled Fission Reactors using ReCycled Weapons Grade plutonium
from Warhead stockpiles THe fuel will be pelletized in ceramic
for safety and then after depletion will be sufficiently
contaminated with byproducts to make extraction of the remaining
plutonium hazardous enough to deter reuse
Apparently the project will be led by General Atomics of San Diego
with funding from the US GOvernment THe pilot plant will be built
and operated by the russians
pat
preprocess doc From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy)
Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
Lines: 38
Organization: Walla Walla College
Lines: 38
In article <1993Apr14.213356.22176@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
>From: snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder )
>Subject: Re: who are we to judge, Bobby?
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 21:33:56 GMT
>In article <healta.56.734556346@saturn.wwc.edu> healta@saturn.wwc.edu (TAMMY R HEALY) writes:
>>Bobby,
>>
>>I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named
>>Ellen G. White. I hope that what she said will help you to edit your
>>remarks in this group in the future.
>>
>>"Do not set yourself as a standard. Do not make your opinions, your views
>>of duty, your interpretations of scripture, a criterion for others and in
>>your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal."
>> Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p. 124
>>
>>I hope quoting this doesn't make the atheists gag, but I think Ellen White
>>put it better than I could.
>>
>>Tammy
>
>Point?
>
>Peace,
>
>Bobby Mozumder
>
My point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe. Saying
that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and
counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups. I see in your posts a
spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don'
t believe exactly as you do. If you're here to try to convert the atheists
here, you're failing miserably. Who wants to be in position of constantly
defending themselves agaist insulting attacks, like you seem to like to do?!
I'm sorry you're so blind that you didn't get the messgae in the quote,
everyone else has seemed to.
Tammy
after prepro From healtasaturnwwcedu Tammy R Healy
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Lines 38
Organization Walla Walla College
Lines 38
In article 1993Apr1421335622176ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
From snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder
Subject Re who are we to judge Bobby
Date Wed 14 Apr 1993 213356 GMT
In article healtasaturnwwcedu TAMMY R HEALY writes
Bobby
I would like to take the liberty to quote from a Christian writer named
Ellen G White I hope that what she said will help you to edit your
remarks in this group in the future
Do not set yourself as a standard Do not make your opinions your views
of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in
your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal
Thoughts Fromthe Mount of Blessing p 124
I hope quoting this doesnt make the atheists gag but I think Ellen White
put it better than I could
Tammy
Point
Peace
Bobby Mozumder
My point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe Saying
that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and
counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups I see in your posts a
spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don
t believe exactly as you do If youre here to try to convert the atheists
here youre failing miserably Who wants to be in position of constantly
defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem to like to do
Im sorry youre so blind that you didnt get the messgae in the quote
everyone else has seemed to
Tammy
preprocess doc Subject: Quotation? Lowest bidder...
From: bioccnt@otago.ac.nz
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand
Nntp-Posting-Host: thorin.otago.ac.nz
Lines: 12
Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation?
He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards, in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about, said (approximately) "half a
million components, each has to work perfectly, each supplied by the lowest
bidder....."
Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated.
Clive Trotman
after prepro Subject Quotation Lowest bidder
From bioccntotagoacnz
Organization University of Otago Dunedin New Zealand
NntpPostingHost thorinotagoacnz
Lines 12
Can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation
He was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to
the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a
million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest
bidder
Attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated
Clive Trotman
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 21
In article <sandvik-140493185248@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
>
>This is the reason I like the controversy of post-modernism, the
>issues of polarities -- evil and good -- are just artificial
>constructs, and they fall apart during a closer inspection.
>
>The more I look into the notion of a constant struggle between
>the evil and good forces, the more it sounds like a metaphor
>that people just assume without closer inspection.
>
More info please. I'm not well exposed to these ideas.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re free moral agency and Jeff Clark
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 21
In article sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik writes
This is the reason I like the controversy of postmodernism the
issues of polarities evil and good are just artificial
constructs and they fall apart during a closer inspection
The more I look into the notion of a constant struggle between
the evil and good forces the more it sounds like a metaphor
that people just assume without closer inspection
More info please Im not well exposed to these ideas
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 11
In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>of the "fasad" ruling.
Please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again.
/---- John David Munch ------------------ jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu ----\
|...." the heart can change, be full of hate, or love. If people are allowed|
|to base their lives through their hearts, anything can happen. A dangerous |
|situation, in my opinion." -Bobby Mozumder describing problems with atheism|
after prepro From jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 11
In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling
Please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again
John David Munch jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu \
the heart can change be full of hate or love If people are allowed
to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen A dangerous
situation in my opinion Bobby Mozumder describing problems with atheism
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 29
In <ednclark.734054731@kraken> ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark) writes:
>cfaehl@vesta.unm.edu (Chris Faehl) writes:
>>Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
>>depression? You can't just pick your two favorite trends, notice a correlation
>>in them, and make a sweeping statement of generality. I mean, you CAN, and
>>people HAVE, but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis.
>>At best it's a gross oversimplification of the push-pull factors people
>>experience.
[...]
>Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
>are far too complicated for us to control. We just have to hold on to the
>panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing. But one
>things for sure, depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
>due solely to sex out of marriage.
Note that I _never_ said that depression and the destruction of the
nuclear family is due _solely_ to extra-marital sex. I specifically
said that it was "a prime cause" of this, not "the prime cause" or "the
only cause" of this -- I recognize that there are probably other factors
too, but I think that extra-marital sex and subsequent destabilization
of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in
psychological problems, including depression, in the West in the 20th
century.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 29
In ednclarkkrakenitcgueduau Jeffrey Clark writes
cfaehlvestaunmedu Chris Faehl writes
Why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards
depression You cant just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation
in them and make a sweeping statement of generality I mean you CAN and
people HAVE but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis
At best its a gross oversimplification of the pushpull factors people
experience
[]
Basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society
are far too complicated for us to control We just have to hold on to the
panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing But one
things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not
due solely to sex out of marriage
Note that I _never_ said that depression and the destruction of the
nuclear family is due _solely_ to extramarital sex I specifically
said that it was a prime cause of this not the prime cause or the
only cause of this I recognize that there are probably other factors
too but I think that extramarital sex and subsequent destabilization
of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in
psychological problems including depression in the West in the 20th
century
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: Wales.Larrison@ofa123.fidonet.org
Subject: Space Advertising (1 of 2)
X-Sender: newtout 0.08 Feb 23 1993
Lines: 81
Brian Yamauchi asks: [Regarding orbital billboards...]
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip? How serious is this project? Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
Well, I had been collecting data for next edition of the
Commercial Space News/Space Technology Investor... To summarize:
SPACE ADVERTISING
First, advertising on space vehicles is not new -- it is very
common practice to put the cooperating organization's logos on the
space launch vehicle. For example, the latest GPS launcher had the
(very prominent) logos on its side of
- McDonnell Douglas (the Delta launcher)
- Rockwell International (who built the GPS satellite)
- USAF (who paid for the satellite and launch), and
- the GPS/Navstar program office
This has not been considered "paid advertising" but rather
"public relations", since the restrictions have been such that only
organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the
side, and there was no money exchanged for this. [However, putting
a 10' high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras
is "advertising" as much as it is "public relations", in my
opinion.] [And by the way, I note that the DC-X test vehicle has
rather prominent McDonnell-Douglas and SDIO logos on the side...]
There have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials
for use of space vehicles for advertising, or placing large
advertising signs in orbit. On the shuttle, for example, I know of
several serious studies in the early and mid 1980's which looked at
putting logos on the external tank, or on the sides of the payload
bay. These ventures would be different than "public relations", in
that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms
participating on that flight, and would involve payment of sums for
the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization. (For
example, painting the ET to look like a Pepsi can, or putting a
Disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras
would scan past it.)
ADVERTS ON LAUNCH VEHICLES
The first paid advertising was done on a Soviet launcher in about
1990, when several non-involved foreign organizations were allowed
to pay to put their logos on a Proton launch. (An Italian shoe
company was one of the first advertisers, I remember.) Similarly,
Soviet cosmonauts on Mir made a paid advertisement for the last
Olympic games, and have gleefully shown banners and other items from
participating firms and organizations. Mars candy bars, for
example, got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the
British visiting cosmonaut to Mir.
Now US firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch
vehicles. The upcoming Conestoga launch (in June) putting the COMET
recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements
on the side, for Arnold Schwarzenegger's upcoming movie "The Last
Action Hero". Besides the usual logos of the participating
organizations, Columbia pictures has paid $500,000 to put ads on the
main fuselage of the mission's Conestoga rocket, its booster
rockets, and on the COMET payload, which will orbit the Earth for
one month. A concept for this advertising display was published in
Space News magazine a couple of months ago.
(As a side note: Robert Lorsch, an advertising executive, is
talking about suing NASA. He charges NASA with appropriating an idea he
created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising
sponsorships on NASA spacecraft as a way to get funding for the
space program. Lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on
the upcoming COMET, NASA violated an agreement that it "would not use
his idea without him being the exclusive representative for NASA and
receiving compensation." This is being disputed, since the launch
is a "commercial launch" and NASA is receiving none of the
advertising revenues, but the funding for the COMET program is
coming from NASA.)
ORBITAL "BILLBOARDS"
Orbital "billboards" have been the staple of science fiction for
some time. Arthur C. Clarke wrote about one example, and Robert
Heinlein described another in "The Man Who Sold the Moon". Several
different potential projects have been developed, although none have
been implemented, but the most real prior to 1993 being the "Eiffel
II" project, which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in
orbit to celebrate the French Republic's Bi-centennial.
(cont)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
after prepro From WalesLarrisonofa123fidonetorg
Subject Space Advertising 1 of 2
XSender newtout 008 Feb 23 1993
Lines 81
Brian Yamauchi asks [Regarding orbital billboards]
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip How serious is this project Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
Well I had been collecting data for next edition of the
Commercial Space NewsSpace Technology Investor To summarize
SPACE ADVERTISING
First advertising on space vehicles is not new it is very
common practice to put the cooperating organizations logos on the
space launch vehicle For example the latest GPS launcher had the
very prominent logos on its side of
McDonnell Douglas the Delta launcher
Rockwell International who built the GPS satellite
USAF who paid for the satellite and launch and
the GPSNavstar program office
This has not been considered paid advertising but rather
public relations since the restrictions have been such that only
organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the
side and there was no money exchanged for this [However putting
a 10 high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras
is advertising as much as it is public relations in my
opinion] [And by the way I note that the DCX test vehicle has
rather prominent McDonnellDouglas and SDIO logos on the side]
There have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials
for use of space vehicles for advertising or placing large
advertising signs in orbit On the shuttle for example I know of
several serious studies in the early and mid 1980s which looked at
putting logos on the external tank or on the sides of the payload
bay These ventures would be different than public relations in
that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms
participating on that flight and would involve payment of sums for
the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization For
example painting the ET to look like a Pepsi can or putting a
Disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras
would scan past it
ADVERTS ON LAUNCH VEHICLES
The first paid advertising was done on a Soviet launcher in about
1990 when several noninvolved foreign organizations were allowed
to pay to put their logos on a Proton launch An Italian shoe
company was one of the first advertisers I remember Similarly
Soviet cosmonauts on Mir made a paid advertisement for the last
Olympic games and have gleefully shown banners and other items from
participating firms and organizations Mars candy bars for
example got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the
British visiting cosmonaut to Mir
Now US firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch
vehicles The upcoming Conestoga launch in June putting the COMET
recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements
on the side for Arnold Schwarzeneggers upcoming movie The Last
Action Hero Besides the usual logos of the participating
organizations Columbia pictures has paid 500000 to put ads on the
main fuselage of the missions Conestoga rocket its booster
rockets and on the COMET payload which will orbit the Earth for
one month A concept for this advertising display was published in
Space News magazine a couple of months ago
As a side note Robert Lorsch an advertising executive is
talking about suing NASA He charges NASA with appropriating an idea he
created with the space agency in 1981 to form corporate advertising
sponsorships on NASA spacecraft as a way to get funding for the
space program Lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on
the upcoming COMET NASA violated an agreement that it would not use
his idea without him being the exclusive representative for NASA and
receiving compensation This is being disputed since the launch
is a commercial launch and NASA is receiving none of the
advertising revenues but the funding for the COMET program is
coming from NASA
ORBITAL BILLBOARDS
Orbital billboards have been the staple of science fiction for
some time Arthur C Clarke wrote about one example and Robert
Heinlein described another in The Man Who Sold the Moon Several
different potential projects have been developed although none have
been implemented but the most real prior to 1993 being the Eiffel
II project which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in
orbit to celebrate the French Republics Bicentennial
cont
Maximus 201wb
preprocess doc From: yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: Griffin / Office of Exploration: RIP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: yuggoth.ces.cwru.edu
Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the "Chief
Engineer" position? Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle, or does this bode ill for SEI?
In my opinion, this seems like a Bad Thing, at least on the surface.
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done, and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster, better, and cheaper. It's unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position.
Does anyone know what his new duties will be?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
after prepro From yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi
Subject Griffin Office of Exploration RIP
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost yuggothcescwruedu
Any comments on the absorbtion of the Office of Exploration into the
Office of Space Sciences and the reassignment of Griffin to the Chief
Engineer position Is this just a meaningless administrative
shuffle or does this bode ill for SEI
In my opinion this seems like a Bad Thing at least on the surface
Griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting
things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to
getting things done faster better and cheaper Its unclear to me
whether he will be able to do this at his new position
Does anyone know what his new duties will be
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
_______________________________________________________________________________
preprocess doc From: jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green)
Subject: Re: Vulcan? (No, not the guy with the ears!)
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Lines: 31
>In article <VNci2B7w165w@inqmind.bison.mb.ca> victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking) writes:
>>From: victor@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (Victor Laking)
>>Subject: Vulcan? (No, not the guy with the ears!)
>>Date: Sun, 04 Apr 93 19:31:54 CDT
>>Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan?
>>
>>All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
>>drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercury's
>>orbit. Beyond that, I have no other info.
>>
>>Does anyone know anything more specific?
>>
As I heard the story, before Albert came up the the theory
o'relativity and warped space, nobody could account for
Mercury's orbit. It ran a little fast (I think) for simple
Newtonian physics. With the success in finding Neptune to
explain the odd movments of Uranus, it was postulated that there
might be another inner planet to explain Mercury's orbit.
It's unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the
sun than Mercury. I'm sure we would have spotted it by now.
Perhaps some professionals can confirm that.
/~~~(-: James T. Green :-)~~~~(-: jgreen@oboe.calpoly.edu :-)~~~\
| Heaven, n.: |
| A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk |
| of their own personal affairs, and the good listen with |
| attention while you expound your own. |
| Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" |
after prepro From jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green
Subject Re Vulcan No not the guy with the ears
Organization California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo
Lines 31
In article victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking writes
From victorinqmindbisonmbca Victor Laking
Subject Vulcan No not the guy with the ears
Date Sun 04 Apr 93 193154 CDT
Does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of Vulcan
All that I know is that there were apparently two sightings at
drastically different times of a small planet that was inside Mercurys
orbit Beyond that I have no other info
Does anyone know anything more specific
As I heard the story before Albert came up the the theory
orelativity and warped space nobody could account for
Mercurys orbit It ran a little fast I think for simple
Newtonian physics With the success in finding Neptune to
explain the odd movments of Uranus it was postulated that there
might be another inner planet to explain Mercurys orbit
Its unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the
sun than Mercury Im sure we would have spotted it by now
Perhaps some professionals can confirm that
James T Green jgreenoboecalpolyedu \
Heaven n
A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk
of their own personal affairs and the good listen with
attention while you expound your own
Ambrose Bierce The Devils Dictionary
preprocess doc From: aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines: 16
In article <1r46o9INN14j@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>So how much would it cost as a private venture, assuming you could talk the
>U.S. government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida?
Why would you want to do that? The goal is to do it cheaper (remember,
this isn't government). Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad,
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility.
Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." |
+----------------------56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+
after prepro From awsitiorg Allen W Sherzer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
Lines 16
In article 1r46o9INN14jmojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
So how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the
US government into leasing you a couple of pads in Florida
Why would you want to do that The goal is to do it cheaper remember
this isnt government Instead of leasing an expensive launch pad
just use a SSTO and launch from a much cheaper facility
Allen
Lady Astor Sir if you were my husband I would poison your coffee
W Churchill Madam if you were my wife I would drink it
56 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX
preprocess doc Organization: Penn State University
From: <MVS104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Distribution: world
<1pan4f$b6j@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1q0fngINNahu@gap.caltech.edu>
<C5C9FA.6zH@acsu.buffalo.edu> <1qabe7INNaff@gap.caltech.edu>
<1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu>
Lines: 11
In article <1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu>, SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu
(SCOTT D. SAUYET) says:
>Are these his final words? (And how many here would find that
>appropriate?) Or is it just that finals got in the way?
>Keep your fingers crossed!
Why should I keep my fingers crossed? I doubt it would do anything. :)
Martin Schulte
after prepro Organization Penn State University
From
Subject Re 1q0fngINNahugapcaltechedu
1qabe7INNaffgapcaltechedu
1993Apr15150938975newswesleyanedu
Lines 11
In article 1993Apr15150938975newswesleyanedu SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu
SCOTT D SAUYET says
Are these his final words And how many here would find that
appropriate Or is it just that finals got in the way
Keep your fingers crossed
Why should I keep my fingers crossed I doubt it would do anything
Martin Schulte
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: Genocide is Caused by Theism : Evidence?
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 26
In article <1qid04$fct@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>
>I don't see anything special about theism in general that makes it a
>particular hazard (more so than say, stupidity, anarchy, or patriotism).
>Of course, it depends on the religion, but I see nothing about believing
>in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia, genocide,
>etc.
If the emphasis is on the "in general", then of course you're
correct, since you haven't really said anything. If we restrict
our observations to practiced religions, there are lots of
examples of god mandated genocide. Just ask the Canaanites. The
point is that if you believe in a god, and if you believe he has
ordered you to eliminate an entire race, you will likely make the
attempt. After all, if it was OK in the past, it could surely be
OK in the present.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Genocide is Caused by Theism Evidence
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 26
In article 1qid04fcthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
I dont see anything special about theism in general that makes it a
particular hazard more so than say stupidity anarchy or patriotism
Of course it depends on the religion but I see nothing about believing
in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia genocide
etc
If the emphasis is on the in general then of course youre
correct since you havent really said anything If we restrict
our observations to practiced religions there are lots of
examples of god mandated genocide Just ask the Canaanites The
point is that if you believe in a god and if you believe he has
ordered you to eliminate an entire race you will likely make the
attempt After all if it was OK in the past it could surely be
OK in the present
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 11
In article <C5sx3y.3z9.1@cs.cmu.edu> 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom) writes:
>On the other hand, if Apollo cost ~25billion, for a few days or weeks
>in space, in 1970 dollars, then won't the reward have to be a lot more
>than only 1 billion to get any takers?
Apollo was done the hard way, in a big hurry, from a very limited
technology base... and on government contracts. Just doing it privately,
rather than as a government project, cuts costs by a factor of several.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 11
In article 18084TMmsuedu Tom writes
On the other hand if Apollo cost 25billion for a few days or weeks
in space in 1970 dollars then wont the reward have to be a lot more
than only 1 billion to get any takers
Apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited
technology base and on government contracts Just doing it privately
rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: pearson@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (N. Shirlene Pearson)
Subject: Re: Sunrise/ sunset times
Nntp-Posting-Host: wren
Organization: Applied Research Labs, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 13
jpw@cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Joseph Wetstein) writes:
>Hello. I am looking for a program (or algorithm) that can be used
>to compute sunrise and sunset times.
Would you mind posting the responses you get?
I am also interested, and there may be others.
Thanks,
N. Shirlene Pearson
pearson@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
after prepro From pearsontsdarlututexasedu N Shirlene Pearson
Subject Re Sunrise sunset times
NntpPostingHost wren
Organization Applied Research Labs University of Texas at Austin
Lines 13
jpwcbisecedrexeledu Joseph Wetstein writes
Hello I am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used
to compute sunrise and sunset times
Would you mind posting the responses you get
I am also interested and there may be others
Thanks
N Shirlene Pearson
pearsontitantsdarlututexasedu
preprocess doc From: william.vaughan@uuserv.cc.utah.edu (WILLIAM DANIEL VAUGHAN)
Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
Lines: 9
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
In article <pww-120493020107@spac-at1-59.rice.edu> pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker) writes:
>From: pww@spacsun.rice.edu (Peter Walker)
>Subject: Re: A silly question on x-tianity
>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 07:06:33 GMT
>In article <1qaqi1INNgje@gap.caltech.edu>, werdna@cco.caltech.edu (Andrew
>Tong) wrote:
>>
so what
after prepro From williamvaughanuuservccutahedu WILLIAM DANIEL VAUGHAN
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
Lines 9
Organization University of Utah Computer Center
In article pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker writes
From pwwspacsunriceedu Peter Walker
Subject Re A silly question on xtianity
Date Mon 12 Apr 1993 070633 GMT
In article 1qaqi1INNgjegapcaltechedu werdnaccocaltechedu Andrew
Tong wrote
so what
preprocess doc From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: space food sticks
Article-I.D.: aio.1993Apr6.134526.14966
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
Lines: 17
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
John Elson (jelson@rcnext.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Has anyone ever heard of a food product called "Space Food Sticks?"
I remember those awful things. They were dry and crumbly, and I
recall asking my third-grade teacher, Miss G'Francisco, how they
kept the crumbs from floating around in zero-G. She had no clue.
I have not seen anything like them in today's space program.
Some Apollo technology is best forgotten.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"HERE MEN FROM THE PLANET EARTH
FIRST SET FOOT UPON THE MOON
JULY 1969, A.D.
WE CAME IN PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND."
after prepro From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
Subject Re space food sticks
ArticleID aio1993Apr613452614966
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
Lines 17
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
John Elson jelsonrcnextcsouiucedu wrote
Has anyone ever heard of a food product called Space Food Sticks
I remember those awful things They were dry and crumbly and I
recall asking my thirdgrade teacher Miss GFrancisco how they
kept the crumbs from floating around in zeroG She had no clue
I have not seen anything like them in todays space program
Some Apollo technology is best forgotten
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
HERE MEN FROM THE PLANET EARTH
FIRST SET FOOT UPON THE MOON
JULY 1969 AD
WE CAME IN PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND
preprocess doc From: hathaway@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
Distribution: na
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines: 101
>Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space
>Subject: Re: Vandalizing the sky.
>
(excerpts from posting on this topic)
>In article <C5t05K.DB6@research.canon.oz.au> enzo@research.canon.oz.au
>(Enzo Liguori) writes:
>
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.
>...
>>... the real purpose of the project is to help the environment!
>>The platform will carry ozone monitors
>
>...
>I can't believe that a mile-long billboard would have any significant
>effect on the overall sky brightness. Venus is visible during the day,
>but nobody complains about that. Besides, it's in LEO, so it would only
>be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright, and even if
>it would have some miniscule impact, it would be only for a short time
>as it goes zipping across the sky.
>
(I've seen satellites at midnight - they're not only in twilight.) :o)
>...
>
>From the book "Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla" by John J. O'Neill:
>
>"This remarkable conductivity of gases, including the air, at low
>pressures, led Tesla to suggest, in a published statement in 1914, a
>system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat
>the whole Earth, with its surrounding atmosphere, as if it were a
>single lamp....
>The whole Earth would be transformed into a giant lamp, with the night
>sky completely illuminated. ... making the night as bright as day."
>
Now my comments:
I'd like to add that some of the "protests" do not come from a strictly
practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for
research activities by professional astronomers. Some of what I
would complain about is rooted in aesthetics. Many readers may
never have known a time where the heavens were pristine - sacred -
unsullied by the actions of humans. The space between the stars
as profoundly black as an abyss can be. With full horizons and
a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time
- none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man.
Any lights were supplied solely by nature; uncorruptable by men.
Whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there
and becoming immortal as the stars, whether by apotheosis or a belief
in an afterlife.
The Space Age changed all that. The effect of the first Sputniks
and Echo, etc. on this view could only happen once. To see a light
crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people
is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating
the scales involved is also awesome - even if the few hundreds or
thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe.
But there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky.
Yes, I know aircraft are almost always in sight. I have to live
in a very populated area (6 miles from an international airport
currently) where light pollution on the ground is ghastly. The
impact of humans is so extreme here - virtually no place exists
that has not been shaped, sculpted, modified, trashed or whipped
into shape by the hands of man. In some places the only life
forms larger than bacteria are humans, cockroaches, and squirrels
(or rats). I visited some friends up in the Appalacian mountains
one weekend, "getting away from it all" (paved roads, indoor plumbing,
malls, ...) and it felt good for a while - then I quickly noticed
the hollow was directly under the main flight path into Dulles - 60-80
miles to the east. (Their 'security light' didn't help matters
much either.) But I've heard the artic wilderness gets lots of
high air traffic. So I know the skies are rarely perfect.
But there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn't
fouled in some way. (I mean they've been TRYING this forever -
like, concerning Tesla's idea to banish night, - wow!) I don't watch
commercial television, but I can imagine just how disgusting beer,
truck, or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high.
If ya' gotta make a buck on it (displaying products in heaven), at
least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last
beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life.
To be open about this though, I have here my listing of the passage
of HST in the evening sky for this weekend - tonight Friday at
8:25 p.m. EDT it will reach an altitude of 20.1 degrees on the
local meridian from Baltimore vicinity. I'll be trying to see it
if I can - it _is_ my mealticket after all. So I suppose I could
be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky
while complaining about billboards proposed by others. Be that
as it may, I think my point about a desire for beauty is valid,
even if it can't ever be perfectly achieved.
Regards,
Wm. Hathaway
Baltimore MD
after prepro From hathawaystsciedu
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
Distribution na
Organization Space Telescope Science Institute
Lines 101
Newsgroups sciastroscispace
Subject Re Vandalizing the sky
excerpts from posting on this topic
In article enzoresearchcanonozau
Enzo Liguori writes
Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit
the real purpose of the project is to help the environment
The platform will carry ozone monitors
I cant believe that a milelong billboard would have any significant
effect on the overall sky brightness Venus is visible during the day
but nobody complains about that Besides its in LEO so it would only
be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if
it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time
as it goes zipping across the sky
Ive seen satellites at midnight theyre not only in twilight o
From the book Prodigal Genius The Life of Nikola Tesla by John J ONeill
This remarkable conductivity of gases including the air at low
pressures led Tesla to suggest in a published statement in 1914 a
system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat
the whole Earth with its surrounding atmosphere as if it were a
single lamp
The whole Earth would be transformed into a giant lamp with the night
sky completely illuminated making the night as bright as day
Now my comments
Id like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly
practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for
research activities by professional astronomers Some of what I
would complain about is rooted in aesthetics Many readers may
never have known a time where the heavens were pristine sacred
unsullied by the actions of humans The space between the stars
as profoundly black as an abyss can be With full horizons and
a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time
none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man
Any lights were supplied solely by nature uncorruptable by men
Whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there
and becoming immortal as the stars whether by apotheosis or a belief
in an afterlife
The Space Age changed all that The effect of the first Sputniks
and Echo etc on this view could only happen once To see a light
crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people
is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating
the scales involved is also awesome even if the few hundreds or
thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe
But there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky
Yes I know aircraft are almost always in sight I have to live
in a very populated area 6 miles from an international airport
currently where light pollution on the ground is ghastly The
impact of humans is so extreme here virtually no place exists
that has not been shaped sculpted modified trashed or whipped
into shape by the hands of man In some places the only life
forms larger than bacteria are humans cockroaches and squirrels
or rats I visited some friends up in the Appalacian mountains
one weekend getting away from it all paved roads indoor plumbing
malls and it felt good for a while then I quickly noticed
the hollow was directly under the main flight path into Dulles 6080
miles to the east Their security light didnt help matters
much either But Ive heard the artic wilderness gets lots of
high air traffic So I know the skies are rarely perfect
But there is still this desire to see a place that man hasnt
fouled in some way I mean theyve been TRYING this forever
like concerning Teslas idea to banish night wow I dont watch
commercial television but I can imagine just how disgusting beer
truck or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high
If ya gotta make a buck on it displaying products in heaven at
least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last
beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life
To be open about this though I have here my listing of the passage
of HST in the evening sky for this weekend tonight Friday at
825 pm EDT it will reach an altitude of 201 degrees on the
local meridian from Baltimore vicinity Ill be trying to see it
if I can it _is_ my mealticket after all So I suppose I could
be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky
while complaining about billboards proposed by others Be that
as it may I think my point about a desire for beauty is valid
even if it cant ever be perfectly achieved
Regards
Wm Hathaway
Baltimore MD
preprocess doc From: jimh@carson.u.washington.edu (James Hogan)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Keywords: slander calumny
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 60
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
In article <1993Apr16.222525.16024@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>In article <1993Apr16.171722.159590@zeus.calpoly.edu>,
>jmunch@hertz.elee.calpoly.edu (John Munch) wrote:
>>
>> In article <1993Apr15.212943.15118@bnr.ca> (Rashid) writes:
>> >P.S. I'm not sure about this but I think the charge of "shatim" also
>> >applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
>> >of the "fasad" ruling.
>>
>> Please define the words "shatim" and "fasad" before you use them again.
>
>My apologies. "Shatim", I believe, refers to slandering or spreading
>slander and lies about the Prophets(a.s) - any of the Prophets.
Basically, any prophet I've ever dealt with has either been busy
hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in
Florida. Then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets
and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it.
>It's a kind of willful caulmny and "cursing" that's indicated by the
>word. This is the best explanation I can come up with off the top
>of my head - I'll try and look up a more technical definition when I
>have the time.
Never mind that, but let me tell you about this Chevelle I bought
from this dude (you guessed it, a prophet) named Mohammed. I've
got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks, then Manny,
my mechanic, tells me it was loaded with sawdust! Take a guess
whether "Mohammed" was anywhere to be found. I don't think so.
>
>"Fasad" is a little more difficult to describe. Again, this is not
>a technical definition - I'll try and get that later. Literally,
Oh, Mohammed!
>the word "fasad" means mischief. But it's a mischief on the order of
>magnitude indicated by the word "corruption". It's when someone who
>is doing something wrong to begin with, seeks to escalate the hurt,
Yeah, you, Mohammed!
>disorder, concern, harm etc. (the mischief) initially caused by their
>actions. The "wrong" is specifically related to attacks against
>"God and His Messenger" and mischief, corruption, disorder etc.
You slimy mass of pond scum!
>resulting from that. The attack need not be a physical attack and there
>are different levels of penalty proscribed, depending on the extent
>of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to
>"make hay" of the situation. The severest punishment is death.
Yeah, right! You're the one should be watching your butt. You and
your buddy Allah. The stereo he sold me croaked after two days.
Your ass is grass!
Jim
Yeah, that's right, Jim.
after prepro From jimhcarsonuwashingtonedu James Hogan
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Keywords slander calumny
Organization University of Washington Seattle
Lines 60
NNTPPostingHost carsonuwashingtonedu
In article 1993Apr1622252516024bnrca Rashid writes
In article 1993Apr16171722159590zeuscalpolyedu
jmunchhertzeleecalpolyedu John Munch wrote
In article 1993Apr1521294315118bnrca Rashid writes
PS Im not sure about this but I think the charge of shatim also
applies to Rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella
of the fasad ruling
Please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again
My apologies Shatim I believe refers to slandering or spreading
slander and lies about the Prophetsas any of the Prophets
Basically any prophet Ive ever dealt with has either been busy
hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in
Florida Then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets
and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it
Its a kind of willful caulmny and cursing thats indicated by the
word This is the best explanation I can come up with off the top
of my head Ill try and look up a more technical definition when I
have the time
Never mind that but let me tell you about this Chevelle I bought
from this dude you guessed it a prophet named Mohammed Ive
got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then Manny
my mechanic tells me it was loaded with sawdust Take a guess
whether Mohammed was anywhere to be found I dont think so
Fasad is a little more difficult to describe Again this is not
a technical definition Ill try and get that later Literally
Oh Mohammed
the word fasad means mischief But its a mischief on the order of
magnitude indicated by the word corruption Its when someone who
is doing something wrong to begin with seeks to escalate the hurt
Yeah you Mohammed
disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused by their
actions The wrong is specifically related to attacks against
God and His Messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc
You slimy mass of pond scum
resulting from that The attack need not be a physical attack and there
are different levels of penalty proscribed depending on the extent
of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to
make hay of the situation The severest punishment is death
Yeah right Youre the one should be watching your butt You and
your buddy Allah The stereo he sold me croaked after two days
Your ass is grass
Jim
Yeah thats right Jim
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Morality? (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>So, you are saying that it isn't possible for an instinctive act
>>to be moral one?
>I like to think that many things are possible. Explain to me
>how instinctive acts can be moral acts, and I am happy to listen.
For example, if it were instinctive not to murder...
>>That is, in order for an act to be an act of morality,
>>the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard
>>it?
>Weaker than that. There must be the possibility that the
>organism - it's not just people we are talking about - can
>consider alternatives.
So, only intelligent beings can be moral, even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs? And, how much emphasis do you place on intelligence?
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily, but they
don't. Are you trying to say that this isn't an act of morality because
most animals aren't intelligent enough to think like we do?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Morality was Re So you are saying that it isnt possible for an instinctive act
to be moral one
I like to think that many things are possible Explain to me
how instinctive acts can be moral acts and I am happy to listen
For example if it were instinctive not to murder
That is in order for an act to be an act of morality
the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard
it
Weaker than that There must be the possibility that the
organism its not just people we are talking about can
consider alternatives
So only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other
beings mimics theirs And how much emphasis do you place on intelligence
Animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they
dont Are you trying to say that this isnt an act of morality because
most animals arent intelligent enough to think like we do
keith
preprocess doc From: flb@flb.optiplan.fi ("F.Baube[tm]")
Subject: First Spacewalk
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
(Alexei Leonov ?) was a staged fake.
Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged ?
Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination ?
--
* Fred Baube (tm) * In times of intellectual ferment,
* baube@optiplan.fi * advantage to him with the intellect
* #include <disclaimer.h> * most fermented !
* How is Frank Zappa doing ?
* May '68, Paris: It's Retrospective Time !!
after prepro From flbflboptiplanfi FBaube[tm]
Subject First Spacewalk
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13
At one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk
Alexei Leonov was a staged fake
Has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged
Was this claim perhaps another fevered Cold War hallucination
Fred Baube tm In times of intellectual ferment
baubeoptiplanfi advantage to him with the intellect
include most fermented
How is Frank Zappa doing
May 68 Paris Its Retrospective Time
preprocess doc From: jbatka@desire.wright.edu
Subject: Re: Gamma Ray Bursters. WHere are they.
Organization: Wright State University
Lines: 16
I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
event and the 1/r^2 law. So, if the 1/r^2 law is incorrect (assume
some unknown material [dark matter??] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation),
could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
events happening much closer to us? The even distribution could
be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays
being shorter then 1/2 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy.
Just some idle babbling,
--
Jim Batka | Work Email: BATKAJ@CCMAIL.DAYTON.SAIC.COM | Elvis is
| Home Email: JBATKA@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU | DEAD!
64 years is 33,661,440 minutes ...
and a minute is a LONG time! - Beatles: _ Yellow Submarine_
after prepro From jbatkadesirewrightedu
Subject Re Gamma Ray Bursters WHere are they
Organization Wright State University
Lines 16
I assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the
event and the 1r^2 law So if the 1r^2 law is incorrect assume
some unknown material [dark matter] inhibits Gamma Ray propagation
could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic
events happening much closer to us The even distribution could
be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays
being shorter then 12 the thickness of the disk of the galaxy
Just some idle babbling
Jim Batka Work Email BATKAJCCMAILDAYTONSAICCOM Elvis is
Home Email JBATKADESIREWRIGHTEDU DEAD
64 years is 33661440 minutes
and a minute is a LONG time Beatles _ Yellow Submarine_
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1993Apr6.061329.25582@den.mmc.com>, seale@possum.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes...
>baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>>According the IAU Circular #5744, Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e, may be
>>temporarily in orbit around Jupiter. The comet had apparently made a
>>close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
>>comet.
>
>Ooooh -- who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
>check out a comet TOO?!?
Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973. Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations. The orbital trajectory for Comet
Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 22
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1993Apr606132925582denmmccom sealepossumdenmmccom Eric H Seale writes
baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
According the IAU Circular 5744 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e may be
temporarily in orbit around Jupiter The comet had apparently made a
close flyby of Jupiter sometime in 1992 resulting in the breakup of the
comet
Ooooh who would have thought that Galileo would get the chance to
check out a comet TOO
Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 51
In <11836@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike
Cobb) writes:
>>In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
writes:
>>
>>
>>> Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. Ignorance of the
>>> existence of any god. Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
>>> because of their pride" mistake.
>>
>>How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
>>be wrong
>>to fall into the trap that you mentioned?
>>
> If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake. That
> he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
> undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.
What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
choices up to you?
> As for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that I don't
> believe in god because I do not wish to. Unless you can know my
> motivations better than I do myself, you should believe me when I
> say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
> him.
I definitely agree that it's rather presumptuous for either "side" to give some
psychological reasoning for another's belief.
MAC
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
>They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
>and sank Manhattan out at sea.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 51
In 11836viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike
Cobb writes
In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
writes
Actually my atheism is based on ignorance Ignorance of the
existence of any god Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
because of their pride mistake
How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong
to fall into the trap that you mentioned
If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake That
he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes
What are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your
choices up to you
As for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that I dont
believe in god because I do not wish to Unless you can know my
motivations better than I do myself you should believe me when I
say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
him
I definitely agree that its rather presumptuous for either side to give some
psychological reasoning for anothers belief
MAC
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: pvtmakela@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI (M{kel{ Veikko)
Subject: Re: Astronomy Program
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
In article <28641@galaxy.ucr.edu> datadec@ucrengr.ucr.edu
(kevin marcus) writes:
>Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
>map out the sky at any given time, and allow you to locate planets, nebulae,
>and so forth? If so, is there any ftp site where I can get one?
There are several star map programs available. Your
job is to choose that you like. Try anonymous-FTP
from:
ftp.funet.fi:pub/astro/pc/stars
pc/solar
mac
amiga
atari
regards,
-Veikko-
after prepro From pvtmakelahylkn1HelsinkiFI Mkel Veikko
Subject Re Astronomy Program
Organization University of Helsinki
Lines 20
In article 28641galaxyucredu datadecucrengrucredu
kevin marcus writes
Are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will
map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae
and so forth If so is there any ftp site where I can get one
There are several star map programs available Your
job is to choose that you like Try anonymousFTP
from
ftpfunetfipubastropcstars
pcsolar
mac
amiga
atari
regards
Veikko
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Lines: 37
Benedikt Rosenau (I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de) wrote:
: When the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers
: act in a certain way and we observe that they don't, we have a contradiction.
: Something defined contradictorily cannot exist. That what the believe in does
: not exist. Secondly, there are better explanations for why they believe than
: the existence of the object of their belief.
:
:
: Have you read the FAQ already?
: Benedikt
Benedikt,
I can't recall anyone claiming that God -makes- anyone act a particlar
way, I think that you're attempting to manufacture a contradiction.
God is said to require certain behavior, but the only compulsion is
the believer's sense of duty. A standard of conduct does exist, but we
are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever
ways we find convenient, but our response to God's edicts can in no
way be used to question God's existence. The behavior of believers is
a completely separate question from that of God's existence; there is
nothing contradictory here.
To say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist, is really
asking too much; you would have existence depend on grammar. All you
can really say is that something is poorly defined, but that in itself
is insufficient to decide anything (other than confusion of course).
Your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief
than the object of belief may lead to a rat's nest of unnecessary
complexity. I think I know what you're implying, but I'd like to see
your version of this better alternative just the same.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re islamic authority over women
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
Lines 37
Benedikt Rosenau I3150101dbstu1rztubsde wrote
When the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers
act in a certain way and we observe that they dont we have a contradiction
Something defined contradictorily cannot exist That what the believe in does
not exist Secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than
the existence of the object of their belief
Have you read the FAQ already
Benedikt
Benedikt
I cant recall anyone claiming that God makes anyone act a particlar
way I think that youre attempting to manufacture a contradiction
God is said to require certain behavior but the only compulsion is
the believers sense of duty A standard of conduct does exist but we
are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever
ways we find convenient but our response to Gods edicts can in no
way be used to question Gods existence The behavior of believers is
a completely separate question from that of Gods existence there is
nothing contradictory here
To say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really
asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar All you
can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself
is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course
Your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief
than the object of belief may lead to a rats nest of unnecessary
complexity I think I know what youre implying but Id like to see
your version of this better alternative just the same
Bill
preprocess doc From: datepper@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Aaron Tepper)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Originator: news@nimaster
Nntp-Posting-Host: phoenix.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 28
In article <30136@ursa.bear.com> halat@pooh.bears (Jim Halat) writes:
>In article <1qjd3o$nlv@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>>Firstly, science has its basis in values, not the other way round.
>>So you better explain what objective atoms are, and how we get them
>>from subjective values, before we go any further.
>
>Atoms are not objective. They aren't even real. What scientists call
>an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes
>certain physical, observable properties of our surroundings. All
>of which is subjective.
[rest deleted...]
You were a liberal arts major, weren'tcha?
Guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world--
"IBM" made with noble gas atoms (krypton? xenon? I forget the
specifics).
Atoms, trees, electrons are all independently observable and
verifiable. Morals aren't. See the difference?
Tep
--
Men who love brown tend to be warm and deep, sensitive to the needs and
desires of their partners. Sex is a 24 hour a day thing. Snuggling by
the fire, walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is
a real turn-on to a lover of brown. (thanx becka!)
after prepro From datepperphoenixPrincetonEDU David Aaron Tepper
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Originator newsnimaster
NntpPostingHost phoenixprincetonedu
Organization Princeton University
Lines 28
In article 30136ursabearcom halatpoohbears Jim Halat writes
In article 1qjd3onlvhorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round
So you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them
from subjective values before we go any further
Atoms are not objective They arent even real What scientists call
an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes
certain physical observable properties of our surroundings All
of which is subjective
[rest deleted]
You were a liberal arts major werentcha
Guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world
IBM made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon I forget the
specifics
Atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and
verifiable Morals arent See the difference
Tep
Men who love brown tend to be warm and deep sensitive to the needs and
desires of their partners Sex is a 24 hour a day thing Snuggling by
the fire walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is
a real turnon to a lover of brown thanx becka
preprocess doc From: uck@netcom.com (Tom Chamberlain)
Subject: Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 6
Has anyone heard of or Played Buzz Aldrin's Race into Space?
Does anyone know when it is expected to be released...?
Thanx, Tom.
after prepro From ucknetcomcom Tom Chamberlain
Subject Buzz Aldrins Race Into Space
Organization NETCOM Online Communication Services 408 2419760 guest
Lines 6
Has anyone heard of or Played Buzz Aldrins Race into Space
Does anyone know when it is expected to be released
Thanx Tom
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 23
In article <3HgF3B3w165w@shakala.com> dante@shakala.com (Charlie Prael) writes:
>Doug-- Actually, if memory serves, the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old
>Titan ICBM...
Nope, you're confusing separate programs. Atlas was the first-generation
US ICBM; Titan I was the second-generation one; Titan II, which all the
Titan launchers are based on, was the third-generation heavy ICBM. There
was essentially nothing in common between these three programs.
(Yes, *three* programs. Despite the similarity of names, Titan I and
Titan II were completely different missiles. They didn't even use the
same fuels, never mind the same launch facilities.)
>If so, there's probably quite a few old pads, albeit in need
>of some serious reconditioning. Still, Being able to buy the turf and
>pad (and bunkers, including prep facility) at Midwest farmland prices
>strikes me as pretty damned cheap.
Sorry, the Titan silos (a) can't handle the Titan launchers with their
large SRBs, (b) can't handle *any* sort of launcher without massive
violations of normal range-safety rules (nobody cares about such things
in the event of a nuclear war, but in peacetime they matter), and (c) were
scrapped years ago.
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 23
In article 3HgF3B3w165wshakalacom danteshakalacom Charlie Prael writes
Doug Actually if memory serves the Atlas is an outgrowth of the old
Titan ICBM
Nope youre confusing separate programs Atlas was the firstgeneration
US ICBM Titan I was the secondgeneration one Titan II which all the
Titan launchers are based on was the thirdgeneration heavy ICBM There
was essentially nothing in common between these three programs
Yes three programs Despite the similarity of names Titan I and
Titan II were completely different missiles They didnt even use the
same fuels never mind the same launch facilities
If so theres probably quite a few old pads albeit in need
of some serious reconditioning Still Being able to buy the turf and
pad and bunkers including prep facility at Midwest farmland prices
strikes me as pretty damned cheap
Sorry the Titan silos a cant handle the Titan launchers with their
large SRBs b cant handle any sort of launcher without massive
violations of normal rangesafety rules nobody cares about such things
in the event of a nuclear war but in peacetime they matter and c were
scrapped years ago
preprocess doc From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Lines: 13
In article <EDM.93Apr15104322@gocart.twisto.compaq.com>, edm@twisto.compaq.com (Ed McCreary) writes:
> >>>>> On Thu, 15 Apr 1993 04:54:38 GMT, bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) said:
>
> DLB> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
> DLB> makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
> DLB>lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
> DLB>writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
> DLB> in the process he became a Christian himself.
>
> Here we go again...
Just the friendly folks at Christian Central, come to save you.
after prepro From decaycbnewsjcbattcom deankaflowitz
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization ATT
Distribution na
Lines 13
In article edmtwistocompaqcom Ed McCreary writes
On Thu 15 Apr 1993 045438 GMT bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL said
DLB First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
DLB makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
DLBlunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
DLBwrites the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
DLB in the process he became a Christian himself
Here we go again
Just the friendly folks at Christian Central come to save you
preprocess doc From: jim@inqmind.bison.mb.ca (jim jaworski)
Subject: Re: How many read sci.space?
Organization: The Inquiring Mind BBS 1 204 488-1607
Lines: 36
rborden@ugly.UVic.CA (Ross Borden) writes:
> In article <734850108.F00002@permanet.org> Mark.Prado@p2.f349.n109.z1.permane
> >
> >One could go on and on and on here, but I wonder ... how
> >many people read sci.space and of what power/influence are
> >these individuals?
> >
> Quick! Everyone who sees this, post a reply that says:
>
> "Hey, I read sci.space!"
>
> Then we can count them, and find out how many there are! :-)
> (This will also help answer that nagging question: "Just what is
> the maximum bandwidth of the Internet, anyways?")
>
As an Amateur Radio operator (VHF 2metres) I like to keep up with what is
going up (and for that matter what is coming down too).
In about 30 days I have learned ALOT about satellites current, future and
past all the way back to Vanguard series and up to Astro D observatory
(space). I borrowed a book from the library called Weater Satellites (I
think, it has a photo of the earth with a TIROS type satellite on it.)
I would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the
TIROS satellites I think there are places in the USA that sell them.
ITOS is my favorite looking satellite, followed by AmSat-OSCAR 13
(AO-13).
TTYL
73
Jim
jim@inqmind.bison.mb.ca
The Inquiring Mind BBS, Winnipeg, Manitoba 204 488-1607
after prepro From jiminqmindbisonmbca jim jaworski
Subject Re How many read scispace
Organization The Inquiring Mind BBS 1 204 4881607
Lines 36
rbordenuglyUVicCA Ross Borden writes
In article 734850108F00002permanetorg MarkPradop2f349n109z1permane
One could go on and on and on here but I wonder how
many people read scispace and of what powerinfluence are
these individuals
Quick Everyone who sees this post a reply that says
Hey I read scispace
Then we can count them and find out how many there are
This will also help answer that nagging question Just what is
the maximum bandwidth of the Internet anyways
As an Amateur Radio operator VHF 2metres I like to keep up with what is
going up and for that matter what is coming down too
In about 30 days I have learned ALOT about satellites current future and
past all the way back to Vanguard series and up to Astro D observatory
space I borrowed a book from the library called Weater Satellites I
think it has a photo of the earth with a TIROS type satellite on it
I would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the
TIROS satellites I think there are places in the USA that sell them
ITOS is my favorite looking satellite followed by AmSatOSCAR 13
AO13
TTYL
73
Jim
jiminqmindbisonmbca
The Inquiring Mind BBS Winnipeg Manitoba 204 4881607
preprocess doc From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Why DC-1 will be the way of the future.
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Nntp-Posting-Host: prism.engrg.uwo.ca
Lines: 9
Hmmm. I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record-
players and radios in the 1960s wasn't better performance but lower
per-unit cost than vacuum-tube systems.
Mind you, my father was a vacuum-tube fan in the 60s (Switched
to solid-state in the mid-seventies and then abruptly died; no doubt
there's a lesson in that) and his account could have been biased.
James Nicoll
after prepro From jdnicollprismccsuwoca James Davis Nicoll
Subject Re Why DC1 will be the way of the future
Organization University of Western Ontario London
NntpPostingHost prismengrguwoca
Lines 9
Hmmm I seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record
players and radios in the 1960s wasnt better performance but lower
perunit cost than vacuumtube systems
Mind you my father was a vacuumtube fan in the 60s Switched
to solidstate in the midseventies and then abruptly died no doubt
theres a lesson in that and his account could have been biased
James Nicoll
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: JPL's VLBI Project Meets with International Space Agencies
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 112
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Keywords: VLBI, JPL
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
From the "JPL Universe"
April 23, 1993
VLBI project meets with international space agencies
By Ed McNevin
Members of JPL's Space Very Long Baseline Interferometry
(VLBI) project team recently concluded a week-long series of
meetings with officials from Russia and Japan.
The meetings were part of "Space VLBI Week" held at JPL in
early March and were intended to maintain cooperation between
international space agencies participating in the development of
the U.S. Space VLBI Project, a recently approved JPL flight
project set for launch in 1995.
U.S. Space VLBI will utilize two Earth-orbiting spacecraft
-- the Japanese VSOP (VLBI Space Observing Program) satellite
with its 8-meter radio telescope, and a Russian RADIOASTRON
10-meter satellite. Both spacecraft will team up with
ground-based radio telescopes located around the world to create
a radio telescope network that astronomers hope will expand radio
telescope observing power by a factor of 10.
Japan's VSOP satellite will use a limited six-hour orbit to
conduct imaging science, while the Russian RADIOASTRON spacecraft
will exploit a larger, 28-hour Earth orbit to conduct exploratory
radio astronomy. Each satellite will point at a source target for
roughly 24 hours, while approximately 20 ground-based radio
telescopes will simultaneously point at the same source object
while within view on Earth.
According to Dr. Joel Smith, JPL's project manager for the
U.S. Space VLBI, meetings like those held at JPL will permit
Japan and Russia, who have little previous experience in radio
interferometry, to establish working relationships with the radio
astronomy communities that will be vital during the complex
observations required by the Space VLBI project.
"One of our main activities is developing the methodology
for international coordination, because the two spacecraft
simultaneously rely on the corresponding tracking stations while
using the ground-based radio telescopes to observe the same
celestial objects," said Smith.
Three new tracking antennas are being built at DSN
facilities and other three other tracking facilities located in
Japan, Russia and Green Bank, W.Va. This global network of
ground-based radio telescopes will use precision clocks and
high-speed recorders to collect observation data and forward the
information to a correlator located at the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory in Socorro, N.M. The correlator will
combine and process data, then make it available to mission
investigators in Moscow, Tokyo, and JPL via electronic mail.
Smith is optimistic that the massive radio telescope created
by the Space VLBI network will provide radio astronomers with
better resolution than has ever been achieved before by
ground-based radio telescopes, allowing astronomers to take a
closer look at distant objects in space.
"There is a long history of radio astronomy using
ground-based telescopes," said Smith. "What we intend to do is to
extend radio astronomy into Earth orbit. Our goal is to look
deeper into the cores of galactic nuclei, quasars and other
active radio sources to understand what drives those things we
have seen so far with radio astronomy."
Smith noted that if one examines "the active galactic
nuclei, you'll find jets appearing to spew at speeds greater than
light, and at energy levels that are millions of times greater
than you would expect."
He said some astronomers believe that black holes may be
located in the cores of these galaxies, and that they may fuel
the jets. Smith hopes that "by using Space VLBI to look further
into the cores, this theory may be supported or disproved."
Russian space-flight hardware, including transponders and
transmitters, are now being tested in the United States, and
Japanese hardware is scheduled to arrive for testing later this
year. Analysis of this hardware will permit U.S. scientists and
engineers to understand how to modify the high-speed VLBA
Correlator operating at the NRAO in order to accommodate the odd
data patterns that will originate from the more than 20
ground-based radio telescopes involved in Space VLBI.
Smith is particularly pleased that meetings with the
Japanese and Russian space agency officials -- like those held at
JPL in March -- have proceeded smoothly. Yet he knows that the
political uncertainty in Russia could jeopardize that country's
participation in the project.
"Nothing is ever smooth," he said, "but the Russians have
been incredibly open with us. We always anticipated some
likelihood that we will not succeed because of political factors
beyond our control, yet there tends to be a way of keeping these
things going, because scientists on both sides are trying hard,
and people recognize the value of cooperation at this level."
Smith points out that the Japanese space agency has more at
stake than just fulfilling an international commitment to a
science mission.
"The Japanese have been extremely cooperative, since
international cooperation is essential to their science mission,"
he said.
But Smith also noted that Japanese space agency officials
look at the U.S. Space VLBI mission as an opportunity to showcase
the technology involved with VSOP spacecraft, and their highly
regarded Mach V launch vehicle.
Yet regardless of the risks involved in undertaking such an
ambitious project, JPL's Smith is satisfied that planning for the
Space VLBI Project is beyond the significant financial and
political hurdles that otherwise might threaten the project.
"Fortunately, we have the virtue of having two partners, and
if either falls out, we would still have something with the
other. By themselves, both spacecraft are independent,
scientifically exciting missions."
###
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | The aweto from New Zealand
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | is part caterpillar and
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | part vegetable.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject JPLs VLBI Project Meets with International Space Agencies
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 112
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
Keywords VLBI JPL
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
From the JPL Universe
April 23 1993
VLBI project meets with international space agencies
By Ed McNevin
Members of JPLs Space Very Long Baseline Interferometry
VLBI project team recently concluded a weeklong series of
meetings with officials from Russia and Japan
The meetings were part of Space VLBI Week held at JPL in
early March and were intended to maintain cooperation between
international space agencies participating in the development of
the US Space VLBI Project a recently approved JPL flight
project set for launch in 1995
US Space VLBI will utilize two Earthorbiting spacecraft
the Japanese VSOP VLBI Space Observing Program satellite
with its 8meter radio telescope and a Russian RADIOASTRON
10meter satellite Both spacecraft will team up with
groundbased radio telescopes located around the world to create
a radio telescope network that astronomers hope will expand radio
telescope observing power by a factor of 10
Japans VSOP satellite will use a limited sixhour orbit to
conduct imaging science while the Russian RADIOASTRON spacecraft
will exploit a larger 28hour Earth orbit to conduct exploratory
radio astronomy Each satellite will point at a source target for
roughly 24 hours while approximately 20 groundbased radio
telescopes will simultaneously point at the same source object
while within view on Earth
According to Dr Joel Smith JPLs project manager for the
US Space VLBI meetings like those held at JPL will permit
Japan and Russia who have little previous experience in radio
interferometry to establish working relationships with the radio
astronomy communities that will be vital during the complex
observations required by the Space VLBI project
One of our main activities is developing the methodology
for international coordination because the two spacecraft
simultaneously rely on the corresponding tracking stations while
using the groundbased radio telescopes to observe the same
celestial objects said Smith
Three new tracking antennas are being built at DSN
facilities and other three other tracking facilities located in
Japan Russia and Green Bank WVa This global network of
groundbased radio telescopes will use precision clocks and
highspeed recorders to collect observation data and forward the
information to a correlator located at the National Radio
Astronomy Observatory in Socorro NM The correlator will
combine and process data then make it available to mission
investigators in Moscow Tokyo and JPL via electronic mail
Smith is optimistic that the massive radio telescope created
by the Space VLBI network will provide radio astronomers with
better resolution than has ever been achieved before by
groundbased radio telescopes allowing astronomers to take a
closer look at distant objects in space
There is a long history of radio astronomy using
groundbased telescopes said Smith What we intend to do is to
extend radio astronomy into Earth orbit Our goal is to look
deeper into the cores of galactic nuclei quasars and other
active radio sources to understand what drives those things we
have seen so far with radio astronomy
Smith noted that if one examines the active galactic
nuclei youll find jets appearing to spew at speeds greater than
light and at energy levels that are millions of times greater
than you would expect
He said some astronomers believe that black holes may be
located in the cores of these galaxies and that they may fuel
the jets Smith hopes that by using Space VLBI to look further
into the cores this theory may be supported or disproved
Russian spaceflight hardware including transponders and
transmitters are now being tested in the United States and
Japanese hardware is scheduled to arrive for testing later this
year Analysis of this hardware will permit US scientists and
engineers to understand how to modify the highspeed VLBA
Correlator operating at the NRAO in order to accommodate the odd
data patterns that will originate from the more than 20
groundbased radio telescopes involved in Space VLBI
Smith is particularly pleased that meetings with the
Japanese and Russian space agency officials like those held at
JPL in March have proceeded smoothly Yet he knows that the
political uncertainty in Russia could jeopardize that countrys
participation in the project
Nothing is ever smooth he said but the Russians have
been incredibly open with us We always anticipated some
likelihood that we will not succeed because of political factors
beyond our control yet there tends to be a way of keeping these
things going because scientists on both sides are trying hard
and people recognize the value of cooperation at this level
Smith points out that the Japanese space agency has more at
stake than just fulfilling an international commitment to a
science mission
The Japanese have been extremely cooperative since
international cooperation is essential to their science mission
he said
But Smith also noted that Japanese space agency officials
look at the US Space VLBI mission as an opportunity to showcase
the technology involved with VSOP spacecraft and their highly
regarded Mach V launch vehicle
Yet regardless of the risks involved in undertaking such an
ambitious project JPLs Smith is satisfied that planning for the
Space VLBI Project is beyond the significant financial and
political hurdles that otherwise might threaten the project
Fortunately we have the virtue of having two partners and
if either falls out we would still have something with the
other By themselves both spacecraft are independent
scientifically exciting missions
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos The aweto from New Zealand
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 is part caterpillar and
_____ _ _____ part vegetable
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 16
Keith M. Ryan (kmr4@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
:
: Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence. If you state that
: one of the books in your room is blue, I certainly do not need as much
: evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed
: leapard in your bed. [ and I don't mean a male lover in a leotard! ]
Keith,
If the issue is, "What is Truth" then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent. If the issue is, "What are the consequences
if such and such -is- True", then Truth is irrelevent. Which is it to
be?
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Gospel Dating
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 16
Keith M Ryan kmr4poCWRUedu wrote
Wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence If you state that
one of the books in your room is blue I certainly do not need as much
evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed
leapard in your bed [ and I dont mean a male lover in a leotard ]
Keith
If the issue is What is Truth then the consequences of whatever
proposition argued is irrelevent If the issue is What are the consequences
if such and such is True then Truth is irrelevent Which is it to
be
Bill
preprocess doc From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: University of Rochester
Lines: 38
In article <1993Apr20.152819.28186@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
> be the site of major commercial activity. As far as we know it has no
> materials we can't get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
> and comets, aside from the semi-mythic He3 that *might* be useful in low
> grade fusion reactors.
I don't know what a "low grade" fusion reactor is, but the major
problem with 3He (aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work) is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small -- on the order of 5 ppb or so, on average (more in some
fractions, but still very small). Massive amounts of regolith would
have to be processed.
This thread reminds me of Wingo's claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth. As I recall, Wingo wasn't
content with being assured that titanium (at .5% in the Earth's crust,
average) would not run out, and touted lunar mines, even though the
market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around $.06/pound.
This prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources.
On the moon, titanium occurs in basalts; "high-Ti" basalts (Apollo 11
and 17) have 8-14% titanium dioxide (by weight). This is nice, but...
terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in
titanium. They very often have 3% TiO2, frequently have 4%, and
sometimes even 5% TiO2 (again, by weight). These flood basalts are
*enormous* -- millions of cubic kilometers, scattered all over the
world (Siberia, Brazil, the NW United States, Ethiopia, etc.). If
even 1% of the basalts are 5% TiO2, this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 2-3 less than in lunar high-Ti
basalts. It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore (never mind the richer, but less common, terrestrial ores being
mined today).
Paul F. Dietz
dietz@cs.rochester.edu
after prepro From dietzcsrochesteredu Paul Dietz
Subject Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization University of Rochester
Lines 38
In article 1993Apr2015281928186ke4zvuucp garyke4zvUUCP Gary Coffman writes
be the site of major commercial activity As far as we know it has no
materials we cant get cheaper right here on Earth or from asteroids
and comets aside from the semimythic He3 that might be useful in low
grade fusion reactors
I dont know what a low grade fusion reactor is but the major
problem with 3He aside from the difficulty in making any fusion
reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so
small on the order of 5 ppb or so on average more in some
fractions but still very small Massive amounts of regolith would
have to be processed
This thread reminds me of Wingos claims some time ago about the moon
as a source of titanium for use on earth As I recall Wingo wasnt
content with being assured that titanium at 5 in the Earths crust
average would not run out and touted lunar mines even though the
market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around 06pound
This prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources
On the moon titanium occurs in basalts highTi basalts Apollo 11
and 17 have 814 titanium dioxide by weight This is nice but
terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in
titanium They very often have 3 TiO2 frequently have 4 and
sometimes even 5 TiO2 again by weight These flood basalts are
enormous millions of cubic kilometers scattered all over the
world Siberia Brazil the NW United States Ethiopia etc If
even 1 of the basalts are 5 TiO2 this is trillions of tons of TiO2
at concentrations only a factor of 23 less than in lunar highTi
basalts It is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon
could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the
ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being
mined today
Paul F Dietz
dietzcsrochesteredu
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Organization: sgi
Lines: 16
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1993Apr3.153552.4334@mac.cc.macalstr.edu>, acooper@mac.cc.macalstr.edu writes:
|> In article <1pint5$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes
>
> Well, Germany was hardly the ONLY country to discriminate against the
> Jews, although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job
> of expressing a general European dislike of them. This should not turn
> into a debate on antisemitism, but you should also point out that Luther's
> antiSemitism was based on religious grounds, while Hitler's was on racial
> grounds, and Wagnmer's on aesthetic grounds. Just blanketing the whole
> group is poor analysis, even if they all are bigots.
I find these to be intriguing remarks. Could you give us a bit
more explanation here? For example, which religion is anti-semitic,
and which aesthetic?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Organization sgi
Lines 16
NNTPPostingHost solntzewpdsgicom
In article 1993Apr31535524334macccmacalstredu acoopermacccmacalstredu writes
In article 1pint51l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Well Germany was hardly the ONLY country to discriminate against the
Jews although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job
of expressing a general European dislike of them This should not turn
into a debate on antisemitism but you should also point out that Luthers
antiSemitism was based on religious grounds while Hitlers was on racial
grounds and Wagnmers on aesthetic grounds Just blanketing the whole
group is poor analysis even if they all are bigots
I find these to be intriguing remarks Could you give us a bit
more explanation here For example which religion is antisemitic
and which aesthetic
jon
preprocess doc From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: japanese moon landing?
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 21
In article <1qnb9tINN7ff@rave.larc.nasa.gov> C.O.EGALON@LARC.NASA.GOV (CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON) writes:
>> there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit
>
>Is it right??? That is new stuff for me. So it means that you just can
>not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its
>orbit will be unstable??? If so, what is the reason??? Is that because
>the combined gravitacional atraction of the Sun,Moon and Earth
>that does not provide a stable orbit around the Moon???
Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections, and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months. The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days. It is *possible* that there are stable orbits here and there --
the Moon's gravitational field is poorly mapped -- but we know of none.
Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes. The big problem is that the Moon's own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon.
--
All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
- Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
after prepro From henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer
Subject Re japanese moon landing
Organization U of Toronto Zoology
Lines 21
In article 1qnb9tINN7ffravelarcnasagov COEGALONLARCNASAGOV CLAUDIO OLIVEIRA EGALON writes
there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit
Is it right That is new stuff for me So it means that you just can
not put a sattellite around around the Moon for too long because its
orbit will be unstable If so what is the reason Is that because
the combined gravitacional atraction of the SunMoon and Earth
that does not provide a stable orbit around the Moon
Any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections and when
its fuel runs out it will crash within months The orbits of the Apollo
motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few
days It is possible that there are stable orbits here and there
the Moons gravitational field is poorly mapped but we know of none
Perturbations from Sun and Earth are relatively minor issues at low
altitudes The big problem is that the Moons own gravitational field
is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the Moon
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
preprocess doc From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Subject: Re: Radical Agnostic... NOT!
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 51
[reply to zazen@austin.ibm.com (E. H. Welbon)]
>>> There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
>>>that a god does not exist (but if anyone has one, by all means, tell me
>>>what it is). Therefore, lacking this ability of absolute proof, being an
>>>atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself, and this I cannot accept.
>>> I accept nothing on blind faith.
>>Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns! Need I say more?
>...I harbor no beliefs at all, there is no good evidence for god
>existing or not. Some folks call this agnosticism. It does not suffer
>from "blind faith" at all. I think of it as "Don't worry, be happy".
For many atheists, the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration: what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing? There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods, nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist. Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith. Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence. It is a reliable way of knowing?
There is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence
of any possibility of proof. Even when we agree to take someone elses
word "on faith", we just mean that having found this person to be
reliable in the past, we judge him likely to be a reliable source now.
If we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence
everywhere else, why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about
gods?
The difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then
one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing,
rather than, as some agnostic posters would have it, whether ones faith
is in gods or no gods. The theist believes that faith is an acceptable
basis for a belief in gods, even if he rejects faith as reliable at
other times, for example in his work as a scientist. The atheist
believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable
knowledge. Agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than
theism or atheism, unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other
knowledge. Without evidence, why should we believe in gods rather than
Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?
I would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn't
require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods. I don't believe that
there is any such thing as absolute knowledge. Atheism is the best and
simplest theory to fit the (lack of) facts and so should be held until
contrary evidence is found.
David Nye (nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu). Midelfort Clinic, Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd; but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities. -- Bertrand Russell
after prepro From nyedacnsvaxuwecedu David Nye
Subject Re Radical Agnostic NOT
Organization University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines 51
[reply to zazenaustinibmcom E H Welbon]
There is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt
that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me
what it is Therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an
atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this I cannot accept
I accept nothing on blind faith
Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns Need I say more
I harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god
existing or not Some folks call this agnosticism It does not suffer
from blind faith at all I think of it as Dont worry be happy
For many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an
epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of
knowing There are no known valid logical arguments for the existence
of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist Most
philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that
must be accepted on faith Faith is belief without a sound logical
basis or empirical evidence It is a reliable way of knowing
There is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence
of any possibility of proof Even when we agree to take someone elses
word on faith we just mean that having found this person to be
reliable in the past we judge him likely to be a reliable source now
If we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence
everywhere else why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about
gods
The difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then
one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing
rather than as some agnostic posters would have it whether ones faith
is in gods or no gods The theist believes that faith is an acceptable
basis for a belief in gods even if he rejects faith as reliable at
other times for example in his work as a scientist The atheist
believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable
knowledge Agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than
theism or atheism unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other
knowledge Without evidence why should we believe in gods rather than
Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny
I would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesnt
require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods I dont believe that
there is any such thing as absolute knowledge Atheism is the best and
simplest theory to fit the lack of facts and so should be held until
contrary evidence is found
David Nye nyedacnsvaxuwecedu Midelfort Clinic Eau Claire WI
This is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher
must learn not to be frightened by absurdities Bertrand Russell
preprocess doc From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 42
mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus) writes:
>cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
>> All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year
>> moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
>>development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
>> Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.
>> But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
>> realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.
>> Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of
>> today?
> The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
>and-civilized areas are obvious. Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
>The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
>transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery.
Lindbergh's flight took place in '27, not the thirties.
>It didn't require gov't to
>fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
>at the destination. In practice, some were gov't funded, some were private.
Could you give examples of privately funded ones?
>But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
>of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
Your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies. However, the
concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons, I
suspect. I'm not aware that Mr Orteig received any significant economic
benefit from Lindbergh's flight. Modern analogies, such as the prize for a
human powered helicopter face similar arguments. There is little economic
benefit in such a thing. The advantage comes in the new approaches developed
and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the
equivalent amount of direct investment would. A person who puts up $ X billion
for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done
than because they expect to make money off the deal.
--
Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
"Find a way or make one."
-attributed to Hannibal
after prepro From jbh55289uxacsouiucedu Josh Hopkins
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 42
mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus writes
cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year
moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers
But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
realize that much more was at stake than 25000
Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of
today
The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery
Lindberghs flight took place in 27 not the thirties
It didnt require govt to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination In practice some were govt funded some were private
Could you give examples of privately funded ones
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff
Your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies However the
concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons I
suspect Im not aware that Mr Orteig received any significant economic
benefit from Lindberghs flight Modern analogies such as the prize for a
human powered helicopter face similar arguments There is little economic
benefit in such a thing The advantage comes in the new approaches developed
and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the
equivalent amount of direct investment would A person who puts up X billion
for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done
than because they expect to make money off the deal
Josh Hopkins jbh55289uxacsouiucedu
Find a way or make one
attributed to Hannibal
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Proton/Centaur?
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <1993Apr20.211638.168730@zeus.calpoly.edu> jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes:
>Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a Proton/Centaur combo?
I don't know a whole lot on Proton, but given that it is a multi stage
rocket, up to 4 stages, it may not really need the Centaur, plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur.
Also, the centaur is not small, unless the Proton has an oversize
shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it.
Dennis, you know much about this?
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re ProtonCentaur
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 15
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 1993Apr20211638168730zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Has anyone looked into the possiblity of a ProtonCentaur combo
I dont know a whole lot on Proton but given that it is a multi stage
rocket up to 4 stages it may not really need the Centaur plus
it may end up seriously beating on said centaur
Also the centaur is not small unless the Proton has an oversize
shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it
Dennis you know much about this
pat
preprocess doc From: isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (Isaac Kuo)
Subject: Re: Abyss--breathing fluids
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: skippy.berkeley.edu
Are breathable liquids possible?
I remember seeing an old Nova or The Nature of Things where this idea was
touched upon (it might have been some other TV show). If nothing else, I know
such liquids ARE possible because...
They showed a large glass full of this liquid, and put a white mouse (rat?) in
it. Since the liquid was not dense, the mouse would float, so it was held down
by tongs clutching its tail. The thing struggled quite a bit, but it was
certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid. It never
did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top.
Now, this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations, but it certainly
shows breathable liquids can be made.
--
*Isaac Kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu) * ___
* * _____/_o_\_____
* Twinkle, twinkle, little .sig, *(==(/_______\)==)
* Keep it less than 5 lines big. * \==\/ \/==/
after prepro From isaackuoskippyberkeleyedu Isaac Kuo
Subject Re Abyssbreathing fluids
Organization UC Berkeley Math Department
Lines 19
NNTPPostingHost skippyberkeleyedu
Are breathable liquids possible
I remember seeing an old Nova or The Nature of Things where this idea was
touched upon it might have been some other TV show If nothing else I know
such liquids ARE possible because
They showed a large glass full of this liquid and put a white mouse rat in
it Since the liquid was not dense the mouse would float so it was held down
by tongs clutching its tail The thing struggled quite a bit but it was
certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid It never
did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top
Now this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations but it certainly
shows breathable liquids can be made
Isaac Kuo isaackuomathberkeleyedu ___
______o_\_____
Twinkle twinkle little sig _______\
Keep it less than 5 lines big \\ \
preprocess doc From: kpa@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Karl Anderson)
Subject: Re: A WRENCH in the works?
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Nntp-Posting-Host: oslo.rchland.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Rochester
Lines: 42
From another space forum
> NOW WHERE DID I LEAVE THOSE PLIERS?
When workers at the Kennedy Space Center disassembled the STS-56
solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers
lodged into the outside base of the right hand SRB. The tool survived
the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a 250,000 foot
altitude, then down to splashdown and towing back to KSC.
NASA spokesperson Lisa Malone told the media,
"It's been a long time since something like this happened. We've
lost washers and bolts (before) but never a tool like this."
The initial investigation into the incident has shown that a
Thiokol Corp. technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on
April 2nd. Unfortunately, the worker's supervisor did not act on the
report and Discovery was launched with its "extra payload". NASA
officials were never told of the missing tool before the April 8th
launch date.
The free-flying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the SRB
technician. When the tool was found in an aft section of the booster,
its 18-inch long rope was still attached. The pliers were found in a
part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad.
|(Ron's ed. note: naaahhh, just too easy)
A spokesperson for the Lockheed Space Operations Company said that
the Shuttle processor will take "appropriate action". Thiokol is a
subcontractor to LSOC for work to prepare Shuttle hardware for launch.
_________________________________________________________
Karl Anderson
DEV/2000: Configuration Management/Version Control
Dept 53K/006-2 Rochester, Minnesota 55901
253-8044 Tie 8-453-8044
INTERNET: karl@vnet.ibm.com
PRODIGY: CMMG96A
"To seek, to strive, to find, and not to yield."
Alfred Lord Tennyson
after prepro From kparchlandvnetibmcom Karl Anderson
Subject Re A WRENCH in the works
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not necessarily those of IBM
NntpPostingHost oslorchlandibmcom
Organization IBM Rochester
Lines 42
From another space forum
NOW WHERE DID I LEAVE THOSE PLIERS
When workers at the Kennedy Space Center disassembled the STS56
solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers
lodged into the outside base of the right hand SRB The tool survived
the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a 250000 foot
altitude then down to splashdown and towing back to KSC
NASA spokesperson Lisa Malone told the media
Its been a long time since something like this happened Weve
lost washers and bolts before but never a tool like this
The initial investigation into the incident has shown that a
Thiokol Corp technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on
April 2nd Unfortunately the workers supervisor did not act on the
report and Discovery was launched with its extra payload NASA
officials were never told of the missing tool before the April 8th
launch date
The freeflying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the SRB
technician When the tool was found in an aft section of the booster
its 18inch long rope was still attached The pliers were found in a
part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad
Rons ed note naaahhh just too easy
A spokesperson for the Lockheed Space Operations Company said that
the Shuttle processor will take appropriate action Thiokol is a
subcontractor to LSOC for work to prepare Shuttle hardware for launch
_________________________________________________________
Karl Anderson
DEV2000 Configuration ManagementVersion Control
Dept 53K0062 Rochester Minnesota 55901
2538044 Tie 84538044
INTERNET karlvnetibmcom
PRODIGY CMMG96A
To seek to strive to find and not to yield
Alfred Lord Tennyson
preprocess doc From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Dreams and Degrees (was Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines: 47
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov
In article <C5xp0K.G79@brunel.ac.uk>, mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
> <1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>> Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
>>and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
>>that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
>>dreams all the knowledge is worthless..
>
> Oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh?
>
> The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
> pernicious fallacys of the New Age. Michael, thanks for the generous
> offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you.
Well said.
> You, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by
> failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here)
> which would give your imagination wings.
>
> Just to show this isn't a flame, I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of
> the Body Snatchers_:
>
> "Become one of us; it's not so bad, you know"
Okay, Del, so Michael was being unfair, but you are being unfair back.
He is taking college courses now, I presume he is studying hard, and
his postings reveal that he is *somewhat* hip to the technical issues
of astronautics. Plus, he is attentively following the erudite
discourse of the Big Brains who post to sci.space; is it not
inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from
reading the likes of you and me? [1]
Like others involved in sci.space, Mr. Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture, and I think he's soaking it up
fast. I was a young guy with dreams once, and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up. Too bad I wound up in an
assembly-line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day...
(-:
[1] Though rumors persist that Del and I are both pseudonyms of Fred
McCall.
Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey | "We'll see you
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory | at White Sands in June.
Bitnet: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET | You bring your view-graphs,
Internet: HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV | and I'll bring my rocketship."
SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS | --Col. Pete Worden on the DC-X
after prepro From higginsfnalffnalgov Bill Higgins Beam Jockey
Subject Dreams and Degrees was Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Lines 47
NNTPPostingHost fnalffnalgov
In article mt90dacbrunelacuk Del Cotter writes
1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless
Oh and us with the big degrees dont got imagination huh
The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age Michael thanks for the generous
offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you
Well said
You on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the mathsthermodynamicschemistryyour choices here
which would give your imagination wings
Just to show this isnt a flame I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of
the Body Snatchers_
Become one of us its not so bad you know
Okay Del so Michael was being unfair but you are being unfair back
He is taking college courses now I presume he is studying hard and
his postings reveal that he is somewhat hip to the technical issues
of astronautics Plus he is attentively following the erudite
discourse of the Big Brains who post to scispace is it not
inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from
reading the likes of you and me [1]
Like others involved in scispace Mr Adams shows symptoms of being a
fledgling member of the technoculture and I think hes soaking it up
fast I was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a
technical education to follow them up Too bad I wound up in an
assemblyline job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day
[1] Though rumors persist that Del and I are both pseudonyms of Fred
McCall
Bill Higgins Beam Jockey Well see you
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory at White Sands in June
Bitnet HIGGINSFNALBITNET You bring your viewgraphs
Internet HIGGINSFNALFNALGOV and Ill bring my rocketship
SPANHepnet 43011HIGGINS Col Pete Worden on the DCX
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Contradictions
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 49
In article <C52oys.2CLJ@austin.ibm.com> yoder@austin.ibm.com (Stuart R. Yoder) writes:
>:
>: Then what would it have to do with "in the universe"? You theists
>: cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe
>: are two different places. Put God outside the universe and you
>: subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the
>: universe, put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of
>: physics on it.
>
>1. God is outside the universe.
>2. Things outside the universe do not have 'the ability to interact
> with the inside of the universe'.
>3. Therefore God cannot interact inside the universe.
>
>(2) has no basis whatsoever. You seem to have positive knowledge
>about this.
(2) is a corrallary of (1).
The negation of (2) would contridict (1).
>
>: Although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules
>: governing the inside of the universe, we expect that there are no
>: contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics.
>: On the other hand, your notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and
>: infinitely benevolent god, is not subject to physical laws: you
>: attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of
>: them, beyond measurement. To me, beyond measurement means it can
>: have no measurable effect on reality, so it cannot interact: ergo,
>: your god is IRRELEVANT.
>
>1. God is beyond measure.
>2. Beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on
> reality.
>3. Therefore God cannot have a measurable effect on reality.
>
>(2) has no basis whatsoever.
(2) Is a corrallary of (1)
The negation of (2) would contradict (1).
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Contradictions
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 49
In article yoderaustinibmcom Stuart R Yoder writes
Then what would it have to do with in the universe You theists
cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe
are two different places Put God outside the universe and you
subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the
universe put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of
physics on it
1 God is outside the universe
2 Things outside the universe do not have the ability to interact
with the inside of the universe
3 Therefore God cannot interact inside the universe
2 has no basis whatsoever You seem to have positive knowledge
about this
2 is a corrallary of 1
The negation of 2 would contridict 1
Although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules
governing the inside of the universe we expect that there are no
contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics
On the other hand your notion of an omnipotent omniscient and
infinitely benevolent god is not subject to physical laws you
attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of
them beyond measurement To me beyond measurement means it can
have no measurable effect on reality so it cannot interact ergo
your god is IRRELEVANT
1 God is beyond measure
2 Beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on
reality
3 Therefore God cannot have a measurable effect on reality
2 has no basis whatsoever
2 Is a corrallary of 1
The negation of 2 would contradict 1
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: rjungcla@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (R. M. Jungclas)
Subject: Re: Big amateur rockets
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville, IL.
Distribution: usa
Lines: 48
In article <C5Ky9y.MKK@raistlin.udev.cdc.com> pbd@runyon.cim.cdc.com (Paul Dokas) writes:
>I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
>the back. I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
>science or questionablely legal, but this one really grabbed my attention.
>It was from a company name "Personal Missle, Inc." or something like that.
>
>Anyhow, the ad stated that they'd sell rockets that were up to 20' in length
>and engines of sizes "F" to "M". They also said that some rockets will
>reach 50,000 feet.
>
>Now, aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
>of these beasts, isn't this illegal? I can't imagine the FAA allowing
>people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes.
>Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down.
>
>And no, I'm not going to even think of buying one. I'm not that crazy.
>
>
>-Paul "mine'll do 50,000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite" Dokas
Could it be Public Missile, Inc in Michigan?
From the description of ad here, it sounds like they're talking about
"High Power Rocketry", an outgrowth of model rocketry. This hobby
uses non-metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P. The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular.
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry.
Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 3.3 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater, REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch.
Typically, a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time (ie week, weekend, etc.) at a designated site and time, and
all of the launches are then covered under this "blanket waiver".
There is also a "High Power Safety Code" which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size, etc.
Finally, in order to purchase any of the larger (Class B) rocket
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association. Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and "safe" flight at a total impulse
level.
For more information, watch rec.models.rockets newsgroup.
R. Michael Jungclas UUCP: att!ihlpb!rjungcla
AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville, IL. Internet: rjungcla@ihlpb.att.com
after prepro From rjungclacbnewsdcbattcom R M Jungclas
Subject Re Big amateur rockets
Organization ATT Bell Labs Naperville IL
Distribution usa
Lines 48
In article pbdrunyoncimcdccom Paul Dokas writes
I was reading Popular Science this morning and was surprised by an ad in
the back I know that a lot of the ads in the back of PS are fringe
science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention
It was from a company name Personal Missle Inc or something like that
Anyhow the ad stated that theyd sell rockets that were up to 20 in length
and engines of sizes F to M They also said that some rockets will
reach 50000 feet
Now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one
of these beasts isnt this illegal I cant imagine the FAA allowing
people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes
Not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down
And no Im not going to even think of buying one Im not that crazy
Paul minell do 50000 feet and carries 50 pounds of dynamite Dokas
Could it be Public Missile Inc in Michigan
From the description of ad here it sounds like theyre talking about
High Power Rocketry an outgrowth of model rocketry This hobby
uses nonmetallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured
engines ranging in impulse classification from G to P The hobby
has been flourishing from early 1980s and is becoming increasing popular
Technically this is not consider amateur rocketry
Any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than 33 pounds OR using a
total impulse of G or greater REQUIRES an FAA waiver to launch
Typically a group of people get an FAA waiver for specified period
of time ie week weekend etc at a designated site and time and
all of the launches are then covered under this blanket waiver
There is also a High Power Safety Code which designates more
specific rules such as launch field size etc
Finally in order to purchase any of the larger Class B rocket
motors you need to certified through either the National Association
of Rocketry or Tripoli Rocketry Association Certification procedures
require a demonstarted handling and safe flight at a total impulse
level
For more information watch recmodelsrockets newsgroup
R Michael Jungclas UUCP attihlpbrjungcla
ATT Bell Labs Naperville IL Internet rjungclaihlpbattcom
preprocess doc From: agae@palm.lle.rochester.edu (Andres C. Gaeris)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Reply-To: agae@palm.lle.rochester.edu (Andres C. Gaeris)
Organization: UofR Laboratory for Laser Energetics
Lines: 17
Nntp-Posting-Host: palm.lle.rochester.edu
In article <1993Apr20.164655.11048@head-cfa.harvard.edu>, willner@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Steve Willner) writes:
>
> The NASM photo archives are open to the public. All (or almost all)
> still pictures in the collection are available for viewing, but I
> don't know about films. At least it might be worth a try. I'm not
> sure if appointments are necessary, but I think not.
>
Is posible to make copies of these photographs (or any other aerospace
photographs at NASM) if you pay a copyright fee?
===============================================================================
Andres C. Gaeris || "Living example of the application of Newton's
Junior laser fusioneer || Zeroth Law:
agae@lle.rochester.edu || `Every body in rest wants to remain in bed'"
===============================================================================
after prepro From agaepalmllerochesteredu Andres C Gaeris
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
ReplyTo agaepalmllerochesteredu Andres C Gaeris
Organization UofR Laboratory for Laser Energetics
Lines 17
NntpPostingHost palmllerochesteredu
In article 1993Apr2016465511048headcfaharvardedu willnerheadcfaharvardedu Steve Willner writes
The NASM photo archives are open to the public All or almost all
still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but I
dont know about films At least it might be worth a try Im not
sure if appointments are necessary but I think not
Is posible to make copies of these photographs or any other aerospace
photographs at NASM if you pay a copyright fee
Andres C Gaeris Living example of the application of Newtons
Junior laser fusioneer Zeroth Law
agaellerochesteredu `Every body in rest wants to remain in bed
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 8
The only ether I see here is the stuff you must
have been breathing before you posted...
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl02cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 8
The only ether I see here is the stuff you must
have been breathing before you posted
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: rlennip4@mach1.wlu.ca (robert lennips 9209 U)
Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Lines: 2
Please get a REAL life.
after prepro From rlennip4mach1wluca robert lennips 9209 U
Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Organization Wilfrid Laurier University
Lines 2
Please get a REAL life
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 20
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <115686@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>No, I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
>belonging to the religion when event being judged applies. This
Who does the categorizing?
---
" I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling "Traditional Family Values."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 20
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 115686buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
No I say religious law applies to those who are categorized as
belonging to the religion when event being judged applies This
Who does the categorizing
Id Cheat on Hillary Too
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling Traditional Family Values
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 35
In article <1993Apr15.135650.28926@st-andrews.ac.uk> nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson) writes:
>I don't think you're right about Germany. My daughter was born there and
>I don't think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there (beyond the
>rights of all EC citizens). She is a British citizen by virtue of
>her parentage, but that's not "full" citizenship. For example, I don't think
>her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way.
I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it. It might require immigration to Germany, but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case.
>More interesting is your sentence,
>>In fact, many people try to come to the US to have their children
>>born here so that they will have some human rights.
>How does the US compare to an Islamic country in this respect? Do people
>go to Iran so their children will have some human rights? Would you?
More interesting only for your propaganda purposes. I have said several
times now that I don't consider Iran particularly exemplary as a good
Islamic state. We might talk about the rights of people in "capitalist
secular" third world countries to give other examples of the lack of
rights in third world countries broadly. Say, for example, Central
American secular capitalist countries whose govt's the US supports
but who Amnesty International has pointed out are human rights vacua.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 35
In article 1993Apr1513565028926standrewsacuk nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson writes
I dont think youre right about Germany My daughter was born there and
I dont think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there beyond the
rights of all EC citizens She is a British citizen by virtue of
her parentage but thats not full citizenship For example I dont think
her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way
I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it It might require immigration to Germany but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case
More interesting is your sentence
In fact many people try to come to the US to have their children
born here so that they will have some human rights
How does the US compare to an Islamic country in this respect Do people
go to Iran so their children will have some human rights Would you
More interesting only for your propaganda purposes I have said several
times now that I dont consider Iran particularly exemplary as a good
Islamic state We might talk about the rights of people in capitalist
secular third world countries to give other examples of the lack of
rights in third world countries broadly Say for example Central
American secular capitalist countries whose govts the US supports
but who Amnesty International has pointed out are human rights vacua
Gregg
preprocess doc From: tholen@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen)
Subject: Re: New planet/Kuiper object found?
Organization: University of Hawaii
Distribution: sci
Lines: 18
Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues writes:
> Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object,
> beyond Pluto's orbit, was found by an observatory at Hawaii. They
> named the object Karla.
The name is a working name only; quite unofficial. The formal designation
is 1993 FW.
> The program said the object wasn't a gaseous giant planet, and
> should be composed by rocks and ices.
>
> Can someone confirm these information? Could this object be a
> new planet or a Kuiper object?
It's most likely a Kuiper Belt object, with an estimated diameter of
290 km. The orbit hasn't been determined well enough yet to say much
more about it.
after prepro From tholengalileoifahawaiiedu Dave Tholen
Subject Re New planetKuiper object found
Organization University of Hawaii
Distribution sci
Lines 18
Francisco da Fonseca Rodrigues writes
Tonigth a TV journal here in Brasil announced that an object
beyond Plutos orbit was found by an observatory at Hawaii They
named the object Karla
The name is a working name only quite unofficial The formal designation
is 1993 FW
The program said the object wasnt a gaseous giant planet and
should be composed by rocks and ices
Can someone confirm these information Could this object be a
new planet or a Kuiper object
Its most likely a Kuiper Belt object with an estimated diameter of
290 km The orbit hasnt been determined well enough yet to say much
more about it
preprocess doc From: tom@igc.apc.org
Subject: computer cult
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1469100033:000:2451
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!tom Apr 24 09:26:00 1993
Lines: 59
From: <tom>
Subject: computer cult
From scott Fri Apr 23 16:31:21 1993
Received: by igc.apc.org (4.1/Revision: 1.77 )
id AA16121; Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:31:09 PDT
Message-Id: <9304232331.AA16121@igc.apc.org>
From: Scott Weikart <scott>
Sender: scott
To: cdplist
Subject: Next stand-off?
Status: R
Redwood City, CA (API) -- A tense stand-off entered its third week
today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with
charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs.
Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound, but
some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside
have been terminated. Others claim to be staying of their own free
will, but Jobs' persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm.
In conversations with authorities, Jobs has given conflicting
information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the
industry. At times, he has claimed to "have hardware which will blow
anything else away", while more recently he claims they have stopped
manufacturing their own.
Agents from the ATF (Apple-Taligent Forces) believe that the group is
equipped with serious hardware, including 486-caliber pieces and
possibly Canon equipment.
The siege has attracted a variety of spectators, from the curious to
other cultists. Some have offered to intercede in negotiations,
including a young man who will identify himself only as "Bill" and
claims to be the "MS-iah".
Former members of the cult, some only recently deprogrammed, speak
hesitantly of their former lives, including being forced to work
20-hour days, and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies. There were
frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of
"interpersonal computing" which rejects traditional roles.
Late-night vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on
federal marshals. Loud rock and roll, mostly Talking Heads, blares
throughout the night. Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own
apocalyptic prophecies, a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers
carry Jobs' own speeches -- typically beginning with a chilling "I
want to welcome you to the 'Next World' ".
- - --
Roland J. Schemers III | Networking Systems
Systems Programmer | G16 Redwood Hall (415) 723-6740
Distributed Computing Group | Stanford, CA 94305-4122
Stanford University | schemers@Slapshot.Stanford.EDU
after prepro From tomigcapcorg
Subject computer cult
NfID Ncdp14691000330002451
NfFrom cdpUUCPtom Apr 24 092600 1993
Lines 59
From
Subject computer cult
From scott Fri Apr 23 163121 1993
Received by igcapcorg 41Revision 177
id AA16121 Fri 23 Apr 93 163109 PDT
Date Fri 23 Apr 93 163109 PDT
MessageId 9304232331AA16121igcapcorg
From Scott Weikart
Sender scott
To cdplist
Subject Next standoff
Status R
Redwood City CA API A tense standoff entered its third week
today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with
charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs
Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound but
some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside
have been terminated Others claim to be staying of their own free
will but Jobs persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm
In conversations with authorities Jobs has given conflicting
information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the
industry At times he has claimed to have hardware which will blow
anything else away while more recently he claims they have stopped
manufacturing their own
Agents from the ATF AppleTaligent Forces believe that the group is
equipped with serious hardware including 486caliber pieces and
possibly Canon equipment
The siege has attracted a variety of spectators from the curious to
other cultists Some have offered to intercede in negotiations
including a young man who will identify himself only as Bill and
claims to be the MSiah
Former members of the cult some only recently deprogrammed speak
hesitantly of their former lives including being forced to work
20hour days and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies There were
frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of
interpersonal computing which rejects traditional roles
Latenight vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on
federal marshals Loud rock and roll mostly Talking Heads blares
throughout the night Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own
apocalyptic prophecies a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers
carry Jobs own speeches typically beginning with a chilling I
want to welcome you to the Next World
Roland J Schemers III Networking Systems
Systems Programmer G16 Redwood Hall 415 7236740
Distributed Computing Group Stanford CA 943054122
Stanford University schemersSlapshotStanfordEDU
preprocess doc From: mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter)
Subject: Re: Crazy? or just Imaginitive?
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK
Lines: 26
<1993Apr21.205403.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes:
>So some of my ideas are a bit odd, off the wall and such, but so was Wilbur and
>Orville Wright, and quite a few others.. Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
>and such, but I think (I might be wrong, to error is human) I have something
>that is in many ways just as important, I have imagination, dreams. And without
>dreams all the knowledge is worthless..
Oh, and us with the big degrees don't got imagination, huh?
The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age. Michael, thanks for the generous
offer, but we have quite enough dreams of our own, thank you.
You, on the other hand, are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the maths/thermodynamics/chemistry/(your choices here)
which would give your imagination wings.
Just to show this isn't a flame, I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of
the Body Snatchers_:
"Become one of us; it's not so bad, you know"
--
',' ' ',',' | | ',' ' ',','
', ,',' | Del Cotter mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk | ', ,','
',' | | ','
after prepro From mt90dacbrunelacuk Del Cotter
Subject Re Crazy or just Imaginitive
Organization Brunel University West London UK
Lines 26
1993Apr212054031auroraalaskaedu nsmcaauroraalaskaedu writes
So some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was Wilbur and
Orville Wright and quite a few others Sorry if I do not have the big degrees
and such but I think I might be wrong to error is human I have something
that is in many ways just as important I have imagination dreams And without
dreams all the knowledge is worthless
Oh and us with the big degrees dont got imagination huh
The alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most
pernicious fallacys of the New Age Michael thanks for the generous
offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you
You on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by
failing to get the mathsthermodynamicschemistryyour choices here
which would give your imagination wings
Just to show this isnt a flame I leave you with a quote from _Invasion of
the Body Snatchers_
Become one of us its not so bad you know
Del Cotter mt90dacbrunelacuk
preprocess doc From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: sgi
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com
In article <1qlfd4INN935@gap.caltech.edu>, keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|>
|> >>Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
|> >>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
|> >
|> >So, why "must" they have such laws?
|>
|> The quotation marks should enclose "laws," not "must."
Oh, Your Highness? And exactly why "should" the quotation
marks enclose "laws," not "must."
In case you didn't notice, it's the function of the "must"
that I wish to ironicise.
|>
|> If there were no such rules, even instinctive ones or unwritten ones,
|> etc., then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
|> into chaos.
Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out, and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour, entirely by chance.
Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour?
What about the natural morality of bee dance?
jon.
after prepro From liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
So why must they have such laws
The quotation marks should enclose laws not must
Oh Your Highness And exactly why should the quotation
marks enclose laws not must
In case you didnt notice its the function of the must
that I wish to ironicise
If there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones
etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society
into chaos
Perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour
died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such
behaviour entirely by chance
Are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an
organism evolves cooperative behaviour
What about the natural morality of bee dance
jon
preprocess doc From: jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Lines: 26
Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada
In article <1993Apr19.020359.26996@sq.sq.com>, msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>> > Can these questions be answered for a previous
>> > instance, such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting?
>
>> Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII (from Dance files)
>> p(au) 3.424346
>> e 0.151899
>> i 1.0988
>> cap_omega(0) 243.5652
>> W(0) 231.1607
>> epoch 1977.04110
>
>
>> Also, perihelions of Gehrels3 were:
>>
>> April 1973 83 jupiter radii
>> August 1970 ~3 jupiter radii
>
> Where 1 Jupiter radius = 71,000 km = 44,000 mi = 0.0005 AU. So the
> 1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove.
> Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well?
> --
Sorry, _perijoves_...I'm not used to talking this language.
John Garland
jgarland@kean.ucs.mun.ca
after prepro From jgarlandkeanucsmunca
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Lines 26
Organization Memorial University StJohns Nfld Canada
In article 1993Apr1902035926996sqsqcom msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Can these questions be answered for a previous
instance such as the Gehrels 3 that was mentioned in an earlier posting
Orbital Elements of Comet 1977VII from Dance files
pau 3424346
e 0151899
i 10988
cap_omega0 2435652
W0 2311607
epoch 197704110
Also perihelions of Gehrels3 were
April 1973 83 jupiter radii
August 1970 3 jupiter radii
Where 1 Jupiter radius 71000 km 44000 mi 00005 AU So the
1970 figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove
Is that the case for the 1973 figure as well
Sorry _perijoves_Im not used to talking this language
John Garland
jgarlandkeanucsmunca
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Space Research Spin Off
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 30
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <C50zxA.1K9@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1ppm7j$ip@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes:
|>I thought the area rule was pioneered by Boeing.
|>NASA guys developed the rule, but no-one knew if it worked
|>until Boeing built the hardware 727 and maybe the FB-111?????
|
|Nope. The decisive triumph of the area rule was when Convair's YF-102 --
|contractually commmitted to being a Mach 1.5 fighter and actually found
|to be incapable of going supersonic in level flight -- was turned into
|the area-ruled YF-102A which met the specs. This was well before either
|the 727 or the FB-111; the 102 flew in late 1953, and Convair spent most
|of the first half of 1954 figuring out what went wrong and most of the
|second half building the first 102A.
|--
|All work is one man's work. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
| - Kipling | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there.
I seem to recall, somebody built or at least proposed a wasp waisetd
Passenger civil transport. I thought it was a 727, but maybe it
was a DC- 8,9??? Sure it had a funny passenger compartment,
but on the other hand it seemed to save fuel.
I thought Area rules applied even before transonic speeds, just
not as badly.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Space Research Spin Off
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 30
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1ppm7jipaccessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
I thought the area rule was pioneered by Boeing
NASA guys developed the rule but noone knew if it worked
until Boeing built the hardware 727 and maybe the FB111
Nope The decisive triumph of the area rule was when Convairs YF102
contractually commmitted to being a Mach 15 fighter and actually found
to be incapable of going supersonic in level flight was turned into
the arearuled YF102A which met the specs This was well before either
the 727 or the FB111 the 102 flew in late 1953 and Convair spent most
of the first half of 1954 figuring out what went wrong and most of the
second half building the first 102A
All work is one mans work Henry Spencer U of Toronto Zoology
Kipling henryzootorontoedu utzoohenry
Good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there
I seem to recall somebody built or at least proposed a wasp waisetd
Passenger civil transport I thought it was a 727 but maybe it
was a DC 89 Sure it had a funny passenger compartment
but on the other hand it seemed to save fuel
I thought Area rules applied even before transonic speeds just
not as badly
pat
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 36
In <kmr4.1576.734879396@po.CWRU.edu> kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) writes:
>In article <1qj9gq$mg7@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank
O'Dwyer) writes:
>>Is good logic *better* than bad? Is good science better than bad?
> By definition.
> great - good - okay - bad - horrible
> << better
> worse >>
> Good is defined as being better than bad.
>---
How do we come up with this setup? Is this subjective, if enough people agreed
we could switch the order? Isn't this defining one unknown thing by another?
That is, good is that which is better than bad, and bad is that which is worse
than good? Circular?
MAC
> Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible.
>
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 36
In kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan writes
In article 1qj9gqmg7horusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank
ODwyer writes
Is good logic better than bad Is good science better than bad
By definition
great good okay bad horrible
better
worse
Good is defined as being better than bad
How do we come up with this setup Is this subjective if enough people agreed
we could switch the order Isnt this defining one unknown thing by another
That is good is that which is better than bad and bad is that which is worse
than good Circular
MAC
Only when the Sun starts to orbit the Earth will I accept the Bible
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1ql0ajINN2kj@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>Well, chimps must have some system. They live in social groups
>as we do, so they must have some "laws" dictating undesired behavior.
Why "must"?
---
" Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken. "
John Laws, a man without the honor to keep his given word.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
Well chimps must have some system They live in social groups
as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior
Why must
Whatever promises that have been made can than be broken
John Laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 34
In article <1993Apr15.150938.975@news.wesleyan.edu> SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET) writes:
>In <1qabe7INNaff@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu writes:
>
>>> Chimpanzees fight wars over land.
>>
>> But chimps are almost human...
>>
>> keith
>
>Could it be? This is the last message from Mr. Schneider, and it's
>more than three days old!
>
>Are these his final words? (And how many here would find that
>appropriate?) Or is it just that finals got in the way?
>
No. The christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman
(seems so clandestine, and all that), so they had him removed. Of
course, Keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he
isn't really being persecuted, since (after all) they *are*
feeding him, and any resistance on his part would only be viewed
as trouble making.
I understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed "In God
We Trust" on his forehead, though.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re SSAUYETeaglewesleyanedu SCOTT D SAUYET writes
In 1qabe7INNaffgapcaltechedu keithccocaltechedu writes
Chimpanzees fight wars over land
But chimps are almost human
keith
Could it be This is the last message from Mr Schneider and its
more than three days old
Are these his final words And how many here would find that
appropriate Or is it just that finals got in the way
No The christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman
seems so clandestine and all that so they had him removed Of
course Keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he
isnt really being persecuted since after all they are
feeding him and any resistance on his part would only be viewed
as trouble making
I understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed In God
We Trust on his forehead though
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
Subject: NASA Special Publications for Voyager Mission?
Organization: The MacInteresteds of Nashville, Tn.
Lines: 12
I have two books, both NASA Special Publications, on the Voyager
Missions. One is titled "Voyages to Jupiter" the other "Voyage to Saturn"
These were excellent books put together after the encounters with each
planet.
The question is: Did NASA ever put together a similar book for either the
Uranus encounter or Neptune? If so, what SP number is it and where can it
be obtained? If not, why didn't they?
--
gene@theporch.raider.net (Gene Wright)
theporch.raider.net 615/297-7951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
after prepro From genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
Subject NASA Special Publications for Voyager Mission
Organization The MacInteresteds of Nashville Tn
Lines 12
I have two books both NASA Special Publications on the Voyager
Missions One is titled Voyages to Jupiter the other Voyage to Saturn
These were excellent books put together after the encounters with each
planet
The question is Did NASA ever put together a similar book for either the
Uranus encounter or Neptune If so what SP number is it and where can it
be obtained If not why didnt they
genetheporchraidernet Gene Wright
theporchraidernet 6152977951 The MacInteresteds of Nashville
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie (Re: An Anecdote about Islam
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 19
Distribution: world,public
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <115847@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>Well, in 1984 one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority. One
>_is_ free to leave Islam. If one regards Islamic law as a curse one
>should consider leaving Islam.
The only way out seems to be death.
---
" I'd Cheat on Hillary Too."
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling "Traditional Family Values."
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie Re An Anecdote about Islam
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 19
Distribution worldpublic
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 115847buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
Well in 1984 one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority One
_is_ free to leave Islam If one regards Islamic law as a curse one
should consider leaving Islam
The only way out seems to be death
Id Cheat on Hillary Too
John Laws
Local GOP Reprehensitive
Extolling Traditional Family Values
preprocess doc From: shread@ll.mit.edu ( Peter Shread)
Subject: El Sets
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution: us
Lines: 5
I am looking for a source of orbital element sets
other than UAF/Space Command. I believe there is
one on CompuServe. Please let me know what other
possible sources there are and how I can reach
them. Thanks much.
after prepro From shreadllmitedu Peter Shread
Subject El Sets
Organization MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Distribution us
Lines 5
I am looking for a source of orbital element sets
other than UAFSpace Command I believe there is
one on CompuServe Please let me know what other
possible sources there are and how I can reach
them Thanks much
preprocess doc From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Subject: Level 5?
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization: [via International Space University]
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU
Distribution: sci
Lines: 13
Nick Haines sez;
>(given that I've heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
>maturity, I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case).
Level 5? Out of how many? What are the different levels? I've never
heard of this rating system. Anyone care to clue me in?
-Tommy Mac
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom McWilliams 517-355-2178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases,
18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu 336-9591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro From 18084TMmsuedu Tom
Subject Level 5
XAdded Forwarded by Space Digest
Organization [via International Space University]
OriginalSender isuVACATIONVENARICSCMUEDU
Distribution sci
Lines 13
Nick Haines sez
given that Ive heard the Shuttle software rated as Level 5 in
maturity I strongly doubt that this [having lots of bugs] is the case
Level 5 Out of how many What are the different levels Ive never
heard of this rating system Anyone care to clue me in
Tommy Mac
Tom McWilliams 5173552178 wk \\ As the radius of vision increases
18084tmibmclmsuedu 3369591 hm \\ the circumference of mystery grows
preprocess doc From: jtk@s1.gov (Jordin Kare)
Subject: Re: Inflatable Mile-Long Space Billboards (was Re: Vandalizing the sky.)
Organization: LLNL
Lines: 96
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: s1.gov
yamauchi@ces.cwru.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes:
>enzo@research.canon.oz.au (Enzo Liguori) writes:
>>WHAT'S NEW (in my opinion), Friday, 16 April 1993 Washington, DC
>
>>Now, Space Marketing
>>is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
>>a plan to place a mile-long inflatable billboard in low-earth
>>orbit.
>
>This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of. Does anyone
>know if he's involved?
No. The idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible
near-term commercial space activities. One of the folks involved in those
discussions, a
spacecraft engineer named Preston Carter, passed the suggestion on to
some entreprenurial types, and Mike Lawson is apparently going ahead with
it. Preston is now at LLNL, and is working with Space Marketing on
the sensors that might be carried.
>
>>NASA would provide contractual launch services. However,
>>since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
>>(WN 26 Mar 93) the taxpayers would bear most of the expense.
Actually, that sounds unlikely. I don't know what the launch vehicle
would be, but I would expect it to go on a commercial launcher --
certainly not on the Shuttle -- and the fraction of the cost paid to NASA
for, e.g., launch support would probably
cover NASA's incremental costs pretty well.
>>This
>>may look like environmental vandalism, but Mike Lawson, CEO of
>>Space Marketing, told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
>>project is to help the environment! The platform will carry ozone
>>monitors he explained--advertising is just to help defray costs.
>
>This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people. My
>guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
>build large, inflatable space structures.
No, as noted, LLNL is involved in lightweight sensor design, per
Clementine and related programs. I'm sure folks around here would like to
see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure, but after all,
the U.S. did the Echo satellites long ago, and an advertising structure
would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than Echo was
(or a parade balloon, for that matter).
>
>>..........
>>What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
>>the night sky? It is not even April 1 anymore.
While I happen to personally dislike the idea, mostly because I've got
a background in astronomy, it's hardly vandalism -- it would be a short-lived
intrusion on the night sky, doing no permanent damage and actually hurting
only a small subset of astronomers. On the other hand, it would certainly
draw attention to space.
>
>If this is true, I think it's a great idea.
>
>Learning how to build structures in space in an essential
>step towards space development...
Which, unfortunately, this is not likely to contribute much to.
>If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
>creative use of (partial) private sector funding in the process -- so
>much the better.
>
>>Is NASA really supporting this junk?
As far as I know, it's a purely commercial venture.
>
>And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
>news blip? How serious is this project? Is this just in the "wild
>idea" stage or does it have real funding?
I gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers.
Commercial projects, however, generally don't get "funding" -- they
get "customers" -- whether it will have customers remains to be seen.
>
>>Are protesting groups being organized in the States?
>
>Not yet. Though, if this project goes through, I suppose The Return
>of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable...
Nahh. He's too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in
the sky :-)
>
>Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
>yamauchi@alpha.ces.cwru.edu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
Jordin Kare jtk@s1.gov Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
[These are my personal views only and do not represent official statements
or positions of LLNL, the University of California, or the U.S. DOE.]
after prepro From jtks1gov Jordin Kare
Subject Re Inflatable MileLong Space Billboards was Re Vandalizing the sky
Organization LLNL
Lines 96
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost s1gov
yamauchicescwruedu Brian Yamauchi writes
enzoresearchcanonozau Enzo Liguori writes
WHATS NEW in my opinion Friday 16 April 1993 Washington DC
Now Space Marketing
is working with University of Colorado and Livermore engineers on
a plan to place a milelong inflatable billboard in lowearth
orbit
This sounds like something Lowell Wood would think of Does anyone
know if hes involved
No The idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible
nearterm commercial space activities One of the folks involved in those
discussions a
spacecraft engineer named Preston Carter passed the suggestion on to
some entreprenurial types and Mike Lawson is apparently going ahead with
it Preston is now at LLNL and is working with Space Marketing on
the sensors that might be carried
NASA would provide contractual launch services However
since NASA bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates
WN 26 Mar 93 the taxpayers would bear most of the expense
Actually that sounds unlikely I dont know what the launch vehicle
would be but I would expect it to go on a commercial launcher
certainly not on the Shuttle and the fraction of the cost paid to NASA
for eg launch support would probably
cover NASAs incremental costs pretty well
This
may look like environmental vandalism but Mike Lawson CEO of
Space Marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the
project is to help the environment The platform will carry ozone
monitors he explainedadvertising is just to help defray costs
This may be the purpose for the University of Colorado people My
guess is that the purpose for the Livermore people is to learn how to
build large inflatable space structures
No as noted LLNL is involved in lightweight sensor design per
Clementine and related programs Im sure folks around here would like to
see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure but after all
the US did the Echo satellites long ago and an advertising structure
would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than Echo was
or a parade balloon for that matter
What do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize
the night sky It is not even April 1 anymore
While I happen to personally dislike the idea mostly because Ive got
a background in astronomy its hardly vandalism it would be a shortlived
intrusion on the night sky doing no permanent damage and actually hurting
only a small subset of astronomers On the other hand it would certainly
draw attention to space
If this is true I think its a great idea
Learning how to build structures in space in an essential
step towards space development
Which unfortunately this is not likely to contribute much to
If such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates
creative use of partial private sector funding in the process so
much the better
Is NASA really supporting this junk
As far as I know its a purely commercial venture
And does anyone have any more details other than what was in the WN
news blip How serious is this project Is this just in the wild
idea stage or does it have real funding
I gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers
Commercial projects however generally dont get funding they
get customers whether it will have customers remains to be seen
Are protesting groups being organized in the States
Not yet Though if this project goes through I suppose The Return
of Jeremy Rifkin is inevitable
Nahh Hes too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in
the sky
Brian Yamauchi Case Western Reserve University
yamauchialphacescwruedu Department of Computer Engineering and Science
Jordin Kare jtks1gov Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
[These are my personal views only and do not represent official statements
or positions of LLNL the University of California or the US DOE]
preprocess doc From: simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale)
Subject: Re: note to Bobby M., again
Nntp-Posting-Host: nin
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Warwick University, England
Lines: 30
In article <1993Apr13.213527.3706@ultb.isc.rit.edu> snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu (S.N. Mozumder ) writes:
> How about people who are not religous? Take the inner city. There are
> many people that care little for religion. Lot of crime. Lot of
> murder. This is the other end- lack of religion- that allows wrong to
> happen.
I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half, and one of the many reasons why
I intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can
walk anywhere (and I mean *anywhere*) at any time of day or night and not
feel uneasy, even if one's from an ethnic minority as I was.
Clues for Bobby (why do I bother?): (i) Tokyo is a city, and inner Tokyo
is an inner city; (ii) there is a negligible level of violent crime, and
a street murder will be a lead item on *national* TV news; (iii) the
population is almost universally atheistic.
Next time I go for a stroll around Beirut at night, I'll let you know how
it compares.
> Bobby Mozumder
Cheers
Simon
--
Simon Clippingdale simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science Tel (+44) 203 523296
University of Warwick FAX (+44) 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL, U.K.
after prepro From simondcswarwickacuk Simon Clippingdale
Subject Re note to Bobby M again
NntpPostingHost nin
Organization Department of Computer Science Warwick University England
Lines 30
In article 1993Apr132135273706ultbiscritedu snm6394ultbiscritedu SN Mozumder writes
How about people who are not religous Take the inner city There are
many people that care little for religion Lot of crime Lot of
murder This is the other end lack of religion that allows wrong to
happen
I lived in Tokyo for a year and a half and one of the many reasons why
I intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can
walk anywhere and I mean anywhere at any time of day or night and not
feel uneasy even if ones from an ethnic minority as I was
Clues for Bobby why do I bother i Tokyo is a city and inner Tokyo
is an inner city ii there is a negligible level of violent crime and
a street murder will be a lead item on national TV news iii the
population is almost universally atheistic
Next time I go for a stroll around Beirut at night Ill let you know how
it compares
Bobby Mozumder
Cheers
Simon
Simon Clippingdale simondcswarwickacuk
Department of Computer Science Tel 44 203 523296
University of Warwick FAX 44 203 525714
Coventry CV4 7AL UK
preprocess doc From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Ancient islamic rituals
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Lines: 21
In <16BA6C947.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>In article <1993Apr3.081052.11292@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>
>>There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
>>marriage.
>>
>>I personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships
>>between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure
>>environment for children to grow up in.
>(Deletion)
>
>As an addition to Chris Faehl's post, what about homosexuals?
Well, from an Islamic viewpoint, homosexuality is not the norm for
society. I cannot really say much about the Islamic viewpoint on homosexuality
as it is not something I have done much research on.
Fred Rice
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
after prepro From dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice
Subject Re Ancient islamic rituals
Organization Monash University Melb Australia
Lines 21
In 16BA6C947I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
In article 1993Apr308105211292monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
There has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of
marriage
I personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships
between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure
environment for children to grow up in
Deletion
As an addition to Chris Faehls post what about homosexuals
Well from an Islamic viewpoint homosexuality is not the norm for
society I cannot really say much about the Islamic viewpoint on homosexuality
as it is not something I have done much research on
Fred Rice
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau
preprocess doc From: xrcjd@resolve.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles J. Divine)
Subject: Space Station radio commercial
Organization: NASA/GSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines: 13
A brief political/cultural item.
Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials (elected and otherwise).
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes, diamond
jewelry, expensive resorts and (truthfully) Trident submarines.
This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project.
Didn't catch the advertiser.
Guess they're pulling out all the stops.
--
Chuck Divine
after prepro From xrcjdresolvegsfcnasagov Charles J Divine
Subject Space Station radio commercial
Organization NASAGSFC Greenbelt Maryland
Lines 13
A brief politicalcultural item
Radio station WGMS in Washington is a classical music station with
a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise
Imagine a radio station that advertises Mercedes Benzes diamond
jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully Trident submarines
This morning I heard a commercial for the space station project
Didnt catch the advertiser
Guess theyre pulling out all the stops
Chuck Divine
preprocess doc From: mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus)
Subject: Re: Lindbergh and the moon (was:Why not give $1G)
Organization: MDSSC
Lines: 32
In article <1r3nuvINNjep@lynx.unm.edu>, cook@varmit.mdc.com (Layne Cook) writes:
> All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race (i.e. $1G to the first 1-year
> moon base) is intriguing. Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
> development before. The $25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
> Saint Louis venture to his financial backers.
> But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
> realize that much more was at stake than $25,000.
> Could it work with the moon? Who are the far-sighted financial backers of
> today?
The commercial uses of a transportation system between already-settled-
and-civilized areas are obvious. Spaceflight is NOT in this position.
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the '30's, but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery. It didn't require gov't to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination. In practice, some were gov't funded, some were private.
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff.
I am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop,
and large numbers of people will live and work off-Earth. But if you ask
me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base, I
can't give them. We just don't know enough. The launch rate demanded by
existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much, and
we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries
will be, when they will practical, how much will have to be invested to
start them, etc.
--
Keith Mancus <mancus@butch.jsc.nasa.gov> |
N5WVR <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> |
"Black powder and alcohol, when your states and cities fall, |
when your back's against the wall...." -Leslie Fish |
after prepro From mancussweetpeajscnasagov Keith Mancus
Subject Re Lindbergh and the moon wasWhy not give 1G
Organization MDSSC
Lines 32
In article 1r3nuvINNjeplynxunmedu cookvarmitmdccom Layne Cook writes
All of this talk about a COMMERCIAL space race ie 1G to the first 1year
moon base is intriguing Similar prizes have influenced aerospace
development before The 25k Orteig prize helped Lindbergh sell his Spirit of
Saint Louis venture to his financial backers
But I strongly suspect that his Saint Louis backers had the foresight to
realize that much more was at stake than 25000
Could it work with the moon Who are the farsighted financial backers of
today
The commercial uses of a transportation system between alreadysettled
andcivilized areas are obvious Spaceflight is NOT in this position
The correct analogy is not with aviation of the 30s but the long
transocean voyages of the Age of Discovery It didnt require govt to
fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit
at the destination In practice some were govt funded some were private
But there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount
of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff
I am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop
and large numbers of people will live and work offEarth But if you ask
me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base I
cant give them We just dont know enough The launch rate demanded by
existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much and
we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries
will be when they will practical how much will have to be invested to
start them etc
Keith Mancus
N5WVR
Black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall
when your backs against the wall Leslie Fish
preprocess doc From: mccullou@snake2.cs.wisc.edu (Mark McCullough)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 109
My turn to jump in! :)
In article <1pi8h5INNq40@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>(reference line trimmed)
>
>livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>
>[...]
>
>>There is a good deal more confusion here. You started off with the
>>assertion that there was some "objective" morality, and as you admit
>>here, you finished up with a recursive definition. Murder is
>>"objectively" immoral, but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
>>requires an appeal to morality.
>
I think you mean circular, not recursive, but that is semantics.
Recursiveness has no problems, it is just horribly inefficient (just ask
any assembly programmer.)
>Yes.
>
>>Now you have switch targets a little, but only a little. Now you are
>>asking what is the "goal"? What do you mean by "goal?". Are you
>>suggesting that there is some "objective" "goal" out there somewhere,
>>and we form our morals to achieve it?
>
>Well, for example, the goal of "natural" morality is the survival and
>propogation of the species. Another example of a moral system is
>presented within the Declaration of Independence, which states that we
>should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You see,
>to have a moral system, we must define the purpose of the system. That is,
>we shall be moral unto what end?
The oft-quoted line that says people should be guaranteed life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights, is a complete lie
and deception, as the very authors of that line were in the process of
proving. Liberty is never free, it is always purchased at some cost,
almost always at the cost to another. Whos liberty is more inalienable?
Similarly for right of life. When one person must die if he is to save
another, or even a group of others, whos life is more inalienable?
That leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty,
especially for serial killers. Whos life and liberty is more valuable,
the serial killer, or the victim? According to that beautiful line,
those two rights should be completely inviolate, that is, noone should be
able to remove them. This _includes_ government. Admittedly the serial
killer has restricted some people's life and/or liberty, but is not his
own life/liberty inviolate also? According to the declaration of independence,
it is.
>>>Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule. And, I thought I had
>>>defined murder as an intentional killing of a non-murderer, against his will.
Oooh, I like that. It means that killing an infant is not murder because
it cannot be against its will. Reason, an infant has no will as such.
Similarly for people who are brain dead (easier to see), in a coma, etc.
Also, under current law, accidental killing is still murder. How will you
include that?
>>>And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
>>>innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not.
>>>I fail to see what this has to do with anything. I never claimed that our
>>>system of morality was an objective one.
>>I thought that was your very first claim. That there was
>>some kind of "objective" morality, and that an example of that was
>>that murder is wrong. If you don't want to claim that any more,
>>that's fine.
The only real golden rule in life is, he who has the gold, makes the
rules. I.e. Might Makes Right. That is survival. Now what is wrong
with that?
>Well, murder violates the golen rule, which is certainly a pillar of most
>every moral system. However, I am not assuming that our current system
>and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral. I think that
>it is a very good approximation, but we can't be perfect.
If you mean the golden rule as I stated, yes, almost every system as
implemented has used that in reality. Sorry, I don't deal as much in
fiction, as I do in reality.
>>And by the way, you don't seem to understand the difference between
>>"arbitrary" and "objective". If Keith Schneider "defines" murder
>>to be this that and the other, that's arbitrary. Jon Livesey may
>>still say "Well, according to my personal system of morality, all
>>killing of humans against their will is murder, and wrong, and what
>>the legal definition of murder may be in the USA, Kuweit, Saudi
>>Arabia, or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me".
WELCOME TO OZLAND!!!!!!! :)
What is NOT arbitrary? If you can find some part of society, some societal
rules, morals, etc. that are not arbitrary, please tell me. I don't think
there are any.
>Well, "objective" would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
>concepts, while "arbitary" implies no clear line of reasoning.
>
>keith
Sounds like euphemisms to me. The difference seems to be, that objective
is some reasoning that I like, while arbitrary is some reasoning that
I don't like OR don't understand.
M^2
after prepro From mccullousnake2cswiscedu Mark McCullough
Subject Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
reference line trimmed
liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
[]
There is a good deal more confusion here You started off with the
assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit
here you finished up with a recursive definition Murder is
objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself
requires an appeal to morality
I think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics
Recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask
any assembly programmer
Yes
Now you have switch targets a little but only a little Now you are
asking what is the goal What do you mean by goal Are you
suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere
and we form our morals to achieve it
Well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and
propogation of the species Another example of a moral system is
presented within the Declaration of Independence which states that we
should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness You see
to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system That is
we shall be moral unto what end
The oftquoted line that says people should be guaranteed life liberty
and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights is a complete lie
and deception as the very authors of that line were in the process of
proving Liberty is never free it is always purchased at some cost
almost always at the cost to another Whos liberty is more inalienable
Similarly for right of life When one person must die if he is to save
another or even a group of others whos life is more inalienable
That leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty
especially for serial killers Whos life and liberty is more valuable
the serial killer or the victim According to that beautiful line
those two rights should be completely inviolate that is noone should be
able to remove them This _includes_ government Admittedly the serial
killer has restricted some peoples life andor liberty but is not his
own lifeliberty inviolate also According to the declaration of independence
it is
Murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule And I thought I had
defined murder as an intentional killing of a nonmurderer against his will
Oooh I like that It means that killing an infant is not murder because
it cannot be against its will Reason an infant has no will as such
Similarly for people who are brain dead easier to see in a coma etc
Also under current law accidental killing is still murder How will you
include that
And you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an
innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not
I fail to see what this has to do with anything I never claimed that our
system of morality was an objective one
I thought that was your very first claim That there was
some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was
that murder is wrong If you dont want to claim that any more
thats fine
The only real golden rule in life is he who has the gold makes the
rules Ie Might Makes Right That is survival Now what is wrong
with that
Well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most
every moral system However I am not assuming that our current system
and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral I think that
it is a very good approximation but we cant be perfect
If you mean the golden rule as I stated yes almost every system as
implemented has used that in reality Sorry I dont deal as much in
fiction as I do in reality
And by the way you dont seem to understand the difference between
arbitrary and objective If Keith Schneider defines murder
to be this that and the other thats arbitrary Jon Livesey may
still say Well according to my personal system of morality all
killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what
the legal definition of murder may be in the USA Kuweit Saudi
Arabia or the PRC may be matters not a whit to me
WELCOME TO OZLAND
What is NOT arbitrary If you can find some part of society some societal
rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell me I dont think
there are any
Well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental
concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning
keith
Sounds like euphemisms to me The difference seems to be that objective
is some reasoning that I like while arbitrary is some reasoning that
I dont like OR dont understand
M^2
preprocess doc From: drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Re: Quaint US Archaisms
Article-I.D.: news.1993Apr06.090626.21880
Organization: Mentor Graphics
Lines: 14
Originator: drickel@bounce
Nntp-Posting-Host: bounce.mentorg.com
In article <C512wC.B0M.1@cs.cmu.edu>, nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines) writes:
|> Oh, and the other advantage is that you don't have shit constants like
|> 32.??? hanging around.
No, instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 31556925.9747 and
299792.458 and 9.80665 and ...
How many cc's in a ml anyway? The metric system has its problems, just not
as many of them.
david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com
after prepro From drickelbouncementorgcom Dave Rickel
Subject Re Quaint US Archaisms
ArticleID news1993Apr0609062621880
Organization Mentor Graphics
Lines 14
Originator drickelbounce
NntpPostingHost bouncementorgcom
In article nickhCSCMUEDU Nick Haines writes
Oh and the other advantage is that you dont have shit constants like
32 hanging around
No instead you have stupid things like 3600 and 86400 and 315569259747 and
299792458 and 980665 and
How many ccs in a ml anyway The metric system has its problems just not
as many of them
david rickel
drickelsjcmentorgcom
preprocess doc From: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng)
Subject: Re: nuclear waste
Organization: Private Computer, Totowa, NJ
Lines: 18
In article <1993Mar31.191658.9836@mksol.dseg.ti.com: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
:Just a bit off, Phil. We don't reprocess nuclear fuel because what
:you get from the reprocessing plant is bomb-grade plutonium. It is
:also cheaper, given current prices of things, to simply fabricate new
:fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones, creating potentially
:dangerous materials (from a national security point of view) and then
:fabricate that back into fuel rods.
Fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go
kind of boom, but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium. If you want bomb
grade plutonium use a research reactor, not a power reactor. But if you want
a bomb, don't use plutonium, use uranium.
--
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to ken@eies2.njit.edu for now.
"All this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting
on someone's table" -- J.L. Picard: ST:TNG
after prepro From kensugrauucp Kenneth Ng
Subject Re nuclear waste
Organization Private Computer Totowa NJ
Lines 18
In article 1993Mar311916589836mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
Just a bit off Phil We dont reprocess nuclear fuel because what
you get from the reprocessing plant is bombgrade plutonium It is
also cheaper given current prices of things to simply fabricate new
fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones creating potentially
dangerous materials from a national security point of view and then
fabricate that back into fuel rods
Fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go
kind of boom but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium If you want bomb
grade plutonium use a research reactor not a power reactor But if you want
a bomb dont use plutonium use uranium
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to keneies2njitedu for now
All this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting
on someones table JL Picard STTNG
preprocess doc From: abdkw@stdvax (David Ward)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Lines: 34
In article <20APR199321040621@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov>, baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes...
>In article <1993Apr20.204335.157595@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jgreen@trumpet.calpoly.edu (James Thomas Green) writes...
>>Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts. For
>>example, Why couldn't Magellan just be told to go into a "safe"
>>mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a low-power-use mode and if
>>maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
>>gets better (hopefully), it could be turned on again.
>
>It can be, but the problem is a political one, not a technical one.
Also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode
(probably a spin-stabilized sun-pointing orientation) is a dollar not
spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft. In order to turn the
spacecraft back on, you either need to insure that the Ops guys will be
available, or you need to retrain a new team.
Having said that, there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed.
Many of the operational satellites Goddard flies (like the Tiros NOAA
series) require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set.
Extras which get replaced on-orbit are powered into a "standby" mode for
use in an emergency. In that case, however, the same ops team is still
required to fly the operational birds; so the standby maintenance is
relatively cheap.
Finally, Pat's explanation (some spacecraft require continuous maintenance
to stay under control) is also right on the mark. I suggested a spin-
stabilized control mode because it would require little power or
maintenance, but it still might require some momentum dumping from time
to time.
In the end, it *is* a political decision (since the difference is money),
but there is some technical rationale behind the decision.
David W. @ GSFC
after prepro From abdkwstdvax David Ward
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 14b1
Organization Goddard Space Flight Center Robotics Lab
Lines 34
In article 20APR199321040621kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
In article 1993Apr20204335157595zeuscalpolyedu jgreentrumpetcalpolyedu James Thomas Green writes
Why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts For
example Why couldnt Magellan just be told to go into a safe
mode and stay bobbing about Venus in a lowpoweruse mode and if
maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy
gets better hopefully it could be turned on again
It can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one
Also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode
probably a spinstabilized sunpointing orientation is a dollar not
spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft In order to turn the
spacecraft back on you either need to insure that the Ops guys will be
available or you need to retrain a new team
Having said that there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed
Many of the operational satellites Goddard flies like the Tiros NOAA
series require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set
Extras which get replaced onorbit are powered into a standby mode for
use in an emergency In that case however the same ops team is still
required to fly the operational birds so the standby maintenance is
relatively cheap
Finally Pats explanation some spacecraft require continuous maintenance
to stay under control is also right on the mark I suggested a spin
stabilized control mode because it would require little power or
maintenance but it still might require some momentum dumping from time
to time
In the end it is a political decision since the difference is money
but there is some technical rationale behind the decision
David W GSFC
preprocess doc From: kilman2y@fiu.edu (Yevgeny (Gene) Kilman)
Subject: Re: USAToday ad ("family values")
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Lines: 15
In article <C4rzz2.47J@unix.portal.com> danb@shell.portal.com (Dan E Babcock) writes:
>There was a funny ad in USAToday from "American Family Association".
>I'll post a few choice parts for your enjoyment (all emphases is in
>the ad; I'm not adding anything). All the typos are mine. :)
[Dan's article deleted]
I found the same add in our local Sunday newspaper.
The add was placed in the ..... cartoon section!
The perfect place for it ! :-)
Y.K.
after prepro From kilman2yfiuedu Yevgeny Gene Kilman
Subject Re USAToday ad family values
Organization Florida International University Miami
Lines 15
In article danbshellportalcom Dan E Babcock writes
There was a funny ad in USAToday from American Family Association
Ill post a few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases is in
the ad Im not adding anything All the typos are mine
[Dans article deleted]
I found the same add in our local Sunday newspaper
The add was placed in the cartoon section
The perfect place for it
YK
preprocess doc Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR.
Lines: 47
In article <1993Apr3.212139.14076@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <1pj9bs$d4j@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>>I would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense
>>as bad as many. We certainly feel that way when we punish
>>someone for a single murder.
>>Now if we reform system X, by reducing the number of deaths
>>by one, we produce system XX. I'd say we should not go back
>>to system X, even though by doing so we would re-introduce only
>>a single extra death.
>
>Bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than
>the one you indicate.
>--
Yes, I do.
My argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to
kill people. That is it's primary (and I would argue only)
purpose. To continue to kill people by a practice that has
almost no utility, especially when you know you will be killing
innocents, is unconscionable.
At the very least, the existence of the prison system and our
transportation system are based on their merits to society, not
their detriments. We are willing to accept a few lost innocent
lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued
existence of these systems. One has to stretch the evidence and
the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment.
Just in case I wasn't clear again: We maintain a capital
punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with
no net positive gain. Why?
Were you to pin me in a corner and ask, I would have to respond
that I don't belief the state should have the right to take life
at all. But I won't open that debate, as it seems others are
tiring of this thread on a.a anyway.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro Subject Re arromdeejyusenkyoucsjhuedu Ken Arromdee writes
In article 1pj9bsd4jfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense
as bad as many We certainly feel that way when we punish
someone for a single murder
Now if we reform system X by reducing the number of deaths
by one we produce system XX Id say we should not go back
to system X even though by doing so we would reintroduce only
a single extra death
Bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than
the one you indicate
Yes I do
My argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to
kill people That is its primary and I would argue only
purpose To continue to kill people by a practice that has
almost no utility especially when you know you will be killing
innocents is unconscionable
At the very least the existence of the prison system and our
transportation system are based on their merits to society not
their detriments We are willing to accept a few lost innocent
lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued
existence of these systems One has to stretch the evidence and
the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment
Just in case I wasnt clear again We maintain a capital
punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with
no net positive gain Why
Were you to pin me in a corner and ask I would have to respond
that I dont belief the state should have the right to take life
at all But I wont open that debate as it seems others are
tiring of this thread on aa anyway
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Organization: Wesleyan University
Nntp-Posting-Host: wesleyan.edu
Lines: 28
In article <115621@bu.edu>, jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
> In article <1993Apr15.135650.28926@st-andrews.ac.uk> nrp@st-andrews.ac.uk (Norman R. Paterson) writes:
>
>>I don't think you're right about Germany. My daughter was born there and
>>I don't think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there (beyond the
>>rights of all EC citizens). She is a British citizen by virtue of
>>her parentage, but that's not "full" citizenship. For example, I don't think
>>her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way.
>
> I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
> application for it. It might require immigration to Germany, but
> I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
> in this case.
Nope, Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws. The
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany, but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany can't.
It's not a very good example to show citizenship without descent.
Karl
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Lastly, I come to China in the hope | "All you touch and all you see |
| of fulfilling a lifelong ambition - | Is all your life will ever be." |
| dropping acid on the Great Wall." --Duke | --Pink Floyd |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| A Lie is still a Lie even if 3.8 billion people believe it. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
after prepro Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
From kmagnaccaeaglewesleyanedu
Organization Wesleyan University
NntpPostingHost wesleyanedu
Lines 28
In article 115621buedu jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger writes
In article 1993Apr1513565028926standrewsacuk nrpstandrewsacuk Norman R Paterson writes
I dont think youre right about Germany My daughter was born there and
I dont think she has any German rights eg to vote or live there beyond the
rights of all EC citizens She is a British citizen by virtue of
her parentage but thats not full citizenship For example I dont think
her children could be British by virtue of her in the same way
I am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an
application for it It might require immigration to Germany but
I am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable
in this case
Nope Germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws The
ethnic Germans who have lived in Russia for over 100 years
automatically become citizens if they move to Germany but the
Turks who are now in their third generation in Germany cant
Its not a very good example to show citizenship without descent
Karl
Lastly I come to China in the hope All you touch and all you see
of fulfilling a lifelong ambition Is all your life will ever be
dropping acid on the Great Wall Duke Pink Floyd
A Lie is still a Lie even if 38 billion people believe it
preprocess doc From: freed@nss.org (Bev Freed)
Subject: FAQs
Organization: The NSS BBS, Pittsburgh PA (412) 366-5208
Lines: 8
I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly. Every 28-30 days, I get this bloated feeling.
--
Bev Freed - via FidoNet node 1:129/104
UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!freed
INTERNET: freed@nss.org
after prepro From freednssorg Bev Freed
Subject FAQs
Organization The NSS BBS Pittsburgh PA 412 3665208
Lines 8
I was wondering if the FAQ files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly Every 2830 days I get this bloated feeling
Bev Freed via FidoNet node 1129104
UUCP pittnssfreed
INTERNET freednssorg
preprocess doc From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: NASP
Distribution: sci
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 39
I have before me a pertinent report from the United States General
Accounting Office:
National Aero-Space Plane: Restructuring Future Research and Development
Efforts
December 1992
Report number GAO/NSIAD-93-71
In the back it lists the following related reports:
NASP: Key Issues Facing the Program (31 Mar 92) GAO/T-NSIAD-92-26
Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Japan and Australia
(4 Oct 91) GAO/NSIAD-92-5
Aerospace Plane Technology: R&D Efforts in Europe (25 July 91)
GAO/NSIAD-91-194
Aerospace Technology: Technical Data and Information on Foreign
Test Facilities (22 Jun 90) GAO/NSIAD-90-71FS
Investment in Foreign Aerospace Vehicle Research and Technological
Development Efforts (2 Aug 89) GAO/T-NSIAD-89-43
NASP: A Technology Development and Demonstration Program to Build
the X-30 (27 Apr 88) GAO/NSIAD-88-122
On the inside back cover, under "Ordering Information" it says
"The first copy of each GAO report is free. . . . Orders
may also be placed by calling (202)275-6241
"
Dani
--
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
after prepro From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re NASP
Distribution sci
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 39
I have before me a pertinent report from the United States General
Accounting Office
National AeroSpace Plane Restructuring Future Research and Development
Efforts
December 1992
Report number GAONSIAD9371
In the back it lists the following related reports
NASP Key Issues Facing the Program 31 Mar 92 GAOTNSIAD9226
Aerospace Plane Technology RD Efforts in Japan and Australia
4 Oct 91 GAONSIAD925
Aerospace Plane Technology RD Efforts in Europe 25 July 91
GAONSIAD91194
Aerospace Technology Technical Data and Information on Foreign
Test Facilities 22 Jun 90 GAONSIAD9071FS
Investment in Foreign Aerospace Vehicle Research and Technological
Development Efforts 2 Aug 89 GAOTNSIAD8943
NASP A Technology Development and Demonstration Program to Build
the X30 27 Apr 88 GAONSIAD88122
On the inside back cover under Ordering Information it says
The first copy of each GAO report is free Orders
may also be placed by calling 2022756241
Dani
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>>If I kill this person [an innocent person convicted of murder],
>>then a murder would be committed, but I would not be the murderer. At least,
>>I wouldn't "reasonably" be considered a murderer, with "reasonable" being
>>introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be
>>totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information.
>If society collective decides to carry the burden of executing
>it's citizens, then it also carries the blame for their innocent
>blood. Each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of
>capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and
>every innocent victim of the system.
Why are only those people in favor of the system to blame. If society
accepts such a system, then each member of society is to blame when
an innocent person gets executed. Those that are not in favor should
work to convince others.
And, most members of our society have accepted the blame--they've considered
the risk to be acceptable. Similarly, every person who drives must accept
the blame for fatal traffic accidents. This is something that is surely
going to happen when so many people are driving. It is all a question of
what risk is acceptable. It is much more likely that an innocent person
will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re Political Atheists
Organization California Institute of Technology Pasadena
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost punishercaltechedu
bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
If I kill this person [an innocent person convicted of murder]
then a murder would be committed but I would not be the murderer At least
I wouldnt reasonably be considered a murderer with reasonable being
introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be
totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information
If society collective decides to carry the burden of executing
its citizens then it also carries the blame for their innocent
blood Each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of
capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and
every innocent victim of the system
Why are only those people in favor of the system to blame If society
accepts such a system then each member of society is to blame when
an innocent person gets executed Those that are not in favor should
work to convince others
And most members of our society have accepted the blametheyve considered
the risk to be acceptable Similarly every person who drives must accept
the blame for fatal traffic accidents This is something that is surely
going to happen when so many people are driving It is all a question of
what risk is acceptable It is much more likely that an innocent person
will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed
keith
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 62
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
(reference line trimmed)
SSAUYET@eagle.wesleyan.edu (SCOTT D. SAUYET) writes:
>First, I'll make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one
>who has commited murder.
Well, I'd say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder.
For instance, if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain
blanks, and someone was killed with such a gun, the person who actually
performed the action isn't the murderer (but I guess this is actually made
clear in the below definition).
>I'd be interested to see a more reasonable definition.
What do you mean by "reasonable?"
>Otherwise, your inductive definition doesn't bottom out:
>Your definition, in essence, is that
>>Murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited
>>murder, against his will.
>Expanding the second occurence of `murder' in the above, we see that
[...]
Yes, it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition. But,
even though the series is recursively infinite, I think the meaning can
still be deduced.
>I assume you can see the problem here. To do a correct inductive
>definition, you must define something in terms of a simpler case, and
>you must have one or several "bottoming out" cases. For instance, we
>can define the factorial function (the function which assigns to a
>positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or
>equal to it) on the positive integers inductively as follows:
[math lesson deleted]
Okay, let's look at this situation: suppose there is a longstanding
feud between two families which claim that the other committed some
travesty in the distant past. Each time a member of the one family
kills a member of the other, the other family thinks that it is justified
in killing a that member of the first family. Now, let's suppose that this
sequence has occurred an infinite number of times. Or, if you don't
like dealing with infinities, suppose that one member of the family
goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing. That is, there
is a never-ending loop of slayings based on some non-existent travesty.
How do you resolve this?
Well, they are all murders.
Now, I suppose that this isn't totally applicable to your "problem," but
it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system.
And, in any case, the nested "murderer" in the definition of murder
cannot be infintely recursive, given the finite existence of humanity.
And, a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved. So, the
first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily
a murderer. Is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently
unreducable definition? See, in a totally objective system where all the
information is available, such a nested definition isn't really a problem.
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re First Ill make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one
who has commited murder
Well Id say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder
For instance if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain
blanks and someone was killed with such a gun the person who actually
performed the action isnt the murderer but I guess this is actually made
clear in the below definition
Id be interested to see a more reasonable definition
What do you mean by reasonable
Otherwise your inductive definition doesnt bottom out
Your definition in essence is that
Murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited
murder against his will
Expanding the second occurence of `murder in the above we see that
[]
Yes it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition But
even though the series is recursively infinite I think the meaning can
still be deduced
I assume you can see the problem here To do a correct inductive
definition you must define something in terms of a simpler case and
you must have one or several bottoming out cases For instance we
can define the factorial function the function which assigns to a
positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or
equal to it on the positive integers inductively as follows
[math lesson deleted]
Okay lets look at this situation suppose there is a longstanding
feud between two families which claim that the other committed some
travesty in the distant past Each time a member of the one family
kills a member of the other the other family thinks that it is justified
in killing a that member of the first family Now lets suppose that this
sequence has occurred an infinite number of times Or if you dont
like dealing with infinities suppose that one member of the family
goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing That is there
is a neverending loop of slayings based on some nonexistent travesty
How do you resolve this
Well they are all murders
Now I suppose that this isnt totally applicable to your problem but
it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system
And in any case the nested murderer in the definition of murder
cannot be infintely recursive given the finite existence of humanity
And a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved So the
first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily
a murderer Is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently
unreducable definition See in a totally objective system where all the
information is available such a nested definition isnt really a problem
keith
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Motto Mania
Lines: 33
mathew writes:
>I prefer Mark-Jason Dominus's suggestion that the motto should be changed to
>"Mind your own fucking business".
In this era of AIDS, isn't someone's fucking *everyone's* interest? (semi
:-))
I propose "We have no motto."
Recently in the glorious state of Maryland (the only state whose state song
refers to Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant), people have gotten all wound up over
the state motto (which we inherited from the Calverts):
"Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine"
which, if you read Italian, says,
"Manly deeds, womanly words"
or something to that effect. In the state which not so long ago had four
women out of seven representatives, this represents a problem. The official
solution was to change the translation, so now it means:
"Strong deeds, gentle words"
My personal suggestion was changing it to "walk softly and carry a big
stick."
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Motto Mania
Lines 33
mathew writes
I prefer MarkJason Dominuss suggestion that the motto should be changed to
Mind your own fucking business
In this era of AIDS isnt someones fucking everyones interest semi
I propose We have no motto
Recently in the glorious state of Maryland the only state whose state song
refers to Abraham Lincoln as a tyrant people have gotten all wound up over
the state motto which we inherited from the Calverts
Fatti Maschii Parole Femine
which if you read Italian says
Manly deeds womanly words
or something to that effect In the state which not so long ago had four
women out of seven representatives this represents a problem The official
solution was to change the translation so now it means
Strong deeds gentle words
My personal suggestion was changing it to walk softly and carry a big
stick
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Subject: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions
Summary: Please read this file before posting to alt.atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Expires: Fri, 14 May 1993 09:39:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19930315114603@mantis.co.uk>
Lines: 733
Archive-name: atheism/faq
Alt-atheism-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 5 April 1993
Version: 1.1
Alt.Atheism Frequently-Asked Questions
This file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in
alt.atheism. Points covered here are ones which are not covered in the
"Introduction to Atheism"; you are advised to read that article as well
before posting.
These answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive. The purpose of
the periodic FAQ postings is not to stifle debate, but to raise its level. If
you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isn't
covered by the answer given, please feel free to make your point.
Overview of contents:
"What is the purpose of this newsgroup?"
"Hitler was an atheist!"
"The Bible proves it"
"Pascal's Wager"
"What is Occam's Razor?"
"Why it's good to believe in Jesus"
"Why I know that God exists"
"Einstein and "God does not play dice""
"Everyone worships something"
"Why there must be a causeless cause"
"The universe is so complex it must have been designed"
"Independent evidence that the Bible is true"
"Godel's Incompleteness Theorem"
"George Bush on atheism and patriotism"
"I know where hell is!"
"Biblical contradictions wanted"
"The USA is a Christian nation"
"The USA is not a Christian nation"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: What is the purpose of this newsgroup?
Typical posting:
Why have a newsgroup about atheism? Why do atheists organize in groups?
What is there to discuss?
Response:
Many things are discussed here, including:
* Whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting one's
family
* Prayer in schools
* Discrimination against atheists
* Sunday trading laws
* The Satanic Child Abuse myth
* Whether one should be an overt atheist or 'stay in the closet'
* How religious societies prey (sic) on new college students
* How to get rid of unwanted proselytizers
* Whether religion is a danger to society and/or the individual
* Why people become atheists
Of course, inevitably alt.atheism tends to attract evangelical Christians
looking for someone to convert. Most readers of the newsgroup don't
want to be preached to, although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure
from tearing apart particularly ill-considered or uninformed postings.
------------------------------
Subject: Hitler was an atheist!
Typical posting:
Hitler was an atheist, and look at what he did!
Response:
Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist. As he said himself:
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
his own denomination, of making _people_stop_just_talking_
superficially_of_God's_will,_and_actually_fulfill_God's_will,_and_
not_let_God's_word_be_desecrated._[orig. ital.]
For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their
abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
Lord's creation, the divine will. Therefore, let every man be
active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every
man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
religious community and tries to butt into the other.
[...]
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator: _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew,_I_am_
fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord._[orig. ital.]
-- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", trans. Ralph Mannheim.
Of course, someone bad believing something does not make that belief
wrong. It's also entirely possible that Hitler was lying when he claimed
to believe in God. We certainly can't conclude that he's an atheist,
though.
------------------------------
Subject: The Bible proves it
Typical posting:
In the Bible it says that...
Response:
Most of the readers of alt.atheism feel that the Bible is of questionable
accuracy, as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before. Thus, any claimed
'truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy. This isn't to say that The
Bible has no truth in it; simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted.
Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to "interpretation", any claim that a passage 'means' one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate.
Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books.
It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion.
------------------------------
Subject: Pascal's Wager
Typical posting:
If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing --
but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to
hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist.
Response:
This argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It has several flaws.
Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there are
many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there. This is often
described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a person is a
follower of religion X, he may end up in religion Y's version of hell.
Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're believing in
the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness.
Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in
favour of prayer.
Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that
the two possibilities are equally likely -- or at least, that they are of
comparable likelihood. If, in fact, the possibility of there being a God
is close to zero, the argument becomes much less persuasive. So sadly the
argument is only likely to convince those who believe already.
Also, many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on
evidence, with some amount of intuition. It is not a matter of will or
cost-benefit analysis.
Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:
1. One does not know whether God exists.
2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does
exist.
3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.
There are two approaches to the argument. The first is to view 1 as an
assumption, and 2 as a consequence of it. One problem with this approach, in
the abstract, is that it creates information from no information. This is
considered invalid in information theory. Statement 1 indicates one has no
information about God -- but statement 2 indicates that beneficial information
can be gained from the absolute lack of information about God. This violates
information entropy -- information has been extracted from no information, at
no "cost".
The alternative approach is to claim that 1 and 2 are both assumptions. The
problem with this is that 2 is then basically an assumption which states the
Christian position, and only a Christian will agree with that assumption. The
argument thus collapses to "If you are a Christian, it is in your interests
to believe in God" -- a rather vacuous tautology, and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed.
The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
a wager. He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all
whether people believe in him.
------------------------------
Subject: What is Occam's Razor?
Typical posting:
People keep talking about Occam's Razor. What is it?
Response:
William of Occam formulated a principle which has become known as Occam's
Razor. In its original form, it said "Do not multiply entities
unnecessarily." That is, if you can explain something without supposing
the existence of some entity, then do so.
Nowadays when people refer to Occam's Razor, they generally express it
more generally, for example as "Take the simplest solution".
The relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations
for what we see around us:
1. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, which
came into being as a result of natural processes.
2. There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there, and
there is also a God who created the universe. Clearly this God must be
of non-zero complexity.
Given that both explanations fit the facts, Occam's Razor might suggest
that we should take the simpler of the two -- solution number one.
Unfortunately, some argue that there is a third even more simple solution:
3. There isn't an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there.
We just imagine that there is.
This third option leads us logically towards solipsism, which many people
find unacceptable.
------------------------------
Subject: Why it's good to believe in Jesus
Typical posting:
I want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion.
Response:
Preaching is not appreciated.
Feel free to talk about your religion, but please do not write postings that
are on a "conversion" theme. Such postings do not belong on alt.atheism and
will be rejected from alt.atheism.moderated (try the newsgroup
talk.religion.misc).
You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
newsgroup in an attempt to convert you; please do unto others as you would
have them do unto you!
Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of lengthy
analogies or parables. Be aware that atheists have heard of God and know the
basic claims about him; if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell
atheists that God exists and brings salvation, you may as well not post it,
since it tells us nothing we have not been told before.
------------------------------
Subject: Why I know that God exists
Typical posting:
I *know* from personal experience and prayer that God exists.
Response:
Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists, so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist. That evidence varies from person to person.
Furthermore, without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand, many
people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things -- that they have been
abducted by UFOs, visited by the ghost of Elvis, and so on.
------------------------------
Subject: Einstein and "God does not play dice"
Typical posting:
Albert Einstein believed in God. Do you think you're cleverer than him?
Response:
Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the universe]".
This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the
Christian God. Used this way, it is out of context; it refers to Einstein's
refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory. Furthermore,
Einstein's religious background was Jewish rather than Christian.
A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the following:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings."
Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in an
objective, orderly reality; a reality which would not be subject to random
events and which would not be dependent upon the observer. He believed that
QM was incomplete, and that a better theory would have no need for
statistical interpretations. So far no such better theory has been found,
and much evidence suggests that it never will be.
A longer quote from Einstein appears in "Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A
Symposium", published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion
in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941. In
it he says:
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events
the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side
of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him
neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a
personal God interfering with natural events could never be
*refuted* [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this
doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives
of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine
which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark,
will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm
to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers
of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal
God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past
placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they
will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable
of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity
itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably
more worthy task..."
Einstein has also said:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religous convictions,
a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
science can reveal it."
The latter quote is from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press.
Also from the same book:
"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics
to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind
it."
Of course, the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does
not in itself imply that Christianity is false.
------------------------------
Subject: Everyone worships something
Typical posting:
Everyone worships something, whether it's money, power or God.
Response:
If that is true, everyone is a polytheist. Theists care just as much about
those things that atheists care about. If the atheists' reactions to (for
example) their families amount to worship then so do the theists'.
------------------------------
Subject: Why there must be a causeless cause
Typical posting:
Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member, so
chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause.
Response:
The set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound, but has
no smallest member.
Further, even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause, that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity, and
especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by
any particular religion.
------------------------------
Subject: The universe is so complex it must have been designed
Typical posting:
The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God. Surely you
don't think all this appeared here just by chance?
Response:
This is known as the Argument From Design.
It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talk.origins for a while.
There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here.
However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
so-called Scientific Creationism. Furthermore, there is much evidence,
observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth.
The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of
something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that
surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some
external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos
deliberately.
But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind
capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must
be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favour of the
existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist
position.
This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe,
what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling
improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not
created and just "is" (or "was").
From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe
just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book
"A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed
and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.
The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called
Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on
the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it
evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the
watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the
universe too must have a creator.
The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above
those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates
watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have
created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are
clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.
Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in
the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear
reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument
would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a
different part of creation.
Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that
the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore
stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the
argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not
random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus
internally inconsistent.
------------------------------
Subject: Independent evidence that the Bible is true
Typical posting:
The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
evidence. For example...
Response:
The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
evidence.
Early versions of Josephus's work are thought not to have mentioned Jesus or
James; the extant version discusses John in a non-Christian context. Many
scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and James in passing, but
that this was expanded by Christian copyists. Several "reconstructions" of
the original text have been published to this effect.
Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius (about 320
C.E.). It is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate
falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally acknowledged as 'the
first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.' It is Eusebius who is
generally given the title of authorship for this material.
Aside from the New Testament, the biographical information about Jesus is
more well-documented. For further information, please consult the Frequently
Asked Questions file for the newsgroup soc.religion.christian.
------------------------------
Subject: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem
Typical posting:
Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the
Bible to be both true and complete.
Response:
Godel's First Incompleteness Theorem says that in any consistent formal
system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary
arithmetic, one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be
valid or invalid ('true' or 'false') within that formal system. (Technically
speaking, the system must also be recursive; that is, there must be a decision
procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal
system.)
Essentially, all such systems can formulate what is known as a "Liar
Paradox." The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is "This
sentence is false." Note that if a proposition is undecidable, the formal
system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable.
The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined, so claims
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to
prove or disprove) the existence of God are worthless in isolation.
One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the
existence of God, simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom.
This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof, however.
It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms
that both atheists and theists agree with. It may then be possible to show
that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system. However, that
would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists
within the system. Furthermore, it certainly wouldn't tell us anything about
whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally.
Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about
the actual existence of God; the formal systems are just abstractions.
Another frequent claim is that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates
that a religious text (the Bible, the Book of Mormon or whatever) cannot be
both consistent and universally applicable. Religious texts are not formal
systems, so such claims are nonsense.
------------------------------
Subject: George Bush on atheism and patriotism
Typical posting:
Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens?
Response:
The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I.
Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1988. Sherman
is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of
the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce
federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the
presidential primary:
RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"
GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in
God is important to me."
RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
Americans who are atheists?"
GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,
nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under
God."
RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
of state and church?"
GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not
very high on atheists."
UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were
still angry over the remarks.
The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27,
1989. It can also be found in "Free Enquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue,
Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.
On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane,
cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a
lawsuit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 (Chicago, Illinois) from forcing his first-grade Atheist son to
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as "one nation under God"
(Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place:
RS: "American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday.
Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?"
EM: "It's bullshit."
RS: "What is bullshit?"
EM: "Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit."
RS: "Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
campaign is on this issue."
EM: "You're welcome."
After Bush's election, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract
his statement. On February 21st 1989, C. Boyden Gray, Counsel to the
President, replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by
his original statement, and wrote:
"As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports
atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
supported by the government."
For further information, contact American Atheist Veterans at the American
Atheist Press's Cameron Road address.
------------------------------
Subject: I know where hell is!
Typical posting:
I know where Hell is! Hell is in Norway!
Response:
There are several towns called "Hell" in various countries around the
world, including Norway and the USA. Whilst this information is mildly
amusing the first time one hears it, readers of alt.atheism are now
getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week.
------------------------------
Subject: Biblical contradictions wanted
Typical posting:
Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions?
Response:
American Atheist Press publish an atheist's handbook detailing Biblical
contradictions. See the accompanying posting on Atheist Resources for
details.
There is a file containing some Biblical contradictions available from the
archive-server@mantis.co.uk. See the contacts file for more information.
------------------------------
Subject: The USA is a Christian nation
Typical posting:
Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, shouldn't the
United States be considered a Christian nation?
Response:
Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers, it is clear
that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation. Here are some
quotes; there are many more.
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?
In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen
upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been
the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert
the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it,
needs them not."
- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
- John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will
always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or
requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely
above it."
- Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion",
Nov. 20, 1728
------------------------------
Subject: The USA is not a Christian nation
Typical posting:
Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not in any
sense founded upon the Christian religion?
Response:
No. The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty
of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):
Article 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty collections
such as Charles Bevans' "Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America 1776-1949", vol. 11 (pp. 1070-1080).
The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the U.S. Senate on
June 7, 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June 10, 1797. It was
recently discovered that the Arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the
quotation, it lacks Article XI altogether.
The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow, Consul
General at Algiers, a close friend of Thomas Paine -- and an opponent of
Christianity. It is possible that Barlow made up Article XI, but since there
is no Arabic version of that article to be found, it's hard to say.
In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the
quotation.
End of FAQ Digest
*****************
ÿ
after prepro From mathew
Subject AltAtheism FAQ Frequently Asked Questions
Summary Please read this file before posting to altatheism
Keywords FAQ atheism
Expires Fri 14 May 1993 093955 GMT
Distribution world
Organization Mantis Consultants Cambridge UK
Supersedes 19930315114603mantiscouk
Lines 733
Archivename atheismfaq
Altatheismarchivename faq
Lastmodified 5 April 1993
Version 11
AltAtheism FrequentlyAsked Questions
This file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in
altatheism Points covered here are ones which are not covered in the
Introduction to Atheism you are advised to read that article as well
before posting
These answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive The purpose of
the periodic FAQ postings is not to stifle debate but to raise its level If
you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isnt
covered by the answer given please feel free to make your point
Overview of contents
What is the purpose of this newsgroup
Hitler was an atheist
The Bible proves it
Pascals Wager
What is Occams Razor
Why its good to believe in Jesus
Why I know that God exists
Einstein and God does not play dice
Everyone worships something
Why there must be a causeless cause
The universe is so complex it must have been designed
Independent evidence that the Bible is true
Godels Incompleteness Theorem
George Bush on atheism and patriotism
I know where hell is
Biblical contradictions wanted
The USA is a Christian nation
The USA is not a Christian nation
Subject What is the purpose of this newsgroup
Typical posting
Why have a newsgroup about atheism Why do atheists organize in groups
What is there to discuss
Response
Many things are discussed here including
Whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting ones
family
Prayer in schools
Discrimination against atheists
Sunday trading laws
The Satanic Child Abuse myth
Whether one should be an overt atheist or stay in the closet
How religious societies prey sic on new college students
How to get rid of unwanted proselytizers
Whether religion is a danger to society andor the individual
Why people become atheists
Of course inevitably altatheism tends to attract evangelical Christians
looking for someone to convert Most readers of the newsgroup dont
want to be preached to although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure
from tearing apart particularly illconsidered or uninformed postings
Subject Hitler was an atheist
Typical posting
Hitler was an atheist and look at what he did
Response
Adolf Hitler was emphatically not an atheist As he said himself
The folkishminded man in particular has the sacred duty each in
his own denomination of making _people_stop_just_talking_
superficially_of_Gods_will_and_actually_fulfill_Gods_will_and_
not_let_Gods_word_be_desecrated_[orig ital]
For Gods will gave men their form their essence and their
abilities Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
Lords creation the divine will Therefore let every man be
active each in his own denomination if you please and let every
man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
religious community and tries to butt into the other
[]
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
of the Almighty Creator _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew_I_am_
fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord_[orig ital]
Adolf Hitler from Mein Kampf trans Ralph Mannheim
Of course someone bad believing something does not make that belief
wrong Its also entirely possible that Hitler was lying when he claimed
to believe in God We certainly cant conclude that hes an atheist
though
Subject The Bible proves it
Typical posting
In the Bible it says that
Response
Most of the readers of altatheism feel that the Bible is of questionable
accuracy as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before Thus any claimed
truth in it is of questionable legitimacy This isnt to say that The
Bible has no truth in it simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted
Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to interpretation any claim that a passage means one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate
Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books
It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion
Subject Pascals Wager
Typical posting
If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing
but if you dont believe in God and turn out to be incorrect you will go to
hell Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist
Response
This argument is known as Pascals Wager It has several flaws
Firstly it does not indicate which religion to follow Indeed there are
many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there This is often
described as the avoiding the wrong hell problem If a person is a
follower of religion X he may end up in religion Ys version of hell
Secondly the statement that If you believe in God and turn out to be
incorrect you have lost nothing is not true Suppose youre believing in
the wrong God the true God might punish you for your foolishness
Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in
favour of prayer
Another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that
the two possibilities are equally likely or at least that they are of
comparable likelihood If in fact the possibility of there being a God
is close to zero the argument becomes much less persuasive So sadly the
argument is only likely to convince those who believe already
Also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief is based on
evidence with some amount of intuition It is not a matter of will or
costbenefit analysis
Formally speaking the argument consists of four statements
1 One does not know whether God exists
2 Not believing in God is bad for ones eternal soul if God does
exist
3 Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist
4 Therefore it is in ones interest to believe in God
There are two approaches to the argument The first is to view 1 as an
assumption and 2 as a consequence of it One problem with this approach in
the abstract is that it creates information from no information This is
considered invalid in information theory Statement 1 indicates one has no
information about God but statement 2 indicates that beneficial information
can be gained from the absolute lack of information about God This violates
information entropy information has been extracted from no information at
no cost
The alternative approach is to claim that 1 and 2 are both assumptions The
problem with this is that 2 is then basically an assumption which states the
Christian position and only a Christian will agree with that assumption The
argument thus collapses to If you are a Christian it is in your interests
to believe in God a rather vacuous tautology and not the way Pascal
intended the argument to be viewed
The biggest reason why Pascals wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
a wager He will spurn the latter assuming he actually cares at all
whether people believe in him
Subject What is Occams Razor
Typical posting
People keep talking about Occams Razor What is it
Response
William of Occam formulated a principle which has become known as Occams
Razor In its original form it said Do not multiply entities
unnecessarily That is if you can explain something without supposing
the existence of some entity then do so
Nowadays when people refer to Occams Razor they generally express it
more generally for example as Take the simplest solution
The relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations
for what we see around us
1 There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which
came into being as a result of natural processes
2 There is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and
there is also a God who created the universe Clearly this God must be
of nonzero complexity
Given that both explanations fit the facts Occams Razor might suggest
that we should take the simpler of the two solution number one
Unfortunately some argue that there is a third even more simple solution
3 There isnt an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there
We just imagine that there is
This third option leads us logically towards solipsism which many people
find unacceptable
Subject Why its good to believe in Jesus
Typical posting
I want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion
Response
Preaching is not appreciated
Feel free to talk about your religion but please do not write postings that
are on a conversion theme Such postings do not belong on altatheism and
will be rejected from altatheismmoderated try the newsgroup
talkreligionmisc
You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
newsgroup in an attempt to convert you please do unto others as you would
have them do unto you
Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of lengthy
analogies or parables Be aware that atheists have heard of God and know the
basic claims about him if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell
atheists that God exists and brings salvation you may as well not post it
since it tells us nothing we have not been told before
Subject Why I know that God exists
Typical posting
I know from personal experience and prayer that God exists
Response
Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist That evidence varies from person to person
Furthermore without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand many
people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things that they have been
abducted by UFOs visited by the ghost of Elvis and so on
Subject Einstein and God does not play dice
Typical posting
Albert Einstein believed in God Do you think youre cleverer than him
Response
Einstein did once comment that God does not play dice [with the universe]
This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the
Christian God Used this way it is out of context it refers to Einsteins
refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory Furthermore
Einsteins religious background was Jewish rather than Christian
A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the following
I believe in Spinozas God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings
Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in an
objective orderly reality a reality which would not be subject to random
events and which would not be dependent upon the observer He believed that
QM was incomplete and that a better theory would have no need for
statistical interpretations So far no such better theory has been found
and much evidence suggests that it never will be
A longer quote from Einstein appears in Science Philosophy and Religion A
Symposium published by the Conference on Science Philosophy and Religion
in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life Inc New York 1941 In
it he says
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events
the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side
of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature For him
neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
independent cause of natural events To be sure the doctrine of a
personal God interfering with natural events could never be
refuted [italics his] in the real sense by science for this
doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
knowledge has not yet been able to set foot
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives
of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal For a doctrine
which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark
will of necessity lose its effect on mankind with incalculable harm
to human progress In their struggle for the ethical good teachers
of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal
God that is give up that source of fear and hope which in the past
placed such vast power in the hands of priests In their labors they
will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable
of cultivating the Good the True and the Beautiful in humanity
itself This is to be sure a more difficult but an incomparably
more worthy task
Einstein has also said
It was of course a lie what you read about my religous convictions
a lie which is being systematically repeated I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly
If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
science can reveal it
The latter quote is from Albert Einstein The Human Side edited by Helen
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman and published by Princeton University Press
Also from the same book
I do not believe in immortality of the individual and I consider ethics
to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind
it
Of course the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does
not in itself imply that Christianity is false
Subject Everyone worships something
Typical posting
Everyone worships something whether its money power or God
Response
If that is true everyone is a polytheist Theists care just as much about
those things that atheists care about If the atheists reactions to for
example their families amount to worship then so do the theists
Subject Why there must be a causeless cause
Typical posting
Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member so
chains of causes must all have a first element a causeless cause
Response
The set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound but has
no smallest member
Further even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity and
especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by
any particular religion
Subject The universe is so complex it must have been designed
Typical posting
The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God Surely you
dont think all this appeared here just by chance
Response
This is known as the Argument From Design
It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talkorigins for a while
There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here
However the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
socalled Scientific Creationism Furthermore there is much evidence
observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth
The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of
something as incredibly intricate as say a human is so improbable that
surely it cant have come about by chance that surely there must be some
external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos
deliberately
But if human intelligence is so improbable surely the existence of a mind
capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must
be immeasurably more unlikely The approach used to argue in favour of the
existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist
position
This leads us to the familiar theme of If a creator created the universe
what created the creator but with the addition of spiralling
improbability The only way out is to declare that the creator was not
created and just is or was
From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe
just is without introducing a creator Indeed Stephen Hawking in his book
A Brief History of Time explains his theory that the universe is closed
and finite in extent with no beginning or end
The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy in the socalled
Watchmaker Argument One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on
the beach Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker or that it
evolved naturally Of course one assumes a watchmaker Yet like the
watch the universe is intricate and complex so the argument goes the
universe too must have a creator
The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above
those common to all Arguments By Design Firstly a watchmaker creates
watches from preexisting materials whereas God is claimed to have
created the universe from nothing These two sorts of creation are
clearly fundamentally different and the analogy is therefore rather weak
Secondly a watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things in
the world If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear
reactor we wouldnt assume it was created by the watchmaker The argument
would therefore suggest a multitude of creators each responsible for a
different part of creation
Finally in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that
the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered and therefore
stands out from the randomness of nature Yet in the second part of the
argument we start from the position that the universe is obviously not
random but shows elements of order The Watchmaker argument is thus
internally inconsistent
Subject Independent evidence that the Bible is true
Typical posting
The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
evidence For example
Response
The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
evidence
Early versions of Josephuss work are thought not to have mentioned Jesus or
James the extant version discusses John in a nonChristian context Many
scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and James in passing but
that this was expanded by Christian copyists Several reconstructions of
the original text have been published to this effect
Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius about 320
CE It is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate
falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally acknowledged as the
first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity It is Eusebius who is
generally given the title of authorship for this material
Aside from the New Testament the biographical information about Jesus is
more welldocumented For further information please consult the Frequently
Asked Questions file for the newsgroup socreligionchristian
Subject Godels Incompleteness Theorem
Typical posting
Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the
Bible to be both true and complete
Response
Godels First Incompleteness Theorem says that in any consistent formal
system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary
arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be
valid or invalid true or false within that formal system Technically
speaking the system must also be recursive that is there must be a decision
procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal
system
Essentially all such systems can formulate what is known as a Liar
Paradox The classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is This
sentence is false Note that if a proposition is undecidable the formal
system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable
The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined so claims
that Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to
prove or disprove the existence of God are worthless in isolation
One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the
existence of God simply by having the existence of God stated as an axiom
This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof however
It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms
that both atheists and theists agree with It may then be possible to show
that Godels Incompleteness Theorem holds for that system However that
would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that God exists
within the system Furthermore it certainly wouldnt tell us anything about
whether it is possible to prove the existence of God generally
Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about
the actual existence of God the formal systems are just abstractions
Another frequent claim is that Godels Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates
that a religious text the Bible the Book of Mormon or whatever cannot be
both consistent and universally applicable Religious texts are not formal
systems so such claims are nonsense
Subject George Bush on atheism and patriotism
Typical posting
Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens
Response
The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I
Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush on August 27 1988 Sherman
is a fully accredited reporter and was present by invitation as a member of
the press corps The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce
federal disaster relief for Illinois The discussion turned to the
presidential primary
RS What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists
GB I guess Im pretty weak in the atheist community Faith in
God is important to me
RS Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
Americans who are atheists
GB No I dont know that atheists should be considered as citizens
nor should they be considered patriots This is one nation under
God
RS Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
of state and church
GB Yes I support the separation of church and state Im just not
very high on atheists
UPI reported on May 8 1989 that various atheist organizations were
still angry over the remarks
The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27
1989 It can also be found in Free Enquiry magazine Fall 1988 issue
Volume 8 Number 4 page 16
On October 29 1988 Mr Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane
cochairman of the BushQuayle 88 Illinois campaign This concerned a
lawsuit Mr Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 Chicago Illinois from forcing his firstgrade Atheist son to
pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as one nation under God
Bushs phrase The following conversation took place
RS American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday
Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing
EM Its bullshit
RS What is bullshit
EM Everything that American Atheists does Rob is bullshit
RS Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
campaign is on this issue
EM Youre welcome
After Bushs election American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract
his statement On February 21st 1989 C Boyden Gray Counsel to the
President replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by
his original statement and wrote
As you are aware the President is a religious man who neither supports
atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
supported by the government
For further information contact American Atheist Veterans at the American
Atheist Presss Cameron Road address
Subject I know where hell is
Typical posting
I know where Hell is Hell is in Norway
Response
There are several towns called Hell in various countries around the
world including Norway and the USA Whilst this information is mildly
amusing the first time one hears it readers of altatheism are now
getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week
Subject Biblical contradictions wanted
Typical posting
Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions
Response
American Atheist Press publish an atheists handbook detailing Biblical
contradictions See the accompanying posting on Atheist Resources for
details
There is a file containing some Biblical contradictions available from the
archiveservermantiscouk See the contacts file for more information
Subject The USA is a Christian nation
Typical posting
Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers shouldnt the
United States be considered a Christian nation
Response
Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers it is clear
that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation Here are some
quotes there are many more
What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on society
In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
ruins of the civil authority on many instances they have been seen
upholding the thrones of political tyranny in no instance have they been
the guardians of the liberties of the people Rulers who wish to subvert
the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
auxiliaries A just government instituted to secure and perpetuate it
needs them not
James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance 1785
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preservedthe Cross
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced
John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
History I believe furnishes no example of a priestridden people
maintaining a free civil government This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance of which their political as well as religious leaders will
always avail themselves for their own purpose
Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt 1813
I cannot conceive otherwise than that He the Infinite Father expects or
requires no worship or praise from us but that He is even infinitely
above it
Benjamin Franklin from Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion
Nov 20 1728
Subject The USA is not a Christian nation
Typical posting
Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not in any
sense founded upon the Christian religion
Response
No The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty
of Tripoli 8 Stat 154 Treaty Series 358
Article 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws religion or tranquility of Musselmen and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
of the harmony existing between the two countries
The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty collections
such as Charles Bevans Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America 17761949 vol 11 pp 10701080
The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the US Senate on
June 7 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June 10 1797 It was
recently discovered that the Arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the
quotation it lacks Article XI altogether
The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow Consul
General at Algiers a close friend of Thomas Paine and an opponent of
Christianity It is possible that Barlow made up Article XI but since there
is no Arabic version of that article to be found its hard to say
In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the
quotation
End of FAQ Digest
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: "Cruel" (was Re: <Political Atheists?)
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 20
In article <1ql8mdINN674@gap.caltech.edu> keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty. And, the
>Constitution need not define each of the words within. Anyone who doesn't
>know what cruel is can look in the dictionary (and we did).
>
Or, with no dictionary available, they could gain first hand
knowledge by suffering through one of your posts.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re Cruel was Re keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider writes
But we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty And the
Constitution need not define each of the words within Anyone who doesnt
know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did
Or with no dictionary available they could gain first hand
knowledge by suffering through one of your posts
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 14
In article <1qi3l5$jkj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI, which
>ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
>community in the Uk and elsewhere.
>jon.
Grow up, childish propagandist.
Gregg
after prepro From jaegerbuphybuedu Gregg Jaeger
Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
Organization Boston University Physics Department
Lines 14
In article 1qi3l5jkjfidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
I hope an Islamic Bank is something other than BCCI which
ripped off so many small depositors among the Muslim
community in the Uk and elsewhere
jon
Grow up childish propagandist
Gregg
preprocess doc From: cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 42
In <1qjahh$mrs@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer)
writes:
>In article <pww-140493214334@spac-at1-59.rice.edu> pww@spacsun.rice.edu
(Peter Walker) writes:
>#In article <1qie61$fkt@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de>, frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank
>#O'Dwyer) wrote:
>#> Objective morality is morality built from objective values.
>#
>#But where do those objective values come from? How can we measure them?
>#What mediated thair interaction with the real world, a moralon? Or a scalar
>#valuino field?
>Science ("the real world") has its basis in values, not the other way round,
>as you would wish it. If there is no such thing as objective value, then
>science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head.
>Simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said
>to be more useful than a set of tarot cards. You like those conclusions?
>I don't.
>#And how do we know they exist in the first place?
>One assumes objective reality, one doesn't know it.
>--
>Frank O'Dwyer 'I'm not hatching That'
>odwyer@sse.ie from "Hens", by Evelyn Conlon
How do we measure truth, beauty, goodness, love, friendship, trust, honesty,
etc.? If things have no basis in objective fact then aren't we limited in what
we know to be true? Can't we say that we can examples or instances of reason,
but cannot measure reason, or is that semantics?
MAC
--
****************************************************************
Michael A. Cobb
"...and I won't raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs." Champaign-Urbana
-Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
With new taxes and spending cuts we'll still have 310 billion dollar deficits.
after prepro From cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines 42
In 1qjahhmrshorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer
writes
In article pwwspacsunriceedu
Peter Walker writes
In article 1qie61fkthorusapmchpsnide frankD012S658uucp Frank
ODwyer wrote
Objective morality is morality built from objective values
But where do those objective values come from How can we measure them
What mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon Or a scalar
valuino field
Science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round
as you would wish it If there is no such thing as objective value then
science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head
Simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said
to be more useful than a set of tarot cards You like those conclusions
I dont
And how do we know they exist in the first place
One assumes objective reality one doesnt know it
Frank ODwyer Im not hatching That
odwyersseie from Hens by Evelyn Conlon
How do we measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty
etc If things have no basis in objective fact then arent we limited in what
we know to be true Cant we say that we can examples or instances of reason
but cannot measure reason or is that semantics
MAC
Michael A Cobb
and I wont raise taxes on the middle University of Illinois
class to pay for my programs ChampaignUrbana
Bill Clinton 3rd Debate cobbalexialisuiucedu
With new taxes and spending cuts well still have 310 billion dollar deficits
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
In article <19930419.062802.166@almaden.ibm.com> nicho@vnet.ibm.com writes:
|In <1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
|>The Work is privately funded, the DATA belongs to SBV. I don't see
|>either george or Fred, scoriating IBM research division for
|>not releasing data.
| We publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look.
Never said you didn't publish, merely that there is data you don't
publish, and that no-one scoriates you for those cases.
IBM research publishes plenty, it's why you ended up with 2 Nobel
prizes in the last 10 years, but that some projects are deemed
company confidential. ATT Bell Labs, keeps lots of stuff private,
Like Karamankars algorithm. Private moeny is entitled to do what
it pleases, within the bounds of Law, and For all the keepers of the
temple of SCience, should please shove their pointy little heads
up their Conically shaped Posterior Orifices.
pat
who just read the SA article on Karl Fehrabend(sp???)
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Biosphere II
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 22
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
In article 19930419062802166almadenibmcom nichovnetibmcom writes
In 1q77kuav6accessdigexnet Pat writes
The Work is privately funded the DATA belongs to SBV I dont see
either george or Fred scoriating IBM research division for
not releasing data
We publish plenty kiddoyou just have to look
Never said you didnt publish merely that there is data you dont
publish and that noone scoriates you for those cases
IBM research publishes plenty its why you ended up with 2 Nobel
prizes in the last 10 years but that some projects are deemed
company confidential ATT Bell Labs keeps lots of stuff private
Like Karamankars algorithm Private moeny is entitled to do what
it pleases within the bounds of Law and For all the keepers of the
temple of SCience should please shove their pointy little heads
up their Conically shaped Posterior Orifices
pat
who just read the SA article on Karl Fehrabendsp
preprocess doc From: dbm0000@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (David B. Mckissock)
Subject: Blue Ribbon Panel Members Named
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Nntp-Posting-Host: tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Lines: 71
The following press release was distributed April 1 by
NASA Headquarters.
Space Station Redesign Advisory Members Named
Along with Dr. Charles M. Vest, recently named by Vice President
Albert Gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the
Space Station, NASA has announced the names of representatives
from government and industry and academic experts from across the
country to participate in an independent review of the redesign
options being developed by NASA.
"I am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this
important review panel. America's future in science and
technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost
attention and care," said Vest. "We have assembled a diverse
panel of experts that, I believe, will bring the appropriate
measures of insight, integrity and objectivity to this critical
task."
The advisory committee is charged with independently assessing
various redesign options of the space station presented by NASA's
redesign team, and proposing recommendations to improve
efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program. Space
station international partners also are being asked to
participate and will be named at a later date. The advisory
committee will submit its recommendations in June.
Advisory committee members named today include:
Dr. Charles Vest Dr. Bobby Alford
President, MIT Executive VP & Dean of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
Mr. Jay Chabrow Dr. Paul Chu
President, JMR Associates Director, Texas Center for
Superconductivity
University of Houston
Dr. Ed Crawley Dr. John Fabian
Prof of Aero & Astro President & CEO
MIT ANSER
Maj. Gen. James Fain Dr. Edward Fort
Deputy Chief of Staff for Chancellor
Requirements; Headquarters North Carolina AT&T
USAF Materials Command State University
Dr. Mary Good Mr. Frederick Hauck
Senior VP of Technology President, International Technical
Allied Signal, Inc. Underwriters
Dr. Lou Lanzerotti Mr. William Lilly
Chair, Space Sciences National Academy of Public
Board, National Research Administration
Council
Mr. Duane McRuer Dr. Brad Parkinson
President Systems Technology Prof of Astro & Aero
Stanford University
Dr. Robert Seamans Dr. Lee Silver
Former NASA Deputy Admin. W.M. Keck Foundation Professor
for Resource Geology
California Institute of
Technology
Dr. Albert "Bud" Wheelon
Retired CEO
Hughes Aircraft
after prepro From dbm0000tm0006lercnasagov David B Mckissock
Subject Blue Ribbon Panel Members Named
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
NntpPostingHost tm0006lercnasagov
Organization NASA Lewis Research Center Cleveland Ohio
Lines 71
The following press release was distributed April 1 by
NASA Headquarters
Space Station Redesign Advisory Members Named
Along with Dr Charles M Vest recently named by Vice President
Albert Gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the
Space Station NASA has announced the names of representatives
from government and industry and academic experts from across the
country to participate in an independent review of the redesign
options being developed by NASA
I am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this
important review panel Americas future in science and
technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost
attention and care said Vest We have assembled a diverse
panel of experts that I believe will bring the appropriate
measures of insight integrity and objectivity to this critical
task
The advisory committee is charged with independently assessing
various redesign options of the space station presented by NASAs
redesign team and proposing recommendations to improve
efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program Space
station international partners also are being asked to
participate and will be named at a later date The advisory
committee will submit its recommendations in June
Advisory committee members named today include
Dr Charles Vest Dr Bobby Alford
President MIT Executive VP Dean of Medicine
Baylor College of Medicine
Mr Jay Chabrow Dr Paul Chu
President JMR Associates Director Texas Center for
Superconductivity
University of Houston
Dr Ed Crawley Dr John Fabian
Prof of Aero Astro President CEO
MIT ANSER
Maj Gen James Fain Dr Edward Fort
Deputy Chief of Staff for Chancellor
Requirements Headquarters North Carolina ATT
USAF Materials Command State University
Dr Mary Good Mr Frederick Hauck
Senior VP of Technology President International Technical
Allied Signal Inc Underwriters
Dr Lou Lanzerotti Mr William Lilly
Chair Space Sciences National Academy of Public
Board National Research Administration
Council
Mr Duane McRuer Dr Brad Parkinson
President Systems Technology Prof of Astro Aero
Stanford University
Dr Robert Seamans Dr Lee Silver
Former NASA Deputy Admin WM Keck Foundation Professor
for Resource Geology
California Institute of
Technology
Dr Albert Bud Wheelon
Retired CEO
Hughes Aircraft
preprocess doc Subject: Re: PLANETS STILL: IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs
Lines: 27
In article <1993Apr22.213815.12288@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1993Apr22.130923.115397@zeus.calpoly.edu> dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David McAloon) writes:
>
>> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
>
>If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words, I'd swear that
>McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly. I also find the
>choice of newsgroups 'interesting'. Perhaps someone should tell this
>guy that 'sci.astro' doesn't stand for 'astrology'?
>
>It's truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
>are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country. Small
>wonder that the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts and that we
>have the problems that we do.
>
>[In case you haven't gotten it yet, David, I don't think this was
>quite appropriate for a posting to 'sci' groups.]
Was that post for real? I thought it was a late April Fool joke. Some of it
seemed a bit over the top even by McElwaine/Abian/etc standards :-)
--
... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ............ alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ...
"And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time and lost in space" (RHPS)
after prepro Subject Re PLANETS STILL IMAGES ORBIT BY ETHER TWIST
From alienacheronamigansgennz Ross Smith
Distribution world
Organization Muppet Labs
Lines 27
In article 1993Apr2221381512288mksoldsegticom mccallmksoldsegticom fred j mccall 5753539 writes
In 1993Apr22130923115397zeuscalpolyedu dmcaloontubacalpolyedu David McAloon writes
ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE IS GRAVITY
If not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words Id swear that
McElwaine had changed his name and moved to Cal Poly I also find the
choice of newsgroups interesting Perhaps someone should tell this
guy that sciastro doesnt stand for astrology
Its truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what
are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country Small
wonder that the rest of the world thinks were all nuts and that we
have the problems that we do
[In case you havent gotten it yet David I dont think this was
quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups]
Was that post for real I thought it was a late April Fool joke Some of it
seemed a bit over the top even by McElwaineAbianetc standards
Ross Smith Wanganui NZ alienacheronamigansgennz
And crawling on the planets face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time and lost in space RHPS
preprocess doc From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
In article <1psfan$pj0@access.digex.net>, prb@access.digex.com (Pat) writes...
>In article <6APR199314571378@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke) writes:
>|Comet Gehrels 3, which was discovered in 1977, was determined to have
>|been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973. Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e
>|may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
>|make some closeup observations. The orbital trajectory for Comet
>|Shoemaker-Levy is still being determined.
>a
>
>What about positional uncertainties in S-L 1993e?
If Comet Shoemaker-Levy 1993e is in Jovian orbit, and if the comet
is still hanging around when Galileo arrives, then I'm sure it will
be added to the list of targets. We'll have by then over two years
of Earth-based observations to help narrow down the positions of the
pieces of the comet. It probably won't be too much different than
what was done with Gaspra.
>But when they were
>imaging toutatis?
Galileo did not image Toutatis. That came from Earth-based radar.
___ _____ ___
/_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| Ron Baalke | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
| | | | __ \ /| | | | Jet Propulsion Lab |
___| | | | |__) |/ | | |__ M/S 525-3684 Telos | Being cynical never helps
/___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | to correct the situation
|_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ | and causes more aggravation
| instead.
after prepro From baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines 30
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NNTPPostingHost kelvinjplnasagov
NewsSoftware VAXVMS VNEWS 141
In article 1psfanpj0accessdigexnet prbaccessdigexcom Pat writes
In article 6APR199314571378kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov Ron Baalke writes
Comet Gehrels 3 which was discovered in 1977 was determined to have
been in a temporary Jovian orbit from 1970 to 1973 Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e
may remain in orbit around Jupiter long enough to allow Galileo to
make some closeup observations The orbital trajectory for Comet
ShoemakerLevy is still being determined
a
What about positional uncertainties in SL 1993e
If Comet ShoemakerLevy 1993e is in Jovian orbit and if the comet
is still hanging around when Galileo arrives then Im sure it will
be added to the list of targets Well have by then over two years
of Earthbased observations to help narrow down the positions of the
pieces of the comet It probably wont be too much different than
what was done with Gaspra
But when they were
imaging toutatis
Galileo did not image Toutatis That came from Earthbased radar
___ _____ ___
_ ____ \ _ Ron Baalke baalkekelvinjplnasagov
__ \ Jet Propulsion Lab
___ __ __ MS 5253684 Telos Being cynical never helps
___ ___ __ Pasadena CA 91109 to correct the situation
_____ _ _____ and causes more aggravation
instead
preprocess doc From: bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.
Lines: 33
In article <C5L1Ey.Jts@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cobb@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Mike Cobb) writes:
>In <11825@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>
>
>> Actually, my atheism is based on ignorance. Ignorance of the
>> existence of any god. Don't fall into the "atheists don't believe
>> because of their pride" mistake.
>
>How do you know it's based on ignorance, couldn't that be wrong? Why would it
>be wrong
>to fall into the trap that you mentioned?
>
If I'm wrong, god is free at any time to correct my mistake. That
he continues not to do so, while supposedly proclaiming his
undying love for my eternal soul, speaks volumes.
As for the trap, you are not in a position to tell me that I don't
believe in god because I do not wish to. Unless you can know my
motivations better than I do myself, you should believe me when I
say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
him.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
They said that Queens could stay, they blew the Bronx away,
and sank Manhattan out at sea.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after prepro From bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Tektronix Inc Beaverton Or
Lines 33
In article cobbalexialisuiucedu Mike Cobb writes
In 11825viceICOTEKCOM bobbeviceICOTEKCOM Robert Beauchaine writes
Actually my atheism is based on ignorance Ignorance of the
existence of any god Dont fall into the atheists dont believe
because of their pride mistake
How do you know its based on ignorance couldnt that be wrong Why would it
be wrong
to fall into the trap that you mentioned
If Im wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake That
he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his
undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes
As for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that I dont
believe in god because I do not wish to Unless you can know my
motivations better than I do myself you should believe me when I
say that I earnestly searched for god for years and never found
him
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Beauchaine bobbeviceICOTEKCOM
They said that Queens could stay they blew the Bronx away
and sank Manhattan out at sea
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
preprocess doc Subject: Re: Yet more Rushdie [Re: ISLAMIC LAW]
From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
Lines: 27
In article <1993Apr6.151843.15240@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say "Muslim". In
>general, anyone who calls themselves a "Muslim" and does not do or
>outwardly profess
>something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
>is considered to be a Muslim. Thus, one who might do things contrary to
>Islam (through ignorance, for example) does not suddenly _not_ become a
>Muslim. If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
>principles, though, then one does leave Islam.
You and Mr. bobby really need to sit down and decide what
exactly Islam *is* before posting here.
According to 'Zlumber, one is NOT a muslim when one is doing evil.
[ A muslin can do no evil ] According to him, one who does evil is suffering
from "temporary athiesm."
Now, would the members who claim to be "Muslims" get their stories
straight????
--
"Satan and the Angels do not have freewill.
They do what god tells them to do. "
S.N. Mozumder (snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu)
after prepro Subject Re Yet more Rushdie [Re ISLAMIC LAW]
From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Organization Case Western Reserve University
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
Lines 27
In article 1993Apr615184315240monu6ccmonasheduau dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice writes
I should clarify what Muslims usually mean when they say Muslim In
general anyone who calls themselves a Muslim and does not do or
outwardly profess
something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of Islam
is considered to be a Muslim Thus one who might do things contrary to
Islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly _not_ become a
Muslim If one knowingly transgresses Islamic teachings and essential
principles though then one does leave Islam
You and Mr bobby really need to sit down and decide what
exactly Islam is before posting here
According to Zlumber one is NOT a muslim when one is doing evil
[ A muslin can do no evil ] According to him one who does evil is suffering
from temporary athiesm
Now would the members who claim to be Muslims get their stories
straight
Satan and the Angels do not have freewill
They do what god tells them to do
SN Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
preprocess doc From: kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: b64635.student.cwru.edu
In article <1993Apr6.021635.20958@wam.umd.edu> west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
>Fine... THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GOD(tm) (disputed or not, it is)
>
>Dispute that. It won't matter. Prove me wrong.
The Illiad contains more than one word. Ergo: it can not be
the Word of God.
But, if you will humbly agree that it is the WORDS of God, I
will conceed.
:-D
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world.
after prepro From kmr4poCWRUedu Keith M Ryan
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Organization Case Western Reserve University
Lines 26
NNTPPostingHost b64635studentcwruedu
In article 1993Apr602163520958wamumdedu westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
Fine THE ILLIAD IS THE WORD OF GODtm disputed or not it is
Dispute that It wont matter Prove me wrong
The Illiad contains more than one word Ergo it can not be
the Word of God
But if you will humbly agree that it is the WORDS of God I
will conceed
D
One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say Mom because of the love of their mom It makes for more
virile men
Bobby Mozumder snm6394ultbiscritedu
April 4 1993
The one TRUE Muslim left in the world
preprocess doc From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: After 2000 years, can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization: Netcom. San Jose, California
Lines: 91
frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes ...
> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>#frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes ...
>#>Plus questions for you: why do subjectivists/relativists/nihilists get so
>#>het up about the idea that relativism is *better* than objectivism?
>#
>#To the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the
>#truth than is objectivism, it provides more power and ability to
>#control events.
>
>I think you lose the right to talk about THE truth once you say values are
>relative. Accuracy is a value judgement, too. It so happens I agree with
>the substance of what you say below, but it's clear to me that at least
>*some* values are objective. Truth is better than falsehood, peace is
>better than war, education is better than ignorance. We know these things,
>if we know anything.
While I'll agree that these are generally held to be "good things", I
question whether they come very close to being objective values.
Especially considering that at one time or another each has been
viewed as being undesirable. I doubt you could even come up with
anything that could be said to be universally "good" or "bad".
And when I referred to "the truth" I was using the term
hypothetically, realizing full well that there may not even be such a
thing.
>#Assuming, for the moment, that morals _are_ relative, then two
>#relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute
>#truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that
>#produces the desired results.
>
>No they cannot, because they acknowledge up front that THE desired
>results do not exist. That, after all, is the meaning of compromise.
>
>Plus some problems: If the relativists have no values in common, compromise
>is impossible - what happens then? Who, if anyone, is right? What happens
>if one relativist has a value "Never compromise?". A value "plant bombs in
>crowded shopping areas"? After all, if morals are relative, these values
>cannot *meaningfully* be said to be incorrect.
True enough. But they cannot be said to be anything more than
personal morals. One thing notably lacking in most extremists is any
sense of _personal_ accountability - the justification for any
socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some "higher authority"
(aka, absolute moral truth).
>#Assuming that there is an absolute morality, two disagreeing
>#objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right; there
>#is no room for compromise. Once you beleive in absolute morals,
>#you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees
>#with you is amoral.
>
>Untrue. One can accept that one does not know the whole truth. Part
>of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is
>better than rigidity, compromise is better than believing you have a lock
>on morals, etc. In the same way, I can believe in an objective reality
>without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse, or who shot
>JFK.
An objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth?
Interesting notion. :-)
Certainly one can have as one's morals a belief that compromise is
good. But to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most
people do very successfully. I suppose one could hold compromise as
being an absolute moral, but then what happens when someone else
insists on no compromise? How do you compromise on compromising?
>#Given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention,
>#I'd say that compromise seems to be "better".
>
>And I would agree. But it's bloody to pointless to speak of it if it's
>merely a matter of taste. Is your liking for peace any better founded
>than someone else's liking for ice-cream? I'm looking for a way to say
>"yes" to that question, and relativism isn't it.
Almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing
over another, be it morals or consequences, people only consider those
aspects which justify a desired action or belief. In justifying a
commitement to peace I might argue that it lets people live long &
healthy and peaceful lives. While that much may well be true, it is
incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war - killing off the most
agressive member of society, trimming down the population, stimulating
production. The equation is always more complex than presented.
To characterize relative morals as merely following one's own
conscience / desires is to unduly simplify it.
--
Ray Fischer "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth
ray@netcom.com than lies." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
after prepro From raynetcomcom Ray Fischer
Subject Re After 2000 years can we say that Christian Morality is
Organization Netcom San Jose California
Lines 91
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
raynetcomcom Ray Fischer writes
frankD012S658uucp Frank ODwyer writes
Plus questions for you why do subjectivistsrelativistsnihilists get so
het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism
To the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the
truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to
control events
I think you lose the right to talk about THE truth once you say values are
relative Accuracy is a value judgement too It so happens I agree with
the substance of what you say below but its clear to me that at least
some values are objective Truth is better than falsehood peace is
better than war education is better than ignorance We know these things
if we know anything
While Ill agree that these are generally held to be good things I
question whether they come very close to being objective values
Especially considering that at one time or another each has been
viewed as being undesirable I doubt you could even come up with
anything that could be said to be universally good or bad
And when I referred to the truth I was using the term
hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even be such a
thing
Assuming for the moment that morals _are_ relative then two
relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute
truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that
produces the desired results
No they cannot because they acknowledge up front that THE desired
results do not exist That after all is the meaning of compromise
Plus some problems If the relativists have no values in common compromise
is impossible what happens then Who if anyone is right What happens
if one relativist has a value Never compromise A value plant bombs in
crowded shopping areas After all if morals are relative these values
cannot meaningfully be said to be incorrect
True enough But they cannot be said to be anything more than
personal morals One thing notably lacking in most extremists is any
sense of _personal_ accountability the justification for any
socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some higher authority
aka absolute moral truth
Assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing
objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there
is no room for compromise Once you beleive in absolute morals
you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees
with you is amoral
Untrue One can accept that one does not know the whole truth Part
of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is
better than rigidity compromise is better than believing you have a lock
on morals etc In the same way I can believe in an objective reality
without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse or who shot
JFK
An objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth
Interesting notion
Certainly one can have as ones morals a belief that compromise is
good But to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most
people do very successfully I suppose one could hold compromise as
being an absolute moral but then what happens when someone else
insists on no compromise How do you compromise on compromising
Given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention
Id say that compromise seems to be better
And I would agree But its bloody to pointless to speak of it if its
merely a matter of taste Is your liking for peace any better founded
than someone elses liking for icecream Im looking for a way to say
yes to that question and relativism isnt it
Almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing
over another be it morals or consequences people only consider those
aspects which justify a desired action or belief In justifying a
commitement to peace I might argue that it lets people live long
healthy and peaceful lives While that much may well be true it is
incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war killing off the most
agressive member of society trimming down the population stimulating
production The equation is always more complex than presented
To characterize relative morals as merely following ones own
conscience desires is to unduly simplify it
Ray Fischer Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth
raynetcomcom than lies Friedrich Nietzsche
preprocess doc From: John Lussmyer <dragon@angus.mi.org>
Subject: Re: DC-X update???
Organization: Mystery Spot BBS
Reply-To: dragon@angus.mi.org
Lines: 12
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> The first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical
> landing. There will be no payload. DC-X will never carry any kind
Exactly when will the hover test be done, and will any of the TV
networks carry it. I really want to see that...
--
John Lussmyer (dragon@angus.mi.org)
Mystery Spot BBS, Royal Oak, MI --------------------------------------------?--
after prepro From John Lussmyer
Subject Re DCX update
Organization Mystery Spot BBS
ReplyTo dragonangusmiorg
Lines 12
henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
The first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical
landing There will be no payload DCX will never carry any kind
Exactly when will the hover test be done and will any of the TV
networks carry it I really want to see that
John Lussmyer dragonangusmiorg
Mystery Spot BBS Royal Oak MI
preprocess doc From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Subject: Re: Orion drive in vacuum -- how?
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
In article <1993Apr18.014305.28536@sfu.ca>, Leigh Palmer <palmer@sfu.ca> writes:
> In article <C5nGxq.663@zoo.toronto.edu> Henry Spencer,
> henry@zoo.toronto.edu writes:
> >The National Air & Space Museum has both the prototype and the film.
> >When I was there, some years ago, they had the prototype on display and
> >the film continuously repeating.
>
> Great! I'll visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
> month with my wife, who was also working at General Atomic at the time.
> Once again netnews has enriched my life.
Sorry to put a damper on your plans, but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasn't there. Not that I would have known to look for it, of course,
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly.
--
This is news. This is your | Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news. Any questions? | (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
after prepro From pjseuclidJPLNASAGOV Peter J Scott
Subject Re Orion drive in vacuum how
Organization Jet Propulsion Laboratory NASACaltech
Lines 19
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NNTPPostingHost euclidjplnasagov
In article 1993Apr1801430528536sfuca Leigh Palmer writes
In article Henry Spencer
henryzootorontoedu writes
The National Air Space Museum has both the prototype and the film
When I was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and
the film continuously repeating
Great Ill visit the National Air and Space Museum at the end of the
month with my wife who was also working at General Atomic at the time
Once again netnews has enriched my life
Sorry to put a damper on your plans but I was there three weeks ago and
it wasnt there Not that I would have known to look for it of course
but I combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that
would have caught my attention instantly
This is news This is your Peter Scott NASAJPLCaltech
brain on news Any questions pjseuclidjplnasagov
preprocess doc From: mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate)
Subject: Re: Gospel Dating
Lines: 73
Benedikt Rosenau writes:
>The argument goes as follows: Q-oid quotes appear in John, but not in
>the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke. However, they are
>considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such, and
>not an entirely different source.
Assuming you are presenting it accurately, I don't see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion. The material in John (I'm not sure
exactly what is referred to here, but I'll take for granted the similarity
to the Matt./Luke "Q" material) IS different; hence, one could have almost
any relationship between the two, right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus' mouth.
>We are talking date of texts here, not the age of the authors. The usual
>explanation for the time order of Mark, Matthew and Luke does not consider
>their respective ages. It says Matthew has read the text of Mark, and Luke
>that of Matthew (and probably that of Mark).
The version of the "usual theory" I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and "Q". One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew, we wouldn't have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies,
for one thing.
>As it is assumed that John knew the content of Luke's text. The evidence
>for that is not overwhelming, admittedly.
This is the part that is particularly new to me. If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference, I'd be grateful.
>>Unfortunately, I haven't got the info at hand. It was (I think) in the late
>>'70s or early '80s, and it was possibly as old as CE 200.
>When they are from about 200, why do they shed doubt on the order on
>putting John after the rest of the three?
Because it closes up the gap between (supposed) writing and the existing
copy quit a bit. The further away from the original, the more copies can be
written, and therefore survival becomes more probable.
>>And I don't think a "one step removed" source is that bad. If Luke and Mark
>>and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples, then I really
>>cannot believe in the sort of "big transformation from Jesus to gospel" that
>>some people posit. In news reports, one generally gets no better
>>information than this.
>>And if John IS a diciple, then there's nothing more to be said.
>That John was a disciple is not generally accepted. The style and language
>together with the theology are usually used as counterargument.
I'm not really impressed with the "theology" argument. But I'm really
pointing this out as an "if". And as I pointed out earlier, one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter; I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter.
>One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times. Compare that
>to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies.
The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants, which is
not so bad.
>In other words, one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
>and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak.
But the statement of divinity is not in that section, and in any case, it's
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark.
--
C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace,
+ but strife closed in the sod.
mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing:
tove!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
after prepro From mangoecsumdedu Charley Wingate
Subject Re Gospel Dating
Lines 73
Benedikt Rosenau writes
The argument goes as follows Qoid quotes appear in John but not in
the almost codified way they were in Matthew or Luke However they are
considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of Q as such and
not an entirely different source
Assuming you are presenting it accurately I dont see how this argument
really leads to any firm conclusion The material in John Im not sure
exactly what is referred to here but Ill take for granted the similarity
to the MattLuke Q material IS different hence one could have almost
any relationship between the two right up to John getting it straight from
Jesus mouth
We are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors The usual
explanation for the time order of Mark Matthew and Luke does not consider
their respective ages It says Matthew has read the text of Mark and Luke
that of Matthew and probably that of Mark
The version of the usual theory I have heard has Matthew and Luke
independently relying on Mark and Q One would think that if Luke relied
on Matthew we wouldnt have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies
for one thing
As it is assumed that John knew the content of Lukes text The evidence
for that is not overwhelming admittedly
This is the part that is particularly new to me If it were possible that
you could point me to a reference Id be grateful
Unfortunately I havent got the info at hand It was I think in the late
70s or early 80s and it was possibly as old as CE 200
When they are from about 200 why do they shed doubt on the order on
putting John after the rest of the three
Because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing
copy quit a bit The further away from the original the more copies can be
written and therefore survival becomes more probable
And I dont think a one step removed source is that bad If Luke and Mark
and Matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then I really
cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from Jesus to gospel that
some people posit In news reports one generally gets no better
information than this
And if John IS a diciple then theres nothing more to be said
That John was a disciple is not generally accepted The style and language
together with the theology are usually used as counterargument
Im not really impressed with the theology argument But Im really
pointing this out as an if And as I pointed out earlier one cannot make
these arguments about I Peter I see no reason not to accept it as an
authentic letter
One step and one generation removed is bad even in our times Compare that
to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies
The best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is
not so bad
In other words one does not know what the original of Mark did look like
and arguments based on Mark are pretty weak
But the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case its
agreed that the most important epistles predate Mark
C Wingate The peace of God it is no peace
but strife closed in the sod
mangoecsumdedu Yet brothers pray for but one thing
tovemangoe the marvlous peace of God
preprocess doc From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Subject: Re: <Political Atheists?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 76
NNTP-Posting-Host: lloyd.caltech.edu
kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:
>>>How many contridictions do you want to see?
>>Good question. If I claim something is a general trend, then to disprove this,
>>I guess you'd have to show that it was not a general trend.
>No, if you're going to claim something, then it is up to you to prove it.
>Think "Cold Fusion".
Well, I've provided examples to show that the trend was general, and you
(or others) have provided some counterexamples, mostly ones surrounding
mating practices, etc. I don't think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality. And, again, the mating
practices need to be reexamined...
>>Try to find "immoral" non-mating-related activities.
>So you're excluding mating-related-activities from your "natural morality"?
No, but mating practices are a special case. I'll have to think about it
some more.
>>Yes, I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
>>goal of species propogation in mind. But, I am not equating the two
>>as you so think. That is, an objective system isn't necessarily the
>>natural one.
>Are you or are you not the man who wrote:
>"A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
> follow".
Indeed. But, while the natural system is objective, all objective systems
are not the natural one. So, the terms can not be equated. The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones.
>Now, since homosexuality has been observed in most animals (including
>birds and dolphins), are you going to claim that "most animals" have
>the capacity of being immoral?
I don't claim that homosexuality is immoral. It isn't harmful, although
it isn't helpful either (to the mating process). And, when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, don't you mean "bisexuality?"
>>>>Because we can't determine to what end we should be "moral."
>Are you claiming to be a group? "We" usually implies more than one entity.
This is standard jargon. Read any textbook. The "we" forms are used
throughout.
>>Well, I'm saying that these goals are not inherent. That is why they must
>>be postulates, because there is not really a way to determine them
>>otherwise (although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
>>goal--but they are somewhat removed).
>Postulate: To assume; posit.
That's right. The goals themselves aren't inherent.
>I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
>Earth, that the moon is actually made of green cheese, and the stars are
>the portions of Angels that intrudes into three-dimensional reality.
You could, but such would contradict observations.
>I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
>of one side of a triangle, the length of a second side of the triangle, and
>the degree of angle connecting them, I can determine the length of the
>third side.
But a postulate is something that is generally (or always) found to be
true. I don't think your postulate would be valid.
>Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to. In order to assume
>something about your system, you have to be able to show that your postulates
>work.
Yes, and I think the goals of survival and happiness *do* work. You think
they don't? Or are they not good goals?
keith
after prepro From keithccocaltechedu Keith Allan Schneider
Subject Re How many contridictions do you want to see
Good question If I claim something is a general trend then to disprove this
I guess youd have to show that it was not a general trend
No if youre going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it
Think Cold Fusion
Well Ive provided examples to show that the trend was general and you
or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding
mating practices etc I dont think that these few cases are enough to
disprove the general trend of natural morality And again the mating
practices need to be reexamined
Try to find immoral nonmatingrelated activities
So youre excluding matingrelatedactivities from your natural morality
No but mating practices are a special case Ill have to think about it
some more
Yes I think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the
goal of species propogation in mind But I am not equating the two
as you so think That is an objective system isnt necessarily the
natural one
Are you or are you not the man who wrote
A natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals
follow
Indeed But while the natural system is objective all objective systems
are not the natural one So the terms can not be equated The natural
system is a subset of the objective ones
Now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including
birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have
the capacity of being immoral
I dont claim that homosexuality is immoral It isnt harmful although
it isnt helpful either to the mating process And when you say that
homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom dont you mean bisexuality
Because we cant determine to what end we should be moral
Are you claiming to be a group We usually implies more than one entity
This is standard jargon Read any textbook The we forms are used
throughout
Well Im saying that these goals are not inherent That is why they must
be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them
otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural
goalbut they are somewhat removed
Postulate To assume posit
Thats right The goals themselves arent inherent
I can create a theory with a postulate that the Sun revolves around the
Earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are
the portions of Angels that intrudes into threedimensional reality
You could but such would contradict observations
I can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length
of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and
the degree of angle connecting them I can determine the length of the
third side
But a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be
true I dont think your postulate would be valid
Guess which one people are going to be more receptive to In order to assume
something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates
work
Yes and I think the goals of survival and happiness do work You think
they dont Or are they not good goals
keith
preprocess doc From: cbrasted@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Charles Brasted)
Subject: Re: some thoughts.
Organization: The University of Adelaide
Lines: 123
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: adelphi.itd.adelaide.edu.au
Keywords: Dan Bissell
bissda@saturn.wwc.edu (DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL) writes:
> First I want to start right out and say that I'm a Christian. It
>makes sense to be one. Have any of you read Tony Campollo's book- liar,
>lunatic, or the real thing? (I might be a little off on the title, but he
>writes the book. Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity,
>in the process he became a Christian himself.
I assume you are posting to encourage comments - how much history has
Tony Campello read? Not much it seems.
> The arguements he uses I am summing up. The book is about whether
>Jesus was God or not. I know many of you don't believe, but listen to a
>different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
>others have to say.
It is good to hear that there are a few reasonable Christians about.
If only those christian "scientists" would take note.
(In Australia there is a very strong movement, a bunch of christian
scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly
true, and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified
by using the laws of physics. For example, there are a few chaps who are
trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old, and that the
error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed
light has been rapidly decaying over the years, and this has not been
accounted for. :-] )
> The book says that Jesus was either a liar, or he was crazy ( a
>modern day Koresh) or he was actually who he said he was.
Or (of course), that he never existed, and the bible was a story, and was never
intended to become a manifesto for a billion people. Did Tony follow that one
up?
> Some reasons why he wouldn't be a liar are as follows. Who would
>die for a lie? Wouldn't people be able to tell if he was a liar? People
>gathered around him and kept doing it, many gathered from hearing or seeing
>someone who was or had been healed.
Millions of people have "died for a lie". This point is difficult to
substantiate since it is not well defined (a great many religious arguments
work in that way), but consider the many Aztec warriors who sacrificed
themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory
of the Spanish invaders. The list is endless. The Aztecs lost, BTW.
>Call me a fool, but I believe he did heal people.
That is perfectly reasonable, but it is not grounds for me (or anyone)
to become a christian. More to the point, it does not add weight to
the claim that Jesus was the "real thing".
> Niether was he a lunatic. Would more than an entire nation be drawn
>to someone who was crazy. Very doubtful, in fact rediculous. For example
>anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool, logical people see
>this right away.
Have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of Nazi Germany? More to the
point, did Tony mention this? One could hardly call Werner Heisenberg and his
many colleagues fools, or illogical men, their support of Hitler was based
(I presume) upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with
his principles. Obviously my argument is invalid if Tony thought that Hitler
was sane....
> Therefore since he wasn't a liar or a lunatic, he must have been the
>real thing.
Hmmm.... I don't think his arguments warrant the use of a "Therefore..."
> Some other things to note. He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
>the psalms, Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone. This in his betrayal
>and Crucifixion. I don't have my Bible with me at this moment, next time I
>write I will use it.
This is (unfortunately) what alot of religious discussions I have had with
people result in - quoting the bible. The only reasonable way I think
people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of
metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to
present. If someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally, he or
she will end up in all sorts of shit.
Tony's argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe
the events described in the bible took place, but to convince someone,
who thinks the bible is total fiction, that Jesus is real by quoting the
book is totally pointless. For example, in mathematics you cannot say "a is
equal to b because a is equal to b".
> I don't think most people understand what a Christian is.
That would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed
in religious wars, and why there are hundreds of different versions all
claiming to be correct.
It
>is certainly not what I see a lot in churches. Rather I think it
>should be a way of life, and a total sacrafice of everything for God's
>sake. He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
>same. Hey we can't do it, God himself inspires us to turn our lives
>over to him. That's tuff and most people don't want to do it, to be a
>real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at. But
>just like weight lifting or guitar playing, drums, whatever it takes
>time. We don't rush it in one day, Christianity is your whole life.
>It is not going to church once a week, or helping poor people once in
>a while. We box everything into time units. Such as work at this
>time, sports, Tv, social life. God is above these boxes and should be
>carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
>ourselves.
I think if you posted this part to alt.religion you would get more flames
than here :-). I have never really understood why the emotional sentiments
of a stranger should be of interest to other people.
Someone famous said that there two evils in life, polititians and churchs, one
rules by fear of the living, the other by fear of the dead. If I am pressed I
could probably find the exact quotation.
Cheers,
Charles.
after prepro From cbrastedphysicsadelaideeduau Charles Brasted
Subject Re some thoughts
Organization The University of Adelaide
Lines 123
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost adelphiitdadelaideeduau
Keywords Dan Bissell
bissdasaturnwwcedu DAN LAWRENCE BISSELL writes
First I want to start right out and say that Im a Christian It
makes sense to be one Have any of you read Tony Campollos book liar
lunatic or the real thing I might be a little off on the title but he
writes the book Anyway he was part of an effort to destroy Christianity
in the process he became a Christian himself
I assume you are posting to encourage comments how much history has
Tony Campello read Not much it seems
The arguements he uses I am summing up The book is about whether
Jesus was God or not I know many of you dont believe but listen to a
different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what
others have to say
It is good to hear that there are a few reasonable Christians about
If only those christian scientists would take note
In Australia there is a very strong movement a bunch of christian
scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly
true and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified
by using the laws of physics For example there are a few chaps who are
trying to prove that the age of the universe is 6000 years old and that the
error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed
light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been
accounted for ]
The book says that Jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a
modern day Koresh or he was actually who he said he was
Or of course that he never existed and the bible was a story and was never
intended to become a manifesto for a billion people Did Tony follow that one
up
Some reasons why he wouldnt be a liar are as follows Who would
die for a lie Wouldnt people be able to tell if he was a liar People
gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing
someone who was or had been healed
Millions of people have died for a lie This point is difficult to
substantiate since it is not well defined a great many religious arguments
work in that way but consider the many Aztec warriors who sacrificed
themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory
of the Spanish invaders The list is endless The Aztecs lost BTW
Call me a fool but I believe he did heal people
That is perfectly reasonable but it is not grounds for me or anyone
to become a christian More to the point it does not add weight to
the claim that Jesus was the real thing
Niether was he a lunatic Would more than an entire nation be drawn
to someone who was crazy Very doubtful in fact rediculous For example
anyone who is drawn to David Koresh is obviously a fool logical people see
this right away
Have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of Nazi Germany More to the
point did Tony mention this One could hardly call Werner Heisenberg and his
many colleagues fools or illogical men their support of Hitler was based
I presume upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with
his principles Obviously my argument is invalid if Tony thought that Hitler
was sane
Therefore since he wasnt a liar or a lunatic he must have been the
real thing
Hmmm I dont think his arguments warrant the use of a Therefore
Some other things to note He fulfilled loads of prophecies in
the psalms Isaiah and elsewhere in 24 hrs alone This in his betrayal
and Crucifixion I dont have my Bible with me at this moment next time I
write I will use it
This is unfortunately what alot of religious discussions I have had with
people result in quoting the bible The only reasonable way I think
people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of
metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to
present If someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally he or
she will end up in all sorts of shit
Tonys argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe
the events described in the bible took place but to convince someone
who thinks the bible is total fiction that Jesus is real by quoting the
book is totally pointless For example in mathematics you cannot say a is
equal to b because a is equal to b
I dont think most people understand what a Christian is
That would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed
in religious wars and why there are hundreds of different versions all
claiming to be correct
It
is certainly not what I see a lot in churches Rather I think it
should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for Gods
sake He loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the
same Hey we cant do it God himself inspires us to turn our lives
over to him Thats tuff and most people dont want to do it to be a
real Christian would be something for the strong to persevere at But
just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes
time We dont rush it in one day Christianity is your whole life
It is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in
a while We box everything into time units Such as work at this
time sports Tv social life God is above these boxes and should be
carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for
ourselves
I think if you posted this part to altreligion you would get more flames
than here I have never really understood why the emotional sentiments
of a stranger should be of interest to other people
Someone famous said that there two evils in life polititians and churchs one
rules by fear of the living the other by fear of the dead If I am pressed I
could probably find the exact quotation
Cheers
Charles
preprocess doc From: nancyo@shnext15.ucslabs.sfu.ca (Nancy Patricia O'Connor)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 39
In article <1993Apr15.180024.19308@wam.umd.edu>
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
+Last night, while watching the 2a.m. rebroadcast of Jerry Springer (a
+talk show) I heard this Jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist.
+The focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the Jewish
+religion, and why.
[some stuff deleted]
+Interesting (and scary) no? They went on to say how the Jews had
+killed their god, and how in the end of time that all the races would
+go to their homelands (of course, they would remain in America, which
+is New Jeruselem, as it says in Gen 2??? (what another kid said) but
+the rest of the races would go home) and then the great battle or plague
+or whatever Revel. says would happen, and the jews would be killed.
+
+The most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is Catholic,
+and had the KJV of the Bible on his desk. He immediatly opened it up
+and began to search for the quoted passages (Gen, Rev, and John) to
+look for himself, and couldn't find what they said they saw. I don't
+know
I saw this show a while back, and when I heard these kids
quote the Bible to justify their racist claims, I looked up
that quote about Jesus hating Jews (since Jesus himself was a
Jew, my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim).
The jist of the passage (and I am sorry but I can't recall
which passage it was exactly) was that Jesus was condemning
the Pharisees for being corrupt.
Of course, the Pharisees were Jewish too, but it wasn't Jews
as a whole that Jesus was condemning, just the powers that be.
--
Nancy O'Connor +
Psychology undergrad + The opinions I express
Simon Fraser University, + are my own.
Burnaby, B.C. +
CANADA +
after prepro From nancyoshnext15ucslabssfuca Nancy Patricia OConnor
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC Canada
Lines 39
In article 1993Apr1518002419308wamumdedu
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
Last night while watching the 2am rebroadcast of Jerry Springer a
talk show I heard this Jewel of a thought from a 12 year old racist
The focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the Jewish
religion and why
[some stuff deleted]
Interesting and scary no They went on to say how the Jews had
killed their god and how in the end of time that all the races would
go to their homelands of course they would remain in America which
is New Jeruselem as it says in Gen 2 what another kid said but
the rest of the races would go home and then the great battle or plague
or whatever Revel says would happen and the jews would be killed
The most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is Catholic
and had the KJV of the Bible on his desk He immediatly opened it up
and began to search for the quoted passages Gen Rev and John to
look for himself and couldnt find what they said they saw I dont
know
I saw this show a while back and when I heard these kids
quote the Bible to justify their racist claims I looked up
that quote about Jesus hating Jews since Jesus himself was a
Jew my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim
The jist of the passage and I am sorry but I cant recall
which passage it was exactly was that Jesus was condemning
the Pharisees for being corrupt
Of course the Pharisees were Jewish too but it wasnt Jews
as a whole that Jesus was condemning just the powers that be
Nancy OConnor
Psychology undergrad The opinions I express
Simon Fraser University are my own
Burnaby BC
CANADA
preprocess doc From: steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: DC-X Rollout Report
Article-I.D.: topaz.STEINLY.93Apr6170313
Distribution: sci
Organization: Lick Observatory/UCO
Lines: 29
NNTP-Posting-Host: topaz.ucsc.edu
In-reply-to: buenneke@monty.rand.org's message of Tue, 6 Apr 1993 22:34:39 GMT
In article <C532v3.Ftn.1@cs.cmu.edu> buenneke@monty.rand.org (Richard Buenneke) writes:
McDonnell Douglas rolls out DC-X
...
SSTO research remains cloudy. The SDI Organization -- which paid $60
million for the DC-X -- can't itself afford to fund full development of a
follow-on vehicle. To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
This is a little peculiar way of putting it, SDIO's budget this year
was, what, $3-4 billion? They _could_ fund all of the DC development
out of one years budget - of course they do have other irons in the
fire ;-) and launcher development is not their primary purpose, but
the DC development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money
as by diverting the comparable STS ops budget...
- oh, and before the flames start. I applaud the SDIO for funding DC-X
devlopment and I hope it works, and, no, launcher development is not
NASAs primary goal either, IMHO they are supposed to provide the
enabling technology research for others to do launcher development,
and secondarily operate such launchers as they require - but that's
just me.
| Steinn Sigurdsson |I saw two shooting stars last night |
| Lick Observatory |I wished on them but they were only satellites |
| steinly@lick.ucsc.edu |Is it wrong to wish on space hardware? |
| "standard disclaimer" |I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care - B.B. 1983 |
after prepro From steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson
Subject Re DCX Rollout Report
ArticleID topazSTEINLY93Apr6170313
Distribution sci
Organization Lick ObservatoryUCO
Lines 29
NNTPPostingHost topazucscedu
Inreplyto buennekemontyrandorgs message of Tue 6 Apr 1993 223439 GMT
In article buennekemontyrandorg Richard Buenneke writes
McDonnell Douglas rolls out DCX
SSTO research remains cloudy The SDI Organization which paid 60
million for the DCX cant itself afford to fund full development of a
followon vehicle To get the necessary hundreds of millions required for
This is a little peculiar way of putting it SDIOs budget this year
was what 34 billion They _could_ fund all of the DC development
out of one years budget of course they do have other irons in the
fire and launcher development is not their primary purpose but
the DC development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money
as by diverting the comparable STS ops budget
oh and before the flames start I applaud the SDIO for funding DCX
devlopment and I hope it works and no launcher development is not
NASAs primary goal either IMHO they are supposed to provide the
enabling technology research for others to do launcher development
and secondarily operate such launchers as they require but thats
just me
Steinn Sigurdsson I saw two shooting stars last night
Lick Observatory I wished on them but they were only satellites
steinlylickucscedu Is it wrong to wish on space hardware
standard disclaimer I wish I wish I wish youd care BB 1983
preprocess doc From: rdl1@ukc.ac.uk (R.D.Lorenz)
Subject: Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: eagle.ukc.ac.uk
>Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
>for sounding rockets?
Well, first you work out how much cold gas you need, then make the
tanks big enough.
Working out how much cold gas is another problem, depending on
vehicle configuration, flight duration, thruster Isp (which couples
into storage pressure, which may be a factor in selecting tank
wall thickness etc.)
Ralph Lorenz
Unit for Space Sciences
University of Kent, UK
after prepro From rdl1ukcacuk RDLorenz
Subject Cold Gas tanks for Sounding Rockets
Organization Computing Lab University of Kent at Canterbury UK
Lines 14
NntpPostingHost eagleukcacuk
Does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks
for sounding rockets
Well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the
tanks big enough
Working out how much cold gas is another problem depending on
vehicle configuration flight duration thruster Isp which couples
into storage pressure which may be a factor in selecting tank
wall thickness etc
Ralph Lorenz
Unit for Space Sciences
University of Kent UK
preprocess doc From: sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: islamic authority over women
Organization: Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines: 21
In article <1993Apr19.120352.1574@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) wrote:
>> The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
> believer and who may be "faking it". This is something known only by
> the person him/herself (and God). Your assumption that anyone who
> _claims_ to be a "believer" _is_ a "believer" is not necessarily true.
So that still leaves the door totally open for Khomeini, Hussein
et rest. They could still be considered true Muslims, and you can't
judge them, because this is something between God and the person.
You have to apply your rule as well with atheists/agnostics, you
don't know their belief, this is something between them and God.
So why the hoopla about Khomeini not being a real Muslim, and the
hoopla about atheists being not real human beings?
Cheers,
Kent
---
sandvik@newton.apple.com. ALink: KSAND -- Private activities on the net.
after prepro From sandviknewtonapplecom Kent Sandvik
Subject Re islamic authority over women
Organization Cookamunga Tourist Bureau
Lines 21
In article 1993Apr191203521574monu6ccmonasheduau
dariceyoyoccmonasheduau Fred Rice wrote
The problem with your argument is that you do not _know_ who is a _real_
believer and who may be faking it This is something known only by
the person himherself and God Your assumption that anyone who
_claims_ to be a believer _is_ a believer is not necessarily true
So that still leaves the door totally open for Khomeini Hussein
et rest They could still be considered true Muslims and you cant
judge them because this is something between God and the person
You have to apply your rule as well with atheistsagnostics you
dont know their belief this is something between them and God
So why the hoopla about Khomeini not being a real Muslim and the
hoopla about atheists being not real human beings
Cheers
Kent
sandviknewtonapplecom ALink KSAND Private activities on the net
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Concerning God's Morality (long)
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 56
<1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1993Apr5.084042.822@batman.bmd.trw.com>
jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes:
> > Sorry, but there are no supernatural
> > forces necessary to create a pathogen. You are saying, "Since
> > diseases are bad, the bad entity must have created it." So
> > what would you say about acid rain, meteors falling from the
> > sky, volcanoes, earthquakes, and other QUOTE UNQUOTE "Acts
> > of God?"
>
> I would say that they are not "acts of God" but natural
> occurrences.
It amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not
the result of the natural process of evolution (but rather an "act of God")
and then in the same post say that these other processes (volcanos et al.)
are natural occurrences. Who gave YOU the right to choose what things are
natural processes and what are direct acts of God? How do you know that
God doesn't cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose
in mind? It would certainly go along with the sadistic nature I've seen in
the bible.
> >>Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
> >>disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since
> >>humanity forsook God's protection. If we choose to live apart from
> >>God's law (humanity collectively), then it should come as no surprise
> >>that there are adverse consequences to our (collective) action. One
> >>of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which
> >>inevitably result in an entropic universe.
> >
> > May I ask, where is this 'collective' bullcrap coming from?
>
> By "collective" I was referring to the idea that God works with
> humanity on two levels, individually and collectively. If mankind
> as a whole decides to undertake a certain action (the majority of
> mankind), then God will allow the consequences of that action to
> affect mankind as a whole.
Adam & Eve (TWO PEOPLE), even tho they had the honor (or so you christians
claim) of being the first two, definitely do NOT represent a majority in
the billions and trillions (probably more) of people that have come after
them. Perhaps they were the majority then, but *I* (and YOU) weren't
around to vote, and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to
do with that tree. But your god never asked us. He just assumes that if
you have two bad people then they ALL must be bad. Hmm. Sounds like the
same kind of false generalization that I see many of the theists posting
here resorting to. So THAT's where they get it... shoulda known.
> Jim B.
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Concerning Gods Morality long
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 56
1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo 1993Apr5084042822batmanbmdtrwcom
jbrownbatmanbmdtrwcom writes
Sorry but there are no supernatural
forces necessary to create a pathogen You are saying Since
diseases are bad the bad entity must have created it So
what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the
sky volcanoes earthquakes and other QUOTE UNQUOTE Acts
of God
I would say that they are not acts of God but natural
occurrences
It amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not
the result of the natural process of evolution but rather an act of God
and then in the same post say that these other processes volcanos et al
are natural occurrences Who gave YOU the right to choose what things are
natural processes and what are direct acts of God How do you know that
God doesnt cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose
in mind It would certainly go along with the sadistic nature Ive seen in
the bible
Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of
disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since
humanity forsook Gods protection If we choose to live apart from
Gods law humanity collectively then it should come as no surprise
that there are adverse consequences to our collective action One
of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which
inevitably result in an entropic universe
May I ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from
By collective I was referring to the idea that God works with
humanity on two levels individually and collectively If mankind
as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of
mankind then God will allow the consequences of that action to
affect mankind as a whole
Adam Eve TWO PEOPLE even tho they had the honor or so you christians
claim of being the first two definitely do NOT represent a majority in
the billions and trillions probably more of people that have come after
them Perhaps they were the majority then but I and YOU werent
around to vote and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to
do with that tree But your god never asked us He just assumes that if
you have two bad people then they ALL must be bad Hmm Sounds like the
same kind of false generalization that I see many of the theists posting
here resorting to So THATs where they get it shoulda known
Jim B
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
preprocess doc From: karner@austin.ibm.com (F. Karner)
Subject: Re: Jews can't hide from keith@cco.
Originator: frank@karner.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Lines: 50
In article <1pj2b6$aaa@fido.asd.sgi.com>, livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> In article <1993Apr3.033446.10669@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
> |> In article <1pint5$1l4@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
> |> >
> |> Deletions...
> |> Er, Jon, what Ken said was:
> |>
> |> There have previously been people like you in your country. Unfortunately,
> |> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> |> most Jews did not survive.
> |>
> |> That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi.
>
> Hitler and the Nazis didn't spring fully formed from the forehead
> of Athena. They didn't invent anti-semitism. They built on a
> foundation of anti-semitism that was already present in Germany.
> This foundation of anti-semitism was laid down, not by the Nazis,
> but by the people I listed, and also by hundreds of years of unthinking,
> knee-jerk bigotry, on the part of perfectly ordinary people, and, of
> course, their pastors and priests.
>
> What we have to worry about today is not whether some Hollywood
> Hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the German
> stage in one unprepared step, but whether those same bedrock foundations
> of anti-semitism are being laid down, little by little, in Germany,
> as we speak.
>
> And if so, they will be laid down, not by Hitlers and Himmlers, who
> will come later, but by "people like" the poster in question. The
> people who think that casual anti-semitism is acceptable, or even fun.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Deletions...
> I did. Now may I suggest, with the greatest possible respect, that
> you go read some history?
>
> jon.
So, you consider the german poster's remark anti-semitic? Perhaps you
imply that anyone in Germany who doesn't agree with israely policy in a
nazi? Pray tell, how does it even qualify as "casual anti-semitism"?
If the term doesn't apply, why then bring it up?
Your own bigotry is shining through.
--
DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
solely and do not represent my employer in any way.
F. A. Karner AIX Technical Support | karner@austin.vnet.ibm.com
after prepro From karneraustinibmcom F Karner
Subject Re Jews cant hide from keithcco
Originator frankkarneraustinibmcom
Organization IBM Advanced Workstation Division
Lines 50
In article 1pj2b6aaafidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
In article 1993Apr303344610669bmerh85bnrca dgrahambmers30bnrca Douglas Graham writes
In article 1pint51l4fidoasdsgicom liveseysolntzewpdsgicom Jon Livesey writes
Deletions
Er Jon what Ken said was
There have previously been people like you in your country Unfortunately
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
most Jews did not survive
That sure sounds to me like Ken is accusing the guy of being a Nazi
Hitler and the Nazis didnt spring fully formed from the forehead
of Athena They didnt invent antisemitism They built on a
foundation of antisemitism that was already present in Germany
This foundation of antisemitism was laid down not by the Nazis
but by the people I listed and also by hundreds of years of unthinking
kneejerk bigotry on the part of perfectly ordinary people and of
course their pastors and priests
What we have to worry about today is not whether some Hollywood
Hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the German
stage in one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations
of antisemitism are being laid down little by little in Germany
as we speak
And if so they will be laid down not by Hitlers and Himmlers who
will come later but by people like the poster in question The
people who think that casual antisemitism is acceptable or even fun
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Deletions
I did Now may I suggest with the greatest possible respect that
you go read some history
jon
So you consider the german posters remark antisemitic Perhaps you
imply that anyone in Germany who doesnt agree with israely policy in a
nazi Pray tell how does it even qualify as casual antisemitism
If the term doesnt apply why then bring it up
Your own bigotry is shining through
DISCLAIMER The opinions expressed in this posting are mine
solely and do not represent my employer in any way
F A Karner AIX Technical Support karneraustinvnetibmcom
preprocess doc From: mas@Cadence.COM (Masud Khan)
Subject: Re: The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Lines: 48
In article <16BAFA9D9.I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de> I3150101@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Benedikt Rosenau) writes:
>
>
>Yes, but, fortunately, religions have been replaced by systems
>that value Human Rights higher.
Secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life,
Islam places the rights of society and every member in it above
the rights of the individual, this is what I call true human rights.
>
>By the way, do you actually support the claim of precedence of Islamic
>Law? In case you do, what about the laws of other religions?
As a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land I am bound by the laws of the land
I live in, but I do not disregard Islamic Law it still remains a part of my
life. If the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent
that I am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then I must
leave the land. So in a way Islamic law does take precendence over secular law
but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too.
In an Islamic state (one ruled by a Khaliphate) religions other than Islam
are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don't affect
the genral population and don't come into direct conflict with state
laws, Dhimmis (non-Muslim population) are exempt from most Islamic laws
on religion, such as fighting in a Jihad, giving Zakat (alms giving)
etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as Military
protection and if they are poor they will receive Zakat.
>
>If not, what has it got to do with Rushdie? And has anyone reliable
>information if he hadn't left Islam according to Islamic law?
>Or is the burden of proof on him?
> Benedikt
After the Fatwa didn't Rushdie re-affirm his faith in Islam, didn't
he go thru' a very public "conversion" to Islam? If so he is binding
himself to Islamic Laws. He has to publicly renounce in his belief in Islam
so the burden is on him.
Mas
--
C I T I Z E N +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
_____ _____ | C A D E N C E D E S I G N S Y S T E M S Inc. |
\_/ | Masud Ahmed Khan mas@cadence.com All My Opinions|
_____/ \_____ +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
after prepro From masCadenceCOM Masud Khan
Subject Re The Inimitable Rushdie
Organization Cadence Design Systems Inc
Lines 48
In article 16BAFA9D9I3150101dbstu1rztubsde I3150101dbstu1rztubsde Benedikt Rosenau writes
Yes but fortunately religions have been replaced by systems
that value Human Rights higher
Secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life
Islam places the rights of society and every member in it above
the rights of the individual this is what I call true human rights
By the way do you actually support the claim of precedence of Islamic
Law In case you do what about the laws of other religions
As a Muslim living in a nonMuslim land I am bound by the laws of the land
I live in but I do not disregard Islamic Law it still remains a part of my
life If the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent
that I am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then I must
leave the land So in a way Islamic law does take precendence over secular law
but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too
In an Islamic state one ruled by a Khaliphate religions other than Islam
are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they dont affect
the genral population and dont come into direct conflict with state
laws Dhimmis nonMuslim population are exempt from most Islamic laws
on religion such as fighting in a Jihad giving Zakat alms giving
etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as Military
protection and if they are poor they will receive Zakat
If not what has it got to do with Rushdie And has anyone reliable
information if he hadnt left Islam according to Islamic law
Or is the burden of proof on him
Benedikt
After the Fatwa didnt Rushdie reaffirm his faith in Islam didnt
he go thru a very public conversion to Islam If so he is binding
himself to Islamic Laws He has to publicly renounce in his belief in Islam
so the burden is on him
Mas
C I T I Z E N
_____ _____ C A D E N C E D E S I G N S Y S T E M S Inc
\_ Masud Ahmed Khan mascadencecom All My Opinions
_____ \_____
preprocess doc From: mcgoy@unicorn.acs.ttu.edu (David McGaughey)
Subject: Re: THE POPE IS JEWISH!
Organization: Texas Tech University
Lines: 12
west@next02cville.wam.umd.edu (Stilgar) writes:
> THE POPE IS JEWISH
I always thought that the Pope was a bear.
You know, because of that little saying:
Does a bear shit in the woods?
Is the Pope Catholic?
There MUST be SOME connection between those two lines!
after prepro From mcgoyunicornacsttuedu David McGaughey
Subject Re THE POPE IS JEWISH
Organization Texas Tech University
Lines 12
westnext02cvillewamumdedu Stilgar writes
THE POPE IS JEWISH
I always thought that the Pope was a bear
You know because of that little saying
Does a bear shit in the woods
Is the Pope Catholic
There MUST be SOME connection between those two lines
preprocess doc From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Why not give $1 billion to first year-long moon residents?
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
<1993Apr20.001428.724@indyvax.iupui.edu>
Lines: 14
In <1993Apr20.001428.724@indyvax.iupui.edu> tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>Let's play a game - What would be a reasonable reward? What companies would
>have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat? Just where in the
>budget would the reward come from? Should there be a time limit? Would a
>straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say . . .
>exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years? You get the idea.
A cash award is OK. A time limit would be nice. You can't give away
mining rights (assuming there's anything to mine) because you don't own
them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
.sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.
Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)
after prepro From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Why not give 1 billion to first yearlong moon residents
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
1993Apr20001428724indyvaxiupuiedu
Lines 14
In 1993Apr20001428724indyvaxiupuiedu tffreebaindyvaxiupuiedu writes
Lets play a game What would be a reasonable reward What companies would
have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat Just where in the
budget would the reward come from Should there be a time limit Would a
straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say
exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years You get the idea
A cash award is OK A time limit would be nice You cant give away
mining rights assuming theres anything to mine because you dont own
them
sig files are like strings every yoyos got one
Greg Nicholls nichovnetibmcom business or
nichoolympusdemoncouk private
preprocess doc From: prb@access.digex.com (Pat)
Subject: Re: Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts.
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.net
Some birds require constant management for survival. Pointing a sensor at
the sun, even when powered down, may burn it out. Pointing a
parabolic antenna at Sol, from venus orbit may trash the
foci elements.
Even if you let teh bird drift, it may get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena.
pat
after prepro From prbaccessdigexcom Pat
Subject Re Keeping Spacecraft on after Funding Cuts
Organization Express Access Online Communications USA
Lines 11
Distribution world
NNTPPostingHost accessdigexnet
Some birds require constant management for survival Pointing a sensor at
the sun even when powered down may burn it out Pointing a
parabolic antenna at Sol from venus orbit may trash the
foci elements
Even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some
cosmic phenomena
pat
preprocess doc From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Subject: Space FAQ 06/15 - Constants and Equations
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Article-I.D.: cs.constants_733694246
Expires: 6 May 1993 19:57:26 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 189
Supersedes: <constants_730956482@cs.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahler.cs.unc.edu
Archive-name: space/constants
Last-modified: $Date: 93/04/01 14:39:04 $
CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS
This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer. Additions would be
appreciated.
Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
blue-skying purposes.
Unix systems provide the 'units' program, useful in converting
between different systems (metric/English, etc.)
NUMBERS
7726 m/s (8000) -- Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
3075 m/s (3000) -- Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km (geosync)
6371 km (6400) -- Mean radius of Earth
6378 km (6400) -- Equatorial radius of Earth
1738 km (1700) -- Mean radius of Moon
5.974e24 kg (6e24) -- Mass of Earth
7.348e22 kg (7e22) -- Mass of Moon
1.989e30 kg (2e30) -- Mass of Sun
3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
4.903e12 m^3/s^2 (5e12) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
1.327e20 m^3/s^2 (13e19) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
384401 km ( 4e5) -- Mean Earth-Moon distance
1.496e11 m (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)
1 megaton (MT) TNT = about 4.2e15 J or the energy equivalent of
about .05 kg (50 gm) of matter. Ref: J.R Williams, "The Energy Level
of Things", Air Force Special Weapons Center (ARDC), Kirtland Air
Force Base, New Mexico, 1963. Also see "The Effects of Nuclear
Weapons", compiled by S. Glasstone and P.J. Dolan, published by the
US Department of Defense (obtain from the GPO).
EQUATIONS
Where d is distance, v is velocity, a is acceleration, t is time.
Additional more specialized equations are available from:
ames.arc.nasa.gov:pub/SPACE/FAQ/MoreEquations
For constant acceleration
d = d0 + vt + .5at^2
v = v0 + at
v^2 = 2ad
Acceleration on a cylinder (space colony, etc.) of radius r and
rotation period t:
a = 4 pi**2 r / t^2
For circular Keplerian orbits where:
Vc = velocity of a circular orbit
Vesc = escape velocity
M = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
G = Gravitational constant (defined below)
u = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
K = -G * M / 2 / a
r = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
V = orbital velocity
P = orbital period
a = semimajor axis of orbit
Vc = sqrt(M * G / r)
Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
V^2 = u/a
P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
K = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)
The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.
Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
circular orbit:
delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)
Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).
GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
Re = radius of the earth
Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.
Classical rocket equation, where
dv = change in velocity
Isp = specific impulse of engine
Ve = exhaust velocity
x = reaction mass
m1 = rocket mass excluding reaction mass
g = 9.80665 m / s^2
Ve = Isp * g
dv = Ve * ln((m1 + x) / m1)
= Ve * ln((final mass) / (initial mass))
Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)
t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
v = c * tanh(a*t/c)
Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR:
at/c = Ve/c * ln(MR), or
t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(Ve/c * ln(MR))
d = c**2/a * (cosh(Ve/C * ln(MR)) - 1)
v = c * tanh(Ve/C * ln(MR))
Converting from parallax to distance:
d (in parsecs) = 1 / p (in arc seconds)
d (in astronomical units) = 206265 / p
Miscellaneous
f=ma -- Force is mass times acceleration
w=fd -- Work (energy) is force times distance
Atmospheric density varies as exp(-mgz/kT) where z is altitude, m is
molecular weight in kg of air, g is local acceleration of gravity, T
is temperature, k is Bolztmann's constant. On Earth up to 100 km,
d = d0*exp(-z*1.42e-4)
where d is density, d0 is density at 0km, is approximately true, so
d@12km (40000 ft) = d0*.18
d@9 km (30000 ft) = d0*.27
d@6 km (20000 ft) = d0*.43
d@3 km (10000 ft) = d0*.65
Atmospheric scale height Dry lapse rate
(in km at emission level) (K/km)
------------------------- --------------
Earth 7.5 9.8
Mars 11 4.4
Venus 4.9 10.5
Titan 18 1.3
Jupiter 19 2.0
Saturn 37 0.7
Uranus 24 0.7
Neptune 21 0.8
Triton 8 1
Titius-Bode Law for approximating planetary distances:
R(n) = 0.4 + 0.3 * 2^N Astronomical Units (N = -infinity for
Mercury, 0 for Venus, 1 for Earth, etc.)
This fits fairly well except for Neptune.
CONSTANTS
6.62618e-34 J-s (7e-34) -- Planck's Constant "h"
1.054589e-34 J-s (1e-34) -- Planck's Constant / (2 * PI), "h bar"
1.3807e-23 J/K (1.4e-23) - Boltzmann's Constant "k"
5.6697e-8 W/m^2/K (6e-8) -- Stephan-Boltzmann Constant "sigma"
6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant "G"
0.0029 m K (3e-3) -- Wien's Constant "sigma(W)"
3.827e26 W (4e26) -- Luminosity of Sun
1370 W / m^2 (1400) -- Solar Constant (intensity at 1 AU)
6.96e8 m (7e8) -- radius of Sun
1738 km (2e3) -- radius of Moon
299792458 m/s (3e8) -- speed of light in vacuum "c"
9.46053e15 m (1e16) -- light year
206264.806 AU (2e5) -- \
3.2616 light years (3) -- --> parsec
3.0856e16 m (3e16) -- /
Black Hole radius (also called Schwarzschild Radius):
2GM/c^2, where G is Newton's Grav Constant, M is mass of BH,
c is speed of light
Things to add (somebody look them up!)
Basic rocketry numbers & equations
Aerodynamical stuff
Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
velocities.
Non-circular cases?
NEXT: FAQ #7/15 - Astronomical Mnemonics
after prepro From leechcsuncedu Jon Leech
Subject Space FAQ 0615 Constants and Equations
Keywords Frequently Asked Questions
ArticleID csconstants_733694246
Expires 6 May 1993 195726 GMT
Distribution world
Organization University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
Lines 189
Supersedes
NNTPPostingHost mahlercsuncedu
Archivename spaceconstants
Lastmodified Date 930401 143904
CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS
This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer Additions would be
appreciated
Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
blueskying purposes
Unix systems provide the units program useful in converting
between different systems metricEnglish etc
NUMBERS
7726 ms 8000 Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
3075 ms 3000 Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km geosync
6371 km 6400 Mean radius of Earth
6378 km 6400 Equatorial radius of Earth
1738 km 1700 Mean radius of Moon
5974e24 kg 6e24 Mass of Earth
7348e22 kg 7e22 Mass of Moon
1989e30 kg 2e30 Mass of Sun
3986e14 m^3s^2 4e14 Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
4903e12 m^3s^2 5e12 Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
1327e20 m^3s^2 13e19 Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
384401 km 4e5 Mean EarthMoon distance
1496e11 m 15e10 Mean EarthSun distance Astronomical Unit
1 megaton MT TNT about 42e15 J or the energy equivalent of
about 05 kg 50 gm of matter Ref JR Williams The Energy Level
of Things Air Force Special Weapons Center ARDC Kirtland Air
Force Base New Mexico 1963 Also see The Effects of Nuclear
Weapons compiled by S Glasstone and PJ Dolan published by the
US Department of Defense obtain from the GPO
EQUATIONS
Where d is distance v is velocity a is acceleration t is time
Additional more specialized equations are available from
amesarcnasagovpubSPACEFAQMoreEquations
For constant acceleration
d d0 vt 5at^2
v v0 at
v^2 2ad
Acceleration on a cylinder space colony etc of radius r and
rotation period t
a 4 pi2 r t^2
For circular Keplerian orbits where
Vc velocity of a circular orbit
Vesc escape velocity
M Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
G Gravitational constant defined below
u G M can be measured much more accurately than G or M
K G M 2 a
r radius of orbit measured from center of mass of system
V orbital velocity
P orbital period
a semimajor axis of orbit
Vc sqrtM G r
Vesc sqrt2 M G r sqrt2 Vc
V^2 ua
P 2 piSqrtua^3
K 12 V2 G M r conservation of energy
The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
of a circular orbit with the same semimajor axis
Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
circular orbit
delta V 2 sqrtGMr sin phi2
Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit ignores rotational
velocity which reduces the energy a bit
GMm 1Re 12Rcirc
Re radius of the earth
Rcirc radius of the circular orbit
Classical rocket equation where
dv change in velocity
Isp specific impulse of engine
Ve exhaust velocity
x reaction mass
m1 rocket mass excluding reaction mass
g 980665 m s^2
Ve Isp g
dv Ve lnm1 x m1
Ve lnfinal mass initial mass
Relativistic rocket equation constant acceleration
t unaccelerated ca sinhatc
d c2a coshatc 1
v c tanhatc
Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR
atc Vec lnMR or
t unaccelerated ca sinhVec lnMR
d c2a coshVeC lnMR 1
v c tanhVeC lnMR
Converting from parallax to distance
d in parsecs 1 p in arc seconds
d in astronomical units 206265 p
Miscellaneous
fma Force is mass times acceleration
wfd Work energy is force times distance
Atmospheric density varies as expmgzkT where z is altitude m is
molecular weight in kg of air g is local acceleration of gravity T
is temperature k is Bolztmanns constant On Earth up to 100 km
d d0expz142e4
where d is density d0 is density at 0km is approximately true so
d12km 40000 ft d018
d9 km 30000 ft d027
d6 km 20000 ft d043
d3 km 10000 ft d065
Atmospheric scale height Dry lapse rate
in km at emission level Kkm
Earth 75 98
Mars 11 44
Venus 49 105
Titan 18 13
Jupiter 19 20
Saturn 37 07
Uranus 24 07
Neptune 21 08
Triton 8 1
TitiusBode Law for approximating planetary distances
Rn 04 03 2^N Astronomical Units N infinity for
Mercury 0 for Venus 1 for Earth etc
This fits fairly well except for Neptune
CONSTANTS
662618e34 Js 7e34 Plancks Constant h
1054589e34 Js 1e34 Plancks Constant 2 PI h bar
13807e23 JK 14e23 Boltzmanns Constant k
56697e8 Wm^2K 6e8 StephanBoltzmann Constant sigma
6673e11 N m^2kg^2 7e11 Newtons Gravitational Constant G
00029 m K 3e3 Wiens Constant sigmaW
3827e26 W 4e26 Luminosity of Sun
1370 W m^2 1400 Solar Constant intensity at 1 AU
696e8 m 7e8 radius of Sun
1738 km 2e3 radius of Moon
299792458 ms 3e8 speed of light in vacuum c
946053e15 m 1e16 light year
206264806 AU 2e5 \
32616 light years 3 parsec
30856e16 m 3e16
Black Hole radius also called Schwarzschild Radius
2GMc^2 where G is Newtons Grav Constant M is mass of BH
c is speed of light
Things to add somebody look them up
Basic rocketry numbers equations
Aerodynamical stuff
Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
velocities
Noncircular cases
NEXT FAQ 715 Astronomical Mnemonics
preprocess doc From: bcash@crchh410.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Brian Cash)
Subject: Re: New Member
Nntp-Posting-Host: crchh410
Organization: BNR, Inc.
Lines: 47
In article <C5HIEw.7s1@portal.hq.videocart.com>, dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
|> Hello. I just started reading this group today, and I think I am going
|> to be a large participant in its daily postings. I liked the section of
|> the FAQ about constructing logical arguments - well done. I am an atheist,
|> but I do not try to turn other people into atheists. I only try to figure
|> why people believe the way they do - I don't much care if they have a
|> different view than I do. When it comes down to it . . . I could be wrong.
|> I am willing to admit the possibility - something religious followers
|> dont seem to have the capability to do.
Welcome aboard!
|>
|> I notice alot of posts from Bobby. Why does anybody ever respond to
|> his posts ? He always falls back on the same argument:
(I think you just answered your own question, there)
|>
|> "If the religion is followed it will cause no bad"
|>
|> He is right. Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
|> done "in the name of religion", does not mean that it actually followed
|> the religion. He will always point to the "ideal" and say that it wasn't
|> followed so it can't be the reason for the event. There really is no way
|> to argue with him, so why bother. Sure, you may get upset because his
|> answer is blind and not supported factually - but he will win every time
|> with his little argument. I don't think there will be any postings from
|> me in direct response to one of his.
Most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that
all atheists are fools/evil for not seeing how peachy Islam is.
I would leave the pro/con arguments of Islam to Fred Rice, who is more
level headed and seems to know more on the subject, anyway.
|>
|> Happy to be aboard !
How did you know I was going to welcome you abord?!?
|>
|> Dave Fuller
|> dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com
|>
|>
Brian /-|-\
after prepro From bcashcrchh410NoSubdomainNoDomain Brian Cash
Subject Re New Member
NntpPostingHost crchh410
Organization BNR Inc
Lines 47
In article dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
Hello I just started reading this group today and I think I am going
to be a large participant in its daily postings I liked the section of
the FAQ about constructing logical arguments well done I am an atheist
but I do not try to turn other people into atheists I only try to figure
why people believe the way they do I dont much care if they have a
different view than I do When it comes down to it I could be wrong
I am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers
dont seem to have the capability to do
Welcome aboard
I notice alot of posts from Bobby Why does anybody ever respond to
his posts He always falls back on the same argument
I think you just answered your own question there
If the religion is followed it will cause no bad
He is right Just because an event was explained by a human to have been
done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed
the religion He will always point to the ideal and say that it wasnt
followed so it cant be the reason for the event There really is no way
to argue with him so why bother Sure you may get upset because his
answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time
with his little argument I dont think there will be any postings from
me in direct response to one of his
Most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that
all atheists are foolsevil for not seeing how peachy Islam is
I would leave the procon arguments of Islam to Fred Rice who is more
level headed and seems to know more on the subject anyway
Happy to be aboard
How did you know I was going to welcome you abord
Dave Fuller
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom
Brian \
preprocess doc From: gwh@soda.berkeley.edu (George William Herbert)
Subject: Re: Moonbase race
Organization: Retro Aerospace
Lines: 14
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu
Summary: Hmm...
Hmm. $1 billion, lesse... I can probably launch 100 tons to LEO at
$200 million, in five years, which gives about 20 tons to the lunar
surface one-way. Say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its
fuel, a bigger Mercury or something (might get that as low as two
tons), leaving fifteen tons for a one-man habitat and a year's supplies?
Gee, with that sort of mass margins I can build the systems off
the shelf for about another hundred million tops. That leaves
about $700 million profit. I like this idea 8-) Let's see
if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8-) 8-)
[slightly seriously]
-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
after prepro From gwhsodaberkeleyedu George William Herbert
Subject Re Moonbase race
Organization Retro Aerospace
Lines 14
NNTPPostingHost sodaberkeleyedu
Summary Hmm
Hmm 1 billion lesse I can probably launch 100 tons to LEO at
200 million in five years which gives about 20 tons to the lunar
surface oneway Say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its
fuel a bigger Mercury or something might get that as low as two
tons leaving fifteen tons for a oneman habitat and a years supplies
Gee with that sort of mass margins I can build the systems off
the shelf for about another hundred million tops That leaves
about 700 million profit I like this idea 8 Lets see
if you guys can push someone to make it happen 8 8
[slightly seriously]
george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 10
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <STEINLY.93Apr20160116@topaz.ucsc.edu>, steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method :-)
Sherzer Methodology!!!!!!
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject Re Commercial mining activities on the moon
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 10
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article steinlytopazucscedu Steinn Sigurdsson writes
Very cost effective if you use the right accounting method
Sherzer Methodology
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: kjenks@jsc.nasa.gov (Ken Jenks [NASA])
Subject: Re: Space Station Redesign, JSC Alternative #4
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office From: kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Lines: 40
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (Hey, that's me!) wrote:
: I have 19 (2 MB worth!) uuencode'd GIF images contain charts outlining
: one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
: Crystal City. [...]
I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server ics.uci.edu.
You can retrieve them from:
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode01.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode02.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode03.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode04.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode05.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode06.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode07.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode08.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode09.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode10.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode11.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode12.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode13.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode14.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode15.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode16.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geode17.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeA.gif
ics.uci.edu:incoming/geodeB.gif
The last two are scanned color photos; the others are scanned briefing
charts.
These will be deleted by the ics.uci.edu system manager in a few days,
so now's the time to grab them if you're interested. Sorry it took
me so long to get these out, but I was trying for the Ames server,
but it's out of space.
-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenks@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov (713) 483-4368
"The earth is the cradle of humanity, but mankind will not stay in
the cradle forever." -- Konstantin Tsiolkvosky
after prepro From kjenksjscnasagov Ken Jenks [NASA]
Subject Re Space Station Redesign JSC Alternative 4
Organization NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office From kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL8]
Lines 40
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov Hey thats me wrote
I have 19 2 MB worth uuencoded GIF images contain charts outlining
one of the many alternative Space Station designs being considered in
Crystal City []
I just posted the GIF files out for anonymous FTP on server icsuciedu
You can retrieve them from
icsucieduincominggeode01gif
icsucieduincominggeode02gif
icsucieduincominggeode03gif
icsucieduincominggeode04gif
icsucieduincominggeode05gif
icsucieduincominggeode06gif
icsucieduincominggeode07gif
icsucieduincominggeode08gif
icsucieduincominggeode09gif
icsucieduincominggeode10gif
icsucieduincominggeode11gif
icsucieduincominggeode12gif
icsucieduincominggeode13gif
icsucieduincominggeode14gif
icsucieduincominggeode15gif
icsucieduincominggeode16gif
icsucieduincominggeode17gif
icsucieduincominggeodeAgif
icsucieduincominggeodeBgif
The last two are scanned color photos the others are scanned briefing
charts
These will be deleted by the icsuciedu system manager in a few days
so nows the time to grab them if youre interested Sorry it took
me so long to get these out but I was trying for the Ames server
but its out of space
Ken Jenks NASAJSCGM2 Space Shuttle Program Office
kjenksgothamcityjscnasagov 713 4834368
The earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in
the cradle forever Konstantin Tsiolkvosky
preprocess doc From: nicho@vnet.IBM.COM (Greg Stewart-Nicholls)
Subject: Re: Biosphere II
Reply-To: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: UReply 3.1
X-X-From: nicho@vnet.ibm.com
<1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net>
Lines: 10
In <1q77ku$av6@access.digex.net> Pat writes:
>The Work is privately funded, the DATA belongs to SBV. I don't see
>either george or Fred, scoriating IBM research division for
>not releasing data.
We publish plenty kiddo,you just have to look.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
.sig files are like strings ... every yo-yo's got one.
Greg Nicholls ... nicho@vnet.ibm.com (business) or
nicho@olympus.demon.co.uk (private)
after prepro From nichovnetIBMCOM Greg StewartNicholls
Subject Re Biosphere II
ReplyTo nichovnetibmcom
Disclaimer This posting represents the posters views not those of IBM
NewsSoftware UReply 31
XXFrom nichovnetibmcom
1q77kuav6accessdigexnet
Lines 10
In 1q77kuav6accessdigexnet Pat writes
The Work is privately funded the DATA belongs to SBV I dont see
either george or Fred scoriating IBM research division for
not releasing data
We publish plenty kiddoyou just have to look
sig files are like strings every yoyos got one
Greg Nicholls nichovnetibmcom business or
nichoolympusdemoncouk private
preprocess doc From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: Guns for Space
Keywords: Sopa Gun, Space Launcer
Organization: Boeing AI Center, Huntsville, AL
Lines: 72
Okay, lets get the record straight on the Livermore gas gun.
The project manager is Dr. John Hunter, and he works for the
Laser group at Livermore. What, you may ask, does gas guns
have to do with lasers? Nothing, really, but the gun is physically
located across the road from the Free Electron Laser building,
and the FEL building has a heavily shielded control room (thick walls)
from which the gun firings are controlled. So I suspect that the
office he works for is an administrative convenience.
I visited Hunter at the beginning of Feb. and we toured the gun.
At the time I was working on gas gun R&D at Boeing, where I work,
but I am now doing other things (helping to save the space station),
The gun uses a methane-air mixture, which is burned in a chamber
about 200 ft long by 16 inch ID (i.e. it looks like a pipe).
The chamber holds a 1 ton piston which is propelled at several
hundred m/s down the chamber. On the other side of the piston
is hudrogen gas, initially at room temperature andsome tens
of atmospheres.
The piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until
a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures, at around 50,000 psi.
The barrel of the gun is about 100 feet long and has a 4 inch
bore. It is mounted at right angles to the chamber (i.e. they
intersect). This was done so that in the future, the barrel
could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to
move the larger and heavier chamber. The projectile being used
in testing is a 5 kg cylinder of Lexan plastic, 4 in in diameter
and about 50 cm long.
All of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen
gas from 50,000 psi downwards until the projectile leaves the
barrel. The barrel is evacuated, and the end is sealed with a
sheet of plastic film (a little thicker than Saran wrap). The
plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped
in the barrel ahead of the projectile.
The gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic
water jugs. In the early testing fragments of the plastic
projectile were found. At the higher speeds in later testing,
the projectile vaporizes.
The testing is into a bunker because the Livermore test range is
about 3 miles across, and the projectile would go 100-200 km
if fired for maximum range. The intent is to move the whole gun
to Vandenberg AFB after the testing is complete, where they can
fire into the Pacific Ocean, and use the tracking radar at VAFB
to follow the projectiles.
The design goal of the gun is to throw a 5 kg projectile at 4
km/s (half of orbital speed). So far they have reached 2 km/s,
and the gun is currently down for repairs, as on the last test
they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware (I think it
had to do with the methane-air more detonating than burning, but
I haven't had a chance to talk to Hunter directly on this).
There are people waiting to test scramjet components in this
gun by firing then out of the gun into the air (at Mach 12=
4 km/s), since the most you can get in wind tunnels is Mach 8.
This gun cost about 4 million to develop, and is basically
a proof-of-concept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful-
sized payloads into space. This would require on the order of
100 kg projectiles, which deliver on the order of 20 kg
useful payload to orbit.
Dani Eder
--
Dani Eder/Meridian Investment Company/(205)464-2697(w)/232-7467(h)/
Rt.1, Box 188-2, Athens AL 35611/Location: 34deg 37' N 86deg 43' W +100m alt.
after prepro From ederhsvaicboeingcom Dani Eder
Subject Re Guns for Space
Keywords Sopa Gun Space Launcer
Organization Boeing AI Center Huntsville AL
Lines 72
Okay lets get the record straight on the Livermore gas gun
The project manager is Dr John Hunter and he works for the
Laser group at Livermore What you may ask does gas guns
have to do with lasers Nothing really but the gun is physically
located across the road from the Free Electron Laser building
and the FEL building has a heavily shielded control room thick walls
from which the gun firings are controlled So I suspect that the
office he works for is an administrative convenience
I visited Hunter at the beginning of Feb and we toured the gun
At the time I was working on gas gun RD at Boeing where I work
but I am now doing other things helping to save the space station
The gun uses a methaneair mixture which is burned in a chamber
about 200 ft long by 16 inch ID ie it looks like a pipe
The chamber holds a 1 ton piston which is propelled at several
hundred ms down the chamber On the other side of the piston
is hudrogen gas initially at room temperature andsome tens
of atmospheres
The piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until
a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures at around 50000 psi
The barrel of the gun is about 100 feet long and has a 4 inch
bore It is mounted at right angles to the chamber ie they
intersect This was done so that in the future the barrel
could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to
move the larger and heavier chamber The projectile being used
in testing is a 5 kg cylinder of Lexan plastic 4 in in diameter
and about 50 cm long
All of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen
gas from 50000 psi downwards until the projectile leaves the
barrel The barrel is evacuated and the end is sealed with a
sheet of plastic film a little thicker than Saran wrap The
plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped
in the barrel ahead of the projectile
The gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic
water jugs In the early testing fragments of the plastic
projectile were found At the higher speeds in later testing
the projectile vaporizes
The testing is into a bunker because the Livermore test range is
about 3 miles across and the projectile would go 100200 km
if fired for maximum range The intent is to move the whole gun
to Vandenberg AFB after the testing is complete where they can
fire into the Pacific Ocean and use the tracking radar at VAFB
to follow the projectiles
The design goal of the gun is to throw a 5 kg projectile at 4
kms half of orbital speed So far they have reached 2 kms
and the gun is currently down for repairs as on the last test
they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware I think it
had to do with the methaneair more detonating than burning but
I havent had a chance to talk to Hunter directly on this
There are people waiting to test scramjet components in this
gun by firing then out of the gun into the air at Mach 12
4 kms since the most you can get in wind tunnels is Mach 8
This gun cost about 4 million to develop and is basically
a proofofconcept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful
sized payloads into space This would require on the order of
100 kg projectiles which deliver on the order of 20 kg
useful payload to orbit
Dani Eder
Dani EderMeridian Investment Company2054642697w2327467h
Rt1 Box 1882 Athens AL 35611Location 34deg 37 N 86deg 43 W 100m alt
preprocess doc From: bill@xpresso.UUCP (Bill Vance)
Subject: TRUE "GLOBE", Who makes it?
Organization: (N.) To be organized. But that's not important right now.....
Lines: 11
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globular/spherical. Does anyone make a "globe" that is accurate
as to actual shape, landmass configuration/Long/Lat lines etc.?
Thanks in advance.
--
bill@xpresso.UUCP (Bill Vance), Bothell, WA
rwing!xpresso!bill
You listen when I xpresso, I listen When uuxpresso.......:-)
after prepro From billxpressoUUCP Bill Vance
Subject TRUE GLOBE Who makes it
Organization N To be organized But thats not important right now
Lines 11
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL9]
It has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear
shaped than globularspherical Does anyone make a globe that is accurate
as to actual shape landmass configurationLongLat lines etc
Thanks in advance
billxpressoUUCP Bill Vance Bothell WA
rwingxpressobill
You listen when I xpresso I listen When uuxpresso
from sklearn.feature_extraction.text import TfidfVectorizer
def identity_tokenizer(text):
return text
tfidf_vec = TfidfVectorizer(lowercase=False, tokenizer=identity_tokenizer, stop_words=None)
from sklearn.pipeline import Pipeline
X_feat = tfidf_vec.fit_transform(X_prepro)
X_feat
<1073x25528 sparse matrix of type '<class 'numpy.float64'>' with 147153 stored elements in Compressed Sparse Row format>
pipe = Pipeline([
('prepro', peprocessor()),
('tfidf', tfidf_vec),
('clf', LinearSVC(class_weight = 'balanced', random_state=42))
])
pipe.fit(X[:5], y[:5])
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18
Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
:
: >> Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory?
:
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
:
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.
When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18
Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
Please enlighten me How is omnipotence contradictory
By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
the rules of nature
Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules
When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question
Bill
preprocess doc From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29
In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
(Ron Baalke) writes:
>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
> MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
> April 16, 1993
>
>
>2. Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?
>4. On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??
BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)
ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|
after prepro From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update 041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29
In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 16 1993
2 Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it
4 On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on
BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding
ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
JHWITTENCSRUUNL
Jurriaan Wittenberg Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
>>of a private Titan pad?
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development. If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans. It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.
Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins.
Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.
You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun. And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO.
Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment? I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway
Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness
Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins
Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of reward for
You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun And working out the
bugs of assembly integration in LEO
Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?
No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.
>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet?
>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28
msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
No I estimate a 99 probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Information We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet
This article is in the public domain
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
> Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
>
> You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.
Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities! I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn! They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)
> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
Nice attempt Chris verrry close
You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what
happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it I
have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus
Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do
Dave Buckminster Fuller
How is that one o keeper of the nicknames
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh
Pipeline(steps=[('prepro', peprocessor()),
('tfidf',
TfidfVectorizer(lowercase=False,
tokenizer=<function identity_tokenizer at 0x7f7f1cb20710>)),
('clf', LinearSVC(class_weight='balanced', random_state=42))])
Skip validation set performance evaluation. Short check on training data only for functionality test.
pipe.predict(X[:5])
preprocess doc From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Not the Omni!
Nntp-Posting-Host: okcforum.osrhe.edu
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Lines: 18
Charley Wingate (mangoe@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
:
: >> Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory?
:
: >By definition, all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
: >of nature. Thus god cannot break them. Anything that god does must be allowed
: >in the rules somewhere. Therefore, omnipotence CANNOT exist! It contradicts
: >the rules of nature.
:
: Obviously, an omnipotent god can change the rules.
When you say, "By definition", what exactly is being defined;
certainly not omnipotence. You seem to be saying that the "rules of
nature" are pre-existant somehow, that they not only define nature but
actually cause it. If that's what you mean I'd like to hear your
further thoughts on the question.
Bill
after prepro From bilokcforumosrheedu Bill Conner
Subject Re Not the Omni
NntpPostingHost okcforumosrheedu
Organization Okcforum Unix Users Group
XNewsreader TIN [version 11 PL6]
Lines 18
Charley Wingate mangoecsumdedu wrote
Please enlighten me How is omnipotence contradictory
By definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules
of nature Thus god cannot break them Anything that god does must be allowed
in the rules somewhere Therefore omnipotence CANNOT exist It contradicts
the rules of nature
Obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules
When you say By definition what exactly is being defined
certainly not omnipotence You seem to be saying that the rules of
nature are preexistant somehow that they not only define nature but
actually cause it If thats what you mean Id like to hear your
further thoughts on the question
Bill
preprocess doc From: jhwitten@cs.ruu.nl (Jurriaan Wittenberg)
Subject: Re: Magellan Update - 04/16/93
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: Magellan, JPL
Lines: 29
In <19APR199320262420@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
(Ron Baalke) writes:
>Forwarded from Doug Griffith, Magellan Project Manager
>
> MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
> April 16, 1993
>
>
>2. Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
>the end of Cycle-4 and the start of the Transition Experiment.
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment. What is it?
>4. On Monday morning, April 19, the moon will occult Venus and
>interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes.
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on ??
BTW: When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan?? Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious. I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment (or rather _NO_ funding :-)
ok that's it for now. See you guys around,
Jurriaan.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
|----=|=-<- - - - - - JHWITTEN@CS.RUU.NL- - - - - - - - - - - - ->-=|=----|
|----=|=-<-Jurriaan Wittenberg- - -Department of ComputerScience->-=|=----|
|____/|\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________/|\____|
after prepro From jhwittencsruunl Jurriaan Wittenberg
Subject Re Magellan Update 041693
Organization Utrecht University Dept of Computer Science
Keywords Magellan JPL
Lines 29
In 19APR199320262420kelvinjplnasagov baalkekelvinjplnasagov
Ron Baalke writes
Forwarded from Doug Griffith Magellan Project Manager
MAGELLAN STATUS REPORT
April 16 1993
2 Magellan has completed 7225 orbits of Venus and is now 39 days from
the end of Cycle4 and the start of the Transition Experiment
Sorry I think I missed a bit of info on this Transition Experiment What is it
4 On Monday morning April 19 the moon will occult Venus and
interrupt the tracking of Magellan for about 68 minutes
Will this mean a loss of data or will the Magellan transmit data later on
BTW When will NASA cut off the connection with Magellan Not that I am
looking forward to that day but I am just curious I believe it had something
to do with the funding from the goverment or rather _NO_ funding
ok thats it for now See you guys around
Jurriaan
JHWITTENCSRUUNL
Jurriaan Wittenberg Department of ComputerScience
____\_________Utrecht_________________The Netherlands___________\____
preprocess doc From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: I want that Billion
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Lines: 37
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: queen.eng.umd.edu
In article <C5x86o.8p4@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1r6rn3INNn96@mojo.eng.umd.edu> sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu writes:
>>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff. Do you know
>>of a private Titan pad?
>
>You'd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff *if* you assume
>no new launcher development. If you assume new launcher development, with
>lower costs as a specific objective, then you probably don't want to
>build something HLV-sized anyway.
>
>Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans. It
>doesn't take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
>gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster, all of which
>would have far better cost-effectiveness.
Henry, I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins.
Ohhh, you want to put in FINE PRINT which says "Thou shall do wonderous R&D
rather than use off-the-shelf hardware"? Sorry, didn't see that in my copy.
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of <some dollar
amount> reward for <some simple goal>.
You go ahead and do your development, I'll buy off the shelf at higher cost (or
even Russian; but I also assume that there'd be some "Buy US" provos in there)
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
itty-bitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun. And working out the
bugs of assembly & integration in LEO.
Oh, hey, could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment? I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while I'm up there...
Software engineering? That's like military intelligence, isn't it?
-- > SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU < --
after prepro From sysmgrkingengumdedu Doug Mohney
Subject I want that Billion
Organization Computer Aided Design Lab U of Maryland College Park
Lines 37
ReplyTo sysmgrkingengumdedu
NNTPPostingHost queenengumdedu
In article henryzootorontoedu Henry Spencer writes
In article 1r6rn3INNn96mojoengumdedu sysmgrkingengumdedu writes
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff Do you know
of a private Titan pad
Youd need to launch HLVs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume
no new launcher development If you assume new launcher development with
lower costs as a specific objective then you probably dont want to
build something HLVsized anyway
Nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy Titans It
doesnt take many Titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large
gas gun or a development program for a Big Dumb Booster all of which
would have far better costeffectiveness
Henry I made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest
wins
Ohhh you want to put in FINE PRINT which says Thou shall do wonderous RD
rather than use offtheshelf hardware Sorry didnt see that in my copy
Most of the Pournellesque proposals run along the lines of reward for
You go ahead and do your development Ill buy off the shelf at higher cost or
even Russian but I also assume that thered be some Buy US provos in there
and be camped out in the Moon while you are launching and assembling little
ittybitty payloads in LEO with your laser or gas gun And working out the
bugs of assembly integration in LEO
Oh hey could I get a couple of CanadARMs tuned for the lunar environment I
wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while Im up there
Software engineering Thats like military intelligence isnt it
SYSMGRCADLABENGUMDEDU
preprocess doc From: pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering)
Subject: Re: Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines: 28
msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>Thanks again. One final question. The name Gehrels wasn't known to
>me before this thread came up, but the May issue of Scientific American
>has an article about the "Inconstant Cosmos", with a photo of Neil
>Gehrels, project scientist for NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory.
>Same person?
No. I estimate a 99 % probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project, Kitt Peak observatory.
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory, but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done.
>Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto "Information! ... We want information!"
>utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet?
>This article is in the public domain.
--
Phil Fraering |"Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff.
pgf@srl02.cacs.usl.edu|Like how the ancient Mayans had televison." Repo Man
after prepro From pgfsrl03cacsusledu Phil G Fraering
Subject Re Comet in Temporary Orbit Around Jupiter
Organization Univ of Southwestern Louisiana
Lines 28
msbsqsqcom Mark Brader writes
Thanks again One final question The name Gehrels wasnt known to
me before this thread came up but the May issue of Scientific American
has an article about the Inconstant Cosmos with a photo of Neil
Gehrels project scientist for NASAs Compton Gamma Ray Observatory
Same person
No I estimate a 99 probability the Gehrels referred to
is Thomas Gehrels of the Spacewatch project Kitt Peak observatory
Maybe in the 24th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on
distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the
primitive 20th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray
spectroscopy done
Mark Brader SoftQuad Inc Toronto Information We want information
utzoosqmsb msbsqcom The Prisoner
You have the info on Mayan Television yet
This article is in the public domain
Phil Fraering Seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff
pgfsrl02cacsusleduLike how the ancient Mayans had televison Repo Man
preprocess doc From: Nanci Ann Miller <nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: It's all Mary's fault!
Organization: Sponsored account, School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 28
<C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <C5KEqu.4xo@portal.hq.videocart.com>
dfuller@portal.hq.videocart.com (Dave Fuller) writes:
> Nice attempt Chris . . . verrry close.
>
> You missed the conspiracy by 1 step. Joseph knew who knocked her up.
> He couldn't let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol' Mary prego. That
> wouldn't do well for his popularity in the local circles. So what
> happened is that she was feeling guilty, he was feeling embarrassed, and
> THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
> been the downfall for both. Clever indeed. Come to think of it . . . I
> have gained a new respect for the couple. Maybe Joseph and Mary should
> receive all of the praise being paid to jesus.
Lucky for them that the baby didn't have any obvious deformities! I could
just see it now: Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed, or even worse, stillborn! They'd have a lot of
explaining to do.... :-)
> Dave "Buckminster" Fuller
> How is that one 'o keeper of the nicknames ?
Nanci
.........................................................................
If you know (and are SURE of) the author of this quote, please send me
email (nm0w+@andrew.cmu.edu):
Life does not cease to be funny when people die, any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh.
after prepro From Nanci Ann Miller
Subject Re Its all Marys fault
Organization Sponsored account School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon Pittsburgh PA
Lines 28
NNTPPostingHost po5andrewcmuedu
InReplyTo
dfullerportalhqvideocartcom Dave Fuller writes
Nice attempt Chris verrry close
You missed the conspiracy by 1 step Joseph knew who knocked her up
He couldnt let it be known that somebody ELSE got ol Mary prego That
wouldnt do well for his popularity in the local circles So what
happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and
THEY decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise
been the downfall for both Clever indeed Come to think of it I
have gained a new respect for the couple Maybe Joseph and Mary should
receive all of the praise being paid to jesus
Lucky for them that the baby didnt have any obvious deformities I could
just see it now Mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and
Joseph say that it was God that got her pregnant and then the baby turns
out to be deformed or even worse stillborn Theyd have a lot of
explaining to do
Dave Buckminster Fuller
How is that one o keeper of the nicknames
Nanci
If you know and are SURE of the author of this quote please send me
email nm0wandrewcmuedu
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to
be serious when people laugh
array([0, 1, 1, 1, 0])
Use custom pyfunc implementation due to the nltk dependency
from mlflow.models.signature import ModelSignature
from mlflow.types.schema import Schema, ColSpec
import mlflow
input_example = {
"text": "Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory",
}
input_schema = Schema([
ColSpec("string", "text")
])
output_schema = Schema([ColSpec("string")])
signature = ModelSignature(inputs=input_schema, outputs=output_schema)
signature
inputs: ['text': string] outputs: [string]
test_text = ["Please enlighten me. How is omnipotence contradictory"]
# ! rm -rf tests/classifier
# mlflow.sklearn.save_model(
# pipe,
# path = "tests/classifier", # save local
# conda_env="environment_model.yml",
# #mlflow_model=None,
# #serialization_format='cloudpickle',
# signature = signature,
# input_example = input_example,
# pip_requirements=None, extra_pip_requirements=None)
#local_model = mlflow.sklearn.load_model("classifier")
#local_model.predict(test_text)
mlflow.set_tracking_uri("http://localhost:8088")
experiment_name = "document_classifier"
#mlflow.create_experiment(experiment_name)
mlflow.set_experiment(experiment_name)
experiment = mlflow.get_experiment_by_name(experiment_name)
mlflow.start_run(experiment_id=experiment.experiment_id, run_name="baseline3")
<ActiveRun: >
mlflow.sklearn.log_model(
pipe,
artifact_path="model",
conda_env="environment_model.yml",
#serialization_format='cloudpickle',
registered_model_name=None,
signature= signature,
input_example= input_example)
#await_registration_for=300,
#pip_requirements=None,
#extra_pip_requirements=None)
!jupyter nbconvert --to html NLP_Classifier.ipynb
mlflow.log_artifact("NLP_Classifier.ipynb")
mlflow.log_artifact("NLP_Classifier.html")
mlflow.end_run()